PDA

View Full Version : The "Flesh" in Romans 7 and a discussion of the "sinful nature"



themuzicman
November 13th, 2015, 08:25 AM
7:1 Do you not know, brothers and sisters—for I am speaking to those who know the law—that the law has authority over someone only as long as that person lives? 2 For example, by law a married woman is bound to her husband as long as he is alive, but if her husband dies, she is released from the law that binds her to him. 3 So then, if she has sexual relations with another man while her husband is still alive, she is called an adulteress. But if her husband dies, she is released from that law and is not an adulteress if she marries another man.

4 So, my brothers and sisters, you also died to the law through the body of Christ, that you might belong to another, to him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit for God. 5 For when we were in the realm of the flesh, the sinful passions aroused by the law were at work in us, so that we bore fruit for death. 6 But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code.

First, we have to take note that this is for any who are under the law. We might interpret this to be referring to the Jews, but we could also look at Romans 2 and that all are under the law in one way or another.

Second, if we look carefully at verse 5, we find that is isn't the flesh that causes sin, but rather the flesh when exposed to law aroused sinful passions. It would seem that Paul isn't making the case that the flesh itself is inherently corrupted, but rather that the flesh is corrupted by the presence of law.

If we go back to verse 4, we see that dying is the key to being released from the law, just as in verse 6, when we live according to the Spirit, we are released from what corrupts the flesh.

And if we keep reading, we see the same ideas:


7 What shall we say, then? Is the law sinful? Certainly not! Nevertheless, I would not have known what sin was had it not been for the law. For I would not have known what coveting really was if the law had not said, “You shall not covet.” 8 But sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, produced in me every kind of coveting. For apart from the law, sin was dead.

Notice that it is the presence of the law that creates the atmosphere of sin.


9 Once I was alive apart from the law; but when the commandment came, sin sprang to life and I died.

Notice that Paul was once alive apart from the law. But then the presence of law came, and then the flesh was corrupted with sinful passions.

Yes, this flesh, this human nature is passed from person to person by birth, but the presence of law is continuous, and when one becomes aware of law, then sinful passions come.

This is how Paul can state that all die because we sinned, even though law (and as a result death) entered the world through Adam.


15 I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. 16 And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. 17 As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. 18 For I know that good itself does not dwell in me, that is, in my sinful nature.[c] For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. 19 For I do not do the good I want to do, but the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing. 20 Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.

Once we understand this idea that it is flesh plus law that brings corruption, we can better understand this passage, where we do desire to do good, but the combination of flesh and law brings sinful passions, and we sin.

And from these things, we have the corruption of the mind in adopting the patterns of the world.

This is why, in Romans 12, Paul instructs us:


12:1 Therefore, I urge you, brothers and sisters, in view of God’s mercy, to offer your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and pleasing to God—this is your true and proper worship. 2 Do not conform to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God’s will is—his good, pleasing and perfect will.

Faith in Christ should result in the renewing of our minds, as Christ has freed us from the law which brings sin through His death. (Which is one reason Christ had to die for us, so we could be free from the law, see Romans 6.)

So, the nature of the human being isn't corrupted in the sense that it needs to be repaired, but rather it is corrupted because of the presence of law, and the presences of law and the resulting sinful passions created worldly and sinful patterns in our minds. Thus, the solution is for Christ to die, not only so we can be justified before God, but as a corollary, we become dead to the law, and once we are free from the law, to renew our minds to conform to God's ways, and as we are freed from the law and become Christ like, the flesh is freed from the corruption of the law.

So, there is "original sin" in the sense that sin brought law, and the flesh is corrupted by the presence of law, but when the law is removed, the flesh is no longer corrupt, even though our minds must still be renewed.

Nick M
November 13th, 2015, 09:01 AM
Second, if we look carefully at verse 5, we find that is isn't the flesh that causes sin, but rather the flesh when exposed to law aroused sinful passions. It would seem that Paul isn't making the case that the flesh itself is inherently corrupted, but rather that the flesh is corrupted by the presence of law.

So, the nature of the human being isn't corrupted in the sense that it needs to be repaired, but rather it is corrupted because of the presence of law, and the presences of law and the resulting sinful passions created worldly and sinful patterns in our minds. Thus, the solution is for Christ to die, not only so we can be justified before God, but as a corollary, we become dead to the law, and once we are free from the law, to renew our minds to conform to God's ways, and as we are freed from the law and become Christ like, the flesh is freed from the corruption of the law.




Not bad. You have some valid points. On the contrary the flesh is dead because of sin, and when righteousness is the objective, the flesh is not to be regarded. Not even the Lord Jesus Christ and his perfection in the flesh. We do not become like Christ in the flesh. We are not to regard the flesh which does nothing but sin.

themuzicman
November 13th, 2015, 11:57 AM
Not bad. You have some valid points. On the contrary the flesh is dead because of sin, and when righteousness is the objective, the flesh is not to be regarded. Not even the Lord Jesus Christ and his perfection in the flesh. We do not become like Christ in the flesh. We are not to regard the flesh which does nothing but sin.

A couple of minor issues, here.

First, I don't recall where the test says that the flesh is dead because of sin. Scripture uses "death" as a metaphor for being under eternal judgment, which is true, and because we have sinned, we cannot be saved on account of our own righteousness, that's also true, and thus cannot be regarded with respect to justification.

Second, if you read Romans 2:14-16, you'll find that those who are without the law still do things of the law. This is so that they show the things of the law are written on their hearts, and this becomes the basis of judgment against them.

Unless you're going to say that doing things of the law is sinful (and Romans 7 makes it clear that the law is NOT sin), then we have to say that everyone is not only capable of doing things that aren't sin, but MUST do things that are not sin, so as to establish a basis for judgment against them.

Nick M
November 13th, 2015, 12:34 PM
First, I don't recall where the test says that the flesh is dead because of sin.

Paul says the body is dead because of sin. He is not referring to the Body of Christ of which the saints belong.


Scripture uses "death" as a metaphor for being under eternal judgment, which is true, and because we have sinned, we cannot be saved on account of our own righteousness, that's also true, and thus cannot be regarded with respect to justification.

I don't disagree. We are not to regard the flesh. He emphasized those points to Corinthians and Galatians, especially the Galatians who wanted to boast in the performance of the flesh.


Second, if you read Romans 2:14-16, you'll find that those who are without the law still do things of the law. This is so that they show the things of the law are written on their hearts, and this becomes the basis of judgment against them.

I don't disagree.


Unless you're going to say that doing things of the law is sinful (and Romans 7 makes it clear that the law is NOT sin), then we have to say that everyone is not only capable of doing things that aren't sin, but MUST do things that are not sin, so as to establish a basis for judgment against them.

Keeping the law to satisfy the flesh is sinful. I am not connecting the same dots you are in the last point. Walking according the flesh is trying to keep the law. Walking according to the Spirit is knowing you cannot keep the law. Many see keeping the law, like feeding the hungry, as walking in the Spirit. It isn't.

Ben Masada
November 13th, 2015, 12:36 PM
No wonder Paul was not embarrassed to serve sin in his flesh as he declared in Rom. 7:25. It had become a sinful part of his nature as a result of his style of life as a Hellenist. If you want to know what I mean, see that last movie about "Alexander." I wonder why our Government prohibitted it from being shown in our theaters.

daqq
November 13th, 2015, 01:49 PM
No wonder Paul was not embarrassed to serve sin in his flesh as he declared in Rom. 7:25. It had become a sinful part of his nature as a result of his style of life as a Hellenist. If you want to know what I mean, see that last movie about "Alexander." I wonder why our Government prohibitted it from being shown in our theaters.

That is not what Paul says at all but rather that he still serves both "laws", that is, with the mind he serves the Torah of Elohim, (which is mount Horeb) but as for "the flesh" the Torah concerning sin, (and death) which is mount Sinai. You might think they are two different names for the same mountain but they are more than that, like two different states of being. This is an example of "Torah of/against sin" concerning the flesh: "MORTIFY your "members" which are upon the earth", (your own "earth" because every man is "the Land" since the first man Adam was formed of dust from the adamah). Here is another example: "MORTIFY the deeds of the body." Here is another example from Yeshua himself: "If your right hand offends you, cut it off, and cast it from you." It is symbolic and metaphoric language for cutting off sin from yourself and Torah of Sinai, ("of below") is used for this purpose just as Paul emplies in Romans 7:25.

themuzicman
November 13th, 2015, 01:54 PM
Paul says the body is dead because of sin. He is not referring to the Body of Christ of which the saints belong.


No, he's referring to the physical body, which must die before resurrection can occur


Keeping the law to satisfy the flesh is sinful.

Keeping the law is never sinful, as the law is not sin. If you want to say that one cannot satisfy the sinful passions and keep the law, that's fine, but that doesn't fulfill the requirements of Romans 2:14-16.


I am not connecting the same dots you are in the last point. Walking according the flesh is trying to keep the law. Walking according to the Spirit is knowing you cannot keep the law. Many see keeping the law, like feeding the hungry, as walking in the Spirit. It isn't.

And the point is that you cannot be sinless by walking according to the flesh, because the law brings sinful passions. That doesn't mean that one sins every time one acts when in the flesh.

One can do some acts that aren't sin and still not be justified. In fact, it is those acts that aren't sin that are the basis for judging sinful acts for those without the law, again Romans 2:14-16.

Totton Linnet
November 13th, 2015, 02:46 PM
First, we have to take note that this is for any who are under the law. We might interpret this to be referring to the Jews, but we could also look at Romans 2 and that all are under the law in one way or another.

Second, if we look carefully at verse 5, we find that is isn't the flesh that causes sin, but rather the flesh when exposed to law aroused sinful passions. It would seem that Paul isn't making the case that the flesh itself is inherently corrupted, but rather that the flesh is corrupted by the presence of law.

If we go back to verse 4, we see that dying is the key to being released from the law, just as in verse 6, when we live according to the Spirit, we are released from what corrupts the flesh.

And if we keep reading, we see the same ideas:



Notice that it is the presence of the law that creates the atmosphere of sin.



Notice that Paul was once alive apart from the law. But then the presence of law came, and then the flesh was corrupted with sinful passions.

Yes, this flesh, this human nature is passed from person to person by birth, but the presence of law is continuous, and when one becomes aware of law, then sinful passions come.

This is how Paul can state that all die because we sinned, even though law (and as a result death) entered the world through Adam.



Once we understand this idea that it is flesh plus law that brings corruption, we can better understand this passage, where we do desire to do good, but the combination of flesh and law brings sinful passions, and we sin.

And from these things, we have the corruption of the mind in adopting the patterns of the world.

This is why, in Romans 12, Paul instructs us:



Faith in Christ should result in the renewing of our minds, as Christ has freed us from the law which brings sin through His death. (Which is one reason Christ had to die for us, so we could be free from the law, see Romans 6.)

So, the nature of the human being isn't corrupted in the sense that it needs to be repaired, but rather it is corrupted because of the presence of law, and the presences of law and the resulting sinful passions created worldly and sinful patterns in our minds. Thus, the solution is for Christ to die, not only so we can be justified before God, but as a corollary, we become dead to the law, and once we are free from the law, to renew our minds to conform to God's ways, and as we are freed from the law and become Christ like, the flesh is freed from the corruption of the law.

So, there is "original sin" in the sense that sin brought law, and the flesh is corrupted by the presence of law, but when the law is removed, the flesh is no longer corrupt, even though our minds must still be renewed.

An excellent post....but the flesh is corrupt....the GREATEST enemy of the gospel is the one who says "we must obey"

Ben Masada
November 13th, 2015, 03:11 PM
That is not what Paul says at all but rather that he still serves both "laws", that is, with the mind he serves the Torah of Elohim, (which is mount Horeb) but as for "the flesh" the Torah concerning sin, (and death) which is mount Sinai. You might think they are two different names for the same mountain but they are more than that, like two different states of being. This is an example of "Torah of/against sin" concerning the flesh: "MORTIFY your "members" which are upon the earth", (your own "earth" because every man is "the Land" since the first man Adam was formed of dust from the adamah). Here is another example: "MORTIFY the deeds of the body." Here is another example from Yeshua himself: "If your right hand offends you, cut it off, and cast it from you." It is symbolic and metaphoric language for cutting off sin from yourself and Torah of Sinai, ("of below") is used for this purpose just as Paul emplies in Romans 7:25.

Why would Paul praise God for the "allowance" to serve two masters, the Law in his mind only while serving sin in his flesh? In his mind only is not real servitude but to serve sin in his flesh is. Then, in his allegory of the widow who got free from the law that subjected her to her husband, by the same token he had been released from the Law of the Decalogue. (Rom. 7:6)

Paul lived in sin and, to neutralize the power of sin, he released himself from the Law. Then, he taught his disciples that without the Law sin is dead. (Rom. 7:8-10) Paul knew that the Law was a good thing for the others; no longer to him because he had been released from it. (Rom. 7:6) In other words, the Law of the Decalogue did not exist for Paul because Paul confessed to be as slave of the law of sin in his members. (Rom. 7:23)

In spite of all his struggle to get rid of the Law, Paul would yell like a man suffering from schizophrenia, "What a wretched man I am! Who can free me from this body under the power of death! (Rom. 7:24)

Sorry Daqq, but you must focus on the whole text of Rom. 7:1-25 to understand that Paul was struggling against his repressed sinful feelings for a solution to his dilemma that he simply could not get rid of as he himself said, "My sin dwells in me. I do, not do what I want to do but what I wish I could get rid of. I do not even understand my own actions, he would lament. (Rom. 7:15)

If you were a Psychiatrist what diagnosis you would suggest for the case of Paul? That was the thorn on the side of Paul which was holding him down with schizophrenia. Since he himself called it a sinful condition, it is only obvious that he was struggling against repressed homosexual feelings.

Nick M
November 13th, 2015, 04:28 PM
No wonder Paul was not embarrassed to serve sin in his flesh as he declared in Rom. 7:25.

Of course he wasn't. He only had a problem with the circumcision trying to put gentiles under the law after the dispensation of grace. During this period, I am saved apart from Israel, unlike Genesis 12 and forward. Not having to bless Israel does not mean I will curse them either. And so, all of Israel shall be saved.

Nick M
November 13th, 2015, 04:29 PM
An excellent post....but the flesh is corrupt....the GREATEST enemy of the gospel is the one who says "we must obey"

That we an agree on.

Nick M
November 13th, 2015, 04:35 PM
Keeping the law is never sinful, as the law is not sin.

Sorry, but I cannot agree.

4 Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt.

That was not always the case. Which is why he said "now", because before, it was not that way.


That doesn't mean that one sins every time one acts when in the flesh.

From what I see from Paul says otherwise. He even calls it "skubala" which you probably know it isn't very nice and is much more vulgar than "rubbish".


One can do some acts that aren't sin and still not be justified.

Splitting hairs. Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those who had not sinned according to the likeness of the transgression of Adam.

Jamie Gigliotti
November 13th, 2015, 05:06 PM
An excellent post....but the flesh is corrupt....the GREATEST enemy of the gospel is the one who says "we must obey"

Not obeying ourselves, death of ourselves.

"We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life." Romans 6:4

jamie
November 13th, 2015, 06:50 PM
An excellent post....but the flesh is corrupt....the GREATEST enemy of the gospel is the one who says "we must obey"


I guess that would be John the apostle.


He who says, “I know Him” and does not keep His commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him. (1 John 2:4 NKJV)

daqq
November 14th, 2015, 01:04 AM
Why would Paul praise God for the "allowance" to serve two masters, the Law in his mind only while serving sin in his flesh? In his mind only is not real servitude but to serve sin in his flesh is. Then, in his allegory of the widow who got free from the law that subjected her to her husband, by the same token he had been released from the Law of the Decalogue. (Rom. 7:6)

Paul lived in sin and, to neutralize the power of sin, he released himself from the Law. Then, he taught his disciples that without the Law sin is dead. (Rom. 7:8-10) Paul knew that the Law was a good thing for the others; no longer to him because he had been released from it. (Rom. 7:6) In other words, the Law of the Decalogue did not exist for Paul because Paul confessed to be as slave of the law of sin in his members. (Rom. 7:23)

In spite of all his struggle to get rid of the Law, Paul would yell like a man suffering from schizophrenia, "What a wretched man I am! Who can free me from this body under the power of death! (Rom. 7:24)

Sorry Daqq, but you must focus on the whole text of Rom. 7:1-25 to understand that Paul was struggling against his repressed sinful feelings for a solution to his dilemma that he simply could not get rid of as he himself said, "My sin dwells in me. I do, not do what I want to do but what I wish I could get rid of. I do not even understand my own actions, he would lament. (Rom. 7:15)

If you were a Psychiatrist what diagnosis you would suggest for the case of Paul? That was the thorn on the side of Paul which was holding him down with schizophrenia. Since he himself called it a sinful condition, it is only obvious that he was struggling against repressed homosexual feelings.

Again, Paul does not say he "served sin" but rather that he serves "the LAW of sin", which means the portions of Torah that deal with sin and put it to death. You are now showing yourself to be more than just a bad reader because the things you are spouting are clearly intentional distortions concerning what Paul actually writes. This is clear by your willingness to blaspheme the character of Paul at the end of your statement by calling him a repressed homosexual. You yourself desparately need a better understanding of the Torah of sin and death, and you need to use it against your own "members" of your own "household", particularly against that little horn tongue of yours, so as to cut it off from your midst; for what comes forth from the mouth proceeds from the heart, which are evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies: and those are the things that defile the man, (Matthew 15:19-20).

Zeke
November 15th, 2015, 10:19 AM
Again, Paul does not say he "served sin" but rather that he serves "the LAW of sin", which means the portions of Torah that deal with sin and put it to death. You are now showing yourself to be more than just a bad reader because the things you are spouting are clearly intentional distortions concerning what Paul actually writes. This is clear by your willingness to blaspheme the character of Paul at the end of your statement by calling him a repressed homosexual. You yourself desparately need a better understanding of the Torah of sin and death, and you need to use it against your own "members" of your own "household", particularly against that little horn tongue of yours, so as to cut it off from your midst; for what comes forth from the mouth proceeds from the heart, which are evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies: and those are the things that defile the man, (Matthew 15:19-20).

It's the neither Jew or Gentile mantra in Paul's (which ever ones those truly are) teaching that makes the label walkers stumble over the dead letter they are following.

daqq
November 15th, 2015, 11:41 AM
It's the neither Jew or Gentile mantra in Paul's (which ever ones those truly are) teaching that makes the label walkers stumble over the dead letter they are following.

Paul is dead right when he says that "the letter kills" and, more specifically, that those claiming to keep the Torah in the physical sense of all the Rabbinical tradition actually transgress through letters and circumcision:

Romans 2:27-29 KJV
27. And shall not uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfil the law, judge thee, who by [dia-through] the letter and circumcision dost transgress the law?
28. For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
29. But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

Leviticus 19:28
28. And cuttings for/to a soul you shall not put into your flesh; and letters, incision-marks, you shall not put in/on you: I am YHWH.

Leviticus 21:5 (to the priests the sons of Ahron)
5. They shall not make baldness upon their head, neither shall they shave off the corner of their beard, nor make any cuttings in their flesh.

In the first passage above, (Lev 19:28, "grammata stikta") the Septuagint uses "grammata" which is identical to the form rendered "letters" in John 7:15 by most translations:

John 7:15 KJV
15. And the Jews marvelled, saying, How knoweth this man letters, [grammata] having never learned?

And every Torah scroll was and is written upon the skins of souls because every clean beast of the field is a living soul: thus the letter does indeed kill in more than one sense and this sense being physically literal, (and "You shall not murder-kill"). Leviticus 21:5 needs no explanation, it is what it is, but if incisions in the flesh defile the sons of Ahron then what does that say for anyone else? The Levites were taken in the place of all the firstborn sons of all twelve tribes.

Deuteronomy 11:26-28 KJV
26. Behold, I set before you this day a blessing and a curse;
27. A blessing, if ye obey the commandments of the Lord your God, which I command you this day:
28. And a curse, if ye will not obey the commandments of the Lord your God, but turn aside out of the way which I command you this day, to go after other Gods, which ye have not known.

Deuteronomy 30:19-20 KJV
19. I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:
20. That thou mayest love the Lord thy God, and that thou mayest obey his voice, and that thou mayest cleave unto him: for he is thy life, and the length of thy days: that thou mayest dwell in the land which the Lord sware unto thy fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give them.

Deuteronomy 10:16 KJV
16. Circumcise therefore the foreskin of your heart, and be no more stiffnecked.

Deuteronomy 30:4-7 KJV
4. If any of thine be driven out unto the outmost parts of heaven, [Matthew 24:31] from thence will the Lord thy God gather thee, and from thence will he fetch thee:
5. And the Lord thy God will bring thee into the land which thy fathers possessed, and thou shalt possess it; and he will do thee good, and multiply thee above thy fathers.
6. And the Lord thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the Lord thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live.
7. And the Lord thy God will put all these curses upon thine enemies, and on them that hate thee, which persecuted thee.

The teachings of Paul are right there in Torah but they are not based in Sinai thinking which is of below, (though, as he says in Romans 7:25 and other places, he uses those ordinances against himself to keep his own body under submission to the will of Elohim). The teachings of Paul which sound "new" are actually supernal Torah, which is of Horeb the Mountain of Elohim, (Exodus 3:1). :)

Zeke
November 15th, 2015, 12:25 PM
Paul is dead right when he says that "the letter kills" and, more specifically, that those claiming to keep the Torah in the physical sense of all the Rabbinical tradition actually transgress through letters and circumcision:

Romans 2:27-29 KJV
27. And shall not uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfil the law, judge thee, who by [dia-through] the letter and circumcision dost transgress the law?
28. For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
29. But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

Leviticus 19:28
28. And cuttings for/to a soul you shall not put into your flesh; and letters, incision-marks, you shall not put in/on you: I am YHWH.

Leviticus 21:5 (to the priests the sons of Ahron)
5. They shall not make baldness upon their head, neither shall they shave off the corner of their beard, nor make any cuttings in their flesh.

In the first passage above, (Lev 19:28, "grammata stikta") the Septuagint uses "grammata" which is identical to the form rendered "letters" in John 7:15 by most translations:

John 7:15 KJV
15. And the Jews marvelled, saying, How knoweth this man letters, [grammata] having never learned?

And every Torah scroll was and is written upon the skins of souls because every clean beast of the field is a living soul: thus the letter does indeed kill in more than one sense and this sense being physically literal, (and "You shall not murder-kill"). Leviticus 21:5 needs no explanation, it is what it is, but if incisions in the flesh defile the sons of Ahron then what does that say for anyone else? The Levites were taken in the place of all the firstborn sons of all twelve tribes.

Deuteronomy 11:26-28 KJV
26. Behold, I set before you this day a blessing and a curse;
27. A blessing, if ye obey the commandments of the Lord your God, which I command you this day:
28. And a curse, if ye will not obey the commandments of the Lord your God, but turn aside out of the way which I command you this day, to go after other Gods, which ye have not known.

Deuteronomy 30:19-20 KJV
19. I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:
20. That thou mayest love the Lord thy God, and that thou mayest obey his voice, and that thou mayest cleave unto him: for he is thy life, and the length of thy days: that thou mayest dwell in the land which the Lord sware unto thy fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give them.

Deuteronomy 10:16 KJV
16. Circumcise therefore the foreskin of your heart, and be no more stiffnecked.

Deuteronomy 30:4-7 KJV
4. If any of thine be driven out unto the outmost parts of heaven, [Matthew 24:31] from thence will the Lord thy God gather thee, and from thence will he fetch thee:
5. And the Lord thy God will bring thee into the land which thy fathers possessed, and thou shalt possess it; and he will do thee good, and multiply thee above thy fathers.
6. And the Lord thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the Lord thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live.
7. And the Lord thy God will put all these curses upon thine enemies, and on them that hate thee, which persecuted thee.

The teachings of Paul are right there in Torah but they are not based in Sinai thinking which is of below, (though, as he says in Romans 7:25 and other places, he uses those ordinances against himself to keep his own body under submission to the will of Elohim). The teachings of Paul which sound "new" are actually supernal Torah, which is of Horeb the Mountain of Elohim, (Exodus 3:1). :)

Well this is foreign territory to traditional thinking, The amount of OT quotes used by Paul in his teachings should tear the traditional veil of it being new, but I realize after wearing one myself for years that it is made of stuff durable material.

You make really good points, and I enjoy you're discernment:).

Totton Linnet
November 15th, 2015, 02:48 PM
I guess that would be John the apostle.


He who says, “I know Him” and does not keep His commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him. (1 John 2:4 NKJV)

If you try to treat Jesu's commandments [sayings] as the law of Moses you will find that they are a hundred times more impossible than the laws of Moses.

His law is that we should love each other...how can that be a law to be obeyed? how can love be commanded?


...come on you are clever...this is a world first, you can be the first man ever to explain how love can be commanded.

Then you can explain how people can be commanded to love God with all their hearts mind and strength.

themuzicman
November 16th, 2015, 08:44 AM
Sorry, but I cannot agree.

4 Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt.

That was not always the case. Which is why he said "now", because before, it was not that way.

But this doesn't say that all acts are sin. Indeed, based upon Romans 2:14-16, it is simply evidence of knowledge of the law, which becomes the basis for the judgment of violations of the law. Yes, attempting to do good works to be justified only further highlights sins, and as such increase the debt.

Debt, however, isn't sin.


From what I see from Paul says otherwise. He even calls it "skubala" which you probably know it isn't very nice and is much more vulgar than "rubbish".

Just like Isaiah who says that all righteous acts are as filthy rags. They're still righteous acts, they're just not sufficient for justification, which is Paul's point


Splitting hairs. Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those who had not sinned according to the likeness of the transgression of Adam.

You're adding to the text of Scripture, now. Paul clearly states that before law came HE was alive. (Romans 7:9)

daqq
November 16th, 2015, 08:55 AM
Well this is foreign territory to traditional thinking, The amount of OT quotes used by Paul in his teachings should tear the traditional veil of it being new, but I realize after wearing one myself for years that it is made of stuff durable material.

You make really good points, and I enjoy you're discernment:).

Thanks friend, I find general agreement in many of your points also. :)


Just like Isaiah who says that all righteous acts are as filthy rags. They're still righteous acts, they're just not sufficient for justification, which is Paul's point

:thumb: Well said. :)

Nick M
November 16th, 2015, 09:06 AM
You're adding to the text of Scripture, now. Paul clearly states that before law came HE was alive. (Romans 7:9)

Uh, no.

Romans 5

13 (For until the law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law. 14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those who had not sinned according to the likeness of the transgression of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come.

themuzicman
November 16th, 2015, 11:52 AM
Uh, no.

Romans 5

13 (For until the law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law. 14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those who had not sinned according to the likeness of the transgression of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come.

Ah, I was thinking of another verse. Paul is speaking of physical death, here, even for those who never had the Old Covenant Law.