PDA

View Full Version : New moon = new month. Definition??



iouae
November 12th, 2015, 10:08 AM
Does the Bible anywhere give the means of telling when a new month begins?

We assume it is with the sighting of the crescent moon in Jerusalem.
Why that and not the astronomical new moon?

I ask this in connection with Ps 81:3

3 Blow up the trumpet in the new moon, in the time appointed, on our solemn feast day.

"In the time appointed" in Hebrew means on the FULL MOON.

But with Hebrew lunar months varying between 29 and 30+ days, the 15th of the lunar month sometimes is NOT the day of the full moon.

Here then comes the problem...
If the feasts are ON THE 15th and ON THE FULL MOON these are sometimes one day out.

Could it be that Christ ate Passover on the FULL MOON feast day and the Jews ate Passover on the 15th feast day?

I know nobody does this, but for feast keepers, why not first make the 15th the same evening as when the moon is fullest, and then work back to define the 1st day of the month.

Thanks for any replies in advance.

Jacob
November 12th, 2015, 10:14 AM
The sighting of the new moon is a part of determining when is the head of the month.

The sighting would need to involve seeing the first sliver of light from the moon, rather than a calculation or when the moon is completely dark / black.

iouae
November 12th, 2015, 10:21 AM
The sighting of the new moon is a part of determining when is the head of the month.

The sighting would need to involve seeing the first sliver of light from the moon, rather than a calculation or when the moon is completely dark / black.

Full moon is when the moon is COMPLETELY full.
One could argue that new moon is when the moon is COMPLETELY black.

Apart from tradition, is there any verse in the Bible telling us to use the sighting crescent method?

Thanks for your perspective.

Jacob
November 12th, 2015, 10:27 AM
The Bible speaks of the head of the month, the new moon.

Do you know if you are able to see or sight the new moon if it were completely black?

The new moon can be sighted when the first sliver of light appears on the moon's face / surface.

iouae
November 12th, 2015, 10:37 AM
The Bible speaks of the head of the month, the new moon.

Do you know if you are able to see or sight the new moon if it were completely black?

The new moon can be sighted when the first sliver of light appears on the moon's face / surface.

Does it bother you if Pesach and Succoth are not on the exact full moon but a day before or after?

chair
November 12th, 2015, 10:43 AM
I know nobody does this, but for feast keepers, why not first make the 15th the same evening as when the moon is fullest, and then work back to define the 1st day of the month.



When this was originally set up, there wasn't a calendar. There were sightings of the new moon.

Jacob
November 12th, 2015, 10:43 AM
Does it bother you if Pesach and Succoth are not on the exact full moon but a day before or after?

Pesach (or rather the feast of unleavened bread) and Succoth are on the 15th day of their respective months.

The new moon marks the beginning, start, or rather head of the month. We are not talking about the astronomical new moon which is completely dark or black.

iouae
November 12th, 2015, 10:48 AM
Pesach (or rather the feast of unleavened bread) Succoth are on the 15th day of their respective months.

The new moon marks the beginning, start, or rather head of the month. We are not talking about the astronomical new moon which is completely dark or black.

Ps 81:3 says they should be on a full moon.

What I want is a scripture from you please telling us to sight the crescent. I am sure back then they could calculate the astronomical new moon as we can today.
If you don't have a scripture I don't blame you because I cannot find one either.

So we are left with the TRADITION of crescent sighting.

Jacob
November 12th, 2015, 10:55 AM
Ps 81:3 says they should be on a full moon.

What I want is a scripture from you please telling us to sight the crescent. I am sure back then they could calculate the astronomical new moon as we can today.
If you don't have a scripture I don't blame you because I cannot find one either.

So we are left with the TRADITION of crescent sighting.

I am not telling you the new moon begins with the sighting of a crescent (moon).

I am telling you it does not begin with an astronomical new moon.

The days of the month are determined from the sighting of the new moon.

I do not have a scripture for you.

Have you observed an astronomical new moon?

I think it is easier to observe the first sliver of light.

iouae
November 12th, 2015, 11:11 AM
I personally have tried to observe new moons staring into the sunset and unless you know exactly where to look, its nearly impossible.

I could just as easily calculate the astronomical new moon, and have.

Every evening and morning, the moon moves a set number of degrees, say compared to sunset. So every morning at sunrise the waning crescent can be seen to be an exact number of degrees closer to the sunrise. By this means I can easily calculate the astronomical new moon from observation.

The moon is new when the moon and sun rise at the same time.

Jacob
November 12th, 2015, 11:14 AM
I personally have tried to observe new moons staring into the sunset and unless you know exactly where to look, its nearly impossible.

I could just as easily calculate the astronomical new moon, and have.

Every evening and morning, the moon moves a set number of degrees, say compared to sunset. So every morning at sunrise the waning crescent can be seen to be an exact number of degrees closer to the sunrise. By this means I can easily calculate the astronomical new moon from observation.

There is nothing about an astronomical new moon in the Bible.

iouae
November 12th, 2015, 11:16 AM
There is nothing about an astronomical new moon in the Bible.

There is nothing about a crescent new moon in the Bible.

In fact the two are logically opposite since BY DEFINITION the moon is new when it has no crescent.

Jacob
November 12th, 2015, 11:31 AM
There is nothing about a crescent new moon in the Bible.

In fact the two are ;logically opposite since BY DEFINITION the moon is new when it has no crescent.

You mentioned a crescent new moon.

But you are wanting to affirm an astronomical new moon.

I mentioned a Biblical new moon can only be observed in accordance with the sighting of the new moon, which I believe corresponds with the first sliver of light, not the absence of light, which in such circumstance you may not be able to observe the moon at all. From this point it was, I believe, that you mentioned calculations. The new moon is observed by sighting / observations, not calculation, or calculations.

iouae
November 12th, 2015, 11:36 AM
You mentioned a crescent new moon.

But you are wanting to affirm an astronomical new moon.

I mentioned a Biblical new moon can only be observed in accordance with the sighting of the new moon, which I believe corresponds with the first sliver of light, not the absence of light, which in such circumstance you may not be able to observe the moon at all. From this point it was, I believe, that you mentioned calculations. The new moon is observed by sighting / observations, not calculation, or calculations.

I know it is. And maybe that is how it should be.

But maybe there is a need for a new Sanhedrin to change the calendar to upgrade it so that Pesach ALWAYS falls on a FULL MOON which is ALWAYS the 15th.

Jacob
November 12th, 2015, 11:40 AM
I know it is. And maybe that is how it should be.

But maybe there is a need for a new Sanhedrin to change the calendar to upgrade it so that Pesach ALWAYS falls on a FULL MOON which is ALWAYS the 15th.

The 15th day of the month can only be determined by counting each day from the head of the month, which could only be by observation.

iouae
November 12th, 2015, 11:41 AM
You know postponements which the Jewish Holy Day calendar setters use to make high Sabbaths coincide with the day they want. Maybe they should move the beginning of the month to ensure Pesach falls only on the full moon.

iouae
November 12th, 2015, 11:42 AM
The Jewish Holy days today are NOT set by observation. They are calculated years in advance and posted on the internet for any place on earth.

achduke
November 12th, 2015, 11:47 AM
Does the Bible anywhere give the means of telling when a new month begins?

We assume it is with the sighting of the crescent moon in Jerusalem.
Why that and not the astronomical new moon?

I ask this in connection with Ps 81:3

3 Blow up the trumpet in the new moon, in the time appointed, on our solemn feast day.

"In the time appointed" in Hebrew means on the FULL MOON.

But with Hebrew lunar months varying between 29 and 30+ days, the 15th of the lunar month sometimes is NOT the day of the full moon.

Here then comes the problem...
If the feasts are ON THE 15th and ON THE FULL MOON these are sometimes one day out.

Could it be that Christ ate Passover on the FULL MOON feast day and the Jews ate Passover on the 15th feast day?

I know nobody does this, but for feast keepers, why not first make the 15th the same evening as when the moon is fullest, and then work back to define the 1st day of the month.

Thanks for any replies in advance.

You can calculate the new moon and it was even possible during the time of David. David knew when the new moon was even before the new moon festival.

1 Samuel 20:5 And David said unto Jonathan, Behold, to morrow is the new moon, and I should not fail to sit with the king at meat: but let me go, that I may hide myself in the field unto the third day at even.

Jacob
November 12th, 2015, 11:49 AM
The Jewish Holy days today are NOT set by observation. They are calculated years in advance and posted on the internet for any place on earth.

You can count days of the month from the head of the month, which in Biblical times was by observation only is how I understand it.

There are three feasts and seven holy days of Torah.

iouae
November 12th, 2015, 11:50 AM
You can calculate the new moon and it was even possible during the time of David.

1 Samuel 20:5 And David said unto Jonathan, Behold, to morrow is the new moon, and I should not fail to sit with the king at meat: but let me go, that I may hide myself in the field unto the third day at even.

That is a great scripture to show that the new moon can be calculated.

iouae
November 12th, 2015, 11:52 AM
You can count days of the month from the head of the month, which in Biblical times was by observation only is how I understand it.

There are three feasts and seven holy days of Torah.

I believe 2000 years ago the Pharisees and Sadducees were arguing over the calendar. IMO it is because all one needs to calculate a calendar does not seem to be clearly defined such as crescent or no crescent.

iouae
November 12th, 2015, 11:56 AM
If one is trying to set a new lunar month using astronomical new moon times, one looks up the time of the astronomical new moon and adds 9 hours to that. If that is before sunset then one could possibly see the crescent and that is a crescent new moon.

Jacob
November 12th, 2015, 11:57 AM
I believe 2000 years ago the Pharisees and Sadducees were arguing over the calendar. IMO it is because all one needs to calculate a calendar does not seem to be clearly defined such as crescent or no crescent.

The new moon is not determined by cresent. Neither is the astronomical new moon the head of the month (rosh chodesh).

iouae
November 12th, 2015, 12:02 PM
The new moon is not determined by cresent. Neither is the astronomical new moon the head of the month (rosh chodesh).

Neither is Rosh Hoshanna the head of the year. Nowhere in the Bible is the 7th month the 1st month. Its Yom Teruwah.

iouae
November 12th, 2015, 12:06 PM
With all due respect calling anything Rosh... does not make it so, and the Bible does not say that it is Rosh... either. That's the problem. On such a big issue, the Bible is very vague.

Jacob
November 12th, 2015, 12:36 PM
With all due respect calling anything Rosh... does not make it so, and the Bible does not say that it is Rosh... either. That's the problem. On such a big issue, the Bible is very vague.

Have you a definition for the word rosh?

Jacob
November 12th, 2015, 12:37 PM
Neither is Rosh Hoshanna the head of the year. Nowhere in the Bible is the 7th month the 1st month. Its Yom Teruwah.

Yom Teruah is one of the seven holy days of Torah.

iouae
November 12th, 2015, 12:45 PM
Have you a definition for the word rosh?

"Head" start of...

What I am wanting is where God defines "start of..."

iouae
November 12th, 2015, 12:49 PM
Yom Teruah is one of the seven holy days of Torah.

Yes, and it is mistakenly called Rosh Hashanah. The year does not start then but Abib/Nisan.

Likewise folks could be getting the start of the month wrong.

I am more interested in getting the times of Peshach settled whether it always is on the full moon or not.

Jacob
November 12th, 2015, 12:51 PM
"Head" start of...

What I am wanting is where God defines "start of..."

The words start and beginning are not a part of the definition for rosh. I understand the word to mean head. Did you have an objection to that part of what I said?

Is the first day of the month the head of the month?

iouae
November 12th, 2015, 12:51 PM
Have you any theory why Jesus kept Passover one day, and the mainstream Jews kept it the next?

iouae
November 12th, 2015, 12:53 PM
The new moon is not determined by cresent. Neither is the astronomical new moon the head of the month (rosh chodesh).

Please explain to me what rosh chodesh means. No I don't know what head of the month means. I assume it meant start.

Jacob
November 12th, 2015, 12:56 PM
Have you any theory why Jesus kept Passover one day, and the mainstream Jews kept it the next?

No.

The Passover lambs were slain or slaughtered on the 14th of the month, but eaten in the evening which would be the 15th.

That is how I understand it.

iouae
November 12th, 2015, 12:58 PM
No.

The Passover lambs were slain or slaughtered on the 14th of the month, but eaten in the evening which would be the 15th.

That is how I understand it.

That is exactly correct. There must have been some calendar controversy.

achduke
November 12th, 2015, 01:00 PM
Have you any theory why Jesus kept Passover one day, and the mainstream Jews kept it the next?

Why do you think that Jesus kept the Passover at the time he was killed? Are you absolutely certain the Last Supper was a Passover dinner?

iouae
November 12th, 2015, 01:04 PM
Why do you think that Jesus kept the Passover at the time he was killed? Are you absolutely certain the Last Supper was a Passover dinner?

It says so 4 times that they were eating the Passover.

iouae
November 12th, 2015, 01:07 PM
Matthew 26:17 Now the first day of the feast of unleavened bread the disciples came to Jesus, saying unto him, Where wilt thou that we prepare for thee to eat the passover?

Mark 14:12 And the first day of unleavened bread, when they killed the passover, his disciples said unto him, Where wilt thou that we go and prepare that thou mayest eat the passover?

Mark 14:14 And wheresoever he shall go in, say ye to the goodman of the house, The Master saith, Where is the guestchamber, where I shall eat the passover with my disciples?

Luke 22:8 And he sent Peter and John, saying, Go and prepare us the passover, that we may eat.

Luke 22:11 And ye shall say unto the goodman of the house, The Master saith unto thee, Where is the guestchamber, where I shall eat the passover with my disciples?

Luke 22:15 And he said unto them, With desire I have desired to eat this passover with you before I suffer:

Jacob
November 12th, 2015, 01:20 PM
That is exactly correct. There must have been some calendar controversy.

I have not concluded this.

Any controversy about the holy days and when they are observed can be cleared up with a correct understanding of Torah.

The length of a month in terms of the number of days is not always the same. This is why Rosh Chodesh corresponds to the observation based on sighting and witness testimony.

As for calculations or a calendar based on calculations, this is not the same.

achduke
November 12th, 2015, 01:25 PM
Matthew 26:17 Now the first day of the feast of unleavened bread the disciples came to Jesus, saying unto him, Where wilt thou that we prepare for thee to eat the passover?

Mark 14:12 And the first day of unleavened bread, when they killed the passover, his disciples said unto him, Where wilt thou that we go and prepare that thou mayest eat the passover?

Mark 14:14 And wheresoever he shall go in, say ye to the goodman of the house, The Master saith, Where is the guestchamber, where I shall eat the passover with my disciples?


Mark 14:12 Contradicts that they were eating the Passover. If it was still the same day they kill the Passover then they were not eating the Passover meal since that starts at the twilight on the 14/15th. This would have been the preparation day which is document elsewhere.



Luke 22:8 And he sent Peter and John, saying, Go and prepare us the passover, that we may eat.

Luke 22:11 And ye shall say unto the goodman of the house, The Master saith unto thee, Where is the guestchamber, where I shall eat the passover with my disciples?

Luke 22:15 And he said unto them, With desire I have desired to eat this passover with you before I suffer:

Was Luke 22:15 really the passover meal or just a last supper during the preparation day? It is entirely possible the Jews at this was a passover meal. The Jewish leaders were quite wrong at this time as Jesus points out but it seems like the apostles who had the Holy Spirit would correct this and point this out. Also it is my belief God does everything to his time table and does not stray. If Jesus is the Passover lamb then he would have been killed at the same time the other lambs were sent to slaughter.

iouae
November 12th, 2015, 01:39 PM
Mark 14:12 Contradicts that they were eating the Passover. If it was still the same day they kill the Passover then they were not eating the Passover meal since that starts at the twilight on the 14/15th. This would have been the preparation day which is document elsewhere.



Was Luke 22:15 really the passover meal or just a last supper during the preparation day? It is entirely possible the Jews at this was a passover meal. The Jewish leaders were quite wrong at this time as Jesus points out but it seems like the apostles who had the Holy Spirit would correct this and point this out. Also it is my belief God does everything to his time table and does not stray. If Jesus is the Passover lamb then he would have been killed at the same time the other lambs were sent to slaughter.

Passover lambs were prepared and killed on the evening of 14th at 3pm. So technically that is the same "day" as the first day of the Passover. All the work was done before the annual Sabbath of the 15th.

Thus I have no problem with Mark 14:12. 6 scriptures say it WAS the passover

iouae
November 12th, 2015, 01:45 PM
Mark 14:12 Contradicts that they were eating the Passover. If it was still the same day they kill the Passover then they were not eating the Passover meal since that starts at the twilight on the 14/15th. This would have been the preparation day which is document elsewhere.



Was Luke 22:15 really the passover meal or just a last supper during the preparation day? It is entirely possible the Jews at this was a passover meal. The Jewish leaders were quite wrong at this time as Jesus points out but it seems like the apostles who had the Holy Spirit would correct this and point this out. Also it is my belief God does everything to his time table and does not stray. If Jesus is the Passover lamb then he would have been killed at the same time the other lambs were sent to slaughter.

Passover lambs were prepared and killed on the evening of 14th at 3pm. So technically that is the same "day" as the first day of the Passover. All the work was done before the annual Sabbath of the 15th.

Thus I have no problem with Mark 14:12. 6 scriptures say it WAS the passover

jamie
November 12th, 2015, 01:45 PM
It says so 4 times that they were eating the Passover.


So you presume this is the Mosaic Passover but scripture does not say that. The Mosaic Passover was observed the next day at night.


Then they led Jesus from Caiaphas to the Praetorium and it was early morning. But they themselves did not go into the Praetorium lest they should be defiled, but that they might eat the Passover. (John 18:28 NKJV)

The Jews observed the Passover the next night but by then Jesus was dead.

achduke
November 12th, 2015, 01:46 PM
Passover lambs were prepared and killed on the evening of 14th at 3pm. So technically that is the same "day" as the first day of the Passover. All the work was done before the annual Sabbath of the 15th.

Thus I have no problem with Mark 14:12. 6 scriptures say it WAS the passover

Yes but would that mean he was eating the passover the evening before which would have been the start of the 14th? Who would have slaughtered the lamb? Which priest would have slaughtered the lamb for them and who would have collected the blood for this last supper passover?

jamie
November 12th, 2015, 01:57 PM
Passover lambs were prepared and killed on the evening of 14th at 3pm. So technically that is the same "day" as the first day of the Passover. All the work was done before the annual Sabbath of the 15th.


The Passover animals were killed and prepared to be eaten that night. The 15th began at sundown and the Passover was eaten on the 15th.

Jesus had to institute the NT Passover the previous night because he would be in his tomb at the time the Passover was eaten.

iouae
November 12th, 2015, 04:41 PM
The Passover animals were killed and prepared to be eaten that night. The 15th began at sundown and the Passover was eaten on the 15th.

Jesus had to institute the NT Passover the previous night because he would be in his tomb at the time the Passover was eaten.

Or there was a calendar discrepancy.
The Bible does not tell us how to tell the start of a month.

Or the Jews kept passover on end 14-beginning 15th and Christ kept Passover on the Full moon - which Ps 81:3 says in the Heb for "appointed time".

I am convinced both groups believed they were keeping the right day, and both were convinced they were keeping the Passover.

jamie
November 12th, 2015, 05:02 PM
Or there was a calendar discrepancy.
The Bible does not tell us how to tell the start of a month.


I like to keep things simple so I just look at a calendar to see when Passover is for that year.

jamie
November 12th, 2015, 05:07 PM
Or the Jews kept passover on end 14-beginning 15th and Christ kept Passover on the Full moon - which Ps 81:3 says in the Heb for "appointed time".

I am convinced both groups believed they were keeping the right day, and both were convinced they were keeping the Passover.


God specified the 15th.


And on the fifteenth day of the same month is the Feast of Unleavened Bread to the LORD; seven days you must eat unleavened bread. (Leviticus 23:6 NKJV)

jamie
November 12th, 2015, 05:11 PM
Or the Jews kept passover on end 14-beginning 15th and Christ kept Passover on the Full moon - which Ps 81:3 says in the Heb for "appointed time".


In 30 CE the full moon was on a Thursday.

(usno.navy.mil/astronomical applications> data services> Spring Phenomena 25 BCE to 38 CE)

iouae
November 12th, 2015, 10:35 PM
Many smaller Christian groups keep the Lev 23 Feasts.

And the moment they leave the Jewish calendar and try to figure a calendar out for themselves sola scriptura, they get into a world of hurt, because the Bible does not even specify clearly how to determine the beginning of a month, or even of the year. And these things have to be known to keep Feasts.

So all the little groups end up keeping Feasts on slightly different days.

iouae
November 12th, 2015, 10:42 PM
For the same reason as stated above, I can understand that the Jewish calendar may have been wrong at the time Christ was crucified.

I believe Christ got the date for Passover right. Maybe even it was determined by God that the Jews would be a day late so that Christ could EAT THE PASSOVER and also the next day BE THE PASSOVER LAMB.

By the way, eating and being all occurred on the same day, viz. sunset to sunset. That day WAS the Passover.

jamie
November 12th, 2015, 11:00 PM
Many smaller Christian groups keep the Lev 23 Feasts.


That's too bad. The Leviticus 23 feasts are God's feasts and he did not give them to Gentiles.

They are holy and we should keep hands off.

iouae
November 12th, 2015, 11:05 PM
That's too bad. The Leviticus 23 feasts are God's feasts and he did not give them to Gentiles.

They are holy and we should keep hands off.

Why in the Millennium are gentile nations FORCED to keep God's feasts if they are not for all?

Zech 14

16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.

17 And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.

daqq
November 13th, 2015, 12:13 AM
Why in the Millennium are gentile nations FORCED to keep God's feasts if they are not for all?

Zech 14

16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.

17 And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.

That is not in some "future millennium" but rather right now. However, as I tried to explain in the food thread, carnivores and blood eaters simply cannot understand any of these things. :chuckle:

iouae
November 13th, 2015, 05:21 AM
That is not in some "future millennium" but rather right now. However, as I tried to explain in the food thread, carnivores and blood eaters simply cannot understand any of these things. :chuckle:

Please enlighten this omnivore - are you referring to visitors from all nations going to Jerusalem to keep Tabernacles - and if they don't, their home nations get a drought?

jamie
November 13th, 2015, 08:24 AM
Why in the Millennium are gentile nations FORCED to keep God's feasts if they are not for all?


The King will will be a light to the Gentiles.


A light to bring revelation to the Gentiles and the glory of Your people Israel. (Luke 2:32 NKJV)

iouae
November 13th, 2015, 08:37 AM
The King will will be a light to the Gentiles.


A light to bring revelation to the Gentiles and the glory of Your people Israel. (Luke 2:32 NKJV)

Is Zech 14:16 not literal?

My rule - take it at its literal meaning, unless impossible.
Going up to Jerusalem to keep the Feast with Christ, sounds possible and wonderful.

jamie
November 13th, 2015, 08:45 AM
My rule - take it at its literal meaning, unless impossible.
Going up to Jerusalem to keep the Feast with Christ, sounds possible and wonderful.


Yes, the Law has been changed.


For the priesthood being changed, of necessity there is also a change of the law. (Hebrews 7:12 NKJV)

iouae
November 13th, 2015, 08:52 AM
Yes, the Law has been changed.


For the priesthood being changed, of necessity there is also a change of the law. (Hebrews 7:12 NKJV)

Do you believe Christ will rule on earth during the Millennium?

jamie
November 13th, 2015, 09:14 AM
Do you believe Christ will rule on earth during the Millennium?


Of course. And we will be kings and priests and we shall reign on the earth (Revelation 5:10).

iouae
November 13th, 2015, 09:18 AM
Of course. And we will be kings and priests and we shall reign on the earth (Revelation 5:10).

Hallelujah.

So skim through Zech 14 and tell me which bits are not describing soon after His return, and which are not literal.

iouae
November 13th, 2015, 09:22 AM
When Christ returns, He is going to surround himself with the Israelites who were in slavery at the end time. Would you have any objection to them keeping the Feast of Tabernacles in the Millennium?

Yoḥanon-benYaʿăqov
November 13th, 2015, 12:40 PM
B’mid’bar 10:10 – וּבְרָאשֵׁיכֶם חָדְשֵׁיכֶם– uv’raʾshéyḵem ḥad’shéyḵem – “and at the start of your new moons.”

Sh’muél Alef 20:5 – הִנֵּה־חֹדֶשׁ מָחָר– hinnéh-ḥodesh maḥar – “behold, the new moon is tomorrow.”

Sh’muél Alef 20:18 – מָחָר חֹדֶשׁ– maḥar ḥodesh – “tomorrow is the new moon.”

Sh’muél Alef 20:24 – וַיְהִי הַחֹדֶשׁ– vay’hiy haḥodesh – “and [when] it was the new moon.”

Sh’muél Alef 20:27 – וַיְהִי מִמָּחֳרַת הַחֹדֶשׁ הַשֵּׁנִי– vay’hiy mimmaḥŏrat haḥodesh hashéniy – “and it was on the morning of the second [day] of the new moon”

Sh’muél Alef 20:34 – בְּיוֹם־הַחֹדֶשׁ הַשֵּׁנִי– b’yom-haḥodesh hashéniy – “and on the second day of the new moon.”

M’laḵiym Béyt 4:23 – לֹא־חֹדֶשׁ וְלֹא שָׁבָּת– loʾ-ḥodesh v’loʾ Shabbat – “neither the new moon nor the Sabbath.”

Y’sha’yahu 66:23 – וְהָיָה מִדֵּי־חֹדֶשׁ בְּחָדְשׁוֹ– v’hayah middéy-ḥodesh b’ḥad’sho – “and it will be from new moon until new moon.”

Y’ḥez’qél 46:1 – וּבְיוֹם הַחֹדֶשׁ יִפָּתֵחַ– uv’yom haḥodesh yippatéaḥ - “and on the day of the new moon it will be opened.”

Y’ḥez’qél 46:6 – וּבְיוֹם הַחֹדֶשׁ– uv’yom haḥodesh – “but on the day of the new moon.”

Hoshéa 2:13 – חָדְשָׁהּ– ḥad’shah – “her new moon.”

T’hilliym 81:4 – תִּקְעוּ בַחֹדֶשׁ שׁוֹפָר– tiq’u vaḥodesh shofar – “blow your horn on the new moon.”

Ezra 3:5 – וְלֶחֳדָשִׁים– v’leḥŏdashiym – “and for the new moons.”

As you can see, the Hebrew Scriptures speak of the new moon quite frequently. The word – חֹדֶשׁ– ḥodesh, or in modern Hebrew – הוֹדֶשׁ– ḥodesh literally means “new moon,” but it also means “month.”

Also there are no months with “30+” days. Nisan – 30 Days; Iyyar – 29 days; Siyvan – 30 days; Tammuz – 29 days; Av – 30 days; Elul – 29 days; Tish’riy 30 days; Mar’ḥesh’van – 29 days; Ḵis’lev – 30 days; Tévét – 29 days; Sh’vat – 30 days; Adar 29 days.

On a short year, 353 days, one day is subtracted from Kis’lev. On a long year, 355 days, one day is added to Mar’ḥesh’van. On a leap year the 30 day month Adar I is added and regular Adar becomes Adar II.
Another thing I should point out is that – יָרֵחַ מָלֵא– yaréaḥ maléʾ is Hebrew for “full moon;” and that term appears nowhere in the Hebrew Scriptures. The word – כֵּסֶה– késeh means “mark,” “distinction,” “marked,” or “appointed time;” it has nothing to do with any moon full or otherwise.

The average cycle of the moon is 29 days 12 hours 44 minutes and 3 seconds. However an actual lunar month can be as short as 29 days 6 hours 14 minutes and 24 seconds; or as long as 29 days 19 hours and 12 minutes. If one were to calculate two consecutive average lunar months the sum would be 59 days 1 hour 28 minutes and 6 seconds. A short month added to a long month would be 59 days 1 hour 26 minutes and 24 seconds. Perhaps now you can understand why the Hebrew months alternate 30 days and 29 days.

Another thing most people fail to realize is that the period of time between the disappearance of the last sliver of light and the appearance of the first sliver of light at the time of the new moon is roughly 72 hours. It is equally true for the disappearance of the last sliver of darkness until the appearance of the first sliver of darkness at the time of the full moon. So regardless of whether it is a standard year of 354 days, a short year of 353 days, a long year of 355 days, a standard leap year of 384 days, a short leap year of 383 days, or a long leap year of 385 days the first day of the month always occurs during the 72 hour phase of the new moon, and the 15th always occurs during the 72 hour phase of the full moon.

jamie
November 13th, 2015, 12:58 PM
...Nisan – 30 Days; Tish’riy 30 days;


Yes, because Nisan and Tishri each have 30 days the 15th falls at mid-month when the moon is full.

iouae
November 13th, 2015, 01:05 PM
Another thing I should point out is that – יָרֵחַ מָלֵא– yaréaḥ maléʾ is Hebrew for “full moon;” and that term appears nowhere in the Hebrew Scriptures. The word – כֵּסֶה– késeh means “mark,” “distinction,” “marked,” or “appointed time;” it has nothing to do with any moon full or otherwise.

The average cycle of the moon is 29 days 12 hours 44 minutes and 3 seconds. However an actual lunar month can be as short as 29 days 6 hours 14 minutes and 24 seconds; or as long as 29 days 19 hours and 12 minutes. If one were to calculate two consecutive average lunar months the sum would be 59 days 1 hour 28 minutes and 6 seconds. A short month added to a long month would be 59 days 1 hour 26 minutes and 24 seconds. Perhaps now you can understand why the Hebrew months alternate 30 days and 29 days.

Another thing most people fail to realize is that the period of time between the disappearance of the last sliver of light and the appearance of the first sliver of light at the time of the new moon is roughly 72 hours. It is equally true for the disappearance of the last sliver of darkness until the appearance of the first sliver of darkness at the time of the full moon. So regardless of whether it is a standard year of 354 days, a short year of 353 days, a long year of 355 days, a standard leap year of 384 days, a short leap year of 383 days, or a long leap year of 385 days the first day of the month always occurs during the 72 hour phase of the new moon, and the 15th always occurs during the 72 hour phase of the full moon.

Thank you for that wonderfully thorough post on the calendar.

My e-sword software for "kehseh" as used in Ps 81:3 said it meant "full moon" and festival appointed time. Strong's H3677.

I was hopping that it definitely meant full moon, but you say it means...
"means “mark,” “distinction,” “marked,” or “appointed time;” it has nothing to do with any moon full or otherwise."

So there is nothing simple about the Hebrew calendar.

I know that I could not just sit down with the Bible and from this alone devise the current Hebrew calendar.

I am an avid moon watcher and I have noticed that Succoth and Pesach Holy Days often do not fall on the exact night of the full moon but are off by a day.

iouae
November 13th, 2015, 01:42 PM
[So regardless of whether it is a standard year of 354 days, a short year of 353 days, a long year of 355 days, a standard leap year of 384 days, a short leap year of 383 days, or a long leap year of 385 days the first day of the month always occurs during the 72 hour phase of the new moon, and the 15th[/SIZE] always occurs during the 72 hour phase of the full moon.[/FONT]

What do you think of postponements?
Do you think these are correct in some instances?
Nowhere in the Bible is there mention of postponements?

Most folks have never even heard of postponements of Holy Days?

Yoḥanon-benYaʿăqov
November 13th, 2015, 02:14 PM
This year Pésaḥ began at sunset on Friday April 3rd and the apex of the full moon occurred at 2:05 PM Saturday April 4th Jerusalem time. Sukkot began at sunset on Sunday September 27th and the apex of the full moon occurred at 4:50 AM Monday September 28th Jerusalem time. Next year Pésaḥ begins at sunset on Friday April 22nd and the apex of the full moon occurs at 7:24 AM Friday April 22nd Jerusalem time. Sukkot begins at sunset onSunday October 16th and the apex of the full moon occurs at 6:23 AM Sunday October 16th.

Incidentally, the year 5775 which ended about 2 months ago was a standard 354 day year. This year 5776 is a long 385 day leap year.

But as I stated before, the first of every month always falls within the 72 hour phase of the new moon, and the 15th within the 72 hour phase of the full moon. Today is Rosh Ḥodesh of the month of Kis’lev; it began at sunset last night, and the apex of the new moon occurred at 6:47 PM Wednesday November 11th 21 hours and 56 minutes before Rosh Ḥodesh began. The 15th begins at sunset on Thursday November 26th and the apex of the full moon occurs at 11:44 PM Wednesday November 25th Jerusalem time.

Yoḥanon-benYaʿăqov
November 13th, 2015, 02:21 PM
What do you think of postponements?
Do you think these are correct in some instances?
Nowhere in the Bible is there mention of postponements?

Most folks have never even heard of postponements of Holy Days?

I am not entirely certain as to what you mean by "postponements." There is one occasion mentioned that Pésaḥ was held one month later on Iyyar 15th due to the fact that the second Temple wasn't ready in time. However, Torah does give the provision for celebrating festivals one month later on an individual basis due to ritual impurity.

But again I am not sure if this is what you are talking about.

iouae
November 13th, 2015, 06:52 PM
[FONT=Times New Roman]This year Pésaḥ began at sunset on Friday April 3rd[SIZE=3] and the apex of the full moon occurred at 2:05 PM Saturday April 4th Jerusalem time.

OK let's examine this one. The moon would be FULL on Saturday night rather than Friday night since the astronomical full moon is 4 hours from Sat night, and 20 hours from Fri night. I would probably have chosen Sat sunset as Pesach, making Sunday the Passover Sabbath.




Sukkot began at sunset on Sunday September 27 th and the apex of the full moon occurred at 4:50 AM Monday September 28 th Jerusalem time.

That sounds correct to me since sunset on Sunday is 10 hours before the full moon making this sunset closer than the next which is 14 hours from the full moon apex.

iouae
November 13th, 2015, 06:59 PM
I am not entirely certain as to what you mean by "postponements." There is one occasion mentioned that Pésaḥ was held one month later on Iyyar 15th due to the fact that the second Temple wasn't ready in time. However, Torah does give the provision for celebrating festivals one month later on an individual basis due to ritual impurity.

But again I am not sure if this is what you are talking about.

This is what I mean. It is taken from....
https://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Mathematics_of_the_Jewish_Calendar/The_four_postponements_of_the_New_Year

"Mathematics of the Jewish Calendar/The four postponements of the New Year
< Mathematics of the Jewish Calendar
The four postponements of the New Year
The first day of Tishri, which is Rosh Hashana or New Year (literally, "Head of the Year"), should be on the day on which the molad falls, 12 months (or if the previous year was a leap year, 13 months) after the molad for the previous Rosh Hashana. However, more often than not the first day of Tishri is postponed by one or two days, following four rules known as the dechiyot (singular dechiyah).

Once the date of Rosh Hashana for that year and the following year have been calculated, we know how many days there need to be in that year. If there should be 354 or 384, the year is regular, so as noted above, so Cheshvan has 29 days and Kislev has 30. If there should be 355 or 385, Cheshvan has an extra day, and if there should be 353 or 383, Kislev loses a day.


Rule 1

If the time of the molad is after noon, Rosh Hashana is postponed to the next day.


Rule 2

If Rosh Hashana would fall on a Sunday, Wednesday or Friday, then it is postponed to the next day. If it has already been postponed to Sunday, Wednesday or Friday by Rule 1, it is thus postponed for two days.

The reason for this rule is that if Rosh Hashana fell on a Wednesday or Friday, then Yom Kippur (the Day of Atonement), which is on 10th Tishri, would be a Friday or Sunday. Since both Yom Kippur and the Sabbath, which occurs every Saturday, are days when virtually all work is forbidden, it would be very inconvenient to have them on consecutive days. However, it is all right for Yom Kippur and the Sabbath to coincide, as then they are only one day.

If Rosh Hashana fell on a Sunday, then Hoshana Rabba, which is 21st Tishri, would be a Saturday, the Sabbath. It is traditional on that day to walk seven times round the Synagogue carrying a palm branch; this ritual could not be performed on the Sabbath.

This rule is often called Lo ADU Rosh. "Lo" is the Hebrew for "no". "ADU" represents the first, fourth and sixth letters of the Hebrew alphabet, and means that Rosh (Hashana) cannot fall on the first, fourth or sixth days of the week.

If these were the only postponement rules, it would be possible for an ordinary year to have 356 days or a leap year to have 382 days. To avoid this, there are two further rules.


Rule 3

If the calculated day of the New Moon is Tuesday, the calculated time is at least 9 hours 204 chalakim, and the year will be ordinary, the New Year is postponed; it cannot be on Wednesday by Rule 2 so it is moved to Thursday.

Molad Tishri of the following year will fall on Saturday at or after 18hr (noon), so by rules 1 and 2 the next Rosh Hashana would be postponed to Monday. Without this rule, the year would then have 356 days. This rule ensures that it has only 354.

A year postponed by this rule always becomes type 4, and the previous year becomes type 7 or 12, depending on whether itis an ordinary or a leap year.

Rule 4

If the calculated day of the New Moon is Monday, the calculated time is at least 3 hours 589 chalakim, and the year will be the year after a leap year, the New Year is postponed to Tuesday.

Molad Tishri of the previous leap year fell on or after Tuesday at 18hr (noon), so by rules 1 and 2 the previous Rosh Hashana was postponed to Thursday. Without this rule, that year would then have had only 382 days. This rule ensures that it has 383.

A year postponed by this rule always becomes type 3, and the previous year becomes type 11.

How frequently is Rosh Hashana postponed?[edit]
If the Molad of Tishri falls on any of three days of the week, i.e. Sunday, Wednesday or Friday, Rosh Hashana is always postponed. Clearly, this happens on average in 3/7 of all years or about 43%.

If the Molad of Tishri falls on any of the other four days of the week, Rosh Hashana is only postponed if the Molad falls in the last quarter of the day. This happens on average in (4/7)/4 = 1/7 of all years or about 14%. Thus in total, from the first two rules, it is postponed in 4/7 or about 57% of all years.

If the Molad falls after noon on Saturday, Tuesday or Thursday, Rosh Hashana is postponed by two days. This happens on average in (3/7)/4 = 3/28 of all years or about 11%.

Rules 3 and 4 take effect more rarely. Rule 3 only affects ordinary years, i.e. 12 in a 19 year cycle. The range of Molads affected is 8 hours 876 chalakim or 5.24% of a week, so on average it applies to about 12/19 x 5.24% or 3.31% of years. Rule 4 only affects ordinary years that follow a leap year, i.e. 7 in a 19 year cycle. The range of Molads affected is 2 hours 491 chalakim or 1.46% of a week, so on average it applies to about 7/19 x 1.46% or 0.54% of years. (The last such year was 5766 and the next is 6013.) Thus only 3.85% of Rosh Hashanas are postponed for these reasons, so in total 61.0% of Rosh Hashanas are postponed.

Leap years are postponed less often than ordinary years, since rules 3 and 4 do not apply. Thus they are only postponed 57.1% of the time. Years immediately following leap years, where all rules apply, are postponed 63.8% of the time; other years, where rule 4 does not apply, are postponed 62.4% of the time."

Jacob
March 30th, 2017, 07:26 PM
The moon is new when the moon and sun rise at the same time.Shalom.

This is incorrect. As far as I know and understand (it), this is incorrect.

Shalom.

Jacob