PDA

View Full Version : Who are they who are condemned already ?



beloved57
November 10th, 2015, 06:38 AM
Jn 3:18

18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

The word condemned here krinó means:

I judge, whether in a law-court or privately: sometimes with cognate nouns emphasizing the notion of the verb, (b) I decide, I think (it) good.

Here in this context the word means :

used specifically of the act of condemning and decreeing (or inflicting) penalty on one !

Its the decreed penalty of God against those ones because of their sins.

Now, who are they that have a penalty of any kind lodged against them by God ?

Its all for whom Christ did not die. You see, all for whom He did die, He took their penalty and condemnation upon Himself, this is so much the Truth that those whom He died for are born into this world as sinners and enemies, already reconciled to God Rom 5:10, already declared righteous Rom 5:19, so it cannot be anyone Christ died for without it being a miscarrying of Divine Justice ! Everyone Christ died for, for them He hath obtained for them Eternal Redemption Heb 9:12

12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.

The word redemption here is the greek word lutrósis and means:

(in the Old Testament: ransoming from imprisonment for debt, or from slavery, release from national misfortune, etc.), liberation, deliverance, release.

the payment of the full ransom-price to free a slave – particularly the redemption of an individual.

Its a having paid a full ransom price,

redemption from the penalty of sin:

So all for whom Christ died, even though they are as other men and women born by nature into the world as filthy sinners, they are nevertheless free from any condemnation from God, and redeemed from any and all penalties due to any and all sin and wrongdoing against God, so much so, that they are born into this World already Reconciled to Him through Christ's Death Rom 5:10 !

So in conclusion, Who are they who are condemned already in Jn 3:18 ? Its simple, anyone for whom Christ did not die !

Nick M
November 10th, 2015, 07:44 AM
Who are they who are condemned already ?

Everyone but you?

Robert Pate
November 10th, 2015, 08:49 AM
It says,

"He that does not believe is condemned ALREADY" John 3:18.

How much simpler can it be?

Nanja
November 10th, 2015, 09:03 AM
Jn 3:18

18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

The word condemned here krinó means:

I judge, whether in a law-court or privately: sometimes with cognate nouns emphasizing the notion of the verb, (b) I decide, I think (it) good.

Here in this context the word means :

used specifically of the act of condemning and decreeing (or inflicting) penalty on one !

Its the decreed penalty of God against those ones because of their sins.

Now, who are they that have a penalty of any kind lodged against them by God ?

Its all for whom Christ did not die. You see, all for whom He did die, He took their penalty and condemnation upon Himself, this is so much the Truth that those whom He died for are born into this world as sinners and enemies, already reconciled to God Rom 5:10, already declared righteous Rom 5:19, so it cannot be anyone Christ died for without it being a miscarrying of Divine Justice ! Everyone Christ died for, for them He hath obtained for them Eternal Redemption Heb 9:12

12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.

The word redemption here is the greek word lutrósis and means:

(in the Old Testament: ransoming from imprisonment for debt, or from slavery, release from national misfortune, etc.), liberation, deliverance, release.

the payment of the full ransom-price to free a slave – particularly the redemption of an individual.

Its a having paid a full ransom price,

redemption from the penalty of sin:

So all for whom Christ died, even though they are as other men and women born by nature into the world as filthy sinners, they are nevertheless free from any condemnation from God, and redeemed from any and all penalties due to any and all sin and wrongdoing against God, so much so, that they are born into this World already Reconciled to Him through Christ's Death Rom 5:10 !

So in conclusion, Who are they who are condemned already in Jn 3:18 ? Its simple, anyone for whom Christ did not die !


Yes, they are the goats. And that's the reason they can't believe on Christ 2 Cor. 4:3-4,
for they are the cursed Mat. 25:41, and shall remain in a condemned state,
under God's Wrath permanently John 3:18; Rom. 1:18.

Christ died for His Sheep John 10:11, 15. They were never under God's wrath at any time.
And nothing can ever separate them from God's Love Rom. 8:39!

~~~~~

beloved57
November 10th, 2015, 09:07 AM
It says,

"He that does not believe is condemned ALREADY" John 3:18.

How much simpler can it be?

Did you read and understand the OP and the points made ?

beloved57
November 10th, 2015, 09:08 AM
Everyone but you?


Did you read and understand the OP and the points made ?

beloved57
November 10th, 2015, 09:12 AM
Yes, they are the goats. And that's the reason they can't believe on Christ 2 Cor. 4:3-4,
for they are the cursed Mat. 25:41, and shall remain in a condemned state,
under God's Wrath permanently John 3:18; Rom. 1:18. AMEN !

Christ died for His Sheep John 10:11, 15. They were never under God's wrath at any time. Exactly, God has already exausted His Wrath for them on Christ ! For them He is 1000% Propitiated !
And nothing can ever separate them from God's Love Rom. 8:39!

~~~~~

disturbo
November 10th, 2015, 09:22 AM
I have to wonder how and why people pervert God's Word to the point of making Christ sacrifice almost meaningless.


So in conclusion, Who are they who are condemned already in Jn 3:18 ? Its simple, anyone for whom Christ did not die !

B57 you always accuse people of not understanding things. I have to tell you. You take the cake, prize, and the whole 9 yards!

1 John 2:2...

He himself is the sacrifice that atones for our sins—and not only our sins but the sins of all the world.

WORLD...

KOSMOS...
an apt and harmonious arrangement or constitution, order, government
ornament, decoration, adornment, i.e. the arrangement of the stars, 'the heavenly hosts', as the ornament of the heavens. 1 Pet. 3:3
the world, the universe
the circle of the earth, the earth
the inhabitants of the earth, men, the human family
the ungodly multitude; the whole mass of men alienated from God, and therefore hostile to the cause of Christ
world affairs, the aggregate of things earthly
the whole circle of earthly goods, endowments riches, advantages, pleasures, etc, which although hollow and frail and fleeting, stir desire, seduce from God and are obstacles to the cause of Christ
any aggregate or general collection of particulars of any sort
the Gentiles as contrasted to the Jews (Rom. 11:12 etc)

https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/Lexicon/Lexicon.cfm?strongs=G2889&t=KJV (https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/Lexicon/Lexicon.cfm?

strongs=G2889&t=KJV)

I have a very difficult time to believe that any Christian would pervert the gospel message as much as YOU by accepting the uninspired teachings of Calvin!

"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.”

Your Calvinist Reformed Theology is an abomination.

disturbo
November 10th, 2015, 09:29 AM
1 Tim. 4:10, "For it is for this we labor and strive, because we have fixed our hope on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of believers."

1Tim. 4:10
For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

1 Tim. 4:10 proves God is the Savior of both unregenerated and regenerated mankind.

Specially means...

chiefly, most of all, above all

beloved57
November 10th, 2015, 12:03 PM
I have to wonder how and why people pervert God's Word to the point of making Christ sacrifice almost meaningless.



B57 you always accuse people of not understanding things. I have to tell you. You take the cake, prize, and the whole 9 yards!

1 John 2:2...

He himself is the sacrifice that atones for our sins—and not only our sins but the sins of all the world.

WORLD...

KOSMOS...
an apt and harmonious arrangement or constitution, order, government
ornament, decoration, adornment, i.e. the arrangement of the stars, 'the heavenly hosts', as the ornament of the heavens. 1 Pet. 3:3
the world, the universe
the circle of the earth, the earth
the inhabitants of the earth, men, the human family
the ungodly multitude; the whole mass of men alienated from God, and therefore hostile to the cause of Christ
world affairs, the aggregate of things earthly
the whole circle of earthly goods, endowments riches, advantages, pleasures, etc, which although hollow and frail and fleeting, stir desire, seduce from God and are obstacles to the cause of Christ
any aggregate or general collection of particulars of any sort
the Gentiles as contrasted to the Jews (Rom. 11:12 etc)

https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/Lexicon/Lexicon.cfm?strongs=G2889&t=KJV (https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/Lexicon/Lexicon.cfm?

strongs=G2889&t=KJV)

I have a very difficult time to believe that any Christian would pervert the gospel message as much as YOU by accepting the uninspired teachings of Calvin!

"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.”

Your Calvinist Reformed Theology is an abomination.

Did you read the Op and understand the points I made!

disturbo
November 10th, 2015, 12:29 PM
Did you read the Op and understand the points I made!

I read it and posted your 'conclusion'...


So in conclusion, Who are they who are condemned already in Jn 3:18 ? Its simple, anyone for whom Christ did not die !

Why don't you simply accept the definition of the words world and whosoever?

iouae
November 10th, 2015, 12:46 PM
So in conclusion, Who are they who are condemned already in Jn 3:18 ? Its simple, anyone for whom Christ did not die !


2 Corinthians 5:14 For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead:

This one verse tells you that those condemned already were those who "were all dead" - meaning us before Christ saved us.

And the first part of the verse disproves your conclusion that Christ died for some, not all.

beloved57
November 10th, 2015, 12:53 PM
2 Corinthians 5:14 For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead:

This one verse tells you that those condemned already were those who "were all dead" - meaning us before Christ saved us.

And the first part of the verse disproves your conclusion that Christ died for some, not all.

Did you read the whole OP ? Yes or No ?

beloved57
November 10th, 2015, 12:55 PM
dist


I read it and posted your 'conclusion'...


Ok since you read it, explain to me what my points were and how i made them ! Then show me how i m wrong !

iouae
November 10th, 2015, 01:04 PM
dist



Ok since you read it, explain to me what my points were and how i made them ! Then show me how i m wrong !


Its all for whom Christ did not die. You see, all for whom He did die, He took their penalty and condemnation upon Himself, this is so much the Truth that those whom He died for are born into this world as sinners and enemies, already reconciled to God Rom 5:10, already declared righteous Rom 5:19, so it cannot be anyone Christ died for without it being a miscarrying of Divine Justice ! Everyone Christ died for, for them He hath obtained for them Eternal Redemption Heb 9:12

The part in blue is where you jump the track.

Nobody is born reconciled to God till they as adults accept Him as Lord and Saviour.

disturbo
November 10th, 2015, 01:12 PM
dist

Ok since you read it, explain to me what my points were and how i made them ! Then show me how i m wrong !

Why in the world would I want to explain TO YOU YOUR POINTS! I already showed you where you went wrong. You disregard the correct definition of the words 'world and whosoever'! AND...

You're a Calvinist. Calvinism is an abomination to the LORD.

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/frankviola/shockingbeliefsofjohncalvin/

beloved57
November 10th, 2015, 01:18 PM
dist


Why in the world would I want to explain TO YOU YOUR POINTS!

That proves to me that you understood them, and then we can begin to discuss them !

dialm
November 10th, 2015, 02:18 PM
Why in the world would I want to explain TO YOU YOUR POINTS! I already showed you where you went wrong. You disregard the correct definition of the words 'world and whosoever'! AND...

You're a Calvinist. Calvinism is an abomination to the LORD.

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/frankviola/shockingbeliefsofjohncalvin/

John Calvin and his followers have a higher regard for the Bible then any other group past, present or future. You don't know what you are talking about.

disturbo
November 10th, 2015, 03:04 PM
John Calvin and his followers have a higher regard for the Bible then any other group past, present or future. You don't know what you are talking about.

Are you in denial of Calvins past?

Calvin believed that executing unrepentant heretics was justified.
The best known example of this is when Calvin consented to the execution of Michael Servetus, a man who denied the Trinity and infant baptism. Servetus burned for one hour simply because of his theological views.

Calvin supporters are quick to point out that the great Reformer didn’t directly execute the man. He even tried to persuade Servetus not to come to Geneva. Calvin also tried to get Servetus to repent and sought for him to be granted a more humane execution (which was beheading instead of burning).

Calvin made this remark regarding Servetus, showing that he believed death for heresy was justifiable.

“But I am unwilling to pledge my word for his safety, for if he shall come [to Geneva], I shall never permit him to depart alive, provided my authority be of any avail.”

During Servertus’ trial, Calvin remarked:
“I hope that the verdict will call for the death penalty.”

That's just ONE abomination. You can see the rest here...

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/frankviola/shockingbeliefsofjohncalvin/

He's your hero!

Bright Raven
November 10th, 2015, 03:10 PM
Those who do not believe the gospel. Get saved.

beloved57
November 10th, 2015, 03:24 PM
Are you in denial of Calvins past?

Calvin believed that executing unrepentant heretics was justified.
The best known example of this is when Calvin consented to the execution of Michael Servetus, a man who denied the Trinity and infant baptism. Servetus burned for one hour simply because of his theological views.

Calvin supporters are quick to point out that the great Reformer didn’t directly execute the man. He even tried to persuade Servetus not to come to Geneva. Calvin also tried to get Servetus to repent and sought for him to be granted a more humane execution (which was beheading instead of burning).

Calvin made this remark regarding Servetus, showing that he believed death for heresy was justifiable.

“But I am unwilling to pledge my word for his safety, for if he shall come [to Geneva], I shall never permit him to depart alive, provided my authority be of any avail.”

During Servertus’ trial, Calvin remarked:
“I hope that the verdict will call for the death penalty.”

That's just ONE abomination. You can see the rest here...

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/frankviola/shockingbeliefsofjohncalvin/

He's your hero!

Are you here to discuss calvins history or to debate the points made in the post , which you seem to evade !

disturbo
November 10th, 2015, 03:43 PM
Are you here to discuss calvins history or to debate the points made in the post , which you seem to evade !

I've already confronted your OP and you're the one avoiding it.

YOU SAID...

So in conclusion, Who are they who are condemned already in Jn 3:18 ? Its simple, anyone for whom Christ did not die !

For G1063 God G2316 so G3779 loved G25 the world, G2889

G2889 WORLD
the world, the universe
the circle of the earth, the earth
the inhabitants of the earth, men, the human family
the ungodly multitude; the whole mass of men alienated from God, and therefore hostile to the cause of Christ

Explain to the forum HOW Christ did not die for unregenerated mankind when the word WORLD DOES NOT PERTAIN to Christians! You can't do it so you accuse me of avoiding the issue when ITS YOU who's avoiding it!

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

I'm tired of your inaction. Being that YOU are not confronting the issue, let me enlighten you about something. The word 'whosoever' is actually the word ALL!

WHOSOEVER....THE SAME WORD AS ALL...

https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/Lexicon/Lexicon.cfm?strongs=G3956&t=KJV (https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/Lexicon/Lexicon.cfm?

that G2443 whosoever G3956 believeth G4100

strongs=G3956&t=KJV)

YOU'VE JUST BEEN DEBUNKED!

beloved57
November 10th, 2015, 03:48 PM
dist


I've already confronted your OP and you're the one avoiding it.

Thats not what I asked you ! Anybody can confront a OP, doesnt mean you read it and understood it ! Now are you going to prove to me that you understood the points I made or not ?

dialm
November 10th, 2015, 04:05 PM
Are you in denial of Calvins past?

Calvin believed that executing unrepentant heretics was justified.
The best known example of this is when Calvin consented to the execution of Michael Servetus, a man who denied the Trinity and infant baptism. Servetus burned for one hour simply because of his theological views.

Calvin supporters are quick to point out that the great Reformer didn’t directly execute the man. He even tried to persuade Servetus not to come to Geneva. Calvin also tried to get Servetus to repent and sought for him to be granted a more humane execution (which was beheading instead of burning).

Calvin made this remark regarding Servetus, showing that he believed death for heresy was justifiable.

“But I am unwilling to pledge my word for his safety, for if he shall come [to Geneva], I shall never permit him to depart alive, provided my authority be of any avail.”

During Servertus’ trial, Calvin remarked:
“I hope that the verdict will call for the death penalty.”

That's just ONE abomination. You can see the rest here...

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/frankviola/shockingbeliefsofjohncalvin/

He's your hero!

The best know example huh? Let's see here. So give us a lesser know example.

dialm
November 10th, 2015, 04:06 PM
I've already confronted your OP and you're the one avoiding it.

YOU SAID...

So in conclusion, Who are they who are condemned already in Jn 3:18 ? Its simple, anyone for whom Christ did not die !

For G1063 God G2316 so G3779 loved G25 the world, G2889

G2889 WORLD
the world, the universe
the circle of the earth, the earth
the inhabitants of the earth, men, the human family
the ungodly multitude; the whole mass of men alienated from God, and therefore hostile to the cause of Christ

Explain to the forum HOW Christ did not die for unregenerated mankind when the word WORLD DOES NOT PERTAIN to Christians! You can't do it so you accuse me of avoiding the issue when ITS YOU who's avoiding it!

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

I'm tired of your inaction. Being that YOU are not confronting the issue, let me enlighten you about something. The word 'whosoever' is actually the word ALL!

WHOSOEVER....THE SAME WORD AS ALL...

https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/Lexicon/Lexicon.cfm?strongs=G3956&t=KJV (https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/Lexicon/Lexicon.cfm?

that G2443 whosoever G3956 believeth G4100

strongs=G3956&t=KJV)

YOU'VE JUST BEEN DEBUNKED!

So if someone can come up with one Bible example of a different world you are going to eat your words right?

aikido7
November 10th, 2015, 05:04 PM
John’s Gospel was written last after Paul and the other three gospels.

It casts Jesus as a theological figure who speaks in long, dense discourses--all about himself and the importance of believing in him.

John is not very historical, but it is heavily theological and mystical.

disturbo
November 10th, 2015, 06:10 PM
So if someone can come up with one Bible example of a different world you are going to eat your words right?

No! I'll just debunk it too! I challenge anybody to give it a shot!

There are several different words for 'world.' If the pre-tribbers and preterist (and Calvinist it seems) would have a sensible hermeneutic and accept the fact that passages like Mathew 24 has 3 different words for 'world' they would finally get the passage right and debunk their own beliefs.

dialm
November 10th, 2015, 06:23 PM
No! I'll just debunk it too! I challenge anybody to give it a shot!

There are several different words for 'world.' If the pre-tribbers and preterist (and Calvinist it seems) would have a sensible hermeneutic and accept the fact that passages like Mathew 24 has 3 different words for 'world' they would finally get the passage right and debunk their own beliefs.

Ok. Then I won't spend any time on giving proof text from the bible on the term 'world'.

Also

I won't spend any time on the execution thingy that you brought up except to say that you and I weren't there so you and I don't know much about it.

And

It probably is the only episode you can actually come up with. So when you say it is the best know example what you really mean is that it is all you got and you don't know much about it. (But the smoke screen is always a nice tactic to use on someone who can be bluffed. I just don't bluff easy.)

disturbo
November 10th, 2015, 06:41 PM
Ok. Then I won't spend any time on giving proof text from the bible on the term 'world'.

Also

I won't spend any time on the execution thingy that you brought up except to say that you and I weren't there so you and I don't know much about it.

And

It probably is the only episode you can actually come up with. So when you say it is the best know example what you really mean is that it is all you got and you don't know much about it. (But the smoke screen is always a nice tactic to use on someone who can be bluffed. I just don't bluff easy.)

Talk about a cop out and then you blame it on me. WOW! Why don't you just put me to the test and give it your best shot!

Nick M
November 10th, 2015, 06:49 PM
Did you read and understand the OP and the points made ?

Now I see one problem with rep reset. This hell bound loser is no longer in the red. Make it happen.

dialm
November 10th, 2015, 06:50 PM
Ok. (The following is a test.)

You gave the best know execution case that John Calvin was involved in.

Give a lesser known case.

beloved57
November 10th, 2015, 07:29 PM
Now I see one problem with rep resent. This hell bound loser is no longer in the red. Make it happen.

Did you read and understand the OP and the points made ?

iouae
November 10th, 2015, 08:58 PM
Did you read and understand the OP and the points made ?

Yes, and here again is my problem with it.

You said "Its all for whom Christ did not die. You see, all for whom He did die, He took their penalty and condemnation upon Himself, this is so much the Truth that those whom He died for are born into this world as sinners and enemies, already reconciled to God Rom 5:10, already declared righteous Rom 5:19, so it cannot be anyone Christ died for without it being a miscarrying of Divine Justice ! Everyone Christ died for, for them He hath obtained for them Eternal Redemption Heb 9:12"

The part in blue is where you jump the track.

Nobody is born reconciled to God till they as adults accept Him as Lord and Saviour.

beloved57
November 11th, 2015, 12:28 AM
Yes, and here again is my problem with it.

You said "Its all for whom Christ did not die. You see, all for whom He did die, He took their penalty and condemnation upon Himself, this is so much the Truth that those whom He died for are born into this world as sinners and enemies, already reconciled to God Rom 5:10, already declared righteous Rom 5:19, so it cannot be anyone Christ died for without it being a miscarrying of Divine Justice ! Everyone Christ died for, for them He hath obtained for them Eternal Redemption Heb 9:12"

The part in blue is where you jump the track.

Nobody is born reconciled to God till they as adults accept Him as Lord and Saviour.

You said yes, then please explain what my points were even though you don't agree!

dialm
November 11th, 2015, 02:38 AM
Did you read and understand the OP and the points made ?

Ok. John Calvin believed that the death of Christ was not in vain. Therefore the Atonement is not in vain.

Your retractors need to show how the Gospel message works for those who reject it. In other words if Christ died for someone who is now in hell then what is their explanation?

beloved57
November 11th, 2015, 02:43 AM
Ok. John Calvin believed that the death of Christ was not in vain. Therefore the Atonement is not in
Your retractors need to show how the Gospel message works for those who reject it. In other words if Christ died for someone who is now in hell then what is their explanation?

dialm
November 11th, 2015, 02:43 AM
Certainly Christ did not suffer and die to send people to hell. They/we were already going.

iouae
November 11th, 2015, 03:00 AM
You said yes, then please explain what my points were even though you don't agree!

"Explain my points" implies a step by step proof.

You were doing fine until the part you made up which I highlighted in blue.

Then I explained that one is not born reconciled to God, but only adults who believe in Him are reconciled to God.

The reason I cannot explain your points is because there was no step-by-step proof of this, most important point.

Instead you just sucked it out of nowhere that some are born reconciled to God from birth and some not. The scriptures you gave to "prove" that said nothing of the sort.

dialm
November 11th, 2015, 03:11 AM
Now I see one problem with rep resent. This hell bound loser is no longer in the red. Make it happen.

You talk this way because you don't have a real answer. Why don't you just light another smoke and have another drink. Lay back in your recliner and watch some more TV? I'm sure that things will get better for you.

beloved57
November 11th, 2015, 03:14 AM
"Explain my points" implies a step by step proof.

You were doing fine until the part you made up which I highlighted in blue.

Then I explained that one is not born reconciled to God, but only adults who believe in Him are reconciled to God.

The reason I cannot explain your points is because there was no step-by-step proof of this, most important point.

Instead you just sucked it out of nowhere that some are born reconciled to God from birth and some not. The scriptures you gave to "prove" that said nothing of the sort.

You don't believe the scripture which stated that believers were reconciled to God by the Death of Christ while they were enemies Rom 5:10!

iouae
November 11th, 2015, 03:31 AM
You don't believe the scripture which stated that believers were reconciled to God by the Death of Christ while they were enemies Rom 5:10!

Rom 5
10 (1)For if, when we were enemies, (3)we were reconciled to God by (2)the death of his Son, much more, (4)being reconciled, (5)we shall be saved by his life.

Here are the steps this is describing...

1. Men were ALL sinners.
2. Christ died for them in their despicable state.
3. Christ cleaned the sinners up, so that these could come close to the Father.
4. Now they are acceptable to the Father
5. They shall be eternally saved by Christ's life given for them and Christ living in them.

dialm
November 11th, 2015, 03:42 AM
What your detractors need to do is stop playing word games.

If
Christ died for everyone
And
The death of Christ was not in vain
Then
Universalism

That is what your detractors, (all of them) are angling for.

beloved57
November 11th, 2015, 03:44 AM
Rom 5
10 (1)For if, when we were enemies, (3)we were reconciled to God by (2)the death of his Son, much more, (4)being reconciled, (5)we shall be saved by his life.

Here are the steps this is describing...

1. Men were ALL sinners.
2. Christ died for them in their despicable state.
3. Christ cleaned the sinners up, so that these could come close to the Father.
4. Now they are acceptable to the Father
5. They shall be eternally saved by Christ's life given for them and Christ living in them.

Believers where Reconciled to God by Christ's Death before they became believers, it was while they were enemies, thats what the scripture says right here Rom 5:10

10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

So that makes you a false witness against the Truth when you say:



Nobody is born reconciled to God till they as adults accept Him as Lord and Saviour.

dialm
November 11th, 2015, 03:48 AM
Universalism is Satanic.

Satan wants Universalism so that he can get in.

beloved57
November 11th, 2015, 03:51 AM
Universalism is Satanic.

Satan wants Universalism so that he can get in.

iouae
November 11th, 2015, 04:41 AM
Believers where Reconciled to God by Christ's Death before they became believers, it was while they were enemies, thats what the scripture says right here Rom 5:10

10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.



I agree with all the above. But what you have not taken into account is what the Bible ALSO says, viz. that this is CONDITIONAL upon belief in and acceptance of Jesus. So although Christ's death and promise is past tense (2000 years ago) the benefits are only bestowed on believers.

You say it is an UNCONDITIONAL promise.
You have to prove it is unconditional.

And your big problem is that some are not unconditionally saved.
So you invented the idea that they must, somehow belong to a group which God damned from the beginning - if I understand you correctly.
These unlucky ones fell outside the umbrella somehow.

Explain that "somehow". Especially as He wills all to be saved. 1 Tim 2:4

beloved57
November 11th, 2015, 05:28 AM
iouae


I agree with all the above.

No you dont, you are deceived and only think you do !

In fact you deny it. You said :


Nobody is born reconciled to God till they as adults accept Him as Lord and Saviour.

That is a lie, Believers were Reconciled to God by Christ's Death when they were enemies , not when they accepted Christ ! Rom 5:10 !

iouae
November 11th, 2015, 06:01 AM
iouae



No you dont, you are deceived and only think you do !

In fact you deny it. You said :



That is a lie, Believers were Reconciled to God by Christ's Death when they were enemies , not when they accepted Christ ! Rom 5:10 !

You ignored my question asking you to prove its UNCONDITIONAL.

Almost all promises of God are conditional. Certainly those relating to salvation. Find the condition in John3:16 and explain how even a God who so loves the world that He gave His Son, will give everlasting life
only to "whosoever.....satisfies that condition" - not all.

And you still cannot explain why some unlucky ones are excluded, when God wills all to be saved.

One verse doth not a doctrine make.

beloved57
November 11th, 2015, 06:13 AM
You ignored my question asking you to prove its UNCONDITIONAL.

Almost all promises of God are conditional. Certainly those relating to salvation. Find the condition in John3:16 and explain how even a God who so loves the world that He gave His Son, will give everlasting life
only to "whosoever.....satisfies that condition" - not all.

And you still cannot explain why some unlucky ones are excluded, when God wills all to be saved.

One verse doth not a doctrine make.

The scripture speaks for itself, you dont believe it. The Believer was Reconciled to God, by Christ's Death, when according to Rom 5:10

10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

iouae
November 11th, 2015, 06:37 AM
The scripture speaks for itself, you dont believe it. The Believer was Reconciled to God, by Christ's Death, when according to Rom 5:10

10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

You are doing all you can do with a one verse doctrine - keep repeating it.

It is the most rookie mistake to form a doctrine on one verse.
Until you ask "What does the Bible ALSO say?" you will blinker yourself to all else.

beloved57
November 11th, 2015, 06:53 AM
iou


You are doing all you can do with one a one verse doctrine

That one verse is clear proof that those Christ died for were reconciled to God while they were enemies, which makes your previous comment false !

This one right here:


Nobody is born reconciled to God till they as adults accept Him as Lord and Saviour.

Thats a lie !

disturbo
November 11th, 2015, 10:09 AM
Believers where Reconciled to God by Christ's Death before they became believers, it was while they were enemies, thats what the scripture says right here Rom 5:10

10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

So that makes you a false witness against the Truth when you say:

You really need to get yourself what's called a 'hermeneutic'. It's quite obvious you don't interpret very well and that's where a 'sensible method of interpretation' would benefit you greatly.

Perverting the Word of God must be your specialty. You need to look at the context of the passage.

NKJV
Romans 5:8-9 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him.

Verse 8-9 clearly shows that Paul is referring to Christians in verse 10.
I like the way the KJV puts it.

For if, when WE were enemies, WE were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

Keep in mind that the context of verse 8-9 are those Christ died for, been justified by his blood, and saved from the wrath to come. So when we look at verse 10 we must consider who or what the antecedent of the word WE is. And that would be those who Christ died for, been justified by his blood, and saved from the wrath to come.

Actually Romans 10 is saying close to the same thing as in verse 8. So let me paraphrase and amplify Romans 10 for you.

When, and if, we Christians were enemies, we (who Christ died for and been justified by his blood, and saved from the wrath to come), were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

Romans 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

Another thing so many Christians disregard is that little two letter word, "IF", and that insignificant looking four letter word "WHEN". But I'll save that to counter another of your many fabrications.

beloved57
November 11th, 2015, 10:10 AM
You really need to get yourself what's called a 'hermeneutic'. It's quite obvious you don't interpret very well and that's where a 'sensible method of interpretation' would benefit you greatly.

Perverting the Word of God must be your specialty. You need to look at the context of the passage.

NKJV
Romans 5:8-9 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him.

Verse 8-9 clearly shows that Paul is referring to Christians in verse 10.
I like the way the KJV puts it.

For if, when we were enemies, WE were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

Keep in mind that the context of verse 8-9 are those Christ died for, been justified by his blood, and saved from the wrath to come. So when we look at verse 10 we must consider who the antecedent of the word WE is. And that would be those who Christ died for, been justified by his blood, and saved from the wrath to come.

Actually Romans 10 is saying close to the same thing as in verse 8. So let me paraphrase and amplify Romans 10 for you.

When we Christians were enemies, we who Christ died for and been justified by his blood, and saved from the wrath to come, were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

Romans 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

Another thing so many Christians disregard is that little two letter word, "IF", and that insignificant looking four letter word "WHEN". But I'll save that to counter another of your many fabrications.

You just don't believe the truth of scripture!

dialm
November 11th, 2015, 10:15 AM
The cat has your voice huh?

Or do you think I can't read between the lines?

These foo foes of yours. They run and hide. Scared little mice. Blind one and all. Absolutely three. Scared but not free. Not free to choose.

disturbo
November 11th, 2015, 10:22 AM
You just don't believe the truth of scripture!

I just don't believe your fabricated 'out of context' interpretations.

OCTOBER23
November 11th, 2015, 11:49 AM
Who are they who are condemned already ?

18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not i

s condemned already, because he hath not believed

in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

SOUNDS LIKE THE POPE WHO SAID THAT JESUS WAS A FAILURE.

beloved57
November 11th, 2015, 12:43 PM
I just don't believe your fabricated 'out of context' interpretations.

You don't believe the truth!

disturbo
November 11th, 2015, 02:18 PM
You don't believe the truth!

I don't believe your fabricated out of context interpretations. Why would you admit you're wrong on a public forum. I'll just keep responding to your fabrications and let the reader decide what's TRUTH.

Bright Raven
November 11th, 2015, 02:20 PM
You don't believe the truth!

You are condemned. You do not believe the gift that God has given to men through Jesus Christ.

beloved57
November 11th, 2015, 03:25 PM
I don't believe your fabricated out of context interpretations. Why would you admit you're wrong on a public forum. I'll just keep responding to your fabrications and let the reader decide what's TRUTH.

You don't believe the truth! Those Christ died for are reconciled to God by His death even when they are enemies and unbelievers Rom 5:10 ! So they can not be condemned as enemies and unbelievers like others are here Jn 3:18 ! That means Christ didn't die for them !

disturbo
November 11th, 2015, 03:35 PM
You don't believe the truth! Those Christ died for are reconciled to God by His death even when they are enemies and unbelievers Rom 5:10 ! So they can not be condemned as enemies and unbelievers like others are here Jn 3:18 ! That means Christ didn't die for them !

Thanks for the detailed study. It was really helpful. I've already confronted that misinterpretation of yours and all you're doing is repeating yourself.

You don't understand how grammar applies to interpretation. You don't understand context. You don't accept the definition of words in the Greek and Hebrew text. You fabricate.

I'm convinced I'm dealing with somebody who's not even a novice interpreter. Which means I'm wasting my time. That is unless I see you put some real time and effort into this.

beloved57
November 11th, 2015, 03:37 PM
Thanks for the detailed study. It was really helpful. I've already confronted that misinterpretation of yours and all you're doing is repeating yourself.

You don't understand how grammar applies to interpretation. You don't understand context. You don't accept the definition of words in the Greek and Hebrew text. You fabricate.

I'm convinced I'm dealing with somebody who's not even a novice interpreter. Which means I'm wasting my time. That is unless I see you put some real time and effort into this.

You can't believe the simple truth of the scripture I have provided! :-)

disturbo
November 11th, 2015, 03:38 PM
You can't believe the simple truth of the scripture I have provided! :-)

You really are a knuckle head. I DON'T BELIEVE YOUR FABRICATIONS!

beloved57
November 11th, 2015, 03:40 PM
You really are a knuckle head. I DON'T BELIEVE YOUR FABRICATIONS!

You don't believe the scripture Rom 5:10!

disturbo
November 11th, 2015, 05:15 PM
You don't believe the scripture Rom 5:10!


Didn't I just say...

You don't have a hermeneutic. You don't understand how grammar applies to interpretation. You don't understand context. You don't accept the definition of words in the Greek and Hebrew text. You fabricate.

You're not worth the electrons I've spent replying to you.

Have fun perverting God's Word.

dialm
November 11th, 2015, 05:54 PM
You don't believe the scripture Rom 5:10!

What you have shown is great perseverance in the face of much ridicule. If you have love in your heart for the elect then God will surely say to you

Well done good and faith servant.

beloved57
November 11th, 2015, 07:20 PM
What you have shown is great perseverance in the face of much ridicule. If you have love in your heart for the elect then God will surely say to you

Well done good and faith servant.

You sound like a conditionalist! My entrance into Glory and Eternal Blessedness and reward is based solely on what Christ did for me and not anything I have done or shall do !

iouae
November 11th, 2015, 08:20 PM
When, and if, we Christians were enemies, we (who Christ died for and been justified by his blood, and saved from the wrath to come), were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

Romans 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

Another thing so many Christians disregard is that little two letter word, "IF", and that insignificant looking four letter word "WHEN". But I'll save that to counter another of your many fabrications.

I would like you to elaborate on "If, when..." please.

disturbo
November 11th, 2015, 09:02 PM
I would like you to elaborate on "If, when..." please.

Bedtime but I'll give a quick shot. I'll use as an example...

John 5:43
I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive.

People use this verse to say the man of sin will come in Christ literal name. A classic misinterpretation simply by neglecting the meaning of the word IF.

If is a conditional participle that introduces something future but doesn't imply that what is said will, or will not, come to pass. It basically indicates a 'possibility.' So people who say that the verse implies the man of sin comes in Christ literal name disregard the meaning of the word.

It does get a little complicated depending 'with what' the word is used. You can look at what Thayer says here.

https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/Lexicon/Lexicon.cfm?strongs=G1437&t=KJV

iouae
November 11th, 2015, 10:29 PM
Bedtime but I'll give a quick shot. I'll use as an example...

John 5:43
I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive.

People use this verse to say the man of sin will come in Christ literal name. A classic misinterpretation simply by neglecting the meaning of the word IF.

If is a conditional participle that introduces something future but doesn't imply that what is said will, or will not, come to pass. It basically indicates a 'possibility.' So people who say that the verse implies the man of sin comes in Christ literal name disregard the meaning of the word.

It does get a little complicated depending 'with what' the word is used. You can look at what Thayer says here.

https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/Lexicon/Lexicon.cfm?strongs=G1437&t=KJV

Thank you.

iouae
November 11th, 2015, 11:19 PM
For if, when we are naughty, our parents treat us nicely,
How much more when we are good, will our parents treat us better.


10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

beloved57
November 11th, 2015, 11:45 PM
Those Christ died for are reconciled to God by His death even when they are enemies and unbelievers Rom 5:10!

dialm
November 12th, 2015, 12:16 AM
You sound like a conditionalist! My entrance into Glory and Eternal Blessedness and reward is based solely on what Christ did for me and not anything I have done or shall do !

Ok. But I want the Father to tell me well done. For that to happen I want to be like Christ. Christ has love in His heart for His sheep. That is what I want, love in my heart for the brethren.

We don't want to be so zealous of His work that we forget the more important part. (Maybe you should take a break? Just to rest.)

Lazy afternoon
November 12th, 2015, 12:21 AM
Jn 3:18

18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

To not believe is to refuse the truth when one hears it from Christ.

Mar 16:15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
Mar 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

LA

dialm
November 12th, 2015, 03:39 AM
The Bible is a big book. All I'm doing is asking for beloved57 to change subjects for awhile.

Here is what I think Beloved57 sees when he looks in the mirror

Robert Pate

Because this is all they can talk about. Change the subject and they plop around like fish out of water.

beloved57
November 12th, 2015, 05:21 AM
Ok. But I want the Father to tell me well done. For that to happen I want to be like Christ. Christ has love in His heart for His sheep. That is what I want, love in my heart for the brethren.

We don't want to be so zealous of His work that we forget the more important part. (Maybe you should take a break? Just to rest.)

Again you sound like a conditionalist, I can't fellowship with that! You are trusting in your self, you don't have Faith in Christ!

beloved57
November 12th, 2015, 05:23 AM
Jn 3:18

18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

To not believe is to refuse the truth when one hears it from Christ.

Mar 16:15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
Mar 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

LA

Those Christ died for are reconciled to God by His death even when they are enemies and unbelievers,refusing the truth of the Gospel! Rom 5:10!

dialm
November 12th, 2015, 06:02 AM
Again you sound like a conditionalist, I can't fellowship with that! You are trusting in your self, you don't have Faith in Christ!

Any self respecting Calvinist can apply the teachings of John Calvin. If you can't do it then you are not a Calvinist. Sorry but it is the truth.

John Calvin was necessary because the Roman church could not back up its teachings.

Put up or shut up. (How is that for a conditionality?)

beloved57
November 12th, 2015, 06:20 AM
Any self respecting Calvinist can apply the teachings of John Calvin. If you can't do it then you are not a Calvinist. Sorry but it is the truth.

John Calvin was necessary because the Roman church could not back up its teachings.

Put up or shut up. (How is that for a conditionality?)

Get lost you don't believe the scripture!

CherubRam
November 12th, 2015, 07:13 AM
Jn 3:18

18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

The word condemned here krinó means:

I judge, whether in a law-court or privately: sometimes with cognate nouns emphasizing the notion of the verb, (b) I decide, I think (it) good.

Here in this context the word means :

used specifically of the act of condemning and decreeing (or inflicting) penalty on one !

Its the decreed penalty of God against those ones because of their sins.

Now, who are they that have a penalty of any kind lodged against them by God ?

Its all for whom Christ did not die. You see, all for whom He did die, He took their penalty and condemnation upon Himself, this is so much the Truth that those whom He died for are born into this world as sinners and enemies, already reconciled to God Rom 5:10, already declared righteous Rom 5:19, so it cannot be anyone Christ died for without it being a miscarrying of Divine Justice ! Everyone Christ died for, for them He hath obtained for them Eternal Redemption Heb 9:12

12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.

The word redemption here is the greek word lutrósis and means:

(in the Old Testament: ransoming from imprisonment for debt, or from slavery, release from national misfortune, etc.), liberation, deliverance, release.

the payment of the full ransom-price to free a slave – particularly the redemption of an individual.

Its a having paid a full ransom price,

redemption from the penalty of sin:

So all for whom Christ died, even though they are as other men and women born by nature into the world as filthy sinners, they are nevertheless free from any condemnation from God, and redeemed from any and all penalties due to any and all sin and wrongdoing against God, so much so, that they are born into this World already Reconciled to Him through Christ's Death Rom 5:10 !

So in conclusion, Who are they who are condemned already in Jn 3:18 ? Its simple, anyone for whom Christ did not die !
Jude 1:4
4 For certain individuals whose condemnation was written about long ago have secretly slipped in among you. They are ungodly people, who pervert the grace of our God into a license for immorality...

Who joins what is not pure to our Holy God?

I see the wording has been changed a number of times in the book of Jude.

Jude 1:4.
4. Because you are unaware that certain men have sneaked in, who are of a ancient order to their condemnation, these ungodly men turn the grace of our God into immorality...

The Pagans denied Yahwah was the only God. The Jews denied that Yahshua was the Messiah. Both of these societies had secret societies. Thus the (Ancient Order.)

Nick M
November 12th, 2015, 08:06 AM
You talk this way because you don't have a real answer.

Answer to what?

beloved57
November 12th, 2015, 08:08 AM
Jude 1:4
4 For certain individuals whose condemnation was written about long ago have secretly slipped in among you. They are ungodly people, who pervert the grace of our God into a license for immorality...

Who joins what is not pure to our Holy God?

I see the wording has been changed a number of times in the book of Jude.

Jude 1:4.
4. Because you are unaware that certain men have sneaked in, who are of a ancient order to their condemnation, these ungodly men turn the grace of our God into immorality...

The Pagans denied Yahwah was the only God. The Jews denied that Yahshua was the Messiah. Both of these societies had secret societies. Thus the (Ancient Order.)

Rabbit Trail!

dialm
November 12th, 2015, 08:14 AM
Answer to what?

Not calling you a fake. You really do think that advertising the benefits of drinking and smoking is ok. Even when the Government says it isn't.

But you got to admit that this Beloved57 is a fake Calvinist? Anyone can read a couple of Internet charts and claim to be anything. This B57 is no Calvinist. That is coming from a lifer. I think B57 is a plant to generate an obnoxious stench. The guy smells funny. Like three day old fish. Throw it out.

beloved57
November 12th, 2015, 08:34 AM
Not calling you a fake. You really do think that advertising the benefits of drinking and smoking is ok. Even when the Government says it isn't.

But you got to admit that this Beloved57 is a fake Calvinist? Anyone can read a couple of Internet charts and claim to be anything. This B57 is no Calvinist. That is coming from a lifer. I think B57 is a plant to generate an obnoxious stench. The guy smells funny. Like three day old fish. Throw it out.

You don't have the Faith of God's Elect, but a counterfeit ! :-)

Nanja
November 12th, 2015, 09:20 AM
You don't have the Faith of God's Elect, but a counterfeit ! :-)


I have discerned the same! :thumb:

~~~~~

beloved57
November 12th, 2015, 09:47 AM
[/YELLOW]


I have discerned the same! :thumb:

~~~~~

Praise the Lord! Whenever someone is concentrating on what we do, they are not looking to Christ and what He did for his people,in that He obeyed the law for them, loving God and our Neighbor as our self ! We could never love our brethren as Christ has loved us and that is the believers standard ! :-)

dialm
November 12th, 2015, 11:03 AM
You don't have the Faith of God's Elect, but a counterfeit ! :-)

See this is what the problem is. I'm calling you out to apply some Calvinism to other subjects in the Bible. So you start your crap. I'm not questioning your salvation. I'm saying you cannot be a Cavinist because you can't apply Calvinism. It is that simple.

Put up or shut up. You have been spewing for a long time. Here let me help you

List all the Calvinist books you have read.

Tell me some real things about The Institutes.

Apply any one of the TULIP acronyms to an Old Testament theme other than salvation.

Do this and we will see how Calvinistic Fishy really is.

Nanja
November 12th, 2015, 11:29 AM
Praise the Lord! Whenever someone is concentrating on what we do, they are not looking to Christ and what He did for his people,in that He obeyed the law for them, loving God and our Neighbor as our self ! We could never love our brethren as Christ has loved us and that is the believers standard ! :-)


Amen, perfectly stated.

Praise Him!

~~~~~

dialm
November 12th, 2015, 11:46 AM
Ignorant people have a right to talk

But how much?

At the University they have very little right to talk.

In church they can say stuff like dada.

But really even this place should limit ignorance some.

beloved57
November 12th, 2015, 11:50 AM
See this is what the problem is. I'm calling you out to apply some Calvinism to other subjects in the Bible. So you start your crap. I'm not questioning your salvation. I'm saying you cannot be a Cavinist because you can't apply Calvinism. It is that simple.

Put up or shut up. You have been spewing for a long time. Here let me help you

List all the Calvinist books you have read.

Tell me some real things about The Institutes.

Apply any one of the TULIP acronyms to an Old Testament theme other than salvation.

Do this and we will see how Calvinistic Fishy really is.

Counterfeit Faith, not that of the Elect!

beloved57
November 12th, 2015, 11:51 AM
Amen, perfectly stated.

Praise Him!

~~~~~

Amen!

Nick M
November 12th, 2015, 11:57 AM
You really do think that advertising the benefits of drinking and smoking is ok. Even when the Government says it isn't.

Well that pretty much settles it. :rotfl: The government that declared black slaves are 3/5 of a human being, gave us Dred Scott, Roe vs Wade....has any moral authority on anything.


But you got to admit that this Beloved57 is a fake Calvinist?
No, he just is not subtil.

Is all of the world in the control and direction of God? Is everything that happens orchestrated by God? These are not rhetorical, they are for you answer with complete candor.

dialm
November 12th, 2015, 12:22 PM
Well that pretty much settles it. :rotfl: The government that declared black slaves are 3/5 of a human being, gave us Dred Scott, Roe vs Wade....has any moral authority on anything.


No, he just is not subtil.

Is all of the world in the control and direction of God? Is everything that happens orchestrated by God? These are not rhetorical, they are for you answer with complete candor.

The Government is an authority, even in things moral. Is it perfect? Ahh no. But it has been pretty good.

As for Fishy. He gets away with it because in someone's sick mind they think it makes Calvinism look bad. But it should be clear to anyone who is not predisposed that the guy doesn't know anything about the subject he degrades.

And no we can't know everything. God holds man responsible for the things done. At the same time God is ultimately. Responsible if for no other reason then the fact that He says so.

beloved57
November 15th, 2015, 12:08 PM
Those Christ died for are reconciled to God by His death for them, while they are enemies in unbelief Rom 5:10, so the already condemned of John 3:18 can't be anyone Christ died for ! That is how we know Christ didn't die for all without exception!

aikido7
November 15th, 2015, 06:15 PM
No one is "condemned already."

Everyone has God-given free will. Jesus says to "knock and the door shall be opened."

Those who ask for salvation can be given it. We don't need a jealous and violent God to have a blood sacrifice. Jesus offered and granted salvation many times long before his crucifixion.

"I desire mercy, not sacrifice."

beloved57
November 15th, 2015, 10:48 PM
No one is "condemned already."

Everyone has God-given free will. Jesus says to "knock and the door shall be opened."

Those who ask for salvation can be given it. We don't need a jealous and violent God to have a blood sacrifice. Jesus offered and granted salvation many times long before his crucifixion.

"I desire mercy, not sacrifice."

False teaching, many people are already condemned John 3:18 !

beloved57
November 17th, 2015, 05:25 AM
The reason why those believe not in Jn 3:18

18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

The reasons are Twofold, #1 because they are not of Christ's Sheep Jn 10:26

26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you

#2, being not of His Sheep, which means their condemnation was not charged to Him, but remained on them, therefore they believe not because they are already Judged condemned, and their constant unbelief reflects that, or evidences that Judgment against them, unbelief is that Judgment, one cant believe on Christ as Saviour if He did not die for them, and He died for the Sheep Jn 10:11,15 !

You see condemnation is being under the sentence of the Law of sin and death Rom 8:1-2

There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

In other words, when the Death of Christ has not freed us from the Law of sin and death, we are condemned !

If Christ died for us, we are free from the Law by the Body of Christ Rom 7:4

4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ=His Death; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.

And one must have been already in Christ legally before He could have died for them, and there is no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, so how can any of the already condemned Jn 3:18 be Sheep for whom Christ died ?

In order for one to be of those who are already condemned, the Law must have already arraigned them and indicted them and pronounces them Guilty before God, which also they remain under His Wrath, Curse and Condemnation Jn 3:36 !

Nanja
November 17th, 2015, 09:19 AM
The reason why those believe not in Jn 3:18

18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

The reasons are Twofold, #1 because they are not of Christ's Sheep Jn 10:26

26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you

#2, being not of His Sheep, which means their condemnation was not charged to Him, but remained on them, therefore they believe not because they are already Judged condemned, and their constant unbelief reflects that, or evidences that Judgment against them, unbelief is that Judgment, one cant believe on Christ as Saviour if He did not die for them, and He died for the Sheep Jn 10:11,15 !

You see condemnation is being under the sentence of the Law of sin and death Rom 8:1-2

There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

In other words, when the Death of Christ has not freed us from the Law of sin and death, we are condemned !

If Christ died for us, we are free from the Law by the Body of Christ Rom 7:4

4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ=His Death; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.

And one must have been already in Christ legally before He could have died for them, and there is no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, so how can any of the already condemned Jn 3:18 be Sheep for whom Christ died ?

In order for one to be of those who are already condemned, the Law must have already arraigned them and indicted them and pronounces them Guilty before God, which also they remain under His Wrath, Curse and Condemnation Jn 3:36 !


Amen, there is no condemnation for the Sheep which were legally in Christ their Surety Heb. 7:22
before the foundation Eph. 1:4-7; Chosen by the Father and given to the Son.

However, the goats remain permanently condemned Jude 1:4; Mat. 25:33, 41, that's why they believe not.

John 6:64-65
v.64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were
that believed not, and who should betray him. v.65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you,
that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

John 10:14-15
I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.
As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.

~~~~~

beloved57
November 17th, 2015, 09:52 AM
Amen, there is no condemnation for the Sheep which were legally in Christ their Surety Heb. 7:22
before the foundation Eph. 1:4-7; Chosen by the Father and given to the Son.

However, the goats remain permanently condemned Jude 1:4; Mat. 25:33, 41, that's why they believe not.

John 6:64-65
v.64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were
that believed not, and who should betray him. v.65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you,
that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

John 10:14-15
I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.
As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.

~~~~~

Amen, So the because in John 3:18 is a evidential because, they are seen/evidenced to be condemned by their believing not ! :-)

Nanja
November 17th, 2015, 11:32 AM
Amen, So the because in John 3:18 is a evidential because, they are seen/evidenced to be condemned by their believing not ! :-)

Yes, exactly. They believe not 'cause they have already been condemned ! ☺

~~~~~

beloved57
November 17th, 2015, 11:58 AM
Yes, exactly. They believe not 'cause they have already been condemned ! ☺

~~~~~

Yes its only given to believe on Christ for them whose sins He bare , the Sheep ! He laid down His Life for the Sheep ! Jn 10:11,15 !

Nanja
November 17th, 2015, 03:00 PM
Yes its only given to believe on Christ for them whose sins He bare , the Sheep ! He laid down His Life for the Sheep ! Jn 10:11,15 !


Absolutely, and because the Sheep sins were imputed to Christ in their stead,
they were never under condemnation at any time, but were reconciled to God
even while being an an enemy and unbeliever, in an unregenerate state.

Rom. 5:10
For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son,
much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

~~~~~

aikido7
November 17th, 2015, 03:10 PM
False teaching, many people are already condemned John 3:18 !Those who are condemned are the ones who are outside the circle of God as Jesus preached. The destitute, the homeless, the stranger, the immigrant, the diseased and the sinful have a spiritual emptiness because their pain is that they are hidden from God.

They lurk around the edges, watching the celebrated table fellowship eating together and sharing good drink. They have not yet realized that all they have to do is "knock and the door shall be opened."

Of course we all have free will and the rest of enacting the Kingdom of God ON EARTH is up to us.

And finally, I really, really, really don’t understand why Jesus’s words I quoted are seen as a “false teaching.”

Jesus also said in Matthew 5:45 that ”...the Father makes his sun to shine on both the good and the evil and lets his rain fall on the just and the unjust alike.”

Bright Raven
November 17th, 2015, 03:12 PM
Ones who do not believe the gospel.

1 Corinthians 15:1-4King James Version (KJV)

1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;

2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.

3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;

4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

aikido7
November 17th, 2015, 03:47 PM
The reason why those believe not in Jn 3:18

18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

The reasons are Twofold, #1 because they are not of Christ's Sheep Jn 10:26

26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you

#2, being not of His Sheep, which means their condemnation was not charged to Him, but remained on them, therefore they believe not because they are already Judged condemned, and their constant unbelief reflects that, or evidences that Judgment against them, unbelief is that Judgment, one cant believe on Christ as Saviour if He did not die for them, and He died for the Sheep Jn 10:11,15 !

You see condemnation is being under the sentence of the Law of sin and death Rom 8:1-2

There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

In other words, when the Death of Christ has not freed us from the Law of sin and death, we are condemned !

If Christ died for us, we are free from the Law by the Body of Christ Rom 7:4

4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ=His Death; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.

And one must have been already in Christ legally before He could have died for them, and there is no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, so how can any of the already condemned Jn 3:18 be Sheep for whom Christ died ?

In order for one to be of those who are already condemned, the Law must have already arraigned them and indicted them and pronounces them Guilty before God, which also they remain under His Wrath, Curse and Condemnation Jn 3:36 !I always bracket John’s gospel because it is largely theological, not historical.

John’s Jesus does not “walk the talk” of the Jesus revealed in the other three accounts. He is markedly different and represents an overlay on early Christian dogma and theology on the historical figure glimpsed in Mark, Matthew and Luke.

John is less concerned with Jesus. He is interested in divining the meaning of Jesus’s life and deeds. The gospel is not written as an objective reporter but is more like an opinion piece from a serious follower of the Galilean.

Nanja
November 17th, 2015, 04:20 PM
Ones who do not believe the gospel.

1 Corinthians 15:1-4King James Version (KJV)

1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;

2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.

3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;

4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:


www.theologyonline.com/forums/showthread.php?p=4522441#1819

~~~~~

beloved57
November 17th, 2015, 04:33 PM
Absolutely, and because the Sheep sins were imputed to Christ in their stead,
they were never under condemnation at any time, but were reconciled to God
even while being an an enemy and unbeliever, in an unregenerate state.

Rom. 5:10
For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son,
much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

~~~~~

Amen!

beloved57
November 17th, 2015, 04:34 PM
I always bracket John’s gospel because it is largely theological, not historical.

John’s Jesus does not “walk the talk” of the Jesus revealed in the other three accounts. He is markedly different and represents an overlay on early Christian dogma and theology on the historical figure glimpsed in Mark, Matthew and Luke.

John is less concerned with Jesus. He is interested in divining the meaning of Jesus’s life and deeds. The gospel is not written as an objective reporter but is more like an opinion piece from a serious follower of the Galilean.

Did you read and understand the points I made with scripture in that post?