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Robert Pate
November 8th, 2015, 10:46 AM
Many believe that it can be. Some Catholics believe that by the grace of God working in a persons life and through the indwelling Holy Spirit, they can live a life of perfect obedience to God's Holy Law and be justified. This is why they are continually going to mass to be like Jesus.

If that were true, that we could become righteous by what we do, then Jesus lived and died in vain.

This is one reason why some people believe that Catholicism is anti-Christ. It does away with the substituionary and representative work that Jesus did in our name and on our behalf, that justifies us and reconciles us to God, 2 Corinthians 5:18, 19.

Christians are called to live their lives before God as sinners. Saved sinners. This is why Paul refered to himself as "The Chief of Sinners" 1 Timothy 1:15. Paul struggled with sin just like we do, "For the good that I would do, I don't do it, but the evil which I would not do, that I do" Romans 7:19. It is the Holy Spirit working in the Christians life that convicts him of sin. If you don't see yourself as a needy sinner, you may not have the Holy Spirit.

We are always pressing towards the "high calling" that is in Jesus Christ, but we never arrive, we always fall short of the righteousness of Christ. This is why Paul said, "As it is written, there is none righteous, no, not one" Romans 3:10.

The Gospel is the good news that Jesus came into the world to do for us that which we cannot do for ourselves. By his sinless life, he offers to God the Father a life of perfect obedience to his Holy Law. It is this life that was lived for our justification, Romans 3:26. That was not enough, something had to be done about our sins, "For he has made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him" 2 Corinthians 5:21.

When God accepted Jesus into heaven we were accepted in him. God now sees us as perfect and complete "In Christ" Colossians 2:10.

patrick jane
November 8th, 2015, 11:04 AM
Philippians 3:14-15 KJV - Philippians 3:16-17 KJV -


Philippians 3:18-19 KJV - Philippians 3:20-21 KJV -

chair
November 8th, 2015, 11:13 AM
There is no "sinful Adamic nature".

Robert Pate
November 8th, 2015, 01:17 PM
There is no "sinful Adamic nature".

"Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned" Romans 5:12.

iouae
November 8th, 2015, 01:55 PM
There is no "sinful Adamic nature".

I totally agree with Chair.

Its not a nature that got passed down. it was the sin snowball gained momentum, resulting in death.

Adam and Eve had a nature to sin before they sinned otherwise they would not have sinned in the first place. Nothing changed

In fact it was God unleashing Satan that caused them to sin. They were doing fine with their human nature till then.

Every person with free will and ignorance WILL sin, and hence will die. Its not in the nature, its in the logic.

musterion
November 8th, 2015, 02:07 PM
I totally agree with Chair.

Its not a nature that got passed down. it was the sin snowball gained momentum, resulting in death.

Adam and Eve had a nature to sin before they sinned otherwise they would not have sinned in the first place. Nothing changed

In fact it was God unleashing Satan that caused them to sin. They were doing fine with their human nature till then.

Every person with free will and ignorance WILL sin, and hence will die. Its not in the nature, its in the logic.

Why, then, did God need to give the believer a new nature by which to walk, as Paul tells us, if the believer's old nature really wasn't that bad? Why tell the believer to be putting off the old man at all?

1Mind1Spirit
November 8th, 2015, 02:11 PM
I totally agree with Chair.

Its not a nature that got passed down. it was the sin snowball gained momentum, resulting in death.

Adam and Eve had a nature to sin before they sinned otherwise they would not have sinned in the first place. Nothing changed

In fact it was God unleashing Satan that caused them to sin. They were doing fine with their human nature till then.

Every person with free will and ignorance WILL sin, and hence will die. Its not in the nature, its in the logic.

Had a nature?

Adam's will was subject to vanity.

He was not deceived, which shows just how vain he was.:think:

disturbo
November 8th, 2015, 02:13 PM
Had a nature?

Adam's will was subject to vanity.

He was not deceived, which shows just how vain he was.:think:

iouae said,


Every person with free will and ignorance WILL sin, and hence will die. Its not in the nature, its in the logic.

I agree with Musterion on this one.

There would be NO LOGIC if there were no NATURE from which to derive it!

1Mind1Spirit
November 8th, 2015, 02:17 PM
Why, then, did God need to give the believer a new nature by which to walk, as Paul tells us, if the believer's old nature really wasn't that bad? Why tell the believer to be putting off the old man at all?

From vanity to hope.

Who will deliver me from this body of death?

The same one who subjected us to it.

The Father of our Lord Yashua Messiah. :)

1Mind1Spirit
November 8th, 2015, 02:18 PM
iouae said,



I agree with Musterion on this one.

There would be NO LOGIC if there were no NATURE from which to derive it!

Define NATURE.

iouae
November 8th, 2015, 02:30 PM
Why, then, did God need to give the believer a new nature by which to walk, as Paul tells us, if the believer's old nature really wasn't that bad? Why tell the believer to be putting off the old man at all?

Adam never "fell". Adam had to put off the old man (temptation to eat) but he did not. Man was created to put off the old man.

When you give a man free will, he HAS to tame that will and bring it into subjection to Christ. The "old man" is what God created. It is not some fallen state. It is man who just naturally wants to exercise his free will, and in so doing sometimes does good, and sometimes evil

musterion
November 8th, 2015, 02:40 PM
Man was created to put off the old man.


The most nonsensical thing I've read this week.

musterion
November 8th, 2015, 02:50 PM
Had a nature?

Adam's will was subject to vanity.

He was not deceived, which shows just how vain he was.:think:

That's what you think vanity means there?

No, this is the most foolish thing I've read this week.

Robert Pate
November 8th, 2015, 02:51 PM
Adam was a person that was created with an innocent nature.

When he sinned against God he lost his innocent nature and became a sinner.

As our representative he brought sin upon us.

"Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men" Romans 5:18.

musterion
November 8th, 2015, 02:53 PM
Adam was created very good, fully functional (in mature form, including his mental faculties), and was not deceived. Since he could choose to eat from any tree in the garden, save one (Genesis 2:16), and chose to sin, he possessed free will. His capacities functioned the way God intended them to function, although not for the purposes of wrongdoing. Had God forced Adam not to sin, then Adam would not have been free. In other words, the dire consequences would not have followed had God been the cause of Adam’s sin. It follows that since Adam was not forced or influenced to sin by either God or a sinful nature, he sinned of his own free will. Thus to [deny free will is to] attribute sin to the Creator [which] means two things: (1) to blaspheme against Him, and (2) to acquit Adam of his sin and responsibility.

disturbo
November 8th, 2015, 02:54 PM
The most nonsensical thing I've read this week.

This too...


The "old man" is what God created. It is not some fallen state. It is man who just naturally wants to exercise his free will, and in so doing sometimes does good, and sometimes evil

disturbo
November 8th, 2015, 02:55 PM
Adam was a person that was created with an innocent nature.

When he sinned against God he lost his innocent nature and became a sinner.

As our representative he brought sin upon us.

"Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men" Romans 5:18.

...and it really is that simple!

1Mind1Spirit
November 8th, 2015, 02:55 PM
The most nonsensical thing I've read this week.

Not if you've read any Hillary quotes.

Hillarical? :rotfl::rotfl:

Robert Pate
November 8th, 2015, 02:55 PM
Sounds right to me, musterion.

musterion
November 8th, 2015, 03:00 PM
Not if you've read any Hillary quotes.

Hillarical? :rotfl::rotfl:

Keep joking, blasphemer.

iouae
November 8th, 2015, 03:01 PM
The most nonsensical thing I've read this week.

Let me walk you through this slowly. Please stop me when I get to the nonsense. Give me the number where the nonsense starts e.g. "3".

1. God created Adam/man with free will.
2. God put Adam into the world with instructions (don't eat fruit)
3. Adam for a long time made the right choice.
4. Then one day he made the wrong choice.
5. He made the wrong choice BEFORE the (nonsensical/non-existent) "fall".
6. Proving his nature was the same before and after he sinned.
7. Thus his nature did not change, the only thing that changed was now he had sinned.
8. What the Bible calls the "old man" is free-will used, to sin.
9. Every one of us today faces exactly the same choice as Adam, to sin or not to sin.
10. The old man chooses to sin.
11. The new man chooses with divine help, not to sin.
12. If Adam had chosen not to sin, he too would have put on the new man, with divine help.

1Mind1Spirit
November 8th, 2015, 03:04 PM
That's what you think vanity means there?

No, this is the most foolish thing I've read this week.

Adam was created.

The Creature was subjected to vanity.

That means Adam.

Why did he follow Eve?

Because she was his in the here and now.

He did what he was subjected to do.

Follow his vanity. :shocked: :think:

1Mind1Spirit
November 8th, 2015, 03:06 PM
Let me walk you through this slowly. Please stop me when I get to the nonsense. Give me the number where the nonsense starts e.g. "3".

1. God created Adam/man with free will.
2. God put Adam into the world with instructions (don't eat fruit)
3. Adam for a long time made the right choice.
4. Then one day he made the wrong choice.
5. He made the wrong choice BEFORE the (nonsensical/non-existent) "fall".
6. Proving his nature was the same before and after he sinned.
7. Thus his nature did not change, the only thing that changed was now he had sinned.
8. What the Bible calls the "old man" is free-will used, to sin.
9. Every one of us today faces exactly the same choice as Adam, to sin or not to sin.
10. The old man chooses to sin.
11. The new man chooses with divine help, not to sin.
12. If Adam had chosen not to sin, he too would have put on the new man, with divine help.

He had a will, it just wasn't free.

It was subject to vanity. :)

disturbo
November 8th, 2015, 03:09 PM
Give me the number where the nonsense starts e.g. "3".

6. Proving his nature was the same before and after he sinned.
7. Thus his nature did not change, the only thing that changed was now he had sinned.

1Mind1Spirit
November 8th, 2015, 03:09 PM
Keep joking, blasphemer.



Romans 8:20 KJV


20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,

Robert Pate
November 8th, 2015, 03:13 PM
Let me walk you through this slowly. Please stop me when I get to the nonsense. Give me the number where the nonsense starts e.g. "3".

1. God created Adam/man with free will.
2. God put Adam into the world with instructions (don't eat fruit)
3. Adam for a long time made the right choice.
4. Then one day he made the wrong choice.
5. He made the wrong choice BEFORE the (nonsensical/non-existent) "fall".
6. Proving his nature was the same before and after he sinned.
7. Thus his nature did not change, the only thing that changed was now he had sinned.
8. What the Bible calls the "old man" is free-will used, to sin.
9. Every one of us today faces exactly the same choice as Adam, to sin or not to sin.
10. The old man chooses to sin.
11. The new man chooses with divine help, not to sin.
12. If Adam had chosen not to sin, he too would have put on the new man, with divine help.


This is not according to the bible.

iouae
November 8th, 2015, 03:18 PM
6. Proving his nature was the same before and after he sinned.
7. Thus his nature did not change, the only thing that changed was now he had sinned.

Let us say you are told not to smoke pot.
And you decide to.
Has something in you fundamentally changed?
Or have you just broken the law and started a bad habit?

By pointing to "6" you are saying your NATURE has changed, which I disagree with.

And again I say "7" is correct in that your nature has not changed. The only thing which has changed is that now you have sinned/broken the law.

1Mind1Spirit
November 8th, 2015, 03:21 PM
This is not according to the bible.

Sure it is.

And when you all lose yer notion of free will you'll understand the beginning. :)

iouae
November 8th, 2015, 03:24 PM
This is not according to the bible.

Pick a number please.

aikido7
November 8th, 2015, 03:29 PM
Many believe that it can be. Some Catholics believe that by the grace of God working in a persons life and through the indwelling Holy Spirit, they can live a life of perfect obedience to God's Holy Law and be justified. This is why they are continually going to mass to be like Jesus.

If that were true, that we could become righteous by what we do, then Jesus lived and died in vain.

This is one reason why some people believe that Catholicism is anti-Christ. It does away with the substituionary and representative work that Jesus did in our name and on our behalf, that justifies us and reconciles us to God, 2 Corinthians 5:18, 19.

Christians are called to live their lives before God as sinners. Saved sinners. This is why Paul refered to himself as "The Chief of Sinners" 1 Timothy 1:15. Paul struggled with sin just like we do, "For the good that I would do, I don't do it, but the evil which I would not do, that I do" Romans 7:19. It is the Holy Spirit working in the Christians life that convicts him of sin. If you don't see yourself as a needy sinner, you may not have the Holy Spirit.

We are always pressing towards the "high calling" that is in Jesus Christ, but we never arrive, we always fall short of the righteousness of Christ. This is why Paul said, "As it is written, there is none righteous, no, not one" Romans 3:10.

The Gospel is the good news that Jesus came into the world to do for us that which we cannot do for ourselves. By his sinless life, he offers to God the Father a life of perfect obedience to his Holy Law. It is this life that was lived for our justification, Romans 3:26. That was not enough, something had to be done about our sins, "For he has made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him" 2 Corinthians 5:21.

When God accepted Jesus into heaven we were accepted in him. God now sees us as perfect and complete "In Christ" Colossians 2:10.With an increasing, interconnected global culture we might just do it.

Of course our instincts in our DNA will always be there, but it is my hope we will be better able to control them. Jesus looked forward to having all of us being “the sons and daughters of God.” People are learning nonviolence, anti-tribalism, anti-fundamentalism, better ways of dealing with conflict and setting up groups that are focused on doing things in a better way.

The bitter irony, in my view, is the fact that atheists, unbelievers and members of Judaism or Islam are carrying out Jesus’s Kingdom of God work--yet they are unable or unwilling to be accountable for it.
Of course it would be against any atheist’s creed to admit they are doing God’s work on earth.

I used to know two atheist families and they raised their children with Christian values--even though they would never admit it.

disturbo
November 8th, 2015, 03:30 PM
Let us say you are told not to smoke pot.
And you decide to.
Has something in you fundamentally changed?
Or have you just broken the law and started a bad habit?

By pointing to "6" you are saying your NATURE has changed, which I disagree with.

And again I say "7" is correct in that your nature has not changed. The only thing which has changed is that now you have sinned/broken the law.

You just don't get it. Adam was told that he and Eve could eat any fruit from the garden EXCEPT ONE. Before Adam took a bite, he had no problem with his or Eves nudity. But AFTER EVE and Adam did what they were told not to do, they immediately were ashamed of their nudity. Would you like me to explain this little miniscule phenomenon to you in Christian terms?

iouae
November 8th, 2015, 03:36 PM
If your father makes a wrong choice e.g. to smoke pot.
Does that wrong choice, or proclivity to make wrong choices (such as to smoke pot), get passed down to your children?

Any geneticist would laugh at that notion.
The worst thing that could happen is that you could set a bad example for your kid.

But you CANNOT pass your bad decisions on to your kid.
Yet Christians swallow the notion that Adam somehow passed a proclivity to make bad choices down to us today?
That is just bad science, and bad theology.
Each of us make our own bad choices, not through some "fallen nature" passed down to us from Adam.
The only one we can blame when we say decide to smoke pot, is ourselves.

iouae
November 8th, 2015, 03:38 PM
You just don't get it. Adam was told that he and Eve could eat any fruit from the garden EXCEPT ONE. Before Adam took a bite, he had no problem with his or Eves nudity. But AFTER EVE and Adam did what they were told not to do, they immediately were ashamed of their nudity. Would you like me to explain this little miniscule phenomenon to you in Christian terms?

Be my guest. My theory is that Satan told them they were nude and that this was something to be ashamed of.

jamie
November 8th, 2015, 03:54 PM
It has to do with how God made the human mind. Adam and Eve were not created with God's Spirit.

Paul explains that the carnal mind is enmity against God for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. (Romans 8:7 NKJV)

Jeremiah commented, "The heart is deceitful above all things and desperately wicked, who can know it?" (Jeremiah 17:9 NKJV)

We put to death the carnal mind by being buried with Jesus in baptism and raised to walk in a new life as a new creature.


Knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin. For he who has died has been freed from sin. (Romans 6:6-7 NKJV)

disturbo
November 8th, 2015, 03:59 PM
I would have never thought that the following verses would need clarification to any Christian!

And they were both naked, the man and his wife, and were not ashamed.

And he said, I heard thy voice in the garden, and I was afraid, because I was naked; and I hid myself.

And he said, Who told thee that thou wast naked? Hast thou eaten of the tree, whereof I commanded thee that thou shouldest not eat?

Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.

And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;

And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons.

and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God amongst the trees of the garden.

And he said, I heard thy voice in the garden, and I was afraid, because I was naked; and I hid myself.

And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;

Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field; In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.

disturbo
November 8th, 2015, 04:02 PM
iouae said,


Be my guest. My theory is that Satan told them they were nude and that this was something to be ashamed of.

When I'm naked nobody has to tell me I'm naked. Maybe a little homework on the verse would help. Otherwise, believe what you THINK is truth.

Need a little help on this one do you???

"And he said, Who told thee that thou wast naked?"

iouae
November 8th, 2015, 04:06 PM
disturbo, what is your point regarding nakedness?

iouae
November 8th, 2015, 04:15 PM
iouae said,



When I'm naked nobody has to tell me I'm naked. Maybe a little homework on the verse would help. Otherwise, believe what you THINK is truth.

Need a little help on this one do you???

"And he said, Who told thee that thou wast naked?"

Who told?
Satan told.
Is there a point hidden somewhere?

disturbo
November 8th, 2015, 04:27 PM
disturbo, what is your point regarding nakedness?

It's the MOST mentioned thing BY GOD in the narrative. It explains MORE than just nakedness!

disturbo
November 8th, 2015, 04:42 PM
Who told?
Satan told.
Is there a point hidden somewhere?

The 'hidden point' is in your inability to look at this objectively.

The way they saw themselves changed. When God asked them, "who told you that you were naked", doesn't mean that Satan told them they were naked.

God told them...

Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

Their nakedness exposed their new SINFUL STATE!"

Satan told them...

...For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

and...

And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked;

So actually IT WAS GOD WHO TOLD THEM!

But that really doesn't matter. It was AFTER their sin that they were aware of their 'NAKED' sinful state.

iouae
November 8th, 2015, 04:59 PM
Adam was a person that was created with an innocent nature.

When he sinned against God he lost his innocent nature and became a sinner.

As our representative he brought sin upon us.

"Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men" Romans 5:18.

Robert

By one man, sin entered the world.
By one Man, sin is removed.

That is what Paul is saying in Rom 5.
Paul is not saying that Adam passed a "fallen nature" down to us.
All Adam did was bring sin into the world, and we have continued that tradition of our own free will, not as a result of something Adam passed down to us. We cannot say "Adam made me do it".

Rom 5

17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)

18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

iouae
November 8th, 2015, 05:01 PM
Their nakedness exposed their new SINFUL STATE!"



A SINFUL STATE came into being, not a SINFUL NATURE.
Nakedness symbolises a sinful state not a sinful nature.

steko
November 8th, 2015, 05:06 PM
Musterion:


Quote:
Adam was created very good, fully functional (in mature form, including his mental faculties), and was not deceived. Since he could choose to eat from any tree in the garden, save one (Genesis 2:16), and chose to sin, he possessed free will. His capacities functioned the way God intended them to function, although not for the purposes of wrongdoing. Had God forced Adam not to sin, then Adam would not have been free. In other words, the dire consequences would not have followed had God been the cause of Adam’s sin. It follows that since Adam was not forced or influenced to sin by either God or a sinful nature, he sinned of his own free will. Thus to [deny free will is to] attribute sin to the Creator [which] means two things: (1) to blaspheme against Him, and (2) to acquit Adam of his sin and responsibility.

Exactly!

disturbo
November 8th, 2015, 05:43 PM
A SINFUL STATE came into being, not a SINFUL NATURE.
Nakedness symbolises a sinful state not a sinful nature.

WOW! Hey! Did you learn that from an online bible degree? Or is that something you just kind of came up with on your own?

disturbo
November 8th, 2015, 05:45 PM
Musterion:



Exactly!

Exactly is RIGHT!

Robert Pate
November 8th, 2015, 08:22 PM
Robert

By one man, sin entered the world.
By one Man, sin is removed.

That is what Paul is saying in Rom 5.
Paul is not saying that Adam passed a "fallen nature" down to us.
All Adam did was bring sin into the world, and we have continued that tradition of our own free will, not as a result of something Adam passed down to us. We cannot say "Adam made me do it".

Rom 5

17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)

18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

Of course he passed his fallen nature to us.

As the first father and representative of the human race he has infected us with his fallen nature.

What do you think that "By one man's offence many were MADE sinners" means?

We didn't become sinners. We were MADE sinners.

aikido7
November 8th, 2015, 08:36 PM
We didn't become sinners. We were MADE sinners.This has been a holdover from the theology of St. Augustine. He was a flagrant libertine who rejected his life after he was converted.

He believed that sin is actually contained in male sperm cells.

His belief is a medieval one that reflects him living in a three-tiered universe of the past.

patrick jane
November 8th, 2015, 08:36 PM
Galatians 3:3 KJV

iouae
November 8th, 2015, 08:36 PM
Of course he passed his fallen nature to us.

As the first father and representative of the human race he has infected us with his fallen nature.

What do you think that "By one man's offence many were MADE sinners" means?

We didn't become sinners. We were MADE sinners.

Paul was drawing a comparison between the 1st and 2nd Adam. One started the process of sin, one ended it.

You say that Adam "infected us with his fallen nature".
Is it a viral or microbial infection? Is it in our DNA?
Or are you taking too much from what Paul said.

What I want you to do is explain the mechanism by which someone's decisions (good or bad) get passed on to succeeding generations.

And in fact Paul is a misogynist in that he does not even correctly identify the first person who sinned. It is through Eve that sin entered the world. But that makes a lousy comparison, Eve with Christ, so he conveniently ignored her for his analogy.

1Mind1Spirit
November 8th, 2015, 09:04 PM
Paul was drawing a comparison between the 1st and 2nd Adam. One started the process of sin, one ended it.

You say that Adam "infected us with his fallen nature".
Is it a viral or microbial infection? Is it in our DNA?
Or are you taking too much from what Paul said.

What I want you to do is explain the mechanism by which someone's decisions (good or bad) get passed on to succeeding generations.

And in fact Paul is a misogynist in that he does not even correctly identify the first person who sinned. It is through Eve that sin entered the world. But that makes a lousy comparison, Eve with Christ, so he conveniently ignored her for his analogy.

Is there somewhere in scripture where God told Eve not to eat?



Adam was the only one given the command.


Therefore Adam was the only one capable of committing the offense.

1Mind1Spirit
November 8th, 2015, 09:17 PM
Galatians 3:3 KJV

We never failed to fail it was the easiest thing to do.

I have a question bro.

If we dont walk where unto we think we have attained did we really attain it?

iouae
November 8th, 2015, 09:19 PM
Is there somewhere in scripture where God told Eve not to eat?



Adam was the only one given the command.


Therefore Adam was the only one capable of committing the offense.

Two gaping holes in your theory are...
Eve told Satan it was wrong to eat - so she knew.
Why did God punish her in childbirth if she was innocent?
And you are sounding a bit like Paul that only men are capable of committing the offence.

No it suited Paul's figure of speech to have a first and a second Adam.
Everybody knows Eve was guilty. Only by misunderstanding Paul can one make her innocent.

1Mind1Spirit
November 8th, 2015, 11:14 PM
Two gaping holes in your theory are...
Eve told Satan it was wrong to eat - so she knew.


Yes she was told what God said by her husband.



Why did God punish her in childbirth if she was innocent?

Why was it punishment?
Did she already know or experience childbirth in some other way?




And you are sounding a bit like Paul that only men are capable of committing the offence.

Nope.

Only Adam received the command.

Adam was the figure of Christ who was to come.

Eve was the figure of the church.

Just like Adam, Jesus has a fiancee, Jesus gives us the commands of God just like Adam did Eve.

Unlike Adam, Jesus did not listen to the voice of his fiancee but stayed obedient to God.

We as the church are to be laboring in childbirth.

Yet our desire to be praised for it goes to our husband.

For without the Holy Spirit there is no impregnation.




No it suited Paul's figure of speech to have a first and a second Adam.

What? You dont believe Jesus was the last Adam?



Everybody knows Eve was guilty.

Yes, of being deceived and cheating on her fiancee at least intellectually with Satan.

There was only one command and it was given to Adam, hey guess what?

It wasn't thou shalt not be gullible.


Whereas Adam loved himself and followed Eve to keep what he desired, and he fully well knew it was temporal not for her salvation.

Jesus the last Adam came to save himself a wife.






Only by misunderstanding Paul can one make her innocent.

One more thing that Jesus and Adam have in common.

They both love what God gave them.

The first Adam died with his wife by being disobedient.

The last Adam died for his wife by learning obedience. :)


We must learn from our husband to love one another as he loves us.

Gullible cheatin' little tramps that we are.:)

iouae
November 9th, 2015, 02:29 AM
Yes she was told what God said by her husband.




Why was it punishment?
Did she already know or experience childbirth in some other way?





Nope.

Only Adam received the command.

Adam was the figure of Christ who was to come.

Eve was the figure of the church.

Just like Adam, Jesus has a fiancee, Jesus gives us the commands of God just like Adam did Eve.

Unlike Adam, Jesus did not listen to the voice of his fiancee but stayed obedient to God.

We as the church are to be laboring in childbirth.

Yet our desire to be praised for it goes to our husband.

For without the Holy Spirit there is no impregnation.





What? You dont believe Jesus was the last Adam?




Yes, of being deceived and cheating on her fiancee at least intellectually with Satan.

There was only one command and it was given to Adam, hey guess what?

It wasn't thou shalt not be gullible.


Whereas Adam loved himself and followed Eve to keep what he desired, and he fully well knew it was temporal not for her salvation.

Jesus the last Adam came to save himself a wife.







One more thing that Jesus and Adam have in common.

They both love what God gave them.

The first Adam died with his wife by being disobedient.

The last Adam died for his wife by learning obedience. :)


We must learn from our husband to love one another as he loves us.

Gullible cheatin' little tramps that we are.:)

What a lovely analogy, creating a type where Eve represents the Church, and Adam = Christ. You compare aspects of their relationship such as Eve was "cheating on her fiancee at least intellectually with Satan" presumably making her a "gullible cheating' little tramp".

Now I personally like your analogy. Especially since I believe Paul wrote the first Corinthians letter exactly as you did, in response to somebody who had said something.

And to make his point, Paul compared Adam to Christ.
And you went further comparing Eve to the church.
And everything you wrote may be a fair comparison.
Or maybe you stretched it a little saying that Eve was cheating on Adam, at least in her mind, the "little tramp".
Paul may even have tried to throw in a bit of levity, since his letter to the Corinthians was getting a bit heavy.

You have perfectly illustrated my point. Sometimes when we write we overdo things a little. We may even stretch the truth to make our point. I very much doubt Eve had any desire for the snake, only for his snake-oil. But to fit your analogy, you need to force things a little.

I believe Paul wrote exactly like you and me. I doubt he sat down to write "scripture". He sat down to write a "post" which God saw fit to preserve as scripture. And just as your personality is etched into your post, so Paul's was into his letters. And Paul was not beyond exaggerating. And Paul was stretching the truth to say sin entered the world only when Adam sinned, ignoring Eve's clear sin.

beloved57
November 9th, 2015, 03:14 AM
Many believe that it can be. Some Catholics believe that by the grace of God working in a persons life and through the indwelling Holy Spirit, they can live a life of perfect obedience to God's Holy Law and be justified. This is why they are continually going to mass to be like Jesus.

If that were true, that we could become righteous by what we do, then Jesus lived and died in vain.

This is one reason why some people believe that Catholicism is anti-Christ. It does away with the substituionary and representative work that Jesus did in our name and on our behalf, that justifies us and reconciles us to God, 2 Corinthians 5:18, 19.

Christians are called to live their lives before God as sinners. Saved sinners. This is why Paul refered to himself as "The Chief of Sinners" 1 Timothy 1:15. Paul struggled with sin just like we do, "For the good that I would do, I don't do it, but the evil which I would not do, that I do" Romans 7:19. It is the Holy Spirit working in the Christians life that convicts him of sin. If you don't see yourself as a needy sinner, you may not have the Holy Spirit.

We are always pressing towards the "high calling" that is in Jesus Christ, but we never arrive, we always fall short of the righteousness of Christ. This is why Paul said, "As it is written, there is none righteous, no, not one" Romans 3:10.

The Gospel is the good news that Jesus came into the world to do for us that which we cannot do for ourselves. By his sinless life, he offers to God the Father a life of perfect obedience to his Holy Law. It is this life that was lived for our justification, Romans 3:26. That was not enough, something had to be done about our sins, "For he has made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him" 2 Corinthians 5:21.

When God accepted Jesus into heaven we were accepted in him. God now sees us as perfect and complete "In Christ" Colossians 2:10.

You believe in Salvation by works, by something man in his adamic nature of flesh does ! You teach the heresy that the man in the flesh pleases God, which is a lie, when in the flesh he believes on the Lord Jesus Christ by calling on His Name !

1Mind1Spirit
November 9th, 2015, 03:40 AM
What a lovely analogy, creating a type where Eve represents the Church, and Adam = Christ. You compare aspects of their relationship such as Eve was "cheating on her fiancee at least intellectually with Satan" presumably making her a "gullible cheating' little tramp".

Now I personally like your analogy. Especially since I believe Paul wrote the first Corinthians letter exactly as you did, in response to somebody who had said something.

And to make his point, Paul compared Adam to Christ.
And you went further comparing Eve to the church.
And everything you wrote may be a fair comparison.
Or maybe you stretched it a little saying that Eve was cheating on Adam, at least in her mind, the "little tramp".
Paul may even have tried to throw in a bit of levity, since his letter to the Corinthians was getting a bit heavy.

You have perfectly illustrated my point. Sometimes when we write we overdo things a little. We may even stretch the truth to make our point. I very much doubt Eve had any desire for the snake, only for his snake-oil. But to fit your analogy, you need to force things a little.

I believe Paul wrote exactly like you and me. I doubt he sat down to write "scripture". He sat down to write a "post" which God saw fit to preserve as scripture. And just as your personality is etched into your post, so Paul's was into his letters. And Paul was not beyond exaggerating.

Like I said.

We have nothing of God commanding Eve.

Sin is not imputed where there is no command.

But since you were not impressed with my analogy, both of them were in the same transgression.

Both of them went after their own temporal pleasure, rather than obey God.


Here's one of the things I find interesting, instead of hiding why didn't they go straightway to the tree of Life.

Answer is, cause they didn't know about it.

Gotta wonder too how come the ole serpent didn't turn em on to the info?

Any ideas?

iouae
November 9th, 2015, 07:25 AM
Here's one of the things I find interesting, instead of hiding why didn't they go straightway to the tree of Life.

Answer is, cause they didn't know about it.

Gotta wonder too how come the ole serpent didn't turn em on to the info?

Any ideas?

Any of us being told that we can freely eat of every tree...
And in the MIDDLE of the garden is a tree called THE TREE OF LIFE...
There is only one conclusion for me and that is that they DID eat of this tree.

Problem was, that one has to eat of it continuously to live forever.
Being cut off from it was as good as not ever having eaten of it after a while.

In Rev 22:2 it is for the healing of the nations. This and that we are told of 12 fruits implies continual eating. Why do spirit eternal beings need healing? Because, like our body needs sustenance to heal, even spirit bodies need "healing". This way they last forever. This too keeps the creation dependent on the Creator, forever.

Likewise all other analogies such as bread of life, living water...
these require ongoing eating - forever. No one, cut off from Christ can live, on an eternal basis.

And I even know what your reply will be. It will contain "lest".

Robert Pate
November 9th, 2015, 08:21 AM
Paul was drawing a comparison between the 1st and 2nd Adam. One started the process of sin, one ended it.

You say that Adam "infected us with his fallen nature".
Is it a viral or microbial infection? Is it in our DNA?
Or are you taking too much from what Paul said.

What I want you to do is explain the mechanism by which someone's decisions (good or bad) get passed on to succeeding generations.

And in fact Paul is a misogynist in that he does not even correctly identify the first person who sinned. It is through Eve that sin entered the world. But that makes a lousy comparison, Eve with Christ, so he conveniently ignored her for his analogy.


Its in the genes and in the blood. We have inherited Adam's sinful nature.

The only solution was to put it to death, Romans 6:6.

iouae
November 9th, 2015, 08:35 AM
Its in the genes and in the blood. We have inherited Adam's sinful nature.

The only solution was to put it to death, Romans 6:6.

Ignoring Paul for a moment, how have any of your bad decisions made it into the genes or blood of your children?

chair
November 9th, 2015, 08:36 AM
Its in the genes and in the blood. We have inherited Adam's sinful nature.

The only solution was to put it to death, Romans 6:6.

The idea is ridiculous. If you are convinced that Paul meant this, you ought to reject Paul. That is hard to do for a Christian, so you end up stuck with a absurd idea.

patrick jane
November 9th, 2015, 08:38 AM
The idea is ridiculous. If you are convinced that Paul meant this, you ought to reject Paul. That is hard to do for a Christian, so you end up stuck with a absurd idea.

Your level of understanding is extremely low.

chrysostom
November 9th, 2015, 08:39 AM
The idea is ridiculous. If you are convinced that Paul meant this, you ought to reject Paul. That is hard to do for a Christian, so you end up stuck with a absurd idea.

we have no problem with paul
paul said that gentiles don't have to first be jews to be a christian
many here don't understand that

jamie
November 9th, 2015, 08:42 AM
And Paul was stretching the truth to say sin entered the world only when Adam sinned, ignoring Eve's clear sin.


Adam could have stopped Eve from disobeying God, it was Adam's responsibility to tend the garden.

Eve was deceived but not Adam.

Adam simply surrendered his authority to Satan knowingly breaking the first commandment.

beloved57
November 9th, 2015, 08:48 AM
Adam could have stopped Eve from disobeying God, it was Adam's responsibility to tend the garden.

Eve was deceived but not Adam.

Adam simply surrendered his authority to Satan knowingly breaking the first commandment.

Invalid comment not stated in scripture !

Robert Pate
November 9th, 2015, 08:51 AM
Adam could have stopped Eve from disobeying God, it was Adam's responsibility to tend the garden.

Eve was deceived but not Adam.

Adam simply surrendered his authority to Satan knowingly breaking the first commandment.


Adam was the federal head of the human race. It was not Eve's sin that caused the fall of humanity. It was Adam's.

Robert Pate
November 9th, 2015, 08:59 AM
The idea is ridiculous. If you are convinced that Paul meant this, you ought to reject Paul. That is hard to do for a Christian, so you end up stuck with a absurd idea.


When Jesus died on the cross all of the old Adamic humanity died with him, Romans 6:6. This is why Paul said, "I have been crucified with Christ".

This is how God has defeated sin, death and the devil.

See Romans 6:6-23.

Christians are now new creations in Jesus Christ, 2 Corinthians 5:17.

iouae
November 9th, 2015, 09:02 AM
Adam could have stopped Eve from disobeying God, it was Adam's responsibility to tend the garden.

Eve was deceived but not Adam.

Adam simply surrendered his authority to Satan knowingly breaking the first commandment.

Like today, men do not keep track of their wives 24/7.

Adam surrendered nothing since he was not around to stop his wife sinning. And Eve seemed to wear the pants - not a sin in itself. Thus she was punished with being subject to Adam in future - meaning, Adam would not fall for that again.

My personal belief is that Adam and Eve were "Laodicean" long before they disobeyed. If they truly loved God, they would have confessed their sins like David, and continued their love walk with God outside the garden. Adam and Eve were indifferent to God long before the non-existent fall so God released Satan to nudge them one way or the other.

iouae
November 9th, 2015, 09:07 AM
The idea is ridiculous. If you are convinced that Paul meant this, you ought to reject Paul. That is hard to do for a Christian, so you end up stuck with a absurd idea.

Paul never said anything more than that it was through Adam that sin entered the world. And with sin came death.

This is no more profound than saying that through the two Steves, Apple entered the world. And with Apple came high prices.

patrick jane
November 9th, 2015, 10:01 AM
Like today, men do not keep track of their wives 24/7.

Adam surrendered nothing since he was not around to stop his wife sinning. And Eve seemed to wear the pants - not a sin in itself. Thus she was punished with being subject to Adam in future - meaning, Adam would not fall for that again.

My personal belief is that Adam and Eve were "Laodicean" long before they disobeyed. If they truly loved God, they would have confessed their sins like David, and continued their love walk with God outside the garden. Adam and Eve were indifferent to God long before the non-existent fall so God released Satan to nudge them one way or the other.

Eve was so fickle. It was passed on.

1Mind1Spirit
November 9th, 2015, 10:14 AM
Adam could have stopped Eve from disobeying God, it was Adam's responsibility to tend the garden.

Eve was deceived but not Adam.

Adam simply surrendered his authority to Satan knowingly breaking the first commandment.

Eve was not yet his wife, so how much authority over her did he have?

OCTOBER23
November 9th, 2015, 10:21 AM
THE QUESTION IS - HOW WERE WE MADE SINNERS.

SATAN INFUSED THAT APPLE WITH HIS REBELLIOUS SPIRIT

AND STRONG CHEMICALS AND HORMONES AND ADAM ABSORBED IT.

--- THAT IS WHY GOD SAID, go forth and MULTIPLY......:luigi:..:baby::peach:

ok doser
November 9th, 2015, 10:52 AM
Eve was not yet his wife..

:freak:

when did eve become his wife?

patrick jane
November 9th, 2015, 10:56 AM
:freak:

when did eve become his wife?

I suspect he'll say when they consummated. :think:

how would he know ?

ok doser
November 9th, 2015, 10:58 AM
why not assume they consummated in the garden?

iouae
November 9th, 2015, 11:32 AM
:freak:

when did eve become his wife?

They believed in a long engagement period, holding out in the hope that someone else would come along.

1Mind1Spirit
November 9th, 2015, 11:41 AM
Paul never said anything more than that it was through Adam that sin entered the world. And with sin came death.

This is no more profound than saying that through the two Steves, Apple entered the world. And with Apple came high prices.

Wrong, it was through Adam's disobedience.


Actually God did not make any promises to Adam for his faith in or obedience to His command.


Adam was subject to vanity, so that ole tree of life held no appeal to his carnal eye.

Matter of fact I bet it looked like some of them bitter herbs he had probably tasted before.


:think:

iouae
November 9th, 2015, 11:46 AM
Wrong, it was through Adam's disobedience.


Actually God did not make any promises to Adam for his faith in or obedience to His command.


Adam was subject to vanity, so that ole tree of life held no appeal to his carnal eye.

Matter of fact I bet it looked like some of them bitter herbs he had probably tasted before.


:think:


Ecclesiastes 1:2Vanity of vanities, saith the Preacher, vanity of vanities; all is vanity. This was Solomons "Theory of everything".

If all is vanity, and Adam is part of "all" how does Adam's vanity change anything or differ from our vanity?

And I know I would have eaten of a tree pointed out by God as "The Tree of Life" especially as it was not a far walk away.

1Mind1Spirit
November 9th, 2015, 11:46 AM
:freak:

when did eve become his wife?

When Adam knew her.:duh:

ok doser
November 9th, 2015, 11:54 AM
When Adam knew her.:duh:

why assume he didn't "know" her in the garden?

1Mind1Spirit
November 9th, 2015, 11:58 AM
Ecclesiastes 1:2Vanity of vanities, saith the Preacher, vanity of vanities; all is vanity. This was Solomons "Theory of everything".

If all is vanity, and Adam is part of "all" how does Adam's vanity change anything or differ from our vanity?

Our subjection to hope.

While in the garden, Adam had no comprehension of it.

Or are you of the Laodecians who had heard of this hope yet think they are rich and have need of nothing?

1Mind1Spirit
November 9th, 2015, 11:59 AM
why assume he didn't "know" her in the garden?

Why assume he did?

1Mind1Spirit
November 9th, 2015, 12:02 PM
And I know I would have eaten of a tree pointed out by God as "The Tree of Life" especially as it was not a far walk away.

Scripture where God pointed it out, please.

ok doser
November 9th, 2015, 12:10 PM
Why assume he did?


21 And the Lord God caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam, and he slept: and he took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh instead thereof;

22 And the rib, which the Lord God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man.

23 And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man.

24 Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.


eve and adam were already of one flesh

1Mind1Spirit
November 9th, 2015, 12:12 PM
eve and adam were already of one flesh

So?

ok doser
November 9th, 2015, 12:15 PM
so i see no reason to assume they didn't know each other - as one flesh they were already married in the eyes of God

iouae
November 9th, 2015, 12:18 PM
Scripture where God pointed it out, please.

Gen 2
9 And out of the ground made the Lord God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

Not only was it "pleasant to the sight and good for food" but it is the only tree pointed out as being smack in the middle of the garden. Now why include that detail. To show that one could not miss it.

1Mind1Spirit
November 9th, 2015, 12:18 PM
so i see no reason to assume they didn't know each other - as one flesh they were already married in the eyes of God

Really?

So then, Sarah and Abraham were married from birth?

iouae
November 9th, 2015, 12:22 PM
Adam was subject to vanity, so that ole tree of life held no appeal to his carnal eye.

Matter of fact I bet it looked like some of them bitter herbs he had probably tasted before.


:think:


9 And out of the ground made the Lord God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

Seems like you lost your bet.

aikido7
November 9th, 2015, 12:41 PM
Anyone who asks for forgiveness gets it. End of story.

1Mind1Spirit
November 9th, 2015, 01:00 PM
Gen 2
9 And out of the ground made the Lord God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

Not only was it "pleasant to the sight and good for food" but it is the only tree pointed out as being smack in the middle of the garden. Now why include that detail. To show that one could not miss it.

You assume much.

First off the pleasant trees were listed separately from those good for food.

Not all trees that are pleasant looking are good for food.

Not all trees that are good for food are pleasant looking.



Last but not least, God only pointed out one tree to Adam.

Genesis 3:17 KJV


17 And unto Adam he said , Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee , saying , Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;


The most beautiful visible tree in the garden.


It definitely dwarfed the tree of life which could have been not so pleasant as well as hidden by the firs and cedars.





Ezekiel 31:8 KJV


8 The cedars in the garden of God could not hide him: the fir trees were not like his boughs, and the chesnut trees were not like his branches; nor any tree in the garden of God was like unto him in his beauty.

iouae
November 9th, 2015, 01:43 PM
Do you believe we only have to eat once of the Tree of Life?

Ben Masada
November 9th, 2015, 01:49 PM
Yes, and that's the main reason why the Law was given. If men obey it, it is only obvious that their nature will be rehabilitated. (Isaiah 1:18,19)

Ben Masada
November 9th, 2015, 01:56 PM
Do you believe we only have to eat once of the Tree of Life?

Yes. That's why man was banned from the Garden of Eden to prevent him from that chance to eat of the tree of life and live forever. (Gen. 3:22,23) That's why we don't have eternal life. And that's the reason why that Divine attribute could not be shared with man.

iouae
November 9th, 2015, 02:01 PM
So one only has to eat once, and Adam/Eve could perchance have eaten of the Tree of Life (TOL), by sheer random chance as they ate different fruits, right?

iouae
November 9th, 2015, 02:05 PM
What do you think was the purpose of placing the Tree of Knowledge (TOK) in Eden?

Ben Masada
November 9th, 2015, 02:20 PM
What do you think was the purpose of placing the Tree of Knowledge (TOK) in Eden?

So that man could exercise the Divine attributes granted to him as Intellect and Freewill

iouae
November 9th, 2015, 02:30 PM
So that man could exercise the Divine attributes granted to him as Intellect and Freewill

To test his obedience? Before granting him eternal life? Because God does not want to create another Satan?

So the order he eats of the trees is NB?

ttruscott
November 9th, 2015, 04:52 PM
...

As our representative he brought sin upon us.

"Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men" Romans 5:18.

To say that he brought judgement upon us IS NOT TO SAY that he brought sin upon us since we all have sinned and by our own sin have become sinners under the judgement Adam brought upon us, a life in him doomed to die.

chair
November 9th, 2015, 04:55 PM
What do you think was the purpose of placing the Tree of Knowledge (TOK) in Eden?

It was there so Adam could eat it. When Adam ate it, he participated in the last step of his own creation, and became different than the other animals.

musterion
November 9th, 2015, 05:14 PM
1. God created Adam/man with free will.

2. God put Adam into the world with instructions (don't eat fruit)

3. Adam for a long time made the right choice.

4. Then one day he made the wrong choice.

The Bible doesn't say how long "a long time" was, but okay so far.


5. He made the wrong choice BEFORE the (nonsensical/non-existent) "fall".

6. Proving his nature was the same before and after he sinned.Here's where your logic breaks down. His choice to sin (for he was not deceived as the woman was) IS the fall as far as you and I are concerned for we are all counted as in him, not in her. This, I suspect, prefigures the believer's positional standing in Christ, simultaneous with his positional removal from Adam.


7. Thus his nature did not change, the only thing that changed was now he had sinned.I'm not going to argue the nature of Adam's nature. All I need to do is remind you that his relationship with God - heretofore perfect - was now damaged by his choice to sin. So it is with our own relationship with God, BY NATURE (take that as literal or as a figure of speech but it amounts to the same thing, for we ALL sin and fall short...where do we get that? From Adam).


8. What the Bible calls the "old man" is free-will used, to sin.:confused:


9. Every one of us today faces exactly the same choice as Adam, to sin or not to sin.Dead wrong. The old man is all one has and is apart from Christ, and the old man, the flesh, IS sin.


10. The old man chooses to sin.Dead wrong. The old man can do nothing BUT sin. That's why the only remedy to Him is the crucifixion...being reckoned as DEAD. The logic of your position, to the contrary, seems to be that the old man can be tamed, trained or reformed to an extent that eventually pleases God.


11. The new man chooses with divine help, not to sin.Dead wrong. The new man CANNOT sin.


12. If Adam had chosen not to sin, he too would have put on the new man, with divine help.Dead wrong. He would have had no need to put on the new man for there would have been no old man to put off.

An offer of reconciliation assumes prior alienation. We -- all of us -- are born alienated from God by sin and so are in need of reconciliation to Him. We -- all of us -- get that alienation from Adam.

Ephesians 2:3. Deal with it.

jamie
November 9th, 2015, 05:15 PM
Adam surrendered nothing since he was not around to stop his wife sinning.



So when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, that it was pleasant to the eyes and a tree desirable to make one wise, she took of its fruit and ate. She also gave to her husband with her and he ate. (Genesis 3:6 NKJV)

Eve's husband was with her and he was not deceived.

Robert Pate
November 9th, 2015, 05:17 PM
To say that he brought judgement upon us IS NOT TO SAY that he brought sin upon us since we all have sinned and by our own sin have become sinners under the judgement Adam brought upon us, a life in him doomed to die.

Because God is Holy he must judge sin. If he did not judge sin he would not be holy and righteous.

Jesus became sin for us, 2 Corinthians 5:21. Instead of God's judgment falling on us, it fell on Christ, 1 Peter 2:24.

musterion
November 9th, 2015, 05:23 PM
Also...


“By ONE man sin entered into the world, and death by sin… through the offence of ONE many be dead…the judgment was by ONE to condemnation…by ONE man’s offence death reigned…by the offence of ONE judgment came upon all…by ONE man’s disobedience MANY [us!] were MADE sinners” (Rom. 5:12,15-19).Deal with it.

1Mind1Spirit
November 9th, 2015, 05:55 PM
Do you believe we only have to eat once of the Tree of Life?


I used to think we had to eat more in the next world, but these days I'm not so sure.

Of course I believe we have to keep eating here.

Adam maybe not cause God had already placed him in paradise.

Thanks for the conversation. :)

1Mind1Spirit
November 9th, 2015, 06:04 PM
The Bible doesn't say how long "a long time" was, but okay so far.
Here's where your logic breaks down. His choice to sin (for he was not deceived as the woman was) IS the fall as far as you and I are concerned for we are all counted as in him, not in her. This, I suspect, prefigures the believer's positional standing in Christ, simultaneous with his positional removal from Adam.

I'm not going to argue the nature of Adam's nature. All I need to do is remind you that his relationship with God - heretofore perfect - was now damaged by his choice to sin. So it is with our own relationship with God, BY NATURE (take that as literal or as a figure of speech but it amounts to the same thing, for we ALL sin and fall short...where do we get that? From Adam).

:confused:

Dead wrong. The old man is all one has and is apart from Christ, and the old man, the flesh, IS sin.

Dead wrong. The old man can do nothing BUT sin. That's why the only remedy to Him is the crucifixion...being reckoned as DEAD. The logic of your position, to the contrary, seems to be that the old man can be tamed, trained or reformed to an extent that eventually pleases God.

Dead wrong. The new man CANNOT sin.

Dead wrong. He would have had no need to put on the new man for there would have been no old man to put off.

An offer of reconciliation assumes prior alienation. We -- all of us -- are born alienated from God by sin and so are in need of reconciliation to Him. We -- all of us -- get that alienation from Adam.

Ephesians 2:3. Deal with it.

Not training, but fighting and striving to apprehend.

That's why Paul said he died daily.

1Mind1Spirit
November 9th, 2015, 06:10 PM
It was there so Adam could eat it. When Adam ate it, he participated in the last step of his own creation, and became different than the other animals.

Yeah right.

He was already different, that's why God formed the woman for him.

The animals couldn't cut the mustard.

patrick jane
November 9th, 2015, 06:19 PM
So that man could exercise the Divine attributes granted to him as Intellect and Freewill

Yeah, I think satan said the same thing - get behind me

1Mind1Spirit
November 9th, 2015, 06:33 PM
So when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, that it was pleasant to the eyes and a tree desirable to make one wise, she took of its fruit and ate. She also gave to her husband with her and he ate. (Genesis 3:6 NKJV)

Eve's husband was with her and he was not deceived.

Scripture hanky panky.

Adam called her the woman you gave me, not my wife.

patrick jane
November 9th, 2015, 06:35 PM
Scripture hanky panky.

Adam called her the woman you gave me, not my wife.

That's right, she was just single and available.

1Mind1Spirit
November 9th, 2015, 06:42 PM
That's right, she was just single and available.

That's the way the serpent had it figgered.:devil:

Evidently Adam too before his eyes were opened.:shocked:

patrick jane
November 9th, 2015, 06:49 PM
That's the way the serpent had it figgered.:devil:

Evidently Adam too before his eyes were opened.:shocked:

Do you think they weren't supposed to multiply before until they ate the fruit ?

1Mind1Spirit
November 9th, 2015, 07:01 PM
Do you think they weren't supposed to multiply before until they ate the fruit ?

If God intended them to multiply in the garden then that's what would have happened.:)

Their eyes were opened in the garden.

musterion
November 9th, 2015, 07:57 PM
Genesis 1:29. This was said in the garden, before the Fall. He later told Eve that He would greatly increase her pain at childbirth.

Angel4Truth
November 9th, 2015, 08:35 PM
Scripture hanky panky.

Adam called her the woman you gave me, not my wife.

yes, like a coward laying blame on God, and then her for what he freely chose to do.

1Mind1Spirit
November 9th, 2015, 08:53 PM
Genesis 1:29. This was said in the garden, before the Fall.


What fall?



Romans 8:20 KJV


20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,





He later told Eve that He would greatly increase her pain at childbirth.


No he said he would multiply the sorrow, the shameful sorrow brought on by her vanity.

She would lie beneath the man during conception and her desire to rule would go to her husband.


Nice try though.:)

patrick jane
November 9th, 2015, 09:13 PM
What fall?



Romans 8:20 KJV


20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,


Women, I tell ya. :shocked:




No he said he would multiply the sorrow, the shameful sorrow brought on by her vanity.

She would lie beneath the man during conception and her desire to rule would go to her husband.


Nice try though.:)

Watch it now

1Mind1Spirit
November 9th, 2015, 09:32 PM
yes, like a coward laying blame on God, and then her for what he freely chose to do.

That's what vanity will do.

Course yer gonna have to explain how Adam freely chose anything bein' subjected to vanity and all. :rapture:

Angel4Truth
November 9th, 2015, 09:34 PM
That's what vanity will do.

Course yer gonna have to explain how Adam freely chose anything bein' subjected to vanity and all. :rapture:

Do you often blame others when you choose to sin?

Show me how she shoved it down his throat.

Also was God wrong when sin was attributed to entering the world though Adam? Should it not say Eve according to you?

iouae
November 9th, 2015, 09:42 PM
Rom 5

18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

Paul is making a comparison between Adam and Christ.
By one man, sin came into the world, by another sin was removed from the world.

Paul is NOT saying that Adam influences my own free-will decisions today.
Paul is NOT saying that Adam's nature influences me today.
Paul is NOT saying that Adam's guilt has passed down to me today.
Paul is NOT saying that Adam sentenced all mankind to sin and death from then on.

The only thing Adam did was to bring sin into the world.
Adam brought thorns, labour and labour pains into the world.

If Adam had not sinned, someone else would have. Turns out it was not Adam but Eve who brought sin into the world.

It was INEVITABLE, man being what he is, that man at some time after creation, would sin. Just happens that Adam and Eve did not hold out too long before sinning.

I completely reject the idea that what any parent does has lasting consequences through generations - that his poor choices somehow get ingrained in his children's genes. Scientifically I don't think that is possible.

Yes there are generational curses whereby God may curse somebody's line. But are we saying that God cursed Adams children? That sounds ridiculous. That would be to curse (and doom and make more difficult) His own project, which was to save mankind.

iouae
November 9th, 2015, 09:51 PM
That's what vanity will do.

Course yer gonna have to explain how Adam freely chose anything bein' subjected to vanity and all. :rapture:

I have a feeling this is your generic answer to all questions ;)

So let us test your answer. What do you say being subject(ed) to vanity means?

I say it means everything we do is transient, short-lived, because it disappears after we die. That is what Solomon meant when he said "all is vanity".

So I see your answer that Adam was subject to vanity as having no bearing on Adam's choices.

How does Adam being made mortal make him unable to choose wisely?

iouae
November 9th, 2015, 09:56 PM
Do you often blame others when you choose to sin?

Show me how she shoved it down his throat.

Also was God wrong when sin was attributed to entering the world though Adam? Should it not say Eve according to you?

God was not wrong. Paul was wrong. He was being a bit of a misogynist not to attribute sin to Eve. Paul was intent on cramming everything into his 1st Adam, 2nd Adam analogy, that he ignored what the woman did as being of no consequence.

Angel4Truth
November 9th, 2015, 10:02 PM
God was not wrong. Paul was wrong. He was being a bit of a misogynist not to attribute sin to Eve. Paul was intent on cramming everything into his 1st Adam, 2nd Adam analogy, that he ignored what the woman did as being of no consequence.

A misogynist would be the first to attribute being deceived as willful sin, especially when it came to a woman.

Better than also claiming either God or Paul was wrong, how about admitting you might be wrong?

iouae
November 9th, 2015, 10:20 PM
The Bible doesn't say how long "a long time" was, but okay so far.
Here's where your logic breaks down. His choice to sin (for he was not deceived as the woman was) IS the fall as far as you and I are concerned for we are all counted as in him, not in her. This, I suspect, prefigures the believer's positional standing in Christ, simultaneous with his positional removal from Adam.



OK so Adam chose wrong. Why make this sound like a switch clicked in the universe from "all righteous" to "all sinners"? There were only two people and they represented all humanity in that all humanity from that time on has been in the sinful camp.

But that is a far cry from blaming Adam for my sin. There is no connection.



I'm not going to argue the nature of Adam's nature. All I need to do is remind you that his relationship with God - heretofore perfect - was now damaged by his choice to sin. So it is with our own relationship with God, BY NATURE (take that as literal or as a figure of speech but it amounts to the same thing, for we ALL sin and fall short...where do we get that? From Adam).


No we don't. All we got from Adam were our genes, and a bad example, just like all of us pass on to our own offspring.




Dead wrong. The old man is all one has and is apart from Christ, and the old man, the flesh, IS sin.


How can the flesh of itself be sin? I have eaten some good flesh. Is that also sin? Adam was made mortal/flesh. By your logic, Adam was made sin, by God.




Dead wrong. The old man can do nothing BUT sin.


Not so. Adam, made of flesh, lived without sin for a while.
Every day, pagans love their children and do noble things, which are not sin. The problem is that even with one sin, and no Christ, the wages of sin is death. But please don't give be some story that my eyes can see is false.




That's why the only remedy to Him is the crucifixion...being reckoned as DEAD. The logic of your position, to the contrary, seems to be that the old man can be tamed, trained or reformed to an extent that eventually pleases God.


You do realise that "old man" is an analogy for our past self making sinful choices? It gets, by analogy, drowned at baptism.

Walking with Christ, we make better choices as the "new man".
But the "old man" rears its ugly head when someone cuts us off in traffic. It is only by analogy "dead". Our past bad habits come back to haunt us under pressure.



Dead wrong. The new man CANNOT sin.


Why do you think we pray "forgive us our trespasses as we..." if the new man CANNOT sin? Are you saying we CAN and DO sin, but God forgives this? But paleeese don't say you cannot sin.





We -- all of us -- get that alienation from Adam.


Again, not so. God had a fine relationship with Abel.
We -- all of us -- get that alienation from SINNING OURSELVES.

iouae
November 9th, 2015, 10:26 PM
A misogynist would be the first to attribute being deceived as willful sin, especially when it came to a woman.

Better than also claiming either God or Paul was wrong, how about admitting you might be wrong?

I read the original story, as well as Paul's retelling of it.
No, I am not wrong, Eve sinned first. I am quite sure of that.

chair
November 9th, 2015, 10:33 PM
Because God is Holy he must judge sin. If he did not judge sin he would not be holy and righteous.

Jesus became sin for us, 2 Corinthians 5:21. Instead of God's judgment falling on us, it fell on Christ, 1 Peter 2:24.

So, your god is incapable of forgiveness. But human sacrifice can help placate him

Did I get this right?.

patrick jane
November 9th, 2015, 10:34 PM
OK so Adam chose wrong. Why make this sound like a switch clicked in the universe from "all righteous" to "all sinners"? There were only two people and they represented all humanity in that all humanity from that time on has been in the sinful camp.

But that is a far cry from blaming Adam for my sin. There is no connection.





That's why monks and hermits live in a cave, so they can't sin.

iouae
November 9th, 2015, 10:40 PM
That's why monks and hermits live in a cave, so they can't sin.

I have a different reason for wanting to live in a cave - to escape all the stuff falling to earth which Rev talks about. I am a doomsday prepper at heart, without the preps :)

iouae
November 9th, 2015, 10:47 PM
So, your god is incapable of forgiveness. But human sacrifice can help placate him

Did I get this right?.

No. Let's suppose you see your daughter sick and suffering in bed. You wish it could be you in her stead, so that she could be happily running around outside. That is what God feels, compassion for His suffering children. So He sent Christ to suffer in their stead, so that we can be happily running around, as we do today.

It has nothing to do with God needing placation.
It is about God wishing to show mercy by changing places with our suffering.

patrick jane
November 9th, 2015, 10:58 PM
So, your god is incapable of forgiveness. But human sacrifice can help placate him

Did I get this right?.

1 John 2:2 KJV - 1 John 4:10 KJV - Ephesians 1:7 KJV -


Our God forgives

1Mind1Spirit
November 9th, 2015, 11:03 PM
Do you often blame others when you choose to sin?


No, I know why I do it.

Adam and Eve didn't.




Show me how she shoved it down his throat.

She didn't have to.

He wanted her to dig him too.



Also was God wrong when sin was attributed to entering the world though Adam?

Course not, Adam was the one commanded not to eat.


Should it not say Eve according to you?

No, you should really go back a few pages and read what I have said.

I think you might be surprised.

Angel4Truth
November 9th, 2015, 11:11 PM
No, I know why I do it.

Adam and Eve didn't.....


Course not, Adam was the one commanded not to eat.

jamie
November 9th, 2015, 11:26 PM
Scripture hanky panky.

Adam called her the woman you gave me, not my wife.



And they heard the sound of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day and Adam and his wife... (Genesis 3:8 NKJV)

jamie
November 9th, 2015, 11:40 PM
But that is a far cry from blaming Adam for my sin. There is no connection.


The woman was deceived and sinned inadvertently. Adam was not deceived and chose to sin.

Because of Adam's willful sin God has appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment (Hebrews 9:27 NKJV).

Jesus died to redeem Adam from his sin as well as redeeming us from our sin.

1Mind1Spirit
November 10th, 2015, 12:01 AM
I have a feeling this is your generic answer to all questions ;)

So let us test your answer. What do you say being subject(ed) to vanity means?

I say it means everything we do is transient, short-lived, because it disappears after we die. That is what Solomon meant when he said "all is vanity".

So I see your answer that Adam was subject to vanity as having no bearing on Adam's choices.

How does Adam being made mortal make him unable to choose wisely?

Adam was created flesh.

Sin is in the flesh.

Adams spirit could only search himself.

Therefore Adam was enslaved to himself.

In this state, Adam had no more ability to perform that which is good than Paul did.

Not only that, he didn't want to.

Until the spirit of God comes to commune with our spirit one cannot know or love God.

iouae
November 10th, 2015, 12:04 AM
Because of Adam's willful sin God has appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment (Hebrews 9:27 NKJV).



Adam's sin got all mankind cut off from the Tree of Life.

But one speculates what would have happened if Adam and Eve did not sin. At some stage one of their descendants would have sinned. How would this have played out? Would all have been cut off from the TOL from then on, or only those who sinned? Would we have had some living in Eden, and some outside Eden?

patrick jane
November 10th, 2015, 12:07 AM
Adam was created flesh.

Sin is in the flesh.

Adams spirit could only search himself.

Therefore Adam was enslaved to himself.

In this state, Adam had no more ability to perform that which is good than Paul did.

Eve was just a typical woman.

Not only that, he didn't want to.

Until the spirit of God comes to commune with our spirit one cannot know or love God.


interesting

iouae
November 10th, 2015, 12:12 AM
Adam was created flesh.

Sin is in the flesh.

Adams spirit could only search himself.

Therefore Adam was enslaved to himself.

In this state, Adam had no more ability to perform that which is good than Paul did.

Not only that, he didn't want to.

Until the spirit of God comes to commune with our spirit one cannot know or love God.

Thank you for this elaboration.

It sounds reasonable.

1Mind1Spirit
November 10th, 2015, 12:16 AM
And they heard the sound of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day and Adam and his wife... (Genesis 3:8 NKJV)

Bad translation of the Hebrew.

It wasn't until she received his seed that he knew his wife.

Guess what?

Hadn't happened yet.

Kinda screws up the serpent seed doctrine hunh?

iouae
November 10th, 2015, 12:24 AM
Bad translation of the Hebrew.

It wasn't until she received his seed that he knew his wife.

Guess what?

Hadn't happened yet.

Kinda screws up the serpent seed doctrine hunh?

I honestly do not know how anyone can think that Adam and Eve were not married from day 1 (or should I say day 6/Friday). Of course they were. They were naked and in love. There is ZERO doubt in my mind what happened Friday night, or shortly thereafter, with God's full blessing. God even encouraged them to be fruitful and multiply. For God to say this proves they were "married" by default.

1Mind1Spirit
November 10th, 2015, 12:54 AM
What fall?



Romans 8:20 KJV


20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,







No he said he would multiply the sorrow, the shameful sorrow brought on by her vanity.

She would lie beneath the man during conception and her desire to rule would go to her husband.


Nice try though.:)

Bump.

Not labor pains.

Multiplied sorrow.



Genesis 3:16 KJV


16 Unto the woman he said , I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.

musterion
November 10th, 2015, 03:56 AM
How can the flesh of itself be sin? I have eaten some good flesh

Paul uses the word more than one way. You're too ignorant to discuss this with further.

musterion
November 10th, 2015, 03:59 AM
We -- all of us -- get that alienation from SINNING OURSELVES.

Fool.

“By ONE man’s disobedience MANY [us!] were MADE sinners” (Rom. 5:12,15-19).

iouae
November 10th, 2015, 06:42 AM
Fool.

“By ONE man’s disobedience MANY [us!] were MADE sinners” (Rom. 5:12,15-19).


Rom 5
12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, ...Adam sinned

... and death by sin; ... Adam died

and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:..

in like manner all sinned and all died.

Now wasn't that easy :)

WonderfulLordJesus
November 10th, 2015, 08:56 AM
Many believe that it can be. Some Catholics believe that by the grace of God working in a persons life and through the indwelling Holy Spirit, they can live a life of perfect obedience to God's Holy Law and be justified. This is why they are continually going to mass to be like Jesus.

If that were true, that we could become righteous by what we do, then Jesus lived and died in vain.


Exactly so, and an important point with regard to humility and proper repentance towards God, knowing our place, God only Who is truly good, of perfect holiness. Romans 7 is clear on the predicament of being in the flesh, no matter our best efforts. That sinful flesh must perish, must be changed, to be brought into glory. The corruption of the flesh cannot be rehabilitated, cannot be wholly perfected, is a body of death, Roman 7:24.

1 Corinthians 1:29 That no flesh should glory in his presence.

1 Corinthians 15

42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.
48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

Galatians 2:21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

chair
November 10th, 2015, 09:32 AM
Rom 5
12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, ...Adam sinned

... and death by sin; ... Adam died

and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:..

in like manner all sinned and all died.

Now wasn't that easy :)

Yep. It shows quite easily that Paul had some lousy ideas.

relaff
November 10th, 2015, 02:40 PM
Like I said.

We have nothing of God commanding Eve.

Sin is not imputed where there is no command.

Any ideas?

I see at least three possible arguments refuting that.

1. Scripture doesn't have to say it explicitly, if it does so implicitly and says nothing to the contrary (the devil told Eve, she didn't object)

2. It is all part of God's great plan. He knew man is sinful and therefore this had to happen.

3. God wouldn't set up Eve like that. If she hadn't know, he wouldn't have punished her.

Ok, shoot me ;-)

jamie
November 10th, 2015, 03:40 PM
Bad translation of the Hebrew.

It wasn't until she received his seed that he knew his wife.

Guess what?

Hadn't happened yet.

Kinda screws up the serpent seed doctrine hunh?



And Adam said: "This is now bone of my bones and flesh of my flesh; she shall be called Woman because she was taken out of Man."

Therefore a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife and they shall become one flesh. And they were both naked, the man and his wife, and were not ashamed. (Genesis 2:23-25 NKJV)

jamie
November 10th, 2015, 03:54 PM
Adam's sin got all mankind cut off from the Tree of Life.

But one speculates what would have happened if Adam and Eve did not sin. At some stage one of their descendants would have sinned. How would this have played out? Would all have been cut off from the TOL from then on, or only those who sinned? Would we have had some living in Eden, and some outside Eden?


Adam didn't have God's Spirit. If he had he wouldn't need the tree of life. Adam was carnal and mortal.


Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. (Romans 8:7 NKJV)

Ktoyou
November 10th, 2015, 03:59 PM
I totally agree with Chair.

Its not a nature that got passed down. it was the sin snowball gained momentum, resulting in death.

Adam and Eve had a nature to sin before they sinned otherwise they would not have sinned in the first place. Nothing changed

In fact it was God unleashing Satan that caused them to sin. They were doing fine with their human nature till then.

Every person with free will and ignorance WILL sin, and hence will die. Its not in the nature, its in the logic.
Another "God did it" post.

jamie
November 10th, 2015, 06:14 PM
Actually Satan is quite beneficial to us.

1Mind1Spirit
November 10th, 2015, 11:31 PM
I see at least three possible arguments refuting that.

1. Scripture doesn't have to say it explicitly, if it does so implicitly and says nothing to the contrary (the devil told Eve, she didn't object)

2. It is all part of God's great plan. He knew man is sinful and therefore this had to happen.

3. God wouldn't set up Eve like that. If she hadn't know, he wouldn't have punished her.

Ok, shoot me ;-)

Like I asked earlier and expounded the point all through this thread, how was it punishment?

She hadn't been promised some alternative style of child bearing.

The only thing punished was her vanity.

Correction has a way of doing that. :)

1Mind1Spirit
November 10th, 2015, 11:37 PM
And Adam said: "This is now bone of my bones and flesh of my flesh; she shall be called Woman because she was taken out of Man."

Therefore a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife and they shall become one flesh. And they were both naked, the man and his wife, and were not ashamed. (Genesis 2:23-25 NKJV)

Prophecy, hardhead.:think:

They didn't know they were naked.

patrick jane
November 10th, 2015, 11:42 PM
Prophecy, hardhead.:think:

They didn't know they were naked.

good points Ian !!

1Mind1Spirit
November 10th, 2015, 11:55 PM
Adam didn't have God's Spirit. If he had he wouldn't need the tree of life. Adam was carnal and mortal.


Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. (Romans 8:7 NKJV)

:thumb: :)

patrick jane
November 11th, 2015, 12:01 AM
:thumb: :)

then what chance did we have ?

iouae
November 11th, 2015, 12:08 AM
Adam didn't have God's Spirit. If he had he wouldn't need the tree of life. Adam was carnal and mortal.


Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. (Romans 8:7 NKJV)

Even spirit beings need to eat continually of the Tree of Life. How much more so carnal Adam?

And Rev 22 is a mirror image of Gen 2.
They all start in Eden, eating the TOL,
They all end in Eden, eating the TOL.

And eating is never a once off process.

Revelation 2:7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.

Revelation 22:2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.

Revelation 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

jamie
November 11th, 2015, 09:17 AM
Prophecy, hardhead.:think:

They didn't know they were naked.


Hardhead? Really? All I did is quote Moses.

jamie
November 11th, 2015, 09:27 AM
Revelation 22:2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.


...by whose stripes you were healed. ( 1 Peter 2:24 NKJV)

It's by Jesus' broken body that people are healed. The tree of life is a symbol of Jesus Christ.

iouae
November 11th, 2015, 09:29 AM
...by whose stripes you were healed. ( 1 Peter 2:24 NKJV)

It's by Jesus' broken body that people are healed. The tree of life is a symbol of Jesus Christ.


Revelation 22:2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.

A description as detailed as this is literal.

jamie
November 11th, 2015, 09:32 AM
...the tree of life, which bore twelve fruits... (Rev 22:2 NKJV)

The twelve fruits are the twelve fruits of the Holy Spirit.


I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me and I in him bears much fruit, for without Me you can do nothing.
(John 15:5 NKJV)

patrick jane
November 11th, 2015, 09:45 AM
Somebody asked me why God would allow man to fall into sin and thus billions upon billions suffer and grow old and die, (some don't). If God knew and allowed evil and sin and death to follow us all our lives, why does He do that ?

I think it certainly may seem that way at times but God has a much bigger picture in mind. For all to be saved and come to the knowledge of Him. It just seems like a long hard life for us, it only seems harsh, cruel, random and cold, but compared to eternal life with Christ this nothing.

1Mind1Spirit
November 11th, 2015, 12:29 PM
Hardhead? Really? All I did is quote Moses.

:peach: :)

iouae
November 11th, 2015, 12:37 PM
...the tree of life, which bore twelve fruits... (Rev 22:2 NKJV)

The twelve fruits are the twelve fruits of the Holy Spirit.


I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me and I in him bears much fruit, for without Me you can do nothing.
(John 15:5 NKJV)

Gal 5
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

I count 9

Why do you feel threatened by a tree that you have to spiritualise it away?
And do you spiritualise away the one in Eden?

jamie
November 11th, 2015, 12:47 PM
Gal 5
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

I count 9


Paul named nine but God's Spirit is the spirit of God, the Holy Spirit. In addition to the nine Paul listed, the Holy Spirit is a spirit of truth, power and life.

1Mind1Spirit
November 11th, 2015, 12:55 PM
Revelation 22:2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.

A description as detailed as this is literal.

If there is no sun and moon, how are months determined?

iouae
November 11th, 2015, 12:57 PM
Paul named nine but God's Spirit is the spirit of God, the Holy Spirit. In addition to the nine Paul listed, the Holy Spirit is a spirit of truth, power and life.

Doesn't that strike you as strange that you conveniently find 3 more?

In 1 min I found 2 more.

Ephesians 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise.


2 Timothy 1:7 For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind.

So what is your rule for making things disappear?

jamie
November 11th, 2015, 01:01 PM
Why do you feel threatened by a tree that you have to spiritualise it away?
And do you spiritualise away the one in Eden?


Your quote was from Revelation 22 which describes the spiritual dimension referred to in scripture as "heaven."

The vine in John 15:1 is symbolic just as the tree of life is in Genesis.


Then the LORD God said, "Behold, the man has become like one of Us to know good and evil. And now, lest he put out his hand and take also of the tree of life and eat and live forever..." (Genesis 3:22 NKJV)

Jesus Christ is the last Adam and it is he who imparts eternal life, not a literal tree.

The tree of life must be understood in scriptural context.

jamie
November 11th, 2015, 01:05 PM
Ephesians 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise.


The promise of the Holy Spirit is eternal life.

jamie
November 11th, 2015, 01:11 PM
2 Timothy 1:7 For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind.


Power and love describe the mind of Christ.


Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus... (Philippians 2:5 NKJV)

iouae
November 11th, 2015, 01:15 PM
Jesus Christ is the last Adam and it is he who imparts eternal life, not a literal tree.



You have no idea (nor do I) how Christ imparts eternal life?
Why not through this tree?

Angels eat manna. Isn't that how they get ongoing life?

jamie
November 11th, 2015, 01:39 PM
You have no idea (nor do I) how Christ imparts eternal life?
Why not through this tree?



...as You have given Him authority over all flesh, that He should give eternal life to as many as You have given Him. And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent. (John 17:2-3 NKJV)

For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. (1 Corinthians 15:21-22 NKJV)

jamie
November 11th, 2015, 01:40 PM
Angels eat manna.


Not scriptural.

iouae
November 11th, 2015, 01:45 PM
Jesus Christ is the last Adam and it is he who imparts eternal life, not a literal tree.

The tree of life must be understood in scriptural context.

I would like your rule for determining when something is literal or not.
Is the river not literal either?

Rev 22
22 And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.

2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.

SeraphimsCherub
November 11th, 2015, 02:00 PM
NO...It must be crucified.
- Rom 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

-Rom 7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.

-Gal 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

jamie
November 11th, 2015, 02:02 PM
I would like your rule for determining when something is literal or not.
Is the river not literal either?

Rev 22
22 And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.

2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.


My rule for determining when something is literal or not is scriptural context. Scripture is written here a little and there a little. We must connect the dots.

As for the river of the water of life, Jesus said, "On the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried out, saying, "If anyone thirsts, let him come to Me and drink" (John 7:37 NKJV)

If the river in Revelation 22 were literal where would the water go? There is no sea.

Also there was no more sea. (Revelation 21:1 NKJV)

See?

Ben Masada
November 11th, 2015, 05:22 PM
Yes, all we need is to want to. We have Freewill.

Robert Pate
November 11th, 2015, 05:36 PM
Yes, all we need is to want to. We have Freewill.


Your Jewish brother John didn't believe that man's sinful nature could be rehabilitated, 1 John 1:8.

chair
November 12th, 2015, 01:58 AM
Your Jewish brother John didn't believe that man's sinful nature could be rehabilitated, 1 John 1:8.

Therefore all Jews need to agree with him?

Wednesday Addams
November 12th, 2015, 03:12 AM
[INDENT]...as You have given Him authority over all flesh, that He should give eternal life to as many as You have given Him. And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent. (John 17:2-3 NKJV)


What is this unitarian verse you spew?

Wednesday Addams
November 12th, 2015, 03:15 AM
Your Jewish brother John didn't believe that man's sinful nature could be rehabilitated, 1 John 1:8.

The bible already mentioned four ways in which it can be rehabilitated. Sin-offerings, good deeds, repentance in prayer and something else.

Why are the disciples and newest believers continuing sin-offerings for after Jesus's sacrificial atonement?

iouae
November 12th, 2015, 04:13 AM
My rule for determining when something is literal or not is scriptural context. Scripture is written here a little and there a little. We must connect the dots.

As for the river of the water of life, Jesus said, "On the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried out, saying, "If anyone thirsts, let him come to Me and drink" (John 7:37 NKJV)

If the river in Revelation 22 were literal where would the water go? There is no sea.

Also there was no more sea. (Revelation 21:1 NKJV)

See?
Obviously anything I say is speculative...

There is a huge river in Botswana which does not run into the sea. Every year it rains in the highlands, and this river runs into the Okavango Delta. This is a huge land honeycombed with smaller rivers and which supports some of the best game viewing in Africa - which few tourists have ever heard of.

The river just runs into this inland delta where the water slowly seeps into the sandy soil. It never gets salty like the Dead Sea either.

The Rev 22 river runs down the middle of a huge street (of gold??). On either bank are the Trees of Life with their different fruits every month. The river flows from the throne of God, for thousands of miles, and eventually just disappears as trees absorb its water and as it soaks into the soil.

People stroll, cycle, rollerblade or whatever on the road on either side of the river. Occasionally they rest in the shade of the Tree of Life, or eat its varied fruits, which are not love, joy etc. but pomegranate, and fig, and mulberry etc. including fruits we have not yet seen.

jamie
November 12th, 2015, 08:52 AM
Obviously anything I say is speculative...


Why do people eat the figs and the other fruit? After all they are immortal.

chrysostom
November 12th, 2015, 09:00 AM
My rule for determining when something is literal or not is scriptural context. Scripture is written here a little and there a little. We must connect the dots.

As for the river of the water of life, Jesus said, "On the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried out, saying, "If anyone thirsts, let him come to Me and drink" (John 7:37 NKJV)

If the river in Revelation 22 were literal where would the water go? There is no sea.

Also there was no more sea. (Revelation 21:1 NKJV)

See?

the river is literal
if
there is no sea isn't

rome has a river runnning through it

jamie
November 12th, 2015, 09:02 AM
What is this unitarian verse you spew?


Jesus' prayer.

iouae
November 12th, 2015, 10:11 AM
Why do people eat the figs and the other fruit? After all they are immortal.

Because they taste good, and when you are immortal they do not put on weight.

Angel4Truth
November 12th, 2015, 03:25 PM
Why do people eat the figs and the other fruit? After all they are immortal.

Jesus ate fish after the Resurrection.

Robert Pate
November 12th, 2015, 04:22 PM
Jesus ate fish after the Resurrection.

Will we eat fish in heaven?

jamie
November 12th, 2015, 04:49 PM
Because they taste good, and when you are immortal they do not put on weight.


Ok, so the people don't have to eat the fruit, it's just something to do, right? If they eat it's okay, if they don't eat it's okay.

iouae
November 12th, 2015, 10:23 PM
Ok, so the people don't have to eat the fruit, it's just something to do, right? If they eat it's okay, if they don't eat it's okay.

This is my position.

Only the YHWH Gods have immortality. That is Christ and the Father.

All other spirit beings, meaning all angels in heaven, demons, and us in the future have conditional eternal life. We will have to eat continually forever to maintain our immortality. This was no different to what Adam was offered. I believe they did eat of the Tree of Life. Nothing was stopping them. But, being cut off, they died.

This is being hinted at in the following verse...

Revelation 22:2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.

Why would immortals need healing? Because even immortals need maintenance. They run down.

jamie
November 12th, 2015, 10:46 PM
This is my position.

Only the YHWH Gods have immortality. That is Christ and the Father.


And this is my position.


For this corruptible must put on incorruption and this mortal must put on immortality. (1 Corinthians 15:53 NKJV)

jamie
November 12th, 2015, 10:48 PM
Only the YHWH Gods...


Gods?

God is one and we are one with him.

iouae
November 12th, 2015, 10:50 PM
And this is my position.


For this corruptible must put on incorruption and this mortal must put on immortality. (1 Corinthians 15:53 NKJV)

Immortality means living forever. I believe in that.

Most ASSUME this means without sustenance.

jamie
November 12th, 2015, 10:51 PM
...and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.


Yes, the fruits of the Spirit will heal the nations. One of those fruits is peace.

iouae
November 12th, 2015, 10:52 PM
Gods?

God is one and we are one with him.

The Bible uses the word "elohim" both of Christ and the Father, as well as the angels and demons. All spirit beings are spoken of in the Bible as "elohim" but only the elohim who created the other elohim are referred to as the Jehova (YHWH) Elohim.

iouae
November 12th, 2015, 10:55 PM
Yes, the fruits of the Spirit will heal the nations. One of those fruits is peace.

Yes, I read your rule of context - which I consider no rule at all. :)

My rule, which actually is a rule which can be applied by others as well as me is this "If it can be taken literally, then take it literally". And there is no problem with me taking trees and rivers literally.

jamie
November 12th, 2015, 10:56 PM
Immortality means living forever. I believe in that.

Most ASSUME this means without sustenance.


Satan told Eve that if she ate the fruit she would not die.


Then the serpent said to the woman, "You will not surely die." (Genesis 3:4 NKJV)

Immortality means life inherent.

iouae
November 12th, 2015, 11:02 PM
Satan told Eve that if she ate the fruit she would not die.


Then the serpent said to the woman, "You will not surely die." (Genesis 3:4 NKJV)

Immortality means life inherent.

First, the snake was lying.

Second, prove that immortality given to others is life inherent.

iouae
November 13th, 2015, 12:22 AM
John 7:38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.

Does the "his" refer to the drinker, or Christ?

Grosnick Marowbe
November 13th, 2015, 12:29 AM
Many believe that it can be. Some Catholics believe that by the grace of God working in a persons life and through the indwelling Holy Spirit, they can live a life of perfect obedience to God's Holy Law and be justified. This is why they are continually going to mass to be like Jesus.

If that were true, that we could become righteous by what we do, then Jesus lived and died in vain.

This is one reason why some people believe that Catholicism is anti-Christ. It does away with the substituionary and representative work that Jesus did in our name and on our behalf, that justifies us and reconciles us to God, 2 Corinthians 5:18, 19.

Christians are called to live their lives before God as sinners. Saved sinners. This is why Paul refered to himself as "The Chief of Sinners" 1 Timothy 1:15. Paul struggled with sin just like we do, "For the good that I would do, I don't do it, but the evil which I would not do, that I do" Romans 7:19. It is the Holy Spirit working in the Christians life that convicts him of sin. If you don't see yourself as a needy sinner, you may not have the Holy Spirit.

We are always pressing towards the "high calling" that is in Jesus Christ, but we never arrive, we always fall short of the righteousness of Christ. This is why Paul said, "As it is written, there is none righteous, no, not one" Romans 3:10.

The Gospel is the good news that Jesus came into the world to do for us that which we cannot do for ourselves. By his sinless life, he offers to God the Father a life of perfect obedience to his Holy Law. It is this life that was lived for our justification, Romans 3:26. That was not enough, something had to be done about our sins, "For he has made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him" 2 Corinthians 5:21.

When God accepted Jesus into heaven we were accepted in him. God now sees us as perfect and complete "In Christ" Colossians 2:10.

Excellent post Pate

jamie
November 13th, 2015, 07:56 AM
John 7:38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.

Does the "his" refer to the drinker, or Christ?



"He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water."

But this He spoke concerning the Spirit, whom those believing in Him would receive... (John 7:38-39 NKJV)

jamie
November 13th, 2015, 07:58 AM
First, the snake was lying.


That's my point.

jamie
November 13th, 2015, 08:01 AM
Second, prove that immortality given to others is life inherent.


What does YHVH mean?

iouae
November 13th, 2015, 08:41 AM
"He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water."

But this He spoke concerning the Spirit, whom those believing in Him would receive... (John 7:38-39 NKJV)

So join those dots you spoke about - is the living water flowing out of the drinker, or out of God/Christ?

iouae
November 13th, 2015, 08:47 AM
What does YHVH mean?

YHWH is the Hebrew for "Jehovah". The Jehovah God is translated in the KJV the "LORD God" to distinguish Him from the many thousands of other created gods or spirit beings.

Only Jehovah God(s) or the Godhead have inherent immortality since they eternally existed. The spirit gods were created and have immortality derived from the Jehovah God(s).

We have to stay attached to the Vine or Jehovah Gods forever to have immortality, just as the whole spirit population in heaven also have to.

jamie
November 13th, 2015, 08:52 AM
So join those dots you spoke about - is the living water flowing out of the drinker, or out of God/Christ?


Jesus answered and said to her, "Whoever drinks of this water will thirst again, but whoever drinks of the water that I shall give him will never thirst. But the water that I shall give him will become in him a fountain of water springing up into everlasting life." (John 4:13-14 NKJV)

The living water is the Holy Spirit and the gift of the Spirit is eternal life. (Romans 6:23 NKJV)

iouae
November 13th, 2015, 08:59 AM
Jesus answered and said to her, "Whoever drinks of this water will thirst again, but whoever drinks of the water that I shall give him will never thirst. But the water that I shall give him will become in him a fountain of water springing up into everlasting life." (John 4:13-14 NKJV)

The living water is the Holy Spirit and the gift of the Spirit is eternal life. (Romans 6:23 NKJV)

So the living water flows from the throne of God, right. Interpret that literally or symbolically.

There is no living water flowing out of us - ever. We do not have inherent immortality. We have to drink of that living water, eat of the Tree of Life, eat of the Bread of Life, stay connected to the Vine of life.

And its not that we just do it now for a few years of our mortal lives, its forever.

jamie
November 13th, 2015, 09:01 AM
YHWH is the Hebrew for "Jehovah".


No, YHVH means "I exist."

"I am that I am," meaning self existence.

iouae
November 13th, 2015, 09:06 AM
No, YHVH means "I exist."

"I am that I am," meaning self existence.

Correct. And only they have inherent immortality. I don't even know if its possible for them to transfer inherent immortality.

But I sure know they can make spirit beings who last forever (but they can destroy these too).

iouae
November 13th, 2015, 09:07 AM
Let's suppose God gave you inherent immortality? Would you need Him any more?

jamie
November 13th, 2015, 09:09 AM
So the living water flows from the throne of God, right. Interpret that literally or symbolically.


Peter explained, "But this is what was spoken by the prophet Joel: 'And it shall come to pass in the last days,' says God, 'that I will pour out My Spirit on all flesh...' " (Acts 2:16-17 NKJV)


And it shall come to pass afterward that I will pour out My Spirit on all flesh... (Joel 2:28 NKJV)

iouae
November 13th, 2015, 09:13 AM
Peter explained, "But this is what was spoken by the prophet Joel: 'And it shall come to pass in the last days,' says God, 'that I will pour out My Spirit on all flesh...' " (Acts 2:16-17 NKJV)


And it shall come to pass afterward that I will pour out My Spirit on all flesh... (Joel 2:28 NKJV)

... and keep pouring forever as shown by the river from God's throne.

Spirit beings can die. Christ did.
Satan will be thrown into the lake of fire and destroyed.
Spirit is not indestructible.

jamie
November 13th, 2015, 09:19 AM
Let's suppose God gave you inherent immortality? Would you need Him any more?


We are married to Jesus Christ from a scriptural standpoint. But marriage is only until death. He gives us eternal life so we won't ever die.

iouae
November 13th, 2015, 09:26 AM
We are married to Jesus Christ from a scriptural standpoint. But marriage is only until death. He gives us eternal life so we won't ever die.

How many people today would accept Jesus if they already had immortality and life was perfect? I may not. There would be nothing He could offer me which I did not already have.

Likewise in the kingdom.

God does not want another Lucifer turn to Satan in the future. That might happen if we had inherent immortality.

Its the second law of creating something = "Never make something you cannot destroy".

jamie
November 13th, 2015, 09:29 AM
Spirit beings can die. Christ did.


Christ surrendered his immortality so he could become mortal and suffer death as a propitiation (atonement) for sin.

Christ's immortality was restored at his resurrection.


...the King of kings and Lord of lords, who alone has immortality dwelling in unapproachable light whom no man has seen or can see, to whom be honor and everlasting power. (1 Timothy 6:15-16 NKJV)

iouae
November 13th, 2015, 09:32 AM
Christ surrendered his immortality so he could become mortal and suffer death as a propitiation (atonement) for sin.

Christ's immortality was restored at his resurrection.


...the King of kings and Lord of lords, who alone has immortality dwelling in unapproachable light whom no man has seen or can see, to whom be honor and everlasting power. (1 Timothy 6:15-16 NKJV)

For 3 days He was stone dead. It took the Father to restore immortality to Him. A dead person cannot do anything.

Ben Masada
November 13th, 2015, 04:07 PM
Let's suppose God gave you inherent immortality? Would you need Him any more?

See what I mean? That's why Adam & Eve were banned from the Garden of Eden; to prevent them from eating of the tree of life and live forever. (Gen. 3:22,23) So, the answer is "no." Life eternal for man would be hell on earth.

iouae
November 13th, 2015, 06:25 PM
See what I mean? That's why Adam & Eve were banned from the Garden of Eden; to prevent them from eating of the tree of life and live forever. (Gen. 3:22,23) So, the answer is "no." Life eternal for man would be hell on earth.

I think the story of Satan and his demons shows what life would be like without God. Cut off from God the good angels progressively became evil, till they became the demons of today. But all demons were good originally.

That is why every spirit being has to stay connected and dependant on God, forever.

chair
November 14th, 2015, 05:14 AM
YHWH is the Hebrew for "Jehovah"...

This has to be one of the funniest statements I have seen on the site.

bybee
November 14th, 2015, 08:56 AM
This has to be one of the funniest statements I have seen on the site.

Is it not a "code" to be used rather than the unnameable/unknowable name of the Almighty?

chair
November 14th, 2015, 09:57 AM
Is it not a "code" to be used rather than the unnameable/unknowable name of the Almighty?

No. And it is certainly not "Hebrew for Jehovah"

musterion
November 14th, 2015, 10:09 AM
The sinful nature cannot be rehabilitated, only crucified. Any attempt to tame, control or reform it via religion spits on the Cross.

iouae
November 14th, 2015, 12:16 PM
No. And it is certainly not "Hebrew for Jehovah"

OK I will bite.

Tet·ra·gram·ma·ton
ˌtetrəˈɡraməˌtän/
noun
the Hebrew name of God transliterated in four letters as YHWH or JHVH and articulated as Yahweh or Jehovah.

How is this not "Hebrew for Jehovah"?

jamie
November 14th, 2015, 03:05 PM
OK I will bite.
the Hebrew name of God transliterated in four letters as YHWH or JHVH and articulated as Yahweh or Jehovah.


YHVH is Yod Hey Vav Hey, which are consonants not vowels.

The KJV uses LORD for YHVH.

The term "Jehovah" is man made

SonOfCaleb
December 23rd, 2015, 08:49 AM
Jehovah is just the anglicized or latinised version of the tetragrammaton (which means 4 letters in Greek) YHWH. Whether the Y or the J is used depends on the language. English pronounces the Y as a J. The Greeks pronounce it as an I.

The vowels are inserted into the name Jehovah as Hebrew originally didn't contain a vowel pointing system in the language. Therefore the actual pronunciation of the name Jehovah is not known as ancient Hebrew differs considerably to modern day Hebrew linguistically.
The name Yahweh and Jehovah are the same. The natural morphology that occurs in language means the name will be spelt differently and pronounced differently depending on the language/speaker.
Either way the name Jehovah was in popular use in Medieval Europe. Hence why most english translators when translating Gods name have continued to use the name Jehovah in English translations as its been well known and used name in English for over a millennia.

Even pagan rulers in antiquity knew of the name Jehovah as the Moabite Stone or Mesha Stele that sits in the British Museum dated to the 9th Century BC, contains the gloating inscriptions of the King of Moab (Mesha) who after battling Israel boasted "I took from there the vessels of Jehovah and dragged them before Chemosh". Chemosh being the Moabite pagan deity.

http://truenation.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/Name-mesha.jpg

SonOfCaleb
December 23rd, 2015, 09:09 AM
Correct. And only they have inherent immortality. I don't even know if its possible for them to transfer inherent immortality.

But I sure know they can make spirit beings who last forever (but they can destroy these too).

YHWH/Jehovah actually means "He causes to become", which is an apt name for the creator of all things.

All angels are not immortal. Neither is there any such thing as inherent immortality. As Jehovah is immortal and only he can bestow the gift of immortality.
His son Jesus was given immortality as shown by the Apostle Paul in Romans 6:9: “Christ, now that he has been raised up from the dead, dies no more; death is master over him no more.”

The demons who were/are fallen angels are very much fearful of their impending death as the Demon(s) who called himself "Legion" to Jesus plead with Jesus not to send them into the Abyss in Luke 8:31:-

31 And they kept pleading with him not to order them to go away into the abyss.

If the angels were 'inherently immortal' it would mean Satan and his organization were indestructible, which is clearly not the case as divine judgment by Jehovah was conferred on them in the opening chapters of Genesis, which is also evidenced in Matthew 25:41 "you who have been cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the Devil and his angels".

Robert Pate
December 23rd, 2015, 04:56 PM
The sinful nature cannot be rehabilitated, only crucified. Any attempt to tame, control or reform it via religion spits on the Cross.

And is anti-Christ.

Jesus crucified the old Adam and put him to death, Romans 6:6.

beloved57
December 23rd, 2015, 05:04 PM
And is anti-Christ.

Jesus crucified the old Adam and put him to death, Romans 6:6.

You teach that the old man can wind up in hell !

Robert Pate
December 23rd, 2015, 05:13 PM
You teach that the old man can wind up in hell !

Only if like you he rejects God's great free gift of salvation that has been provided by Jesus Christ.

beloved57
December 23rd, 2015, 05:15 PM
Only if like you he rejects God's great free gift of salvation that has been provided by Jesus Christ.

If God has had mercy on you He has saved you Titus 3:5 !

beloved57
December 23rd, 2015, 05:17 PM
Only if like you he rejects God's great free gift of salvation that has been provided by Jesus Christ.

Those Christ died for are reconciled saved while they are enemies rejecting God and Christ Rom 5:10, that is the Gift of Gods Grace ! :-)

Robert Pate
December 23rd, 2015, 05:21 PM
Those Christ died for are reconciled saved while they are enemies rejecting God and Christ Rom 5:10, that is the Gift of Gods Grace ! :-)

HOGWASH!

If you don't call on Christ to save you, you will perish, John 3:18.

beloved57
December 23rd, 2015, 05:24 PM
HOGWASH!

If you don't call on Christ to save you, you will perish, John 3:18.

Those Christ died for are reconciled/saved while they are enemies Rom 5:10 !

Robert Pate
December 23rd, 2015, 05:25 PM
Those Christ died for are reconciled/saved while they are enemies Rom 5:10 !

Only if they receive what Christ has done for them, John 1:12.

beloved57
December 23rd, 2015, 05:27 PM
Only if they receive what Christ has done for them, John 1:12.

No sir, they are saved while they are enemies Rom 5:10 !

Robert Pate
December 24th, 2015, 09:30 AM
No sir, they are saved while they are enemies Rom 5:10 !



God is not taking Christ rejectors to heaven.

Unless you repent and trust in Christ you will perish, John 3:18.

beloved57
December 24th, 2015, 11:15 AM
God is not taking Christ rejectors to heaven.

Unless you repent and trust in Christ you will perish, John 3:18.

Those Christ died for were saved while enemies and Christ rejectors Rom 5:10 !

Robert Pate
December 24th, 2015, 01:12 PM
Those Christ died for were saved while enemies and Christ rejectors Rom 5:10 !

Unless you receive Christ as your savior you will perish, John 1:12.

beloved57
December 24th, 2015, 02:32 PM
Unless you receive Christ as your savior you will perish, John 1:12.

Those Christ died for are reconciled to God, saved from perishing/death while they are enemies hating God Rom 5:10!

ttruscott
December 25th, 2015, 02:47 PM
There is no Sinful Adamic Nature which implies that GOD created us sinners by putting us in him instead of creating us as independents as HE did with Adam and Eve. Since HE proved HE could create true innocents, why beleive that HE created billions as sinners without a chance at innocence and a free will choice? GOD is perfectly loving and holy, HE cannot create evil.

What we got from Adam was his death, passed onto us all because we all sinned...it does not say that his sin was passed but his judgement. Nor are we supposed to create a whole theology based on only one or two verses, eh?

Robert Pate
December 26th, 2015, 09:35 AM
There is no Sinful Adamic Nature which implies that GOD created us sinners by putting us in him instead of creating us as independents as HE did with Adam and Eve. Since HE proved HE could create true innocents, why beleive that HE created billions as sinners without a chance at innocence and a free will choice? GOD is perfectly loving and holy, HE cannot create evil.

What we got from Adam was his death, passed onto us all because we all sinned...it does not say that his sin was passed but his judgement. Nor are we supposed to create a whole theology based on only one or two verses, eh?


The scripture says that we inherited Adam's sinful nature, Romans 5:12 also Romans 5:19.

God does not create sinners. We become sinners because of Adam who is our first Father and the federal head of the human race.

There are many, many scriptures that tell us we are sinners without works.

beloved57
December 26th, 2015, 11:14 AM
The scripture says that we inherited Adam's sinful nature, Romans 5:12 also Romans 5:19.

God does not create sinners. We become sinners because of Adam who is our first Father and the federal head of the human race.

There are many, many scriptures that tell us we are sinners without works.

God created Adam a sinner, that is why he sinned ! He created him weak in the flesh !

Robert Pate
December 26th, 2015, 12:24 PM
God created Adam a sinner, that is why he sinned ! He created him weak in the flesh !

No he didn't.

Adam was created innocent. You have this perverted, twisted, idea of the nature and character of God.

That is why you are lost. You are void of faith in God and his Son Jesus Christ.

beloved57
December 26th, 2015, 12:38 PM
No he didn't.

Adam was created innocent. You have this perverted, twisted, idea of the nature and character of God.

That is why you are lost. You are void of faith in God and his Son Jesus Christ.

He may have been innocent until he sinned, but he sinned because he was a depraved sinner with lust in his heart ! He didn't love God with all your his heart,mind and strength !

Robert Pate
December 26th, 2015, 12:41 PM
He may have been innocent until he sinned, but he sinned because he was a depraved sinner with lust in his heart ! He didn't love God with all your his heart,mind and strength !

He sinned because Satan convinced him that he would be like God, not because he was a depraved sinner.

Your doctrine concerning God is flawed. You think that he is a sinner like you.

beloved57
December 26th, 2015, 12:45 PM
He sinned because Satan convinced him that he would be like God, not because he was a depraved sinner.

Your doctrine concerning God is flawed. You think that he is a sinner like you.

He sinned because he was a sinner ! Satan can convince a sinner to sin with ease . What happened when he tried to convince the Man Christ to sin ?

Robert Pate
December 26th, 2015, 12:53 PM
He sinned because he was a sinner ! Satan can convince a sinner to sin with ease . What happened when he tried to convince the Man Christ to sin ?

You want to believe that God creates sinners because God is a sinner.

Adam was created in the image of God, Genesis 1:26.

beloved57
December 26th, 2015, 02:54 PM
You want to believe that God creates sinners because God is a sinner.

Adam was created in the image of God, Genesis 1:26.

God created Adam and Adam was a sinner, that is why he sinned. Yeah he was made in the image and likeness of God but he was a sinner. Christ is the image of God,but not a sinner! do you compare the Man Christ Jesus with adam ? How did Christ respond to the temptation of satan compared to adam ?

serpentdove
December 26th, 2015, 03:49 PM
There is no "sinful Adamic nature".

Then why have you sinned? Josh. 7:20

serpentdove
December 26th, 2015, 03:56 PM
[Adam] ...[H]is nature was the same before and after he sinned.

Then why did they attempt to cover themselves? Ge 3:7

serpentdove
December 26th, 2015, 03:59 PM
I would have never thought that the following verses would need clarification to any Christian!

And they were both naked, the man and his wife, and were not ashamed.

And he said, I heard thy voice in the garden, and I was afraid, because I was naked; and I hid myself.

Why would two http://vananne.com/serpentdove/emoticones_gestos_cruzando-los-dedos2_en.PlanetaEmoticon.com.gif innocent people have to attempt to hide themselves? :smokie: