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northwye
November 2nd, 2015, 06:58 AM
It Has Been A Long Time Since Old Covenant Israel Was the Chosen People

Exodus 19: 5-6 says "Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine: And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.”

“For thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God: the LORD thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth.” Deuteronomy 7: 6

“Blessed be Egypt my people, and Assyria the work of my hands, and Israel mine inheritance.” Isaiah 19: 25

But look at Exodus 19: 5-6. It says “If” Old Covenant Israel obeys God, then it will be a peculiar treasure above all people. The chosen people status was conditional, not unconditional, based upon the physical DNA from Abraham.

God did promise Abraham in Genesis 17: 4, 7-8 that Abraham would be the father of many nations. Genesis 17: 10-14 might seem to say that the covenant of circumcision means that so long as the males of Old Covenant Israel are circumcised, then Old Covenant Israel will be the chosen people, and Genesis 17: 4, 7-8 might be seen to be an unconditional promise that Old Covenant Israel will always be the chosen people of God because of their bloodline. But scripture has to be interpreted by scripture, not by man-made theologies. “For precept must be upon precept...line upon line...here a little, and there a little.” Isaiah 28: 10

That there is no longer a chosen people based only on their flesh, on their physical DNA. is found in the teachings of Paul in Romans 2: 23-24, 28-29, Romans 9: 6-8, Galatians 3: 3, 16, 26-29, if you have ears to hear and eyes to see it. The implications of these texts are not spelled out in detail, leaving room for the literalists and those who deal in the letter to convince many that the chosen people by the physical blood line is still in effect.

Statements of Jesus Christ himself also imply that the people of the Old Covenant are no longer the chosen people (Exodus 19: 5-6). such as John 3: 3, and John 3: 5, that everyone must be born again of the Spirit to be in the kingdom of God, and Matthew 23:38, that the Old Covenant house is desolate, meaning it is spiritually desolate and that the Spirit and Christ are not in it.

Hebrews 10: 9 says "He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second."

“For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: 7. Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. 8. That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.” Romans 9: 6-8

Exodus 19: 5-6 says “Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine:
6. And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.”

Then, under the New Covenant, Peter tells us in I Peter 2: 5, 9 “Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ........But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:”

In I Peter 2: 9 Peter is quoting Exodus 19: 5-6 and applying it to Christians. Who are “ye” in I Peter 2: 5 and in I Peter 2: 9? “Ye” cannot be Old Covenant Israel. Those of Old Covenant Israel in Romans 11: 17-20 who did not accept Jesus Christ and were not born again were cut off. A remnant of Old Covenant Israel in Romans 11: 1-5 did accept Christ and became the beginning of the New Covenant.

That multitude of Old Covenant Israel, who rejected Christ, continued on claiming still to be the chosen people, in Talmudic Judaism. Since those in Talmudic Judaism reject Christ in an explicit way, they are of the spirit of anti-Christ (I John 4: 3).

What do we call those of Old Covenant Israel who remain in unbelief? Their spiritual condition is not different from others who reject Jesus Christ. Their spiritual state is that of the natural man of I Corinthians 2: 14, who does not receive the things of the Spirit of God. They are the unbelievers, the unsaved, and the earth dwellers (Luke 21: 35, Revelation 6:10, Revelation 11:10, Revelation 12: 12, Revelation 13: 8, Revelation 13: 12, Revelation 13: 14, Revelation 14: 6) in the sense that they do not sit with Jesus Christ in heavely places as do the elect that are physiclly still on earth. Revelation 13: 6 is relevant since it mentions those that dwell in heaven, which is those physically on earth who spiritually sit with Christ in heavenly places (Ephesians 2: 6). And so Revelation 14: 3, on the 144,000,is also relevant, as a remnant, being redeemed from the earth, that is, they are raised up above the earth dwellers to sit with Christ metaphorically on Mount Zion.

"Whereas Edom saith, We are impoverished, but we will return and build the desolate places; thus saith the LORD of hosts, They shall build, but I will throw down; and they shall call them, The border of wickedness, and, The people against whom the LORD hath indignation for ever." Malachi 1: 4.

Edom is trying to rebuild its chosen status, "they shall build, but I will throw down."

."For from the rising of the sun even unto the going down of the same my name shall be great among the Gentiles; and in every place incense shall be offered unto my name, and a pure offering: for my name shall be great among the heathen, saith the LORD of hosts.
12. But ye have profaned it, in that ye say, The table of the LORD is polluted; and the fruit thereof, even his meat, is contemptible." Malachi 1: 11-12.

"Behold, I will corrupt your seed, and spread dung upon your faces, even the dung of your solemn feasts; and one shall take you away with it. 4. And ye shall know that I have sent this commandment unto you, that my covenant might be with Levi, saith the LORD of hosts.
5. My covenant was with him of life and peace; and I gave them to him for the fear wherewith he feared me, and was afraid before my name.
6. The law of truth was in his mouth, and iniquity was not found in his lips: he walked with me in peace and equity, and did turn many away from iniquity.
7. For the priest's lips should keep knowledge, and they should seek the law at his mouth: for he is the messenger of the LORD of hosts.
8. But ye are departed out of the way; ye have caused many to stumble at the law; ye have corrupted the covenant of Levi, saith the LORD of hosts.
9. Therefore have I also made you contemptible and base before all the people, according as ye have not kept my ways, but have been partial in the law." Malachi 2: 3-9.

Malachi starts by talking about Edom. Then Malachi talks about Old Covenant Israel.

In Genesis 25: 25-34 Edom-Esau gave up his birthright to Jacob, but in Malachi 1: 4 Edom-Esau is trying to regain that lost birthright, which God opposes. Then in Malachi 2, the apostasy of Old Covenant Israel is described.

In Isaiah 50: 1 God put away Old Covenant Israel, and in Jeremiah 3:8 God put away Israel, and the implication is that Judah is also put away. for the same apostasy. Then, in Jeremiah 18: 1-6 God remade Old Covenant Israel. Old Covenant Israel follows Edom-Esau in trying to get back its status as the chosen people.

Those claiming still to be the chosen people of God of the Old Covenant, can enter into New Covenant Israel. Remember that Jeremiah 18: 1-6 teaches that God remade Old Covenant Israel, and I Peter 2: 5 says “ye,” meaning born again Christians, are now built up a spiritual house, a holy priesthood.

Those claiming to still be the chosen people under the Old Covenant can join that spiritual house. “And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.” Romns 11: 23

Were they, as those claiming still to be the multitude of Old Covenant Israel, to come to believe and be born again in Christ, they would not have that more exclusive status as the chosen people based upon their physical bloodline.

But - John Darby, C.I. Scofield and Lewis S. Chafer teach something different about Old Covenant Israel, something which becomes another Gospel (II Corinthians 11: 4, Galatians 1: 6-9) and teaching another Gospel, they teach another Jesus.

John Darby said that the "Church has sought to settle itself here, but it has no place on the
earth... [Though] making a most constructive parenthesis, it forms no part of the regular order of God's earthly plans, but is merely an interruption of them to give a fuller character and meaning to them..."

John. N. Darby, 'The Character of Office in The Present Dispensation'
Collected Writings., Eccl. I, Vol. I, p. 94.

"Them" are all physical Israel, or Old Covenant Israel. The church, for Darby exists to "give fuller character and meaning to all physical Israel." Darby thought that the purpose of the Christian church, the ekklesia as a meeting, assembly or congregation of Israel reborn in Christ, made into The Body of Christ like the Catholic capital C Church, was to honor all physical Israel.

http://anothervoicerev184.blogspot.c...-of-jesus.html

"Return of Jesus Christ, The Rapture of the Church and the Second Coming of the Lord Jesus Christ, By Lewis Sperry Chafer 1871-1952."

Chafer says "The nation Israel, God's chosen earthly people, to whom at least five-sixths of the Bible is addressed and with whom the great covenants are made (Rom 9:4-5) -- which covenants secure to that nation a land, a nation, a throne, a King, and a kingdom -- are now scattered throughout all the nations of the earth (Deut 4:26-28; Deut 28:63-68; Jer 16:13), and are to remain scattered until they (a remnant; ed.) are gathered into their own land (Deut 30:3-6; Isa 11:11-12; Isa 14:1-3; Isa 60:1-22; Jer 23:6-8; Jer 32:37-44; Jer 33:7-9; Eze 37:21-25; Mic 4:6-8) under the reign of Christ Jesus at His return."

Lewis S. Chafer refers to physical Israel as God's earthy chosen people. And early dispensationalists talk about the church as being only a "parenthesis" within dispensations.

"Israel is an eternal nation, heir to an eternal land, with an eternal kingdom, on which David rules from an eternal throne so that in eternity, '...never the twain, Israel and church, shall meet." Lewis S. Chafer, Systematic Theology (Dallas, Dallas Seminary Press, 1975), Vol. 4. pp. 315-323..

The teaching of Christian Zionism that God now has two peoples, Old Covenant Israel, or physical Israel, and the Church, does not stand.

"And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd." John 10: 16

"For as we have many members in one body, and all members have not the same office: So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another." Romans 12: 4-5

"There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;" Ephesians 4: 4

chair
November 2nd, 2015, 07:22 AM
Why do you care?
We (Jews) aren't going to pay attention to this kind of thing.

As far as you are concerned, it is all over with, and has been for a long time.

beloved57
November 2nd, 2015, 07:34 AM
It Has Been A Long Time Since Old Covenant Israel Was the Chosen People

Only a small remnant few was Chosen, the rest were blinded !

Lazy afternoon
November 2nd, 2015, 07:52 PM
It Has Been A Long Time Since Old Covenant Israel Was the Chosen People

Exodus 19: 5-6 says "Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine: And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.”

“For thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God: the LORD thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth.” Deuteronomy 7: 6

“Blessed be Egypt my people, and Assyria the work of my hands, and Israel mine inheritance.” Isaiah 19: 25

But look at Exodus 19: 5-6. It says “If” Old Covenant Israel obeys God, then it will be a peculiar treasure above all people. The chosen people status was conditional, not unconditional, based upon the physical DNA from Abraham.

God did promise Abraham in Genesis 17: 4, 7-8 that Abraham would be the father of many nations. Genesis 17: 10-14 might seem to say that the covenant of circumcision means that so long as the males of Old Covenant Israel are circumcised, then Old Covenant Israel will be the chosen people, and Genesis 17: 4, 7-8 might be seen to be an unconditional promise that Old Covenant Israel will always be the chosen people of God because of their bloodline. But scripture has to be interpreted by scripture, not by man-made theologies. “For precept must be upon precept...line upon line...here a little, and there a little.” Isaiah 28: 10

That there is no longer a chosen people based only on their flesh, on their physical DNA. is found in the teachings of Paul in Romans 2: 23-24, 28-29, Romans 9: 6-8, Galatians 3: 3, 16, 26-29, if you have ears to hear and eyes to see it. The implications of these texts are not spelled out in detail, leaving room for the literalists and those who deal in the letter to convince many that the chosen people by the physical blood line is still in effect.

Statements of Jesus Christ himself also imply that the people of the Old Covenant are no longer the chosen people (Exodus 19: 5-6). such as John 3: 3, and John 3: 5, that everyone must be born again of the Spirit to be in the kingdom of God, and Matthew 23:38, that the Old Covenant house is desolate, meaning it is spiritually desolate and that the Spirit and Christ are not in it.

Hebrews 10: 9 says "He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second."

“For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: 7. Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. 8. That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.” Romans 9: 6-8

Exodus 19: 5-6 says “Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine:
6. And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.”

Then, under the New Covenant, Peter tells us in I Peter 2: 5, 9 “Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ........But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:”

In I Peter 2: 9 Peter is quoting Exodus 19: 5-6 and applying it to Christians. Who are “ye” in I Peter 2: 5 and in I Peter 2: 9? “Ye” cannot be Old Covenant Israel. Those of Old Covenant Israel in Romans 11: 17-20 who did not accept Jesus Christ and were not born again were cut off. A remnant of Old Covenant Israel in Romans 11: 1-5 did accept Christ and became the beginning of the New Covenant.

That multitude of Old Covenant Israel, who rejected Christ, continued on claiming still to be the chosen people, in Talmudic Judaism. Since those in Talmudic Judaism reject Christ in an explicit way, they are of the spirit of anti-Christ (I John 4: 3).

What do we call those of Old Covenant Israel who remain in unbelief? Their spiritual condition is not different from others who reject Jesus Christ. Their spiritual state is that of the natural man of I Corinthians 2: 14, who does not receive the things of the Spirit of God. They are the unbelievers, the unsaved, and the earth dwellers (Luke 21: 35, Revelation 6:10, Revelation 11:10, Revelation 12: 12, Revelation 13: 8, Revelation 13: 12, Revelation 13: 14, Revelation 14: 6) in the sense that they do not sit with Jesus Christ in heavely places as do the elect that are physiclly still on earth. Revelation 13: 6 is relevant since it mentions those that dwell in heaven, which is those physically on earth who spiritually sit with Christ in heavenly places (Ephesians 2: 6). And so Revelation 14: 3, on the 144,000,is also relevant, as a remnant, being redeemed from the earth, that is, they are raised up above the earth dwellers to sit with Christ metaphorically on Mount Zion.

"Whereas Edom saith, We are impoverished, but we will return and build the desolate places; thus saith the LORD of hosts, They shall build, but I will throw down; and they shall call them, The border of wickedness, and, The people against whom the LORD hath indignation for ever." Malachi 1: 4.

Edom is trying to rebuild its chosen status, "they shall build, but I will throw down."

."For from the rising of the sun even unto the going down of the same my name shall be great among the Gentiles; and in every place incense shall be offered unto my name, and a pure offering: for my name shall be great among the heathen, saith the LORD of hosts.
12. But ye have profaned it, in that ye say, The table of the LORD is polluted; and the fruit thereof, even his meat, is contemptible." Malachi 1: 11-12.

"Behold, I will corrupt your seed, and spread dung upon your faces, even the dung of your solemn feasts; and one shall take you away with it. 4. And ye shall know that I have sent this commandment unto you, that my covenant might be with Levi, saith the LORD of hosts.
5. My covenant was with him of life and peace; and I gave them to him for the fear wherewith he feared me, and was afraid before my name.
6. The law of truth was in his mouth, and iniquity was not found in his lips: he walked with me in peace and equity, and did turn many away from iniquity.
7. For the priest's lips should keep knowledge, and they should seek the law at his mouth: for he is the messenger of the LORD of hosts.
8. But ye are departed out of the way; ye have caused many to stumble at the law; ye have corrupted the covenant of Levi, saith the LORD of hosts.
9. Therefore have I also made you contemptible and base before all the people, according as ye have not kept my ways, but have been partial in the law." Malachi 2: 3-9.

Malachi starts by talking about Edom. Then Malachi talks about Old Covenant Israel.

In Genesis 25: 25-34 Edom-Esau gave up his birthright to Jacob, but in Malachi 1: 4 Edom-Esau is trying to regain that lost birthright, which God opposes. Then in Malachi 2, the apostasy of Old Covenant Israel is described.

In Isaiah 50: 1 God put away Old Covenant Israel, and in Jeremiah 3:8 God put away Israel, and the implication is that Judah is also put away. for the same apostasy. Then, in Jeremiah 18: 1-6 God remade Old Covenant Israel. Old Covenant Israel follows Edom-Esau in trying to get back its status as the chosen people.

Those claiming still to be the chosen people of God of the Old Covenant, can enter into New Covenant Israel. Remember that Jeremiah 18: 1-6 teaches that God remade Old Covenant Israel, and I Peter 2: 5 says “ye,” meaning born again Christians, are now built up a spiritual house, a holy priesthood.

Those claiming to still be the chosen people under the Old Covenant can join that spiritual house. “And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.” Romns 11: 23

Were they, as those claiming still to be the multitude of Old Covenant Israel, to come to believe and be born again in Christ, they would not have that more exclusive status as the chosen people based upon their physical bloodline.

But - John Darby, C.I. Scofield and Lewis S. Chafer teach something different about Old Covenant Israel, something which becomes another Gospel (II Corinthians 11: 4, Galatians 1: 6-9) and teaching another Gospel, they teach another Jesus.

John Darby said that the "Church has sought to settle itself here, but it has no place on the
earth... [Though] making a most constructive parenthesis, it forms no part of the regular order of God's earthly plans, but is merely an interruption of them to give a fuller character and meaning to them..."

John. N. Darby, 'The Character of Office in The Present Dispensation'
Collected Writings., Eccl. I, Vol. I, p. 94.

"Them" are all physical Israel, or Old Covenant Israel. The church, for Darby exists to "give fuller character and meaning to all physical Israel." Darby thought that the purpose of the Christian church, the ekklesia as a meeting, assembly or congregation of Israel reborn in Christ, made into The Body of Christ like the Catholic capital C Church, was to honor all physical Israel.

http://anothervoicerev184.blogspot.c...-of-jesus.html

"Return of Jesus Christ, The Rapture of the Church and the Second Coming of the Lord Jesus Christ, By Lewis Sperry Chafer 1871-1952."

Chafer says "The nation Israel, God's chosen earthly people, to whom at least five-sixths of the Bible is addressed and with whom the great covenants are made (Rom 9:4-5) -- which covenants secure to that nation a land, a nation, a throne, a King, and a kingdom -- are now scattered throughout all the nations of the earth (Deut 4:26-28; Deut 28:63-68; Jer 16:13), and are to remain scattered until they (a remnant; ed.) are gathered into their own land (Deut 30:3-6; Isa 11:11-12; Isa 14:1-3; Isa 60:1-22; Jer 23:6-8; Jer 32:37-44; Jer 33:7-9; Eze 37:21-25; Mic 4:6-8) under the reign of Christ Jesus at His return."

Lewis S. Chafer refers to physical Israel as God's earthy chosen people. And early dispensationalists talk about the church as being only a "parenthesis" within dispensations.

"Israel is an eternal nation, heir to an eternal land, with an eternal kingdom, on which David rules from an eternal throne so that in eternity, '...never the twain, Israel and church, shall meet." Lewis S. Chafer, Systematic Theology (Dallas, Dallas Seminary Press, 1975), Vol. 4. pp. 315-323..

The teaching of Christian Zionism that God now has two peoples, Old Covenant Israel, or physical Israel, and the Church, does not stand.

"And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd." John 10: 16

"For as we have many members in one body, and all members have not the same office: So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another." Romans 12: 4-5

"There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;" Ephesians 4: 4

An excellent post.

LA

Bradley D
November 3rd, 2015, 12:32 AM
"...do not consider yourself to be superior to those other branches. If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you. You will say then, 'Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in.' Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but tremble. For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either" (Romans 11:18-21).

The time of the Gentiles will come to an end. It has probably already started. Many claim to be Christians, but are not.


God has not stopped loving Israel/Jews.

"As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies for your sake; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs, for God’s gifts and his call are irrevocable. Just as you who were at one time disobedient to God have now received mercy as a result of their disobedience, so they too have now become disobedient in order that they too may now receive mercy as a result of God’s mercy to you " (Romans 11:28-31).

"... all Israel will be saved. As it is written:


'The deliverer will come from Zion;
he will turn godlessness away from Jacob.
And this is my covenant with them
when I take away their sins.” (Romans 11:26-27)

northwye
November 3rd, 2015, 06:48 AM
In Romans 11 Israel is cut off, and hardened but Israel is also saved. How is this possible? One major key to understanding this is in Romans 11: 1-5, where Paul is talking about a remnant of Old Covenant Israel that becomes the elect. By implication, since the remnant is a small number, then those who are cut off and hardened are the mass, the multitude or great majority.

See: http://biblehub.com/commentaries/calvin/romans/11.htm

Romans 11: 26. "And so all Israel, etc. Many understand this of the Jewish people, as though Paul had said, that religion would again be restored among them as before: but I extend the word Israel to all the people of God, according to this meaning, -- "When the Gentiles shall come in, the Jews also shall return from their defection to the obedience of faith; and thus shall be completed the salvation of the whole Israel of God, which must be gathered from both; and yet in such a way that the Jews shall obtain the first place, being as it were the first-born in God's family." This interpretation seems to me the most suitable, because Paul intended here to set forth the completion of the kingdom of Christ, which is by no means to be confined to the Jews, but is to include the whole world. The same manner of speaking we find in Galatians 6:16. The Israel of God is what he calls the Church, gathered alike from Jews and Gentiles; and he sets the people, thus collected from their dispersion, in opposition to the carnal children of Abraham, who had departed from his faith." John Calvin on Romans 11: 25-26

Calvinism is a complex topic and the interpretation that Israel in Romans 11: 26 is not Old Covenant Israel, but is all the elect of God does not belong only to Calvinism.

According to http://www.wlsessays.net/files/MuetzelRomans.pdf

"When Martin Luther lectured on Romans in 1517, he indicated that the Jewish
people would “return in their own time.” Later writings of Luther reveal a total rejection of the “general conversion” view."

How long will this hardening on the part of some in Old Covenant Israel go on? “Until the full number of the Gentiles has come in.” Jesus talked about this πλήρωμα (fullness) of the Gentiles. He said, “And the Gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come." Matthew 24: 14

Christian Zionism - the theology of John Darby, C.I. Scofield and Lewis S. Chafer - uses a peculiar way of interpreting scripture which is different from what Isaiah 28: 13 says. "...the word of God was unto them precept upon precept...line upon line, here a little, there a little, and there a little..."

Who Israel is in Romans 11: 26 must be interpreted by other scripture and not only by a man made theology. Romans 9: 6 says "For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel. " Romans 9: 8 goes on to say "That is, they which are the children of the flesh,these are not the children of God."

Romans 9: 6 is very brief and too concise for some to understand. Romans 9: 8 helps some in understanding Romans 9: 6 Paul is saying that there is an Israel of the flesh and an Israel, different fro. m the Israel of the flesh, and that the Israel of the flesh are not the children of God. For not all who are physical Israel are the Israel (spiritual) of God (Galatians 6: 16)

In I Corinthians 10: 18 Paul says "Behold Israel after the flesh..." This implies with certainty that there is another Israel, which is the children of God, and this other Israel comes into being in the New Covenant.

Galatians 4: 22-26 shows that there is a Jerusalem which now exists which is in bondage and another Jerusalem which is above, is free and is the mother of us all, meaning all who are born again in Christ Jesus by the Holy Spirit. Jerusalem is metaphoric for Israel.

Another scripture relevant to the issue of who Israel is in Romans 11: 26 is Galatians 3: 3, 16, 26-29. These verses do not support the theology that the Old Covenant still exists somehow and that those of the physical bloodline from Abraham are the chosen people as Christian Zionism says or implies.

In Romans 11: 17-20 Paul says those of Old Covenant Israel who rejected Christ were broken off. And Galatians 3: 3, 16, 26-29 says the physical bloodline from Abraham is now a spiritual inheritance. And now there is "Neither Jew nor Greek," and "if ye be Christ's then ye are Abraham's seed" meaning you are also the seed of God, the spiritual seed. God no longer calls or selects by use of the physical bloodline, a truth not in agreement with Christian Zionism.

Read Romans 11: 28 more carefully. "As concerning the Gospel, "they" are enemies for your sakes..." And " but as touching the election, "they" are beloved for the fathers' sakes." Who are "they" in the two parts of Romans 11: 28? Paul is talking about Israel after the flesh in the first part of the sentence, and the Israel of God (Galatians 6: 16) in the second part. Christian Zionism does not allow for this shift, as it does not allow for the shift from physical Israel to the Israel of the New Covenant in Romans 11: 25 to Romans 11: 26. Christian Zionism starts from the assumption that Israel in scripture must always be Old Covenant Israel. In addition, "they are beloved for the fathers' sakes" does not mean Israel is beloved for God's sake, but for the fathers, Abraham, Issac and Jacob.

beloved57
November 3rd, 2015, 07:08 AM
In Romans 11 Israel is cut off, and hardened but Israel is also saved. How is this possible? One major key to understanding this is in Romans 11: 1-5, where Paul is talking about a remnant of Old Covenant Israel that becomes the elect. By implication, since the remnant is a small number, then those who are cut off and hardened are the mass, the multitude or great majority.

See: http://biblehub.com/commentaries/calvin/romans/11.htm

Romans 11: 26. "And so all Israel, etc. Many understand this of the Jewish people, as though Paul had said, that religion would again be restored among them as before: but I extend the word Israel to all the people of God, according to this meaning, -- "When the Gentiles shall come in, the Jews also shall return from their defection to the obedience of faith; and thus shall be completed the salvation of the whole Israel of God, which must be gathered from both; and yet in such a way that the Jews shall obtain the first place, being as it were the first-born in God's family." This interpretation seems to me the most suitable, because Paul intended here to set forth the completion of the kingdom of Christ, which is by no means to be confined to the Jews, but is to include the whole world. The same manner of speaking we find in Galatians 6:16. The Israel of God is what he calls the Church, gathered alike from Jews and Gentiles; and he sets the people, thus collected from their dispersion, in opposition to the carnal children of Abraham, who had departed from his faith." John Calvin on Romans 11: 25-26

Calvinism is a complex topic and the interpretation that Israel in Romans 11: 26 is not Old Covenant Israel, but is all the elect of God does not belong only to Calvinism.

According to http://www.wlsessays.net/files/MuetzelRomans.pdf

"When Martin Luther lectured on Romans in 1517, he indicated that the Jewish
people would “return in their own time.” Later writings of Luther reveal a total rejection of the “general conversion” view."

How long will this hardening on the part of some in Old Covenant Israel go on? “Until the full number of the Gentiles has come in.” Jesus talked about this πλήρωμα (fullness) of the Gentiles. He said, “And the Gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come." Matthew 24: 14
....

Not Chosen Israel, just national israel according to the flesh, Paul makes a distinction Rom 11:7

What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest[national israel] were blinded.

Theres always been a distinction between ethnic national israel and the Elect/Chosen Israel, yet people have ignored it, to their own peril !

Paul had wrote earlier Rom 9:6

6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

One of these Israels is national Israel, the Other is a International Spiritual Israel, or one of them is Israel according to Abraham's physical seed, the other according to Abrahams Promised Spiritual Seed, One according to the flesh, one according to the Spirit and Promise Rom 9:8 !

The Chosen Elect Israel has not ever been cut off or cast away, Pauls meaning here Rom 11:1-2

I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.

2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel saying,

Totton Linnet
November 3rd, 2015, 04:37 PM
until the fullness of the Gentiles be brought in

northwye
November 3rd, 2015, 06:26 PM
In Christian Zionist theology. how does the falling away of II Thessalonians 2: 3-4 relate to its belief that Romans 11: 25-26 means that when the fullness of the Gentiles (the ethnon) occurs. then blindness will be removed from whoever at that time is identified as Old Covenant Israel. Remember that there are several other prophecies about an apostasy, such as Luke 13: 18-21, I Timothy 4: 1. II Timothy 3: 5, 7-8, II Timothy 4: 3-4 and there are those prophecies about the false prophets, such as Matthew 24: 11, and II Peter 2: 1-3, which imply for sure that there is an apostasy.

In Christian Zionist end time prophecy I thought that the falling away of II Thessalonians 2: 3-4 is always future and that it happens only when the one man super anti-Christ appears.

In the period of the falling away how does Christian Zionism tell the difference between the apostasy of the Ethnos (the peoples, the nations) and the coming to the fullness of the Ethnos, which Christian Zionist apparently insists is the Gentiles.

Christian Zionism cannot see that its own history is a part of the falling away, which has 19th century origins.

As I understand Christian Zionist theology, the falling away of the Church from sound doctrine occurs only near the very end of the Church age, and that there is in that theology no apostasy, or faling away from sound doctrine now in the Christian Zionist Churches. And Christian Zionism does not recognize the remnant in Revelation 12: 17, and claims that the 144,000 is made up only of Jews.

This means that in Christian Zionism there is no understanding of the pinciple of the remnant, that at times of apostasy of the multitude God always has a remnant who, as Revelation 12: 17 says, have the testimony of Jesus Christ. In Christian Zionist end time prophecy, apparently at a point in time the ethnos (Gentiles to the Christian Zionists) are no longer really Christians, and only whoever at that time is Old Covenant Israel become the Christians, or become God's people..

beloved57
November 3rd, 2015, 06:43 PM
until the fullness of the Gentiles be brought in

God has never cast away His People Israel! The Israel He cast away was not His People! You don't understand post 7 do you?

Totton Linnet
November 3rd, 2015, 07:38 PM
God has never cast away His People Israel! The Israel He cast away was not His People! You don't understand post 7 do you?

I understand it but I don't agree with it...I understand most doctrines I don't agree with.

Because

There is only one Israel, that is national Israel, Paul speaks of the church as the Israel of God and truly the church is for we are grafted into Israel, we are the shoot, they are the root, all one olive tree. They the earthly, we the heavenly.

That is a long passage in which Paul deals with Israel, understanding Paul how he debates with himself on a subject throwing up first one scenario and then another only to throw them down before he sums up with what is the true position.

In the 11th chapter of Romans he sums up, it is here that we find Israel's true position.

Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles how much more their fullness?

For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world what shall the receiving of them be but life from the dead?

For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which by nature is wild by nature and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree HOW MUCH MORE will these which be the natural branches be graffed into their own olive tree?

For I would not brethren that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own conceits that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles be come in

And so all Israel shall be saved as it is written

There shall come of sion the Deliverer and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob. For this is My covenant with them when I shall take away their sins

As concerning the gospel they are enemies for our sakes but as touching election they are beloved for the father's sake. For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

This is Paul's summation and the end of his argument.

I totally fail to see how folk who BELIEVE in Election can write Israel off.

beloved57
November 3rd, 2015, 08:10 PM
tl


I understand it but I don't agree with it.

Ok Prove it, how did I make my points ?

Totton Linnet
November 3rd, 2015, 08:10 PM
It is those who were cast away who are to be received, they who were graffed out are the ones who will be graffed back in


....not the remnant, they were not cast out

Totton Linnet
November 3rd, 2015, 08:12 PM
tl



Ok Prove it, how did I make my points ?

you skip over those scriptures which I have supplied

beloved57
November 3rd, 2015, 08:24 PM
you skip over those scriptures which I have supplied

You skipped over mine first! Are you going to prove it or not?

Totton Linnet
November 3rd, 2015, 08:31 PM
The scriptures I posted which you skipped over was Paul's summing up of all he had been saying and he sums up by saying all Israel will be saved.


I suspect that "all" does not mean every single

northwye
November 4th, 2015, 07:15 AM
Galatians 6: 16, " And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God." Who the Israel of God is here is understood from Romans 9: 6-8 and from I Corinthians 10: 18.

For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel." Romans 9: 6

"They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed." Romans 9: 8

All who are of Israel according to the flesh, are not Israel reborn in Christ. Paul says also in I Corinthians 10: 18, "Behold, Israel after the flesh..." In Galatians 6: 16 Paul does not simply say "...peace be upon them, and mercy upon Israel." He defines this Israel as the Israel of God, different from Israel according to the flesh.

Another way of looking at the Israel which is of God, different from Israel according to the flesh, is that the Israel of God is that Israel which is said to be remade by God in Jeremiah 18: 4. And remember Hosea 2: 23 is a prophecy saying that God was to make a people which were not his people the people of God, in effect, adding them to the Israel of God. And in Ephesians 2: 12-20 the Gentiles are said to have been aliens to Israel and without Christ, but are made close by the blood of Christ. Close to what? To Israel, but now, not close to Israel of the flesh, but close to the Israel of God.

Also - "Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?" Galatians 3: 3

Israel after the flesh (I Corinthians 10: 18) is not the people of God (Romans 9: 8)

"Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ." Galatians 3: 16

"For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
27. For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
28. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
29. And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise." Galatians 3: 26-29

The inheritance from Abraham became spiritual, and is no longer physical, as in the Old Covenant. This is why Israel after the flesh, who reject Christ in an explicit way, and are not born again, are not the children of God. To say that God will select Israel after the flesh to become saved at some time in the future for Christian Zionists - on the basis of their claim to be the physical descendants of Abraham - would not be consistent with Galatians 3.

"The glory of this latter house shall be greater than of the former, saith the LORD of hosts: and in this place will I give peace, saith the LORD of hosts." Haggai 2: 9

Totton Linnet
November 4th, 2015, 07:49 AM
Here is where you make a mistake.

You suppose that being Israel of the flesh is to be wholly cast off by God.

Go back to Jacob and Esau, we know that Jacob by trickery inherited the promise...what you are supposing is that Esau is damned.

You can't prove that, he is still seed of Abraham the promise of the land still belongs to him and we see that he is at the last reconciled to Jacob.

We have never said that fleshly Israel's inheritance will be heaven, God's promise to them is not heaven...but the land IS promised to them, and not the land only but the ends of the earth.

But I put it to you that Paul says that God's plan

"for the fullness of time is to reconcile ALL things to Himself, whether they be things in heaven or things on earth through our Lord Jesus Christ."

The fullness of times is the Mill....how do I know that?

Because Christ and His apostles have shown us graphically what conditions will prevail on earth right up to the second coming of our Lord and the end of this age

War, famine, natural disasters

Anything BUT all things being reconciled to God, so this reconciliation or as Peter calls it the restoration of all things as spoken by the mouth of all the prophets since the world began will take place after the Lord returns.

At last the kingdom of heaven will be manifest ON EARTH. The prayer we have been taught to pray will be answered, "Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven" The church Jew/Gentile will rule with Christ from heaven....the Jews will reign with Christ on earth.

beloved57
November 4th, 2015, 07:51 AM
The scriptures I posted which you skipped over was Paul's summing up of all he had been saying and he sums up by saying all Israel will be saved.


I suspect that "all" does not mean every single

You skipped over the scriptures I posted !

northwye
November 4th, 2015, 08:37 AM
Any person can accept Christ, be born again, and become part of the elect. But Christian Zionism acts as a proxy or agent for the multitude of Old Covenant Israel which became Talmudic Judaism.

And - to say that the Old Covenant is still in effect in some way is making an argument against the absolute truth of scripture. It is the dialectic.

John Darby, C. I. Scofield and Lewis S. Chafer were probably not under an influence from Karl Marx. But during the 20th century Transformational Marxism invaded, to some extent, much of the church, while it was becoming an influence upon other institutions of society. Marxism makes a peculiar use of the Hegelian Dialectic. It uses the dialectic as a belief and attitude change procedure.

"In the eyes of the dialectical philosophy, nothing is established for
all time, nothing is absolute or sacred." Karl Marx

Benjamin Bloom, who wrote the two volume book on the Taxonomy
of Educational Goal Objectives, by which all teachers must be
certified, said "“We recognize the point of view that
truth and knowledge are only relative and that there are no hard and
fast truths which exist for all time and places.” (Benjamin Bloom, et
al., Taxonomy of Educational Objectives, Book 1, Cognitive Domain)

"Once the earthly family is discovered to be the secret of the
heavenly family, the former must be destroyed (annihilated), in theory
and in practice." Karl Marx, Feuerbach Thesis #4

“The individual accepts the new system of values and beliefs by
accepting belongingness to the group.” Kurt Lewin in Kenneth Benne
Human Relations in Curriculum Change

There is a subtle reference to the dialectic as used in Greek philosophy before the time of Christ in I Timothy 6: 20.

"O Timothy, keep that which is committed to thy trust, avoiding profane and vain babblings, and oppositions of science falsely so called:"

ω τιμοθεε την παρακαταθηκην φυλαξον εκτρεπομενος τας βεβηλους κενοφωνιας και αντιθεσεις της ψευδωνυμου γνωσεως

O Timothy, keep that which is committed to your trust, avoiding profane and vain babblings, and antithesis of knowledge, so called.

αντιθεσεις, or anti-thesis, is a term from Greek philosophy, and part of the terminology of the early Greek dialectic procedure in philosophy.

Scripture is absolute truth and the Marxist version of the ancient Greek dialectic, updated by Hegel, teaches that no truth or moral is absolute, but that truths and morals are subject to change.

The dialectic is a belief and attitude change procedure which challenges absolute truth, including that of the Bible.

beloved57
November 4th, 2015, 08:41 AM
northw


Any person can accept Christ, be born again

Thats a strange religion, not found in the scripture !

northwye
November 4th, 2015, 11:23 AM
Get a concordance and look up "whosoever." "Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God..." I John 5: 1 Thats not the only place that uses whosoever in talking about salvation and election.

beloved57
November 4th, 2015, 02:25 PM
Get a concordance and look up "whosoever." "Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God..." I John 5: 1 Thats not the only place that uses whosoever in talking about salvation and election.

You show me the verse that reads : anyone can accept Jesus Christ and be born again!

Bright Raven
November 4th, 2015, 02:34 PM
You show me the verse that reads : anyone can accept Jesus Christ and be born again!Romans 3:22 New Living Translation (NLT)

22 We are made right with God by placing our faith in Jesus Christ. And this is true for everyone who believes, no matter who we are.

Elia
November 17th, 2015, 12:58 AM
It Has Been A Long Time Since Old Covenant Israel Was the Chosen People

Exodus 19: 5-6 says "Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine: And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.”

“For thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God: the LORD thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth.” Deuteronomy 7: 6

“Blessed be Egypt my people, and Assyria the work of my hands, and Israel mine inheritance.” Isaiah 19: 25

But look at Exodus 19: 5-6. It says “If” Old Covenant Israel obeys God, then it will be a peculiar treasure above all people. The chosen people status was conditional, not unconditional, based upon the physical DNA from Abraham.

Bs"d

The Christian churches believe in the theory that G.d rejected His chosen people, and that instead the Christians are the new spiritual Israel. However, G.d says clearly in the Holy Torah that He will never break his covenant with the Jewish people, even not when they stray away from Him. When the Jews go astray G.d will punish them. (Leviticus 26:14-17) And if they then still don't listen, G.d will punish them seven times harder. (idem:18-22) And if they then still don't listen, G.d will punish them another seven times harder. (idem:23-24) And if they then still refuse to turn back to G.d, He will punish them another seven times harder. (idem:27-28) But despite all this, G.d will not break His covenant with the Jewish people: Leviticus 26:44-45; "And yet for all that, I will not cast them away, neither will I abhor them, to destroy them utterly, and to break My covenant with them: For I am Y-H-W-H their G.d. But I will for their sakes remember the covenant of their ancestors, whom I brought forth out of the land of Egypt in the sight of the heathen, that I might be their G.d: I am Y-H-W-H."

"Considerest thou not what this people have spoken, saying: The two families that the LORD hath chosen, He has even cast them of? Thus they have despised My people, that they should no more be a nation before them. Thus saith the LORD: If My covenant be not with day and night, and if I have not appointed the ordinances of heaven and earth; Then will I cast away the seed of Jacob and David my servant, so that I will not take any of his seed to be rulers over the seed of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob: for I will cause their captivety to return and have mercy on them." Jeremiah 33:24-26

If G.d rejected the Jews, why then is He now fulfilling the prophecies that He will gather in the Jews and bring them back to their land? "Fear not, for I am with thee, I will bring thy seed from the east, and gather thee from the west. I will say to the north; give up, and to the south; keep not back: Bring my sons from far, and My daughters from the ends of the earth." Isaiah 43:5+6 The whole world witnesses this miracle, how after almost 2000 years of dispersion over the whole earth the Jews are returning to Israel. In just 50 years a state has been built from scratch, the Hebrew language has been revived. Is there any precedent in history for this? Is there any other people that was dispersed throughout the whole world for almost 2000 years that held on to their identity and their religion?---Surely we see here the hand of G.d. However, this is not the final in gathering of Jews, that is to be done by the messiah. The final in gathering will be after the war of Gog from Magog with Israel. This is described by the prophet Ezekiel, in Ezekiel 38 and 39. Please read these two chapters in order to get a good overview of this. Ezekiel 38:8; "In the latter years thou shall come into the land that is brought back from the sword, and is gathered out of many people, against the mountains of Israel." Here it is prophesied that Gog will attack Israel, a land that is brought out of many nations. We see now that the Jews from the whole world are coming home. The Jews are coming from Africa, America, all the European countries have given their share of Jews, we have had mass immigration from Russia, the Jews are coming home from all over the world. But, the final complete ingathering of the Jews will be after the war of Gog from Magog with Israel. This war and G.d's terrible punishment upon Gog are described in the latter part of chapter 38 and the beginning of chapter 39. And after that it is written in chapter 39, verse 25: "Therefore, thus saith the LORD G.d: now I will bring back the captivity of Jacob, and have mercy on the whole house of Israel… " So the final complete in gathering will be later.

Why is Gog attacking Israel? Ezekiel 38:12: "To take spoil and to take a prey". idem verse 13: "Art thou come to take spoil? Hast thou gathered thy company to take a prey? To carry away silver and gold? To take away cattle and goods, to take a great spoil?" Here we see that the attack is in order to carry away large amounts of riches that have accumulated in Israel. Fifty years ago the state of Israel started with less than 500,000 people in a piece of desolated desert, with no natural resources whatsoever. On the contrary; even water is a problem. It was attacked right away by fifty million Arab neighbours, yet by a miracle it survived. The state was faced with major problems, like constant terrorism from hostile neighbors and full-blown wars. Israel has to spend enormous amounts of money for defense in order to survive. Israel has been faced with mass immigration. For instance, since '89 almost a million Russian immigrants arrived, which is an enormous strain upon such a small nation. But nevertheless, what is the result? Israel has a level of prosperity comparable to many western countries. Israel has joined the twenty richest countries in the world, and financial experts think that Israel is fast on its way to the top. Surely the blessings of G.d are worth much more than an abundance of oil or gold mines.
.
.
.

northwye
November 18th, 2015, 07:43 AM
"For ye were sometimes darkness, but now are ye light in the Lord: walk as children of light:" Ephesians 5: 8

Israel, With Christ In It, Is the Light To the World

Isaiah 42: 6-7 says "I the LORD have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentile; 7. To open the blind eyes, to bring out the prisoners from the prison, and them that sit in darkness out of the prison house."

At first Old Covenant Israel was the light to the nations, or to the Gentiles. Later, the light will become Christ himself. Then, it becomes his 12 disciples and in Paul the light becomes all believers in Christ.

Isaiah 9: 2: "The people that walked in darkness have seen a great light: they that dwell in the land of the shadow of death, upon them hath the light shined."

The great light the people were to see was Christ, who as the savior of Israel, is the light to the Gentiles. Physical Israel was to be blessed because the light of the world was to come through them. But as John 1: 11 says "He came unto his own, and his own received him not."

Matthew 23: 38 records that Jerusalem, or Old Covenant Israel, as a house, is left desolate, meaning the light of Christ no longer shines in it.

Christ teaches in John 8: 12 that "I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life."

Physical Old Covenant Israel is no longer the light of the world, or the light to the nations, because Christ is not in it.

Physical Old Covenant Israel does not now exist as a people of God. The light is no longer in what claims to be Old Covenant Israel, because what claims to be Israel is anti-Christ. Talmudic Judaism is not Old Covenant Israel as Old Covenant Israel existed under the Pharisees at the time of Christ.

Old Covenant Israel was remade - Jeremiah 18: 1-6, especially verse 4, "...so he made it again another vessel,as seemed good to the potter to make it."

The New Covenant was started in the remnant of Israel in Romans 11: 5. Soon, as recorded in Acts 10, Hosea 2: 23 - "I will say to them which are not my people, thou art my people..." was fulfilled.

The rejection of Jeremiah 18: 4, Romans 11: 5, Romans 9: 6-8, Galatians 3: 3, 16, 27-29 and Haggai 2: 9 - "The glory of this latter house shall be greater than of the former..." - led to the falling away of II Thessalonians 2: 3-4.

In the falling away from sound doctrine and in the loss of Christ the light by the Church in the apostasy the Christian Zionist Church teaches that God now has two peoples, the multitude of Old Covenant Israel, which is Talmudic Judaism, and the Church. "And the light of a candle shall shine no more at all in thee; and the voice of the bridegroom and of the bride shall be heard no more at all in thee..." Revelation 18: 23

Caino
November 18th, 2015, 08:08 AM
"Chosen people" was their choice of words just like "gentile dog" was. The Jews wrote, rewrote, redacted and edited the OT books in Babylon. They made NO claim to be writing by inspiration. They were writing for the child like mind of bronze age sheep herders. It wasn't until the return to Jerusalem that later members of the elite priest class traditionalized the revised books, they became scripture.

beloved57
November 18th, 2015, 08:51 AM
National Israel, Abraham's seed according to the flesh, was never God's Chosen/Elect People, for he by Paul made a distinction between the Chosen and the Nation here Rom 11:7 the rest here is the Nation in lieu of the Chosen/Election !

jamie
November 18th, 2015, 08:58 AM
However, G.d says clearly in the Holy Torah that He will never break his covenant with the Jewish people...


Let's say for the sake of discussion that God made a covenant with all the people of Jacob. God separated ten tribes from Judah so that their destiny would be independent of Judah. Are the ten tribes Jews? No.

Is the covenant made at Sinai the only covenant God is allowed to make? We know it's not because God has promised a new covenant to Israel and Judah.

However, the covenant God made with Abraham is not negated by the Sinai covenant which came much later. God promised Abraham that through him all families of the earth would be blessed.

God has not broken his covenant with the people of Jacob but he has set it aside because of the peoples' unbelief.

You can talk all you want but only God can restore that covenant.

Lazy afternoon
November 20th, 2015, 03:31 AM
Bs"d

The Christian churches believe in the theory that G.d rejected His chosen people, and that instead the Christians are the new spiritual Israel. However, G.d says clearly in the Holy Torah that He will never break his covenant with the Jewish people, even not when they stray away from Him. When the Jews go astray G.d will punish them. (Leviticus 26:14-17) And if they then still don't listen, G.d will punish them seven times harder. (idem:18-22) And if they then still don't listen, G.d will punish them another seven times harder. (idem:23-24) And if they then still refuse to turn back to G.d, He will punish them another seven times harder. (idem:27-28) But despite all this, G.d will not break His covenant with the Jewish people: Leviticus 26:44-45; "And yet for all that, I will not cast them away, neither will I abhor them, to destroy them utterly, and to break My covenant with them: For I am Y-H-W-H their G.d. But I will for their sakes remember the covenant of their ancestors, whom I brought forth out of the land of Egypt in the sight of the heathen, that I might be their G.d: I am Y-H-W-H."

"Considerest thou not what this people have spoken, saying: The two families that the LORD hath chosen, He has even cast them of? Thus they have despised My people, that they should no more be a nation before them. Thus saith the LORD: If My covenant be not with day and night, and if I have not appointed the ordinances of heaven and earth; Then will I cast away the seed of Jacob and David my servant, so that I will not take any of his seed to be rulers over the seed of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob: for I will cause their captivety to return and have mercy on them." Jeremiah 33:24-26

If G.d rejected the Jews, why then is He now fulfilling the prophecies that He will gather in the Jews and bring them back to their land? "Fear not, for I am with thee, I will bring thy seed from the east, and gather thee from the west. I will say to the north; give up, and to the south; keep not back: Bring my sons from far, and My daughters from the ends of the earth." Isaiah 43:5+6 The whole world witnesses this miracle, how after almost 2000 years of dispersion over the whole earth the Jews are returning to Israel. In just 50 years a state has been built from scratch, the Hebrew language has been revived. Is there any precedent in history for this? Is there any other people that was dispersed throughout the whole world for almost 2000 years that held on to their identity and their religion?---Surely we see here the hand of G.d. However, this is not the final in gathering of Jews, that is to be done by the messiah. The final in gathering will be after the war of Gog from Magog with Israel. This is described by the prophet Ezekiel, in Ezekiel 38 and 39. Please read these two chapters in order to get a good overview of this. Ezekiel 38:8; "In the latter years thou shall come into the land that is brought back from the sword, and is gathered out of many people, against the mountains of Israel." Here it is prophesied that Gog will attack Israel, a land that is brought out of many nations. We see now that the Jews from the whole world are coming home. The Jews are coming from Africa, America, all the European countries have given their share of Jews, we have had mass immigration from Russia, the Jews are coming home from all over the world. But, the final complete ingathering of the Jews will be after the war of Gog from Magog with Israel. This war and G.d's terrible punishment upon Gog are described in the latter part of chapter 38 and the beginning of chapter 39. And after that it is written in chapter 39, verse 25: "Therefore, thus saith the LORD G.d: now I will bring back the captivity of Jacob, and have mercy on the whole house of Israel… " So the final complete in gathering will be later.

Why is Gog attacking Israel? Ezekiel 38:12: "To take spoil and to take a prey". idem verse 13: "Art thou come to take spoil? Hast thou gathered thy company to take a prey? To carry away silver and gold? To take away cattle and goods, to take a great spoil?" Here we see that the attack is in order to carry away large amounts of riches that have accumulated in Israel. Fifty years ago the state of Israel started with less than 500,000 people in a piece of desolated desert, with no natural resources whatsoever. On the contrary; even water is a problem. It was attacked right away by fifty million Arab neighbours, yet by a miracle it survived. The state was faced with major problems, like constant terrorism from hostile neighbors and full-blown wars. Israel has to spend enormous amounts of money for defense in order to survive. Israel has been faced with mass immigration. For instance, since '89 almost a million Russian immigrants arrived, which is an enormous strain upon such a small nation. But nevertheless, what is the result? Israel has a level of prosperity comparable to many western countries. Israel has joined the twenty richest countries in the world, and financial experts think that Israel is fast on its way to the top. Surely the blessings of G.d are worth much more than an abundance of oil or gold mines.
.
.
.



The enemies of Christ all unite against the Lords people, and the Jews are on the side of the enemies of God.

Unless they be converted and their sins be blotted out.

The only riches the land of Israel will have are the true Christians.(people in Christ regardless of their flesh type).

The dragon hates Christians but loves unconverted Jews.

LA

Elia
November 20th, 2015, 03:43 AM
"Chosen people" was their choice of words just like "gentile dog" was. The Jews wrote, rewrote, redacted and edited the OT books in Babylon. They made NO claim to be writing by inspiration. They were writing for the child like mind of bronze age sheep herders. It wasn't until the return to Jerusalem that later members of the elite priest class traditionalized the revised books, they became scripture.

Bs"d

Any proofs for the above claims?

No, I didn't think so either.

Elia
November 20th, 2015, 03:46 AM
Bs'd

God chose ISRAEL:

"For you are a people holy to J-H-W-H your God; J-H-W-H your God has chosen you out of all the peoples on earth to be his people, his treasured possession."
Deut 7:6

"Although heaven and the heaven of heavens belong to J-H-W-H your God, the earth with all that is in it, yet J-H-W-H set his heart in love on your ancestors alone and chose you, their descendants after them, out of all the peoples, as it is today."
Deut 10:14

"For you are a people holy to J-H-W-H your God; it is you J-H-W-H has chosen out of all the peoples on earth to be his people, his treasured possession."
Deut 14:2

"But now hear, O Jacob my servant, Israel whom I have chosen! Thus says J-H-W-H who made you, who formed you in the womb and will help you: Do not fear, O Jacob my servant, Jeshurun whom I have chosen. For I will pour water on the thirsty land, and streams on the dry ground;
I will pour my spirit upon your descendants, and my blessing on your offspring."
Isaiah 44:1

There are many more passages like this, it is clear that Israel is chosen by God.

Chosen for what?

"Now therefore, if you obey my voice and keep my covenant, you shall be my treasured possession out of all the peoples. Indeed, the whole earth is mine, but you shall be for me a priestly kingdom and a holy nation. These are the words that you shall speak to the Israelites.”
Ex 19:6

Can this chosenness be temporarily, or can it be taken away from the Jews?


Thus says J-H-W-H,
who gives the sun for light by day
and the fixed order of the moon and the stars for light by night,
who stirs up the sea so that its waves roar—
J-H-W-H of hosts is his name:
If this fixed order were ever to cease
from my presence, says J-H-W-H,
then also the offspring of Israel would cease
to be a nation before me forever.

Thus says J-H-W-H:
If the heavens above can be measured,
and the foundations of the earth below can be explored,
then I will reject all the offspring of Israel
because of all they have done,
says J-H-W-H.
Jer 31:35



This is like the days of Noah to me:
Just as I swore that the waters of Noah
would never again go over the earth,
so I have sworn that I will not be angry with you
and will not rebuke you.
For the mountains may depart
and the hills be removed,
but my steadfast love shall not depart from you,
and my covenant of peace shall not be removed,
says J-H-W-H, who has compassion on you.
Is 54:10

If Israel sins, will God break the covenant?

When the Jews go astray God will punish them. "But if you will not obey me, and do not observe all these commandments, if you spurn my statutes, and abhor my ordinances, so that you will not observe all my commandments, and you break my covenant, I in turn will do this to you: I will bring terror on you; consumption and fever that waste the eyes and cause life to pine away. You shall sow your seed in vain, for your enemies shall eat it. I will set my face against you, and you shall be struck down by your enemies; your foes shall rule over you, and you shall flee though no one pursues you." (Leviticus 26:14-17) And if they then still don't listen, God will punish them seven times harder: " And if in spite of this you will not obey me, I will continue to punish you sevenfold for your sins. I will break your proud glory, and I will make your sky like iron and your earth like copper. Your strength shall be spent to no purpose: your land shall not yield its produce, and the trees of the land shall not yield their fruit." (ibid :18-22) And if they then still don't listen, God will punish them another seven times harder: "If you continue hostile to me, and will not obey me, I will continue to plague you sevenfold for your sins. I will let loose wild animals against you, and they shall bereave you of your children and destroy your livestock; they shall make you few in number, and your roads shall be deserted." (ibid :23-24) And if they then still refuse to turn back to God, He will punish them another seven times harder: "If in spite of these punishments you have not turned back to me, but continue hostile to me, then I too will continue hostile to you: I myself will strike you sevenfold for your sins. I will bring the sword against you, executing vengeance for the covenant; and if you withdraw within your cities, I will send pestilence among you, and you shall be delivered into enemy hands. When I break your staff of bread, ten women shall bake your bread in a single oven, and they shall dole out your bread by weight; and though you eat, you shall not be satisfied. (ibid :27-28)

But despite all this, God will not break His covenant with the Jewish people: Leviticus 26:44-45; "And yet for all that, I will not cast them away, neither will I abhor them, to destroy them utterly, and to break My covenant with them: For I am J-H-W-H their God. But I will for their sakes remember the covenant of their ancestors, whom I brought forth out of the land of Egypt in the sight of the heathen, that I might be their God: I am J-H-W-H."


"Considerest thou not what this people have spoken, saying: The two families that J-H-W-H hath chosen, He has even cast them of? Thus they have despised My people, that they should no more be a nation before them. Thus saith J-H-W-H: If My covenant be not with day and night, and if I have not appointed the ordinances of heaven and earth; Then will I cast away the seed of Jacob and David my servant, so that I will not take any of his seed to be rulers over the seed of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob: for I will cause their captivety to return and have mercy on them."
Jeremiah 33:24-26


So is God a respector of persons?

"I have loved you, says J-H-W-H. But you say, “How have you loved us?” Is not Esau Jacob’s brother? says J-H-W-H. Yet I have loved Jacob but I have hated Esau;"
Mal 1:2

“And now, Israel, what does J-H-W-H your God require of you, but to fear J-H-W-H your God, to walk in all His ways and to love Him, to serve J-H-W-H your God with all your heart and with all your soul, and to keep the commandments of J-H-W-H and His statutes which I command you today for your good? Indeed heaven and the highest heavens belong to J-H-W-H your God, also the earth with all that is in it. J-H-W-H delighted only in your fathers, to love them; and He chose their descendants after them, you above all peoples, as it is this day."
Deut 10:12

Apperently, He is.





"For all people will walk every one in the name of his god, and we will walk in the name of Y-H-W-H our God for ever and ever.".
Micah 4:5.
.
.
.

iamaberean
November 20th, 2015, 05:19 AM
"...do not consider yourself to be superior to those other branches. If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you. You will say then, 'Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in.' Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but tremble. For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either" (Romans 11:18-21).

The time of the Gentiles will come to an end. It has probably already started. Many claim to be Christians, but are not.


God has not stopped loving Israel/Jews.

"As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies for your sake; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs, for God’s gifts and his call are irrevocable. Just as you who were at one time disobedient to God have now received mercy as a result of their disobedience, so they too have now become disobedient in order that they too may now receive mercy as a result of God’s mercy to you " (Romans 11:28-31).

"... all Israel will be saved. As it is written:


'The deliverer will come from Zion;
he will turn godlessness away from Jacob.
And this is my covenant with them
when I take away their sins.” (Romans 11:26-27)

The covenant with the Jews was a marriage. When the wife, Jews, went a whoring with the worldly gods he divorced her and took a new wife, Christians. That is why we read about the Old Jerusalem and the New Jerusalem. The old was done away with.

Deu 24:4 Her former husband, which sent her away, may not take her again to be his wife, after that she is defiled; for that is abomination before the LORD: and thou shalt not cause the land to sin, which the LORD thy God giveth thee for an inheritance.

Jews may also become the bride of Christ, but that requires turning away from the old and accepting Jesus as their messiah. That does not do away with the new, Christians.

Elia
November 20th, 2015, 05:52 AM
The covenant with the Jews was a marriage. When the wife, Jews, went a whoring with the worldly gods he divorced her and took a new wife, Christians. That is why we read about the Old Jerusalem and the New Jerusalem. The old was done away with.

Deu 24:4 Her former husband, which sent her away, may not take her again to be his wife, after that she is defiled; for that is abomination before the LORD: and thou shalt not cause the land to sin, which the LORD thy God giveth thee for an inheritance.

Jews may also become the bride of Christ, but that requires turning away from the old and accepting Jesus as their messiah. That does not do away with the new, Christians.

Bs"d

Thus says J-H-W-H,
who gives the sun for light by day
and the fixed order of the moon and the stars for light by night,
who stirs up the sea so that its waves roar—
J-H-W-H of hosts is his name:
If this fixed order were ever to cease
from my presence, says J-H-W-H,
then also the offspring of Israel would cease
to be a nation before me forever.

Thus says J-H-W-H:
If the heavens above can be measured,
and the foundations of the earth below can be explored,
then I will reject all the offspring of Israel
because of all they have done,
says J-H-W-H.
Jer 31:35



This is like the days of Noah to me:
Just as I swore that the waters of Noah
would never again go over the earth,
so I have sworn that I will not be angry with you
and will not rebuke you.
For the mountains may depart
and the hills be removed,
but my steadfast love shall not depart from you,
and my covenant of peace shall not be removed,
says J-H-W-H, who has compassion on you.
Is 54:10

If Israel sins, will God break the covenant?

When the Jews go astray God will punish them. "But if you will not obey me, and do not observe all these commandments, if you spurn my statutes, and abhor my ordinances, so that you will not observe all my commandments, and you break my covenant, I in turn will do this to you: I will bring terror on you; consumption and fever that waste the eyes and cause life to pine away. You shall sow your seed in vain, for your enemies shall eat it. I will set my face against you, and you shall be struck down by your enemies; your foes shall rule over you, and you shall flee though no one pursues you." (Leviticus 26:14-17) And if they then still don't listen, God will punish them seven times harder: " And if in spite of this you will not obey me, I will continue to punish you sevenfold for your sins. I will break your proud glory, and I will make your sky like iron and your earth like copper. Your strength shall be spent to no purpose: your land shall not yield its produce, and the trees of the land shall not yield their fruit." (ibid :18-22) And if they then still don't listen, God will punish them another seven times harder: "If you continue hostile to me, and will not obey me, I will continue to plague you sevenfold for your sins. I will let loose wild animals against you, and they shall bereave you of your children and destroy your livestock; they shall make you few in number, and your roads shall be deserted." (ibid :23-24) And if they then still refuse to turn back to God, He will punish them another seven times harder: "If in spite of these punishments you have not turned back to me, but continue hostile to me, then I too will continue hostile to you: I myself will strike you sevenfold for your sins. I will bring the sword against you, executing vengeance for the covenant; and if you withdraw within your cities, I will send pestilence among you, and you shall be delivered into enemy hands. When I break your staff of bread, ten women shall bake your bread in a single oven, and they shall dole out your bread by weight; and though you eat, you shall not be satisfied. (ibid :27-28)

But despite all this, God will not break His covenant with the Jewish people: Leviticus 26:44-45; "And yet for all that, I will not cast them away, neither will I abhor them, to destroy them utterly, and to break My covenant with them: For I am J-H-W-H their God. But I will for their sakes remember the covenant of their ancestors, whom I brought forth out of the land of Egypt in the sight of the heathen, that I might be their God: I am J-H-W-H."


"Considerest thou not what this people have spoken, saying: The two families that J-H-W-H hath chosen, He has even cast them of? Thus they have despised My people, that they should no more be a nation before them. Thus saith J-H-W-H: If My covenant be not with day and night, and if I have not appointed the ordinances of heaven and earth; Then will I cast away the seed of Jacob and David my servant, so that I will not take any of his seed to be rulers over the seed of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob: for I will cause their captivety to return and have mercy on them."
Jeremiah 33:24-26



"For all people will walk every one in the name of his god, and we will walk in the name of Y-H-W-H our God for ever and ever.".
Micah 4:5.
.
.
.

iamaberean
November 20th, 2015, 06:56 AM
Bs"d



Elia,

Obviously, you are right about the scripture you quoted, but what we have to is look at the whole picture. The Jews that God did not divorce were those of faith. His disciples and all the others that accepted him as their messiah were the Jews of faith. These are the ones who preached the new covenant. Paul even said a remnant of the Jews would be saved and God's promises, in the old testament, were always intended for those Jews of faith not to those of the flesh and a large part of those of the flesh were the scribes and Pharisees who only played the part of being God's chosen.

by the way what do you mean by 'Bs"d'

chair
November 20th, 2015, 07:25 AM
The enemies of Christ all unite against the Lords people, and the Jews are on the side of the enemies of God.

Unless they be converted and their sins be blotted out.

The only riches the land of Israel will have are the true Christians.(people in Christ regardless of their flesh type).

The dragon hates Christians but loves unconverted Jews.

LA

Let me guess. Some of your best friends are Jews...

northwye
November 20th, 2015, 08:36 AM
"And I will stretch over Jerusalem the line of Samaria, and the plummet of the house of Ahab: and I will wipe Jerusalem as a man wipeth a dish, wiping it, and turning it upside down." II Kings 21: 13

"Surely your turning of things upside down shall be esteemed as the potter's clay: for shall the work say of him that made it, He made me not? or shall the thing framed say of him that framed it, He had no understanding?" Isaiah 29: 16

"Then I went down to the potter's house, and, behold, he wrought a work on the wheels.
4. And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it.
5. Then the word of the LORD came to me, saying,
6. O house of Israel, cannot I do with you as this potter? saith the LORD. Behold, as the clay is in the potter's hand, so are ye in mine hand, O house of Israel." Jeremiah 18: 3-6

The Church did not replace Old Covenant Israel, nor does Old Covenant Israel now exist alongside the Church. The Church is a translation of ekklesia, a meeting, assembly or congregation. All doctrine is established on the basis of the meanings of the Hebrew and Greek words used in that doctrine.

To say that the Church replaced Old Covenant Israel is like saying the meeting of the local Democratic Party replaced the Republican Party. A meeting or assembly is not a proper noun. But Israel is a proper noun.

Israel did not end with the New Covenant. A remnant of Old Covenant Israel came out of that Old Covenant and began the New Covenant. God's people are always Israel. The people claiming the bloodline cannot accept this because they want to maintain their superior status by that which is physical, their bloodline. Read Malachi 1 and 2.

iamaberean
November 20th, 2015, 12:05 PM
Israel did not end with the New Covenant. A remnant of Old Covenant Israel came out of that Old Covenant and began the New Covenant. God's people are always Israel. The people claiming the bloodline cannot accept this because they want to maintain their superior status by that which is physical, their bloodline. Read Malachi 1 and 2.

The people that claim the bloodline today have no more Jewish DNA in their blood than Khazars or other Europeans and no more than Iranians or other Middle Easterners.

There is no lineage of the Jew today, as there was in the time of Jesus here on earth!

Elia
November 22nd, 2015, 02:24 PM
Elia,

Obviously, you are right about the scripture you quoted, but what we have to is look at the whole picture. The Jews that God did not divorce were those of faith. His disciples and all the others that accepted him as their messiah were the Jews of faith.

Bs"d

No, those were the drop outs, who strayed after a new man-god, that no one ever new before:

“If there arises among you a prophet or a dreamer of dreams, and he gives you a sign or a wonder, and the sign or the wonder comes to pass, of which he spoke to you, saying, ‘Let us go after other gods’—which you have not known—‘and let us serve them,’ you shall not listen to the words of that prophet or that dreamer of dreams, for Y-H-W-H your God is testing you to know whether you love Y-H-W-H your God with all your heart and with all your soul. You shall walk after Y-H-W-H your God and fear Him, and keep His commandments and obey His voice; you shall serve Him and hold fast to Him. But that prophet or that dreamer of dreams shall be put to death, because he has spoken in order to turn you away from Y-H-W-H your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt and redeemed you from the house of bondage, to entice you from the way in which Y-H-W-H[COLOR="Purple"] your God commanded you to walk. So you shall put away the evil from your midst.

If anyone secretly entices you—even if it is your brother, your father’s son or your mother’s son, or your own son or daughter, or the wife you embrace, or your most intimate friend—saying, “Let us go worship other gods,” whom neither you nor your ancestors have known, 7*any of the gods of the peoples that are around you, whether near you or far away from you, from one end of the earth to the other, 8*you must not yield to or heed any such persons. Show them no pity or compassion and do not shield them. 9*But you shall surely kill them; your own hand shall be first against them to execute them, and afterwards the hand of all the people. 10*Stone them to death for trying to turn you away from Y-H-W-H your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery. 11*Then all Israel shall hear and be afraid, and never again do any such wickedness."
Deut 13



"For all people will walk every one in the name of his god, and we will walk in the name of Y-H-W-H our God for ever and ever.".
Micah 4:5

Totton Linnet
November 22nd, 2015, 06:02 PM
isn't it "and the sign and wonder does NOT come to pass?"

Ktoyou
November 22nd, 2015, 06:09 PM
In Christian Zionist theology.

..................

Christian Zionism cannot see that its own history is a part of the falling away, which has 19th century origins.



Huh? Oh, I see, you must be insane.:confused:
:idunno:

Totton Linnet
November 22nd, 2015, 06:18 PM
"And I will stretch over Jerusalem the line of Samaria, and the plummet of the house of Ahab: and I will wipe Jerusalem as a man wipeth a dish, wiping it, and turning it upside down." II Kings 21: 13

"Surely your turning of things upside down shall be esteemed as the potter's clay: for shall the work say of him that made it, He made me not? or shall the thing framed say of him that framed it, He had no understanding?" Isaiah 29: 16

"Then I went down to the potter's house, and, behold, he wrought a work on the wheels.
4. And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it.
5. Then the word of the LORD came to me, saying,
6. O house of Israel, cannot I do with you as this potter? saith the LORD. Behold, as the clay is in the potter's hand, so are ye in mine hand, O house of Israel." Jeremiah 18: 3-6

The Church did not replace Old Covenant Israel, nor does Old Covenant Israel now exist alongside the Church. The Church is a translation of ekklesia, a meeting, assembly or congregation. All doctrine is established on the basis of the meanings of the Hebrew and Greek words used in that doctrine.

To say that the Church replaced Old Covenant Israel is like saying the meeting of the local Democratic Party replaced the Republican Party. A meeting or assembly is not a proper noun. But Israel is a proper noun.

Israel did not end with the New Covenant. A remnant of Old Covenant Israel came out of that Old Covenant and began the New Covenant. God's people are always Israel. The people claiming the bloodline cannot accept this because they want to maintain their superior status by that which is physical, their bloodline. Read Malachi 1 and 2.

Paul says Israel is the root and we the shoot, he goes further and says that the shoot does not sustain the root but the root sustains the shoot.

But YOU say there is no longer any root.

Paul says we are made Co heirs and fellow citizens of the commonwealth of Israel...but YOU say there is no commonwealth of Israel.

The commonwealth of Israel must surely be the kingdom of God which will be made manifest at the Lord's coming.

They will look upon Him who they have pierced and mourn for Him as for a firstborn son.

They will be saved.

northwye
November 22nd, 2015, 07:19 PM
Some Rabbis of Talmudic Judaism say that the "He" in Isaiah 53 is Old Covenant Israel. I have not heard it stated that the root in Romans 11: 16 is Old Covenant Israel. Romans 11: 16 is another scripture that needs to be interpreted by other relevant scripture and not alone by a theology. Theology is able to insert its false doctrines into scripture like Romans 11: 16, which does not say who or what the root is.

Part of the reason for teaching the exact opposite of what the New Testament teaches - sometimes in a subtle and brief way - is that the False Prophets reject the role of the remnant. The remnant is seen in Romans 11: 1-5. And, no all Old Covenant Israel did not reject Jesus Christ. The multitude did and are cut off (Romans 11: 17-20). The remnant accepted Christ, came out of Old Covenant physical Israel and became the beginnings of the New Covenant.

“For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter” Romans 2:28-29.

The Israel which is chosen of God is the opposite of a Flesh and Blood Israel and is said to be a Spiritual body:

“Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ”.....But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people I Peter 2:9, 5

The opposite to the doctrine that Old Covenant Israel still exists as a people of God is the truth. When the Pharisees told Jesus they were still the chosen people, and they insisted that “Abraham is our father” (John 8:39), their belief was the exact opposite of the truth, as shown by what Jesus then said to them:

“Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do” (John 8:44).

Romans 9: 6-9 states a New Testament doctrine which is the exact opposite of the doctrine that Old Covenant Israel still exists somehow in spite of Hebrews 10: 9 and other texts.

"For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: 7. Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
8. That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed." Romans 9: 6-8

"Behold Israel after the flesh: are not they which eat of the sacrifices partakers of the alter?" I Corinthians 10: 18

Galatians 3 states a doctrine the opposite of the doctrine that God now decides who is to be saved based upon Flesh and Blood. The inheritance from Abraham became a spiritual one in the New Covenant.

The Israel of God in Galatians 6:16 is the body of Christ – the all Israel of Romans 11: 26 that is saved. But the spirit of anti-Christ in the False Prophets of Matthew 24: 11 and II Peter 2: 1-3 teach the exact opposite.

The False Prophets lead the organized multitude to accept as truth the exact opposite of the Truth. This does not mean that no one who claims to be of Flesh and Blood Israel, now as Talmudic Judaism, can be saved.

Totton Linnet
November 22nd, 2015, 07:28 PM
"You are of your father the devil" was applied to a section of the Jews, the leaders....the others were Jesu's sheep who heard His voice and who followed Him...it was out of envy at the throngs of people that the leaders were stirred up, there is no reason to suppose that Christ's opponents were a majority.

They were bullied and whipped up to demand His death but after Pentecost we see once more the masses being added daily to the church.

It was the seed of Isaac who rejected Christ to whom swore an everlasting covenant.

northwye
November 23rd, 2015, 03:56 AM
The False Prophets of Matthew 24: 11 and II Peter 2: 1-3 teach doctrines that are the direct opposites of what is taught in the New Testament. And look in a concordance for the word "deceive." In Matthew 24 the word "deceive is used in verses 4, 5, 11 and 24. And
each time deceive is used it refers to the deception of the False Prophets.

In setting up doctrines that are the direct opposite of those in the New Testament, the False Prophets might have used one of three main historical oppositions to the Gospel of Christ, the Jewish or Judaizer opposition found, for example,in Acts 15 and in Acts 21: 18-21, and dealt with in the letter to the Galatians. The False Prophets used the Judaizer opposition because it is clearer, more easily understood and has more credibility in the churches than the Gnostic or Greek philosophical opposition. Both Gnostic and Greek philosophical opposition to the Gospel are found in the Christianity associated with Alexandria in Egypt.

Here is another example of that direct opposition to the teaching of the New Testament:

"And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd." John 10: 16

"For as we have many members in one body, and all members have not the same office: So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another." Romans 12: 4-5

"There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;" Ephesians 4: 4

And - there is the Bible testimony on the Old Covenant being done away with and on the latter house having greater glory than the former house.

"He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second." Hebrews 10: 9

"But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises. For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second." Hebrews 8: 6-7

"The glory of this latter house shall be greater than of the former, saith the LORD of hosts: and in this place will I give peace, saith the LORD of hosts." Haggai 2: 9

Now look at statements from the founders of dispensationalism, or Christian Zionism, which teach doctrines that are the direct opposites of John 10: 16, Romans 12: 4-5, Ephesians 4: 4, Hebrews 10: 9, Hebrews 8: 6-7 and Haggai 2: 9:

John Darby said that the "Church has sought to settle itself here, but it has no place on the
earth... [Though] making a most constructive parenthesis, it forms no part of the regular order of God's earthly plans, but is merely an interruption of them to give a fuller character and meaning to them..."

John. N. Darby, 'The Character of Office in The Present Dispensation'
Collected Writings., Eccl. I, Vol. I, p. 94.

"Them" are all physical Israel, or Old Covenant Israel. The church, for Darby exists to "give fuller character and meaning to all physical Israel." Darby thought that the purpose of the Christian church, the ekklesia as a meeting, assembly or congregation of Israel reborn in Christ, claiming to be the
Body of Christ like the Catholic capital C Church, was to honor all physical Israel.

http://anothervoicerev184.blogspot.c...-of-jesus.html

"Return of Jesus Christ, The Rapture of the Church and the Second Coming of the Lord Jesus Christ, By Lewis Sperry Chafer 1871-1952."

Chafer says "The nation Israel, God's chosen earthly people, to whom at least five-sixths of the Bible is addressed and with whom the great covenants are made (Rom 9:4-5) -- which covenants secure to that nation a land, a nation, a throne, a King, and a kingdom -- are now scattered throughout all the nations of the earth (Deut 4:26-28; Deut 28:63-68; Jer 16:13), and are to remain scattered until they (a remnant; ed.) are gathered into their own land."

Lewis S. Chafer refers to physical Israel as God's earthy chosen people. And early dispensationalists talk about the church as being only a "parenthesis" within dispensations.

"Israel is an eternal nation, heir to an eternal land, with an eternal kingdom, on which David rules from an eternal throne so that in eternity, '...never the twain, Israel and church, shall meet." Lewis S. Chafer, Systematic Theology (Dallas, Dallas Seminary Press, 1975), Vol. 4. pp. 315-323..

Charles C. Ryrie (born 1925) says:
"basic promise of Dispensationalism is two purposes of God expressed
in the formation of two peoples who maintain their distinction
throughout eternity." Charles C. Ryrie, Dispensationalism Today,1966, pp.44-45.

Christian Zionism begins with the assumption or postulate that in Scripture Israel can only mean Old Covenant Israel, and cannot mean the Israel of God as Old Covenant Israel remade (Jeremiah 18: 1-6) a spiritual house (I Peter 2: 5). This assumption or postulate becomes important in the dialectic argument by Christian Zionists expressing their direct opposition to foundations of the Gospel.

The New Testament says the Old Covenant was done away with. It does not say that Israel was done away with. This is a subtle and complex doctrine.

Now look at this statement: Lewis S. Chafer said that dispensationalism has "...changed the Bible from being a mass of more or less conflicting
writings into a classified and easily assimilated revelation of both
the earthly and heavenly purposes of God, which reach on into eternity
to come.." Lewis. S. Chafer, ‘Dispensationalism,’ Bibliotheca Sacra, 93 (October 1936), 410, 416, 446-447

Chafer a founder of Christian Zionism, following John Darby and C.I. Scofield, claimed the Bible is a mass or more or less conflicting writings and that dispensationalism or Christian Zionism makes the Bible more easily classified and assimilated, or more easily understood.

It turns out that in the use of the dialectic, Christian Zionism misrepresents what the Bible says on the issues of Old Covenant Israel.

Christian Zionists cannot accept the doctrine that Old Covenant Israel was remade by Jesus Christ into a spiritual house, and that Israel after the flesh is no longer a people of God,
so any statement that says the Old Covenant was done away with means that Israel was also done away with to the Christian Zionist.

To the Christian Zionist the commonwealth of Israel in Ephesians 2: 11-20 must be Old Covenant Israel, and not the Israel of God as Old Covenant Israel remade.

The Christian Zionist follows different rules of "Hermeneutics" in interpreting scripture than Isaiah 28: 10 implies we should follow. "For precept must be upon precept...line upon line,here a little and there a little." We are to add scriptures together to create a fuller understanding and are to use other relevant scriptures to interpret any given text in the Bible. This is not what Christian Zionism does. For example, in Ephesians 2: 12, to the Christian Zionist, the commonwealth of Israel can only mean the multitude of Old Covenant Israel, and does not mean a remnant of Israel, or the Israel of God as Old Covenant Israel remade into a spiritual house.

But to those obeying Isaiah 28: 10 the Commonwealth of Israel in Ephesians 2: 12 is Israel of the New Covenant, which to Christian Zionists cannot exist because Israel in scripture is said always to be Old Covenant Israel.

To the Christian Zionist the root in Romans 11: 16 - not specifically identified there - must be Old Covenant Israel. But Romans 11: 16 says "if the root be holy so
are the branches." Old Covenant Israel is not holy. Jesus Christ is holy and he is the root in Romans 11: 16

The setting up of direct opposites to what the New Testament says about Israel and the Old Covenant is part of the process of making an argument against some of the foundations of the Gospel of Christ by use of the dialectic.

The dialectic is found in use in Genesis 3: 1-6 where Satan deceived Eve into accepting the exact opposite of what God had said to Adam and Eve, tat if they ate of the tree they would die. It is also found in John 8: 32-44 where the Pharisees made an argument which is the direct opposite of what Christ was teaching.

"O Timothy, keep that which is committed to thy trust, avoiding profane and vain babblings, and oppositions of science falsely so called:" I Timothy 6: 20

A better translation of γνωσεως, gnoseos, is knowledge.

The Textus Receptus says "ω τιμοθεε την παρακαταθηκην φυλαξον εκτρεπομενος τας βεβηλους κενοφωνιας και αντιθεσεις της ψευδωνυμου γνωσεως"

Oppositions is from αντιθεσεις, or antithesis. Anti-thesis? Thats part of the Hegelian dialectic. How did that Greek word get in I Timothy 6: 20?

antithesis is Strong's Exhaustive Concordance number 477, which is said to mean "opposition, i.e., a conflict of theories." In the Hegelian dialectic there is an opposition of two positions (theories, if you wish).

The "knowledge" which is seen by those who use these oppositions of knowledge, the anti-thesis of knowledge, have a "knowledge" that is falsely named.

This is exactly what the Hegelian dialectic in the hands of the Marxists does. The opposition of two positions, or two theories or two beliefs (attitudes, world views), produces a synthesis which is falsely seen as "knowledge," or is presented as knowledge, when it is not true knowledge, because it is a compromise with the absolute truth of the word of God.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dialectic

"Dialectic (also dialectics and the dialectical method), from Ancient Greek διαλεκτική, is a method of argument.....The word dialectic originated in ancient Greece, and was made popular by Plato in the Socratic dialogues."

"In classical philosophy, dialectic (Greek: διαλεκτική) is a form of reasoning based upon dialogue of arguments and counter-arguments, advocating propositions (theses) and counter-propositions (antitheses)."

"Aristotle said that it was the pre-Socratic philosopher Zeno of Elea who invented dialectic, of which the dialogues of Plato are the examples of the Socratic dialectical method."

The dialectic is a form of deception and the Marxist version of the Hegelian dialectic has been developed into a belief and attitude change procedure, which also infiltrated the churches in the 20th century.

In Marxism the dialectic is used to overthrow absolute Truth and absolute Morality, and in Christian Zionism it is used to change "the mass of more or less conflicting
writings into a classified and easily assimilated" set of doctrines. The dialectic is used to replace part of the foundation of the Gospel with a modern form of the Judaizer mind set of the First Century which Paul had to deal with.

Totton Linnet
November 23rd, 2015, 03:47 PM
You can't keep closing your eyes to Paul's teaching concerning Israel.

I say then have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles for to provoke them to jealousy.

Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world and the minishing of them the riches of the Gentiles how much more their fullness?

....if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world what shall be the receiving of them be but life from the dead?

For if the firstfruits be holy the lump also is holy and if the root be holy so are the branches.

And if some of the branches be broken off and thou being a wild olive tree wert grafted in among them and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree

Boast not against but if thou boast thou bearest not the root but the root thee.

....For I would have you know this mystery lest e be wise in your own conceits that blindness in part has happened to Israel UNTIL the fullness of the Gentiles be come in

And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written there shall come from Zion the Deliverer and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob for this is My covenant with them when I take away their sins.

As concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sakes but as touching the election they are BELOVED for the father's sake

For gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

northwye
November 23rd, 2015, 05:20 PM
Why not give the scripture identifications above and the translation?

Christian Zionism has its own peculiar way of interpreting scripture. To a great extent it interprets scripture by its own assumptions, the starting postulates that are implied in the work of John Darby, C.I. Scofield and Lewis S. Chafer. Since it starts from the postulate that Israel in scripture must always be Old Covenant Israel, then it is not surprising that it would interpret Romans 11: 26 to mean that all Old Covenant Israel shall be saved.

"If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.
15. For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?
16. For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.
17. And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
18. Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
19. Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.
20. Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:" Romans 11: 14-20 King James Version I could just as well have used the 1526 William Tyndale New Testament or the 1599 Geneva Bible, all three English Bibles being from the Reformation period.

Abraham was the root of Old Covenant Israel of the flesh as seen in Romans 9: 8 and in I Corinthians 10: 18. Ishmael was broken off, and the Old Covenant's root became Isaac; and when Esau was broken off, the root became Jacob and his sons. In a like manner when the multitude of Old Covenant Israel rejected Christ the remnant of Romans 11: 5 became the root, but really Jesus Christ must be the root.

"For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
28. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
29. And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise." Galatians 3: 27-29

There is no more Old Covenant Israel by the flesh as a people of God in Galatians 3: 27-29

"And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed" carries the implication that the seed is no longer physical DNA but it is now a spiritual seed. If not, no one is born again in Christ by the Holy Spirit.

In Romans 11: 17-20 Paul says clearly that those of Old Covenant Israel who were in unbelief were broken off. Since he says in Romans 11: 5 that a remnant of Old Covenant Israel became the elect by grace, those of Old Covenant Israel who were broken off because of unbelief must be the larger group, the multitude.

Then, "As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes." Romans 11: 28

"They" are Israel. But you have to look closely at what he says. That Israel which are enemies as concerning the Gospel cannot be the Israel of God (Galatians 6: 16). The Israel of God accepts the Gospel of Christ. Those of Old Covenant Israel which rejected Christ are the ones who are enemies for your sakes because of the Gospel. He is addressing those of Israel who accept Christ. But the Israel which is beloved for the father's sakes are the Israel of God, the ones who accepted Christ. And the father's sakes refers to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob not God the Father. Again, Christian Zionism cannot understand this or accept it because it begins from the postulate that Israel in scrpiture must always be Old Covenant Israel and no other.

In Romans 11: 28 Paul is doing something similar to what he does in Romans 11: 25-26, talking about Israel of the flesh in verse 25 and the Israel which is made up of all the elect in verse 26. And Christian Zionists cannot understand or accept this because of the doctrines of John Darby, C.I. Scofield and Leweis S. Chafer and many others.

Lazy afternoon
November 23rd, 2015, 07:52 PM
....For I would have you know this mystery lest e be wise in your own conceits that blindness in part has happened to Israel UNTIL the fullness of the Gentiles be come in

Be come into Gods Israel, the elect.




As concerning the gospel they (the unbelievers)are enemies for your sakes but as touching the election they (the elect)are BELOVED for the father's sake

Israel of the middle east is not Gods Israel.

Elia
November 23rd, 2015, 10:46 PM
isn't it "and the sign and wonder does NOT come to pass?"

Bs"d

Check it out in your own Bible.



"For all people will walk every one in the name of his god, and we will walk in the name of Y-H-W-H our God for ever and ever.".
Micah 4:5

Elia
November 23rd, 2015, 10:52 PM
The False Prophets of Matthew 24: 11 and II Peter 2: 1-3 teach doctrines that are the direct opposites of what is taught in the New Testament.

Bs"d

Look here in chapter 4 and see who is the real false prophet:

http://MountZion.notlong.com


"For all people will walk every one in the name of his god, and we will walk in the name of Y-H-W-H our God for ever and ever.".
Micah 4:5

Totton Linnet
November 25th, 2015, 10:15 AM
Why not give the scripture identifications above and the translation?

Christian Zionism has its own peculiar way of interpreting scripture. To a great extent it interprets scripture by its own assumptions, the starting postulates that are implied in the work of John Darby, C.I. Scofield and Lewis S. Chafer. Since it starts from the postulate that Israel in scripture must always be Old Covenant Israel, then it is not surprising that it would interpret Romans 11: 26 to mean that all Old Covenant Israel shall be saved.

"If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.
15. For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?
16. For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.
17. And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
18. Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
19. Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.
20. Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:" Romans 11: 14-20 King James Version I could just as well have used the 1526 William Tyndale New Testament or the 1599 Geneva Bible, all three English Bibles being from the Reformation period.

Abraham was the root of Old Covenant Israel of the flesh as seen in Romans 9: 8 and in I Corinthians 10: 18. Ishmael was broken off, and the Old Covenant's root became Isaac; and when Esau was broken off, the root became Jacob and his sons. In a like manner when the multitude of Old Covenant Israel rejected Christ the remnant of Romans 11: 5 became the root, but really Jesus Christ must be the root.

"For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
28. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
29. And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise." Galatians 3: 27-29

There is no more Old Covenant Israel by the flesh as a people of God in Galatians 3: 27-29

"And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed" carries the implication that the seed is no longer physical DNA but it is now a spiritual seed. If not, no one is born again in Christ by the Holy Spirit.

In Romans 11: 17-20 Paul says clearly that those of Old Covenant Israel who were in unbelief were broken off. Since he says in Romans 11: 5 that a remnant of Old Covenant Israel became the elect by grace, those of Old Covenant Israel who were broken off because of unbelief must be the larger group, the multitude.

Then, "As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes." Romans 11: 28

"They" are Israel. But you have to look closely at what he says. That Israel which are enemies as concerning the Gospel cannot be the Israel of God (Galatians 6: 16). The Israel of God accepts the Gospel of Christ. Those of Old Covenant Israel which rejected Christ are the ones who are enemies for your sakes because of the Gospel. He is addressing those of Israel who accept Christ. But the Israel which is beloved for the father's sakes are the Israel of God, the ones who accepted Christ. And the father's sakes refers to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob not God the Father. Again, Christian Zionism cannot understand this or accept it because it begins from the postulate that Israel in scrpiture must always be Old Covenant Israel and no other.

In Romans 11: 28 Paul is doing something similar to what he does in Romans 11: 25-26, talking about Israel of the flesh in verse 25 and the Israel which is made up of all the elect in verse 26. And Christian Zionists cannot understand or accept this because of the doctrines of John Darby, C.I. Scofield and Leweis S. Chafer and many others.

So you are saying that the Israel who are enemies...that is natural Israel but the Israel which is beloved is the church?

Phooey

They are beloved because of the fathers, because of the election.

Nor can you say that the Jews who believed are beloved but the Jews who do not believe are enemies for those who are enemies are the those who are beloved.

Just as those who are grafted out will be grafted back, those who were cast away will be received.

You err because you refuse to acknowledge that Israel is indeed laid aside [all dispys believe that] but it is only for a time "until the fullness of the Gentiles be brought in"

The famous parenthesis

Ben Masada
November 25th, 2015, 12:57 PM
To Northwye: The reason why to you it seems to be a long time since the Old Covenant between HaShem and Israel as the chosen People was established, it is because that covenant is eternal as long as Israel remains as a People before the Lord forever. (Jer. 31:35-37)

Ben Masada
November 25th, 2015, 01:06 PM
"You are of your father the devil" was applied to a section of the Jews, the leaders....the others were Jesu's sheep who heard His voice and who followed Him...it was out of envy at the throngs of people that the leaders were stirred up, there is no reason to suppose that Christ's opponents were a majority.

They were bullied and whipped up to demand His death but after Pentecost we see once more the masses being added daily to the church.

It was the seed of Isaac who rejected Christ to whom swore an everlasting covenant.

You didn't quote the text but I found out that's from John 8. If that's true, did you know that Jesus was speaking to the Jews who had believed in him? (John 8:31) How could he tell the Jews who had believed in him that they were children of the Devil? It makes no sense to me. Perhaps you didn't quote because you found it absurd yourself. Do you have any idea about this paradox?

northwye
November 25th, 2015, 01:34 PM
"So you are saying that the Israel who are enemies...that is natural Israel but the Israel which is beloved is the church?"

No, that is a misrepresentation of Paul's teaching in Romans 9: 6-8, I Corinthians 10: 18, Galatians 6: 16 and implications from Galatians 3: 3, 16, 27-29. There is no ekklesia in these texts, nor is there mention of the ekklesia in Romans 11. In fact the only chapter that Paul uses ekklesia in Romans is chapter 16.

A doctrine is always established by the meaning of the Hebrew and Greek words used to establish that doctrine. And there is a doctrine, though implied, of the church from ekklesia.

Again, the problem is that Christian Zionism postulates from its own ideas rather than following scripture. Since Darby, Scofield and the other founders say that God now has two peoples Old Covenant Israel and the Capital C Church, then there can be no Israel of God, no Israel reborn in Christ for the followers of Christian Zionism. So for Christian Zionists the Israel which is beloved for the sakes of the fathers must be the Church, since for them Israel can only be Old Covenant Israel and not an Israel remade in Jesus Christ by the Holy Spirit and in the Father.

The followers of Darby et al have another Gospel and Paul says of another Gospel in Galatians 1: 9 "...if any man peach any other Gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed."

First, it has to be acknowledged that Paul's teaching in Romans 9: 6-8, Corinthians 10: 18, Galatians 6: 16 and implications from Galatians 3: 3, 16, 27-29 contradicts the way Christian Zionism has interpreted Romans 11: 25-26. Romans 11: 25-26 is not metaphoric, but it is nevertheless subtle and requires discernment from the Holy Spirit to get it if you have never been taught what Paul is saying there and understand it.

Christian Zionists have been taught a literal way of interpreting scripture and this more literal way of viewing the word of God makes it very hard for them to accept statements which are subtle and depend upon a teaching that Paul makes elsewhere for full understanding - and the leading of the Holy Spirit.

The Reformers, or many of them, understood the subtle shift from Old Covenant Israel of the flesh in Romans 11: 25 to Israel in Christ as the elect of God in Romans 11: 26. They say that Luther first believed Romans 11: 26 applied to Old Covenant Israel and then changed his mind. Calvin is clear that Romans 11: 26 applies to all the elect and apparently understood what Paul was teaching in places other than Romans 11 about a physical Israel and an Israel of God.

A part of this understanding of Romans 11: 25-26 is carried on by some of the more conservative Calvinists, who will say the church is Israel. Though this is not entirely right, it is also not in agreement with Christian Zionism.

Richard L. Pratt Jr. of the Reformed Theological Seminary says "In
Calvin's view, "all Israel" refers neither to believing Jews alone, nor to believers within the New Testament church alone. Instead, "all Israel" denotes the combined number of believing Jews and Gentiles from both the Old and New Testaments periods....In line with Calvin's view, it is common for Reformed theologians to speak of Israel as the church and the church as Israel."

Though the conservative Calvinists hang on to the Catholic idea of the ruling Capital C Church, some within the conservative Reformed groups have a better understanding of Romans 11: 25-26 than does the vast majority now in the churches who are under the influence of Christian Zionism. The conservative Calvinists also still follow Theodore Beza in returning to the Church which rules over the members by an elite, the clergy.

"And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; 16. As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction." II Peter 3: 15-16

If the principle taught in Zechariah 13: 8-9 - two parts will be cut off and die, but a third part is brought through the fire, and become the people of God - is applied to Christian Zionists, most of those in Christian Zionism will not come out of it, but a part will.

Ben Masada
November 25th, 2015, 01:43 PM
"So you are saying that the Israel who are enemies...that is natural Israel but the Israel which is beloved is the church?"

No, that is a misrepresentation of Paul's teaching in Romans 9: 6-8, I Corinthians 10: 18, Galatians 6: 16 and implications from Galatians 3: 3, 16, 27-29. There is no ekklesia in these texts, nor is there mention of the ekklesia in Romans 11. In fact the only chapter that Paul uses ekklesia in Romans is chapter 16.

A doctrine is always established by the meaning of the Hebrew and Greek words used to establish that doctrine. And there is a doctrine, though implied, of the church from ekklesia.

Again, the problem is that Christian Zionism postulates from its own ideas rather than following scripture. Since Darby, Scofield and the other founders say that God now has two peoples Old Covenant Israel and the Capital C Church, then there can be no Israel of God, no Israel reborn in Christ for the followers of Christian Zionism. So for Christian Zionists the Israel which is beloved for the sakes of the fathers must be the Church, since for them Israel can only be Old Covenant Israel and not an Israel remade in Jesus Christ by the Holy Spirit and in the Father.

The followers of Darby et al have another Gospel and Paul says of another Gospel in Galatians 1: 9 "...if any man peach any other Gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed."

First, it has to be acknowledged that Paul's teaching in Romans 9: 6-8, Corinthians 10: 18, Galatians 6: 16 and implications from Galatians 3: 3, 16, 27-29 contradicts the way Christian Zionism has interpreted Romans 11: 25-26. Romans 11: 25-26 is not metaphoric, but it is nevertheless subtle and requires discernment from the Holy Spirit to get it if you have never been taught what Paul is saying there and understand it.

Christian Zionists have been taught a literal type of way of interpreting scripture and this more literal way of viewing the word of God makes it very hard for them to accept statements which are subtle and depend upon a teaching that Paul makes elsewhere for full understanding - and the leading of the Holy Spirit.

The Reformers, or many of them, understood the subtle shift from Old Covenant Israel of the flesh in Romans 11: 25 to Israel in Christ as the elect of God in Romans 11: 26. They say that Luther first believed Romans 11: 26 applied to Old Covenant Israel and then changed his mind. Calvin is clear that Romans 11: 26 applies to all the elect and apparently understood what Paul was teaching in places other than Romans 11 about a physical Israel and an Israel of God.

A part of this understanding of Romans 11: 25-26 is carried on by some of the more conservative Calvinists, who will say the church is Israel. Though this is not entirely right, it is also not in agreement with Christian Zionism.

Richard L. Pratt Jr. of the Reformed Theological Seminary says "In
Calvin's view, "all Israel" refers neither to believing Jews alone, nor to believers within the New Testament church alone. Instead, "all Israel" denotes the combined number of believing Jews and Gentiles from both the Old and New Testaments periods....In line with Calvin's view, it is common for Reformed theologians to speak of Israel as the church and the church as Israel."

Though the conservative Calvinists hang on to the Catholic idea of the ruling Capital C Church, some within the conservative Reformed groups have a better understanding of Romans 11: 25-26 than does not vast majority now in the churches who are under the influence of Christian Zionism. The conservative Calvinists also still follow Theodore Beza in returning to the Church which rules over the members by an elite, the clergy.

"And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; 16. As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction." II Peter 3: 15-16

If the principle taught in Zechariah 13: 8-9 - two parts will be cut off and die, but a third part is brought through the fire, and become the people of God - is applied to Christian Zionists, most of those in Christian Zionism will not come out of it, but a part will.

You are not serious Worthwye. I have said nothing of what you claim in this post of yours above. Besides, I am not a Christian Zionist.

Totton Linnet
November 25th, 2015, 02:14 PM
You didn't quote the text but I found out that's from John 8. If that's true, did you know that Jesus was speaking to the Jews who had believed in him? (John 8:31) How could he tell the Jews who had believed in him that they were children of the Devil? It makes no sense to me. Perhaps you didn't quote because you found it absurd yourself. Do you have any idea about this paradox?

Those who opposed Him as opposed to "My sheep hear My voice"

Totton Linnet
November 25th, 2015, 02:18 PM
@ Northwye 54

You are misrepresenting dispys they do not say there are at the present time 2 peoples of God.

The Jews are laid aside until the fullness of the Gentiles be come in.

Ben Masada
November 25th, 2015, 02:19 PM
Those who opposed Him as opposed to "My sheep hear My voice"

Sorry Linnet, but this is a non-sequitur. That's no answer to my question and not even related to.

Totton Linnet
November 25th, 2015, 02:33 PM
...ok

beloved57
November 25th, 2015, 03:17 PM
@ Northwye 54

You are misrepresenting dispys they do not say there are at the present time 2 peoples of God.

The Jews are laid aside until the fullness of the Gentiles be come in.

When the fulness of the Gentiles is complete then all Israel will be saved ! No more Salvation then ! The Mystery of God will be completed !

Elia
November 26th, 2015, 01:06 AM
"Chosen people" was their choice of words just like "gentile dog" was. The Jews wrote, rewrote, redacted and edited the OT books in Babylon. They made NO claim to be writing by inspiration. They were writing for the child like mind of bronze age sheep herders. It wasn't until the return to Jerusalem that later members of the elite priest class traditionalized the revised books, they became scripture.

Bs"d

Excerpt from Sing You Righteous by Rabbi Avigdor Miller




Student: It is difficult to believe in traditions which began so long ago. For Jews who lived 2000 years ago it was much easier to be believers.


Rabbi: Then let us step back 2000 years.


Student: How?


Rabbi: Do you find it difficult to believe that 2000 years ago there lived a writer named Josephus who saw the second Sanctuary and that in the generation before him there lived a writer Philo of Alexandria?


Student: There can not be the slightest doubt about those two. There books written in Greek have been exclusively been in non-Jewish hands for 2000 years, as the ancient Gentile chroniclers declare.


Rabbi: Then 2000 years of believe are lifted of your shoulders.


Student: How?


Rabbi: Since there is not the slightest doubt that Philo and Josephus wrote their works 2000 years ago, and since it is unanimous knowledge that they recorded all the facts of the Torah-history and named the books of the Scriptures, then this is equivalent to being alive 2000 years ago.

Thus 2000 years are clipped off, and your burden of believing is 2000 years lighter.


Student: You mean to say: I stand now with Philo and Josephus, I view the past from their vantage point. This certainly takes a heavy load off one's shoulders. But the question remains: how did Philo and Josephus know that the events of which they wrote, which transpired long before their time, were true?


Rabbi: When these two wrote about the exile of their nation to Babylon, some 500 years before their time, and of the return of part of the nation to the land of Israel where they erected the Second Sanctuary, did they have any cause to doubt the truth of these facts?


Student: In view of the fact that they were prominent public men, and wrote of these matters which the entire nation had experienced as recently as five centuries ago and which were universally known, it is certain they could not have invented such facts in which the entire nation could have contradicted them. The Jews in the land of Israel all spoke the Aramaic tongue which they had learned during the Babylonian exile, and they unanimously stated that they had returned from Babylon.


Rabbi: Josephus describes very large Jewish communities in Babylon in his days, and he states as a matter of fact that they came from the land of Israel at the destruction of the First Sanctuary (Tempel). Could he have made such public statements if the large Jewish communities in Babylon would contradict them?


Student: I can see the unquestionable certainty of the fact that the Babylonians conquered Judea and exiled the Jews to Babylon. But how does that prove the truth of the Torah?


Rabbi: Which of the Jewish communities was older, the Jewish community of Babylon, or the community of Jews in the land of Israel?


Student: Since it is certain that the nation had been exiled to Babylon, and from there part of the Jews returned to Israel, then it follows that the Babylonian Jewish community was older than its daughter-colony which departed to return to the land of Israel.


Rabbi: Did the Babylonian Jews possess the Scriptures? The Scriptures relate that Ezra in Babylon became a great teacher of the Torah (Ezra 7:10) “The book of the law of God” (ibid 7:12, 21), and that he came to the land of Israel to teach the Torah. The book of the Torah is frequently mentioned not only in Ezra's time when in Babylon, but throughout the Scriptures (Josh 8:31, 34, 23:6, 24:26, II Kings 14:6).

It is also mentioned as being in the hands of those who returned from Babylon but throughout the Scriptures (Joshua 8:31, 34, 23:6, 24:26, II Kings 14:6). It is also mentioned as being in the hands of those who returned from Babylon to settle in the land of Israel. (Ezra 6:18, Nechemiah 8:1, 3, 8, 18; 9:3, 13:1).


Student: How can I know that this is so?


Rabbi: Remember that you are standing with Philo and Josephus in time.


Student: True. But how could they know that this was true?


Rabbi: How do you know that Colombus discovered America?


Student: That is 1) recent history, and 2) is documented, and 3) is accepted by all.


Rabbi: The return from Bavel together with the Torah was even more recent history to Philo and Josephus. It is also documented by the statements in the Scriptures which I quoted, besides the fact that the entire Scriptures document themselves and date the time of their creation. The Scriptures are also documented by the writings of Ben Sira (who lived in the early days of the Second Sanctuary) who enumerated all the books of the Scriptures and dated them. The Septuagint also documents the Scriptures, and the Scriptures are also documented by the two books of the Maccabees. In all these sources, as well as the writings of Philo and of Josephus, it is clear that all these facts about the Scriptures were accepted by all, and that there was not the least doubt that the Scriptures came from Babylon. This is in addition to the most obvious fact of all: that the unanimous tradition of the Jewish nation, as mirrored by the entire Talmud, testifies to the authenticity of the Scriptures. But Philo, Josephus, the books of the Maccabees, the Septuagint and Ben Sira speak to us through the Gentiles, who have guarded these books for 2000 years and more. In addition, the fact that the Samaritans possess the Five Books of Moses and the book of Joshua is an important testimony.


Student: Why? Is it not possible that they received these books from the Jews at some time during the Second Sanctuary?


Rabbi: They were bitter enemies of the Jews from the very beginning of the Second Sanctuary, when the Jews rejected their offer to aid in erecting the Sanctuary. Josephus records their unfailing hostility thenceforth. The Talmudic sources state this fact clearly, but even Josephus and the other non-Torah sources testify to the bitter hostility of the Samaritans from the early days of the Second Sanctuary forward.


Student: Then the only possible time that the Samaritans could have received their Scriptures from the Jews was before the beginning of the Second Sanctuary.


Rabbi: Yes. We are now no longer standing side by side with Philo and Josephus, but we are now 400 years before them, and we stand together with the Samaritans who are already in possession of the Books of Moses and a garbled book of Joshua.


Student: Why did the Samaritans fail to receive the later books of the Scriptures?


Rabbi: This very significant fact demonstrates the time when the Samaritans received their Scriptures. The Samaritans were brought from Cutha by the conqueror Shalmanesser to settle in the land of the Ten Tribes. The Ten Tribes had broken away from Judah immediately after Solomons reign, when the books written by the prophet Samuel (Judges, Samuel and Ruth) were yet new, and when the sole long established books were the Five Books of Moses and the book of Joshua. After breaking off, the Ten Tribes would not accept any new books of the Scriptures from Judah. They broke away from the house of David, and it is therefore understandable that they had no interest in the Psalms of David, Solomon's Proverbs and his other books, or in the books written by David's patron prophets Samuel. Gad, and Nathan (the books of Judges and Samuel).

The latter books of the Scriptures were composed in Judah after the break off and were certainly not accepted by the Ten Tribes. After the Ten Tribes were exiled by Shalmanesser, a number of them still remained in the land (II Kings 23:20, II Chronicles 34:9) and these taught the new settlers from faith the religion of Israel (II Kings 17) and gave them the Five Books of Moses and the book of Joshua.


Student: Therefore we stand now side by side with the Ten Tribes, from whom the Samaritans received the Five Books of Moses and the book of Joshua. It is certain that the Samaritans didn't invent these books.


Rabbi: That would be laughable, for the Jews would not accept the Torah from the Samaritans, despised aliens and bitter enemies. From the fact that the Samaritans settled in the land of the Ten Tribes and were taught the Torah by the priests of the Ten Tribes (ibid.), and from the fact that the Samaritans possess non of the later books after Joshua, it is clearly evident that they received their Scriptures from the Ten Tribes. Thus it is plain that the Ten Tribes were in possession of the Five Books of Moses and the book of Joshua. This is in addition to the open internal testimony of the Scriptures that the Ten Tribes possessed the Torah and obeyed it: they observed the Sabbath and Rosh Chodesh, (II Kings 4:23; Amos 8:5); they required two witnesses to accuse a man, and they imposed the death penalty of S'kilah for the sin of blasphemy, and they executed the sinner outside of the city (1 Kings 21:13), all in accordence with the laws of the Five Books of Moses. They excluded lepars from the city (II Kings 7:3) according to the Scriptural law, unlike the neighbouring people who did not expel lepers (II Kings 5:1-5). The Torah is mentioned by the prophets in the Ten Tribes as something commonly known (Hoshea 4:6, 8:1, 8:12, Amos 2:4).


Student: Could anybody claim that the Ten Tribes composed the Five Books of the Torah?


Rabbi: That would be ridiculous. The pious people of the land of Judah, who clung to Jerusalem and the Sanctuary, would accept no Torah from the wayward Ten Tribes who possessed the golden calves and worshipped at forbidden altars and who had priests who were not of the seed of Aaron. Besides, the Ten Tribes had a history of steady deterioration from the beginning, and nothing like a Torah could have been produced from the break off onward.


Student: Could someone claim that the Torah was invented by a Judean after the secession of the Ten Tribes?


Rabbi: That would have been impossible. After the breakaway from Judea, the Ten Tribes would accept no Torah from the Judeans. When Jerobeam led away the Ten Tribes in their secession from Judeah, he took along the Five Books of Moses and the book of Joshua because they had already for a long time been in the possession of the entire nation.


Student: Thus we have now gone backward in time so far that we are standing with Jerobeam before he tore away the Ten Tribes, and we see the Five Books of the Torah and the book of Joshua in his hands. Could it be claimed by anyone that the Torah was recent at that time?


Rabbi: That is out of the question. Had the Torah been recent at that time, Jerobeam and the Ten Tribes would not have taken it when they seceded, just as they did not take Samuel's books. That they took the Torah with them when they broke away was due solely to the fact that they had possessed it so long that it was now impossible to forsake it, although the Ten Tribes forsook the city of David and the house of David and the Sanctuary. Jerobeam's party would certainly have rejected any books written in the days of David and Solomon. Note that Solomon erected the Sanctuary 480 years after the Exodus and the Giving of the Torah at Sinai, and David's reign began over 40 years earlier. Could anyone in the time of David or Samuel have foisted the books of the Torah on the people of Israel?


Student: It would have been impossible at that time to make claims about events which transpired four centuries before unless these claims were common knowledge of the nation.


Rabbi: The Proverbs of Solomon and the Psalms of David speak frequently of the Torah and mention it as an old and nationally accepted fact. Note also that the Torah (Dvarim 2:9, 19) prohibits waging war on Moab and on Ammon. When Saul and David fought against these two nations, would such a prohibition thenceforth be written? When Ammon invaded the land of Israel in the days of Yiftach, and earlier when Moab oppressed Israel in the days of Ehud, could any prohibitions be composed forbidding any wars with these nations?


Student: Then we are already back to the days of Ehud and Eglon, the king of Moab.


Rabbi: But Ehud was the judge after Othniel ben Kenaz (Judges 3) who was a younger contemporary of Joshua ben Nun.


Student: Which puts the origin of the Five Books of Moses and the book of Joshua in the period in which they actually belong. I see, sir, that you travelled by a back road. The works of Philo and Josephus, written in Greek and cherished by the Gentiles, and the Samaritans who were the bitter enemies of Israel, and the Ten Tribes which broke away with Jerobeam, and even Eglon king of Moab, all of these you have summoned to testify. You have almost entirely omitted the Jewish tradition.


Rabbi: The most reliable of all testimonies is the accurate, honest, and unbroken tradition of Israel. 1) The Scriptures testify by their own words. 2) They also testify for each other, because every book is expressedly stated as a sequel to the foregoing books, and they corroberate the events and statements which are inscribed in other books. At innumarable points the facts and even the calculations of the books of the Scriptures can be cross-checked for accuracy. 3) Above all however, is the testimony given by our Oral Tradition, upheld by our entire nation, and recorded throughout the voluminous literature of the Talmud and kindred works. The external testimonies cited by me hitherto are true throughout, and are impossible to controvert. But no testimony can compare in vigor to that of our tradition. However, let us not desist from this form of research; for it can be useful for the erring and ignorant who respect the non-Jewish testimonies.



"For all people will walk every one in the name of his god, and we will walk in the name of Y-H-W-H our God for ever and ever.".
Micah 4:5