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Drake Shelton
November 2nd, 2015, 04:40 AM
The sabbath, the harvest feasts and the feast of trumpets are shadows of the final state, the Resurrection, the judgment and the 2nd coming. If you say all these sabbaths are fulfilled and therefore done away with, you have to believe in Full Preterism, that the final state, the Resurrection, the judgment and the 2nd coming have already happened.

https://southernisraelite.wordpress.com/

iouae
November 2nd, 2015, 06:04 AM
Jesus kept them, and commanded His saints to wait in Jerusalem for Pentecost. So the church was keeping feasts after Christ's death.

A good rule is that if Christ keeps some thing, and tells about Him keeping something in the NT, it might be a hint for us to be followers of Him in that.

JonahofAkron
November 2nd, 2015, 09:07 AM
Jesus kept them, and commanded His saints to wait in Jerusalem for Pentecost. So the church was keeping feasts after Christ's death.

A good rule is that if Christ keeps some thing, and tells about Him keeping something in the NT, it might be a hint for us to be followers of Him in that.Excellent point.

bybee
November 2nd, 2015, 09:12 AM
The sabbath, the harvest feasts and the feast of trumpets are shadows of the final state, the Resurrection, the judgment and the 2nd coming. If you say all these sabbaths are fulfilled and therefore done away with, you have to believe in Full Preterism, that the final state, the Resurrection, the judgment and the 2nd coming have already happened.

https://southernisraelite.wordpress.com/

I could be wrong and am open to proof but, it doesn't seem to me that this is the case. We appear to be in a state of expectancy for the "eschaton"?

HisServant
November 2nd, 2015, 10:36 AM
The sabbath, the harvest feasts and the feast of trumpets are shadows of the final state, the Resurrection, the judgment and the 2nd coming. If you say all these sabbaths are fulfilled and therefore done away with, you have to believe in Full Preterism, that the final state, the Resurrection, the judgment and the 2nd coming have already happened.

https://southernisraelite.wordpress.com/

Jews.. even messanic ones are scared to death of Preterism... because it nullifies their entire religion and their false hope of clinging onto Jews being the 'chosen ones'.

Abraham was given the promise... the Jews were given a task, at which they failed miserably at each and every step... and the purpose of that task is no longer relevant (to point to the coming messiah).

It's over for the Jews... finished... done... you can stick a fork in them.

patrick jane
November 2nd, 2015, 10:40 AM
Jews.. even messanic ones are scared to death of Preterism... because it nullifies their entire religion and their false hope of clinging onto Jews being the 'chosen ones'.

Abraham was given the promise... the Jews were given a task, at which they failed miserably at each and every step... and the purpose of that task is no longer relevant (to point to the coming messiah).

It's over for the Jews... finished... done... you can stick a fork in them.

They didn't get the memo

bybee
November 2nd, 2015, 10:50 AM
Jews.. even messanic ones are scared to death of Preterism... because it nullifies their entire religion and their false hope of clinging onto Jews being the 'chosen ones'.

Abraham was given the promise... the Jews were given a task, at which they failed miserably at each and every step... and the purpose of that task is no longer relevant (to point to the coming messiah).

It's over for the Jews... finished... done... you can stick a fork in them.

The Nazi's fried up about 6,000,000 0f them ... men, women children, babies, slaughtered, gassed, shot, burned, used for hideous medical experiments.

HisServant
November 2nd, 2015, 10:57 AM
The Nazi's fried up about 6,000,000 0f them ... men, women children, babies, slaughtered, gassed, shot, burned, used for hideous medical experiments.

So... there have also been other ethnic groups subjected to the same ordeal.. like the Armenians in Turkey.. Stalin killed more ethnic groups in Russia than Hitler killed Jews, etc.

steko
November 2nd, 2015, 10:59 AM
Yet, to occur:


Zec 14:1 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh
Zec 14:2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle....
Zec 14:3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations.....
Zec 14:4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley
Zec 14:9 And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.
Zec 14:16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.

HisServant
November 2nd, 2015, 11:08 AM
Yet, to occur:


Zec 14:1 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh
Zec 14:2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle....
Zec 14:3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations.....
Zec 14:4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley
Zec 14:9 And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.
Zec 14:16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.

That is the old testament... if you believe it is future, then you have to come to the conclusion that Jesus was a failure.

SaulToPaul
November 2nd, 2015, 11:18 AM
Yet, to occur:


Zec 14:1 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh
Zec 14:2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle....
Zec 14:3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations.....
Zec 14:4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley
Zec 14:9 And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.
Zec 14:16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.

It hasn't, but it will.

:up:

steko
November 2nd, 2015, 11:28 AM
That is the old testament... if you believe it is future, then you have to come to the conclusion that Jesus was a failure.

Yes, it's OT prophecy and if you believe it won't happen, then you have come to the conclusion that Jesus will fail.

musterion
November 2nd, 2015, 11:29 AM
Yet, to occur:


Zec 14:1 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh
Zec 14:2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle....
Zec 14:3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations.....
Zec 14:4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley
Zec 14:9 And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.
Zec 14:16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.

Tet says that can't be taken literally.

Darby dood it.

steko
November 2nd, 2015, 11:31 AM
Tet says that can't be taken literally.

Darby dood it.

Yeah, just shoves it in the metaphorical drawer and forgets it.

genuineoriginal
November 2nd, 2015, 11:32 AM
That is the old testament... if you believe it is future, then you have to come to the conclusion that Jesus was a failure.

We can be like you and think Jesus is a failure, or we can come to the conclusion that it is your understanding of scripture that is a failure.

bybee
November 2nd, 2015, 11:32 AM
So... there have also been other ethnic groups subjected to the same ordeal.. like the Armenians in Turkey.. Stalin killed more ethnic groups in Russia than Hitler killed Jews, etc.

And all hideous beyond words.

musterion
November 2nd, 2015, 11:32 AM
Yeah, just shoves it in the metaphorical drawer and forgets it.

Neo-Augustinians will do that.

steko
November 2nd, 2015, 11:35 AM
I challenge anyone to show me a legitimate photograph of the Mt of Olives split in half with a valley running through the middle of it from east to west.

HisServant
November 2nd, 2015, 11:36 AM
I challenge anyone to show me a legitimate photograph of the Mt of Olives split in half with a valley running through the middle of it from east to west.

I challenge you to research what that verse would have meant to a first century Jew.

steko
November 2nd, 2015, 11:40 AM
I challenge you to research what that verse would have meant to a first century Jew.

Literal, like this?

Zec 9:9 Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem: behold, thy King cometh unto thee: he is just, and having salvation; lowly, and riding upon an ***, and upon a colt the foal of an ***.
Zec 9:10 And I will cut off the chariot from Ephraim, and the horse from Jerusalem, and the battle bow shall be cut off: and he shall speak peace unto the heathen: and his dominion shall be from sea even to sea, and from the river even to the ends of the earth.

HisServant
November 2nd, 2015, 11:53 AM
Literal, like this?

Zec 9:9 Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem: behold, thy King cometh unto thee: he is just, and having salvation; lowly, and riding upon an ***, and upon a colt the foal of an ***.
Zec 9:10 And I will cut off the chariot from Ephraim, and the horse from Jerusalem, and the battle bow shall be cut off: and he shall speak peace unto the heathen: and his dominion shall be from sea even to sea, and from the river even to the ends of the earth.


Those passages were never meant to be taken literal... they would laugh at you.

They are allegorical... always have been... always will be.

Ktoyou
November 2nd, 2015, 11:57 AM
So... there have also been other ethnic groups subjected to the same ordeal.. like the Armenians in Turkey.. Stalin killed more ethnic groups in Russia than Hitler killed Jews, etc.

:blabla::blabla::blabla: This is so boring

dialm
November 2nd, 2015, 06:59 PM
The Nazi's fried up about 6,000,000 0f them ... men, women children, babies, slaughtered, gassed, shot, burned, used for hideous medical experiments.

Your response is uncalled for. I am giving you a red flag one week off.

dialm
November 2nd, 2015, 07:00 PM
Sherman should get one also but I don't know how to spell his name.

Angel4Truth
November 2nd, 2015, 07:55 PM
Those passages were never meant to be taken literal... they would laugh at you.

They are allegorical... always have been... always will be.

Matthew 21:1 When they had approached Jerusalem and had come to Bethphage, at the Mount of Olives, then Jesus sent two disciples, 2 saying to them, "Go into the village opposite you, and immediately you will find a donkey tied there and a colt with her; untie them and bring them to Me. 3 "If anyone says anything to you, you shall say, 'The Lord has need of them,' and immediately he will send them."…4 This took place to fulfill what was spoken through the prophet:…"Say to Daughter Zion, 'See, your king comes to you, gentle and riding on a donkey, and on a colt, the foal of a donkey.'"

Isaiah 62:11
The LORD has made proclamation to the ends of the earth: "Say to Daughter Zion, 'See, your Savior comes! See, his reward is with him, and his recompense accompanies him.'"

Zechariah 9:9
Rejoice greatly, Daughter Zion! Shout, Daughter Jerusalem! See, your king comes to you, righteous and victorious, lowly and riding on a donkey, on a colt, the foal of a donkey.

Genesis 49:11
He will tether his donkey to a vine, his colt to the choicest branch; he will wash his garments in wine, his robes in the blood of grapes.

All looks literal to me, even says it is in Matthew and its cited.

steko
November 2nd, 2015, 08:56 PM
Those passages were never meant to be taken literal... they would laugh at you.

They are allegorical... always have been... always will be.

WOW!!! :dizzy:

Drake Shelton
November 2nd, 2015, 10:39 PM
I could be wrong and am open to proof but, it doesn't seem to me that this is the case. We appear to be in a state of expectancy for the "eschaton"?

Exactly! Which is why we should keep the sabbaths. If the substance has not come, the shadow is still needed.

Drake Shelton
November 2nd, 2015, 10:42 PM
Jews.. even messanic ones are scared to death of Preterism... because it nullifies their entire religion and their false hope of clinging onto Jews being the 'chosen ones'.

Abraham was given the promise... the Jews were given a task, at which they failed miserably at each and every step... and the purpose of that task is no longer relevant (to point to the coming messiah).

It's over for the Jews... finished... done... you can stick a fork in them.

Rom. 11:11 I say then, they did not stumble so as to fall, did they? May it never be! But by their transgression salvation has come to the Gentiles, to make them jealous. 12 Now if their transgression is riches for the world and their failure is riches for the Gentiles, how much more will their [f]fulfillment be! 13 But I am speaking to you who are Gentiles. Inasmuch then as I am an apostle of Gentiles, I magnify my ministry, 14 if somehow I might move to jealousy my [g]fellow countrymen and save some of them. 15 For if their rejection is the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead? 16 If the first piece of dough is holy, the lump is also; and if the root is holy, the branches are too.

17 But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker with them of the [h]rich root of the olive tree, 18 do not be arrogant toward the branches; but if you are arrogant, remember that it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you. 19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” 20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; 21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either. 22 Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.

Are you seriously suggesting that you are immortal?

Drake Shelton
November 2nd, 2015, 10:45 PM
That is the old testament... if you believe it is future, then you have to come to the conclusion that Jesus was a failure.

So let me get this straight. You believe, the second coming, the judgment, the Resurrection to immortality and the final state have either already come or are here now?

Drake Shelton
November 2nd, 2015, 10:49 PM
I challenge anyone to show me a legitimate photograph of the Mt of Olives split in half with a valley running through the middle of it from east to west.

I challenge you to show me when Yah melted mountains and valleys were turned to wax.

Mic 1:3 For look, יהוה is coming out of His place1, and He shall come down and shall tread on the high places of the earth. Footnote: 1Isa. 26:21. Mic 1:4 And the mountains shall melt under Him1, and the valleys be cleft as wax before the fire, as waters poured down a steep place. Footnote: 1Ps. 97:5.

Drake Shelton
November 2nd, 2015, 10:51 PM
Literal, like this?

Zec 9:9 Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem: behold, thy King cometh unto thee: he is just, and having salvation; lowly, and riding upon an ***, and upon a colt the foal of an ***.
Zec 9:10 And I will cut off the chariot from Ephraim, and the horse from Jerusalem, and the battle bow shall be cut off: and he shall speak peace unto the heathen: and his dominion shall be from sea even to sea, and from the river even to the ends of the earth.


The rule of prophetic interpretation is not all figurative or all literal. It is, how do the apostles use the Old Testament.

1 Pet. 1:10 As to this salvation, the prophets who prophesied of the grace that would come to you made careful searches and inquiries, 11 [h]seeking to know what person or time the Spirit of Christ within them was indicating as He predicted the sufferings of Christ and the glories [i]to follow. 12 It was revealed to them that they were not serving themselves, but you, in these things which now have been announced to you through those who preached the gospel to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven—things into which angels long to [j]look.

I have written 166 Theses against Premillennialism.

https://drive.google.com/folderview?id=0BwWXp8taFrb9WWlSb3ZvNVZqSUk&usp=sharing#list

Drake Shelton
November 2nd, 2015, 10:53 PM
Those passages were never meant to be taken literal... they would laugh at you.

They are allegorical... always have been... always will be.

That was clearly litreral.

21 When they had approached Jerusalem and had come to Bethphage, at the Mount of Olives, then Jesus sent two disciples, 2 saying to them, “Go into the village opposite you, and immediately you will find a donkey tied there and a colt with her; untie them and bring them to Me. 3 If anyone says anything to you, you shall say, ‘The Lord has need of them,’ and immediately he will send them.” 4 This [a]took place to fulfill what was spoken through the prophet:

5 “Say to the daughter of Zion,
‘Behold your King is coming to you,
Gentle, and mounted on a donkey,
Even on a colt, the foal of a beast of burden.’”
6 The disciples went and did just as Jesus had instructed them, 7 and brought the donkey and the colt, and laid their coats on them; and He sat on [b]the coats. 8 Most of the crowd spread their coats in the road, and others were cutting branches from the trees and spreading them in the road. 9 The crowds going ahead of Him, and those who followed, were shouting,

“Hosanna to the Son of David;
Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord;
Hosanna in the highest!”
10 When He had entered Jerusalem, all the city was stirred, saying, “Who is this?” 11 And the crowds were saying, “This is the prophet Jesus, from Nazareth in Galilee.”

Drake Shelton
November 2nd, 2015, 10:54 PM
Those passages were never meant to be taken literal... they would laugh at you.

They are allegorical... always have been... always will be.

If the donkey is an allegory then so is Jesus.

iouae
November 2nd, 2015, 11:07 PM
Zech 14 has Christ ruling on earth, and folks coming up to keep the Feast of Tabernacles. Why? Because to believe in Jesus will be easier then. Just take a trip to Jerusalem and see Him with your own eyes.

steko
November 3rd, 2015, 08:35 AM
I challenge you to show me when Yah melted mountains and valleys were turned to wax.

Mic 1:3 For look, יהוה is coming out of His place1, and He shall come down and shall tread on the high places of the earth. Footnote: 1Isa. 26:21. Mic 1:4 And the mountains shall melt under Him1, and the valleys be cleft as wax before the fire, as waters poured down a steep place. Footnote: 1Ps. 97:5.

But, I haven't claimed that the Micah prophesy has already happened, but Allegorists do claim that Zech 14 has already happened.

We'll see.

tetelestai
November 3rd, 2015, 02:33 PM
The sabbath, the harvest feasts and the feast of trumpets are shadows of the final state, the Resurrection, the judgment and the 2nd coming. If you say all these sabbaths are fulfilled and therefore done away with, you have to believe in Full Preterism, that the final state, the Resurrection, the judgment and the 2nd coming have already happened.

https://southernisraelite.wordpress.com/

The three fall feasts (Trumpets, Atonement & Tabernacles) were fulfilled in 70AD.

However, the judgment has not happened yet. That happens when the thousand years is over. Satan is released for a little while before the thousand years is over, and then the final judgment.

tetelestai
November 3rd, 2015, 02:34 PM
Yet, to occur:


Zec 14:1 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh
Zec 14:2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle....
Zec 14:3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations.....
Zec 14:4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley
Zec 14:9 And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.
Zec 14:16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.

Fulfilled in Christ Jesus.

tetelestai
November 3rd, 2015, 02:36 PM
Yes, it's OT prophecy and if you believe it won't happen, then you have come to the conclusion that Jesus will fail.

Jesus didn't fail, John Nelson Darby failed by leading you down the wrong path.

Christ Jesus fulfilled the law and prophets. Every prophecy in the OT was fulfilled by Christ Jesus.

To claim there are OT prophecies unfulfilled, is to call Christ Jesus a failure.

tetelestai
November 3rd, 2015, 02:38 PM
I challenge anyone to show me a legitimate photograph of the Mt of Olives split in half with a valley running through the middle of it from east to west.

You just don't get it because you have so little faith.

(Matt 17:20) He replied, "Because you have so little faith. Truly I tell you, if you have faith as small as a mustard seed, you can say to this mountain, 'Move from here to there,' and it will move. Nothing will be impossible for you."

JonahofAkron
November 3rd, 2015, 02:39 PM
You just don't get it because you have so little faith.

(Matt 17:20) He replied, "Because you have so little faith. Truly I tell you, if you have faith as small as a mustard seed, you can say to this mountain, 'Move from here to there,' and it will move. Nothing will be impossible for you."
So.....half of the Mount of Olives is gone....?

JonahofAkron
November 3rd, 2015, 02:41 PM
Jesus didn't fail, John Nelson Darby failed by leading you down the wrong path.

Christ Jesus fulfilled the law and prophets. Every prophecy in the OT was fulfilled by Christ Jesus.

To claim there are OT prophecies unfulfilled, is to call Christ Jesus a failure.Where is that? Where does it say that ALL prophecies concerning Him are fulfilled and that if we don't believe that they ALL are fulfilled we are calling Messiah a failure?

tetelestai
November 3rd, 2015, 02:43 PM
So let me get this straight. You believe, the second coming, the judgment, the Resurrection to immortality and the final state have either already come or are here now?

Either Jesus fulfilled the law and prophets, or every jot and tittle is still in place.

Dispensationalists (Darby Followers) try to skirt this issue by claiming a secret parenthetical dispensation was sandwiched into time while Jesus is taking a break from fulfilling the law and prophets. Then they have themselves getting secretly raptured away right before Jesus is done with His break and then they have Jesus getting back to fulfilling the law and prophets while they are taken away somewhere.

JonahofAkron
November 3rd, 2015, 02:45 PM
The three fall feasts (Trumpets, Atonement & Tabernacles) was fulfilled in 70AD.[/
QUOTE] .....Where is this history lesson?


[QUOTE]However, the judgment has not happened yet. That happens when the thousand years is over. .....from 70AD? It's been a few more than a thousand.


Satan is released for a little while before the thousand years is over, and then the final judgment.
Still confused about that.......thousand years......where is that?

JonahofAkron
November 3rd, 2015, 02:46 PM
Either Jesus fulfilled the law and prophets, or every jot and tittle is still in place.Where is this found in the biblical material?

tetelestai
November 3rd, 2015, 02:50 PM
I challenge anyone to show me a legitimate photograph of the Mt of Olives split in half with a valley running through the middle of it from east to west.

I challenge you to show me any evidence whatsover of every mountain and hill made low during the ministry of John the Baptist

(Isaiah 40:3-4) 3 The voice of him that crieth in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make straight in the desert a highway for our God.

4 Every valley shall be exalted, and every mountain and hill shall be made low: and the crooked shall be made straight, and the rough places plain:

I just recently drove to Alaska. I saw many mountains in Yukon and Alaska.

The prophecy in Isaiah says EVERY MOUNTAIN would be made low when JTB came onto the scene.

So, did these mountains I saw in Alaska and Yukon come into existence after JTB, or is there symbolism to the prophecy?

tetelestai
November 3rd, 2015, 02:51 PM
Where is this found in the biblical material?

(Matt 5:18) For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.

tetelestai
November 3rd, 2015, 02:54 PM
.....from 70AD? It's been a few more than a thousand.

"thousand years" is hyperbole for a really long time.


Still confused about that.......thousand years......where is that?

(Rev 20:7) When the thousand years are over, Satan will be released from his prison

genuineoriginal
November 3rd, 2015, 02:56 PM
I challenge you to show me any evidence whatsover of every mountain and hill made low during the ministry of John the Baptist

(Isaiah 40:3-4) 3 The voice of him that crieth in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make straight in the desert a highway for our God.

4 Every valley shall be exalted, and every mountain and hill shall be made low: and the crooked shall be made straight, and the rough places plain:

I just recently drove to Alaska. I saw many mountains in Yukon and Alaska.

The prophecy in Isaiah says EVERY MOUNTAIN would be made low when JTB came onto the scene.

So, did these mountains I saw in Alaska and Yukon come into existence after JTB, or is there symbolism to the prophecy?

I explained the symbolism.
The proud (Pharisees, Sadducees, lawyers) were brought low by the Word of Jesus.
The humble (publicans and sinners) were lifted up by the words of Jesus.

genuineoriginal
November 3rd, 2015, 02:57 PM
"thousand years" is hyperbole for a really long time.

And tetelestai is hyperbole for it happened 2000 years ago so we now have no hope?

tetelestai
November 3rd, 2015, 03:06 PM
I explained the symbolism.
The proud (Pharisees, Sadducees, lawyers) were brought low by the Word of Jesus.
The humble (publicans and sinners) were lifted up by the words of Jesus.

If "EVERY MOUNTAIN" is symbolism in Isaiah 40:4, they why is a mountain being split into two with a great valley, taken literally by you guys?

tetelestai
November 3rd, 2015, 03:08 PM
And tetelestai is hyperbole for it happened 2000 years ago so we now have no hope?

Why would that eliminate your hope?

The Apostle Paul tells us our citizenship is in Heaven. Paul tells us we are Ambassadors here on planet earth. Paul tells us that when we die we will be instantly in the presence of the Lord.

genuineoriginal
November 3rd, 2015, 03:23 PM
If "EVERY MOUNTAIN" is symbolism in Isaiah 40:4, they why is a mountain being split into two with a great valley, taken literally by you guys?

Acts 1:11 speaks about Jesus returning to the Mount of Olives, which is also mentioned in Zechariah 14:4 which explains that His feet will touch the Mount of Olives and it will split in two during the coming battle for Jerusalem.

Ezekiel 47:1-12 speaks about the river flowing from the Temple to the dead sea (through the current location of the Mount of Olives), and is also mentioned in Zechariah 14:8 and in Revelation 22:1-2

tetelestai
November 3rd, 2015, 05:10 PM
Acts 1:11 speaks about Jesus returning to the Mount of Olives,

There's nothing in Acts 1:11 about Jesus returning to the Mount of Olives.

genuineoriginal
November 3rd, 2015, 05:29 PM
There's nothing in Acts 1:11 about Jesus returning to the Mount of Olives.

Where were they standing in Acts 1:11?


Acts 1:11-12
11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.
12 Then returned they unto Jerusalem from the mount called Olivet, which is from Jerusalem a sabbath day's journey.

JonahofAkron
November 3rd, 2015, 08:02 PM
(Matt 5:18) For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.

That's my point: the heaven and earth have not passed and the Law is certainly still around. I was asking where you can find the history of His fulfillment of All of the prophecies.

JonahofAkron
November 3rd, 2015, 08:04 PM
"thousand years" is hyperbole for a really long time.



(Rev 20:7) When the thousand years are over, Satan will be released from his prison

At this rate, you'll have told me the whole Bible is not to be taken literally by the end of the week.

JonahofAkron
November 3rd, 2015, 08:04 PM
And tetelestai is hyperbole for it happened 2000 years ago so we now have no hope?

Exactly.

steko
November 3rd, 2015, 08:09 PM
"thousand years" is hyperbole for a really long time.



(Rev 20:7) When the thousand years are over, Satan will be released from his prison

A thousand years is indeed a long time and the word 'thousand/chilioi' is not hyperbole.

steko
November 3rd, 2015, 08:13 PM
Jesus didn't fail, John Nelson Darby failed by leading you down the wrong path.

Christ Jesus fulfilled the law and prophets. Every prophecy in the OT was fulfilled by Christ Jesus.

To claim there are OT prophecies unfulfilled, is to call Christ Jesus a failure.

Origen, Augustine, and James Stuart Russell succeeded in leading you down the wrong path.

steko
November 3rd, 2015, 08:14 PM
You just don't get it because you have so little faith.

(Matt 17:20) He replied, "Because you have so little faith. Truly I tell you, if you have faith as small as a mustard seed, you can say to this mountain, 'Move from here to there,' and it will move. Nothing will be impossible for you."

:dizzy: Zech 14 and Matt 17:20 are unrelated.

Drake Shelton
November 3rd, 2015, 10:43 PM
But, I haven't claimed that the Micah prophesy has already happened, but Allegorists do claim that Zech 14 has already happened.

We'll see.

Then you reject the Scripture. That prophecy concerned judgment on Jerusalem and Samaria. Read 2 Kings 17 and 18. God's judgment was fulfilled under king Shalmaneser.

Drake Shelton
November 3rd, 2015, 10:50 PM
The three fall feasts (Trumpets, Atonement & Tabernacles) were fulfilled in 70AD.

Can I get some evidence for this?


However, the judgment has not happened yet.


Then trumpets and the harvest feasts were not fulfilled.



That happens when the thousand years is over.

Are you saying that there are two judgments and two physical resurrections? If so, you are in error for the teaching of the Bible is that the wicked and righteous are all judged on the same day. Mat. 13:24-30, 25:31-46, John 5:28-29, 6:39-40, 54, 11:24, Acts 17: 31, 24:15, Rom. 2:5-6, 2 Thess. 1:6-10.


Satan is released for a little while before the thousand years is over, and then the final judgment.

John 12:31 Now judgment is upon this world; now the ruler of this world will be cast out. 32 And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself.”

Drake Shelton
November 3rd, 2015, 10:51 PM
To claim there are OT prophecies unfulfilled, is to call Christ Jesus a failure.

Can I get some proof of this or are you just going to stand on your own authority?

Drake Shelton
November 3rd, 2015, 10:55 PM
Either Jesus fulfilled the law and prophets, or every jot and tittle is still in place.

Dispensationalists (Darby Followers) try to skirt this issue by claiming a secret parenthetical dispensation was sandwiched into time while Jesus is taking a break from fulfilling the law and prophets. Then they have themselves getting secretly raptured away right before Jesus is done with His break and then they have Jesus getting back to fulfilling the law and prophets while they are taken away somewhere.

So then he came to do away with the law! Making verse 17 a lie.

Drake Shelton
November 3rd, 2015, 10:56 PM
(Matt 5:18) For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.

Absolutely disgusting. You deliberately left out verse 17.

tetelestai
November 4th, 2015, 06:44 AM
Absolutely disgusting. You deliberately left out verse 17.

Verse 17 proves you even more wrong.

(Matt 5:17) “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.

Jesus makes it clear that until He fulfilled the Law and Prophets, every jot and tittle was still in place.

You claim Jesus hasn't fulfilled the Law and Prophets yet. Therefore, according to Jesus, every jot and tittle is still in place.

I believe Jesus fulfilled all of the Law and Prophets.

You should really learn the difference between "abolish" and "fulfill".

tetelestai
November 4th, 2015, 06:46 AM
Where were they standing in Acts 1:11?

They were standing on the Mount of Olives.

Nothing in Act 1 says Jesus returns to the Mount of Olives.

tetelestai
November 4th, 2015, 06:48 AM
A thousand years is indeed a long time and the word 'thousand/chilioi' is not hyperbole.

(Psalm 50:10) for every animal of the forest is mine, and the cattle on a thousand hills.


"thousand hills" is used as hyperbole in the above verse.

"thousand hills" is hyperbole just like "thousand years" is.

tetelestai
November 4th, 2015, 06:54 AM
Can I get some evidence for this?

Read Matt chp 24, Luke chp 21, and Mark chp 13


Then trumpets and the harvest feasts were not fulfilled.

Yes they were.


Are you saying that there are two judgments and two physical resurrections?

One judgement (hasn't happened yet).

Two resurrections, one for the just, one for the unjust. The one for the just happened in 70AD, the one for the unjust hasn't happened yet. It will happen when the "thousand years" is over.

(Rev 20:5) (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection.



If so, you are in error for the teaching of the Bible is that the wicked and righteous are all judged on the same day.

No they are not, see the above verse:



John 12:31 Now judgment is upon this world; now the ruler of this world will be cast out. 32 And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself.”

Satan was cast out of heaven in 30AD (when Christ Jesus ascended to Heaven)

The judgment that came upon the world, was the destruction of the temple and Jerusalem in 70AD.

JonahofAkron
November 4th, 2015, 06:55 AM
Verse 17 proves you even more wrong.

(Matt 5:17) “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.

Jesus makes it clear that until He fulfilled the Law and Prophets, every jot and tittle was still in place.

You claim Jesus hasn't fulfilled the Law and Prophets yet. Therefore, according to Jesus, every jot and tittle is still in place.

I believe Jesus fulfilled all of the Law and Prophets.

You should really learn the difference between "abolish" and "fulfill".

Except that heaven and earth are still here. No big deal.

tetelestai
November 4th, 2015, 06:57 AM
Can I get some proof of this or are you just going to stand on your own authority?

Jesus said He came to fulfill the Law and Prophets.

Jesus made it clear that some of His contemporaries would still be alive when He returned to finish the fulfillment.

(Matt 24:34) Truly I tell you, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened.

tetelestai
November 4th, 2015, 06:59 AM
Except that heaven and earth are still here. No big deal.

"heaven and earth" is the old covenant.

"the new heavens and the new earth" are the new covenant.

Moses said the following:

(Deut 4:26) I call the heavens and the earth as witnesses against you this day that you will quickly perish from the land that you are crossing the Jordan to possess.

As we see above, Moses referred to the Law and Prophets (old covenant) as a witness. Moses called the Old Covenant "heavens and the earth"

Drake Shelton
November 4th, 2015, 07:42 AM
Verse 17 proves you even more wrong.

(Matt 5:17) “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.

Jesus makes it clear that until He fulfilled the Law and Prophets, every jot and tittle was still in place.

You claim Jesus hasn't fulfilled the Law and Prophets yet. Therefore, according to Jesus, every jot and tittle is still in place.

I believe Jesus fulfilled all of the Law and Prophets.

You should really learn the difference between "abolish" and "fulfill".

He said he didn't come to abolish the law. You say he did. Quit playing these games.

Drake Shelton
November 4th, 2015, 07:44 AM
Read Matt chp 24, Luke chp 21, and Mark chp 13

You didn't answer my question. None of those chapters say those feasts were fulfilled.



Yes they were.


Yeah, I smell a block coming on.


Yeah, you didn't answer a thing I said. You totally left out the paragraph of verses I cited.

Drake Shelton
November 4th, 2015, 07:47 AM
"heaven and earth" is the old covenant.

"the new heavens and the new earth" are the new covenant.

Moses said the following:

(Deut 4:26) I call the heavens and the earth as witnesses against you this day that you will quickly perish from the land that you are crossing the Jordan to possess.

As we see above, Moses referred to the Law and Prophets (old covenant) as a witness. Moses called the Old Covenant "heavens and the earth"


LOL! Unbelievable! It is moments like these I still wish we had an Inquisition.

steko
November 4th, 2015, 08:51 AM
(Psalm 50:10) for every animal of the forest is mine, and the cattle on a thousand hills.


"thousand hills" is used as hyperbole in the above verse.

"thousand hills" is hyperbole just like "thousand years" is.

'eleph' is indeed used hyperbolically in Hebrew.

'chilioi' in Greek is not.

'murias' is the word used for a large indefinite number, in Greek.

steko
November 4th, 2015, 09:00 AM
Then you reject the Scripture. That prophecy concerned judgment on Jerusalem and Samaria. Read 2 Kings 17 and 18. God's judgment was fulfilled under king Shalmaneser.

I don't reject Scripture.
You're correct concerning Micah, but Zech 14 has not happened yet.

We'll see.

tetelestai
November 4th, 2015, 09:05 AM
He said he didn't come to abolish the law. You say he did. Quit playing these games.

Again, learn the difference between "fulfilled" and "abolish"

What do you think "fulfilled" means?

Do you think the law is still in place after it is fulfilled?

For example the Passover was fulfilled by Christ Jesus when He Himself became the sacrifice.

Therefore, the Passover Feast has been fulfilled, it no longer is a requirement.

Jesus didn't abolish Passover, He fulfilled it.

JonahofAkron
November 4th, 2015, 09:08 AM
Again, learn the difference between "fulfilled" and "abolish"

What do you think "fulfilled" means?

Do you think the law is still in place after it is fulfilled?

For example the Passover was fulfilled by Christ Jesus when He Himself became the sacrifice.

Therefore, the Passover Feast has been fulfilled, it no longer is a requirement.

Jesus didn't abolish Passover, He fulfilled it.

If by 'fulfilled', you mean 'completed as to make invalid for application', you are still wrong. Abolish and fulfill in your writing both have the same meaning

tetelestai
November 4th, 2015, 09:10 AM
'chilioi' in Greek is not.


Not according to Strongs:

Word: cilioi

Pronounce: khil'-ee-oy

Strongs Number: G5507

Orig: plural of uncertain affinity; a thousand:--thousand.

Use: TDNT-9:466,1316 Adjective

Heb Strong:

1) a thousand

tetelestai
November 4th, 2015, 09:17 AM
Abolish and fulfill in your writing both have the same meaning

No they don't.

Once the Law and Prophets were fulfilled by Christ Jesus they are no longer in place.

To abolish the Law and Prophets would be to get rid of the Law and Prophets before they were fulfilled.

Christ Jesus fulfilled the Passover, He didn't abolish it.

Those who have faith in Christ Jesus are not required to observe the Passover because it was fulfilled by Christ Jesus.

The Passover, was a shadow of the reality that was to come. The reality is Christ Jesus.

(Col 2:16-17) Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. 17 These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ.

iamaberean
November 4th, 2015, 09:19 AM
Jews.. even messanic ones are scared to death of Preterism... because it nullifies their entire religion and their false hope of clinging onto Jews being the 'chosen ones'.

Abraham was given the promise... the Jews were given a task, at which they failed miserably at each and every step... and the purpose of that task is no longer relevant (to point to the coming messiah).

It's over for the Jews... finished... done... you can stick a fork in them.

All prophecies have been fulfilled by Jesus, that includes to Jews of faith today.

Rom 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.
Rom 3:29 Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also:
Rom 3:30 Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.

JonahofAkron
November 4th, 2015, 09:25 AM
"heaven and earth" is the old covenant.

"the new heavens and the new earth" are the new covenant.

Moses said the following:

(Deut 4:26) I call the heavens and the earth as witnesses against you this day that you will quickly perish from the land that you are crossing the Jordan to possess.

As we see above, Moses referred to the Law and Prophets (old covenant) as a witness. Moses called the Old Covenant "heavens and the earth"

That's ridiculous; a stretch if I've ever seen one. Calling someone a witness to something does not make their name that thing........ Where did you pick all of this up?

steko
November 4th, 2015, 09:30 AM
Not according to Strongs:

Word: cilioi

Pronounce: khil'-ee-oy

Strongs Number: G5507

Orig: plural of uncertain affinity; a thousand:--thousand.

Use: TDNT-9:466,1316 Adjective

Heb Strong:

1) a thousand

That means that the origin of the word has no known connection etymologically. It doesn't mean that the word 'chilioi' is used hyperbolically in the NT.

The word is used in the NT as an exact number.

For instance it is used here of the precise number 'five-thousand' but changed to an approximation by the use of the word 'about'.

Mat_14:21 And they that had eaten were about five thousand men, beside women and children.

Same here:

Act_2:41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.

In this verse the word 'thousand' in Greek is 'murias', meaning an indefinite number:

Act 19:19 Many of them also which used curious arts brought their books together, and burned them before all men: and they counted the price of them, and found it fifty thousand pieces of silver.

In these verses, 'dodeka chilias' is a precise measurement, just as 'cubit' is a precise measurement:


Rev 21:16 And the city lieth foursquare, and the length is as large as the breadth: and he measured the city with the reed, twelve thousand furlongs. The length and the breadth and the height of it are equal.
Rev 21:17 And he measured the wall thereof, an hundred and forty and four cubits, according to the measure of a man, that is, of the angel.

Do you really believe that the intention is to communicate that the measurement of the city was of an indefinite length?

Are we to take it that when it was said twelve thousand furlongs, we are to just interpret it as any number that each reader can imagine?
In that case, words and numbers don't really mean anything.

tetelestai
November 4th, 2015, 09:33 AM
That's ridiculous; a stretch if I've ever seen one. Calling someone a witness to something does not make their name that thing........ Where did you pick all of this up?

Jesus said until heaven and earth pass away not one jot or tittle shall not pass from the law until the Law and Prophets are fulfilled.

Notice it says "UNTIL heaven and earth pass".

Has the heaven and earth passed away?

tetelestai
November 4th, 2015, 09:44 AM
Are we to take it that when it was said twelve thousand furlongs, we are to just interpret it as any number that each reader can imagine?
In that case, words and numbers don't really mean anything.

"twelve thousand" is specific.

"about three thousand" is an estimate that's close to actually 3,000.

"A thousand years" is hyperbole.

The same Greek word "cilioi" is used in the following verse:

(2 Peter 3:8) But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day.

As we see above "thousand years" is once again used as hyperbole the same way it is used in Rev 20.

Also, John uses lots of OT symbolism in Revelation. "thousand years" is used as hyperbole many times in the OT.


That means that the origin of the word has no known connection etymologically. It doesn't mean that the word 'chilioi' is used hyperbolically in the NT.

That's my point. The origin has no connection.


The word is used in the NT as an exact number.

Not when it is written "a thousand".

JonahofAkron
November 4th, 2015, 09:55 AM
No they don't.

Once the Law and Prophets were fulfilled by Christ Jesus they are no longer in place. That sentiment is stated NOWHERE in the Torah, Prophets, Histories, or Apostolic writings. Purely speculative interpretation.


To abolish the Law and Prophets would be to get rid of the Law and Prophets before they were fulfilled. You are semantically arguing for the same thing if you say that 'fulfill' means we don't do it anymore; it's the same thing either way you try to slice it.


Christ Jesus fulfilled the Passover, He didn't abolish it.
A point that you and I agree on.

Those who have faith in Christ Jesus are not required to observe the Passover because it was fulfilled by Christ Jesus. Interesting point of view. I have heard that one a lot. It leads me to wonder why Paul and Peter never got that memo. They continued to live by Torah after His resurrection....seems like a key point that they were not given. If you have questions about their living of the Torah, I'll address them as they come. I don't exactly have time to write them yet.


The Passover, was a shadow of the reality that was to come. The reality is Christ Jesus.
So, the shadow is made obsolete when the object making the shadow comes into view?


(Col 2:16-17) Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. 17 These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ.
The context of the verse is not whether you should follow the Torah or not; it's about ignoring the judgement of the pagans that disagree with Gentiles coming to Messiah-there is not a mention of Jewish people in this passage.

tetelestai
November 4th, 2015, 09:55 AM
"a thousand years" - hyperbole for a really long time.
"a thousand hills" - hyperbole for a lot of hills.

"one thousand years" - 1,000 literal years.
"one thousand hills" - 1,000 literal hills.

JonahofAkron
November 4th, 2015, 09:57 AM
Jesus said until heaven and earth pass away not one jot or tittle shall not pass from the law until the Law and Prophets are fulfilled.

Notice it says "UNTIL heaven and earth pass".

Has the heaven and earth passed away? Right. That's what I'm saying. Did we get our points confused? You did say that heaven and earth passed away, right?

tetelestai
November 4th, 2015, 09:59 AM
You are semantically arguing for the same thing if you say that 'fulfill' means we don't do it anymore; it's the same thing either way you try to slice it.

It's not the same thing, but you are correct that after it was fulfilled, we don't do it anymore.

I didn't have to be circumcised, I don't have to sacrifice animals, I don't have to refrain from certain foods, I don't have to make annual pilgrimages to Jerusalem, etc. because they were all shadows of what was to come, and were fulfilled by Christ Jesus.

When the priesthood changed, the law changed.

Yet for some reason, you think the priesthood changed, but the law stayed the same.

tetelestai
November 4th, 2015, 10:03 AM
Right. That's what I'm saying. Did we get our points confused? You did say that heaven and earth passed away, right?

Correct, Jesus said UNTIL.

That means one of two things.

If you think "heaven and earth" is the literal physical planet earth and the literal physical heavens, then they haven't passed away, which means ever jot and tittle of the law is still in place right now, and will be until planet earth literally/physically passes away.

If you think "heaven and earth" is symbolic for the old covenant/Law & Prophets, then the old covenant/Law & Prophets has passed away (because it was fulfilled by Christ Jesus), we now live in the new covenant and don't have to observe the Mosaic Law.

Those are the only two choices.

tetelestai
November 4th, 2015, 10:13 AM
Interesting point of view. I have heard that one a lot. It leads me to wonder why Paul and Peter never got that memo. They continued to live by Torah after His resurrection....seems like a key point that they were not given. If you have questions about their living of the Torah, I'll address them as they come. I don't exactly have time to write them yet.

Just like when Moses was given the old covenant, there was a 40 year transition before it became 100% fully in place. For example, none of the Israelite men born for 40 years in the wilderness were circumcised. Therefore, these men couldn't participate in the feasts, but the men who were circumcised (i.e. Moses, Aaron, Joshua) did.

Same thing with the new covenant. After it was put in place at the cross, the old covenant still existed, but was gradually getting faded out. Hebrews tells us the old covenant was obsolete, and would soon disappear.

Come 70AD, the old covenant came to a complete end, and the new covenant was 100% fully in place.

The NT gets confusing because Peter was preaching to people born under the law, while Paul was preaching to people who never even heard of the law.

To make it even more confusing, Paul at times preached to Jews under the law, and Paul said the following:

(1 Cor 9:20) To the Jews I became like a Jew, to win the Jews. To those under the law I became like one under the law (though I myself am not under the law), so as to win those under the law.


Paul stopped observing the law when he placed his faith in Christ Jesus. Paul was a minister of the new covenant. However, as we see above, Paul at times acted like a Jew and observed the law only to win those under the law.


They continued to live by Torah after His resurrection

See 1 Cor 9:20

jzeidler
November 4th, 2015, 10:53 AM
Col 2:16 Therefore let no one pass judgment on you in questions of food and drink, or with regard to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath.

Col 2:17 These are a shadow of the things to come, but the substance belongs to Christ.

There you go. None of these feasts or holy days matter. Who cares?! The only important thing is Christ.

JonahofAkron
November 4th, 2015, 11:18 AM
It's not the same thing, but you are correct that after it was fulfilled, we don't do it anymore. I didn't say that as a point that I agree with; I said it in hopes that you would realize that your position is one without continuity and error.


I didn't have to be circumcised, I don't have to sacrifice animals, I don't have to refrain from certain foods, I don't have to make annual pilgrimages to Jerusalem, etc. because they were all shadows of what was to come, and were fulfilled by Christ Jesus. Paul's declaration of there being a circumcision of the heart fulfills that aspect of the Law being followed in your life. His discussion on that proves it from Scripture-as far as the claims on food, I'll need you to point to the specific verses you use.


When the priesthood changed, the law changed. Yes. The laws regarding the priesthood.


Yet for some reason, you think the priesthood changed, but the law stayed the same. There was obviously a change regarding the priesthood, but that doesn't scrap the whole thing. Nothing in the bible indicates this.

JonahofAkron
November 4th, 2015, 11:22 AM
Correct, Jesus said UNTIL.

That means one of two things.

If you think "heaven and earth" is the literal physical planet earth and the literal physical heavens, then they haven't passed away, which means ever jot and tittle of the law is still in place right now, and will be until planet earth literally/physically passes away.

If you think "heaven and earth" is symbolic for the old covenant/Law & Prophets, then the old covenant/Law & Prophets has passed away (because it was fulfilled by Christ Jesus), we now live in the new covenant and don't have to observe the Mosaic Law.

Those are the only two choices. I agree that there are only two choices: claiming that the earth and moon are synonymous with the 'old covenant'; or believing that the covenant had two witnesses that would stand for a long time as proof of what things God said in His Law. If the Law is a physical representation of God (it's called perfect and righteous and true in the Psalms multiples of times), then why would it need to go away?

SaulToPaul
November 4th, 2015, 11:32 AM
I agree that there are only two choices: claiming that the earth and moon are synonymous with the 'old covenant'; or believing that the covenant had two witnesses that would stand for a long time as proof of what things God said in His Law. If the Law is a physical representation of God (it's called perfect and righteous and true in the Psalms multiples of times), then why would it need to go away?

In the beginning, God created the old covenant. (Per Tet)

tetelestai
November 4th, 2015, 11:39 AM
In the beginning, God created the old covenant. (Per Tet)

In symbolism there is always something literal, otherwise you wouldn't have symbolism.

Jesus is called the lamb of God. Jesus ate lamb at Passover. Study to show yourself approved, and you wouldn't be so confused.

JonahofAkron
November 4th, 2015, 11:39 AM
Just like when Moses was given the old covenant, there was a 40 year transition before it became 100% fully in place. For example, none of the Israelite men born for 40 years in the wilderness were circumcised. Therefore, these men couldn't participate in the feasts, but the men who were circumcised (i.e. Moses, Aaron, Joshua) did.
Was it exactly forty years? Or is this another one of those 'I can interpret how it best fits my situation' type things?


Same thing with the new covenant. After it was put in place at the cross, the old covenant still existed, but was gradually getting faded out. Hebrews tells us the old covenant was obsolete, and would soon disappear.
Interesting, where do you put Hebrews? Most scholars put it after the Temple's destruction in 70 AD. I'm open to suggestions about that, but by their understanding, it puts your hypothesis on difficult ground.

Come 70AD, the old covenant came to a complete end, and the new covenant was 100% fully in place. Where is this stated? That would be an important thing for us to know...why don't we see historical documents about it?


The NT gets confusing because Peter was preaching to people born under the law, while Paul was preaching to people who never even heard of the law. Except that those people that 'never heard the Law' had mostly come into the congregations of the Jews....no big deal.


To make it even more confusing, Paul at times preached to Jews under the law, and Paul said the following:

(1 Cor 9:20) To the Jews I became like a Jew, to win the Jews. To those under the law I became like one under the law (though I myself am not under the law), so as to win those under the law.


Paul stopped observing the law when he placed his faith in Christ Jesus. Paul was a minister of the new covenant. However, as we see above, Paul at times acted like a Jew and observed the law only to win those under the law. Soooooo.....Paul is a hypocrite? That's a liar's life...not anything that I would see Paul doing. You need to fact check, fella.


[QUOTE
See 1 Cor 9:20[/QUOTE]Acts 25:8. Paul is a liar or you have him confused. I'd place my money that the issue with your interpretation.

tetelestai
November 4th, 2015, 11:39 AM
There you go. None of these feasts or holy days matter. Who cares?! The only important thing is Christ.

That's correct !!!!

JonahofAkron
November 4th, 2015, 11:39 AM
Col 2:16 Therefore let no one pass judgment on you in questions of food and drink, or with regard to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath.

Col 2:17 These are a shadow of the things to come, but the substance belongs to Christ.

There you go. None of these feasts or holy days matter. Who cares?! The only important thing is Christ.
What about how He lived? Is that important?

tetelestai
November 4th, 2015, 11:42 AM
Yes. The laws regarding the priesthood.

That's not what it says.

(Heb 7:12) For when the priesthood is changed, the law must be changed also.


"The Law" refers to the whole law, not just one particular part of it.

JonahofAkron
November 4th, 2015, 11:45 AM
In the beginning, God created the old covenant. (Per Tet)

Only to be destroyed later by Jesus....Oh, Tet.

tetelestai
November 4th, 2015, 11:45 AM
If the Law is a physical representation of God (it's called perfect and righteous and true in the Psalms multiples of times), then why would it need to go away?

Because no one can keep it. It's impossible to keep it.

The law was a schoolmaster to show us we need a Savior because we can't keep it.

Only faith in Christ Jesus makes us righteous before God. Trying to keep the law does not make you righteous before God:

(Gal 3:11) Clearly no one who relies on the law is justified before God, because "the righteous will live by faith."

JonahofAkron
November 4th, 2015, 11:47 AM
That's not what it says.

(Heb 7:12) For when the priesthood is changed, the law must be changed also.


"The Law" refers to the whole law, not just one particular part of it.
Incorrect. It is specific to the priesthood. The previous clause makes it obvious.

tetelestai
November 4th, 2015, 11:49 AM
What about how He lived? Is that important?

Yes.

That's the only way you can be made righteous before God.

It was His perfect faith, His perfect righteousness that is the only way you can be made righteous before God.

And, it can only be done by faith, not by trying to keep the law.

jzeidler
November 4th, 2015, 11:49 AM
What about how He lived? Is that important?


He was still in the Jewish economy. He had to do those in order to be a good Jew. But when the cross happened the Jewish economy got destroyed. Thus we do not have to keep them because Jesus kept them for us.

JonahofAkron
November 4th, 2015, 11:56 AM
Because no one can keep it. It's impossible to keep it. Just so I'm clear, you're saying that God created something for us that He had no intention of us actually being able to do? I wonder how his statements about it not being too difficult in Deuteronomy 30 or 31 or whatever.


The law was a schoolmaster to show us we need a Savior because we can't keep it. Is that how normal schoolmasters work? They teach you all of things that you can't possibly do? Or is it that they incrementally teach you the things that lead to the next lesson, all things building on the previous teachings so as to produce an educated person? You have strange beliefs.


Only faith in Christ Jesus makes us righteous before God. Trying to keep the law does not make you righteous before God:

(Gal 3:11) Clearly no one who relies on the law is justified before God, because "the righteous will live by faith."
Something we can agree on.

JonahofAkron
November 4th, 2015, 11:57 AM
He was still in the Jewish economy. He had to do those in order to be a good Jew. But when the cross happened the Jewish economy got destroyed. Thus we do not have to keep them because Jesus kept them for us.
In order to be a good Jew?! He did those things because they are part of Him-if He is the Law (Word) made flesh, those things are His very nature. And again, if the Jewish economy was destroyed, why didn't Peter and Paul and the rest of the apostles get the memo; they still lived Jewish lives.

JonahofAkron
November 4th, 2015, 12:02 PM
Yes.

That's the only way you can be made righteous before God.

It was His perfect faith, His perfect righteousness that is the only way you can be made righteous before God.

And, it can only be done by faith, not by trying to keep the law.
I never said that keeping the Law made you righteous-that's your belief about me. I believe that His keeping of the Law certainly gave us grace so that when we mess up, we are forgiven.

SaulToPaul
November 4th, 2015, 01:39 PM
Per Tet, the implementation of the new covenant:



Revelation 21King James Version (KJV)

21 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.

4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.

6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.

7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.

8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

9 And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife.

10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,

11 Having the glory of God: and her light was like unto a stone most precious, even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal;

12 And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel:

13 On the east three gates; on the north three gates; on the south three gates; and on the west three gates.

14 And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.

15 And he that talked with me had a golden reed to measure the city, and the gates thereof, and the wall thereof.

16 And the city lieth foursquare, and the length is as large as the breadth: and he measured the city with the reed, twelve thousand furlongs. The length and the breadth and the height of it are equal.

17 And he measured the wall thereof, an hundred and forty and four cubits, according to the measure of a man, that is, of the angel.

18 And the building of the wall of it was of jasper: and the city was pure gold, like unto clear glass.

19 And the foundations of the wall of the city were garnished with all manner of precious stones. The first foundation was jasper; the second, sapphire; the third, a chalcedony; the fourth, an emerald;

20 The fifth, sardonyx; the sixth, sardius; the seventh, chrysolyte; the eighth, beryl; the ninth, a topaz; the tenth, a chrysoprasus; the eleventh, a jacinth; the twelfth, an amethyst.

21 And the twelve gates were twelve pearls: every several gate was of one pearl: and the street of the city was pure gold, as it were transparent glass.

22 And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it.

23 And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.

24 And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it.

25 And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there.

26 And they shall bring the glory and honour of the nations into it.

27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.

jzeidler
November 4th, 2015, 09:19 PM
In order to be a good Jew?! He did those things because they are part of Him-if He is the Law (Word) made flesh, those things are His very nature. And again, if the Jewish economy was destroyed, why didn't Peter and Paul and the rest of the apostles get the memo; they still lived Jewish lives.


No they didn't. They were told to eat "unclean" creatures, ate with Gentiles, and didn't feel the need to observe feasts and sabbaths. Paul said he was all things to all men. He would live like a gentile to win them over to Jesus.

JonahofAkron
November 4th, 2015, 10:17 PM
No they didn't. They were told to eat "unclean" creatures, ate with Gentiles, and didn't feel the need to observe feasts and sabbaths. Paul said he was all things to all men. He would live like a gentile to win them over to Jesus.

Proof? All of this is unsubstantiated and had been addressed. Feel free to rescue what has already been said.

Drake Shelton
November 4th, 2015, 10:53 PM
Again, learn the difference between "fulfilled" and "abolish"

What do you think "fulfilled" means?

Do you think the law is still in place after it is fulfilled?

For example the Passover was fulfilled by Christ Jesus when He Himself became the sacrifice.

Therefore, the Passover Feast has been fulfilled, it no longer is a requirement.

Jesus didn't abolish Passover, He fulfilled it.

Jesus defines what fulfill means:


19 Whoever then annuls one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others to do the same, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever [j]keeps and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Paul says the sabbaths ARE, present tense, shadows of things to come IN THE FUTURE!

Col 2:16 Let no one therefore judge you in eating or in drinking, or in respect of a festival or a new moon or Sabbaths –
Col 2:17 which are a shadow of what is to come – but the Body of the Messiah.

Drake Shelton
November 4th, 2015, 10:56 PM
Col 2:16 Therefore let no one pass judgment on you in questions of food and drink, or with regard to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath.

Col 2:17 These are a shadow of the things to come, but the substance belongs to Christ.

There you go. None of these feasts or holy days matter. Who cares?! The only important thing is Christ.

Sir, you could not have stepped on your tongue any harder. He says they ARE, present tense shadows of things to come, IN THE FUTURE. On your interpretation he should have said, These WERE shadows of things in the past.

Drake Shelton
November 4th, 2015, 10:58 PM
That's not what it says.

(Heb 7:12) For when the priesthood is changed, the law must be changed also.


"The Law" refers to the whole law, not just one particular part of it.

The administration of the priesthood changed when the Tabernacle dissolved into the Temple system which was very different. 2 Chron 5. Yet, it wasn't called a moral change of the law.

Drake Shelton
November 4th, 2015, 10:59 PM
He was still in the Jewish economy. He had to do those in order to be a good Jew. But when the cross happened the Jewish economy got destroyed. Thus we do not have to keep them because Jesus kept them for us.

1 John 2:6 the one who says he abides in Him ought himself to walk in the same manner as He walked.

tetelestai
November 4th, 2015, 11:00 PM
Sir, you could not have stepped on your tongue any harder. He says they ARE, present tense shadows of things to come, IN THE FUTURE.

(Col 2:17 NIV) These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ.

The most important part of the verse is the last part: "the reality, however, is found in Christ".

JonahofAkron
November 5th, 2015, 07:23 AM
(Col 2:17 NIV) These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ.

The most important part of the verse is the last part: "the reality, however, is found in Christ".

The Law and Messiah are not in opposition to each other. Check that conjunction in Greek: it is not necessarily 'however'. And remember that the context is the gnostics telling the Colossians they shouldn't do the feasts...... Sorry of like you are telling others.

jzeidler
November 5th, 2015, 09:29 AM
Proof? All of this is unsubstantiated and had been addressed. Feel free to rescue what has already been said.


Unclean creatures (acts 10:-16) eat with Gentiles (acts 10:17-48 & Gal 2:11-14) not keeping holy days (Col 2:16) all things to all people (1Cor 9:19-23)

There you go.

jzeidler
November 5th, 2015, 09:32 AM
Sir, you could not have stepped on your tongue any harder. He says they ARE, present tense shadows of things to come, IN THE FUTURE. On your interpretation he should have said, These WERE shadows of things in the past.


The things to come was Christ and the cross. That's what the festivals were pointing to. Besides, I would rather fall in love with the substance not the shadow. What you want to do is equivalent to making out with a picture of your wife while she is standing in front of you. The shadow is meaningless, the substance is what counts.

OCTOBER23
November 5th, 2015, 09:33 AM
ALL THE FEASTS CAN BE FULFILLED AGAIN AND AGAIN AND AGAIN.

So Preterists are out of luck.

JonahofAkron
November 5th, 2015, 09:33 AM
Unclean creatures (acts 10:-16) eat with Gentiles (acts 10:17-48 & Gal 2:11-14) not keeping holy days (Col 2:16) all things to all people (1Cor 9:19-23)

There you go.

These have been answered. Can you answer my replies to them?

jzeidler
November 5th, 2015, 09:34 AM
The Law and Messiah are not in opposition to each other. Check that conjunction in Greek: it is not necessarily 'however'. And remember that the context is the gnostics telling the Colossians they shouldn't do the feasts...... Sorry of like you are telling others.


Yes they are. I am divorced from the law and married to Christ. Read your bible. Stop trying to be a Jew to please God and just be his son.

JonahofAkron
November 5th, 2015, 09:38 AM
My point still stands despite your interpretation. I would rather fall in love with the substance not the shadow. What you want to do is equivalent to making out with a picture of your wife while she is standing in front of you. The shadow is meaningless, the substance is what counts.

Not true at all. You seem to think that the shadow disappears when the person casting it is present and that's simply untrue.

Another thing, the shadow will always outline what the shadow caster looks like-if we contextualize that, it means that the Law outlines who Messiah is and He will do: that substance is still the Law! He lived it and was it's physical embodiment on earth; the shadow caster only defines it's shadow more. His claim in Matthew 5:17-20 is to do just that: full it up and define it more for us to follow Him.

jzeidler
November 5th, 2015, 09:42 AM
Not true at all. You seem to think that the shadow disappears when the person casting it is present and that's simply untrue.

Another thing, the shadow will always outline what the shadow caster looks like-if we contextualize that, it means that the Law outlines who Messiah is and He will do: that substance is still the Law! He lived it and was it's physical embodiment on earth; the shadow caster only defines it's shadow more. His claim in Matthew 5:17-20 is to do just that: full it up and define it more for us to follow Him.


Read Romans 7 and you'll find out I'm right. Besides, when I have Jesus in front of me I don't care about his shadow. It's stupid to care about the shadow of the person you love when they are right there. In essence to love the shadow when the person is there is to commit adultery with their shadow. It's ridiculous and not even worth arguing about because it is so stupid.

OCTOBER23
November 5th, 2015, 09:43 AM
Zigfeild said,

I am divorced from the law and married to Christ.
-----------------------------------------------------

-- What does your wife feel about that ?:):p

John 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

Revelation 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints:

here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

jzeidler
November 5th, 2015, 09:44 AM
Watch this, it will show you that the shadows are done away with.

http://youtu.be/BM5--wsKIuk

Don't reply to this unless you actually watched it. So watch it and if you want to talk about it cool.

tetelestai
November 5th, 2015, 09:47 AM
The administration of the priesthood changed when the Tabernacle dissolved into the Temple system

The priests still had to be Levites from the family of Aaron.

The writer of Hebrews tells us that was still the case up to the days of Christ Jesus:

(Heb 7:5) And verily they that are of the sons of Levi, who receive the office of the priesthood, have a commandment to take tithes of the people according to the law, that is, of their brethren, though they come out of the loins of Abraham:

tetelestai
November 5th, 2015, 09:48 AM
And remember that the context is the gnostics telling the Colossians they shouldn't do the feasts......

Are you calling the Apostle Paul a gnostic?

OCTOBER23
November 5th, 2015, 09:56 AM
Hey Zigler, take a look at your bible .

JESUS TOOK AWAY THE ANIMAL SACRIFICES THAT WERE A SHADOW OF JESUS.

HE DID NOT TAKE AWAY THE 10 COMMANDMENTS .

:duh:

jzeidler
November 5th, 2015, 10:03 AM
Zigfeild said,

I am divorced from the law and married to Christ.
-----------------------------------------------------

-- What does your wife feel about that ?:):p

John 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

Revelation 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints:

here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.


Romans 7:1-6

Drake Shelton
November 5th, 2015, 10:27 AM
(Col 2:17 NIV) These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ.

The most important part of the verse is the last part: "the reality, however, is found in Christ".

LOL!!!

This is the Greek: ἅ ἐστιν σκιὰ τῶν μελλόντων τὸ δὲ σῶμα τοῦ Χριστοῦ

Could you please point out the word were here. Also soma (σῶμα ) does not mean reality. It means the body of messiah.

You people are disgusting.

Drake Shelton
November 5th, 2015, 10:30 AM
Unclean creatures (acts 10:-16) eat with Gentiles (acts 10:17-48 & Gal 2:11-14) not keeping holy days (Col 2:16) all things to all people (1Cor 9:19-23)

There you go.

Read acts 11 Peter tells us plainly that vision meant gentiles were now coming into the covenant of Abraham.

The torah did not forbid eating with circumcised gentiles. Col. 2:16-17 commands keeping sabbaths. He says they ARE present shadows of things to come.

Then you believe in moral relativism?

Drake Shelton
November 5th, 2015, 10:32 AM
The things to come was Christ and the cross. That's what the festivals were pointing to. Besides, I would rather fall in love with the substance not the shadow. What you want to do is equivalent to making out with a picture of your wife while she is standing in front of you. The shadow is meaningless, the substance is what counts.

Answer the op of this thread.

Drake Shelton
November 5th, 2015, 10:34 AM
The priests still had to be Levites from the family of Aaron.

The writer of Hebrews tells us that was still the case up to the days of Christ Jesus:

(Heb 7:5) And verily they that are of the sons of Levi, who receive the office of the priesthood, have a commandment to take tithes of the people according to the law, that is, of their brethren, though they come out of the loins of Abraham:

You didn't address a single thing I said.

Drake Shelton
November 5th, 2015, 10:51 AM
Watch this, it will show you that the shadows are done away with.

http://youtu.be/BM5--wsKIuk

Don't reply to this unless you actually watched it. So watch it and if you want to talk about it cool.

I've stopped at minute 13
at 12:32 he admits the passage says are, present tense, shadows of things that are, present tense, to come, future, and at 12:42 he admits the word is body not substance. That destroys your whole argument and admits mine. It's over dude. Finished. You've been had.

genuineoriginal
November 5th, 2015, 10:53 AM
No they didn't. They were told to eat "unclean" creatures, ate with Gentiles, and didn't feel the need to observe feasts and sabbaths. Paul said he was all things to all men. He would live like a gentile to win them over to Jesus.

You must have forgotten to read Romans 14.

jzeidler
November 5th, 2015, 11:07 AM
I've stopped at minute 13

at 12:32 he admits the passage says are, present tense, shadows of things that are, present tense, to come, future, and at 12:42 he admits the word is body not substance. That destroys your whole argument and admits mine. It's over dude. Finished. You've been had.


Maybe you should watch the whole thing so you can actually hear what he has to say.

JonahofAkron
November 5th, 2015, 11:44 AM
Read Romans 7 and you'll find out I'm right. Besides, when I have Jesus in front of me I don't care about his shadow.But that's the point: His shadow outlines Him and He is the fullness of what His shadow represents. If you carry that into the discussion of the Law, He is the fullness of what the Law stated-He is the Word incarnate.

It's stupid to care about the shadow of the person you love when they are right there. In essence to love the shadow when the person is there is to commit adultery with their shadow. It's ridiculous and not even worth arguing about because it is so stupid.
I'm not saying that I'm in love with a shadow. That's ridiculous and a straw man. I'm telling you that if you're saying that the shadow is made obsolete then carry the analogy through to it's actual end: He is the fullness of the Law embodied. It is worth arguing because you are still setting up a fallacious argument that you think that I'm giving you and that is simply untrue.

JonahofAkron
November 5th, 2015, 11:47 AM
Are you calling the Apostle Paul a gnostic?On the contrary, I'm saying that he is telling the Colossians to ignore the Gnostics when they try to judge the Colossians for following the commands of God-in particular, the feast days.

tetelestai
November 5th, 2015, 11:59 AM
You didn't address a single thing I said.

You said the administration of the priests changed when they went from a tabernacle to a temple.

Nowhere in the Bible does it say that the priesthood of Levites from the family of Aaron could be changed until Jesus became a priest.

JonahofAkron
November 5th, 2015, 02:02 PM
You must have forgotten to read Romans 14.
Not to mention Romans 3:31.

Drake Shelton
November 6th, 2015, 06:26 AM
You said the administration of the priests changed when they went from a tabernacle to a temple.

Nowhere in the Bible does it say that the priesthood of Levites from the family of Aaron could be changed until Jesus became a priest.

You just admitted that I did not make that argument. I did not argue that the Priesthood changed into a different priesthood. I argued, as you just admitted, that the administration of the priests changed.

OCTOBER23
November 7th, 2015, 10:16 AM
ZEIGLER,


Rom. 7:22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man

The LAW OF THE 10 COMMANDMENTS IS NOW SPIRITUAL

AND THAT IS WHY YOU MUST REPENT OF YOUR EVIL THOUGHTS.

PURIFY THE MIND
--------------------

Titus 2:14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity,

and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

James 4:8 Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands,

Ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded.

JonahofAkron
November 8th, 2015, 11:15 AM
Bump for jzeidler and Tet.