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Robert Pate
November 1st, 2015, 08:33 AM
There was rebellion and war in heaven.

"And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels and prevailed not; neither was there place found any more in heaven and the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the devil and Satan, which deceives the whole world; he was cast out into the earth and his angels were cast out with him" Revelation 12:7-9.

Anyone or anything that can rebel or sin against God has a free will.

Humans are higher in authority than angels. We will even judge angels, 1 Corinthians 6:3.

This is what may have caused the rebellion in heaven. The word got out that God was going to create humans that would be greater than angels and would judge angels.

I can't see where there is anything on this earth that lives and breathes and does not have a free will. I live in the country. We have bears, deer, racoons, foxes, etc, that are all doing their own thing. Nothing is programed to act or to do a certain thing. Some times these animals even interact with each other.

There is a lot of randomness in nature. We never know what to expect. Sometimes it snows in October. Sometimes it snows in November. Last year it didn't snow until December. There is no set pattern to anything, nothing is programed to act in a certain way.

dialm
November 1st, 2015, 08:36 AM
More duplicity?

Robert Pate
November 1st, 2015, 09:04 AM
More duplicity?

You can't refute it can you?

musterion
November 1st, 2015, 09:36 AM
Anyone or anything that can rebel or sin against God has a free will [else the sin really isn't sin].Yep.

dialm
November 1st, 2015, 11:01 AM
You can't refute it can you?

You don't know what you are talking about. If you did then this would be a serious breach. Instead of what it really is.

musterion
November 1st, 2015, 11:27 AM
You can't refute it can you?

Nope.

patrick jane
November 1st, 2015, 12:11 PM
There was rebellion and war in heaven.

"And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels and prevailed not; neither was there place found any more in heaven and the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the devil and Satan, which deceives the whole world; he was cast out into the earth and his angels were cast out with him" Revelation 12:7-9.

Anyone or anything that can rebel or sin against God has a free will.

Humans are higher in authority than angels. We will even judge angels, 1 Corinthians 6:3.

This is what may have caused the rebellion in heaven. The word got out that God was going to create humans that would be greater than angels and would judge angels.

I can't see where there is anything on this earth that lives and breathes and does not have a free will. I live in the country. We have bears, deer, racoons, foxes, etc, that are all doing their own thing. Nothing is programed to act or to do a certain thing. Some times these animals even interact with each other.

There is a lot of randomness in nature. We never know what to expect. Sometimes it snows in October. Sometimes it snows in November. Last year it didn't snow until December. There is no set pattern to anything, nothing is programed to act in a certain way.

That's just it ! God didn't and doesn't create evil, it is a circumstance of the original sin. God created all things and saw that it was GOOD. God didn't see one or two bad things when He created. God's creation is ALL GOOD !!!

dialm
November 1st, 2015, 12:22 PM
Nope.


(from the back cover)

Featuring these old-time Reformed hits...

Jesus Loves Me But Not You

Irresistible Grace, How Sweet the Sound

Blessed Perseverance

Rescue the Perishing (Except Them Reprobates)

If You're Elect And You Know It...


You are not one of those choir boys are you?

musterion
November 1st, 2015, 12:45 PM
Not in your choir, and definitely not to your concept of God.

OCTOBER23
November 1st, 2015, 12:49 PM
SATAN HAD FREE WILL AND HE REBELLED.:devil:

SOME WENT WITH HIM AND SOME STAYED WITH GOD (JESUS).

WHAT ARE YOU GOING TO DO WHEN YOU GET TO HEAVEN.

That is the REASON GOD is TRAINING US NOT TO REBEL.:rapture::rapture:

intojoy
November 1st, 2015, 12:58 PM
There was rebellion and war in heaven.

"And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels and prevailed not; neither was there place found any more in heaven and the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the devil and Satan, which deceives the whole world; he was cast out into the earth and his angels were cast out with him" Revelation 12:7-9.

Anyone or anything that can rebel or sin against God has a free will.

Humans are higher in authority than angels. We will even judge angels, 1 Corinthians 6:3.

This is what may have caused the rebellion in heaven. The word got out that God was going to create humans that would be greater than angels and would judge angels.

I can't see where there is anything on this earth that lives and breathes and does not have a free will. I live in the country. We have bears, deer, racoons, foxes, etc, that are all doing their own thing. Nothing is programed to act or to do a certain thing. Some times these animals even interact with each other.

There is a lot of randomness in nature. We never know what to expect. Sometimes it snows in October. Sometimes it snows in November. Last year it didn't snow until December. There is no set pattern to anything, nothing is programed to act in a certain way.

Angels were created in a state of unconfirmed holiness with the ability to choose against their nature. They were holy but made an unholy choice thus those that sinned became confirmed in unholiness. Those Angels that did not sin were immediately confirmed in their holiness and no longer have any capacity to sin.

Same as Adam. Adam was confirmed in unholiness but God promised a redeemer

Totton Linnet
November 1st, 2015, 01:08 PM
There was rebellion and war in heaven.

"And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels and prevailed not; neither was there place found any more in heaven and the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the devil and Satan, which deceives the whole world; he was cast out into the earth and his angels were cast out with him" Revelation 12:7-9.

Anyone or anything that can rebel or sin against God has a free will.

Humans are higher in authority than angels. We will even judge angels, 1 Corinthians 6:3.

This is what may have caused the rebellion in heaven. The word got out that God was going to create humans that would be greater than angels and would judge angels.

I can't see where there is anything on this earth that lives and breathes and does not have a free will. I live in the country. We have bears, deer, racoons, foxes, etc, that are all doing their own thing. Nothing is programed to act or to do a certain thing. Some times these animals even interact with each other.

There is a lot of randomness in nature. We never know what to expect. Sometimes it snows in October. Sometimes it snows in November. Last year it didn't snow until December. There is no set pattern to anything, nothing is programed to act in a certain way.

The ability to choose is not freewill....the One who determines the consequences of the choice, HE has free sovereign will.

intojoy
November 1st, 2015, 01:33 PM
Basic
The fall effectively condemned man's will to choose only against God's ways. If God had not intervene then none would be saved.

Totton Linnet
November 1st, 2015, 01:41 PM
He can choose but the ability to perform he has not.

dialm
November 1st, 2015, 02:25 PM
Not in your choir, and definitely not to your concept of God.

We got the Angels trapped in this choir.

Are you better then they are?

dialm
November 1st, 2015, 03:43 PM
musterion

Yes you are better than the Angels.

It is foolish to say that we will judge Angels if they haven't at the very least been accused of something. So if we are going to judge them-

On what grounds?

dialm
November 1st, 2015, 03:44 PM
If Pate wants something then let him give the grounds for our judging the Angels.

intojoy
November 1st, 2015, 03:49 PM
He can choose but the ability to perform he has not.

No, can not choose.
There is none that seeks after Him not even one

6days
November 1st, 2015, 04:27 PM
Angels were created in a state of unconfirmed holiness with the ability to choose against their nature. They were holy but made an unholy choice thus those that sinned became confirmed in unholiness. Those Angels that did not sin were immediately confirmed in their holiness and no longer have any capacity to sin.

Same as Adam. Adam was confirmed in unholiness but God promised a redeemer

Great answer!

Robert Pate
November 1st, 2015, 04:29 PM
musterion

Yes you are better than the Angels.

It is foolish to say that we will judge Angels if they haven't at the very least been accused of something. So if we are going to judge them-

On what grounds?


Paul said that we (Christians) will judge angels, 1 Corinthians 6:3.

Maybe you should take it up with him.

intojoy
November 1st, 2015, 04:32 PM
Great answer!

Ariel.org

Robert Pate
November 1st, 2015, 04:38 PM
Angels were created in a state of unconfirmed holiness with the ability to choose against their nature. They were holy but made an unholy choice thus those that sinned became confirmed in unholiness. Those Angels that did not sin were immediately confirmed in their holiness and no longer have any capacity to sin.

Same as Adam. Adam was confirmed in unholiness but God promised a redeemer


The Bible says that Satan and his angels will wind up in the lake of fire.

intojoy
November 1st, 2015, 04:48 PM
The Bible says that Satan and his angels will wind up in the lake of fire.

And?

Robert Pate
November 1st, 2015, 04:55 PM
And?

And be destroyed.

jamie
November 1st, 2015, 05:24 PM
And be destroyed.


Does fire destroy spiritual beings?

dialm
November 2nd, 2015, 02:58 AM
Paul said that we (Christians) will judge angels, 1 Corinthians 6:3.

Maybe you should take it up with him.

These are the grounds for judgement?

Your answer is like a turtle dance. The turtle peeps out his shell. Stay in your shell little turtle.

Paul says we are going to judge Angels. He doesn't say we are going to judge demons because they have already been judged. The rest of the Angels are going to take their turn at judgement.

Who is going to represent the Angels when they have to stand before us and be judged?

dialm
November 2nd, 2015, 03:30 AM
Maybe we should explain how judgement works?

We are not going to judge the demons because we are the plaintiffs. The plaintiff does not judge because his point of view is tarnished by what the demons have done to us. God must be the one who judges the demons.

Now God can judge the demons because God sits on a throne higher than the demons could ever reach. If thought of in this respect then God's judgement is true because the demons could never get to the God who sits on the throne. The demons could never tarnish God's judgement.

dialm
November 2nd, 2015, 03:34 AM
Paul says we are going to judge Angels.

We can judge the Angels because we are in Christ. The Angels never did anything to Christ.

So why then are the Angels forced to stand before us and be judged?

dialm
November 2nd, 2015, 04:56 AM
You read it right Pate

The Angels are FORCED to stand before us and be judged by us!

The Angels don't have a choice in the matter. No one is asking them if they want to come before the Christians and be judged.

The Angels are just as much captives of Calvin as you are.

beloved57
November 2nd, 2015, 05:17 AM
Angels in Heaven Have a Free Will

What scripture says that ?

dialm
November 2nd, 2015, 05:49 AM
What scripture says that ?

There is no scripture saying that. And here is one reason why

The Angels have many times killed people. If what Pate is saying is true then the Angels must enjoy all that killing. Otherwise they wouldn't do it.

The only other explanation is Calvinism.

iouae
November 2nd, 2015, 05:59 AM
I don't think we are going to judge the demons, but rather the good ones in heaven as in the judges of ancient Israel judged Israel.

The fallen angels are already judged as damned to be burnt UP in hell (not burn forever in hell). Likewise evil humans will be burnt UP.

beloved57
November 2nd, 2015, 06:09 AM
There is no scripture saying that. And here is one reason why

The Angels have many times killed people. If what Pate is saying is true then the Angels must enjoy all that killing. Otherwise they wouldn't do it.

The only other explanation is Calvinism.

I know its not, there's not even a scripture that says men have freewill, its a myth from men, destitute of the Truth !

dialm
November 2nd, 2015, 07:05 AM
I know its not, there's not even a scripture that says men have freewill, its a myth from men, destitute of the Truth !

Amen to that as long as we are tempered with love in our hearts. A Godly love that only God can give to us.

beloved57
November 2nd, 2015, 07:07 AM
Amen to that as long as we are tempered with love in our hearts. A Godly love that only God can give to us.

Christ has fulfilled the law of love for me! That's part of him obeying the law in my behalf!

iouae
November 2nd, 2015, 07:32 AM
The only other explanation is Calvinism.

That is a good "theory of everything" :)

dialm
November 2nd, 2015, 08:31 AM
Christ has fulfilled the law of love for me! That's part of him obeying the law in my behalf!

True that. And praise God for giving good gifts to us.

dialm
November 2nd, 2015, 08:34 AM
That is a good "theory of everything" :)

John Calvin, filled with the Holy Spirit in keeping with the Reformation has given us great treasure. We are rich in Spirit and in Truth.

Pate ask for an example of Spiritual Power. He just received it. Now he can finish his little turtle dance. I won't harm him.

beloved57
November 2nd, 2015, 08:35 AM
True that. And praise God for giving good gifts to us.

I don't understand that comment! Did you understand mine?

Robert Pate
November 2nd, 2015, 08:55 AM
John Calvin, filled with the Holy Spirit in keeping with the Reformation has given us great treasure. We are rich in Spirit and in Truth.

Pate ask for an example of Spiritual Power. He just received it. Now he can finish his little turtle dance. I won't harm him.


Anyone that teachs God predestinates people to eternal damnation does not have the Holy Spirit.

Anyone that teaches that God does not love all of humanity, John 3:16 and that Jesus is not the savior of the world, is a heretic, 1 John 2:2.

beloved57
November 2nd, 2015, 09:32 AM
Anyone that teachs God predestinates people to eternal damnation does not have the Holy Spirit.

Anyone that teaches that God does not love all of humanity, John 3:16 and that Jesus is not the savior of the world, is a heretic, 1 John 2:2.

You teach that millions upon millions for whom Christ lived and died shall wind up in Hell lost in their sins in unbelief! That's calling Him a failure as a Savior!

Robert Pate
November 2nd, 2015, 01:34 PM
You teach that millions upon millions for whom Christ lived and died shall wind up in Hell lost in their sins in unbelief! That's calling Him a failure as a Savior!

The Bible plainly teaches that Jesus has defeated sin, death and the devil so that now... "Whosoever that shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved" Romans 10:13.

beloved57
November 2nd, 2015, 01:44 PM
The Bible plainly teaches that Jesus has defeated sin, death and the devil so that now... "Whosoever that shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved" Romans 10:13.

You dont believe or understand that verse. Plus you teach that Millions Upon Millions Christ shed His Blood for Perish in Hell for their sins, That makes His Blood worthless to save !

Robert Pate
November 2nd, 2015, 02:02 PM
You dont believe or understand that verse. Plus you teach that Millions Upon Millions Christ shed His Blood for Perish in Hell for their sins, That makes His Blood worthless to save !

You are a false accuser and a denier of the Gospel that justifies the ungodly Romans 4:5 and reconciles the world unto God, 2 Corinthians 5:19, making yourself a heretic.

Ktoyou
November 2nd, 2015, 02:05 PM
Do tigers have free will?

beloved57
November 2nd, 2015, 05:00 PM
You are a false accuser and a denier of the Gospel that justifies the ungodly Romans 4:5 and reconciles the world unto God, 2 Corinthians 5:19, making yourself a heretic.

You can quote scripture till doomsday, you don't believe a word of it! You teach that millions upon millions for whom Christ died and reconciled to God, put away their sins, shall nevertheless die in their sins in unbelief !That's a disgrace to Jesus Christ!

Bright Raven
November 2nd, 2015, 05:12 PM
You can quote scripture till doomsday, you don't believe a word of it! You teach that millions upon millions for whom Christ died and reconciled to God, put away their sins, shall nevertheless die in their sins in unbelief !That's a disgrace to Jesus Christ!
And you do not believe Romans 3:22

Romans 3:22 New Living Translation (NLT)

22 We are made right with God by placing our faith in Jesus Christ. And this is true for everyone who believes, no matter who we are.

Grosnick Marowbe
November 2nd, 2015, 05:33 PM
We got the Angels trapped in this choir.

Are you better then they are?

I think you should change your position to "Other" rather than Christian. Just my personal opinion.

Grosnick Marowbe
November 2nd, 2015, 05:35 PM
You can quote scripture till doomsday, you don't believe a word of it! You teach that millions upon millions for whom Christ died and reconciled to God, put away their sins, shall nevertheless die in their sins in unbelief !That's a disgrace to Jesus Christ!

Why should anybody listen to you? You're a "hyper-Calvinist." You
believe that God creates ALL sin. Your belief sure gives us humans
a break huh?

Robert Pate
November 3rd, 2015, 08:32 AM
If it can sin and rebel against God, it has a free will.

If it can't sin and rebel against God then its a robot.

Brother Ducky
November 3rd, 2015, 08:45 AM
Do you have the free-will ability to choose not to rebel against God?

beloved57
November 3rd, 2015, 08:54 AM
If it can sin and rebel against God, it has a free will.

If it can't sin and rebel against God then its a robot.

Those Christ died for are reconciled to God by His Death while they are enemies in unbelief and rebellious Rom 5:10!

Robert Pate
November 3rd, 2015, 09:02 AM
Those Christ died for are reconciled to God by His Death while they are enemies in unbelief and rebellious Rom 5:10!

That is what you want to believe because you are an enemy of God and hate his Son Jesus Christ.

beloved57
November 3rd, 2015, 09:05 AM
That is what you want to believe because you are an enemy of God and hate his Son Jesus Christ.

I believe what the scripture states, you dont ! Those Christ died for were reconciled to God while they were enemies Rom 5:10 Duh !

Robert Pate
November 3rd, 2015, 09:07 AM
I believe what the scripture states, you dont ! Those Christ died for were reconciled to God while they were enemies Rom 5:10 Duh !

That is what you are hoping because you are God's enemy. You hate his Son Jesus Christ.

intojoy
November 3rd, 2015, 08:48 PM
Do tigers have free will?

Yes

iouae
November 3rd, 2015, 10:00 PM
Rom

6 For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.

7 For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die.

8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

11 And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.

Christ came to die for all. So while we were sinners He died for us.
But it was conditional upon belief in Him for the benefits to apply.

No scripture can be read in isolation.

And yes, tigers do have free will.
And because almost all creatures have free will, it creates infinite number of permutations of possible futures as all these free-will creatures interact with each others. That is just maths. This is one reason why it is impossible to tell the future.

beloved57
November 5th, 2015, 04:39 AM
That is what you are hoping because you are God's enemy. You hate his Son Jesus Christ.

That is you, 150% ,you hate the Gospel, the True God and Jesus Christ!

Robert Pate
November 5th, 2015, 09:16 AM
If the angels in heaven have a free will, then we humans also have a free will.

John Calvin was a liar and a heretic.

beloved57
November 5th, 2015, 10:46 AM
If the angels in heaven have a free will, then we humans also have a free will.

John Calvin was a liar and a heretic.

You calling Calvinism a Lie ? Why thats the Gospel of Gods Grace, so you are calling God a Lie, woe unto you !

Robert Pate
November 5th, 2015, 01:51 PM
You calling Calvinism a Lie ? Why thats the Gospel of Gods Grace, so you are calling God a Lie, woe unto you !

You have got to be on drugs or something.

beloved57
November 5th, 2015, 02:51 PM
You have got to be on drugs or something.

As long as you reject Calvinism, you reject the True Gospel!

Nanja
November 5th, 2015, 03:38 PM
You calling Calvinism a Lie ? Why thats the Gospel of Gods Grace, so you are calling God a Lie, woe unto you !

Absolutely Calvinism is the Gospel of God's Grace! Woe unto him!

Jude 1:4
For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men,
turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.

~~~~~

Ask Mr. Religion
November 5th, 2015, 03:46 PM
The elect angels in heaven, just as those from humanity in heaven now or later, will have no ability to do otherwise than worship eternally in the presence of the Lord. Similarly, those in Hell, reprobate angels and humans alike, will never possess the ability to repent, for if they did and repented, they would happily agree with their destination. The gnashing of teeth in Hell is not some expression of pain or regret, but the ever present fist raised Godward in rebellion.

So much for libertarian free will.

AMR

beloved57
November 5th, 2015, 04:08 PM
Absolutely Calvinism is the Gospel of God's Grace! Woe unto him!

Jude 1:4
For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men,
turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.

~~~~~

Yeah, false christians think because the Gospel is now being labeled Calvinism, that it justifies their unbelief of it and minimizing of it to just another opinion of man! Woe unto them!

Robert Pate
November 5th, 2015, 04:25 PM
The elect angels in heaven, just as those from humanity in heaven now or later, will have no ability to do otherwise than worship eternally in the presence of the Lord. Similarly, those in Hell, reprobate angels and humans alike, will never possess the ability to repent, for if they did and repented, they would happily agree with their destination. The gnashing of teeth in Hell is not some expression of pain or regret, but the ever present fist raised Godward in rebellion.

So much for libertarian free will.

AMR


The angels in heaven had a free will. They chose to rebel and sin against God.

Anything that has the ability to sin or rebel against God has a free will. God does not create robots or puppets as you want to believe.

Nanja
November 5th, 2015, 04:34 PM
Yeah, false christians think because the Gospel is now being labeled Calvinism, that it justifies their unbelief of it and minimizing of it to just another opinion of man! Woe unto them!

Exactly right.

Woe unto them!

~~~~~

Robert Pate
November 5th, 2015, 04:39 PM
Exactly right.

Woe unto them!

~~~~~

Where is the word "Calvinism" in the Bible?

Nanja
November 5th, 2015, 04:46 PM
Where is the word "Calvinism" in the Bible?

Stupid question :Plain:

~~~~~

beloved57
November 5th, 2015, 04:59 PM
Where is the word "Calvinism" in the Bible?

It doesn't matter about that, it is taught in the bible like the Trinity is, where is the Word Trinity in the bible?

alwight
November 5th, 2015, 05:01 PM
The elect angels in heaven, just as those from humanity in heaven now or later, will have no ability to do otherwise than worship eternally in the presence of the Lord. Similarly, those in Hell, reprobate angels and humans alike, will never possess the ability to repent, for if they did and repented, they would happily agree with their destination. The gnashing of teeth in Hell is not some expression of pain or regret, but the ever present fist raised Godward in rebellion.

So much for libertarian free will.

AMRYou apparently don't find that an eternity of wailing and gnashing of teeth to be just a little bit excessive for whatever transgressions are made in one very brief lifetime?
Perhaps Christians should never have any children lest any thus created suffer your claimed fate far worse than death?
Could Christian parents really live a blissful eternity in Heaven knowing that they created an eternal misery?

Robert Pate
November 5th, 2015, 05:06 PM
Stupid question :Plain:

~~~~~

Wakeup! You are in some sort of a stupor.

There is nothing in the Bible about Calvinism, nor was John Calvin an apostle.

You set aside the words of the apostles and embrace the words of a heretic. Wakeup!

beloved57
November 5th, 2015, 05:21 PM
Wakeup! You are in some sort of a stupor.

There is nothing in the Bible about Calvinism, nor was John Calvin an apostle.

You set aside the words of the apostles and embrace the words of a heretic. Wakeup!

Calvinism is the Gospel!

Robert Pate
November 5th, 2015, 05:36 PM
It doesn't matter about that, it is taught in the bible like the Trinity is, where is the Word Trinity in the bible?

Try 1 John 5:7. It plainly teaches a trinity.

But there is nothing in the Bible that teaches Calvinism.

There is so much scripture that opposes your doctrine.

Shall I list all of them? There are dozens and dozens.

Nanja
November 5th, 2015, 06:34 PM
Try 1 John 5:7. It plainly teaches a trinity.

But there is nothing in the Bible that teaches Calvinism.

There is so much scripture that opposes your doctrine.

Shall I list all of them? There are dozens and dozens.


Forget it! Your mind is blinded by the devil 2Cor. 4:3-4, so you have no ability to rightly divide the word of Truth!

~~~~~

beloved57
November 5th, 2015, 06:35 PM
Try 1 John 5:7. It plainly teaches a trinity.

But there is nothing in the Bible that teaches Calvinism.

There is so much scripture that opposes your doctrine.

Shall I list all of them? There are dozens and dozens.

Show me the word trinity in a bible concordance!

ttruscott
November 6th, 2015, 01:12 PM
...
Anyone or anything that can rebel or sin against God has a free will.

I agree. Evil proves free will or GOD creates us to do evil and we are not guilty.


Humans are higher in authority than angels. We will even judge angels, 1 Corinthians 6:3.

Before anyone puff up too much over this, as sinners we humans are not so special as to be higher and able to judge the holy angels who have never sinned due to their free will decision to be holy...we will only judge the Satanic and demonic angels, brought lower than us by not repenting while our repentance has raised us up one rung above their evil.

Ask Mr. Religion
November 6th, 2015, 02:40 PM
The angels in heaven had a free will. They chose to rebel and sin against God.

Anything that has the ability to sin or rebel against God has a free will. God does not create robots or puppets as you want to believe.

Your "had free will" is key here, Robert. All angels when created possessed free will. The one-third or so failed their probationary period and are irrevocably damned. Unlike mankind, there is no redemptive plan for these angels (See 2 Peter 2:4 and Jude 6).

Just as Adam "had free will" before falling and plunging all his progeny into sin. Original sin both as corruption stemming from our first father (Adam) and as an imputation of Adam's sin. Imputation means to "count as" or "to be reckoned as." So this view of original sin would say that Adam's sin is counted against us as if we had done it ourselves. The guilt of Adam's sin is counted as our own guilt, and we can be punished for it.

The unbeliever can only sin more or sin less and possesses no ability to do otherwise until God replaces their heart of stone with one of flesh. So yes, one may say, the unbeliever has free will, if one understands free will to mean choosing according to one's greatest inclinations at the moment one so chooses.

AMR

ttruscott
November 6th, 2015, 05:36 PM
Your "had free will" is key here, Robert. All angels when created possessed free will. The one-third or so failed their probationary period and are irrevocably damned. Unlike mankind, there is no redemptive plan for these angels. ...

Since as per Matthew 25:31-46 the goats are people who are sent to the fire prepared for Satan and his (demonic) angels, suggesting the goats are demons in human bodies. In large numbers. Goats don't share the fire prepared for Satan and his angels, it is prepared for them as demons embodied as human.

Non-elect sinners of any stripe (human or not in a human body) are condemned already.

beloved57
November 6th, 2015, 08:21 PM
I agree. Evil proves free will or GOD creates us to do evil and we are not guilty.



Before anyone puff up too much over this, as sinners we humans are not so special as to be higher and able to judge the holy angels who have never sinned due to their free will decision to be holy...we will only judge the Satanic and demonic angels, brought lower than us by not repenting while our repentance has raised us up one rung above their evil.

My God created men to do evil and then hold them accountable for it! They had no choice in the matter!

Robert Pate
November 8th, 2015, 01:45 PM
Your "had free will" is key here, Robert. All angels when created possessed free will. The one-third or so failed their probationary period and are irrevocably damned. Unlike mankind, there is no redemptive plan for these angels.

Just as Adam "had free will" before falling and plunging all his progeny into sin. Original sin both as corruption stemming from our first father (Adam) and as an imputation of Adam's sin. Imputation means to "count as" or "to be reckoned as." So this view of original sin would say that Adam's sin is counted against us as if we had done it ourselves. The guilt of Adam's sin is counted as our own guilt, and we can be punished for it.

The unbeliever can only sin more or sin less and possesses no ability to do otherwise until God replaces their heart of stone with one of flesh. So yes, one may say, the unbeliever has free will, if one understands free will to mean choosing according to one's greatest inclinations at the moment one so chooses.

AMR

The angels in heaven still have a free will. They are the ones that chose not to rebel against God.

The Bible knows nothing of anyone receiving the Holy Spirit without hearing and believing the Gospel. God does not zap people with the Spirit. You have to hear and believe.

"So then faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God" Romans 10:17, Which is the Gospel.

disturbo
November 8th, 2015, 02:10 PM
My God created men to do evil and then hold them accountable for it! They had no choice in the matter!

I would prefer to say that God created the propensity for evil.

Here's a hyper-theoretical question for you.

1. Do you think we are the only planet in the entire 'solar system' that has people on it?

2. Do you think that we are the only planet in the entire 'galaxy' that has people on it?

3. Do you think we are the only planet in the 'universe' that has people on it?

If YES to any above...

1. Do you think that any other planet inhabited with 'creatures' that God has made are human or just like us?

2. Do you think that another planet with 'people' on it may NOT have fallen?

beloved57
November 8th, 2015, 04:04 PM
I would prefer to say that God created the propensity for evil.

Here's a hyper-theoretical question for you.

1. Do you think we are the only planet in the entire 'solar system' that has people on it?

2. Do you think that we are the only planet in the entire 'galaxy' that has people on it?

3. Do you think we are the only planet in the 'universe' that has people on it?

If YES to any above...

1. Do you think that any other planet inhabited with 'creatures' that God has made are human or just like us?

2. Do you think that another planet with 'people' on it may NOT have fallen?

God Created Evil,that is where the propensity comes from also!

beloved57
November 8th, 2015, 04:08 PM
The angels in heaven still have a free will. They are the ones that chose not to rebel against God.

The Bible knows nothing of anyone receiving the Holy Spirit without hearing and believing the Gospel. God does not zap people with the Spirit. You have to hear and believe.

"So then faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God" Romans 10:17, Which is the Gospel.

Invalid comment not supported by scripture!

disturbo
November 8th, 2015, 04:23 PM
Invalid comment not supported by scripture!

Invalid? Now that's impressive!

Angels have personalities, emotions, and intelligence. They are called 'holy angels'. Angels that didn't fall are called 'elect' just as CHRISTIANS are. But that doesn’t mean that angels have lost their free will.
Jesus had free will and he too could have eaten of the forbidden fruit!

beloved57
November 8th, 2015, 04:24 PM
Invalid? Now that's impressive!

Angels have personalities, emotions, and intelligence. They are called 'holy angels'. Angels that didn't fall are called 'elect' just as CHRISTIANS are. But that doesn’t mean that angels have lost their free will.

Yeah!

disturbo
November 8th, 2015, 04:54 PM
God Created Evil,that is where the propensity comes from also!

I would word it like this...

God created man and his free will, and that's where the propensity for evil comes from.

beloved57
November 8th, 2015, 04:55 PM
I would word it like this...

God created man and his free will, and that's where the propensity comes from.

Invalid comment!

disturbo
November 8th, 2015, 05:41 PM
Invalid comment!

Are you here to contribute or just here to make derogatory comments!

The only reason you disagree is because you can't admit you're WRONG!

beloved57
November 8th, 2015, 06:08 PM
Are you here to contribute or just here to make derogatory comments!

The only reason you disagree is because you can't admit you're WRONG!

You making invalid comments!

disturbo
November 8th, 2015, 06:12 PM
You making invalid comments!

I would say that you are invalid simply out of your ignorance!