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republicanchick
October 30th, 2015, 01:58 PM
Seventh Day Adventists don't like Catholics or the unborn

I have discussed theology with them b4, and it is unbelievable how much they HATE Catholicism (if not Catholics). they are closed-minded to what the Church has to say or teach.

Also, they believe REALLY weird things about end times.. that the RC Church is the anti-Christ (Hey, some of the people in the RCC are definitely anti-Christ... but that doesn't mean...)

They (SDAs) also don't like the unborn. They teach that abortion is acceptable in some situations. Really? Murder is OK in certain situations??

Right..

As Ronald Reagan said:

That's easy for them to say, they are already born


Stand up for the unborn: Refuse to vote for Carson...

vote for

Cruz
or Huckabee

(I think Rubio voted for amnesty...)


+++

Cruciform
October 30th, 2015, 02:01 PM
"Seventh-Day Adventism" (http://www.catholic.com/tracts/seventh-day-adventism)

Wick Stick
October 30th, 2015, 02:16 PM
Well, their theology demands that the Pope is the antichrist and the RCC is the beast of Revelation.

So, yeah... they probably aren't too anxious to cooperate with you.

Jarrod

republicanchick
October 30th, 2015, 02:34 PM
Well, their theology demands that the Pope is the antichrist and the RCC is the beast of Revelation.

So, yeah... they probably aren't too anxious to cooperate with you.

Jarrod

I think they are antichrist

Wick Stick
October 30th, 2015, 02:38 PM
I think they are antichrist
If you want to know about someone, forget what they say, and watch what they do.

They appear to be legitimate Christians to me, based on what I see them DO. They are a bit excitable in my experience.

Jarrod

popsthebuilder
November 1st, 2015, 11:26 PM
Ancient Roman Catholic founders where involved in atrocities of many sorts. To this day they have intentionally lead many astray. This has little to do with the generally strong Faith of Catholic followers. Actually, from what I have read, the current pope seems to be trying to set things straight as best he can. Ancient Roman Ctholisism can be traced to the two headed beast. That in no way damns any follower though. To be of the truly faithful under God and wholly giving without wanting in return with sacrifice of sin from self based on scripture and conscience through truth with self any can followers of Christ under God.

I had one meeting with Seventh Day Adventist. They were knowledgeable and well spoken, if a little closed to the outside. They seemed genuine in their Faith. The fact that they understand that the seventh day of our week is Saturday and observe the Sabbath on that day says something for there strong Faith and as such most likely their adhearance. I want to make it back to that service.

brewmama
November 1st, 2015, 11:37 PM
Ancient Roman Catholic founders where involved in atrocities of many sorts. To this day they have intentionally lead many astray. This has little to do with the generally strong Faith of Catholic followers. Actually, from what I have read, the current pope seems to be trying to set things straight as best he can. Ancient Roman Ctholisism can be traced to the two headed beast. That in no way damns any follower though. To be of the truly faithful under God and wholly giving without wanting in return with sacrifice of sin from self based on scripture and conscience through truth with self any can followers of Christ under God.



Wow, I'm amazed at the anti-Catholic vitriol that pops up on this site. It is pretty much never factual and quite abusive and hateful. Please, please educate yourself. (This is not directed only at you) :(

keypurr
November 1st, 2015, 11:42 PM
Ancient Roman Catholic founders where involved in atrocities of many sorts. To this day they have intentionally lead many astray. This has little to do with the generally strong Faith of Catholic followers. Actually, from what I have read, the current pope seems to be trying to set things straight as best he can. Ancient Roman Ctholisism can be traced to the two headed beast. That in no way damns any follower though. To be of the truly faithful under God and wholly giving without wanting in return with sacrifice of sin from self based on scripture and conscience through truth with self any can followers of Christ under God.

I had one meeting with Seventh Day Adventist. They were knowledgeable and well spoken, if a little closed to the outside. They seemed genuine in their Faith. The fact that they understand that the seventh day of our week is Saturday and observe the Sabbath on that day says something for there strong Faith and as such most likely their adhearance. I want to make it back to that service.


I agree that they seem to be nice people. They are the ones who brought me to God when the Baptist church could not display a steady light of truth. They jump started me on to many years of study. But I have studies many "Christian" churches and found all in need of truth.

The RCC has done a great job of changing the meaning of the scriptures to bring into the church many pagan ideas. Sunday worship is just one of them.

Sad, but true.

keypurr
November 1st, 2015, 11:46 PM
Wow, I'm amazed at the anti-Catholic vitriol that pops up on this site. It is pretty much never factual and quite abusive and hateful. Please, please educate yourself. (This is not directed only at you) :(

You have a lot to learn friend. Start with history. I have no hate for any one but the RCC has done more to distort the truth than any one.

brewmama
November 1st, 2015, 11:46 PM
I agree that they seem to be nice people. They are the ones who brought me to God when the Baptist church could not display a steady light of truth. They jump started me on to many years of study. But I have studies many "Christian" churches and found all in need of truth.

The RCC has done a great job of changing the meaning of the scriptures to bring into the church many pagan ideas. Sunday worship is just one of them.

Sad, but true.

No, it is not true. The early Jewish Christians continued to go to synagogue on Saturday, but always held their communion service on Sunday.

brewmama
November 1st, 2015, 11:47 PM
You have a lot to learn friend. Start with history. I have no hate for any one but the RCC has done more to distort the truth than any one.


What makes you think I don't know history? Judging from your post about Sat. worship, you are the one that does not know history.

keypurr
November 2nd, 2015, 12:14 AM
What makes you think I don't know history? Judging from your post about Sat. worship, you are the one that does not know history.

You do not seem to know about Church history or how it came to power. you do not seem to know when Sunday worship came into the Christian religion either. Friend, I am History, I have studies the scriptures for over seventy years. Christ and his Apostles NEVER supported Sunday worship or a three piece God.

Open your mind to what could be, not what you have been told.

keypurr
November 2nd, 2015, 12:17 AM
No, it is not true. The early Jewish Christians continued to go to synagogue on Saturday, but always held their communion service on Sunday.

Show me in scripture.

Remember the day starts at sundown.

Cruciform
November 2nd, 2015, 12:24 AM
I had one meeting with Seventh Day Adventist... I want to make it back to that service.
See Post #2 above.

OCTOBER23
November 2nd, 2015, 12:26 AM
Republichick

EVERYONE IN THE WHOLE WORLD THINKS THAT THE CATHOLIC CHURCH

IS RUN BY THE DEVIL BECAUSE LUCREZIA BORGIA'S DAD

WAS AN ADULTEROUS POPE JUST LIKE MANY OF THE OTHER POPES.

If you want to find out who the Anti-christ is just look at the Fruits of the Catholic Church.

Pope Alexander VI, born Roderic Llanēol i de Borja (Valencian Spanish: Rodrigo Lanzol y de Borja 1 January 1431 – 18 August 1503), was Pope from 11 August 1492 until his death. He is one of the most controversial of the Renaissance popes, partly because he acknowledged fathering several children by his mistresses.

popsthebuilder
November 2nd, 2015, 02:11 AM
See Post #2 above.
Not too interested and n links. Thanks though.

iouae
November 2nd, 2015, 05:47 AM
The SDA's are nice folk, who don't get out much, so there will not be too many of them on a forum such as this. They are serious about righteous living, helping through medicine and education, evangelism etc. They are over zealous on foods, and especially alcohol avoidance.

They suck at prophecy, yet boast of their founder having had the "spirit of prophecy". They are wrong on the Catholics, and their belief that Sunday worship is the mark of the Beast.

Yet many are quite happy to consider Sunday keepers as true believers (Sunday keepers keep nothing like their Sabbath as a rule - they go to church on Sunday).

Brother Vinny
November 2nd, 2015, 06:12 AM
On the OP: Cruz and Huckabee don't stand a snowball's chance, at this point. The farce that is the Trump candidacy is still pulling large numbers, and if/when that falls apart, its backers are going to rally around the only other candidate who isn't a career politician and speaks his mind, which happens to be Carson (who is neck-in-neck with Trump at times in the polls).

On the SDA: I had the dubious pleasure of being among them for some time. Sure, they're nice people, but they are legalist to an extreme I found disconcerting, extending to matters of diet beyond mere keeping of the Mosaic Law (they are almost to a one vegetarian, as far as I can tell), as well as to matters the Bible doesn't speak on, e.g., musicology (they shun rock music, which to me is a dead giveaway something's wrong with them).

On keypurr: Do you happen to be WWCOG or one of its offshoots?

iouae
November 2nd, 2015, 06:31 AM
On the OP: Cruz and Huckabee don't stand a snowball's chance, at this point. The farce that is the Trump candidacy is still pulling large numbers, and if/when that falls apart, its backers are going to rally around the only other candidate who isn't a career politician and speaks his mind, which happens to be Carson (who is neck-in-neck with Trump at times in the polls).

On the SDA: I had the dubious pleasure of being among them for some time. Sure, they're nice people, but they are legalist to an extreme I found disconcerting, extending to matters of diet beyond mere keeping of the Mosaic Law (they are almost to a one vegetarian, as far as I can tell), as well as to matters the Bible doesn't speak on, e.g., musicology (they shun rock music, which to me is a dead giveaway something's wrong with them).

On keypurr: Do you happen to be WWCOG or one of its offshoots?

One thing that WWCOG and the SDA's have in common is a fixation with "watching" world news through a prophetic lens. And both suck equally at it.

Brother Vinny
November 2nd, 2015, 07:21 AM
One thing that WWCOG and the SDA's have in common is a fixation with "watching" world news through a prophetic lens. And both suck equally at it.

Another: Sabbath-keeping as a test of true worship ( although each would exclude the other from fellowship, I believe).

popsthebuilder
November 2nd, 2015, 08:05 AM
Another: Sabbath-keeping as a test of true worship ( although each would exclude the other from fellowship, I believe).
Exclusion of any faithful group or individual from the church of any sort is wrong in my opinion.

Rusha
November 2nd, 2015, 08:46 AM
Seventh Day Adventists don't like Catholics or the unborn

I have discussed theology with them b4, and it is unbelievable how much they HATE Catholicism (if not Catholics). they are closed-minded to what the Church has to say or teach.

You hurl claims of hatred towards anyone who dares disagree with you.

Insofar as being a SDA, big :thumb: for him.

iouae
November 2nd, 2015, 12:02 PM
Another: Sabbath-keeping as a test of true worship ( although each would exclude the other from fellowship, I believe).

Yes. Watch any of their broadcasts and see how often they emphasise "keeping the commandments" - meaning the Sabbath. It's like a great warm comfort blanket.

But there are 1050 other commandments in the NT which non-Sabbath keeping churches may be keeping better than them.

brewmama
November 2nd, 2015, 01:49 PM
Show me in scripture.

Remember the day starts at sundown.

Acts 20:7
And upon the first day of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread, Paul preached unto them, ready to depart on the morrow; and continued his speech until midnight.


"Now concerning the collection for the saints, as I directed the churches of Galatia, so do you also. On the first day of every week let each one of you put aside and save, as he may prosper, that no collections be made when I come." (1 Cor 16:1-2)

brewmama
November 2nd, 2015, 01:54 PM
You do not seem to know about Church history or how it came to power. you do not seem to know when Sunday worship came into the Christian religion either. Friend, I am History, I have studies the scriptures for over seventy years. Christ and his Apostles NEVER supported Sunday worship or a three piece God.

Open your mind to what could be, not what you have been told.

Studying the Scriptures is admirable, but it is certainly not studying Church history. I am a member of the Church that was founded by the Apostles, and where followers were first called Christians. There are churches founded by Paul that are still there today. Perhaps you should actually study Church history rather than whatever it is you think is history.

Are you saying you don't believe in the Trinity either?? Oy vey! :shocked:

brewmama
November 2nd, 2015, 01:58 PM
Exclusion of any faithful group or individual from the church of any sort is wrong in my opinion.

Yet you do it to Catholics?

jamie
November 2nd, 2015, 03:16 PM
But there are 1050 other commandments in the NT which non-Sabbath keeping churches may be keeping better than them.


How many of the other 1050 commandments did God write with his own finger?

jamie
November 2nd, 2015, 03:20 PM
Acts 20:7
And upon the first day of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread, Paul preached unto them, ready to depart on the morrow; and continued his speech until midnight.


But we sailed away from Philippi after the Days of Unleavened Bread and in five days joined them at Troas where we stayed seven days. Now on the first day of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread, Paul, ready to depart the next day, spoke to them and continued his message until midnight. (Acts 20:6-7)

I have seen people try to use Acts 20:7 to establish Sunday observance, but does it really? It seems they often fail to mention the preceding verse about the Days of Unleavened Bread.

The Days of Unleavened Bread occur annually from Nisan 15 through Nisan 21. During this seven day period there are normally three Sabbaths, two annual Sabbaths and the weekly Sabbath. Occasionally one of the annual Sabbaths will coincide with the weekly Sabbath and there will only be two Sabbaths during Unleavened Bread.

Paul stayed at Troas seven days which would be Monday through Sunday. Luke does not tell us whether Paul spoke at the synagogue on the Sabbath but he does say that when the people broke bread that evening (the beginning of Sunday) he spoke until daybreak Sunday morning.

Paul evidently had a lot to say to the people of Troas and he wanted to get it in before the people continued their harvest the next day and Paul moved on. Paul wanted to be in Jerusalem for Pentecost.

There is nothing about Paul's all night speaking that established a precedent for Sunday observance. If anything it establishes the observance of Unleavened Bread. Too bad that is usually skipped over.

brewmama
November 2nd, 2015, 03:27 PM
But we sailed away from Philippi after the Days of Unleavened Bread and in five days joined them at Troas where we stayed seven days. Now on the first day of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread, Paul, ready to depart the next day, spoke to them and continued his message until midnight. (Acts 20:6-7)

I have seen people try to use Acts 20:7 to establish Sunday observance, but does it really? It seems they often fail to mention the preceding verse about the Days of Unleavened Bread.

The Days of Unleavened Bread occur annually from Nisan 15 through Nisan 21. During this seven day period there are normally three Sabbaths, two annual Sabbaths and the weekly Sabbath. Occasionally one of the annual Sabbaths will coincide with the weekly Sabbath and there will only be two Sabbaths during Unleavened Bread.

Paul stayed at Troas seven days which would be Monday through Sunday. Luke does not tell us whether Paul spoke at the synagogue on the Sabbath but he does say that when the people broke bread that evening (the beginning of Sunday) he spoke until daybreak Sunday morning.

Paul evidently had a lot to say to the people of Troas and he wanted to get it in before the people continued their harvest the next day and Paul moved on. Paul wanted to be in Jerusalem for Pentecost.

There is nothing about Paul's all night speaking that established a precedent for Sunday observance. If anything it establishes the observance of Unleavened Bread. Too bad that is usually skipped over.

Please show your evidence that Paul celebrated communion on the 7th day of the week there.
I see your little trick of saying that they met Sat evening, when there is no evidence of that.

I did not realize that this forum is for wacky untraditional doctrines, and don't really want to get bogged down arguing about such modern unsupported fallacies.

Cruciform
November 2nd, 2015, 03:34 PM
Not too interested and n links. Thanks though.
Are you interested in factual information?

jamie
November 2nd, 2015, 03:39 PM
Please show your evidence that Paul celebrated communion on the 7th day of the week there.
I see your little trick of saying that they met Sat evening, when there is no evidence of that.



Now when they had passed through Amphipolis and Apollonia, they came to Thessalonica where there was a synagogue of the Jews. Then Paul, as his custom was, went in to them and for three Sabbaths reasoned with them from the Scriptures... (Acts 17:1-2 NKJV)

What was Paul's custom?

Brother Vinny
November 2nd, 2015, 05:37 PM
What was Paul's custom?

Not allowing others to judge according to sabbaths? Eating whatever was set before him?

Bright Raven
November 2nd, 2015, 05:40 PM
What's your point RC? Look who's leadership this nation has been under for the past eight years.

Brother Vinny
November 2nd, 2015, 05:48 PM
What's your point RC? Look who's leadership this nation has been under for the past eight years.

You in the right thread?

Bright Raven
November 2nd, 2015, 05:51 PM
You in the right thread?
You figure it out. She whines about Ben Carson and his beliefs. Guess she is satisfied with whom she is following now?

brewmama
November 2nd, 2015, 05:59 PM
Now when they had passed through Amphipolis and Apollonia, they came to Thessalonica where there was a synagogue of the Jews. Then Paul, as his custom was, went in to them and for three Sabbaths reasoned with them from the Scriptures... (Acts 17:1-2 NKJV)

What was Paul's custom?

Like I already said, the Apostles and early Jewish Christians went to the synagogues on Sat. to convert people, and met with each other on Sunday for church. How can you think they had church services in synagogues with the Jews who were not supportive of them?

brewmama
November 2nd, 2015, 06:06 PM
You figure it out. She whines about Ben Carson and his beliefs. Guess she is satisfied with whom she is following now?

Makes sense to me. I don't get this conservative antipathy to Carson.

jamie
November 2nd, 2015, 06:33 PM
Like I already said, the Apostles and early Jewish Christians went to the synagogues on Sat. to convert people, and met with each other on Sunday for church. How can you think they had church services in synagogues with the Jews who were not supportive of them?


So when the Jews went out of the synagogue, the Gentiles begged that these words might be preached to them the next Sabbath.

Why didn't Paul tell the Gentiles he would meet with them the next day on Sunday?

brewmama
November 2nd, 2015, 06:36 PM
So when the Jews went out of the synagogue, the Gentiles begged that these words might be preached to them the next Sabbath.

Why didn't Paul tell the Gentiles he would meet with them the next day on Sunday?

Because the church was for believers only. Do you seriously not know this?

popsthebuilder
November 2nd, 2015, 07:46 PM
Are you interested in factual information?
If I want to learn about Seventh Day Adventist then I will attend their church. Of you have an opinion you would like to convey then you could state it. I generally do not open most links. To answer your question; I prefer verification of truth through personal experience rather than the opinions of others. Like to use scripture and my conscience as well.
Thanks though.
Peace.

Cruciform
November 2nd, 2015, 09:43 PM
If I want to learn about Seventh Day Adventist then I will attend their church.
No need, since the information has already been provided to you in Post #2 above.


I generally do not open most links.
Your answer, then, is that you are in fact not interested in factual information. Noted.


To answer your question; I prefer verification of truth through personal experience...
Truth is not a feature of personal experience, but of reason. How you might or might not feel about Adventism, for example, is entirely irrelevant; it holds to and teaches the doctrines it does utterly independently of your sentiments about it or impressions of it.


Like to use scripture and my conscience as well.
"...use scripture" according to whose bindingly authoritative interpretation? Yours? Your pastor's? Your favored recently-invented, man-made non-Catholic sect's?



Gaudium de veritate,

Cruciform
+T+

iouae
November 2nd, 2015, 10:49 PM
How many of the other 1050 commandments did God write with his own finger?

And yet the greatest commandment is to love the LORD with all your heart and soul and mind. The greatest command was not written with God's finger.

Should we dismiss all in the Bible that is not written with God's finger?

jamie
November 2nd, 2015, 11:39 PM
And yet the greatest commandment is to love the LORD with all your heart and soul and mind. The greatest command was not written with God's finger.

Should we dismiss all in the Bible that is not written with God's finger?

Who gets to define the meaning of love, us or God?

If we love God with all of our heart and soul and mind we won't have any other God in place of him, we won't try to capture an image of God with material items, we won't profane God's authority or character (his name) and we will remember our appointment with him on the day he blessed and sanctified.

That's God's definition and expectation of love toward him.

brewmama
November 2nd, 2015, 11:51 PM
Who gets to define the meaning of love, us or God?

If we love God with all of our heart and soul and mind we won't have any other God in place of him, we won't try to capture an image of God with material items, we won't profane God's authority or character (his name) and we will remember our appointment with him on the day he blessed and sanctified.

That's God's definition and expectation of love toward him.

Um, aren't you kind of missing the point?

iouae
November 3rd, 2015, 12:11 AM
Um, aren't you kind of missing the point?

Thank you.

And the point is not to leave the 10 undone, while we are doing the 1050.

The Sabbath is a TOOL to bring us closer to God.

Folks should glory in what they have done with their tools, not glory in their tools.

keypurr
November 3rd, 2015, 12:13 AM
On the OP: Cruz and Huckabee don't stand a snowball's chance, at this point. The farce that is the Trump candidacy is still pulling large numbers, and if/when that falls apart, its backers are going to rally around the only other candidate who isn't a career politician and speaks his mind, which happens to be Carson (who is neck-in-neck with Trump at times in the polls).

On the SDA: I had the dubious pleasure of being among them for some time. Sure, they're nice people, but they are legalist to an extreme I found disconcerting, extending to matters of diet beyond mere keeping of the Mosaic Law (they are almost to a one vegetarian, as far as I can tell), as well as to matters the Bible doesn't speak on, e.g., musicology (they shun rock music, which to me is a dead giveaway something's wrong with them).

On keypurr: Do you happen to be WWCOG or one of its offshoots?

BV I am a Lone Ranger, I do not belong to any church. I have check out quite a few in my lifetime. I was active in the Lutheran church for some time, it was really my wife's church. But I found that most churches are very limited in their doctrines because of lack of scripture.

You will find good sincere folks in any church.

keypurr
November 3rd, 2015, 12:23 AM
Acts 20:7
And upon the first day of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread, Paul preached unto them, ready to depart on the morrow; and continued his speech until midnight.

Act 20:7 And upon the first day of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread, Paul preached unto them, ready to depart on the morrow; and continued his speech until midnight.
Act 20:8 And there were many lights in the upper chamber, where they were gathered together.

Consider that the Apostles always worshiped on the Sabbath as they were Jews. They also see the day starting at sundown. So this verse speaks of the end of their Sabbath meeting lasting until the sun went down and the first day of the week started. Note the lights were on.


"Now concerning the collection for the saints, as I directed the churches of Galatia, so do you also. On the first day of every week let each one of you put aside and save, as he may prosper, that no collections be made when I come." (1 Cor 16:1-2)

This has nothing to do with the day of worship.

We all need to listen and learn, at 80 I am still learning.
Open your mind.

keypurr
November 3rd, 2015, 12:28 AM
Like I already said, the Apostles and early Jewish Christians went to the synagogues on Sat. to convert people, and met with each other on Sunday for church. How can you think they had church services in synagogues with the Jews who were not supportive of them?

I hope your joking friend.

The first Christians were Sabbath keepers.

Sunday worship started creeping into the church in the second century. It was enforced by the Church and State in the fourth. Sunday worship is pagan, so is the Trinity.

OCTOBER23
November 3rd, 2015, 12:37 AM
BREWMASTER said,

The Christians met with each other on Sunday for church.
---------------------------------------------
hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha haha
hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha haha

They were afraid of the JEWISH SANHEDRIN in Jerusalem

and that is why they met together on Sunday.

brewmama
November 3rd, 2015, 11:32 AM
BREWMASTER said,

The Christians met with each other on Sunday for church.
---------------------------------------------
hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha haha
hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha haha

They were afraid of the JEWISH SANHEDRIN in Jerusalem

and that is why they met together on Sunday.

So you agree they met on Sunday?

You guys are out there!

"While Sabbatarians will quote 20th century authors who guess about what happened 1900 years earlier, we quote Christians whose writings are 1900 years old!"

http://www.bible.ca/H-sunday.htm

jamie
November 3rd, 2015, 12:48 PM
Which day of the week is the Lord's day?

rstrats
November 3rd, 2015, 12:48 PM
brewmama,
re: "...the Apostles and early Jewish Christians...met with each other on Sunday for church."

Actually, as far as the Bible is concerned, there are only two times mentioned with regard to anybody getting together on the first (day) of the week - John 20:19 and Acts 20:7. There is never any mention of them ever again being together on the first. The John reference has them together in a closed room after the crucifixion because they were afraid of their fellow Jews. Nothing is said about a celebration, worship service or day of rest. The Acts reference has them together because Paul happened to be in town and he wanted to talk to them before he had to leave again. The breaking of bread mentioned (even if it were referring to the Lord's Supper) had nothing to do with placing a special emphasis on the first (day) because Acts 2:46 says that they broke bread every day.


re: "'Now concerning the collection for the saints, as I directed the churches of Galatia, so do you also. On the first day of every week let each one of you put aside and save, as he may prosper, that no collections be made when I come.' (1 Cor 16:1-2)"


I assume that you're using 1 Corinthians 16:2 to support your notion that NT Christians observed the first day of the week for their day of rest and worship. However, there is nothing in the verse that indicates that. The text merely says that everyone should "lay by him in store" on the first day of the week. The Darby Translation reads: "On the first of the week let each of you put by at home, laying up in whatever degree he may have prospered, that there may be no collections when I come". The New Swedish and Norwegian Bibles read: "At home by himself". The Lamsa Translation reads: "Let each of you put aside and keep in his house"¯. The Wemouth reads: "Let each of you put on one side and store up at his home"¯. Ballantine's Translation reads: "Let each of you lay up at home"¯. The Syriac, on this passage reads: "Let every one of you lay aside and preserve at home"¯. And the New Catholic Edition of the Bible reads: ".......let each one of you put aside at home and lay up whatever he has a mind to"¯. This verse says nothing about going to church for worship on the first day or even assembling together on the first day of the week.

brewmama
November 3rd, 2015, 12:55 PM
Which day of the week is the Lord's day?

Sunday

jamie
November 3rd, 2015, 01:26 PM
Sunday


Matthew, Mark and Luke say that the Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath. (Matthew 12:8, Mark 2:28, Luke 6:5 NKJV)

After all, it was Christ who blessed and sanctified the seventh day as a day of rest.

brewmama
November 3rd, 2015, 01:29 PM
Matthew, Mark and Luke say that the Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath. (Matthew 12:8, Mark 2:28, Luke 6:5 NKJV)

After all, it was Christ who blessed and sanctified the seventh day as a day of rest.

So? What does that have to do with the Lord's Day being Sunday, since it was the Resurrection day?

keypurr
November 3rd, 2015, 01:36 PM
Sunday

Christ said he was Lord of the Sabbath, not Sunday.

You source of information is in error.

keypurr
November 3rd, 2015, 01:41 PM
So? What does that have to do with the Lord's Day being Sunday, since it was the Resurrection day?

Your church tried to change the day of worship that God installed in his commandments. Are they above the creator? Can they rewrite the Laws written in the stones given to Moses?

Jesus and his followers were Sabbath keepers not Sunday keepers. The Sun God holds Sunday holy. Who do you wish to follow?

rstrats
November 3rd, 2015, 01:43 PM
brewmama,
re: "Sunday"

If by Sunday you mean the first day of the week, I'm not aware of any scripture that ever refers to the first day of the week as the Lord's day. What do you have in mind?

elohiym
November 3rd, 2015, 02:11 PM
Like I already said, the Apostles and early Jewish Christians went to the synagogues on Sat. to convert people, and met with each other on Sunday for church.

That's not accurate. The seventh-day sabbath was kept by almost all Christians for several hundred years after Christ's resurrection (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabbath_in_seventh-day_churches#Early_church).


In the 4th century, Socrates Scholasticus (Church History, Book V) stated:[10]


For although almost all churches throughout the world celebrate the sacred mysteries on the sabbath of every week, yet the Christians of Alexandria and at Rome, on account of some ancient tradition, have ceased to do this. The Egyptians in the neighborhood of Alexandria, and the inhabitants of Thebaļs, hold their religious assemblies on the sabbath, but do not participate of the mysteries in the manner usual among Christians in general: for after having eaten and satisfied themselves with food of all kinds, in the evening making their offerings they partake of the mysteries.

In the 5th century, Sozomen (Ecclesiastical History, Book VII), referencing Socrates Scholasticus, added to his description:[11]


Assemblies are not held in all churches on the same time or manner. The people of Constantinople, and almost everywhere, assemble together on the Sabbath, as well as on the first day of the week, which custom is never observed at Rome or at Alexandria. There are several cities and villages in Egypt where, contrary to the usage established elsewhere, the people meet together on Sabbath evenings, and, although they have dined previously, partake of the mysteries.

What I get from those histories is that all believers kept the fourth commandment (remember the sabbath) but not all believers congregated on the sabbath to partake of the mysteries.

jamie
November 3rd, 2015, 02:49 PM
So? What does that have to do with the Lord's Day being Sunday, since it was the Resurrection day?


Why was Jesus resurrected on the first day of the week?

OCTOBER23
November 5th, 2015, 12:36 AM
Jesus was resurrected at the End of the Sabbath and NOT Sunday?

iouae
November 5th, 2015, 02:46 AM
Jesus was resurrected at the End of the Sabbath and NOT Sunday?

Jonah was 3 days and 3 nights in the belly of the whale .......Christ was 3 days and 3 nights in the belly of the earth (tomb)

The count started when Jonah was swallowed, and ended when he was vomited out..... The count started when Jesus was placed in the tomb (at sunset) and ended when He left the tomb (sunset).

Christ was crucified before the annual Sabbath (Passover) not before the weekly Sabbath (Saturday). The Jews were celebrating Passover that year on Wed night.

Wed night = night 1

Thursday day = day 1

Thursday night = night 2

Friday day = day 2

Friday night = night 3

Saturday day = day 3

Now we are at Saturday sunset which is ON the third day (Matt 20:19), and AFTER three days (Matt 27:63), since sunset is a moment in time.

rstrats
November 5th, 2015, 06:23 AM
iouae,
re: "Wed night = night 1 Thursday day = day 1..."


What happened to Wednesday daytime?

iouae
November 5th, 2015, 06:30 AM
iouae,
re: "Wed night = night 1 Thursday day = day 1..."


What happened to Wednesday daytime?

The gospels go to great pains to describe how it was at sunset that Christ was placed in the tomb. Thus there was no Wednesday in the count. Count began as he was placed in the tomb and the stone closed like a giant whale swallowing Jonah.

rstrats
November 5th, 2015, 06:36 AM
iouae,
re: "Thus there was no Wednesday in the count. Count began as he was placed in the tomb and the stone closed like a giant whale swallowing Jonah."


But you wrote that Wednesday night was night 1.

iouae
November 5th, 2015, 06:46 AM
iouae,
re: "Thus there was no Wednesday in the count. Count began as he was placed in the tomb and the stone closed like a giant whale swallowing Jonah."


But you wrote that Wednesday night was night 1.

Sorry, I should have explained that by the Jewish calendar, days begin and end at sunset.

For the same reason, a Saturday sunset resurrection does not advance the argument of Sunday "keepers" since Sunday begins at midnight and Christ rose six hours before midnight.

rstrats
November 5th, 2015, 07:03 AM
iouae,
re: "Sorry, I should have explained that by the Jewish calendar, [calendar] days begin and end at sunset."


Most everyone knows that, but how does that explain your comment that Wednesday night is night 1 when you also say that "there was no Wednesday in the count"?

iouae
November 5th, 2015, 07:22 AM
iouae,
re: "Sorry, I should have explained that by the Jewish calendar, [calendar] days begin and end at sunset."


Most everyone knows that, but how does that explain your comment that Wednesday night is night 1 when you also say that "there was no Wednesday in the count"?

I am using the Gregorian calendar to explain Jewish days.

There was no Wednesday DAY in the count.

From Wednesday sunset to Saturday sunset is exactly 72 hours = 3 days and 3 nights....
...excluding the fact that as the days length changes in April, becoming longer and one has to add a few minutes onto that. But it is still EXACTLY 3 days and nights.

jon machtemes
November 5th, 2015, 07:22 AM
This is a touchy, and unfortunitely unclear-cut, topic. Here is why: Both of these entities, (RCC and SDA), hold to doctrinal beliefs that are opposed to essential salvific teachings as seen in Holy Scripture.

How is this so? Both preach a differnt Gospel, have a different savior, honor men before God, and require strict adherence to the mandates of their own "faith" or "church" without the ability of the member to openly question.

1) a different gospel and savior: Gospel = Good News. According to Scripture the Good News is that although man is naturally and voluntarily in rebellion against God, God, in His loving-kindness became man in the second person of the trinity,(the Son: Jesus the Christ), and lived a perfect, sinless life before offering Himself up freely to God as a sacrifice and atonement for the forgiveness of sin to all who believe on Him. The gospel message is made effective in men's hearts through the regenerative work of the Holy Spirit and repentance is the fruit of the faith given to men by Him. Justification is granted by God to all who are in Christ through faith and forgiveness of all sins is granted in Christ because of His effective, once for all, sacrifice made. The propitiation of forgiveness is guaranteed as Christ, our high priest, is our continual effective atonement. Sanctification and righteous works will follow, but by NO work does anyone recieve favor from God. It is His act of unconditional grace that imparts devine, unmeritted favor.
Everything just stated is Scriptural. I encourage all to look it all up for yourself and reprove me by Scripture if I misspeak.

RCC gospel: justification comes through faith and the sacrements. Mediation to God comes through the church in the form of it's clergy, Mary, and saints. The mass must be kept as a continual re-sacrifice of Christ for sins. Assurance of salvation is only guaranteed, if that, through works of service towards the RCC as an entity.

SDA gospel: Jesus is Micheal, (an angel...yes, archangel, but an angel nonetheless). Salvation is by grace through faith, and seeking continual forgiveness of every single sin, and an adherence to SDA doctrine, i.e. tithing, saturday sabbath keeping, obstaining from foods, and the acknowledgement of Ellen White as God's prophet. They WILL and HAVE gone as far as to say if you do not keep the saturday Sabbath you carry the mark of the beast and are not saved.

2) honor men before God: We are warned continually throughout Scripture of the dangers and heresy of adhering to man worship or the following of false prophets. This is how the two organizations stand up:

RCC, man or God?: Jesus said, "call no man one earth your 'father', for you have one father, he who is in heaven." The RCC teaches the Pope is infallible, even over the Scripture and its truths! The RCC teaches it's adherents to seek out men, (both living and dead, i.e. priests, saints, Mary), for intercession instead of relying on the finished work of our High Priest, Jesus. The RCC expects adherence to their traditions over Biblical doctrine. They claim that as the Pope, a sinner, is infallible, that he has the power to interpret Scripture and codify tradition as Holy Doctrine.

SDA, man or God?: Jesus said, "Many will come in my name, saying, 'I am the Christ', and decieve many". The Bible never makes allowance for false prophets...never! Never does God predict through a true prophet and have it not come to pass...never! Yet the SDA organization required an adherence to the teachings of Ellen (E.B.) White who has been proven by her own words to be a false prophet. Her false prophesies still exist and are attainable, (her husband of all people preserved them to show her to be a false prophet). In light of this the SDA leadership has never corporately denounced her and still teaches her opinions as if she truly were a prophet. She went so far as to blame God for her failed predictions, yet they stick to her and her teachings in spite of Christ's warnings.

3) They require strict adherence to their own mandates without room for doubt or question:

RCC, dogma or doctrine: Refer to Vatican II wherin it states plainly that sound doctrine is composed of Holy Scripture and Church Tradition. In practice they trump Scripture with tradition every time. They have removed the second commandment from the Decalogue, and this is obvious by their promotion of relics and idols: the toes on the statue of St. Peter, (Zeus), at the Vatican have been kissed off! They instituted and sanctified sunday as the Sabbath. They require strict adherence to the eucharist. They, not Scripture, teach transubstansiation. They teach penance not repentance, purgatory, (nowhere in the Bible), they sanctified Easter and Christmas, Lent, Day of the Dead, All Saints Day. These are traditions, not Scripture, and they teach they have the right to do this. They teach the Holy office of Peter, veneration of saints, indulgences, and that a man, (other than Christ Jesus, Lord of ALL), may give forgiveness of sins!!!

SDA, dogma or doctrine?: Back to Ellen White. Her teachings of food abstinence is an integral part of their tradition. When one is baptized within the SDA organization they are baptized more into that entity than the body of Christ. This is because they believe they are the true remnant body of Christ. Upon baptism there are creeds that must be affirmed to the SDA entity, and this goes beyond ecclesiology, but these affirmations are intended to be a sign that if one does or does not adhere to their traditions or teachings that this is a clear indication of whether or not that person is in Christ. They have a lot to say against the RCC and Papacy, but at the end of the day they are doing some of the same things. They make the SDA organization and teachings of E.B. White the standard mark of salvation. Think not? They teach if you don't keep the saturday Sabbath as they dictate that you have the mark of the beast. They teach that to be a new creation in Christ involves tithing to the SDA entity, as opposed to cheerful giving as Christ said: to the poor. They do not allow for repudiation to their doctrines, (handed down by Ellen White), just as the RCC does with Canon Law.

Some may think the last part there about the SDA's dogma is a bit unfair, but the problem there is the subtlty of it. The RCC is very bold, "This is our doctrine. We changed it. We have the power to do so." They aren't shy about that. The RCC teaches they are Mother Church, all outside her are heretics. The thing is, so do the SDAs in a far morw subtle way. In fact, the SDAs use the RCC as their continual smoke-screen to hide their own apostacy.

Apostacy??? Yes, I am afraid so. The very Bible itself condemns both belief systems as apostate. And who am I, the perfect voice of truth? No. I am a sinner. I am a fallible man who's faith is in Christ alone and His promises found in His Word. I affirm the truth of God's Word though I often misunderstand it. Does this mean I can't understand the doctrines I just spoke of? No, and yes. I need the Holy Spirit to constantly correct and instruct me. I need the members of the Body of Christ to help me in my walk and faith. The members of His Body have no denominational name-tag. There are some in the RCC and SDA organizations which the Spirit will lead out of there. The Spirit has led me away from many false teachers and teachings.

The leaders of both the RCC and SDA organizations often speak truths, but it is not the truths they speak that I take issue with, no, its their insistence that we pledge allegiance to a fallible, faulty system contrived of man over and above the Lord Jesus Christ and His Word.

Incidentally, I observe Sabbath from Friday evening to Saturday evening, not because I believe only those who are saved do, but because I see it in Scripture as unchanged and a joy and honor to my creator. I confess my sins continually, but I never worry that the ones I forgot will be held against me: Christ forgave them all, now and forever. I hate abortion as the Catholics do and believe the charitable acts of both the RCC and SDAs are commendable and very helpful to the poor and needy. My hat is off to both of them for that. But let us remember, our allegiance is to Christ and not an entity, whether it calls itself a church or whatever it calls itself. He loves us and gave Himself up for us. God bless you all.

iouae
November 5th, 2015, 07:36 AM
They do not allow for repudiation to their doctrines, (handed down by Ellen White), just as the RCC does with Canon Law.

Incidentally, I observe Sabbath from Friday evening to Saturday evening...

The SDA's are more locked into their doctrines than the RCC.

But if one wants to observe a Saturday Sabbath, the choices of churches are few and far between.

I believe one can attend a church one broadly agrees with, without it being a deal-breaker that they believe a lot of garbage too. My policy is just to not say "amen" to the bits I mentally disagree with.

chrysostom
November 5th, 2015, 07:39 AM
The SDA's are more locked into their doctrines than the RCC.

But if one wants to observe a Saturday Sabbath, the choices of churches are few and far between.
.

most catholic chrurches have mass on saturday

iouae
November 5th, 2015, 07:49 AM
most catholic chrurches have mass on saturday

Most churches are wonderfully welcoming of all.
Of course, if you don't swallow the church's doctrines hook, line and sinker, they will not allow you podium time. But that's not what most of us are looking for.

jon machtemes
November 5th, 2015, 08:10 AM
Right. As with most of you, i desire fellowship with other men and women in Christ. I actually haven't even gotten around to mentioning to any of them that I keep a Saturday Sabbath. I am afraid they might think I am a sabetarian. Its a touchy subject. And, yes, true...the RCC does have a saturday mass. Good day all.

jamie
November 5th, 2015, 09:00 AM
...excluding the fact that as the days length changes in April, becoming longer and one has to add a few minutes onto that.


It's the hours that changed in length. There were twelve hours in a day regardless of the season.

OCTOBER23
November 5th, 2015, 09:04 AM
IOU - I HAVE BEEN POSTING THIS FOR THE PAST 8 YEARS HERE

AND NO ONE BELIEVED ME. ps.It was actually 31/2 days.

THE DAY BEGINS AT SUNRISE ACCORDING TO EXODUS 16.
-------------------------------------------------------------------
WED NIGHT AT 6 PM = TOMB OF HIS PHYSICAL DAD = JOSEPH
THURSDAY AT 6 PM = 1
FRIDAY AT 6 PM ......=2
SATURDAY AT 6 PM = 3
SATURDAY NIGHT TILL 5AM = WHEN IT WAS STILL DARK = 31/2 days
BEFORE THE DAY BEGAN AT SUNRISE.
--THEY CAME TO THE TOMB WHILE IT WAS STILL DARK
=========================================
31/2 days - same as two witnesses of revelations

iouae
November 5th, 2015, 09:16 AM
It's the hours that changed in length. There were twelve hours in a day regardless of the season.

April is after the equinox so days are lengthening. Say Christ died at sunset (say 6pm) and in the following 3 days sunset times increased by 3 minutes per day, Christ would rise at 6:09 pm Sat evening. Thus it would be 72 hours and 9 minutes Christ was in the grave, but still exactly 3 DAYS & 3 NIGHTS (sunset to sunset).

iouae
November 5th, 2015, 09:20 AM
IOU - I HAVE BEEN POSTING THIS FOR THE PAST 8 YEARS HERE

AND NO ONE BELIEVED ME. ps.It was actually 31/2 days.

THE DAY BEGINS AT SUNRISE ACCORDING TO EXODUS 16.
-------------------------------------------------------------------
WED NIGHT AT 6 PM = TOMB OF HIS PHYSICAL DAD = JOSEPH
THURSDAY AT 6 PM = 1
FRIDAY AT 6 PM ......=2
SATURDAY AT 6 PM = 3
SATURDAY NIGHT TILL 5AM = WHEN IT WAS STILL DARK = 31/2 days
BEFORE THE DAY BEGAN AT SUNRISE.
--THEY CAME TO THE TOMB WHILE IT WAS STILL DARK
=========================================
31/2 days - same as two witnesses of revelations

What if after Christ rose He went and preached to the demons imprisoned in tartaros. They hit him with their best shot, and now they are defeated. Then he met the women just after sunrise, and immediately thereafter ascended to the Father in heaven.

This makes EXACTLY 3 days and nights in the grave - which was the sign - not 3.5.

brewmama
November 5th, 2015, 12:21 PM
April is after the equinox so days are lengthening. Say Christ died at sunset (say 6pm) and in the following 3 days sunset times increased by 3 minutes per day, Christ would rise at 6:09 pm Sat evening. Thus it would be 72 hours and 9 minutes Christ was in the grave, but still exactly 3 DAYS & 3 NIGHTS (sunset to sunset).

Why would you say he died at sunset? He died around the ninth hour (3 pm)

iouae
November 5th, 2015, 12:29 PM
Why would you say he died at sunset? He died around the ninth hour (3 pm)

Yes He died at 3. But the sign of Jonah starts not when he died, but when he was swallowed by the earth as Jonah was swallowed by the whale. And when both are spat out, the stopwatch stops.

Mark 15

42 And now when the even was come, because it was the preparation, that is, the day before the sabbath,

43 Joseph of Arimathaea, an honourable counsellor, which also waited for the kingdom of God, came, and went in boldly unto Pilate, and craved the body of Jesus.

rstrats
November 5th, 2015, 12:32 PM
brewmama,

You have a question directed to you in post #58.

jamie
November 5th, 2015, 12:51 PM
April is after the equinox so days are lengthening.


Yes, because the hours were lengthening. Midday was noon on the sundials regardless of the season.

Jesus asked, "Are there not twelve hours in the day?" (John 11:9 NKJV)

jamie
November 5th, 2015, 12:56 PM
And also:


It was the day of Preparation and the sabbath was beginning. (Luke 23:54 RSV)

iouae
November 5th, 2015, 01:11 PM
Yes, because the hours were lengthening. Midday was noon on the sundials regardless of the season.

Jesus asked, "Are there not twelve hours in the day?" (John 11:9 NKJV)

Are you saying there always are 12 hours in a day because Christ made this general statement?

Only around the equinoxes for 2 weeks or so is the day EXACTLY 12 hours long, and so is the night. For the other 50 weeks, the day is NOT 12 hours long.

Or are you saying the Hebrew calendar hours varied in length? If so, I would love to see a link.
And yes, midday is noon, is when the shadow is shortest - by definition.

Edit: Seems like Hebrew hours do vary in length.
"The Jewish daytime hours began with dawn and ended with sundown, which began the next day. The hours are seasonal, so the length of the daylight hours varied with the season of the year."
http://www.agapebiblestudy.com/charts/jewishtimedivision.htm

WonderfulLordJesus
November 5th, 2015, 01:17 PM
Romans 14:5-6 One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind. He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks.

Colossians 2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days.

Galatians 2:4-5 And that because of false brethren unawares brought in, who came in privily to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, that they might bring us into bondage: to whom we gave place by subjection, no, not for an hour; that the truth of the gospel might continue with you.

Galatians 4:9-11 But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage? Ye observe days, and months, and times, and years. I am afraid of you, lest I have bestowed upon you labour in vain.

iouae
November 5th, 2015, 01:21 PM
Yes, because the hours were lengthening. Midday was noon on the sundials regardless of the season.

Jesus asked, "Are there not twelve hours in the day?" (John 11:9 NKJV)

Just researched it at this site.

http://www.agapebiblestudy.com/charts/jewishtimedivision.htm

Here they say..."The Jewish daytime hours began with dawn and ended with sundown, which began the next day. The hours are seasonal, so the length of the daylight hours varied with the season of the year."

Fascinating - if true :)

Thanks

jamie
November 5th, 2015, 03:26 PM
The varying hours does not change your point since three days of twelve hours and three nights of twelve hours adds up to 72 hours.

oatmeal
November 5th, 2015, 04:08 PM
Seventh Day Adventists don't like Catholics or the unborn

I have discussed theology with them b4, and it is unbelievable how much they HATE Catholicism (if not Catholics). they are closed-minded to what the Church has to say or teach.

Also, they believe REALLY weird things about end times.. that the RC Church is the anti-Christ (Hey, some of the people in the RCC are definitely anti-Christ... but that doesn't mean...)

They (SDAs) also don't like the unborn. They teach that abortion is acceptable in some situations. Really? Murder is OK in certain situations??

Right..

As Ronald Reagan said:

That's easy for them to say, they are already born


Stand up for the unborn: Refuse to vote for Carson...

vote for

Cruz
or Huckabee

(I think Rubio voted for amnesty...)


+++

Catholics don't like Catholics and the unborn.

rstrats
November 7th, 2015, 06:57 AM
WonderfulLordJesus,


Care to explain your reason for quoting the scriptures referenced in your post #84?

rstrats
November 7th, 2015, 07:38 AM
re: ""I am using the Gregorian calendar to explain Jewish days. There was no Wednesday DAY [time] in the count."


Why are you doing that? A calendar day at the time of the crucifixion was generally considered to begin at sunset. When the Messiah gave His prophesy wouldn't He have been basing it on a sunset to sunset calendar day?

iouae
November 7th, 2015, 09:03 AM
re: ""I am using the Gregorian calendar to explain Jewish days. There was no Wednesday DAY [time] in the count."


Why are you doing that? A calendar day at the time of the crucifixion was generally considered to begin at sunset. When the Messiah gave His prophesy wouldn't He have been basing it on a sunset to sunset calendar day?

Yes, but try explaining 3 days and 3 nights, and which days of the week this was without the Gregorian calendar. The moment I say He was crucified on a Wednesday at sunset and rose on a Saturday at sunset, I am using our Gregorian days of the week.

The time between these to Gregorian references is exactly 3 full Hebrew days and nights.

Cruciform
November 7th, 2015, 10:04 AM
Catholics don't like Catholics and the unborn.
oatmeal is a non-Christian who likes to deliberately misrepresent the Catholic Church and her teachings. :(

rstrats
November 7th, 2015, 04:53 PM
iouae,
re: "Yes, but try explaining 3 days and 3 nights, and which days of the week this was without the Gregorian calendar."

OK, let's say the crucifixion took place on the 5th day of the week. Luke 23:53-56 indicates that the Messiah was placed in the tomb that same day - thus daytime 1 of His prophesy. Then the 6th day of the week would account for night time 1 and daytime 2 of His prophesy. And then the 7th day of the week would account for night time 2 and daytime 3 of His prophesy. So a first calendar day of the week resurrection (Mark 16:9) would provide night time 3 of His prophesy. This would be three days after the crucifixion in accordance with Mark 31:8. It also agrees with Luke 24:21.

iouae
November 7th, 2015, 06:21 PM
iouae,
re: "Yes, but try explaining 3 days and 3 nights, and which days of the week this was without the Gregorian calendar."

OK, let's say the crucifixion took place on the 5th day of the week. Luke 23:53-56 indicates that the Messiah was placed in the tomb that same day - thus daytime 1 of His prophesy. Then the 6th day of the week would account for night time 1 and daytime 2 of His prophesy. And then the 7th day of the week would account for night time 2 and daytime 3 of His prophesy. So a first calendar day of the week resurrection (Mark 16:9) would provide night time 3 of His prophesy. This would be three days after the crucifixion in accordance with Mark 31:8. It also agrees with Luke 24:21.

I agree that would work if one counts the few minutes of daylight of day 5 as a day.

jamie
November 7th, 2015, 07:26 PM
I agree that would work if one counts the few minutes of daylight of day 5 as a day.



That day was the Preparation and the Sabbath drew near. (Luke 23:54 NKJV)

What does "drew near" mean? What Greek word was translated drew near?

iouae
November 7th, 2015, 08:00 PM
That day was the Preparation and the Sabbath drew near. (Luke 23:54 NKJV)

What does "drew near" mean? What Greek word was translated drew near?

I am no Greek scholar but the word in question is

epiphosko

epi = “upon,” “on,” “over,” “ near,”
phos = light

Thayers defines it as "to grow light, to dawn"
Strongs defines it as "to begin to grow light - begin to dawn"

I still believe the true timing is at the exact time of sunset or "at dawn of the Jewish day". I still believe it was a Wednesday afternoon sunset that the tomb was closed and the count began.

That is the only way it can be ON the third day and AFTER the third day that Christ rose, viz the cusp of the day or Saturday sunset.

I don't see how the Thursday sunset burial of Christ takes care of "AFTER" 3 days. It only takes care of ON the third day...

And Christ was risen before sunrise, so no part of Sunday's day could count as "after".
Thus a count starting on Thurs near sunset has a tiny part of Thurs afternoon = day 1
Friday day = day 2
Saturday day = day 3


Mark 8:31 And he began to teach them, that the Son of man must suffer many things, and be rejected of the elders, and of the chief priests, and scribes, and be killed, and after three days rise again.

jamie
November 7th, 2015, 11:51 PM
epiphosko

epi = “upon,” “on,” “over,” “ near,”
phos = light

Thayers defines it as "to grow light, to dawn"
Strongs defines it as "to begin to grow light - begin to dawn"


Yes, as Jesus was entombed the Sabbath dawned meaning it began. This word epiphosko is also used in Matthew 28:1 and is translated dawn.

iouae
November 8th, 2015, 12:45 AM
Yes, as Jesus was entombed the Sabbath dawned meaning it began. This word epiphosko is also used in Matthew 28:1 and is translated dawn.

I agree with you. It seems to be the word talking of a change of light, dawn or dusk. Found in Luke 23:54 (drew on) and Matt 28:1 (to dawn).

rstrats
November 8th, 2015, 06:20 AM
iouae,
re: "The moment I say He was crucified on a Wednesday at sunset and rose on a Saturday at sunset, I am using our Gregorian days of the week."

Two things:

The moment you say He was crucified on a Wednesday at sunset is the moment that you would be incorrect in your assertion. Mark 15:25 says that it was around 9am when He was crucified.


Also, when you say 'Gregorian days' I assume you mean a calendar day reckoned from midnight to midnight. So using a midnight to midnight calendar day, what calendar day of the week - the 4th or the 5th - are you saying the Messiah was placed in the tomb?



re: "The time between these to Gregorian references is exactly 3 full Hebrew days and nights."

You're mixing the proverbial apples and oranges. A Gregorian midnight to midnight calendar day consists of 2 night times whereas the supreme being's sunset to sunset calendar day consists of 1 night time.

BTW, why do you suppose the woman waited until the first day of the week to go to the tomb with the spices?

iouae
November 8th, 2015, 06:55 AM
iouae,
re: "The moment I say He was crucified on a Wednesday at sunset and rose on a Saturday at sunset, I am using our Gregorian days of the week."

Two things:

The moment you say He was crucified on a Wednesday at sunset is the moment that you would be incorrect in your assertion. Mark 15:25 says that it was around 9am when He was crucified.


Also, when you say 'Gregorian days' I assume you mean a calendar day reckoned from midnight to midnight. So using a midnight to midnight calendar day, what calendar day of the week - the 4th or the 5th - are you saying the Messiah was placed in the tomb?



re: "The time between these to Gregorian references is exactly 3 full Hebrew days and nights."

You're mixing the proverbial apples and oranges. A Gregorian midnight to midnight calendar day consists of 2 night times whereas the supreme being's sunset to sunset calendar day consists of 1 night time.

BTW, why do you suppose the woman waited until the first day of the week to go to the tomb with the spices?

OK so let's not split hairs :)

You believe in a Thurs sunset (last bit of 5th day, beginning 6th day) to a Sunday early morning (1st day) 3 days and 3 nights.

I believe in a Wed sunset (beginning 5th day) to Sat sunset (beginning of 1st day/end of 7th day) 3 days and 3 nights.

If I were to guess, it would be because the tomb was sealed with a guard for 3 days and nights. They had rested the Sabbath. They had bought spices on Friday. They needed light to do the enbalming, so they could not come Sat night (beginning of 1st day).

So they came as early as they could Sun morning while it was still dark (1st day morning).

John 20:1-18
The first day of the week cometh Mary Magdalene early, when it was yet dark, unto the sepulchre, and seeth the stone taken away from the sepulchre.

So how do you account for the AFTER 3 days scripture?

jamie
November 8th, 2015, 12:28 PM
I agree with you. It seems to be the word talking of a change of light, dawn or dusk. Found in Luke 23:54 (drew on) and Matt 28:1 (to dawn).


Yes, the KJV obfuscated epiphosko to support a Friday crucifixion. They needed a part of Friday to make parts of three days.

We know Jesus was not entombed on the afternoon of the day he was crucified because the first day of the week was the third day.


But we were hoping that it was He who was going to redeem Israel. Indeed, besides all this, today is the third day since these things happened. (Luke 24:21 NKJV)

Had Jesus been entombed on Friday the weekly Sabbath would have been the first day since, Sunday would have been the second day since and Monday would have been the third day since.

Had Jesus been entombed on Wednesday afternoon Thursday would have been the first day since, Friday would have been the second day and the weekly Sabbath would have been the third day.

The third day since negates the Friday entombment.

jamie
November 8th, 2015, 12:41 PM
Luke 23:54 says the Sabbath drew near (meaning it began). How did Joseph know the Sabbath had begun?

Trumpets announced the beginning and end of the Sabbath. (Jewish Encyclopedia/ Trumpet)

iouae
November 8th, 2015, 01:49 PM
Yes, the KJV obfuscated epiphosko to support a Friday crucifixion. They needed a part of Friday to make parts of three days.

We know Jesus was not entombed on the afternoon of the day he was crucified because the first day of the week was the third day.


But we were hoping that it was He who was going to redeem Israel. Indeed, besides all this, today is the third day since these things happened. (Luke 24:21 NKJV)

Had Jesus been entombed on Friday the weekly Sabbath would have been the first day since, Sunday would have been the second day since and Monday would have been the third day since.

Had Jesus been entombed on Wednesday afternoon Thursday would have been the first day since, Friday would have been the second day and the weekly Sabbath would have been the third day.

The third day since negates the Friday entombment.

Hmmm??? Now you have got me thinking. Why would they say that Sunday was the third day since Wednesday?

I am at a loss to answer that :confused:

jamie
November 8th, 2015, 03:28 PM
Hmmm??? Now you have got me thinking. Why would they say that Sunday was the third day since Wednesday?

I am at a loss to answer that :confused:


If Jesus was buried as Thursday began then one day since then would be as Friday began, two days later would be as the Sabbath began, the third day would be as Sunday began.

Jesus was raised at sundown, the beginning of Sunday.


Now when He rose early on the first day of the week... (Mark 16:9 NKJV)

It was still Sunday (the third day) when Jesus talked with the men on their way to Emmaus.

iouae
November 8th, 2015, 03:58 PM
If Jesus was buried as Thursday began then one day since then would be as Friday began, two days later would be as the Sabbath began, the third day would be as Sunday began.

Jesus was raised at sundown, the beginning of Sunday.


Now when He rose early on the first day of the week... (Mark 16:9 NKJV)

It was still Sunday (the third day) when Jesus talked with the men on their way to Emmaus.

Yes. It makes more sense to me if they had phrased it "Three days have passed since Christ was crucified..." which is not too different from what they said. Thanks

rstrats
November 12th, 2015, 08:49 PM
iouae,
re: "So how do you account for the AFTER 3 days scripture?"

What is there in scripture that requires an accounting for the after 3 days scripture? Why not take it for what it says?

iouae
November 12th, 2015, 09:47 PM
iouae,
re: "So how do you account for the AFTER 3 days scripture?"

What is there in scripture that requires an accounting for the after 3 days scripture? Why not take it for what it says?

I am taking it for what it says.
Look at all the prepositions highlighted.
How can one be in three days and after three days and the third day?

These sound like different lengths of time.


Luke 24:21 But we trusted that it had been he which should have redeemed Israel: and beside all this, to day is the third day since these

Luke 18:33 And they shall scourge him, and put him to death: and the third day he shall rise again.


Matthew 27:63 Saying, Sir, we remember that that deceiver said, while he was yet alive, After three days I will rise again.

Mark 8:31 And he began to teach them, that the Son of man must suffer many things, and be rejected of the elders, and of the chief priests, and scribes, and be killed, and after three days rise again.

Mark 14:58 We heard him say, I will destroy this temple that is made with hands, and within three days I will build another made without hands.

John 2:19 Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.

John 2:20 Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days?

jamie
November 12th, 2015, 09:51 PM
iouae,
re: "So how do you account for the AFTER 3 days scripture?"

What is there in scripture that requires an accounting for the after 3 days scripture? Why not take it for what it says?



And He began to teach them that the Son of Man must suffer many things and be rejected by the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed and after three days rise again. (Mark 8:31 NKJV)

He would rise again after three days from when he died. He died on Wednesday and rose again after three days on Sunday.

iouae
November 12th, 2015, 09:59 PM
What I do understand is that if you tell someone "I will fix your car in three days" it will mean a whole lot of different things to each listener.
Some will think "within".
Some will think "on" the third day.
Some will think "to the exact second 72 hours later".
Some will think "after" three days.

One thing I do know. Christ knew to the nanosecond, how long he would be in the grave.

iouae
November 12th, 2015, 10:02 PM
And He began to teach them that the Son of Man must suffer many things and be rejected by the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed and after three days rise again. (Mark 8:31 NKJV)

He would rise again after three days from when he died. He died on Wednesday and rose again after three days on Sunday.

I agree with the Wed crucifixion.

rstrats
November 16th, 2015, 08:05 AM
iouae,
re: "How can one be in three days and after three days and the third day? These sound like different lengths of time."

The controlling phrase is "after three days". So the others have to be referring to the third day after with the word 'after' being implied. This agrees with Matthew 12:40 and Luke 24:21.

iouae
November 16th, 2015, 08:34 AM
iouae,
re: "How can one be in three days and after three days and the third day? These sound like different lengths of time."

The controlling phrase is "after three days". So the others have to be referring to the third day after with the word 'after' being implied. This agrees with Matthew 12:40 and Luke 24:21.

I agree with the "after" being implied.

To me the Wed sunset placed in grave to Sat sunset rise from grave ticks all the boxes.

rstrats
November 16th, 2015, 09:36 AM
jamie,
re: "He would rise again after three days from when he died. He died on Wednesday and rose again after three days on Sunday."

Let's see if that works: If He died on the 4th day of the week, then the first day after His death would be the 5th day of the week, and the second day after His death would be the 6th day of the week, and the third day after His death would be the 7th day of the week and not the 1st day as you suggest. Also, 4 night times would be involved.

iouae
November 16th, 2015, 09:40 AM
jamie,
re: "He would rise again after three days from when he died. He died on Wednesday and rose again after three days on Sunday."

Let's see if that works: If He died on the 4th day of the week, then the first day after His death would be the 5th day of the week, and the second day after His death would be the 6th day of the week, and the third day after His death would be the 7th day of the week and not the 1st day as you suggest.

I think we are missing "in the belly of the whale = in the belly of the grave". The count begins sunset, not 3pm.

jamie
November 16th, 2015, 12:36 PM
Let's see if that works: If He died on the 4th day of the week, then the first day after His death would be the 5th day of the week, and the second day after His death would be the 6th day of the week, and the third day after His death would be the 7th day of the week and not the 1st day as you suggest.


And Sunday would be after three days, Thursday, Friday, Sabbath are the three days and three nights. Sunday would be after those three days and nights.

jamie
November 16th, 2015, 12:38 PM
Also, 4 night times would be involved.


Thursday night, Friday night, Sabbath night ... I just count three, how do you get four?

rstrats
November 16th, 2015, 01:38 PM
jamie,
re: "And Sunday would be after three days..."

Then the 7th day of the week would be after two days, and the 6th day of the week would be after one day, and the 5th day of the week would be after zero day. And then there is still the 4th day of the week.


re: "Thursday night, Friday night, Sabbath night ... I just count three, how do you get four?"

The night times of the 5th, 6th, 7th and 1st days of the week.