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heir
October 29th, 2015, 12:42 PM
of your salvation!
Where is it found in the Bible?
What is it and how is one saved?

Caino
October 30th, 2015, 04:26 AM
of your salvation!
Where is it found in the Bible?
What is it and how is one saved?

The "good news" gospel is what the Jews would be teaching today from Jerusalem had they not rejected their calling, rejected the original gospel. Jesus lived the gospel for the cause of our salvation. But tragically the original "good news" changed after Jesus returned to heaven. Largely discarded by Judaism the Pagan world was found receptive to a "new good news gospel" in that they already had beliefs about human/divine sacrifice.

This is the "good news", we are saved by faith and the responsibility that comes with it. The good news to those who lived under the oppressive yoke of ritualistic, legalistic self righteous religion was that ALL men and women of the earth are in fact Sons and Daughters of God, that by faith each of us may realize this ennobling truth. The Kingdom of God is comprised of the spiritual community among believers. In the kingdom there are no boundaries, races, creeds, doctrines or nationalities. We are all one faith family. Unity not uniformity.

Nick M
October 30th, 2015, 07:01 AM
The Lord Jesus Christ died for sin and was raised for our justification. I am Holy, justified, dead to sin, a slave to righteousness, and alive in Christ.

Jamie Gigliotti
October 30th, 2015, 09:08 AM
"For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people, training us to renounce ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright and godly lives, in the present age, waiting for our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ, who gave himself for us to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people for His own possession who are zealous for good works." Titus 2:11-14
For His glory, for His love!

chrysostom
October 30th, 2015, 09:11 AM
we

might be saved (https://www.biblegateway.com/quicksearch/?quicksearch=might+be+saved&qs_version=KJV)

SaulToPaul
October 30th, 2015, 09:12 AM
we

might be saved (https://www.biblegateway.com/quicksearch/?quicksearch=might+be+saved&qs_version=KJV)

:chuckle:

steko
October 30th, 2015, 09:25 AM
we

might be saved (https://www.biblegateway.com/quicksearch/?quicksearch=might+be+saved&qs_version=KJV)

An accomplished fact:

2Ti 1:9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

Tit 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

Rom 5:11 And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.

heir
October 30th, 2015, 10:26 AM
The "good news" gospel is what the Jews would be teaching today from Jerusalem had they not rejected their calling, rejected the original gospel. Jesus lived the gospel for the cause of our salvation. But tragically the original "good news" changed after Jesus returned to heaven. Largely discarded by Judaism the Pagan world was found receptive to a "new good news gospel" in that they already had beliefs about human/divine sacrifice.

This is the "good news", we are saved by faith and the responsibility that comes with it. The good news to those who lived under the oppressive yoke of ritualistic, legalistic self righteous religion was that ALL men and women of the earth are in fact Sons and Daughters of God, that by faith each of us may realize this ennobling truth. The Kingdom of God is comprised of the spiritual community among believers. In the kingdom there are no boundaries, races, creeds, doctrines or nationalities. We are all one faith family. Unity not uniformity.Wow.

So you aren't saved yet?

Tambora
October 30th, 2015, 10:31 AM
An accomplished fact:

2Ti 1:9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

Tit 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

Rom 5:11 And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v710/sissypoo/SMILES/imagesqtbnANd9GcRtsPo1X2EFhxtls44PV.jpg

heir
October 30th, 2015, 10:38 AM
"For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people, training us to renounce ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright and godly lives, in the present age, waiting for our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ, who gave himself for us to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people for His own possession who are zealous for good works." Titus 2:11-14
For His glory, for His love!Hi Jamie, yes the grace of God has appeared to all men and is our teacher (Titus 2:11 KJV). That is in contrast to the law being Israel's (and those associated with Israel) schoolmaster to bring them unto Christ (Galatians 3:24 KJV).

But, it is God ("but God" Ephesians 2:4-9 KJV) Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace (Titus 3:4-7 KJV) that is ("but is now") made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ (to the apostle Paul), Who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel (2 Timothy 1:9-11 KJV). Hence the question, What is the gospel of YOUR salvation?

heir
October 30th, 2015, 10:41 AM
we

might be saved (https://www.biblegateway.com/quicksearch/?quicksearch=might+be+saved&qs_version=KJV)As usual, the catholic has none

heir
October 30th, 2015, 10:42 AM
An accomplished fact:
:up: Yeppeth! It's a done deal!

Jamie Gigliotti
October 30th, 2015, 11:19 AM
"For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people, training us to renounce ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright and godly lives, in the present age, waiting for our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ, who gave himself for us to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people for His own possession who are zealous for good works." Titus 2:11-14
For His glory, for His love!

Is this not Good News? He is our salvation in this age and the next. His Spirit now.

Jamie Gigliotti
October 30th, 2015, 11:22 AM
Hi Jamie, yes the grace of God has appeared to all men and is our teacher (Titus 2:11 KJV). That is in contrast to the law being Israel's (and those associated with Israel) schoolmaster to bring them unto Christ (Galatians 3:24 KJV).

But, it is God ("but God" Ephesians 2:4-9 KJV) Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace (Titus 3:4-7 KJV) that is ("but is now") made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ (to the apostle Paul), Who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel (2 Timothy 1:9-11 KJV). Hence the question, What is the gospel of YOUR salvation?
What is yours?

heir
October 31st, 2015, 02:59 PM
Is this not Good News? He is our salvation in this age and the next. His Spirit now.

There is a gospel that is the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation according to the apostle Paul. What is it?

heir
October 31st, 2015, 03:00 PM
What is yours?

You first.

aikido7
October 31st, 2015, 03:18 PM
of your salvation!
Where is it found in the Bible?
What is it and how is one saved?Jesus teaches me that salvation is all about transformation in this life.

He granted salvation to many long before he was killed on a cross in Jerusalem. A blood atonement would have been disgusting to a Jew like Jesus, even in a metaphorical sense of the theology of the Last Supper.

I have been saved and I know others on this site are as well. But it's all about interpretation and the Jesus I see manifested the character and power and passion of a God of mercy who demands repentance instead of the spilling of blood on the altar.

Jesus quoted the prophet Hosea when he said God desires "mercy, not sacrifice."
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
THE 'GOOD NEWS' as
"ACTION-BASED CHRISTIANITY"


"The Spirit of the Lord is on me, because he has anointed me to proclaim good news to the poor. He has sent me to proclaim freedom for the prisoners and recovery of sight for the blind, to set the oppressed free..."

Caino
November 4th, 2015, 05:53 AM
Wow.

So you aren't saved yet?

Yes, saved by faith and I know it. Salvation can be taken for granted by those who by faith realize the Fatherhood of God and the brotherhood of all mankind. Paul's atonement doctrine was a compromise for the spiritually lazy.

fzappa13
November 4th, 2015, 05:57 AM
of your salvation!
Where is it found in the Bible?
What is it and how is one saved?

The more pertinent question is when is on saved?

heir
November 4th, 2015, 11:56 AM
The more pertinent question is when is on saved?When one trusts the Lord after hearing and believing the word of truth, they are saved (1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV). That is also when we are baptized by one Spirit (1 Corinthians 12:13 KJV) and sealed with that Holy Spirit of promise (Ephesians 1:13-14 KJV).

heir
November 4th, 2015, 11:58 AM
Yes, saved by faith and I know it. Salvation can be taken for granted by those who by faith realize the Fatherhood of God and the brotherhood of all mankind. Paul's atonement doctrine was a compromise for the spiritually lazy.Not a moment in your life when you trusted the Lord after hearing and believing the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: no salvation! It is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth (Romans 1:16-17 KJV). Without it, you are OUT (2 Corinthians 13:5 KJV)!

patrick jane
November 4th, 2015, 12:00 PM
Yes, saved by faith and I know it. Salvation can be taken for granted by those who by faith realize the Fatherhood of God and the brotherhood of all mankind. Paul's atonement doctrine was a compromise for the spiritually lazy.

Blashphemy

Jamie Gigliotti
November 4th, 2015, 01:21 PM
You first.

Ok, I'll bite.
Jesus Himself is the good news! His love, the Father's love, His grace, His love and Spirit inside of us. This is accomplished by His blood demonstrating that God is Just and He is love. When I first trusted Him, His love and forgiveness and Spirit came upon me. Reconciled to God. Now I choose to ingratiate His Spirit or my flesh. And so does anyone who meets him spirit to spirit. We have free will we choose.
"For the one sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption, but the one who sows to the Spirit, will from the Spirit reap eternal life." Galatians 6:8

heir
November 4th, 2015, 01:48 PM
Ok, I'll bite.
Jesus Himself is the good news! His love, the Father's love, His grace, His love and Spirit inside of us. This is accomplished by His blood demonstrating that God is Just and He is love. When I first trusted Him, His love and forgiveness and Spirit came upon me. Reconciled to God. Now I choose to ingratiate His Spirit or my flesh. And so does anyone who meets him spirit to spirit. We have free will we choose.
"For the one sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption, but the one who sows to the Spirit, will from the Spirit reap eternal life." Galatians 6:8You'll bite? It's a valid question/ There are thousands of people who call themselves "Christian"and yet cannot answer, "What is the gospel of your salvation?". Paul writes that the word of truth is the "gospel of your salvation" in Ephesians 1:13-14 KJV and since he declares the gospel in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV it stands to reason that the fact that Christ died for our sins, was buried and rose again the third day is that gospel! And it doesn't take much digging to see that he preached it as the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth (at that time to the Jew first and also to the Greek Romans 1:16 KJV) and that it is by grace through the faith, that not of ourselves, but the gift of God (Ephesians 2:8-9 KJV).

Jamie Gigliotti
November 4th, 2015, 03:29 PM
You'll bite? It's a valid question/ There are thousands of people who call themselves "Christian"and yet cannot answer, "What is the gospel of your salvation?". Paul writes that the word of truth is the "gospel of your salvation" in Ephesians 1:13-14 KJV and since he declares the gospel in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV it stands to reason that the fact that Christ died for our sins, was buried and rose again the third day is that gospel! And it doesn't take much digging to see that he preached it as the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth (at that time to the Jew first and also to the Greek Romans 1:16 KJV) and that it is by grace through the faith, that not of ourselves, but the gift of God (Ephesians 2:8-9 KJV).
It also doesn't take much digging in scripture to see that the gift of God is himself at the cross and His Spirit that can make us be what He wants it we submit to Him. The gift is meant to empower us to be like Him right here right now.

fzappa13
November 4th, 2015, 04:13 PM
When one trusts the Lord after hearing and believing the word of truth, they are saved (1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV). That is also when we are baptized by one Spirit (1 Corinthians 12:13 KJV) and sealed with that Holy Spirit of promise (Ephesians 1:13-14 KJV).


Okay, let's have a little closer look at the verses that you offered:


1Cor 15:1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:


Notice the “if” word followed by a warning. Doesn't sound like an accomplished fact to me though it does address something of the method of salvation. Now lets look at the next verse you offered:


1Cor 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

This passage says nothing of our salvation nor the timing of it. On to the third passage you offered:

Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.


Even when taken out of context, which this verse obviously is, there is still no direct indicator as to the timing of salvation but there is a very important clue. Once we believed, we were sealed by the spirit of promise which is a down payment of our inheritance to be received in full when we are redeemed. The question then becomes, when are we redeemed?

heir
November 4th, 2015, 06:30 PM
Okay, let's have a little closer look at the verses that you offered:


1Cor 15:1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:


Notice the “if” word followed by a warning. Doesn't sound like an accomplished fact to me though it does address something of the method of salvation. Those who don't believe in the three elements of the gospel declared and preached by Paul would be believing in vain. An example would be the "some" who did not believe in the resurrection of the dead:

1 Corinthians 15:12 Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead?

1 Corinthians 15:13 But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen:

1 Corinthians 15:14 And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain.

1 Corinthians 15:15 Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not.

1 Corinthians 15:16 For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised:

1 Corinthians 15:17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.



Now lets look at the next verse you offered:


1Cor 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

This passage says nothing of our salvation nor the timing of it. On to the third passage you offered:It's a positional truth for all who are saved!


Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.


Even when taken out of context, which this verse obviously is, there is still no direct indicator as to the timing of salvation but there is a very important clue. Once we believed, we were sealed by the spirit of promise which is a down payment of our inheritance to be received in full when we are redeemed. The question then becomes, when are we redeemed?Again, a positional truth for those who have trusted the Lord after hearing and believing the word of truth, the gospel of our salvation. As to your question, we are already have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace:

Ephesians 1:7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;

We (the saved) look for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:

Titus 2:13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;

for the redemption of our body

Romans 8:22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.

Romans 8:23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

Romans 8:24 For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?

Romans 8:25 But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.

...

Galatians 1:3 Grace be to you and peace from God the Father, and from our Lord Jesus Christ,

Galatians 1:4 Who gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver us from this present evil world, according to the will of God and our Father:

Galatians 1:5 To whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.

...

Philippians 3:20 For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ:

Philippians 3:21 Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.

...

1 Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

1 Thessalonians 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

1 Thessalonians 4:18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

As to the timing of salvation:

Acts 16:30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?

Acts 16:31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

Have you?

oatmeal
November 4th, 2015, 06:36 PM
of your salvation!
Where is it found in the Bible?
What is it and how is one saved?

Romans 10:9-10 is the means to receive the gift of salvation.

That gift is also referred to as the gift of eternal life, Romans 6:23

the gift of the Holy Spirit, Acts 2:38, John 7:38-39, Acts 11:17

Having eternal life is good news, having the power to be an effective witness for the lord Jesus Christ is good news, Acts 1:8

heir
November 4th, 2015, 06:43 PM
Romans 10:9-10 is the means to receive the gift of salvation.Nope. Romans 10:9-10 is neither the gospel of Christ (1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV), the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth, nor is it a formula for salvation. What you have there is the gospel of God. There is no mention of the why of the cross in Romans 10.

oatmeal
November 4th, 2015, 06:47 PM
Nope. Romans 10:9-10 is neither the gospel of Christ (1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV), the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth, nor is it a formula for salvation. What you have there is the gospel of God. There is no mention of the why of the cross in Romans 10.

Wow, only I Corinthians 15:1-4 is the gospel of Christ?

Is those the only four verses you kept when you threw the rest of you Bible away?

You are short changing yourself

fzappa13
November 4th, 2015, 07:30 PM
Those who don't believe in the three elements of the gospel declared and preached by Paul would be believing in vain. An example would be the "some" who did not believe in the resurrection of the dead:

1 Corinthians 15:12 Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead?

1 Corinthians 15:13 But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen:

1 Corinthians 15:14 And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain.

1 Corinthians 15:15 Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not.

1 Corinthians 15:16 For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised:

1 Corinthians 15:17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.


It's a positional truth for all who are saved!

This is incorrect. That is, unless you believe those who died before Christ's arrival and after His second are not to be saved. The reward of faith in a risen Christ is available only to those alive between His death and His return. Regardless, your argument still does not address the moment of salvation, only some sort of evidence of salvation via proper doctrine. It is important to remember that Jesus saves ... not doctrine.

... and BTW, you completely ducked my points concerning the passage YOU offered.


Again, a positional truth for those who have trusted the Lord after hearing and believing the word of truth, the gospel of our salvation. As to your question, we are already have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace:

We (the saved) look for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:

Titus 2:13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;

for the redemption of our body

You don't even see the verses you quote .... YOU ARE WAITING FOR THE RETURN OF CHRIST TO BE REDEEMED.


Romans 8:22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.

Romans 8:23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

Romans 8:24 For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?

Romans 8:25 But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.

...again WE ARE AWAITING OUR REDEMPTION



Galatians 1:3 Grace be to you and peace from God the Father, and from our Lord Jesus Christ,

Galatians 1:4 Who gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver us from this present evil world, according to the will of God and our Father:

Galatians 1:5 To whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.

...

I don't see what this has to do with the timing of our redemption.


Philippians 3:20 For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ:

Philippians 3:21 Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.

...

and when does this happen?


1 Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

1 Thessalonians 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

1 Thessalonians 4:18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.


These are the first to be redeemed. The first fruits. There will be others later.


As to the timing of salvation:

Acts 16:30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?

Acts 16:31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

It doesn't say "are saved" it says "shall be saved".


Have you?


I don't know and neither do you. I know who does but He hasn't let that cat out of the bag just yet.

fzappa13
November 5th, 2015, 01:27 AM
The good news? We shall be redeemed. When?

Luke 21:25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

fzappa13
November 5th, 2015, 01:50 AM
You hang your hat on Paul. Hear what he says about salvation.

1 Cor 9:22 To the weak became I as weak, that I might gain the weak: I am made all things to all men, that I might by all means save some.
23 And this I do for the gospel's sake, that I might be partaker thereof with you.
24 Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain.
25 And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible.
26 I therefore so run, not as uncertainly; so fight I, not as one that beateth the air:
27 But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.


Do these sound like the words of a man that thought his salvation was an accomplished fact?

fzappa13
November 5th, 2015, 01:59 AM
You hang you hat on Paul. Hear his words.

2Tim 4: I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;
2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.
3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.
5 But watch thou in all things, endure afflictions, do the work of an evangelist, make full proof of thy ministry.
6 For I am now ready to be offered, and the time of my departure is at hand.
7 I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith:
8 Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.


Only on his death bed did Paul claim the crown promised the faithful. A crown to be bestowed at Christ's return.

oatmeal
November 5th, 2015, 05:57 AM
Heir, it must really be easy to read the good news when you have only four verses in your Bible.

Evidently, for you, everything that Jesus Christ did for God, mankind, you, is not good news?

Being healed of blindness is not good news?

Being raised from the dead is not good news?

Having the promise of the Father is not good news?

Having the gift of eternal life is not good news?

Having a living hope for the future is not good news?

After I Thessalonians 4:13-18, to ever be with the Lord is not good news?

Time for you to rethink what good news is. Might I suggest you read the rest of scripture and find out what good news is.

heir
November 5th, 2015, 07:16 AM
The good news? We shall be redeemed. When?

Luke 21:25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.That's not talking about you or me...Matthew 15:24 KJV!

heir
November 5th, 2015, 07:17 AM
You hang your hat on Paul. Hear what he says about salvation.

1 Cor 9:22 To the weak became I as weak, that I might gain the weak: I am made all things to all men, that I might by all means save some.
23 And this I do for the gospel's sake, that I might be partaker thereof with you.
24 Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain.
25 And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible.
26 I therefore so run, not as uncertainly; so fight I, not as one that beateth the air:
27 But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.


Do these sound like the words of a man that thought his salvation was an accomplished fact?
1 Corinthians 1:18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

heir
November 5th, 2015, 07:25 AM
Heir, it must really be easy to read the good news when you have only four verses in your Bible.The gospel of Christ wherein we stand and by which we are saved is declared by Paul in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV. The truth of the gospel that Paul received by revelation of Jesus Christ is described at length in great detail throughout Romans through Philemon. One need not have the knowledge of the truth found in Romans through Philemon to be saved (saved, and come unto the knowledge of the truth is the order 1 Timothy 2:4 KJV), but trust the Lord believing the why of the cross (the cross is the power of God 1 Corinthians 1:18 KJV, 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV) unto salvation to every one that believeth (Romans 1:16 KJV).

heir
November 5th, 2015, 07:30 AM
You hang you hat on Paul. Hear his words.

2Tim 4: I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;
2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.
3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.
5 But watch thou in all things, endure afflictions, do the work of an evangelist, make full proof of thy ministry.
6 For I am now ready to be offered, and the time of my departure is at hand.
7 I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith:
8 Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.


Only on his death bed did Paul claim the crown promised the faithful. A crown to be bestowed at Christ's return.
Salvation is the gift of God (Ephesians 2:4-9 KJV). A crown is a reward (1 Corinthians 3:10-15 KJV, Colossians 3:24 KJV) .

heir
November 5th, 2015, 07:46 AM
Regardless, your argument still does not address the moment of salvation, only some sort of evidence of salvation via proper doctrine. It is important to remember that Jesus saves ... not doctrine.If the gospel of Christ is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth (and it is Romans 1:16 KJV) and the gospel by which we are saved (and it is) it stands to reason that when one trusts the Lord after hearing and believing IT, they are saved (and they are 1 Corinthians 1:18 KJV, 1 Corinthians 15:2 KJV, Ephesians 2:5 KJV, Ephesians 2:8 KJV). And not once have I imp[lied that doctrine saved. God will have all men be saved, AND come unto the knowledge of the truth (1 Timothy 2:4 KJV), not come unto the knowledge of the truth to be saved!


... and BTW, you completely ducked my points concerning the passage YOU offered.No, your goose is cooked by what saith the scripture.




You don't even see the verses you quote .... YOU ARE WAITING FOR THE RETURN OF CHRIST TO BE REDEEMED.

...again WE ARE AWAITING OUR REDEMPTIONONLY the redemption of our Body as the believer today already has redemption through His blood, even the forgiveness of sins (Ephesians 1:7 KJV). Do you even believe that?

fzappa13
November 5th, 2015, 07:54 AM
That's not talking about you or me...Matthew 15:24 KJV!

This was prior to his death. His death was an atonement for all who would avail themselves of it through faith. Do you not believe this?

fzappa13
November 5th, 2015, 08:01 AM
Originally Posted by fzappa13 View Post
You hang your hat on Paul. Hear what he says about salvation.

1 Cor 9:22 To the weak became I as weak, that I might gain the weak: I am made all things to all men, that I might by all means save some.
23 And this I do for the gospel's sake, that I might be partaker thereof with you.
24 Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain.
25 And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible.
26 I therefore so run, not as uncertainly; so fight I, not as one that beateth the air:
27 But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.


Do these sound like the words of a man that thought his salvation was an accomplished fact?


1 Corinthians 1:18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

A) You didn't answer the question.
B) You once again plucked a verse out of context
C) you still haven't offered text, in context or out, that indicates the timing of our redemption is at any time other than Christ's return

fzappa13
November 5th, 2015, 08:04 AM
Originally Posted by fzappa13 View Post
You hang you hat on Paul. Hear his words.

2Tim 4: I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;
2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.
3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.
5 But watch thou in all things, endure afflictions, do the work of an evangelist, make full proof of thy ministry.
6 For I am now ready to be offered, and the time of my departure is at hand.
7 I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith:
8 Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.


Only on his death bed did Paul claim the crown promised the faithful. A crown to be bestowed at Christ's return.


Salvation is the gift of God (Ephesians 2:4-9 KJV). A crown is a reward (1 Corinthians 3:10-15 KJV, Colossians 3:24 KJV) .

Again you ignore the scripture I offer as well as it's point and pluck a few verses from scripture that have nothing to do with the subject at hand ...

When are we redeemed?. Show me in scripture.

fzappa13
November 5th, 2015, 08:45 AM
If the gospel of Christ is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth (and it is Romans 1:16 KJV) and the gospel by which we are saved (and it is) it stands to reason that when one trusts the Lord after hearing and believing IT, they are saved (and they are 1 Corinthians 1:18 KJV, 1 Corinthians 15:2 KJV, Ephesians 2:5 KJV, Ephesians 2:8 KJV). And not once have I imp[lied that doctrine saved. God will have all men be saved, AND come unto the knowledge of the truth (1 Timothy 2:4 KJV), not come unto the knowledge of the truth to be saved!

"It stands to reason" … See? No scripture, just reasoning. Or, maybe better said, the doctrines of men. Like the ones Paul talked about. You toss inapplicable scripture citations around like Hagy. Show me scripture that points to the timing of our redemption. I have, but for some reason you won't even acknowledge them. Can you not see them or is there some doctrine that you have embraced which renders them invisible?




... and BTW, you completely ducked my points concerning the passage YOU offered.
No, your goose is cooked by what saith the scripture.

How so?




You don't even see the verses you quote .... YOU ARE WAITING FOR THE RETURN OF CHRIST TO BE REDEEMED.

...again WE ARE AWAITING OUR REDEMPTION

ONLY the redemption of our Body as the believer today already has redemption through His blood


Incorrect, we await much more than just the redemption of our body:

1 Cor 13: 10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.
11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.
12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

1 John 3:1 Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.
2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

Rev 6: 9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.


Study the white robes. They are the body of the resurrection. This body is not the only thing that is new in this arrangement.


Mark 2: 22 And no man putteth new wine into old bottles: else the new wine doth burst the bottles, and the wine is spilled, and the bottles will be marred: but new wine must be put into new bottles.



even the forgiveness of sins (Ephesians 1:7 KJV). Do you even believe that?

Yup

Nick M
November 5th, 2015, 09:34 AM
Wow.

So you aren't saved yet?

There is a lot of bad news in your good news thread. This is what Robert Pate is always harping about. Not you, the worker bees.

Zeke
November 5th, 2015, 10:35 AM
of your salvation!
Where is it found in the Bible?
What is it and how is one saved?

Depends on how you understand the terms used, dead taken literally gives the impression that it is speaking only about physical death, yet it could just as well be a metaphoric teaching about ones state of mind which could be dead/blind to the Spirit, Romans 12:2, Ephesians 4:23, Galatians 3:2, Ephesians 2:1, Colossians 2:13,Ephesians 2:5, Luke 15:24, Matt 8:22, etc.............The christian disregard for prior cultures that taught the Soul was imprisoned in the physical body in a state of Divine amnesia/hell/grave leaves the mind at the mercy of the Priest class teaching that flesh and blood can inherit the kingdom through a human sacrifice, and is blinded to the two aspects of the scripture which is stated in 2Cor 3:6, two births one by the flesh and one by the Spirit, under the guidance of two Fathers and Mothers, one flesh and one Spiritual, Galatians 4:24-28 explains it as being allegorical showing that Isaac was a symbol of the inner child born in the first born of the flesh Galatians 4:3, not an actual sibling tradition needs you to buy into it's history by looking back like lots wife, you dress both in a garb of two distinct bodies of flesh and blood when one is earthy and the other heavenly 1Cor 15:45, 2Cor 5:16, just like you looked for Santa in the flesh when you were still a child.

To be like Isaac one doesn't need to enter again through a womb of flesh to be reborn from a state of death. John 11:26, John 5:26, Galatians 4:6.

heir
November 5th, 2015, 12:32 PM
"It stands to reason" … See? No scripture, just reasoning. I've shown plenty of scripture of how we are saved, when and by what means. You believe not any of it which is why you still have not and cannot answer what is the gospel of YOUR salvation and why you believe not that anyone is saved presently even though Paul uses the present tense of "are saved" pertaining to the believer's salvation at least five times. You are nothing more than a troll.

heir
November 5th, 2015, 12:33 PM
Depends on how you understand the terms used, dead taken literally gives the impression that it is speaking only about physical death, yet it could just as well be a metaphoric teaching about ones state of mind which could be dead/blind to the Spirit, Romans 12:2, Ephesians 4:23, Galatians 3:2, Ephesians 2:1, Colossians 2:13,Ephesians 2:5, Luke 15:24, Matt 8:22, etc.............The christian disregard for prior cultures that taught the Soul was imprisoned in the physical body in a state of Divine amnesia/hell/grave leaves the mind at the mercy of the Priest class teaching that flesh and blood can inherit the kingdom through a human sacrifice, and is blinded to the two aspects of the scripture which is stated in 2Cor 3:6, two births one by the flesh and one by the Spirit, under the guidance of two Fathers and Mothers, one flesh and one Spiritual, Galatians 4:24-28 explains it as being allegorical showing that Isaac was a symbol of the inner child born in the first born of the flesh Galatians 4:3, not an actual sibling tradition needs you to buy into it's history by looking back like lots wife, you dress both in a garb of two distinct bodies of flesh and blood when one is earthy and the other heavenly 1Cor 15:45, 2Cor 5:16, just like you looked for Santa in the flesh when you were still a child.

To be like Isaac one doesn't need to enter again through a womb of flesh to be reborn from a state of death. John 11:26, John 5:26, Galatians 4:6.No good news of your salvation is bad news.

fzappa13
November 5th, 2015, 01:51 PM
I've shown plenty of scripture of how we are saved, when and by what means. You believe not any of it which is why you still have not and cannot answer what is the gospel of YOUR salvation and why you believe not that anyone is saved presently even though Paul uses the present tense of "are saved" pertaining to the believer's salvation at least five times. You are nothing more than a troll.

Now, now, just because I rubbed your nose in scripture and you have no answer for it doesn't mean you have to start calling me names ... oh, wait, that's right ... that's how we "truth smack".

patrick jane
November 5th, 2015, 07:28 PM
Now, now, just because I rubbed your nose in scripture and you have no answer for it doesn't mean you have to start calling me names ... oh, wait, that's right ... that's how we "truth smack".

Romans 10:9-10 KJV - Ephesians 1:7 KJV - Ephesians 1:13 KJV -


1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV -

fzappa13
November 5th, 2015, 07:32 PM
Romans 10:9-10 KJV - Ephesians 1:7 KJV - Ephesians 1:13 KJV -


1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV -

Didja read the thread?

oatmeal
November 5th, 2015, 07:45 PM
The gospel of Christ wherein we stand and by which we are saved is declared by Paul in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV. The truth of the gospel that Paul received by revelation of Jesus Christ is described at length in great detail throughout Romans through Philemon. One need not have the knowledge of the truth found in Romans through Philemon to be saved (saved, and come unto the knowledge of the truth is the order 1 Timothy 2:4 KJV), but trust the Lord believing the why of the cross (the cross is the power of God 1 Corinthians 1:18 KJV, 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV) unto salvation to every one that believeth (Romans 1:16 KJV).

Why play the game then?

Romans through Thessalonians is the good news specifically to those born again of God's spirit.

Romans 10:9-10 is still the how of receiving the gift of salvation/eternal life.

Adding anything to those two elements not increase the size of the gift, nor does it make it a better gift. We all receive the measure of faith, Romans 12:3

Having received the gift of salvation, we must energize, work out that internal gift if we are to see the benefits of it in our present lifetime. Philippians 2:12-13,

Hence Romans thru Thessalonians is the way to energize that gift in us.

heir
November 6th, 2015, 01:53 PM
Romans 10:9-10 is still the how of receiving the gift of salvation/eternal life.Nope. Trusting the Lord after hearing and believing the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation (1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV) is what seals the deal!

Ephesians 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

Ephesians 1:14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

Idolater
November 6th, 2015, 02:40 PM
Romans 3:26!

of your salvation!
Where is it found in the Bible?
What is it and how is one saved?

oatmeal
November 6th, 2015, 03:23 PM
You hang your hat on Paul. Hear what he says about salvation.

1 Cor 9:22 To the weak became I as weak, that I might gain the weak: I am made all things to all men, that I might by all means save some.
23 And this I do for the gospel's sake, that I might be partaker thereof with you.
24 Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain.
25 And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible.
26 I therefore so run, not as uncertainly; so fight I, not as one that beateth the air:
27 But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.


Do these sound like the words of a man that thought his salvation was an accomplished fact?

Actually it is the words of a man that knows that his salvation is an accomplished truth.

He is not talking about his own salvation but sharing God's word that others might receive the gift of salvation.

Being a "castaway" does not refer to, as some erroneously believe, to a loss of salvation but is literally, disqualified from the competition.

1 Corinthians 9:25

And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible.

2 Timothy 2:5

And if a man also strive for masteries, yet is he not crowned, except he strive lawfully.

If we are to strive for the mastery, we must strive lawfully.

Note Paul is not talking about striving to earn or keep his salvation but for the mastery.

Mastery over what?

His old man nature, his adversary and striving to do God's will in every area of his life according to the gift of Christ.

He is striving to achieve a crown, not salvation.

A crown for winning others

fzappa13
November 6th, 2015, 05:03 PM
Actually it is the words of a man that knows that his salvation is an accomplished truth.

He is not talking about his own salvation but sharing God's word that others might receive the gift of salvation.

Being a "castaway" does not refer to, as some erroneously believe, to a loss of salvation but is literally, disqualified from the competition.

1 Corinthians 9:25

And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible.

2 Timothy 2:5

And if a man also strive for masteries, yet is he not crowned, except he strive lawfully.

If we are to strive for the mastery, we must strive lawfully.

Note Paul is not talking about striving to earn or keep his salvation but for the mastery.

Mastery over what?

His old man nature, his adversary and striving to do God's will in every area of his life according to the gift of Christ.

He is striving to achieve a crown, not salvation.

A crown for winning others

Well, that's real nice that we have you here to tell us what he really meant ... instead of what he plainly said. That's pretty big business these days ... selling "Christianity lite" ... all of the reward with none of the sacrifice. Spiritual cotton candy.

He said what he said. Hear it or don't ... at your own peril.

fzappa13
November 6th, 2015, 05:19 PM
BTW ... here's your crown:

1 Peter 5:1 The elders which are among you I exhort, who am also an elder, and a witness of the sufferings of Christ, and also a partaker of the glory that shall be revealed:

2 Feed the flock of God which is among you, taking the oversight thereof, not by constraint, but willingly; not for filthy lucre, but of a ready mind;

3 Neither as being lords over God's heritage, but being ensamples to the flock.

4 And when the chief Shepherd shall appear, ye shall receive a crown of glory that fadeth not away.

patrick jane
November 6th, 2015, 06:43 PM
BTW ... here's your crown:

1 Peter 5:1 The elders which are among you I exhort, who am also an elder, and a witness of the sufferings of Christ, and also a partaker of the glory that shall be revealed:

2 Feed the flock of God which is among you, taking the oversight thereof, not by constraint, but willingly; not for filthy lucre, but of a ready mind;

3 Neither as being lords over God's heritage, but being ensamples to the flock.

4 And when the chief Shepherd shall appear, ye shall receive a crown of glory that fadeth not away.

Philippians 3:14 KJV - Philippians 3:15 KJV -

patrick jane
November 6th, 2015, 06:56 PM
Depends on how you understand the terms used,

For future reference, the gospel of our salvation is this: Hearing, understanding and believing this will seal you with that Holy Spirit of promise -

1 Corinthians 15:1-2 KJV - 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV -

that is the gospel of our salvation and again, hearing it, understanding it and believing and trusting in Christ saves you !!!

Romans 10:9-10 KJV - Ephesians 1:7 KJV - Ephesians 1:13 KJV -

oatmeal
November 9th, 2015, 05:21 AM
Nope. Trusting the Lord after hearing and believing the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation (1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV) is what seals the deal!

Ephesians 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

Ephesians 1:14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

Should you ever read Romans 10:9-10, and actually pay attention to the words and their meanings, you would not disagree, but rather joy and rejoice on how simple receiving salvation is.

See for yourself.

That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

There are only two conditions to meet.

1. Confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus

2. Believe in your heart God raised him from the dead.

What do you then receive?

Thou shalt be saved.

See how simple God made it!

It is too simple for those who do not understand nor accept God's grace.

Religious people want to do works to earn it.

They refuse God's love and compassion.

Read, really read it for once.

When some reads Romans 10:9-10 and does what is says by


Trusting the Lord after hearing and believing the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation

they shall be saved.

oatmeal
November 9th, 2015, 05:29 AM
Well, that's real nice that we have you here to tell us what he really meant ... instead of what he plainly said. That's pretty big business these days ... selling "Christianity lite" ... all of the reward with none of the sacrifice. Spiritual cotton candy.

He said what he said. Hear it or don't ... at your own peril.

If you don't believe Paul was saved, that is your choice.

If you don't believe Paul met the requirements of Romans 10:9-10, why do you bother with scripture at all?

If you do not believe the words of the apostle Paul, why should you believe any of scripture?

II Timothy 1:9

Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

Not only had he (and we) been saved but he also called us with a holy calling.

You know what man's greatest spiritual problem is?

They don't believe God's word.

They don't trust it, they think it is man's writings, not God's words.

I Corinthians 9 is Paul speaking not of Paul trying to earn (it cannot be earned, it is a gift, Ephesians 2:8-9), or attempting to receive the gift of salvation (he already meet the requirements to receive salvation on the road to Damascus when Jesus Christ himself came down from the right hand of the throne of God to witness to Paul) but a man concerned and working to fulfill his holy calling because he was saved and appreciated what God in Christ had done for him, Ephesians 2:10, and it is about earning a crown for fulfilling his holy calling.

achduke
November 9th, 2015, 06:22 AM
That's not talking about you or me...Matthew 15:24 KJV!

Are you sure your ancestors were never part of the LOST house of Israel?

heir
November 9th, 2015, 07:15 AM
Romans 3:26!Where is the righteousness of God revealed? What about the Lord did you "believeth"?

heir
November 9th, 2015, 07:17 AM
Are you sure your ancestors were never part of the LOST house of Israel?Definitely not!

Ephesians 2:11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;

Ephesians 2:12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

heir
November 9th, 2015, 07:25 AM
Should you ever read Romans 10:9-10, and actually pay attention to the words and their meanings, you would not disagree, but rather joy and rejoice on how simple receiving salvation is.
I believed Romans 10:9-10 for years believing WHO Jesus Christ is (which is what Romans 10:9-10 KJV is-the gospel of God Romans 1:1-4 KJV) and was NOT saved. I had not trusted the Lord believing the WHY of the cross which is NOT in Romans 10:9-10 KJV (doesn't tell us why Christ died), but 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV. I was never told the good news of my salvation was that CHRIST DIED FOR MY SINS, WAS BURIED and ROSE AGAIN THE THIRD DAY. I was told it was Romans 10:9-10 by religious men who don't preach the gospel of Christ as the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth. Seemingly, their testimony of the Lord is only that of WHO the Lord is and not WHAT He did for us! And here you are, doing much the same as Romans 10:9-10 DOES NOT SAY WHY CHRIST DIED.


That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.Context of Romans 10 (we Gentiles are not in the picture):

Romans 10:1 Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved.

Romans 10:2 For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.

fzappa13
November 9th, 2015, 11:16 AM
If you don't believe Paul was saved, that is your choice.

If you don't believe Paul met the requirements of Romans 10:9-10, why do you bother with scripture at all?

If you do not believe the words of the apostle Paul, why should you believe any of scripture?

II Timothy 1:9

Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

Not only had he (and we) been saved but he also called us with a holy calling.

You know what man's greatest spiritual problem is?

They don't believe God's word.

They don't trust it, they think it is man's writings, not God's words.

I Corinthians 9 is Paul speaking not of Paul trying to earn (it cannot be earned, it is a gift, Ephesians 2:8-9), or attempting to receive the gift of salvation (he already meet the requirements to receive salvation on the road to Damascus when Jesus Christ himself came down from the right hand of the throne of God to witness to Paul) but a man concerned and working to fulfill his holy calling because he was saved and appreciated what God in Christ had done for him, Ephesians 2:10, and it is about earning a crown for fulfilling his holy calling.

So, you want to take a crack at the posts Heir ducked then?

Zeke
November 9th, 2015, 12:36 PM
patrick jane;4511136]For future reference, the gospel of our salvation is this: Hearing, understanding and believing this will seal you with that Holy Spirit of promise -

Yet Galatians 1:12 reveals how this happens, we don't receive or hear it from man, only the spirit can awaken the Divine Seed in us.
The traditional dogma is received and learned from men which is why Acts 9:1-31 was provided to pervert Paul's conversion experience which has him consulting with men to learn what happened to him, when Galatians 1:15-24 tells a different order of events, immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood, yet Acts has him doing that very thing from a man, hung out with the bros and then went preaching in the synagogues.


1 Corinthians 15:1-2 KJV - 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV -

And that happens within us not on some hill in the past observable kingdom Luke 17:20-21, The mystery of Christ within you Colossians 1:27, 1:18, the first born from the dead (not a dead physical corpse) Ephesians 2:1, just like prior mystery schools taught it long before Rome made it into a singular man literally sacrificed, it was taught as a inward struggle of death and rebirth (Luke 15:45) just like Galatians 4:24-28 also points out if you can get the literal out of you're mind, Isaac isn't a physical birth and neither was Jesus unless you want to call him a liar (Matt 11:11) concerning who represented the best born of Hagar the bond woman of the flesh, and what Jesus represented from above (Sarah) like Isaac both called the Promise that takes place in us 1Cor 15:45, what part of 2Cor 3:6 escapes you're discernment? the field holds the pearl and it is only found if you clear away the literal field.


that is the gospel of our salvation and again, hearing it, understanding it and believing and trusting in Christ saves you !!!

Romans 10:9-10 KJV - Ephesians 1:7 KJV - [B]Ephesians 1:13 KJV

That is the gospel of tradition that is correct, trusting in the Christ/I am within is the universal truth that is all things to all people instead of the exclusive rights clause invented by Rome that still infects the biggest percent of christian dogmas.

aikido7
November 9th, 2015, 12:39 PM
of your salvation!
Where is it found in the Bible?
What is it and how is one saved?Salvation is all about transformation in this life.

Jesus offered and granted salvation to many before he was crucified in Jerusalem.

In my opinion, he himself does not seem to have sanctioned a blood sacrifice for sin.

patrick jane
November 9th, 2015, 12:42 PM
Salvation is all about transformation in this life.

Jesus offered and granted salvation to many before he was crucified in Jerusalem.

In my opinion, he himself does not seem to have sanctioned a blood sacrifice for sin.

:confused:

Right Divider
November 9th, 2015, 01:18 PM
BTW ... here's your crown:

1 Peter 5:1 The elders which are among you I exhort, who am also an elder, and a witness of the sufferings of Christ, and also a partaker of the glory that shall be revealed:

2 Feed the flock of God which is among you, taking the oversight thereof, not by constraint, but willingly; not for filthy lucre, but of a ready mind;

3 Neither as being lords over God's heritage, but being ensamples to the flock.

4 And when the chief Shepherd shall appear, ye shall receive a crown of glory that fadeth not away.
Peter is ONE of the TWELVE apostles that will judge the TWELVE tribes of ISRAEL. His message was written TO THEM and FOR THEM.

Paul never ONCE calls US sheep or Jesus OUR shepherd.

Nick M
November 9th, 2015, 01:34 PM
Paul never ONCE calls US sheep or Jesus OUR shepherd.

He address him as The Lord Jesus Christ.

achduke
November 9th, 2015, 01:35 PM
Paul never ONCE calls US sheep or Jesus OUR shepherd.

Romans 8:36 As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.

heir
November 9th, 2015, 01:37 PM
Salvation is all about transformation in this life.That's not so. See Romans 5:9 KJV


In my opinion, he himself does not seem to have sanctioned a blood sacrifice for sin.You have a lousy opinion of what God through the Lord Jesus Christ accomplished.

Romans 3:21-24 KJV, Romans 4:25 KJV, Romans 6:23 KJV, 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV, 2 Corinthians 5:19 KJV, 2 Corinthians 5:21 KJV, 1 Timothy 2:4-6 KJV, 2 Timothy 1:9-10 KJV

heir
November 9th, 2015, 01:40 PM
:confused:

Sad, isn't it? He's a believe notter. He has at some point in his life heard the glorious gospel of Christ, but rejected it and is now blinded because of it (2 Corinthians 4:3-4 KJV).

aikido7
November 9th, 2015, 01:43 PM
:confused:

Repentance before God and a contrite heart
come from Jesus's own words on the subject.

The fact that Christians rarely acknowledge or pay attention to Jesus's own teachings prevents believers from knowing what he actually taught.

patrick jane
November 9th, 2015, 01:45 PM
Repentance before God and a contrite heart
come from Jesus's own words on the subject.

The fact that Christians rarely acknowledge or pay attention to Jesus's own teachings prevents believers from knowing what he actually taught.

That's what meshak tells us !!!

aikido7
November 9th, 2015, 01:47 PM
That's what meshak tells us !!!I only remember when she presented just a few of the many anti-poverty teachings, everyone piled on. And actually made fun of her hat?

When I have used Jesus's original ethical teachings for evidence of my claims, no one here has yet to read them or let them resonate with them at all.

aikido7
November 9th, 2015, 01:51 PM
That's not so. See Romans 5:9 KJV I see Paul's letters as evidence of his own interpretation of what Jesus meant to HIM.

I tend to pay closer attention to the original source of our faith.


You have a lousy opinion of what God through the Lord Jesus Christ accomplished.


Noted. I have my own unique theology as do you yourself.

Romans 3:21-24 KJV, Romans 4:25 KJV, Romans 6:23 KJV, 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV, 2 Corinthians 5:19 KJV, 2 Corinthians 5:21 KJV, 1 Timothy 2:4-6 KJV, 2 Timothy 1:9-10 KJVPaul wrote in the 50s and some of his letters have been found to be clear forgeries by his later followers who signed his name to their own thinking.

Which wasn't, by the way, such a rare thing in the ancient world.

Finally, the "Good News" was clearly stated in the opening of the Gospel of Mark. Mark's gospel was the earliest written--about the year 70 or 80.

achduke
November 9th, 2015, 01:59 PM
I see Paul's letters as evidence of his own interpretation of what Jesus meant to HIM.

I tend to pay closer attention to the original source of our faith.



Paul wrote in the 50s and some of his letters have been found to be clear forgeries by his later followers who signed his name to their own thinking.

Which wasn't, by the way, such a rare thing in the ancient world.

Finally, the "Good News" was clearly stated in the opening of the Gospel of Mark. Mark's gospel was the earliest written--about the year 70 or 80.

What is wrong with Romans? Romans 6:1 clears up Romans 5:9.

Romans 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? 2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

heir
November 9th, 2015, 02:07 PM
I see Paul's letters as evidence of his own interpretation of what Jesus meant to HIM.

I tend to pay closer attention to the original source of our faith.You mean you don't believe all scripture.




Paul wrote in the 50s and some of his letters have been found to be clear forgeries by his later followers who signed his name to their own thinking.Liar!

2 Timothy 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

2 Timothy 3:17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

...



2 Peter 1:21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

2 Peter 3:15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;

2 Peter 3:16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.



Finally, the "Good News" was clearly stated in the opening of the Gospel of Mark. Mark's gospel was the earliest written--about the year 70 or 80.Wrong "good news" and wrong again!

Paul's gospel is not after man, neither was he taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ!


Galatians 1:11 But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man.

Galatians 1:12 For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.


It was a mystery which was kept secret since the world began, but now is made manifest!

Romans 16:25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,

Romans 16:26 But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:

Romans 16:27 To God only wise, be glory through Jesus Christ for ever. Amen.


And Paul tells us why it was a mystery!


1 Corinthians 2:6 Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought:

1 Corinthians 2:7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:

1 Corinthians 2:8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

aikido7
November 9th, 2015, 02:11 PM
What is wrong with Romans? Romans 6:1 clears up Romans 5:9.

Romans 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? 2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?I don't look at ANY part of the Bible as "wrong." Why would you assume such a thing?

Everything in the Bible I have to take seriously, however much it might challenge my behavior or when it clearly contradicts the authentic "voice print" of Jesus.

achduke
November 9th, 2015, 02:34 PM
I don't look at ANY part of the Bible as "wrong." Why would you assume such a thing?

Everything in the Bible I have to take seriously, however much it might challenge my behavior or when it clearly contradicts the authentic "voice print" of Jesus.



Originally Posted by aikido7 View Post
I see Paul's letters as evidence of his own interpretation of what Jesus meant to HIM.

Because of the above^ You think Paul is using his own interpretation even though he has the Holy Spirit to lead him.

Right Divider
November 9th, 2015, 03:28 PM
Romans 8:36 As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.
Look it up. The WE there is NOT US, it is all about Israel.
Rom 8:36 KJV As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.

Psa 44:22 KJV Yea, for thy sake are we killed all the day long; we are counted as sheep for the slaughter.

Nick M
November 9th, 2015, 03:55 PM
Are you sure your ancestors were never part of the LOST house of Israel?

Yep.

Nick M
November 9th, 2015, 03:59 PM
Look it up. The WE there is NOT US, it is all about Israel.
Rom 8:36 KJV As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.

Psa 44:22 KJV Yea, for thy sake are we killed all the day long; we are counted as sheep for the slaughter.


This is the importance of the study of Romans.


First is his audience.


7 To all who are in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints:
13 Now I do not want you to be unaware, brethren, that I often planned to come to you (but was hindered until now), that I might have some fruit among you also, just as among the other Gentiles.

They are gentiles in Rome. Gentiles mean those that are not Israel. But they were gentiles that were proselytized to Israel as he says here:


17 Indeed you are called a Jew, and rest on the law, and make your boast in God,

So these gentiles are going to be familiar to the promises made to Israel. They came to God through Israel, exalting her and keeping of the law. What Paul wants to do is share his gospel with these gentiles. His gospel is not the same as Israel’s good news. They have the same savior but a different ministry and mission. They in Rome knew they were to show their faith by their works. They did not have his good news.


15 So, as much as is in me, I am ready to preach the gospel to you who are in Rome also.


The audience is gentiles that were proselytes to Israel, they know of the law and they know they are required to keep it. They are called Jew as a result. And Paul is now ready to share his gospel with them.

Right Divider
November 9th, 2015, 04:14 PM
This is the importance of the study of Romans.
Indeed. It also shows the need to actually study the scripture and not just do a word search for 'sheep'.

fzappa13
November 9th, 2015, 05:34 PM
Originally Posted by fzappa13
BTW ... here's your crown:

1 Peter 5:1 The elders which are among you I exhort, who am also an elder, and a witness of the sufferings of Christ, and also a partaker of the glory that shall be revealed:

2 Feed the flock of God which is among you, taking the oversight thereof, not by constraint, but willingly; not for filthy lucre, but of a ready mind;

3 Neither as being lords over God's heritage, but being ensamples to the flock.

4 And when the chief Shepherd shall appear, ye shall receive a crown of glory that fadeth not away.




Peter is ONE of the TWELVE apostles that will judge the TWELVE tribes of ISRAEL. His message was written TO THEM and FOR THEM.

Paul never ONCE calls US sheep or Jesus OUR shepherd.

To begin with, the twelve tribes were well past scattered at that point and will be when Christ returns. It was not possible to address them as a body in Peter's day in any way that they could hear in that they themselves likely didn't even know who they were at that time … the woman at the well being an obvious exception. That said, If you want to know whom one is writing to it customary to read the first of the letter. Let's have a look:

1 Peter 1: 1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,
2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.


Strangers? Does that sound like he's talking to his kin? Elect? Who are the elect in your opinion? A subject worthy of its own thread. Grace? Who receives grace? The twelve tribes? The rest of us? Both?

As it concerns sheep you've got two choices … your either a sheep or a goat in the resurrection … choose wisely. Another subject worthy of it own thread but you can start with Mat 25.

oatmeal
November 9th, 2015, 07:18 PM
I believed Romans 10:9-10 for years believing WHO Jesus Christ is (which is what Romans 10:9-10 KJV is-the gospel of God Romans 1:1-4 KJV) and was NOT saved. I had not trusted the Lord believing the WHY of the cross which is NOT in Romans 10:9-10 KJV (doesn't tell us why Christ died), but 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV. I was never told the good news of my salvation was that CHRIST DIED FOR MY SINS, WAS BURIED and ROSE AGAIN THE THIRD DAY. I was told it was Romans 10:9-10 by religious men who don't preach the gospel of Christ as the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth. Seemingly, their testimony of the Lord is only that of WHO the Lord is and not WHAT He did for us! And here you are, doing much the same as Romans 10:9-10 DOES NOT SAY WHY CHRIST DIED.

Context of Romans 10 (we Gentiles are not in the picture):

Romans 10:1 Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved.

Romans 10:2 For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.

Heir,


I believed Romans 10:9-10 for years believing WHO Jesus Christ is (which is what Romans 10:9-10 KJV is-the gospel of God Romans 1:1-4 KJV) and was NOT saved.

Believing who Jesus Christ is is only the first half of Romans 10:9. Therefore, if that is actually all you did or understood from Romans 10:9, then you were not saved at that point.

Confessing the Lord Jesus does not get anyone saved for there are two requirements, the other being that we believe in our heart that God raised him from the dead.

You are right, Romans 10:9-10 does not tell us why Jesus willingly obeyed His Father to die on our behalf.

Personally, I believe that there are many people, church goers, even present day God rejectors who at one time did meet the two requirements of Romans 10:9 and have received the gift of salvation, but they do not yet know it. I John 5:13. Again, personally, I believe that I received the gift of salvation when in grade school. I doubt I understood the word salvation or was even concerned about being saved, but neither of those two issues are one of the two requirements of receiving salvation. We can receive the gift of salvation without knowing what it is we received, even as we receive a gift nicely wrapped without knowing what is in it.


I had not trusted the Lord believing the WHY of the cross which is NOT in Romans 10:9-10 KJV (doesn't tell us why Christ died), but 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV.

Again personally, did I have some huge backlog of sins at the age of say 7 that compelled me to seek salvation? No. But confessing the Lord Jesus and believing in my heart that God raised him from the dead seemed a good idea to me so I did it. Was I familiar with Romans 10:9? No, I was not, but as long as I had heard that Jesus is Lord .... I could believe that without knowing why the cross.

You are right, there is no mention of the cross in Romans 10:9-10.

What does a person need to know to reach the two conclusions? Certainly, knowing the cross could be part of realizing that Jesus is Lord but we must get beyond the cross and realize that God raised him from the dead.

I am quite sure, having attended RCC parochial school that I would have learned of the cross and other things.

You are right, Romans 10:9-10 does not tell us why Jesus willingly obeyed His Father to die on our behalf.

But here we must learn that that is not the point of Romans 10:9-10.

The point of Romans 10:9-10 is to tell us how to receive salvation, it most certainly does not tell us all we need to know to reach the conclusions of Romans 10:9-10. The information we need to reach those two conclusions is in many other passages of scripture, not in Romans 10:9.

If some one asks me how to receive the gift of salvation from God, I tell them to do Romans 10:9-10, those are the only two requirements to receive.

However, you point out correctly that we must know enough about the whats, whys, whos, etc. to reach those conclusions.

If someone asked me how I reached those conclusions then I would have to tell them much much more than Romans 10:9.

Which if I now read you correctly is your point.

Do I read you correctly?

Right Divider
November 9th, 2015, 08:42 PM
To begin with, the twelve tribes were well past scattered at that point and will be when Christ returns. It was not possible to address them as a body in Peter's day in any way that they could hear in that they themselves likely didn't even know who they were at that time … the woman at the well being an obvious exception. That said, If you want to know whom one is writing to it customary to read the first of the letter. Let's have a look:

1 Peter 1: 1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,
2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

Strangers? Does that sound like he's talking to his kin? Elect? Who are the elect in your opinion? A subject worthy of its own thread. Grace? Who receives grace? The twelve tribes? The rest of us? Both?

As it concerns sheep you've got two choices … your either a sheep or a goat in the resurrection … choose wisely. Another subject worthy of it own thread but you can start with Mat 25.
You show an extraordinary combination of high regard for you own opinion and an extreme lack of knowledge.

Of course Peter calls them stranger, they were ALL in foreign lands (as he clearly spells out in verse one). Not too hard to understand.

Once AGAIN, Paul NEVER even ONCE refers to believers in the dispensation of the grace of God as sheep. But no doubt, that is hard for you to understand.

Regarding Peter's reference to "elect":
Isa 45:4 KJV For Jacob my servant's sake, and Israel mine elect, I have even called thee by thy name: I have surnamed thee, though thou hast not known me.
This the 'elect' that he is writing to... you know, the TWELVE tribes of ISRAEL.

fzappa13
November 9th, 2015, 08:59 PM
You show an extraordinary combination of high regard for you own opinion and an extreme lack of knowledge.

Of course Peter calls them stranger, they were ALL in foreign lands (as he clearly spells out in verse one). Not too hard to understand.

Once AGAIN, Paul NEVER even ONCE refers to believers in the dispensation of the grace of God as sheep. But no doubt, that is hard for you to understand.

Regarding Peter's reference to "elect":
Isa 45:4 KJV For Jacob my servant's sake, and Israel mine elect, I have even called thee by thy name: I have surnamed thee, though thou hast not known me.
This the 'elect' that he is writing to... you know, the TWELVE tribes of ISRAEL.

A) He is addressing foreigners .. I don't know about you but that is not how I would address my brethren ... unless I was addressing gentile brethren.

B) You ducked my points about about sheep/goats, elect and grace. I think that telling.

C) As it regards my knowledge of the word of God I think your knowledge of that subject sufficiently sparse to label your estimation of it premature at best. After all, you know little of my contributions to this site over the years. Just because you disagree with someone doesn't necessitate them being ignorant. There are other possibilities.

disturbo
November 9th, 2015, 09:00 PM
Regarding Peter's reference to "elect":
Isa 45:4 KJV For Jacob my servant's sake, and Israel mine elect, I have even called thee by thy name: I have surnamed thee, though thou hast not known me.
This the 'elect' that he is writing to... you know, the TWELVE tribes of ISRAEL.

The only thing you understand is the fabricated mess of pre-tribulationism. That's why you pervert the words of Peter and ultimately God's Word.

The elect Peter is talking about is Christians.

The 'elect' always refers to Christians in the New Testament. The word elect is the same word as chosen and in every verse I looked at it always referred to Christians and a few times to angels and Christ. It's the same word as chosen in the NT.

The word elect is 'eklektos' which means...

1) picked out, chosen
a) chosen by
God,
1) to obtain salvation through Christ
a)
Christians are called "chosen or elect" of God
2) the
Messiah in called "elect", as appointed by God to the most exalted office conceivable
3) choice, select, i.e. the best of its kind or class, excellence preeminent: applied to certain individual Christians

The word elect, chosen-'eklektos,' is used in the following verses in the NT where it always refers to Christians... whether Jew or gentile!

1 Peter 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

Titus 1:1 Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness;

Romans 8:33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

2 Timothy 2:10 Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.

Check also...

Matthew 20:16, John 13:18, 15:16, Acts 15:22, 15:25, Romans 8:33, 16:13, 1 Corinthians 1:27-28, Ephesians 1:4, Colossians 3:12, James 2:5, 2 Timothy 2:10, Titus 1:1, 1 Peter 1:2, 2:9, 5:13, Revelation 17:14.

If God wanted the elect of Mathew 24 or Peter to mean Jews, He would have used a different Greek word. Probably this one...

1445. Hebraios heb-rah'-yos from
1443; a Hebræan (i.e. Hebrew) or Jew:--Hebrew.

Now use a little common sense and READ 1 Peter 1:2...Notice the things I've emphasized and explain to me HOW that can imply ISRAEL!

1 Peter 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

My aim to to make it onto all four categories of your undersirables list!

achduke
November 9th, 2015, 09:00 PM
Look it up. The WE there is NOT US, it is all about Israel.
Rom 8:36 KJV As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.

Psa 44:22 KJV Yea, for thy sake are we killed all the day long; we are counted as sheep for the slaughter.


I do not believe that there is a difference between Israel and the Gentile believers. We are all Israel and we are all grafted onto the root.

Still where do you get that the We is Israel? Romans 1:13 says among other gentiles implying they are gentiles also. This is the context throughout the chapters. Chapter 8 is about being spiritual. Do you believe that only Israel is spiritual? Does that mean the believing Gentiles are in the flesh?

Romans 1:13 Now I would not have you ignorant, brethren, that oftentimes I purposed to come unto you, (but was let hitherto,) that I might have some fruit among you also, even as among other Gentiles.

aikido7
November 9th, 2015, 09:00 PM
You mean you don't believe all scripture.


Liar!
Do you believe Jesus when he said "Why do you call ME good? Only God is good."
How do you interpret him when he said "Love your enemies"?
What about his admonition to "Pray to the Father in secret"?
Do you profess love for God and at the same time remain enslaved to your bank account? ( "You cannot love both God and mammon.").

Learn how to be an adult Christian and instead of calling me a "Liar," simply say something like "When you say ___________, I have trouble believing you."

Name calling has no place in good communication skills.

disturbo
November 9th, 2015, 09:03 PM
A) He is addressing foreigners .. I don't know about you but that is not how I would address my brethren ... unless I was addressing gentile brethren.

B) You ducked my points about about sheep/goats, elect and grace. I think that telling.

He doesn't answer questions that debunk his beliefs.

aikido7
November 9th, 2015, 09:04 PM
Because of the above^ You think Paul is using his own interpretation even though he has the Holy Spirit to lead him.That's what it's all about: the interpretations, opinions and theologies of inspired men.

Even translations are opinions. Take a look at any Christian bookstore and take note of the different translations and versions of the Bible.
Take a look at the diversity on TOL, for gosh sakes!

disturbo
November 9th, 2015, 09:05 PM
I do not believe that there is a difference between Israel and the Gentile believers. We are all Israel and we are all grafted onto the root.

Romans 1:13 Now I would not have you ignorant, brethren, that oftentimes I purposed to come unto you, (but was let hitherto,) that I might have some fruit among you also, even as among other Gentiles.

You are right. The elect refers to ALL those who have accepted Christ whether Jew or gentile.

heir
November 9th, 2015, 09:28 PM
I do not believe that there is a difference between Israel and the Gentile believers. We are all Israel and we are all grafted onto the root. What a mess!

heir
November 9th, 2015, 09:30 PM
Learn how to be an adult Christian and instead of calling me a "Liar," simply say something like "When you say ___________, I have trouble believing you."

Name calling has no place in good communication skills.

Acts 13:9 Then Saul, (who also is called Paul,) filled with the Holy Ghost, set his eyes on him.

Acts 13:10 And said, O full of all subtilty and all mischief, thou child of the devil, thou enemy of all righteousness, wilt thou not cease to pervert the right ways of the Lord?

achduke
November 9th, 2015, 09:31 PM
What a mess!

Please share! Do you not believe we are one body? Do you not believe we are grafted onto the root? What is the purpose of segregating yourself from the body?

heir
November 9th, 2015, 09:39 PM
Please share! Do you not believe we are one body? No, not with Israel, but those to whom Paul was first sent during the acts provoking ministry. We are fellowheirs and of the same Body with them by the gospel (Ephesians 3:6 KJV)
Do you not believe we are grafted onto the root? We're not grafted into anything, but baptized by one Spirit into one Body (1 Corinthians 12:13 KJV).
What is the purpose of segregating yourself from the body?I don't. I am a member of the Body of Christ (1 Corinthians 12:27 KJV).

Right Divider
November 9th, 2015, 09:46 PM
A) He is addressing foreigners .. I don't know about you but that is not how I would address my brethren ... unless I was addressing gentile brethren.

The reason that he is addressing them AS STRANGERS is because HIS kinsmen were dispersed into FOREIGN lands.


B) You ducked my points about about sheep/goats, elect and grace. I think that telling.

No, I did not. I showed you what Peter meant by HIS use of 'elect'. Here is is AGAIN since you didn't seem to read it the first time.
Isa 45:4 KJV For Jacob my servant's sake, and Israel mine elect, I have even called thee by thy name: I have surnamed thee, though thou hast not known me.
There is NO sense in me trying to explain anything else until you can understand these simple things.


C) As it regards my knowledge of the word of God I think your knowledge of that subject sufficiently sparse to label your estimation of it premature at best. After all, you know little of my contributions to this site over the years. Just because you disagree with someone doesn't necessitate them being ignorant. There are other possibilities.
I'm so proud of you.
1Pe 2:5-12 KJV Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ. (6) Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded. (7) Unto you therefore which believe he is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner, (8) And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed. (9) But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light: (10) Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy. (11) Dearly beloved, I beseech you as strangers and pilgrims, abstain from fleshly lusts, which war against the soul; (12) Having your conversation honest among the Gentiles: that, whereas they speak against you as evildoers, they may by your good works, which they shall behold, glorify God in the day of visitation.
Peter is clearing referring to ISRAEL here, as in:
Exo 19:5-6 KJV Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine: (6) And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.

achduke
November 9th, 2015, 09:55 PM
We're not grafted into anything, but baptized by one Spirit into one Body (1 Corinthians 12:13 KJV).


Then who is being grafted in Romans 11?

Romans 11:13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:

Romans 11:17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree

patrick jane
November 9th, 2015, 10:00 PM
Then who is being grafted in Romans 11?

Romans 11:13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:

Romans 11:17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree

heir can tell you, or steko or stp

20734

Right Divider
November 9th, 2015, 10:10 PM
Then who is being grafted in Romans 11?

Romans 11:13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:

Romans 11:17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree
Are you aware that there are two types of Gentiles? There are Gentiles that blessed Israel and those that did not. God did not treat them the same.... until the dispensation of the grace of God where He has mercy on ALL.

Rom 11:32 KJV For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

achduke
November 9th, 2015, 10:21 PM
Are you aware that there are two types of Gentiles? There are Gentiles that blessed Israel and those that did not. God did not treat them the same.... until the dispensation of the grace of God where He has mercy on ALL.

Rom 11:32 KJV For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.


The Word Gentile means People or Nations and sometimes heathens. The House of Israel was dispersed among the nations to be as Gentiles when they continued to disobey God. Assyria captured them and took them away never to return. Mostly the House of Judah (Jews) remain today but the rest of Israel remains dispersed until the last day.

Who do you think the All is referencing in Romans 11:32? Everyone in the world? Israel or Gentiles?

heir
November 9th, 2015, 10:45 PM
Then who is being grafted in Romans 11?

Romans 11:13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:

Romans 11:17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive treeThey weren't "being grafted in". They were already in, but notice they were in danger of being cut off (as Israel had fallen Romans 11:11 KJV, Romans 11:25 KJV) unless they continued in God's goodness (Romans 11:22 KJV). The only way to do that (as they say) was to be established (Romans 1:10-12 KJV) and that by the gospel of Christ (Romans 1:16-17 KJV, Romans 16:25-27 KJV, 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV).

Right Divider
November 9th, 2015, 10:56 PM
The Word Gentile means People or Nations and sometimes heathens. The House of Israel was dispersed among the nations to be as Gentiles when they continued to disobey God. Assyria captured them and took them away never to return. Mostly the House of Judah (Jews) remain today but the rest of Israel remains dispersed until the last day.

Who do you think the All is referencing in Romans 11:32? Everyone in the world? Israel or Gentiles?
Wrong.... they will be gathered from the four winds when the time comes.
Mat 24:29-31 KJV Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: (30) And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. (31) And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Mar 13:24-27 KJV But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, (25) And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken. (26) And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. (27) And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

Isa 11:10-12 KJV And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious. (11) And it shall come to pass in that day, that the Lord shall set his hand again the second time to recover the remnant of his people, which shall be left, from Assyria, and from Egypt, and from Pathros, and from Cush, and from Elam, and from Shinar, and from Hamath, and from the islands of the sea. (12) And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth.

jzeidler
November 10th, 2015, 12:13 AM
of your salvation!

Where is it found in the Bible?

What is it and how is one saved?


The gospel of my salvation is that Jesus did all the work on my behalf, became my sin and died on my behalf, rose again that I might have new life, I believe that is true and trust that he did all this for me and rest in his goodness knowing that I am loved, righteous, holy, and secure because my salvation doesn't rest upon my actions it rests upon Jesus'.

oatmeal
November 10th, 2015, 05:24 AM
Heir,



Believing who Jesus Christ is is only the first half of Romans 10:9. Therefore, if that is actually all you did or understood from Romans 10:9, then you were not saved at that point.

Confessing the Lord Jesus does not get anyone saved for there are two requirements, the other being that we believe in our heart that God raised him from the dead.

You are right, Romans 10:9-10 does not tell us why Jesus willingly obeyed His Father to die on our behalf.

Personally, I believe that there are many people, church goers, even present day God rejectors who at one time did meet the two requirements of Romans 10:9 and have received the gift of salvation, but they do not yet know it. I John 5:13. Again, personally, I believe that I received the gift of salvation when in grade school. I doubt I understood the word salvation or was even concerned about being saved, but neither of those two issues are one of the two requirements of receiving salvation. We can receive the gift of salvation without knowing what it is we received, even as we receive a gift nicely wrapped without knowing what is in it.



Again personally, did I have some huge backlog of sins at the age of say 7 that compelled me to seek salvation? No. But confessing the Lord Jesus and believing in my heart that God raised him from the dead seemed a good idea to me so I did it. Was I familiar with Romans 10:9? No, I was not, but as long as I had heard that Jesus is Lord .... I could believe that without knowing why the cross.

You are right, there is no mention of the cross in Romans 10:9-10.

What does a person need to know to reach the two conclusions? Certainly, knowing the cross could be part of realizing that Jesus is Lord but we must get beyond the cross and realize that God raised him from the dead.

I am quite sure, having attended RCC parochial school that I would have learned of the cross and other things.

You are right, Romans 10:9-10 does not tell us why Jesus willingly obeyed His Father to die on our behalf.

But here we must learn that that is not the point of Romans 10:9-10.

The point of Romans 10:9-10 is to tell us how to receive salvation, it most certainly does not tell us all we need to know to reach the conclusions of Romans 10:9-10. The information we need to reach those two conclusions is in many other passages of scripture, not in Romans 10:9.

If some one asks me how to receive the gift of salvation from God, I tell them to do Romans 10:9-10, those are the only two requirements to receive.

However, you point out correctly that we must know enough about the whats, whys, whos, etc. to reach those conclusions.

If someone asked me how I reached those conclusions then I would have to tell them much much more than Romans 10:9.

Which if I now read you correctly is your point.

Do I read you correctly?

In order to do Romans 10:9 a person has to understand what the requirements are.

They have to know something about who Jesus is, what "Lord" means, who God is, what death is, what it means to be raised from the dead, who raised who.

That would be things a person would need to comprehend before they could reach the two conclusions of Romans 10:9

If a person wants to know who God is, who Jesus Christ is, etc., that would be the place to start with them.

fzappa13
November 10th, 2015, 05:32 AM
I'm so proud of you.
1Pe 2:5-12 KJV Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ. (6) Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded. (7) Unto you therefore which believe he is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner, (8) And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed. (9) But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light: (10) Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy. (11) Dearly beloved, I beseech you as strangers and pilgrims, abstain from fleshly lusts, which war against the soul; (12) Having your conversation honest among the Gentiles: that, whereas they speak against you as evildoers, they may by your good works, which they shall behold, glorify God in the day of visitation.
Peter is clearing referring to ISRAEL here, as in:
Exo 19:5-6 KJV Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine: (6) And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.

Like Heir, you don't even bother to read the verses you offer. The "people" Peter is addressing were not even considered a people up until that point and grafting Ex 19 onto the passage doesn't change that. Rather than create some sort of Frankenstein with other books let's stick with 1 Pet shall we?


3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,

5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.


So, if I understand your position correctly, you don't think he's talking to you here. You're not awaiting an inheritance. Faith doesn't have anything to do with your salvation and you're not waiting on "the last time" for it to be revealed ... all because you already got into the Kingdom of God another way ... gotcha.



6 Wherein ye greatly rejoice, though now for a season, if need be, ye are in heaviness through manifold temptations:


...but this doesn't apply to you, it's talking about those unfortunant Jews. You're not tempted at any point. Gotcha.


7 That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:


... and this isn't talking to you either. Your faith won't be tried because you are much too precious to God to have to endure that. That sort of stuff is reserved for His only begotten Son and those unfortunate Jews. Gotcha.


8 Whom having not seen, ye love; in whom, though now ye see him not, yet believing, ye rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory:

9 Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.


What? Waiting for the END of your faith which is the salvation of our souls? Well, he surely can't be talking to you because you received the reward of your faith the minute you received the proper doctrine, right? Must be some different kind of faith, right?


10 Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:

... and he must be talking about some different kind of grace, right?


11 Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.

12 Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into.


This is what really blows my mind; you think Christ died for the Jews only. That's who He was sent to, right?


13 Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ;


There's that waiting business again but, he can't be talking about you because you've got much more important things to do than wait. Can't be bothered so, let's adopt a doctrine that gives it all to us right now with no sacrifice. I understand the inclination but ... I don't see a scriptural justification for it.


14 As obedient children, not fashioning yourselves according to the former lusts in your ignorance:


Ignorance? Now I know he's not talking about you. You're the smartest guy in the room if your proclamations are to be believed.


15 But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation;

16 Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.


Be Holy? Only those unfortunate Jews have to worry about that. They have to do something to receive the reward of their faith but not you. Gotcha.



17 And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear:

"Without respect of persons"? "Work"? Wait a minute. He's got a special work free, suffer free fate in store for you because He respects you more, right? Therefore he can't be talking to you.





I wouldn't bet eternity on it if I were you.





Wanna keep going with 1 Peter?

Lon
November 10th, 2015, 06:16 AM
Rom 7:24 Wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death?
Rom 7:25 Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself serve the law of God with my mind, but with my flesh I serve the law of sin.
Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.
Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life has set you free in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and death.
Rom 8:3 For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do. By sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, he condemned sin in the flesh,
Rom 8:4 in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.

achduke
November 10th, 2015, 06:51 AM
They weren't "being grafted in". They were already in, but notice they were in danger of being cut off (as Israel had fallen Romans 11:11 KJV, Romans 11:25 KJV) unless they continued in God's goodness (Romans 11:22 KJV). The only way to do that (as they say) was to be established (Romans 1:10-12 KJV) and that by the gospel of Christ (Romans 1:16-17 KJV, Romans 16:25-27 KJV, 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV).

I see what you mean. So you believe that no one is grafted in anymore?

achduke
November 10th, 2015, 07:12 AM
Wrong.... they will be gathered from the four winds when the time comes.


Mostly the House of Judah (Jews) remain today but the rest of Israel remains dispersed until the last day.

fzappa13
November 10th, 2015, 07:35 AM
I guess what concerns me the most about the doctrines many here at TOL have embraced is that they necessitate two kinds of grace, two kinds of faith and, ultimately two different Jesuses. One of each for Jew and Gentile and for the life of me I can't torture that out of the Word of God no matter how hard I try.

fzappa13
November 10th, 2015, 07:39 AM
Rom 7:24 Wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death?
Rom 7:25 Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself serve the law of God with my mind, but with my flesh I serve the law of sin.
Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.
Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life has set you free in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and death.
Rom 8:3 For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do. By sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, he condemned sin in the flesh,
Rom 8:4 in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.

There is always a caveat to the promises. We hear the promises but not the caveat.

Nick M
November 10th, 2015, 07:45 AM
Then who is being grafted in Romans 11?


Knowing this is already addressed, why ask again?

disturbo
November 10th, 2015, 07:51 AM
RD said,


I showed you what Peter meant by HIS use of 'elect'. Here is is AGAIN since you didn't seem to read it the first time.

Isa 45:4 KJV For Jacob my servant's sake, and Israel mine elect, I have even called thee by thy name: I have surnamed thee, though thou hast not known me.


There is NO sense in me trying to explain anything else until you can understand these simple things.

Using the Old Testament word 'elect' to define the New Testament word 'elect' would indicate YOU are the one who doesn't understand simple things. Worse yet, is that you fabricate to change the meaning of the New Testament word.

Maybe a simple study of Romans 11:7 would help you understand simple things...

What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.

achduke
November 10th, 2015, 08:02 AM
Knowing this is already addressed, why ask again?

I wanted heir's opinion. She always has interesting incite. Although I do not always agree with her I do respect her thoughts.

fzappa13
November 10th, 2015, 08:02 AM
RD said,


Isa 45:4 KJV For Jacob my servant's sake, and Israel mine elect, I have even called thee by thy name: I have surnamed thee, though thou hast not known me.



Using the Old Testament word 'elect' to define the New Testament word 'elect' would indicate YOU are the one who doesn't understand simple things. Worse yet, is that you fabricate to change the meaning of the New Testament word.

:darwinsm: Exactly.

Romans 11:7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded

chrysostom
November 10th, 2015, 09:10 AM
john 3:16 (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=john+3%3A16&version=KJV)

Zeke
November 10th, 2015, 09:29 AM
RD said,


Isa 45:4 KJV For Jacob my servant's sake, and Israel mine elect, I have even called thee by thy name: I have surnamed thee, though thou hast not known me.



Using the Old Testament word 'elect' to define the New Testament word 'elect' would indicate YOU are the one who doesn't understand simple things. Worse yet, is that you fabricate to change the meaning of the New Testament word.

Maybe a simple study of Romans 11:7 would help you understand simple things...

What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.

Being surnamed isn't a good thing, That name belongs to the ruling Magistrate/OT God/Lord etc... and makes you a servant like Jacob to who ever is the ruling Bloodline. The letter/legalism of the law is a state of death, 2Cor 3:6 is the only divisional line in life, you are either part of this worlds system and ignorant of the spiritual law of the living/liberty, or in a state of willing dependence on the legal system.

SaulToPaul
November 10th, 2015, 09:30 AM
john 3:16 (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=john+3%3A16&version=KJV)

Eph 2:6 (KJV)

Why is there a corpse hanging in your church?

chrysostom
November 10th, 2015, 09:32 AM
Being surnamed isn't a good thing, That name belongs to the ruling Magistrate/OT God/Lord etc... and makes you a servant like Jacob to who ever is the ruling Bloodline. The letter/legalism of the law is a state of death, 2Cor 3:6 is the only divisional line in life, you are either part of this worlds system and ignorant of the spiritual law of the living/liberty, or in a state of willing dependence on the legal system.

that's not good news

Right Divider
November 10th, 2015, 09:40 AM
Like Heir, you don't even bother to read the verses you offer. The "people" Peter is addressing were not even considered a people up until that point and grafting Ex 19 onto the passage doesn't change that. Rather than create some sort of Frankenstein with other books let's stick with 1 Pet shall we?

So you pick ONE verse that you like and IGNORE the rest. Well done.

It is also quite ignorant of you to call my pointing out WHERE Peter is QUOTING FROM as "creating some of Frankenstein.". Just amazingly dumb on your part.


So, if I understand your position correctly, you don't think he's talking to you here. You're not awaiting an inheritance. Faith doesn't have anything to do with your salvation and you're not waiting on "the last time" for it to be revealed ... all because you already got into the Kingdom of God another way ... gotcha.

I am already seated in heavenly places and of course faith has everything do it with my SALVATION from this present evil world.

Paul does not call me to be part of a PEOPLE but of a BODY, the body of Christ. I'm going to go ahead a stick with God's message through Paul and not your confused mixing in the scripture blender.


...but this doesn't apply to you, it's talking about those unfortunant Jews. You're not tempted at any point. Gotcha.

This is just you being stupid again.


... and this isn't talking to you either. Your faith won't be tried because you are much too precious to God to have to endure that. That sort of stuff is reserved for His only begotten Son and those unfortunate Jews. Gotcha.

Just keep on ranting.... if it makes you feel better.



What? Waiting for the END of your faith which is the salvation of our souls? Well, he surely can't be talking to you because you received the reward of your faith the minute you received the proper doctrine, right? Must be some different kind of faith, right?

Once again, you show your total ignorance of God's Word.


... and he must be talking about some different kind of grace, right?

Indeed it is. Just like the grace that Noah found was different. Don't be a 'dictionary theologian'.


This is what really blows my mind; you think Christ died for the Jews only. That's who He was sent to, right?

Nope... more ignorance on your part. You seem to have lots of it.


There's that waiting business again but, he can't be talking about you because you've got much more important things to do than wait. Can't be bothered so, let's adopt a doctrine that gives it all to us right now with no sacrifice. I understand the inclination but ... I don't see a scriptural justification for it.

As long as you refuse to rightly divide the word of truth, you'll just be a confused and ranting lunatic.


Ignorance? Now I know he's not talking about you. You're the smartest guy in the room if your proclamations are to be believed.

Thanks and they are.


Be Holy? Only those unfortunate Jews have to worry about that. They have to do something to receive the reward of their faith but not you. Gotcha.

Looky there.... Another reference to Exodus.


"Without respect of persons"? "Work"? Wait a minute. He's got a special work free, suffer free fate in store for you because He respects you more, right? Therefore he can't be talking to you.

More loony ranting...


I wouldn't bet eternity on it if I were you.

I trust God.


Wanna keep going with 1 Peter?
Only if you actually want to learn something from it.

fzappa13
November 10th, 2015, 10:06 AM
So you pick ONE verse that you like and IGNORE the rest. Well done.

It is also quite ignorant of you to call my pointing out WHERE Peter is QUOTING FROM as "creating some of Frankenstein.". Just amazingly dumb on your part.


I am already seated in heavenly places and of course faith has everything do it with my SALVATION from this present evil world.

Paul does not call me to be part of a PEOPLE but of a BODY, the body of Christ. I'm going to go ahead a stick with God's message through Paul and not your confused mixing in the scripture blender.


This is just you being stupid again.


Just keep on ranting.... if it makes you feel better.


Once again, you show your total ignorance of God's Word.


Indeed it is. Just like the grace that Noah found was different. Don't be a 'dictionary theologian'.


Nope... more ignorance on your part. You seem to have lots of it.


As long as you refuse to rightly divide the word of truth, you'll just be a confused and ranting lunatic.


Thanks and they are.


Looky there.... Another reference to Exodus.


More loony ranting...


I trust God.


Only if you actually want to learn something from it.

Having no scriptural response to me addressing Peter' offerings one verse at a time you respond by calling me names. This is the ultimate condemnation of your doctrine and it comes from your own lips.


Mat 12: 34 “O generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good things? for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh.”

SaulToPaul
November 10th, 2015, 10:11 AM
that's not good news

Eph 2:6 (KJV)

Why is there a corpse hanging in your church?

Right Divider
November 10th, 2015, 10:17 AM
Having no scriptural response to me addressing Peter' offerings one verse at a time you respond by calling me names. This is the ultimate condemnation of your doctrine and it comes from your own lips.


Mat 12: 34 “O generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good things? for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh.”
Scripture must be understood at a broader level. One favorite verse here and there prove nothing (especially when you ignore Peter's OT references).

Peter is addressing the TWELVE tribes scattered aboard, just like James.

It seems like you think that Peter's addressing "the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia," is some sort of "to whom it may concern". It is not.

chrysostom
November 10th, 2015, 10:19 AM
good news should be easy to understand

SaulToPaul
November 10th, 2015, 10:21 AM
good news should be easy to understand

1 Cor 15:1-4 (KJV)

Simplicity that is in Christ.

Why does your church weigh you down with excess requirements?

heir
November 10th, 2015, 10:23 AM
good news should be easy to understandIt is! Why don't you believe it?

fzappa13
November 10th, 2015, 10:24 AM
Scripture must be understood at a broader level. One favorite verse here and there prove nothing (especially when you ignore Peter's OT references).

Peter is addressing the TWELVE tribes scattered aboard, just like James.

It seems like you think that Peter's addressing "the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia," is some sort of "to whom it may concern". It is not.

I addressed 1 Peter 1 one verse at a time. I did not cherry pick verses. Your failure to acknowledge this only speaks of your own myopia.

Indeed, Peter was specific in that he was addressing strangers.
A point your doctrine won't let you ceed. So tell me, what do you make of this verse?

Romans 11:7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded

In your mind, who are the elect?

chrysostom
November 10th, 2015, 10:32 AM
It is! Why don't you believe it?

it is not as easy as you make it out to be

SaulToPaul
November 10th, 2015, 10:34 AM
it is not as easy as you make it out to be

It's hard for the religious to give up and trust the LORD.
It's that why you have never been saved?

heir
November 10th, 2015, 10:34 AM
it is not as easy as you make it out to beSure it is.

disturbo
November 10th, 2015, 10:35 AM
I threw Calvinism out the window in 1973. It wasn't difficult to do.

Here are some of Calvin's abominations.

Calvin believed that executing unrepentant heretics was justified.

Under Calvin...
Heresy was punished by death. I'm surprised he didn't commit suicide.

In one year, 14 alleged witches were burned to death.

Fornication was punished by exile or drowning.

Adultery, blasphemy, and idolatry was punished with death.

In the year 1558-1559, there were 414 prosecutions for moral offenses.

Calvin’s own step-daughter and son-in-law were among those condemned for adultery and executed.

In one case, a child was beheaded for striking his parents.

During a period of 17 years when Calvin was leading Geneva, there were 139 recorded executions in the city.

You can read about Calvin's other abominations here...

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/frankviola/shockingbeliefsofjohncalvin/

Makes you wonder why anybody would follow Calvin instead of Jesus Christ.

chrysostom
November 10th, 2015, 10:38 AM
I threw Calvinism out the window in 1973. It wasn't difficult to do.

Here are some of Calvin's abominations.


it is all about free will
and
they just don't get it

heir
November 10th, 2015, 10:39 AM
I threw Calvinism out the window in 1973. It wasn't difficult to do.

Here are some of Calvin's abominations.

Calvin believed that executing unrepentant heretics was justified.

Under Calvin...
Heresy was punished by death. I'm surprised he didn't commit suicide.

In one year, 14 alleged witches were burned to death.

Fornication was punished by exile or drowning.

Adultery, blasphemy, and idolatry was punished with death.

In the year 1558-1559, there were 414 prosecutions for moral offenses.

Calvin’s own step-daughter and son-in-law were among those condemned for adultery and executed.

In one case, a child was beheaded for striking his parents.

During a period of 17 years when Calvin was leading Geneva, there were 139 recorded executions in the city.

You can read about Calvin's other abominations here...

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/frankviola/shockingbeliefsofjohncalvin/
:AMR:

disturbo
November 10th, 2015, 10:46 AM
it is not as easy as you make it out to be

And that really is true. Protestants would like people to believe that since we are saved by grace, all you have to do is believe. I will never understand HOW a mental declaration of belief saves anyone. You can't separate grace, faith, and works. All three work together. Grace is what God did by sending His Son. Faith, better translated 'living faith' is our trust in God's Word and commandmentS. Works is THE EVIDENCE that something significant ocured in a believers life.!

SaulToPaul
November 10th, 2015, 10:49 AM
And that really is true. Protestants would like people to believe that since we are saved by grace, all you have to do is believe. I will never understand HOW a mental declaration of belief saves anyone. You can't separate grace, faith, and works. All three work together. Grace is what God did by sending His Son. Faith, better translated 'living faith' is our trust in God's Word and commandmentS. Works is THE EVIDENCE that something significant ocured in a believers life.!

What works are required to prove that I have believed this?,

1 Cor 15:1-4 (KJV)

disturbo
November 10th, 2015, 11:08 AM
What works are required to prove that I have believed this?,

1 Cor 15:1-4 (KJV)

The verse you quoted actually answers your question.

Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

The word works is "that which any one is occupied". Isn't that what Christ should find us doing when he returns?

We should be occupied doing the Lords work. I imagine you know what that is.

SaulToPaul
November 10th, 2015, 11:09 AM
The verse you quoted actually answers your question.

Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

The word works is "that which any one is occupied". Isn't that what Christ should find us doing when he returns?

We should be occupied doing the Lords work. I imagine you know what that is.

I am not following you. Can you explain further?

chrysostom
November 10th, 2015, 11:10 AM
And that really is true. Protestants would like people to believe that since we are saved by grace, all you have to do is believe. I will never understand HOW a mental declaration of belief saves anyone. You can't separate grace, faith, and works. All three work together. Grace is what God did by sending His Son. Faith, better translated 'living faith' is our trust in God's Word and commandmentS. Works is THE EVIDENCE that something significant ocured in a believers life.!

amen
I see it as a test
even if we do believe
our belief will be tested

disturbo
November 10th, 2015, 11:18 AM
I am not following you. Can you explain further?

Maybe you can follow this passage...

Mat 25:43-46
I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.

Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh. Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season? Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.

SaulToPaul
November 10th, 2015, 11:41 AM
Maybe you can follow this passage...

Mat 25:43-46
I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.

Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh. Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season? Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.

Yes, I was referring to 1 Cor 15:1-4 (KJV)

What does believing that Christ died for my sins, and rose again for my justification, require of me to do?

Right Divider
November 10th, 2015, 11:49 AM
I addressed 1 Peter 1 one verse at a time. I did not cherry pick verses. Your failure to acknowledge this only speaks of your own myopia.

I was particularly talking about the GIANT font that you felt the need to use to HIGHLIGHT one verse.


Indeed, Peter was specific in that he was addressing strangers.
A point your doctrine won't let you ceed. So tell me, what do you make of this verse?

As I clearly explained, the reference to strangers had to do the Israelites in FOREIGN lands and NOT that he was writing "to whom it may concern".


Romans 11:7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded

In your mind, who are the elect?
Once AGAIN, this is what Peter was referring to:
Isaiah 45:3-4
3 And I will give thee the treasures of darkness, and hidden riches of secret places, that thou mayest know that I, the LORD, which call thee by thy name, am the God of Israel. 4 For Jacob my servant’s sake, and Israel mine elect, I have even called thee by thy name: I have surnamed thee, though thou hast not known me.

disturbo
November 10th, 2015, 12:32 PM
Yes, I was referring to 1 Cor 15:1-4 (KJV)

What does believing that Christ died for my sins, and rose again for my justification, require of me to do?

Come on bro, you can't be that ignorant.

SaulToPaul
November 10th, 2015, 12:33 PM
Come on bro, you can't be that ignorant.

I do not see where believing that requires me to do something.
Show me?

achduke
November 10th, 2015, 12:43 PM
I do not see where believing that requires me to do something.
Show me?

Love!

1 Corinthians 15:58 Therefore, my beloved brethren, be ye stedfast, unmoveable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, forasmuch as ye know that your labour is not in vain in the Lord.

Galatians 5:6 For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.

1 Thessalonians 1:3 Remembering without ceasing your work of faith, and labour of love, and patience of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ, in the sight of God and our Father;

Repent!

Acts 17:30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

Right Divider
November 10th, 2015, 12:59 PM
Love!

1 Corinthians 15:58 Therefore, my beloved brethren, be ye stedfast, unmoveable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, forasmuch as ye know that your labour is not in vain in the Lord.

Galatians 5:6 For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.

1 Thessalonians 1:3 Remembering without ceasing your work of faith, and labour of love, and patience of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ, in the sight of God and our Father;

Repent!

Acts 17:30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:
I guess folks like you think that MAD means sitting on our butts all day.

No, we believe that we should all serve the LORD.... just not to get saved, but because we are saved.
Ephesians 4:28-32 KJV
28 Let him that stole steal no more: but rather let him labour, working with his hands the thing which is good, that he may have to give to him that needeth. 29 Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, but that which is good to the use of edifying, that it may minister grace unto the hearers. 30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption. 31 Let all bitterness, and wrath, and anger, and clamour, and evil speaking, be put away from you, with all malice: 32 And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ’s sake hath forgiven you.

fzappa13
November 10th, 2015, 01:03 PM
I was particularly talking about the GIANT font that you felt the need to use to HIGHLIGHT one verse.

That is because that was the one verse you apparently failed to see. The people that Peter was addressing were in times past not a people but now are. In times past Israel was a people. This means that this is not whom Peter was addressing. The people whom he was addressing were only then a people through their shared faith in the risen Christ.



As I clearly explained, the reference to strangers had to do the Israelites in FOREIGN lands and NOT that he was writing "to whom it may concern".

You state this but Peter does not. In fact the meaning of the word in the Greek is also "foreigner". The common meaning of this word does not agree with your assertion. Again we circle back to the fact that none save the House of Judah can point to their heritage with any certainty at this time. Your interpretation would have Peter talking to a people that were totally unaware he was talking to them.


Once AGAIN, this is what Peter was referring to:
Isaiah 45:3-4
3 And I will give thee the treasures of darkness, and hidden riches of secret places, that thou mayest know that I, the LORD, which call thee by thy name, am the God of Israel. 4 For Jacob my servant’s sake, and Israel mine elect, I have even called thee by thy name: I have surnamed thee, though thou hast not known me.


You've had two different people point out to you the erroneous nature of arguing for a definition of the New Testament Elect using O.T. passages and you ignore the verse offered that makes this error plain. Why? There are plenty more that we could examine if you like.

achduke
November 10th, 2015, 01:03 PM
I guess folks like you think that MAD means sitting on our butts all day.

No, we believe that we should all serve the LORD.... just not to get saved, but because we are saved.
Ephesians 4:28-32 KJV
28 Let him that stole steal no more: but rather let him labour, working with his hands the thing which is good, that he may have to give to him that needeth. 29 Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, but that which is good to the use of edifying, that it may minister grace unto the hearers. 30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption. 31 Let all bitterness, and wrath, and anger, and clamour, and evil speaking, be put away from you, with all malice: 32 And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ’s sake hath forgiven you.

I was answering STP. Never said MAD people do not do anything. I did have to be specific and only find passages that apply to MAD only.

Right Divider
November 10th, 2015, 02:31 PM
That is because that was the one verse you apparently failed to see. The people that Peter was addressing were in times past not a people but now are. In times past Israel was a people. This means that this is not whom Peter was addressing. The people whom he was addressing were only then a people through their shared faith in the risen Christ.

The "people that were not a people but now are" is referring to the "little flock". They were the ones that Jesus gave the nation after He took it away from the unfaithful leadership.

See Matthew 21:43 and Luke 12:32.

They were the faithful ones of Israel while the "official" leadership was not. Peter did not become the apostle of the Gentiles. That was the responsibility that God gave to Paul


You state this but Peter does not. In fact the meaning of the word in the Greek is also "foreigner". The common meaning of this word does not agree with your assertion. Again we circle back to the fact that none save the House of Judah can point to their heritage with any certainty at this time. Your interpretation would have Peter talking to a people that were totally unaware he was talking to them.

So you think that a person from ISRAEL that is residing in ANOTHER country is not a STRANGER and a FOREIGNER in that country?

You're just too confused.

When Saul persecuted the house of God, they ran away to other countries. The twelve apostles for the twelve tribes stayed in Jerusalem. It's not hard to understand. See Acts 8:1.


You've had two different people point out to you the erroneous nature of arguing for a definition of the New Testament Elect using O.T. passages and you ignore the verse offered that makes this error plain. Why? There are plenty more that we could examine if you like.
It has the SAME meaning regardless of what you think about language and covenants. Peter consistently quoted from the OT about Israels role and parallels those in his epistles. The body of Christ is NOT a "royal priesthood" or a "holy nation".

He never stopped being one of the TWELVE apostles for the TWELVE tribes. Jesus said that Peter and the eleven will sit on TWELVE thrones judging the TWELVE tribes of Israel and Jesus does NOT lie.

oatmeal
November 10th, 2015, 05:43 PM
So, you want to take a crack at the posts Heir ducked then?

I have not followed this thread closely, so if she ducked some, I would not know. However, I did reply to your post because it seemed your teachers had not as a complete education as they could have.

I may be interested in those verses you say she ducked.

Let me know a couple ( not all) of the post numbers, I will look at them.

disturbo
November 10th, 2015, 06:30 PM
Right divider said,


It has the SAME meaning regardless of what you think about language and covenants.

That proves your a fabricator. Nothing is further from the truth.

Strong's...Hebrew for elect...Old Testament...

972 bachiyr baw-kheer' from 977; select:--choose, chosen one, elect.

Strong's... Greek for elect...New Testament...

picked out, chosen
chosen by God,
to obtain salvation through Christ
Christians are called "chosen or elect" of God
the Messiah is called "elect", as appointed by God to the most exalted office conceivable
choice, select, i.e. the best of its kind or class, excellence preeminent: applied to certain individual Christians
__________________________________________________ _

Vines on the NT elect...

(c) believers (Jews or Gentiles), Mat 24:22, 24, 31; Mar 13:20, 22, 27; Luk 18:7; Rom 8:33; Col 3:12; 2Ti 2:10; Tts 1:1; 1Pe 1:1; 2:9 (as a spiritual race); Mat 20:16; 22:14; Rev 17:14, "chosen;" individual believers are so mentioned in Rom 16:13; 2Jo 1:1, 13.

God’s Word “eklektos” is used to refer to Jesus’ disciples, Jewish believers, Gentile believers, the angels of God, members of the Church and even for Christ Himself.

Right Divider
November 10th, 2015, 06:52 PM
Right divider said,

That proves your a fabricator. Nothing is further from the truth.

Strong's...Hebrew for elect...Old Testament...

972 bachiyr baw-kheer' from 977; select:--choose, chosen one, elect.

Strong's... Greek for elect...New Testament...

picked out, chosen
chosen by God,
to obtain salvation through Christ
Christians are called "chosen or elect" of God
the Messiah is called "elect", as appointed by God to the most exalted office conceivable
choice, select, i.e. the best of its kind or class, excellence preeminent: applied to certain individual Christians
__________________________________________________ _

Vines on the NT elect...

(c) believers (Jews or Gentiles), Mat 24:22, 24, 31; Mar 13:20, 22, 27; Luk 18:7; Rom 8:33; Col 3:12; 2Ti 2:10; Tts 1:1; 1Pe 1:1; 2:9 (as a spiritual race); Mat 20:16; 22:14; Rev 17:14, "chosen;" individual believers are so mentioned in Rom 16:13; 2Jo 1:1, 13.

God’s Word “eklektos” is used to refer to Jesus’ disciples, Jewish believers, Gentile believers, the angels of God, members of the Church and even for Christ Himself.
You are a liar and a thief.

Peter is referring to ISRAEL as the elect.

Vines is confused, so it makes sense that you used it.

The "modern Christian world" has never taken God's promises to Israel seriously.They (and apparently you) always mythologize it, 'spiritualize' it, etc. etc. Anything but actually believing what it says.

musterion
November 10th, 2015, 07:08 PM
God is, for now, blessing the world with undiluted grace. No works are required to become or to remain the Father's freely forgiven and justified child in the Son, forever. That, if anything, is the main foundation upon which MADs and a few other non-MAD believers stand.

Openly or subtly, most of you reject it.

So tell us: what's the better deal that you have that we do not? Be honest. What exactly do you possess, or hope to possess, that we are sure to lose by believing as we do?

disturbo
November 10th, 2015, 07:12 PM
You are a liar and a thief.

Peter is referring to ISRAEL as the elect.

Vines is confused, so it makes sense that you used it.

The "modern Christian world" has never taken God's promises to Israel seriously.They (and apparently you) always mythologize it, 'spiritualize' it, etc. etc. Anything but actually believing what it says.

I know how difficult it is for you to cope being debunked and how difficult it is to admit your blunders and SEE the truth. But be of good cheer. Acquiring the truth is like growing up. It's an option.

That means that Vines, Thayer's, Strong's, Wuest, and Baker's Dictionary of Theology are all wrong, and the illustrious 'Right Divider' is correct.

What you need is a lesson in Hermeneutics 001.

musterion
November 10th, 2015, 07:14 PM
The "modern Christian world" has never taken God's promises to Israel seriously.They (and apparently you) always mythologize it, 'spiritualize' it, etc. etc. Anything but actually believing what it says.

They actually do believe it--in reverse. It's a brilliant move Satan played. With Paul's body of doctrine being almost universally rejected even before he died, and with Israel blinded and set aside as no different from the Gentile nations, it was easy for Satan to appeal to religious flesh with the law works and earthly promises God gave to Israel...there was no one left to dispute it. Christendom is the result and it all belongs to the devil. Proof: If their "good news" involves an "if/then" to earn God's favor or to keep it (up to and including perseverance), it denies grace and is of Satan.

Right Divider
November 10th, 2015, 07:22 PM
I know how difficult it is for you to cope being debunked and how difficult it is to admit your blunders and SEE the truth. But be of good cheer. Acquiring the truth is like growing up. It's an option.

That means that Vines, Thayer's, Strong's, Wuest, and Baker's Dictionary of Theology are all wrong, and the illustrious 'Right Divider' is correct.

What you need is a lesson in Hermeneutics 001.
Not at all, but Peter is speaking to his kinsmen and he means "Israel, mine elect".

disturbo
November 10th, 2015, 08:24 PM
Not at all, but Peter is speaking to his kinsmen and he means "Israel, mine elect".

You just don't care about truth. You care about adhering to your beliefs no matter how foolish it makes you look.

I should have told you that besides the references I quoted that refute your beliefs about God's elect. The bible refutes you hands down!
The word 'elect' is used 23 times in the NT. Here are 17 of them. In every verse the word elect indicates CHRISTIANS! The other 6 either mention angels, individual people/Christians, or Christ.

You have a lot of explaining to do.

Matthew 20:16 So the last shall be first, and the first last: for many be called, but few chosen.

John 13:18, I speak not of you all: I know whom I have chosen: but that the scripture may be fulfilled,

John 15:16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.

Acts 15:22 Then pleased it the apostles and elders, with the whole church, to send chosen men of their own company to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas; namely, Judas surnamed Barsabas, and Silas, chief men among the brethren:

Acts 15:25 Then pleased it the apostles and elders, with the whole church, to send chosen men of their own company to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas; namely, Judas surnamed Barsabas, and Silas, chief men among the brethren:

Romans 8:33 Then pleased it the apostles and elders, with the whole church, to send chosen men of their own company to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas; namely, Judas surnamed Barsabas, and Silas, chief men among the brethren:

Romans 16:13 Salute Rufus chosen in the Lord, and his mother and mine.

1 Corinthians 1:27-28 But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty; But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;

Ephesians 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

Colossians 3:12 Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering;

James 2:5 Hearken, my beloved brethren, Hath not God chosen the poor of this world rich in faith, and heirs of the kingdom which he hath promised to them that love him?

2 Timothy 2:10 Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.

Titus 1:1 Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness;

1 Peter 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

1 Peter 2:9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:

1 Peter 5:13 The church that is at Babylon, elected together with you, saluteth you; and so doth Marcus my son.

Revelation 17:14 These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.

How is it that the word 'elect' indicates Christians in every one of these verses yet you can't see it.

oatmeal
November 10th, 2015, 10:36 PM
You show an extraordinary combination of high regard for you own opinion and an extreme lack of knowledge.

Of course Peter calls them stranger, they were ALL in foreign lands (as he clearly spells out in verse one). Not too hard to understand.

Once AGAIN, Paul NEVER even ONCE refers to believers in the dispensation of the grace of God as sheep. But no doubt, that is hard for you to understand.

Regarding Peter's reference to "elect":
Isa 45:4 KJV For Jacob my servant's sake, and Israel mine elect, I have even called thee by thy name: I have surnamed thee, though thou hast not known me.
This the 'elect' that he is writing to... you know, the TWELVE tribes of ISRAEL.

Your thoughts on "Christ denier" puzzle me.

Rather than tangentilize this thread, I should start a thread where you could explain what that means to you.

fzappa13
November 10th, 2015, 10:57 PM
Originally Posted by fzappa13
That is because that was the one verse you apparently failed to see. The people that Peter was addressing were in times past not a people but now are. In times past Israel was a people. This means that this is not whom Peter was addressing. The people whom he was addressing were only then a people through their shared faith in the risen Christ.


The "people that were not a people but now are" is referring to the "little flock". They were the ones that Jesus gave the nation after He took it away from the unfaithful leadership.

I would suggest that this nation is not to be identified geographically or racially just yet. It is that nation that will be born in an instant.

Isa 66:8 Who hath heard such a thing? who hath seen such things? Shall the earth be made to bring forth in one day? or shall a nation be born at once? for as soon as Zion travailed, she brought forth her children.
9 Shall I bring to the birth, and not cause to bring forth? saith the LORD: shall I cause to bring forth, and shut the womb? saith thy God.
10 Rejoice ye with Jerusalem, and be glad with her, all ye that love her: rejoice for joy with her, all ye that mourn for her:
11 That ye may suck, and be satisfied with the breasts of her consolations; that ye may milk out, and be delighted with the abundance of her glory.
12 For thus saith the LORD, Behold, I will extend peace to her like a river, and the glory of the Gentiles like a flowing stream: then shall ye suck, ye shall be borne upon her sides, and be dandled upon her knees.
13 As one whom his mother comforteth, so will I comfort you; and ye shall be comforted in Jerusalem.


When the Lord gathers His it will be both Jew and Gentile alike. Best get used to living with them. If you are indeed the Lord's it is your and their common eventual fate.



See Matthew 21:43 and Luke 12:32.

Ah, more scripture. Good, I like scripture. Let's have a look:

Mat 21:43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.

This verse is from a passage that finds Jesus speaking to the Chief Scribes and Pharisees concerning their rejection of Him. That aside, it is interesting to see what He says concerning the kingdom of God. To begin with, a student of scripture will note that “the kingdom of God” is always referenced in the singular leading one to believe that there is only one. In this verse membership in that kingdom and that nation is contingent upon one bringing forth the fruits thereof. No fruits, no kingdom. Unless you think there is more than one kingdom you were just told the price of admission to the only one there is … and it is not dependent upon your racial heritage or your doctrinal allegiance.

Luke 12:32 Fear not, little flock; for it is your Father's good pleasure to give you the kingdom.


Luke 12:32 finds Jesus no longer addressing the scribes and Pharisees but, instead, addressing the multitudes. He admonishes them to seek the kingdom of God. He goes on to suggest they sell what they have and give to the poor. Not a very popular pastime in this day and age. He also suggests that “where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.” Truer words were never spoken. What we value we clutch to our bosom and is evidenced by what we say and do. Once again we hear reference to THE kingdom of God. There is only one and, once again, we see Jesus offering the price of admission. A price few are willing to pay. The question you should ask yourself is, why would He council others what they should do in seeking this Kingdom when some hold it is only necessary to “believe”? … that is unless you think there is a different set of rules for the Jews to make it into the kingdom than for the gentiles. Remember the parable of the rich young ruler as well as that of the pearl of great price.


They were the faithful ones of Israel while the "official" leadership was not. Peter did not become the apostle of the Gentiles. That was the responsibility that God gave to Paul

While I would agree that Jesus held his harshest criticism for the religious leaders that should have recognized Him and Paul was indeed named an Apostle to the Gentiles I would hasten to add that all the Apostles shared the same faith, the same hope, the same Savior and the wise would do well to hear them all for they all worked toward the same end and suffered the same fate … that being to bear witness of the gospel of Christ and to die for their efforts.




Originally Posted by fzappa13
You state this but Peter does not. In fact the meaning of the word in the Greek is also "foreigner". The common meaning of this word does not agree with your assertion. Again we circle back to the fact that none save the House of Judah can point to their heritage with any certainty at this time. Your interpretation would have Peter talking to a people that were totally unaware he was talking to them.


So you think that a person from ISRAEL that is residing in ANOTHER country is not a STRANGER and a FOREIGNER in that country?

You're just too confused.

When Saul persecuted the house of God, they ran away to other countries. The twelve apostles for the twelve tribes stayed in Jerusalem. It's not hard to understand. See Acts 8:1.

It is you who are confused. Scripture reveals that the twelve tribes were scattered long before Paul's day. Paul persecuted those who believed in Christ and there is no record that he distinguished between Jew and Gentile in this effort. Neither does Christ distinguish between Jew and Gentile as it concerns the bestowal of grace through faith in His sacrifice.



Originally Posted by fzappa13
You've had two different people point out to you the erroneous nature of arguing for a definition of the New Testament Elect using O.T. passages and you ignore the verse offered that makes this error plain. Why? There are plenty more that we could examine if you like.



It has the SAME meaning regardless of what you think about language and covenants. Peter consistently quoted from the OT about Israels role and parallels those in his epistles. The body of Christ is NOT a "royal priesthood" or a "holy nation".

Indeed all who wrote in the New Testament referred to the old as well they should … they had the same author. That said the question was “who are the elect?” It would appear that you suggest they were Israel to the exclusion of the Gentiles. I would beg to differ.

Read Romans 11 … the whole thing.


He never stopped being one of the TWELVE apostles for the TWELVE tribes. Jesus said that Peter and the eleven will sit on TWELVE thrones judging the TWELVE tribes of Israel and Jesus does NOT lie.

This is true … and the Word of God also says this:

Zec 8: 20 Thus saith the LORD of hosts; It shall yet come to pass, that there shall come people, and the inhabitants of many cities:
21 And the inhabitants of one city shall go to another, saying, Let us go speedily to pray before the LORD, and to seek the LORD of hosts: I will go also.
22 Yea, many people and strong nations shall come to seek the LORD of hosts in Jerusalem, and to pray before the LORD.
23 Thus saith the LORD of hosts; In those days it shall come to pass, that ten men shall take hold out of all languages of the nations, even shall take hold of the skirt of him that is a Jew, saying, We will go with you: for we have heard that God is with you.


BTW, congrats on an invective free post.

fzappa13
November 10th, 2015, 11:01 PM
I have not followed this thread closely, so if she ducked some, I would not know. However, I did reply to your post because it seemed your teachers had not as a complete education as they could have.

I may be interested in those verses you say she ducked.

Let me know a couple ( not all) of the post numbers, I will look at them.

I'm not going to chew your food for you. If you are too lazy or too busy to read the thread, so be it. Please stop bothering those of us who aren't. It's inconsiderate.

Right Divider
November 11th, 2015, 11:43 AM
I would suggest that this nation is not to be identified geographically or racially just yet. It is that nation that will be born in an instant.

Isa 66:8 Who hath heard such a thing? who hath seen such things? Shall the earth be made to bring forth in one day? or shall a nation be born at once? for as soon as Zion travailed, she brought forth her children.
9 Shall I bring to the birth, and not cause to bring forth? saith the LORD: shall I cause to bring forth, and shut the womb? saith thy God.
10 Rejoice ye with Jerusalem, and be glad with her, all ye that love her: rejoice for joy with her, all ye that mourn for her:
11 That ye may suck, and be satisfied with the breasts of her consolations; that ye may milk out, and be delighted with the abundance of her glory.
12 For thus saith the LORD, Behold, I will extend peace to her like a river, and the glory of the Gentiles like a flowing stream: then shall ye suck, ye shall be borne upon her sides, and be dandled upon her knees.
13 As one whom his mother comforteth, so will I comfort you; and ye shall be comforted in Jerusalem.

When the Lord gathers His it will be both Jew and Gentile alike. Best get used to living with them. If you are indeed the Lord's it is your and their common eventual fate.

A couple of things for you:
First, Gentiles always had the option to join with Israel. That's nothing new.
Secondly, the body of Christ is NOT a nation and never will be.

When God is dealing with Israel (i.e., not during the dispensation of the grace of God), there are TWO types of Gentiles: those that bless Israel and those that curse Israel (Gen 12:3).

God says that He will bless those that bless Israel and curse those that curse Israel.

In the body of Christ there is NEITHER Jew nor Greek (not even male nor female, Gal 3:28). That's different.



Ah, more scripture. Good, I like scripture. Let's have a look:

Mat 21:43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.

This verse is from a passage that finds Jesus speaking to the Chief Scribes and Pharisees concerning their rejection of Him. That aside, it is interesting to see what He says concerning the kingdom of God. To begin with, a student of scripture will note that “the kingdom of God” is always referenced in the singular leading one to believe that there is only one. In this verse membership in that kingdom and that nation is contingent upon one bringing forth the fruits thereof. No fruits, no kingdom. Unless you think there is more than one kingdom you were just told the price of admission to the only one there is … and it is not dependent upon your racial heritage or your doctrinal allegiance.

Yes, eventually both God's programs for heaven and earth will be joined into one in Christ (Eph 1:10). That time is not now.


Luke 12:32 Fear not, little flock; for it is your Father's good pleasure to give you the kingdom.

Luke 12:32 finds Jesus no longer addressing the scribes and Pharisees but, instead, addressing the multitudes. He admonishes them to seek the kingdom of God. He goes on to suggest they sell what they have and give to the poor. Not a very popular pastime in this day and age. He also suggests that “where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.” Truer words were never spoken. What we value we clutch to our bosom and is evidenced by what we say and do. Once again we hear reference to THE kingdom of God. There is only one and, once again, we see Jesus offering the price of admission. A price few are willing to pay. The question you should ask yourself is, why would He council others what they should do in seeking this Kingdom when some hold it is only necessary to “believe”? … that is unless you think there is a different set of rules for the Jews to make it into the kingdom than for the gentiles. Remember the parable of the rich young ruler as well as that of the pearl of great price.

Jesus told all of His disciples to sell all that they had (Luke 12:33.... the very next verse). There was a unique reason for that.


While I would agree that Jesus held his harshest criticism for the religious leaders that should have recognized Him and Paul was indeed named an Apostle to the Gentiles I would hasten to add that all the Apostles shared the same faith, the same hope, the same Savior and the wise would do well to hear them all for they all worked toward the same end and suffered the same fate … that being to bear witness of the gospel of Christ and to die for their efforts.

The twelve never fully understood the reason for Jesus' death on the cross and didn't find out the details until God revealed them to and through Paul.


It is you who are confused. Scripture reveals that the twelve tribes were scattered long before Paul's day. Paul persecuted those who believed in Christ and there is no record that he distinguished between Jew and Gentile in this effort. Neither does Christ distinguish between Jew and Gentile as it concerns the bestowal of grace through faith in His sacrifice.

Israel has been scattered a few times.
As of Acts 8:1, they (the 12) stayed in Jerusalem. They were to convert Israel first, but Israel refused.


Indeed all who wrote in the New Testament referred to the old as well they should … they had the same author. That said the question was “who are the elect?” It would appear that you suggest they were Israel to the exclusion of the Gentiles. I would beg to differ.

Read Romans 11 … the whole thing.

Read Romans... the whole thing.


This is true … and the Word of God also says this:

Zec 8: 20 Thus saith the LORD of hosts; It shall yet come to pass, that there shall come people, and the inhabitants of many cities:
21 And the inhabitants of one city shall go to another, saying, Let us go speedily to pray before the LORD, and to seek the LORD of hosts: I will go also.
22 Yea, many people and strong nations shall come to seek the LORD of hosts in Jerusalem, and to pray before the LORD.
23 Thus saith the LORD of hosts; In those days it shall come to pass, that ten men shall take hold out of all languages of the nations, even shall take hold of the skirt of him that is a Jew, saying, We will go with you: for we have heard that God is with you.

Indeed, when the earthly kingdom comes (Matt 6:10), Israel will be leading the Gentiles.



BTW, congrats on an invective free post.
Thanks, you too.

1Mind1Spirit
November 11th, 2015, 02:23 PM
Peter is ONE of the TWELVE apostles that will judge the TWELVE tribes of ISRAEL. His message was written TO THEM and FOR THEM.

Paul never ONCE calls US sheep or Jesus OUR shepherd.


Here Paul is calling the church of God a flock.


Acts 20:28 KJVA


28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.


Now do you suppose he is talking about a flock of birds?

I only asked because of yer obsession with flying away.

Now, if you cant prove he isn't calling the church of God sheep, well......

Enjoy yer crow. :wazzup:

Bright Raven
November 11th, 2015, 02:30 PM
This is the good news;

1 Corinthians 15:1-4 Holman Christian Standard Bible (HCSB)

1 Now brothers, I want to clarify for you the gospel I proclaimed to you; you received it and have taken your stand on it.
2 You are also saved by it, if you hold to the message I proclaimed to you—unless you believed for no purpose.
3 For I passed on to you as most important what I also received:

that Christ died for our sins
according to the Scriptures,
4 that He was buried,
that He was raised on the third day
according to the Scriptures,

disturbo
November 11th, 2015, 02:31 PM
Right Divider said,


Paul never ONCE calls US sheep or Jesus OUR shepherd.

Well Paul wrote Romans...

Romans 8:36 As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.

And I think Paul wrote Hebrews.

Hebrews 13:20 Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant,

And you call yourself Right Divider!

1Mind1Spirit
November 11th, 2015, 02:41 PM
Right Divider said,


Paul never ONCE calls US sheep or Jesus OUR shepherd.



Well Paul wrote Romans...

Romans 8:36 As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.

And I think Paul wrote Hebrews.

Hebrews 13:20 Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant,

And you call yourself Right Divider!

Looks like he needs to add his own name to his confused list. :shocked:

disturbo
November 11th, 2015, 02:51 PM
Looks like he needs to add his own name to his confused list. :shocked:

I'm trying hard to get onto the other categories but to no avail. I haven't given up. The way I look at it is my name is written in RD's Book of Life.

Right Divider
November 11th, 2015, 03:01 PM
Right Divider said,

Well Paul wrote Romans...

Romans 8:36 As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.

And I think Paul wrote Hebrews.

Hebrews 13:20 Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant,

And you call yourself Right Divider!
No, Paul did not write Hebrews.... Wrong Divider.

Paul is the apostle of the Gentiles and HEBREWS is ALL about Israel.

disturbo
November 11th, 2015, 03:17 PM
No, Paul did not write Hebrews.... Wrong Divider.

Paul is the apostle of the Gentiles and HEBREWS is ALL about Israel.

Did you notice what I said? I said I THINK Paul was the author of Hebrews. But Paul is the author of Romans which debunks Right Dividers claim that...



Paul never ONCE calls US sheep or Jesus OUR shepherd.

But of course, you won't confront that major blunder of yours!

disturbo
November 11th, 2015, 03:55 PM
Why do I THINK Paul wrote Hebrews?

One of many examples is the way Paul words things. In Paul's writings he used the words "much more" about 15 times. The author of Hebrews also uses the same wording...

Heb 12:25 See that ye refuse not him that speaketh. For if they escaped not who refused him that spake on earth, much more shall not we escape, if we turn away from him that speaketh from heaven:

Heb 9:14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

Hebrews 12:25 See that ye refuse not him that speaketh. For if they escaped not who refused him that spake on earth, much more shall not we escape, if we turn away from him that speaketh from heaven:

Right Divider
November 11th, 2015, 04:40 PM
Did you notice what I said? I said I THINK Paul was the author of Hebrews. But Paul is the author of Romans which debunks Right Dividers claim that...

But of course, you won't confront that major blunder of yours!
No, Paul never ONCE calls a member of the body of Christ a sheep.

The ONE reference that you are TRYING to use against that is a QUOTE from the OT regarding Israelites.

Wednesday Addams
November 11th, 2015, 04:46 PM
Whether Paul authored Hebrews or not, does it make a difference to what you believe in regards to Hebrews as divine scripture, by which it's words are true? Because you guys believe that books that made it to the New Testament are inspired, right?

disturbo
November 11th, 2015, 04:49 PM
No, Paul never ONCE calls a member of the body of Christ a sheep.

The ONE reference that you are TRYING to use against that is a QUOTE from the OT regarding Israelites.

It doesn't matter if it is or is not an OT quote, Paul, the author of Romans said,

Romans 8:36 As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.

You can remain in denial for just so long and after a while you begin to look like an idiot. That's what you've chosen.

AH! Psalms and Jeremiah. Hey What do you know. You got something right!

Right Divider
November 11th, 2015, 04:54 PM
Why do I THINK Paul wrote Hebrews?

One of many examples is the way Paul words things. In Paul's writings he used the words "much more" about 15 times. The author of Hebrews also uses the same wording...

Heb 12:25 See that ye refuse not him that speaketh. For if they escaped not who refused him that spake on earth, much more shall not we escape, if we turn away from him that speaketh from heaven:

Heb 9:14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

Hebrews 12:25 See that ye refuse not him that speaketh. For if they escaped not who refused him that spake on earth, much more shall not we escape, if we turn away from him that speaketh from heaven:
That kind of "evidence" is completely unconvincing and would be thrown out of court.

Paul signs all of his epistles:
2Th 3:17 KJV The salutation of Paul with mine own hand, which is the token in every epistle: so I write.

Rom 1:1 KJV Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God,

1Co 1:1 KJV Paul, called to be an apostle of Jesus Christ through the will of God, and Sosthenes our brother,

2Co 1:1 KJV Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, and Timothy our brother, unto the church of God which is at Corinth, with all the saints which are in all Achaia:

Gal 1:1 KJV Paul, an apostle, (not of men, neither by man, but by Jesus Christ, and God the Father, who raised him from the dead;)

Eph 1:1 KJV Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:

Php 1:1 KJV Paul and Timotheus, the servants of Jesus Christ, to all the saints in Christ Jesus which are at Philippi, with the bishops and deacons:

Col 1:1 KJV Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, and Timotheus our brother,

1Th 1:1 KJV Paul, and Silvanus, and Timotheus, unto the church of the Thessalonians which is in God the Father and in the Lord Jesus Christ: Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.

2Th 1:1 KJV Paul, and Silvanus, and Timotheus, unto the church of the Thessalonians in God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ:

1Ti 1:1 KJV Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the commandment of God our Saviour, and Lord Jesus Christ, which is our hope;

2Ti 1:1 KJV Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, according to the promise of life which is in Christ Jesus,

Tit 1:1 KJV Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness;

Phm 1:1 KJV Paul, a prisoner of Jesus Christ, and Timothy our brother, unto Philemon our dearly beloved, and fellowlabourer,
Then we have HEBREWS:
Heb 1:1 KJV God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
I'd say that this is FAR better evidence that Paul did NOT write Hebrews.

disturbo
November 11th, 2015, 04:58 PM
Hebrews

The letter closes with the words "Grace be with you all" (Hebrews 13:25), which is the same closing found in each of Paul's known letters (see Romans 16:20; 1 Corinthians 16:23; 2 Corinthians 13:14; Galatians 6:18; Ephesians 6:24; Philippians 4:23; Colossians 4:18; 1 Thessalonians 5:28; 2 Thessalonians 3:18; 1 Timothy 6:21; 2 Timothy 4:22; Titus 3:15; and Philemon 25). However, it should be noted that Peter (1 Peter 5:14; 2 Peter 3:18) used similar—though not identical—closings. Possibly that it was simply customary to close letters like this with the words "Grace be with you all" during this time period.

http://www.gotquestions.org/author-Hebrews.html

Wednesday Addams
November 11th, 2015, 05:29 PM
Whether Paul authored Hebrews or not, does it make a difference to what you believe in regards to Hebrews as divine scripture, by which it's words are true? Because you guys believe that books that made it to the New Testament are inspired, right?

Can someone give an answer to this? Thanks.

1Mind1Spirit
November 11th, 2015, 06:03 PM
No, Paul never ONCE calls a member of the body of Christ a sheep.

The ONE reference that you are TRYING to use against that is a QUOTE from the OT regarding Israelites.


Acts 20:28 KJVA


28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.



Looks like you got sum splainin' to do.

Nanja
November 11th, 2015, 06:44 PM
Acts 20:28 KJVA


28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.



Looks like you got sum splainin' to do.


Yup!

~~~~~

glorydaz
November 11th, 2015, 06:54 PM
Acts 20:28 KJVA


28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.



Looks like you got sum splainin' to do.

Could be a flock of birds.....

NOUN

1.a number of birds of one kind feeding, resting, or traveling together:
"a flock of gulls"

synonyms: flight · congregation · covey · clutch

VERB

1.congregate or mass in a flock or large group:
"students flocked to spring break sites"

synonyms: gather · collect · congregate · assemble · converge ·
[more]

patrick jane
November 11th, 2015, 06:57 PM
That kind of "evidence" is completely unconvincing and would be thrown out of court.

Paul signs all of his epistles:
2Th 3:17 KJV The salutation of Paul with mine own hand, which is the token in every epistle: so I write.

Rom 1:1 KJV Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God,

1Co 1:1 KJV Paul, called to be an apostle of Jesus Christ through the will of God, and Sosthenes our brother,

2Co 1:1 KJV Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, and Timothy our brother, unto the church of God which is at Corinth, with all the saints which are in all Achaia:

Gal 1:1 KJV Paul, an apostle, (not of men, neither by man, but by Jesus Christ, and God the Father, who raised him from the dead;)

Eph 1:1 KJV Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:

Php 1:1 KJV Paul and Timotheus, the servants of Jesus Christ, to all the saints in Christ Jesus which are at Philippi, with the bishops and deacons:

Col 1:1 KJV Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, and Timotheus our brother,

1Th 1:1 KJV Paul, and Silvanus, and Timotheus, unto the church of the Thessalonians which is in God the Father and in the Lord Jesus Christ: Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.

2Th 1:1 KJV Paul, and Silvanus, and Timotheus, unto the church of the Thessalonians in God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ:

1Ti 1:1 KJV Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the commandment of God our Saviour, and Lord Jesus Christ, which is our hope;

2Ti 1:1 KJV Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, according to the promise of life which is in Christ Jesus,

Tit 1:1 KJV Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness;

Phm 1:1 KJV Paul, a prisoner of Jesus Christ, and Timothy our brother, unto Philemon our dearly beloved, and fellowlabourer,
Then we have HEBREWS:
Heb 1:1 KJV God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
I'd say that this is FAR better evidence that Paul did NOT write Hebrews.

Yep, my study Bible shows multiple authors for Hebrews, including some unknown authors and even Priscilla.

1Mind1Spirit
November 11th, 2015, 07:10 PM
Could be a flock of birds.....

NOUN

1.a number of birds of one kind feeding, resting, or traveling together:
"a flock of gulls"

synonyms: flight · congregation · covey · clutch

VERB

1.congregate or mass in a flock or large group:
"students flocked to spring break sites"

synonyms: gather · collect · congregate · assemble · converge ·
[more]

So you have some other places in Paul's writings speaking of the body of Christ as birds?

1Mind1Spirit
November 11th, 2015, 07:15 PM
Yep, my study Bible shows multiple authors for Hebrews, including some unknown authors and even Priscilla.

Here then let me give you a clue.

This document is not preserved in it's entirety, there is no salutation that is preserved, it picks up after the salutation.

So by the rest of the wording it more closely resembles Paul than any other of the Apostles.

Gobeesh?

Right Divider
November 11th, 2015, 07:19 PM
Hebrews

The letter closes with the words "Grace be with you all" (Hebrews 13:25), which is the same closing found in each of Paul's known letters (see Romans 16:20; 1 Corinthians 16:23; 2 Corinthians 13:14; Galatians 6:18; Ephesians 6:24; Philippians 4:23; Colossians 4:18; 1 Thessalonians 5:28; 2 Thessalonians 3:18; 1 Timothy 6:21; 2 Timothy 4:22; Titus 3:15; and Philemon 25). However, it should be noted that Peter (1 Peter 5:14; 2 Peter 3:18) used similar—though not identical—closings. Possibly that it was simply customary to close letters like this with the words "Grace be with you all" during this time period.

http://www.gotquestions.org/author-Hebrews.html
Paul starts EVERY ONE OF HIS EPISTLES with "PAUL".

HEBREWS is NOT written to the BODY OF CHRIST. Therefore, it would not matter if he did write it. But the evidence is clear that he did not.

1Mind1Spirit
November 11th, 2015, 07:20 PM
Here Paul is calling the church of God a flock.


Acts 20:28 KJVA


28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.


Now do you suppose he is talking about a flock of birds?

I only asked because of yer obsession with flying away.

Now, if you cant prove he isn't calling the church of God sheep, well......

Enjoy yer crow. :wazzup:


Bump.

I knew it.

Thanks for answering my question Glory daysed.

:rotfl::rotfl::rotfl:

disturbo
November 11th, 2015, 07:20 PM
Yep, my study Bible shows multiple authors for Hebrews, including some unknown authors and even Priscilla.

I doubt it was Priscilla.

Up until the 1800's it was a done deal that Paul wrote Hebrews and there are many GOOD reasons for it. Paul was the most qualified of all to write the letter. But it's very possible that whoever wrote it was taught by Paul. Paul, Luke, Barnabas, and Apollos are the likely authors.

But it really doesn't matter.

1Mind1Spirit
November 11th, 2015, 07:22 PM
Paul starts EVERY ONE OF HIS EPISTLES with "PAUL".

HEBREWS is NOT written to the BODY OF CHRIST. Therefore, it would not matter if he did write it. But the evidence is clear that he did not.

Just refuted you before you posted this bare assumption without a basis in evidence. :rapture:

Right Divider
November 11th, 2015, 07:25 PM
Acts 20:28 KJVA

28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.

Looks like you got sum splainin' to do.
Ok, for you hard of understanding.....

Paul never ONCE calls Jesus OUR SHEPHERD.

Paul never ONCE calls Jesus OUR HIGH PRIEST.

The body of Christ is NOT Israel and does NOT have TWELVE apostles for TWELVE tribes.

We, the body of Christ, are ONE body made up of many members. We are NOT a nation, we are NOT a royal priesthood.

If you can't tell the difference between the ministries of the TWELVE and the ONE, shame on you.

1Mind1Spirit
November 11th, 2015, 07:32 PM
Ok, for you hard of understanding.....

Paul never ONCE calls Jesus OUR SHEPHERD.

Paul never ONCE calls Jesus OUR HIGH PRIEST.

The body of Christ is NOT Israel and does NOT have TWELVE apostles for TWELVE tribes.

We, the body of Christ, are ONE body made up of many members. We are NOT a nation, we are NOT a royal priesthood.

If you can't tell the difference between the ministries of the TWELVE and the ONE, shame on you.

Wake up boy.

I just blew dispensationism back to hell where it spawned from.

:CRASH: Dispensationism :shocked:

Right Divider
November 11th, 2015, 07:48 PM
Wake up boy.

I just blew dispensationism back to hell where it spawned from.

:CRASH: Dispensationism :shocked:
Some silly opinions that have nothing to do with anything. Well done!

patrick jane
November 11th, 2015, 07:53 PM
I doubt it was Priscilla.

Up until the 1800's it was a done deal that Paul wrote Hebrews and there are many GOOD reasons for it. Paul was the most qualified of all to write the letter. But it's very possible that whoever wrote it was taught by Paul. Paul, Luke, Barnabas, and Apollos are the likely authors.

But it really doesn't matter.

Look it up. NIV says: Paul, Luke, Barnabas, Apollos, Silas, Philip, Priscilla and others have been suggested because the name of the author is not given in the Biblical text itself. Whoever it was speaks of Timothy as "brother" Hebrews 13:23 KJV -

1Mind1Spirit
November 11th, 2015, 07:54 PM
Some silly opinions that have nothing to do with anything.

Hey, they were your opinions. ;)



Well done!

Thanks. :)

patrick jane
November 11th, 2015, 07:56 PM
Wake up boy.

I just destroyed my faith and sent it back to hell where it spawned from.

:CRASH: my faith :shocked:

ok 1head

Right Divider
November 11th, 2015, 07:57 PM
Hey, they were your opinions. ;)

At least mine are not silly.


Thanks. :)
That was sarcasm. :duh:

1Mind1Spirit
November 11th, 2015, 08:00 PM
Look it up. NIV says: Paul, Luke, Barnabas, Apollos, Silas, Philip, Priscilla and others have been suggested because the name of the author is not given in the Biblical text itself. Whoever it was speaks of Timothy as "brother" Hebrews 13:23 KJV -

What do you suppose him calling Timothy brother means?

Paul claims to have begotten all the churches, yet refers to them as brothers.

Pull that little tidbit from a dispy site did yuh?

patrick jane
November 11th, 2015, 08:15 PM
What do you suppose him calling Timothy brother means?

Paul claims to have begotten all the churches, yet refers to them as brothers.

Pull that little tidbit from a dispy site did yuh?

No it's in my NIV Life Application Study Bible,, not from computer, it gives the authors of every book in the Bible; dates, audience, biography of major people, location, etc.


20754

20755

patrick jane
November 11th, 2015, 08:18 PM
What do you suppose him calling Timothy brother means?

Paul claims to have begotten all the churches, yet refers to them as brothers.

Pull that little tidbit from a dispy site did yuh?

1 Corinthians 4:15-16 KJV -

aikido7
November 11th, 2015, 08:19 PM
Because of the above^ You think Paul is using his own interpretation even though he has the Holy Spirit to lead him.We ALL have our own interpretation! What are you talking about?

Don't you see the translations and Bible versions in bookstores as interpretations?

Don't you pay attention to the diverse interpretations of folks who post on TOL?

Take a poll: most of these people will say they are "led by the Holy Spirit."

1Mind1Spirit
November 11th, 2015, 08:20 PM
No it's in my NIV Life Application Study Bible,, not from computer, it gives the authors of every book in the Bible; dates, audience, biography of major people, location, etc.


20754

20755

Okay.

Now answer my first question.

What do you suppose him calling Timothy brother means?

patrick jane
November 11th, 2015, 08:24 PM
Paul starts EVERY ONE OF HIS EPISTLES with "PAUL".

HEBREWS is NOT written to the BODY OF CHRIST. Therefore, it would not matter if he did write it. But the evidence is clear that he did not.

Exactly !!!!!!!!! That's the bottom line !! If Billy Bob wrote it, it's still not to the BOC. The audience is Hebrew Christians, (many 2nd generation christians) Hebrews 2:3 KJV - they may have been considering a return to Judaism because of immaturity, stemming from a lack of understanding of Biblical truths.

patrick jane
November 11th, 2015, 08:25 PM
Okay.

Now answer my first question.

What do you suppose him calling Timothy brother means?

They all referred to each other as brothers and sisters, like the 70s

1Mind1Spirit
November 11th, 2015, 08:32 PM
Exactly !!!!!!!!! That's the bottom line !! If Billy Bob wrote it, it's still not to the BOC. The audience is Hebrew Christians, (many 2nd generation christians) Hebrews 2:3 KJV - they may have been considering a return to Judaism because of immaturity, stemming from a lack of understanding of Biblical truths.

So Hebrew Christians were not in the body of Christ?

Hmmmmm.

Looks like you need to be rebegotten, kinda like them there Corinthians.

1Mind1Spirit
November 11th, 2015, 08:36 PM
They all referred to each other as brothers and sisters, like the 70s

By all, I can take it you mean Paul, too?

glorydaz
November 11th, 2015, 08:36 PM
So you have some other places in Paul's writings speaking of the body of Christ as birds?

I was giving you an example of how words have more than one meaning. Flock is used in scripture as a gathering and an assembly of people...not just sheep. And you seem to be supporting the idea that Heb. is written by Paul because he uses the term "flock" and Hebrews spoke of the great shepherd of the sheep, Jesus Christ. Isn't that correct? In Acts Paul was referring to the assembly of believers of which there were overseers (shepherds, pastors).


Acts 20:28
Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.

Like this verse points to.


Jeremiah 3:15
And I will give you shepherds according to My heart, who will feed you with knowledge and understanding

1Mind1Spirit
November 11th, 2015, 09:04 PM
I was giving you an example of how words have more than one meaning. Flock is used in scripture as a gathering and an assembly of people...not just sheep. And you seem to be supporting the idea that Heb. is written by Paul because he uses the term "flock" and Hebrews spoke of the great shepherd of the sheep, Jesus Christ. Isn't that correct? In Acts Paul was referring to the assembly of believers of which there were overseers (shepherds, pastors).


Acts 20:28
Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.

Like this verse points to.


Jeremiah 3:15
And I will give you shepherds according to My heart, who will feed you with knowledge and understanding

You're just burying yourself deeper.

Men couldn't oversee flying birds.

Birds on the ground are not called flocks.

Paul is likening God's church to a flock of sheep.

The overseers as shepherds.

glorydaz
November 11th, 2015, 09:16 PM
You're just burying yourself deeper.

Men couldn't oversee flying birds.

Birds on the ground are not called flocks.

Paul is likening God's church to a flock of sheep.

The overseers as shepherds.


A flock of chickens? :chuckle:



A gathering is a flock. Just as a bunch of kids are called a brood, they're also called a flock. Job 21:11

And men certainly can be overseers of a flock of birds. Like chickens and pigeons. You're just too intent on proving a point that isn't really the point at all. Here's some chickens for ya.


Matthew 23:37
O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!

Right Divider
November 11th, 2015, 09:18 PM
A flock of chickens? :chuckle:



A gathering is a flock. Just as a bunch of kids are called a brood, they're also called a flock. Job 21:11

And men certainly can be overseers of a flock of birds. Like chickens and pigeons. You're just too intent on proving a point that isn't really the point at all. Here's some chickens for ya.

Matthew 23:37
O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!
He really is dense..... my ignore list needs to expand.

1Mind1Spirit
November 11th, 2015, 10:02 PM
A flock of chickens? :chuckle:



A gathering is a flock. Just as a bunch of kids are called a brood, they're also called a flock. Job 21:11

And men certainly can be overseers of a flock of birds. Like chickens and pigeons. You're just too intent on proving a point that isn't really the point at all. Here's some chickens for ya.


Matthew 23:37
O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!

I'll agree with yuh on that.

Spoke too soon about birds not being called flocks while on the ground.

Stuck my foot in my mouth there didn't I?

So I'll stick to what I first asked.

Where did Paul talk about a flock being birds?

But to the contrary he spoke thus.


Acts 20:29 KJV


29 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.



Here's some wolves for yuh.


Matthew 7:15 KJV


15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.


Are Paul's wolves gonna come disguised as baby chicks and mother hens?

Did Paul say he hatched the churches?

patrick jane
November 11th, 2015, 10:48 PM
I'll agree with yuh on that.

Spoke too soon about turtles not being called flocks while on the ground.

Stuck my foot in my mouth there didn't I?

So I'll stick to what I first asked.

Where did Paul talk about a flock being birds turtles ?

But to the contrary he spoke thus.


Acts 20:29 KJV


29 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.



Here's some turtles for yuh.


Matthew 7:15 KJV


15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.


Are Paul's wolves gonna come disguised as baby chicks and mother hens?

Did Paul say he hatched the churches pigeons ?

I can't believe your quote in post 194 !

heir
November 11th, 2015, 10:56 PM
Acts 20:29 KJV


29 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.

Paul is talking about the church of God. You know, the one that sold out as commanded in Matthew, Mark, Luke, John. They were of the flock! :duh:

patrick jane
November 11th, 2015, 10:58 PM
Here's some wolves for yuh.


Matthew 7:15 KJV


15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.


Are Paul's wolves gonna come disguised as baby chicks turtles and mother hens?

Did Paul say he hatched the eggs ?


Philippians 3:2 KJV

glorydaz
November 11th, 2015, 11:12 PM
I'll agree with yuh on that.

Spoke too soon about birds not being called flocks while on the ground.

Stuck my foot in my mouth there didn't I?

:e4e:


So I'll stick to what I first asked.

Where did Paul talk about a flock being birds?

But to the contrary he spoke thus.


Acts 20:29 KJV


29 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.



Here's some wolves for yuh.


Matthew 7:15 KJV


15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.


Are Paul's wolves gonna come disguised as baby chicks and mother hens?

Did Paul say he hatched the churches?

No, Paul isn't talking about birds or chicks. He said "flock" referring to an assembly or gathering of people. And the wolves are people, too....not chicks...not chickens....just false prophets.

Lazy afternoon
November 12th, 2015, 12:34 AM
Paul starts EVERY ONE OF HIS EPISTLES with "PAUL".

HEBREWS is NOT written to the BODY OF CHRIST. Therefore, it would not matter if he did write it. But the evidence is clear that he did not.

Hebrews shows the spiritual passage of Christians is typed by the passage of the Israelites from Egypt (the world) to the promised land. (the Kingdom).

If you are not in this journey then you are either not a believer or you are still in Egypt or just left and exhibiting the same attitude which bought many of them to their end.

Heb 12:2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.
Heb 12:3 For consider him that endured such contradiction of sinners against himself, lest ye be wearied and faint in your minds.
Heb 12:4 Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin.
Heb 12:5 And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him:
Heb 12:6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.
Heb 12:7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?
Heb 12:8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.



LA

patrick jane
November 12th, 2015, 12:46 AM
Hebrews shows the spiritual passage of Christians is typed by the passage of the Israelites from Egypt (the world) to the promised land. (the Kingdom).

If you are not in this journey then you are either not a believer or you are still in Egypt or just left and exhibiting the same attitude which bought many of them to their end.

Heb 12:2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.
Heb 12:3 For consider him that endured such contradiction of sinners against himself, lest ye be wearied and faint in your minds.
Heb 12:4 Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin.
Heb 12:5 And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him:
Heb 12:6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.
Heb 12:7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?
Heb 12:8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.



LA

Th scriptures you post stand alone, but your commentary is off or completely irrelevant most times.

fzappa13
November 12th, 2015, 04:42 AM
First, Gentiles always had the option to join with Israel. That's nothing new.

True … and now Israel has the opportunity to join the Gentiles in body of Christ. During the millennial reign of Christ this situation flips once again.


Secondly, the body of Christ is NOT a nation and never will be.

Why do you say that? (scriptures would be nice)


When God is dealing with Israel (i.e., not during the dispensation of the grace of God), there are TWO types of Gentiles: those that bless Israel and those that curse Israel (Gen 12:3).

God says that He will bless those that bless Israel and curse those that curse Israel.


Actually it was Abraham but, Okay. However, I'm not real sure what your point is here.


In the body of Christ there is NEITHER Jew nor Greek (not even male nor female, Gal 3:28). That's different.

“Neither Jew nor Greek” … thank you. That has been my point all along. Jew and Gentile now worship and have access to the same God through a faith that Jesus was and that He was who he said he was. By the same token the Apostles were all talking to the same people in that they were all made one, a nation if you will, through Jesus' sacrifice. You mentioned Gal 3. Here's part of what it says:

Gal 3: 5 He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.
7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.
8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.
9 So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.



Yes, eventually both God's programs for heaven and earth will be joined into one in Christ (Eph 1:10). That time is not now.

Oh, I quite agree. The point I was trying to make is that “Israel” and “the gentiles” have a common Lord, common fate and a common final mailing address. I think the notion that the faith and fate of these two being bifurcated is not supported by scripture.


Jesus told all of His disciples to sell all that they had (Luke 12:33.... the very next verse). There was a unique reason for that.

These words were recorded for the admonition of any who would hear them.



The twelve never fully understood the reason for Jesus' death on the cross and didn't find out the details until God revealed them to and through Paul.


I couldn't disagree more. Jesus plainly told them who He was at every turn. As it concerns the twelve and what they understood John alone stood at the cross and he records Jesus' words on the cross that lead you straight back to Psalm 22. The Apostle whom Jesus loved knew what he was looking at. As it concerns the rest I think Jesus' brief visit after His death sufficient to convince even Thomas. Now, if your referring to the notion that Jesus' sacrifice cleansed the gentiles as well through faith as reflected in his two dreams ... you're likely right.


Israel has been scattered a few times.
As of Acts 8:1, they (the 12) stayed in Jerusalem. They were to convert Israel first, but Israel refused.


Yes. And so now Israel has lost it's place of preeminence in God's grand scheme but they will one day reclaim it … hopefully in the not too distant future.


Read Romans... the whole thing.

I have. More times than I would care to mention. The point was “the elect” are made up of Jew and Gentile alike and Romans is one of many books to confirm this. They receive the same reward at the same time but now we have wandered into the subject of the first resurrection and that likely deserves its own thread.


Indeed, when the earthly kingdom comes (Matt 6:10), Israel will be leading the Gentiles.


And they will both be members of the same nation ... those that have taken part in the first resurrection, that is.

achduke
November 12th, 2015, 06:42 AM
We ALL have our own interpretation! What are you talking about?

Don't you see the translations and Bible versions in bookstores as interpretations?

Don't you pay attention to the diverse interpretations of folks who post on TOL?

Take a poll: most of these people will say they are "led by the Holy Spirit."

We may be led by the Holy Spirit but does everyone really have the fullness of the Holy Spirit or even part? Paul and the Apostles had the Holy Spirit. How many can claim the Holy Spirit is really talking to them?

John 14:26 But the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you

1 Corinthians 1:10 I appeal to you, brothers and sisters, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree with one another in what you say and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be perfectly united in mind and thought.

1 Corinthians 2:16 For who has understood the mind of the Lord so as to instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.

John 5:30 I can do nothing on my own. As I hear, I judge, and my judgment is just, because I seek not my own will but the will of him who sent me.

Philippians 2:1-2 1 So if there is any encouragement in Christ, any comfort from love, any participation in the Spirit, any affection and sympathy, 2 complete my joy by being of the same mind, having the same love, being in full accord and of one mind.

Look at the difference in the Apostles before Pentecost and after Pentecost.

Has everyone had their Pentecost moment?

Rev 3:3 And I will appoint my two witnesses, and they will prophesy for 1,260 days, clothed in sackcloth.

achduke
November 12th, 2015, 06:55 AM
Whether Paul authored Hebrews or not, does it make a difference to what you believe in regards to Hebrews as divine scripture, by which it's words are true? Because you guys believe that books that made it to the New Testament are inspired, right?


Pretty sure they believe all the books in the bible are inspired but they believe only certain scripture applies to the gentiles and the rest is for Israel. Specifically 1 Corinthians - Philemon is for gentiles.

heir
November 12th, 2015, 07:45 AM
Whether Paul authored Hebrews or not, does it make a difference to what you believe in regards to Hebrews as divine scripture, by which it's words are true? Because you guys believe that books that made it to the New Testament are inspired, right?
All scripture is given by inspiration of God (2 TImothy 3:16-17 KJV). All scripture is FOR our learning (Romans 15:4 KJV), but it's not all written TO us or about us! The Bible says a lot of different things!

SaulToPaul
November 12th, 2015, 08:09 AM
Pretty sure they believe all the books in the bible are inspired but they believe only certain scripture applies to the gentiles and the rest is for Israel. Specifically 1 Corinthians - Philemon is for gentiles.

Romans-Philemon is to the Body of Christ, which contains both Jews and Gentiles.

:e4e:

achduke
November 12th, 2015, 09:00 AM
Romans-Philemon is to the Body of Christ, which contains both Jews and Gentiles.

:e4e:

Yes but I have seen some here that do not believe that Romans is part of the BOC.

Nick M
November 12th, 2015, 12:13 PM
Yes but I have seen some here that do not believe that Romans is part of the BOC.

Who?

There are things all over the Bible that are not for us. That doesn't mean you don't read and study it. Are you going to curse God and die? It's in the Bible.

achduke
November 12th, 2015, 12:20 PM
Who?

There are things all over the Bible that are not for us. That doesn't mean you don't read and study it. Are you going to curse God and die? It's in the Bible.

You are correct that there are many things in the bible that does not apply to everyone. I see things a little different from most of the MAD people in that I think the believers are a part of Israel so that more of the bible applies.

1Mind1Spirit
November 12th, 2015, 12:41 PM
:e4e:



No, Paul isn't talking about birds or chicks. He said "flock" referring to an assembly or gathering of people. And the wolves are people, too....not chicks...not chickens....just false prophets.

No, what his analogy does, is reflect that he is talking to the same people Jesus was.

Sheep.

Deal with it.

Nick M
November 12th, 2015, 12:48 PM
I think the believers are a part of Israel so that more of the bible applies.

I can prove you don't think this. I can prove you are engaging in what the "replacement theology" "covenants" and others call hyper-dispensatoinalism. They do it too, but don't want to admit it. They just want to apply what they want to apply. So they can be seen before men doing good works.

Do you keep Matthew 23? I can answer for you.

Matthew 23

1Then Jesus spoke to the multitudes and to His disciples, 2 saying: “The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat. 3 Therefore whatever they tell you to observe, that observe and do

achduke
November 12th, 2015, 12:58 PM
I can prove you don't think this. I can prove you are engaging in what the "replacement theology" "covenants" and others call hyper-dispensatoinalism. They do it too, but don't want to admit it. They just want to apply what they want to apply. So they can be seen before men doing good works.

Do you keep Matthew 23? I can answer for you.

Matthew 23

1Then Jesus spoke to the multitudes and to His disciples, 2 saying: “The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat. 3 Therefore whatever they tell you to observe, that observe and do

Call me intrigued and I welcome any proofs you may have. As for Replacement Theology, I do not think that the church replaces Israel as traditional Replacement Theology is defined.

aikido7
November 12th, 2015, 02:04 PM
We may be led by the Holy Spirit but does everyone really have the fullness of the Holy Spirit or even part? No. Obviously not. But those people who go around believing and preaching that their understanding of God is infinite will always disagree.

A careful reading of the Bible shows us that God is only grasped through interpretation, not any form of inerrant absolutionism.


1 Corinthians 2:16 For who has understood the mind of the Lord so as to instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.This snippet was obviously written down in the service of the Jesus people who felt under attack--or at least offended--by the beliefs of those who did not accept Jesus.

Everyone at one time or another has concluded that they “have the mind of Christ.” But that clearly is impossible. It does not make common sense.


John 5:30 I can do nothing on my own. As I hear, I judge, and my judgment is just, because I seek not my own will but the will of him who sent me.There’s a great theological statement that shows both God and humanity are necessarily different: one infinite, one finite.


Philippians 2:1-2 1 So if there is any encouragement in Christ, any comfort from love, any participation in the Spirit, any affection and sympathy, 2 complete my joy by being of the same mind, having the same love, being in full accord and of one mind.I see this as a beseeching prayer that shows humanity’s dire incompleteness before God.


Look at the difference in the Apostles before Pentecost and after Pentecost.

Has everyone had their Pentecost moment?I had my moment years ago and my moments now are merely revival.


Rev 3:3 And I will appoint my two witnesses, and they will prophesy for 1,260 days, clothed in sackcloth.John of Patmos’ Revelation is a metaphoric, theological attack on the horrific persecution of the Jesus people after the Roman/Jewish war.

The portrait of a bloodthirsty avenging Jesus is not reality. It is a metaphor at best.

Right Divider
November 13th, 2015, 09:44 AM
True … and now Israel has the opportunity to join the Gentiles in body of Christ. During the millennial reign of Christ this situation flips once again.

While this is true, that is not what Peter was teaching to those that he was writing to. Many people, including you, read that INTO what Peter wrote.

That is very common BTW.


Why do you say that? (scriptures would be nice)

I guess that you need a single verse that tells you this. In reality, you need need scripture to support the idea that they are. Paul always refers to US as a body and never as a nation.


Actually it was Abraham but, Okay. However, I'm not real sure what your point is here.

The Israelites are his descendants and it still applies to them. In particular God singled out Jacob and changed his name to Israel.


“Neither Jew nor Greek” … thank you. That has been my point all along. Jew and Gentile now worship and have access to the same God through a faith that Jesus was and that He was who he said he was. By the same token the Apostles were all talking to the same people in that they were all made one, a nation if you will, through Jesus' sacrifice. You mentioned Gal 3. Here's part of what it says:

Gal 3: 5 He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.
7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.
8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.
9 So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.

This does not change what Peter writes to his people. I know that you like to ignore his references to the OT that are specifically about Israel, but that is your problem.


Oh, I quite agree. The point I was trying to make is that “Israel” and “the gentiles” have a common Lord, common fate and a common final mailing address. I think the notion that the faith and fate of these two being bifurcated is not supported by scripture.

Indeed, in the body of Christ there is no distinction. But, again, Peter is addressing the "royal priesthood" which is believing Israel and not the body of Christ which has NO priesthood.


These words were recorded for the admonition of any who would hear them.

That is complete nonsense. There was a SPECIFIC reason that He told them to do it. You need to learn about it.


I couldn't disagree more. Jesus plainly told them who He was at every turn. As it concerns the twelve and what they understood John alone stood at the cross and he records Jesus' words on the cross that lead you straight back to Psalm 22. The Apostle whom Jesus loved knew what he was looking at. As it concerns the rest I think Jesus' brief visit after His death sufficient to convince even Thomas. Now, if your referring to the notion that Jesus' sacrifice cleansed the gentiles as well through faith as reflected in his two dreams ... you're likely right.

Jesus spend at least 2 years teaching them about the kingdom and preaching the kingdom at hand and still had NOT told them that He would die. When He did tell them, they did not understand.

Even after His resurrection, they did not know many things about it.
Joh 20:9 KJV For as yet they knew not the scripture, that he must rise again from the dead.
The "preaching of the cross" as good news is uniquely Pauline. When Peter preached in Acts 2-5, Peter is preaching the kingdom and NOT the good news of the cross. Peter preached the condemnation of Israel for Jesus' death on the cross.


Yes. And so now Israel has lost it's place of preeminence in God's grand scheme but they will one day reclaim it … hopefully in the not too distant future.

I have. More times than I would care to mention. The point was “the elect” are made up of Jew and Gentile alike and Romans is one of many books to confirm this. They receive the same reward at the same time but now we have wandered into the subject of the first resurrection and that likely deserves its own thread.

The elect in Christ is not what Peter is writing in his epistles, you just read that INTO it because that's what the majority of people do.


IAnd they will both be members of the same nation ... those that have taken part in the first resurrection, that is.
Read it again, Israel has a leadership position in the earthly kingdom.
Isa 60:12-22 KJV For the nation and kingdom that will not serve thee shall perish; yea, those nations shall be utterly wasted. (13) The glory of Lebanon shall come unto thee, the fir tree, the pine tree, and the box together, to beautify the place of my sanctuary; and I will make the place of my feet glorious. (14) The sons also of them that afflicted thee shall come bending unto thee; and all they that despised thee shall bow themselves down at the soles of thy feet; and they shall call thee, The city of the LORD, The Zion of the Holy One of Israel. (15) Whereas thou hast been forsaken and hated, so that no man went through thee, I will make thee an eternal excellency, a joy of many generations. (16) Thou shalt also suck the milk of the Gentiles, and shalt suck the breast of kings: and thou shalt know that I the LORD am thy Saviour and thy Redeemer, the mighty One of Jacob. (17) For brass I will bring gold, and for iron I will bring silver, and for wood brass, and for stones iron: I will also make thy officers peace, and thine exactors righteousness. (18) Violence shall no more be heard in thy land, wasting nor destruction within thy borders; but thou shalt call thy walls Salvation, and thy gates Praise. (19) The sun shall be no more thy light by day; neither for brightness shall the moon give light unto thee: but the LORD shall be unto thee an everlasting light, and thy God thy glory. (20) Thy sun shall no more go down; neither shall thy moon withdraw itself: for the LORD shall be thine everlasting light, and the days of thy mourning shall be ended. (21) Thy people also shall be all righteous: they shall inherit the land for ever, the branch of my planting, the work of my hands, that I may be glorified. (22) A little one shall become a thousand, and a small one a strong nation: I the LORD will hasten it in his time.
Make sure to compare this with the book of the Revelation:
Rev 21:23-27 KJV And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof. (24) And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it. (25) And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there. (26) And they shall bring the glory and honour of the nations into it. (27) And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.

Grosnick Marowbe
November 13th, 2015, 09:48 AM
While this is true, that is not what Peter was teaching to those that he was writing to. Many people, including you, read that INTO what Peter wrote.

That is very common BTW.


I guess that you need a single verse that tells you this. In reality, you need need scripture to support the idea that they are. Paul always refers to US as a body and never as a nation.


The Israelites are his descendants and it still applies to them. In particular God singled out Jacob and changed his name to Israel.


This does not change what Peter writes to his people. I know that you like to ignore his references to the OT that are specifically about Israel, but that is your problem.


Indeed, in the body of Christ there is no distinction. But, again, Peter is addressing the "royal priesthood" which is believing Israel and not the body of Christ which has NO priesthood.


That is complete nonsense. There was a SPECIFIC reason that He told them to do it. You need to learn about it.


Jesus spend at least 2 years teaching them about the kingdom and preaching the kingdom at hand and still had NOT told them that He would die. When He did tell them, they did not understand.

Even after His resurrection, they did not know many things about it.
Joh 20:9 KJV For as yet they knew not the scripture, that he must rise again from the dead.
The "preaching of the cross" as good news is uniquely Pauline. When Peter preached in Acts 2-5, Peter is preaching the kingdom and NOT the good news of the cross. Peter preached the condemnation of Israel for Jesus' death on the cross.


The elect in Christ is not what Peter is writing in his epistles, you just read that INTO it because that's what the majority of people do.


Read it again, Israel has a leadership position in the earthly kingdom.
Isa 60:12-22 KJV For the nation and kingdom that will not serve thee shall perish; yea, those nations shall be utterly wasted. (13) The glory of Lebanon shall come unto thee, the fir tree, the pine tree, and the box together, to beautify the place of my sanctuary; and I will make the place of my feet glorious. (14) The sons also of them that afflicted thee shall come bending unto thee; and all they that despised thee shall bow themselves down at the soles of thy feet; and they shall call thee, The city of the LORD, The Zion of the Holy One of Israel. (15) Whereas thou hast been forsaken and hated, so that no man went through thee, I will make thee an eternal excellency, a joy of many generations. (16) Thou shalt also suck the milk of the Gentiles, and shalt suck the breast of kings: and thou shalt know that I the LORD am thy Saviour and thy Redeemer, the mighty One of Jacob. (17) For brass I will bring gold, and for iron I will bring silver, and for wood brass, and for stones iron: I will also make thy officers peace, and thine exactors righteousness. (18) Violence shall no more be heard in thy land, wasting nor destruction within thy borders; but thou shalt call thy walls Salvation, and thy gates Praise. (19) The sun shall be no more thy light by day; neither for brightness shall the moon give light unto thee: but the LORD shall be unto thee an everlasting light, and thy God thy glory. (20) Thy sun shall no more go down; neither shall thy moon withdraw itself: for the LORD shall be thine everlasting light, and the days of thy mourning shall be ended. (21) Thy people also shall be all righteous: they shall inherit the land for ever, the branch of my planting, the work of my hands, that I may be glorified. (22) A little one shall become a thousand, and a small one a strong nation: I the LORD will hasten it in his time.
Make sure to compare this with the book of the Revelation:
Rev 21:23-27 KJV And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof. (24) And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it. (25) And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there. (26) And they shall bring the glory and honour of the nations into it. (27) And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.


Good post

God's Truth
November 15th, 2015, 12:25 AM
of your salvation!
Where is it found in the Bible?
What is it and how is one saved?

The good news is that if you drink and eat Jesus' flesh and blood, you will have eternal life.

Right Divider
November 15th, 2015, 10:20 AM
The good news is that if you drink and eat Jesus' flesh and blood, you will have eternal life.
You're behind with God's program.

God's Truth
November 15th, 2015, 11:23 AM
You're behind with God's program.

Believing and obeying Jesus' words does not make me behind; it makes me saved.

Paul did not nullify Jesus' words.

Right Divider
November 15th, 2015, 11:31 AM
Believing and obeying Jesus' words does not make me behind; it makes me saved.

Paul did not nullify Jesus' words.
Jesus Christ revealed things to Paul that you reject.
That's your problem.

God's Truth
November 15th, 2015, 11:34 AM
Jesus Christ revealed things to Paul that you reject.
That's your problem.

I repeated what Jesus says, and you say that makes me behind.

Paul did not change what Jesus said. Jesus' words are forever for everyone.

Right Divider
November 15th, 2015, 11:39 AM
I repeated what Jesus says, and you say that makes me behind.

Paul did not change what Jesus said. Jesus' words are forever for everyone.
You repeat SOME of what Jesus said. You leave some out. You misrepresent what He said because you refuse to understand it, even though many here have tried to help you for a very long time.

No, Paul did not change what Jesus said. But Jesus said MORE, OTHER things to Paul that you reject. You reject God's FURTHER revelation. Therefore, you are an enemy of God.

God's Truth
November 15th, 2015, 11:41 AM
You repeat SOME of what Jesus said. You leave some out. You misrepresent what He said because you refuse to understand it, even though many here have tried to help you for a very long time.

No, Paul did not change what Jesus said. But Jesus said MORE, OTHER things to Paul that you reject. You reject God's FURTHER revelation. Therefore, you are an enemy of God.

I do no such thing.