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dialm
October 28th, 2015, 02:37 PM
The Romans are hard shake out of the trees. What we may have to do is chop the tree down.

What does this mean?

ok doser
October 28th, 2015, 02:41 PM
The Romans are hard shake out of the trees. What we may have to do is chop the tree down.


:freak:


What does this mean?

that yer cat's tap-dancing on yer keyboard?

Wick Stick
October 28th, 2015, 02:47 PM
It weren't the Romans what were in the tree. It was them pesty Canaanites.

Also, the tree were already chopped down. It was the Romans what dun that.

Jarrod

dialm
October 28th, 2015, 03:44 PM
It weren't the Romans what were in the tree. It was them pesty Canaanites.

Also, the tree were already chopped down. It was the Romans what dun that.

Jarrod

This is a Protestant viewpoint. And very serious. If the roman church is Mystery Babylon then it is evil and must be put behind us. There is a cost involve. So far the Protestants from Martin Luther onward have not been willing to pay. They don't even want to talk about it.

dialm
October 28th, 2015, 03:45 PM
:freak:



that yer cat's tap-dancing on yer keyboard?

What drives me crazy?

dialm
October 28th, 2015, 04:22 PM
Where does the roman church get its power here on earth?

Do not answer with the word 'God' as we are talking about something that we can get our hands on.

The roman church has an earthly power. Where does this power come from?

Wick Stick
October 28th, 2015, 04:37 PM
This is a Protestant viewpoint.
Mine or yours? Both, I think.


And very serious. If the roman church is Mystery Babylon then it is evil and must be put behind us. There is a cost involve. So far the Protestants from Martin Luther onward have not been willing to pay. They don't even want to talk about it.
Well you've got me there. I don't think the Roman Catholic Church is Mystery Babylon.

Jarrod

dialm
October 28th, 2015, 04:40 PM
Mine or yours? Both, I think.


Well you've got me there. I don't think the Roman Catholic Church is Mystery Babylon.

Jarrod

Hi Jerrod. I don't know you so maybe you could tell me if you believe that there is a Mystery Babylon? And if so, could you identify it?

Thanks

Wick Stick
October 28th, 2015, 05:03 PM
Hi Jerrod. I don't know you so maybe you could tell me if you believe that there is a Mystery Babylon? And if so, could you identify it?

Thanks
There definitely WAS, and I guess to some extent there are still vestiges of it, who would like to bring it back to life.

I can identify it, but I need a paragraph or so of history...

The Bible says 2 million people came out of Egypt following Moses, and not all of them were actually Israelites. After tromping through the desert for a while, they invaded a land where they were supposed to evict/slaughter the current inhabitants and not intermarry with them. But they didn't evict them and they did marry them.

They adopted a pagan monarchy and then they adopted pagan religion, and built a pagan temple, and apostatized until they were carried away "beyond Babylon." In Babylon, they proceeded to adopt a good bit of Babylonian religion, and mix it with the existing combination of Judaism and Canaanite religion. They brought that mess to Persia and then back to Israel, where they (re)built their pagan temple.

Basically, the Israelite nation was established as a mixture. There was a mixture of Abraham's true descendants, and false ones. There was a mixture of the Lord's true religion, and false.

The false element of the Jewish nation, and its associated Canaanite religion, is "Mystery Babylon."

For the most part, God has stomped it down and burned it with fire whenever it started to crush the righteous. That is what Tishba B'Av is about.

Different bits of it still exist - some within modern Judaism, some in the Masonic Lodges, some elsewhere. As a single entity, it no longer exists. It is a shattered mirror, and bits of it are all over the place.

Jarrod

Stripe
October 28th, 2015, 07:26 PM
What drives me crazy?

By the looks of it, air. And you've had plenty of it.

dialm
October 28th, 2015, 09:44 PM
Jerrod

To invade and conquer the Land was extremely high. We would not expect that they could actually ever do it.

It is the same with Protestantism. The cost of defeating the Roman Church is higher than the Protestants are willing to pay. Instead we should expect the Protestants and the Romans to, (using your term) intermarry.

And this 'intermarriage' is actual Mystery Babylon.

Why/how?

Wick Stick
October 29th, 2015, 03:10 PM
Sorry, I'm just not buying it. I see Catholics as fellow Christians, not a foe to be defeated.

Jarrod

chrysostom
October 29th, 2015, 03:51 PM
Sorry, I'm just not buying it. I see Catholics as fellow Christians, not a foe to be defeated.

Jarrod

we appreciate that

it will remain a mystery to the others

daqq
October 30th, 2015, 04:45 AM
Mystery Babylon is "the flesh" with all of its attributes including the eyes and mind of the flesh of the carnal minded man. The same will always see the primary covenant(s) as physical in nature while the Torah is Spirit, supernal, spiritual, and now having been transformed in the doctrine and the Testimony of Messiah Yeshua. The carnal man refuses to come out of the flesh and walk according to the Spirit, (even after reading and studying Paul who clearly admonishes all of his readers to mortify the deeds of the body, and to mortify your own "members" of your own "household" which are upon your own earth, and to walk according to the Spirit, or you will die) and therefore the carnal minded man will not enter into the New Covenant unless and until "the flesh" with all of its attributes including the eyes and mind of the flesh, (which is a dragon) and all the works thereof are burned down; and it will take ten horns which are ten kings who shall mingle with the seed of men in the final hour, and shall eat her flesh and burn her down with fire, that is, at the end of your four dominions, (O ye anthropon-man-faced carnal men) :crackup:

chrysostom
October 30th, 2015, 05:08 AM
Mystery Babylon is "the flesh" with all of its attributes including the eyes and mind of the flesh of the carnal minded man. The same will always see the primary covenant(s) as physical in nature while the Torah is Spirit, supernal, spiritual, and now having been transformed in the doctrine and the Testimony of Messiah Yeshua. The carnal man refuses to come out of the flesh and walk according to the Spirit, (even after reading and studying Paul who clearly admonishes all of his readers to mortify the deeds of the body, and to mortify your own "members" of your own "household" which are upon your own earth, and to walk according to the Spirit, or you will die) and therefore the carnal minded man will not enter into the New Covenant unless and until "the flesh" with all of its attributes including the eyes and mind of the flesh, (which is a dragon) and all the works thereof are burned down; and it will take ten horns which are ten kings who shall mingle with the seed of men in the final hour, and shall eat her flesh and burn her down with fire, that is, at the end of your four dominions, (O ye anthropon-man-faced carnal men) :crackup:



What does this mean?

chrysostom
October 30th, 2015, 05:09 AM
babylon the great

mystery
seven hills
many waters
trade
fallen
found no more

here are the clues

jon machtemes
October 30th, 2015, 05:31 AM
The Romans are hard shake out of the trees. What we may have to do is chop the tree down.

What does this mean?

I think I understand what you are saying, although not without a great deal of difficulty. I call myself a protestant Christian because I do reject the tenets of the Roman Catholic church. I am also a Historicist concerning eschatology. I do believe that little horn from Daniel 7 is the Papacy who made war on the saints and overcame them for times, time, and the dividing of time, (1260 day/years). I will be honest though, since I am an amillenialist, I am not sure whether or not the events described as the overthrow of Babylon the Great occured already in the late 17th and early 18th century. This is because in the description of Mystery Babylon she sits on seven hills while today the Vatical only sits upon one. The problem I have though with believing this overthrow already occured is because of how much power and influence she still has: which is astonishing and kept well-hidden.
Since I have lately started to think that Revelation is maybe not a chronilogical vision, but a group of visions describing the same events told in different ways and from different angles, then I am inclined to also believe it possible that the overthrow of Mystery Babylon and the consuming of Gog and Magog are one event together occuring at the glorious second coming of Christ.
Either way, it is prudent to say that old harlot has not changed her ways. Read the documents if Vatican II, the Codes of Canon Law, and the Catechism of the Catholic Church to see that she still opposes herself to God. She still thinks to change times and laws, and by her sorcery she has decieved the world. I don't hate Catholics. I don't hate Protestants or Evangelicals. I hate the enemy, Satan. He, by inspiring the doctrines of men that exault themselves above Scripture, intends to decieve men, slander Jesus Christ, and exault his own perverse philosophy. Jesus calls his elect out of her that they don't share in her judgement.
Let us all remain ever watchful with our lamps full of His oil, abiding in Him and His Word. Whatever else may come will. He is faithful and true: our King and High Priest. Let us heed His instruction, "But don't you be called 'Rabbi,' for one is your teacher, the Christ, and all of you are brothers. 9Call no man on the earth your father, for one is your Father, he who is in heaven. 10Neither be called masters, for one is your master, the Christ. 11But he who is greatest among you will be your servant. 12Whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and whoever humbles himself will be exalted." God bless you.

daqq
October 30th, 2015, 05:37 AM
babylon the great

mystery
seven hills
many waters
trade
fallen
found no more

here are the clues

If Adam is likened to a city, (Joshua 3:16) then so likewise every man is likened to a city. It is an allegory; the "city" is the same as the "world" that each and every man surrounds himself or herself with: the people, places, and things one builds up roundabout himself including his or her doctrines, (the doctrines are primarily what usually needs to be burned down to the ground). No literal physical city has literal flesh that may be eaten or be burned down as Revelation 17:16 clearly states:

Revelation 17:16
16. And the ten horns which thou sawest upon the beast, these shall hate the whore, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire.

It is therefore a parable, O Egypt, great of flesh, (Ezekiel 16:26).

Matthew 10:17-20
17. But beware of the anthropon-man-faced; for they will deliver you up to the sanhedrins, and they will scourge you in their synagogues:
18. And you shall be brought before governors and kings for my sake, for a testimony against them and the heathen.
19. But when they deliver you up, take no thought how or what you shall speak, for it shall be given you in that same hour what you shall speak:
20. For it is not you that speak, but the Spirit of your Father which speaks in you.

This genos of anthropon cannot be seen with the eyes of the flesh. :chuckle:

chrysostom
October 30th, 2015, 05:42 AM
Since I have lately started to think that Revelation is maybe not a chronilogical vision, but a group of visions describing the same events told in different ways and from different angles,

you got that right

victorinus figured it out in the 3rd century

it is called recapitulation

bybee
October 30th, 2015, 06:08 AM
The Romans are hard shake out of the trees. What we may have to do is chop the tree down.

What does this mean?

Well, "Jousting at windmills" comes to mind....:confused:

chrysostom
October 30th, 2015, 06:13 AM
Well, "Jousting at windmills" comes to mind....:confused:

do you want to talk about don quixote?

bybee
October 30th, 2015, 06:17 AM
do you want to talk about don quixote?

We have....
We could....
But then, we would probably, again, disagree as to interpretation.
Suffice it to say that, perhaps, we agree that it is one of the great pieces of literature in the Western Canon?:think:

daqq
October 30th, 2015, 06:33 AM
It weren't the Romans what were in the tree. It was them pesty Canaanites.

Do you mean the Philistines in the vale of Raphaim? :)

And the Philistines came up yet again and spread themselves in the valley of Raphaim. And when David inquired of YHWH, He said, You shall not go up: but fetch a compass behind them, and come upon them over against the weeping trees. And let it be, that when you hear the sound of ankle-chains in the tops of the weeping trees, then shall you bestir yourself: for then shall YHWH go out before you to smite the camp of the Philistines. (2 Samuel 5:22-24).

Wick Stick
October 30th, 2015, 09:42 AM
I figure...


babylon the great - an establishment opposed to God

mystery - requires interpretation
seven hills - like seven horns, denotes a series of leaders
many waters - spread across humanity
trade - money changing
fallen - deposed
found no more - gone

here are the clues

chrysostom
October 30th, 2015, 09:45 AM
I figure...

you are taking a lot of liberties there

why don't you start with the literal meaning
and
see what you can make of it?

SaulToPaul
October 30th, 2015, 09:46 AM
you are taking a lot of liberties there

why don't you start with the literal meaning
and
see what you can make of it?

:chuckle:

Wick Stick
October 30th, 2015, 09:47 AM
Do you mean the Philistines in the vale of Raphaim? :)
No, I mean the Canaanites that worked right beside the Israelites in the building of the temple (and other things):

1Kings 5:18
And Solomon's builders and Hiram's builders did hew them, and the stonesquarers: so they prepared timber and stones to build the house.

Wick Stick
October 30th, 2015, 09:48 AM
you are taking a lot of liberties there

why don't you start with the literal meaning
and
see what you can make of it?
Because the text calls itself a mystery, and asks the reader to interpret.

chrysostom
October 30th, 2015, 09:52 AM
Because the text calls itself a mystery, and asks the reader to interpret.

what?

the whole thing is a mystery
and
you can do with it what you will?

how convenient

Wick Stick
October 30th, 2015, 10:48 AM
what?

the whole thing is a mystery
and
you can do with it what you will?

how convenient
Lodge your complaint with John, or whoever you think wrote this.

This chapter has specific language which calls for interpretation. "Mystery" in verses 5 & 7. "Here is the mind which has wisdom" in verse 9.

I am not alone in this interpretation.

Jarrod

daqq
October 30th, 2015, 11:11 AM
No, I mean the Canaanites that worked right beside the Israelites in the building of the temple (and other things):

1Kings 5:18
And Solomon's builders and Hiram's builders did hew them, and the stonesquarers: so they prepared timber and stones to build the house.

Without those workers no outsider gets in: 153,000 and 600, (2 Chronicles 2:2, 18, John 21:11) for the kingdom of the heavens is like a net, (Matthew 13:47-50). :)

Wick Stick
October 30th, 2015, 11:15 AM
Without those workers no outsider gets in: 153,000 and 600, (2 Chronicles 2:2, 18, John 21:11) for the kingdom of the heavens is like a net, (Matthew 13:47-50). :)
I think we're the stones there, not the quarrymen.

And of course, no outsider gets in, save that he first is made an insider. "I will make you a father of Goyim" says God to Abraham.

Jarrod

daqq
October 30th, 2015, 12:14 PM
I think we're the stones there, not the quarrymen.

And of course, no outsider gets in, save that he first is made an insider. "I will make you a father of Goyim" says God to Abraham.

Jarrod

Stones, pillars in the temple, (Revelation 3:12) workers, etc., but one analogy does not invalidate another in a "body" template with different "members" which make up the whole. Besides, some big fish have gold or silver coins, (Matthew 17:27) and precious stones in the belly but the captured carcass must be squeezed and put under great thlipsis before the head of gold comes forth from the mouth. But, yes, there will be no Canaanite in the House after that great day, (each in his or her own appointed times) like the Canaanite woman of Tyre, (Matthew 15:22-28) "O woman, great is your faith! so be it unto you even as you will", (and no doubt she was eventually grafted in, and no more a Canaanite, Zechariah 14:21). :)

1Mind1Spirit
October 30th, 2015, 12:47 PM
Stones, pillars in the temple, (Revelation 3:12) workers, etc., but one analogy does not invalidate another in a "body" template with different "members" which make up the whole. Besides, some big fish have gold or silver coins, (Matthew 17:27) and precious stones in the belly but the captured carcass must be squeezed and put under great thlipsis before the head of gold comes forth from the mouth. But, yes, there will be no Canaanite in the House after that great day, (each in his or her own appointed times) like the Canaanite woman of Tyre, (Matthew 15:22-28) "O woman, great is your faith! so be it unto you even as you will", (and no doubt she was eventually grafted in, and no more a Canaanite, Zechariah 14:21). :)

:thumb: :)

dialm
October 30th, 2015, 01:20 PM
I think I understand what you are saying, although not without a great deal of difficulty. I call myself a protestant Christian because I do reject the tenets of the Roman Catholic church. I am also a Historicist concerning eschatology. I do believe that little horn from Daniel 7 is the Papacy who made war on the saints and overcame them for times, time, and the dividing of time, (1260 day/years). I will be honest though, since I am an amillenialist, I am not sure whether or not the events described as the overthrow of Babylon the Great occured already in the late 17th and early 18th century. This is because in the description of Mystery Babylon she sits on seven hills while today the Vatical only sits upon one. The problem I have though with believing this overthrow already occured is because of how much power and influence she still has: which is astonishing and kept well-hidden.
Since I have lately started to think that Revelation is maybe not a chronilogical vision, but a group of visions describing the same events told in different ways and from different angles, then I am inclined to also believe it possible that the overthrow of Mystery Babylon and the consuming of Gog and Magog are one event together occuring at the glorious second coming of Christ.
Either way, it is prudent to say that old harlot has not changed her ways. Read the documents if Vatican II, the Codes of Canon Law, and the Catechism of the Catholic Church to see that she still opposes herself to God. She still thinks to change times and laws, and by her sorcery she has decieved the world. I don't hate Catholics. I don't hate Protestants or Evangelicals. I hate the enemy, Satan. He, by inspiring the doctrines of men that exault themselves above Scripture, intends to decieve men, slander Jesus Christ, and exault his own perverse philosophy. Jesus calls his elect out of her that they don't share in her judgement.
Let us all remain ever watchful with our lamps full of His oil, abiding in Him and His Word. Whatever else may come will. He is faithful and true: our King and High Priest. Let us heed His instruction, "But don't you be called 'Rabbi,' for one is your teacher, the Christ, and all of you are brothers. 9Call no man on the earth your father, for one is your Father, he who is in heaven. 10Neither be called masters, for one is your master, the Christ. 11But he who is greatest among you will be your servant. 12Whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and whoever humbles himself will be exalted." God bless you.

Very good posting.

Did you know that Martin Luther had reservations concerning the book of Revelation? These reservations had nothing to do with his former life as a Roman Catholic priest. It was theological. I tend to agree with Luther, (as a matter of fact almost always) it is theological.

But when a Roman Catholic quotes Revelation I am abliged to quote back. The Romans discount Revelation on the assumption that church past practice is higher than any and all scripture. This idea while not without merit has some problems. Would you agree?

Wick Stick
October 30th, 2015, 01:56 PM
Stones, pillars in the temple, (Revelation 3:12) workers, etc., but one analogy does not invalidate another in a "body" template with different "members" which make up the whole.
Of course both are valid. But which analogy does this passage belong to? I'd say it belongs more with "stones in the temple" than "parts in the body."

Jarrod

1Mind1Spirit
October 30th, 2015, 10:30 PM
In answer to the OP, the waiting is the hardest part.

Then it's not.......

9IXZIqxrj5E

dialm
October 31st, 2015, 03:50 AM
In answer to the OP, the waiting is the hardest part.

Then it's not.......

9IXZIqxrj5E

I will agree with you. And apply this thought to the Children of Israel who did not enter the Land. They didn't want to pay the price.

What was the price for entering the Land?

daqq
October 31st, 2015, 05:56 AM
Of course both are valid. But which analogy does this passage belong to? I'd say it belongs more with "stones in the temple" than "parts in the body."

Jarrod

From where have you arrived to the conclusion that these 153000 are Canaanites? The "wily Hivites", (Chiwiy, Chavah, Evites) did indeed become hewers of wood and drawers of water, (Joshua 9:21) but the hewers in this context are both the men of Hiram/Huram, (from Tyre) and some of those from Israel. However the 153000 workers of Solomon are the NUMBERED of the strangers among Israel. They are called Geriim in the 2Chronicles passage which was referenced previously. Even to this day the Noachides who JOIN themselves to Judaism are called Ger, (Geriim, which to be clear has nothing to do with "Girgashites", which are Canaanites, which are devils in the doctrine of Yeshua).

2 Chronicles 2:17 KJV
17. And Solomon numbered all the strangers (Geriym) that were in the land of Israel, after the numbering wherewith David his father had numbered them; and they were found an hundred and fifty thousand and three thousand and six hundred.

But as for the work we have a primary commandment from the Torah:

Exodus 25:1-9
1. And YHWH spoke unto Moshe, saying:
2. Speak unto the children of Israel, that they bring Me an offering: of every man that gives it willingly with his heart you shall take My offering.
3. And this is the offering which you shall take of them; gold, and silver, and brass:
4. And blue, and purple, and scarlet, and shesh-fine linen, and goat-hair:
5. And skins of rams tanned-dyed red, and skins of tachashim, and shittiim-acacia wood:
6. Oil for the light, spices for anointing oil, and for sweet incense:
7. Onyx stones, and stones to be set in the ephod, and in the breastplate.
8. And let them make Me a miqdash, that I may dwell among them:
9. According to all that I shew thee, after the pattern of the Mishkan, and the pattern of all the instruments thereof, even so shall you make it.

"Let them make Me a miqdash-sanctuary-temple, that I may dwell among them, according to all that I show you, according to the pattern of the Mishkan-Tabernacle."

And was Solomon not wise hearted when he built the temple? He says, YHWH has said that He will dwell in the araphel-thick darkness: and I have built an house of habitation for Thee and a place for Thy dwelling into olamim-forever." And then the king turned himself roundabout to face the people, and blessed the whole congregation of Yisrael, and all the congregation of Yisrael stood. And he said, "Blessed be YHWH Elohim of Yisrael", because even Solomon knew and understood that the people are the temple. Solomon never turns himself back around to face the newly constructed temple building made with the hands of men. Those who came to do the work became themselves the temple. Therefore "If you build it they will come", (the Father and the Son, John 14:23). And this is why Ezekiel states that the Father will be a little miqdash-chapel-temple for His people in all the places wheresoever they come; for the true people of Israel keep His commandments, which are Spirit, including Exodus 25:1-9 quoted above.

Ezekiel 11:16
16. Therefore say, Thus says Adonai YHWH, Although I have cast them far off among the heathen, and although I have scattered them among the lands, yet will I be to them as a little miqdash-sanctuary-chapel in the lands where they shall come.

But first the defiled miqdash-chapel of the old man, (Daniel 8:11) with fretting leprosy in its walls, (Leviticus 14:34-45, Zechariah 5:1-4) must be torn down and burned with fire, (Revelation 17:16). :)

1Mind1Spirit
October 31st, 2015, 11:33 AM
I will agree with you. And apply this thought to the Children of Israel who did not enter the Land. They didn't want to pay the price.

What was the price for entering the Land?

Pride and discontentment.

dialm
November 1st, 2015, 07:03 AM
Well, "Jousting at windmills" comes to mind....:confused:

Don't know much about them wind mills. But have ran into a few huff puffs. Them hot breath types don't fair so well up thar n dat hi country of my beloved Scottland. For it was up thar that the Roman wind ran its course and they were blown all the way back to 7 Steeples. Even that genius Adrian and his wall could not hold back Mr. Christian because of the mighty sword that did puncture the Roman

Windbag
Beebee
Dialm

dialm
November 1st, 2015, 07:07 AM
You have heard the song.
Played on the bagpipes.

Scotland the Brave

Wick Stick
November 2nd, 2015, 10:33 AM
From where have you arrived to the conclusion that these 153000 are Canaanites?
The men were from Hiram of Tyre. Tyre is a chief city of the Canaanites.

Moreover, the palm tree and the cherub are the symbols specifically of the king of Tyre (see Ezekiel). These same two symbols were included in the pattern of the temple, imprinted in gold leaf on the walls.

The story of Solomon and Hiram is not one in which paganism creeps up around the roots of the tree. It is a story of institutional corruption coming from the top down. Someone is planting tares (again), and this time, they've reached the throne room.



But as for the work we have a primary commandment from the Torah:

Exodus 25:1-9
1. And YHWH spoke unto Moshe, saying:
2. Speak unto the children of Israel, that they bring Me an offering: of every man that gives it willingly with his heart you shall take My offering.
3. And this is the offering which you shall take of them; gold, and silver, and brass:
4. And blue, and purple, and scarlet, and shesh-fine linen, and goat-hair:
5. And skins of rams tanned-dyed red, and skins of tachashim, and shittiim-acacia wood:
6. Oil for the light, spices for anointing oil, and for sweet incense:
7. Onyx stones, and stones to be set in the ephod, and in the breastplate.
8. And let them make Me a miqdash, that I may dwell among them:
9. According to all that I shew thee, after the pattern of the Mishkan, and the pattern of all the instruments thereof, even so shall you make it.

"Let them make Me a miqdash-sanctuary-temple, that I may dwell among them, according to all that I show you, according to the pattern of the Mishkan-Tabernacle."
There's a reason miqdash is translated sanctuary and not temple. The "sanctuary" of Exodus 25 is part and parcel of the tabernacle. It is simple to see in the list of ingredients provided - animal hides and acacia wood are called for. These are the primary ingredients for a tabernacle. A temple is supported by stones.


And was Solomon not wise hearted when he built the temple? He says, YHWH has said that He will dwell in the araphel-thick darkness: and I have built an house of habitation for Thee and a place for Thy dwelling into olamim-forever." And then the king turned himself roundabout to face the people, and blessed the whole congregation of Yisrael, and all the congregation of Yisrael stood. And he said, "Blessed be YHWH Elohim of Yisrael", because even Solomon knew and understood that the people are the temple. Solomon never turns himself back around to face the newly constructed temple building made with the hands of men. Those who came to do the work became themselves the temple. Therefore "If you build it they will come", (the Father and the Son, John 14:23). And this is why Ezekiel states that the Father will be a little miqdash-chapel-temple for His people in all the places wheresoever they come; for the true people of Israel keep His commandments, which are Spirit, including Exodus 25:1-9 quoted above.
Was King Schlomo aware that the people were the temple? It seems so. It would explain why the temple was constructed according to the pattern of a body.

But this does not speak well of him. Solomon oppressed the people and laid heavy taxes on them for the purpose of building a physical temple and a palace. We are essentially saying that he had full knowledge that he was prioritizing a physical temple over the spiritual temple.

Solomon was wise, yes - a bit too wise most of the time.

Jarrod

daqq
November 2nd, 2015, 11:16 AM
Was King Schlomo aware that the people were the temple? It seems so. It would explain why the temple was constructed according to the pattern of a body.

But this does not speak well of him. Solomon oppressed the people and laid heavy taxes on them for the purpose of building a physical temple and a palace. We are essentially saying that he had full knowledge that he was prioritizing a physical temple over the spiritual temple.

Solomon was wise, yes - a bit too wise most of the time.

Jarrod

In your understanding then the Scripture is broken:

The Congregation People-Temple:

2 Chronicles 7:12-16 KJV
12. And the Lord appeared to Solomon by night, and said unto him, I have heard thy prayer, and have chosen this place to myself for an house of sacrifice.
13. If I shut up heaven that there be no rain, or if I command the locusts to devour the land, or if I send pestilence among my people;
14. If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.
15. Now mine eyes shall be open, and mine ears attent unto the prayer that is made in this place.
16. For now have I chosen and sanctified this house, that my name may be there for ever: and mine eyes and mine heart shall be there perpetually.

The prayer that was heard was the prayer of dedication from the previous chapter, which is quoted below once more; and forever is pretty much forever, (olam) and perpetually is "all the days", (kal ha-yamiym).

The Temple building made with the hands of men:

2 Chronicles 7:17-22 KJV
17. And as for thee, if thou wilt walk before me, as David thy father walked, and do according to all that I have commanded thee, and shalt observe my statutes and my judgments;
18. Then will I stablish the throne of thy kingdom, according as I have covenanted with David thy father, saying, There shall not fail thee a man to be ruler in Israel.
19. But if ye turn away, and forsake my statutes and my commandments, which I have set before you, and shall go and serve other gods, and worship them;
20. Then will I pluck them up by the roots out of my land which I have given them; and this house, which I have sanctified for my name, will I cast out of my sight, and will make it to be a proverb and a byword among all nations.
21. And this house, which is high, shall be an astonishment to every one that passeth by it; so that he shall say, Why hath the Lord done thus unto this land, and unto this house?
22. And it shall be answered, Because they forsook the Lord God of their fathers, which brought them forth out of the land of Egypt, and laid hold on other gods, and worshipped them, and served them: therefore hath he brought all this evil upon them.

The heart of Solomon in this matter, (at least in the beginning) was this:

2 Chronicles 6:1-3 KJV
1. Then said Solomon, The Lord hath said that he would dwell in the thick darkness.
2. But I have built an house of habitation for thee, and a place for thy dwelling for ever.
3. And the king turned his face, and blessed the whole congregation of Israel: and all the congregation of Israel stood.

And, as previously stated, the king never turns back to face the Temple made with hands. :)

Wick Stick
November 2nd, 2015, 02:19 PM
In your understanding then the Scripture is broken:
I don't see how?

We seem to be in agreement about God indwelling the people, not the edifice Solomon built. You have written/quoted a good bit about it, but that's not even a point of contention. I assume this was mostly instructional for those reading along.

Is it in regards to whether Solomon was a good or righteous king? He wasn't, and this is explicit in 1 Kings 11:

And Solomon did evil in the sight of the LORD, and went not fully after the LORD, as David his father. ... Wherefore the LORD said unto Solomon, Forasmuch as this is done of thee, and thou hast not kept my covenant and my statutes, which I have commanded thee, I will surely rend the kingdom from thee, and will give it to thy servant. Notwithstanding in thy days I will not do it for David thy father's sake: I will rend it out of the hand of thy son.

Is it in regards to Solomon's intentions in building the temple?

1Kings records his words, but the words of a clever politician are not to be trusted. I had rather take my stand with the martyr Stephen, who, "being full of the Holy Ghost" seems to express the contrary:

David... found favour before God, and desired to find a [b]tabernacle for the God of Jacob. But Solomon built him an house. Howbeit the most High dwelleth not in temples made with hands; as saith the prophet. Acts 7:45-48

Jarrod