PDA

View Full Version : Bought and Washed, NOT Predestinated



Robert Pate
October 28th, 2015, 09:48 AM
Before anything happens to the Christian, he must be bought by Christ and washed in his blood.

"For you are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body and in your spirit, which are God's" 1 Corinthians 6:20.

"Forasmuch as you know that you were not redeemed with corruptable things, as silver and gold, but with the precious blood of Christ" 1 Peter 1:18, 19.

This idea that God runs people around Jesus Christ and predestinates them to salvation by declaring them saved, is not in the Bible and is not according to the Gospel.

God does NOTHING outside of his Son Jesus Christ.

All things are done through Jesus Christ, "He is before ALL THINGS and by him all things consist" Colossians 1:17.

Before anyone can be saved they must come to Christ as a repentant sinners. "Whosoever that shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved" Romans 10:13. If you are to proud to call on Christ to save you, you are not saved.

All that have come to Christ to be saved by him are then sealed with the Holy Spirit, Ephesians 1:13. After you are sealed with the Holy Spirit God places you "In Christ", Colossians 3:3. God doesn't see you anymore, he can only see you in Christ.

if you believe that God saves you WITHOUT Christ by predestinating you to salvation, you are sadly mistaken.

Brother Ducky
October 28th, 2015, 06:18 PM
if you believe that God saves you WITHOUT Christ by predestinating you to salvation, you are sadly mistaken.

Do you get paid by the repetitive threads you start? Just wondering.

And I know of no Reformed folk who would believe what you are saying. Are you aware of any who do hold this view?

heir
October 28th, 2015, 11:46 PM
Before anything happens to the Christian, he must be bought by Christ and washed in his blood.

"For you are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body and in your spirit, which are God's" 1 Corinthians 6:20.

"Forasmuch as you know that you were not redeemed with corruptable things, as silver and gold, but with the precious blood of Christ" 1 Peter 1:18, 19.

This idea that God runs people around Jesus Christ and predestinates them to salvation by declaring them saved, is not in the Bible and is not according to the Gospel.

God does NOTHING outside of his Son Jesus Christ.

All things are done through Jesus Christ, "He is before ALL THINGS and by him all things consist" Colossians 1:17.

Before anyone can be saved they must come to Christ as a repentant sinners. "Whosoever that shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved" Romans 10:13. If you are to proud to call on Christ to save you, you are not saved.

All that have come to Christ to be saved by him are then sealed with the Holy Spirit, Ephesians 1:13. After you are sealed with the Holy Spirit God places you "In Christ", Colossians 3:3. God doesn't see you anymore, he can only see you in Christ.

if you believe that God saves you WITHOUT Christ by predestinating you to salvation, you are sadly mistaken.I don't believe the hijacked Calvinistic version of predestination, but I do believe in the biblical one. The one that states:

Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Romans 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

...

Ephesians 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: ( see Rom 8:28-30 )

Ephesians 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

Ephesians 1:6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

Ephesians 1:7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;

Ephesians 1:8 Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence;

Ephesians 1:9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:

Ephesians 1:10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:

Ephesians 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

Ephesians 1:12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.

Ephesians 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

Ephesians 1:14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

God foreknowing who would believe and predestinating all of them to the above is scriptural.

heir
October 28th, 2015, 11:49 PM
Do you get paid by the repetitive threads you start? Just wondering.

And I know of no Reformed folk who would believe what you are saying. Are you aware of any who do hold this view?

Beloved 57

Ask Mr. Religion
October 29th, 2015, 12:07 AM
Beloved 57No.

B57 is not "Reformed folk" as was stated as the qualifier. Rather, b57 is but one of the vocal minority of heretics known as hyper-Calvinists (http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showthread.php?p=4480197#post4480197).



All Reformed are Calvinists.
Not all Calvinists are Reformed.

Quite plainly, a Calvinist is someone who affirms the doctrines of grace commonly defined by the acrostic, TULIP. In general, the word Reformed means those that affirm—without taking major scruples—one of the historical confessions of the Reformation era (Second Helvetic Confession, the Belgic Confession, the Heidelberg Catechism or the Westminster Standards), all of which which necessarily includes the doctrines of grace as well as specifics related to church polity, principles of worship, baptism, and much more.

AMR

Brother Ducky
October 29th, 2015, 05:14 AM
Beloved 57

It should be obvious that B57 is somewhat different from most of the Calvinists here.

I am not sure that even B57 would agree with Mr Pate here as written. At any rate, to rail at all Calvinists on the basis of what one errant person might or might not hold is hardly legitimate.

Basically at this time, Mr Pate makes up stuff about what Calvinists believe and runs with it, even after he has been repeatedly informed of his error.

chrysostom
October 29th, 2015, 05:39 AM
It should be obvious that B57 is somewhat different from most of the Calvinists here.

I am not sure that even B57 would agree with Mr Pate here as written. At any rate, to rail at all Calvinists on the basis of what one errant person might or might not hold is hardly legitimate.

Basically at this time, Mr Pate makes up stuff about what Calvinists believe and runs with it, even after he has been repeatedly informed of his error.

who speaks for the calvinists?
in a coherent manner
is there any common agreement?

heir
October 29th, 2015, 05:44 AM
Basically at this time, Mr Pate makes up stuff about what Calvinists believe and runs with it, even after he has been repeatedly informed of his error.As do many on this site. You are free to NOT engage him.

lifeisgood
October 29th, 2015, 06:23 AM
Tambora one time asked a Calvinist:
Do you tell your children when you put them to bed that God loves them?
Or do you tell them that they might be ones that were born only so God could send them to hell and there isn't a darn thing they can do about it?

No answer given.

Cedarbay
October 29th, 2015, 06:43 AM
Tambora one time asked a Calvinist:
Do you tell your children when you put them to bed that God loves them?
Or do you tell them that they might be ones that were born only so God could send them to hell and there isn't a darn thing they can do about it?

No answer given.Christians teach their children the Gospel of Jesus Christ through the Canon of Scripture.

The added blessing Reformed have are the Creeds and Confessions of the Christian Church. Here are some of the historical truths we pass on to our kids.

http://www.reformed.org/documents/

Please take a look at an oft overlooked creed, The Athanasian Creed, which is precise doctrine of the Holy Trinity and the Person of Christ.

Cedarbay
October 29th, 2015, 06:51 AM
who speaks for the calvinists?
in a coherent manner
is there any common agreement?Who speaks for the Catholics, Dispensationalists, SDA, JW, atheists, etc., in a coherent manner?

chrysostom
October 29th, 2015, 07:14 AM
Who speaks for the Catholics, ?

the pope

Robert Pate
October 29th, 2015, 08:08 AM
Do you get paid by the repetitive threads you start? Just wondering.

And I know of no Reformed folk who would believe what you are saying. Are you aware of any who do hold this view?

If you are not trusting in predestinationism or Calvinism, then why do you still embrace it?

Robert Pate
October 29th, 2015, 08:14 AM
I don't believe the hijacked Calvinistic version of predestination, but I do believe in the biblical one. The one that states:

Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Romans 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

...

Ephesians 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: ( see Rom 8:28-30 )

Ephesians 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

Ephesians 1:6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

Ephesians 1:7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;

Ephesians 1:8 Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence;

Ephesians 1:9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:

Ephesians 1:10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:

Ephesians 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

Ephesians 1:12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.

Ephesians 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

Ephesians 1:14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

God foreknowing who would believe and predestinating all of them to the above is scriptural.


And what if God doesn't know who will believe?

The angels in heaven apparently don't know who will believe, Luke 15:7 also Luke 15:10.

Robert Pate
October 29th, 2015, 08:18 AM
Christians teach their children the Gospel of Jesus Christ through the Canon of Scripture.

The added blessing Reformed have are the Creeds and Confessions of the Christian Church. Here are some of the historical truths we pass on to our kids.

http://www.reformed.org/documents/

Please take a look at an often forgotten creed, The Athanasian Creed, which is precise doctrine of the Holy Trinity.


What you are passing on to your children is religion.

Cedarbay
October 29th, 2015, 08:44 AM
What you are passing on to your children is religion.Religion seems to be a dirty word for you.

According to wiki - religions have narratives, symbols, and sacred histories that aim to explain the meaning of life, the origin of life. A collection of beliefs and cultural systems.

So, according to this definition, Christianity is a religion.

Cedarbay
October 29th, 2015, 08:50 AM
And what if God doesn't know who will believe?You've said this a few times. Can you clarify this?

Robert Pate
October 29th, 2015, 08:53 AM
Religion seems to be a dirty word for you.

According to wiki - religions have narratives, symbols, and sacred histories that aim to explain the meaning of life, the origin of life. A collection of beliefs and cultural systems.

So, according to this definition, Christianity is a religion.


Religion is basically anti-Christ.

Religious people are preoccupied with themselves, who is a sinner.

Their works, Their obedience, Their piety.

The Gospel is about Jesus Christ, His works, His obedience, His piety.

Sinners cannot save sinners, nor can sinners save themselves.

Cedarbay
October 29th, 2015, 08:58 AM
Religion is basically anti-Christ.

Religious people are preoccupied with themselves, who is a sinner.

Their works, Their obedience, Their piety.

The Gospel is about Jesus Christ, His works, His obedience, His piety.

Sinners cannot save sinners, nor can sinners save themselves.The Creeds are centered on Christ. Worship is centered on Christ. Doctrine is centered on Christ.

I agree with you about the Gospel. I also agree that Christ alone saves.

Robert Pate
October 29th, 2015, 09:03 AM
You've said this a few times. Can you clarify this?

God can limit himself.

When Jesus returns the saved will be identified by the indwelling Holy Spirit.

In the judgment it says that the books were opened to see who's name is written in the book of life, Revelation 20:12, 15.

Doesn't God know? Why is there a book?

Luke 15:10 says that the angels in heaven rejoice over one sinner that repents. Didn't they know ahead of time who that sinner was?

Robert Pate
October 29th, 2015, 09:06 AM
The Creeds are centered on Christ. Worship is centered on Christ. Doctrine is centered on Christ.

I agree with you about the Gospel. I also agree that Christ alone saves.

Much of the creeds are based upon law. What you should do to remain a Christian. The law says, Do something.

All that we need to do is have faith in Christ, plus NOTHING.

Cedarbay
October 29th, 2015, 09:10 AM
What you are passing on to your children is religion.Is there anything that you find objectionable in this statement?

"That I with body and soul, both in life and death, am not my own, but belong unto my faithful Saviour Jesus Christ;

who, with his precious blood, has fully satisfied for all my sins, and delivered me from all the power of the devil;

and so preserves me that without the will of my heavenly Father, not a hair can fall from my head;

yea, that all things must be subservient to my salvation, and therefore, by his Holy Spirit, He also assures me of eternal life, and makes me sincerely willing and ready, henceforth, to live unto him."

nikolai_42
October 29th, 2015, 09:12 AM
Much of the creeds are based upon law. What you should do to remain a Christian. The law says, Do something.

All that we need to do is have faith in Christ, plus NOTHING.

So is faith a work? If not, what determines if we have faith?

Cedarbay
October 29th, 2015, 09:15 AM
Much of the creeds are based upon law. What you should do to remain a Christian. The law says, Do something.

All that we need to do is have faith in Christ, plus NOTHING.I believe that our salvation in Christ is based upon His work alone.

The holy life of a Christian is lived out through the continued grace of God and His intercession on our behalf.

Robert Pate
October 29th, 2015, 09:19 AM
Is there anything that you find objectionable in this statement?

"That I with body and soul, both in life and death, am not my own, but belong unto my faithful Saviour Jesus Christ;

who, with his precious blood, has fully satisfied for all my sins, and delivered me from all the power of the devil;

and so preserves me that without the will of my heavenly Father, not a hair can fall from my head;

yea, that all things must be subservient to my salvation, and therefore, by his Holy Spirit, He also assures me of eternal life, and makes me sincerely willing and ready, henceforth, to live unto him."

No, but try this.

Jesus, in my name and on my behalf, has made me acceptable to God.

It is only by the doing and the dying of Jesus that I have been justified, sanctified and redeemed. I now stand complete "In Christ".

When God accepted Jesus into heaven, I was accepted in him.

Robert Pate
October 29th, 2015, 09:22 AM
So is faith a work? If not, what determines if we have faith?

Faith is a natural human attribute that we are all born with.

nikolai_42
October 29th, 2015, 09:22 AM
Faith is a natural human attribute that we are all born with.

So God-given?

Robert Pate
October 29th, 2015, 09:25 AM
I believe that our salvation in Christ is based upon His work alone.

The holy life of a Christian is lived out through the continued grace of God and His intercession on our behalf.

The reason that God leaves us on this earth is to be a witness for Christ and his Gospel.

Many of the early martyers went to their deaths singing songs about Jesus. A very strong witness.

Robert Pate
October 29th, 2015, 09:26 AM
So God-given?

All are given faith, so that all can believe.

Cedarbay
October 29th, 2015, 09:27 AM
No, but try this.

Jesus, in my name and on my behalf, has made me acceptable to God.

It is only by the doing and the dying of Jesus that I have been justified, sanctified and redeemed. I now stand complete "In Christ".

When God accepted Jesus into heaven, I was accepted in him.It seems you are saying that all the action for salvation is coming from God, true?

Cedarbay
October 29th, 2015, 09:41 AM
God can limit himself.

When Jesus returns the saved will be identified by the indwelling Holy Spirit.

In the judgment it says that the books were opened to see who's name is written in the book of life, Revelation 20:12, 15.

Doesn't God know? Why is there a book?

Luke 15:10 says that the angels in heaven rejoice over one sinner that repents. Didn't they know ahead of time who that sinner was?This is stunning. I am speechless. Please consider reading one of the historic Creeds of the Christian Church to understand the Omniscience of the Godhead.

The Psalms alone bring us to our knees, in His all-knowing Presence.

Robert Pate
October 29th, 2015, 09:43 AM
It seems you are saying that all the action for salvation is coming from God, true?

Right, All we do is believe. What happens after that is the work of the Holy Spirit.

Cedarbay
October 29th, 2015, 09:44 AM
No, but try this.

Jesus, in my name and on my behalf, has made me acceptable to God.

It is only by the doing and the dying of Jesus that I have been justified, sanctified and redeemed. I now stand complete "In Christ".

When God accepted Jesus into heaven, I was accepted in him.I'm happy to read that you agree with the statement.

It is from the Heidelberg Cathechism, Lord's Day One, Question One.

"That I with body and soul, both in life and death, am not my own, but belong unto my faithful Saviour Jesus Christ;

who, with his precious blood, has fully satisfied for all my sins, and delivered me from all the power of the devil;

and so preserves me that without the will of my heavenly Father, not a hair can fall from my head;

yea, that all things must be subservient to my salvation, and therefore, by his Holy Spirit, He also assures me of eternal life, and makes me sincerely willing and ready, henceforth, to live unto him."



This is the faith the Reformed teach their children.

Robert Pate
October 29th, 2015, 09:47 AM
This is stunning. I am speechless. Please consider reading one of the historic Creeds of the Christian Church to understand the Omniscience of the Godhead.

The Psalms alone bring us to our knees, in His all-knowing Presence.

God can limit himself.

God does not see what is going on, on the earth.

God sees ALL THINGS in his Son Jesus Christ, Colossians 1:20.

Nothing will be revealed until Christ returns and then everything will be revealed.

nikolai_42
October 29th, 2015, 09:50 AM
All are given faith, so that all can believe.

All are given ears so that all can hear. Do all hear? That is, do all really hear (not just physically)?

Cedarbay
October 29th, 2015, 09:50 AM
Right, All we do is believe. What happens after that is the work of the Holy Spirit.The faith to believe, is a work of God's grace.

Robert Pate
October 29th, 2015, 09:52 AM
The faith to believe, is a work of God's grace.

No, faith to believe is the results of hearing and believing the Gospel, Galatians 3:2.

Robert Pate
October 29th, 2015, 09:55 AM
All are given ears so that all can hear. Do all hear? That is, do all really hear (not just physically)?

The Holy Spirit is in the world calling all to come to Christ and be saved, Hebrews 3:15 also Revelation 3:20.

Cedarbay
October 29th, 2015, 09:55 AM
God can limit himself.

God does not see what is going on, on the earth.

God sees ALL THINGS in his Son Jesus Christ, Colossians 1:20.

Nothing will be revealed until Christ returns and then everything will be revealed.Trying to be respectful here, but these statements are one of the reasons why a systematic theology is so important. Reformed find that in many resources, including but not limited to it's Creeds and Confessions.

beloved57
October 29th, 2015, 09:57 AM
pate


Bought and Washed, NOT Predestinated

Scripture reference please ? Or this is another invalid comment not supported by scripture !

nikolai_42
October 29th, 2015, 10:02 AM
The Holy Spirit is in the world calling all to come to Christ and be saved, Hebrews 3:15 also Revelation 3:20.

That doesn't answer the question...do all REALLY hear?

And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables:
That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them.
Mark 4:11-12

Puppet
October 29th, 2015, 10:05 AM
Tambora one time asked a Calvinist:
Do you tell your children when you put them to bed that God loves them?
Or do you tell them that they might be ones that were born only so God could send them to hell and there isn't a darn thing they can do about it?

No answer given.

It's like Halloween. Tell the children Freddy isn't going to get them and yet the fearless children die in gruesome murders.

Why lie to children to make then less afraid. Tell them the team truth, the tulip

Robert Pate
October 29th, 2015, 10:06 AM
Trying to be respectful here, but these statements are one of the reasons why a systematic theology is so important. Reformed find that in many resources, including but not limited to it's Creeds and Confessions.

Creeds and confessions are worthless.

All that we need is the Bible. the Bible is a witness for Christ and his Gospel.

All that we need is the Gospel, plus NOTHING.

When we accept Christ as our savior we receive all that there is to receive. We are complete "In Christ" Colossians 2:10.

nikolai_42
October 29th, 2015, 10:09 AM
The Holy Spirit is in the world calling all to come to Christ and be saved, Hebrews 3:15 also Revelation 3:20.

When someone preaches against sin and how it brings God's judgment, what is the implication? Is it "Stop sinning or else!" or is it "You have no hope in yourself!"? To the one who doesn't hear, if either one of these messages hits home, it's the former - and that person will try and earn his way to heaven. But to the one who hears, the former sinks in and that person turns to Christ. But do they do so because they choose to? No. It's because the Holy Spirit was working in them as you quote in those verses. They aren't forced, but just as the sleepwalker who awakes to find himself stepping over a cliff, the sinner doesn't need to be convinced of his situation - he can't save himself. All that is the work of God. He wakens the sinner and shows him his situation and then saves them as they call out to Him. For if they TRULY see and hear, they will know beyond a shadow of a doubt that they can do nothing of themselves and only He can save them. But even that is a work of His Spirit.

EDIT : In summary, the opening of the eyes and ears reveals the truth and there is no need to convince that person (who has been so enlightened) to believe. All this is of God.

Robert Pate
October 29th, 2015, 10:10 AM
It's like Halloween. Tell the children Freddy isn't going to get them and yet the fearless children die in gruesome murders.

Why lie to children to make then less afraid. Tell them the team truth, the tulip

TULIP is a horror story.

The "L" is a declaration by God that his Son Jesus Christ is a liar and a failure. Don't trust in him or believe him. Thats the message of Calvinism.

Robert Pate
October 29th, 2015, 10:19 AM
When someone preaches against sin and how it brings God's judgment, what is the implication? Is it "Stop sinning or else!" or is it "You have no hope in yourself!"? To the one who doesn't hear, if either one of these messages hits home, it's the former - and that person will try and earn his way to heaven. But to the one who hears, the former sinks in and that person turns to Christ. But do they do so because they choose to? No. It's because the Holy Spirit was working in them as you quote in those verses. They aren't forced, but just as the sleepwalker who awakes to find himself stepping over a cliff, the sinner doesn't need to be convinced of his situation - he can't save himself. All that is the work of God. He wakens the sinner and shows him his situation and then saves them as they call out to Him. For if they TRULY see and hear, they will know beyond a shadow of a doubt that they can do nothing of themselves and only He can save them. But even that is a work of His Spirit.

EDIT : In summary, the opening of the eyes and ears reveals the truth and there is no need to convince that person (who has been so enlightened) to believe. All this is of God.

The Holy Spirit prompts people to come to Christ. He can be resisted by the human will. I rejected the call of the Holy Spirit for years. The Gospel calls for a responce. If one hears that Christ died on the cross for their sins and does nothing, that is a responce.

Little children come to know Christ as their savior because they have not become sophisticated by the world.

nikolai_42
October 29th, 2015, 10:21 AM
The Holy Spirit prompts people to come to Christ. He can be resisted by the human will. I rejected the call of the Holy Spirit for years. The Gospel calls for a responce. If one hears that Christ died on the cross for their sins and does nothing, that is a responce.

You also testified that, when you came to Him, that you said "I can't resist". Even so, those that resist are still blinded. The Lord has not opened their eyes and ears.


Little children come to know Christ as their savior because they have not become sophisticated by the world.

beloved57
October 29th, 2015, 10:45 AM
The Holy Spirit prompts people to come to Christ. He can be resisted by the human will. I rejected the call of the Holy Spirit for years. The Gospel calls for a responce. If one hears that Christ died on the cross for their sins and does nothing, that is a responce.

Little children come to know Christ as their savior because they have not become sophisticated by the world.

False Teaching !

You still reject the Gospel ! Calvinism is the Gospel, dont you reject it ? Yes or No ?

Grosnick Marowbe
October 29th, 2015, 11:13 AM
False Teaching !

You still reject the Gospel ! Calvinism is the Gospel, dont you reject it ? Yes or No ?

The simple conclusion is, Pate is right and B57 is wrong. Everyone
knows B57 is wrong except B57 and Nanja.

Grosnick Marowbe
October 29th, 2015, 11:17 AM
No, faith to believe is the results of hearing and believing the Gospel, Galatians 3:2.

Amen

heir
October 29th, 2015, 12:24 PM
Tambora one time asked a Calvinist:
Do you tell your children when you put them to bed that God loves them?
Or do you tell them that they might be ones that were born only so God could send them to hell and there isn't a darn thing they can do about it?

No answer given.I often ask those who are Calvinists when was there ever a moment in their life when they trusted the Lord AFTER hearing and believing the word of truth, the gospel of their salvation and get the same response.

heir
October 29th, 2015, 12:25 PM
Christians teach their children the Gospel of Jesus Christ through the Canon of Scripture. Which gospel?

heir
October 29th, 2015, 12:28 PM
And what if God doesn't know who will believe?
The scripture says he does. That's good enough for me. Why do you fight that those whom God foreknew, He predestinated? It's right there in Romans 8 and elsewhere.

And just so you know, my question has zero, nada, zilch to do with Calvinism.

beloved57
October 29th, 2015, 01:10 PM
Creeds and confessions are worthless.

All that we need is the Bible. the Bible is a witness for Christ and his Gospel.

All that we need is the Gospel, plus NOTHING.

When we accept Christ as our savior we receive all that there is to receive. We are complete "In Christ" Colossians 2:10.

You don't believe the Gospel!

ttruscott
October 29th, 2015, 02:47 PM
Predestined to be bought and washed...

Robert Pate
October 29th, 2015, 02:48 PM
You also testified that, when you came to Him, that you said "I can't resist". Even so, those that resist are still blinded. The Lord has not opened their eyes and ears.

The call was very strong, but I believe that I could have resisted.

He that so loves the world that he gives his only begotten Son and is not willing that any should perish is long-suffering towards the lost.

You have a wrong view of the nature and character of God.

Robert Pate
October 29th, 2015, 02:50 PM
The scripture says he does. That's good enough for me. Why do you fight that those whom God foreknew, He predestinated? It's right there in Romans 8 and elsewhere.

And just so you know, my question has zero, nada, zilch to do with Calvinism.

There is no scripture that says God has predestinated anyone to salvation.

Robert Pate
October 29th, 2015, 02:51 PM
Predestined to be bought and washed...

There is no scripture that says God has predestinated anyone to salvation.

heir
October 29th, 2015, 03:29 PM
There is no scripture that says God has predestinated anyone to salvation.We've been over this before and you still aren't listening. Those to whom God foreknew would believe (that being our gospel 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV) are predestinated. It doesn't say He "made us know" which is what you insist on attaching to anyone (like me) who says we are predestinated as you see Calvin whenever that word is brought up even though it's a very good, sound, biblical word.

God having foreknowledge (having knowledge of beforehand) of who would and will believe ("according as He hath chosen us in Him before the foundation of the world") and predestinating them (us) has everything to do with our adoption ("unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of his will").

Robert Pate
October 29th, 2015, 04:05 PM
We've been over this before and you still aren't listening. Those to whom God foreknew would believe (that being our gospel 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV) are predestinated. It doesn't say He "made us know" which is what you insist on attaching to anyone (like me) who says we are predestinated as you see Calvin whenever that word is brought up even though it's a very good, sound, biblical word.

God having foreknowledge (having knowledge of beforehand) of who would and will believe ("according as He hath chosen us in Him before the foundation of the world") and predestinating them (us) has everything to do with our adoption ("unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of his will").

God chose all of humanity in his Son Jesus Christ, Ephesians 1:4.

We know this to be true because God reconciled the whole world unto himself by Jesus Christ, 2 Corinthians 5:19.

The word "Forknew" or "Forknowledge" does not necessarily mean that God knows ahead of time who will accept his Son Jesus Christ.

What it means is that God has forknowledge that some will believe on his Son Jesus Christ and be conformed to his image. Who the some are remains to be seen.

Ask Mr. Religion
October 29th, 2015, 05:00 PM
Tambora one time asked a Calvinist:
Do you tell your children when you put them to bed that God loves them?
No answer given.I wonder what "Calvinist" was actually asked this question. A Baptist Calvinist may have a different answer given their credo-baptistic view, versus the Reformed paedo-baptistic view.

As to the latter (my own view), the children of believers of the Reformed view most certainly do so as their children have been baptized and are considered, if and until demonstrating otherwise, to be children of the promise in the convenant.

You have your answer.

Perhaps we need a thread (in the ECT forum only (http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=21)) wherein verifiable sincerely asked questions that have not been answered by the Calvinist and/or Reformed are posed. I know of no one holding these views that refuses to answer. Obviously, questions asked with the purpose of mockery and holding one in disdain possess no obligatory warrant upon the Calvinist or Reformed to answer. Persons that do not want to make their questions known publicly are free to PM me anytime and I will do my best to provide a reasoned response.

AMR

Ask Mr. Religion
October 29th, 2015, 05:11 PM
God can limit himself.

God does not see what is going on, on the earth.

God sees ALL THINGS in his Son Jesus Christ, Colossians 1:20.

Nothing will be revealed until Christ returns and then everything will be revealed.Yikes! Apparently the devil knows more about what is going on down here than Almighty God.

Another keeper to add to this ongoing list of Robert's heterodoxies:

http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showthread.php?p=4402162#post4402162

AMR

Ask Mr. Religion
October 29th, 2015, 05:16 PM
I often ask those who are Calvinists when was there ever a moment in their life when they trusted the Lord AFTER hearing and believing the word of truth, the gospel of their salvation and get the same response.
Who exactly are you asking?

There was never a moment I did not assent, trust, and believe (i.e., faith) after being re-born (regenerated) by ordinary means of the hearing of the Good News. For to claim otherwise is to claim one can believe before actually being re-born. This is contrary to Scripture, for no one can have faith unless God grants it.

You have your answer.

AMR

Ask Mr. Religion
October 29th, 2015, 05:36 PM
Creeds and confessions are worthless.

All that we need is the Bible. the Bible is a witness for Christ and his Gospel.

Says the man who just made a confession. Each time you post your own thoughts about this or that you are confessing what you believe. Your creed is your own words. Yet, when others having been indwelt by the same Spirit you claim speak to what they believe, you cry, "Man made creed, confession!"

We all confess something about what we believe, else we stand for nothing and fall for everything.

The confessions serve a purpose of unifying a community of saints, for instruction, and for growth in one walks of faith. None of them are infallible, and all so state, for the norming norm is Scripture.

Your "Just Me and My Bible" claim is to effectively to state that anytime someone summarizes what they believe to be an accurate teaching of Scripture, that they have made worthless statements. Given that, you are the champion of worthlessness given the hundreds of repetitive threads you have made containing all your man-made declarations.

Your statement is just self-righteousness wrapped in foolishness. The Scripture is clear about admonishing the church to confess the patterns of its sound teachings. All your fawning over Brinsmead, whom you claim taught you so much, speaks to your own willingness to absorb the confessions of others.

Don't be double-minded, Robert. :AMR:

AMR

Puppet
October 29th, 2015, 06:11 PM
Yikes! Apparently the devil knows more about what is going on down here than Almighty God.

Another keeper to add to this ongoing list of Robert's heterodoxies:

http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showthread.php?p=4402162#post4402162

AMR

Y I K E S ! ! !

Puppet
October 29th, 2015, 06:12 PM
I'm outta here !

Brother Ducky
October 29th, 2015, 06:18 PM
There is no scripture that says God has predestinated anyone to salvation.

Acts 13:48
And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord, and as many as were appointed to eternal life believed.

Brother Ducky
October 29th, 2015, 06:19 PM
There is no scripture that says God has predestinated anyone to salvation.

Acts 13:48
And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord, and as many as were appointed to eternal life believed.

heir
October 29th, 2015, 09:33 PM
God chose all of humanity in his Son Jesus Christ, Ephesians 1:4.No, Robert. Ephesians is written TO believers (Ephesians 1:1 KJV). This is about adoption and inheritance.


We know this to be true because God reconciled the whole world unto himself by Jesus Christ, 2 Corinthians 5:19.We're not talking reconciliation of the world,

God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto Himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them (2 Corinthians 5:19 KJV) as God the Father made Christ to be sins for us that we might be made the righteousness of God in Him (2 Corinthians 5:21 KJV).

And even with that said, even though the righteousness of God which is by faith OF Jesus Christ is unto all, it is only upon all them that believe (Romans 3:21-22 KJV). The man Christ Jesus gave Himself a ransom for all (1 Timiothy 2:4-6 KJV), but not all will receive the love of the truth that they can be saved (2 Thessalonians 2:10 KJV).

Reconciliation is not the same subject! We're talking about being predestinated unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to Himself!

Ephesians 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:

Ephesians 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: ( see Rom 8:28-30 )

Ephesians 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

Ephesians 1:6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.



The word "Forknew" or "Forknowledge" does not necessarily mean that God knows ahead of time who will accept his Son Jesus Christ.I believe it means what it says.

Romans 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Romans 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.


What it means is that God has forknowledge that some will believe on his Son Jesus Christ and be conformed to his image. Who the some are remains to be seen.Men sure are on a power trip and can't let God have what is clearly His and in this case, His foreknowledge. You mean that it remains to be seen for you, but it says God foreknew! And PTL too that based upon that foreknowledge, He'll know exactly when to shout and deliver us out of this present evil world (Galatians 1:3-5 KJV, 1 Thessalonians 4:16-18 KJV)!

beloved57
October 30th, 2015, 02:53 AM
No, Robert. Ephesians is written TO believers (Ephesians 1:1 KJV). This is about adoption and inheritance.

We're not talking reconciliation of the world,

God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto Himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them (2 Corinthians 5:19 KJV) as God the Father made Christ to be sins for us that we might be made the righteousness of God in Him (2 Corinthians 5:21 KJV).

And even with that said, even though the righteousness of God which is by faith OF Jesus Christ is unto all, it is only upon all them that believe (Romans 3:21-22 KJV). The man Christ Jesus gave Himself a ransom for all (1 Timiothy 2:4-6 KJV), but not all will receive the love of the truth that they can be saved (2 Thessalonians 2:10 KJV).

Reconciliation is not the same subject! We're talking about being predestinated unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to Himself!

Ephesians 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:

Ephesians 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: ( see Rom 8:28-30 )

Ephesians 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

Ephesians 1:6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.


I believe it means what it says.

Romans 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Romans 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

Men sure are on a power trip and can't let God have what is clearly His and in this case, His foreknowledge. You mean that it remains to be seen for you, but it says God foreknew! And PTL too that based upon that foreknowledge, He'll know exactly when to shout and deliver us out of this present evil world (Galatians 1:3-5 KJV, 1 Thessalonians 4:16-18 KJV)!

False teaching!

beloved57
October 30th, 2015, 02:56 AM
There is no scripture that says God has predestinated anyone to salvation.

This comment shows the carnal mind is at enmity against God! Rom 8:7-8

Brother Ducky
October 30th, 2015, 05:31 AM
If you are not trusting in predestinationism or Calvinism, then why do you still embrace it?

I believe that the Reformed system is the best summary of what the Bible teaches. Are there problematical verses? Of course there are. Are there problematical verses for any other system? Of course there are.

I do not trust Calvinism. I trust the God of the Bible.

Cedarbay
October 30th, 2015, 06:42 AM
Who exactly are you asking?

There was never a moment I did not assent, trust, and believe (i.e., faith) after being re-born (regenerated) by ordinary means of the hearing of the Good News. For to claim otherwise is to claim one can believe before actually being re-born. This is contrary to Scripture, for no one can have faith unless God grants it.

You have your answer.

AMRSimply, well said.

lifeisgood
October 30th, 2015, 06:50 AM
I wonder what "Calvinist" was actually asked this question. A Baptist Calvinist may have a different answer given their credo-baptistic view, versus the Reformed paedo-baptistic view.

As to the latter (my own view), the children of believers of the Reformed view most certainly do so as their children have been baptized and are considered, if and until demonstrating otherwise, to be children of the promise in the convenant.

You have your answer.

Perhaps we need a thread (in the ECT forum only (http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=21)) wherein verifiable sincerely asked questions that have not been answered by the Calvinist and/or Reformed are posed. I know of no one holding these views that refuses to answer. Obviously, questions asked with the purpose of mockery and holding one in disdain possess no obligatory warrant upon the Calvinist or Reformed to answer. Persons that do not want to make their questions known publicly are free to PM me anytime and I will do my best to provide a reasoned response.

AMR

B57 was the Calvinist in question. There was no mockery involved in the question posed to this particular Calvinist in the particular thread. He still has not answered the question.

I do not believe God predestined people to salvation/damnation.

I believe God predestined His Plan of Salvation - Jesus Christ and His work at the Cross.

Whosoever (man/woman/boy/girl) will call on the Name of the Lord, the Lord will save.

Whosoever (man/woman/boy/girl) name will be found written in God's book, God has saved.

One of the reason I dislike immensely, I mean immensely, names/titles over people, e.g., I'm a Calvinist, etc., all it does is bring divisiveness in the BOC, the same when people say, I'm African-American, etc., all it brings is divisiveness in this Country.

No, I am a Christian.
No, I am an American.

heir
October 30th, 2015, 10:14 AM
Who exactly are you asking?

There was never a moment I did not assent, trust, and believe (i.e., faith) after being re-born (regenerated) by ordinary means of the hearing of the Good News. What did you hear? How were you saved?
For to claim otherwise is to claim one can believe before actually being re-born. Please get your terms straight. We are not "reborn", but a new creature (2 Corinthians 5:17 KJV). The washing of regeneration was shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Lord (Titus 3:5-6 KJV). IOW, it was His washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost, not ours.
This is contrary to Scripture, for no one can have faith unless God grants it.God will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth as the man Christ Jesus gave Himself a ransom for ALL to be testified in due time (1 Timothy 2:4-6 KJV). God will save anyone today, anywhere, no matter what they were doing while they were there when they believe on the Lord Jesus Christ.

jamie
October 30th, 2015, 11:46 AM
We are not "reborn", but a new creature (2 Corinthians 5:17 KJV).


Is being reborn different from being born again?


Jesus answered and said to him, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.”
(John 3:3 NKJV)

beloved57
October 30th, 2015, 02:31 PM
What did you hear? How were you saved? Please get your terms straight. We are not "reborn", but a new creature (2 Corinthians 5:17 KJV). The washing of regeneration was shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Lord (Titus 3:5-6 KJV). IOW, it was His washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost, not ours. God will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth as the man Christ Jesus gave Himself a ransom for ALL to be testified in due time (1 Timothy 2:4-6 KJV). God will save anyone today, anywhere, no matter what they were doing while they were there when they believe on the Lord Jesus Christ.

False teaching, God has promised Salvation to One particular people, Israel Isa45:17 and Jesus was raised a Savior unto Israel Acts 13:23 !

Ask Mr. Religion
October 30th, 2015, 03:28 PM
B57 was the Calvinist in question. There was no mockery involved in the question posed to this particular Calvinist in the particular thread. He still has not answered the question. You could have simply stated that clearly in your post I responded to instead of your broadly worded "Tambora one time asked a Calvinist:". Why the omission as if to give the impression that any person claiming to be a Calvinist is unwilling to answer?


I do not believe God predestined people to salvation/damnation.

I believe God predestined His Plan of Salvation - Jesus Christ and His work at the Cross.

Whosoever (man/woman/boy/girl) will call on the Name of the Lord, the Lord will save.

Whosoever (man/woman/boy/girl) name will be found written in God's book, God has saved.
Then you actually do believe in predestination. Only the folks like b57 believe God created from an unfallen mass of humanity persons destined for Hell. The Reformed believe that this lump of clay was a fallen mass of humanity out of which merciful God chose some to be saved and chose not to choose others to be saved, leaving them therefore in their sin. A fallen humanity deserves nothing but justice from God, not mercy. Mercy is getting what you do not deserve, justice is getting what you do. That God chose to save even one single person should make all rejoice in His bountiful mercy.

If I understand you correctly, your stated view is that God's predestined plan to redeem any and all who call upon the Lord based upon the Lord's active and passive obedience will be saved and that those so saved actually have their names in the Book of Life. I certainly believe all who call upon the Lord will be saved and no one but God knows who those persons are, too. I am not seeing how you think you have escaped believing that God actually chose those that will actually call upon Him. Did God not know?


One of the reason I dislike immensely, I mean immensely, names/titles over people, e.g., I'm a Calvinist, etc., all it does is bring divisiveness in the BOC, the same when people say, I'm African-American, etc., all it brings is divisiveness in this Country.

No, I am a Christian.
No, I am an American.You used two labels, so there is that. ;)

Accordingly, these sort of "I refuse to be labeled" claims ring hollow to me and piques my normal curiosity. As soon as someone begins to lay out what he or she believes, there is normally an appropriate, albeit not always exact, label for said beliefs. These labels move a discussion about sacred matters forward, else much time is spent sorting out what one believes about this or that when all the while descriptors for said beliefs exist to jump start the discussion. Stating you are a "Christian" is wonderful for most situations. Yet, the Mormon or JW knocking on my door says the same. Are you a Mormon? A JW? How do I (or anyone) know with whom I am discussing a matter of deep importance with without a more accurate understanding of where their beliefs begin and end? If you are content to be a "Christian" (a label) and you are greeting another who uses the same label who after some discussion you learn to be a Mormon or a JW, do you not think "He or she is not a Christian?" Again, "not a Christian" is a label.

In discussions involving Scripture doctrine, one must be more precise and fortunately history of the church militant has afforded various labels to aid in that precision. We should not fear these labels, but embrace them where they are generally accurate and, if necessary, take the time to explain where one may depart from what the label assumes. Are you a Protestant? Another label. Do you know what you are protesting as a Protestant?

That said, I wholeheartedly agree that labels may lead to distress. I am comfortable being labeled Reformed and/or Calvinist. One need not look far to see (as in this thread) how these labels lead to all manner of nonsense from those that do not take the time to actually understand what the labels actually mean. Sadly, persons constructing straw men of Calvinists' or Reformeds' views by claiming we operate from the same presuppositions they do and therefore believe about our beliefs what they believe about our beliefs leaves no real hope for honest discussion.

If such persons would avail themselves of an accurate summary of our beliefs, e.g., WCF (http://www.reformed.org/documents/wcf_with_proofs/), with a nice exposition of the same here (http://www.reformed.org/documents/shaw/), much clarity would ensue. Unfortunately some prefer to just parrot others in discussion forums and not dig deeper.

AMR

Ask Mr. Religion
October 30th, 2015, 04:08 PM
What did you hear? How were you saved? Asked and answered (http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showthread.php?p=4202313#post4202313).


Please get your terms straight.
Exactly what I mean when I noted:


Obviously, questions asked with the purpose of mockery and holding one in disdain possess no obligatory warrant upon the Calvinist or Reformed to answer.

My kingdom for a honest discussion with the reasoned irenic. ;)

Nevertheless, I will indulge you for just a wee bit. :AMR:


We are not "reborn", but a new creature (2 Corinthians 5:17 KJV). Your quibble is with Our Lord, not me.

http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1635831#post1635831

I tend to use regenerated (the common word of the Reformation before happy-clappy Finneyism) to signify what others call "being born again" or "being re-born". Sometimes I omit "regenerated (http://www.biblestudytools.com/dictionary/regeneration/)" as it is sadly a trigger word for the rabid anti-Calvinist or just those new to deeper discussions of theology.

AMR

Puppet
October 30th, 2015, 05:06 PM
Asked and answered (http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showthread.php?p=4202313#post4202313).


Exactly what I mean when I noted:



My kingdom for a honest discussion with the reasoned irenic. ;)

Nevertheless, I will indulge you for just a wee bit. :AMR:

Your quibble is with Our Lord, not me.

http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1635831#post1635831

I tend to use regenerated (the common word of the Reformation before happy-clappy Finneyism) to signify what others call "being born again" or "being re-born". Sometimes I omit "regenerated (http://www.biblestudytools.com/dictionary/regeneration/)" as it is sadly a trigger word for the rabid anti-Calvinist or just those new to deeper discussions of theology.

AMR

STAY away from Finneyism !!!!

ttruscott
October 30th, 2015, 05:49 PM
There is no scripture that says God has predestinated anyone to salvation.

Sure it does for those who have the ears to hear:

Romans 8:29 For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters.

Do you want to argue that a sinner can be conformed to the image of HIS Son WITHOUT being redeemed, reborn or 'saved' as you put it?

And
Romans 8:30 And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.

Do you really want to argue that those HE justifies are not saved? Or that those HE glorifies are not saved? Or that they were not predestined to this salvation?

The problem is not in the lack of scripture but in your ignoring the meaning of such verses for your own pride.

Robert Pate
October 31st, 2015, 02:51 PM
Sure it does for those who have the ears to hear:

Romans 8:29 For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters.

Do you want to argue that a sinner can be conformed to the image of HIS Son WITHOUT being redeemed, reborn or 'saved' as you put it?

And
Romans 8:30 And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.

Do you really want to argue that those HE justifies are not saved? Or that those HE glorifies are not saved? Or that they were not predestined to this salvation?

The problem is not in the lack of scripture but in your ignoring the meaning of such verses for your own pride.


The only predestinated ones in Romans 8:30 are the ones that were predestinated to be conformed to the image of his Son.

The scripture does not say that they were predestinated to salvation.

Conformed to the image of his Son
Called.
Justified.
Glorified.

Nothing about predestinated to salvation.

beloved57
October 31st, 2015, 03:03 PM
The only predestinated ones in Romans 8:30 are the ones that were predestinated to be conformed to the image of his Son.

The scripture does not say that they were predestinated to salvation.

Conformed to the image of his Son
Called.
Justified.
Glorified.

Nothing about predestinated to salvation.

Its the same thing, Jesus Christ is Salvation ! When the OLD Patriarch Simenon seen the babe Christ Lk 2:25-30


25 And, behold, there was a man in Jerusalem, whose name was Simeon; and the same man was just and devout, waiting for the consolation of Israel: and the Holy Ghost was upon him.

26 And it was revealed unto him by the Holy Ghost, that he should not see death, before he had seen the Lord's Christ.

27 And he came by the Spirit into the temple: and when the parents brought in the child Jesus, to do for him after the custom of the law,

28 Then took he him up in his arms, and blessed God, and said,

29 Lord, now lettest thou thy servant depart in peace, according to thy word:

30 For mine eyes have seen thy salvation,


To be conformed to the Image of Christ, one must be saved from the penalty, power of sin, thats Salvation, also its a work of the Spirit 2 Cor 3:18

But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.

pate, you really sound like a foolish man, all because you reject the Gospel !

Robert Pate
October 31st, 2015, 08:44 PM
Its the same thing, Jesus Christ is Salvation ! When the OLD Patriarch Simenon seen the babe Christ Lk 2:25-30



To be conformed to the Image of Christ, one must be saved from the penalty, power of sin, thats Salvation, also its a work of the Spirit 2 Cor 3:18

But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.

pate, you really sound like a foolish man, all because you reject the Gospel !


God has reconciled the whole world to himself by Jesus Christ, 2 Corinthians 5:19. No one has been predestinated.

beloved57
November 1st, 2015, 11:03 AM
God has reconciled the whole world to himself by Jesus Christ, 2 Corinthians 5:19. No one has been predestinated.

False teaching, for millions upon millions are under Gods condemnation and wrath John 3:18,36 how can they be reconciled to God? They are not!

Robert Pate
November 1st, 2015, 04:51 PM
False teaching, for millions upon millions are under Gods condemnation and wrath John 3:18,36 how can they be reconciled to God? They are not!

You think that there is something wrong with the Bible.

There is nothing wrong with the Bible, but there is plenty wrong with you.

You don't understand it because you are void of the Holy Spirit.

beloved57
November 1st, 2015, 05:23 PM
You think that there is something wrong with the Bible.

There is nothing wrong with the Bible, but there is plenty wrong with you.

You don't understand it because you are void of the Holy Spirit.

Explain how men and women under Gods Wrath and condemnation are also reconciled to God? That is a contradiction!

lifeisgood
November 1st, 2015, 05:53 PM
You could have simply stated that clearly in your post I responded to instead of your broadly worded "Tambora one time asked a Calvinist:". Why the omission as if to give the impression that any person claiming to be a Calvinist is unwilling to answer?

I ask your forgiveness. It was not my intention to imply that Calvinists are unwilling to answer. I wasn't sure who was the person Tambora was addressing, I had to go and research. I will be more careful next time.


Then you actually do believe in predestination. Only the folks like b57 believe God created from an unfallen mass of humanity persons destined for Hell. The Reformed believe that this lump of clay was a fallen mass of humanity out of which merciful God chose some to be saved and chose not to choose others to be saved, leaving them therefore in their sin. A fallen humanity deserves nothing but justice from God, not mercy. Mercy is getting what you do not deserve, justice is getting what you do. That God chose to save even one single person should make all rejoice in His bountiful mercy.

I believe that what is predestined is God's Plan of Salvation. Not people.


If I understand you correctly, your stated view is that God's predestined plan to redeem any and all who call upon the Lord based upon the Lord's active and passive obedience will be saved and that those so saved actually have their names in the Book of Life. I certainly believe all who call upon the Lord will be saved and no one but God knows who those persons are, too. I am not seeing how you think you have escaped believing that God actually chose those that will actually call upon Him. Did God not know?

I believe God has foreknowledge.

I do not believe God forces anyone to call upon His name.


You used two labels, so there is that. ;)

Accordingly, these sort of "I refuse to be labeled" claims ring hollow to me and piques my normal curiosity. As soon as someone begins to lay out what he or she believes, there is normally an appropriate, albeit not always exact, label for said beliefs. These labels move a discussion about sacred matters forward, else much time is spent sorting out what one believes about this or that when all the while descriptors for said beliefs exist to jump start the discussion. Stating you are a "Christian" is wonderful for most situations. Yet, the Mormon or JW knocking on my door says the same. Are you a Mormon? A JW? How do I (or anyone) know with whom I am discussing a matter of deep importance with without a more accurate understanding of where their beliefs begin and end? If you are content to be a "Christian" (a label) and you are greeting another who uses the same label who after some discussion you learn to be a Mormon or a JW, do you not think "He or she is not a Christian?" Again, "not a Christian" is a label.

I meant to say that 'labels' over people only brings divisiveness in the BOC, the same when people say, I'm African-American, etc., all it brings is divisiveness in this Country.

For me Christian, is not a label. It is a way of life.
For me I am an American, is not a label. It is freedom (well, until there will be no more freedom).

For me the only label I accept for believers is Christian.
For me the only label I accept as being a part of this Country is American.
Protestant, Reformed, Catholic, Evangelical, Baptist, ad nauseum, is irrelevant for me. It only brings divisiveness to the BOC.
African-American, Mexico-American, Brazilian-American, ad nauseum, is irrelevant for me. It only brings divisiveness to this Country.

The point is what 'labels' promote - divisiveness.

When I ask someone, Have you accepted the Lord Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior?
I do not want to hear 'I am a Calvinist.' 'I am a Pentecostal.' 'I am a Baptist.'
I want to hear I am a Christian.


In discussions involving Scripture doctrine, one must be more precise and fortunately history of the church militant has afforded various labels to aid in that precision. We should not fear these labels, but embrace them where they are generally accurate and, if necessary, take the time to explain where one may depart from what the label assumes. Are you a Protestant? Another label. Do you know what you are protesting as a Protestant?

I am not afraid of labels. I am sorry if I gave that impression.
I am afraid of what labels produce most of the time - divisiveness.

Puppet
November 3rd, 2015, 08:19 AM
TULIP is a horror story.

The "L" is a declaration by God that his Son Jesus Christ is a liar and a failure. Don't trust in him or believe him. Thats the message of Calvinism.

:carryon:

Brother Ducky
November 3rd, 2015, 08:36 AM
The only predestinated ones in Romans 8:30 are the ones that were predestinated to be conformed to the image of his Son.

The scripture does not say that they were predestinated to salvation.

Conformed to the image of his Son
Called.
Justified.
Glorified.

Nothing about predestinated to salvation.

OK, so you think at least some are predestined to be conformed to the image of the Son, and that consequently/subsequently those who are so predestined are then called, justified and glorified?

Are you going to argue that all those who are conformed, called, justified and glorified are not saved?

Robert Pate
November 3rd, 2015, 08:44 AM
OK, so you think at least some are predestined to be conformed to the image of the Son, and that consequently/subsequently those who are so predestined are then called, justified and glorified?

Are you going to argue that all those who are conformed, called, justified and glorified are not saved?

Of course they are saved, but they are not saved because they have been predestinated.

They are saved because they heard the Gospel and believed it, Ephesians 1:13.

Brother Ducky
November 3rd, 2015, 08:48 AM
Of course they are saved, but they are not saved because they have been predestinated.

They are saved because they heard the Gospel and believed it, Ephesians 1:13.

So are you arguing that there are some that are predestined to be conformed, called, justified and glorified that are not saved?

Robert Pate
November 3rd, 2015, 08:56 AM
So are you arguing that there are some that are predestined to be conformed, called, justified and glorified that are not saved?


It was God's plan from the foundation of the world that those who would believe on his Son Jesus Christ would be conformed to his image, Ephesians 1:13.

No one is conformed to the image of Christ that does not have the Holy Spirit. It is the work of the Spirit to conform one to the image of Christ.

We receive the Spirit by believing the Gospel, Ephesians 1:13.