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James Shepard
October 27th, 2015, 05:41 PM
I believe God created the universe imperfect on purpose. That we are supposed to build is kingdom here as best we can and build/fix the universe in the image he wants. Us striving to making the universe perfect will bring us closer to him as we will be using His language to guide us (science and math). We do this out of our love and respect to Him. Math and Science are his true word and the Bible is how we use the word to strive towards the above goal. And my idea is that no religion is more right than the other, and all are welcome to worship and discuss their interpretation of the blueprint. Not only that but He does not directly intervene. But unlike deists, I don't believe he does nothing but observe. I believe he gives us hints to better interpret and apply His blueprint.

The main tenets are:
1. That Math and Science are the true word of God
2. The Bible is to be used to teach us how to use His word and not take everything in it verbatim as it is written by many who tend to contradict each other.
3. God purposely made the universe imperfect so we can fix and build His Kingdom here as best we can to get closer with Him.
4. Jesus and His death is what gave us light of what we should be like to build/ fix the universe and only though Him can we achieve perfection.
5. We can never achieve the perfection we strive to, yet we still do so out of love and respect to the Lord knowing that only through Him we can achieve the perfection we strive towards.
6. No religion is more right than the other and we can interact with each other as long as it helps aid in the blueprint the Lord left to us.
7. God does not get directly involved but instead gives us hints to what we need to do.

Now I will be happy to discuss this with anyone as I believe in what I have just stated :)

Huckleberry
October 27th, 2015, 05:44 PM
I believe God created the universe imperfect on purpose. That we are supposed to build is kingdom here as best we can and build/fix the universe in the image he wants. Us striving to making the universe perfect will bring us closer to him as we will be using His language to guide us (science). And my idea is that no religion is more right than the other, and all are welcome to worship and discuss their interpretation of the blueprint. Not only that but He does not directly intervene. But unlike deists, I don't believe he does nothing but observe. I believe he gives us hints to better interpret and apply His blueprint.

Now I will be happy to discuss this with anyone as I believe in what I have just stated :)What if the bible pointedly disagrees with some of that?

James Shepard
October 27th, 2015, 05:49 PM
You cannot take the word of the Bible verbatim. I personally use it as a collection of lessons and moral stories that help you become a better person and thus in turn be working for the building of His kingdom :)

James Shepard
October 27th, 2015, 05:55 PM
And as a scientist, I do not believe science is wrong. Too me science is the direct word of God and not second-hand like the Bible. The only error in science is when we misinterpret it or do not know how to use it. Us coming to understand and it and learning to interpret it is what would be us striving toward perfection.

jamie
October 27th, 2015, 05:56 PM
You cannot take the word of the Bible verbatim. I personally use it as a collection of lessons and moral stories that help you become a better person and thus in turn be working for the building of His kingdom :)


Is the resurrection of Jesus Christ one of those moral stories?

OCTOBER23
October 27th, 2015, 05:59 PM
kingdom here as best we can

-don't have a Cow man:cow:
========================

WHERE HAVE I HEARD THAT BEFORE ?

OH YES, THE PAGAN ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH DOCTRINE:dog::dog::dog:(dog-triune )

SAYS THAT IT IS THE KINGDOM OF GOD ON EARTH .:king:.
================================

GIMMEE A BREAKKKKKKKKK !!!

Huckleberry
October 27th, 2015, 06:00 PM
You cannot take the word of the Bible verbatim. I personally use it as a collection of lessons and moral stories that help you become a better person and thus in turn be working for the building of His kingdom :)

Okay, so, if you're trying to set up a "new branch of Christianity", while discounting portions of scripture, then can I at least expect you have some personal revelation from God to lay claim to? A burning bush, maybe? Surely something of that sort.

James Shepard
October 27th, 2015, 06:01 PM
Of course not :) that is actually recorded and happened by the Romans. It is difficult to explain but I will give an example to try and help you understand what I mean.
The story of Adam and Eve did not happen (at least not as the Bibe describes it). The story of Adam and Eve in Genesis is...a metaphor or a symbol for how we as humans got detached from God.

Huckleberry
October 27th, 2015, 06:02 PM
And as a scientist, I do not believe science is wrong. Too me science is the direct word of God and not second-hand like the Bible. The only error in science is when we misinterpret it or do not know how to use it. Us coming to understand and it and learning to interpret it is what would be us striving toward perfection.
Science is always wrong. That's the whole point. Until we solve the universe nothing we now "know" can be considered sacrosanct. Rather, we expect everything we "know" to one day be proven false and a more perfect truth revealed.

Science is a method of seeking the truth. It is not the truth.

James Shepard
October 27th, 2015, 06:03 PM
And I never said discounting, I said some of them are not true or are impossible to be true. I believe in what the Bible teaches me, I just believe there are more symbols and allegories than we are led to believe.

Huckleberry
October 27th, 2015, 06:04 PM
Of course not :) that is actually recorded and happened by the Romans. It is difficult to explain but I will give an example to try and help you understand what I mean.
The story of Adam and Eve did not happen (at least not as the Bibe describes it). The story of Adam and Eve in Genesis is...a metaphor or a symbol for how we as humans got detached from God.Great. So we can't rely on scripture at all. Hence my asking for your personal revelation from God so your religion has something to give it validity. Absent that, your religion is meaningless.

James Shepard
October 27th, 2015, 06:04 PM
And a very good point you have there Huckleberry. That is why we strive to make it the truth, or find out it is false and start again.

Bright Raven
October 27th, 2015, 06:05 PM
You cannot take the word of the Bible verbatim. I personally use it as a collection of lessons and moral stories that help you become a better person and thus in turn be working for the building of His kingdom :)

The Bible is verbatim the Word of God, not just a collection of stories.

John 17:17 King James Version (KJV)

17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.

James Shepard
October 27th, 2015, 06:06 PM
No you miss the point and are jumping to conclusions. Think about it, I mean realy think about it, is the story of Adam and Eve even possible and then if it is, there is no way we could get past their lineage and as a species would die off quickly

Huckleberry
October 27th, 2015, 06:08 PM
And a very good point you have there Huckleberry. That is why we strive to make it the truth, or find out it is false and start again.
No.

1) A good scientist never accepts that he knows "the truth" about anything.
2) The bible is the word of God.

You're accepting the thing that is, by its nature, false, and denying the thing that is, by its nature, true.

Your religion is false.

James Shepard
October 27th, 2015, 06:08 PM
Very good point Raven, but the Bible was written by us Humans, who do, undoubtedly, make mistakes as we are not perfect. And with that passage, I believe that it means His teachings, not exactly the Bible itself but it does help as they have the documented teachings.

Angel4Truth
October 27th, 2015, 06:08 PM
You cannot take the word of the Bible verbatim.

Which is the basis of all false religions.

James Shepard
October 27th, 2015, 06:09 PM
Just fyi guys, sorry i am not quoting what I am replying, I cannot figure out how so sorry about that :/

James Shepard
October 27th, 2015, 06:13 PM
Not necessarily though Huckeberry. For all we know, it is true and not fallible. But On our goal to building His kingdom, we would discover it to be false, if it was and adjust accordingly, thus giving us a better understanding of the blueprint He laid out for us.

Huckleberry
October 27th, 2015, 06:14 PM
Think about it, I mean realy think about it, is the story of Adam and Eve even possible and then if it is, there is no way we could get past their lineage and as a species would die off quickly
It is true. And the reason Adam and Eve were able to populate the earth is because they were fresh creations, genetically perfect. If you take a look at the bible you're so busy shoving away from you, you'll see God forbidding incest a long, long time later. That is because, by then, humans had become genetically corrupt.

Guess what? Science has reached the point where it can explain why incest was allowed in the beginning and later disallowed. :up:

Huckleberry
October 27th, 2015, 06:14 PM
Not necessarily though Huckeberry. For all we know, it is true and not fallible. But On our goal to building His kingdom, we would discover it to be false, if it was and adjust accordingly, thus giving us a better understanding of the blueprint He laid out for us.
Show us some stuff that been proven false.

James Shepard
October 27th, 2015, 06:18 PM
Look up Freud a lot of his theories are wrong. look up John Dalton's atom model. Both were proven wrong. And I still believe Adam and Eve as a metaphor. As I am a Created Evolutionist. I believe God set all the dominoes up and knocked them down letting everything fall into place (for the most part).

Huckleberry
October 27th, 2015, 06:18 PM
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/11/58/1d/11581d0d7cb5b8badd3814b8640d2b15.jpg

Huckleberry
October 27th, 2015, 06:19 PM
Look up Freud a lot of his theories are wrong. look up John Dalton's atom model. Both were proven wrong.That's what science does, prove itself wrong.
And I still believe Adam and Eve as a metaphor. As I am a Created Evolutionist. I believe God set all the dominoes up and knocked them down letting everything fall into place (for the most part).A belief based on...?

James Shepard
October 27th, 2015, 06:23 PM
Science and laws of nature. Want me to prove some things the Bible was proven wrong on? The Earths age, the story of creation, the Dinosaurs, the world wide flood, the location of Jericoh, oh and Tyre never being rebuilt yet it is still around.

James Shepard
October 27th, 2015, 06:26 PM
then again though, everything else is difficult to disprove the Bible with just science alone, history is a much more adept field for doing so.

Huckleberry
October 27th, 2015, 06:27 PM
Science and laws of nature. Want me to prove some things the Bible was proven wrong on? The Earths age, the story of creation, the Dinosaurs, the world wide flood, the location of Jericoh, oh and Tyre never being rebuilt yet it is still around.
You're really hanging in there. I think you'll make a great addition to the forum. :e4e:

So, okay. Pick one and start a thread on it, to educate the fundies around here about scripture being proven false. I bet you a buck it'll be a popular thread, and make for a very entertaining and educational debate.

James Shepard
October 27th, 2015, 06:30 PM
I dont want to debate just for the sake of debating. That is not the point. People will very rarely change their opinions and/or beliefs through argument alone. My idea is just to have a better understanding of our place and a way to become closer to God. As I said, no religion is more right than the other in the eyes of my idea for a religious sect.

patrick jane
October 27th, 2015, 06:34 PM
Of course not :) that is actually recorded and happened by the Romans. It is difficult to explain but I will give an example to try and help you understand what I mean.
The story of Adam and Eve did not happen (at least not as the Bibe describes it). The story of Adam and Eve in Genesis is...a metaphor or a symbol for how we as humans got detached from God.

Well, I'm afraid your branch has absolutely nothing to do with the Bible, so you should stop mentioning God's Word, because you have no interest in it, and you will only distort it and blaspheme.

Grosnick Marowbe
October 27th, 2015, 06:34 PM
And as a scientist, I do not believe science is wrong. Too me science is the direct word of God and not second-hand like the Bible. The only error in science is when we misinterpret it or do not know how to use it. Us coming to understand and it and learning to interpret it is what would be us striving toward perfection.

Well, that makes you ignorant then.

James Shepard
October 27th, 2015, 06:36 PM
Oh and to get to your point Angel4truth. That is not exactly true. People have used the Bible, Torah, and Quran for very devious purposes from mainly interpreting the collections too literal.

James Shepard
October 27th, 2015, 06:39 PM
Gronsnick, the Bible is a second hand source of God's word. Told by God, written by Humans and not God Himself, that is the literal definition of a second-hand source. and for you Patrik Jane, I have no interest in distorting the word of the Bible, just because i have a different interpretation, does not make it Blasphemous.

Angel4Truth
October 27th, 2015, 06:41 PM
Oh and to get to your point Angel4truth. That is not exactly true. People have used the Bible, Torah, and Quran for very devious purposes from mainly interpreting the collections too literal.

And for creating new religious cults.

Do tell us though, what devious purpose came from taking the bible literally? Examples. Lets see what happened and why.

James Shepard
October 27th, 2015, 06:42 PM
Most Protestant sects were considered cults before finally being recognized. So still irrelevant.

Huckleberry
October 27th, 2015, 06:43 PM
I dont want to debate just for the sake of debating. That is not the point. People will very rarely change their opinions and/or beliefs through argument alone. My idea is just to have a better understanding of our place and a way to become closer to God. As I said, no religion is more right than the other in the eyes of my idea for a religious sect.Yeah, okay, but that brings up the point yet again that you're not responding to.

What special revelation can you cite that establishes your "christian branch" as a religion in the first place? So far, all you've done is dismiss anything that would lend your religion validity. You seem to be trying to say your religion is based on science, but still you offer nothing concrete.

You can call whatever this is a religion all you like, but if you can't cite something outside your own brain that lends it validity you can't expect anyone but lunatics to sign on.

James Shepard
October 27th, 2015, 06:47 PM
ah yeah sorry I will make it clear now. It is using the basis of Christianityand a lot of its teaching (i.e. Christ as the savior) and trying to figure out how to make it apply to the science, math, and laws we have discovered. And not using those to make people not believe, but to use them to show how those things are the true word of the Lord and using them to better make the universe as how he intends us to make it and become closer to him. Does that make a little sense? It is difficult for me to put to paper.

Desert Reign
October 27th, 2015, 06:48 PM
I believe God created the universe imperfect on purpose. That we are supposed to build is kingdom here as best we can and build/fix the universe in the image he wants. Us striving to making the universe perfect will bring us closer to him as we will be using His language to guide us (science). And my idea is that no religion is more right than the other, and all are welcome to worship and discuss their interpretation of the blueprint. Not only that but He does not directly intervene. But unlike deists, I don't believe he does nothing but observe. I believe he gives us hints to better interpret and apply His blueprint.

Now I will be happy to discuss this with anyone as I believe in what I have just stated :)

You keep mentioning perfection/imperfection. Almost like a fixation. What makes you think the world is imperfect? What makes you think the world isn't what it is supposed to be? What makes you think the world is supposed to be anything at all?

James Shepard
October 27th, 2015, 06:52 PM
Thank you Desert Reign, I have been waiting for that question :) look at everything. We have disease, defects, pulltion, non habital planets, Back holes, anti and dark matter. Why would the Lord leave those things in if not on purpose and for us to fix? You can argue "well because sin," but no, that is not exactly true. Why would sin have anything to do with the weather or with life and occurances outside of Earth?

Huckleberry
October 27th, 2015, 06:55 PM
ah yeah sorry I will make it clear now. It is using the basis of Christianityand a lot of its teaching (i.e. Christ as the savior) and trying to figure out how to make it apply to the science, math, and laws we have discovered.
Okay, cool.

And not using those to make people not believe, but to use them to show how those things are the true word of the Lord Well, discounting scriptural events as impossible out of incredulity isn't a very productive method.

and using them to better make the universe as how he intends us to make it and become closer to him. Does that make a little sense? It is difficult for me to put to paper.
To the point, where are you getting your knowledge of how God wants the universe to be, that we are to accomplish that and that it will bring us closer to Him? These are things you cannot expect converts to your religion to accept without evidence of some sort.

There are loonies on the street corners of major cities proclaiming the end of the world, but no one listens to them. Because they offer no evidence and simply proclaim it is so. That's the very least benchmark you'll have to surpass to be taken seriously.

James Shepard
October 27th, 2015, 06:59 PM
My evidence? Just look at all the imperfections on Earth alone. Disease, defects, weather. Look at how much they used to kill and destroy, but with the advancement of our society and science and math, we have been able to find cures, treatments, buffers and saved millions and are able to rebuild even after massive destruction (I.E. Katrina, Iwojima, Hiroshima, Germany, polio, the flu, the Black Death etc.)

George Affleck
October 27th, 2015, 07:01 PM
I dont want to debate just for the sake of debating.

How about debating for money? You send me 5 bucks and you get 3 debating tokens you can use with me anytime.

George Affleck
October 27th, 2015, 07:06 PM
Do tell us though, what devious purpose came from taking the bible literally? Examples. Lets see what happened and why.

I think he made a mistake and actually meant to say 'science' instead of 'Bible'.

James Shepard
October 27th, 2015, 07:09 PM
Devious things made in the name of the Bible? easy. The Inquisition, the Reconquista, The Crusades, vast corruption which lead to the Reformation, the whole of Westboro Baptist, etc. I can go on.

steko
October 27th, 2015, 07:12 PM
You cannot take the word of the Bible verbatim. I personally use it as a collection of lessons and moral stories that help you become a better person and thus in turn be working for the building of His kingdom :)

That branch already exists......nothing new.

Huckleberry
October 27th, 2015, 07:13 PM
My evidence? Just look at all the imperfections on Earth alone. Disease, defects, weather. Look at how much they used to kill and destroy, but with the advancement of our society and science and math, we have been able to find cures, treatments, buffers and saved millions and are able to rebuild even after massive destruction (I.E. Katrina, Iwojima, Hiroshima, Germany, polio, the flu, the Black Death etc.)Is this in response to me? Because none of that answers anything I've challenged you on.

I don't even want to respond to this, because I suspect you'll continue to ignore calls for evidence that your religion comes from God.

But, sigh, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt. Yes, science has given us many good things and improved on many things. That's all well and good. It's also given us many horrible, evil things. You cited Hiroshima right there among the things science allowed us to repair or improve upon. You also cited Germany, which I assume refers to Nazi Germany (?), which itself utilized scientific discoveries in horrific ways and killed millions. It's justified racism, sterilization of those deemed "feeble minded", allowed for previously unimaginable inhumane experimentation, the Tuskegee syphilis experiment, created extremely destructive drugs, made possible upwards of 50 million abortions so far in this nation alone, every NBC weapon of mass destruction, and on and on and on....

Your claim that science will make the world a better place is debatable, at best. The world will never be better until you improve the people in it. This is why calls for evidence to support your religion's validity are important. If it's not from God, then it's guaranteed to do more harm than good.

James Shepard
October 27th, 2015, 07:17 PM
This is very true Huckeberry but religion has also led to terrible things as well. Oh and I do not believe that just science alone will fix the world, but our love and understanding that can come from science will. Social science right now is doing a great job at helping with relations.

Huckleberry
October 27th, 2015, 07:22 PM
This is very true Huckeberry but religion has also led to terrible things as well. Oh and I do not believe that just science alone will fix the world, but our love and understanding that can come from science will. Social science right now is doing a great job at helping with relations.

So science is good and bad. And religion is good and bad.

Okay, let's see if we can get to the root of things. Do you believe there is a God? And that He is good? And that He can make us good?

Also, side note, I'm not aware of social science research having accomplished anything good at all. Maybe I just missed the "great job" it's been doing. :idunno:

James Shepard
October 27th, 2015, 07:25 PM
Eh its slow progress. And yes I believe there is a God, yes I believe He is good. Do I think He will make us good? No. He gave us free will. It is our job to make ourselves good for him and in his eyes.

Dialogos
October 27th, 2015, 07:25 PM
James,

Welcome to TOL.

It doesn't sound like your branch is all that Christian.

Christians believe that the word of God is true.

Angel4Truth
October 27th, 2015, 07:26 PM
Devious things made in the name of the Bible? easy. The Inquisition, the Reconquista, The Crusades, vast corruption which lead to the Reformation, the whole of Westboro Baptist, etc. I can go on.

Um no, you just moved the goalposts. What devious thing happened by what bible passage taken literally?

You need to be able to answer what you suggested. If you cant answer biblical questions, your ability to start your own religion based on it, wont go very far.

James Shepard
October 27th, 2015, 07:30 PM
I cannot quote Scripture like you can Angel4truth. But the eradication of all nonbelievers or something like that, I would have to look but you probably already know it. The whole slave trade was justified using the Bible, Westboro takes the Bible so literally they say God hates (insert group of people here). God does not hate anyone, He loves everyone, the only thing he hates is sin, not the sinner.

Angel4Truth
October 27th, 2015, 07:32 PM
I cannot quote Scripture like you can Angel4truth.

Then how do you know its not meant to be taken literally, or anything about it really?


But the eradication of all nonbelievers or something like that All non believers will be eradicated one day. We arent told to eradicate them though, God will. So you have no idea what you are talking about.


I would have to look but you probably already know it. The whole slave trade was justified using the Bible, Westboro takes the Bible so literally they say God hates (insert group of people here). God does not hate anyone, He loves everyone, the only thing he hates is sin, not the sinner.

You make these claims but admit you dont know what they are based on, why should i listen to you?

James Shepard
October 27th, 2015, 07:33 PM
And Dialogos, i Believe the word of God is true. I just believe the word of God is in math and science.

James Shepard
October 27th, 2015, 07:34 PM
The erradication part, Angel, may not be meant for us, but interpreting something too literal will lead to it.

Huckleberry
October 27th, 2015, 07:36 PM
Eh its slow progress. And yes I believe there is a God, yes I believe He is good.
Awesome!

Do I think He will make us good? No. He gave us free will. It is our job to make ourselves good for him and in his eyes.
Interestingly, this is the very question the bible itself concerns itself with. Whether we can make ourselves righteous or whether we must submit to God to be made righteous.

Christians believe we cannot be righteous on our own, no matter what set of rules or laws we impose upon ourselves. The bible provides mountains of evidence to establish this. Moreover, that is precisely what a religion is and why religion (or any other set or rule or laws) cannot make us good.

To be righteous we must be made righteous by God. There's no other way.

But, that's what Christianity says. So, that aside. On what do you base your claim that God expects us to make ourselves good?

James Shepard
October 27th, 2015, 07:38 PM
Yes but the idea I have helps us strive towards being good. It will not make us good but it will give us a better understanding of how to be good while still worshiping in His name and building.

Angel4Truth
October 27th, 2015, 07:39 PM
The erradication part, Angel, may not be meant for us, but interpreting something too literal will lead to it.

It literally says God does it, so unless someone is claiming they ARE God, then no, they arent taking that passage as literally being them.

You have no idea what you are talking about and cannot even present what you claim.

James Shepard
October 27th, 2015, 07:40 PM
And my claim? The fact he gave us free will. If He truly wanted to make us be good without discovering it ourselves, he would take that away and we would just be puppets. But by making the world in the ideal image He would want, we better understand Him and our place and come closer to Him

James Shepard
October 27th, 2015, 07:42 PM
Again, Angel, it can be interpreted as acting on the behalf of God (i.e. the Crusades and Inquisition)

Huckleberry
October 27th, 2015, 07:43 PM
Yes but the idea I have helps us strive towards being good. It will not make us good but it will give us a better understanding of how to be good while still worshiping in His name and building.

I'm really trying, but just not able to pin down exactly what your religion is and what it's based on. And you still refuse to claim and prove that your religion is from God.

If you can't support the claim that your religion is from God, then it's not even a religion. It's a philosophy, at best, that has something to do with valuing science or something. :idunno:

Angel4Truth
October 27th, 2015, 07:44 PM
Again, Angel, it can be interpreted as acting on the behalf of God (i.e. the Crusades and Inquisition)

No, it cant be interpreted that way, by any stretch of the imagination. You are describing people acting outside of scripture. (like you intend to do)

Got a different verse in mind?

Huckleberry
October 27th, 2015, 07:44 PM
And my claim? The fact he gave us free will. If He truly wanted to make us be good without discovering it ourselves, he would take that away and we would just be puppets. But by making the world in the ideal image He would want, we better understand Him and our place and come closer to Him

Could it be that He wants us to learn that we cannot be good without Him? That's what Christianity says.

James Shepard
October 27th, 2015, 07:49 PM
Well I do not know if it is from God. He works mysteriously. But I had this revelation when I was recovering from something that should have killed me. I feel I was saved for a purpose. And it feel this ideal in every fiber of my being. I feel it in my heart, i feel it in my mind. I feel and see it when I am at the lab.

Angel4Truth
October 27th, 2015, 07:50 PM
Well I do not know if it is from God. He works mysteriously. But I had this revelation when I was recovering from something that should have killed me. I feel I was saved for a purpose. And it feel this ideal in every fiber of my being. I feel it in my heart, i feel it in my mind. I feel and see it when I am at the lab.

If you actually had a revelation that came from God, you would know it.

James Shepard
October 27th, 2015, 07:55 PM
Hes not going to be doing a parade and spelling "subtlety" like this "SUBTLELY" It is up to us to interpret what He gave us. Thus going to my Hints idea.

Huckleberry
October 27th, 2015, 07:55 PM
Well I do not know if it is from God.
Well, that seems a rather important question, don't you think?

He works mysteriously. But I had this revelation when I was recovering from something that should have killed me. I feel I was saved for a purpose. And it feel this ideal in every fiber of my being. I feel it in my heart, i feel it in my mind. I feel and see it when I am at the lab.
What purpose?

*****

I'm glad that whatever unfortunate thing that happened to you has prompted you to seek God, but as a scientist don't you think it behooves you to more closely examine the most prevalent, well established, religious faith on the planet, rather than dismissing it out of hand? And to do so out of incredulity, certainly!

Let me suggest you not waste this opportunity to take a careful, measured look at Christianity and the scripture it derives from. Seems more than reasonable to me. :idunno:

James Shepard
October 27th, 2015, 07:56 PM
But Angel, I do truly believe it came from God. Its difficult to explain but, I just know it.

George Affleck
October 27th, 2015, 07:58 PM
Devious things made in the name of the Bible? easy. The Inquisition, the Reconquista, The Crusades, vast corruption which lead to the Reformation, the whole of Westboro Baptist, etc. I can go on.

If I were to do some terrible things and then claim that you were my inspiration for doing them, would this mean that you were in any way responsible?

None of these were done in the name of the Bible, except for Westboro; rather, the claim was made that they were doing right. They were done because people wanted to do them and then tried to take the Bible out of context for justification.

Less than half the lies people tell are true.

Angel4Truth
October 27th, 2015, 07:59 PM
But Angel, I do truly believe it came from God. Its difficult to explain but, I just know it.

But you just said you don't know if it was from God.


Well I do not know if it is from God.

James Shepard
October 27th, 2015, 08:02 PM
And I always had God in my heart. This accident happened when I was younger. I used to be almost like a fundamentalist, but I could not accept this happening to me. I cursed Him for letting this happen to me, I cried, I was scared I would never see any of my family or friends again. But then, before I made significant progress, I had.. ithink a dream, i could have been really out of it so I might have been awake. I saw a mighty beautiful skyscraper being built, I saw everyone working on it, trying to better themselves and be like the boss. On top of the skyscraper, I saw the cross. I knew then that we must strive to be like Him (to the best of our ability). When I started studying science, I saw that it can be done. That science is His true language and that we must use it as a tool.

Damn i feel really crazy saying that lol

Angel4Truth
October 27th, 2015, 08:06 PM
And I always had God in my heart. This accident happened when I was younger. I used to be almost like a fundamentalist, but I could not accept this happening to me. I cursed Him for letting this happen to me, I cried, I was scared I would never see any of my family or friends again. But then, before I made significant progress, I had.. ithink a dream, i could have been really out of it so I might have been awake. I saw a mighty beautiful skyscraper being built, I saw everyone working on it, trying to better themselves and be like the boss. On top of the skyscraper, I saw the cross. I knew then that we must strive to be like Him (to the best of our ability). When I started studying science, I saw that it can be done. That science is His true language and that we must use it as a tool.

Damn i feel really crazy saying that lol

What does this mean? " I used to be almost like a fundamentalist"

Huckleberry
October 27th, 2015, 08:09 PM
I knew then that we must strive to be like Him (to the best of our ability). When I started studying science, I saw that it can be done. That science is His true language and that we must use it as a tool.

Again, science is method of discovering the truth. It is not the truth. It can't be and still be science!

If you are truly a scientist, then you are a lover of the truth.

Here's the truth...

Matthew 7:13-14
13 “Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it. 14 Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it.

1 Peter 5:8
8 Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil walks about like a roaring lion, seeking whom he may devour.

2 Peter 3:9
9 The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.

Romans 6:23
23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

John 3:18
18 “He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Acts 4:12
12 Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.”

2 Timothy 3:16
16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness,

James Shepard
October 27th, 2015, 08:12 PM
I am very aware. But its still like trying to use the tools of math and science to be like Him. For what we know, they are true, but might be proven wrong. But i think you are more focused on theory and what we know now. I am saying science and math as a whole, things we have discovered and things we have yet to discover. That is a way we strive to be like him.

James Shepard
October 27th, 2015, 08:16 PM
And the thing is, you better understand God and your relationship to Him when you question, argue, reaffirm and look for ways of how to apply your Faith. I feel I have a very strong connection to Him, as I have done everything I can to build and fix things the way He would have wanted.

Huckleberry
October 27th, 2015, 08:17 PM
I am very aware. But its still like trying to use the tools of math and science to be like Him. For what we know, they are true, but might be proven wrong. But i think you are more focused on theory and what we know now. I am saying science and math as a whole, things we have discovered and things we have yet to discover. That is a way we strive to be like him.Isaiah 64:6
But we are all like an unclean thing, And all our righteousnesses are like filthy rags; We all fade as a leaf, And our iniquities, like the wind, Have taken us away.

Are you claiming the pursuit of science can overcome this truth? Because if not...if we cannot achieve a righteousness on equal with God Himself...we will always be less than He. And less than He is what sin is.

Unless we can achieve a righteous on equal with God's, we cannot be saved of ourselves. We need Him to make us righteous.

That is Christianity. Christianity appreciates science and recognizes its beauty, but it is not deluded to think it can save us.

James Shepard
October 27th, 2015, 08:20 PM
I know, but trying to be like Him will help us minutely see the world as he sees it, and thus be able to apply what we see to better others and the world.

Angel4Truth
October 27th, 2015, 08:20 PM
I know, but trying to be like Him will help us minutely see the world as he sees it, and thus be able to apply what we see to better others and the world.

Where would you rate knowing His word, on the scale of trying to be like Him?

James Shepard
October 27th, 2015, 08:21 PM
I know we need him to save us, but we cannot just expect Him to do everything for us. We have to strive to make the world and each other better

James Shepard
October 27th, 2015, 08:24 PM
Very small Angel, there are just things as Humans we will probably never know. Even though you can quote scripture, that does not mean you know His word even if you believe so. Applying what you believe is His word to make the world and others better, is knowing His word.

Angel4Truth
October 27th, 2015, 08:25 PM
Very small Angel, there are just things as Humans we will probably never know. Even though you can quote scripture, that does not mean you know His word even if you believe so. Applying what you believe is His word to make the world and others better, is knowing His word.

So you want to be like Him, yet rate His word, very small.

So, you dont believe the bible legit, is that it? Same premise that started Mormonism and JWs - is that why you want to start a new religion?

Huckleberry
October 27th, 2015, 08:27 PM
I know, but trying to be like Him will help us minutely see the world as he sees it, and thus be able to apply what we see to better others and the world.

Great. But it cannot make you good. Nothing you can do, even with all the truth and power that science can discover for you, even from now until our last days, can give you the ability to do anything that is as righteous as God. Science cannot make man us His equal.

All the "good" things you do are, compared to God's righteousness, practically nothing. If you love truth and desire to do good, then you need Jesus Christ.

Luke 12:20 But God said to him, ‘Fool! This night your soul will be required of you; then whose will those things be which you have provided?’

In other words, on your last day alive nothing you've accomplished will matter a wit to you. You will go to face judgment and nothing you have done, no matter how good or great, will acquit you.

James Shepard
October 27th, 2015, 08:29 PM
No I rate my knowledge of His word very small. The Bible helps us understand what we need to do to be able to fix and build the universe. Using his other words of math and science help us achieve that end.

James Shepard
October 27th, 2015, 08:31 PM
Of course not. We can never be equal with him, but by trying to do so, we see what we have to do to make the world and the universe the way He wants. We will never be his equal but trying to do so helps us understand His plan.

Angel4Truth
October 27th, 2015, 08:32 PM
No I rate my knowledge of His word very small.


The Bible helps us understand what we need to do to be able to fix and build the universe. Using his other words of math and science help us achieve that end.

If you really believe that, i would think it of utmost importance to know His word.

Wouldnt that be the best place to start, getting to know His word better?

James Shepard
October 27th, 2015, 08:34 PM
well Angel, we make new discoveries everyday. There is a saying, "the more you know, the less you know"

aikido7
October 27th, 2015, 08:34 PM
Is the resurrection of Jesus Christ one of those moral stories?What's the ultimate meaning of "resurrection"? Shouldn't THAT be the standard and not the various ways the tradition was expressed in the Bible and nowadays?

Huckleberry
October 27th, 2015, 08:35 PM
No I rate my knowledge of His word very small. The Bible helps us understand what we need to do to be able to fix and build the universe. Using his other words of math and science help us achieve that end.
Of course not. We can never be equal with him, but by trying to do so, we see what we have to do to make the world and the universe the way He wants. We will never be his equal but trying to do so helps us understand His plan.
If you really believe that, i would think it of utmost importance to know His word.

Wouldnt that be the best place to start, getting to know His word better?
Yup. :up:

aikido7
October 27th, 2015, 08:36 PM
If you really believe that, i would think it of utmost importance to know His word.

Wouldnt that be the best place to start, getting to know His word better?Which translation of his word? Which version of the Bible do we use to get to know "His word"?

And which book, verse or passage in the Bible do we use as the lens through which we interpret what we read?

James Shepard
October 27th, 2015, 08:37 PM
Read my above statement Huckleberry

Huckleberry
October 27th, 2015, 08:38 PM
Here's some good advice, I think, on where and how to start exploring the bible.

From gotquestions.org (a very nice resource for new Christians and anyone interested in the bible).

"...any first reading of the Bible should begin with the Gospels. The gospel of Mark is quick and fast-paced and is a good place to start. Then you might want to go on to the gospel of John, which focuses on the things Jesus claimed about Himself. Mark tells about what Jesus did, while John tells about what Jesus said and who Jesus was. In John are some of the simplest and clearest passages, but also some of the deepest and most profound passages. Reading the Gospels (Matthew, Mark, Luke, John) will familiarize you with Christ’s life and ministry.

After that, read through some of the Epistles (Romans, Ephesians, Philippians). They teach us how to live our lives in a way that is honoring to God. When you start reading the Old Testament, read the book of Genesis. It tells us how God created the world and how mankind fell into sin, as well as the impact that fall had on the world. Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy can be hard to read because they get into all the laws God required the Jews to live by. While you should not avoid these books, they are perhaps better left for later study. In any case, try not to get bogged down in them. Read Joshua through Chronicles to get a good history of Israel. Reading Psalms through Song of Solomon will give you a good feel for Hebrew poetry and wisdom. The prophetic books, Isaiah through Malachi, can be hard to understand as well. Remember, the key to understanding the Bible is asking God for wisdom (James 1:5). God is the author of the Bible, and He wants you to understand His Word."

Angel4Truth
October 27th, 2015, 08:39 PM
Read my above statement Huckleberry

yes, you want to be like Him, in your version of Him, outside of His word.

That about right?

James Shepard
October 27th, 2015, 08:40 PM
I have read the Gospels. I just cannot accept (with God being perfect), He would allow these bad things to remain in the Universe unless he did so on purpose. I will not accept it.

James Shepard
October 27th, 2015, 08:42 PM
But instead of that deterring me from Him, I found a way for me to be closer to Him.

Angel4Truth
October 27th, 2015, 08:45 PM
But instead of that deterring me from Him, I found a way for me to be closer to Him.

You dont believe His word, yet you believe you can be close to Him?

James Shepard
October 27th, 2015, 08:47 PM
No to me His word is math and science while the Bible is the way to convey or use the word.

steko
October 27th, 2015, 08:50 PM
I have read the Gospels. I just cannot accept (with God being perfect), He would allow these bad things to remain in the Universe unless he did so on purpose. I will not accept it.

You evidently don't believe that there was an actual space-time fall where the creation was brought into subjection to corruption by the sin of the first man, which explains sufficiently why the creation is in the mess it is at this present time.
GOD explains all of this in His Word and it is really the only satisfactory answer to evil and death in GOD's originally perfect creation.

The answer to man's problems: Believe GOD!.....what He says!

James Shepard
October 27th, 2015, 08:51 PM
No I cannot accept it. Why would our mistake transfer to the rest of the universe? We are very insignificant

Angel4Truth
October 27th, 2015, 08:51 PM
You evidently don't believe that there was an actual space-time fall where the creation was brought into subjection to corruption by the sin of the first man, which explains sufficiently why the creation is in the mess it is at this present time.
GOD explains all of this in His Word and it is really the only satisfactory answer to evil and death in GOD's originally perfect creation.

The answer to man's problems: Believe GOD!.....what He says!

:thumb: But they will keep looking for alternates.

Huckleberry
October 27th, 2015, 08:57 PM
Ecclesiastes 7:27-29
27 Here is what I have found,” says the Preacher,
“Adding one thing to the other to find out the reason,
28 Which my soul still seeks but I cannot find:
One man among a thousand I have found,
But a woman among all these I have not found.
29 Truly, this only I have found:
That God made man upright,
But they have sought out many schemes.”

steko
October 27th, 2015, 08:58 PM
No I cannot accept it. Why would our mistake transfer to the rest of the universe? We are very insignificant

That's where you're wrong, man is made in the image of GOD and thus is extremely significant. Man was given dominion over this planet and lost that dominion to an evil other. Christ came to restore all things.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Quote function:
All you have to do is click the 'quote' button at the bottom right in my post.
My post will come up in a box. Respond to it underneath and click 'Submit Reply'.

James Shepard
October 27th, 2015, 08:59 PM
That may be so, but when you look at where we are in the universe, or even the history of the earth, we are very insignificant.

steko
October 27th, 2015, 09:03 PM
That may be so, but when you look at where we are in the universe, or even the history of the earth, we are very insignificant.

Where we are in the universe is a very, very unique planet, created with purpose and uniquely suited to man's existence.

The evidence of the history of the earth bears out the revelation concerning the fall of paradise.

Huckleberry
October 27th, 2015, 09:04 PM
That may be so, but when you look at where we are in the universe, or even the history of the earth, we are very insignificant.
Are acorns insignificant in light of their size compared to everything around them? How much space we take up in the universe isn't a good measure of our significance. And if you believe in God, as you've claim, it shouldn't be hard for you to accept we are very significant to Him.

steko
October 27th, 2015, 09:05 PM
:thumb: But they will keep looking for alternates.

Yep!


1Co 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Tambora
October 27th, 2015, 09:07 PM
The story of Adam and Eve did not happen (at least not as the Bibe describes it). The story of Adam and Eve in Genesis is...a metaphor or a symbol for how we as humans got detached from God.

Luk_3:38 Which was the son of Enos, which was the son of Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the son of God.

Rom_5:14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

1Co_15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

1Ti_2:13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve.
1Ti_2:14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.

Jud_1:14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,

James Shepard
October 27th, 2015, 09:08 PM
It is true we are somewhat. But it is our job to spread him throughout the Universe when we can

steko
October 27th, 2015, 09:11 PM
It is true we are somewhat. But it is our job to spread him throughout the Universe when we can

Oh, come on Mr. Scientist try it one time:

Quote function:
All you have to do is click the 'quote' button at the bottom right in my post.
My post will come up in a box. Respond to it underneath and click 'Submit Reply'.

James Shepard
October 27th, 2015, 09:14 PM
Oh, come on Mr. Scientist try it one time:

Quote function:
All you have to do is click the 'quote' button at the bottom right in my post.
My post will come up in a box. Respond to it underneath and click 'Submit Reply'.

Lol ok I got it lol sorry

steko
October 27th, 2015, 09:15 PM
Lol ok I got it lol sorry

Congratulations!

One positive rep for you!

James Shepard
October 27th, 2015, 09:27 PM
Feel free to discuss this people. With not just me but also among yourselfs. It is interesting topic and I want to see what others have to say in the matter

James Shepard
October 27th, 2015, 09:29 PM
Or I should say, what others opinions are on how to improve it.

steko
October 27th, 2015, 09:39 PM
Feel free to discuss this people. With not just me but also among yourselfs. It is interesting topic and I want to see what others have to say in the matter

My would be response.


Or I should say, what others opinions are on how to improve it.

My would be response.

I clicked that little button to the right of the 'Quote' button on Post #110 and then I clicked the 'Quote' button on Post #111 and the result is what you see in this post plus my [would be response]. This way you can collect different posts together to respond to them.

I'm tired and probably checking out for the night.
Maybe catch up later.
Nice talking with you, James!

James Shepard
October 27th, 2015, 09:40 PM
My would be response.



My would be response.

I clicked that little button to the right of the 'Quote' button on Post #110 and then I clicked the 'Quote' button on Post #111 and the result is what you see in this post plus my [would be response]. This way you can collect different posts together to respond to them.

I'm tired and probably checking out for the night.
Maybe catch up later.
Nice talking with you, James!

Good night man :)

aikido7
October 27th, 2015, 11:54 PM
The Bible is verbatim the Word of God, not just a collection of stories.

John 17:17 King James Version (KJV)

17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.How do you use the word "verbatim" according to the many different biblical translations and versions that bookstores carry?

There has always been God, and there have always been a multitude of interpretations of him made by men.

James Shepard
October 28th, 2015, 08:40 AM
How do you use the word "verbatim" according to the many different biblical translations and versions that bookstores carry?

There has always been God, and there have always been a multitude of interpretations of him made by men.

Thank you for bringing that up :)

Jamie Gigliotti
October 28th, 2015, 09:30 AM
I believe God created the universe imperfect on purpose. That we are supposed to build is kingdom here as best we can and build/fix the universe in the image he wants. Us striving to making the universe perfect will bring us closer to him as we will be using His language to guide us (science and math). We do this out of our love and respect to Him. Math and Science are his true word and the Bible is how we use the word to strive towards the above goal. And my idea is that no religion is more right than the other, and all are welcome to worship and discuss their interpretation of the blueprint. Not only that but He does not directly intervene. But unlike deists, I don't believe he does nothing but observe. I believe he gives us hints to better interpret and apply His blueprint.

Now I will be happy to discuss this with anyone as I believe in what I have just stated :)

I find it reasonable that God knew Adam and Eve would sin, thus creating the separation from Him that allows for free, true and pure love to be made in our reunion and union with Him through His Spirit.

Math and Science point us to truths about Him, but can not explain Him completely. There is no evidence beyond the beginning, or big bang. Physicists have their hunches about other dimensions of reality, where God could sit upon His throne right now, but it is conjecture and we won't know the truth of that while we are here.

Science has it's limits as does math in understanding truth. Jesus came to reveal the truth as it is found in Him. He is "the way, the truth and the life". If you seek truth, seek Him, His presence, His love, His joy, His peace will give you all you need. There is more than meets the eye.

aikido7
October 28th, 2015, 10:52 AM
Thank you for bringing that up :)
My pointed questions fail to even register for most people on TOL.
And if they do, they are too often met by childish reactivity like taunts and name-calling.

I enjoy a good discussion and actually look forward to those times when my comfortable beliefs and thoughts get the rug pulled out from underneath them.

James Shepard
October 28th, 2015, 01:48 PM
My pointed questions fail to even register for most people on TOL.
And if they do, they are too often met by childish reactivity like taunts and name-calling.

I enjoy a good discussion and actually look forward to those times when my comfortable beliefs and thoughts get the rug pulled out from underneath them.

Well good to see you here with me. Maybe you would like to follow my idea? :)

James Shepard
October 28th, 2015, 01:51 PM
I find it reasonable that God knew Adam and Eve would sin, thus creating the separation from Him that allows for free, true and pure love to be made in our reunion and union with Him through His Spirit.

Math and Science point us to truths about Him, but can not explain Him completely. There is no evidence beyond the beginning, or big bang. Physicists have their hunches about other dimensions of reality, where God could sit upon His throne right now, but it is conjecture and we won't know the truth of that while we are here.

Science has it's limits as does math in understanding truth. Jesus came to reveal the truth as it is found in Him. He is "the way, the truth and the life". If you seek truth, seek Him, His presence, His love, His joy, His peace will give you all you need. There is more than meets the eye.

Seeking Him is what lead me to this revelation. With the TRUE word of God as Math and Science with the Bible being the instructions for using His word, no one is able to debate it as it is fact and Atheists might even fall into my idea as a few have already :)

Wick Stick
October 28th, 2015, 02:53 PM
The story of Adam and Eve in Genesis is...a metaphor or a symbol for how we as humans got detached from God.
My 200 hours of study in ancient near eastern literature says its a history of the beginning of the Israelite nation, but written in the form of an apocryphon.

It has some merit as an allegory, though, too. That's a legal use of ANE literature. It's just not the original intent.

Jarrod

Wick Stick
October 28th, 2015, 02:55 PM
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/9f/96/b7/9f96b732f9756a9011e31b2011f417d7.jpg

James Shepard
October 28th, 2015, 03:05 PM
My 200 hours of study in ancient near eastern literature says its a history of the beginning of the Israelite nation, but written in the form of an apocryphon.

It has some merit as an allegory, though, too. That's a legal use of ANE literature. It's just not the original intent.

Jarrod

It may or may not be the original intent. The problem is that we just truly do not know as it was written so long ago and written by at least 4 different sources which like to contradict each other. So I use it as more as an allegory.

Grosnick Marowbe
October 28th, 2015, 03:14 PM
Seeking Him is what lead me to this revelation. With the TRUE word of God as Math and Science with the Bible being the instructions for using His word, no one is able to debate it as it is fact and Atheists might even fall into my idea as a few have already :)

What church or denomination have you been affiliated with?

James Shepard
October 28th, 2015, 03:18 PM
What church or denomination have you been affiliated with?

Before I thought on my own, I was Methodist.

Grosnick Marowbe
October 28th, 2015, 03:18 PM
Do you consider yourself to be a "Child of God?" In the Spiritual sense that is?

James Shepard
October 28th, 2015, 03:22 PM
Do you consider yourself to be a "Child of God?" In the Spiritual sense that is?

Arent we all? Whether by direct creation or planned evolution, we are all His children.

Grosnick Marowbe
October 28th, 2015, 03:23 PM
Arent we all? Whether by direct creation or planned evolution, we are all His children.

Are you a member of the Body of Christ?

James Shepard
October 28th, 2015, 03:25 PM
Are you a member of the Body of Christ?

I am not sure I understand your question. We were made separate for a reason.

Grosnick Marowbe
October 28th, 2015, 03:25 PM
Do you believe in the Bible, God, Heaven, judgment, and Lake of Fire?

James Shepard
October 28th, 2015, 03:28 PM
Do you believe in the Bible, God, Heaven, judgment, and Lake of Fire?

First 4 yes, last one I have a different interpretation.

Grosnick Marowbe
October 28th, 2015, 03:28 PM
I am not sure I understand your question. We were made separate for a reason.

What I mean is, was there ever a time in your life when you
heard the message about God's Grace towards mankind, and
subsequently, placed your faith in Jesus Christ as your Savior?

James Shepard
October 28th, 2015, 03:28 PM
And the Bible, somewhat

Grosnick Marowbe
October 28th, 2015, 03:29 PM
First 4 yes, last one I have a different interpretation.

Some, call it Hell.

Grosnick Marowbe
October 28th, 2015, 03:30 PM
And the Bible, somewhat

So, some of the Bible you reject?

James Shepard
October 28th, 2015, 03:30 PM
Some, call it Hell.

I am well aware. I just have a different interpretation of what Hell actually is.

James Shepard
October 28th, 2015, 03:31 PM
So, some of the Bible you reject?

not reject, just not take as verbatim.

Grosnick Marowbe
October 28th, 2015, 03:31 PM
Are you going to Heaven once you leave this mortal coil?

James Shepard
October 28th, 2015, 03:32 PM
Are you going to Heaven once you leave this mortal coil?

It is not my decision to make. I feel I am close with God, but do i know if I am going to Heaven? No.

Grosnick Marowbe
October 28th, 2015, 03:32 PM
I am well aware. I just have a different interpretation of what Hell actually is.

What is it for you?

Grosnick Marowbe
October 28th, 2015, 03:33 PM
It is not my decision to make. I feel I am close with God, but do i know if I am going to Heaven? No.

Thanks for answering.

James Shepard
October 28th, 2015, 03:34 PM
What is it for you?

Something very difficult for me to actually put to paper

Grosnick Marowbe
October 28th, 2015, 03:36 PM
Have you ever heard the Gospel of God's Grace towards mankind?

glorydaz
October 28th, 2015, 03:37 PM
I dont want to debate just for the sake of debating. That is not the point. People will very rarely change their opinions and/or beliefs through argument alone. My idea is just to have a better understanding of our place and a way to become closer to God. As I said, no religion is more right than the other in the eyes of my idea for a religious sect.

So you're asking people to take what you claim by faith?

James Shepard
October 28th, 2015, 03:37 PM
Have you ever heard the Gospel of God's Grace towards mankind?

Of course. That is a key thing

James Shepard
October 28th, 2015, 03:39 PM
So you're asking people to take what you claim by faith?

I am not. I trying to get people to think and help me build my ideal version of what religion should be.

Grosnick Marowbe
October 28th, 2015, 03:39 PM
Of course. That is a key thing

What's your understanding of that Gospel?

James Shepard
October 28th, 2015, 03:40 PM
What's your understanding of that Gospel?

I do not know how to say.

Grosnick Marowbe
October 28th, 2015, 03:42 PM
I do not know how to say.

Tell me about this "sect" you wish to build?

James Shepard
October 28th, 2015, 03:42 PM
Tell me about this "sect" you wish to build?

I have. Its the main topic of the thread. It is the very first thing I posted.

Grosnick Marowbe
October 28th, 2015, 03:43 PM
I have. Its the main topic of the thread. It is the very first thing I posted.

Could you break it down a little? Simplify it?

James Shepard
October 28th, 2015, 03:44 PM
Could you break it down a little? Simplify it?

You will need to be specific. What exactly do you want to know?

Grosnick Marowbe
October 28th, 2015, 03:46 PM
You will need to be specific. What exactly do you want to know?

Just try and convince me that your beliefs are worthy of consideration?

Grosnick Marowbe
October 28th, 2015, 03:47 PM
A sample:

I believe thus and so:

1)

2)

3)

Grosnick Marowbe
October 28th, 2015, 03:49 PM
If you're considering starting a new religion you have
to know how to sell it.

Grosnick Marowbe
October 28th, 2015, 03:56 PM
Thanks anyway.

glorydaz
October 28th, 2015, 04:11 PM
I am not. I trying to get people to think and help me build my ideal version of what religion should be.

So what is it you don't like about the version that exists now? Or are there just too many to choose from, so you want to come up with another one (your ideal)? You must realize there is but one TRUTH, don't you? Truth is not something you can actually "build", it just is.

James Shepard
October 28th, 2015, 04:15 PM
Thanks anyway.

Sorry I went to get some dinner

James Shepard
October 28th, 2015, 04:21 PM
Thanks anyway.

I believe

1. That Math and Science are the true word of God
2. The Bible is to be used to teach us how to use His word and not take everything in it verbatim
3. God purposely made the universe imperfect so we can fix and build His Kingdom here as best we can to get closer with Him.
4. Jesus and His death is what gave us light of what we should be like to build/ fix the universe.
5. We can never achieve the perfection we strive to, yet we still do so out of love and respect to the Lord knowing that only through Him we can achieve the perfection we strive towards.
6. No religion is more right than the other and we can interact with each other as long as it helps aid in the blueprint the Lord left to us.
7. God does not get directly involved but instead gives us hints to what we need to do.

Got the gist?

James Shepard
October 28th, 2015, 04:25 PM
So what is it you don't like about the version that exists now? Or are there just too many to choose from, so you want to come up with another one (your ideal)? You must realize there is but one TRUTH, don't you? Truth is not something you can actually "build", it just is.

There are too many reasons. And I am aware there is one Truth. But every religion and sect has its place and each one aids in the blueprint the Lord left us.

Wick Stick
October 28th, 2015, 04:41 PM
It may or may not be the original intent. The problem is that we just truly do not know as it was written so long ago and written by at least 4 different sources which like to contradict each other. So I use it as more as an allegory.
The story of Adam and Eve? Just one author, and a little bit of redaction. We weren't talking about the whole of the Pentateuch.

Although, the story of Abram and Sarah is roughly the same story...

Jarrod

Grosnick Marowbe
October 28th, 2015, 05:43 PM
Sorry I went to get some dinner

I hear Crow is in season.

Grosnick Marowbe
October 28th, 2015, 06:20 PM
There are too many reasons. And I am aware there is one Truth. But every religion and sect has its place and each one aids in the blueprint the Lord left us.

God has provided us with only one book. The Bible.

steko
October 28th, 2015, 06:28 PM
Do you consider yourself to be a "Child of God?" In the Spiritual sense that is?


Arent we all? Whether by direct creation or planned evolution, we are all His children.

It's plain that we are not all 'children/sons' of GOD by birth, for we become 'sons of GOD' when we receive Him and trust in Him.

We are all the creation of GOD and fellow creatures but we are not all the sons of GOD and brethren unless we come to GOD on His terms.

True Christianity is exclusive.



Joh 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

Grosnick Marowbe
October 28th, 2015, 06:42 PM
I believe

1. That Math and Science are the true word of God
2. The Bible is to be used to teach us how to use His word and not take everything in it verbatim
3. God purposely made the universe imperfect so we can fix and build His Kingdom here as best we can to get closer with Him.
4. Jesus and His death is what gave us light of what we should be like to build/ fix the universe.
5. We can never achieve the perfection we strive to, yet we still do so out of love and respect to the Lord knowing that only through Him we can achieve the perfection we strive towards.
6. No religion is more right than the other and we can interact with each other as long as it helps aid in the blueprint the Lord left to us.
7. God does not get directly involved but instead gives us hints to what we need to do.

Got the gist?

Well, I can see by your writings that you're not a member of the
Body of Christ. Therefore, you're not a "True Believer" at this time.

Grosnick Marowbe
October 28th, 2015, 06:43 PM
Why do you use the word Verbatim so much?

Grosnick Marowbe
October 28th, 2015, 06:55 PM
Here's some verses to think about:
Ephesians 2:8-9 "For by grace are ye
saved through faith; and that not of
yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Not of works, lest any man should boast."

Romans 10:9 "That if thou shalt confess with
thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in
thine heart that God hath raised him from the
dead, thou shalt be saved."

It's necessary for one to, hear the Grace message,
place all their faith in Christ as their Savior, be
sealed, indwelt, and baptized (not by water) into
the Body of Christ by the Holy Spirit. Once one
has placed their faith in Christ, they receive the
righteousness of Christ, forgiveness of all sin and
the guarantee of eternal life.

1 Corinthians 12:13 "For by one Spirit are we all
baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or
Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have
been all made to drink into one Spirit."

glorydaz
October 28th, 2015, 06:55 PM
There are too many reasons. And I am aware there is one Truth. But every religion and sect has its place and each one aids in the blueprint the Lord left us.

And you really think you are capable of sorting through those "aids" in order to read the "blueprint" the Lord left us to build the house? The fact that you have no one set of blueprints is why you're destined to fail. In fact, so that we each don't have to do what you are attempting to do is why the Lord made sure we have the Bible. The Bible IS the blueprint. He has kept it intact....all of it given by inspiration from God Himself. Anything you add to or subtract from it will only be a product of your own vain imagining.

Grosnick Marowbe
October 28th, 2015, 06:56 PM
Christ was sent to die for the sins of all mankind. However,
only those who place their faith in Christ as their Savior will
benefit from His death and resurrection.

James Shepard
October 28th, 2015, 06:57 PM
Well, I can see by your writings that you're not a member of the
Body of Christ. Therefore, you're not a "True Believer" at this time.

That is not for you to say. And also unfair of you to do so. Just because I have a different ideology, does not mean I do not believe. Christ is the only way we can ever achieve the perfection that we strive to. I also believe all religions have their own interpretations of what the Lord is and have come about their own means of doing so. Buddhism, Hinduism, Shinto, Any branch of Christianity, Mormons, Freemasons, Islam, and Judaism. Christianity, Judaism, and Islam found the Lord starting from Abraham. Buddhists found the Lord through Buddha. Etc. None of them are wrong.

Grosnick Marowbe
October 28th, 2015, 06:58 PM
And you really think you are capable of sorting through those "aids" in order to read the "blueprint" the Lord left us to build the house? The fact that you have no one set of blueprints is why you're destined to fail. In fact, so that we each don't have to do what you are attempting to do is why the Lord made sure we have the Bible. The Bible IS the blueprint. He has kept it intact....all of it given by inspiration from God Himself. Anything you add to or subtract from it will only be a product of your own vain imagining.

Good post

Grosnick Marowbe
October 28th, 2015, 06:59 PM
That is not for you to say. And also unfair of you to do so. Just because I have a different ideology, does not mean I do not believe. Christ is the only way we can ever achieve the perfection that we strive to. I also believe all religions have their own interpretations of what the Lord is and have come about their own means of doing so. Buddhism, Hinduism, Shinto, Any branch of Christianity, Mormons, Freemasons, Islam, and Judaism. Christianity, Judaism, and Islam found the Lord starting from Abraham. Buddhists found the Lord through Buddha. Etc. None of them are wrong.

How about Satanism?

James Shepard
October 28th, 2015, 06:59 PM
God has provided us with only one book. The Bible.

The Lord has given us many books. The Lord works in mysterious ways and can come to others in any form He chooses to do so in. It explains why we have so many religions.

glorydaz
October 28th, 2015, 07:00 PM
That is not for you to say. And also unfair of you to do so. Just because I have a different ideology, does not mean I do not believe. Christ is the only way we can ever achieve the perfection that we strive to. I also believe all religions have their own interpretations of what the Lord is and have come about their own means of doing so. Buddhism, Hinduism, Shinto, Any branch of Christianity, Mormons, Freemasons, Islam, and Judaism. Christianity, Judaism, and Islam found the Lord starting from Abraham. Buddhists found the Lord through Buddha. Etc. None of them are wrong.

That's Humanism, and it most certainly is wrong. There is only one God and man is not the ONE. Strive all you want, you will never come close to the glory of God.

James Shepard
October 28th, 2015, 07:00 PM
How about Satanism?

I did not consider it as it is technically a cultist form of the Abrahamic faiths.

Grosnick Marowbe
October 28th, 2015, 07:01 PM
You're lost in your sins my friend. If you would die right
now, you'll be headed for God's judgement and the Lake
of Fire for eternity.

Grosnick Marowbe
October 28th, 2015, 07:01 PM
I did not consider it as it is technically a cultist form of the Abrahamic faiths.

Explain further?

steko
October 28th, 2015, 07:03 PM
The Lord has given us many books. The Lord works in mysterious ways and can come to others in any form He chooses to do so in. It explains why we have so many religions.

Man has given us many books. The Lord gave us one.
When one compares the books of man with the book which the Lord gave, one will find that they oppose one another.

Truth is not contradictory.

Grosnick Marowbe
October 28th, 2015, 07:03 PM
The Lord has given us many books. The Lord works in mysterious ways and can come to others in any form He chooses to do so in. It explains why we have so many religions.

There are copious amounts of false religions. However, only one true
one.

James Shepard
October 28th, 2015, 07:04 PM
That's Humanism, and it most certainly is wrong. There is only one God and man is not the ONE. Strive all you want, you will never come close to the glory of God.

I am aware, thats why I called my idea Strivonism. We strive to be the perfection Jesus embodied and the Lord wants. We know it is futile, yet we still try as we love and respect God. But Even though we strive to it, we accept that only though Jesus we will reach that perfection. Again this is very hard for me to adequately put to paper

James Shepard
October 28th, 2015, 07:05 PM
You're lost in your sins my friend. If you would die right
now, you'll be headed for God's judgement and the Lake
of Fire for eternity.

Really? So you know what God plans for me? You know where I am going? Since you know what God thinks, tell me can you cure cancer on a whim?

steko
October 28th, 2015, 07:06 PM
I am aware, thats why I called my idea Strivonism. We strive to be the perfection Jesus embodied and the Lord wants. We know it is futile, yet we still try as we love and respect God. But Even though we strive to it, we accept that only though Jesus we will reach that perfection. Again this is very hard for me to adequately put to paper

That which was 'God-breathed' was easily put to paper, and.....it's available to those who humble themselves to believe it.

James Shepard
October 28th, 2015, 07:06 PM
Man has given us many books. The Lord gave us one.
When one compares the books of man with the book which the Lord gave, one will find that they oppose one another.

Truth is not contradictory.

Each one believes it to be true. Maybe the Lord did it on purpose. To test us on whether we can cooperate and accomplish great things even when we different on such powerful subjects.

James Shepard
October 28th, 2015, 07:08 PM
That which was 'God-breathed' was easily put to paper, and.....it's available to those who humble themselves to believe it.

Are you not paying attention? When I say "through Jesus" I mean that Jesus is the key to perfection we strive to. A perfection we will only reach when we accept Him and die and move on.

steko
October 28th, 2015, 07:08 PM
Each one believes it to be true. Maybe the Lord did it on purpose. To test us on whether we can cooperate and accomplish great things even when we different on such powerful subjects.

There are always two opposing voices speaking to our ears.
It's up to us to choose which one to believe.

Grosnick Marowbe
October 28th, 2015, 07:09 PM
I am aware, thats why I called my idea Strivonism. We strive to be the perfection Jesus embodied and the Lord wants. We know it is futile, yet we still try as we love and respect God. But Even though we strive to it, we accept that only though Jesus we will reach that perfection. Again this is very hard for me to adequately put to paper

Perhaps, until you learn to articulate your new religion you best,
just listen instead of speak? Ask questions? Stop preaching eclectic
false religions of the world. One day you'll have to choose only one.
Make sure it's the right one.

James Shepard
October 28th, 2015, 07:11 PM
Explain further?

I should say perversion. not cultist. It is difficult to explain as i am not completely sure on what satanists believe as I have had many conflicting data from satanists themselves. I am not even sure they know.

Grosnick Marowbe
October 28th, 2015, 07:11 PM
Are you not paying attention? When I say "through Jesus" I mean that Jesus is the key to perfection we strive to. A perfection we will only reach when we accept Him and die and move on.

You're living in a "Maybe, if, perhaps" kind of mindset at this point.

Grosnick Marowbe
October 28th, 2015, 07:12 PM
I should say perversion. not cultist. It is difficult to explain as i am not completely sure on what satanists believe as I have had many conflicting data from satanists themselves. I am not even sure they know.

Best to stay away from those types.

James Shepard
October 28th, 2015, 07:13 PM
There are always two opposing voices speaking to our ears.
It's up to us to choose which one to believe.

Just because I give credence to other religions, that does not mean I fall into temptation or idolatry or what-not. Every religion does things that try to better humanity and those who follow it.

Grosnick Marowbe
October 28th, 2015, 07:13 PM
Are you not paying attention? When I say "through Jesus" I mean that Jesus is the key to perfection we strive to. A perfection we will only reach when we accept Him and die and move on.

Move on to where?

Grosnick Marowbe
October 28th, 2015, 07:14 PM
Just because I give credence to other religions, that does not mean I fall into temptation or idolatry or what-not. Every religion does things that try to better humanity and those who follow it.

You're very naive. How old are you?

James Shepard
October 28th, 2015, 07:15 PM
You're living in a "Maybe, if, perhaps" kind of mindset at this point.

Isnt that every religion? We use Faith to justify those things. Others fall from religion due to losing their faith. But me being in a lab can see the complexities of life up close and literally see that there is a Supreme Being. Whether it is our definition of the Lord or another's. I believe our definition of the Supreme Being (God) most accurately captures it.

James Shepard
October 28th, 2015, 07:17 PM
You're very naive. How old are you?

Why am I naive? Because I do not blindly hate those who have a different interpretation of religion?

Grosnick Marowbe
October 28th, 2015, 07:17 PM
Isnt that every religion? We use Faith to justify those things. Others fall from religion due to losing their faith. But me being in a lab can see the complexities of life up close and literally see that there is a Supreme Being. Whether it is our definition of the Lord or another's. I believe our definition of the Supreme Being (God) most accurately captures it.

Why are you on TOL?

James Shepard
October 28th, 2015, 07:19 PM
Why are you on TOL?

To try and have deep theological discussions :)

Angel4Truth
October 28th, 2015, 07:19 PM
There are always two opposing voices speaking to our ears.
It's up to us to choose which one to believe.

Amen - and the word of God helps us respond.

steko
October 28th, 2015, 07:20 PM
Just because I give credence to other religions, that does not mean I fall into temptation or idolatry or what-not. Every religion does things that try to better humanity and those who follow it.

I've wholeheartedly and sincerely lived other religions and was in a darkness which I thought was light, until I came to the true light.....the Lord Jesus Christ by trust in His finished work on the cross in paying the penalty for all my sins against the true God, the creator of the heavens and the earth.

James Shepard
October 28th, 2015, 07:24 PM
Move on to where?

Move on to the perfection we strive to. (Heaven)

steko
October 28th, 2015, 07:26 PM
Just because I give credence to other religions, that does not mean I fall into temptation or idolatry or what-not. Every religion does things that try to better humanity and those who follow it.

When you say 'credence', I take it to mean that you believe that all religions are ultimately true to what exists.
How can systems of thought which teach contradictory ideas about reality all be true. Truth is not contradictory.

James Shepard
October 28th, 2015, 07:27 PM
I've wholeheartedly and sincerely lived other religions and was in a darkness which I thought was light, until I came to the true light.....the Lord Jesus Christ by trust in His finished work on the cross in paying the penalty for all my sins against the true God, the creator of the heavens and the earth.

That may be your experience but you must remember others will convert from Christianity as well as to it. Every religion tries to do something good in the name of their version of the Lord. (I.E. Brahma, Allah, OT God, i cannot actually spell it, Buddha (although buddha is not their god), and etc.

James Shepard
October 28th, 2015, 07:30 PM
When you say 'credence', I take it to mean that you believe that all religions are ultimately true to what exists.
How can systems of thought which teach contradictory ideas about reality all be true. Truth is not contradictory.

When i say give credence, I mean i recognize what they believe and what they do. I do not instinctively just say "oh you are Buddhist? WROOOONG!" I listen to them. I try to hear their side. Do you have a small idea of what I mean?

steko
October 28th, 2015, 07:34 PM
That may be your experience but you must remember others will convert from Christianity as well as to it. Every religion tries to do something good in the name of their version of the Lord. (I.E. Brahma, Allah, OT God, i cannot actually spell it, Buddha (although buddha is not their god), and etc.

Yeah well, I visited that smorgasborg in the 60's and 70's and found it to be empty, deceptive and delusional.

True Christianity is exclusive, but available to everyone who chooses to enter.

James Shepard
October 28th, 2015, 07:37 PM
Yeah well, I visited that smorgasborg in the 60's and 70's and found it to be empty, deceptive and delusional.

True Christianity is exclusive, but available to everyone who chooses to enter.

Are you referring to Meccah? Or Jerusalem?

steko
October 28th, 2015, 07:48 PM
When i say give credence, I mean i recognize what they believe and what they do. I do not instinctively just say "oh you are Buddhist? WROOOONG!" I listen to them. I try to hear their side. Do you have a small idea of what I mean?

I see all people as related to me, in that all are created in the image of God and have great value and derive their dignity from that source. I was raised in a pantheistic environment and lived a pantheistic world view for years, when I practiced Zen Buddhism, bits of Hinduism, Taoism and Sufism.
I have dialogued over the years with people of nearly every religious persuasion, from Yogis to Israeli Keneset members, and respected their right to hold their worldview and express it freely. I do not blindly accept all views of reality as true, however, and will kindly tell them so. Truth is not contradictory. Dialogue is healthy for arriving at truth.

steko
October 28th, 2015, 07:50 PM
Are you referring to Meccah? Or Jerusalem?

You'd have to elabortate on that question for me to understand it.

James Shepard
October 28th, 2015, 07:55 PM
I see all people as related to me, in that all are created in the image of God and have great value and derive their dignity from that source. I was raised in a pantheistic environment and lived a pantheistic world view for years, when I practiced Zen Buddhism, bits of Hinduism, Taoism and Sufism.
I have dialogued over the years with people of nearly every religious persuasion, from Yogis to Israeli Keneset members, and respected their right to hold their worldview and express it freely. I do not blindly accept all views of reality as true, however, and will kindly tell them so. Truth is not contradictory. Dialogue is healthy for arriving at truth.

Very good point, but truth will be defined differently from others points of views. Kind of like...How People of the South consider Sherman a war criminal, while the people of the North do not.

Jamie Gigliotti
October 28th, 2015, 08:49 PM
First 4 yes, last one I have a different interpretation.

The Devil appears as an Angel of Light. God will not contradict His Word. The Devil does.

Brother Vinny
October 28th, 2015, 08:51 PM
I believe God created the universe imperfect on purpose. That we are supposed to build is kingdom here as best we can and build/fix the universe in the image he wants. Us striving to making the universe perfect will bring us closer to him as we will be using His language to guide us (science and math). We do this out of our love and respect to Him. Math and Science are his true word and the Bible is how we use the word to strive towards the above goal. And my idea is that no religion is more right than the other, and all are welcome to worship and discuss their interpretation of the blueprint. Not only that but He does not directly intervene. But unlike deists, I don't believe he does nothing but observe. I believe he gives us hints to better interpret and apply His blueprint.

The main tenets are:
1. That Math and Science are the true word of God
2. The Bible is to be used to teach us how to use His word and not take everything in it verbatim as it is written by many who tend to contradict each other.
3. God purposely made the universe imperfect so we can fix and build His Kingdom here as best we can to get closer with Him.
4. Jesus and His death is what gave us light of what we should be like to build/ fix the universe.
5. We can never achieve the perfection we strive to, yet we still do so out of love and respect to the Lord knowing that only through Him we can achieve the perfection we strive towards.
6. No religion is more right than the other and we can interact with each other as long as it helps aid in the blueprint the Lord left to us.
7. God does not get directly involved but instead gives us hints to what we need to do.

Now I will be happy to discuss this with anyone as I believe in what I have just stated :)

Needs moar legalism.

James Shepard
October 28th, 2015, 08:52 PM
Needs moar legalism.

How so?:)

steko
October 28th, 2015, 09:47 PM
Very good point, but truth will be defined differently from others points of views. Kind of like...How People of the South consider Sherman a war criminal, while the people of the North do not.

Sherman was who he was in reality and that is truth.
People's opinions of him are not necessarily true and don't change the reality of who he was and what he did.

You are confusing that which is or was, and opinions about that which is or was.

It is true that Sherman was who he was and did what he did at the time he was and did and that will not change forever. That's what truth is. Truth doesn't change.....perceptions and opinions do.

glorydaz
October 28th, 2015, 09:50 PM
Sherman was who he was in reality and that is truth.
People's opinions of him are not necessarily true and don't change the reality of who he was and what he did.

You are confusing that which is or was, and opinions about that which is or was.

It is true that Sherman was who he was and did what he did at the time he was and did and that will not change forever. That's what truth is. Truth doesn't change.....perceptions and opinions do.

:thumb:

James Shepard
October 28th, 2015, 09:50 PM
Sherman was who he was in reality and that is truth.
People's opinions of him are not necessarily true and don't change the reality of who he was and what he did.

You are confusing that which is or was, and opinions about that which is or was.

It is true that Sherman was who he was and did what he did at the time he was and did and that will not change forever. That's what truth is. Truth doesn't change.....perceptions and opinions do.

Ah I get what you are saying :) I am just confused why people are calling me blasphemous when all I am doing is coming up with a reasonable and logical idea for a religion.

Eeset
October 28th, 2015, 09:59 PM
Ah I get what you are saying :) I am just confused why people are calling me blasphemous when all I am doing is coming up with a reasonable and logical idea for a religion.
Neither logical nor reasonable. Pure gibberish.

steko
October 28th, 2015, 09:59 PM
Ah I get what you are saying :) I am just confused why people are calling me blasphemous when all I am doing is coming up with a reasonable and logical idea for a religion.

Many of us define 'religion' as man's attempt to be approved by GOD by what man does and trying to gain heaven by his own efforts. (That's one definition, however. There are others.)

The same of us would say that true Christianity is GOD's reaching down to man in order to reconcile men unto Himself solely by grace(unmerited favor) and man's response being the lifting up of the empty hands of trust/faith in order to receive God's free gift.

James Shepard
October 28th, 2015, 10:01 PM
Neither logical nor reasonable. Pure gibberish.

Not really

James Shepard
October 28th, 2015, 10:02 PM
Many of us define 'religion' as man's attempt to be approved by GOD by what man does and trying to gain heaven by his own efforts. (That's one definition, however. There are others.)

The same of us would say that true Christianity is GOD's reaching down to man in order to reconcile men unto Himself solely by grace(unmerited favor) and man's response being the lifting up of the empty hands of trust/faith in order to receive God's free gift.

Fair point lol But my idea is not making the world as perfect as we can just for merit, we do it just because we love Him. The building itself will not lead to Him

George Affleck
October 28th, 2015, 10:42 PM
Not really

Yup - really!
Neither logical nor reasonable, nor Christian.

Grosnick Marowbe
October 29th, 2015, 01:49 AM
Each one believes it to be true. Maybe the Lord did it on purpose. To test us on whether we can cooperate and accomplish great things even when we different on such powerful subjects.

You're just making things up as you go.

Grosnick Marowbe
October 29th, 2015, 01:52 AM
Neither logical nor reasonable. Pure gibberish.

Good post E

Grosnick Marowbe
October 29th, 2015, 01:57 AM
Ah I get what you are saying :) I am just confused why people are calling me blasphemous when all I am doing is coming up with a reasonable and logical idea for a religion.

Maybe, some posters around here are happy with what they believe
and not looking to YOU for a "new religion?" So far, you
haven't done a very good job of explaining what you're trying
to push. You don't seem to understand it yourself?

Grosnick Marowbe
October 29th, 2015, 01:58 AM
Yup - really!
Neither logical nor reasonable, nor Christian.

Yep

Grosnick Marowbe
October 29th, 2015, 02:02 AM
Fair point lol But my idea is not making the world as perfect as we can just for merit, we do it just because we love Him. The building itself will not lead to Him

Do you desire to be in the leadership of this new religion? Perhaps, a Pope?

Grosnick Marowbe
October 29th, 2015, 02:03 AM
Not really

Yeah, really.

Grosnick Marowbe
October 29th, 2015, 02:05 AM
I've wholeheartedly and sincerely lived other religions and was in a darkness which I thought was light, until I came to the true light.....the Lord Jesus Christ by trust in His finished work on the cross in paying the penalty for all my sins against the true God, the creator of the heavens and the earth.

Amen

Grosnick Marowbe
October 29th, 2015, 02:06 AM
Move on to the perfection we strive to. (Heaven)

Through your good works?

Grosnick Marowbe
October 29th, 2015, 02:17 AM
Very good point, but truth will be defined differently from others points of views. Kind of like...How People of the South consider Sherman a war criminal, while the people of the North do not.

So, your truth is the truth, and my truth is the truth as well? Even
though they differ? Everyone's truth is the combined truth of
everyone else's? Does that sound logical to you? If I say, the earth
is round and you say it is flat, are we both speaking the truth?

Is that what your "new religion" is all about? There is no falsity in
our universe, all is truth? All is subjective reasoning/logic? No man
is wrong, all is well?

Perception rules?

Grosnick Marowbe
October 29th, 2015, 02:23 AM
Why am I naive? Because I do not blindly hate those who have a different interpretation of religion?

Who said anything about hate?

Grosnick Marowbe
October 29th, 2015, 02:26 AM
To try and have deep theological discussions :)

You haven't created a single one as yet? Just a lot of wishful thinking
on your part.

Grosnick Marowbe
October 29th, 2015, 02:35 AM
JS, you're very confused and have an inability to properly articulate your
thoughts. Seems as if, you don't have a clue what to believe? So, you believe
and accept everything. No matter what you say, black is black, white is white,
yellow is yellow, etc. To believe these colors are all the same creates a problem
with logic and reason. Understand my analogy?

Brother Vinny
October 29th, 2015, 05:15 AM
How so?:)

Don't mind me, I'm the fly in the ointment.

Seems to me every novel system of Christianity either goes in one of two directions: 1) legalism, to appeal to people's pride in being able to measure up to the system's standard, or 2) licentiousness, to appeal to the LCD of mankind.

What strikes me as odd are those who would balk at the sort of legalism engendered by a system of works, but are every bit as legalist when it comes to their system of belief. Orthodoxy is the new orthopraxy.

Jamie Gigliotti
October 29th, 2015, 05:30 AM
Very good point, but truth will be defined differently from others points of views. Kind of like...How People of the South consider Sherman a war criminal, while the people of the North do not.
Truth by definition is not subjective. Our understanding of objective truth is subjective.

alwight
October 29th, 2015, 07:40 AM
Ah I get what you are saying :) I am just confused why people are calling me blasphemous when all I am doing is coming up with a reasonable and logical idea for a religion.Fundies are typically not people who are open to change or who will wander very far from their literalist view of ancient scripture and in what they deem to be blasphemous.

George Affleck
October 29th, 2015, 08:34 AM
James,

Aunt Nellie can learn and apply knowledge about making jam and relish and improve every year. She can also give bottles away to have-not families and spread good will to the needy. But her domestic science will never answer the big questions that humans must answer.

Who am I?
Why am I here?
Where am I going?

Humans have a basic need to settle these things which is evidenced by the fact that everyone forms opinions about them. I suggest that the very fact that you want to explore new ideas are really part of this need but, at this point, is blind and undirected.

Although other sciences (geology, physics, medicine, etc.) are much more complicated, they are not infinitely so. Just as domestic science is finite, so are the others. The reason many have faith in science is because we are still exploring finite science and it appears infinite - but its not. It is simply the finding out of what is, what works, and how to apply principles for further knowledge. Even atheists will tell you that science cannot answer the big questions.

Not only can science not answer these basic questions, there is only one right answer to each. (ie. God made me - God did not make me, cannot both be true) The fact that there are many wrong answers in the world competing against each other aids in creating the chaos we see today. It also shows that the Bible is right when it says things were created perfectly but now things are broken.

Ask yourself the question: "Is it reasonable to assume, if God created all things, and us as relationship creatures, that He would leave us stranded on this desert island without communicating to us?" I am convinced we are not just goldfish in a bowl in God's living room. The Bible claims to be that communication we would expect from our creator. The big questions are answered there.

alwight
October 29th, 2015, 10:52 AM
Not only can science not answer these basic questions, there is only one right answer to each. (ie. God made me - God did not make me, cannot both be true) The fact that there are many wrong answers in the world competing against each other aids in creating the chaos we see today. It also shows that the Bible is right when it says things were created perfectly but now things are broken.This life is full of "broken" and imperfect things, just as it was when Biblical scripture was first recorded and evidentially long before that too.

All religions were formed in an imperfect world and to outsiders their imperfections are perhaps rather more apparent than to those of the faith.
If however believers themselves become aware of the faults they might perhaps: carry on regardless, give up their belief or start a new one (or a modified version)! :idea:

Presupposition that there once was a time of perfection (a Godly creation since only a god might be perfect?) and that therefore the Bible is literally correct about that and thus everything else it says is therefore true, is of course a nice fat circular fallacy since no time of perfection is evidenced anywhere outside of the human imagination.
Life just is inherently imperfect, that's how it works.

Grosnick Marowbe
October 29th, 2015, 11:06 AM
Fundies are typically not people who are open to change or who will wander very far from their literalist view of ancient scripture and in what they deem to be blasphemous.

The Bible doesn't need to be changed. It is what God wanted
it to be.

alwight
October 29th, 2015, 11:13 AM
The Bible doesn't need to be changed. It is what God wanted
it to be.I get the impression that you have rather more faith in a much transcribed ancient scripture than you do in God, surely not. :think:

James Shepard
October 29th, 2015, 11:58 AM
Do you desire to be in the leadership of this new religion? Perhaps, a Pope?

Nope. Even if I were to set it up, it would be an election to select those who lead, kind of like the Bishops in Protestant religions.

James Shepard
October 29th, 2015, 11:59 AM
This life is full of "broken" and imperfect things, just as it was when Biblical scripture was first recorded and evidentially long before that too.

All religions were formed in an imperfect world and to outsiders their imperfections are perhaps rather more apparent than to those of the faith.
If however believers themselves become aware of the faults they might perhaps: carry on regardless, give up their belief or start a new one (or a modified version)! :idea:

Presupposition that there once was a time of perfection (a Godly creation since only a god might be perfect?) and that therefore the Bible is literally correct about that and thus everything else it says is therefore true, is of course a nice fat circular fallacy since no time of perfection is evidenced anywhere outside of the human imagination.
Life just is inherently imperfect, that's how it works.

Thank you for making that more clear than I could. :)

James Shepard
October 29th, 2015, 12:01 PM
JS, you're very confused and have an inability to properly articulate your
thoughts. Seems as if, you don't have a clue what to believe? So, you believe
and accept everything. No matter what you say, black is black, white is white,
yellow is yellow, etc. To believe these colors are all the same creates a problem
with logic and reason. Understand my analogy?

Can you describe black? Can you describe White? Can you describe Yellow? Can you describe red? It is possible to do so, but every person will describe them differently yet mean the same

James Shepard
October 29th, 2015, 12:06 PM
James,

Aunt Nellie can learn and apply knowledge about making jam and relish and improve every year. She can also give bottles away to have-not families and spread good will to the needy. But her domestic science will never answer the big questions that humans must answer.

Who am I?
Why am I here?
Where am I going?

Humans have a basic need to settle these things which is evidenced by the fact that everyone forms opinions about them. I suggest that the very fact that you want to explore new ideas are really part of this need but, at this point, is blind and undirected.

Although other sciences (geology, physics, medicine, etc.) are much more complicated, they are not infinitely so. Just as domestic science is finite, so are the others. The reason many have faith in science is because we are still exploring finite science and it appears infinite - but its not. It is simply the finding out of what is, what works, and how to apply principles for further knowledge. Even atheists will tell you that science cannot answer the big questions.

Not only can science not answer these basic questions, there is only one right answer to each. (ie. God made me - God did not make me, cannot both be true) The fact that there are many wrong answers in the world competing against each other aids in creating the chaos we see today. It also shows that the Bible is right when it says things were created perfectly but now things are broken.

Ask yourself the question: "Is it reasonable to assume, if God created all things, and us as relationship creatures, that He would leave us stranded on this desert island without communicating to us?" I am convinced we are not just goldfish in a bowl in God's living room. The Bible claims to be that communication we would expect from our creator. The big questions are answered there.

That was a very good point. The problem I am having is just, My idea is very complicated and just so difficult for me to actually put to paper and represent it adequately. I do somewhat believe we are a gold fish but not totally. Even with God's indirect intervention, he is still interacting with us as he set it up long ago. Do you kind of understand what I mean?

James Shepard
October 29th, 2015, 12:12 PM
The Bible doesn't need to be changed. It is what God wanted
it to be.

The Bible has been proven wrong on many occasions (mainly historical). But that does not anyway take away any of its value. I just means it needs a different interpretation rather than being taken so literally. There are things we know happened that the Bible does not say, we also know there are things that did not happen as the Bible says. It comes to interpreting it, not discrediting it.

James Shepard
October 29th, 2015, 12:14 PM
Don't mind me, I'm the fly in the ointment.

Seems to me every novel system of Christianity either goes in one of two directions: 1) legalism, to appeal to people's pride in being able to measure up to the system's standard, or 2) licentiousness, to appeal to the LCD of mankind.

What strikes me as odd are those who would balk at the sort of legalism engendered by a system of works, but are every bit as legalist when it comes to their system of belief. Orthodoxy is the new orthopraxy.

I might understand what you mean but can you simplify it a little.

genuineoriginal
October 29th, 2015, 12:58 PM
I have an Idea for a new Christian Branch.

I like the current Branch.

Isaiah 11:1-5
1 And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots:
2 And the spirit of the Lord shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the Lord;
3 And shall make him of quick understanding in the fear of the Lord: and he shall not judge after the sight of his eyes, neither reprove after the hearing of his ears:
4 But with righteousness shall he judge the poor, and reprove with equity for the meek of the earth: and he shall smite the earth: with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked.
5 And righteousness shall be the girdle of his loins, and faithfulness the girdle of his reins.


I cannot quote Scripture
That is the most likely reason for you wanting to create a new Branch of Christianity.

James Shepard
October 29th, 2015, 03:05 PM
I like the current Branch.

Isaiah 11:1-5
1 And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots:
2 And the spirit of the Lord shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the Lord;
3 And shall make him of quick understanding in the fear of the Lord: and he shall not judge after the sight of his eyes, neither reprove after the hearing of his ears:
4 But with righteousness shall he judge the poor, and reprove with equity for the meek of the earth: and he shall smite the earth: with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked.
5 And righteousness shall be the girdle of his loins, and faithfulness the girdle of his reins.


That is the most likely reason for you wanting to create a new Branch of Christianity.

Well it is not entirely true, I can quote certain scripture, but i cannot quote the entire Bible. But I can quote certain passages and some books. Why do you like the current branch? Whichever you are in.

James Shepard
October 29th, 2015, 03:16 PM
Gee I wonder who tagged the post as babble. Someone who refuses to even compensate or actually listen to what is being said and came here with a negative attitude to start while I have politely talking to everyone who refutes me :) I enjoy the discussion of my idea. What I do not enjoy is those who refuse to see from another point of view while conversing with me. Just because you look from a different point of view, does not mean you have to believe it. It just helps with understanding the opposing side as I have been politely doing with you :) and for the record, for all you Protestants or other form of Christian, you ideas were considered babble for a while as well. People fear change and what they do not understand.

alwight
October 29th, 2015, 03:30 PM
It seems that the tag refers to babble from Grosnick Marowbe, which may be somewhat understandable. :Plain:

James Shepard
October 29th, 2015, 03:33 PM
It seems that the tag refers to babble from Grosnick Marowbe, which may be somewhat understandable. :Plain:

I think they are just being rude lol

James Shepard
October 29th, 2015, 03:37 PM
It seems that the tag refers to babble from Grosnick Marowbe, which may be somewhat understandable. :Plain:

And do you mind helping me revise my idea? I made another post for it :) and would appreciate the help

alwight
October 29th, 2015, 04:13 PM
And do you mind helping me revise my idea? I made another post for it :) and would appreciate the helpToL has a large number of fundamentalist Christians who as I intimated previously would probably prove to be a tough audience for a revised belief system, I wonder how your ideas might be received on a more moderate Christian forum? :think:
But don't be put off, arguing with fundies can be fun. :)
But unless fundies could somehow be persuaded about such things as the real age of the Earth or that there never actually was a global flood, from scientific facts and evidence, then I rather suspect you will get nowhere here. :nono:

George Affleck
October 29th, 2015, 04:25 PM
The Bible has been proven wrong on many occasions (mainly historical).

Wrong.