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The Horn
October 27th, 2015, 09:53 AM
One thing I have never been able to understand about Christianity is what happened to all those born before Jesus . If God sent Jesus to "redeem " mankind 2,000 years ago , why did he do this at that particular time ?
There had already been countless people on earth who lived and died . But what happened to them ? Did they go a a place called hell, one which many Non-Christians, including myself , don't even believe in ? It wasn't their fault they were born before Jesus .

SaulToPaul
October 27th, 2015, 10:14 AM
If they believed what God revealed to them, they went to paradise at death, with faithful Abraham.

daqq
October 27th, 2015, 10:35 AM
If God sent Jesus to "redeem " mankind 2,000 years ago , why did he do this at that particular time ?

Perhaps it was the sixth day, (the Great Preparation Day). :)

chrysostom
October 27th, 2015, 10:47 AM
If they believed what God revealed to them, they went to paradise at death, with faithful Abraham.

then why did Jesus do what He had to do?

chrysostom
October 27th, 2015, 10:51 AM
One thing I have never been able to understand about Christianity is what happened to all those born before Jesus . If God sent Jesus to "redeem " mankind 2,000 years ago , why did he do this at that particular time ?
There had already been countless people on earth who lived and died . But what happened to them ? Did they go a a place called hell, one which many Non-Christians, including myself , don't even believe in ? It wasn't their fault they were born before Jesus .

they went to hades until they were redeemed by Jesus


Revelation 20:5King James Version (KJV)

5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

SaulToPaul
October 27th, 2015, 10:52 AM
then why did Jesus do what He had to do?

So they could be resurrected.

heir
October 27th, 2015, 11:12 AM
If they believed what God revealed to them, they went to paradise at death, with faithful Abraham.

:up: Yep!

Robert Pate
October 27th, 2015, 11:16 AM
One thing I have never been able to understand about Christianity is what happened to all those born before Jesus . If God sent Jesus to "redeem " mankind 2,000 years ago , why did he do this at that particular time ?
There had already been countless people on earth who lived and died . But what happened to them ? Did they go a a place called hell, one which many Non-Christians, including myself , don't even believe in ? It wasn't their fault they were born before Jesus .

They believed God's promise of a savior and they were justified by faith. Just like Abraham, Romans 4:1-6.

WonderfulLordJesus
October 27th, 2015, 11:17 AM
One thing I have never been able to understand about Christianity is what happened to all those born before Jesus . If God sent Jesus to "redeem " mankind 2,000 years ago , why did he do this at that particular time ?
There had already been countless people on earth who lived and died . But what happened to them ? Did they go a a place called hell, one which many Non-Christians, including myself , don't even believe in ? It wasn't their fault they were born before Jesus .

1 Peter 3

18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison.

Romans 2

11 For there is no respect of persons with God.
12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;
13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another)
16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

This is only an opinion, as there is nothing explicitly addressing this in scripture, and people have differeing views on 1 Peter 3:19, who was preached to, and when. I believe the Lord Jesus preached to those spirits who perished in the flood, perhaps a wider, likewise audience of those who never heard the gospel. Personally, I can't see the point of preaching to those without any hope of acting on that preaching. Also, in Romans 2, it's indicated that, in all our consciences, regardless ever hearing any scripture, we have thoughts that accuse and excuse, hence one must wonder what is excused, on what level? Again, this is just speculation and my opinion, but I believe those never availed the gospel may be offered the gospel as spirits, as it is not consisent a God willing that none should perish would condemn anybody, at least anybody of overall goodwill, for being born in a circumstance that deprives them of the gospel of Jesus Christ that saves. Again, this is just what I've always thought on this, and, whatever others may believe, the facts remain that God is righteous, just, loving and merciful, and, in whatever we don't understand, I trust the Lord to always do what is right, also knowing we all see through the glass darkly and are in no position, by virtue of our own limited knowledge and wisdom, to judge eternal, Holy God.

It is also a very academic point, not worth creating prejudice and strife over, when it is our position that we have the gospel of Jesus Christ, our business what we are going to do with that gospel, far removed from those who perished in the flood to have anything to do with this. This is solely God's business, not ours. For instance, your only pressing problem is what you're going to do with the saving blood of Jesus Christ, repent and accept Him as your Savior, or be condemned to hell, as, having the gospel available to you, you will surely have no excuses! So, if I were you, I'd worry more about myself and my eternity, than the dead that are really none of your concern.

Proverbs 3

1 My son, forget not my law; but let thine heart keep my commandments:
2 For length of days, and long life, and peace, shall they add to thee.
3 Let not mercy and truth forsake thee: bind them about thy neck; write them upon the table of thine heart:
4 So shalt thou find favour and good understanding in the sight of God and man.
5 Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.
6 In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths.
7 Be not wise in thine own eyes: fear the LORD, and depart from evil.

Spitfire
October 27th, 2015, 12:54 PM
The part about how Jesus "descended into hell" in the apostles creed refers to how Jesus went to open heaven to all of the faithful (who had been justified under the old law) who had been waiting in hell.

So, yes.

iamaberean
October 27th, 2015, 02:25 PM
One thing I have never been able to understand about Christianity is what happened to all those born before Jesus . If God sent Jesus to "redeem " mankind 2,000 years ago , why did he do this at that particular time ?
There had already been countless people on earth who lived and died . But what happened to them ? Did they go a a place called hell, one which many Non-Christians, including myself , don't even believe in ? It wasn't their fault they were born before Jesus .

Rev 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
The Jews had the books of the law (Old Testament) that they were judged by.

Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
The sea often refers to Gentiles, and even though they did not have laws to obey, they were judged solely by their works.

jamie
October 27th, 2015, 04:20 PM
they were judged solely by their works.


But their salvation pictured by the Book of Life will be by God's grace.

Nick M
October 27th, 2015, 05:44 PM
Did they go a a place called hell, one which many Non-Christians, including myself , don't even believe in ?

You and George Carlin have this in common. Like George, you will beg for reconciliation after it is too late. The attributes of the invisible God are clearly seen. You are without excuse. Instead, you choose to worship pigs.

I really wish I didn't waste my time like I do with a :loser: like you.

Lazy afternoon
October 28th, 2015, 12:41 AM
You and George Carlin have this in common. Like George, you will beg for reconciliation after it is too late. The attributes of the invisible God are clearly seen. You are without excuse. Instead, you choose to worship pigs.

I really wish I didn't waste my time like I do with a :loser: like you.

Isa 65:5 Which say, Stand by thyself, come not near to me; for I am holier than thou. These are a smoke in my nose, a fire that burneth all the day.

Lazy afternoon
October 28th, 2015, 12:44 AM
One thing I have never been able to understand about Christianity is what happened to all those born before Jesus . If God sent Jesus to "redeem " mankind 2,000 years ago , why did he do this at that particular time ?
There had already been countless people on earth who lived and died . But what happened to them ? Did they go a a place called hell, one which many Non-Christians, including myself , don't even believe in ? It wasn't their fault they were born before Jesus .

Rom 2:4 Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?
Rom 2:5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
Rom 2:6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
Rom 2:7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
Rom 2:8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
Rom 2:9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
Rom 2:10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
Rom 2:11 For there is no respect of persons with God.
Rom 2:12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;

1Co 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
1Co 15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
1Co 15:55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
1Co 15:56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.
1Co 15:57 But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

Rom 5:14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.
Rom 5:15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.
Rom 5:16 And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.
Rom 5:17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)
Rom 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
Rom 5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
Rom 5:20 Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:
Rom 5:21 That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

Rom 4:3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
Rom 4:4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
Rom 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
Rom 4:6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,
Rom 4:7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.
Rom 4:8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.
Rom 4:9 Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness.
Rom 4:10 How was it then reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision.
Rom 4:11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also:

Bradley D
October 28th, 2015, 01:14 AM
One thing I have never been able to understand about Christianity is what happened to all those born before Jesus . If God sent Jesus to "redeem " mankind 2,000 years ago , why did he do this at that particular time ?
There had already been countless people on earth who lived and died . But what happened to them ? Did they go a a place called hell, one which many Non-Christians, including myself , don't even believe in ? It wasn't their fault they were born before Jesus .

No hell? Where is this place?

"For a fire will be kindled by my wrath, one that burns down to the realm of the dead below. It will devour the earth and its harvests and set afire the foundations of the mountains" (Deut. 32:22).

I believe others were in heaven prior to Jesus. Where is Enoch?

"Enoch walked faithfully with God; then he was no more, because God took him away" (Gen. 5:24).

Where is Elijah?

"As they were walking along and talking together, suddenly a chariot of fire and horses of fire appeared and separated the two of them, and Elijah went up to heaven in a whirlwind" (2 Kings 2:11).

Lazy afternoon
October 28th, 2015, 01:51 AM
No hell? Where is this place?

"For a fire will be kindled by my wrath, one that burns down to the realm of the dead below. It will devour the earth and its harvests and set afire the foundations of the mountains" (Deut. 32:22).

I believe others were in heaven prior to Jesus. Where is Enoch?

"Enoch walked faithfully with God; then he was no more, because God took him away" (Gen. 5:24).

Where is Elijah?

"As they were walking along and talking together, suddenly a chariot of fire and horses of fire appeared and separated the two of them, and Elijah went up to heaven in a whirlwind" (2 Kings 2:11).

Wherever Enoch is, or Moses and Elijah, they can not be where Jesus is--- yet

1Ti 6:14 That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukeable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ:
1Ti 6:15 Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;
1Ti 6:16 Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.

LA

daqq
October 28th, 2015, 02:16 AM
I believe others were in heaven prior to Jesus. Where is Enoch?

"Enoch walked faithfully with God; then he was no more, because God took him away" (Gen. 5:24).

Where is Elijah?

"As they were walking along and talking together, suddenly a chariot of fire and horses of fire appeared and separated the two of them, and Elijah went up to heaven in a whirlwind" (2 Kings 2:11).

But where is the heaven of which you speak? The translation of Enoch does not mean he was never seen again. No one thought that was what it meant in the old days or the book of Enoch would have never been accepted because just by the very fact that it was written implies that Enoch was sent back to write it after having been taken. Neither is "tasting death" the same as "seeing death" as Yeshua himself expounds in several passages which stipulate a difference between the two. We shall all taste of death but we shall not all "see" death. The author of Hebrews also makes clear that Enoch died, saying, "THESE ALL DIED IN FAITH, without having received the promises", which statement includes what was previously said of Enoch in the same passage:

Hebrews 11:5-13 KJV
5. By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.
*SNIP*
13. These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.

In other words if you read the book of Enoch you are by default accepting that the author, who claims to be Enoch, is writing about what happened when he was "taken", (or hidden as he says). How then did he supposedly write the words if he never returned? Those of old therefore clearly did not believe Enoch was literally physically carried away into the sky, never to be seen again, not even the author of the epistle to the Hebrews in the above passage. As for Eliyahu he was commanded to anoint Jehu the son of Nimshi as king over Israel: did he do so as commanded or did he not? Who anointed Jehu as king of Israel? It was not even Elisha who did so. Tradition says it was the young man of the prophets whose name was Yonah, (the same Yonah the Prophet). Eliyahu is therefore the Spirit of the Prophets because if not then he did not carry out the command to anoint Jehu as king of Israel:

1 Kings 19:15-19 KJV
15. And the Lord said unto him, Go, return on thy way to the wilderness of Damascus: and when thou comest, anoint Hazael to be king over Syria:
16. And Jehu the son of Nimshi shalt thou anoint to be king over Israel: and Elisha the son of Shaphat of Abelmeholah shalt thou anoint to be prophet in thy room.
17. And it shall come to pass, that him that escapeth the sword of Hazael shall Jehu slay: and him that escapeth from the sword of Jehu shall Elisha slay.
18. Yet I have left me seven thousand in Israel, all the knees which have not bowed unto Baal, and every mouth which hath not kissed him.
19. So he departed thence, and found Elisha the son of Shaphat, who was plowing with twelve yoke of oxen before him, and he with the twelfth: and Elijah passed by him, and cast his mantle upon him.

Eliyahu anoints Elisha and later the mantle of Eliyahu falls to Elisha, and he is given the double portion when Eliyahu is taken up in a whirlwind, but who anoints Jehu as king over Israel?

2 Kings 9:1-3 KJV
1. And Elisha the prophet called one of the children of the prophets, [Yonah] and said unto him, Gird up thy loins, and take this box of oil in thine hand, and go to Ramothgilead:
2. And when thou comest thither, look out there Jehu the son of Jehoshaphat the son of Nimshi, and go in, and make him arise up from among his brethren, and carry him to an inner chamber;
3. Then take the box of oil, and pour it on his head, and say, Thus saith the Lord, I have anointed thee king over Israel. Then open the door, and flee, and tarry not.

Therefore likewise Yochanan the Immerser can say that he is NOT Eliyahu because Eliyahu is the Spirit of the Prophets and the anointing of Eliyahu was upon him, (Luke 1:17) but he was not him. Simon Peter then having been a disciple of Yochanan could also be rightfully called Simon Bar-Yonah, (flesh and blood does not reveal such things). Truly, truly, the Master says, you must be born from above, that is, translated, like Enoch who walked with the Elohim. Perhaps in the eighth day one will consider it perfectly, (but there is an immersion to undergo). :)

chrysostom
October 28th, 2015, 08:33 AM
So they could be resurrected.

are you saying that they were already in heaven
and
Jesus had to do His thing just so they could be resurrected?

that is my understanding of what you posted so far

is that right?

oatmeal
October 28th, 2015, 08:42 AM
One thing I have never been able to understand about Christianity is what happened to all those born before Jesus . If God sent Jesus to "redeem " mankind 2,000 years ago , why did he do this at that particular time ?
There had already been countless people on earth who lived and died . But what happened to them ? Did they go a a place called hell, one which many Non-Christians, including myself , don't even believe in ? It wasn't their fault they were born before Jesus .

What do you mean by "hell"?

What does scripture mean by "hell" or the Hebrew sheol and the Greek hades?

Lazy afternoon
October 28th, 2015, 02:06 PM
But where is the heaven of which you speak? The translation of Enoch does not mean he was never seen again. No one thought that was what it meant in the old days or the book of Enoch would have never been accepted because just by the very fact that it was written implies that Enoch was sent back to write it after having been taken. Neither is "tasting death" the same as "seeing death" as Yeshua himself expounds in several passages which stipulate a difference between the two. We shall all taste of death but we shall not all "see" death. The author of Hebrews also makes clear that Enoch died, saying, "THESE ALL DIED IN FAITH, without having received the promises", which statement includes what was previously said of Enoch in the same passage:



Do you think Enoch died or just taken somewhere else?

What do think of Moses and Elijah.

The book of Enoch was not written by Enoch or any man of true faith, so I would not rely upon that.

LA

daqq
October 28th, 2015, 02:40 PM
Do you think Enoch died or just taken somewhere else?

What do think of Moses and Elijah.

The book of Enoch was not written by Enoch or any man of true faith, so I would not rely upon that.

LA

I believe Enoch was "caught up" just like Saul, whose name was then changed to Paul, and Stephanos, who slept for the days, (the Lazarus days which are three days and the half) whose name was then changed to Stephanas after Saul immersed him in a hail of fiery stones, and Philip who was taken up and then later found to be in Azotus, and Job, who was probably taken up into the whirlwind and spoke with Elohim; even all those that are born from above, and this is part of the gospel of Paul which he received from the Revelation of Messiah Yeshua, (the book). All of these men shed their bodies, (the flesh profits nothing in the doctrine of Yeshua). But before the resurrection of Yeshua all those of faith died, in faith, not having received the promise, just as the author of the epistle to the Hebrews says in what was quoted previously above. Those from before Messiah were clearly said to have been raised in Matthew 27:51-53. A great body of the Tanach saints came forth from the graves with the resurrection of Messiah and went up into the holy city, (Yerushalaim of above). Many of those were exhibited for all to see, as the passage says, like Hezekiah who was healed and then promised that he would go up into the house of YHWH in the Third Day. I have no doubt Hezekiah was one of those from Matthew 27:51-53 because he is exhibited in the writings for all to see and the promise was clearly foretold many years before Golgotha. As for the book of Enoch its validity was not the point. The point made has no bearing on whether you in this day and age choose to receive it or not. The point was that there were at one time many who did receive it because many fragments have been found at Qumran which are older than anything in the Apostolic writings, (in some cases by at least two hundred years). Those such as Jude who believed Enoch to be holy writ would in no way have believed that the author disappeared without a trace, taken "to heaven", in some sort of "physical bodily rapture", never to be seen or heard from again: for if that were true, he could not have written about it. Jude does not just quote from 1Enoch and say it is prophecy but rather calls Enoch a prophet and quotes from 1 Enoch. Essentially by default Jude is claiming that Enoch wrote it:

Jude 1:4a
4a. For there are certain men crept in unawares, even they who were of old time written of beforehand unto this condemnation:

Jude 1:14-15
14. And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,
15. To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.

Jude does not say "the book of Enoch prophesied", no, but rather states as fact, "Enoch prophesied", and then goes on to quote from 1Enoch. The claim is explicit that those are the words of Enoch himself. Whether one wants to believe that statement or not is another question but that is the claim made by the epistle of Jude.

jamie
October 28th, 2015, 02:58 PM
Do you think Enoch died or just taken somewhere else?


Enoch is listed in Hebrews 11:5. God transported Enoch to a place where he would not be found so that he wouldn't die where he was.


So all the days of Enoch were three hundred and sixty-five years. Enoch walked faithfully with God, then he was no more because God took him away.(Genesis 5:23-24 NKJV)

These all died in faith including Enoch. (Hebrews 11:13 NKJV)

daqq
October 28th, 2015, 03:32 PM
Enoch is listed in Hebrews 11:5. God transported Enoch to a place where he would not be found so that he wouldn't die where he was.

So all the days of Enoch were three hundred and sixty-five years. Enoch walked faithfully with God, then he was no more because God took him away.(Genesis 5:23-24 NKJV)These all died in faith including Enoch. (Hebrews 11:13 NKJV)

A "transportation" is not the same as a "translation" because a translation implies a transformation. This is critical because the author employs the same wording for the transformation of the law concerning the High Priesthood in Hebrews 7:12, (generally rendered as a "change" in the law which imo is a faulty rendering because the word "change" also now gives a false impression in modern English terms and the modern mindset).

Lazy afternoon
October 28th, 2015, 08:19 PM
I believe Enoch was "caught up" just like Saul, whose name was then changed to Paul, and Stephanos, who slept for the days, (the Lazarus days which are three days and the half) whose name was then changed to Stephanas after Saul immersed him in a hail of fiery stones, and Philip who was taken up and then later found to be in Azotus, and Job, who was probably taken up into the whirlwind and spoke with Elohim; even all those that are born from above, and this is part of the gospel of Paul which he received from the Revelation of Messiah Yeshua, (the book). All of these men shed their bodies, (the flesh profits nothing in the doctrine of Yeshua). But before the resurrection of Yeshua all those of faith died, in faith, not having received the promise, just as the author of the epistle to the Hebrews says in what was quoted previously above. Those from before Messiah were clearly said to have been raised in Matthew 27:51-53. A great body of the Tanach saints came forth from the graves with the resurrection of Messiah and went up into the holy city, (Yerushalaim of above). Many of those were exhibited for all to see, as the passage says, like Hezekiah who was healed and then promised that he would go up into the house of YHWH in the Third Day. I have no doubt Hezekiah was one of those from Matthew 27:51-53 because he is exhibited in the writings for all to see and the promise was clearly foretold many years before Golgotha. As for the book of Enoch its validity was not the point. The point made has no bearing on whether you in this day and age choose to receive it or not. The point was that there were at one time many who did receive it because many fragments have been found at Qumran which are older than anything in the Apostolic writings, (in some cases by at least two hundred years). Those such as Jude who believed Enoch to be holy writ would in no way have believed that the author disappeared without a trace, taken "to heaven", in some sort of "physical bodily rapture", never to be seen or heard from again: for if that were true, he could not have written about it. Jude does not just quote from 1Enoch and say it is prophecy but rather calls Enoch a prophet and quotes from 1 Enoch. Essentially by default Jude is claiming that Enoch wrote it:

Jude 1:4a
4a. For there are certain men crept in unawares, even they who were of old time written of beforehand unto this condemnation:

Jude 1:14-15
14. And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,
15. To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.

Jude does not say "the book of Enoch prophesied", no, but rather states as fact, "Enoch prophesied", and then goes on to quote from 1Enoch. The claim is explicit that those are the words of Enoch himself. Whether one wants to believe that statement or not is another question but that is the claim made by the epistle of Jude.


None of that makes the book of Enoch legit.

It just means some of it may be.

LA

daqq
October 29th, 2015, 02:07 AM
None of that makes the book of Enoch legit.

It just means some of it may be.

LA

If the point was to show that the book of 1Enoch is legitimate I would be quoting Moses, Isaiah, Daniel, Yeshua, the Gospel authors and especially Luke, then Jude. However the amount of space that would be necessary for all of the evidence would require a new thread, and that was not the point to begin with, and not the theme of this thread. :)

intojoy
October 29th, 2015, 04:18 AM
One thing I have never been able to understand about Christianity is what happened to all those born before Jesus . If God sent Jesus to "redeem " mankind 2,000 years ago , why did he do this at that particular time ?
There had already been countless people on earth who lived and died . But what happened to them ? Did they go a a place called hell, one which many Non-Christians, including myself , don't even believe in ? It wasn't their fault they were born before Jesus .

Good question. Answer: yes they went Sheol
Hades or Paradise (Abraham's Bosom)

chrysostom
October 29th, 2015, 04:39 AM
Good question. Answer: yes they went Sheol
Hades or Paradise (Abraham's Bosom)

based on what?

jon machtemes
October 29th, 2015, 04:59 AM
Here is what I know and understand from Scripture.
First, I would like to talk about hell a moment. There are 3 different words translated often as "hell" and two distinct words that many just take as synonyms for "hell". Hell is old English, (possibly derived from norse/germanic), and it means abode of the dead or a covering. The 5 terms or words either translated to "hell" or used as synonyms for such are: 1) sheol 2) hades 3) gehenna 4) tartarus 5) lake of fire. "Sheol" means the pit or grave and is synonymous with "Hades": Hades being used in the Septuagint and through the New Testament to mean just that...the grave, (both of them also denote a covering). Job was a righteous man and spoke of going to sheol. There are other examples, but I will leave it at that. "Gehenna", properly = "the valey of the sons of Hinnom" was a place where, for centuries, was used as a place where Isrealites sacrificed their children to the pagan god "Molech" and in Jesus' day was used as a garbage burning dump. Jesus only spoke of Gehenna to Jerusalem Jews, as did James once. In the valley of Hinnom they would try to keep the fires burning, but commonly this was difficult. When Jesus speaks of destruction and Gehenna it is a picture to the Jerusalem Jew of what He refers to in Matthew 25:41 "pyr to aionion" eternal fire. Gehenna was a picture of this eternal fire. This fire is eternal in its work: the judgement everlasting, but does this act of burning go on forever?...of that I am not fully convinced. "Tartarus" is again Greek in origin and implies more of a verb when used only once by Peter and it pertains to a place or state of the deepest gloomy darkness. The reason I believe Peter even uses "Tartarus" once is because it parralelled their own legends of where the Titans were imprisoned. I believe the usage also reenforces the Genesis 6 interpretation of "sons of God" as angles, or the angels who sinned. "Lake of Fire" or properly, "limnen tou pyros kai theiou"= lake of fire and sulfer, used specifically in Revelation, (a book of symbolism), is a place where the beast, false prophet, satan, death, and hades are all thrown into. Now that I got that out of my system, let me please say this: the wicked will be destroyed, there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth on that great and terrible day, and you do not want to be at that judgement. Repent (turn away) from your sinfullness and believe on Jesus Christ, (the only begotten Son of God who paid for your sins on the cross and was raised from the dead), before it is too late and you go down to the pit or Christ returns and judges the living and the dead. Do I think the dead without Christ burn forever? No, I actually don't. Many will disagree and we can hash that out some other place. But as for the dead of the Old Testament: there were many from Adam to Christ who God justified and the Bible calls righteous. How is this so? The Bible also says "there is only one name under heaven by which we must be saved" Acts 4:12. This is Christ Jesus. He is called the "lamb slain from the foundations of the world" Revelation 13:8 and 1 Peter 1:20. Since God "declares the end from the beginning and from ancient times the things not yet done" Isaiah 46:10, then from the creation the salvific work of Christ was ordained: it wasn't an "if, when", it was ordained by God and a present reality. Jesus life and victorious saving death was not plan b, it was ever plan a-z. Jesus' atoning sacrifice paid for the sins of all those who put their faith in God's redemption. In the OT they couldn't fully realize the way in which God would do this, but the OT saints believed God and this was counted to them for righteousness. That righteousness could only come from one source= the lamb slain from the foundation of the world. There is no such thing as Old Testament wrath and New Testament grace. The Bible tells the whole story of God and man: Christ in the OT forshadowed is in the NT revealed and any moment now He will be revealed in all His glory from the skies: coming on the clouds with all power and authority to judge the living and the dead. I urge you to please turn from your sin and believe on Him before its too late. One day the dead without Christ will be raised, judged, and they and their sinful works will be burned up and consumed. I don't believe God to be a sadist, and do not see judgement as being forever in torment, but the judgement is eternal. You can either perish in flame with your works or live eternally with the God who is so loving as to give His only begotten Son to be abused, mocked, rejected, and crucified for those who are his enemies= you and I. Jesus said, "eternal life is to know the Father and the Son" John 17:3. NOTE: The spirits Jesus preached to in prison, before His bodily ressurection, were the same mentioned in 2 Peter 2:4, "the angels who sinned". Reference that with 1 Peter 3:19-20. God bless you.

chrysostom
October 29th, 2015, 05:33 AM
Here is what I know and understand from Scripture.

so where did they go?

jon machtemes
October 29th, 2015, 06:31 AM
If the question means "where did and do those souls go who have not Christ?" Ecclesiastes 9:5 says, "For the living know that they die, and the dead know not anything, and there is no more to them a reward, for their remembrance hath been forgotten." The dead are just that. They are dead. Those without Christ await the great and terrible day judgement in which they and their works will be utterly consumed. Now, this part is just comment and speculative, but based on all my reading of Scripture we know since the wages of sin is death and the gift of God is eternal life, that life is not assured to all, but only those in Christ. This in no way should comfort the wicked, they will be judged. But I believe it is shown that they are dead and reserved for that great day. Peter said, in 2 Peter 3:19, "Christ died once for sin". If the punishment was to last for all eternity for sin than why did his DEATH satisfy that punishment? And so yes, I believe the Bible teaches that the dead are dead and those whom Christ has made alive are alive. This is also speculative, but, for the most part (with perhaps some exceptions, i.e. Enoch, Elisha, perhaps Moses), when one dies I believe their next concious moment is in eternity. Time and eternity aren't compatible, so I don't know the exactness of how it works out, but I believe the dead will be raised, immediately after they expire, to the judgement. Quick answer, but you know, since many hold to a belief that requires eternal concious torment, this subject needs its own seperate discussion.

dialm
October 29th, 2015, 06:35 AM
They were all totally depraved. Some of them were unconditionally elected to citizenship in heaven. The Blood of Christ is Limited for the elected irregardless of time. The elect have an irrefutable call to Grace and cannot resist no matter nationality or background or religious affiliation. These people are preserved for all time. They never tasted the second death as it never had any power over them no matter when they lived on earth.

dialm
October 29th, 2015, 06:36 AM
But purgatory is a good idea for the lost. Put them there until they get a fair trial. Then place them in Hell. Very simple.

jamie
October 29th, 2015, 07:51 AM
One day the dead without Christ will be raised, judged, and they and their sinful works will be burned up and consumed.


Judged by whom?

Paragraphs?

chrysostom
October 29th, 2015, 08:37 AM
Did All Those Born Before Jesus Go To Hell ?

you can see how they all struggle with this question
and
for most it is a real problem for their theology
they can't really answer the question
because
they really do not understand why Jesus did what He did

the answer is very simple
no one could be saved until Jesus did what He did
so
what happened to all the good people before that?
they went to hades until they could be saved
what about the others?

here is a clue

Revelation 20:5King James Version (KJV)

5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

Jamie Gigliotti
October 29th, 2015, 08:45 AM
One thing I have never been able to understand about Christianity is what happened to all those born before Jesus . If God sent Jesus to "redeem " mankind 2,000 years ago , why did he do this at that particular time ?
There had already been countless people on earth who lived and died . But what happened to them ? Did they go a a place called hell, one which many Non-Christians, including myself , don't even believe in ? It wasn't their fault they were born before Jesus .

From the perspective of a Bible believer. You can not say they have all gone to Hell. At the transfiguration of Jesus on the mountain, Moses and Elijah were with Him. They were not in Hell. One can only presume they were in Heaven with their Father before and after that moment.

Jesus said narrow is the road that leads to life with Him and few find it. The road could only have been exponentially more narrow before Him.

We can complain why didn't Jesus come sooner, or be thankful that He did. Obviously God knew the right time for His arrival and He worked painstakingly hard to create a people for Him to come through.

chrysostom
October 29th, 2015, 09:08 AM
From the perspective of a Bible believer. You can not say they have all gone to Hell. At the transfiguration of Jesus on the mountain, Moses and Elijah were with Him. They were not in Hell. One can only presume they were in Heaven with their Father before and after that moment.

Jesus said narrow is the road that leads to life with Him and few find it. The road could only have been exponentially more narrow before Him.

We can complain why didn't Jesus come sooner, or be thankful that He did. Obviously God knew the right time for His arrival and He worked painstakingly hard to create a people for Him to come through.

are you confused?

saying

Jesus made it easier to get to heaven

that is what you just said

Jamie Gigliotti
October 29th, 2015, 09:31 AM
are you confused?

saying

Jesus made it easier to get to heaven

that is what you just said
His sacrifice can bring us near to Him if we trust Him.
"Therefore, brothers, since we have cofidence to enter the holy places by the blood of Jesus, by the new and living way that He opened for us through the curtain, that is through His flesh, and since we have a great priest over the house of God, let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, with our hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water." Hebrews 10:19-22

The new covenant replaces the old, as it is better as Hebrews aptly explains. The new covenant also includes the Gentiles.

If you believe God's word Moses and Elijah were not in Hell. They were with the Father and Jesus in His Glory at the transfiguration.

intojoy
October 29th, 2015, 10:42 AM
Did All Those Born Before Jesus Go To Hell ?

you can see how they all struggle with this question
and
for most it is a real problem for their theology
they can't really answer the question
because
they really do not understand why Jesus did what He did

the answer is very simple
no one could be saved until Jesus did what He did
so
what happened to all the good people before that?
they went to hades until they could be saved
what about the others?

here is a clue

Revelation 20:5King James Version (KJV)

5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

Yes they all went to Sheol or Hades.
Sheol had three compartments.

Paradise where the saved went (where Jesus went to loose them and bring them to heaven)

Tartarus where some fallen angels are held

Hades where the unbelievers still go

dialm
October 29th, 2015, 10:47 AM
Did All Those Born Before Jesus Go To Hell ?

you can see how they all struggle with this question
and
for most it is a real problem for their theology
they can't really answer the question
because
they really do not understand why Jesus did what He did

the answer is very simple
no one could be saved until Jesus did what He did
so
what happened to all the good people before that?
they went to hades until they could be saved
what about the others?

here is a clue

Revelation 20:5King James Version (KJV)

5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

What shall we do with Revelation 13:8?

Ben Masada
October 29th, 2015, 11:08 AM
One thing I have never been able to understand about Christianity is what happened to all those born before Jesus . If God sent Jesus to "redeem " mankind 2,000 years ago , why did he do this at that particular time ?
There had already been countless people on earth who lived and died . But what happened to them ? Did they go a a place called hell, one which many Non-Christians, including myself , don't even believe in ? It wasn't their fault they were born before Jesus .

Yes Horn, not only all those born before Jesus went to hell but also all those who have been born since then to this very day. Evidence? Almost every one of us has seen them die every day and been taken to the grave aka sheol aka hell. And mind you not to believe in any other kind of hell because there ain't.

WonderfulLordJesus
October 29th, 2015, 11:29 AM
Thought I'd offer this up again, to give some here the opportunity to say the Lord Jesus didn't mean what He clearly taught, that the Bible doesn't mean what it says. Also, in the usual interest of fair warning, to anybody who may consider: do you really want the emphasis to change in your life, from denying truth, to a very rude awakening to the strong desire for simply a drop of water, with plenty of time to consider the cost of being a fool?

Luke 16

19 There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:
20 And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,
21 And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.
22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.
27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:
28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

Mark 9

42 And whosoever shall offend one of these little ones that believe in me, it is better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he were cast into the sea.
43 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
44 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
45 And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
46 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
47 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire:
48 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

jamie
October 29th, 2015, 11:48 AM
At the transfiguration of Jesus on the mountain, Moses and Elijah were with Him.


The transfiguration was a vision.


Now as they came down from the mountain, Jesus commanded them, saying, “Tell the vision to no one until the Son of Man is risen from the dead.” (Matthew 17:9 NKJV)

jamie
October 29th, 2015, 11:57 AM
Luke 16

19 There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:
20 And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,
21 And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.


The rich man pictured Israel, the people of Jacob. The beggar pictured the Gentiles.


Then she came and worshiped Him, saying, “Lord, help me!”

But He answered and said, “It is not good to take the children’s bread and throw it to the little dogs.”

And she said, “Yes, Lord, yet even the little dogs eat the crumbs which fall from their masters’ table.” (Matthew 15:25-27 NKJV)

Ben Masada
October 29th, 2015, 12:21 PM
[quote]Thought I'd offer this up again, to give some here the opportunity to say the Lord Jesus didn't mean what He clearly taught, that the Bible doesn't mean what it says. Also, in the usual interest of fair warning, to anybody who may consider: do you really want the emphasis to change in your life, from denying truth, to a very rude awakening to the strong desire for simply a drop of water, with plenty of time to consider the cost of being a fool?

I am not too familiar with the cost of being a fool but, the real fool I can tell you, is the religious one who picks up the member of another religion to promote that of his own. That's called Replacement Theology. As you know, Jesus was a Jew and not a Christian and Christians have no qualms to use a Jew to promote Christianity. Is not that the case here? As we all are well aware, Jesus never converted to Christianity.


Luke 16:19 There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day: 20 And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores, 21 And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. 22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; 23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. 24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. 25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented. 26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence. 27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house: 28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment. 29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them. 30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent. 31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

It's a pity when a Christian chooses to discuss a Biblical text without even knowing the difference between a parable and a real event. The text about the Richman and Lazarus in Luke 16:19-31 is a parable used by Jesus to teach about the role of the Law as the only way to prevent "hell-fire". Jesus was not implying that there is a hell-fire to torment sinners in the afterlife but to illustrate what he said in Mat. 5:18 that the Law would not pass away as long as heaven and earth were in existence. In saying a parable or allegory or reporting a dream or vision, every thing is allowed. Open season there is. But the truth is in the lesson the letter points to.


Mark 9:42 And whosoever shall offend one of these little ones that believe in me, it is better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he were cast into the sea. 43 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: 44 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. 45 And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: 46 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. 47 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire: 48 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

And all these under Mark 9:42-48 are parables or allegories. As you know, Jesus, while preaching out in the public way-fare he used parables and, in the privacy of his disciples, he would explain what he meant.

Ben Masada
October 29th, 2015, 12:43 PM
The rich man pictured Israel, the people of Jacob. The beggar pictured the Gentiles.

[INDENT]Then she came and worshiped Him, saying, “Lord, help me!”

But He answered and said, “It is not good to take the children’s bread and throw it to the little dogs.”

And she said, “Yes, Lord, yet even the little dogs eat the crumbs which fall from their masters’ table.” (Matthew 15:25-27)

Nice try Jamie but, no offense meant, there is not a single translation of the NT with your sweet addition of "little dogs". What Jesus said was that he would not take of the bread of the children and throw it unto the dogs. Not little dogs. And as the Canaanite woman acknowledge her condition of dog, and not "little dog", Jesus cured her daughter. But hey, as I said, your intention was sweet.

WonderfulLordJesus
October 29th, 2015, 12:44 PM
As you know, Jesus was a Jew... blah blah blah blah blah.

How is it that you, an unbeliever in Jesus Christ, hence somebody who doesn't get Christianity, think to comment on Christian theology? This is like saying, "I don't understand any of it, but here's what it means." Add to that you reject the mountain of prophecy in the Old Testament, with Christ stamped all over the pages. Is there any reason a Christian should expect a profitable conversation from somebody who rejects the very faith? Seems to me you're just trolling Christians, frankly.

1 Corinthians 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Ben Masada
October 29th, 2015, 12:47 PM
The transfiguration was a vision.


Now as they came down from the mountain, Jesus commanded them, saying, “Tell the vision to no one until the Son of Man is risen from the dead.” (Matthew 17:9 NKJV)

Since the son of man was a Jew, he is still in the grave. What resurrected was the Pauline doctrine that the son of man was son of God and that he resurrected from the dead. That's from II Tim. 2:8 and Acts 9:20. But when Jesus told his 3 disciples not to tell the vision to no one, it was a Catch-22 which means when a command is given to be obeyed by doing the opposite. That's why we all know what happened up there in the Mount Tabor. Peter, John and James knew that Jesus meant the opposite and told every one about the vision.

Ben Masada
October 29th, 2015, 01:04 PM
How is it that you, an unbeliever in Jesus Christ, hence somebody who doesn't get Christianity, think to comment on Christian theology? This is like saying, "I don't understand any of it, but here's what it means." Add to that you reject the mountain of prophecy in the Old Testament, with Christ stamped all over the pages. Is there any reason a Christian should expect a profitable conversation from somebody who rejects the very faith? Seems to me you're just trolling Christians, frankly.

1 Corinthians 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

And you continue in your err for ignoring reality. You ask me how a non-Christian can comment on Christianity and bla,bla,bla. Interesting to notice I have almost the same question to you. How can a non-Jew pick up a Jew to promote Christianity when Jesus never had any thing at all to do with Christianity? He never even dreamed that Christianity would ever rise. Can you answer my question? If you enjoy the freedom to do so, how is it that you refuse to acknowledge the same freedom to me as Christianity is concern? It seems to me you are trolling Jesus.

Bradley D
October 29th, 2015, 11:41 PM
Wherever Enoch is, or Moses and Elijah, they can not be where Jesus is--- yet

1Ti 6:14 That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukeable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ:
1Ti 6:15 Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;
1Ti 6:16 Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.

LA

Where is the crucified criminal?

"Jesus answered him, "Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise" (Luke 23:43).

chrysostom
October 30th, 2015, 04:59 AM
Yes they all went to Sheol or Hades.
Sheol had three compartments.

Paradise where the saved went (where Jesus went to loose them and bring them to heaven)

Tartarus where some fallen angels are held

Hades where the unbelievers still go

where do you get this stuff?

54 Bible results for “hell.”

0 Bible results for “hades.”

0 Bible results for “sheol.”

jamie
October 30th, 2015, 07:33 AM
Where is the crucified criminal?

"Jesus answered him, "Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise" (Luke 23:43).



...but exhort one another daily, while it is called “Today,” lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.
(Hebrews 3:13 NKJV)

For He is our God, and we are the people of His pasture, and the sheep of His hand. Today, if you will hear His voice do not harden your hearts, as in the rebellion, as in the day of trial in the wilderness...
(Psalm 95:7-8 NKJV)

So I swore in My wrath, "They shall not enter My rest." (Psalm 95:11 NKJV)

Therefore, as the Holy Spirit says: "Today, if you will hear His voice Do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion in the day of trial in the wilderness..." (Hebrews 3:7-8 NKJV)

Today is referring to this age. God's rest is the age to come.

Bradley D
October 30th, 2015, 09:59 PM
...but exhort one another daily, while it is called “Today,” lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.
(Hebrews 3:13 NKJV)

For He is our God, and we are the people of His pasture, and the sheep of His hand. Today, if you will hear His voice do not harden your hearts, as in the rebellion, as in the day of trial in the wilderness...
(Psalm 95:7-8 NKJV)

So I swore in My wrath, "They shall not enter My rest." (Psalm 95:11 NKJV)

Therefore, as the Holy Spirit says: "Today, if you will hear His voice Do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion in the day of trial in the wilderness..." (Hebrews 3:7-8 NKJV)

Today is referring to this age. God's rest is the age to come.

The Greek word sémeron means today, now. The same word is used in Hebrews 3:7. Do not wait till tomorrow to believe, tomorrow may be too late.

jamie
October 30th, 2015, 11:22 PM
The Greek word sémeron means today, now.


It didn't mean now to Jesus. His spirit returned to God and his body was entombed for three days and three nights.

George Affleck
October 30th, 2015, 11:54 PM
One thing I have never been able to understand about Christianity is what happened to all those born before Jesus . If God sent Jesus to "redeem " mankind 2,000 years ago , why did he do this at that particular time ?
There had already been countless people on earth who lived and died . But what happened to them ? Did they go a a place called hell, one which many Non-Christians, including myself , don't even believe in ? It wasn't their fault they were born before Jesus .

God is not restricted by linear time like we are. Abraham believed God and it was counted to him for righteousness.

In my finite wisdom it helps me to think of it this way:

We all die at the same instants. (No spelling mistake)

George Affleck
October 30th, 2015, 11:59 PM
Nice try Jamie but, no offense meant, there is not a single translation of the NT with your sweet addition of "little dogs". What Jesus said was that he would not take of the bread of the children and throw it unto the dogs. Not little dogs. And as the Canaanite woman acknowledge her condition of dog, and not "little dog", Jesus cured her daughter. But hey, as I said, your intention was sweet.

Jubillee Bible 2000 "But he answered and said, It is not good to take the children's bread and to cast it to the little dogs."

intojoy
October 31st, 2015, 12:06 AM
where do you get this stuff?



54 Bible results for “hell.”



0 Bible results for “hades.”



0 Bible results for “sheol.”


If I tell you I have to eliminate you. Don't worry about where I get it, just take it.

chrysostom
October 31st, 2015, 06:28 AM
If I tell you I have to eliminate you. Don't worry about where I get it, just take it.

I am not worried about you are your stuff

just wanted to give you a chance to back up your stuff

Timotheos
October 31st, 2015, 06:37 AM
If I tell you I have to eliminate you. Don't worry about where I get it, just take it.

Can you tell where you got "Sheol had three compartments"? I don't recall reading this in the Bible. Is this something your church teaches?

intojoy
October 31st, 2015, 08:16 PM
I am not worried about you are your stuff



just wanted to give you a chance to back up your stuff


Ok god thanks

intojoy
October 31st, 2015, 08:17 PM
Can you tell where you got "Sheol had three compartments"? I don't recall reading this in the Bible. Is this something your church teaches?


I don't see timotheos in the bible, wth?

Timotheos
November 1st, 2015, 05:19 AM
I don't see timotheos in the bible, wth?

You would, if you read the New Testament in Greek, as I do.
There are 12 occurrences of the name Timotheos in the nominative form.

But what does my username have to do with whether Sheol has three compartments? Anyway, can you tell where you got "Sheol had three compartments"? It's okay if you just believe this because your elders told you it was true. I don't want to stand between you and your church's elders. I like to know the reasons why what I believe is true, but that's just me.

chrysostom
November 1st, 2015, 05:39 AM
I like to know the reasons why what I believe is true, but that's just me.

and me

Timotheos
November 1st, 2015, 05:44 AM
and me

Yes, I know that's true.

jon machtemes
November 1st, 2015, 06:38 AM
First, I apologize for no paragraph spacing. My pc went kablooey a couple weeks ago and I am operating from a Kindle for now and forget things like proper paragraph spacing when amidst the passion of writing about the Lord and His Word.

Don't hold me to indents.

Its amazing the passion people have for this subject because it goes to the heart of God's justice, mercy, goodness, and character. Maybe its a mistake if we look at the issues concerning hell with the thought in mind of what God has a right to do. God has the right to do pretty much anything. He is creator, we are creature. So I think that is well established. The Bible addresses God's rights in contrast to His actions of mercy, love, patience, kindness, faithfulness, and goodness. What of the Son alone as preached in Philippians 2, "Have this in your mind, which was also in Christ Jesus, 6who, existing in the form of God, didn't consider equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7but emptied himself, taking the form of a servant, being made in the likeness of men. 8And being found in human form, he humbled himself, becoming obedient to death, yes, the death of the cross. 9Therefore God also highly exalted him, and gave to him the name which is above every name; 10that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, those on earth, and those under the earth, 11and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.". This illustrates the contrast between God's rights and His actions.

I said that to say this: Does God have the right to punish forever in tormentuous flame? The thing is...He does. He reserves the right as creator, life giver, and law giver to set the extent of punishment for crimes. My dad once said a macabre thing, "If God chose to make us vomit out all out insides each day and lick them up over and iver just to do it over again, He would have the right." Kind of sick, yes. He was trying to illustrate a point...that we don't set the rules, nor make the judgements of morality: ultimately this must come from Him.

Our joy is in His revealed goodness. He defines goodness by Himself and He is most good! The doctrine of "hell", whether you believe in conditional immortality, as I do, or traditional universal immortality, as I once did, no one may claim that God is unjust. You and I simply don't have the right to judge Him. If we believe His Word and confirm our state as rebels we understand whatever justice and punishment He deals out to be just. Thank God for His mercy in Christ Jesus towards us sinners!

The question though is not of rights, but of what He has revealed to us in His Word as His justice. We must also trust in His goodness, kindness, and patience towards all men as we have experienced this for ourselves. Let Him work out the things we cannot understand, trusting He is so very merciful.

I will point this out. This is explicit. 1 Peter 3:18, "Because Christ also suffered for sins once, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring you to God; being put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit". What are the wages of sin? What is the gift of God? When Adam and Eve sinned they died. Are we so callous to death as to not see its significance. Are you alive now? Are you thankful? Is the grave natural? Because the fire of God's judgement is called "eternal" does this mean the punishment goes on forever or that it is eternally set?

I am pressed for time so I will have to pose a question to think about. God is good, just, and merciful. Do temporal sins neccesarily require eternal torment? If the Word said this explicitly I would have to concede, but does it? God bless you all. Good day.

jamie
November 1st, 2015, 09:01 AM
When Adam and Eve sinned they died.


But only for awhile.

Timotheos
November 1st, 2015, 10:05 AM
I am pressed for time so I will have to pose a question to think about. God is good, just, and merciful. Do temporal sins neccesarily require eternal torment? If the Word said this explicitly I would have to concede, but does it? God bless you all. Good day.

While you are thinking about this, think about what the Bible has to say. I'm sure that you will.

Do sins require eternal torment? What does the Bible say?
Romans 6:23 "For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord". So according to the Bible, Our sins do not require eternal torment, they require death. But if anyone thinks I have taken Romans 6:23 out of context, let me ask them a question. Is there any verse in the Bible that says that our sins require eternal torment as payment? If so, which verse?

It doesn't matter to this issue what God is "allowed" to do. What matters is what the Bible says that God "will" do.

way 2 go
November 1st, 2015, 11:33 AM
One thing I have never been able to understand about Christianity is what happened to all those born before Jesus . If God sent Jesus to "redeem " mankind 2,000 years ago , why did he do this at that particular time ?
There had already been countless people on earth who lived and died . But what happened to them ? Did they go a a place called hell, one which many Non-Christians, including myself , don't even believe in ? It wasn't their fault they were born before Jesus .
All except a few went to Abraham's side

Luk 16:22 The poor man died and was carried by the angels to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried,
Luk 16:23 and in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham far off and Lazarus at his side.

Luk 16:26 And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, in order that those who would pass from here to you may not be able, and none may cross from there to us.'

and the direction is down not up

1Sa 28:15 Then Samuel said to Saul, "Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up?"
Eph 4:9 (In saying, "He ascended," what does it mean but that he had also descended into the lower regions, the earth?

KingdomRose
November 1st, 2015, 04:31 PM
One thing I have never been able to understand about Christianity is what happened to all those born before Jesus . If God sent Jesus to "redeem " mankind 2,000 years ago , why did he do this at that particular time ?
There had already been countless people on earth who lived and died . But what happened to them ? Did they go a a place called hell, one which many Non-Christians, including myself , don't even believe in ? It wasn't their fault they were born before Jesus .

That's right, it wasn't their fault, and God doesn't punish people for what they don't know! My old church (Southern Baptist) used to say that they get no second chance. Imagine!

This is what I have learned that happened to everyone who has died: they go to the O.T. "Sheol," or, as the New Testament translates it, "Hades." This means "the realm of the dead," and that is simply THE GRAVE. Most Bible versions render "Hades" as "Hell." It does not mean a place of fiery torture. I am a Christian and I don't believe in a fiery hell.

When Jesus gets ready to resurrect the dead, they will all come out (John 5:28)...they will stand up again, in physical bodies. Then they will be taught what they didn't have the chance to learn during their former lives on the earth. This will take place during Christ's Thousand-Year Reign over the earth.

jamie
November 1st, 2015, 05:16 PM
All except a few went to Abraham's side

Luk 16:22 The poor man died and was carried by the angels to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried,
Luk 16:23 and in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham far off and Lazarus at his side.


This is a parable of the Jews and the Gentiles. The Jews had Moses and the prophets.


Abraham said to him, "They have Moses and the prophets, let them hear them." (Luke 16:29 NKJV)