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Robert Pate
October 23rd, 2015, 05:14 PM
REPROBATE: 1. Having lost all sense of duty; depraved. 2. Abandoned to punishment; condemned.

Scriptures concerning reprobates

"Reprobate silver shall men call them, because the Lord has rejected them" Jeremiah 6:30.

"And even as they did not retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient" Romans 1:28.

"Now as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, reprobate concerning the truth" 2 Timothy 3:8.

"They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate" Titus 1:16.

"Examine yourselves, whether you are in the faith; prove yourselves, Know you not your selves how that Jesus Christ is in you, except you be reprobates" 2 Corinthians 13:5.

"But I trust that you shall know that we are not reprobates" 2 Corinthians 13:6.

"Now I pray to God that you do no evil; not that we should appear approved, but that you should do that which is honest, though we be as reprobates" 2 Corinthians 13:7.

Statement from the "Canons of Dort" concerning reprobation. First Head article #15.

"Whom God out of his sovereign most just irreprehensible and unchangeable good pleasure, has decreed them to live in the common misery into which they have willfully plunged themselves, and not bestow upon them saving faith and the grace of conversion, but permitting them in his just judgment to follow their own ways, at last, for the declaration of his justice, to condemn and punish them forever, not only on account of their unbelief but also for all of their other sins. And this is the decree of reprobation."

All that are born after Adam are sinners, Romans 5:12. We do not become sinners, we are born sinners, Psalm 51:5. It is not really our fault that we are sinners, its Adam and Eves fault. Sin is the natural condition of the fallen man. He is born a sinner and he dies a sinner.

In a very real sense we are all born as reprobates. Somewhere in our life some of us come to the reality that we are lost sinners in need of a savior. But not all.

God has not forsaken humanity as some are led to believe. Since the creation of the earth God's Spirit is in the world calling all to come to Christ and be saved, Hebrews 3:15. The call is often in the Gospel. On the day of Pentecost, they heard the Gospel, they believed the Gospel and thousands came to know Christ as their savior, Acts 2:41 also Acts 4:4. "Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God" Romans 10:17.

Does God create reprobates?

Of course not. That is not the nature and the character of God. Why would a God that gives his only begotten Son for the sins of the world, create a person for the sole purpose of sending him to hell?

You might be better off to believe in no God at all than to blasphemy him and his Son Jesus Christ with this false, unproven doctrine.

Men become reprobates by rejecting Christ and his Gospel. Many are religious reprobates. After awhile the Holy Spirit gives up on them and they become reprobates.

Lazy afternoon
October 23rd, 2015, 05:35 PM
REPROBATE: 1. Having lost all sense of duty; depraved. 2. Abandoned to punishment; condemned.

Scriptures concerning reprobates

"Reprobate silver shall men call them, because the Lord has rejected them" Jeremiah 6:30.

"And even as they did not retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient" Romans 1:28.

"Now as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, reprobate concerning the truth" 2 Timothy 3:8.

"They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate" Titus 1:16.

"Examine yourselves, whether you are in the faith; prove yourselves, Know you not your selves how that Jesus Christ is in you, except you be reprobates" 2 Corinthians 13:5.

"But I trust that you shall know that we are not reprobates" 2 Corinthians 13:6.

"Now I pray to God that you do no evil; not that we should appear approved, but that you should do that which is honest, though we be as reprobates" 2 Corinthians 13:7.

Statement from the "Canons of Dort" concerning reprobation. First Head article #15.

"Whom God out of his sovereign most just irreprehensible and unchangeable good pleasure, has decreed them to live in the common misery into which they have willfully plunged themselves, and not bestow upon them saving faith and the grace of conversion, but permitting them in his just judgment to follow their own ways, at last, for the declaration of his justice, to condemn and punish them forever, not only on account of their unbelief but also for all of their other sins. And this is the decree of reprobation."

All that are born after Adam are sinners, Romans 5:12. We do not become sinners, we are born sinners, Psalm 51:5. It is not really our fault that we are sinners, its Adam and Eves fault. Sin is the natural condition of the fallen man. He is born a sinner and he dies a sinner.

In a very real sense we are all born as reprobates. Somewhere in our life some of us come to the reality that we are lost sinners in need of a savior. But not all.

God has not forsaken humanity as some are led to believe. Since the creation of the earth God's Spirit is in the world calling all to come to Christ and be saved, Hebrews 3:15. The call is often in the Gospel. On the day of Pentecost, they heard the Gospel, they believed the Gospel and thousands came to know Christ as their savior, Acts 2:41 also Acts 4:4. "Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God" Romans 10:17.

Does God create reprobates?

Of course not. That is not the nature and the character of God. Why would a God that gives his only begotten Son for the sins of the world, create a person for the sole purpose of sending him to hell?

You might be better off to believe in no God at all than to blasphemy him and his Son Jesus Christ with this false, unproven doctrine.

Men become reprobates by rejecting Christ and his Gospel. Many are religious reprobates. After awhile the Holy Spirit gives up on them and they become reprobates.

From whence cometh anti-Christs.

2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
2Th 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
2Th 2:5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
2Th 2:6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
2Th 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
2Th 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
2Th 2:9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
2Th 2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
2Th 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
2Th 2:12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

LA

LA

fishrovmen
October 23rd, 2015, 05:40 PM
James covers that in his....oh, I almost forgot...you don't think too highly of him.

musterion
October 23rd, 2015, 05:47 PM
If He is in 100% absolute control over every atom in existence and nothing any atom does occurs without His foreordained decree, then He had to create them.

If there is no such thing as free will, then their opposition and unbelief must be His will for them, meaning He had to create them.

Nanja
October 23rd, 2015, 06:03 PM
REPROBATE: 1. Having lost all sense of duty; depraved. 2. Abandoned to punishment; condemned.

Scriptures concerning reprobates

"Reprobate silver shall men call them, because the Lord has rejected them" Jeremiah 6:30.

"And even as they did not retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient" Romans 1:28.

"Now as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, reprobate concerning the truth" 2 Timothy 3:8.

"They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate" Titus 1:16.

"Examine yourselves, whether you are in the faith; prove yourselves, Know you not your selves how that Jesus Christ is in you, except you be reprobates" 2 Corinthians 13:5.

"But I trust that you shall know that we are not reprobates" 2 Corinthians 13:6.

"Now I pray to God that you do no evil; not that we should appear approved, but that you should do that which is honest, though we be as reprobates" 2 Corinthians 13:7.

Statement from the "Canons of Dort" concerning reprobation. First Head article #15.

"Whom God out of his sovereign most just irreprehensible and unchangeable good pleasure, has decreed them to live in the common misery into which they have willfully plunged themselves, and not bestow upon them saving faith and the grace of conversion, but permitting them in his just judgment to follow their own ways, at last, for the declaration of his justice, to condemn and punish them forever, not only on account of their unbelief but also for all of their other sins. And this is the decree of reprobation."

All that are born after Adam are sinners, Romans 5:12. We do not become sinners, we are born sinners, Psalm 51:5. It is not really our fault that we are sinners, its Adam and Eves fault. Sin is the natural condition of the fallen man. He is born a sinner and he dies a sinner.

In a very real sense we are all born as reprobates. Somewhere in our life some of us come to the reality that we are lost sinners in need of a savior. But not all.

God has not forsaken humanity as some are led to believe. Since the creation of the earth God's Spirit is in the world calling all to come to Christ and be saved, Hebrews 3:15. The call is often in the Gospel. On the day of Pentecost, they heard the Gospel, they believed the Gospel and thousands came to know Christ as their savior, Acts 2:41 also Acts 4:4. "Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God" Romans 10:17.

Does God create reprobates?

Of course not. That is not the nature and the character of God. Why would a God that gives his only begotten Son for the sins of the world, create a person for the sole purpose of sending him to hell?

You might be better off to believe in no God at all than to blasphemy him and his Son Jesus Christ with this false, unproven doctrine.

Men become reprobates by rejecting Christ and his Gospel. Many are religious reprobates. After awhile the Holy Spirit gives up on them and they become reprobates.


"Grasping at straws"
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/grasping+at+straws


You have no understanding of the scriptures.


The reprobates are the tares spoken of in Mat. 13:38-42.
And the Vessels of Wrath in Rom. 9:22.
Men ordained to be condemned Jude 1:4
They profess they know God, but are a false witness Titus 1:16
They are the seed of the serpent John 8:44; Mat. 23:33
They are the seed of the wicked Ps. 37:28 KJV; Mat. 13:38
The ungodly 2 Pet. 3:7


Dan. 4:35
And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing:
and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven,
and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand,
or say unto him, What doest thou?

~~~~~

way 2 go
October 23rd, 2015, 06:43 PM
REPROBATE: 1. Having lost all sense of duty; depraved. 2. Abandoned to punishment; condemned.


Does God create reprobates?

Of course not.

Of course not

Jer 32:35 They built the high places of Baal in the Valley of the Son of Hinnom, to offer up their sons and daughters to Molech, though I did not command them, nor did it enter into my mind, that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin.

Ask Mr. Religion
October 23rd, 2015, 06:57 PM
Statement from the "Canons of Dort" concerning reprobation. First Head article #15.

"Whom God out of his sovereign most just irreprehensible and unchangeable good pleasure, has decreed them to live in the common misery into which they have willfully plunged themselves, and not bestow upon them saving faith and the grace of conversion, but permitting them in his just judgment to follow their own ways, at last, for the declaration of his justice, to condemn and punish them forever, not only on account of their unbelief but also for all of their other sins. And this is the decree of reprobation."


The point from the above illustrates the infralapsarian view of theodicy when considering the logical order of God's decree:

1. The creation of man;
2. Permission of the fall, with the ruin of all posterity;
3. Election to salvation of certain ones from the fallen human race, and the leaving of others in their native corruption and misery;
4. The sending of Christ into the world as the Mediator and surety of the elect;
5. Effectual calling of the elect, justification, sanctification, and glorification.

Hence, the "lump of clay" was a lump of a fallen mass of humanity.

AMR

patrick jane
October 23rd, 2015, 06:58 PM
Dort ain't no good.

Ask Mr. Religion
October 23rd, 2015, 07:04 PM
Dort ain't no good.

By all means, take a shot a crafting your own version of the logical ordering of the decree. Exactly what logical steps do you think God went about when creating?

AMR

daqq
October 23rd, 2015, 07:53 PM
The point from the above illustrates the infralapsarian view of theodicy when considering the logical order of God's decree:

1. The creation of man;
2. Permission of the fall, with the ruin of all posterity;
3. Election to salvation of certain ones from the fallen human race, and the leaving of others in their native corruption and misery;
4. The sending of Christ into the world as the Mediator and surety of the elect;
5. Effectual calling of the elect, justification, sanctification, and glorification.

Hence, the "lump of clay" was a lump of a fallen mass of humanity.

AMR

Every individual man is a lump of clay. You therefore have an "Esau man", (the "old man" nature which is a vessel of spirit fitted for destruction, and as someone else here stated, likened unto tares among the wheat) but in Messiah you now have also a second vessel of spirit set for honor, that is, after you have proven yourself and endured unto "the end" as Messiah says in Matthew 24:13, (a day which no man knows, but the Father only, that is, The Potter Himself).

beloved57
October 23rd, 2015, 09:44 PM
Does God Create Reprobates?

Yes, to damn them for their sins, they are made Vessels of Wrath and their lives are lived being fitted for destruction, according to Gods Purpose Rom 9:21-22

21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

beloved57
October 23rd, 2015, 09:48 PM
"Grasping at straws"
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/grasping+at+straws


You have no understanding of the scriptures.


The reprobates are the tares spoken of in Mat. 13:38-42.
And the Vessels of Wrath in Rom. 9:22.
Men ordained to be condemned Jude 1:4
They profess they know God, but are a false witness Titus 1:16
They are the seed of the serpent John 8:44; Mat. 23:33
They are the seed of the wicked Ps. 37:28 KJV; Mat. 13:38
The ungodly 2 Pet. 3:7


Dan. 4:35
And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing:
and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven,
and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand,
or say unto him, What doest thou?

~~~~~

You have spoken that which is Right !

intojoy
October 23rd, 2015, 10:08 PM
REPROBATE: 1. Having lost all sense of duty; depraved. 2. Abandoned to punishment; condemned.

Scriptures concerning reprobates

"Reprobate silver shall men call them, because the Lord has rejected them" Jeremiah 6:30.

"And even as they did not retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient" Romans 1:28.

"Now as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, reprobate concerning the truth" 2 Timothy 3:8.

"They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate" Titus 1:16.

"Examine yourselves, whether you are in the faith; prove yourselves, Know you not your selves how that Jesus Christ is in you, except you be reprobates" 2 Corinthians 13:5.

"But I trust that you shall know that we are not reprobates" 2 Corinthians 13:6.

"Now I pray to God that you do no evil; not that we should appear approved, but that you should do that which is honest, though we be as reprobates" 2 Corinthians 13:7.

Statement from the "Canons of Dort" concerning reprobation. First Head article #15.

"Whom God out of his sovereign most just irreprehensible and unchangeable good pleasure, has decreed them to live in the common misery into which they have willfully plunged themselves, and not bestow upon them saving faith and the grace of conversion, but permitting them in his just judgment to follow their own ways, at last, for the declaration of his justice, to condemn and punish them forever, not only on account of their unbelief but also for all of their other sins. And this is the decree of reprobation."

All that are born after Adam are sinners, Romans 5:12. We do not become sinners, we are born sinners, Psalm 51:5. It is not really our fault that we are sinners, its Adam and Eves fault. Sin is the natural condition of the fallen man. He is born a sinner and he dies a sinner.

In a very real sense we are all born as reprobates. Somewhere in our life some of us come to the reality that we are lost sinners in need of a savior. But not all.

God has not forsaken humanity as some are led to believe. Since the creation of the earth God's Spirit is in the world calling all to come to Christ and be saved, Hebrews 3:15. The call is often in the Gospel. On the day of Pentecost, they heard the Gospel, they believed the Gospel and thousands came to know Christ as their savior, Acts 2:41 also Acts 4:4. "Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God" Romans 10:17.

Does God create reprobates?

Of course not. That is not the nature and the character of God. Why would a God that gives his only begotten Son for the sins of the world, create a person for the sole purpose of sending him to hell?

You might be better off to believe in no God at all than to blasphemy him and his Son Jesus Christ with this false, unproven doctrine.

Men become reprobates by rejecting Christ and his Gospel. Many are religious reprobates. After awhile the Holy Spirit gives up on them and they become reprobates.

He created you didn't He?

Arthur Brain
October 23rd, 2015, 10:11 PM
By all means, take a shot a crafting your own version of the logical ordering of the decree. Exactly what logical steps do you think God went about when creating?

AMR

Um, well if there's a loving God behind everything then how about not creating life whereby eternal suffering was a given from the get go regardless? You cannot intellectualize the abject horror of other people's torment no matter what you believe.

intojoy
October 23rd, 2015, 10:11 PM
If He is in 100% absolute control over every atom in existence and nothing any atom does occurs without His foreordained decree, then He had to create them.

If there is no such thing as free will, then their opposition and unbelief must be His will for them, meaning He had to create them.

That's speculation. The scriptures teach that man is born after Adam in Adam's likeness therefore unlike Adam who God spoke into existence we are born dead to God.

intojoy
October 23rd, 2015, 10:13 PM
Um, well if there's a loving God behind everything then how about not creating life whereby eternal suffering was a given from the get go regardless? You cannot intellectualize the abject horror of other people's torment no matter what you believe.

And who are you but a mere created being? Judging from a created being's viewpoint based in human emotion?

That's a question not a statement.

Arthur Brain
October 23rd, 2015, 10:19 PM
And who are you but a mere created being? Judging from a created being's viewpoint based in human emotion?

That's a question not a statement.

Try asking me that if you were being tormented and begging for help, cos if you were suffering interminably that's what you'd be crying out for just like anyone else, and therein lies your answer. FTR if I could I'd actually stop the pain.

Nick M
October 23rd, 2015, 10:32 PM
Um, well if there's a loving God behind everything then how about not creating life whereby eternal suffering was a given from the get go regardless? You cannot intellectualize the abject horror of other people's torment no matter what you believe.

It's a rare day when red77 is on the side of right. Unless he is twice a day. :think:

Well done.

glorydaz
October 23rd, 2015, 10:36 PM
That's speculation. The scriptures teach that man is born after Adam in Adam's likeness therefore unlike Adam who God spoke into existence we are born dead to God.

That's speculation.

Arthur Brain
October 23rd, 2015, 10:39 PM
It's a rare day when red77 is on the side of right. Unless he is twice a day. :think:

Well done.

Well, as much as I appreciate a ringing endorsement from your good self my comment didn't just apply to Calvinists if you'd read it properly.

Ask Mr. Religion
October 23rd, 2015, 10:57 PM
Um, well if there's a loving God behind everything then how about not creating life whereby eternal suffering was a given from the get go regardless? You cannot intellectualize the abject horror of other people's torment no matter what you believe.
Then lay out the logical steps that you think comport with reality around us. What do they look like?

AMR

Arthur Brain
October 23rd, 2015, 11:03 PM
Then lay out the logical steps. What do they look like?

AMR

A loving God wouldn't create a world whereby the majority of creation would be lost due to set parameters that would render such inevitable.

Ask Mr. Religion
October 23rd, 2015, 11:23 PM
A loving God wouldn't create a world whereby the majority of creation would be lost due to set parameters that would render such inevitable.

You are being evasive. Please formulate the logical steps behind God's creative act you think accurately describe the present state of affairs around us. If you cannot offer a reasonably logical theodicy all you are doing is ruminating aloud.

BTW, no Calvinist or Reformed believer holds that the majority of creation is ultimately lost. Rather the properly instructed Reformed or Calvinst (or any other believer) should be in alignment with the following:

http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showthread.php?p=4485652#post4485652

AMR

Bradley D
October 23rd, 2015, 11:27 PM
"Reprobate" in Greek adokimos means "failing to pass the test." Which everyone does. It is only by the grace of God and Jesus' ultimate sacrifice that I am saved today. All have the sin of Adam "pride" "...you will be like God, knowing good and evil" (Gen. 3:5). The secular world is in a sate of confusion believing the good is evil and evil good. Till one becomes desperate and turns all over to God. They will not be of the "few."

"Furthermore, just as they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, so God gave them over to a depraved mind, so that they do what ought not to be done" (Romans 1:28).

Arthur Brain
October 23rd, 2015, 11:44 PM
You are being evasive. Please formulate the logical steps behind God's creative act you think accurately describe the present state of affairs around us. If you cannot offer a reasonably logical theodicy all you are doing is ruminating aloud.

BTW, no Calvinist or Reformed believer holds that the majority of creation is ultimately lost. Rather the properly instructed Reformed or Calvinst (or any other believer) should be in alignment with the following:

http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showthread.php?p=4485652#post4485652

AMR

Well, if you'll indulge with me for taking issue I don't consider I was being particularly evasive if at all in fact. As much as you may link to one of your own posts in regards to what others "should think" as a 'reformed believer' then there's a myriad who don't - and just within the umbrella term of Calvinist. Most in my experience don't 'align' with your parameters as set out as surprising as they were. To be fair there's nothing new there as that's the case across the board with any denomination yes?

You'll be a 'heretic' to other Calvinists to some degree so go figure.

On the other hand I can simply state this: There's no logical reason for people to helplessly suffer in some non ending preordained state of torment that's been set up from the outset of creation regardless of 'the elect' or anyone else. Any person with a single ounce of empathy would rail against any doctrine that essentially intellectualizes the cause for another's horrid pain.

Ask Mr. Religion
October 23rd, 2015, 11:52 PM
In that case, thanks for stopping by. :wave:

AMR

Arthur Brain
October 24th, 2015, 12:00 AM
In that case, thanks for stopping by. :wave:

AMR

Oh, that's it is it? Maybe you should have been a bit more specific about what you meant by 'the state of affairs around us' if I was missing something exactly...

:Plain:

Ask Mr. Religion
October 24th, 2015, 12:21 AM
Please enumerate the steps, 1, 2, 3....n that you view as the logical thought process used by God when creating the universe. The world now exists. So steps that are but fanciful flights of imagination about what God could have done versus what is actually now present are irrelevant. The steps should reflect a connection to the current state of affairs.

As an example, taking an infralapsarian view, see my earlier:
http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showthread.php?p=4495576#post4495576

For example, a Molinist would likely proffer something along the lines:

1: God’s natural knowledge of everything that could be
2: God’s middle knowledge of everything that would be
3. God's Divine Decree Here based upon something from 1 and 2 above
4: God’s free knowledge of everything that will happen in the actual world

After all, the OP deals with the decree and takes a view begging the question of what the logical steps taken when creating God took in support of the OP's odd view. If one is going to cavil about something one should be able to think it through and offer up a position for examination. Of course, Robert Pate resists any challenge to dig a wee bit deeper, hence my original response. Given you have an opinion, I am only asking to see it fleshed out in an orderly fashion.

AMR

intojoy
October 24th, 2015, 01:03 AM
Try asking me that if you were being tormented and begging for help, cos if you were suffering interminably that's what you'd be crying out for just like anyone else, and therein lies your answer. FTR if I could I'd actually stop the pain.


So your agreeing with my deduction of your feelings.

musterion
October 24th, 2015, 06:27 AM
BTW, no Calvinist or Reformed believer holds that the majority of creation is ultimately lost.

Creation generally, or mankind specifically?

musterion
October 24th, 2015, 06:33 AM
That's speculation. The scriptures teach that man is born after Adam in Adam's likeness therefore unlike Adam who God spoke into existence we are born dead to God.

Then it's astounding that a God who isn't retarded, insane or lying would still expect faith from those He knows are so literally "dead in sin" that they cannot possibly believe what He wants them to believe unless He first enables them to believe it...yet elected many of them to not be able to believe Him anyway.

We do not have the same god.

Robert Pate
October 24th, 2015, 09:46 AM
Some years ago Vernon McGee had a church in downtown Los Angeles called "The Church of the Open Door". My wife attended that church when she was just a young girl. I always thought that was a strange name for a church. But after I started reading the Bible I understood what it meant.

Jesus said, "Behold, I stand at the door and knock: if any man hears my voice and opens the door, I will come into him and will sup with him and he with me" Revelation 3:20.

And then again Jesus said, "I have set before you an open door and no man can shut it" Revelation 3:8.

After reading this I understood why Vernon named his church "The Church of the Open Door".

Salvation is like an open door. We hear the Gospel, We believe the Gospel and we enter in. We enter into his rest, Hebrews 4:10.

God said to the Israelites, "I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore chose life, that both you and your seed may live" Deuteronomy 3:19.

To be saved, we must chose life and enter into the open door.

beloved57
October 24th, 2015, 10:29 AM
Some years ago Vernon McGee had a church in downtown Los Angeles called "The Church of the Open Door". My wife attended that church when she was just a young girl. I always thought that was a strange name for a church. But after I started reading the Bible I understood what it meant.

Jesus said, "Behold, I stand at the door and knock: if any man hears my voice and opens the door, I will come into him and will sup with him and he with me" Revelation 3:20.

And then again Jesus said, "I have set before you an open door and no man can shut it" Revelation 3:8.

After reading this I understood why Vernon named his church "The Church of the Open Door".

Salvation is like an open door. We hear the Gospel, We believe the Gospel and we enter in. We enter into his rest, Hebrews 4:10.

God said to the Israelites, "I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore chose life, that both you and your seed may live" Deuteronomy 3:19.

To be saved, we must chose life and enter into the open door.

False teaching, those Christ lived and died for are reconciled to God while they are enemies and unbelievers! They don't have to do anything, Christ did it all for them!They have perfectly obeyed Gods Law and are Righteous, while they themselves are ungodly sinners!

glorydaz
October 24th, 2015, 11:25 AM
Then it's astounding that a God who isn't retarded, insane or lying would still expect faith from those He knows are so literally "dead in sin" that they cannot possibly believe what He wants them to believe unless He first enables them to believe it...yet elected many of them to not be able to believe Him anyway.

We do not have the same god.

Yep. :thumb:

glorydaz
October 24th, 2015, 11:33 AM
Some years ago Vernon McGee had a church in downtown Los Angeles called "The Church of the Open Door". My wife attended that church when she was just a young girl. I always thought that was a strange name for a church. But after I started reading the Bible I understood what it meant.

Jesus said, "Behold, I stand at the door and knock: if any man hears my voice and opens the door, I will come into him and will sup with him and he with me" Revelation 3:20.

And then again Jesus said, "I have set before you an open door and no man can shut it" Revelation 3:8.

After reading this I understood why Vernon named his church "The Church of the Open Door".

Salvation is like an open door. We hear the Gospel, We believe the Gospel and we enter in. We enter into his rest, Hebrews 4:10.

God said to the Israelites, "I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore chose life, that both you and your seed may live" Deuteronomy 3:19.

To be saved, we must chose life and enter into the open door.

It also fits the idea of the open prison door. Man is locked in a prison of sin....sentenced to death. Christ opened the door by His death on the cross. Some still sit in a prison cell with an open door, not believing they are free.

Totton Linnet
October 24th, 2015, 11:42 AM
Did Lazarus co-operate with Christ? did he "decide of his own freewill" to be raised from the dead?...choose?....did he have faith?

Christ COMMANDED him to come forth


Who does He think He is? doesn't He know He must respect Lazarus free will? after all Lazarus is not a robot.

When the gospel comes to us God COMMANDS us to repent [no matter what the preacher is saying....God commands]

He commands the light of the glorious gospel to shine in our hearts, He commands us to believe.

And He doesn't even say "please"

Tambora
October 24th, 2015, 11:43 AM
It also fits the idea of the open prison door. Man is locked in a prison of sin....sentenced to death. Christ opened the door by His death on the cross. Some still sit in a prison cell with an open door, not believing they are free.Yep.
They live as though they have a debt to pay, when Christ already paid the debt.

jamie
October 24th, 2015, 11:45 AM
We enter into his rest, Hebrews 4:10.


Yes, there remains a Sabbath for God's people.


There remains therefore a rest (sabbatismos) for the people of God. (Hebrews 4:9 NKJV)

OCTOBER23
October 24th, 2015, 11:46 AM
ROBERT PATE' said,

Does God Create Reprobates?
-------------------------------------
NOT APPROVED WHICH MEANS THAT YOU HAVE TO BE APPROVED

BEFORE YOU MAY ENTER GOD'S KINGDOM.

-WHICH MEANS YOU HAVE TO OVERCOME YOURSELF BEFORE YOU QUALIFY TO ENTER.-


- to reject, refuse
1) not standing the test, not approved
1a) properly used of metals and coins
2) that which does not prove itself such as it ought
2a) unfit for, unproved, spurious, reprobate

Jeremiah 6:30 Reprobate silver shall men call them, because the LORD hath rejected them.
Romans 1:28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
2 Timothy 3:8 Now as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, reprobate concerning the faith.
Titus 1:16 They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.
---------------------------------

steko
October 24th, 2015, 11:48 AM
Then it's astounding that a God who isn't retarded, insane or lying would still expect faith from those He knows are so literally "dead in sin" that they cannot possibly believe what He wants them to believe unless He first enables them to believe it...yet elected many of them to not be able to believe Him anyway.

We do not have the same god.


Yep. :thumb:


It also fits the idea of the open prison door. Man is locked in a prison of sin....sentenced to death. Christ opened the door by His death on the cross. Some still sit in a prison cell with an open door, not believing they are free.


Yep.
They live as though they have a debt to pay, when Christ already paid the debt.

Yep!

beloved57
October 24th, 2015, 11:54 AM
It also fits the idea of the open prison door. Man is locked in a prison of sin....sentenced to death. Christ opened the door by His death on the cross. Some still sit in a prison cell with an open door, not believing they are free.

False teaching, Christ brings them out of the prison house Isa 42:7 !

Grosnick Marowbe
October 24th, 2015, 11:55 AM
ROBERT PATE' said,

Does God Create Reprobates?
-------------------------------------
NOT APPROVED WHICH MEANS THAT YOU HAVE TO BE APPROVED

BEFORE YOU MAY ENTER GOD'S KINGDOM.

-WHICH MEANS YOU HAVE TO OVERCOME YOURSELF BEFORE YOU QUALIFY TO ENTER.-


- to reject, refuse
1) not standing the test, not approved
1a) properly used of metals and coins
2) that which does not prove itself such as it ought
2a) unfit for, unproved, spurious, reprobate

Jeremiah 6:30 Reprobate silver shall men call them, because the LORD hath rejected them.
Romans 1:28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
2 Timothy 3:8 Now as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, reprobate concerning the faith.
Titus 1:16 They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.
---------------------------------

Do you have any of your false "predictions" for today?

intojoy
October 24th, 2015, 11:55 AM
Then it's astounding that a God who isn't retarded, insane or lying would still expect faith from those He knows are so literally "dead in sin" that they cannot possibly believe what He wants them to believe unless He first enables them to believe it...yet elected many of them to not be able to believe Him anyway.

We do not have the same god.

Where does scripture say God elected them not to believe?
It doesn't. That's where we disagree. Scripture says that God allowed the fall to happen and the result was that humanity was condemned. However, God promised to send the Seed of a woman to make it possible, to make all men savable. Yet God has chosen whom He has for Himself. Our proper attitude should be that God's work of election is the outworking of God's love, and we should not question God's character. Sin and death are here because God allowed sin to take place. God did not create sin, God did not predestine those who will die unsaved to hell, He permitted them to be born into a fallen state to which we all were born and which all of us were already condemned.

That can be verified by scripture.

What cannot be verified is the idea of predestining the lost to hell. Just because man can question why some have been passed over by God does not mean men can ignore what scripture says - you have not chosen me but I have chosen you.

glorydaz
October 24th, 2015, 12:15 PM
Did Lazarus co-operate with Christ? did he "decide of his own freewill" to be raised from the dead?...choose?....did he have faith?

Christ COMMANDED him to come forth


Who does He think He is? doesn't He know He must respect Lazarus free will? after all Lazarus is not a robot.

When the gospel comes to us God COMMANDS us to repent [no matter what the preacher is saying....God commands]

He commands the light of the glorious gospel to shine in our hearts, He commands us to believe.

And He doesn't even say "please"

Sure He does.

2 Corinthians 5:20
Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.

Grosnick Marowbe
October 24th, 2015, 12:26 PM
Where does scripture say God elected them not to believe?
It doesn't. That's where we disagree. Scripture says that God allowed the fall to happen and the result was that humanity was condemned. However, God promised to send the Seed of a woman to make it possible, to make all men savable. Yet God has chosen whom He has for Himself. Our proper attitude should be that God's work of election is the outworking of God's love, and we should not question God's character. Sin and death are here because God allowed sin to take place. God did not create sin, God did not predestine those who will die unsaved to hell, He permitted them to be born into a fallen state to which we all were born and which all of us were already condemned.

That can be verified by scripture.

What cannot be verified is the idea of predestining the lost to hell. Just because man can question why some have been passed over by God does not mean men can ignore what scripture says - you have not chosen me but I have chosen you.

So, you consider yourself to be a Calvinist? I knew that you
had a plethora of problems. However, I didn't know you
were a Calvinist as well?

musterion
October 24th, 2015, 01:42 PM
Where does scripture say God elected them not to believe?

Simple. So simple, in fact, that you already know the answer:

Why do those who believe, believe?

Grosnick Marowbe
October 24th, 2015, 02:02 PM
Then it's astounding that a God who isn't retarded, insane or lying would still expect faith from those He knows are so literally "dead in sin" that they cannot possibly believe what He wants them to believe unless He first enables them to believe it...yet elected many of them to not be able to believe Him anyway.

We do not have the same god.

Calvinists change the character and intent of the God
of the Bible in order to make their "false doctrines"
seem reasonable.

Grosnick Marowbe
October 24th, 2015, 02:07 PM
Calvinists belief system blinds them from seeing any free-will choice.

Grosnick Marowbe
October 24th, 2015, 02:10 PM
I believe that Calvinism is an ungodly belief system.

Ask Mr. Religion
October 24th, 2015, 02:11 PM
Creation generally, or mankind specifically?

As I noted in my post, mankind is the operative object.

AMR

Grosnick Marowbe
October 24th, 2015, 02:17 PM
Duplicate

Grosnick Marowbe
October 24th, 2015, 02:20 PM
Christ died and resurrected for all of mankind. Therefore,
Gods Grace is available to anyone who will place their
faith in Christ as their Savior.

Robert Pate
October 24th, 2015, 02:26 PM
Paul could have said,

All are reprobates and come short of the glory of God, Romans 3:23.

Man has fallen and he can't get up. Catholics believe that this fallen man can be re-habilitated through the works of the law. But when the Catholics get through with him he is a bigger sinner than he was before, only now he is a hypocrite as well.

Religious people believe that the solution to man's fallen condition is within himself. If he would just stop lying, cheating and stealing and become a fit vessel he would be accepted. This is the devils lie.

There are more religious reprobates than there are non-religious reprobates. I have more success reaching non-religious people with the Gospel than I do the regular church goers. Why is this? The regular church people are not interested in the Gospel simply because the Gospel is about Christ. They want to hear about what they can do to please a holy God. When you tell them that God is only pleased with Jesus Christ, they tell you goodbye.

nikolai_42
October 24th, 2015, 02:40 PM
Then it's astounding that a God who isn't retarded, insane or lying would still expect faith from those He knows are so literally "dead in sin" that they cannot possibly believe what He wants them to believe unless He first enables them to believe it...yet elected many of them to not be able to believe Him anyway.

We do not have the same god.

In trying to wrap my head around the Sovereignty of God and the will of man, it becomes apparent to me that we are woefully inadequate to the task (naturally speaking).

Musterion - you used the word "expect" in your post. That one term carries with it so much implicit understanding that it winds up being different than, say, if someone had had God "requiring" faith. Expectations imply hope in an uncertain end (Open Theism?) where requirements are (on the part of the Almighty, at least) simply a statement of the standard He has put in place (for whatever reason).

One, therefore, discusses man's actions as the primary thing in view. If God is expecting something, He is waiting for it and now the spotlight is on you to see if you can deliver. Faith as a requirement, however, simply recognizes God as having declared that which we would not otherwise naturally be able to deduce. Faith is a necessity. Why it is is not revealed to us. What it does NOT do, is impute unfairness to God (that expectation may do) by implying God has done what He can and now is simply waiting for a response in hope. In such a situation, the burden all being on man (after God has done what He could) tends to make it a necessity that all of God's counsel in regard to faith has been made known and passed on to every human. Requirement does not limit God in such a way. He can still simply say no man meets the requirement - or only certain men meet the requirement - all the while letting the decree (the just shall live by faith) hold true and Him being just Himself. He is not bound to reveal all - nor is it to our benefit. If a man (in the end) simply can't believe, God's requirement is not diminished in the least. His expectation, however, is a failure - all because someone failed to hold up his end of the deal.

Now please realize I'm not trying to put words in your mouth - the choice of word simply gave me the opportunity to express how reading one little thing into the matter (God's Sovereignty and man's freedom) can seem subtle, but - if carried through - can change how it is viewed. There is much that is hidden, but erring on the side of upholding God's Sovereignty at the expense (possibly) of man's free will seems to me to be the safer thing to do.

Grosnick Marowbe
October 24th, 2015, 02:43 PM
Paul could have said,

All are reprobates and come short of the glory of God, Romans 3:23.

Man has fallen and he can't get up. Catholics believe that this fallen man can be re-habilitated through the works of the law. But when the Catholics get through with him he is a bigger sinner than he was before, only now he is a hypocrite as well.

Religious people believe that the solution to man's fallen condition is within himself. If he would just stop lying, cheating and stealing and become a fit vessel he would be accepted. This is the devils lie.

There are more religious reprobates than there are non-religious reprobates. I have more success reaching non-religious people with the Gospel than I do the regular church goers. Why is this? The regular church people are not interested in the Gospel simply because the Gospel is about Christ. They want to hear about what they can do to please a holy God. When you tell them that God is only pleased with Jesus Christ, they tell you goodbye.

Good post

beloved57
October 24th, 2015, 02:52 PM
Paul could have said,

All are reprobates and come short of the glory of God, Romans 3:23.

Man has fallen and he can't get up. Catholics believe that this fallen man can be re-habilitated through the works of the law. But when the Catholics get through with him he is a bigger sinner than he was before, only now he is a hypocrite as well.

Religious people believe that the solution to man's fallen condition is within himself. If he would just stop lying, cheating and stealing and become a fit vessel he would be accepted. This is the devils lie.

There are more religious reprobates than there are non-religious reprobates. I have more success reaching non-religious people with the Gospel than I do the regular church goers. Why is this? The regular church people are not interested in the Gospel simply because the Gospel is about Christ. They want to hear about what they can do to please a holy God. When you tell them that God is only pleased with Jesus Christ, they tell you goodbye.

Pateism believes that God shall punish them who are Perfect and Righteous through Christ, in eternal hell fire for their sins !

Ask Mr. Religion
October 24th, 2015, 03:23 PM
Calvinists change the character and intent of the God of the Bible in order to make their "false doctrines" seem reasonable.


Calvinists belief system blinds them from seeing any free-will choice.


I believe that Calvinism is an ungodly belief system.

You haven't provided a single argument to support your claims. No one can provide and answer to a nonexistent argument. Unless and until you or others like you put an actual argument on the table, there's nothing for anyone to evaluate.

Too many non-Calvinists take crucial intellectual shortcuts. I try not to let them get away with that any more than I'd let an non-believer get away with the same behavior.

Non-Calvinist critics of Calvinism need to master the difference between assertions and arguments. They need to become aware of their unexamined assumptions. When they are pressed to examine them, things usually start off well enough. But as the discussion continues wherein they are asked to dig deeper into what they are asserting without careful examination, the discussion quickly turns into personal attacks; most likely borne of the cognitive dissonance that has erupted within themselves. At that point it usually becomes a matter of fight or flight. Being a good steward of one's time granted by God dictates not to waste one's efforts on those that have shown themselves to be unwilling or unable to engage at the needed substantive level for sacred topics.

The non-Calvinist needs to learn that just because something seems to be wrong to them, that creates no presumption that their perception is correct. Non-Calvinist critics need to become cognizant of how often they beg the question.

Unfortunately, these folks usually shield themselves from scrutiny by playing to a sympathetic audience or airing their views in a controlled setting (which they themselves can control). They don't usually risk direct and substantive engagement with others that disagree who happen to be in their own weight class. And for good reason. :AMR:

Not a few non-Calvinists like to merely nakedly assert, usually involving some lifted Scripture quotes with nice boldface or coloring, without providing and actual argument and then sit back. After all, "Scripture says this, see my boldface therein? That settles it. I win!" :AMR1:

It is simply not the Calvinist's job to make their argument for these sorts, as they are but intellectual freeloaders. Why should anyone enable their intellectual laziness by doing the heavy-lifting they themselves should be doing? Unless there's a well-provided reason to think their view of this or that matter of doctrine is incompatible with God's goodness, love, or whatever, there's nothing for the Calvinist to disprove. We literally have nothing to work with in a real discussion.

Nowadays persons have their feelings hurt at even the most superficially perceived slight in their direction. These folks would have withered away during the days of the Reformation wherein the Reformers were engaged in a deathlike battle of words with their opponents. Reading them as they interacted with the heterodox and heretics around them makes the so-called "truth-smacking" at TOL to be nothing more than ladies tea-time.

Accordingly, it is becoming an increasingly rare occasion for me to actually engage another unless that person has honestly shown themselves to be willing to stay put until the matter is driven to ground while not retreating behind: verbal abuse when unable to furnish even prima facie reasons for their objections, toadying to the crowd, lachrymose claims of hurt feelings, refusal to dig deeper into the topic and interact with the same, and other what-nots that purportedly gives them a poor rationalization to bow out of the discussion.

That being said, there is not a person on this site or anywhere else that has contacted me with questions that I have not provided answers to them...in detail. I have no problem explaining that which I hold dear to the sincere person wanting to know more about some topic or even question what I believe. It just seems to me in the public arena some are unwilling to be seen as willing to learn something new or increase their knowledge. It is not a weakness to desire this, but a strength of character.

AMR

Dialogos
October 24th, 2015, 03:43 PM
…The scriptures teach that man is born after Adam in Adam's likeness therefore unlike Adam who God spoke into existence we are born dead to God.
Glorydaz replied:


That's speculation.

To the contrary, Intojoy is on solid biblical ground here.

The bible says that apart from Christ we are all dead in trespasses and sins following the devil and were by nature children of wrath.


And you were dead in the trespasses and sins in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience-- among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, (Ephesians 2:1-4 ESV)

If this doesn’t convince you that, apart from Christ, we are all dead to God as Intojoy stated, then I don’t know what would convince you.

Glorydaz, if this doesn't prove that we are dead to God apart from Christ then can you please tell us what our relationship is to God as unbelievers?

What would it mean to be "dead to God" if being separated from Christ doesn't make us "dead to God?"

Musterion asked:

Why do those who believe, believe?

I think this is exactly the right question to ask.

Musterion, how would you answer this question?

glorydaz
October 24th, 2015, 03:43 PM
You haven't provided a single argument to support your claims. No one can provide and answer to a nonexistent argument. Unless and until you or others like you put an actual argument on the table, there's nothing for anyone to evaluate.

Too many non-Calvinists take crucial intellectual shortcuts. I try not to let them get away with that any more than I'd let an non-believer get away with the same behavior.

Non-Calvinist critics of Calvinism need to master the difference between assertions and arguments. They need to become aware of their unexamined assumptions. When they are pressed to examine them, things usually start off well enough. But as the discussion continues wherein they are asked to dig deeper into what they are asserting without careful examination, the discussion quickly turns into personal attacks; most likely borne of the cognitive dissonance that has erupted within themselves. At that point it usually becomes a matter of fight or flight. Being a good steward of one's time granted by God dictates not to waste one's efforts on those that have shown themselves to be unwilling or unable to engage at the needed substantive level for sacred topics.

The non-Calvinist needs to learn that just because something seems to be wrong to them, that creates no presumption that their perception is correct. Non-Calvinist critics need to become cognizant of how often they beg the question.

Unfortunately, these folks usually shield themselves from scrutiny by playing to a sympathetic audience or airing their views in a controlled setting (which they themselves can control). They don't usually risk direct and substantive engagement with others that disagree who happen to be in their own weight class. And for good reason. :AMR:

Not a few non-Calvinists like to merely nakedly assert, usually involving some lifted Scripture quotes with nice boldface or coloring, without providing and actual argument and then sit back. After all, "Scripture says this, see my boldface therein? That settles it. I win!" :AMR1:

It is simply not the Calvinist's job to make their argument for these sorts, as they are but intellectual freeloaders. Why should anyone enable their intellectual laziness by doing the heavy-lifting they themselves should be doing? Unless there's a well-provided reason to think their view of this or that matter of doctrine is incompatible with God's goodness, love, or whatever, there's nothing for the Calvinist to disprove. We literally have nothing to work with in a real discussion.

Nowadays persons have their feelings hurt at even the most superficially perceived slight in their direction. These folks would have withered away during the days of the Reformation wherein the Reformers were engaged in a deathlike battle of words with their opponents. Reading them as they interacted with the heterodox and heretics around them makes the so-called "truth-smacking" at TOL to be nothing more than ladies tea-time.

Accordingly, it is becoming an increasingly rare occasion for me to actually engage another unless that person has honestly shown themselves to be willing to stay put until the matter is driven to ground while not retreating behind: verbal abuse when unable to furnish even prima facie reasons for their objections, toadying to the crowd, lachrymose claims of hurt feelings, refusal to dig deeper into the topic and interact with the same, and other what-nots that purportedly gives them a poor rationalization to bow out of the discussion.

That being said, there is not a person on this site or anywhere else that has contacted me with questions that I have not provided answers to them...in detail. I have no problem explaining that which I hold dear to the sincere person wanting to know more about some topic or even question what I believe. It just seems to me in the public arena some are unwilling to be seen as willing to learn something new or increase their knowledge. It is not a weakness to desire this, but a strength of character.

AMR

I feel your frustration, dear brother. On occasion I have attempted to explain what I see in the areas where we clearly differ, but I am a very simple person. I just can't keep up with all your big words and the multitude of verses at one time. I'd like to address one at a time, but it never ends up that way. I honestly don't think it's that non-Calvinists don't have answers, but that most simply get over-whelmed by things that go beyond basic Bible truths. My eyes start glazing over with the terms. I'm just not sure you could ever dumb it down enough for me to actually discuss something. Not that I wouldn't like to. It seems like we can't really get past the Gospel and why we preach it. Someone like Clete on a one on one, perhaps. Or maybe just one point of TULIP at a time..... :idunno:

glorydaz
October 24th, 2015, 03:53 PM
The bible says that apart from Christ we are all dead in trespasses and sins following the devil and were by nature children of wrath.


Condemned to die for sins, but not so dead we cannot seek God, and not so dead we cannot hear God. And how about the Gentiles who do by nature the things contained in the law?



If this doesn’t convince you that, apart from Christ, we are all dead to God as Intojoy stated, then I don’t know what would convince you.

Glorydaz, if this doesn't prove that we are dead to God apart from Christ then can you please tell us what our relationship is to God as unbelievers?

What would it mean to be "dead to God" if being separated from Christ doesn't make us "dead to God?"



"Dead to God" is your term. Where is that found in the Bible?

ttruscott
October 24th, 2015, 04:11 PM
REPROBATE: 1. Having lost all sense of duty; depraved. 2. Abandoned to punishment; condemned.
...
Men become reprobates by rejecting Christ and his Gospel. Many are religious reprobates. After awhile the Holy Spirit gives up on them and they become reprobates.

GOD is love and love is patient and never harms...HE will never give up on anyone. If someone is not saved, they CANNOT be saved!!! HE will never give up on anyone who can be saved.

To believe HE created us sinners in Adam is to believe HE created some for hell - no matter how many pages of theo-babble are written to double think one's way past this truth.

Dialogos
October 24th, 2015, 04:15 PM
Condemned to die for sins, but not so dead we cannot seek God, and not so dead we cannot hear God.

But that's not what the text says. It does not say that are condemned to die, that's your term. Paul is very specifically saying that they were, past tense, dead in trespasses and sins.


" And you were dead in the trespasses and sins
2 in which you once walked (Eph 2:1-2 ESV)"

How do you explain the disharmony between your assertion that we are condemned to die (future tense) for our sins and Paul's assertion that we were all dead in our sins in which we once walked?

Furthermore, we've had this discussion on whether or not we can seek God in our flesh before. I've answered your post with my post here. (http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4488141&postcount=251)

Did you have a chance to read it?



And how about the Gentiles who do by nature the things contained in the law?

How about them? They show that the work of the law is written on their hearts. Their conscience brings them conflicting thoughts of both excuse and accusation.

The work of the law for them isn't any more helpful than the work of the law for the Jew.

That's why Paul sums up by saying:

" For by works of the law no human being will be justified in his sight, since through the law comes knowledge of sin. (Romans 3:20 ESV)

Why would you assume that the conscience of the gentile does anything more than the law does for the Jew?

In both cases you get the knowledge of sin.




"Dead to God" is your term. Where is that found in the Bible?

Actually, it was Intojoy's but if you prefer dead in trespasses and sins, I'm fine with that.

glorydaz
October 24th, 2015, 04:36 PM
But that's not what the text says. It does not say that are condemned to die, that's your term. Paul is very specifically saying that they were, past tense, dead in trespasses and sins.


" And you were dead in the trespasses and sins
2 in which you once walked (Eph 2:1-2 ESV)"

How do you explain the disharmony between your assertion that we are condemned to die (future tense) for our sins and Paul's assertion that we were all dead in our sins in which we once walked?

Furthermore, we've had this discussion on whether or not we can seek God in our flesh before. I've answered your post with my post here. (http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4488141&postcount=251)

Did you have a chance to read it?


How about them? They show that the work of the law is written on their hearts. Their conscience brings them conflicting thoughts of both excuse and accusation.

The work of the law for them isn't any more helpful than the work of the law for the Jew.

That's why Paul sums up by saying:

" For by works of the law no human being will be justified in his sight, since through the law comes knowledge of sin. (Romans 3:20 ESV)

Why would you assume that the conscience of the gentile does anything more than the law does for the Jew?

In both cases you get the knowledge of sin.




Actually, it was Intojoy's but if you prefer dead in trespasses and sins, I'm fine with that.

Ya know what? I think you guys deliberately do this. Did you see the length of that post you cited? It's like trying to get a word in edge wise with some politician. By the time they pause to take a breath, a person is willing to sign the darn petition for the sake of some peace and quiet.

Why in the world would you try to turn this into something to do with justification? Oh.....I know why. It's that famous ploy known as redirection. Very clever. It goes perfectly with long winded speeches. :chuckle:

If you'd like me to answer any question from you....ask ONE.

Dialogos
October 24th, 2015, 07:54 PM
Ya know what? I think you guys deliberately do this. Did you see the length of that post you cited?

Yes, I wrote it myself ;)



It's like trying to get a word in edge wise with some politician. By the time they pause to take a breath, a person is willing to sign the darn petition for the sake of some peace and quiet.

This isn't a very kind comparison to make of my posts.

I have no vested interest in you or anyone else "signing a petition."

Sometimes a thoughtful and careful examination of God's word takes a little thoughtfulness to write which means that it takes a little effort to read as well.


Why in the world would you try to turn this into something to do with justification?

Oh.....I know why. It's that famous ploy known as redirection. Very clever. It goes perfectly with long winded speeches. :chuckle:

If you aren't going to read or reply to that post, then just say so.

There is no need to make the false accusation that I am trying to redirect the conversation like "some politician." That's a very uncharitable comparison.

My last post (http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4496248&postcount=62)to you asked the same number of questions you asked me, the rest is an honest attempt to answer your questions. (http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4496213&postcount=60)




If you'd like me to answer any question from you....ask ONE.
My reply (http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4496248&postcount=62) to you in this thread asked you only two questions. That's precisely the number of questions you asked me in your response. (http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4496213&postcount=60)

Ok, If you are only willing to answer ONE question, then only ask ONE question. If you expect to have multiple questions answered, then I think its only fair you answer at least as many as you ask.

I'm fine only expecting you to answer a single question at a time.

Here it is:

How do you explain the disharmony between your assertion that we are condemned to die (future tense) for our sins and Paul's assertion that we were all dead in our sins in which we once walked?

intojoy
October 24th, 2015, 08:43 PM
Simple. So simple, in fact, that you already know the answer:

Why do those who believe, believe?

The elect are given divine enabling to excercise their will against its sin nature to which it was in bondage.

Did you make a mistake when you wrote that God elects some to unbelief?

One does not have to be of the elect to be predestined to hnbelief. All were in unbelief even the elect. The difference is God chose us for no goodness in us at all, He owes none of us anything and we have become the recipients of something we do not deserve and that which we did not even know we needed.

intojoy
October 24th, 2015, 08:49 PM
Ya know what? I think you guys deliberately do this. Did you see the length of that post you cited? It's like trying to get a word in edge wise with some politician. By the time they pause to take a breath, a person is willing to sign the darn petition for the sake of some peace and quiet.

Why in the world would you try to turn this into something to do with justification? Oh.....I know why. It's that famous ploy known as redirection. Very clever. It goes perfectly with long winded speeches. :chuckle:

If you'd like me to answer any question from you....ask ONE.

Don't pull a j sugah on me."what about the Gentiles who by nature..."

This is simply answered as follows: the revelation of God given to the Gentiles thru nature is sufficient to condemn them for unbelief but not sufficient to save.

The revelation of God given to the Gentiles thru their conscience is sufficient to condemn but not sufficient to save.

Try another one.

musterion
October 24th, 2015, 08:50 PM
Musterion asked:

I think this is exactly the right question to ask.

Musterion, how would you answer this question?

The same way I've answered it for you in the past, which you've rejected every time:

They believe because God gave all of us the ability to believe Him...or to not believe Him. Just like Cain...if anyone was born "dead in sin" it was he, but God tried long and hard to reason with him. Why? Because even born "dead in sin," Cain had the ability to choose. So do we all. That's the only sane explanation of why He also pleads with us all through Paul.

The only alternative is that all of human history really is the elaborate puppetoon that honest Calvinists purport it to be. But if that's true, then He really is a liar for condemning for unbelief those He knows will not believe because the only reason they won't believe is because they CAN'T. And the reason they can't is because HE didn't want them to...or at least didn't want them to badly enough to elect them. Either way, the result is the same: He's condemning them all for the exact thing He willed them to do when He could just as easily have done otherwise...exactly like the alleged "hypers" like B57 gleefully AND CORRECTLY admit.

But all of this is mere speculation drawn only for the sake of argument from Calvinism's blasphemously false assumption about God. So instead let's deal with fact: the Bible is clear that God does not lie. Since He judges and condemns unbelief, then both belief and unbelief of the Gospel are within the free will power of choice He has given every human being; hence the justified condemnation for rejecting it.

But if that ability doesn't actually exist within us, then He is lying when He pleads with people to be reconciled to Him and He is lying when He condemns anyone on the basis of unbelief.

There is no way around that conclusion and you know it.

patrick jane
October 24th, 2015, 09:00 PM
...exactly like the alleged "hypers" like B57 gleefully AND CORRECTLY admit.


There is no way around that conclusion and you know it.

gleefully - :chuckle:

intojoy
October 24th, 2015, 09:00 PM
GOD is love and love is patient and never harms...HE will never give up on anyone. If someone is not saved, they CANNOT be saved!!! HE will never give up on anyone who can be saved.

To believe HE created us sinners in Adam is to believe HE created some for hell - no matter how many pages of theo-babble are written to double think one's way past this truth.

You have based your conclusion upon your question to which you answer yourself and not any scriptures that support your answer.

Here, you claim that God cannot be fair if He elects to save without electing to damn right? That's your preconceived doctrinal assumption based on human evaluation in human emotions. Scripture clearly says God cannot sin nor does He create sin. According to your logic man was created to sin.

Again, your rejection of the doctrine of God's elect is based in your emotional question answered by yourself. For that reason the scriptures are not the final authority for you, your intellect is your final authority. Mine is the Word of God and it speaks about election and the "middle view" is the biblical view concerning election.

God allowed for the fall. That condemned every man even before they breathed. God then rendered all men savable. God elected for Himself those who come to faith. This is all scriptural and not based upon a human question or human reasoning.

glorydaz
October 24th, 2015, 09:02 PM
I'm fine only expecting you to answer a single question at a time.

Here it is:

How do you explain the disharmony between your assertion that we are condemned to die (future tense) for our sins and Paul's assertion that we were all dead in our sins in which we once walked?

Thank you....it took some wading to get to the question. I have to say I was tempted to try and respond a bit here and there, which never seems to work for me. So I appreciate your patience. ;)

When Paul says we were all dead in our sins, he is not saying we were comatose and unable to respond, or weren't rational thinking human beings. You are reading more into that statement than is actually there. What Paul is saying is that we were enemies of God, condemned to die (for the wages of sin is death), and destined to face God's wrath at the Judgment. We know this because Paul goes to some serious lengths to explain about faith, and hearing and believing the Gospel. If we were dead zombies, Paul would not have said this...


Eph. 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

Or this....

Romans 6:17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.

You cite Paul and then quite conveniently ignore all of what Paul says (except the "dead" in sins part). :think:

intojoy
October 24th, 2015, 09:04 PM
Factoid:
A Very small number of people have been saved from the mass of humanity. 99% of all humans to date have died unsaved.

intojoy
October 24th, 2015, 09:05 PM
Thank you....it took some wading to get to the question. I have to say I was tempted to try and respond a bit here and there, which never seems to work for me. So I appreciate your patience. ;)

When Paul says we were all dead in our sins, he is not saying we were comatose and unable to respond, or weren't rational thinking human beings. You are reading more into that statement than is actually there. What Paul is saying is that we were enemies of God, condemned to die (for the wages of sin is death), and destined to face God's wrath at the Judgment. We know this because Paul goes to some serious lengths to explain about faith, and hearing and believing the Gospel. If we were dead zombies, Paul would not have said this...


Eph. 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

Or this....

Romans 6:17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.

You cite Paul and then quite conveniently ignore all of what Paul says (except the "dead" in sins part). :think:

So God owes you since you believe. Got it.

glorydaz
October 24th, 2015, 09:31 PM
So God owes you since you believe. Got it.

God made the rules....why do you mock Him?

glorydaz
October 24th, 2015, 09:32 PM
Factoid:
A Very small number of people have been saved from the mass of humanity. 99% of all humans to date have died unsaved.

Golly gee. You're the little guy who stands at the pearly gate. :shocked:

Dialogos
October 24th, 2015, 09:56 PM
When Paul says we were all dead in our sins, he is not saying we were comatose and unable to respond, or weren't rational thinking human beings. You are reading more into that statement than is actually there.

Unable to respond in what capacity is the real question, isn't it.
There have more people than can be counted who were "rational thinking human beings" that nevertheless turned away from the offer of eternal life in Christ Jesus.

Why?

"following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience-- (Eph 2:2 ESV)"

Have you ever noticed this?

The spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience is who we all followed when we were dead in trespasses and sins.

If the spirit of father of lies is at work in someone, wouldn't that make them less responsive to God than a "neutral party" might be?

Ask Mr. Religion
October 24th, 2015, 10:37 PM
Factoid:
A Very small number of people have been saved from the mass of humanity. 99% of all humans to date have died unsaved.

Er, no.

http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showthread.php?p=4485652#post4485652

AMR

intojoy
October 24th, 2015, 10:49 PM
Er, no.

http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showthread.php?p=4485652#post4485652

AMR

Example Elijah's 7k

Out of the 5 billion alive today how many believe?

Arthur Brain
October 24th, 2015, 11:08 PM
Factoid:
A Very small number of people have been saved from the mass of humanity. 99% of all humans to date have died unsaved.

That's not a fact, it's just you blabbering away some unsubstantiated statistic. You're really not a particularly pleasant or understanding guy are you?

Arthur Brain
October 24th, 2015, 11:10 PM
Example Elijah's 7k

Out of the 5 billion alive today how many believe?

There's more than 5 billion alive in the world today, it's closer to 7 billion so that shows how reliable you are where it comes to numbers...

Ask Mr. Religion
October 24th, 2015, 11:20 PM
Example Elijah's 7k

Out of the 5 billion alive today how many believe?

Did you actually read my post?

AMR

Arthur Brain
October 24th, 2015, 11:23 PM
Please enumerate the steps, 1, 2, 3....n that you view as the logical thought process used by God when creating the universe. The world now exists. So steps that are but fanciful flights of imagination about what God could have done versus what is actually now present are irrelevant. The steps should reflect a connection to the current state of affairs.

As an example, taking an infralapsarian view, see my earlier:
http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showthread.php?p=4495576#post4495576

For example, a Molinist would likely proffer something along the lines:

1: God’s natural knowledge of everything that could be
2: God’s middle knowledge of everything that would be
3. God's Divine Decree Here based upon something from 1 and 2 above
4: God’s free knowledge of everything that will happen in the actual world

After all, the OP deals with the decree and takes a view begging the question of what the logical steps taken when creating God took in support of the OP's odd view. If one is going to cavil about something one should be able to think it through and offer up a position for examination. Of course, Robert Pate resists any challenge to dig a wee bit deeper, hence my original response. Given you have an opinion, I am only asking to see it fleshed out in an orderly fashion.

AMR

The current state of affairs is that we live in a world as is evidenced around us. Where it comes to what God knows or is capable of knowing then I'm not one to put constraints on that. For example I don't agree that God having sovereign knowledge about everything impacts upon the will of another simply for knowing what happens in advance as some argue.

It doesn't strike me as particularly logical or loving to create mankind and set up the parameters whereby it would be impossible to restore or keep hold of all creation from the get go. I'm in opposition to the 'orthodox''open' view as much as your own on that score.

Ask Mr. Religion
October 24th, 2015, 11:33 PM
It doesn't strike me as particularly logical or loving ...Why the singular focus on loving? I ask because when I see this it usually comes from our human ideas of love versus the plain "setting one's preferences upon another" from Scripture. It also seems to ignore all the other divine perfections. A judge who pardons each and every wrongdoer is hardly putting on display his full glory.

AMR

intojoy
October 24th, 2015, 11:46 PM
I stand by my claim. Bain you're one of the 99 bud

Arthur Brain
October 24th, 2015, 11:48 PM
Why the singular focus on loving? I ask because when I see this it usually comes from our human ideas of love versus the plain "setting one's preferences upon another" from Scripture. It also seems to ignore all the other divine perfections. A judge who pardons each and every wrongdoer is hardly putting on display his full glory.

AMR

Well, if God is love, then it follows that the focus rests on that first and foremost where it comes to the subject I would posit. So the notion of a loving deity creating mankind where through design - many or some end up in a created 'hell' of some sort - does not add up logically, especially if some are effectively rendered helpless to do anything about it while others are given just what they need, and apparently arbitrarily.

If God were to ultimately retain all of creation then that wouldn't necessarily negate justice or other attributes either.

intojoy
October 24th, 2015, 11:49 PM
Did you actually read my post?

AMR

Little. My point is not that I'm right, it's that so many anti elect folks are so terribly upset and demanding fairness that I thought it right to place some perspective on the reality that the majority of the mass of humanity will not be saved.

Arthur Brain
October 24th, 2015, 11:50 PM
I stand by my claim. Bain you're one of the 99 bud

Stand by it all you want, you're almost making B57 look reasonable...you're the kind of nut that embarrasses Calvinism and a nasty little piece of work to boot frankly.

intojoy
October 24th, 2015, 11:52 PM
Stand by it all you want, you're almost making B57 look reasonable...you're the kind of nut that embarrasses Calvinism and a nasty little piece of work to boot frankly.

Sure Bain you really sound like you know a lot. Hehe

Arthur Brain
October 24th, 2015, 11:58 PM
Sure Bain you really sound like you know a lot. Hehe

Go look up empathy and compassion in a dictionary.

intojoy
October 24th, 2015, 11:58 PM
Right professor Bain
I'm on it mate

Ask Mr. Religion
October 25th, 2015, 12:17 AM
Little. My point is not that I'm right, it's that so many anti elect folks are so terribly upset and demanding fairness that I thought it right to place some perspective on the reality that the majority of the mass of humanity will not be saved.
But the "reality" you assert has no Scriptural warrant. That is the point of my post explaining the matter. When Scripture plainly speaks of a great multitude no one could number that should imply something very different to your basic opinion.

AMR

glorydaz
October 25th, 2015, 12:20 AM
Stand by it all you want, you're almost making B57 look reasonable...you're the kind of nut that embarrasses Calvinism and a nasty little piece of work to boot frankly.

:thumb:

Grosnick Marowbe
October 25th, 2015, 03:46 AM
Factoid:
A Very small number of people have been saved from the mass of humanity. 99% of all humans to date have died unsaved.

What? Have you taken a poll or something? Where do you come
up with that percentage?

Grosnick Marowbe
October 25th, 2015, 03:47 AM
That's not a fact, it's just you blabbering away some unsubstantiated statistic. You're really not a particularly pleasant or understanding guy are you?

Intojoy is a Knucklehead.

musterion
October 25th, 2015, 06:17 AM
Stand by it all you want, you're almost making B57 look reasonable...you're the kind of nut that embarrasses Calvinism and a nasty little piece of work to boot frankly.

True, that. For all his idiocy, B57 is consistent and lets Calvinism's reprobative chips fall where they may (actually, where God preordained them to fall). I've never seen him try to tapdance around it.

Robert Pate
October 25th, 2015, 06:28 AM
I would like to believe that many will be saved.

I would also like to believe that there is a second chance to believe and repent in the judgment.

However, Jesus said, "Few there be that find it" Matthew 7:14.

And then Romans 9:27 says that only a remnant shall be saved.

I find this disturbing.

fishrovmen
October 25th, 2015, 06:55 AM
And then Romans 9:27 says that only a remnant shall be saved.

I find this disturbing.

A remnant of what? The whole world?

beloved57
October 25th, 2015, 07:12 AM
I would like to believe that many will be saved.

I would also like to believe that there is a second chance to believe and repent in the judgment.

However, Jesus said, "Few there be that find it" Matthew 7:14.

And then Romans 9:27 says that only a remnant shall be saved.

I find this disturbing.

Invalid comments not supported by scripture!

musterion
October 25th, 2015, 07:16 AM
I would like to believe that many will be saved.

So would I. Ever since discovering the unexpected universalist streak running through many folks in the Acts 28 camp, I've been mulling this in the back of my mind. They seem to hinge it on Col 1:19-20 with the assumption that reconcile means save. The problem is, they admit that the salvation of all would still require the faith of all, which is why many universalists also hold to some form or degree of Calvinistic fatalism mixed with a form of what looks like purgatory as God brings unbelievers to faith after death. THAT is disturbing.

patrick jane
October 25th, 2015, 07:58 AM
It must be terrifying for new Calvinist parents, not knowing for years if their child is a reprobate or not.

musterion
October 25th, 2015, 08:04 AM
It must be terrifying for new Calvinist parents, not knowing for years if their child is a reprobate or not.

Very true, so they'll raise their kids as legalistically as they can in order to "prove" the kid must be one of the elect, hoping he/she doesn't "fall away" when they're older. On the upside, it'd be hard to take any blame for bad parenting..."Yeah, my loser drug-dealing adult kid swung on a cop and has renounced the Bible, so she's obviously a reprobate. Not my fault, glory to God, mysterious ways, potter/clay, who art thou to talk back to God," etc.

Robert Pate
October 25th, 2015, 08:11 AM
It must be terrifying for new Calvinist parents, not knowing for years if their child is a reprobate or not.

There is no assurance of salvation for the Calvinist. They are not trusting in the Gospel. They are trusting in themselves. It is very much like Catholicism.

beloved57
October 25th, 2015, 09:17 AM
There is no assurance of salvation for the Calvinist. They are not trusting in the Gospel. They are trusting in themselves. It is very much like Catholicism.

You teach that man is saved by what they do!

musterion
October 26th, 2015, 03:45 PM
You teach that man is saved by what they do!

If I'm drowning and a guy on the deck of a ship throws me a life ring, and I take it, my surviving does not = "I saved myself." That guy saved me. But if I reject his life ring and drown, I chose to doom myself. So it is with the Gospel of the grace of God, which you know only enough about to reject it.

Robert Pate
October 26th, 2015, 04:52 PM
You teach that man is saved by what they do!

Jesus said, "He that believes in him is not condemned" John 3:18.

beloved57
October 26th, 2015, 05:15 PM
If I'm drowning and a guy on the deck of a ship throws me a life ring, and I take it, my surviving does not = "I saved myself." That guy saved me. But if I reject his life ring and drown, I chose to doom myself. So it is with the Gospel of the grace of God, which you know only enough about to reject it.

Wonder if you were already drowned, dead ?

beloved57
October 26th, 2015, 05:20 PM
Jesus said, "He that believes in him is not condemned" John 3:18.

They are not! Neither is anyone He lived and died for, because He obeyed Gods Law perfectly for them, and they are believers by Him. The doers of the Law shall be Justified Rom 2:13! Do you deny that Christ was a doer of the Law?

Ask Mr. Religion
October 26th, 2015, 05:27 PM
If I'm drowning and a guy on the deck of a ship throws me a life ring, and I take it, my surviving does not = "I saved myself."

Actually it means you cooperated in the saving of yourself, hence synergism, which is always the root of most disagreements involving soteriology.

No one can believe unless God grants it and all to whom God grants the Son will believe.

See John 6:63-65 which plainly teaches that regeneraiton precedes faith.

63 "It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh is no help at all. The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life.
64 But there are some of you who do not believe." (For Jesus knew from the beginning who those were who did not believe, and who it was who would betray him.)
65 And he said, "This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father."

It unambiguously teaches that no one can believe in Jesus Christ unless God grants it... and it is the Spirit who quickens, regenerates and gives life. If that were not enough, in John 6:37 of the same passage Jesus teaches with the same language that all whom God grants will have faith in Christ.

"All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out."

To be perfectly clear, monergism asserts that God is not unconditionally willing to save each and every person, rather that God instead has mercy on whom He will have mercy. The point is not that monergism provides a way to reconcile God's universal desire to save with a limited number of people actually being saved, but that synergism's primary raison d'etre is false: the only escape for the synergist from an assertion that God is unwilling to save each and every person, is that God is actually unable to save each and every person, and that assertion denies God's omnipotence.

Think about it and it will come to you. :AMR:

AMR

patrick jane
October 26th, 2015, 05:32 PM
Actually it means you cooperated in the saving of yourself, hence synergism, which is always the root of most disagreements involving soteriology.

No one can believe unless God grants it and all to whom God grants the Son will believe.

See John 6:63-65 which plainly teaches that regeneraiton precedes faith.

63 "It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh is no help at all. The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life.
64 But there are some of you who do not believe." (For Jesus knew from the beginning who those were who did not believe, and who it was who would betray him.)
65 And he said, "This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father."

It unambiguously teaches that no one can believe in Jesus Christ unless God grants it... and it is the Spirit who quickens, regenerates and gives life. If that were not enought, in John 6:37 of the same passage Jesus teaches with the same language that all whom God grants will have faith in Christ.

"All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out."

To be perfectly clear, monergism asserts that God is not unconditionally willing to save each and every person, rather that God instead has mercy on whom He will have mercy. The point is not that monergism provides a way to reconcile God's universal desire to save with a limited number of people actually being saved, but that synergism's primary raison d'etre is false: the only escape for the synergist from an assertion that God is unwilling to save each and every person, is that God is actually unable to save each and every person, and that assertion denies God's omnipotence.

Think about it and it will come to you. :AMR:

AMR

So what else do you have to do to stay saved, as a calvinist ?

musterion
October 26th, 2015, 05:52 PM
Actually it means you cooperated in the saving of yourself

No it doesn't, and your insistence on loading the term that way won't fly. Simply obeying God by believing what He wants believed does not mean that, in believing it, I helped Him to save me. The work of salvation is a gift but, as with any gift, one that all who hear may reject or accept. In rejecting it, they take on 100% of the responsibility and condemnation because they chose to reject it. In accepting it, they receive 0% credit or merit because the gift is 100% His to give and the work is already 100% completed by Christ.

What is it about that you find unfathomable?

God expects to be believed and condemns those who won't. That simple fact alone proves free will exists in all men and that any without exception could be saved. Else He could never justly condemn anyone for not believing Him.

oatmeal
October 26th, 2015, 05:54 PM
God does not create reprobates.

People choose to reject God and the truth and over time they become reprobates as the verses you posted show

beloved57
October 26th, 2015, 06:05 PM
God does not create reprobates.

People choose to reject God and the truth and over time they become reprobates as the verses you posted show

You and I dont believe in the same God ! The God I Worship created the reprobate as Vessels of Wrath and then they are fitted for destruction !

musterion
October 26th, 2015, 06:07 PM
Also, John 6:45 teaches who was to be drawn to Christ: those who had already been taught by the Father by paying attention to and believing the prophets; those who were actually waiting and watching for Messiah. John 6:63-65 says much the same thing, that those who knew and believed the prophets would be drawn to Him. That is why Christ pointed His critics back to the prophets (John 5:39-40).

glorydaz
October 26th, 2015, 07:33 PM
God expects to be believed and condemns those who won't. That simple fact alone proves free will exists in all men and that any without exception could be saved. Else He could never justly condemn anyone for not believing Him.

:thumb:

beloved57
October 26th, 2015, 07:35 PM
Also, John 6:45 teaches who was to be drawn to Christ: those who had already been taught by the Father by paying attention to and believing the prophets; those who were actually waiting and watching for Messiah. John 6:63-65 says much the same thing, that those who knew and believed the prophets would be drawn to Him. That is why Christ pointed His critics back to the prophets (John 5:39-40).

Invalid comments not supported by scripture!

Ask Mr. Religion
October 27th, 2015, 12:25 AM
No it doesn't, and your insistence on loading the term that way won't fly.

Redefining the word "cooperation" is no escape from the reality of the matter. Your own words betray your denial:


If I'm drowning and a guy on the deck of a ship throws me a life ring, and I take it, my surviving does not = "I saved myself." That guy saved me. But if I reject his life ring and drown, I chose to doom myself.

No matter what winsome or flowery prose you construct, the plain fact is you are cooperating. You are offered "a life ring" as you thrash about; you can choose to take it or not take it. You take it. You declare you could have rejected the life ring and perish. Hence, you cooperated. Why seek to deny the obvious fact that you decided to grab the ring tossed to you by "that guy"?

If you are looking for what I consider a more accurate metaphor, see:
http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showthread.php?p=4447283#post4447283 ;)

AMR

musterion
October 27th, 2015, 03:35 AM
Redefining the word "cooperation" is no escape from the reality of the matter. Your own words betray your denial:



No matter what winsome or flowery prose you construct, the plain fact is you are cooperating. You are offered "a life ring" as you thrash about; you can choose to take it or not take it. You take it. You declare you could have rejected the life ring and perish. Hence, you cooperated. Why seek to deny the obvious fact that you decided to grab the ring tossed to you by "that guy"?

Not cooperated, obeyed (2 Thess 1:8). Obeyed whom? God, Whose gift of salvation is not in any sense or degree of ourselves (Eph 2:8-9).

Yet you insist on a straw man that makes us out, even if only potentially, to boast that we have cooperated in our own salvation, while in reality we find the thought abhorrent and, in any case, Scripture totally precludes it.

But once again, all of this is simply a dodge on your part to avoid the problem of unelected reprobates being damned specifically for their unbelief, which makes God out to be a liar.

beloved57
October 27th, 2015, 05:33 AM
pate


Jesus said, "He that believes in him is not condemned" John 3:18.

Thats True, However those who believe not on Him that He died for are not condemned either, because they were reconciled to God by His Death He died for them, while they were enemies/unbelievers Rom 5:10

10 For if, when we were enemies[unbelievers], [B]we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

Robert Pate
October 27th, 2015, 08:02 AM
God will ultimately give everyone what they want.

I can see where many on the Forum would not be happy to spend eternity in heaven with Christ. God does not force himself on anyone. If you don't want to go to heaven you won't have to be there.

The only ones that will be in heaven with Christ are those that want to be there.

beloved57
October 27th, 2015, 10:38 AM
God will ultimately give everyone what they want.

I can see where many on the Forum would not be happy to spend eternity in heaven with Christ. God does not force himself on anyone. If you don't want to go to heaven you won't have to be there.

The only ones that will be in heaven with Christ are those that want to be there.

Those Christ died for are reconciled to God while they are enemies and unbelievers, hating God Rom 5:10!

musterion
October 27th, 2015, 11:36 AM
Those Christ died for are reconciled to God while they are enemies and unbelievers, hating God Rom 5:10!

Exactl right. Christ died for all, without exception.

beloved57
October 27th, 2015, 12:00 PM
Exactl right. Christ died for all, without exception.

Invalid comment not supported by scripture!

Bright Raven
October 27th, 2015, 12:08 PM
Yes, to damn them for their sins, they are made Vessels of Wrath and their lives are lived being fitted for destruction, according to Gods Purpose Rom 9:21-22

21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
John 3:17 King James Version (KJV)

17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

Ask Mr. Religion
October 27th, 2015, 02:14 PM
Not cooperated, obeyed (2 Thess 1:8). Obeyed whom? God, Whose gift of salvation is not in any sense or degree of ourselves (Eph 2:8-9).

Yet you insist on a straw man that makes us out, even if only potentially, to boast that we have cooperated in our own salvation, while in reality we find the thought abhorrent and, in any case, Scripture totally precludes it.

But once again, all of this is simply a dodge on your part to avoid the problem of unelected reprobates being damned specifically for their unbelief, which makes God out to be a liar.
Rhetorical flimflammery.

Obey, cooperate, distinctions without a difference to provide the rationalization in hopes of escaping the plain fact that you were somehow more discerning, more wiser, more willing, than your neighbor.

You have already plainly stated you possessed the ability to choose right or wrong at the moment you so chose. The rest of your reasoning belies the actual fact you are straining unsuccessfully to avoid.

Doing something independent of the Spirit is what synergism amounts to in the end because when one ask the synergist why one person believes the gospel and not the other, the answer is never, "it is grace that made the one to differ from the other". For such an answer lands the synergist on the horns of a dilemma in explaining why he or she gets this grace and the other does not. No answer is possible for the one who thinks he or she possesses some ability to choose (or "obey") without admitting what they strive mightily to quitclaim.

Rather the plain fact is that the synergist's answer always points to some virtue (humility perhaps) that one unregenerate person has and another does not. So technically, it is not synergism but human monergism. Ultimately this theology looks to something one person does that another (the unbeliever) does not have the capacity to do. And thus the danger of synergistic theology which ultimately leads to "God, when you extended your grace to all men some did not make use of it, BUT I DID." :AMR:

No one can say, "Jesus is Lord," except by the Holy Spirit, and no one can believe the gospel unless God grants it. Now why do you suppose God grants you something and not your neighbor? Try to formulate a reason that escapes making God to be a debtor. There is but one answer: Considering zero perceived merit in what you would do or say, God set His preferences upon you (i.e., loved you) before you were even born from eternity.

But then to say in response that God loved all mankind in this same savingly efficacious manner is to declare Him impotent at best, a liar at worst, for not all are saved. To then go on to say, "well, not all obeyed, cooperated, etc., and God is not forcing anyone" is to say that God's saving preferences upon those that He loved before time is at the mercy of these objects of His love, to which God must repay for their obedience, cooperation, etc. God is not wringing His hands hoping for those that He has set His sights upon to come around to His way of thinking. God is not restricting His sovereignty to preserve your precious libertarian free will and thereby making Himself contingently liable to your fickle decisions.

When God decides to save someone do you honestly in your heart of hearts think you can do anything to thwart Him? I hope your answer will be "of course not". This then begs the ultimate question you and others are dancing around, "Why you, and not your neighbor?" There is but one answer to the question that maximally glorifies God: God specifically chose you and not your neighbor.

AMR

Robert Pate
October 28th, 2015, 10:17 AM
Rhetorical flimflammery.

Obey, cooperate, distinctions without a difference to provide the rationalization in hopes of escaping the plain fact that you were somehow more discerning, more wiser, more willing, than your neighbor.

You have already plainly stated you possessed the ability to choose right or wrong at the moment you so chose. The rest of your reasoning belies the actual fact you are straining unsuccessfully to avoid.

Doing something independent of the Spirit is what synergism amounts to in the end because when one ask the synergist why one person believes the gospel and not the other, the answer is never, "it is grace that made the one to differ from the other". For such an answer lands the synergist on the horns of a dilemma in explaining why he or she gets this grace and the other does not. No answer is possible for the one who thinks he or she possesses some ability to choose (or "obey") without admitting what they strive mightily to quitclaim.

Rather the plain fact is that the synergist's answer always points to some virtue (humility perhaps) that one unregenerate person has and another does not. So technically, it is not synergism but human monergism. Ultimately this theology looks to something one person does that another (the unbeliever) does not have the capacity to do. And thus the danger of synergistic theology which ultimately leads to "God, when you extended your grace to all men some did not make use of it, BUT I DID." :AMR:

No one can say, "Jesus is Lord," except by the Holy Spirit, and no one can believe the gospel unless God grants it. Now why do you suppose God grants you something and not your neighbor? Try to formulate a reason that escapes making God to be a debtor. There is but one answer: Considering zero perceived merit in what you would do or say, God set His preferences upon you (i.e., loved you) before you were even born from eternity.

But then to say in response that God loved all mankind in this same savingly efficacious manner is to declare Him impotent at best, a liar at worst, for not all are saved. To then go on to say, "well, not all obeyed, cooperated, etc., and God is not forcing anyone" is to say that God's saving preferences upon those that He loved before time is at the mercy of these objects of His love, to which God must repay for their obedience, cooperation, etc. God is not wringing His hands hoping for those that He has set His sights upon to come around to His way of thinking. God is not restricting His sovereignty to preserve your precious libertarian free will and thereby making Himself contingently liable to your fickle decisions.

When God decides to save someone do you honestly in your heart of hearts think you can do anything to thwart Him? I hope your answer will be "of course not". This then begs the ultimate question you and others are dancing around, "Why you, and not your neighbor?" There is but one answer to the question that maximally glorifies God: God specifically chose you and not your neighbor.

AMR


Jesus told the disciples to go into ALL OF THE WORLD and preach the Gospel. He didn't say go into the world and preach the Gospel to the elect. He said, "Go into the world and preach the Gospel to every creature" meaning to everyone.

If God so loves the world that he gives his only begotten Son for the sins of the world, John 3:16. Then it makes sense that he would provide salvation for the whole world, 1 John 2:2.

God chose all of humanity in his Son Jesus Christ. If he did not make salvation available for all he would not be just. 'Choose this day whom you will serve" The choice is ours. We can chose to be saved or we can chose not to be saved.

musterion
October 28th, 2015, 10:33 AM
Jesus told the disciples to go into ALL OF THE WORLD and preach the Gospel. He didn't say go into the world and preach the Gospel to the elect. He said, "Go into the world and preach the Gospel to every creature" meaning to everyone.

If God so loves the world that he gives his only begotten Son for the sins of the world, John 3:16. Then it makes sense that he would provide salvation for the whole world, 1 John 2:2.

God chose all of humanity in his Son Jesus Christ. If he did not make salvation available for all he would not be just. 'Choose this day whom you will serve" The choice is ours. We can chose to be saved or we can chose not to be saved.

Yeah but see, Pate, only the elect need to decide this day who they're going to serve.

Wait, no they don't. The elect have been eternally preordained to irresistibly choose God sooner or later without having any choice in the matter. So he clearly wasn't talking to the elect.

So it must be the reprobates who have to choose this day whom they're going to serve.

No, that won't work either: they will never be called and enabled to serve God, so Christ can't be talking about them.

Well, that can only mean Christ is talking to everyone, elect and reprobate alike, each of whom has the choice of choosing this day whom he will serve.

No, sorry, that won't work either. No one has the free will to choose that without God's enabling, so Christ clearly could not have meant they actually have a choice to make, as that would be a lie.

I guess this means we can just check the whole Bible if Calvinism is true because the words of Christ can't logically apply to anybody.

beloved57
October 28th, 2015, 10:45 AM
Jesus told the disciples to go into ALL OF THE WORLD and preach the Gospel. He didn't say go into the world and preach the Gospel to the elect. He said, "Go into the world and preach the Gospel to every creature" meaning to everyone.

If God so loves the world that he gives his only begotten Son for the sins of the world, John 3:16. Then it makes sense that he would provide salvation for the whole world, 1 John 2:2.

God chose all of humanity in his Son Jesus Christ. If he did not make salvation available for all he would not be just. 'Choose this day whom you will serve" The choice is ours. We can chose to be saved or we can chose not to be saved.

Invalid comments not supported by scripture!

nikolai_42
October 28th, 2015, 11:18 AM
Yeah but see, Pate, only the elect need to decide this day who they're going to serve.

Wait, no they don't. The elect have been eternally preordained to irresistibly choose God sooner or later without having any choice in the matter. So he clearly wasn't talking to the elect.

So it must be the reprobates who have to choose this day whom they're going to serve.

No, that won't work either: they will never be called and enabled to serve God, so Christ can't be talking about them.

Well, that can only mean Christ is talking to everyone, elect and reprobate alike, each of whom has the choice of choosing this day whom he will serve.

No, sorry, that won't work either. No one has the free will to choose that without God's enabling, so Christ clearly could not have meant they actually have a choice to make, as that would be a lie.

I guess this means we can just check the whole Bible if Calvinism is true because the words of Christ can't logically apply to anybody.

This sounds kind of anachronistic - to me, at least. Or maybe anachronistic isn't the word. Confusing eternal and temporal states. Remember, Christ spoke of His sheep as His - that they would not follow another. But He also said that if one of His sheep does stray He would go after it. These sheep are sheep and that's all they've ever been -- TO HIM. So we are left with two vantage points that cannot speak of the same things the same way. One's life to God is set and fixed even before it happens. He inhabits eternity. There is no temporal unknown to Him. To man, he simply cannot make the same assertions BASED ONLY ON HIS LIMITED UNDERSTANDING. So when we have a Sovereign God making statements that speak of choice and other statements that speak of predestination, it isn't right to look at the eternal in terms of the temporal. We are forced to look at it from the temporal view, but we have to recognize that that temporality is a limitation. The eternal is the lens through which we view the temporal. And since we aren't able to do that naturally, we need to take those eternal statements God gives as (in a sense) more true than the temporal. That is, they are fuller - not in part, but complete expressions of reality. But as temporal beings, we can only properly and directly relate to uncertainty (because that is where God has placed us). But in Him, all His promises are yea and amen. They are certain even though not yet seen in time.

It seems to me that Calvinism attempts to frame things from God's perspective and Arminianism from man's.

False Prophet
October 28th, 2015, 11:24 AM
They choose to deny God. So God gives them over to retro-bate minds, because they reject the knowledge of the truth so as to be saved; God sends over them a deluding influence, so that they will believe a lie.
But since the beginning of the world those things have been easy to understand by what God has made. So people have no excuse for the bad things they do. 21 They knew God, but they did not give glory to God or thank him. Their thinking became useless. Their foolish minds were filled with darkness. 22 They said they were wise, but they became fools. 23 They traded the glory of God who lives forever for the worship of idols made to look like earthly people, birds, animals, and snakes.

24 Because they did these things, God left them and let them go their sinful way, wanting only to do evil. As a result, they became full of sexual sin, using their bodies wrongly with each other. 25 They traded the truth of God for a lie. They worshiped and served what had been created instead of the God who created those things, who should be praised forever. Amen.
Ro 1 NCV

Robert Pate
October 28th, 2015, 02:48 PM
Yeah but see, Pate, only the elect need to decide this day who they're going to serve.

Wait, no they don't. The elect have been eternally preordained to irresistibly choose God sooner or later without having any choice in the matter. So he clearly wasn't talking to the elect.

So it must be the reprobates who have to choose this day whom they're going to serve.

No, that won't work either: they will never be called and enabled to serve God, so Christ can't be talking about them.

Well, that can only mean Christ is talking to everyone, elect and reprobate alike, each of whom has the choice of choosing this day whom he will serve.

No, sorry, that won't work either. No one has the free will to choose that without God's enabling, so Christ clearly could not have meant they actually have a choice to make, as that would be a lie.

I guess this means we can just check the whole Bible if Calvinism is true because the words of Christ can't logically apply to anybody.

Yea, might as well throw the Bible in the trash.

beloved57
October 28th, 2015, 02:57 PM
Yea, might as well throw the Bible in the trash.

Same goes for you!

Robert Pate
October 28th, 2015, 03:00 PM
Same goes for you!

Calvinism makes a sham out of the Bible.

beloved57
October 28th, 2015, 03:12 PM
Calvinism makes a sham out of the Bible.

As stated above Calvinism is the Gospel of Gods Grace in Christ!

musterion
October 28th, 2015, 03:20 PM
Same goes for you!

You reported me for calling you an idiot and now you say Pate is trash.

beloved57
October 28th, 2015, 03:49 PM
You reported me for calling you an idiot and now you say Pate is trash.

You are now lying on me, I never called pate trash, pate stated to someone that they may as well throw their bible in the trash, and I posted that he should also do the same throw his in the trash ! So you made a false accusation just now and should apologize !

musterion
October 28th, 2015, 03:51 PM
Rhetorical flimflammery.

Obey, cooperate, distinctions without a difference

Paul warns that all who do not obey the Gospel are damned (2 Thess 1:8).

Do you believe that?

Because that is ALL that I did...I obeyed it.

How does one obey it? By just believing it. Sola fide, ever heard of it?

The Gospel itself is the power of God unto salvation, not whether one thinks God must give the faith through which a sinner is saved or whether one believes He's given that capacity (and responsibility!) to all, whether they believe or not.

So tell the truth: what is the reason you really think obeying the Gospel somehow amounts to helping Christ save ourselves whenever a non-Calvinist does it? Is it that you're doctrinally much closer to B57 than you want to admit: that faith in TULIP is how one knows and proves salvation, not in having believed the Gospel? Is that why I cannot recall you ever rebuking B57?

Ask Mr. Religion
October 28th, 2015, 06:39 PM
Jesus told the disciples to go into ALL OF THE WORLD and preach the Gospel. He didn't say go into the world and preach the Gospel to the elect. He said, "Go into the world and preach the Gospel to every creature" meaning to everyone.
And how do you see me disagreeing? The Commission is the means by which God's children are ordinarily brought into the Kingdom, for no one knows who the elect are, but God. Preaching the Good News is the means to which God's ends are made reality.

The rest of your post is but the same mistaken view of what world means in many places and what "It is finished" means as relates to the atonement of Our Lord.

AMR

Ask Mr. Religion
October 28th, 2015, 07:15 PM
Paul warns that all who do not obey the Gospel are damned (2 Thess 1:8).

Do you believe that?
Sure I do. I also believe that before I was re-born, I possessed zero ability to obey. Do you believe that?

Likely you do not, as you have been clear to cling to some sort of ability to choose wisely so that you can actually obey. Catch that last bit? Obedience follows the will; the mind choosing. No one obeys if they do not want to obey. Obedience is not some autonomic nerve function, like breathing, requiring no actual thought. Even when forced to obey at gunpoint, the obedience springs from a will to not endure something worse. So you need to find another tactic in hopes to escape the plain fact that you chose wisely and your neighbor did not.

I have been clear about this time and again. Let me try once more. It is my position that Scripture is perspicuous in its teachings that those not born-again (i.e., the unregenerate elect or the reprobate) are haters of God and not able (have no ability) to do anything pleasing to God, for they are in darkness and choose all that they do in life according to the darkness in which they dwell. Even the dropping of a coin in the beggar's cup or walking the old lady across the road is performed by these haters of God for selfish motives.


Is that why I cannot recall you ever rebuking B57?Then perhaps you should try to become more informed and not grasp at anything you think can be used to hold me to ridicule as you toady to the crowd and try to poison the well rather than actually attempting to account for your wise choices versus your neighbor's.

A small sampling...

http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4480197&postcount=531

http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4496535&postcount=338

http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4497347&postcount=360

http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4497696&postcount=366

http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4497956&postcount=379

http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4498865&postcount=393

http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4493655&postcount=380

http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4494206&postcount=386

http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4495521&postcount=320

http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4495714&postcount=332

Just sayin'. :AMR:

AMR

1Mind1Spirit
October 28th, 2015, 08:03 PM
And how do you see me disagreeing? The Commission is the means by which God's children are ordinarily brought into the Kingdom, for no one knows who the elect are, but God. Preaching the Good News is the means to which God's ends are made reality.

The rest of your post is but the same mistaken view of what world means in many places and what "It is finished" means as relates to the atonement of Our Lord.

AMR

Yes and he will rewind and do it again..... and again.........

beloved57
October 29th, 2015, 07:27 AM
Paul warns that all who do not obey the Gospel are damned (2 Thess 1:8).

Do you believe that?

Because that is ALL that I did...I obeyed it.

How does one obey it? By just believing it. Sola fide, ever heard of it?

The Gospel itself is the power of God unto salvation, not whether one thinks God must give the faith through which a sinner is saved or whether one believes He's given that capacity (and responsibility!) to all, whether they believe or not.

So tell the truth: what is the reason you really think obeying the Gospel somehow amounts to helping Christ save ourselves whenever a non-Calvinist does it? Is it that you're doctrinally much closer to B57 than you want to admit: that faith in TULIP is how one knows and proves salvation, not in having believed the Gospel? Is that why I cannot recall you ever rebuking B57?

Those Christ lived and died for are reconciled to God while they are enemies and unbelievers Rom 5:10 even while they don't believe or obey the Gospel!

Robert Pate
October 29th, 2015, 07:49 AM
And how do you see me disagreeing? The Commission is the means by which God's children are ordinarily brought into the Kingdom, for no one knows who the elect are, but God. Preaching the Good News is the means to which God's ends are made reality.

The rest of your post is but the same mistaken view of what world means in many places and what "It is finished" means as relates to the atonement of Our Lord.

AMR


If Jesus said, "Go into all of the world and preach the Gospel" then the whole world must be the elect. God chose all of humanity in Jesus Christ, Ephesians 1:4.

If God has determined that only "Some Certain Persons" will hear the Gospel and believe then you have an unjust God.

What Jesus meant when he said... "It is finished" He meant that he had provided salvation for the whole world, so that now... "Whosoever that shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved" Romans 10:13.

Robert Pate
October 29th, 2015, 07:55 AM
Those Christ lived and died for are reconciled to God while they are enemies and unbelievers Rom 5:10 even while they don't believe or obey the Gospel!

Sounds like a route to hell.

Reject Christ. Reject the Gospel. Live like a heathen and still be saved? There is nothing in the Bible that teachs that.

beloved57
October 29th, 2015, 07:56 AM
Sounds like a route to hell.

Reject Christ. Reject the Gospel. Live like a heathen and still be saved? There is nothing in the Bible that teachs that.

Christ has already endured their Hell !

Robert Pate
October 29th, 2015, 08:06 AM
Christ has already endured their Hell !

Like I said before.

Your doctrine is so far out in left field, that you are no longer in the game.

beloved57
October 29th, 2015, 08:09 AM
Like I said before.

Your doctrine is so far out in left field, that you are no longer in the game.

Those Christ lived and died for have no sins charged against them, Hell is the second death, death is the wages of sin Rom 6::23 !They can't go to Hell!

Robert Pate
October 29th, 2015, 08:23 AM
Those Christ lived and died for have no sins charged against them, Hell is the second death, death is the wages of sin Rom 6::23 !They can't go to Hell!

So you believe that a person can...

Reject the Bible.

Reject Christ.

Reject the Gospel.

Reject God.

Live like the devil and still be saved and go to heaven?

beloved57
October 29th, 2015, 08:40 AM
So you believe that a person can...

Reject the Bible.

Reject Christ.

Reject the Gospel.

Reject God.

Live like the devil and still be saved and go to heaven?

Did you read and understand the previous post?

nikolai_42
October 29th, 2015, 09:10 AM
So you believe that a person can...

Reject the Bible.

Reject Christ.

Reject the Gospel.

Reject God.

Live like the devil and still be saved and go to heaven?

Your inconsistency is showing...

First you put up statements like "Religion can't save" and talk about how anything one does is just their own works that can't save them. Then you mischaracterize a large number of people by saying they believe that you can do anything you want and still be saved - primarily because they believe that Christ does it all.

Which is it? What do people have to do? Remember, believing God is a work - even the work of God (John 6:29).

I am beginning that some people have a distaste for Reformed theology because it is consistent in its assertion that it doesn't require a man to work for his salvation where other systems say they don't require work but then come down on the sinner for failing to believe or failing to obey etc...

Reformed (and some other) people believe that there are requirements - but that they are fulfilled in us by Christ. So it is wrong to say they believe one can live like the devil and still go to heaven.

Another problem with that view is that it misses the whole point of heaven - the Lord is there. Those who are not regenerate will simply not want to be in His presence. But that's a slightly different issue.

Robert Pate
October 29th, 2015, 09:37 AM
Your inconsistency is showing...

First you put up statements like "Religion can't save" and talk about how anything one does is just their own works that can't save them. Then you mischaracterize a large number of people by saying they believe that you can do anything you want and still be saved - primarily because they believe that Christ does it all.

Which is it? What do people have to do? Remember, believing God is a work - even the work of God (John 6:29).

I am beginning that some people have a distaste for Reformed theology because it is consistent in its assertion that it doesn't require a man to work for his salvation where other systems say they don't require work but then come down on the sinner for failing to believe or failing to obey etc...

Reformed (and some other) people believe that there are requirements - but that they are fulfilled in us by Christ. So it is wrong to say they believe one can live like the devil and still go to heaven.

Another problem with that view is that it misses the whole point of heaven - the Lord is there. Those who are not regenerate will simply not want to be in His presence. But that's a slightly different issue.

The entrance into eternal life is through hearing and believing the Gospel.

"So then faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God" Romans 10:17. Which is the Gospel.

Those who hear and believe this Gospel are given the Holy Spirit, Galatians 3:2.

There is no regeneration without hearing and believing the Gospel.

It is the work of the Holy Spirit to convict us of our sins and our need for Christ.

nikolai_42
October 29th, 2015, 10:00 AM
The entrance into eternal life is through hearing and believing the Gospel.

"So then faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God" Romans 10:17. Which is the Gospel.

Those who hear and believe this Gospel are given the Holy Spirit, Galatians 3:2.

There is no regeneration without hearing and believing the Gospel.

It is the work of the Holy Spirit to convict us of our sins and our need for Christ.

All fairly general and agreeable. But think about it - you are saying that the determining factor in man's salvation is his own free, autonomous will. But John says this :

He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
John 1:11-13

It's amazing how this passage conveys two things that, on the surface, seem contradictory :

1. "To as many as received Him..." tells us there is a will of man at work here. This is not forced, pushed upon a robot who has no will. But ultimately...

2. "Which were born ...not...of the will of man..." tells us that this is God's work and His will. Admittedly there is something of an area of mystery here, but both are true. Man is not forced to believe but God's will governs.

Those who believed did so according to an agreeable will. Was it their own? Because it was freely done, man has to believe it was of him. But that is his own perspective. On the other hand we are told what the truth of it is - what is the fundamental reality of the situation - that these were born not of man's will, not of the will of the flesh but of God. This birth is spiritual and ultimately is His will being carried out. Man clearly does not carry the swing vote on the matter. This is clearly of Him. But man thinks it is of him because they (that is, those who do receive him) receive him freely and gladly.

Robert Pate
October 29th, 2015, 10:29 AM
All fairly general and agreeable. But think about it - you are saying that the determining factor in man's salvation is his own free, autonomous will. But John says this :

He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
John 1:11-13

It's amazing how this passage conveys two things that, on the surface, seem contradictory :

1. "To as many as received Him..." tells us there is a will of man at work here. This is not forced, pushed upon a robot who has no will. But ultimately...

2. "Which were born ...not...of the will of man..." tells us that this is God's work and His will. Admittedly there is something of an area of mystery here, but both are true. Man is not forced to believe but God's will governs.

Those who believed did so according to an agreeable will. Was it their own? Because it was freely done, man has to believe it was of him. But that is his own perspective. On the other hand we are told what the truth of it is - what is the fundamental reality of the situation - that these were born not of man's will, not of the will of the flesh but of God. This birth is spiritual and ultimately is His will being carried out. Man clearly does not carry the swing vote on the matter. This is clearly of Him. But man thinks it is of him because they (that is, those who do receive him) receive him freely and gladly.

The Holy Spirit works in the lives of people to bring them to Christ.

On the day of Pentecost when the Gospel came into the world in the power of the Holy Spirit, thousands heard and believed, Acts 2:41 also Acts 4:4.

It was a supernatural thing. Some of those who heard and believed had participated in the crucifixon of Christ, Acts 2:36.

If God chose some to hear and believe and withheld it from some, then you have an unjust God that cannot be trusted.

nikolai_42
October 29th, 2015, 10:40 AM
The Holy Spirit works in the lives of people to bring them to Christ.

On the day of Pentecost when the Gospel came into the world in the power of the Holy Spirit, thousands heard and believed, Acts 2:41 also Acts 4:4.

It was a supernatural thing. Some of those who heard and believed had participated in the crucifixon of Christ, Acts 2:36.

If God chose some to hear and believe and withheld it from some, then you have an unjust God that cannot be trusted.

Is God obligated to offer eternal life to everyone?

beloved57
October 29th, 2015, 10:40 AM
The Holy Spirit works in the lives of people to bring them to Christ.

On the day of Pentecost when the Gospel came into the world in the power of the Holy Spirit, thousands heard and believed, Acts 2:41 also Acts 4:4.

It was a supernatural thing. Some of those who heard and believed had participated in the crucifixon of Christ, Acts 2:36.

If God chose some to hear and believe and withheld it from some, then you have an unjust God that cannot be trusted.

Blaspheme against God !

beloved57
October 29th, 2015, 10:42 AM
The entrance into eternal life is through hearing and believing the Gospel.

"So then faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God" Romans 10:17. Which is the Gospel.

Those who hear and believe this Gospel are given the Holy Spirit, Galatians 3:2.

There is no regeneration without hearing and believing the Gospel.

It is the work of the Holy Spirit to convict us of our sins and our need for Christ.

One cannot Hear the Words of God unless they are of God Jn 8:47

47 He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.

fishrovmen
October 29th, 2015, 01:29 PM
If Jesus said, "Go into all of the world and preach the Gospel" then the whole world must be the elect. God chose all of humanity in Jesus Christ, Ephesians 1:4.



All of the "Us's" and "We's" in Ephesians are Christians.


No contradiction.
:confused:

Robert Pate
October 29th, 2015, 02:36 PM
Is God obligated to offer eternal life to everyone?

Absolutly, If God did not offer eternal life to all he would not be just.

nikolai_42
October 29th, 2015, 02:45 PM
Absolutly, If God did not offer eternal life to all he would not be just.

Therefore...if God isn't merciful, then He isn't being just...???

Or is it...therefore...if God doesn't offer mercy to everyone, He isn't being just...???

Robert Pate
October 29th, 2015, 02:55 PM
Therefore...if God isn't merciful, then He isn't being just...???

Or is it...therefore...if God doesn't offer mercy to everyone, He isn't being just...???

If God loves the world doesn't it make sense that he would provide salvation for the whole world?

nikolai_42
October 29th, 2015, 03:19 PM
If God loves the world doesn't it make sense that he would provide salvation for the whole world?

Not necessarily. You are showing that your basis for the way you interpret such scriptures as John 3:16 is your own ideas rather than questioning them. Not quite the same approach that Paul took :

Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
Romans 9:21-23

Paul sees God's Sovereignty as being worth preserving - even at the expense of man's autonomy :

For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect?
God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.
But if our unrighteousness commend the righteousness of God, what shall we say? Is God unrighteous who taketh vengeance? (I speak as a man)
God forbid: for then how shall God judge the world?
For if the truth of God hath more abounded through my lie unto his glory; why yet am I also judged as a sinner?
And not rather, (as we be slanderously reported, and as some affirm that we say,) Let us do evil, that good may come? whose damnation is just.
Romans 3:3-8

And consider that mercy, in some cases, may be NOT offering that which God knows beforehand will be rejected :

And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.
But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.
Luke 12:47-48

Remember...the ultimate goal here is NOT the salvation of man - but rather the culmination of all things in Christ :

Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
Philippians 2:9-11

Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:
That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:
Ephesians 1:9-10

Unless one asserts that all will be saved, the goal is not ultimately the salvation of men - that is only part of His work. It is His glory.

The Lord is good to all: and his tender mercies are over all his works.
All thy works shall praise thee, O Lord; and thy saints shall bless thee.
Psalm 145:9-10

If one calls a mere offer "tender mercies", then that is a rather hollow mercy for the Almighty to be credited with. It's like an earthly father watching his earthly son destroy himself on drugs but not do anything because the son never accepts his offer of help. God's hand is much mightier than that and His purposes go well beyond our will.

Surely the wrath of man shall praise thee: the remainder of wrath shalt thou restrain.
Psalm 76:10

God's end here is that all things redound to His praise and glory. And if that means the damnation of some, how is that unjust? Are any righteous? And if His mercy is undeserved, does not God have the right to do with what is His?

So...short of an actual unfettered universalism...salvation of man is only a part of the plan and not the ultimate goal. It isn't about you or me.

Robert Pate
October 29th, 2015, 03:34 PM
Not necessarily. You are showing that your basis for the way you interpret such scriptures as John 3:16 is your own ideas rather than questioning them. Not quite the same approach that Paul took :

Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
Romans 9:21-23

Paul sees God's Sovereignty as being worth preserving - even at the expense of man's autonomy :

For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect?
God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.
But if our unrighteousness commend the righteousness of God, what shall we say? Is God unrighteous who taketh vengeance? (I speak as a man)
God forbid: for then how shall God judge the world?
For if the truth of God hath more abounded through my lie unto his glory; why yet am I also judged as a sinner?
And not rather, (as we be slanderously reported, and as some affirm that we say,) Let us do evil, that good may come? whose damnation is just.
Romans 3:3-8

And consider that mercy, in some cases, may be NOT offering that which God knows beforehand will be rejected :

And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.
But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.
Luke 12:47-48

Remember...the ultimate goal here is NOT the salvation of man - but rather the culmination of all things in Christ :

Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
Philippians 2:9-11

Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:
That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:
Ephesians 1:9-10

Unless one asserts that all will be saved, the goal is not ultimately the salvation of men - that is only part of His work. It is His glory.

The Lord is good to all: and his tender mercies are over all his works.
All thy works shall praise thee, O Lord; and thy saints shall bless thee.
Psalm 145:9-10

If one calls a mere offer "tender mercies", then that is a rather hollow mercy for the Almighty to be credited with. It's like an earthly father watching his earthly son destroy himself on drugs but not do anything because the son never accepts his offer of help. God's hand is much mightier than that and His purposes go well beyond our will.

Surely the wrath of man shall praise thee: the remainder of wrath shalt thou restrain.
Psalm 76:10

God's end here is that all things redound to His praise and glory. And if that means the damnation of some, how is that unjust? Are any righteous? And if His mercy is undeserved, does not God have the right to do with what is His?

So...short of an actual unfettered universalism...salvation of man is only a part of the plan and not the ultimate goal. It isn't about you or me.


You have swallowed the false Calvinist doctrine that men are sinners by their own free will.

The Bible teaches no such thing. Men are sinners because Adam brought sin upon humanity, Romans 5:12.

We are all born into sin. We are all sinners without works. You can no more make yourself a sinner than you can make yourself righteous.

Just as a man is a sinner without works, so is he saved without works. "For as by one man's obedience many shall be MADE righteous" Romans 5:19.

Because of the doing and the dying of Jesus God has reconciled the whole world unto himself, 2 Corinthians 5:19 so that now, "Whosoever that shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved" Romans 10:13.

musterion
October 29th, 2015, 03:42 PM
Is God obligated to offer eternal life to everyone?

"Obliged" is needlessly philosophical and beside the point. The truth is that He has indeed offered it to all, as proven by the fact that He damns everyone who might have accepted His grace in Christ but decides not to.

nikolai_42
October 29th, 2015, 03:44 PM
You have swallowed the false Calvinist doctrine that men are sinners by their own free will.

Um....I don't think that's a Calvinist teaching - nor do I believe it myself. In fact, that's a fairly Arminian belief. But they do teach that fallen man naturally loves his sin - not that he just is caught up in something he doesn't want.


The Bible teaches no such thing. Men are sinners because Adam brought sin upon humanity, Romans 5:12.

We are all born into sin. We are all sinners without works. You can no more make yourself a sinner than you can make yourself righteous.

Just as a man is a sinner without works, so is he saved without works. "For as by one man's obedience many shall be MADE righteous" Romans 5:19.

Because of the doing and the dying of Jesus God has reconciled the whole world unto himself, 2 Corinthians 5:19 so that now, "Whosoever that shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved" Romans 10:13.

Nothing there to seriously disagree with...makes me more certain you are importing assumptions like it seems you did requiring God to equally offer salvation to the whole world.

nikolai_42
October 29th, 2015, 04:02 PM
"Obliged" is needlessly philosophical and beside the point. The truth is that He has indeed offered it to all, as proven by the fact that He damns everyone who might have accepted His grace in Christ but decides not to.

Robert was arguing God being just - and His justice requiring all men to have the same opportunity for salvation. Thus, His justice (in that setup) obligates Him to do so. The verses I quoted in Romans above show ("What if God...") show that He is under no such obligation. Even if He has, indeed, offered it to all (in some sense), there is still nothing saying the offer is equally offered to all men. For some, it may be that God simply lets them hear the offer once and never again. For others, they may have decades of repeated opportunities. If the man who hears it once is not predisposed or prepared to hear it when he does, is God unjust for not letting him really grasp the importance of it? If he has ears but cannot hear, was his opportunity the same as that of the one who has been given many "offers" with far more efficacy? If the first man was never going to hear the gospel (spiritually) without having his eyes opened first (and God never does that), what does that say about the "offer"?

That, I think, is the point. God is dealing with unseen things about us that even we can't see (much of the time, I believe). The Calvinist has simply said that unless God does the work, no one will be saved. The conversions of men like the apostle Paul and the persistent infidelity of men who have been exposed to the gospel for a lifetime I think bear that out. It comes down to God opening the ears, the eyes and the heart and bringing a man to a place where he can do nothing but trust Christ. The Calvinist says he isn't saved before that happens. The non-Calvinist says the man has to make a choice. I don't think there is much of a choice at that point. I believe that anyone brought to that conviction and full awareness of utter moral and spiritual need (depravity) when shown the reality of salvation in Christ (alone) by faith (alone) is brought to trust in Him like a man falling off a cliff trusts in his parachute. Only someone who simply doesn't know the full implications of his situation would be so foolish as not to trust Him. They are forced to the conclusion so that there really is no choice. It is not a matter of choosing. Once they "see" and "hear", they have already been brought to that place of what we see as resignation in the disciples :

Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away?
Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life.
And we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God.
Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?
John 6:67-70

Men naturally resist the Spirit of God. It is only by His grace that they seek Him.

Then came the Jews round about him, and said unto him, How long dost thou make us to doubt? If thou be the Christ, tell us plainly.
Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me.
But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
John 10:24-29

The Jews were "seeking", but they weren't His. By His own admission, Christ's "offer" to these Jews would have been ineffectual. The offer, then, is simply for the purpose of damning some unless God cannot know who is His and who isn't.

Robert Pate
October 29th, 2015, 04:24 PM
Robert was arguing God being just - and His justice requiring all men to have the same opportunity for salvation. Thus, His justice (in that setup) obligates Him to do so. The verses I quoted in Romans above show ("What if God...") show that He is under no such obligation. Even if He has, indeed, offered it to all (in some sense), there is still nothing saying the offer is equally offered to all men. For some, it may be that God simply lets them hear the offer once and never again. For others, they may have decades of repeated opportunities. If the man who hears it once is not predisposed or prepared to hear it when he does, is God unjust for not letting him really grasp the importance of it? If he has ears but cannot hear, was his opportunity the same as that of the one who has been given many "offers" with far more efficacy? If the first man was never going to hear the gospel (spiritually) without having his eyes opened first (and God never does that), what does that say about the "offer"?

That, I think, is the point. God is dealing with unseen things about us that even we can't see (much of the time, I believe). The Calvinist has simply said that unless God does the work, no one will be saved. The conversions of men like the apostle Paul and the persistent infidelity of men who have been exposed to the gospel for a lifetime I think bear that out. It comes down to God opening the ears, the eyes and the heart and bringing a man to a place where he can do nothing but trust Christ. The Calvinist says he isn't saved before that happens. The non-Calvinist says the man has to make a choice. I don't think there is much of a choice at that point. I believe that anyone brought to that conviction and full awareness of utter moral and spiritual need (depravity) when shown the reality of salvation in Christ (alone) by faith (alone) is brought to trust in Him like a man falling off a cliff trusts in his parachute. Only someone who simply doesn't know the full implications of his situation would be so foolish as not to trust Him. They are forced to the conclusion so that there really is no choice. It is not a matter of choosing. Once they "see" and "hear", they have already been brought to that place of what we see as resignation in the disciples :

Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away?
Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life.
And we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God.
Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?
John 6:67-70

Men naturally resist the Spirit of God. It is only by His grace that they seek Him.

Then came the Jews round about him, and said unto him, How long dost thou make us to doubt? If thou be the Christ, tell us plainly.
Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me.
But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
John 10:24-29

The Jews were "seeking", but they weren't His. By His own admission, Christ's "offer" to these Jews would have been ineffectual. The offer, then, is simply for the purpose of damning some unless God cannot know who is His and who isn't.

The twelve were especially chosen by Christ to take the Gospel to the world. They were like prophets.

It is not correct teaching to say that we are in the same boat with the apostles. They were special.

All scripture is for us, but not all scripture is to us. Much of what Jesus said to the apostles was for them and not for us.

Same thing with Jesus encounter with the unbelieving Pharisees. They didn't know who he really was. Many that participated in the crucifixon of Christ were saved on the day of Pentecost, Acts 2:36.

musterion
October 29th, 2015, 04:44 PM
The verses I quoted in Romans above show ("What if God...") show that He is under no such obligation.

If you're referring to Romans 9, no. That's just part of Paul's sub-treatise which anticipates the obvious question any Jew or knowledgeable proselyte was certain to ask after reading the first eight chapters: "But what about Israel?"

nikolai_42
October 30th, 2015, 06:42 AM
The twelve were especially chosen by Christ to take the Gospel to the world. They were like prophets.

It is not correct teaching to say that we are in the same boat with the apostles. They were special.

All scripture is for us, but not all scripture is to us. Much of what Jesus said to the apostles was for them and not for us.

You've just contradicted yourself. Is all scripture for us or not?


Same thing with Jesus encounter with the unbelieving Pharisees. They didn't know who he really was. Many that participated in the crucifixon of Christ were saved on the day of Pentecost, Acts 2:36.

So we should read John 3:16 as universally applicable but John 10:25-29 as only spoken of in the context of ancient Israel?

And don't forget there's a huge camel to swallow if everyone is supposed to be the same to God but you then say Israel is elect. Even if not, you seem to be very close to espousing a dispensational creed...

nikolai_42
October 30th, 2015, 06:51 AM
If you're referring to Romans 9, no. That's just part of Paul's sub-treatise which anticipates the obvious question any Jew or knowledgeable proselyte was certain to ask after reading the first eight chapters: "But what about Israel?"

I don't see Paul making that distinction in this chapter. That is, his comments are not confined to Israel (after the flesh) here.

What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
Romans 9:22-24

And verse 6 famously says they are not all Israel that are of Israel with verse 8 defining Israel as children of the promise. That selectivity is used to illustrate the point - "I will have mercy upon whom I will have mercy..."

beloved57
October 30th, 2015, 08:05 AM
Does God Create Reprobates?

Yes, God made some people for the purpose of being born to be destroyed as beasts 2 Pet 2:12

12 But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;

Only their destruction is everlasting 2 Thess 1:9

Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

Thats why they were born into this world by the will of God !

Shasta
October 30th, 2015, 02:18 PM
Yes, God made some people for the purpose of being born to be destroyed as beasts 2 Pet 2:12

12 But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;

Only their destruction is everlasting 2 Thess 1:9

Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

Thats why they were born into this world by the will of God !

The word “made” used by the King James in 2 Peter 2:12 gives the false impression that God shaped and designed these people for the purpose of destroying them. However, the Greek word translated “made” is γεγεννημένα gegennenemena which means “having been born.”

http://biblehub.com/interlinear/2_peter/2-12.htm

This is reflected in virtually all other translations, for example:

English Standard Version
But these, like irrational animals, creatures of instinct, born to be caught and destroyed, blaspheming about matters of which they are ignorant, will also be destroyed in their destruction,

New American Standard Bible
But these, like unreasoning animals, born as creatures of instinct to be captured and killed, reviling where they have no knowledge, will in the destruction of those creatures also be destroyed,

So their character is a consequence of birth followed by a process of corruption. Since all men are born devoid of the Spirit of God (i.e., spiritually dead) God need not do anything to prepare us for destruction. We are already prepared. In fact, the term “creatures of instinct” means that their character is determined by unrestrained natural drives and instincts (1 Corinthians 2:14, Romans 8:7)

We also have to consider what KIND of animal Peter referring to in this analogy. The term translated "brute (or unreasoning) beasts" means a wild animal (theria) as opposed to than a domesticated one.

http://www.biblestudytools.com/commentaries/robertsons-word-pictures/2-peter/2-peter-2-12.html

Also, since Peter is primarily talking about false teachers the image would be one of a predator who was engaged killing and eating sheep. When such an animal is finally caught the only thing that would be done with them in that culture would be to destroy them.

Though the end of the road for such a person is certain destruction this does not necessarily mean the individual will not turn and repent. Paul was a persecutor of the Church and an enemy of the cross but he repented. We are all born of the flesh and "the child born of the flesh" tends to persecute the "child of promise." Nevertheless many enemies of the gospel have repented.

Before we are born of the Spirit and our lives reflect the characteristics of an enemy of God. After presenting a list of such characteristics - sexual immorality, idolatry, adultery, homosexuality, drunkenness - Paul goes on to say, “Such WERE some of YOU” (2 Corinthians 6:10-11). We too had characteristics that marked us for destruction and hopefully we have truly repented and believed in Jesus.

2 Peter 2:12 when examined closely does not serve the purpose for which you have tried to use it. It does NOT prove that men are raised in God’s slaughterhouse for the sole purpose of being destroyed, (something which somehow is supposed to glorify God). If that were the case then there would be no reason for God to weep crocodile tears over those He has predestined to be destroyed (Matthew 23:37). In fact, since the non-elect are already "fitted for destruction" that final end, or even the contemplation of it should be an occasion for rejoicing as it marks the completion of God's purpose for them. In fact, though, God does not rejoice. He acts as if He does not want it to happen. He says clearly that He would rather people turn to Him than for them to die in their sins (Ezekiel 33:11).

beloved57
October 30th, 2015, 02:27 PM
The word “made” used by the King James in 2 Peter 2:12 gives the false impression that God shaped and designed these people for the purpose of destroying them. However, the Greek word translated “made” is γεγεννημένα gegennenemena which means “having been born.”

http://biblehub.com/interlinear/2_peter/2-12.htm

This is reflected in virtually all other translations, for example:

English Standard Version
But these, like irrational animals, creatures of instinct, born to be caught and destroyed, blaspheming about matters of which they are ignorant, will also be destroyed in their destruction,

New American Standard Bible
But these, like unreasoning animals, born as creatures of instinct to be captured and killed, reviling where they have no knowledge, will in the destruction of those creatures also be destroyed,

So their character is a consequence of birth followed by a process of corruption. Since all men are born devoid of the Spirit of God (i.e., spiritually dead) God need not do anything to prepare us for destruction. We are already prepared.

The term “creatures of instinct” means that their character is determined by unrestrained natural drives and instincts (1 Corinthians 2:14, Romans 8:7)

We also have to consider what KIND of animal Peter referring to in this analogy. The term translated "brute (or unreasoning) beasts" means a wild animal (theria) as opposed to than a domesticated one.

http://www.biblestudytools.com/commentaries/robertsons-word-pictures/2-peter/2-peter-2-12.html

Also, since Peter is primarily talking about false teachers the image would be one of a predator who was engaged killing and eating sheep. When such an animal is finally caught the only thing that would be done with them in that culture would be to destroy them.

Though the end of the road for such a person is certain destruction this does not necessarily the individual will not turn and repent. Paul was a persecutor of the Church and an enemy of the cross but he repented. We are all born of the flesh and "the child born of the flesh" tends to persecute the "child of promise." Nevertheless many enemies of the gospel have repented.

Before we are born of the Spirit and our lives reflect the characteristics of an enemy of God. After presenting a list of such characteristics - sexual immorality, idolatry, adultery, homosexuality, drunkenness - Paul goes on to say, “Such WERE some of YOU” (2 Corinthians 6:10-11). We too had characteristics that marked us for destruction and hopefully we have truly repented and believed in Jesus.

2 Peter 2:12 when examined closely does not serve the purpose for which you have tried to use it. It does NOT prove that men are raised in God’s slaughterhouse for the sole purpose of being destroyed, (something which somehow is supposed to glorify God). If that were the case then there would be no reason for God to weep crocodile tears over those He has predestined to be destroyed (Matthew 23:37). In fact, since the non-elect are already "fitted for destruction" that final end, or even the contemplation of it should be an occasion for rejoicing as it marks the completion of God's purpose for them. In fact, though, God does rejoice. He acts as if He does not want it to happen. He says clearly that He would rather people turn to Him than for them to die in their sins (Ezekiel 33:11).

They were born to be taken and be destroyed! Men by nature are but beast a wise man wrote Ecc 3:18 !

Shasta
October 30th, 2015, 08:16 PM
They were born to be taken and be destroyed! Men by nature are but beast a wise man wrote Ecc 3:18 !

ALL men are naturally born before they are spiritually born. In that state they are sometimes compared to animals because they possess the life of the body and spirit (in common with animals) but not the eternal life of the spirit. Despite that fact, God loves us and wants us all to be saved.

Jesus went to the cross specifically so that He could offer His life to anyone who believes including the worst of sinners. The value of His sacrifice was so great that it was sufficient to purchase redemption for all of mankind. In practice, however, it is efficacious for only the minority who believe.

"we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Savior of all people, especially of those who believe (1 Timothy 4:10).

"All people" means all mankind" not just the elect. We know this because the next phrase says He is the savior ESPECIALLY (particularly or specifically) to "those who believe" Those are the people who actually believe and receive eternal life.

If your view is true then this world for most people is intended to be a holding pen where God keeps people like livestock constrained by deterministic reprobation until the time comes for them to enter His slaughterhouse and endure eternal torment. All I can say is you and your God must certainly be haters of mankind.

beloved57
October 30th, 2015, 08:20 PM
ALL men are naturally born before they are spiritually born. In that state they are sometimes compared to animals because they possess the life of the body and spirit (in common with animals) but not the eternal life of the spirit. Despite that fact, God loves us and wants us all to be saved.

Jesus went to the cross specifically so that He could offer His life to anyone who believes including the worst of sinners. The value of His sacrifice was so great that it was sufficient to purchase redemption for all of mankind. In practice, however, it is efficacious for only the minority who believe.

"we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Savior of all people, especially of those who believe (1 Timothy 4:10).

"All people" means all mankind" not just the elect. We know this because the next phrase says He is the savior ESPECIALLY (particularly or specifically) to "those who believe" Those are the people who actually believe and receive eternal life.

If your view is true then this world for most people is intended to be a holding pen where God keeps people like livestock constrained by deterministic reprobation until the time comes for them to enter His slaughterhouse and endure eternal torment. All I can say is you and your God must certainly be haters of mankind.

Your problem is that you don't and can't believe the scriptures! And you are blashpeming the True God!

Shasta
October 31st, 2015, 07:42 AM
Your problem is that you don't and can't believe the scriptures! And you are blashpeming the True God!

You never answer when scriptures are presented to you. Instead, you repeat your dogmas as if mere repetition were persuasive. You might as well say a series of "Hail Calvins" on your predestinarian rosary. It would be as persuasive.

In my last two posts I argued that your idea that God makes people for the sole purpose of destroying them is not only unscriptural but abominable. It is an affront to both the love and justice of God.

When you implied that God made people to be fitting recipients of judgement. I replied that 2 Peter 2:12 uses the word "born" not made. This shows that the false teachers Peter was talking about came to be the way they were (prepared for judgement) by the circumstances of their birth followed by a willful pattern of choices that led to deeper corruption. However, even this did not mean that their status was unchangeable as you assumed it was.

Second, you cited scriptures showing how man can behave as beasts. Well the world of men is in desperate condition. Fallen men (including believers before they are converted) are alienated from the life of God through sin. In his natural state men lack spiritual life but ONLY the life of God can help him transcend the conditions of his birth...but that is precisely why Jesus came (John 10:10).

I cited 1 Timothy 4:10 which declares that Christ is the savior of all men (in that He died for all) though the cross is only effectual to those who believe.

Regarding this you said nothing.

You have called me a blasphemer but it is you who have portrayed God as bringing people into existence, denying them saving grace and then pre-determining that they should go to the eternal fires of hell. According to you the majority of humanity is born for slaughter. You have twisted scriptures in such a way as to nullify God's love for mankind. God, like Allah, only loves that small part of humanity that loves Him.

beloved57
October 31st, 2015, 08:03 AM
You never answer when scriptures are presented to you. Instead, you repeat your dogmas as if mere repetition were persuasive. You might as well say a series of "Hail Calvins" on your predestinarian rosary. It would be as persuasive.

In my last two posts I argued that your idea that God makes people for the sole purpose of destroying them is not only unscriptural but abominable. It is an affront to both the love and justice of God.

When you implied that God made people to be fitting recipients of judgement. I replied that 2 Peter 2:12 uses the word "born" not made. This shows that the false teachers Peter was talking about came to be the way they were (prepared for judgement) by the circumstances of their birth followed by a willful pattern of choices that led to deeper corruption. However, even this did not mean that their status was unchangeable as you assumed it was.

Second, you cited scriptures showing how man can behave as beasts. Well the world of men is in desperate condition. Fallen men (including believers before they are converted) are alienated from the life of God through sin. In his natural state men lack spiritual life but ONLY the life of God can help him transcend the conditions of his birth...but that is precisely why Jesus came (John 10:10).

I cited 1 Timothy 4:10 which declares that Christ is the savior of all men (in that He died for all) though the cross is only effectual to those who believe.

Regarding this you said nothing.

You have called me a blasphemer but it is you who have portrayed God as bringing people into existence, denying them saving grace and then pre-determining that they should go to the eternal fires of hell. According to you the majority of humanity is born for slaughter. You have twisted scriptures in such a way as to nullify God's love for mankind. God, like Allah, only loves that small part of humanity that loves Him.

You are responsible for the scriptures you quote, not me, I am not your flunky! The scripture i quote I take responsibility for them, not the scriptures you quote!

daqq
October 31st, 2015, 08:14 AM
They were born to be taken and be destroyed! Men by nature are but beast a wise man wrote Ecc 3:18 !

Essentially your doctrine takes your own (first-born) vessel of spirit, that is, your own "old man" or "Esau man" nature, (with a mind of the flesh and fitted for destruction) and blames your old man nature on someone else, (a different lump of clay besides yourself). From the selfsame lump of clay come forth two vessels, (vessels of spirit) one vessel fitted for destruction and the other set for honor to the Father. And who are we to say against the Great Potter, "Why have you made me twain?" :chuckle:

Truster
October 31st, 2015, 08:16 AM
REPROBATE: 1. Having lost all sense of duty; depraved. 2. Abandoned to punishment; condemned.

Scriptures concerning reprobates

"Reprobate silver shall men call them, because the Lord has rejected them" Jeremiah 6:30.

"And even as they did not retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient" Romans 1:28.

"Now as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, reprobate concerning the truth" 2 Timothy 3:8.

"They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate" Titus 1:16.

"Examine yourselves, whether you are in the faith; prove yourselves, Know you not your selves how that Jesus Christ is in you, except you be reprobates" 2 Corinthians 13:5.

"But I trust that you shall know that we are not reprobates" 2 Corinthians 13:6.

"Now I pray to God that you do no evil; not that we should appear approved, but that you should do that which is honest, though we be as reprobates" 2 Corinthians 13:7.

Statement from the "Canons of Dort" concerning reprobation. First Head article #15.

"Whom God out of his sovereign most just irreprehensible and unchangeable good pleasure, has decreed them to live in the common misery into which they have willfully plunged themselves, and not bestow upon them saving faith and the grace of conversion, but permitting them in his just judgment to follow their own ways, at last, for the declaration of his justice, to condemn and punish them forever, not only on account of their unbelief but also for all of their other sins. And this is the decree of reprobation."

All that are born after Adam are sinners, Romans 5:12. We do not become sinners, we are born sinners, Psalm 51:5. It is not really our fault that we are sinners, its Adam and Eves fault. Sin is the natural condition of the fallen man. He is born a sinner and he dies a sinner.

In a very real sense we are all born as reprobates. Somewhere in our life some of us come to the reality that we are lost sinners in need of a savior. But not all.

God has not forsaken humanity as some are led to believe. Since the creation of the earth God's Spirit is in the world calling all to come to Christ and be saved, Hebrews 3:15. The call is often in the Gospel. On the day of Pentecost, they heard the Gospel, they believed the Gospel and thousands came to know Christ as their savior, Acts 2:41 also Acts 4:4. "Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God" Romans 10:17.

Does God create reprobates?

Of course not. That is not the nature and the character of God. Why would a God that gives his only begotten Son for the sins of the world, create a person for the sole purpose of sending him to hell?

You might be better off to believe in no God at all than to blasphemy him and his Son Jesus Christ with this false, unproven doctrine.

Men become reprobates by rejecting Christ and his Gospel. Many are religious reprobates. After awhile the Holy Spirit gives up on them and they become reprobates.

You are walking, talking, typing proof of the matter. He also gives them enough rope, in the form of religion to condemn, and hang themselves.

beloved57
October 31st, 2015, 08:21 AM
Essentially your doctrine takes your own (first-born) vessel of spirit, that is, your own "old man" or "Esau man" nature, (with a mind of the flesh and fitted for destruction) and blames your old man nature on someone else, (a different lump of clay besides yourself). From the selfsame lump of clay come forth two vessels, (vessels of spirit) one vessel fitted for destruction and the other set for honor to the Father. And who are we to say against the Great Potter, "Why have you made me twain?" :chuckle:

They were made /born to be taken and be destroyed! That's scripture 2Peter 2:12 ! They never had a chance or opportunity to be saved!

musterion
October 31st, 2015, 09:16 AM
I don't see Paul making that distinction in this chapter.

Okay.

daqq
October 31st, 2015, 10:21 AM
They were made /born to be taken and be destroyed! That's scripture 2Peter 2:12 ! They never had a chance or opportunity to be saved!

Not every anthropos is a physical corporeal human being. Those from 2Peter 2:12 are the same from the epistle of Jude:

Jude 1:4
4. For there are certain men crept in unawares, even they who were of old time written of beforehand unto this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying our only Despotes, (Ruler of the house) and Master of us, Messiah Yeshua.

This genos of anthropon-man-faced cannot be seen with the eyes of the flesh. They are men having been WRITTEN from old time into this condemnation: they creep in unawares along side you while you are feasting in the Word so as to corrupt your doctrines. Woe unto them! for they have gone in the way of Cain, and ran greedily after the error of Balaam for reward, and perish in the gainsaying of Core. These are jagged rocks in your feasts of charity, when they feast with you, (in the Word) feeding themselves without fear: clouds they are without water, carried about of winds; autumnal trees past the time of fruit bearing yet having born no fruit, TWICE DEAD, plucked up by the roots: raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for ever. Enoch, the seventh from Adam, likewise prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Master comes with ten thousands of his saints, to execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him. Paul likewise speaks of these castaways but you all prefer to call them reprobates so that you may point the finger at others who are outside of yourselves, other human beings, when in reality these things concern devils and wild beasts, therion, (Daniel 7, Hosea 13, Revelation 13). Cut them off from your midst or they will kill you by and through your doctrines. The kingdom of Elohim is within you. :)

Robert Pate
October 31st, 2015, 10:56 AM
Yes, God made some people for the purpose of being born to be destroyed as beasts 2 Pet 2:12

12 But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;

Only their destruction is everlasting 2 Thess 1:9

Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

Thats why they were born into this world by the will of God !

You have this sick, twisted view of the nature and character of God which is held by unbelievers, NOT Christians.

It is not possible for you to be saved because of what you believe about God.

beloved57
October 31st, 2015, 11:08 AM
You have this sick, twisted view of the nature and character of God which is held by unbelievers, NOT Christians.

It is not possible for you to be saved because of what you believe about God.

Your mind is enmity against God Rom 8:7-8!

Shasta
October 31st, 2015, 01:37 PM
You are responsible for the scriptures you quote, not me, I am not your flunky! The scripture i quote I take responsibility for them, not the scriptures you quote!

and I thought you disliked evasion.

1Mind1Spirit
October 31st, 2015, 07:54 PM
Essentially your doctrine takes your own (first-born) vessel of spirit, that is, your own "old man" or "Esau man" nature, (with a mind of the flesh and fitted for destruction) and blames your old man nature on someone else, (a different lump of clay besides yourself). From the selfsame lump of clay come forth two vessels, (vessels of spirit) one vessel fitted for destruction and the other set for honor to the Father. And who are we to say against the Great Potter, "Why have you made me twain?" :chuckle:

:)

beloved57
October 31st, 2015, 08:23 PM
and I thought you disliked evasion.

Apparently you don't!

daqq
November 1st, 2015, 07:15 AM
:)

Just read your comments on this elsewhere, and what you said is so true, and what it reveals is that man will always seek first to save his own skin; even if his doctrine means the damnation of the souls of other human beings so long as he is not forced to part asunder his own soul. Yet this is exactly what Yeshua says his disciples must do:

Matthew 16:23-27
23. But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan, you are an offense unto me: for you savor not the things that be of Elohim, but those that be of men.
24. Then said Yeshua unto his disciples, If any will come after me, let him utterly forsake himself, and take up his stake, and follow me:
25. For whosoever will save his soul shall apollumi-destroy her: and whosoever will apollumi-destroy his soul for my sake shall find her.
26. For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and forfeit his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?
27. For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward each one according to his works.

Luke 14:26-27
26. If anyone come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own soul also, he cannot be my disciple.
27. And whosoever does not bear his stake, and come after me, cannot be my disciple.

And the examples Paul uses from Romans 9 are only two among many:

Romans 9:12-20 KJV
12. It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
13. As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
14. What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
15. For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
16. So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
17. For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
18. Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
19. Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
20. Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
21. Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

Paul is not saying that God creates one person just to destroy him in the end because this would surely not be upright; and is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid, therefore the point is that two vessels come forth from the one selfsame lump of clay: and the clay is the earthen vessel of the man, the body, heart, mind, and soul, which must be apollumi, torn down, destroyed, parted asunder. If a person refuses to do so then he or she cannot even be a disciple of Yeshua. It is clearly not physical but supernal typology, for as said above, these examples are many, beginning with Cain and Abel, then Ishmael and Isaac, then the two examples of which Paul uses, which are Esau and Jacob, then Pharaoh and Moses. All of the firstborns are analogies of the flesh while all of the second vessels are Spirit. It is the same old conflict from the beginning where the flesh lusts and wars against the supernal-spiritual. Cain, Ishmael, Esau, and Pharaoh are supernal typology of the old man carnal and sinful nature which we must be willing cut off from ourselves so as to put on "the new Head", that is, the mind of Messiah, by consuming all of his Testimony-Doctrine. :)

Robert Pate
November 1st, 2015, 08:57 AM
Just read your comments on this elsewhere, and what you said is so true, and what it reveals is that man will always seek first to save his own skin; even if his doctrine means the damnation of the souls of other human beings so long as he is not forced to part asunder his own soul. Yet this is exactly what Yeshua says his disciples must do:

Matthew 16:23-27
23. But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan, you are an offense unto me: for you savor not the things that be of Elohim, but those that be of men.
24. Then said Yeshua unto his disciples, If any will come after me, let him utterly forsake himself, and take up his stake, and follow me:
25. For whosoever will save his soul shall apollumi-destroy her: and whosoever will apollumi-destroy his soul for my sake shall find her.
26. For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and forfeit his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?
27. For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward each one according to his works.

Luke 14:26-27
26. If anyone come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own soul also, he cannot be my disciple.
27. And whosoever does not bear his stake, and come after me, cannot be my disciple.

And the examples Paul uses from Romans 9 are only two among many:

Romans 9:12-20 KJV
12. It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
13. As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
14. What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
15. For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
16. So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
17. For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
18. Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
19. Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
20. Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
21. Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

Paul is not saying that God creates one person just to destroy him in the end because this would surely not be upright; and is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid, therefore the point is that two vessels come forth from the one selfsame lump of clay: and the clay is the earthen vessel of the man, the body, heart, mind, and soul, which must be apollumi, torn down, destroyed, parted asunder. If a person refuses to do so then he or she cannot even be a disciple of Yeshua. It is clearly not physical but supernal typology, for as said above, these examples are many, beginning with Cain and Abel, then Ishmael and Isaac, then the two examples of which Paul uses, which are Esau and Jacob, then Pharaoh and Moses. All of the firstborns are analogies of the flesh while all of the second vessels are Spirit. It is the same old conflict from the beginning where the flesh lusts and wars against the supernal-spiritual. Cain, Ishmael, Esau, and Pharaoh are supernal typology of the old man carnal and sinful nature which we must be willing cut off from ourselves so as to put on "the new Head", that is, the mind of Messiah, by consuming all of his Testimony-Doctrine. :)


Things are not the same under the law as they are under grace.

Under grace... "God so loves the world that he gives his only begotten Son" John 3:16.

Under grace... "God is not willing that any should perish" 2 Peter 3:9.

Under grace... "For by grace are you saved through faith" Ephesians 2:8.

You need to get out of the Old Testament and get into the New Testament so that you can see the wonderful things that God has done for us in Jesus Christ.

daqq
November 1st, 2015, 10:48 AM
Things are not the same under the law as they are under grace.

Under grace... "God so loves the world that he gives his only begotten Son" John 3:16.

Under grace... "God is not willing that any should perish" 2 Peter 3:9.

Under grace... "For by grace are you saved through faith" Ephesians 2:8.

You need to get out of the Old Testament and get into the New Testament so that you can see the wonderful things that God has done for us in Jesus Christ.

I have seen the grace of God first hand after twenty seven years of believing the spoon-fed doctrines of man that you have been taught. You have seen nothing of true grace and this I know by your false doctrines. You have no clue about the grace of God, except for what you only read and hear about as a bystander from without, but you do not know the grace of God first hand. If you did you would understand Paul and the vail would have been lifted from your heart, mind, and eyes, when you read the primary covenant, (which you erroneously call the Old Testament).

2 Corinthians 12:2-9
2. I knew a man in Messiah [#1] before fourteen years ago; whether in the body, I cannot tell, or whether out of the body, I cannot tell, (God knows) such a one was harpazo-caught up unto the third heaven.
3. ALSO I knew a man, [#2] such a one, whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell, God knows:
4. How that he was harpazo-caught up into the Paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.
5. Of such an one will I glory: yet of myself I will not glory, but in mine infirmities.
6. For though I would desire to glory, I shall not be a fool; for I will say the truth: but now I forbear, lest any man should think of me above that which he sees me to be, or that he hears of me.
7. And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.
8. For this thing I besought the Master thrice, that it might depart from me.
9. And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for you: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Messiah may rest upon me.

THIS is the context of what you call "reprobates" from the next chapter which you quoted in your OP statement:

2 Corinthians 13:5-6
5. Examine yourselves, whether you be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know you not your own selves, how that Messiah Yeshua is in you, except you be castaways?
6. But I trust that you shall know that we are not castaways!

Original Strong's Ref. #96
Romanized adokimos
Pronounced ad-ok'-ee-mos
from GSN0001 (as a negative particle) and GSN1384; unapproved, i.e. rejected; by implication, worthless (literally or morally):
KJV--castaway, rejected, reprobate.

And why does he say castaways? Because they are the rejected and because the kingdom of Elohim is like a fishing net in the doctrine of the Master Teacher, (Matthew 13:47-48) and Paul clearly tells you that the things he writes and teaches are the commandments of the Lord, (1 Corinthians 14:37).

Matthew 13:47-48
47. Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a net, that was cast into the sea, and gathered of every kind:
48. Which, when it was full, they drew to shore, and sat down, and gathered the good into vessels, but cast the bad away.

The bad are the castaway fish, (carcasses, i.e. "the flesh man") and this is what happened to Saul in 2 Corinthians 12:2-4 quoted above. One was caught up to the "third heaven" and one was caught up to "the Paradise", (which are not the same). One heard things uttered which are not lawful for a man to utter, (spoken by the other because I know first hand). Have you been caught up? Have you heard such things? Have you been to the Bema Seat of the Master? You will face yourself in that day, your own scapegoat twin, and if indeed you overcome in your appointed time, (YHWH knows) then perhaps you will understand the true grace of Elohim; for there is no escaping that place and time but through the forfeiture of your own soul. How else do you suppose Paul knew about the Bema of Messiah, (where Saul became Paul)? You know nothing yet presume to condemn others in your profane babblings which you fancy as some sort of theology. Your old man twin will be the castaway in that day; and then shall you too know the terror, (and grace) of Elohim:

2 Corinthians 5:8-11 KJV
8. We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
9. Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him.
10. For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.
11. Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences.

Come back and tell us all about it when you have been absent from your carcass, your old man is a cast away, you have a new name given you from the Master having been written upon a white stone of approval, and you know both the terror and the grace of Elohim. But for now you are the blind attempting to lead the blind yet even the partially blind see well enough to know not to follow your doctrines. :chuckle:

Robert Pate
November 1st, 2015, 05:08 PM
I have seen the grace of God first hand after twenty seven years of believing the spoon-fed doctrines of man that you have been taught. You have seen nothing of true grace and this I know by your false doctrines. You have no clue about the grace of God, except for what you only read and hear about as a bystander from without, but you do not know the grace of God first hand. If you did you would understand Paul and the vail would have been lifted from your heart, mind, and eyes, when you read the primary covenant, (which you erroneously call the Old Testament).

2 Corinthians 12:2-9
2. I knew a man in Messiah [#1] before fourteen years ago; whether in the body, I cannot tell, or whether out of the body, I cannot tell, (God knows) such a one was harpazo-caught up unto the third heaven.
3. ALSO I knew a man, [#2] such a one, whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell, God knows:
4. How that he was harpazo-caught up into the Paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.
5. Of such an one will I glory: yet of myself I will not glory, but in mine infirmities.
6. For though I would desire to glory, I shall not be a fool; for I will say the truth: but now I forbear, lest any man should think of me above that which he sees me to be, or that he hears of me.
7. And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.
8. For this thing I besought the Master thrice, that it might depart from me.
9. And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for you: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Messiah may rest upon me.

THIS is the context of what you call "reprobates" from the next chapter which you quoted in your OP statement:

2 Corinthians 13:5-6
5. Examine yourselves, whether you be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know you not your own selves, how that Messiah Yeshua is in you, except you be castaways?
6. But I trust that you shall know that we are not castaways!

Original Strong's Ref. #96
Romanized adokimos
Pronounced ad-ok'-ee-mos
from GSN0001 (as a negative particle) and GSN1384; unapproved, i.e. rejected; by implication, worthless (literally or morally):
KJV--castaway, rejected, reprobate.

And why does he say castaways? Because they are the rejected and because the kingdom of Elohim is like a fishing net in the doctrine of the Master Teacher, (Matthew 13:47-48) and Paul clearly tells you that the things he writes and teaches are the commandments of the Lord, (1 Corinthians 14:37).

Matthew 13:47-48
47. Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a net, that was cast into the sea, and gathered of every kind:
48. Which, when it was full, they drew to shore, and sat down, and gathered the good into vessels, but cast the bad away.

The bad are the castaway fish, (carcasses, i.e. "the flesh man") and this is what happened to Saul in 2 Corinthians 12:2-4 quoted above. One was caught up to the "third heaven" and one was caught up to "the Paradise", (which are not the same). One heard things uttered which are not lawful for a man to utter, (spoken by the other because I know first hand). Have you been caught up? Have you heard such things? Have you been to the Bema Seat of the Master? You will face yourself in that day, your own scapegoat twin, and if indeed you overcome in your appointed time, (YHWH knows) then perhaps you will understand the true grace of Elohim; for there is no escaping that place and time but through the forfeiture of your own soul. How else do you suppose Paul knew about the Bema of Messiah, (where Saul became Paul)? You know nothing yet presume to condemn others in your profane babblings which you fancy as some sort of theology. Your old man twin will be the castaway in that day; and then shall you too know the terror, (and grace) of Elohim:

2 Corinthians 5:8-11 KJV
8. We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
9. Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him.
10. For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.
11. Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences.

Come back and tell us all about it when you have been absent from your carcass, your old man is a cast away, you have a new name given you from the Master having been written upon a white stone of approval, and you know both the terror and the grace of Elohim. But for now you are the blind attempting to lead the blind yet even the partially blind see well enough to know not to follow your doctrines. :chuckle:


You are hostile towards God and his Son Jesus Christ. Your religion whatever it is, has made you that way.

beloved57
November 1st, 2015, 05:27 PM
You are hostile towards God and his Son Jesus Christ. Your religion whatever it is, has made you that way.

You the one that doesn't believe the Gospel! You are hostile towards it!

daqq
November 1st, 2015, 06:03 PM
You are hostile towards God and his Son Jesus Christ. Your religion whatever it is, has made you that way.

I have shared what I have from the Scripture, even Paul, and you clearly do not even believe all that Paul writes. How can you claim to have the Gospel to share with others, even the supposed Gospel of Paul, when you yourself refuse to mortify your own "members" of your own "household" upon your own "earth" as Paul exhorts you to do? You clearly have no understanding of the allegories and doctrines of Yeshua: if your right eye offends you, pluck him out, and cast him from you, and buy some gold tried in the fire from the Master, and anoint your eyes with eye salve so that you may see, (yes, that is correct, BUY, Revelation 3:18). Do you have money in the realm of the kingdom so as to buy anything from Messiah as he says? If not then I suppose you too are wretched, miserable, poor, blind, and naked, just as he warns Laodicea. :crackup:

ttruscott
November 1st, 2015, 06:39 PM
...

Here, you claim that God cannot be fair if He elects to save without electing to damn right?

This is a ridiculous contention and anyone who knows me knows how foolish it is. If you can't fight em with facts dazzle them with the bright stuff, eh?


That's your preconceived doctrinal assumption based on human evaluation in human emotions. Scripture clearly says God cannot sin nor does He create sin. According to your logic man was created to sin.

How far out there can you get?? My whole thesis is that GOD did not create anyone a sinner nor to be a sinner nor to go to hell! Yet you have accused me of the opposite - well done but it won't fly.


Mine is the Word of God and it speaks about election and the "middle view" is the biblical view concerning election.

So you claim that only your interpretation is the truth... riiiiight, got that. But I do not stand on my interpretation of the bible only at all but on the indwelling Holy Spirit you seem to not have met yet as shown by the twisted mess you are making of this topic.


This is all scriptural and not based upon a human question or human reasoning.

Sorry but it is indeed based upon sectarian reasoning to support a church bias in the interpretation. It is your pride that pushes you to assert that your INTERPRETATION is indeed the very word of GOD.

ttruscott
November 1st, 2015, 07:00 PM
GOD is love and love is patient and never harms...HE will never give up on anyone. If someone is not saved, they CANNOT be saved!!! HE will never give up on anyone who can be saved.

To believe HE created us sinners in Adam is to believe HE created some for hell - no matter how many pages of theo-babble are written to double think one's way past this truth.


You have based your conclusion upon your question to which you answer yourself and not any scriptures that support your answer.

Who needs to quote the most obvious scripture in the Bible??? But since you have a deficient learning, here you go:

GOD is love: 1 John 4:8 Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love.

love is patient: 1 Corinthians 13:4 Love is patient,

love never harms: Romans 13:10 Love does no harm to a neighbor.

Therefore GOD of perfect loving patience will never give up on anyone. If you are HIS, Deuteronomy 31:6 “Be strong and courageous. Do not be afraid or terrified because of them, for the LORD your God goes with you; he will never leave you nor forsake you.” Therefore if everyone is HIS, then they will all be saved and your claim that He indeed does leave and forsake them for no written reason is confounded! So I repeat: If someone is not saved, they CANNOT be saved!!! HE will never give up on anyone who can be saved.

Neither will a GOD of perfect loving patience ever create a person knowing the person would end in hell nor would HE create a person in sin or in Adam's sin and so condemned already to go to hell.

My verses are just as GODly as your un-quoted verses are while my interpretation of them in full favour of HIS holy loving kindness is superior to your sectarianism.

daqq
November 1st, 2015, 07:11 PM
Factoid:
A Very small number of people have been saved from the mass of humanity. 99% of all humans to date have died unsaved.

Can't say I do not remember your screen name from a certain unnamed Messianic Judaism forum; and how is your friend Dr. A. F. doing? Well and good I hope. However it is peculiar how those such as yourselves account the Law, for yourselves, as having been "rendered completely ineffectual/idle", that is, for yourselves; but when it comes to the 99% of the rest of humanity they die "unsaved" according to your "new covenant" rules.

:think:

I'll pass . . . :)

ttruscott
November 1st, 2015, 07:16 PM
Factoid:
A Very small number of people have been saved from the mass of humanity. 99% of all humans to date have died unsaved.

While it is true that the reprobate vastly outnumber the few sinful elect whose redemption is the whole reason for our lives here on earth, the total of humanity (sinners born on earth) comes nowhere near to the vast number of those who have chosen holiness by their free will, who have never sinned and now work as messengers for GOD in the heavens.

ttruscott
November 2nd, 2015, 01:20 AM
You have this sick, twisted view of the nature and character of God which is held by unbelievers, NOT Christians.

It is not possible for you to be saved because of what you believe about God.

Excuse me Robert but you and B57 are probably the same person with schizophrenia...

iouae
November 2nd, 2015, 06:11 AM
Christian maths works as follows..


John 15:5 ... without me ye can do nothing.
Worshiping Baal is doing something
Therefore if you can do nothing without Christ, he must be enabling you in your worship of Baal.

Sounds crazy, but some Christians interpret the word as if they were doing maths.

And the words which trip them up are the "all" or "nothing" words.

beloved57
November 2nd, 2015, 06:46 AM
Who needs to quote the most obvious scripture in the Bible??? But since you have a deficient learning, here you go:


GOD is love: 1 John 4:8 Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love.

love is patient: 1 Corinthians 13:4 Love is patient,

love never harms: Romans 13:10 Love does no harm to a neighbor.

Therefore GOD of perfect loving patience will never give up on anyone. If you are HIS, Deuteronomy 31:6 “Be strong and courageous. Do not be afraid or terrified because of them, for the LORD your God goes with you; he will never leave you nor forsake you.” Therefore if everyone is HIS, then they will all be saved and your claim that He indeed does leave and forsake them for no written reason is confounded! So I repeat: If someone is not saved, they CANNOT be saved!!! HE will never give up on anyone who can be saved.

Neither will a GOD of perfect loving patience ever create a person knowing the person would end in hell nor would HE create a person in sin or in Adam's sin and so condemned already to go to hell.

My verses are just as GODly as your un-quoted verses are while my interpretation of them in full favour of HIS holy loving kindness is superior to your sectarianism.

Gods Love is specifically in Christ Jesus Rom 8:39

39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

If you and i were not Chosen by God in Christ before the foundation, God isnt Love to us, we would be outside of His Love, objects of His hate ! Ps 5:5

5 The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity.

So you need to be very careful on how you quote that verse about God being love, you can be doing it in a flippant and God dishonoring manner !

Robert Pate
November 2nd, 2015, 09:01 AM
Gods Love is specifically in Christ Jesus Rom 8:39

39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

If you and i were not Chosen by God in Christ before the foundation, God isnt Love to us, we would be outside of His Love, objects of His hate ! Ps 5:5

5 The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity.

So you need to be very careful on how you quote that verse about God being love, you can be doing it in a flippant and God dishonoring manner !



How about this? "God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believes in him should not perish, but have everlasting life" John 3:16.

beloved57
November 2nd, 2015, 09:34 AM
How about this? "God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believes in him should not perish, but have everlasting life" John 3:16.

You don't believe that scripture!You are in unbelief!

Shasta
November 2nd, 2015, 10:15 AM
Gods Love is specifically in Christ Jesus Rom 8:39

39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

If you and i were not Chosen by God in Christ before the foundation, God isnt Love to us, we would be outside of His Love, objects of His hate ! Ps 5:5

5 The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity.

So you need to be very careful on how you quote that verse about God being love, you can be doing it in a flippant and God dishonoring manner !

God who told us to love our enemies, also loves His enemies. In fact anyone who is currently reconciled to God at one time in the past was His enemy (Colossians 1:21-22). God does not rejoice when people are brought to judgment but prefers that they repent and be saved (Ezekiel 18:23).

This disposition is revealed also in the OT:

…10 Then the LORD said, "You had compassion on the plant for which you did not work and which you did not cause to grow, which came up overnight and perished overnight. 11 "Should I not have compassion on Nineveh, the great city in which there are more than 120,000 persons who do not know the difference between their right and left hand, as well as many animals?" (Jonah 4:10-11)

Here God states His motive for wanting to save Nineveh. God sent Jonah because He had compassion on the vast numbers of people who did not know Him, those whose idolatry and immorality made them His enemies. God had compassion upon their children as well ("those who did not know their right hand from their left") who were not able to exercise any moral judgment. God even had compassion on their animals, many of which would have been slaughtered in the overthrow of Nineveh.

When James and John wanted to call fire down and destroy those who would not receive Jesus, the Master rebuked them saying, “"You do not know what kind of spirit you are of;… (Luke 9:53-55). The same could be said to anyone who delights in judgment over mercy.

beloved57
November 2nd, 2015, 10:39 AM
God who told us to love our enemies, also loves His enemies. In fact anyone who is currently reconciled to God at one time in the past was His enemy (Colossians 1:21-22). God does not rejoice when people are brought to judgment but prefers that they repent and be saved (Ezekiel 18:23).

This disposition is revealed also in the OT:

…10 Then the LORD said, "You had compassion on the plant for which you did not work and which you did not cause to grow, which came up overnight and perished overnight. 11 "Should I not have compassion on Nineveh, the great city in which there are more than 120,000 persons who do not know the difference between their right and left hand, as well as many animals?" (Jonah 4:10-11)

Here God states His motive for wanting to save Nineveh. God sent Jonah because He had compassion on the vast numbers of people who did not know Him, those whose idolatry and immorality made them His enemies. God had compassion upon their children as well ("those who did not know their right hand from their left") who were not able to exercise any moral judgment. God even had compassion on their animals, many of which would have been slaughtered in the overthrow of Nineveh.

When James and John wanted to call fire down and destroy those who would not receive Jesus, the Master rebuked them saying, “"You do not know what kind of spirit you are of;… (Luke 9:53-55). The same could be said to anyone who delights in judgment over mercy.

I dont know what god you believe in, its not the God of the Scripture !

Shasta
November 2nd, 2015, 11:23 AM
I dont know what god you believe in, its not the God of the Scripture !


What I posted was all about what scripture says. If you do not believe it then show me how I misinterpreted them



Originally Posted by Shasta View Post
God who told us to love our enemies, also loves His enemies. In fact anyone who is currently reconciled to God at one time in the past was His enemy (Colossians 1:21-22). God does not rejoice when people are brought to judgment but prefers that they repent and be saved (Ezekiel 18:23).

This disposition is revealed also in the OT:

…10 Then the LORD said, "You had compassion on the plant for which you did not work and which you did not cause to grow, which came up overnight and perished overnight. 11 "Should I not have compassion on Nineveh, the great city in which there are more than 120,000 persons who do not know the difference between their right and left hand, as well as many animals?" (Jonah 4:10-11)

Here God states His motive for wanting to save Nineveh. God sent Jonah because He had compassion on the vast numbers of people who did not know Him, those whose idolatry and immorality made them His enemies. God had compassion upon their children as well ("those who did not know their right hand from their left") who were not able to exercise any moral judgment. God even had compassion on their animals, many of which would have been slaughtered in the overthrow of Nineveh.

When James and John wanted to call fire down and destroy those who would not receive Jesus, the Master rebuked them saying, “"You do not know what kind of spirit you are of;… (Luke 9:53-55). The same could be said to anyone who delights in judgment over mercy.

Shasta
November 2nd, 2015, 11:46 AM
I want to return to the second chapter of 2 Peter which, some claim proves that God brings human beings into existence for the sole purpose of consigning them to destruction.

12 But these, as natural brute beasts, born to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption; (2 Peter 2:12)

Here are other descriptions of the kind of life these men had fallen into: 2 Peter 2:2-3, 10, 12-14. This verse is speaking of a class of men in the terminal stage of corruption. Like a malignant form of cancer, their sin had grown and metastasized until it had corrupted every area of their lives. They are said to be like wild animals, spiritual predators who pervert the faith of the flock and feed on them (2 Peter 2:1).

Yet they had not always been this way. Here is the background of their story.

If they have escaped the corruption (Grk: miasma - pollution or defilement) of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ…. and are again entangled in it and are overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning (2 Peter 2:20).

The word “knowing" or "knowledge” is the Greek word epignosis which according to Strong’s Concordance means a "knowledge gained through first-hand relationship") – properly, "contact-knowledge" that is appropriate ("apt, fitting") to first-hand, experiential knowing.

Thayer’s Lexicon adds that the word implies “the true knowledge of Christ's nature, dignity, benefits and gives as references: Ephesians 4:13; 2 Peter 1:8; 2 Peter 2:20;”

http://biblehub.com/greek/1922.htm

First of all, this was not false doctrine but true knowledge (of the gospel). Second, this kind of “knowing” was not merely academic but personal and experiential. Peter is saying that at one time in their past their experience of the gospel had freed them from sin. This is not mere moral reform as I have heard some people say.

Sadly, however, they were later entangled by the same “defilements”which they had escaped. Not only were they entangled but this time they were completely overcome by them. As in the Parable the Sower, the seed of life had been planted in them. It had germinated and grown but then the thorns (lusts) grew so thick that the new life was extinguished (Matthew 13:22).

Peter then says that their last condition was worse than their first. However, if their initial condition was being lost and their final state is destruction what consequence could possibly be worse than that? In the paradigm of OSAS it could never be said of a backslider that “their last state was worse than the beginning” for then, no matter how much a person sins in this life, they can still look forward to an eternity of joy in the next. The only way the consequences could be worse is if their experience of hell was somehow made more painful by the fact that they had once known the truth…but can this happen? Can hell be actually be worse for some people than for others? According to Jesus it can be and for precisely this same reason (Luke 12:47).

Taking the whole chapter of 2 Peter 2 into consideration it is evident that God had been merciful to these men at one point in their lives. It was THEY who chose to turn away from the grace of God and deny the Faith they had once received by embracing heretical doctrine.
We do not see the picture of a God whose sole purpose for bringing men into the world is to destroy them. Instead, we see how men prepare themselves for judgment by refusing His mercy and abandoning their faith.

beloved57
November 2nd, 2015, 12:14 PM
What I posted was all about what scripture says. If you do not believe it then show me how I misinterpreted them

All you did is post scripture, doesnt mean you believe or understand it !

beloved57
November 2nd, 2015, 12:16 PM
I want to return to the second chapter of 2 Peter which, some claim proves that God brings human beings into existence for the sole purpose of consigning them to destruction.

12 But these, as natural brute beasts, born to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption; (2 Peter 2:12)

Here are other descriptions of the kind of life these men had fallen into: 2 Peter 2:2-3, 10, 12-14. This verse is speaking of a class of men in the terminal stage of corruption. Like a malignant form of cancer, their sin had grown and metastasized until it had corrupted every area of their lives. They are said to be like wild animals, spiritual predators who pervert the faith of the flock and feed on them (2 Peter 2:1).

Yet they had not always been this way. Here is the background of their story.

If they have escaped the corruption (Grk: miasma - pollution or defilement) of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ…. and are again entangled in it and are overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning (2 Peter 2:20).

The word “knowing" or "knowledge” is the Greek word epignosis which according to Strong’s Concordance means a "knowledge gained through first-hand relationship") – properly, "contact-knowledge" that is appropriate ("apt, fitting") to first-hand, experiential knowing.

Thayer’s Lexicon adds that the word implies “the true knowledge of Christ's nature, dignity, benefits and gives as references: Ephesians 4:13; 2 Peter 1:8; 2 Peter 2:20;”

http://biblehub.com/greek/1922.htm

First of all, this was not false doctrine but true knowledge (of the gospel). Second, this kind of “knowing” was not merely academic but personal and experiential. Peter is saying that at one time in their past their experience of the gospel had freed them from sin. This is not mere moral reform as I have heard some people say.

Sadly, however, they were later entangled by the same “defilements”which they had escaped. Not only were they entangled but this time they were completely overcome by them. As in the Parable the Sower, the seed of life had been planted in them. It had germinated and grown but then the thorns (lusts) grew so thick that the new life was extinguished (Matthew 13:22).

Peter then says that their last condition was worse than their first. However, if their initial condition was being lost and their final state is destruction what consequence could possibly be worse than that? In the paradigm of OSAS it could never be said of a backslider that “their last state was worse than the beginning” for then, no matter how much a person sins in this life, they can still look forward to an eternity of joy in the next. The only way the consequences could be worse is if their experience of hell was somehow made more painful by the fact that they had once known the truth…but can this happen? Can hell be actually be worse for some people than for others? According to Jesus it can be and for precisely this same reason (Luke 12:47).

Taking the whole chapter of 2 Peter 2 into consideration it is evident that God had been merciful to these men at one point in their lives. It was THEY who chose to turn away from the grace of God and deny the Faith they had once received by embracing heretical doctrine.
We do not see the picture of a God whose sole purpose for bringing men into the world is to destroy them. Instead, we see how men prepare themselves for judgment by refusing His mercy and abandoning their faith.

You dont even believe the scriptures, most you do is haphazardly quote them !

Robert Pate
November 2nd, 2015, 01:24 PM
Gods Love is specifically in Christ Jesus Rom 8:39

39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

If you and i were not Chosen by God in Christ before the foundation, God isnt Love to us, we would be outside of His Love, objects of His hate ! Ps 5:5

5 The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity.

So you need to be very careful on how you quote that verse about God being love, you can be doing it in a flippant and God dishonoring manner !

If God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son, doesn't it make sense that God would provide salvation for the whole world?

beloved57
November 2nd, 2015, 01:26 PM
If God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son, doesn't it make sense that God would provide salvation for the whole world?

You dont even believe in God. I have explained Jn 3:16 in my threads ! Your understanding of scripture is based on the natural man !

Robert Pate
November 2nd, 2015, 01:27 PM
All you did is post scripture, doesnt mean you believe or understand it !

So, you believe that people on the Forum quote scripture that they don't understand?

That's really stupid. Is that what you do?

Robert Pate
November 2nd, 2015, 01:30 PM
You dont even believe in God. I have explained Jn 3:16 in my threads ! Your understanding of scripture is based on the natural man !

All that you do is falsely accuse those that oppose you.

You have never explained John 3:16.

John 3:16 refutes everything that you believe.

beloved57
November 2nd, 2015, 01:45 PM
All that you do is falsely accuse those that oppose you.

You have never explained John 3:16.

John 3:16 refutes everything that you believe.

You dont believe in God or Jn 3:16 ! Then you teach that Christ's Blood is worthless in saving all for whom it was shed !

Robert Pate
November 2nd, 2015, 01:59 PM
You dont believe in God or Jn 3:16 ! Then you teach that Christ's Blood is worthless in saving all for whom it was shed !

Christ's blood was shed for the sins of the world, John 3:16.

Only a heretic would deny that.

Shasta
November 2nd, 2015, 04:10 PM
You dont even believe the scriptures, most you do is haphazardly quote them !

All the scripture I cited I took time to explain in detail. You offer no proof whatsoever that I have been haphazard about it. A denial is not a rebuttal.

Bright Raven
November 2nd, 2015, 04:12 PM
All the scripture I cited I took time to explain in detail. You offer no proof whatsoever that I have been haphazard about it. A denial is not a rebuttal.

He has no scripture to rebut. He usually just says see you at the judgement.

Shasta
November 2nd, 2015, 04:21 PM
You dont believe in God or Jn 3:16 ! Then you teach that Christ's Blood is worthless in saving all for whom it was shed !

So the value of Christ's blood is insufficient to save all of humanity?

beloved57
November 2nd, 2015, 05:10 PM
What I posted was all about what scripture says. If you do not believe it then show me how I misinterpreted them

You don't believe the scriptures! You don't believe in God, not the God I believe in!

beloved57
November 2nd, 2015, 05:11 PM
Christ's blood was shed for the sins of the world, John 3:16.

Only a heretic would deny that.

You deny it every day!

Bright Raven
November 2nd, 2015, 05:13 PM
You deny it every day!

You have not a clue to what it means.

Robert Pate
November 3rd, 2015, 08:48 AM
You don't believe the scriptures! You don't believe in God, not the God I believe in!

The reason for that is because you have embraced other writings than the Bible. Like "The Canons of Dort".

beloved57
November 3rd, 2015, 08:56 AM
The reason for that is because you have embraced other writings than the Bible. Like "The Canons of Dort".

Your teaching is a disgrace to Jesus Christ and His Saving Death!

Robert Pate
November 3rd, 2015, 08:59 AM
Your teaching is a disgrace to Jesus Christ and His Saving Death!

Throw your Canons of Dort in the trash and believe the Bible.

You might even get saved.

beloved57
November 3rd, 2015, 09:01 AM
Throw your Canons of Dort in the trash and believe the Bible.

You might even get saved.

Again

Your teaching is a disgrace to Jesus Christ and His Saving Death! Also to the Holy Spirit, and the Father ! You teach that Millions for whom Christ died, still perish lost in their sins He died for !

Robert Pate
November 3rd, 2015, 09:05 AM
Again

Your teaching is a disgrace to Jesus Christ and His Saving Death! Also to the Holy Spirit, and the Father ! You teach that Millions for whom Christ died, still perish lost in their sins He died for !

All that you can do is make false accusations. That is your objective on this Forum.

God forces no one to believe on his Son Jesus Christ, as you seem to believe.

beloved57
November 5th, 2015, 04:43 AM
All that you can do is make false accusations. That is your objective on this Forum.

God forces no one to believe on his Son Jesus Christ, as you seem to believe.

You make Christ death and blood worthless!

Robert Pate
November 5th, 2015, 08:59 AM
You make Christ death and blood worthless!

Every human being on this earth is of infinite value to God, John 3:16.

beloved57
November 5th, 2015, 10:50 AM
Every human being on this earth is of infinite value to God, John 3:16.

False invalid comment not stated in scripture !

And you make Christs Blood shed worthless !

Robert Pate
November 5th, 2015, 01:40 PM
False invalid comment not stated in scripture !

And you make Christs Blood shed worthless !

"God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son" John 3:16.

Means that God loves every individual because he has tasted death for everyone, Hebrews 2:9.

Another one of those difficult scriptures that you struggle with.

beloved57
November 5th, 2015, 01:51 PM
"God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son" John 3:16.

Means that God loves every individual because he has tasted death for everyone, Hebrews 2:9.

Another one of those difficult scriptures that you struggle with.

You dont believe those scriptures, and you teach that Christ failed to save them He died for!

Robert Pate
November 5th, 2015, 02:11 PM
You dont believe those scriptures, and you teach that Christ failed to save them He died for!

According to the Bible Christ died for the sins of the whole world, 1 John 2:2.

Another one of those troubling scriptures that you struggle with.

beloved57
November 5th, 2015, 02:59 PM
According to the Bible Christ died for the sins of the whole world, 1 John 2:2.

Another one of those troubling scriptures that you struggle with.

You dont believe that scripture or understand it! You teach that Christ saving death has failed to save them He died for, that is unbelief!

Bright Raven
November 5th, 2015, 03:00 PM
You dont believe that scripture or understand it! You teach that Christ saving death has failed to save them He died for, that is unbelief!

That is a false statement. Bearing false witness is a sin.

Nanja
November 5th, 2015, 03:14 PM
According to the Bible Christ died for the sins of the whole world, 1 John 2:2.

Another one of those troubling scriptures that you struggle with.

You are the one who struggles with the majority of the scriptures, because they cannot support
your false gospel that Christ died for all mankind without exception.


The whole world that Christ died for the sins of, are the Sheep,
jew and gentile, from all nations of the world.


John 10:11-15
11 I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.
15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.


However the non-sheep, the cursed goats, were condemned already John 3:18!

Mat. 25:31-34, 41
31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him,
then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another,
as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father,
inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed,
into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels

~~~~~

beloved57
November 5th, 2015, 04:02 PM
You are the one who struggles with the majority of the scriptures, because they cannot support
your false gospel that Christ died for all mankind without exception.


The whole world that Christ died for the sins of, are the Sheep,
jew and gentile, from all nations of the world.


John 10:11-15
11 I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.
15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.


However the non-sheep, the cursed goats, were condemned already John 3:18!

Mat. 25:31-34, 41
31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him,
then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another,
as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father,
inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed,
into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels

~~~~~

Amen Sister, but you know that poster is not hearing what you are saying, however God is holding him accountable, your labor is not in vain in the Lord!

Robert Pate
November 5th, 2015, 04:12 PM
You are the one who struggles with the majority of the scriptures, because they cannot support
your false gospel that Christ died for all mankind without exception.


The whole world that Christ died for the sins of, are the Sheep,
jew and gentile, from all nations of the world.


John 10:11-15
11 I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.
15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.


However the non-sheep, the cursed goats, were condemned already John 3:18!

Mat. 25:31-34, 41
31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him,
then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another,
as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father,
inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed,
into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels

~~~~~


You have a serious spiritual condition.

You want to believe that God is an unjust, unmerciful, unrighteous tyrant that delights in sending people to hell.

The Bible totally and completely refutes you.

The Bible teaches that God loves his created order and is not willing that any should perish, 2 Peter 3:9.

The most serious thing about what you believe is that it is not possible for you to believe what you believe about God and be saved.

You do not have saving faith.

Nanja
November 5th, 2015, 04:21 PM
Amen Sister, but you know that poster is not hearing what you are saying, however God is holding him accountable, your labor is not in vain in the Lord!


You are so right, Brother. God is holding him accountable, and also everyone else who reads it.

Is. 55:11
So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void,
but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.

To many, His Word is a stone of stumbling; those to whom as He has appointed 1 Pet. 2:8.

~~~~~

Robert Pate
November 5th, 2015, 04:29 PM
You are so right, Brother. God is holding him accountable, and also everyone else who reads it.

Is. 55:11
So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void,
but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.

To many, His Word is a stone of stumbling; those to whom as He has appointed 1 Pet. 2:8.

~~~~~


You and B57 do not have saving faith.

It is not possible for you to believe what you do about God and be granted eternal life. Its not going to happen.

beloved57
November 5th, 2015, 04:53 PM
You are so right, Brother. God is holding him accountable, and also everyone else who reads it.

Is. 55:11
So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void,
but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.

To many, His Word is a stone of stumbling; those to whom as He has appointed 1 Pet. 2:8.

~~~~~

Sure you right! :);)

beloved57
November 5th, 2015, 04:56 PM
You and B57 do not have saving faith.

It is not possible for you to believe what you do about God and be granted eternal life. Its not going to happen.

It's not possible for you to be a believer in Christ and reject the Gospel which Calvinism sets forth, Tulip!

Bright Raven
November 5th, 2015, 04:58 PM
It's not possible for you to be a believer in Christ and reject the Gospel which Calvinism sets forth, Tulip!

Your God is TULIP not Jesus Christ.

Robert Pate
November 6th, 2015, 05:21 PM
Your God is TULIP not Jesus Christ.

You have that right. TULIP is their God.

beloved57
November 6th, 2015, 07:11 PM
You have that right. TULIP is their God.

TULIP is the Gospel!

Bright Raven
November 6th, 2015, 07:11 PM
TULIP is the Gospel!

:rotfl::rotfl::rotfl:

Robert Pate
November 7th, 2015, 04:28 PM
TULIP is the Gospel!


If TULIP is the Gospel then we are all without hope.

aikido7
November 7th, 2015, 06:25 PM
God created ALL. And afterwards, pronounced it “good” two times.

Even atheists and nonbelievers are often moved to say the word WOW !!! when glimpsing God’s work in the world.

Robert Pate
November 8th, 2015, 09:37 AM
God created ALL. And afterwards, pronounced it “good” two times.

Even atheists and nonbelievers are often moved to say the word WOW !!! when glimpsing God’s work in the world.

It was good until it was corrupted by sinful man.

beloved57
November 8th, 2015, 02:53 PM
If TULIP is the Gospel then we are all without hope.

Tulip is the Gospel and it appears you are without hope!

Robert Pate
November 8th, 2015, 03:01 PM
Tulip is the Gospel and it appears you are without hope!

Hell would be a better place than to go to heaven with your unjust, unmerciful, unrighteous Calvinist God.

aikido7
November 8th, 2015, 03:39 PM
It was good until it was corrupted by sinful man.I don’t have the same “focus on sin” as some traditional Christians maintain. Children are born innocent with free will and a good future.

I agree with many psychologists who have determined that all human behavior is learned.

But the "sins of the fathers” means that we all pick up on our parent’s human mistakes and especially we learn from them how to do things which are not always completely moral.

My parents taught me well and did the best they could do at the time (even though there was a lot of blame, verbal abuse and some low-level sexual abuse). But I saw them lying (“Don’t tell them I am at home”) and reflexively judging other people and blaming them for their own problems.

Fear of the devil, of evil, or of my own sins is not what works for me.
I try to see the best in everyone and now believe that every human behavior has an underlying good intention behind it. As naive as I know this sounds, these are my underlying beliefs now.

aikido7
November 8th, 2015, 03:40 PM
It was good until it was corrupted by sinful man.I still see an uncorrupted divine in my everyday life.

beloved57
November 8th, 2015, 03:54 PM
Hell would be a better place than to go to heaven with your unjust, unmerciful, unrighteous Calvinist God.

Say what you will, Tulip is the Gospel!

aikido7
November 8th, 2015, 03:57 PM
REPROBATE: 1. Having lost all sense of duty; depraved. 2. Abandoned to punishment; condemned.

Scriptures concerning reprobates

"Reprobate silver shall men call them, because the Lord has rejected them" Jeremiah 6:30.

"And even as they did not retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient" Romans 1:28.

"Now as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, reprobate concerning the truth" 2 Timothy 3:8.

"They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate" Titus 1:16.

"Examine yourselves, whether you are in the faith; prove yourselves, Know you not your selves how that Jesus Christ is in you, except you be reprobates" 2 Corinthians 13:5.

"But I trust that you shall know that we are not reprobates" 2 Corinthians 13:6.

"Now I pray to God that you do no evil; not that we should appear approved, but that you should do that which is honest, though we be as reprobates" 2 Corinthians 13:7.

Statement from the "Canons of Dort" concerning reprobation. First Head article #15.

"Whom God out of his sovereign most just irreprehensible and unchangeable good pleasure, has decreed them to live in the common misery into which they have willfully plunged themselves, and not bestow upon them saving faith and the grace of conversion, but permitting them in his just judgment to follow their own ways, at last, for the declaration of his justice, to condemn and punish them forever, not only on account of their unbelief but also for all of their other sins. And this is the decree of reprobation."

All that are born after Adam are sinners, Romans 5:12. We do not become sinners, we are born sinners, Psalm 51:5. It is not really our fault that we are sinners, its Adam and Eves fault. Sin is the natural condition of the fallen man. He is born a sinner and he dies a sinner.

In a very real sense we are all born as reprobates. Somewhere in our life some of us come to the reality that we are lost sinners in need of a savior. But not all.

God has not forsaken humanity as some are led to believe. Since the creation of the earth God's Spirit is in the world calling all to come to Christ and be saved, Hebrews 3:15. The call is often in the Gospel. On the day of Pentecost, they heard the Gospel, they believed the Gospel and thousands came to know Christ as their savior, Acts 2:41 also Acts 4:4. "Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God" Romans 10:17.

Does God create reprobates?

Of course not. That is not the nature and the character of God. Why would a God that gives his only begotten Son for the sins of the world, create a person for the sole purpose of sending him to hell?

You might be better off to believe in no God at all than to blasphemy him and his Son Jesus Christ with this false, unproven doctrine.

Men become reprobates by rejecting Christ and his Gospel. Many are religious reprobates. After awhile the Holy Spirit gives up on them and they become reprobates.Apparently the God of Jesus created them. Jesus says God pours out his love on the good as well as the evil. He does not play favorites, nor should we attribute bad weather or poor health to God. Or even good health and good weather.

The universe has been already set in motion and is working out the way that it will.

beloved57
November 8th, 2015, 05:17 PM
Apparently the God of Jesus created them. Jesus says God pours out his love on the good as well as the evil. He does not play favorites, nor should we attribute bad weather or poor health to God. Or even good health and good weather.

The universe has been already set in motion and is working out the way that it will.

False comment about Gods Love!