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Robert Pate
October 19th, 2015, 07:52 AM
The book of Revelation was the final book of the bible. There are no further revelations. This means that God is not revealing anything new. When God is revealing something it is accompanied by signs and miracles. On the day of Pentecost God was revealing the Gospel of his Son Jesus Christ, it was followed by signs and miracles. Now that we have the full revelation of Christ and his Gospel in the New Testament signs and miracles have ceased.

God has said all that is going to say when he gave us Christ.

"God who at sundry times and in divers manners spoke in times past unto the fathers by the prophets. Has in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he has appointed all things, by whom also he made the worlds" Hebrews 1:1, 2.

The last days are the days that follow after the resurrection and ascension of Christ into heaven. We are now living in the last days. There are no new apostles such as John Calvin or whoever. There are no new revelations or doctrines such as Catholicism. The Bible is a closed book.

To look for signs and miracles today is to be an adulturous and sinful generation, Matthew 12:39. The reason that there are no signs or miracles today is because God is not communicating anything new to us. He does not want to take away from the greatest miracle of all miracles, the incarnation and Gospel of his Son Jesus Christ.

This is the church age, it is also the age of grace and faith. This is the age that God is adding to his church through the preaching of the Gospel of his Son Jesus Christ. Faith in Christ and his Gospel is the entrance into eternal life. To say that God is still doing miracles is to say that God has something further to communicate to us. There is nothing further.

patrick jane
October 19th, 2015, 08:08 AM
The book of Revelation was the final book of the bible. There are no further revelations. This means that God is not revealing anything new. When God is revealing something it is accompanied by signs and miracles. On the day of Pentecost God was revealing the Gospel of his Son Jesus Christ, it was followed by signs and miracles. Now that we have the full revelation of Christ and his Gospel in the New Testament signs and miracles have ceased.

God has said all that is going to say when he gave us Christ.

"God who at sundry times and in divers manners spoke in times past unto the fathers by the prophets. Has in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he has appointed all things, by whom also he made the worlds" Hebrews 1:1, 2.

The last days are the days that follow after the resurrection and ascension of Christ into heaven. We are now living in the last days. There are no new apostles such as John Calvin or whoever. There are no new revelations or doctrines such as Catholicism. The Bible is a closed book.

To look for signs and miracles today is to be an adulturous and sinful generation, Matthew 12:39. The reason that there are no signs or miracles today is because God is not communicating anything new to us. He does not want to take away from the greatest miracle of all miracles, the incarnation and Gospel of his Son Jesus Christ.

This is the church age, it is also the age of grace and faith. This is the age that God is adding to his church through the preaching of the Gospel of his Son Jesus Christ. Faith in Christ and his Gospel is the entrance into eternal life. To say that God is still doing miracles is to say that God has something further to communicate to us. There is nothing further.

True in the Biblical sense. The Holy Spirit still communicates with us and God hears our prayers. True, there will be no new prophetic information. No new signs and wonders until the very last days. No new chapters or books in the Bible.

Robert Pate
October 19th, 2015, 08:18 AM
True in the Biblical sense. The Holy Spirit still communicates with us and God hears our prayers. True, there will be no new prophetic information. No new signs and wonders until the very last days. No new chapters or books in the Bible.

Right, The only thing that we are to look for today is the return of Jesus, plus nothing.

Cruciform
October 19th, 2015, 03:19 PM
There are no new revelations or doctrines such as Catholicism. The Bible is a closed book.
This is merely a Straw Man Fallacy on Pate's part, since the Catholic Church does not claim that there have been "new revelations or doctrines" after the death of the last apostle. Catholics agree that "the Bible is a closed book," and that there will be no more Scriptures written or added to the biblical canon.

That being said, the Catholic Church does teach the reality of ongoing doctrinal development in the sense that the original depositum fidei ("deposit of faith") taught by the apostles is continually expounded and explained in more depth and detail over the history of Christ's one historic Church. Hence, our understanding of apostolic doctrine grows and develops over time. For more info, see this (http://www.catholic.com/tracts/can-dogma-develop) and this (http://www.philvaz.com/apologetics/a77.htm).

So much for Pate's latest fallacious anti-Catholic claim.



Gaudium de veritate,

Cruciform
+T+

Bradley D
October 19th, 2015, 08:19 PM
On the day of Pentecost God was revealing the Gospel of his Son Jesus Christ, it was followed by signs and miracles.

On the day of Pentecost God gave the Apostles the Holy Spirit to help reveal the gospel and guide them. Believers receive the Holy Spirit today to help reveal the gospel and guide them.

Robert Pate
October 20th, 2015, 08:36 AM
On the day of Pentecost God gave the Apostles the Holy Spirit to help reveal the gospel and guide them. Believers receive the Holy Spirit today to help reveal the gospel and guide them.


Right.

The Holy Spirit is also our teacher.

Scripture concerning the Holy Spirit, John 14:17, John 14:26, John 15:26, John 16:13, 14.

WonderfulLordJesus
October 20th, 2015, 10:15 AM
Catholics agree that "the Bible is a closed book," and that there will be no more Scriptures written or added to the biblical canon.

That being said, the Catholic Church does teach the reality of ongoing doctrinal development in the sense that the original depositum fidei ("deposit of faith") taught by the apostles is continually expounded and explained in more depth and detail over the history of Christ's one historic Church.

We don't add to it. That being said, we add to it. Makes sense to me.

For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: and if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book. Revelation 22:18-19

HisServant
October 20th, 2015, 11:56 AM
Revelation might be the last book in the bible... order wise. Most scholars believe, however, that it was not the last book written.

So do you discount any book deemed to have been chronologically written after Revelation?

chair
October 20th, 2015, 01:16 PM
This is slightly amusing, considering that we closed the Bible earlier- and did not include any of your "New Testament". Just ask Jesus what is in the Bible, and you'll see what I mean.

Robert Pate
October 20th, 2015, 04:03 PM
Revelation might be the last book in the bible... order wise. Most scholars believe, however, that it was not the last book written.

So do you discount any book deemed to have been chronologically written after Revelation?

Revelation was the last book written.

It was a time of severe persecution, John fled or was exciled to the island of Patmos where he wrote the book.

Muires
October 20th, 2015, 05:11 PM
If John wrote Revelation on Patmos then I'd think that makes Revelation older than the four Gospels. These were written at least 60 years after Christ's death, or so I have learned.

Muires
October 20th, 2015, 05:13 PM
I'm an ordained minister, yet I have always had trouble with the notion that the Bible was the final revelation. It always suggested to me that God stopped speaking to the human race. That cannot be.

aikido7
October 20th, 2015, 05:15 PM
The book of Revelation was the final book of the bible. There are no further revelations. This means that God is not revealing anything new. When God is revealing something it is accompanied by signs and miracles. On the day of Pentecost God was revealing the Gospel of his Son Jesus Christ, it was followed by signs and miracles. Now that we have the full revelation of Christ and his Gospel in the New Testament signs and miracles have ceased.

God has said all that is going to say when he gave us Christ.

"God who at sundry times and in divers manners spoke in times past unto the fathers by the prophets. Has in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he has appointed all things, by whom also he made the worlds" Hebrews 1:1, 2.

The last days are the days that follow after the resurrection and ascension of Christ into heaven. We are now living in the last days. There are no new apostles such as John Calvin or whoever. There are no new revelations or doctrines such as Catholicism. The Bible is a closed book.

To look for signs and miracles today is to be an adulturous and sinful generation, Matthew 12:39. The reason that there are no signs or miracles today is because God is not communicating anything new to us. He does not want to take away from the greatest miracle of all miracles, the incarnation and Gospel of his Son Jesus Christ.

This is the church age, it is also the age of grace and faith. This is the age that God is adding to his church through the preaching of the Gospel of his Son Jesus Christ. Faith in Christ and his Gospel is the entrance into eternal life. To say that God is still doing miracles is to say that God has something further to communicate to us. There is nothing further.There will always be a door that separates us from God. Maybe that's why Jesus used the metaphor "Knock, and it shall be opened."

God is profoundly different from the metaphors and theological phrases used to describe him in the Bible.

In my view--to continue the metaphor--the door has a peephole made so we can look outside of it.

But it's a peep hole. We can never see it face-to-face. It's simply too glorious and awesome. Our finite brains have to reduce God's love to reduce it down so we humans can live in it without turning insane or something.

aikido7
October 20th, 2015, 05:16 PM
Revelation might be the last book in the bible... order wise. Most scholars believe, however, that it was not the last book written.

So do you discount any book deemed to have been chronologically written after Revelation?

Many early Christians (Luther comes to mind) did not think the book belonged in the canon.

tetelestai
October 20th, 2015, 05:23 PM
For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: and if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book. Revelation 22:18-19

That only applies to the Revelation John was given, not the rest of the Bible.

Paul's epistles were written after John wrote Revelation.

Paul refers to John's Revelation in the following passage:

(2 Cor 12:2) I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven. Whether it was in the body or out of the body I do not know--God knows.

Now, compare that to what John said about himself being caught up to Heaven in the spirit:

(Rev 4:1-2) After this I looked, and there before me was a door standing open in heaven. And the voice I had first heard speaking to me like a trumpet said, “Come up here, and I will show you what must take place after this.” 2 At once I was in the Spirit, and there before me was a throne in heaven with someone sitting on it.

However, the OP of this thread is correct. Since 70AD nothing has been added.

WonderfulLordJesus
October 20th, 2015, 07:12 PM
That only applies to the Revelation John was given, not the rest of the Bible.

This is immaterial, beside the point. The point is, you don't change or corrupt the word of God: the severity of God against what amounts to false prophecy, deception and defiling His word is clear of this verse. To say Revelation is taboo, but it's open season on the rest of God's inspired, holy word is, obviously, foolish. Lying and liars are hugely condemned in the Bible, and not simply regarding God's word! By the way, the devil is the father of lies and liars.

But, if you fancy the Bible can, otherwise, be monkeyed with, then how about this?

Deuteronomy 4

1 Now therefore hearken, O Israel, unto the statutes and unto the judgments, which I teach you, for to do them, that ye may live, and go in and possess the land which the LORD God of your fathers giveth you.
2 Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you.

Or this:

Proverbs 30

5 Every word of God is pure: he is a shield unto them that put their trust in him.
6 Add thou not unto his words, lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar.

If you've ever read the earliest, extra-Biblical writings of the early church fathers, they add nothing to scripture, just reiterate scripture, between much clearly human rhetoric and ramblings, painfully so, not the succinct, inspired style of God. One is most struck they are saying nothing new. Hence, those earliest church fathers, the likes of even Polycarp, a student of John, did not receive new revelations. Of course, since after then, the extra-Biblical has wandered into fables, false doctrines of demons and sinful men, and, in our day, utter foolishness, wall-to-wall, none of which is "thus saith the Lord." There have been nothing but false prophets who've deigned to add to the Bible, so much so people should know better, by the very track record of this perverse foolishness the past couple thousand years.

The reason you have scripture is so that you may know what the reliable word of God is, like a yardstick by which to measure all things as to how they measure up to the things of God. Also, God created the universe, the Bible we have not some accident. I think that same God, who created all things, may be able to write a reliable book and preserve His word. Think about it. God couldn't even hold you responsible for truth, without some reliable place to find it. All scripture is inspired, penned by holy men of God.

It's adamant the wise stick to the reliable word of God of scripture, and none but the foolish dare add to it or take away from it, and the whole Bible, not just Revelation. God's word is God's word, all of it, and you don't distort any of it, if you'd not prefer the wrath of God.

1Mind1Spirit
October 20th, 2015, 07:27 PM
Revelation was the last book written.


Nope.



It was a time of severe persecution, John fled or was exciled to the island of Patmos where he wrote the book.

Yep, when Herod Antipas killed his brother and took Peter.

Way before you think he was there.

tetelestai
October 20th, 2015, 09:40 PM
The point is, you don't change or corrupt the word of God:

I never said anyone could.

Go back and read the context.

The question presented was that if any of the books of the NT were written after Revelation, than Rev 22:18-19 would render them not valid.

Since I believe Revelation was written before many of the Apostle Paul's epistles, Rev 22:18-19 doesn't apply to Paul's epistles because Rev 22:18-19 applies only to John's Revelation.

That doesn't mean I disregard the rest of the Bible.

daqq
October 21st, 2015, 12:32 AM
Paul's epistles were written after John wrote Revelation.

Paul refers to John's Revelation in the following passage:

(2 Cor 12:2) I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven. Whether it was in the body or out of the body I do not know--God knows.

Now, compare that to what John said about himself being caught up to Heaven in the spirit:

(Rev 4:1-2) After this I looked, and there before me was a door standing open in heaven. And the voice I had first heard speaking to me like a trumpet said, “Come up here, and I will show you what must take place after this.” 2 At once I was in the Spirit, and there before me was a throne in heaven with someone sitting on it.


:thumb:

And Paul clearly states where his Gospel came from:

Galatians 1:11-12
11. But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not according to man:
12. for I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by Apokalupseos Yeshua Christou.

Revelation 1:1a
1a. Apokalupsis Yeshua Christou

And, yes, both apokalupseos and apokalupsis are singular forms. :)

HisServant
October 21st, 2015, 07:28 AM
If John wrote Revelation on Patmos then I'd think that makes Revelation older than the four Gospels. These were written at least 60 years after Christ's death, or so I have learned.

Revelation seems to have been written by John at three distinct times in his life... this is evident by the 3 distinct writing styles of the texts.

Either that, or there were 3 different authors.

Robert Pate
October 21st, 2015, 07:41 AM
The book of Revelation is the end or the final revelation of the New Testament.

After the book of Revelation there are no other revelations. The Bible is a closed book.

fzappa13
October 21st, 2015, 07:55 AM
The book of Revelation is the end or the final revelation of the New Testament.

After the book of Revelation there are no other revelations. The Bible is a closed book.

The Bible is a closed book for many for reasons other than you suggest.

Robert Pate
October 21st, 2015, 08:00 AM
The Bible is a closed book for many for reasons other than you suggest..

Maybe you should name them.

There are many that believe that God is still communicating something to us through tongues, visions, miracles, etc.

HisServant
October 21st, 2015, 08:12 AM
The book of Revelation is the end or the final revelation of the New Testament.

After the book of Revelation there are no other revelations. The Bible is a closed book.

And who told you this?... who told you what books should be in the new and old testament?

Are you satisfied with Roman Catholics dictating the entirety of scripture to you?

Robert Pate
October 21st, 2015, 08:20 AM
And who told you this?... who told you what books should be in the new and old testament?

Are you satisfied with Roman Catholics dictating the entirety of scripture to you?

Who told you that the Catholic church wrote the Bible?

As far as I can see the selection of the books of the Bible was correct.

HisServant
October 21st, 2015, 08:26 AM
Who told you that the Catholic church wrote the Bible?

As far as I can see the selection of the books of the Bible was correct.

The Catholic Church did not write the Bible... but it DID determine what would be in the cannon and what would not be.

So basically, you saying the Bible is a closed book is putting yourself under a decision of the Roman Catholic Church...

They formalized the New Testament in their Councils of Hippo and Carthage.

Before then, the books of the new testament were circulated individually and there were a lot of other gospels and writings of Paul and other Apostles that were also circulated.

What Rome did was throw out writings that they did not agree with and embrace ones they did.. which is where you got your 27 books of the New Testament.

It was they that put Revelation at the end to... to specifically get the verse you are citing in the last book of the New Testament so to the reader it would look like their decision on the books of the New Testament was final.

You need to open your eyes to history.

Robert Pate
October 21st, 2015, 08:46 AM
The Catholic Church did not write the Bible... but it DID determine what would be in the cannon and what would not be.

So basically, you saying the Bible is a closed book is putting yourself under a decision of the Roman Catholic Church...

They formalized the New Testament in their Councils of Hippo and Carthage.

Before then, the books of the new testament were circulated individually and there were a lot of other gospels and writings of Paul and other Apostles that were also circulated.

What Rome did was throw out writings that they did not agree with and embrace ones they did.. which is where you got your 27 books of the New Testament.

It was they that put Revelation at the end to... to specifically get the verse you are citing in the last book of the New Testament so to the reader it would look like their decision on the books of the New Testament was final.

You need to open your eyes to history.

HOGWASH!

The Catholic church had nothing to do with the content of the books of the Bible.

They are an accurate witness to Jesus Christ and his Gospel. I believe that it has been reserved and protected by God.

If you want further revelation than what is in the Bible, you are out of luck, there is none.

HisServant
October 21st, 2015, 08:57 AM
HOGWASH!

The Catholic church had nothing to do with the content of the books of the Bible.

They are an accurate witness to Jesus Christ and his Gospel. I believe that it has been reserved and protected by God.

If you want further revelation than what is in the Bible, you are out of luck, there is none.

Hogwash?... are you choosing to be ignorant of how your Bible came to be?

Show me where God inspired a table of contents! If you cannot, you are fooling yourself.

The facts are the facts.

If you chose to accept the books as the bible as a matter of faith.. than that is your choice, but it has no biblical support or basis in fact when it comes to history.

Whether you want to admit it or not, the books included in your bible are a Roman Catholic decision.

Grosnick Marowbe
October 21st, 2015, 09:04 AM
Hogwash?... are you choosing to be ignorant of how your Bible came to be?

Show me where God inspired a table of contents! If you cannot, you are fooling yourself.

The facts are the facts.

If you chose to accept the books as the bible as a matter of faith.. than that is your choice, but it has no biblical support or basis in fact when it comes to history.

Whether you want to admit it or not, the books included in your bible are a Roman Catholic decision.

I take it, you don't trust the Scriptures? Well then, close your Bible,
open up a National Enquirer or other reading material and leave the
Bible to us, who believe that the Scriptures are "God inspired" and
protected by the Holy Spirit for all eternity.

Robert Pate
October 21st, 2015, 09:07 AM
Hogwash?... are you choosing to be ignorant of how your Bible came to be?

Show me where God inspired a table of contents! If you cannot, you are fooling yourself.

The facts are the facts.

If you chose to accept the books as the bible as a matter of faith.. than that is your choice, but it has no biblical support or basis in fact when it comes to history.

Whether you want to admit it or not, the books included in your bible are a Roman Catholic decision.



The sole purpose of the Bible is to reveal Jesus Christ and his Gospel.

This it does and it does it very well.

I trust the witness of Christ and his Gospel that is recorded in the New Testament books. You should too.

Grosnick Marowbe
October 21st, 2015, 09:08 AM
You need to open your eyes to history.

And, you need to place your faith in God's ability to, "Spiritually"
protect and reserve the Scriptures. Or, like I already stated, let
those who trust the Bible continue to do so. We don't need YOU
to okay the truths of the Bible. Evidently, you take yourself way
too seriously.

HisServant
October 21st, 2015, 09:13 AM
And, you need to place your faith in God's ability to, "Spiritually"
protect and reserve the Scriptures. Or, like I already stated, let
those who trust the Bible continue to do so. We don't need YOU
to okay the truths of the Bible. Evidently, you take yourself way
too seriously.

I am a realist... I don't believe something just because someone else tells me to.

The Table of Contents of the Bible are strictly a human invention.

HisServant
October 21st, 2015, 09:13 AM
The sole purpose of the Bible is to reveal Jesus Christ and his Gospel.

This it does and it does it very well.

I trust the witness of Christ and his Gospel that is recorded in the New Testament books. You should too.

I thought that was the Holy Spirits job?... not a single witness in the New Testament speaks to an eventual 'canon' of scripture.

FYI, for the first 300+ years of Christianity the bible did not exist... various books (some eventually made it into the canon and some didn't).

Are you insinuating that since they did not have a completed bible they were somehow unsaved or inferior to us in their understanding of Jesus?

But than again, you still cant seem to acknowledge that the table of contents of your bible is a roman catholic invention.

Robert Pate
October 22nd, 2015, 08:27 AM
I thought that was the Holy Spirits job?... not a single witness in the New Testament speaks to an eventual 'canon' of scripture.

FYI, for the first 300+ years of Christianity the bible did not exist... various books (some eventually made it into the canon and some didn't).

Are you insinuating that since they did not have a completed bible they were somehow unsaved or inferior to us in their understanding of Jesus?

But than again, you still cant seem to acknowledge that the table of contents of your bible is a roman catholic invention.


The table of content has nothing to do with the revelation of Christ and his Gospel. I could care less about the table of content.

The Bible is a witness to Christ and his Gospel. How we got it is not really important. What is important is who wrote it. John said, "These things are written so that you can believe". What things? The things about Christ and his Gospel.

WonderfulLordJesus
October 22nd, 2015, 08:42 AM
And, you need to place your faith in God's ability to, "Spiritually"
protect and reserve the Scriptures. Or, like I already stated, let
those who trust the Bible continue to do so. We don't need YOU
to okay the truths of the Bible. Evidently, you take yourself way
too seriously.

It's always blown my mind what sort of ignorance would claim the Creator of the universe isn't competent to write a reliable book. Further, the Lord holds us responsible for truth, without providing truth distinguishable from false prophecy? What do people believe the purpose of God's Holy Word being laid down in scripture is, in the first place, but to provide a trustworthy record of truth? This is all just common sense. I find the idea we don't have a reliable Bible, God Himself has provided, one of the most stupid claims tares make. And such people don't have squat to offer in any conversation. I cease reading such people, period, as they are literally speaking for the devil, as well as being idiots.

HisServant
October 22nd, 2015, 08:53 AM
The table of content has nothing to do with the revelation of Christ and his Gospel. I could care less about the table of content.

The Bible is a witness to Christ and his Gospel. How we got it is not really important. What is important is who wrote it. John said, "These things are written so that you can believe". What things? The things about Christ and his Gospel.

Wow... just wow....

Cognitive Dissonance.

It seems the bible is more important to you than God.

Robert Pate
October 22nd, 2015, 11:50 AM
Wow... just wow....

Cognitive Dissonance.

It seems the bible is more important to you than God.


No, I am not a Bible worshipper.

The purpose of the Bible is to be a witness for Christ and his Gospel.

This it does very well.