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View Full Version : I believe my skepticism is Valid not ignorant do you ?



boristhespider
October 17th, 2015, 09:24 AM
Hi All,

First time poster so be kind :)

So yesterday i went on a walk with a friend to a medieval Castle ruins at the top of a large hill , on arriving at the summit we sat on a bench and cracked open our thermos flasks to enjoy the view and a hot cup of tea.

All of a sudden two chaps came over and engaged me in a conversation(which is fine untill...) , one of the guys suddenly started announcing that he was an ex criminal ....(at this point i was a bit alarmed and was wondering why you would announce such a personal thing to two complete strangers) then it became obvious , as he continued the story he stated he had found God and he had been saved also mentioning he and his Friend are committed born again Christians.

Ok so im in two minds at this point, clearly these guys are not here to enjoy the view but are targeting people to ram there views and perception (of what seemed like extremely cherry picked verses and quotes from the bible ) down peoples throats , they had been talking to a group of 5 lads before we arrived who on seeing us slipped away quickly.. now i knew why.

I explained i totally respect there views and beliefs but had come to enjoy the view and not to have a theological debate , plus my female friend was clearly very uncomfortable with the discussion , at this point one of the chaps started to call me ignorant as i was explaining how i need to see hard evidence to believe in such a big thing as a GOD , he explained how i was made in Gods image and that as a non believer would be heading firmly to hell .... this interested me and my response was " well if i am made in Gods image then surely God has a Conscience and will give me a chance to accept him on my death , as that is what i would do " i also followed by saying " i think God would also respect my decision to be skeptical as it shows i can think for myself will not be swayed by pressure from others and have not rejected him i simply want to know he exists before committing myself blindly based on advice from somebody else"

This angered the chap`s they both wandered off , but not before turning and warning me again about my impending doom.

So im interested on people views on A : my view on skepticism & B: these guys behavior and in my view ignorance.

Thanks All.

Buzzword
October 17th, 2015, 09:35 AM
Constructive skepticism is always valid.

Especially in a situation like this, in which you are set upon by total strangers trying to rhetorically wrestle you to the ground.
Most especially when said strangers end up being intellectual lightweights when actually challenged.

boristhespider
October 17th, 2015, 09:43 AM
I totally agree , i am not trying to provoke an argument but this encounter really got me thinking about religion as a whole and specifically some Christian beliefs , (the virgin birth , Moses parting the sea ...as two quick examples)

I am of the opinion that a lot of events are metaphorical references and based on scientific facts are impossible , again i am happy to be proved wrong but am perplexed how intelligent people just accept what on face value are bizarre unbelievable one off events.

Thanks for replying

ok doser
October 17th, 2015, 10:11 AM
... i simply want to know he exists ...



you know He exists


romans 1:20

Town Heretic
October 17th, 2015, 10:12 AM
Hi All,

First time poster so be kind :)
Welcome to the boards, actively speaking.


So yesterday i went on a walk with a friend to a medieval Castle ruins at the top of a large hill , on arriving at the summit we sat on a bench and cracked open our thermos flasks to enjoy the view and a hot cup of tea.
Sounds pleasant, as ideas go.


All of a sudden two chaps came over and engaged me in a conversation(which is fine untill...) , one of the guys suddenly started announcing that he was an ex criminal ....(at this point i was a bit alarmed and was wondering why you would announce such a personal thing to two complete strangers) then it became obvious , as he continued the story he stated he had found God and he had been saved also mentioning he and his Friend are committed born again Christians.
A peculiar introduction, to be sure, but at least the second part introduced a note of ease in an otherwise discomforting moment.


Ok so im in two minds at this point, clearly these guys are not here to enjoy the view but are targeting people to ram there views and perception (of what seemed like extremely cherry picked verses and quotes from the bible ) down peoples throats , they had been talking to a group of 5 lads before we arrived who on seeing us slipped away quickly.. now i knew why.
Did it seem that way or is that how you're thinking back on it now? Because it seems a bit...hostile. Ram? Clearly not to enjoy? See what I mean?

Why can't they have simply picked a location they favored to bring their witness to? Think of it as getting to pick the place where you go to work, if you love your work and can manage it. That's another way to see it, provided they were prepared to disengage when asked.


I explained i totally respect there views and beliefs
Their cherry picked beliefs they meant to ram down the throats of others? Is it that you actually respected them or that you'd like to think of yourself as having that sort of response, but maybe you're carrying your own baggage into it?


but [I] had come to enjoy the view and not to have a theological debate , plus my female friend was clearly very uncomfortable with the discussion , at this point one of the chaps started to call me ignorant
Then he had zeal but no understanding of what he was about and his friend should have stepped in or they should have been with a more mature fellow of the faith. Sounds like they're in over their well meaning heads at this point. And I say well meaning because of what follows.

It happens. There are two potential explanations for the way this has gone. One holds the fellow who just spoke completely at fault and the best admonishment to him would have been, "This isn't helping your witness or making me more likely to hear it." The second potential here might find root in your anticipation and response, the difference between how you see yourself and how he might have read you.

Doesn't excuse him, but maybe you were presenting a vaguely or not so vaguely hostile reaction, intended or not, from tone to posture and this fellow, who seems eager, but young in his faith, felt challenged and took the wrong approach in response. Maybe that was part of the reason he went the wrong way prior to his conversion and it's a lesson that he still needs to learn to some extent.

A lot of variables here.


as i was explaining how i need to see hard evidence to believe in such a big thing as a GOD , he explained how i was made in Gods image and that as a non believer would be heading firmly to hell .... this interested me and my response was " well if i am made in Gods image then surely God has a Conscience and will give me a chance to accept him on my death , as that is what i would do "
The problem with that is twofold. First, it presumes that if a God exists His ways and standards are yours. Now that either means you think too little of God or too much of your own standards. But if God exists you have to begin with the premise that He's correct and more than that. So instead of anticipating God conforming Himself to your expectations you'd have to be open to conforming your conduct and thinking to a higher one. Second, you've engaged yourself at that point in a debate when you said you wanted to be (gently?) rid of them. So you're presenting a contradiction of sorts to them and you've already had reason to suspect they aren't really ready to engage you on the point in that fashion.


i also followed by saying " i think God would also respect my decision to be skeptical
Same comment/critique as above (see: standards).


as it shows i can think for myself will not be swayed by pressure from others and have not rejected him i simply want to know he exists before committing myself blindly based on advice from somebody else"
Now you're insulting them if you think on it. You just implied that they can't think for themselves, inferred they at least might have committed "blindly" on the advice of someone else.

As to your being open to more, I'm in. It's something God can work with and if you keep it, in time, I expect that He will. But you have to consider that openness in relation to the thing you don't appear to see in yourself. It's a little hostile. Maybe not as open as you'd want to be. Something to consider at any rate.


This angered the chap`s
Sure. I think if you consider what I've said you'll see some part of you meant to or should have understood the inevitability of it given their approach and, well, supra. :eek: In fairness, it's human nature to get a bit aggressive when met by a challenge that goes to the root of who we are, of our context for life. True for everyone involved.


they both wandered off
Did they really though? I mean, consider that description in light of what I'm suggesting here. Did they suddenly stop speaking and then wander off? Or did they at some point possibly begin to realize their mistake, or maybe the other fellow did and began moving the one who didn't. Did they realize this wasn't advancing their cause and might they have begun to learn something valuable, while not being completely at a point to see it?


but not before turning and warning me again about my impending doom.
Sounds more like disengaging than wandering off... like frustration mingled with a sense of recognition that they didn't meet the opportunity well. They likely meant a good and seem to begin to see that good was thwarted, at least to some extent, by the form of their engagement. I hope it's a lesson for them when they counsel and consider it more fully. Who knows, maybe both of you will learn and profit by it.


So im interested on people views on A : my view on skepticism & B: these guys behavior and in my view ignorance.

Thanks All.
I'm not a particular fan of skepticism as it begins with doubt. I prefer a more agnostic approach, which is a bit less jaded and more receptive. When I was an atheist I would have expressed it as: I don't believe as you do or see reason to, but I don't know the answers to all sorts of questions and so I'll tell you this, whatever the truth is I hope to know it and will never count myself as an enemy of it.

In fact, I was an avid seeker of truth in one form or another, read a great deal of writing in various faiths trying to get to the bottom of what seemed to me a human truth, the need to reconcile our natures and being. I thought of religion as a codified record of the attempt without thinking there was much beyond it. And I held that amiable disconnect until God nudged me.

Welcome, again. :cheers:

OCTOBER23
October 17th, 2015, 10:17 AM
BORISBADENOUGH said,

well if i am made in Gods image then surely God has a Conscience and will give me a chance to accept him on my death , as that is what i would do " i also followed by saying " i think God would also respect my decision to be skeptical
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
PROVE IT.

DROP DEAD.

bybee
October 17th, 2015, 10:21 AM
Hi All,

First time poster so be kind :)

So yesterday i went on a walk with a friend to a medieval Castle ruins at the top of a large hill , on arriving at the summit we sat on a bench and cracked open our thermos flasks to enjoy the view and a hot cup of tea.

All of a sudden two chaps came over and engaged me in a conversation(which is fine untill...) , one of the guys suddenly started announcing that he was an ex criminal ....(at this point i was a bit alarmed and was wondering why you would announce such a personal thing to two complete strangers) then it became obvious , as he continued the story he stated he had found God and he had been saved also mentioning he and his Friend are committed born again Christians.

Ok so im in two minds at this point, clearly these guys are not here to enjoy the view but are targeting people to ram there views and perception (of what seemed like extremely cherry picked verses and quotes from the bible ) down peoples throats , they had been talking to a group of 5 lads before we arrived who on seeing us slipped away quickly.. now i knew why.

I explained i totally respect there views and beliefs but had come to enjoy the view and not to have a theological debate , plus my female friend was clearly very uncomfortable with the discussion , at this point one of the chaps started to call me ignorant as i was explaining how i need to see hard evidence to believe in such a big thing as a GOD , he explained how i was made in Gods image and that as a non believer would be heading firmly to hell .... this interested me and my response was " well if i am made in Gods image then surely God has a Conscience and will give me a chance to accept him on my death , as that is what i would do " i also followed by saying " i think God would also respect my decision to be skeptical as it shows i can think for myself will not be swayed by pressure from others and have not rejected him i simply want to know he exists before committing myself blindly based on advice from somebody else"

This angered the chap`s they both wandered off , but not before turning and warning me again about my impending doom.

So im interested on people views on A : my view on skepticism & B: these guys behavior and in my view ignorance.

Thanks All.

Skepticism is human. I have no thoughts on that.
The abrasive, in your face evangelizing which these types of dipsticks engage in is not Christian behavior. It is a form of self aggrandizing exercise of power.
Whenever one of these types attempts to "save" me, I put on an unctuous face and say "You know, I am going to pray for you. You are obviously very misguided and in serious need of prayer!"
Normally they leave in a huff!
Quite delightful really.

annabenedetti
October 17th, 2015, 10:24 AM
Skepticism is human. I have no thoughts on that.
The abrasive, in your face evangelizing which these types of dipsticks engage in is not Christian behavior. It is a form of self aggrandizing exercise of power.
Whenever one of these types attempts to "save" me, I put on an unctuous face and say "You know, I am going to pray for you. You are obviously very misguided and in serious need of prayer!"
Normally they leave in a huff!
Quite delightful really.


I think maybe boristhespider had an encounter with Truster.

bybee
October 17th, 2015, 10:25 AM
I think maybe boristhespider had an encounter with Truster.

Well....

boristhespider
October 17th, 2015, 10:35 AM
Wow ,

Really appreciate the response,

[/QUOTE]Did it seem that way or is that how you're thinking back on it now? Because it seems a bit...hostile. Ram? Clearly not to enjoy? See what I mean?[/QUOTE]

I do and have given your point careful consideration , yes i would say it was that way instead of the guys offering views , i was being told firmly that God has decreed this and that and that these guys interpretation of these decrees are correct , when i tried to offer alternative interpretation i was waved off.


[/QUOTE]Doesn't excuse him, but maybe you were presenting a vaguely or not so vaguely hostile reaction, intended or not, from tone to posture and this fellow, who seems eager, but young in his faith, felt challenged and took the wrong approach in response. Maybe that was part of the reason he went the wrong way prior to his conversion and it's a lesson that he still needs to learn to some extent.


I can assure you that i was very accommodating to these guys and i no way presented hostility in tone or body language ... actually really valid you bring this up as at the time i was consciously aware that i needed to show these guys i was listening and interested in the conversation , whilst not being patronizing ... maybe i tried to hard.


I'm not a particular fan of skepticism as it begins with doubt. I prefer a more agnostic approach, which is a bit less jaded and receptive[QUOTE]

Ok you can decide... i have called myself a skeptic , however i am quite open to the suggestion of God , in fact would welcome his existence and try to live my life in a way that reflects Christian values .. not because they are Christian but because i think they are good values.

So maybe skeptic is not a valid description .. but thankyou for the response some thought provoking questions and i had to question my behavior and honesty to respond.

boristhespider
October 17th, 2015, 10:37 AM
I clearly have not got the hang of using the quote system :)

boristhespider
October 17th, 2015, 10:38 AM
@October23

haha i tell you what , if you go first and report back i will see you in Church tomorrow.

OCTOBER23
October 17th, 2015, 10:42 AM
BORISBABY,

You obviously do not know your Bible.

1 Corinthians 3:17 If any man defile the temple of God,

him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.

ok doser
October 17th, 2015, 10:43 AM
I clearly have not got the hang of using the quote system :)


you can edit

gotta start with [qu@te]

gotta end with [/qu@te]


replace the @s with Os

OCTOBER23
October 17th, 2015, 10:46 AM
BORISBABY,

You obviously do not know your Bible.

1 Corinthians 3:17 If any man defile the temple of God,

him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.

1 Corinthians 6:20 For ye are bought with a price:

therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are Godís.

DO NOT MURDER - INCLUDES YOURSELF

boristhespider
October 17th, 2015, 10:47 AM
@October,

I have no problem in complete agreement , i do not study the bible but think that is a good thing , i would much rather use a medium like this to get ideas and information , i think the problem with the Bible is not the Bible itself but how people interpret its content and then hold on to its interpretation and can not be swayed ... in my mind that is dangerous and stupid.

boristhespider
October 17th, 2015, 10:49 AM
As an example , i think if you asked 100 people to give the meanings of your quote , you would get 100 different responses .. so who is correct ?

PureX
October 17th, 2015, 10:56 AM
Hi All,

First time poster so be kind :)

So yesterday i went on a walk with a friend to a medieval Castle ruins at the top of a large hill , on arriving at the summit we sat on a bench and cracked open our thermos flasks to enjoy the view and a hot cup of tea.

All of a sudden two chaps came over and engaged me in a conversation(which is fine untill...) , one of the guys suddenly started announcing that he was an ex criminal ....(at this point i was a bit alarmed and was wondering why you would announce such a personal thing to two complete strangers) then it became obvious , as he continued the story he stated he had found God and he had been saved also mentioning he and his Friend are committed born again Christians.

Ok so im in two minds at this point, clearly these guys are not here to enjoy the view but are targeting people to ram there views and perception (of what seemed like extremely cherry picked verses and quotes from the bible ) down peoples throats , they had been talking to a group of 5 lads before we arrived who on seeing us slipped away quickly.. now i knew why.

I explained i totally respect there views and beliefs but had come to enjoy the view and not to have a theological debate , plus my female friend was clearly very uncomfortable with the discussion , at this point one of the chaps started to call me ignorant as i was explaining how i need to see hard evidence to believe in such a big thing as a GOD , he explained how i was made in Gods image and that as a non believer would be heading firmly to hell .... this interested me and my response was " well if i am made in Gods image then surely God has a Conscience and will give me a chance to accept him on my death , as that is what i would do " i also followed by saying " i think God would also respect my decision to be skeptical as it shows i can think for myself will not be swayed by pressure from others and have not rejected him i simply want to know he exists before committing myself blindly based on advice from somebody else"

This angered the chap`s they both wandered off , but not before turning and warning me again about my impending doom.

So im interested on people views on A : my view on skepticism & B: these guys behavior and in my view ignorance.

Thanks All.Self-righteousness is a kind of drug for some people. They need it to feel 'OK' about themselves; to feel 'safe' (saved), to feel as though they are 'on the right track' (in God's graces, etc.). It's a kind of false antidote for the internal fear that some people feel, most likely as a result of an abusive upbringing.

Unfortunately, self-righteousness is a drug that can only be gained by the passing of negative judgment, on others. And as the "addict" comes to need their righteousness "fix" more and more, they need to find more 'victims' to judge, and find wanting. Hence, we have some of these righteousness addicts walking around in public, seeking out other people to pass their negative judgments upon, and thereby feel self-righteous in relation to.

And that's what I think you and your friend ran into the other day. A couple of those righteousness junkies looking for people to judge, and to find themselves righteous in relation to. So you provided them with their momentary fix.

I realize that it's insulting and annoying to find yourself being unfairly judged by strangers, like this. But try to keep in mind that they are addicts of their own odd sort, and not fully in control of their own minds and behaviors. Think of them with compassion, if you can, and as you might had they been drunks, or crack addicts or something.

And WELCOME!

Desert Reign
October 17th, 2015, 11:04 AM
Constructive skepticism is always valid.

Especially in a situation like this, in which you are set upon by total strangers trying to rhetorically wrestle you to the ground.
Most especially when said strangers end up being intellectual lightweights when actually challenged.

I agree. It depends on the culture. It was clearly not normal for them to accost BTS in this way. It was disrespectful.

boristhespider
October 17th, 2015, 11:09 AM
@Purex

Very valid and sensible response (in my opinion) , you know what i came away from the encounter actually feeling sorry for the pair as you suggest .. as i have already stated i think peoples interpretation of accounts in the bible can be really dangerous and at the same time provide some with focus and inner peace.

Why do people allow them self to be led in such fashion ? ... what about people who live life to the full never commit crime provide shelter to the needy .. such people may not follow Christianity so why should they be condemned to purgatory surly God should recognize the good in them and welcome them with open arms.

Town Heretic
October 17th, 2015, 11:51 AM
Wow ,

Really appreciate the response,
De nada. With quotes. The easiest way I've found to divide a thing up is to leave the opening tag alone then type in [/ quote] (without the space, of course) to end the first part you mean to respond to.

From that point on all you have to do is drag and click over each part you want to respond to and, leaving it highlighted, then click the quote bubble directly above where you're typing that looks like a dialogue bubble from a comic book or strip. It's just to the right of the icon that resembles a post card.

Eras the stuff you don't want to respond to, of course, and always give a quick look by clicking Preview Post button before you click on Submit Reply to check for mistakes. Makes a difference. I only offer because I can see you were making the attempt but a lot of it went awry.


I do and have given your point careful consideration , yes i would say it was that way instead of the guys offering views , i was being told firmly that God has decreed this and that and that these guys interpretation of these decrees are correct , when i tried to offer alternative interpretation i was waved off.
Okay, but you're using fairly negative descriptions of them throughout and either that's you looking back and applying a context or, taking it as written, it's you being more negative than you realize and maybe they saw that as well. Else, as I said, they seemed more eager than prepared, but that happens.


Ok you can decide... i have called myself a skeptic , however i am quite open to the suggestion of God , in fact would welcome his existence and try to live my life in a way that reflects Christian values .. not because they are Christian but because i think they are good values.
I like how you couch it, but skepticism is a bit different, as definitions go and so my attempt to clarify on the point. I appreciate your response though. As I said, if you're open to truth it has a way of finding you. Can't ask for more at this point.


So maybe skeptic is not a valid description .. but thankyou for the response some thought provoking questions and i had to question my behavior and honesty to respond.
I generally find that whenever I make myself the complete hero of my narrative (and that's about as human as can be) I'm usually at least a little mistaken. At the very least I've failed to consider the other narrative and that whoever runs it is likely the hero of theirs too.

It can change things when you reflect on it from that perspective. Thanks for the consideration and response. :cheers: And welcome aboard, again.

WonderfulLordJesus
October 17th, 2015, 11:54 AM
i think God would also respect my decision to be skeptical as it shows i can think for myself will not be swayed by pressure from others and have not rejected him i simply want to know he exists before committing myself blindly based on advice from somebody else

The problem I've always seen is not really skepticism, has not ever been, yet, with anybody I've known. This certainly doesn't mean it's impossible otherwise, of course. I don't know everybody, but none I've seen, which makes the probability of intellect and reason prevailing small. Beneath the surface, disbelief has to do with fatal vanity and lack of all important repentance required for salvation, but this is another subject.

The problem is spiritual blindness, that, if you're not born of God, of the Holy Spirit, you will never see the truth. Many say you can't prove there's a God, but a few of us know this isn't true. Fulfilled Bible prophecy proves that only God could have given scripture, only an omniscient, supernatural being could have knowledge of many events, perfectly fulfilled, hundreds and thousands of years before they happened. It's impossible fulfilled Bible prophecy of simply the first coming of the Lord Jesus, in great detail in the Old Testament, could be random, far beyond impossible, by accepted statistical methods of proof, accepted in scientific experimentation to verify a hypothesis. Any other hypothesis, that is, that doesn't have stubborn refusal to believe, under any circumstance, stubborn closed mindedness, at the front end. But the "skeptic" will deny what is right there, in black and white, for thousands of years, on the printed page of God's book that proves, beyond all doubt, as God Himself declares,

Isaiah 46:9-10 Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me, declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure.

It's all over the web, all the evidence you need, places like:

Reliability of the Bible (http://www.reasons.org/articles/articles/fulfilled-prophecy-evidence-for-the-reliability-of-the-bible)

Odds Surrounding Jesus Christ (http://www.christiananswers.net/q-aiia/jesus-odds.html)

There is much like this on the web, at anybody's fingertips to Google, that prove the God of the Bible. (Yet most wouldn't even bother to look, a sort of reverse Christian teaching at work in unregenerate man, "Don't seek, and you won't find.")

But the thing is, in my experience, even a Phd in mathematics will go stupid for believing what he wants to believe, when you show him he's clearly wrong, by the very same proofs of a plethora of other science he will accept as proven, the statistics involving prophecy even a number so high as to not be chance that nobody can name what the "one in a" number is, with so many zeros after it. Everybody I've shown this, personally, still will not believe, as the Lord stated,

Luke 16

27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:
28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

It's not really skepticism with most people. It's not that people can't believe in the Lord, rather they won't believe in the Lord. People wind up in hell, because they refuse to repent, insist on believing what they want to believe, and cannot dislodge that other god, self. I've known many who acknowledge God, but refuse Him, something many try to hide, but it often finally comes to the surface, that it's a matter of refusing God, not wanting God.

I would pray, if you have it in you to think hard about whether you wish to be an eternal loser, that you take a serious look at Jesus Christ, examine the prophecy stats and at least put the skepticism business to bed, realize you are in the most serious trouble anybody can be in, if you don't repent and believe in the Lord Jesus to save you from the sure wrath of God that will fall on all who refuse His grace, and condemn you to eternal hell. When you're one heartbeat away from this, it's not a matter to fool around over. Also, it all becomes clear to you, when you're saved and born from above, of the Holy Spirit. The scales will fall off your blinded eyes, your deaf ears opened, and you finally see what was clearly true and was always there, all the time. In fact, God never asked for blind faith.

Wishing you God's speed to find salvation.

Desert Reign
October 17th, 2015, 11:57 AM
Beneath the surface, disbelief has to do with fatal vanity and lack of all important repentance required for salvation, but this is another subject.

In my experience, there are a great many Christians, not least on this board, who are just as vain as the non-Christians they accuse of vanity.

patrick jane
October 17th, 2015, 12:02 PM
In my experience, there are a great many Christians, not least on this board, who are just as vain as the non-Christians they accuse of vanity.

I'm so vain, I probably think this post is about me !!

patrick jane
October 17th, 2015, 12:06 PM
Self-righteousness is a kind of drug for some people. They need it to feel 'OK' about themselves; to feel 'safe' (saved), to feel as though they are 'on the right track' (in God's graces, etc.). It's a kind of false antidote for the internal fear that some people feel, most likely as a result of an abusive upbringing.

Unfortunately, self-righteousness is a drug that can only be gained by the passing of negative judgment, on others. And as the "addict" comes to need their righteousness "fix" more and more, they need to find more 'victims' to judge, and find wanting. Hence, we have some of these righteousness addicts walking around in public, seeking out other people to pass their negative judgments upon, and thereby feel self-righteous in relation to.

And that's what I think you and your friend ran into the other day. A couple of those righteousness junkies looking for people to judge, and to find themselves righteous in relation to. So you provided them with their momentary fix.

I realize that it's insulting and annoying to find yourself being unfairly judged by strangers, like this. But try to keep in mind that they are addicts of their own odd sort, and not fully in control of their own minds and behaviors. Think of them with compassion, if you can, and as you might had they been drunks, or crack addicts or something.

And WELCOME!

So you just assume anybody that approaches you and talks about Jesus is judging or looking for folks to pass judgement on ? that's nuts.

patrick jane
October 17th, 2015, 12:07 PM
@October,

I have no problem in complete agreement , i do not study the bible but think that is a good thing , i would much rather use a medium like this to get ideas and information , i think the problem with the Bible is not the Bible itself but how people interpret its content and then hold on to its interpretation and can not be swayed ... in my mind that is dangerous and stupid.

1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV -

WonderfulLordJesus
October 17th, 2015, 12:17 PM
So you just assume anybody that approaches you and talks about Jesus is judging or looking for folks to pass judgement on ? that's nuts.

Sort of like somebody speeding towards a washed-out bridge at 75 mph, and you're at the side of the road, holding up a sign, "DANGER! THE BRIDGE IS WASHED OUT!" It's offensive and better that you refrain from holding up such signs. Just stop being judgmental! It's selfish, and you're upsetting people you're trying to warn of their pending disaster. Makes sense to me.

PureX
October 17th, 2015, 12:36 PM
So you just assume anybody that approaches you and talks about Jesus is judging or looking for folks to pass judgement on ? that's nuts.I don't believe that people proselytize others because they care about their souls. I believe they do it because they are addicted to the idea of their own righteousness.

And I can make the case for my opinion.

ok doser
October 17th, 2015, 12:39 PM
I don't believe that people proselytize others because they care about their souls.

what do you base this belief on?

any real world experience?

or just stuff you've seen on tv?





And I can make the case for my opinion.

moon landing deniers can make the case for their opinions too :idunno:

PureX
October 17th, 2015, 12:47 PM
@Purex

Very valid and sensible response (in my opinion) , you know what i came away from the encounter actually feeling sorry for the pair as you suggest .. as i have already stated i think peoples interpretation of accounts in the bible can be really dangerous and at the same time provide some with focus and inner peace.The Bible is just a tool, and can be used for either ill or good. Your reaction shows compassion, and I would think that's a good thing.

Why do people allow them self to be led in such fashion ?Well, I think we all get "led" one way or another as we're growing up, and then it becomes difficult to change our thought-habits.

... what about people who live life to the full never commit crime provide shelter to the needy .. such people may not follow Christianity so why should they be condemned to purgatory surly God should recognize the good in them and welcome them with open arms.I doubt that they are.

I would view such people as being Christian; as they exemplify the ideals of Christ. But I am not a religious Christian, myself, so for me, the religious dogmas aren't a necessary part of it. Though I am not against religion for others, because, as you stated, there are plenty of folks who can and do use their religion to help them understand and follow the Christian ideal.

I just don't happen to believe that proselytizing a religious dogma is a particularly Christian activity. I think it's mostly an ego-centric activity on the part of those who engage in it.

Town Heretic
October 17th, 2015, 02:27 PM
I don't believe that people proselytize others because they care about their souls.
Then I'd say whatever your life context you've reached critical mass with cynicism that precludes objectivity. Reminiscent of when Stripe told me, recently, that most people were bad and meant to be, to paraphrase.


I believe they do it because they are addicted to the idea of their own righteousness.
I'm sure anything is true of some, but that's a dangerously blind rule you're advancing.


And I can make the case for my opinion.
To whom? I suspect you mean you can make a case that satisfies you, may satisfy others but will be roundly rejected by still others whom you will then decide are each and every the very person you're speaking of...


I just don't happen to believe that proselytizing a religious dogma is a particularly Christian activity. I think it's mostly an ego-centric activity on the part of those who engage in it.
Jesus differed with you, as did his apostles and I don't think you adequately describe their motivation, supra.

Town Heretic
October 17th, 2015, 02:43 PM
Why do people allow them self to be led in such fashion ?
So you're saying that if you write a really bad essay early on it's a comment on the point of essays? Or you should question why you allow your instructors to lead you into bad essays? It's just the nature of growth. Most good writers start out as bad ones. The best of poets have cringe worthy papers buried in some collection for private reflection and a laugh.

My earliest attempts at pulling off a good photograph were almost uniformly awful, flawed, lacking an understanding of any number of conventions I'd learn.

The other day I won an award for one. Because that's how you get here from there. Compassion for two men who did poorly what they meant to do well is one thing, moving beyond that into even the appearance of a benign but assumptive form of contempt is something else.


... what about people who live life to the full never commit crime provide shelter to the needy .. such people may not follow Christianity so why should they be condemned to purgatory surly God should recognize the good in them and welcome them with open arms.
That's you conforming God to your expectations again. To take on a few things. Refraining from doing evil isn't doing good. So someone who never committed a murder doesn't merit a good conduct star or any particular praise, let alone what you suggest. You aren't supposed to murder people, or cheat them, or lie to them, etc.

What about those who do good works but reject the premise of the good? I suppose it's a foundational difference. If you're going to approach God by that means (and most faiths have a version of it, in Islam there's an angel counting on each shoulder) in the name of some roughly just tally you'd also have to count the things you do that are bad, wrong, evil against those virtues... Lies of every stripe, cruel remarks, cheating on this or that, etc. And I'm not certain anyone comes out well on that count, sure we don't if we include our thoughts/intentions, which Christ did. So if anyone gets what he's earned I think the narrow gate becomes indistinguishable from a closed one. And so the cross and grace and the offer that isn't to be refused, but can be.

PureX
October 17th, 2015, 04:06 PM
Then I'd say whatever your life context you've reached critical mass with cynicism that precludes objectivity. Reminiscent of when Stripe told me, recently, that most people were bad and meant to be, to paraphrase.You are saying this. … But why are you saying it, I wonder?

I'm sure anything is true of some, but that's a dangerously blind rule you're advancing.Not really. It's not like I've recommended the proselytizers be punished for it.

To whom? I suspect you mean you can make a case that satisfies you, may satisfy others but will be roundly rejected by still others whom you will then decide are each and every the very person you're speaking of…To whomever asks. And "satisfaction" is not the pertinent point.

boristhespider
October 17th, 2015, 05:20 PM
@town heretic
Ok you seem to be determined to assume i am linking my perceived values of good for the purposes of this debate, let me re articulate.

So lets assume there is a child born in a remote African village... he is orphaned... he is brought up by animals in the wilderness ,he lives his entire adult life in solitude... by some amazing co-incidence he lives his entire life true to Christian values and doctrine with receiving no education or awareness of the church or any God .

Should he not have the chance in death to be accepted into heaven ? or are you saying due to complete ignorance that is no fault of his own he is rightly condemned to hell ??

Town Heretic
October 17th, 2015, 08:44 PM
@town heretic
Ok you seem to be determined to assume i am linking my perceived values of good for the purposes of this debate, let me re articulate.
Not sure what you mean by that, so I'll just wing it. I've mostly tried to present an amiable difference on a couple of points and a call for consideration on the whole. I'm not trying to put a feeling into you or assume the worst of you, but your remarks to our resident relativist seemed more in line with the negative blindspot I was warning about earlier.


So lets assume there is a child born in a remote African village... he is orphaned... he is brought up by animals in the wilderness ,he lives his entire adult life in solitude... by some amazing co-incidence he lives his entire life true to Christian values and doctrine with receiving no education or awareness of the church or any God .
How is he then judged? I'll take that on next.


Should he not have the chance in death to be accepted into heaven ?
Have I said that he shouldn't be?


or are you saying due to complete ignorance that is no fault of his own he is rightly condemned to hell ??
I don't even recall the point coming up in our conversation. I am confident that His judgment will be fair and in keeping with His nature, which was demonstrated by the cross. That isn't to say that any man will get a pass, because every man understands the right and wrong in life. But it is to say that we can rely on His judgment and address of those who through no fault of their own were apart from the gospel, that His part will be just and fair.

“Because he hath appointed a day, in which he will judge the world in righteousness” Acts 17:31

Town Heretic
October 17th, 2015, 08:53 PM
You are saying this. … But why are you saying it, I wonder?
Because you wrote:

I don't believe that people proselytize others because they care about their souls.
and I find that dogmatically judgmental, unfair and remarkably blinkered, as cynical a statement as could be found on the point.


Not really. It's not like I've recommended the proselytizers be punished for it.
I didn't say you had. But yes, really. It's a horrible stereotype of the sort that just doesn't rationally stand up. I've known people who pray to be seen praying and it's not hard to spot them and I've known people who went door to door out of an earnest concern and in gratitude. To suggest only the meanest interpretation of action on the point is staggeringly jaded and, I think, contrary to reason.


To whomever asks.
No, you won't make the case to whomever asks...good grief, you might as well be going door to door yourself or shouting at the faithful from a street corner with that bit.


And "satisfaction" is not the pertinent point.
It is if you understand the word. You can argue a case, but making one requires agreement or all you're saying is that you're satisfied on the point and nothing else matters.

Eeset
October 17th, 2015, 09:03 PM
You can argue a case, but making one requires agreement or all you're saying is that you're satisfied on the point and nothing else matters.
Have you been drinking again?

glorydaz
October 17th, 2015, 09:40 PM
Have you been drinking again?

LOL Did it go over your head, too?

patrick jane
October 17th, 2015, 11:20 PM
@town heretic

So lets assume there is a child born in a remote African village... he is orphaned... he is brought up by animals in the wilderness ,he lives his entire adult life in solitude... by some amazing co-incidence he lives his entire life true to Christian values and doctrine with receiving no education or awareness of the church or any God .

Should he not have the chance in death to be accepted into heaven ? or are you saying due to complete ignorance that is no fault of his own he is rightly condemned to hell ??

I have wrestled with that question as some will say he goes to hell. I disagree, as truly good and righteous people are rewarded by God.

aikido7
October 18th, 2015, 12:27 AM
All human beings are naturally skeptical. We all have a judgmental, evaluating mind. It's a divine gift we all share for living in the world.

intojoy
October 18th, 2015, 01:10 AM
I have wrestled with that question as some will say he goes to hell. I disagree, as truly good and righteous people are rewarded by God.

Fail

intojoy
October 18th, 2015, 01:17 AM
@town heretic
Ok you seem to be determined to assume i am linking my perceived values of good for the purposes of this debate, let me re articulate.

So lets assume there is a child born in a remote African village... he is orphaned... he is brought up by animals in the wilderness ,he lives his entire adult life in solitude... by some amazing co-incidence he lives his entire life true to Christian values and doctrine with receiving no education or awareness of the church or any God .

Should he not have the chance in death to be accepted into heaven ? or are you saying due to complete ignorance that is no fault of his own he is rightly condemned to hell ??

The word of God teaches that within creation man has enough evidence for belief in the One God Creator. Scripture further says that if that native looks at his surroundings and concludes that there is a God, and forsakes his idols and those of his fellow tribesmen that God will reveal more truth to him. Eventually some white dude with a bible will show up, share the gospel and whammy he gets saved!

Now ponder this - the revelation of God's existence in creation is sufficient to condemn but not sufficient to save. Salvation is had via the revelation thru God's word the bible.

quip
October 18th, 2015, 03:29 AM
PROVE IT.

DROP DEAD.

By men I learned of God...by those same men I consistently grow disgusted by their learned ways.

quip
October 18th, 2015, 03:37 AM
I don't believe that people proselytize others because they care about their souls.
Then I'd say whatever your life context you've reached critical mass with cynicism that precludes objectivity.


Either that or there's a sought amenity in greater numbers.

PureX
October 18th, 2015, 08:41 AM
The word of God teaches that within creation man has enough evidence for belief in the One God Creator. Scripture further says that if that native looks at his surroundings and concludes that there is a God, and forsakes his idols and those of his fellow tribesmen that God will reveal more truth to him. Eventually some white dude with a bible will show up, share the gospel and whammy he gets saved!

Now ponder this - the revelation of God's existence in creation is sufficient to condemn but not sufficient to save. Salvation is had via the revelation thru God's word the bible.And there we have the very definition of biblical idolatry. A book written by men becomes the magical hand of God, bestowing the miraculous cure for mankind's universal ailment … to those who will agree to worship it as such.

intojoy
October 18th, 2015, 08:51 AM
And there we have the very definition of biblical idolatry. A book written by men becomes the magical hand of God, bestowing the miraculous cure for mankind's universal ailment Ö to those who will agree to worship it as such.

I do not worship the Bible. I worship the God of the Bible. The fact that the Bible is the Word of the Living God means that the Bible is the final authority on the affairs of human life. Plus it is the Bible that should be our source of faith and not miracles or emotional experiences.

PureX
October 18th, 2015, 08:56 AM
Because you wrote:

and I find that dogmatically judgmental, unfair and remarkably blinkered, as cynical a statement as could be found on the point.


I didn't say you had. But yes, really. It's a horrible stereotype of the sort that just doesn't rationally stand up. I've known people who pray to be seen praying and it's not hard to spot them and I've known people who went door to door out of an earnest concern and in gratitude. To suggest only the meanest interpretation of action on the point is staggeringly jaded and, I think, contrary to reason.


No, you won't make the case to whomever asks...good grief, you might as well be going door to door yourself or shouting at the faithful from a street corner with that bit.


It is if you understand the word. You can argue a case, but making one requires agreement or all you're saying is that you're satisfied on the point and nothing else matters.I think your exaggerated protestations reveal a fear of your own that I'm right. A fear you really don't want to acknowledge.

We all have egos, and we are all being controlled by them much of the time. And this is true regardless of what we think is controlling us much of the time. I don't doubt that the proselytizers think they care about the souls of those they want to judge and control with their religious beliefs. But that desire to judge and control reveals the falseness of their proclaimed motive. Because if they really cared about the souls of others, they would understand that you can't help them by judging them and trying to control their thoughts and actions with some religious dogma. We help each other by BEING the spiritual salve that they are in need of: by BEING the forgiveness, by BEING the appreciation, by BEING the joy, and by BEING the wisdom that all human souls seek, to be fulfilled.

All this unsolicited proselytizing ever does is annoy and condemn the victims, while the perpetrators walk away wrongly presuming themselves to be smug, superior, and righteous. Which is really all they wanted, and what all the proselytizing was about.

intojoy
October 18th, 2015, 09:02 AM
Homosexuality is a sin purex.

PureX
October 18th, 2015, 09:08 AM
I do not worship the Bible. I worship the God of the Bible. The fact that the Bible is the Word of the Living God means that the Bible is the final authority on the affairs of human life. Plus it is the Bible that should be our source of faith and not miracles or emotional experiences.According to your post, you have endowed the Bible with the power and authority to "save" those who agree to idolize it the same way you do. That is the definition of idolatry: endowing man-made objects with divine powers and worshipping (revering) them as if they are divine beings.

intojoy
October 18th, 2015, 09:11 AM
According to your post, you have endowed the Bible with the power and authority to "save" those who agree to idolize it the same way you do. That is the definition of idolatry: endowing man-made objects with divine powers and worshipping (revering) them as if they are divine beings.

You're weak. You are reading you preconceived philosophical prejudice into my position. Because of the weakness of your response to my clear post, this is not worth defending.

It's not my fault you aren't able to think thru what I've posted. The sin of homosexuality leads to a reprobate mind.

OCTOBER23
October 18th, 2015, 10:29 AM
Lets see what we have here.

BORIS uses mediums

Purex uses Tools

Heretic is for the birds

Reign likes flowers

Patrickjane is a thinker

Wonderful is wondering

Doser likes Stuff

IntoJoy Enjoys Suffering.

And I am Out to Lunch

Stripe
October 18th, 2015, 10:30 AM
I need to see hard evidence to believe in such a big thing as a GOD.

Here's a rock. :up:

ok doser
October 18th, 2015, 11:10 AM
I have wrestled with that question as some will say he goes to hell. I disagree, as truly good and righteous people are rewarded by God.

i believe this is the position of the RCC, but in order to make it work they have to come up with purgatory and other work-arounds

Town Heretic
October 18th, 2015, 11:16 AM
Heretic is for the birds
That your A game? :Plain: :eek: Well, your day is coming.

See what I did there?



I think your exaggerated protestations
They aren't exaggerations. Your position is an exaggeration. It's so broadly and negatively encompassing it can't be held reasonably, which goes to my counter. Here's your bit again:


I don't believe that people proselytize others because they care about their souls. I believe they do it because they are addicted to the idea of their own righteousness.

That's like suggesting that every republican is a gun owner or every democrat supports abortion. Even if it's mostly true it begs qualification. And you can't and haven't even made the objective case for mostly.


reveal a fear of your own that I'm right. A fear you really don't want to acknowledge.
Along with a fear of cake. :Plain: :chew: So whatever you do don't give me a cake. Or throw one at me. :) No, I understand you're on a mind and heart reading jag, but you're not in the zip code of the parking lot of the tram that takes you to the game with that one.


We all have egos, and we are all being controlled by them much of the time.
You're the most dogmatic relativist I've ever met.


I don't doubt that the proselytizers think they care about the souls of those they want to judge and control with their religious beliefs.
Or maybe they simply believe in the reality of their faith and within its context desire that people outside of it are made free from sin and its control, ruled instead by virtue and a desire for the good.


But that desire to judge and control reveals the falseness of their proclaimed motive.
But it's your invention and insertion, Pure. You decided that they desire to judge and you determined the need for control right before you passed sentence. And you know what you did then? You judged. And now you're trying to control the perception of their motivation. That's what you were attempting with the fear approach to me. And you know what that serves? Ego.


All this unsolicited proselytizing ever does is annoy and condemn the victims,
No, sometimes it begins dialog. Sometimes it even works. Mostly? I think it's mostly an invitation to entrenchment, but you never know. Not my approach, but I'm not going to say it never works because a great revival was once predicated on that tactic.


while the perpetrators walk away wrongly presuming themselves to be smug, superior, and righteous.
Ever? All? Maybe a little, maybe some, or maybe most of the time that's true. I don't know. I don't think you really know either. But i do know that calling people who are trying to do something that serves the good within their context "perpetrators", a word typically reserved for criminal activity...that's just odd.


Which is really all they wanted, and what all the proselytizing was about.
Supra.

PureX
October 18th, 2015, 01:23 PM
That your A game? :Plain: :eek: Well, your day is coming.

See what I did there?

They aren't exaggerations. Your position is an exaggeration. It's so broadly and negatively encompassing it can't be held reasonably, which goes to my counter. Here's your bit again:

That's like suggesting that every republican is a gun owner or every democrat supports abortion. Even if it's mostly true it begs qualification. And you can't and haven't even made the objective case for mostly.

Along with a fear of cake. :Plain: :chew: So whatever you do don't give me a cake. Or throw one at me. :) No, I understand you're on a mind and heart reading jag, but you're not in the zip code of the parking lot of the tram that takes you to the game with that one.

You're the most dogmatic relativist I've ever met.

Or maybe they simply believe in the reality of their faith and within its context desire that people outside of it are made free from sin and its control, ruled instead by virtue and a desire for the good.

But it's your invention and insertion, Pure. You decided that they desire to judge and you determined the need for control right before you passed sentence. And you know what you did then? You judged. And now you're trying to control the perception of their motivation. That's what you were attempting with the fear approach to me. And you know what that serves? Ego.

No, sometimes it begins dialog. Sometimes it even works. Mostly? I think it's mostly an invitation to entrenchment, but you never know. Not my approach, but I'm not going to say it never works because a great revival was once predicated on that tactic.

Ever? All? Maybe a little, maybe some, or maybe most of the time that's true. I don't know. I don't think you really know either. But i do know that calling people who are trying to do something that serves the good within their context "perpetrators", a word typically reserved for criminal activity...that's just odd.So basically, the only argument you can offer is that I didn't qualify my generalizations? Man! That's a pretty weak argument. And it only serves to support my theory that you knew I was right all along, but that you just don't want to acknowledge it. Now, here you are acknowledging it, reluctantly, and then trying throw mud over it as best you can by pointing out my not qualifying my generalizations. … I'm "satisfied".

Unfortunately, I don't think you've learned anything. You're still an automatic apologist for any and all sins committed by your fellow religious Christians. And that's too bad. Because repentance is the beginning of spiritual healing. ;)

Town Heretic
October 18th, 2015, 01:44 PM
So basically, the only argument you can offer is that I didn't qualify my generalizations?
I always know when someone is in trouble. They go for the huge block quote then misstate something. That's what you did there.

To begin with you haven't presented an argument, only a conclusion supported by declarations that are themselves conclusions. Edit: And it was in its offering a broad attack, so the want of qualification is fairly important.

You declared what was in the mind and hearts of those bringing witness and did so universally. I noted that the want of qualification itself spoke to a problem in your methodology and judgment. Then I turned your method on you.


Man! That's a pretty weak argument.
Nice flag. Hand stitched. Too bad you didn't put that work into your posit.


And it only serves to support my theory that you knew I was right all along,
Of course you did. That's always the case when you begin with a conclusion.


Unfortunately, I don't think you've learned anything.
No, but I've seen this tactic before.


You're still an automatic apologist for any and all sins committed by your fellow religious Christians.
No more true than it was the first time you wrote it. I've been fairly harsh with a number of people who use the Bible as a weapon to demean and insult, and/or as an extension of personal malice. I'm equally committed to opposing people who try what you just did. But then, I'm not a relativist, I'm a rationalist.

Rusha
October 18th, 2015, 01:51 PM
This angered the chap`s they both wandered off , but not before turning and warning me again about my impending doom.

So im interested on people views on A : my view on skepticism & B: these guys behavior and in my view ignorance.

Thanks All.

Welcome to the forum, Boris. :)

Skepticism is normal. IF it weren't, there would be no evangelists. IMO, the very fact that these individuals got so nasty says more about their motives and own vulnerabilities than it does about your response.

They lashed out defensively because you presented more of a challenge than they were capable of answering.

1Mind1Spirit
October 18th, 2015, 02:00 PM
It's not my fault you aren't able to think thru what I've posted. The sin of homosexuality leads to a reprobate mind.

Actually the inverse.

The sin of homosexuality is evidence of a reprobate mind.

PureX
October 19th, 2015, 08:07 AM
I always know when someone is in trouble. They go for the huge block quote then misstate something. That's what you did there.Or they don't intend to maintain a pointless 'tit-for-tat' debate in which the point gets lost and you feel most comfortable.

In this instance, it was because that conversation was over. I had made my point, and you had acknowledged it … grudgingly.

bybee
October 19th, 2015, 08:11 AM
Lets see what we have here.

BORIS uses mediums

Purex uses Tools

Heretic is for the birds

Reign likes flowers

Patrickjane is a thinker

Wonderful is wondering

Doser likes Stuff

IntoJoy Enjoys Suffering.

And I am Out to Lunch

What's on the menu?

Town Heretic
October 19th, 2015, 11:01 AM
Or they don't intend to maintain a pointless 'tit-for-tat' debate in which the point gets lost and you feel most comfortable.
Spin it to suit you, I met unsupportable generalities with specific rebuttal and you ran to the safety of a block quote and additional declaration. I feel most comfortable meeting the irrational with argument and demanding either a considered support and rebuttal or what you did, a sort of retreat with fife and drum under cover of declaration.


In this instance, it was because that conversation was over.
I get that you're comfortable declaring. I wish you were as comfortable considering and debating, instead of hiding behind the old, weary parsing and/or "you're just a Christian rubber stamp" nonsense. But to each his own.


I had made my point, and you had acknowledged it … grudgingly.
No, I hadn't, but that might be the best argument for leaving it. :Plain:

intojoy
October 19th, 2015, 11:49 PM
Actually the inverse.

The sin of homosexuality is evidence of a reprobate mind.

That's not supported by scripture.