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George Affleck
October 16th, 2015, 06:42 AM
"IF god were real, why would he spend so much time in white America answering the minutia of prayer he receives while leaving so many millions to starve to death or watch their children starve?"

This is a quote from MrDeets blogpost (http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/blog.php?b=2456) which seems to me to be the essence of a long unanswered difficulty he struggled with. This is a reasonable question and a real issue for many and can be used effectively by Satan if left unanswered.

I encourage all serious, biblical/theological input.

Hawkins
October 16th, 2015, 07:27 AM
If you are starved, you won't be able to sin. Satan and his horde won't keep an eye on you. They will spare you to lead others to sin. They thus won't be able to accuse you of anything on the Judgment Day.

Now who are watching you starving? It is the rich people in the rich countries watching the poor people in poor countries starved without lending a helping hand.

Rich country should allow the immigration of poor people from poor countries instead of watching them die. Politically they won't do it, as this may decrease the living standard of a rich country and politicians will lose votes if they try to do so.

Politicians thus prefer to watching people in Africa die than to losing votes. People in rich countries prefer to keeping their living standard than to lending a helping hand.

God doesn't need to watch the starved as long as Satan doesn't try to claim their souls. God will have to watch those in the rich countries or else Satan will accuse them of murdering starved people by watching them die without doing anything.

fishrovmen
October 16th, 2015, 07:35 AM
There seems to be much speculation in that one quote.
How do we know how many people in "white America" pray to the one true God of our Lord Jesus Christ? How do we know what they pray for and if they pray in faith without doubting?
How many people in other countries pray to the same God for their starving children and family members?
How do we know if God has answered anyones prayers unless we get the answer we want?
There will always be a mystery about the presence of evil, but we can trust in the one true God and His son Jesus Christ that everything has a purpose, even if we can't in these weak bodies understand.
I probably did a poor job, but I gave this my best at this time.

6days
October 16th, 2015, 03:28 PM
"IF god were real, why would he spend so much time in white America answering the minutia of prayer he receives while leaving so many millions to starve to death or watch their children starve?"

This is a quote from MrDeets blogpost which seems to me to be the essence of a long unanswered difficulty he struggled with. This is a reasonable question and a real issue for many and can be used effectively by Satan if left unanswered.

I encourage all serious, biblical/theological input.
Excellent thread, and a great question!

*Why is there so much suffering?*

*Where is God when a 5 year old slowly starves to death?

*Where is a God when a 9 year old girl is raped and murdered?

*Why did God let gramma die?

Or even questions like....
*Why did God let that lion eat the baby zebra while it's mommy watched?

An fellow evangelist and friend of Billy Grahams, Charles Templeton, walked away from faith over unanswered questions like those above. *You have to wonder how differently things might have been had he been more grounded in scripture....had he been brave enough to put his questions to others.*

Even though Templeton was not grounded in scripture, he pastored a large church and drew thousands to crusade meetings.He was considered by some to be a better evangelist than Billy. But.... Templeton was encouraged to get more education and become better grounded in scripture. He attended Princeton...sort of a Christian university at that time. However, Princeton University was teaching a compromised gospel...fitting millions of years of pain, death and suffering into scripture - before sin. Templeton later came to Billy and said *"But, Billy, itís simply not possible any longer to believe, for instance, the biblical account of creation. The world wasnít created over a period of days a few thousand years ago; it has evolved over millions of years. Itís not a matter of speculation; itís demonstrable fact."

Templeton himself explains why questions about suffering drove him from faith..... "Nature is, in Tennysonís vivid phrase, Ďred in tooth and claw,í and life is a carnival of blood....How could a loving and omnipotent God create such horrors as we have been contemplating?". I think Templeton question, like those of MrDeets in the OP, is a major point of attack by Satan in today's world. Christian parents, grandparents, church workers etc should be doing everything possible to make sure our youth receive good apologetic teaching. No compromise!!

So why do we have suffering? *Death and suffering entered our world only after Adam sinned. We live in a world that is cursed. (Read Genesis). *A more idyllic picture of a world without sin and suffering can be found in verses like Isaiah 11:6 "In that day the wolf and the lamb will live together; the leopard will lie down with the baby goat. The calf and the yearling will be safe with the lion, and a little child will lead them all." *As believers, we know we live in a creation that has been corrupted, but we look forward to a time God has promised...."He will wipe every tear from their eyes, and there will be no more death or sorrow or crying or pain. All these things are gone forever."Rev. 21:4

genuineoriginal
October 16th, 2015, 03:36 PM
How many people in other countries pray to the same God for their starving children and family members?
I think the answer to this question is the key to answering the OP.

George Affleck
October 16th, 2015, 09:52 PM
If you are starved, you won't be able to sin. Satan and his horde won't keep an eye on you. They will spare you to lead others to sin. They thus won't be able to accuse you of anything on the Judgment Day.

Now who are watching you starving? It is the rich people in the rich countries watching the poor people in poor countries starved without lending a helping hand.

Rich country should allow the immigration of poor people from poor countries instead of watching them die. Politically they won't do it, as this may decrease the living standard of a rich country and politicians will lose votes if they try to do so.

Politicians thus prefer to watching people in Africa die than to losing votes. People in rich countries prefer to keeping their living standard than to lending a helping hand.

God doesn't need to watch the starved as long as Satan doesn't try to claim their souls. God will have to watch those in the rich countries or else Satan will accuse them of murdering starved people by watching them die without doing anything.

Fairly convoluted comment and, I suspect, not what we are looking for here.
Thanks though.

George Affleck
October 16th, 2015, 09:57 PM
Excellent thread, and a great question!

*Why is there so much suffering?*

*Where is God when a 5 year old slowly starves to death?

*Where is a God when a 9 year old girl is raped and murdered?

*Why did God let gramma die?

Or even questions like....
*Why did God let that lion eat the baby zebra while it's mommy watched?

An fellow evangelist and friend of Billy Grahams, Charles Templeton, walked away from faith over unanswered questions like those above. *You have to wonder how differently things might have been had he been more grounded in scripture....had he been brave enough to put his questions to others.*

Even though Templeton was not grounded in scripture, he pastored a large church and drew thousands to crusade meetings.He was considered by some to be a better evangelist than Billy. But.... Templeton was encouraged to get more education and become better grounded in scripture. He attended Princeton...sort of a Christian university at that time. However, Princeton University was teaching a compromised gospel...fitting millions of years of pain, death and suffering into scripture - before sin. Templeton later came to Billy and said *"But, Billy, itís simply not possible any longer to believe, for instance, the biblical account of creation. The world wasnít created over a period of days a few thousand years ago; it has evolved over millions of years. Itís not a matter of speculation; itís demonstrable fact."

Templeton himself explains why questions about suffering drove him from faith..... "Nature is, in Tennysonís vivid phrase, Ďred in tooth and claw,í and life is a carnival of blood....How could a loving and omnipotent God create such horrors as we have been contemplating?". I think Templeton question, like those of MrDeets in the OP, is a major point of attack by Satan in today's world. Christian parents, grandparents, church workers etc should be doing everything possible to make sure our youth receive good apologetic teaching. No compromise!!

So why do we have suffering? *Death and suffering entered our world only after Adam sinned. We live in a world that is cursed. (Read Genesis). *A more idyllic picture of a world without sin and suffering can be found in verses like Isaiah 11:6 "In that day the wolf and the lamb will live together; the leopard will lie down with the baby goat. The calf and the yearling will be safe with the lion, and a little child will lead them all." *As believers, we know we live in a creation that has been corrupted, but we look forward to a time God has promised...."He will wipe every tear from their eyes, and there will be no more death or sorrow or crying or pain. All these things are gone forever."Rev. 21:4

Good post.
You have faithfully presented the Bible's explanation of "how?".
But what about the "why?"

Why, if He can, doesn't He in the here and now?

George Affleck
October 16th, 2015, 10:08 PM
There seems to be much speculation in that one quote.
How do we know how many people in "white America" pray to the one true God of our Lord Jesus Christ? How do we know what they pray for and if they pray in faith without doubting?
How many people in other countries pray to the same God for their starving children and family members?
How do we know if God has answered anyones prayers unless we get the answer we want?
There will always be a mystery about the presence of evil, but we can trust in the one true God and His son Jesus Christ that everything has a purpose, even if we can't in these weak bodies understand.
I probably did a poor job, but I gave this my best at this time.

I agree with you about the speculation part. There are "niggling" points that we could criticize but I am ignoring these because of the bigger question which is valid.

I also agree with the mystery part. We cannot, and will never, comprehend the infinite purposes of God.

But there are answers! C'mon people; you can do better than that!

Why?

patrick jane
October 16th, 2015, 10:10 PM
"IF god were real, why would he spend so much time in white America answering the minutia of prayer he receives while leaving so many millions to starve to death or watch their children starve?"

This is a quote from MrDeets blogpost (http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/blog.php?b=2456) which seems to me to be the essence of a long unanswered difficulty he struggled with. This is a reasonable question and a real issue for many and can be used effectively by Satan if left unanswered.

I encourage all serious, biblical/theological input.

All I can say is that there is a harsh, cruel and unfair existence on earth for the majority of all that ever lived, At the same time, the good always outweighs the bad overall.

There are immeasurable details about life that make no logical sense. I hold that this life is a blink of an eye and no matter how much pain and suffering we endure it will be so insignificant once we are with the Lord. Sure we can focus on all the brutal realities and lose sight of Jesus, and that is what satan wants, doubt and unbelief.

George Affleck
October 16th, 2015, 10:11 PM
For example, why did he allow misery to befall Job?

Indeed, Why did He decree that His only begotten Son should suffer a horrible death?

George Affleck
October 16th, 2015, 10:12 PM
All I can say is that there is a harsh, cruel and unfair existence on earth for the majority of all that ever lived, At the same time, the good always outweighs the bad overall.

There are immeasurable details about life that make no logical sense. I hold that this life is a blink of an eye and no matter how much pain and suffering we endure it will be so insignificant once we are with the Lord. Sure we can focus on all the brutal realities and lose sight of Jesus, and that is what satan wants, doubt and unbelief.

Great insight PJ.

patrick jane
October 16th, 2015, 10:13 PM
I forgot to mention God is not to blame or responsible for evil, death, or starvation.

God did not create evil and never will.

Eeset
October 16th, 2015, 10:16 PM
"IF god were real, why would he spend so much time in white America answering the minutia of prayer he receives while leaving so many millions to starve to death or watch their children starve?"

This is a quote from MrDeets blogpost (http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/blog.php?b=2456) which seems to me to be the essence of a long unanswered difficulty he struggled with. This is a reasonable question and a real issue for many and can be used effectively by Satan if left unanswered.

I encourage all serious, biblical/theological input.
Seriously? "If god were real" is a poor way to phrase the question. What he is asking is in essence ... why does God spend so much time in white America ... The answer is that God doesn't. And let's continue with the millions starving paradigm. Why do people think God cares about the challenges of material incarnation? That is really rather silly. Do you think that you learn any more in a well fed luxurious life than in a starvation existence?

George Affleck
October 16th, 2015, 10:35 PM
Seriously? "If god were real" is a poor way to phrase the question. What he is asking is in essence ... why does God spend so much time in white America ... The answer is that God doesn't. And let's continue with the millions starving paradigm. Why do people think God cares about the challenges of material incarnation? That is really rather silly. Do you think that you learn any more in a well fed luxurious life than in a starvation existence?

Eeset, are you saying that God does not care about the challenges the poor and starving experience in this material incarnation?

George Affleck
October 16th, 2015, 10:40 PM
A question needs to be asked of those who challenge the reality of a good and loving God based on the evil that happens in our broken world.

How much of the bad that happens would have to disappear to make that person change their mind and acknowledge that there must be a God after all?

Totton Linnet
October 16th, 2015, 10:45 PM
"IF god were real, why would he spend so much time in white America answering the minutia of prayer he receives while leaving so many millions to starve to death or watch their children starve?"

This is a quote from MrDeets blogpost (http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/blog.php?b=2456) which seems to me to be the essence of a long unanswered difficulty he struggled with. This is a reasonable question and a real issue for many and can be used effectively by Satan if left unanswered.

I encourage all serious, biblical/theological input.

White Americans and Europeans failed to tell everyone that the prosperity they enjoy comes from the gospel, is part of the gospel.

They fail to understand it themselves.....if they had understood it the world could have been won...and the darkness of mind is so deep that ths will not even be considered a serious answer.

glorydaz
October 16th, 2015, 10:47 PM
Good post.
You have faithfully presented the Bible's explanation of "how?".
But what about the "why?"

Why, if He can, doesn't He in the here and now?

Because the here and now are but a drop in the bucket of eternity. It's a great mercy when innocents are taken before they suffer too much.

patrick jane
October 16th, 2015, 10:48 PM
White Americans and Europeans failed to tell everyone that the prosperity they enjoy comes from the gospel, is part of the gospel.

They fail to understand it themselves.....if they had understood it the world could have been won...and the darkness of mind is so deep that ths will not even be considered a serious answer.

Do you mean to say that Europe and whites have better lives because they are Christian ? What about blacks and others ?

George Affleck
October 16th, 2015, 10:51 PM
Do you mean to say that Europe and whites have better lives because they are Christian ? What about blacks and others ?

If I may...

She means that they held the truth in their hands and let it slip slowly away by only appreciating it somewhat and not ultimately.

George Affleck
October 16th, 2015, 10:55 PM
Because the here and now are but a drop in the bucket of eternity. It's a great mercy when innocents are taken before they suffer too much.

If I were an unbeliever this would seem like a cop-out. (do we still use that 60's phrase?)

The question is even more forceful if the evil is only a drop! Surely God can eliminate that.

patrick jane
October 16th, 2015, 10:58 PM
For example, why did he allow misery to befall Job?

Indeed, Why did He decree that His only begotten Son should suffer a horrible death?

To further show the the temporality of this life we are blessed with. Like His Son, we are blessed more when we die, with eternal life.

1 Corinthians 15:51 KJV - 1 Corinthians 15:52 KJV -

1 Corinthians 15:53 KJV - 1 Corinthians 15:54 KJV -

1 Corinthians 15:55-56 KJV - 1 Corinthians 15:57 KJV -

CherubRam
October 17th, 2015, 02:27 AM
I forgot to mention God is not to blame or responsible for evil, death, or starvation.

God did not create evil and never will.

Good and evil are concepts created by God. Perhaps what you meant to say is that God does not sin.

fishrovmen
October 17th, 2015, 05:28 AM
As Paul said in Acts 17 and I am paraphrasing of memory here, God has placed each one of us in the place where we live and set up our boundaries that we should seek Him even though He is not far from us.
If there was no evil at all, and everything was "good", and God being invisible to the human eye, then why would we seek Someone or something better?
Hebrews 11 comes to mind, how the elders having been treated so badly by the world confessed that this was not their home for they sought another city whose builder and maker is God.

fishrovmen
October 17th, 2015, 05:40 AM
I was just now thinking that when we talk about "evil" in the world, most of us think about the evil around us, but the Gospel offers hope for the evil WITHIN us. It is only in the bliss of the eternal state where the evil, having been completely taken from within us, will then,also be taken from around us.

6days
October 17th, 2015, 06:22 AM
Good and evil are concepts created by God. Perhaps what you meant to say is that God does not sin.

Is.45:7 in the KJV says God created evil.
The NIV says "I form the light and create darkness, I bring prosperity and create disaster; I, the LORD, do all these things".

As you suggest....God created the opportunity for us to sin / commit evil (reject and disobey Him).
The answer as to why God created evil is LOVE. At first glance, that answer seems counter intuitive. But, in order for love to exist, there also has to exist the possibility of rejection.

God could have created humans without the capacity to disobey. That means we also would not have the capacity to freely obey and freely love. It seems that unbelievers who ask the question 'why', want a God who controls others...but not so much themselves.

OCTOBER23
October 17th, 2015, 06:37 AM
(So many millions starve to death or watch their children starve?)
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
What people are starving to death - do you mean Aushwitz ?

- GOD TRIED TO DEAL WITH REBELLIOUS MANKIND BUT THEY REJECTED HIM-

SO HE LEfT THEM ALONE TO DEAL WITH THEMSELVES

MAN'S INHUMANITY TO MAN INFLUENCED BY SATAN
------------------------------------------------------------

IN 2024 GOD AND JESUS WILL COME BACK AND TAKE OVER AND RETRAIN MANKIND.

That is how I see it.

oatmeal
October 17th, 2015, 06:39 AM
"IF god were real, why would he spend so much time in white America answering the minutia of prayer he receives while leaving so many millions to starve to death or watch their children starve?"

This is a quote from MrDeets blogpost (http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/blog.php?b=2456) which seems to me to be the essence of a long unanswered difficulty he struggled with. This is a reasonable question and a real issue for many and can be used effectively by Satan if left unanswered.

I encourage all serious, biblical/theological input.

Since God is real, He expects to be treated as real, as the real and true God.

Scripture states that you receive not, because you ask not.

James 4:2

Likewise, people do not receive because they ask amiss, James 4:3

God's will is simple and clear. Anyone can find out what God's will if they will read and rightly divide His Word

Until then, it could happen that they might receive something from God, for even a blind squirrel will stumble upon a acorn once in a while.

People who busy themselves serving idols and serving other gods are not praying to the Creator, the God who is love and light and rich in mercy and gracious.

People reap what they sow. People who serve evil gods, get evil results

People who serve the Creator, the God who is love and light and goodness, get love and light and goodness

MrDeets
October 17th, 2015, 06:53 AM
:Popcorn:

George Affleck
October 17th, 2015, 07:08 AM
(So many millions starve to death or watch their children starve?)
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
What people are starving to death - do you mean Aushwitz ?

- GOD TRIED TO DEAL WITH REBELLIOUS MANKIND BUT THEY REJECTED HIM-

SO HE LEfT THEM ALONE TO DEAL WITH THEMSELVES

MAN'S INHUMANITY TO MAN INFLUENCED BY SATAN
------------------------------------------------------------

IN 2024 GOD AND JESUS WILL COME BACK AND TAKE OVER AND RETRAIN MANKIND.

That is how I see it.

If you are going to make stupid comments and not contribute, please do it somewhere else.

George Affleck
October 17th, 2015, 07:29 AM
I was just now thinking that when we talk about "evil" in the world, most of us think about the evil around us, but the Gospel offers hope for the evil WITHIN us. It is only in the bliss of the eternal state where the evil, having been completely taken from within us, will then,also be taken from around us.

This is a good thought.

When we neglect to help the unfortunate we are adding to the burden instead of being part of the solution.

PureX
October 17th, 2015, 07:36 AM
So far, I see no reasonable answers to an age-old question. And the answers I do see are mostly absurd, elitist excuses. If this question were a stumbling block between myself and God, or Christ, none of you will have done anything to remove it. And most of you will have made it even more of an impediment.

George Affleck
October 17th, 2015, 07:36 AM
Since God is real, He expects to be treated as real, as the real and true God.

Scripture states that you receive not, because you ask not.

James 4:2

Likewise, people do not receive because they ask amiss, James 4:3

God's will is simple and clear. Anyone can find out what God's will if they will read and rightly divide His Word

Until then, it could happen that they might receive something from God, for even a blind squirrel will stumble upon a acorn once in a while.

People who busy themselves serving idols and serving other gods are not praying to the Creator, the God who is love and light and rich in mercy and gracious.

People reap what they sow. People who serve evil gods, get evil results

People who serve the Creator, the God who is love and light and goodness, get love and light and goodness

If you believe this, you have less than half the gospel. This is nothing more than retribution; a commodity which God does not deal in exclusively. It is the bad news by which the good news is to be appreciated. He is also full of grace and mercy and has gone to great lengths to include all peoples in forgiveness of sin by faith in Christ.

patrick jane
October 17th, 2015, 07:39 AM
Is.45:7 in the KJV says God created evil.
The NIV says "I form the light and create darkness, I bring prosperity and create disaster; I, the LORD, do all these things".

.

Isaiah 45:7 NKJV - calamity


Isaiah 45:7 NIV - disaster

God did and does NOT CREATE EVIL

George Affleck
October 17th, 2015, 07:48 AM
So far, I see no reasonable answers to an age-old question. And the answers I do see are mostly absurd, elitist excuses. If this question were a stumbling block between myself and God, or Christ, none of you will have done anything to remove it. And most of you will have made it even more of an impediment.

I agree entirely.

And yet, for me, the existence of evil and suffering is actually a proof of God's existence, love, and grace; not a reason to doubt it.

Put your thinking cap on PureX and see if you can contribute positively. It is absolutely true that our modern age rewards the non-thinking, one line, lazy, Twitter/Facebook mentality to the point where it dulls our thinking abilities.

Methinks you and others are happy to retreat into "I dunno!" because it takes too much effort.

patrick jane
October 17th, 2015, 07:53 AM
So far, I see no reasonable answers to an age-old question. And the answers I do see are mostly absurd, elitist excuses. If this question were a stumbling block between myself and God, or Christ, none of you will have done anything to remove it. And most of you will have made it even more of an impediment.

Oh, you want REASONABLE answers, not absurd elitist excuses. I see

MrDeets
October 17th, 2015, 08:02 AM
Methinks you and others are happy to retreat into "I dunno!" because it takes too much effort.

Why is "I don't know" unacceptable? Wouldn't there be things in a supernatural realm(for lack of a better term) that are simply unknowable or unexplainable? The presumptuous attitude of some is more off putting than the problem itself, IMO.

George Affleck
October 17th, 2015, 08:06 AM
Ok, let's start up the grey matter motor.

It is not possible to recognize, label or condemn evil without some standard of good by which to measure. Indeed, it is not possible to declare good to be better than evil without a standard of some kind.

If I said to you; "That wall is 25 gojibits long", it would mean nothing in real terms unless I first defined the terms.

And yet everyone, religious or not, has some innate recognition of a difference between good and bad, and not just relative to themselves and how they feel at the time.

oatmeal
October 17th, 2015, 08:12 AM
If you believe this, you have less than half the gospel. This is nothing more than retribution; a commodity which God does not deal in exclusively. It is the bad news by which the good news is to be appreciated. He is also full of grace and mercy and has gone to great lengths to include all peoples in forgiveness of sin by faith in Christ.

Until someone believes God's words they will not receive from God.

Do you believe God forces himself on people, like a rapist or robber or a murderer?

Do you believe that God shoves Bibles down people's throats?

Or do you believe that God is the rewarder of them that diligently seek him?

Hebrews 11:6

But without believing it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

Those who choose to deny that He exists nor those who do not diligently seek Him are on their own without God's help.

God does not force people to accept His blessings

But without believing it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

Mark 9:23

Jesus said unto him, If thou canst believe, all things are possible to him that believeth.

For those who choose not to believe, nothing is possible

patrick jane
October 17th, 2015, 08:16 AM
WHAT IS GOOD IN GOD'S EYES?

What is good?

They say the defining characteristic of philosophy is that it gives hard answers to easy questions. If that's true, then this question certainly fits the bill. The question was raised by commenters here whether we can believe God is good, when the Bible says he ordered the destruction of nations, and when he says in the Bible that suffering is beneficial (at least for some).

The answer to this question requires challenging common assumptions about what is really good.

Thus this is a question not just of philosophy but of Biblical theology. What is really good in God's eyes? The short answer is, in part it is what you would expect, and in part it is completely different.

God's ultimate goal is a universe that reflects his glory. (This is not ego-centric in God's case.) He is eternally at the center of all, from before time began and through all of natural and human history, and everything is to reach its consummation in him.

So the definition of "good" starts with God and ends with God.

For humans, according to the Bible, the "good" is a matter of experiencing and reflecting the character of God. God's character is revealed Biblically as loving, holy, righteous, just, and wise. God's love is central ("God is love) and it's what most people seem to expect of him. His love is expressed in multiple ways.

God's holiness is less often recognized. This is where it's crucial to be aware of the Two Worlds mentioned previously: many of us living in one of these Worlds have no idea of what is said of God in the other. It would be hard to overstate the importance of God's holiness, or how unaware many are of it.

Habakkuk 1:13 says he is pure; he is too holy to look upon sin without dealing with it. He says to Israel, "You shall be holy, for I the Lord am holy." Holiness is not, as is often supposed, the same as righteousness; it has more to do with being set apart. God is separate from all that is sinful.

God is righteous, meaning he always does what is pure and without sin: "For the LORD is righteous, He loves righteousness; His countenance beholds the upright" (Psalm 11:7).

God is just; he judges fairly. He rewards the good and punishes evil. Some evils in the world continue unabated but only for a time; he will deal with it in his time, but remains patient so that more may escape judgment, through Christ.

God is wise beyond our understanding; not everything has to make sense. His ways and thoughts are higher than ours. I have often thought, in fact, that it is not surprising that some things about God remain puzzling even to those who spend a lifetime searching them out. If we could understand God, it would be more appropriate that he worship us than that we worship him.

This just scratches the surface of what is defined as God's goodness. It touches only on his moral goodness, and not his omnipotence, omniscience, and so on.

To summarize: God's goal is a universe that reflects his glory. His goodness is expressed in his love, holiness, righteousness, justice, and wisdom. What is good for humans is to come into a knowledge of God, to know his many-faceted goodness, and begin to share in his character: to become complete in Christ. This is with a view to eternity, so that temporary/temporal pain may be good if it produces eternal growth. This is nothing more than the common idea of delayed gratification, though magnified to a large scale.

God chose not to make human goodness automatic, not to make us automatons. He created us with the ability to make moral choices, and as a result, real moral evil has entered the world. God's goodness is always operative in every facet: love, holiness, justice, and so on. Sometimes from our perspective, its apparent operation is more on the level of preserving holiness and justice than on the level of providing personal life, health, or comfort. Sometimes we, who do not fully share in or understand the whole extent of God's goodness, do not see clearly how it is working, but this is because of our limitations and not because of flaws in God.

This is very revolutionary thinking for those who live in the World that is not familiar with it. I'm sure there are questions and problems I've raised here in this very brief outline that I'm hardly aware of, but I'll leave it as is for now and let the discussion go forward.


from Thinking Christian by Tom Gilson

chrysostom
October 17th, 2015, 08:22 AM
"IF god were real, why would he spend so much time in white America answering the minutia of prayer he receives while leaving so many millions to starve to death or watch their children starve?".

it is all about freedom
God gave us free will
and
many are trying to take it away from us
namely

islam
communism
calvinism

so
protecting freedom is job one
and
white america has that job

George Affleck
October 17th, 2015, 08:22 AM
Why is "I don't know" unacceptable?

It is unacceptable because it is unacceptable to you.

Your question is really; "Why can't you leave me alone in my imaginary conundrum?".

You have chosen to use a silly question as your get-out-of-jail card. I intend to show you that the card is useless. God has revealed enough of the answer to this, coupled with our intelligence, that we can be satisfied with the answer and gain wisdom unto salvation.

fishrovmen
October 17th, 2015, 08:31 AM
Maybe a help to the question goes back to Genesis 3?
Why didn't God want His creation to "know good and evil"?
Why did the serpent entice Eve to want to "know good and evil"?
Is it as basic an answer as being content with the surroundings we are placed in and just trust God that what is prohibited is what is best for us?

MrDeets
October 17th, 2015, 08:34 AM
It is unacceptable because it is unacceptable to you. It's not unacceptable to me. I think it's absolutely fine for one to say "I don't know".


Your question is really; "Why can't you leave me alone in my imaginary conundrum?". :rotfl: I'll try to keep that in mind. If I'd wanted to be left alone, wouldn't it make more sense to stay off of TOL, and NOT post a blog about my experience? :think:


You have chosen to use a silly question as your get-out-of-jail card.
Nice to know you see your religion as a jail... I really didn't find it THAT bad. :Plain:



I intend to show you that the card is useless. God has revealed enough of the answer to this, coupled with our intelligence, that we can be satisfied with the answer and gain wisdom unto salvation. I am quivering with anticipation... it must be obvious, since there's only one religion with one denomination floating around. I can't imagine how I've missed it.

PneumaPsucheSoma
October 17th, 2015, 08:38 AM
It would really help to know the over-arching lexical comparative definitions of tov (often translated "good") and ra'a (often translated "evil"), and to understand Hamartiology ("sin"-ology) and Ponerology ("evil"-ology). Especially considering Isaiah 45 indicating God creates evil (which means nothing like it seems to mean at first glance in English)

PureX
October 17th, 2015, 08:42 AM
I agree entirely.

And yet, for me, the existence of evil and suffering is actually a proof of God's existence, love, and grace; not a reason to doubt it.

Put your thinking cap on PureX and see if you can contribute positively. It is absolutely true that our modern age rewards the non-thinking, one line, lazy, Twitter/Facebook mentality to the point where it dulls our thinking abilities.

Methinks you and others are happy to retreat into "I dunno!" because it takes too much effort.The solution requires that we put on our "humility shoes" as well as it does our "thinking caps".

First, we need to recognize that what we are labeling "good" and "evil" are basically conditions being determined by our own needs and desires. What we call "good" is generally whatever is good for us, while what we call "evil" is generally whatever is not good for us. And so for us to blame "evil" on God we must be assuming that it's God's responsibility to see to it that existence serves our own needs and desires, exclusively. Which is both illogical, and quite selfish.

So that once we face this, and let go of this illogical and selfish assumption, we will find ourselves confronting a whole different paradigm. A paradigm in which God is the God of all that exists, and therefor the servant of all creation (if God is a 'servant' at all), and not just ourselves. And that being the case, God would enable the virus that kills us just as God enables us to kill other life forms so that we can survive. And the question then becomes why God would have created a universe in which life forms must destroy each other to maintain their own existence, and why this destruction causes us to suffer, so.

And the truth is, that we humans simply don't have the information needed to answer that question. Maybe life cannot exist any other way? Maybe God wants us to experience danger, and suffering, and finality, so that we can become fully cognizant of this gift of being that we have been given? Or maybe it's about generating maximum variety within the experience of living: everything must pass away so that the next thing can manifest? Or maybe it's about fairness, that all things get their chance at being, and at the loss of being?

I don't know, and neither does anyone else. And this brings up a basic fact of human existence: that we humans cannot have ALL THE ANSWERS. We just can't. And if we don't like that, too bad. Because we're going to have to live with it, regardless.

Or maybe God was never our servant as we presume. After all, there is no reason why God would be. In which case it's foolish for us to blame God for not being and doing what God is not, and does not, do. That would be like blaming the weather for being the weather, or for ignoring us in the process.

In any case, my answer to the question of "why does God allow evil?" is that it's a childish question. It's immature in that it's both selfish and unconsidered. And once we grow beyond this immaturity the question no longer really matters to us. Because we will have come to understand and accept our own humanity such as it is, and God's mystery such as it is. And then we can choose for ourselves how we will relate to God and existence, from there.

Humility is the key. And perhaps that is the answer to our question, after all … we suffer until we accept that we are not God's judge. Nor God's equals. And the sooner we accept this and quit blaming God, the sooner we can get on with the business of lessening our own suffering for ourselves, and lessening the suffering of others in that process.

chrysostom
October 17th, 2015, 08:46 AM
It would really help to know the over-arching lexical definitions of tov (often translated "good") and ra'a (often translated "evil"), and to understand Hamartiology ("sin"-ology) and Ponerology ("evil"-ology). Especially considering Isaiah 45 indicating God creates evil (which means nothing like it seems to mean at first glance in English)

"A noun is a part of speech that denotes a person, animal, place, thing, or idea"

evil is an adjective
but
many are trying to make it a noun

please don't add to the confusion

George Affleck
October 17th, 2015, 08:46 AM
WHAT IS GOOD IN GOD'S EYES?

What is good?

They say the defining characteristic of philosophy is that it gives hard answers to easy questions. If that's true, then this question certainly fits the bill. The question was raised by commenters here whether we can believe God is good, when the Bible says he ordered the destruction of nations, and when he says in the Bible that suffering is beneficial (at least for some).

The answer to this question requires challenging common assumptions about what is really good.

Thus this is a question not just of philosophy but of Biblical theology. What is really good in God's eyes? The short answer is, in part it is what you would expect, and in part it is completely different.

God's ultimate goal is a universe that reflects his glory. (This is not ego-centric in God's case.) He is eternally at the center of all, from before time began and through all of natural and human history, and everything is to reach its consummation in him.

So the definition of "good" starts with God and ends with God. (I hear yelps and yowls of "circular reasoning!" in the background as I write this, but I remind you that for now my purpose is still simply to define terms as the Bible states them, and we're answering from within the Biblical framework; later we will discuss whether that framework is consistent.)

For humans, according to the Bible, the "good" is a matter of experiencing and reflecting the character of God. God's character is revealed Biblically as loving, holy, righteous, just, and wise. God's love is central ("God is love) and it's what most people seem to expect of him. His love is expressed in multiple ways, so many that it will be the subject of another post in this series yet to come.

God's holiness is less often recognized. This is where it's crucial to be aware of the Two Worlds mentioned previously: many of us living in one of these Worlds have no idea of what is said of God in the other. It would be hard to overstate the importance of God's holiness, or how unaware many are of it.

Habakkuk 1:13 says he is pure; he is too holy to look upon sin without dealing with it. He says to Israel, "You shall be holy, for I the Lord am holy." Holiness is not, as is often supposed, the same as righteousness; it has more to do with being set apart. God is separate from all that is sinful. (In Christ he has an answer for the obvious problem that poses, which I do not have time to delve into here.)

God is righteous, meaning he always does what is pure and without sin: "For the LORD is righteous, He loves righteousness; His countenance beholds the upright" (Psalm 11:7).

God is just; he judges fairly. He rewards the good and punishes evil. Some evils in the world continue unabated but only for a time; he will deal with it in his time, but remains patient so that more may escape judgment, through Christ.

God is wise beyond our understanding; not everything has to make sense. His ways and thoughts are higher than ours. I have often thought, in fact, that it is not surprising that some things about God remain puzzling even to those who spend a lifetime searching them out. If we could understand God, it would be more appropriate that he worship us than that we worship him.

This just scratches the surface of what is defined as God's goodness. It touches only on his moral goodness, and not his omnipotence, omniscience, and so on. (Brief blogger break: this is content matter for libraries of books; we can't cover it that thoroughly here!)

To summarize: God's goal is a universe that reflects his glory. His goodness is expressed in his love, holiness, righteousness, justice, and wisdom. What is good for humans is to come into a knowledge of God, to know his many-faceted goodness, and begin to share in his character: to become complete in Christ. This is with a view to eternity, so that temporary/temporal pain may be good if it produces eternal growth. This is nothing more than the common idea of delayed gratification, though magnified to a large scale.

God chose not to make human goodness automatic, not to make us automatons. He created us with the ability to make moral choices, and as a result, real moral evil has entered the world. Thus we have the problems, the questions that started us on this whole series. When the answer to these questions comes, it will be in this form (this is a preview): God's goodness is always operative in every facet: love, holiness, justice, and so on. Sometimes from our perspective, its apparent operation is more on the level of preserving holiness and justice than on the level of providing personal life, health, or comfort. Sometimes we, who do not fully share in or understand the whole extent of God's goodness, do not see clearly how it is working, but this is because of our limitations and not because of flaws in God.

This is very revolutionary thinking for those who live in the World that is not familiar with it. I'm sure there are questions and problems I've raised here in this very brief outline that I'm hardly aware of, but I'll leave it as is for now and let the discussion go forward.


from Thinking Christian by Tom Gilson

Now we are getting somewhere.

The first thing that needs to be acknowledged is that God takes ultimate responsibility for His creation and for all souls (people) and will not do wrong by them. Suggesting that He will not is to not know the character of God.

Our flawed and limited perception of right and wrong, the struggle between good and evil, is because the whole of our entity is damaged by the fall. The only difference between those who are Christians and those who are not (in essence) is that Christians, by the gift of faith, now understand that because they are sinners, all thoughts and dogma must be governed strictly by the Revelation that God has provided.

This Revelation is, as it states, the written form of the Word of God of which Jesus is the human form.

Heb 11:6KJV

George Affleck
October 17th, 2015, 08:51 AM
It would really help to know the over-arching lexical comparative definitions of tov (often translated "good") and ra'a (often translated "evil"), and to understand Hamartiology ("sin"-ology) and Ponerology ("evil"-ology). Especially considering Isaiah 45 indicating God creates evil (which means nothing like it seems to mean at first glance in English)

PPS, welcome and please fill in the gaps we will undoubtedly miss. Your insight is always helpful.

PneumaPsucheSoma
October 17th, 2015, 08:52 AM
"A noun is a part of speech that denotes a person, animal, place, thing, or idea"

evil is an adjective
but
many are trying to make it a noun

please don't add to the confusion

On the contrary... I was attempting to see if anyone actually wanted this clarified by examining lexical scriptural truth rather than being ignorant of Satan's devices (noema - concepts of the mind).

I guess I'll just leave everyone to their concepts of the mind, which are Satan's devices.

Nobody seems to actually even know what "good" and "evil" are.

chrysostom
October 17th, 2015, 08:55 AM
Nobody seems to actually even know what "good" and "evil" are.

some of us do

they are adjectives

George Affleck
October 17th, 2015, 08:56 AM
"A noun is a part of speech that denotes a person, animal, place, thing, or idea"

evil is an adjective
but
many are trying to make it a noun

please don't add to the confusion

"Evil" is also a noun.

chrysostom
October 17th, 2015, 08:59 AM
"Evil" is also a noun.

now that's drivel

aikido7
October 17th, 2015, 09:03 AM
"IF god were real, why would he spend so much time in white America answering the minutia of prayer he receives while leaving so many millions to starve to death or watch their children starve?"

This is a quote from MrDeets blogpost (http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/blog.php?b=2456) which seems to me to be the essence of a long unanswered difficulty he struggled with. This is a reasonable question and a real issue for many and can be used effectively by Satan if left unanswered.

I encourage all serious, biblical/theological input.We live in a scientific, secular age now. We consult meteorologists instead of praying for weather. We consult medical professionals instead of faith healers.

The notion of God and human suffering has been a feature of human life since the beginning.

The Book of Job addresses this topic in a profoundly beautiful way. Job cries out, and God answers him out of the whirlwind with a lesson in Natural History. That book from the Hebrew Bible is a refreshing touchstone for all believers.

Believers everywhere are coming to realize that there is a Divine Consistency underlying the workings of Creation. Apples have always fallen from trees, no one has ever been born from a virgin, snakes certainly do not talk, and people do not walk on water.

Nor have they ever.

The fundamental mistake has been that Christians regard the sacred and metaphoric truths of the Bible literally. Unfortunately, this means they miss the underlying meaning of these truths and only have a one-dimensional faith.

PneumaPsucheSoma
October 17th, 2015, 09:22 AM
PPS, welcome and please fill in the gaps we will undoubtedly miss. Your insight is always helpful.

"Good" and "evil" (like many English words used to translate Hebrew or Greek word-to-word) are horrific stand-alone terms that have lended themselves to endless vague-though-adamant conceptual misunderstandings and misrepresentations. Tov and ra'a don't mean good and evil in any manner moderns apply.

Ra'a is privation or negation of tov. The most over-arching applicable meaning for tov is "functional"; so ra'a is the privation or negation of function as dys-/mal-/non-functionality.

God created all things tov. Completely functional according to His design. But latent within the actuality of functionality is the potentiality for dysfunction, malfunction, or non-function. Such is administered as subtraction by addition, much like adding a wrench to functioning gears subtracts functionality of a mechanism.

Like sin (hamartia in Greek), ra'a is not a "something". It's a degree of "somethinglessness". A void or lack. Just as hamartia is from "a-" (no/not) and "meros" (share/part) and is "the missing share or part" as a negation of "something" instead of a "something"; ra'a is a negation of tov.

Within every functional component of creation as actuality of existence, there is the latent potentiality of varying degree of subtraction or negation of that functionality. It's a qualitative issue, not a quantitative issue.

That which is functional (tov) is that which brings forth the character and quality of the Creator as activity within creation. That standard for character, quality, and activity is dikaiosune in Greek... righteousness, justice. God's standard is the only standard, and is the only true functionality.

"Evil" and "bad" have become incredibly diluted concepts that are individually subjective according to personal determination of one's own standard. One's own standard is self-righteousness, which is unrighteousness to whatever degree it differs from God's standard.

And God's standard is the whole of His eternal, uncreated, and immutable attributes (both incommunicable and communicable). HE is the standard for all character and conduct, and He revealed Himself in His Son.

Ra'a is the result of the Edenic scenario, and for which we have redemption, etc. The consequences aren't only individual, but environmental. And it's mercy that is for those sin consequences, just as grace is for sin itself (the articular noun, not just the doing and done of sinning and resulting sins).

God extends mercy and grace according to His sovereignty, etc., and is not obligated by His creation's entitlement or expectations. He laid down His very soul-life in Christ for all who hear and believe.

God is a covenant God. Part of the meaning for YHWH is "He who exists to covenant".

It's amazing how so many who are not in covenant with God expect Him to intervene in the dysfunctional groaning creation beyond the miracle of salvation and the Incarnation of the Logos, His Son.

Most thought and reasoning on this issue it ra'a, even among professing Believers.

OCTOBER23
October 17th, 2015, 09:23 AM
GEORGE AFFLECK OPENING STATEMENTS

1. "IF god were real, why would he spend so much time in white America answering the minutia of prayer he receives while leaving so many millions to starve to death or watch their children starve?"I encourage all serious, biblical/theological input.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

1 A . AMERICA was populated by British Puritans and Quakers who sought Religious Freedom and has MiLLIONS OF JEWS RESIDING HERE ALSO.

Therefore, God says, "MY PEOPLE WHO ARE CALLED BY MY NAME ""

2 Chronicles 7:14 If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.

AMERICA is suffering Tornadoes and Floods and Food Contamination etc .

THAT IS YOUR ANSWER - YOU BIBLICALLY AND HISTORICALLY IGNORANT

SO-CALLED CHRISTIAN...:mad::mad::madmad::madmad:

Matthew 22:29 Jesus answered and said unto them,
Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God.

PneumaPsucheSoma
October 17th, 2015, 09:24 AM
some of us do

they are adjectives

No, you do not. But I've never met anyone who actually does, so... you're not alone.

boristhespider
October 17th, 2015, 09:33 AM
Surely if Man is made in Gods image , every human trait good and bad has come from God .. so does that mean God is capable of Murder , Rape , Abuse .... I know a response is the Devil causes that corruption , but why if we are Gods image not as resistant as him to this.. or see my first point ?

aikido7
October 17th, 2015, 09:43 AM
Jesus believed in a different sort of God:

"The Father makes his sun to shine on both the good AND the evil and makes the rain fall on both the righteous and the unrighteous."

Matthew 5:45

*Two translations I have found say that God "makes the rain fall on both the just and the unjust."

The conservative Russian writer Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn had this to say:

"If only it were all so simple! If only there were evil people somewhere insidiously committing evil deeds, and it were necessary only to separate them from the rest of us and destroy them. But the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart?"

In my view I believe Jesus told us to "love our enemies" because on some level we need our opponent.

boristhespider
October 17th, 2015, 09:51 AM
Ok interesting point i just think if God created the world and Mankind he would of eradicated all evil at conception, or is our perception of what God intended incorrect... maybe he wants to have all the conflict and suffering and then see how we deal with it , either way i cant help thinking its a bit perverse of him and a bit hypocritical.

PneumaPsucheSoma
October 17th, 2015, 09:58 AM
Surely if Man is made in Gods image , every human trait good and bad has come from God .. so does that mean God is capable of Murder , Rape , Abuse .... I know a response is the Devil causes that corruption , but why if we are Gods image not as resistant as him to this.. or see my first point ?

Adam was made in the image of God. Mankind is now in the image of Seth after post-sin Adam. We can be resurrected and restored to the image of God through salvation which is in Christ.

Every trait in post-Adamic mankind did not come directly from God.

PureX
October 17th, 2015, 10:00 AM
Ok interesting point i just think if God created the world and Mankind he would of eradicated all evil at conception, or is our perception of what God intended incorrect... maybe he wants to have all the conflict and suffering and then see how we deal with it , either way i cant help thinking its a bit perverse of him and a bit hypocritical.Not necessarily. We are defined to a large degree by how we respond to our adversities in life. It seems logical to me that we are being given the gift of physical existence so that through our time in this realm, we can define ourselves, for ourselves. Wouldn't any caring creator want this for his creation?

aikido7
October 17th, 2015, 10:00 AM
Ok interesting point i just think if God created the world and Mankind he would of eradicated all evil at conception, or is our perception of what God intended incorrect... maybe he wants to have all the conflict and suffering and then see how we deal with it , either way i cant help thinking its a bit perverse of him and a bit hypocritical.God pronounced his creation "Good."

We rage at God and claim he deceives us or has abandoned us.

Never!

boristhespider
October 17th, 2015, 10:02 AM
Interesting ,

Can you please explain how you came to that conclusion or where it is clearly documented , as i would say Mankind is made in gods image is a very common misconception if you are correct.

aikido7
October 17th, 2015, 10:05 AM
Jesus never said it would be easy. His metaphor of the camel going through the eye of a needle speaks to that, as well as his command to "pick up your cross and follow me."

We have to live in the world we have, not sit around pining for a world that is out of our view.

God gave us free will. Jesus gave us the teaching of a Kingdom of God "ON EARTH as it is in Heaven."

boristhespider
October 17th, 2015, 10:05 AM
@PureX

I could not agree with you more , i just cant help the notion that when i create something i want it to be as perfect as it can be , if i notice faults i fix them it the creation needs my support i provide it , i would not sit back and let it destroy itself i would save it.

Thoughts ?

PureX
October 17th, 2015, 10:07 AM
Interesting ,

Can you please explain how you came to that conclusion or where it is clearly documented , as i would say Mankind is made in gods image is a very common misconception if you are correct.I think we are "made in God's image" in that we are free to determine our own spiritual natures. And in that we have the capacity for unconditional love. Which does seem to me to be a common religious message all around the world. (Not that humanity's religions are necessarily the gauge of any or all truth.)

OCTOBER23
October 17th, 2015, 10:09 AM
NOTICE THAT HE DOES NOT DARE TO REPLY TO MY LAST POST.........

If he was a Bible Studying Christian like God tells him to be , he would know better...

2 Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman
that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

John 5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life:
and they are they which testify of me.

aikido7
October 17th, 2015, 10:12 AM
Interesting ,

Can you please explain how you came to that conclusion or where it is clearly documented , as i would say Mankind is made in gods image is a very common misconception if you are correct.Over the years, I guess. I was raised up a little child who believed "Jesus loves me, this I know; for the Bible tells me so." and have never lost that feeling.

I have learned to try and see what the actual verses and the passages meant to their original writers. I have also learned to separate those sayings from Jesus that he really spoke and those which reflect the theology of the church after he died.

I have found that the real, first-century Jesus spoke in a unique way ("...with authority, not as the Scribes"). He taught the Kingdom of God in puzzling parables and spoke in short, pithy one-liners and unique proverbs.

He dislocated and overturned the conventional wisdom of his day and ours. He did not speak in propositional theology. He used metaphor and parable to indicate what he was thinking. In fact, metaphoric and mythic language are the only ways we humans can speak about the divine and the sacred. The rational, logical language of dogma and belief cannot abide by metaphor.

I hope this answers your question. If not, please have back at me!

PureX
October 17th, 2015, 10:15 AM
@PureX

I could not agree with you more , i just cant help the notion that when i create something i want it to be as perfect as it can be , if i notice faults i fix them it the creation needs my support i provide it , i would not sit back and let it destroy itself i would save it.

Thoughts ?I'm an old man. I have struggled with addiction both in myself and in others. And addiction is a good example of what you are referring to. In my experience, I will have to say that I believe it's better that I cannot control the minds and hearts of those addicts I would like to save from a painful and humiliating death. Because in the end, I have come to understand that they have to have the right to destroy themselves, to have the ability to transcend themselves. And if they do not have the these options available to them, even the most pleasant existence is basically pointless, because the being that exists without this autonomy is just a "thing".

I hope I'm explaining this clearly enough.

PneumaPsucheSoma
October 17th, 2015, 10:19 AM
Interesting ,

Can you please explain how you came to that conclusion or where it is clearly documented , as i would say Mankind is made in gods image is a very common misconception if you are correct.

From Genesis 5:1-5, and from the lexical range of meanings for tselem (image).

Adam was made in the image of God. Seth is in the image of Adam.

aikido7
October 17th, 2015, 10:20 AM
Interesting ,

Can you please explain how you came to that conclusion or where it is clearly documented , as i would say Mankind is made in gods image is a very common misconception if you are correct.I will quote Thomas Jefferson who was speaking of the difference between historical and faith claims in the New Testament:

The worthy parts of the Bible were easily distinguishable from the worthless—"as distinguishable," he later wrote in a letter to John Adams, "as diamonds in a dunghill."

Jefferson felt the "diamonds" of Jesus's speech had to be separated from "the dunghill" of the church's ideas of Jesus.

He also wrote that "The church's meddlings have caused good men to reject the whole in disgust."

He comes to us as One unknown, without a name, as of old, by the lakeside. He came to those men who knew Him not. He speaks to us the same words: "Follow thou me!" and sets us to the tasks which He has to fulfill for our time. He commands. And to those who obey Him, whether they be wise or simple, He will reveal Himself in the toils, the conflicts, the sufferings which they shall pass through in His fellowship, and, as an ineffable mystery, they shall learn in their own experience Who He is.

--Albert Schweitzer, 1910, The Quest of the Historical Jesus.

PneumaPsucheSoma
October 17th, 2015, 10:21 AM
NOTICE THAT HE DOES NOT DARE TO REPLY TO MY LAST POST.........

If he was a Bible Studying Christian like God tells him to be , he would know better...

2 Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman
that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

John 5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life:
and they are they which testify of me.

I've consistently found George Affleck to be insightful and a lover of truth and of God.

PureX
October 17th, 2015, 10:26 AM
NOTICE THAT HE DOES NOT DARE TO REPLY TO MY LAST POST.........


I've consistently found George Affleck to be insightful and a lover of truth and of God.I agree.

I see no reason to be accusing anyone of being disingenuous, here. At least not so far. It's an interesting discussion with lots of perspectives. Let's keep up the productive conversation! :)

boristhespider
October 17th, 2015, 11:16 AM
@akidio7

I would say you have provided an extremely insightful response to my question and have given me some food for thought , but again i would say this is an opinion rather than documented evidence that gives unequivocal proof , but thank you for your contribution.

1Mind1Spirit
October 17th, 2015, 12:04 PM
It would really help to know the over-arching lexical comparative definitions of tov (often translated "good") and ra'a (often translated "evil"), and to understand Hamartiology ("sin"-ology) and Ponerology ("evil"-ology). Especially considering Isaiah 45 indicating God creates evil (which means nothing like it seems to mean at first glance in English)

Guess the English shoulda left out create?

Functional.......

Adam was a creature subject to vanity.

He was created that way.

Adam followed Eve into the transgression because he did not want to give her up.


So yeah, Adam functioned just as he was created to function.



Romans 8:20 KJV


20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,

1Mind1Spirit
October 17th, 2015, 01:10 PM
He comes to us as One unknown, without a name, as of old, by the lakeside. He came to those men who knew Him not. He speaks to us the same words: "Follow thou me!" and sets us to the tasks which He has to fulfill for our time. He commands. And to those who obey Him, whether they be wise or simple, He will reveal Himself in the toils, the conflicts, the sufferings which they shall pass through in His fellowship, and, as an ineffable mystery, they shall learn in their own experience Who He is.

--Albert Schweitzer, 1910, The Quest of the Historical Jesus.

This dude had some wisdom, gained through experiential knowledge.

aikido7
October 17th, 2015, 01:15 PM
This dude had some wisdom, gained through experiential knowledge.

Although I sometimes read secular, Islamic or Jewish scholars' take on Jesus, my heart always resonates with scholars that are believers.

They might not be believers in the traditional, dogmatic sense, but their language elevates me and draws me closer to that figure of history I am continually following.

I think this is why I have been banned a lot lately. Many Christians cannot take the metaphoric truth any way but literally. And the atheists accept the literalness, but they claim it is nonsense while their brothers and sisters in Christ interpret everything though a lens that says "factually correct."

aikido7
October 17th, 2015, 01:21 PM
@akidio7

I would say you have provided an extremely insightful response to my question and have given me some food for thought , but again i would say this is an opinion rather than documented evidence that gives unequivocal proof , but thank you for your contribution.Exactly. Please let traditional Christians to beware! They should not take my claims as "absolute truth." They should check out what I say by using the Bible as their guide.

I was once challenged by a speaker in the middle of my weekly homily who said "How do you know you are right about all of this?"

I had to answer honestly: "I do NOT 'know' that "I am right." I can only take the historical data, facts and evidence and draw my conjectures from there. In doing this, I am no more different that any other believer is. Or different from Mark, Luke. John, Matthew and Paul.

We find and reveal a Jesus that has to make sense to US.

When it comes to clearing away the church's later theology from the actual words attributed to Jesus takes a lot of tools. It's not easy to describe the surrounding cultural, religious and political environment of the Son of Man. ALL translations of any kind betray us. J.P. Hartley once noted "The past is a foreign country. They do things differently there."

Looking at the ancient world through our modern, 21st century lenses is a profound mistake.

George Affleck
October 17th, 2015, 06:21 PM
"Good" and "evil" (like many English words used to translate Hebrew or Greek word-to-word) are horrific stand-alone terms that have lended themselves to endless vague-though-adamant conceptual misunderstandings and misrepresentations. Tov and ra'a don't mean good and evil in any manner moderns apply.

Ra'a is privation or negation of tov. The most over-arching applicable meaning for tov is "functional"; so ra'a is the privation or negation of function as dys-/mal-/non-functionality.

God created all things tov. Completely functional according to His design. But latent within the actuality of functionality is the potentiality for dysfunction, malfunction, or non-function. Such is administered as subtraction by addition, much like adding a wrench to functioning gears subtracts functionality of a mechanism.

Like sin (hamartia in Greek), ra'a is not a "something". It's a degree of "somethinglessness". A void or lack. Just as hamartia is from "a-" (no/not) and "meros" (share/part) and is "the missing share or part" as a negation of "something" instead of a "something"; ra'a is a negation of tov.

Within every functional component of creation as actuality of existence, there is the latent potentiality of varying degree of subtraction or negation of that functionality. It's a qualitative issue, not a quantitative issue.

That which is functional (tov) is that which brings forth the character and quality of the Creator as activity within creation. That standard for character, quality, and activity is dikaiosune in Greek... righteousness, justice. God's standard is the only standard, and is the only true functionality.

"Evil" and "bad" have become incredibly diluted concepts that are individually subjective according to personal determination of one's own standard. One's own standard is self-righteousness, which is unrighteousness to whatever degree it differs from God's standard.

And God's standard is the whole of His eternal, uncreated, and immutable attributes (both incommunicable and communicable). HE is the standard for all character and conduct, and He revealed Himself in His Son.

Ra'a is the result of the Edenic scenario, and for which we have redemption, etc. The consequences aren't only individual, but environmental. And it's mercy that is for those sin consequences, just as grace is for sin itself (the articular noun, not just the doing and done of sinning and resulting sins).

God extends mercy and grace according to His sovereignty, etc., and is not obligated by His creation's entitlement or expectations. He laid down His very soul-life in Christ for all who hear and believe.

God is a covenant God. Part of the meaning for YHWH is "He who exists to covenant".

It's amazing how so many who are not in covenant with God expect Him to intervene in the dysfunctional groaning creation beyond the miracle of salvation and the Incarnation of the Logos, His Son.

Most thought and reasoning on this issue it ra'a, even among professing Believers.

PPS you always lift us up to higher ground. Thank you my friend for bringing clarity and excellence.

The biggest mistake that can be made when considering a subject as difficult as this is to assume that "me" is central. Our generation continues to plumb the depths of being concerned chiefly with themselves. This spills over, even into the Christian community, and supplants a right perspective which God's Word encourages us to adopt. We need a God's eye view in order to come to grips with these questions - and that is exactly why God left us His Word!

It is not about me or us or them. It is about God and His glory, and about His Son and how a perfect plan that was decided upon before the foundation of the world is being carried out to fulfilment. Even though we are just along for the ride, the crumbs that spill from God's table are more than enough to sustain us until we see His face.

I love what you said PPS about "Ra'a is privation or negation of tov". Thanks for illuminating that for us. There is no such thing as darkness; just absence of light, and, as you point out, we are in no position to tell God how to apportion any of His blessings.

I have yet to hear anyone address an important element for this discussion mentioned in post 37


It is not possible to recognize, label or condemn evil without some standard of good by which to measure. Indeed, it is not possible to declare good to be better than evil without a standard of some kind.

This is why (with a few intervening steps of logic) the existence of evil and/or suffering is actually a proof of God and why our protagonist is in error in using it as a defence of his unbelief.

George Affleck
October 17th, 2015, 07:00 PM
It's not unacceptable to me. I think it's absolutely fine for one to say "I don't know".


Yes. You think it is absolutely fine that God is unacceptable according to your standards because it reconciles your unresolved problem.

You have defined God according to your own expectations of Him (mistake 1) and arbitrarily decided (mistake2) that if He does not live up to your expectations (unacceptable part) that He must not exist or be a bad god (mistake 3). Problem solved. :third:

George Affleck
October 17th, 2015, 07:24 PM
This dude had some wisdom, gained through experiential knowledge.

I was digging out my potatoes last week and whenever I do, the portion of scripture comes to me; "Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field;
In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground..."

And yet I still call it a garden.

1Mind1Spirit
October 17th, 2015, 08:02 PM
I was digging out my potatoes last week and whenever I do, the portion of scripture comes to me; "Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field;
In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground..."

And yet I still call it a garden.

Yep and every time I get stung by one, I think.......

Those dang things belong in the fire.

Years of burning wood to stay warm, taught me, trees with thorns make for the hottest and longest lasting fires.

George Affleck
October 18th, 2015, 09:25 AM
I've consistently found George Affleck to be insightful and a lover of truth and of God.

Unfortunately October23 has no idea what this thread is about because he did not read the first post with comprehension. He insists on riding his hobby-horse in an attempt to hijack the conversation.

If he realizes his mistake and apologizes, he will be forgiven.

George Affleck
October 18th, 2015, 10:00 AM
MrDeets also needs to answer this question:

How much evil (suffering) would need to be absent from the world for him to not make the comment he made? Indeed, how would the world need to be organized for atheists/unbelievers to delete this arguement from their stockpile of objections?

In the end all succumb to death, often with much suffering. Would God be real to them if death was eliminated? Or just the suffering part?

Because we are expected to give a specific answer to the problem of evil, I will accept no answer to this question that is not also specific.

PureX
October 18th, 2015, 10:04 AM
I'm reposting my response because it seems to have gotten lost in the heat of the moment. And I'm wondering is there are any comments.


The solution requires that we put on our "humility shoes" as well as it does our "thinking caps".

First, we need to recognize that what we are labeling "good" and "evil" are basically conditions being determined by our own needs and desires. What we call "good" is generally whatever is good for us, while what we call "evil" is generally whatever is not good for us. And so for us to blame "evil" on God we must be assuming that it's God's responsibility to see to it that existence serves our own needs and desires, exclusively. Which is both illogical, and quite selfish.

So that once we face this, and let go of this illogical and selfish assumption, we will find ourselves confronting a whole different paradigm. A paradigm in which God is the God of all that exists, and therefor the servant of all creation (if God is a 'servant' at all), and not just ourselves. And that being the case, God would enable the virus that kills us just as God enables us to kill other life forms so that we can survive. And the question then becomes why God would have created a universe in which life forms must destroy each other to maintain their own existence, and why this destruction causes us to suffer, so.

And the truth is, that we humans simply don't have the information needed to answer that question. Maybe life cannot exist any other way? Maybe God wants us to experience danger, and suffering, and finality, so that we can become fully cognizant of this gift of being that we have been given? Or maybe it's about generating maximum variety within the experience of living: everything must pass away so that the next thing can manifest? Or maybe it's about fairness, that all things get their chance at being, and at the loss of being?

I don't know, and neither does anyone else. And this brings up a basic fact of human existence: that we humans cannot have ALL THE ANSWERS. We just can't. And if we don't like that, too bad. Because we're going to have to live with it, regardless.

Or maybe God was never our servant as we presume. After all, there is no reason why God would be. In which case it's foolish for us to blame God for not being and doing what God is not, and does not, do. That would be like blaming the weather for being the weather, or for ignoring us in the process.

In any case, my answer to the question of "why does God allow evil?" is that it's a childish question. It's immature in that it's both selfish and unconsidered. And once we grow beyond this immaturity the question no longer really matters to us. Because we will have come to understand and accept our own humanity such as it is, and God's mystery such as it is. And then we can choose for ourselves how we will relate to God and existence, from there.

Humility is the key. And perhaps that is the answer to our question, after all Ö we suffer until we accept that we are not God's judge. Nor God's equals. And the sooner we accept this and quit blaming God, the sooner we can get on with the business of lessening our own suffering for ourselves, and lessening the suffering of others in that process.

George Affleck
October 18th, 2015, 10:37 AM
I think we are "made in God's image" in that we are free to determine our own spiritual natures. And in that we have the capacity for unconditional love. Which does seem to me to be a common religious message all around the world. (Not that humanity's religions are necessarily the gauge of any or all truth.)

Boris,

The Biblical answer to this lies in the idea of Paradise Lost. God created the universe perfect and Adam in His image. This first man, Adam, disobeyed God and thereby sold himself and his kin into slavery to Satan. With the entrance of sin death entered and in conjunction with God's curse upon the land (environment - as PPS delineates), Satan runs the show, to the extent God allows, until Christ's death.

At this point Satan becomes legally guilty of murder for causing the death of one who is not owned by him (Jesus was not genealogically related to Adam and therefore not subject to Satan). Satan is put in prison on death row pending execution and faith in God's Son translates those who believe in Him into His Kingdom and under His protection.

To say that God did not create everything perfect to begin with is not the Biblical explanation.


Later Note: I meant to give this answer to Boris but it is just as good here. I agree with Purex about this being primarily a spiritual "image".

Totton Linnet
October 18th, 2015, 10:39 AM
Do you mean to say that Europe and whites have better lives because they are Christian ? What about blacks and others ?

Aw I wish Christians would wise up, prosperity is inbuilt in the gospel, it IS the good news.

Jesus came into Galilee preaching "Repent and believe the good news for the Kingdom of Heaven is at hand"

Every single Jew knew what He was saying, it is the great Jewish hope, the age of superabundant prosperity for everyone, not just the Jews [although they were expected to rule in this age] but nations would beat their sword into PLOUGHSHARES and their spears into PRUNING HOOKS, in other words harvesting implements.

Understand that in that age the curse that God pronounced upon the ground because of sin would be lifted....the earth would once more yield of itself.

We know that this age has been interrupted but for the church THOSE PROMISES ARE OURS in Christ.

Seek ye FIRST the kingdom of God and His righteousness and all these things shall be added unto you...all what things? all the things that the nations seek after.

The idea is simple God super blesses the church and through the church the world. It is part and parcel of the gospel.

But around the first century ad the church went "spiritual" became a heavenly people only. This new "spiritual" church is what grew into the Catholic church....there are reasons for this, why this happened.

Of course the pardon of sins was the most important part of the gospel, the new birth...salvation. It is "seek ye FIRST the kingdom of God and His righteousness" but strangely enough even this aspect of the gospel got clouded over too and got buried under sacramentalism and ritualism and clericalism so the church even lost it's spiritual aspect.

We had a reformation

But the reformation my friends as wonderful as it was only recovered part of the truth. All these truths are in the gospel still, they are still there in Paul's letters. But just as "righteousness by faith" was there in Pauls doctrine for more than a thousand years and people's eyes didn't see it to understand it so a great many truths are there in the bible today and our eyes skate over them.

OCTOBER23
October 18th, 2015, 10:41 AM
Notice that Affleck has still not responded to my post or my Bible verses .

Let us see how he responds to the Bible ....how will he interpret it ?

All he can do is get PERSONAL and Question my Comprehension.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Unfortunately October23 has no idea what this thread is about because he did not read the first post with comprehension. He insists on riding his hobby-horse in an attempt to hijack the conversation.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
HERE IS HIS OP WHICH I INCLUDED IN MY LAST POST.

WHAT IS NOT TO UNDERSTAND ????????????

"IF god were real, why would he spend so much time in white America answering the minutia of prayer he receives while leaving so many millions to starve to death or watch their children starve?"

This is a quote from MrDeets blogpost which seems to me to be the essence of a long unanswered difficulty he struggled with. This is a reasonable question and a real issue for many and can be used effectively by Satan if left unanswered.

I encourage all serious, biblical/theological input.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

PureX
October 18th, 2015, 10:53 AM
Boris,

The Biblical answer to this lies in the idea of Paradise Lost. God created the universe perfect and Adam in His image. This first man, Adam, disobeyed God and thereby sold himself and his kin into slavery to Satan. With the entrance of sin death entered and in conjunction with God's curse upon the land (environment - as PPS delineates), Satan runs the show, to the extent God allows, until Christ's death.

At this point Satan becomes legally guilty of murder for causing the death of one who is not owned by him (Jesus was not genealogically related to Adam and therefore not subject to Satan). Satan is put in prison on death row pending execution and faith in God's Son translates those who believe in Him into His Kingdom and under His protection.

To say that God did not create everything perfect to begin with is not the Biblical explanation.I don't agree with your interpretation of the story of original sin, so I don't agree with your presumptions about God.

Here is my understanding of the Genesis story in the Bible:

Man's original sin was hubris. It was our presuming ourselves to be God's equals. And thus presuming that we possess sufficient knowledge of good and evil to stand in judgment of God, and in judgment of God's Creation, as if we were their Creator, ourselves. And then, through this false assumption, we both proclaim what is good and evil, and demand that God be held responsible for it!

But in truth, we do not possess the knowledge of good and evil because it was forbidden to us, and what God forbids, stays forbidden. So our judgments are based on our own self-centered presumption that Creation was intended to serve us, as if were are gods, ourselves, and that God owes us an answer for our not being served by Creation as we presume we ought to be.

Thus, the whole question of God and evil is just another manifestation of mankind's original sin; the sin of hubris. And so the solution to that question in not that God provides us an answer, but that we humble ourselves, and admit that the question, itself, is both immature, and selfish.

Totton Linnet
October 18th, 2015, 10:58 AM
Know that poverty is a curse...know that "Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law"

OCTOBER23
October 18th, 2015, 11:08 AM
HERE IS A FURTHER EXTRAPOLATION FROM AFFLECK RE: THE OP.

The Only Sold answer being the Kingdom of God in this case.

Because you have to REMOVE the Main cause of Suffering which is

the One who HATES Mankind - Satan who presently has Eternal Life .

You can also add man's Selfishness to that list of conundrums

because the Non Believing Sodom and Gomorrah were probably highly organized cities

as is New York, San Francisco and Toronto where I live and the Atheists and others

are still not satisfied with the Hate Laws that we have here and therefore,

the answer is that NO amount of suffering can be Eliminated because they

are never Satisfied .
-------------------------------------------------------------------------

MrDeets also needs to answer this question:

How much evil (suffering) would need to be absent from the world for him to not make the comment he made? Indeed, how would the world need to be organized for atheists/unbelievers to delete this arguement from their stockpile of objections?

In the end all succumb to death, often with much suffering. Would God be real to them if death was eliminated? Or just the suffering part?

Because we are expected to give a specific answer to the problem of evil, I will accept no answer to this question that is not also specific.

Ask Mr. Religion
October 18th, 2015, 11:29 AM
That God exists is undeniable.

That God is perfect is undeniable.

God created all that exists in the universe ex nihilo.

God sustains all that exists continually with His power.

Morally evil acts exist.

God can prevent morally evil acts.

That God does not prevent all morally evil acts means our perfect God necessarily has a perfectly moral acceptable reason for not preventing all morally evil acts.

Accordingly, God wills righteously what men do wickedly.

That we created creatures do not understand why God actively wills to permit morally evil acts gives no warrant to His created moral creatures that would require God to enter the Dock and give an account of Himself beyond what God has revealed (Deut. 29:29).

AMR

glorydaz
October 18th, 2015, 12:07 PM
That God exists is undeniable.

That God is perfect is undeniable.

God created all that exists in the universe ex nihilo.

God sustains all that exists continually with His power.

Morally evil acts exist.

God can prevent morally evil acts.

That God does not prevent all morally evil acts means our perfect God necessarily has a perfectly moral acceptable reason for not preventing all morally evil acts.

Accordingly, God wills righteously what men do wickedly.

That we created creatures do not understand why God actively wills to permit morally evil acts gives no warrant to His created moral creatures that would require God to enter the Dock and give an account of Himself beyond what God has revealed (Deut. 29:29).

AMR

Amen....much better than the idea that He creates evil.

1Mind1Spirit
October 18th, 2015, 01:08 PM
Amen....much better than the idea that He creates evil.


Originally Posted by Ask Mr. Religion View Post
That God exists is undeniable.

That God is perfect is undeniable.

God created all that exists in the universe ex nihilo.

God sustains all that exists continually with His power.

Morally evil acts exist.

God can prevent morally evil acts.

That God does not prevent all morally evil acts means our perfect God necessarily has a perfectly moral acceptable reason for not preventing all morally evil acts.

Accordingly, God wills righteously what men do wickedly.

That we created creatures do not understand why God actively wills to permit morally evil acts gives no warrant to His created moral creatures that would require God to enter the Dock and give an account of Himself beyond what God has revealed (Deut. 29:29).

AMR

Grape Kool-Aid.

You kids crack me up.

Y'all remind me of little kids tryin' to play grown up scenarios.

glorydaz
October 18th, 2015, 04:52 PM
Grape Kool-Aid.

You kids crack me up.

Y'all remind me of little kids tryin' to play grown up scenarios.

You're the one sitting there staring at your computer and laughing. That's what my five year old grandson does. ;)


If you think you're man enough....jump in and give us your two cents worth. I've already seen some of your attempts, but they sound the same as this last comment of yours. :juggle:

Zeke
October 18th, 2015, 06:32 PM
"IF god were real, why would he spend so much time in white America answering the minutia of prayer he receives while leaving so many millions to starve to death or watch their children starve?"

This is a quote from MrDeets blogpost (http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/blog.php?b=2456) which seems to me to be the essence of a long unanswered difficulty he struggled with. This is a reasonable question and a real issue for many and can be used effectively by Satan if left unanswered.

I encourage all serious, biblical/theological input.

You want dead letter 2Cor 3:6 input? About the none observable kingdom of God Luke 17:20-21 that takes place within the conscience where the outward performance of the letter of the law didn't deal with the inward thoughts, the spiritual law deals with them which puts a kink in the theology and dogmas of men, which is the evil that deceives the mind.

George Affleck
October 18th, 2015, 06:45 PM
That God exists is undeniable.

That God is perfect is undeniable.

God created all that exists in the universe ex nihilo.

God sustains all that exists continually with His power.

Morally evil acts exist.

God can prevent morally evil acts.

That God does not prevent all morally evil acts means our perfect God necessarily has a perfectly moral acceptable reason for not preventing all morally evil acts.

Accordingly, God wills righteously what men do wickedly.

That we created creatures do not understand why God actively wills to permit morally evil acts gives no warrant to His created moral creatures that would require God to enter the Dock and give an account of Himself beyond what God has revealed (Deut. 29:29).

AMR

Excellent post AMR.

aikido7
October 18th, 2015, 08:56 PM
Matthew 5:45

The God of Jesus plays no favorites:

"The Father makes his sun to shine on both the good AND the evil and sends his rain to fall on the just and the unjust alike."

1Mind1Spirit
October 18th, 2015, 09:12 PM
You're the one sitting there staring at your computer and laughing. That's what my five year old grandson does. ;)


If you think you're man enough....jump in and give us your two cents worth. I've already seen some of your attempts, but they sound the same as this last comment of yours. :juggle:

How yuh figger?


Originally posted by 1Mind1Spirit

Guess the English shoulda left out create?

Functional.......

Adam was a creature subject to vanity.

He was created that way.

Adam followed Eve into the transgression because he did not want to give her up.


So yeah, Adam functioned just as he was created to function.



Romans 8:20 KJV


20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope

quip
October 18th, 2015, 10:41 PM
"IF god were real, why would he spend so much time in white America answering the minutia of prayer he receives while leaving so many millions to starve to death or watch their children starve?"


To the victors go the spoils..complete with their own revised histories and religions. If not the god you speak of, another in its stead. :idunno:

Mankind is the (greedy, capricious) captain of the ship....god is simply its constructed vessel.

OCTOBER23
October 19th, 2015, 02:52 AM
Notice that Affleck has still not responded to my post or my Bible verses .

1 Peter 3:15 But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts:

and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason

of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear:

Here are some prophetic words for Affleck..............

https://youtu.be/F3VyuXhx3Ng

George Affleck
October 19th, 2015, 06:29 AM
I don't agree with your interpretation of the story of original sin, so I don't agree with your presumptions about God.

Here is my understanding of the Genesis story in the Bible:

Man's original sin was hubris. It was our presuming ourselves to be God's equals. And thus presuming that we possess sufficient knowledge of good and evil to stand in judgment of God, and in judgment of God's Creation, as if we were their Creator, ourselves. And then, through this false assumption, we both proclaim what is good and evil, and demand that God be held responsible for it!

But in truth, we do not possess the knowledge of good and evil because it was forbidden to us, and what God forbids, stays forbidden. So our judgments are based on our own self-centered presumption that Creation was intended to serve us, as if were are gods, ourselves, and that God owes us an answer for our not being served by Creation as we presume we ought to be.

Thus, the whole question of God and evil is just another manifestation of mankind's original sin; the sin of hubris. And so the solution to that question in not that God provides us an answer, but that we humble ourselves, and admit that the question, itself, is both immature, and selfish.

I was finally able to read and digest this and your other post. It would seem that we are not on exactly the same page with regard to the basics; though not far off. Revelation, for our purposes, exists for one reason - our enlightenment. The minute we step outside of it and into speculation we commit the same sin as Adam, which I do not believe was, technically, hubris.

Hubris was the act of Satan who influenced the original sin of Adam which was disobedience to a specific directive from God in the garden. Rom 5:19KJV Eph 2:2KJV We are called the children of disobedience because we are related to Adam and share in original sin.

Of course all sin is related and can be said to be wilfully stepping outside of the boundaries set by God. Hubris, however, is quite advanced in comparison to simple disobedience.

The other objection I have is that a non-answer is simply fatalism. Que sera sera. I am convinced this is what drives people away from the church thinking that they are justified in doing so. I believe there are good answers (not complete ones) for this subject and I hope to involve others in that investigation..

George Affleck
October 19th, 2015, 06:39 AM
To the victors go the spoils..complete with their own revised histories and religions. If not the god you speak of, another in its stead. :idunno:

Mankind is the (greedy, capricious) captain of the ship....god is simply its constructed vessel.

Hi Quip!

Still quipping I see.

PureX
October 19th, 2015, 07:50 AM
I was finally able to read and digest this and your other post. It would seem that we are not on exactly the same page with regard to the basics; though not far off. Revelation, for our purposes, exists for one reason - our enlightenment. The minute we step outside of it and into speculation we commit the same sin as Adam, which I do not believe was, technically, hubris.

Hubris was the act of Satan who influenced the original sin of Adam which was disobedience to a specific directive from God in the garden. Rom 5:19KJV Eph 2:2KJV We are called the children of disobedience because we are related to Adam and share in original sin.

Of course all sin is related and can be said to be wilfully stepping outside of the boundaries set by God. Hubris, however, is quite advanced in comparison to simple disobedience.

The other objection I have is that a non-answer is simply fatalism. Que sera sera. I am convinced this is what drives people away from the church thinking that they are justified in doing so. I believe there are good answers (not complete ones) for this subject and I hope to involve others in that investigation.."Disobedience" is an immature (childish) understanding of sin. And maintaining it is a means of deliberate spiritual retardation, done for the purpose of control by religious institutions bent on establishing and holding power over people instead of enlightening them and allowing them to follow God instead of "religious authority".

The ideal that the snake offered mankind in the Genesis story was equality with God: the knowledge of good and evil, and the illusion of eternal life. Both conditions that were not available to us by God's design. And so mankind "ingested" the fruit of this snake's deceit, and presumed unto itself a knowledge of good and evil, and an assumption of eternal life. These are the essence of mankind's original sin. And the story includes these specific temptations and presumptions for a reason: so that we will know how we have come to be living in antipathy with Creation and our Creator, as we are. It's not just some childish story about "disobedience". It's a story about grown ups, and for grown ups, to show how we separate ourselves both from "Eden", and from God, even to this day. And it's not because we "disobey" some religious authority's dictates. It's because we are still presuming unto ourselves a knowledge of good and evil that we do not rightly possess. And because we are still presuming unto ourselves an eternal existence that we do not know we will have. And most of all it's because we are still thinking and acting as if we are gods, ourselves. (Sound familiar?)

And because we are still committing this original sin of hubris, we are still laboring our lives away trying to "correct" God's creation to make it serve us, exclusively, as we falsely presume it was meant to do, because we falsely presume ourselves to be the equals of God on Earth.

(Instead of the human reflections of God, that we were intended to be.)

chrysostom
October 19th, 2015, 08:40 AM
some of us do

they are adjectives


No, you do not. But I've never met anyone who actually does, so... you're not alone.

good and evil are adjectives
so
they do not exist by themselves

chrysostom
October 19th, 2015, 08:42 AM
Morally evil acts exist.

they do not
but
those who do them do

Jamie Gigliotti
October 19th, 2015, 09:12 AM
"IF god were real, why would he spend so much time in white America answering the minutia of prayer he receives while leaving so many millions to starve to death or watch their children starve?"

This is a quote from MrDeets blogpost (http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/blog.php?b=2456) which seems to me to be the essence of a long unanswered difficulty he struggled with. This is a reasonable question and a real issue for many and can be used effectively by Satan if left unanswered.

I encourage all serious, biblical/theological input.

Love and free will are the only logical answers.

Whether you believe in the Devil or not. We all know the abscence of love in word and deed. There undoubtedly is the abscence of love in this world. The abscence of God, as "God is love".

The answer always has to go to from that question to, from an apologetic standpoint, a the question: Can there be relational love without free will?

The logical answer to that is there is no true love without free will.

What then is God doing to stop the abscence of love? Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ! He brought the love we need and He gives it to us. The question then stands: Will we accept His amazing gift of love, will we love Him and live in Him, in His Holy Spirit and His love and bring the love to those who so desperately need it?

chrysostom
October 19th, 2015, 09:19 AM
Love and free will are the only logical answers.

Whether you believe in the Devil or not. We all know the abscence of love in word and deed. There undoubtedly is the abscence of love in this world. The abscence of God, as "God is love".

The answer always has to go to from an apologetic standpoint to the question: Can there be relational love without free will?

The logical answer to that is there is no true love without free will.

What then is God doing to stop the abscence of love? Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ! He brought the love we need and He gives it to us. The question then stands: Will we accept His amazing gift of love, will we love Him and live in Him, in His Holy Spirit and His love and bring the love to those who so desperately need it?

great post brother

Jamie Gigliotti
October 19th, 2015, 10:08 AM
great post brother

Ha, even with gramatical errors, in haste. Thx brother. Outside of His love nothing makes sense, inside of it everything does.

fzappa13
October 19th, 2015, 02:57 PM
It's not too hard to figure out the difference between good and evil when they happen TO you. I suspect that's what the Big Guy meant about that "do unto others", business. So, after having dispensed with that we can move along to the supposed arbitrary and capricious nature of what God allows mankind to experience.

I know my "name it and claim it/faith only" friends would disagree but I would suggest that a faith untried is no faith and that is at least a part of the purpose of the vagaries that both the faithful and others experience. Our reaction to these situations justifies God's judgement of them, ironically, by our own terms ... faith or no. The book of Job is not a bad starting point when in search of a good illustration of this point.

Anyone remember who the sun shines and the rain falls upon?

Anyone remember whom the Bible defines as a Bastard?

Eric h
October 19th, 2015, 03:53 PM
Love and free will are the only logical answers.



God loves each and everyone of us as he loves himself, we are created as children in his own image. He gave us the greatest commandments to love our neighbour as we love ourselves. There are around two thousand passages in the Bible, that tell us how we should treat the poor and oppressed.

God has given us more than enough recourses to go round, sadly twenty percent of the world population, owns around eighty percent of its assets.

God has sent you, me and everyone else to be a part of the solution, we have the instructions, it should not be rocket science to help those in need.

Billions of dollars are spent on the diet industry, we throw mountains of food away, the war budget would feed the starving. We trade unfairly with poor countries, paying their workers a dollar or two a day to produce our goods.

I don't think God can do any more for us, we have to take some responsibility.

Jamie Gigliotti
October 19th, 2015, 07:26 PM
God loves each and everyone of us as he loves himself, we are created as children in his own image. He gave us the greatest commandments to love our neighbour as we love ourselves. There are around two thousand passages in the Bible, that tell us how we should treat the poor and oppressed.

God has given us more than enough recourses to go round, sadly twenty percent of the world population, owns around eighty percent of its assets.

God has sent you, me and everyone else to be a part of the solution, we have the instructions, it should not be rocket science to help those in need.

Billions of dollars are spent on the diet industry, we throw mountains of food away, the war budget would feed the starving. We trade unfairly with poor countries, paying their workers a dollar or two a day to produce our goods.

I don't think God can do any more for us, we have to take some responsibility.

Corruption, in third world countries, i.e. the abscence of God, contributes to food shortages.

We are called to give as if we are giving to Jesus... We are His solution... And there are those that are called and go and murdered for being Christian in hostile environments.

There is plenty to do, no doubt.

fzappa13
October 19th, 2015, 07:27 PM
God loves each and everyone of us

Romans 9:13

“As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.”

Occasionally the Bible offers us things not quickly or easily heard ... therein lay learning to those open to it.

George Affleck
October 19th, 2015, 09:54 PM
"Disobedience" is an immature (childish) understanding of sin.

I appreciate your opinion.
I can only appeal to God's Word in defense.

Rom 5:19KJV
Rom 5:19NIV
Rom 5:19NKJV
Rom 5:19ESV
Rom 5:19NASB

George Affleck
October 19th, 2015, 10:45 PM
God loves each and everyone of us as he loves himself, we are created as children in his own image. He gave us the greatest commandments to love our neighbour as we love ourselves. There are around two thousand passages in the Bible, that tell us how we should treat the poor and oppressed.

God has given us more than enough recourses to go round, sadly twenty percent of the world population, owns around eighty percent of its assets.

God has sent you, me and everyone else to be a part of the solution, we have the instructions, it should not be rocket science to help those in need.

Billions of dollars are spent on the diet industry, we throw mountains of food away, the war budget would feed the starving. We trade unfairly with poor countries, paying their workers a dollar or two a day to produce our goods.

I don't think God can do any more for us, we have to take some responsibility.

This is truly an excellent post. I was hoping someone would eventually talk about the elephant in the living room.

Suffering exists and God asks us to be His hands and feet in solving it. Not because He needs us, but for the blessedness of participating in His work. It's fine to criticize those who only pray for Aunt Millie's bunion to heal and I get that. But if we are not actively involved in healing the world in Christ's name, we are not Christians, we are just critics.

This is just one of the many reasons why suffering is in the world - to test those who say they love Jesus but will not lift a finger to help others. Will we help ease someone's suffering? Will we fight evil? He suffered and fought the evil one so we could escape eternal death.

Our protagonist has taken the opposite and incorrect view. He has decided to simply quit because others, in his opinion, don't know what they are doing - therefore God must not exist. That's not logic. That's not even a good excuse!

Well done Eric. This is one of the reasons why evil and suffering exists. Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

Later addition:
For those who wish to challenge this, please note that I did not say this was the main reason, just one of the many that we can know about.

1Mind1Spirit
October 19th, 2015, 11:07 PM
This is truly an excellent post. I was hoping someone would eventually talk about the elephant in the living room.

Suffering exists and God asks us to be His hands and feet in solving it. Not because He needs us, but for the blessedness of participating in His work. It's fine to criticize those who only pray for Aunt Millie's bunion to heal and I get that. But if we are not actively involved in healing the world in Christ's name, we are not Christians, we are just critics.

This is just one of the many reasons why suffering is in the world - to test those who say they love Jesus but will not lift a finger to help others. Will we help ease someone's suffering? Will we fight evil? He suffered and fought the evil one so we could escape eternal death.

Our protagonist has taken the opposite and incorrect view. He has decided to simply quit because others, in his opinion, don't know what they are doing - therefore God must not exist. That's not logic. That's not even a good excuse!

Well done Eric. This is one of the reasons why evil and suffering exists. Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

Later addition:
For those who wish to challenge this, please note that I did not say this was the main reason, just one of the many that we can know about.

Peace makin's cool in my book.

glorydaz
October 19th, 2015, 11:07 PM
Romans 9:13

ďAs it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.Ē

Occasionally the Bible offers us things not quickly or easily heard ... therein lay learning to those open to it.

That is talking about nations. Very quickly and easily heard if you simply take the context into consideration. "Two nations are in your womb..."

Why did God hate Esau? Because Esau was Edom, and Edom was so cruel to Israel that God calls them, ""The people against whom the Lord hath indignation for ever". Read about it. It's quite interesting. And much better than making stuff up.


Genesis 36:19
Now these are the generations of Esau, who is Edom.

Genesis 36:8
Thus dwelt Esau in mount Seir: Esau is Edom.

Genesis 36:19
These are the sons of Esau, who is Edom, and these are their dukes.

George Affleck
October 19th, 2015, 11:16 PM
We are His solution

Actually, it is quite the opposite.

He is, in every way conceivable, our solution.

A good example is prayer. The main reason for prayer, is not to have an effect or bend his arm, but to be part of His plan in which He invites us to participate.

If we pray, according to His will, when he brings it to pass, we have, by His grace, participated alongside Him in bringing glory to God.

If we do not pray, we have not participated in anything.

The same is true of alleviating suffering and fighting evil. He invites us to participate in the same way. When we do, we are rewarded in that we have worked with God. This is how He solves us, by allowing us to be His hands and feet. What a blessing!

quip
October 19th, 2015, 11:45 PM
Hi Quip!

Still quipping I see.

Hi GA. :wave:

Ever wonder of the pantheon of historical gods....especially their divine fate?

1Mind1Spirit
October 20th, 2015, 12:22 AM
That is talking about nations. Very quickly and easily heard if you simply take the context into consideration. "Two nations are in your womb..."

Why did God hate Esau? Because Esau was Edom, and Edom was so cruel to Israel that God calls them, ""The people against whom the Lord hath indignation for ever". Read about it. It's quite interesting. And much better than making stuff up.


Genesis 36:19
Now these are the generations of Esau, who is Edom.

Genesis 36:8
Thus dwelt Esau in mount Seir: Esau is Edom.

Genesis 36:19
These are the sons of Esau, who is Edom, and these are their dukes.

Sure they became nations.

Two.

So if Paul is speaking of these two Nations who are these multiple vessels?


Romans 9:22 KJV


22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known , endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,


Uh Oh there's those riches again.

So all Gentiles are Edomites?

Talk about makin' stuff up.


24 Even us, whom he hath called , not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

MichaelCadry
October 20th, 2015, 12:36 AM
Dear All,

It is quite simple. God says that 'everyone in the future will have to travel to see Him every year. And upon that city/country that does not believe and acknowledge, and love God and Jesus, upon them shall be no rain.' The actual verse I can't remember, nor do I know where it is in the Bible, but it's there. I cannot think of a distinguishing word to find it with my Concordance. Does most of Africa believe in God and Jesus, and serve them with the love of them in their hearts??! Basically, if you don't worship or serve God, upon you shall be no rain for your crops. That means no veggies for that family but also no crops to feed their livestock, so that means no meat or eggs, or honey, etc. for them either. That's why some countries are starving and some are doing excellent. The U.S. is still okay, but it is getting a lot worse about upholding God and His ways, and we're going to end up paying for it if we don't change. There should also be No Gay Weddings. A civil union is more than enough. If they want certain rights, they can have them by putting them in writing and having them approved by a Notary. There is no reason for gays getting married. That is reserved to a man and a woman. The U.S. will pay if they don't change their decision about this. Also, no abortions. You are killing a human being. Which one of you wishes his/her Mom would have aborted them? Unless your life is pretty bad, you would all answer No! Life is pretty nice for 'most' people. Do you wish your Mom would have murdered you while you were still in her womb? C'mon!

While we're at it, ever since women wanted equal rights as men, they have taken jobs and both couples work a job. This caused vendors to increase their prices because there was a larger household income. This forced most women to leave the kids and have to work a job also, to manage to pay for things. Both parents had to work and leave their kids in Day Care or with a babysitter. The kids suffer because they don't have a parent home to watch them and raise them. This, in turn, hurts the child's development IMMENSELY!! They are not taught right and wrong correctly and they are not taught as well in school because both parents don't have time to help them with their homework or help them grow up. They need the love of one parent staying home to raise them. Now either the man can work or the woman can work, and the man stay home and raise the kids, but one of them has to do it, and prices have to go back down to a one-family income. Do you see how this has wreaked havoc upon our nation?? Don't you?? You have no idea unless you really thought about it deeply and studied it!! Prices are too dang high and they should go back down to what they used to be. Things are ridiculous now!! And children would be raised right, so there would be way less crime and less need for guns!! None of you realize why our nation has changed so drastically. I'm not saying that there should be no women's rights. If they want to be employed, they should be paid the exact amount as a man doing the same job, and leaving their man at home to take care of the home and children. That really wraps up a lot of it, in a nutshell.

Michael

P.S. I copied this post to my Creation vs Evolution thread where I can expound on it as necessary. Hope you like it!! Mike.



:cloud9: :angel: :angel: :angel: :cloud9: :guitar: :singer: :rapture:

Eric h
October 20th, 2015, 01:04 AM
He is, in every way conceivable, our solution.

A good example is prayer. The main reason for prayer, is not to have an effect or bend his arm, but to be part of His plan in which He invites us to participate.

If we pray, according to His will, when he brings it to pass, we have, by His grace, participated alongside Him in bringing glory to God.



Amen


If we do not pray, we have not participated in anything.

I kind or agree, but people can still work towards doing good without prayer. It just seems that when we pray to do God's will, and work towards those ends, our efforts are multiplied.


The same is true of alleviating suffering and fighting evil. He invites us to participate in the same way. When we do, we are rewarded in that we have worked with God. This is how He solves us, by allowing us to be His hands and feet. What a blessing!

Amen, Amen, thank you George for explaining the need of prayer.

I have been a Street Pastor for around eight years, we do not go out to preach, but we go out on the the streets until 3 - 4 am, to help those in need. We pray first, and we have people praying for us, amazing things happen that are beyond my understanding, we do the little things, and God brings about the big solutions.

I am 66, and with a couple of seventy year old ladies, we walk in the middle of a dozen drunks, who are punching the living daylights out of each other. Gradually, tensions calm, we stop with them twenty minutes, and it all ends with people hugging us and thanking us. I can't think of any conflict that we have been in, that has not ended in this way.

We have played a significant role in helping four homeless people of the streets, we try and encourage people to be kind to each other, we listen to suicidal and depressed people. After being with a lady for a couple of hours until 4 am, it ended with her handing us the knife she had just brought to end her life with.

We were just walking along, and one of our ladies had a very strong feeling we should walk through an alley. We found an unconscious lady in a doorway, it was 2 am, on a freezing cold January morning, and she was dressed for summer.

Most of what we do seems fairly trivial, but amazing things happen. I have not experienced this kind of response in any other part of my life. The times I should feel fear and worry, I sense a profound peace, that is so far beyond my understanding, and I put it down to God and prayer.

patrick jane
October 20th, 2015, 01:29 AM
Amen



I kind or agree, but people can still work towards doing good without prayer. It just seems that when we pray to do God's will, and work towards those ends, our efforts are multiplied.



Amen, Amen, thank you George for explaining the need of prayer.

I have been a Street Pastor for around eight years, we do not go out to preach, but we go out on the the streets until 3 - 4 am, to help those in need. We pray first, and we have people praying for us, amazing things happen that are beyond my understanding, we do the little things, and God brings about the big solutions.

I am 66, and with a couple of seventy year old ladies, we walk in the middle of a dozen drunks, who are punching the living daylights out of each other. Gradually, tensions calm, we stop with them twenty minutes, and it all ends with people hugging us and thanking us. I can't think of any conflict that we have been in, that has not ended in this way.

We have played a significant role in helping four homeless people of the streets, we try and encourage people to be kind to each other, we listen to suicidal and depressed people. After being with a lady for a couple of hours until 4 am, it ended with her handing us the knife she had just brought to end her life with.

We were just walking along, and one of our ladies had a very strong feeling we should walk through an alley. We found an unconscious lady in a doorway, it was 2 am, on a freezing cold January morning, and she was dressed for summer.

Most of what we do seems fairly trivial, but amazing things happen. I have not experienced this kind of response in any other part of my life. The times I should feel fear and worry, I sense a profound peace, that is so far beyond my understanding, and I put it down to God and prayer.

Amen. Good story !!

MichaelCadry
October 20th, 2015, 01:57 AM
Dear Eric h,

I'm very pleased with you and proud of you at the same time!! Sounds like you do an excellent service to God in your life. You be careful not to get hurt. Act sensibly and God will be with you as long as you let Him lead you. You sound like a lot of people's answer to their prayers!!

Praise God And Jesus, And The Holy Ghost!!!

Michael

fzappa13
October 20th, 2015, 02:27 AM
Sure they became nations.

Two.

So if Paul is speaking of these two Nations who are these multiple vessels?


Romans 9:22 KJV


22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known , endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,


Uh Oh there's those riches again.

So all Gentiles are Edomites?

Talk about makin' stuff up.


24 Even us, whom he hath called , not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

Edom has and will play a unique part in the passion play that involves the lands whose fates are so often mentioned in the Word of God. The folks who inhabit these lands are spoken of in the Bible in both a symbolic and literal manner.

The tale of Moses, et al, finally making their way into the promised land finds them being ordered by God to leave some they encountered unmolested and others completely routed (hint, Edom is on one of these lists). Herein lay one of several mysteries concerning this affair that has caused no small amount of consternation with those whose study (and, therefor, understanding) of this ordeal in a state of understanding that might be generously called cursory. I would suggest that a study of the "ites" (Jebusites, Ammonites, etc.) would not be without profit ... or prophet. ;)

fzappa13
October 20th, 2015, 02:37 AM
The actual verse I can't remember, nor do I know where it is in the Bible, but it's there.


You should have stopped right there and "done your due diligence" as TH might phrase it.

Eric h
October 20th, 2015, 05:43 AM
Dear Eric h,

You be careful not to get hurt.



Hello Michael, we have this real dilemma, health, safety and risk assessments on the one hand, the bottom line leads to avoiding the risk entirely. The alternative is pray as you go, apparently, 'do not be afraid' is mentioned 365 times in the Bible.


Act sensibly and God will be with you as long as you let Him lead you.

Act sensibly, and we would all stay at home in bed, so I am not sure that we do act sensibly. However, we pray that God will put in our path the people he needs us to see, we pray for the words and actions to spread God's love on the streets, we pray to do his will. We don't often pray for safety.

We go out in confidence, that when two or three are gathered in the name of Jesus, then he is there with us. We also know how Jesus prayed, and how his life ended here on Earth, so praying does not make us bullet proof, but we trust in the resurrection.

I have been sworn at, threatened, pushed and hit, but these all seem very minor, compared to the good that has come about. We approach a group of drunks swearing, they will tell the people off in the group who are swearing, and they will tell them to show some respect. We don't ask them to do this.
People are sometimes angry and shout at us, someone invariably comes by and says, be nice to these guys, they helped me.

Recently, a group of twenty plus drunks were coming towards us shouting and swearing, one guys voice was above the rest, I am going to f.....g hit someone. The angry guy came up to us, shook all our hands several times, the tension in the crowd reduced as we stopped with them. Two weeks later, the angry guy saw us again, he came over to us and apologised for his behaviour, we did not ask him to.

This is how conflict ends with us, God is in there doing the big stuff, sometimes I just think we are a coat hanger for the Street Pastor jacket, because we don't seem to do a lot, other than trusting in prayer and being there.

It is tough to look for the good in all people, especially, when all you can see is a bunch of drunk hooligans. Take the risk to be in the middle of them, and things change, then we can start to see the good in them.


Praise God And Jesus, And The Holy Ghost!!!

Michael

Amen, Eric

chrysostom
October 20th, 2015, 06:00 AM
We go out in confidence, that when two or three are gathered in the name of Jesus, then he is there with us.

we do this every sunday

Jamie Gigliotti
October 20th, 2015, 07:31 AM
Actually, it is quite the opposite.

He is, in every way conceivable, our solution.

A good example is prayer. The main reason for prayer, is not to have an effect or bend his arm, but to be part of His plan in which He invites us to participate.

If we pray, according to His will, when he brings it to pass, we have, by His grace, participated alongside Him in bringing glory to God.

If we do not pray, we have not participated in anything.

The same is true of alleviating suffering and fighting evil. He invites us to participate in the same way. When we do, we are rewarded in that we have worked with God. This is how He solves us, by allowing us to be His hands and feet. What a blessing!

My point was Him working through us, His love working through us,

Jamie Gigliotti
October 20th, 2015, 07:40 AM
Amen



I kind or agree, but people can still work towards doing good without prayer. It just seems that when we pray to do God's will, and work towards those ends, our efforts are multiplied.



Amen, Amen, thank you George for explaining the need of prayer.

I have been a Street Pastor for around eight years, we do not go out to preach, but we go out on the the streets until 3 - 4 am, to help those in need. We pray first, and we have people praying for us, amazing things happen that are beyond my understanding, we do the little things, and God brings about the big solutions.

I am 66, and with a couple of seventy year old ladies, we walk in the middle of a dozen drunks, who are punching the living daylights out of each other. Gradually, tensions calm, we stop with them twenty minutes, and it all ends with people hugging us and thanking us. I can't think of any conflict that we have been in, that has not ended in this way.

We have played a significant role in helping four homeless people of the streets, we try and encourage people to be kind to each other, we listen to suicidal and depressed people. After being with a lady for a couple of hours until 4 am, it ended with her handing us the knife she had just brought to end her life with.

We were just walking along, and one of our ladies had a very strong feeling we should walk through an alley. We found an unconscious lady in a doorway, it was 2 am, on a freezing cold January morning, and she was dressed for summer.

Most of what we do seems fairly trivial, but amazing things happen. I have not experienced this kind of response in any other part of my life. The times I should feel fear and worry, I sense a profound peace, that is so far beyond my understanding, and I put it down to God and prayer.

Awesome testimony of what we can do through Christ who gives strenghth. Prayers for you and your ministry!

fzappa13
October 20th, 2015, 07:52 AM
Hello Michael, we have this real dilemma, health, safety and risk assessments on the one hand, the bottom line leads to avoiding the risk entirely. The alternative is pray as you go, apparently, 'do not be afraid' is mentioned 365 times in the Bible.
Amen, Eric

Conquering fear is job one. The rest is easy ... er.

fzappa13
October 20th, 2015, 07:59 AM
"IF god were real, why would he spend so much time in white America answering the minutia of prayer he receives while leaving so many millions to starve to death or watch their children starve?"

This is a quote from MrDeets blogpost (http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/blog.php?b=2456) which seems to me to be the essence of a long unanswered difficulty he struggled with. This is a reasonable question and a real issue for many and can be used effectively by Satan if left unanswered.

I encourage all serious, biblical/theological input.

Funny, in rereading the title of the O.P. it occurred to me that you left out an "O".

fzappa13
October 20th, 2015, 08:02 AM
we do this every sunday

So, whatcha doing the rest of the week?

Que Jethro Tull ...

George Affleck
October 20th, 2015, 08:05 AM
Dear All,

It is quite simple. God says that 'everyone in the future will have to travel to see Him every year. And upon that city/country that does not believe and acknowledge, and love God and Jesus, upon them shall be no rain.' The actual verse I can't remember, nor do I know where it is in the Bible, but it's there. I cannot think of a distinguishing word to find it with my Concordance.
Michael



Michael, you are probably thinking of Zech 14:17

Except for the fact that all scripture comes from God and therefore agrees with itself, this passage has little to do with illuminating our understanding as to why evil/suffering is in the world.

George Affleck
October 20th, 2015, 08:12 AM
Funny, in rereading the title of the O.P. it occurred to me that you left out an "O".

I must be blind! - I can't find it.

fzappa13
October 20th, 2015, 08:14 AM
I must be blind! - I can't find it.

Go(O)d and evil. No, wait, God is good. Never mind.

Eric h
October 20th, 2015, 10:32 AM
Awesome testimony of what we can do through Christ who gives strenghth. Prayers for you and your ministry!

Thanks for the prayers, we have some awesome people out with Street Pastors, we have a seventy eight year old lady in our team. The oldest Pastor is only ninety one, although not in our area !!

1Mind1Spirit
October 20th, 2015, 06:54 PM
Edom has and will play a unique part in the passion play that involves the lands whose fates are so often mentioned in the Word of God. The folks who inhabit these lands are spoken of in the Bible in both a symbolic and literal manner.

The tale of Moses, et al, finally making their way into the promised land finds them being ordered by God to leave some they encountered unmolested and others completely routed (hint, Edom is on one of these lists). Herein lay one of several mysteries concerning this affair that has caused no small amount of consternation with those whose study (and, therefor, understanding) of this ordeal in a state of understanding that might be generously called cursory. I would suggest that a study of the "ites" (Jebusites, Ammonites, etc.) would not be without profit ... or prophet. ;)

Right on, bro.

I've done a little prayin' and seeking there, also.

I'm not adverse to a brother sharing some of the things they've been led to look into.

Trading and gaining. :cool:

fzappa13
October 20th, 2015, 08:19 PM
Right on, bro.

I've done a little prayin' and seeking there, also.

I'm not adverse to a brother sharing some of the things they've been led to look into.

Trading and gaining. :cool:

Well, ideally that's the way it should work. The hands and the feet and the eyes all coming together to make a body. Problem is the hands want to get together and say if you're not a hand you're not of the body and the eyes are doing the same thing and then, well ... :sigh: ... come Lord Jesus.

MichaelCadry
October 21st, 2015, 02:11 AM
Dear George,

Thank you tons for finding that verse!! It is the one I meant. Whatever one gleans from it is another issue.

Much Love, In Christ,

Michael

Caino
October 21st, 2015, 04:52 AM
"IF god were real, why would he spend so much time in white America answering the minutia of prayer he receives while leaving so many millions to starve to death or watch their children starve?"

This is a quote from MrDeets blogpost (http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/blog.php?b=2456) which seems to me to be the essence of a long unanswered difficulty he struggled with. This is a reasonable question and a real issue for many and can be used effectively by Satan if left unanswered.

I encourage all serious, biblical/theological input.

God answers all sincere prayers, it's either, yes, no or wait. Because the truth is, most selfish prayers are not answered in the way the praying person wishes. Effective prayer is essentially a process of exchanging our will for Gods will. God is not Santa Claus anywhere in the world.

All men and women of the earth are children of God, as such we are expected to work out our many difficulties as one human family.

Satan is Gone, he is not now, nor was he ever, no could he ever be "God of this world". That was his first great lie/delusion.


Have NO faith in the power of Satan!

George Affleck
October 21st, 2015, 07:22 AM
Hi GA. :wave:

Ever wonder of the pantheon of historical gods....especially their divine fate?

Not at all!

My God is sufficient to capture all my thinking.

George Affleck
October 21st, 2015, 08:35 AM
So, after nearly 150 posts, what do we have of value so far in reply to this question: "IF god were real, why would he spend so much time in white America answering the minutia of prayer he receives while leaving so many millions to starve to death or watch their children starve?" by MrDeets?
Quite a bit really.

1. Discriminatory judgements from ignorance cannot be compared to God's perfect discernment regarding skin colour or prayer importance. It is He alone who looks on the heart. Jer 17:10KJV
fishrovmen

2. What is considered suffering in this world is a blink of an eye in comparison to eternity after death. Rom 8:18KJV 1Cor 2:9KJV
patrick jane, glorydaz

3. What logic compels a person to conclude there is no God because some do not worship Him properly? God knows this already. Mat 23:27KJV Ps 51:6KJV
fishrovmen, George Affleck

4. Affliction and hardship is the natural outworking of a broken world and verification that sin is dynamic, real and has permeated every facet of creation. Rom 8:22KJV
6days, George Affleck

5. How much evil/suffering or prayers of "minutia" would need to be eliminated for this question to never be asked? If evil/suffering were completely eliminated and all was good, who would seek God? A faith unable to be tried is no faith at all. 2Ch 33:12KJV Ps 50:15KJV
fishrovmen, George Affleck, fzappa13

6. Although we can learn much, the full answer to why evil/suffering is in the world is wrapped up in the infinite wisdom of God and cannot be fully comprehended or appreciated. It is sufficient to say that God wills righteously what men do wickedly. Is 55:9KJV
MrDeets, PureX, fishrovmen, AMR

7. Although He does not have to, God takes full responsibility for vanquishing evil and comforting suffering in His perfect timing. Matt 25:41KJV Matt 5:4KJV Rev 21:4KJV
George Affleck, AMR

8. Our present "knowledge of good and evil" and the difference between them is what we would expect if the Genesis account is true. Because God is good we are given a standard by which evil can be recognized and condemned. 1 Cor 14:33KJV

9. A knowledge of the languages God chose for revelation reveals that "good" (tov) carries the meaning of functionally created which has a latent potential for interference, if God allows, labelled "evil" (ra'a). These concepts are not individually subjective or personally determined in our modern sense and we are not entitled to criticism by reason of our created existence.
PPS

10. Suffering via evil is an invitation to believers to participate in God's work. It is a proving ground for believers and haters of evil. Jas 2:20KJV
Eric h, George Affleck, 6days

11. Automation provides no option. One cannot truly and freely choose to love God without an option. God desires fellowship with His created beings and has repaired the problem that prevented it by grace through faith. Mat 23:37KJV 1 John 4:10KJV
Jamie Gigliotti

And there is much more...

Totton Linnet
October 22nd, 2015, 04:37 PM
No.7.

God has done all He is ever going to do to vanquish evil, He did it 2,000 years ago. It was for the church to announce it to every creature.

But the church changed it to God will one day vanquish evil.

There is only one enemy that remains and that is death....and death [for us ] has lost it's sting......this revelation of course will be persecuted......we have been promised that.

The reason why the church changed the message to pie in the sky was because they had lost the power and demonstration of the Holy Spirit, The Holy Ghost no longer worked with them as He did in Acts....because they had [by 100 ad] turned to worshipping the eucharist, clericalism, sacramental salvation etc.

Whereas the first disciples turned the world upside down, the "Catholic" church ground to a snail's pace.

patrick jane
October 22nd, 2015, 04:43 PM
No.7.

God has done all He is ever going to do to vanquish evil, He did it 2,000 years ago. It was for the church to announce it to every creature.

But the church changed it to God will one day vanquish evil.

There is only one enemy that remains and that is death....and death [for us ] has lost it's sting......this revelation of course will be persecuted......we have been promised that.


Yes Tots,

1 Corinthians 15:51-52 KJV - 1 Corinthians 15:53 KJV -


1 Corinthians 15:54 KJV - 1 Corinthians 15:55 KJV -

George Affleck
October 22nd, 2015, 05:14 PM
No.7.

God has done all He is ever going to do to vanquish evil, He did it 2,000 years ago. It was for the church to announce it to every creature.

But the church changed it to God will one day vanquish evil.

There is only one enemy that remains and that is death....and death [for us ] has lost it's sting......this revelation of course will be persecuted......we have been promised that.

Tot,

Agree entirely in the judicial and redemptive sense - it is finished and dealt with. John 19:30KJV

However, in a practical sense, for our benefit, and because we still sinners whether saved or unsaved, evil and suffering are still with us in this world until the new heavens and new earth. It is now for us to resist evil Rom 12:21KJV and alleviate suffering Prov 19:17KJV

Totton Linnet
October 22nd, 2015, 05:22 PM
Tot,

Agree entirely in the judicial and redemptive sense - it is finished and dealt with. John 19:30KJV

However, in a practical sense, for our benefit, and because we still sinners whether saved or unsaved, evil and suffering are still with us in this world until the new heavens and new earth. It is now for us to resist evil Rom 12:21KJV and alleviate suffering Prov 19:17KJV

It is what people perceive as evil, evil to be accepted as common to all men and evil which has come upon mankind as a direct result of sin and therefore to be resisted with the same vigour that sin itself is to be resisted.

Understanding that some evils came as a curse upon mankind and then understanding that Christ bore the curse along with the sin.

Sickness and poverty are a curse upon mankind. India could have been saved before now.

aikido7
October 22nd, 2015, 05:25 PM
Ok interesting point i just think if God created the world and Mankind he would of eradicated all evil at conception, or is our perception of what God intended incorrect... maybe he wants to have all the conflict and suffering and then see how we deal with it , either way i cant help thinking its a bit perverse of him and a bit hypocritical.My feeling is that if God disallowed the fact of evil in ourselves and in the world, humanity would not be alive in any rational sense.

aikido7
October 22nd, 2015, 05:30 PM
Interesting ,

Can you please explain how you came to that conclusion or where it is clearly documented , as i would say Mankind is made in gods image is a very common misconception if you are correct.In my opinion, we can't stop from living with God and seeing our own image in everything we come up with.

There are 10 Commandments, 10 Rules of Being a Good Boss, 10 Things to Remember Before You Get Marriage--ALL BECAUSE WE HAVE TEN FINGERS & TOES.

Three is another number that often surfaces in religious writings and other sources that men interpret. The Doctrine of the Trinity is a good example from Christian theology. So are the three measures of flour added to so many biblical recipes.

aikido7
October 22nd, 2015, 05:38 PM
When we recognize evil or bad behavior in others, it is because we first recognize it in ourselves.

There is no way a human being can be properly socialized without noticing that he or she has a lot of personal experience with bad behavior.

It is only when we point the finger at and judge others that we connect with the clues that reveal our own sins.

And Jesus taught us to do this by his admonition to pay attention to the logs in our own eyes FIRST before we point a finger at others.

fzappa13
October 22nd, 2015, 05:39 PM
In my opinion, we can't stop from living with God and seeing our own image in everything we come up with.

There are 10 Commandments, 10 Rules of Being a Good Boss, 10 Things to Remember Before You Get Marriage--ALL BECAUSE WE HAVE TEN FINGERS & TOES.

Three is another number that often surfaces in religious writings and other sources that men interpret. The Doctrine of the Trinity is a good example from Christian theology. So are the three measures of flour added to so many biblical recipes.


Psssst ...that's 20.

George Affleck
October 22nd, 2015, 06:17 PM
Psssst ...that's 20.

I know...

And if you divide that by 10 that is 2 which is exactly the number of ears we have!!!!!!

Scary. :jawdrop:

George Affleck
October 22nd, 2015, 06:19 PM
Actually we only have 8 fingers.

George Affleck
October 22nd, 2015, 06:25 PM
This numerology thing could catch on.

We have 8 fingers and 2 thumbs.
That makes 10 digits.

1,000,000,000 also has 10 digits, but no fingers.

What does it all mean?

1Mind1Spirit
October 22nd, 2015, 07:09 PM
Three is another number that often surfaces in religious writings and other sources that men interpret. The Doctrine of the Trinity is a good example from Christian theology. So are the three measures of flour added to so many biblical recipes.

Epistle of Barnabas


CHAPTER 8

The sacrifice of a heifer

1 But what do you think that it typifies, that the commandment has been given to Israel that the men in whom sin is complete offer a heifer and slay it and burn it, and that boys then take the ashes and put them into vessels and bind scarlet wool on sticks (see again the type of the Cross and the scarlet wool) and hyssop, and that the boys all sprinkle the people thus one by one in order that they all be purified from their sins?

2 Observe how plainly he speaks to you. The calf is Jesus; the sinful men offering it are those who brought him to be slain. Then there are no longer men, no longer the glory of sinners.

3 The boys who sprinkle are they who preached to us the forgiveness of sins, and the purification of the heart, to whom he gave the power of the Gospel to preach, and there are twelve as a testimony to the tribes, because there are twelve tribes of Israel.

4 But why are there three boys who sprinkle? As a testimony to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, for these are great before God.

5 And why was the wool put on the wood? Because the kingdom of Jesus is on the wood, and because those who hope on him shall live for ever.

6 But why are the wool and the hyssop together? Because in his kingdom there shall be evil and foul days, in which we shall be saved, for he also who has pain in his flesh is cured by the foulness of the hyssop.

7 And for this reason the things which were thus done are plain to us, but obscure to them, because they did not hear the Lord's voice.

patrick jane
October 22nd, 2015, 07:44 PM
Epistle of Barnabas


CHAPTER 8

The sacrifice of a heifer

1 But what do you think that it typifies, that the commandment has been given to Israel that the men in whom sin is complete offer a heifer and slay it and burn it, and that boys then take the ashes and put them into vessels and bind scarlet wool on sticks (see again the type of the Cross and the scarlet wool) and hyssop, and that the boys all sprinkle the people thus one by one in order that they all be purified from their sins?

2 Observe how plainly he speaks to you. The calf is Jesus; the sinful men offering it are those who brought him to be slain. Then there are no longer men, no longer the glory of sinners.

3 The boys who sprinkle are they who preached to us the forgiveness of sins, and the purification of the heart, to whom he gave the power of the Gospel to preach, and there are twelve as a testimony to the tribes, because there are twelve tribes of Israel.

4 But why are there three boys who sprinkle? As a testimony to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, for these are great before God.

5 And why was the wool put on the wood? Because the kingdom of Jesus is on the wood, and because those who hope on him shall live for ever.

6 But why are the wool and the hyssop together? Because in his kingdom there shall be evil and foul days, in which we shall be saved, for he also who has pain in his flesh is cured by the foulness of the hyssop.

7 And for this reason the things which were thus done are plain to us, but obscure to them, because they did not hear the Lord's voice.

Calvinistic tendencies, hints of JW, shades of anti-trinity, anti-Paul, anti MAD, and now you follow apocrypha ?

fzappa13
October 22nd, 2015, 08:14 PM
I know...

And if you divide that by 10 that is 2 which is exactly the number of ears we have!!!!!!

Scary. :jawdrop:

What's reeeeeealy scary is some folks don't have ears no matter what kind of math you use ... :shocked:

1Mind1Spirit
October 22nd, 2015, 08:31 PM
Calvinistic tendencies, hints of JW, shades of anti-trinity, anti-Paul, anti MAD, and now you follow apocrypha ?

It only looks like that cause you've been starin' at dispensationism so loooong. :)

patrick jane
October 22nd, 2015, 08:32 PM
It only looks like that cause you've been starin' at dispensationism to loooong. :)

just razzin ya :)

1Mind1Spirit
October 22nd, 2015, 08:36 PM
just razzin ya :)

Now yuh tell me.

:mmph: :turkey: :D

George Affleck
October 22nd, 2015, 08:58 PM
What's reeeeeealy scary is some folks don't have ears no matter what kind of math you use ... :shocked:

True.

George Affleck
October 22nd, 2015, 09:00 PM
Hey, PJ!

You went and had a makeover! :Nineveh:

aikido7
October 22nd, 2015, 09:24 PM
Psssst ...that's 20.I realize there are two or three different versions of the commandments. But since we all reflexively say there are 10, I was trying to make it simple.

Sorry for the confusion.

aikido7
October 22nd, 2015, 09:27 PM
Epistle of Barnabas


CHAPTER 8

The sacrifice of a heifer

1 But what do you think that it typifies, that the commandment has been given to Israel that the men in whom sin is complete offer a heifer and slay it and burn it, and that boys then take the ashes and put them into vessels and bind scarlet wool on sticks (see again the type of the Cross and the scarlet wool) and hyssop, and that the boys all sprinkle the people thus one by one in order that they all be purified from their sins?

2 Observe how plainly he speaks to you. The calf is Jesus; the sinful men offering it are those who brought him to be slain. Then there are no longer men, no longer the glory of sinners.

3 The boys who sprinkle are they who preached to us the forgiveness of sins, and the purification of the heart, to whom he gave the power of the Gospel to preach, and there are twelve as a testimony to the tribes, because there are twelve tribes of Israel.

4 But why are there three boys who sprinkle? As a testimony to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, for these are great before God.

5 And why was the wool put on the wood? Because the kingdom of Jesus is on the wood, and because those who hope on him shall live for ever.

6 But why are the wool and the hyssop together? Because in his kingdom there shall be evil and foul days, in which we shall be saved, for he also who has pain in his flesh is cured by the foulness of the hyssop.

7 And for this reason the things which were thus done are plain to us, but obscure to them, because they did not hear the Lord's voice.
I don't know what the connection is. Sorry, I must be brain damaged.

One cool thing in Barnabas is the verse that says the villagers drove the scapegoat from their midst by using REEDS.

That's what the gospel authors were thinking about when they said the Roman soldiers used reeds to beat and humiliate Jesus.

aikido7
October 22nd, 2015, 09:29 PM
This numerology thing could catch on.

We have 8 fingers and 2 thumbs.
That makes 10 digits.

1,000,000,000 also has 10 digits, but no fingers.

What does it all mean?

I need both to extend my hand and give you a BIG one (hand).
Sorry about putting you under pressure. I have a billion digits.

Like me or not, ya gotta hand it to me.

fzappa13
October 23rd, 2015, 02:09 AM
I don't know what the connection is. Sorry, I must be brain damaged.

One cool thing in Barnabas is the verse that says the villagers drove the scapegoat from their midst by using REEDS.

That's what the gospel authors were thinking about when they said the Roman soldiers used reeds to beat and humiliate Jesus.

That deal with the scape goat is one of the most poorly understood passages in the Bible ... and you can start with the fact that the (e)scape goat is the one that gets away. :rapture: His compatriot doesn't fare so well.

fzappa13
October 23rd, 2015, 08:37 PM
I realize there are two or three different versions of the commandments. But since we all reflexively say there are 10, I was trying to make it simple.

Sorry for the confusion.

No confusion ... but when you lob one like that over the plate ... well ... a guy's just gotta swing.

George Affleck
October 23rd, 2015, 08:49 PM
Before we get sidetracked, are there any other answers anyone would like to put forward?

Here is our list so far:


1. Discriminatory judgements from ignorance cannot be compared to God's perfect discernment regarding skin colour or prayer importance. It is He alone who looks on the heart. Jer 17:10KJV
fishrovmen

2. What is considered suffering in this world is a blink of an eye in comparison to eternity after death. Rom 8:18KJV 1Cor 2:9KJV
patrick jane, glorydaz

3. What logic compels a person to conclude there is no God because some do not worship Him properly? God knows this already. Mat 23:27KJV Ps 51:6KJV
fishrovmen, George Affleck

4. Affliction and hardship is the natural outworking of a broken world and verification that sin is dynamic, real and has permeated every facet of creation. Rom 8:22KJV
6days, George Affleck

5. How much evil/suffering or prayers of "minutia" would need to be eliminated for this question to never be asked? If evil/suffering were completely eliminated and all was good, who would seek God? A faith unable to be tried is no faith at all. 2Ch 33:12KJV Ps 50:15KJV
fishrovmen, George Affleck, fzappa13

6. Although we can learn much, the full answer to why evil/suffering is in the world is wrapped up in the infinite wisdom of God and cannot be fully comprehended or appreciated. It is sufficient to say that God wills righteously what men do wickedly. Is 55:9KJV
MrDeets, PureX, fishrovmen, AMR

7. Although He does not have to, God takes full responsibility for vanquishing evil and comforting suffering in His perfect timing. Matt 25:41KJV Matt 5:4KJV Rev 21:4KJV
George Affleck, AMR

8. Our present "knowledge of good and evil" and the difference between them is what we would expect if the Genesis account is true. Because God is good we are given a standard by which evil can be recognized and condemned. 1 Cor 14:33KJV

9. A knowledge of the languages God chose for revelation reveals that "good" (tov) carries the meaning of functionally created which has a latent potential for interference, if God allows, labelled "evil" (ra'a). These concepts are not individually subjective or personally determined in our modern sense and we are not entitled to criticism by reason of our created existence.
PPS

10. Suffering via evil is an invitation to believers to participate in God's work. It is a proving ground for believers and haters of evil. Jas 2:20KJV
Eric h, George Affleck, 6days

11. Automation provides no option. One cannot truly and freely choose to love God without an option. God desires fellowship with His created beings and has repaired the problem that prevented it by grace through faith. Mat 23:37KJV 1 John 4:10KJV
Jamie Gigliotti

What else?

fzappa13
October 23rd, 2015, 09:01 PM
Before we get sidetracked, are there any other answers anyone would like to put forward?

Here is our list so far:


1. Discriminatory judgements from ignorance cannot be compared to God's perfect discernment regarding skin colour or prayer importance. It is He alone who looks on the heart. Jer 17:10KJV
fishrovmen

2. What is considered suffering in this world is a blink of an eye in comparison to eternity after death. Rom 8:18KJV 1Cor 2:9KJV
patrick jane, glorydaz

3. What logic compels a person to conclude there is no God because some do not worship Him properly? God knows this already. Mat 23:27KJV Ps 51:6KJV
fishrovmen, George Affleck

4. Affliction and hardship is the natural outworking of a broken world and verification that sin is dynamic, real and has permeated every facet of creation. Rom 8:22KJV
6days, George Affleck

5. How much evil/suffering or prayers of "minutia" would need to be eliminated for this question to never be asked? If evil/suffering were completely eliminated and all was good, who would seek God? A faith unable to be tried is no faith at all. 2Ch 33:12KJV Ps 50:15KJV
fishrovmen, George Affleck, fzappa13

6. Although we can learn much, the full answer to why evil/suffering is in the world is wrapped up in the infinite wisdom of God and cannot be fully comprehended or appreciated. It is sufficient to say that God wills righteously what men do wickedly. Is 55:9KJV
MrDeets, PureX, fishrovmen, AMR

7. Although He does not have to, God takes full responsibility for vanquishing evil and comforting suffering in His perfect timing. Matt 25:41KJV Matt 5:4KJV Rev 21:4KJV
George Affleck, AMR

8. Our present "knowledge of good and evil" and the difference between them is what we would expect if the Genesis account is true. Because God is good we are given a standard by which evil can be recognized and condemned. 1 Cor 14:33KJV

9. A knowledge of the languages God chose for revelation reveals that "good" (tov) carries the meaning of functionally created which has a latent potential for interference, if God allows, labelled "evil" (ra'a). These concepts are not individually subjective or personally determined in our modern sense and we are not entitled to criticism by reason of our created existence.
PPS

10. Suffering via evil is an invitation to believers to participate in God's work. It is a proving ground for believers and haters of evil. Jas 2:20KJV
Eric h, George Affleck, 6days

11. Automation provides no option. One cannot truly and freely choose to love God without an option. God desires fellowship with His created beings and has repaired the problem that prevented it by grace through faith. Mat 23:37KJV 1 John 4:10KJV
Jamie Gigliotti

What else?

I've been rightly accused by PPS of a penchant to summate. In (5) I suggested a faith untried is no faith. As it concerns (11) I would suggest that a love that is commanded is not love.

George Affleck
October 23rd, 2015, 09:10 PM
I've been rightly accused by PPS of a penchant to summate. In (5) I suggested a faith untried is no faith. As it concerns (11) I would suggest that a love that is commanded is not love.

Excellent! I will add that but not post it until others have had a chance to weigh in.

George Affleck
October 23rd, 2015, 09:26 PM
The English word 'suffering' is very interesting.

I am thinking, for instance, of the difference between the suffering of the poor or sick and to suffer or allow as when Jesus said "Suffer the little children to come unto me".

The word also can mean 'to bear' which actually bridges the meaning gap between the two.

George Affleck
October 23rd, 2015, 10:03 PM
What about the consideration that, if evil and suffering were not available for God to allow, Christ could not have been crucified.

Indeed, if this were true, we would be in our sins without a redeemer. The original sin was not evil; it was disobedience. Jesus would undoubtedly be available and willing, but there would be no evil to tempt Him, scourge Him, revile Him, spit on Him, crucify Him and He could not suffer.

aikido7
October 23rd, 2015, 10:24 PM
That deal with the scape goat is one of the most poorly understood passages in the Bible ... and you can start with the fact that the (e)scape goat is the one that gets away. :rapture: His compatriot doesn't fare so well.Maybe you could get me in touch with those people who understand the passage just as it meant to its original author(s). And as it meant to its ancient readers and listeners.

aikido7
October 23rd, 2015, 10:29 PM
Calvinistic tendencies, hints of JW, shades of anti-trinity, anti-Paul, anti MAD, and now you follow apocrypha ?The Bible was written and compiled by inspired believers. Everything is an interpretation, including the sentence being read now.

The many traditions, translations, versions in Christian bookstores, theologies, narratives, metaphors and legends are contradictory and have many discrepancies.

But they are a record of our Christian faith and we have to take all the many genres solemnly and purposefully.

fzappa13
October 23rd, 2015, 10:53 PM
Maybe you could get me in touch with those people who understand the passage just as it meant to its original author(s). And as it meant to its ancient readers and listeners.

You can start by reading the passage in question. There are two goats involved. One is sacrificed and one is led into the wilderness by the hand of strong man. Our modern culture mistakenly refers to the scape goat as one that has suffered the less preferable fate of the two and I would suggest a simple reading of the passage sufficient to dispense with that notion at first read. That said, there are things worse than dying. Read the Bible long enough and you will see that this and all other ordinances were prophetic in nature and with a little luck you will spot similarities with them and what shows up later in the Bible. They point to the same things. These two goats and their respective fates are every bit as prophetic as that of the lamb without spot.

ttruscott
October 24th, 2015, 04:27 PM
"IF god were real, why would he spend so much time in white America answering the minutia of prayer he receives while leaving so many millions to starve to death or watch their children starve?"

This is a quote from MrDeets blogpost (http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/blog.php?b=2456) which seems to me to be the essence of a long unanswered difficulty he struggled with. This is a reasonable question and a real issue for many and can be used effectively by Satan if left unanswered.

I encourage all serious, biblical/theological input.

GOD is loving holiness so
NO innocents suffer.
Only sinners suffer.
Only sinners are born as men.

Death and suffering do not prove GOD is absent or evil since HE claims to be their righteous judge bringing justice upon the wicked. Bad things do not happen to good people; bad things happen to bad people, that is, everyone.

quip
October 25th, 2015, 03:41 AM
If God be truely immanent then His existence would be categorically apparent; accepted effortlessly as say, our capacity to feel the very pangs of suffering itself. As such, a life dedicated to ignoring His truth would be justly punished and equally insufferable.

Though no such effort against/for the notion of God's existence/nature need exist necessarily.

As it stands we exist in total ignorance to any godly existence, ergo we struggle supplanting one redaction of God (divine law) over another. Unneccessary divisiveness, skepticism, pain and suffering ensues....of which - by way of godly omniscience - could be effortlessly precluded.

Desert Reign
October 25th, 2015, 07:45 AM
Our flawed and limited perception of right and wrong, the struggle between good and evil, is because the whole of our entity is damaged by the fall. The only difference between those who are Christians and those who are not (in essence) is that Christians, by the gift of faith, now understand that because they are sinners, all thoughts and dogma must be governed strictly by the Revelation that God has provided.

As opposed to the Bible, which states that before Adam disobeyed, man had no knowledge whatsoever of good and evil but afterwards he 'had become like one of us, knowing good and evil.'
God did not say 'Now the man has become like one of us, and his previously perfect perception of good and evil has turned into a limited perception of right and wrong and the struggle between good and evil.'
So you must have invented that.

It's a good job we do have the Bible so that we can check out when you have invented things and when you are speaking the truth; indeed, as you say, thought and dogma should be governed strictly by the revelation of God. I would suggest though, that the origin of your ideas was rather with Augustine or with Calvin, not with the Bible itself.

fzappa13
October 25th, 2015, 09:03 AM
If God be truely immanent then His existence would be categorically apparent; accepted effortlessly as say, our capacity to feel the very pangs of suffering itself. As such, a life dedicated to ignoring His truth would be justly punished and equally insufferable.

Though no such effort against/for the notion of God's existence/nature need exist necessarily.

As it stands we exist in total ignorance to any godly existence, ergo we struggle supplanting one redaction of God (divine law) over another. Unneccessary divisiveness, skepticism, pain and suffering ensues....of which - by way of godly omniscience - could be effortlessly precluded.

..... mmmmm ... who's "we?"

ananomyx
October 25th, 2015, 09:31 AM
If God were to end evil and suffering He would have to put an end to sin. To put an end to sin He would have to force people to do good. If he forces then it is not free will and we would be no different than robots. If God ends evil where would he begin since all humans are fallible and corrupt. He would have to end all life. Evil only points us to a real PERFECT MORAL LAW which we know exist because of the question. A lot of times we stay focused on this temporary life and forget without God no evil thing will ever be judged in the futire. With God all things ever done will be accounted for He says vengence is His. We will all give an account of the good and the bad we have done while here.
Also without pain there is no real growth in character. Its the pain we see or go through that molds us and changes us to be better people (although some let the pain make them bitter).

Link removed

Desert Reign
October 25th, 2015, 09:55 AM
With God all things ever done will be accounted for He says vengence is His. We will all give an account of the good and the bad we have done while here.
Also without pain there is no real growth in character. Its the pain we see or go through that molds us and changes us to be better people (although some let the pain make them bitter).


I don't agree with all you say but with the above I do. Pain and suffering are normal human experiences and nothing we should ask God to remove or hold him responsible for. In the same way, joy and happiness are normal. They are both mutually defining. When we think of suffering we also think of joy and happiness.

Pain and suffering, joy and happiness are the real boundaries of our personalities. They reflect that we are truly self-determining beings. They are our point of interaction with the outside world.

When I say that we are truly self-determining, I of course deny any teaching that all our decisions and actions have been determined externally. I know a lot of people have trouble grasping this but it is basic common sense. It desn't mean we can do anything we want. Because if we could do that then we would not experience joy at success or sadness or pain at failure. When we experience joy in success it is precisely because we know there was a possibility of failure and pain. When we experience pain, it is because we know there was a possibility of joy and pleasure. The pain, the suffering, the joy, the pleasure are real. And just as real are the possibilities of their opposites.

For example, if we cheat at a computer game and amass great advantages, then we do not experience joy at having won the game. This is why cheating in life is evil, along with stealing, fraud and so on. There is no joy associated with it. Normally, what is good for one person is bad for another: you win a bet but another person loses; you suffer an earthquake but a construction company gets a contract to rebuild your house. But a cheat gets no joy from cheating and his victim gets only suffering.

These are common sense ideas and need no theology to justify them. I don't need to be redeemed in order to understand them. I don't need to tell anyone that they cannot understand this because they are fallen (the way Calvinists are fond of talking when they tell us that we cannot understand God or suffering because we are fallen and thus they get an excuse for failing to account for the inconsistencies in their theology). Truth actually belongs to everyone and it is not the exclusive province of those who claim to have revelation from God.

chrysostom
October 25th, 2015, 10:03 AM
Also without pain there is no real growth in character.

yes but it is also a test to see how you will respond

ananomyx
October 25th, 2015, 10:12 AM
i believe we are self determining likewise yet believe in Gods full sovereignty, and yes there are common sense ideas that require no theology to justify them like those laws embedded into our consciousness. But my only point was that the suffering we see doesnt negate God, but it does show us that since humanity is fallen and imperfect, we make wrong decisions, this isnt an excuse, this is just reality. Me, as a believer, understand and my goal is to explain to others why it is, and what we can do to help. We will never fix the problem because we can't force people to understand. Scripture says "but they loved darkness rather than light because their deeds were evil. For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed." So free will in a fallen world is the reason things are the way they are. And God won't mess with our free will or else it wouldn't be free will. (He wants those who will willingly choose Him)It's just a result of the fallen world we are in. Again this isnt an excuse, but just a reality. But God will have the final say, and all evil will be accounted for.

Desert Reign
October 25th, 2015, 10:25 AM
i believe we are self determining likewise yet believe in Gods full sovereignty, and yes there are common sense ideas that require no theology to justify them like those laws embedded into our consciousness. But my only point was that the suffering we see doesnt negate God, but it does show us that since humanity is fallen and imperfect, we make wrong decisions, this isnt an excuse, this is just reality. Me, as a believer, understand and my goal is to explain to others why it is, and what we can do to help. We will never fix the problem because we can't force people to understand. Scripture says "but they loved darkness rather than light because their deeds were evil. For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed." So free will in a fallen world is the reason things are the way they are. And God won't mess with our free will or else it wouldn't be free will. (He wants those who will willingly choose Him)It's just a result of the fallen world we are in. Again this isnt an excuse, but just a reality. But God will have the final say, and all evil will be accounted for.

Suffering doesn't show that we are fallen or imperfect. It just shows that we are human. Indeed they are part of the human experience and without them we are incomplete.

There is nothing in the Bible that says we are fallen. The only place I could find in my NASB about the fall was in Genesis ch. 3 where the paragraph heading was 'The Fall of Man'. But we all know of course that this heading is not part of the Bible. It was only added by the NASB editor. It certainly was not put there by any of the translators because a translator is paid to translate, not to insert his own comments. There really is nothing in the whole Bible that says that man fell in the garden. It is an invention by theologians to make you believe that you are incomplete and that you can only be made complete by believing their doctrines or by accepting their authority over you.

aikido7
October 25th, 2015, 10:41 AM
You can start by reading the passage in question. There are two goats involved. One is sacrificed and one is led into the wilderness by the hand of strong man. Our modern culture mistakenly refers to the scape goat as one that has suffered the less preferable fate of the two and I would suggest a simple reading of the passage sufficient to dispense with that notion at first read. That said, there are things worse than dying. Read the Bible long enough and you will see that this and all other ordinances were prophetic in nature and with a little luck you will spot similarities with them and what shows up later in the Bible. They point to the same things. These two goats and their respective fates are every bit as prophetic as that of the lamb without spot.
My claim is that the gospel writers who wrote 40 to 70 years after Jesus's death used tropes from the Hebrew Bible to help them frame their inspired takes on the life and death of Jesus.

The story of the goat(s) in Barnabas being driven out into the wilderness by using reeds was inserted into the Romans humiliating Jesus with reeds as well.

Once of the things I began doing is learning about the pattern of the Bible as containing different traditions, themes, theologies, etc. There is also evidence how the gospel writers were also inspired to use linguistic forms of their own contemporary literary works, such as the writings of Homer and other famous texts.

Is this what you are talking about here?

Jose Fly
October 25th, 2015, 10:43 AM
From another thread...

Creationists like to argue that evolution can't generate complexity or "genetic information". If you look at the biochemical pathways and structures various pathogens use to inflict disease, they are quite complex. So if the creationists are right and evolution can't create them, what did? God?

quip
October 25th, 2015, 02:26 PM
..... mmmmm ... who's "we?"

You, me and them.

George Affleck
October 25th, 2015, 03:00 PM
Suffering doesn't show that we are fallen or imperfect. It just shows that we are human. Indeed they are part of the human experience and without them we are incomplete.

There is nothing in the Bible that says we are fallen. The only place I could find in my NASB about the fall was in Genesis ch. 3 where the paragraph heading was 'The Fall of Man'. But we all know of course that this heading is not part of the Bible. It was only added by the NASB editor. It certainly was not put there by any of the translators because a translator is paid to translate, not to insert his own comments. There really is nothing in the whole Bible that says that man fell in the garden. It is an invention by theologians to make you believe that you are incomplete and that you can only be made complete by believing their doctrines or by accepting their authority over you.

What superficial and unbiblical views of manís desperate plight we have been coaxed into believing! Christ came here not to help those who are just sick and willing to help themselves, but to do for his people, by miraculous means, what they are totally incapable of doing themselves because they are spiritually dead.

ďTo open the blind eyes, to bring out the prisoners from the prison, and them that sit in darkness out of the prison houseĒ Isa. 42:7KJV.

Note that in Mat 11:25KJV there are those from whom God has hidden the truth and then there are believers who were in such a condition that the truth had to be revealed. All are in the same condition - all blind. Some become saved; some are not.

We are in complete darkness but "...God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ." Without God's intervention, this is a complete impossibility.

"But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned." How does this verse teach anything but total and complete human non-ability unless spiritually regenerated?

The Bible from beginning to end declares that man is totally ruined. He is in a state of guilt and depravity from which he is utterly unable to deliver himself. On the day when Adam fell from grace he began to die physically but died immediately spiritually. He was separated from God by a great gulf which only supernatural regeneration could regain - ye must be born again.

Desert Reign
October 25th, 2015, 04:18 PM
Firstly, as you chose to answer this post instead of the one I first wrote, do you agree then with the first one?


What superficial and unbiblical views of man’s desperate plight we have been coaxed into believing!

Amen bro. I heartily concur. It is a shame that through a lot of church history, theologians assumed that man was evil. Or depraved or whatever. They had nothing of any worth to say about us at all. Still, you and I can fix that now can't we? (After you have searched the scriptures yourself to check what I say of course.)


Christ came here not to help those who are just sick and willing to help themselves, but to do for his people, by miraculous means, what they are totally incapable of doing themselves because they are spiritually dead.Well, I agree with the sentiment. But in point of fact, Christ died not only for his people but for the whole world. So that those who were not his people would be called beloved, the people of the Lord.


“To open the blind eyes, to bring out the prisoners from the prison, and them that sit in darkness out of the prison house” Isa. 42:7KJV.Amen to that again bro.


We are in complete darkness butI am not sure where you got this from. Paul says that God set out the boundaries of the nations so that people might perhaps seek him. And again Peter says that God "accepts from every nation the one who fears him and does what is right." I wouldn't call this complete darkness.


"...God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, Sure. But in its context, Paul is clearly referring to the creation narrative. So obviously there was God's light ever since the creation. All light was God's light. Whether it came from the sun, the moon or the stars.


hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ." Without God's intervention, this is a complete impossibility.I am not sure what you are saying there. It looks like you are saying that God did X. If God had not done X then X would not have happened. It is true but doesn't mean anything.


"But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned." How does this verse teach anything but total and complete human non-ability unless spiritually regenerated?Not all men are 'natural' in the sense being described here. Clearly Cornelius (referred to above) knew nothing of Christ but God still accepted him. The Greek word used is a very particular word (ψυχικὸς) and is not at all the same word as the usual word for natural. When you do something by nature or naturally, it is a different word. The word used here is contrasted with spiritual, so a more modern translation would be fleshly or unspiritual. This verse in no way teaches or implies that man is by nature unable to see God's light.


The Bible from beginning to end declares that man is totally ruined. He is in a state of guilt and depravity from which he is utterly unable to deliver himself. On the day when Adam fell from grace he began to die physically but died immediately spiritually. He was separated from God by a great gulf which only supernatural regeneration could regain - ye must be born again.Well, if you are unable to show any scripture that actually states that man fell, you have an uphill struggle proving this as anything other than just a human idea. I mean, even just a tincy wincy little verse would be adequate. I am not asking for much. Perhaps someone with your knowledge of the Bible can help out here? Your concept of dying spiritually is nowhere to be found in the Old Testament either. Believe me, I have looked high and low for it but it is not there. Unless you can show where it is, I don't think you have anything. It is amazing that what we think of as everyday concepts (for us as Christians) can be just illusions. I'm afraid that the concept of spiritual death in the Old Testament is one such. The fall is another one. But You are welcome to try. I would like to find it. I would like you to show me it. Really. It's just that I haven't ever found it myself. And as I said before, the Bible is there to settle truth from falsity and at the moment I am going with the Bible on this.

Totton Linnet
October 25th, 2015, 05:03 PM
"....if ye being evil know how to give good gifts...."

Desert Reign
October 25th, 2015, 05:18 PM
"....if ye being evil know how to give good gifts...."

Thanks Totty for that incy wincy verse that clearly states that even evil people know how to give good gifts, hence aren't as evil as even they think themselves to be. And I also appreciate the explicit reference to the fall. It's so clear, I just don't know how I missed it before.

glorydaz
October 25th, 2015, 05:23 PM
Thanks Totty for that incy wincy verse that clearly states that even evil people know how to give good gifts, hence aren't as evil as even they think themselves to be. And I also appreciate the explicit reference to the fall. It's so clear, I just don't know how I missed it before.

And they aren't too "dead", either. Yep, Tottie is a gem. :thumb:

Totton Linnet
October 25th, 2015, 05:26 PM
Thanks Totty for that incy wincy verse that clearly states that even evil people know how to give good gifts, hence aren't as evil as even they think themselves to be. And I also appreciate the explicit reference to the fall. It's so clear.

I donno it seems simple to me to then ask "how did they come to be evil?" It seems clear not only from scripture but also history that man is totally incapable of coming at the truth by himself....think how dark Africa was 150 years ago.

Totton Linnet
October 25th, 2015, 05:28 PM
And they aren't too "dead", either. Yep, Tottie is a gem. :thumb:

oh no...DR is being sarcastic...but I forgive him :)

I believe mankind is just as dead as dead can be toward God....helpless

Desert Reign
October 25th, 2015, 05:32 PM
I donno it seems simple to me to then ask "how did they come to be evil?" It seems clear not only from scripture but also history that man is totally incapable of coming at the truth by himself....think how dark Africa was 150 years ago.

Well, the answer is as clear as a bell and can be found in Genesis 6:5. Never mind Africa 150 years ago.


The LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intention of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.
Of course, this was how man was exactly as God created him. God didn't regret that man had fallen. He regretted that he had made him at all:


And the LORD regretted that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him to his heart.
No fall there. Think again.

glorydaz
October 25th, 2015, 05:41 PM
oh no...DR is being sarcastic...but I forgive him :)

I believe mankind is just as dead as dead can be toward God....helpless

Drat...serves me right for not reading all the way through. :sigh:

Totton Linnet
October 25th, 2015, 05:41 PM
@DR 195 He wasn't in the same place with God when God brought to him the animals to see what Adam would call them...he had fallen

Totton Linnet
October 25th, 2015, 05:44 PM
Drat...serves me right for not reading all the way through. :sigh:

:o I got to spread more rep around before giving it to glory....DR thinks Tots is woosie somewhat...a simplistic believer.

Desert Reign
October 25th, 2015, 05:51 PM
:o I got to spread more rep around before giving it to glory....DR thinks Tots is woosie somewhat...a simplistic believer.

Not really. It's just that I don't see how you can call yourself an independent free grace believer. That seems to me to be a contradiction in terms. If you are reliant on grace given freely to you, then that is not what I would call independence...


@DR 195 He wasn't in the same place with God when God brought to him the animals to see what Adam would call them...he had fallen

Oh. You mean he was in Africa?

Totton Linnet
October 25th, 2015, 05:53 PM
Not really. It's just that I don't see how you can call yourself an independent free grace believer. That seems to me to be a contradiction in terms. If you are reliant on grace given freely to you, then that is not what I would call independence...

Independent from other free grace believers...

Totton Linnet
October 25th, 2015, 05:56 PM
Not really. It's just that I don't see how you can call yourself an independent free grace believer. That seems to me to be a contradiction in terms. If you are reliant on grace given freely to you, then that is not what I would call independence...



Oh. You mean he was in Africa?

He sure wasn't in Eden nor was there any way of himself he could get back to his beautiful Garden of abundance.....all the freewill in the world would not avail

ananomyx
October 25th, 2015, 06:19 PM
Suffering doesn't show that we are fallen or imperfect. It just shows that we are human. Indeed they are part of the human experience and without them we are incomplete.

There is nothing in the Bible that says we are fallen. The only place I could find in my NASB about the fall was in Genesis ch. 3 where the paragraph heading was 'The Fall of Man'. But we all know of course that this heading is not part of the Bible. It was only added by the NASB editor. It certainly was not put there by any of the translators because a translator is paid to translate, not to insert his own comments. There really is nothing in the whole Bible that says that man fell in the garden. It is an invention by theologians to make you believe that you are incomplete and that you can only be made complete by believing their doctrines or by accepting their authority over you.

if we are not fallen then are we perfect? If we are not fallen then what are we?
If we are not perfect then at least something must be wrong with us. Fallen is just another word for blemished, or imperfect, or whatever u want to call it. The concept of human imperfection and separation from God is the whole point of the Word of God from the beginning of it to the end. Humans are fallible. And we must ask why is it part of the human experience? You see good can exist without evil, but evil is a corruption of a good thing. We do evil when we twist what is good.
The whole point of Christ coming was to fix what happen at the fall. Humans could never be the perfect standard, Jesus is our perfect example. We never achieve perfection while we are here, but that was never the point. The point is to restore our broken relationship with our creator. And since we are separated from God only accepting Christ's sacrifice and turning from our fallen (sinful) state brings the Holy Spirit, which alone guides us while we are here. But Roman 7 shows us that a battle will exist between our sinful nature and the Spirit.

Desert Reign
October 25th, 2015, 07:15 PM
if we are not fallen then are we perfect? If we are not fallen then what are we?


"That, my boy, is the right question." (I, Robot)

Perfection is a Platonic ideal. It doesn't exist in the real world. Perfection implies that there is a model of human beings somewhere in cyberspace that we must conform to or else there is something wrong with us.

In the real world, we are self-defining. Our only ideal is what we ourselves make.

Now I know that many of you will be throwing fits to hear this, but it is the truth. It is why we are self-determined, not predestinated. Some people call it 'having free will'. I think self-determination is much the better term. It does not mean that God didn't create us. It means that God created us to be free. Freedom of course doesn't mean being independent, as Totty will readily agree but that is why I use the term self-determining. It means that our goals and aspirations are our own, not anyone else's. The human condition is not about falling from an ideal. Such an ideal does not exist and has never existed.

And it is because we are self-determined, that we have such high hopes for humanity and simultaneously such great disappointment in ourselves. And it is because we are self-determined that makes us moral beings, responsible for what we do, whether we do it deliberately, accidentally or indifferently. It is this exact same reason why we also need to be forgiven and why forgiveness is meaningful for us. Forgiveness enables us to change direction.

The point is that this is how God has made us. And this is why he so regretted having made us. I mean, why would he wait for the flood, to be disappointed in us? Why wasn't he disappointed in us right at the start when he made us? The point is that that is what we as self-determining beings became. Now that is a historical fact. It has nothing to do with a fall. It has nothing to do with inheriting 'sinfulness' from Adam (original sin) or being corporately responsible. It has to do with what we became as self-determining beings. Adam was the first and because he was the first to sin, sin entered the world through him. This is what Romans 5 means. It doesn't mean there was something called sin, in the way that there is something called tuberculosis or swine flu, that spread physically around the world. It just means that we each chose to live independently from God and his love. It doesn't even mean that everyone did, just that it was characteristic of humanity. There were people who occasionally chose to serve God and some of these are recorded.

And whilst it is still possible for a person to be essentially righteous, the Gospel brings spiritual power with it. It is more than just an ethic to follow, it is the power to follow that ethic and it is a promise of physical resurrection, the fulfilment of that power and the justification of the choice to be righteous. And this Gospel is exactly what mankind, who in his self-determination has wandered very far from God, needs to bring him close. It is part of God's plan and not just some accident.

I know of course that some people are going to throw a load of scriptures at me seemingly contradicting this, but I just ask that before you do, please consider the logic, the reasoning behind this idea and consider if it is sane instead of jumping on words.

ananomyx
October 25th, 2015, 07:26 PM
so for what did christ die if not to reconcile the fallen back to a relationship with God?

aikido7
October 25th, 2015, 08:23 PM
You can start by reading the passage in question. There are two goats involved. One is sacrificed and one is led into the wilderness by the hand of strong man. Our modern culture mistakenly refers to the scape goat as one that has suffered the less preferable fate of the two and I would suggest a simple reading of the passage sufficient to dispense with that notion at first read. That said, there are things worse than dying. Read the Bible long enough and you will see that this and all other ordinances were prophetic in nature and with a little luck you will spot similarities with them and what shows up later in the Bible. They point to the same things. These two goats and their respective fates are every bit as prophetic as that of the lamb without spot.I use three guides for my exegesis.

1. READ the verse or passage. First, know what is actually IN the Bible.
2. Endeavor to discover what the passage or verse meant to its original authors and to those who first heard it or read it.
3. Use your God-given gifts to apply the underlying message or truth to the world we are living in.

I realize "number 2" is rarely taught from today's clergy or Christian education. I have found it to be essential and has made my appreciation of Christianity much more richer and profound.

For example, reading Jesus's many pronouncements on poverty and income inequality do not tell us at all about the economic system the Roman Empire imposed on its inhabitants.

Recent archaeological efforts have revealed the existence of at least two fish-processing plants built on the shores of Lake Galilee. This fact can give us a little insight as to why some of the local fisherman were bent on following Jesus.

What he offered to them was much more important than making a living for themselves and their families.

aikido7
October 25th, 2015, 08:42 PM
In Matthew, Jesus says That you may be the children of your Father in Heaven. He causes His sun to rise on evil and good....

fzappa13
October 25th, 2015, 09:03 PM
My claim is that the gospel writers who wrote 40 to 70 years after Jesus's death used tropes from the Hebrew Bible to help them frame their inspired takes on the life and death of Jesus.

The story of the goat(s) in Barnabas being driven out into the wilderness by using reeds was inserted into the Romans humiliating Jesus with reeds as well.

Once of the things I began doing is learning about the pattern of the Bible as containing different traditions, themes, theologies, etc. There is also evidence how the gospel writers were also inspired to use linguistic forms of their own contemporary literary works, such as the writings of Homer and other famous texts.

Is this what you are talking about here?

This post is so disconnected from what I wrote as to be utterly unanswerable.

ananomyx
October 25th, 2015, 10:26 PM
"That, my boy, is the right question." (I, Robot)

Perfection is a Platonic ideal. It doesn't exist in the real world. Perfection implies that there is a model of human beings somewhere in cyberspace that we must conform to or else there is something wrong with us.

In the real world, we are self-defining. Our only ideal is what we ourselves make.



also if perfection is only an ideal we each individually make, then what justifies an action as evil.

If someone was to see it as acceptable to be a cannibal or murderer? How can we deem their actions unacceptable unless we can agree there is some kind of REAL REFERENCE POINT to apppeal to.

ananomyx
October 25th, 2015, 10:43 PM
"

And whilst it is still possible for a person to be essentially righteous, the Gospel brings spiritual power with it. It is more than just an ethic to follow, it is the power to follow that ethic and it is a promise of physical resurrection, the fulfilment of that power and the justification of the choice to be righteous. And this Gospel is exactly what mankind, who in his self-determination has wandered very far from God, needs to bring him close. It is part of God's plan and not just some accident.

I know of course that some people are going to throw a load of scriptures at me seemingly contradicting this, but I just ask that before you do, please consider the logic, the reasoning behind this idea and consider if it is sane instead of jumping on words.

so for what did christ die if not to reconcile the fallen back to a relationship with God? Did then Christ die in vain? What does Ephesians 2 say to u? He made us alive who were dead in our trespasses. If we are all free to decide our own ideal what happens to Gods absolute standard as defined in His word (An all powerful, all knowing, all loving God can preserve His Word and message through the ages that explains objective moral principles that aren't created by corrupt people. God is Love. God is Truth. God is light. Jesus is the way, the truth, and the life. The gospel say we are given the Holy Spirit when we genuinely repent and turn from our old "fallen" ways. The Spirit empowers us, but we wrestle with the flesh (fallen selfish nature) till the death, yet we press forward daily and die to self daily and allow the Holy Spirit to guide us according to Gods will not my own fallible one.

George Affleck
October 25th, 2015, 11:01 PM
If God be truely immanent then His existence would be categorically apparent; accepted effortlessly as say, our capacity to feel the very pangs of suffering itself. As such, a life dedicated to ignoring His truth would be justly punished and equally insufferable.

This is quite true in and of itself.


As it stands we exist in total ignorance to any godly existence...

This, however, is not at all the case.

The heavens declare the glory of God. Ps 19:1KJV

For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: Rom 1:20KJV

Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another Rom 2:15KJV

God's Word is in every nightstand in every motel room.

In addition, we have pesky people like me who incessantly tell the world about Jesus.

You have to go out of your way to avoid God.

fzappa13
October 26th, 2015, 12:09 AM
You, me and them.

When discussing what one believes as it concerns God the prudent might be well advised to restrict their observations to themselves. To do otherwise is, at best, both presumptuous and ignorant.

aikido7
October 26th, 2015, 12:44 AM
This post is so disconnected from what I wrote as to be utterly unanswerable. It is fact that the gospels are filled with oblique references to other tropes found in the Bible. And even references to secular ancient writing such as parts of Homer's The Odyssey.

Nice dodge, though. It's curious, isn't it, that you fail to come up with any direct questions of me. It is almost like you are using your judgement of "utterly unanswerable" to get you off the hook for engaging in adult dialogue. You are not as clueless as you pretend to be.

Desert Reign
October 26th, 2015, 05:38 AM
so for what did christ die if not to reconcile the fallen back to a relationship with God?


also if perfection is only an ideal we each individually make, then what justifies an action as evil.

If someone was to see it as acceptable to be a cannibal or murderer? How can we deem their actions unacceptable unless we can agree there is some kind of REAL REFERENCE POINT to apppeal to.

The rightness or wrongness of an action is determined by its own context. If you make a rule about it, the rule can only ever be an extrapolation and will not fit all circumstances. Cannibalism in some (probably now extinct) cultures is not wrong in the culture. Of course killing other human beings merely to eat them is self-defeating but I think if you study cannibalism, you will find that it is more a ritual thing rather than a normal way of life.
But the main point is that morality arises from the context. Reality is like that. Rules of conduct are extrapolations.
And you may ask about the 10 commandments for example - what do we say about them? Well, do you keep the Sabbath? No of course you don't. So you would already admit that the 10 are not absolute. Like everything else they are contextual. 'Do not kill' doesn't apply to war. Doesn't apply to capital punishment, doesn't apply to self-defence. And so on and so on. Reality always throws up exceptions to your formulations because that is the nature of reality. It is self-defining. Rules are an attempt to define what can only be self-defined.
There is no absolute reference point. This is human maturity. To move beyond rules which are for children to an appreciation of life itself, of the reality of the world we are in.


so for what did christ die if not to reconcile the fallen back to a relationship with God? Did then Christ die in vain? What does Ephesians 2 say to u? He made us alive who were dead in our trespasses.

If we were fallen, I am sure that we could either pick ourselves up or else if that were not possible, then God could pick us up. If it were a case of us having a disease, then I am sure the disease could be cured. If it were a case of us having a congenital defect, then I am sure that God could remedy it or else we could remedy it ourselves. I mean we are surely intelligent enough are we not? But that is not the point. We are self-determining beings. And history cannot be rewritten. The simplistic notion that we have fallen from a perfect ideal human existence and only God can pick us up if he predetermines to do so, just doesn't respond to our reality. We were never meant to have an ideal existence. We were intended to be self-determined; we were intended to create our own ideals and make our own homes. This is the glory of God in creation, that he has given us this life. The Calvinistic version of salvation would have us go back to a fixed point in the past and stay there. That would truly be our death. The openness view of salvation is to give us a new future of a redeemed life in Christ.


If we are all free to decide our own ideal what happens to Gods absolute standard as defined in His word (An all powerful, all knowing, all loving God can preserve His Word and message through the ages that explains objective moral principles that aren't created by corrupt people. God is Love. God is Truth. God is light. Jesus is the way, the truth, and the life. The gospel say we are given the Holy Spirit when we genuinely repent and turn from our old "fallen" ways. The Spirit empowers us, but we wrestle with the flesh (fallen selfish nature) till the death, yet we press forward daily and die to self daily and allow the Holy Spirit to guide us according to Gods will not my own fallible one.

Yes, but the idea of holiness being conformity to a fixed ideal is an impossible goal and will always lead to frustration and failure for the reasons I gave. It is simply unattainable. This has nothing to do with us being fallen as the Calvinists would have us believe. It is just logic. It is simply the wrong choice for a goal. The Calvinist goal always entails our failure and that is what they want. They want you to always believe that you are a failure because it keeps you reliant on them. God made us to be self-determined beings and the wonderful thing about salvation is that Jesus, the son, walks with us on the paths we take in the future.

fzappa13
October 26th, 2015, 06:20 AM
It is fact that the gospels are filled with oblique references to other tropes found in the Bible. And even references to secular ancient writing such as parts of Homer's The Odyssey.

Nice dodge, though. It's curious, isn't it, that you fail to come up with any direct questions of me. It is almost like you are using your judgement of "utterly unanswerable" to get you off the hook for engaging in adult dialogue. You are not as clueless as you pretend to be.

I tried to point out the spurious nature of the common understanding of a biblical passage as well as the prophetic nature of it and you respond with this ... that's okay ... I get that all the time.

quip
October 28th, 2015, 12:49 AM
When discussing what one believes as it concerns God the prudent might be well advised to restrict their observations to themselves. To do otherwise is, at best, both presumptuous and ignorant.

Since it seems you've attained some heretofore unrevealed empirical proof of God's ontological status then it only seems fair to share with the rest of the class. Moreover -- if you'd be so inclined -- PLEASE school the ignorant masses' regarding their silly notions of faith as patently false, absurd and redundant....this would be of invaluble service to the entirety of humanity, mayhap ... your spiritual/prophetic duty to reveal.


I eagerly await this monumental revelation! :sinapisN:

(P.S. I didn't discuss what "one believes", I referred to what "one knows" or rather the lack thereof.)

First make sure your own house is clean before sullying up others' with your "presumptuous and ignorant" accusations. Ok? :thumb:

fzappa13
October 28th, 2015, 04:13 AM
Since it seems you've attained some heretofore unrevealed empirical proof of God's ontological status then it only seems fair to share with the rest of the class. Moreover -- if you'd be so inclined -- PLEASE school the ignorant masses' regarding their silly notions of faith as patently false, absurd and redundant....this would be of invaluble service to the entirety of humanity, mayhap ... your spiritual/prophetic duty to reveal.


I eagerly await this monumental revelation! :sinapisN:

(P.S. I didn't discuss what "one believes", I referred to what "one knows" or rather the lack thereof.)

First make sure your own house is clean before sullying up others' with your "presumptuous and ignorant" accusations. Ok? :thumb:

Address what I say and I will respond in kind. Till then :rapture:

Eric h
October 28th, 2015, 05:24 AM
"IF god were real, why would he spend so much time in white America answering the minutia of prayer he receives while leaving so many millions to starve to death or watch their children starve?"



Getting back to the original question, If God created the universe with the purpose of loving each and everyone of us as he loves himself, then presumably, he would not want evil to happen.

He gave us the greatest commandments, to love God, and to love our neighbours as we love ourselves, if we all truly lived by these commandments, then we would not allow children to starve to death.

It seems the evil in this world happens, when we turn away from God, the greatest commandments and his purpose for creation.

Could this really be the greatest purpose to create the universe and life? Can God love us more than he loves himself?

George Affleck
October 28th, 2015, 09:05 AM
I eagerly await this monumental revelation! :sinapisN:



Jesus rose from the dead.

aikido7
October 28th, 2015, 10:55 AM
I tried to point out the spurious nature of the common understanding of a biblical passage as well as the prophetic nature of it and you respond with this ... that's okay ... I get that all the time.But I agree with you. I wasn't trying to "correct" you or make you "wrong."

I like to share my own thoughts, feelings and beliefs.

How can I do that without your feeling ignored or put down? You get those feelings from the way I communicate and I want to change those ways I use if they do not do what I hope they will do.

aikido7
October 28th, 2015, 10:59 AM
Jesus rose from the dead.His power and presence were still available to his followers, even after his death.

This fact was described and re-interpreted in many different ways by the early church. "Taken up," "Sitting at the Right Hand of God," "resurrection," were only a few of the ways the Jesus people used to make the scandal of Jesus's death on the cross meaningful to them.

Thus, the embarrassment and the despair were turned into a triumph.

George Affleck
October 28th, 2015, 10:18 PM
His power and presence were still available to his followers, even after his death.

This fact was described and re-interpreted in many different ways by the early church. "Taken up," "Sitting at the Right Hand of God," "resurrection," were only a few of the ways the Jesus people used to make the scandal of Jesus's death on the cross meaningful to them.

Thus, the embarrassment and the despair were turned into a triumph.

You are talking about fishermen who, you say, became accomplished spin doctors to avoid embarrassment and despair. There's a reality here that you are missing. These guys were not independently wealthy. I don't think there was much money to be had back then for selling Jesus to the Jews. The only payment for supporting the bodily resurrection of Jesus was death.

People will sometimes die for a lie that they believe is the truth. But if the resurrection did not literally happen, the disciples knew it because they lived it. They would not die for a lie that they knew was a lie. They'd just go back to fishing.

Consider Peter. He was all "I never knew the man!" during the arrest and trial. What occurred to make Peter willing to die for Jesus? Was it that he knew Jesus stayed dead?

Christianity sprang from the reality of the resurrection. People who call themselves Christian and do not hold to this essential truth are fooling themselves.

Better take 'Christian' off your profile.
Just trying to save you the "embarrassment and despair".

George Affleck
January 19th, 2016, 05:29 PM
Bump:

Well, seeing as have Christmas behind us, are there any new things we can add to the list we have here about good and evil? Or should we consolidate some of them?

So far we have this:

1. Discriminatory judgements from ignorance cannot be compared to God's perfect discernment regarding skin colour or prayer importance. It is He alone who looks on the heart. Jer 17:10KJV
fishrovmen

2. What is considered suffering in this world is a blink of an eye in comparison to eternity after death. Rom 8:18KJV 1Cor 2:9KJV
patrick jane, glorydaz

3. What logic compels a person to conclude there is no God because some do not worship Him properly? God knows this already. Mat 23:27KJV Ps 51:6KJV
fishrovmen, George Affleck

4. Affliction and hardship is the natural outworking of a broken world and verification that sin is dynamic, real and has permeated every facet of creation. Rom 8:22KJV
6days, George Affleck

5. How much evil/suffering or prayers of "minutia" would need to be eliminated for this question to never be asked? If evil/suffering were completely eliminated and all was good, who would seek God? A faith unable to be tried is no faith at all. 2Ch 33:12KJV Ps 50:15KJV
fishrovmen, George Affleck, fzappa13

6. Although we can learn much, the full answer to why evil/suffering is in the world is wrapped up in the infinite wisdom of God and cannot be fully comprehended or appreciated. It is sufficient to say that God wills righteously what men do wickedly. Is 55:9KJV
MrDeets, PureX, fishrovmen, AMR

7. Although He does not have to, God takes full responsibility for vanquishing evil and comforting suffering in His perfect timing. Matt 25:41KJV Matt 5:4KJV Rev 21:4KJV
George Affleck, AMR

8. Our present "knowledge of good and evil" and the difference between them is what we would expect if the Genesis account is true. Because God is good we are given a standard by which evil can be recognized and condemned. 1 Cor 14:33KJV

9. A knowledge of the languages God chose for revelation reveals that "good" (tov) carries the meaning of functionally created which has a latent potential for interference, if God allows, labelled "evil" (ra'a). These concepts are not individually subjective or personally determined in our modern sense and we are not entitled to criticism by reason of our created existence.
PPS

10. Suffering via evil is an invitation to believers to participate in God's work. It is a proving ground for believers and haters of evil. Jas 2:20KJV
Eric h, George Affleck, 6days

11. Automation provides no option. One cannot truly and freely choose to love God without an option. A love that is commanded is not love. God desires fellowship with His created beings and has repaired the problem that prevented it by grace through faith. Mat 23:37KJV 1 John 4:10KJV
Jamie Gigliotti, fzappa13

PneumaPsucheSoma
January 19th, 2016, 09:55 PM
Bump:

Well, seeing as have Christmas behind us, are there any new things we can add to the list we have here about good and evil? Or should we consolidate some of them?

So far we have this:

1. Discriminatory judgements from ignorance cannot be compared to God's perfect discernment regarding skin colour or prayer importance. It is He alone who looks on the heart. Jer 17:10KJV
fishrovmen

2. What is considered suffering in this world is a blink of an eye in comparison to eternity after death. Rom 8:18KJV 1Cor 2:9KJV
patrick jane, glorydaz

3. What logic compels a person to conclude there is no God because some do not worship Him properly? God knows this already. Mat 23:27KJV Ps 51:6KJV
fishrovmen, George Affleck

4. Affliction and hardship is the natural outworking of a broken world and verification that sin is dynamic, real and has permeated every facet of creation. Rom 8:22KJV
6days, George Affleck

5. How much evil/suffering or prayers of "minutia" would need to be eliminated for this question to never be asked? If evil/suffering were completely eliminated and all was good, who would seek God? A faith unable to be tried is no faith at all. 2Ch 33:12KJV Ps 50:15KJV
fishrovmen, George Affleck, fzappa13

6. Although we can learn much, the full answer to why evil/suffering is in the world is wrapped up in the infinite wisdom of God and cannot be fully comprehended or appreciated. It is sufficient to say that God wills righteously what men do wickedly. Is 55:9KJV
MrDeets, PureX, fishrovmen, AMR

7. Although He does not have to, God takes full responsibility for vanquishing evil and comforting suffering in His perfect timing. Matt 25:41KJV Matt 5:4KJV Rev 21:4KJV
George Affleck, AMR

8. Our present "knowledge of good and evil" and the difference between them is what we would expect if the Genesis account is true. Because God is good we are given a standard by which evil can be recognized and condemned. 1 Cor 14:33KJV

9. A knowledge of the languages God chose for revelation reveals that "good" (tov) carries the meaning of functionally created which has a latent potential for interference, if God allows, labelled "evil" (ra'a). These concepts are not individually subjective or personally determined in our modern sense and we are not entitled to criticism by reason of our created existence.
PPS

10. Suffering via evil is an invitation to believers to participate in God's work. It is a proving ground for believers and haters of evil. Jas 2:20KJV
Eric h, George Affleck, 6days

11. Automation provides no option. One cannot truly and freely choose to love God without an option. A love that is commanded is not love. God desires fellowship with His created beings and has repaired the problem that prevented it by grace through faith. Mat 23:37KJV 1 John 4:10KJV
Jamie Gigliotti, fzappa13

Tov ("good") and ra'a ("evil") are "function" and "dysfunction". The tree of the knowledge (da'ath) of tov and ra'a is knowledge from physical senses.

Ponerology is mistaught, much like most everything else. Ra'a is the onset of dysfunction from sin (hamartia, the noun). Such potentiality for dysfunction was within the functionality, coming from/by negation/privation OF functionality.

George Affleck
January 21st, 2016, 09:10 AM
Tov ("good") and ra'a ("evil") are "function" and "dysfunction". The tree of the knowledge (da'ath) of tov and ra'a is knowledge from physical senses.

Ponerology is mistaught, much like most everything else. Ra'a is the onset of dysfunction from sin (hamartia, the noun). Such potentiality for dysfunction was within the functionality, coming from/by negation/privation OF functionality.

PPS - always nice to know you are around. Your input is invaluable.

How do you understand the difference between the types or qualities of knowledge pre/post fall based on that linguistic information? Should we say that knowledge from the physical senses was interfered with?

fzappa13
January 21st, 2016, 10:19 AM
But I agree with you. I wasn't trying to "correct" you or make you "wrong."

I like to share my own thoughts, feelings and beliefs.

How can I do that without your feeling ignored or put down? You get those feelings from the way I communicate and I want to change those ways I use if they do not do what I hope they will do.

I wouldn't be overly concerned if I were you. I've studied the Bible more than most and I did so without "supervision". Needless to say, as a result, I see what it says in a little different light than your average doctrinal acolyte. As a result I often try and throw hints out there as to what I have seen that are, as often as not, ineffective. The tale of the "'scape goat" is a case in point.

Western culture has completely flipped the meaning of this term. The "scape goat" is the one that escapes whereas his partner meets a much less pleasant fate. As with all biblical ordinances, this too has prophetic significance that escapes most (pun intended). In my opinion these two goats are prophetic signposts that foretell the events spoken of in Rev 12.

PneumaPsucheSoma
January 21st, 2016, 11:03 AM
PPS - always nice to know you are around. Your input is invaluable.

How do you understand the difference between the types or qualities of knowledge pre/post fall based on that linguistic information? Should we say that knowledge from the physical senses was interfered with?

Prior to the Edenic encounter with the serpent, there was constant external communion with the Father by the Holy Spirit. In Greek terms, this is oida, which is spiritual intuitive knowledge.

Since death (thanatos) is overarchingly "the cessation of communion with environment of origin"; then spiritual death and physical death are distinct. Spiritual life is constant communion with God. That was abrogated as Eve began communing with the serpent and there was hearing of another Word (Rhema) for another faith.

This spiritual death inevitably and immediately resulted in sin (the noun). Hamartia (sin) is from a- (no/not) and -meros (share/part). As a noun, hamartia is the missing share or part of God's standard as righteousness for both character (inner) and conduct (outer).

With the onset of spiritual death (thanatos is NEVER annihilation or eradication or extinction), God's righteousness could no longer be communed to man by external means, the result of which was all character and conduct being contrary to God's righteousness.

The fruit was from the tree of PHYSICAL SENSES knowledge, making human thought and will subject to the outer interaction with the created realm rather than the inner interaction at the inner man level.

The outer man, via the flesh and its senses, became the superordinate functionality for man and subordinating the spiritual. Man's constitution was functionally inverted from inside-out knowledge to outside-in knowledge. The origin of the body (the dust of the cosmos) became preeminent over the Spirit of God as the means of all experience and intuition.

The "wrong" tree had fruit with was tov (good/functional), but is NOT the tree of life and is NOT by internal spiritual knowledge via God's Spirit in constant communion.

This separation and dysfunctionalizing can only be restored by the individial human spirit being resurrected from within. This was the redemptive purpose of the Son becoming flesh, taking upon Himself the schema (outer form) of a servant and humanity in His nature (physis) to be the last Adam, a quickening spirit in the resurrection and ascension as the first-born from the dead and of many brethren.

That resurrection for us was ministered beginning at Pentecost. The ontology of the Believer comes from reckoning the old outer man crucified with Christ and dead by faith, with the inner man translated into Christ. Having put on Christ (His prosopon) and putting off the old man (our prosopon), the Believer's hypostasis (underlying sub-standing reality and existence) is seated in heavenly places in Christ Jesus, as we live and move and have our being in Him.

This resurrection restored spiritual life and abrogates the spiritual death into which all of mankind is born and consequently sin (the noun) is the condition (in both the nature and the members of the body, the latter of which commits sin as a verb).

Gnosis (knowledge) is experiential knowledge. Oida (knowledge) is spiritual intuitive knowledge. The latter is not truly again interactively functional until being born from above by the Spirit and one's hypostatic union with the Son.

The mind/will faculties are within the nature (physis) of the being (ousia). The emotion/desire faculties are within the body (soma) and its physical systems. The functionalities of mind/will and emotion/desire are conjoined to the hypostasis. In this manner, sin (the noun) is the condition and function from both our nature (physis) and the members of our body (soma).

Unless we are resurrected from within and born from above to be hypostatically translated into Christ, we can never have spiritual life again.

It is the physical senses knowledge that drives our old man to maintain its preeminence and superordinance of function and dysfunction rather than eating of the tree of life. And the tov of the wrong tree is mistaken as functionality because it IS functional. This is the false "good" of physical sense knowledge, including calculating and measuring to presume to know all things by sensory perceptions.

Modern Empiricism and Scientism have emerged in modernity to displace intuitive knowledge of the Spirit within man as the primary functionality. It's tov ("good"), but from the wrong tree. It's supposed to be the subordinate knowledge and functionality, but it became superordinate and preeminent at the Edenic encounter with the lie and the Father of it.

And the church-at-large is too busy putting new wine (the Holy Spirit) in the old wineskins (the old man) to even notice they've burst from doing so, and contain no real substance.

1Mind1Spirit
January 22nd, 2016, 08:36 PM
Prior to the Edenic encounter with the serpent, there was constant external communion with the Father by the Holy Spirit.

This is a false premise, niether Adam nor Eve had constant communion with the Holy Spirit.

Holy men of old prophesied as they were moved by the Holy Spirit.

2 Peter 1:21
For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

We know Adam prophesied, and did it before the encounter with the serpent.

Genesis 2:24
Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.

So we know Adam was a prophet as Christ confirmed.

Luke 1:70
As he spake by the mouth of his holy prophets, which have been since the world began:


What you are trying to claim is that Adam had something that none of the other prophets had.

That is the ability to intuit the time and the manner of time the words of the prophecy signified.

Adam didn't know anymore than the rest, his mind also had to search.

1 Peter 1:11
Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.


In Greek terms, this is oida, which is spiritual intuitive knowledge.

No, oida is what man, the first Adam, can imagine.

The first Adam was made earthy, subject to vanity, not heavenly.



Since death (thanatos) is overarchingly "the cessation of communion with environment of origin";

Adam's environment of origin was the earth.

When did Adam ever stop communing with it?



then spiritual death and physical death are distinct.

You have yet to prove Adam had spiritual life which by the way is eternal life.

If Adam had not yet eaten from the tree of eternal life how did he die an eternal death?


Spiritual life is constant communion with God.

Constant communion with God is not the ability to imagine what it is.



That was abrogated as Eve began communing with the serpent and there was hearing of another Word (Rhema) for another faith.

We definitely see Eve's oida at play here.

Imagining the fruit could make her wise.



This spiritual death inevitably and immediately resulted in sin (the noun). Hamartia (sin) is from a- (no/not) and -meros (share/part). As a noun, hamartia is the missing share or part of God's standard as righteousness for both character (inner) and conduct (outer).

Adam believed that what God said would come to pass.

His ability to act righteously upon this belief was missing.

A missing ability is in no wise a noun in any language.



With the onset of spiritual death (thanatos is NEVER annihilation or eradication or extinction), God's righteousness could no longer be communed to man by external means, the result of which was all character and conduct being contrary to God's righteousness.

The son of God walked and talked with him from outside his body.

Your idea of external is inverted from your opening post onward.



The fruit was from the tree of PHYSICAL SENSES knowledge, making human thought and will subject to the outer interaction with the created realm rather than the inner interaction at the inner man level.

No, the very act of eating the fruit shows that Adam's soul and spirit were already subject to the senses of his body's interaction with the external world around him.



The outer man, via the flesh and its senses, became the superordinate functionality for man and subordinating the spiritual. Man's constitution was functionally inverted from inside-out knowledge to outside-in knowledge.

Once again, this was the state of Adam from the beginning.



The origin of the body (the dust of the cosmos) became preeminent over the Spirit of God as the means of all experience and intuition.

No, God subjected Adam to his body when he made him.



The "wrong" tree had fruit with was tov (good/functional), but is NOT the tree of life and is NOT by internal spiritual knowledge via God's Spirit in constant communion.

I'll buy that.




This separation and dysfunctionalizing can only be restored by the individial human spirit being resurrected from within. This was the redemptive purpose of the Son becoming flesh, taking upon Himself the schema (outer form) of a servant and humanity in His nature (physis) to be the last Adam, a quickening spirit in the resurrection and ascension as the first-born from the dead and of many brethren.

Nope, this is speculation from your false opening statement.


That resurrection for us was ministered beginning at Pentecost. The ontology of the Believer comes from reckoning the old outer man crucified with Christ and dead by faith, with the inner man translated into Christ. Having put on Christ (His prosopon) and putting off the old man (our prosopon), the Believer's hypostasis (underlying sub-standing reality and existence) is seated in heavenly places in Christ Jesus, as we live and move and have our being in Him.

No, what happened to the Apostles and those they preached to was an example of the operation of God that happens in every believer.

We do not live and move and have our being in Christ.

All of us including Christ live and move and have our being in God.

The idolatrous Athenians were told that they were the offspring of God before believing in Christ.



This resurrection restored spiritual life and abrogates the spiritual death into which all of mankind is born and consequently sin (the noun) is the condition (in both the nature and the members of the body, the latter of which commits sin as a verb).

Here you have the invisible nature as a noun.

I know you hate English but this is taking it a bit far, dontcha think?



Gnosis (knowledge) is experiential knowledge. Oida (knowledge) is spiritual intuitive knowledge. The latter is not truly again interactively functional until being born from above by the Spirit and one's hypostatic union with the Son.

There is no again being interactively functional.

Adam spoke as he was moved by the Holy Spirit, not had a lucky guess intuited out of his imagination.



The mind/will faculties are within the nature (physis) of the being (ousia). The emotion/desire faculties are within the body (soma) and its physical systems. The functionalities of mind/will and emotion/desire are conjoined to the hypostasis. In this manner, sin (the noun) is the condition and function from both our nature (physis) and the members of our body (soma).

Sorry, but that's not how the spirit, soul and body interact.



Unless we are resurrected from within and born from above to be hypostatically translated into Christ, we can never have spiritual life again.

There is no again.



It is the physical senses knowledge that drives our old man to maintain its preeminence and superordinance of function and dysfunction rather than eating of the tree of life. And the tov of the wrong tree is mistaken as functionality because it IS functional. This is the false "good" of physical sense knowledge, including calculating and measuring to presume to know all things by sensory perceptions.

Welcome to a little understanding of the first Adam.



Modern Empiricism and Scientism have emerged in modernity to displace intuitive knowledge of the Spirit within man as the primary functionality. It's tov ("good"), but from the wrong tree. It's supposed to be the subordinate knowledge and functionality, but it became superordinate and preeminent at the Edenic encounter with the lie and the Father of it.

Nope, the imagination of man is alive and thriving in those areas.



And the church-at-large is too busy putting new wine (the Holy Spirit) in the old wineskins (the old man) to even notice they've burst from doing so, and contain no real substance.

No, it is impossible for man to put the Holy Spirit anywhere.

However man generally thinks he has more of it than he does.:)

PneumaPsucheSoma
January 25th, 2016, 02:58 AM
This is a false premise, niether Adam nor Eve had constant communion with the Holy Spirit.

Holy men of old prophesied as they were moved by the Holy Spirit.

2 Peter 1:21
For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

We know Adam prophesied, and did it before the encounter with the serpent.

Genesis 2:24
Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.

So we know Adam was a prophet as Christ confirmed.

Luke 1:70
As he spake by the mouth of his holy prophets, which have been since the world began:


What you are trying to claim is that Adam had something that none of the other prophets had.

That is the ability to intuit the time and the manner of time the words of the prophecy signified.

Adam didn't know anymore than the rest, his mind also had to search.

1 Peter 1:11
Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.

No, oida is what man, the first Adam, can imagine.

The first Adam was made earthy, subject to vanity, not heavenly.

Adam's environment of origin was the earth.

When did Adam ever stop communing with it?

You have yet to prove Adam had spiritual life which by the way is eternal life.

If Adam had not yet eaten from the tree of eternal life how did he die an eternal death?

Constant communion with God is not the ability to imagine what it is.

We definitely see Eve's oida at play here.

Imagining the fruit could make her wise.

Adam believed that what God said would come to pass.

His ability to act righteously upon this belief was missing.

A missing ability is in no wise a noun in any language.

The son of God walked and talked with him from outside his body.

Your idea of external is inverted from your opening post onward.

No, the very act of eating the fruit shows that Adam's soul and spirit were already subject to the senses of his body's interaction with the external world around him.

Once again, this was the state of Adam from the beginning.

No, God subjected Adam to his body when he made him.

I'll buy that.

Nope, this is speculation from your false opening statement.

No, what happened to the Apostles and those they preached to was an example of the operation of God that happens in every believer.

We do not live and move and have our being in Christ.

All of us including Christ live and move and have our being in God.

The idolatrous Athenians were told that they were the offspring of God before believing in Christ.

Here you have the invisible nature as a noun.

I know you hate English but this is taking it a bit far, dontcha think?

There is no again being interactively functional.

Adam spoke as he was moved by the Holy Spirit, not had a lucky guess intuited out of his imagination.

Sorry, but that's not how the spirit, soul and body interact.

There is no again.

Welcome to a little understanding of the first Adam.

Nope, the imagination of man is alive and thriving in those areas.

No, it is impossible for man to put the Holy Spirit anywhere.

However man generally thinks he has more of it than he does.:)


No. Unfortunately you understand virtually nothing about any part of anything. No valid hermeneutics, exegesis, or lexicography in translation or application.

Seriously. Nothing.

quip
January 27th, 2016, 01:34 PM
No. Unfortunately you understand virtually nothing about any part of anything.

Seriously. Nothing.

/thread? :idunno:

1Mind1Spirit
January 28th, 2016, 10:47 AM
No valid hermeneutics, exegesis, or lexicography in translation or application.

Seriously. Nothing.

Everybody has to occupy their time somehow while waiting on understanding.

Me, I worked with my hands.

:)

MichaelCadry
January 30th, 2016, 04:44 AM
"IF god were real, why would he spend so much time in white America answering the minutia of prayer he receives while leaving so many millions to starve to death or watch their children starve?"

This is a quote from MrDeets blogpost (http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/blog.php?b=2456) which seems to me to be the essence of a long unanswered difficulty he struggled with. This is a reasonable question and a real issue for many and can be used effectively by Satan if left unanswered.

I encourage all serious, biblical/theological input.


Dear George A,

Hey Buddy!! It's been awhile! I thought I'd post here about this, if I may. America, believe it or not, is a overflowing pot of tons of people with Israeli blood in them, from England, Spain, Italy, Russia, Greece, France, etc. The ten tribes were cast out of Israel and sojourned/traveled very far as time went on, heading west from Israel. Always heading from east to west, which is what Jesus will do when He returns. I don't have any Chinese or Japanese, or Vietnamese blood in me. No German also, that I know of. The different ten tribes probably had blood in them from the tribes of Judah and Benjamin also. By the time they got to England, Ireland, Scotland, France, the horny ten tribes of Israel had intermingled sexually with each other and with every country they migrated to. Maids and husbandmen from other countries having sex and children, with different ancestries. Children over and over with different blood mixtures. And then England sent over three ships of people with tons of blood mixtures in them, including the ten tribes of Israel, and no doubt, a lot of the other countries that I listed. Horny young men and women not caring who had whose blood in them or ancestry, just made babies who were real 'mutts.'

And then they also intermingled with the Indians when they got here. I have part Cherokee in me and all 12 tribes of Israel in me, which I was told, and also English, Irish, Scottish, and Arabic Lebanese on my Dad's side. I'm the weirdest mutt ever. Much of the Israeli blood came from the Great Britain in me. Arab and Israeli blood in one stick. And my Dad, who was Muslim at the time, let my Mom have her way and let me be named Michael instead of Mohamed after my grandfather; and let my Mom raise us kids as Christians instead of Muslim like my Dad. When Dad's relatives (sisters and mother) came pulling up in our driveway unannounced every time, we had to scatter and hide the church bulletins and leaflets, and Bibles fast so they would not see them. This went on for years. But we went to church every Sunday. I also played organ a couple times in church, and I sang in the choir, and was the only one asked to do a solo at Christmastime. Ah, I will keep this short.

America is Israel's melting pot. Like a large nation of many of people who had an assortment of Israeli blood in them intermingled with many other different countries, even Portugal and Germany!! Why do you think we are/'were' such close allies? I'm just saying that we are almost all mutts! Servants and owners having sex in the parlors and sheds, in the fields of tall grass... everywhere. Not caring what blood they had in them. It happened constantly. Let's face it. It happens now just as much. We are so interbred, it is awesome if we only could trace our blood all the way back to Israel. We are a 'mini' Israel that is a 'maxi' Israel mixed with the blood of the nations. Even Scandinavians: Finland, Sweden, Norway, etc.!! The Lord told me that I had all 12 tribes of Israel in my blood mixed rarely with Indian Cherokee blood, and all on my Mom's side. She was born in Kentucky and was a bit of a hillbilly too. But that is not a matter of ancestry. But then, my Dad, being Lebanese. I had Israeli and Arab blood in me. Back then, it could have been a first. I'm figuring that now, a number of Lebanese and Israelis have had sex with each other. Call me wrong?? America is a big melting pot!! A real fondue!! Okay, I've got to get going. It is almost 4am. I'm so tired and have to get some sleep. God's Love To You All {And Mine Too!!}.

Michael

:cloud9: :angel: :angel: :angel: :cloud9:

Clete
January 30th, 2016, 09:51 AM
"IF god were real, why would he spend so much time in white America answering the minutia of prayer he receives while leaving so many millions to starve to death or watch their children starve?"

This is a quote from MrDeets blogpost (http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/blog.php?b=2456) which seems to me to be the essence of a long unanswered difficulty he struggled with. This is a reasonable question and a real issue for many and can be used effectively by Satan if left unanswered.

I encourage all serious, biblical/theological input.
It is the Augustinian (i.e. Catholics and Calvinists) who believe God has predestined everything that have no answer for the problem of evil.

Evil and its consequences is our fault (and Satan's) not God's. The fact is that man is evil and thus the world is hostile and deadly.

God could end it, if He chose to do so and in fact He will do precisely that eventually. In the interim, all of mankind has the opportunity to repent of their sin and turn to God for the salvation of their eternal soul. 10,000 years from now, no one will hardly remember nor want to recall our physical lives, neither how they were lived nor how they ended. Thus God's withheld judgment of this world is a mercy, not a curse.


Romans 8:18 For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.


Resting in Him,
Clete

ttruscott
January 31st, 2016, 04:20 PM
It is the Augustinian (i.e. Catholics and Calvinists) who believe God has predestined everything that have no answer for the problem of evil.

Predestination does not destroy the answer to the problem of evil...if we are predestined AFTER our choice to become evil in HIS sight.

IF we all are sinful by our own true free will decision to rebel against HIS deity or HIS plan for us in Sheol before the creation of the world, then our predestined lives here on earth could be in accord with our choices pre-earth and reflect our free will and thus the evil nature we chose then is represented in the world as the evil we do.

Clete
January 31st, 2016, 09:18 PM
Predestination does not destroy the answer to the problem of evil...if we are predestined AFTER our choice to become evil in HIS sight.
You can't get all the way through your first sentence with contradicting yourself.


IF we all are sinful by our own true free will decision to rebel against HIS deity or HIS plan for us in Sheol before the creation of the world, then our predestined lives here on earth could be in accord with our choices pre-earth and reflect our free will and thus the evil nature we chose then is represented in the world as the evil we do.
You didn't exist before you existed, Mr. Scott!

And neither Augustinian nor Calvinist doctrine teaches anything similar to what you are suggesting anyway. They teach this...


“The devil, and the whole train of the ungodly, are in all directions, held in by the hand of God as with a bridle, so that they can neither conceive any mischief, nor plan what they have conceived, nor how muchsoever they may have planned, move a single finger to perpetrate, unless in so far as he permits, nay unless in so far as he commands, that they are not only bound by his fetters but are even forced to do him service” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 1, Chapter 17, Paragraph 11)

And a thousand other similar things that render God the author of everything that happens - including every evil act ever committed or even thought of in the minds of men or devils.

Resting in Him,
Clete

George Affleck
February 2nd, 2016, 10:44 PM
It is the Augustinian (i.e. Catholics and Calvinists) who believe God has predestined everything that have no answer for the problem of evil.

Evil and its consequences is our fault (and Satan's) not God's. The fact is that man is evil and thus the world is hostile and deadly.

God could end it, if He chose to do so and in fact He will do precisely that eventually. In the interim, all of mankind has the opportunity to repent of their sin and turn to God for the salvation of their eternal soul. 10,000 years from now, no one will hardly remember nor want to recall our physical lives, neither how they were lived nor how they ended. Thus God's withheld judgment of this world is a mercy, not a curse.


Romans 8:18 For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.


Resting in Him,
Clete

How do you understand this verse?

Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? Rom 9:21KJV

Clete
February 3rd, 2016, 07:31 AM
How do you understand this verse?

Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? Rom 9:21KJV

Romans 9 is Jeremiah 18 applied to the nation of Israel.

fzappa13
February 3rd, 2016, 07:59 AM
(Thumbs through Bible) Romans 9 ... mmmmm ... Romans 9 ... Romans ... ah, yes. Here we are:


Rom 9:8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

Zeke
February 3rd, 2016, 09:11 AM
(Thumbs through Bible) Romans 9 ... mmmmm ... Romans 9 ... Romans ... ah, yes. Here we are:


Rom 9:8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

The thoughts of the mind become it's children that reflect their fathers mentality Ephesians 2:1-3 Luke 9:54-55, Romans nine is introverted back in seven as well as Galatians 4:23-28, both show this isn't to be separated from our own conscience if we are using the word in its spiritual intent which is always concerning our own house divided/veiled 2Cor 3:6 the literal letter is that veil that warps the intent when observed as building kingdoms temples with hands Luke 17:20-21.

fzappa13
February 3rd, 2016, 09:33 AM
The thoughts of the mind become it's children that reflect their fathers mentality Ephesians 2:1-3 Luke 9:54-55, Romans nine is introverted back in seven as well as Galatians 4:23-28, both show this isn't to be separated from our own conscience if we are using the word in its spiritual intent which is always concerning our own house divided/veiled 2Cor 3:6 the literal letter is that veil that warps the intent when observed as building kingdoms temples with hands Luke 17:20-21.

I'm going to have to chew on that one for a while.

George Affleck
February 3rd, 2016, 07:42 PM
Romans 9 is Jeremiah 18 applied to the nation of Israel.

In that case, which group is Paul referring to as the vessel unto honour and which unto dishonour?

George Affleck
February 11th, 2016, 08:55 PM
Well that really closed down the discussion

patrick jane
February 11th, 2016, 09:34 PM
Well that really closed down the discussion

Paul was a chosen vessel Acts 9:15 KJV -