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Robert Pate
October 14th, 2015, 07:58 AM
There is not one scripture in the whole bible about anyone being predestinated to heaven or to hell. If everything and everybody has been reconciled unto God by Jesus Christ then who needs to be predestinated?

Look at the scriptures that teach God has reconciled us, all things, enemies of the cross, the whole world, unto himself by Jesus Christ. Which is the Gospel.

" And all things are of God, who has reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ" 2 Corinthians 5:18.

"To wit, that God was in Christ reconciling the world unto himself" 2 Corinthians 5:19.

"And having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him (Jesus) to reconcile all things unto himself" Colossians 1:20.

"And you that were sometimes alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now has he reconciled" Colossians 1:21.

"And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby" Ephesians 2:16.

These scriptures say that... us, the world, all things, enemies of the cross, all have been reconciled unto God by Jesus Christ. God now sees ALL THINGS in his Son Jesus Christ. Are you able to comprehend that? No one needs to be predestinated.

This can only mean one thing and that is that salvation is by grace through faith, plus nothing.

The only thing that God asks of us is that we believe and have faith in his Son Jesus Christ. When we do that, then we have received God's offer to be reconciled unto him. Paul said, "Be ye reconciled unto God" 2 Corinthians 5:20.

NickCharles
October 14th, 2015, 07:59 AM
“For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.”
**Romans‬ *8:29-30‬ *KJV‬‬
http://bible.com/1/rom.8.29-30.kjv

NickCharles
October 14th, 2015, 08:03 AM
“But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:”
**2 Thessalonians‬ *2:13‬ *KJV‬‬
http://bible.com/1/2th.2.13.kjv

beloved57
October 14th, 2015, 08:05 AM
Pate


Reconciliation Cancels Out the Doctrine of Predestination

False invalid statement, for those Reconciled to God while they are enemies Rom 5:10 are the Ones He Predestinated to be conformed to the Image of His Son Rom 8:29-30

29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

Robert Pate
October 14th, 2015, 08:07 AM
“For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.”
**Romans‬ *8:29-30‬ *KJV‬‬
http://bible.com/1/rom.8.29-30.kjv

Predestinated to be conformed to the image of his Son.

Those that were predestinated to be conformed to the image of his Son were also called.

Those that were predestinated to be conformed to the image of his Son were also justified and glorified.

NOTHING ABOUT ANYONE BEING PREDESTINATED TO ETERNAL LIFE.

Robert Pate
October 14th, 2015, 08:09 AM
Pate



False invalid statement, for those Reconciled to God while they are enemies Rom 5:10 are the Ones He Predestinated to be conformed to the Image of His Son Rom 8:29-30

29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

NOTHING ABOUT ANYONE BEING PREDESTINATED TO ETERNAL LIFE.

Robert Pate
October 14th, 2015, 08:12 AM
“But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:”
**2 Thessalonians‬ *2:13‬ *KJV‬‬
http://bible.com/1/2th.2.13.kjv

God chose all of humanity in Jesus Christ, Romans 5:6-8.

NickCharles
October 14th, 2015, 08:13 AM
Predestinated to be conformed to the image of his Son.



Those that were predestinated to be conformed to the image of his Son were also called.



Those that were predestinated to be conformed to the image of his Son were also justified and glorified.



NOTHING ABOUT ANYONE BEING PREDESTINATED TO ETERNAL LIFE.


Glorification is eternal life.

NickCharles
October 14th, 2015, 08:13 AM
God chose all of humanity in Jesus Christ, Romans 5:6-8.


You didn't deal with the text I posted. Which isn't surprising anymore.

Robert Pate
October 14th, 2015, 08:15 AM
You bozo's think that scripture cancels out scripture.

You also believe that there is something wrong with the Bible and that it needs to be re-written by John calvin.

Robert Pate
October 14th, 2015, 08:16 AM
You didn't deal with the text I posted. Which isn't surprising anymore.

Of course I did. You just didn't like the responce.

Robert Pate
October 14th, 2015, 08:18 AM
Glorification is eternal life.

Of course it is.

All that are conformed to the image of God's Son receive eternal life.

NickCharles
October 14th, 2015, 08:31 AM
Of course it is.



All that are conformed to the image of God's Son receive eternal life.


Right. And only those who are conformed are those He foreknew.

Robert Pate
October 14th, 2015, 08:42 AM
Right. And only those who are conformed are those He foreknew.

The word "Foreknew" or "Foreknow" is tricky because it has more than one meaning.

It can also mean bringing into a special relationship with. Such as... "Adam knew his wife Eve" Genesis 4:1.

"I know my sheep" John 10:14.

"I never knew you" Matthew 7:23.

NickCharles
October 14th, 2015, 08:43 AM
The word "Foreknew" or "Foreknow" is tricky because it has more than one meaning.



It can also mean bringing into a special relationship with. Such as... "Adam knew his wife Eve" Genesis 4:1.



"I know my sheep" John 10:14.



"I never knew you" Matthew 7:23.


Exactly.

Robert Pate
October 14th, 2015, 08:51 AM
Exactly.

This is what 2 Corinthians 5:18, 19. is talking about.

"God has reconciled (made peace) with the whole world through Jesus Christ".

We become reconciled unto God by faith in his Son Jesus Christ.

NickCharles
October 14th, 2015, 08:54 AM
This is what 2 Corinthians 5:18, 19. is talking about.



"God has reconciled (made peace) with the whole world through Jesus Christ".



We become reconciled unto God by faith in his Son Jesus Christ.


What does that have to do with foreknew?

Cedarbay
October 14th, 2015, 09:39 AM
What does that have to do with foreknew?Nick:

Would you give some time to clarify how foreknowledge is distinguished from predestination and election?

Would you agree that God's divine counsel is eternal, AND that His counsel is timeless? I know it was helpful to me to understand that God and His counsel act with a temporal beginning and end.

So, when carrying out His decrees, He is living and active and moving, eternally, without change.

NickCharles
October 14th, 2015, 09:49 AM
Nick:



Would you give some time to clarify how foreknowledge is distinguished from predestination and election?



Would you agree that God's divine counsel is eternal, AND that His counsel is timeless? I know it was helpful to me to understand that God and His counsel act with a temporal beginning and end.



So, when carrying out His decrees, He is living and active and moving, eternally, without change.


The passage talks about those He foreknew. Think Jeremiah 1:5

"Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, and before you were born I consecrated you; I appointed you a prophet to the nations." - Jeremiah 1:5

He foreknew Jeremiah. So in Romans 8, He predestines those He foreknows to be conformed to the image of Christ.

So election and foreknowledge run hand in hand. He elects those He foreknows, and those are predestined to be conformed.

beloved57
October 14th, 2015, 10:29 AM
NOTHING ABOUT ANYONE BEING PREDESTINATED TO ETERNAL LIFE.

You ignored what the scriptures does say!

Brother Ducky
October 14th, 2015, 10:32 AM
NOTHING ABOUT ANYONE BEING PREDESTINATED TO ETERNAL LIFE.

So, are you holding to an interpretive method that says that if the words of predestinated to heaven or hell are not in the text, the text can not possibly mean that one is indeed predestined to one or the other?

If that is the case, why do you hold to the doctrine of the re-imputation of sins, when that doctrine is not mentioned once, and additionally there is not a single unambiguous verse that can be taken to mean anything of the sort?

beloved57
October 14th, 2015, 10:32 AM
Glorification is eternal life.

Yes! So is conformity to the Image of Christ, which the ELECT were Predestinated to Rom 8:28-30!

Brother Ducky
October 14th, 2015, 10:37 AM
This is what 2 Corinthians 5:18, 19. is talking about.

"God has reconciled (made peace) with the whole world through Jesus Christ".

We become reconciled unto God by faith in his Son Jesus Christ.

If we become reconciled to God by faith in Christ, and if the whole world is reconciled to God, does it not follow that the whole world has faith in Jesus Christ?

Robert Pate
October 14th, 2015, 10:38 AM
The passage talks about those He foreknew. Think Jeremiah 1:5

"Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, and before you were born I consecrated you; I appointed you a prophet to the nations." - Jeremiah 1:5

He foreknew Jeremiah. So in Romans 8, He predestines those He foreknows to be conformed to the image of Christ.

So election and foreknowledge run hand in hand. He elects those He foreknows, and those are predestined to be conformed.


God foreknows every human being born on the face of the earth.

Does he know if they will accept his Son Jesus Christ?

He makes salvation available to all.

Robert Pate
October 14th, 2015, 10:40 AM
If we become reconciled to God by faith in Christ, and if the whole world is reconciled to God, does it not follow that the whole world has faith in Jesus Christ?

God has reconciled the whole world unto himself by Jesus Christ and in doing so has made salvation available to all.

NickCharles
October 14th, 2015, 10:40 AM
God foreknows every human being born on the face of the earth.



Does he know if they will accept his Son Jesus Christ?



He makes salvation available to all.


Then you have a real issue with Romans 8:28-30. In fact, you should redact it from your bible. It specifically says, with no ambiguity, that God predestines those He foreknows to be conformed to the image of His Son.

NickCharles
October 14th, 2015, 10:42 AM
God has reconciled the whole world unto himself by Jesus Christ and in doing so has made salvation available to all.


Why not address his post instead of just repeating the same thing over and over as if that's an actual rebuttal?

Robert Pate
October 14th, 2015, 10:47 AM
Then you have a real issue with Romans 8:28-30. In fact, you should redact it from your bible. It specifically says, with no ambiguity, that God predestines those He foreknows to be conformed to the image of His Son.


There is NOTHING in Romans 8:28-30 that says God has predestinated anyone to heaven or to hell.

Its about being predestinated to the image of God's Son.

You are desparate to believe John Calvin's lies.

Reconciliation cancels out predestination. No one needs to be predestinated if they have been reconciled to God.

Robert Pate
October 14th, 2015, 10:49 AM
If we become reconciled to God by faith in Christ, and if the whole world is reconciled to God, does it not follow that the whole world has faith in Jesus Christ?

Not all have faith in Christ because not all want to be reconciled unto God.

NickCharles
October 14th, 2015, 10:51 AM
There is NOTHING in Romans 8:28-30 that says God has predestinated anyone to heaven or to hell.



Its about being predestinated to the image of God's Son.



You are desparate to believe John Calvin's lies.



Reconciliation cancels out predestination. No one needs to be predestinated if they have been reconciled to God.


So then in your view, since everyone is foreknown, then everyone is predestined to be conformed to the image of Christ. And everyone who is predestined is also called. And they are then justified. And glorified.

Congrats. You are a universalist.

NickCharles
October 14th, 2015, 10:52 AM
Not all have faith in Christ because not all want to be reconciled unto God.


But you said God reconciled the whole world. Which is it?

Robert Pate
October 14th, 2015, 11:31 AM
But you said God reconciled the whole world. Which is it?

The reconciliation is not yours if you don't receive it.

NickCharles
October 14th, 2015, 11:35 AM
The reconciliation is not yours if you don't receive it.


How can I be sure you understand scripture when you cannot understand simple questions?

beloved57
October 14th, 2015, 12:19 PM
The reconciliation is not yours if you don't receive it.

False comment !

Robert Pate
October 14th, 2015, 02:42 PM
But you said God reconciled the whole world. Which is it?

No, the Bible says that.

As far as God is concerned sin, death and the devil has been destroyed.

To bad that you can't believe that.

NickCharles
October 14th, 2015, 02:59 PM
No, the Bible says that.



As far as God is concerned sin, death and the devil has been destroyed.



To bad that you can't believe that.


You said God reconciled the whole world. But you say we must reconcile with God. Those two are mutually exclusive. If God is reconciled to the whole world, there is nothing for us to do since we are already reconciled.

Robert Pate
October 14th, 2015, 03:05 PM
You said God reconciled the whole world. But you say we must reconcile with God. Those two are mutually exclusive. If God is reconciled to the whole world, there is nothing for us to do since we are already reconciled.


God extends forgiveness of sins to the whole world.

But its not yours if you don't receive it, John 1:12.

You can't get past that, can you?

You have never come to Christ as a repentant sinner, have you?

NickCharles
October 14th, 2015, 03:08 PM
God extends forgiveness of sins to the whole world.



But its not yours if you don't receive it, John 1:12.



You can't get past that, can you?



You have never come to Christ as a repentant sinner, have you?


See, that's not reconciliation. Reconciliation is restoration of a relationship. If God has reconciled, then that means the relationship HAS ALREADY been restored. So it makes no sense to say that we have to also reconcile. How can one reconcile a relationship that has already been reconciled?

Robert Pate
October 14th, 2015, 03:19 PM
See, that's not reconciliation. Reconciliation is restoration of a relationship. If God has reconciled, then that means the relationship HAS ALREADY been restored. So it makes no sense to say that we have to also reconcile. How can one reconcile a relationship that has already been reconciled?

Your problem is not with me. Your problem is that you don't believe the Bible.

The opening post refutes Calvinism. You just can't accept that, so you question me and the Bible.

Your real problem is that you are not a Christians, you can't understand spiritual things, 1 Corinthians 2:14.

NickCharles
October 14th, 2015, 03:21 PM
Your problem is not with me. Your problem is that you don't believe the Bible.



The opening post refutes Calvinism. You just can't accept that, so you question me and the Bible.



Your real problem is that you are not a Christians, you can't understand spiritual things, 1 Corinthians 2:14.


Your insults don't affect me. I'm a grown man. So keep up with them if you must, but just to let you know, it's a waste of bandwidth.

And you have not actually responded to my post. Which, I assume, is why you need to insult.

Robert Pate
October 14th, 2015, 04:43 PM
Your insults don't affect me. I'm a grown man. So keep up with them if you must, but just to let you know, it's a waste of bandwidth.

And you have not actually responded to my post. Which, I assume, is why you need to insult.

You need to accept Christ as your savior and renounce Calvinism.

Until you do, you will not understand anything.

The Holy Spirit interprets scripture, which you don't have.

NickCharles
October 14th, 2015, 04:45 PM
You need to accept Christ as your savior and renounce Calvinism.



Until you do, you will not understand anything.



The Holy Spirit interprets scripture, which you don't have.


I will assume that you can not reconcile the conundrum I have put before you.

I take that back. Based on your understanding of reconcile, I imagine you can.

NickCharles
October 14th, 2015, 04:46 PM
Note: if you disagree with Mr. Pate, it isn't because he is wrong. It is because you are not saved.

NickCharles
October 14th, 2015, 04:49 PM
Note: if you disagree with Mr. Pate, it isn't because he is wrong. It is because you are not saved.


He'll go toe to toe with you until you bring up an argument that he cannot refute. Then the accusations will fly. This has been his MO for the six or so years I've dealt with him.

Robert Pate
October 14th, 2015, 04:57 PM
Note: if you disagree with Mr. Pate, it isn't because he is wrong. It is because you are not saved.

I am not wrong when it comes to the Gospel and justification by faith.

Tell me about your salvation experience.

When and where did you come to trust Christ as your savior?

NickCharles
October 14th, 2015, 05:00 PM
I am not wrong when it comes to the Gospel and justification by faith.



Tell me about your salvation experience.



When and where did you come to trust Christ as your savior?


This has nothing to do with your errors. You cannot explain why, if God has reconciled the whole world, why we have to be reconciled with Him if we already are. All you can do is continue to repeat your assertions and tell me I'm lost.

patrick jane
October 14th, 2015, 05:08 PM
This has nothing to do with your errors. You cannot explain why, if God has reconciled the whole world, why we have to be reconciled with Him if we already are. All you can do is continue to repeat your assertions and tell me I'm lost.

How many times do you think we are reconciled ?

NickCharles
October 14th, 2015, 09:56 PM
How many times do you think we are reconciled ?


Once.

beloved57
October 15th, 2015, 09:39 AM
God extends forgiveness of sins to the whole world.

But its not yours if you don't receive it, John 1:12.

You can't get past that, can you?

You have never come to Christ as a repentant sinner, have you?

False comment, God gives repentance and forgiveness to Israel His Elect Acts 5:31

31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.

Robert Pate
October 15th, 2015, 11:24 AM
This has nothing to do with your errors. You cannot explain why, if God has reconciled the whole world, why we have to be reconciled with Him if we already are. All you can do is continue to repeat your assertions and tell me I'm lost.

If you do not receive the reconciliation, the reconciliation is not yours.

We become reconciled to God through faith in Christ. Not by works, Not by religion, We are reconciled and justified by faith alone.

NickCharles
October 15th, 2015, 01:21 PM
If you do not receive the reconciliation, the reconciliation is not yours.



We become reconciled to God through faith in Christ. Not by works, Not by religion, We are reconciled and justified by faith alone.


I'm honestly thinking you don't know what reconciling means.

Robert Pate
October 15th, 2015, 03:18 PM
I'm honestly thinking you don't know what reconciling means.

The word "Reconcile" means that at one time you were an enemy of God, Colossians 1:20, 21, 22.

The good news of the Gospel is that in spite of your rebellion towards God, God reconciled you to himself by Jesus Christ.

Jesus as your substitute and representative has reconciled you to God.

Isn't that wonderful?

NickCharles
October 15th, 2015, 03:30 PM
The word "Reconcile" means that at one time you were an enemy of God, Colossians 1:20, 21, 22.



The good news of the Gospel is that in spite of your rebellion towards God, God reconciled you to himself by Jesus Christ.



Jesus as your substitute and representative has reconciled you to God.



Isn't that wonderful?


At one time we were enemies with God. But He reconciled the whole world. That would mean that we are no longer enemies of God.

That's universalism.

Robert Pate
October 15th, 2015, 03:35 PM
At one time we were enemies with God. But He reconciled the whole world. That would mean that we are no longer enemies of God.

That's universalism.

You don't get it. You just don't get it.

You apparently have not been reconciled to God.

You want to be saved without responding to Jesus Christ and his Gospel. Its NOT going to happen.

NickCharles
October 15th, 2015, 03:49 PM
You don't get it. You just don't get it.



You apparently have not been reconciled to God.



You want to be saved without responding to Jesus Christ and his Gospel. Its NOT going to happen.


I'm sorry if you think that's my argument. My argument is against your use of reconciled. It has been for days now. But you don't seem to understand. If someone is reconciled with someone else, they are now both reconciled. You cannot reconcile with someone and have them not be reconciled with you. It's impossible.

So if God is reconciled with the whole world, there's nothing left for anyone to do.

Robert Pate
October 15th, 2015, 04:25 PM
I'm sorry if you think that's my argument. My argument is against your use of reconciled. It has been for days now. But you don't seem to understand. If someone is reconciled with someone else, they are now both reconciled. You cannot reconcile with someone and have them not be reconciled with you. It's impossible.

So if God is reconciled with the whole world, there's nothing left for anyone to do.

That is not the way that it is.

You don't want to come to Christ as a repentant sinner so that you can be saved and reconciled to God.

That's why you like Calvinism. You think that God is going to take you to heaven without you accepting Christ as your savior.

Its not going to happen.

NickCharles
October 15th, 2015, 04:26 PM
That is not the way that it is.



You don't want to come to Christ as a repentant sinner so that you can be saved and reconciled to God.



That's why you like Calvinism. You think that God is going to take you to heaven without you accepting Christ as your savior.



Its not going to happen.


Let's try this.

Can you I be reconciled to you without you being reconciled to me?

Robert Pate
October 15th, 2015, 04:29 PM
Let's try this.

Can you I be reconciled to you without you being reconciled to me?

Of course.

I can forgive you, without you forgiving me. It happens all the time.

NickCharles
October 15th, 2015, 04:31 PM
Of course.



I can forgive you, without you forgiving me. It happens all the time.


Then you don't understand what reconciliation is. Thanks for the demonstration.

Grosnick Marowbe
October 15th, 2015, 04:34 PM
If you do not receive the reconciliation, the reconciliation is not yours.

We become reconciled to God through faith in Christ. Not by works, Not by religion, We are reconciled and justified by faith alone.

AMEN.

NickCharles
October 15th, 2015, 04:35 PM
AMEN.


I'm guessing you don't understand the definition, either.

Robert Pate
October 15th, 2015, 07:43 PM
I'm guessing you don't understand the definition, either.

You have a closed mind that is not open to the truths that are in the Bible.

NickCharles
October 16th, 2015, 06:20 AM
You have a closed mind that is not open to the truths that are in the Bible.


You cannot discern that. You are just trying to deflect from the truth I've pointed out to you that you cannot be reconciled with someone and at the same time, them not be reconciled to you. The best you can do is to change the meaning of the word, or throw out insults. That's not very Christ-like.

Cedarbay
October 16th, 2015, 06:33 AM
Then you don't understand what reconciliation is. Thanks for the demonstration.Reconciliation is a weak word regarding Christ's atonement, don't you think?

I prefer justified. A one-way, gift of grace from the Godhead.

NickCharles
October 16th, 2015, 06:42 AM
Reconciliation is a weak word regarding Christ's atonement, don't you think?



I prefer justified. A one-way, gift of grace from the Godhead.


The issue is that Mr. Pate keeps quoting the verse on reconciliation without taking time to use it correctly. If he used it correctly, it would do damage to his theology.

Cedarbay
October 16th, 2015, 07:14 AM
The issue is that Mr. Pate keeps quoting the verse on reconciliation without taking time to use it correctly. If he used it correctly, it would do damage to his theology.Right.

There is still a bit of the old RCC teaching in me that balks at the word reconciliation, and so I retract my saying it is a weak word.

Although Pate rages against the RCC, he is right in line with it's teaching on reconciliation. It is accomplished through the choices and works of man.

Robert Pate
October 16th, 2015, 07:30 AM
You cannot discern that. You are just trying to deflect from the truth I've pointed out to you that you cannot be reconciled with someone and at the same time, them not be reconciled to you. The best you can do is to change the meaning of the word, or throw out insults. That's not very Christ-like.

To bad that you can't believe what the Bible says.

"To wit, that God was in Christ, RECONCILING THE WORLD UNTO HIMSELF, not imputing their trespasses unto the them; and has committed unto us the word of reconciliation" 2 Corinthians 5:19.

The word of reconciliation is the Gospel.

NickCharles
October 16th, 2015, 07:32 AM
To bad that you can't believe what the Bible says.



"To wit, that God was in Christ, RECONCILING THE WORLD UNTO HIMSELF, not imputing their trespasses unto the them; and has committed unto us the word of reconciliation" 2 Corinthians 5:19.



The word of reconciliation is the Gospel.


I know what the verse says. It's your understanding that's in question. Making it all caps doesn't change the fact that you have a different use of the word.

Robert Pate
October 16th, 2015, 07:53 AM
I know what the verse says. It's your understanding that's in question. Making it all caps doesn't change the fact that you have a different use of the word.

You are a typical Calvinist.

You change words, you delete words, you add words.

You make a sham out of God's word the Bible.

There is only one use of the word. Reconcile means to bring back to friendship. God has reconciled the whole world to himself by Jesus Christ. You can now accept the reconciliation or you can reject the reconciliation. The choice is yours.

NickCharles
October 16th, 2015, 07:55 AM
You are a typical Calvinist.



You change words, you delete words, you add words.



You make a sham out of God's word the Bible.



There is only one use of the word. Reconcile means to bring back to friendship. God has reconciled the whole world to himself by Jesus Christ. You can now accept the reconciliation or you can reject the reconciliation. The choice is yours.


So if God has brought the whole world back to friendship, then the whole world is friends with God. Are you sure that's what you want us to believe?

Robert Pate
October 16th, 2015, 08:01 AM
So if God has brought the whole world back to friendship, then the whole world is friends with God. Are you sure that's what you want us to believe?

Do you really believe that Christ rejectors have been reconciled to God? And that God is going to take Christ rejectors to heaven against their will?

God extends reconciliation to the whole world through Jesus Christ, but its not yours if you don't receive it. John 1:12.

beloved57
October 16th, 2015, 08:02 AM
To bad that you can't believe what the Bible says.

"To wit, that God was in Christ, RECONCILING THE WORLD UNTO HIMSELF, not imputing their trespasses unto the them; and has committed unto us the word of reconciliation" 2 Corinthians 5:19.

The word of reconciliation is the Gospel.

All without exception are not reconciled to God, many of them are under His Condemnation and Wrath Jn 3:18,36 and have their sins imputed to them Jn 8:24

No one in the World of 2 Cor 5:19 is charged with sins ! Read it 2 Cor 5:19

19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

You corrupt the word of God !

NickCharles
October 16th, 2015, 08:03 AM
Do you really believe that Christ rejectors have been reconciled to God? And that God is going to take Christ rejectors to heaven against their will?



God extends reconciliation to the whole world through Jesus Christ, but its not yours if you don't receive it. John 1:12.


Right now it doesn't matter what I think, so stop deflecting. You keep changing the meaning of reconciliation. Don't push that off on me.

beloved57
October 16th, 2015, 08:04 AM
I know what the verse says. It's your understanding that's in question. Making it all caps doesn't change the fact that you have a different use of the word.

he doesnt believe or understand that verse, all he can do is quote it, then give a false invalid comment about it !

Robert Pate
October 16th, 2015, 08:11 AM
he doesnt believe or understand that verse, all he can do is quote it, then give a false invalid comment about it !

The scripture speaks for its self.

Any fool should be able to understand it.

NickCharles
October 16th, 2015, 08:18 AM
The scripture speaks for its self.



Any fool should be able to understand it.


Then why don't you?

Robert Pate
October 16th, 2015, 08:23 AM
Then why don't you?

I have no trouble with it.

You are the one that is trying to refute what the Bible says.

The word "Reconcile" messes up your Calvinist doctrine.

If God has already reconciled the world unto himself by Jesus Christ, the no one needs to be predestinated.

NickCharles
October 16th, 2015, 08:33 AM
I have no trouble with it.



You are the one that is trying to refute what the Bible says.



The word "Reconcile" messes up your Calvinist doctrine.



If God has already reconciled the world unto himself by Jesus Christ, the no one needs to be predestinated.


Again, if everyone is reconciled, then everyone is a friend of God.

Brother Ducky
October 16th, 2015, 08:35 AM
I have no trouble with it.

You are the one that is trying to refute what the Bible says.

The word "Reconcile" messes up your Calvinist doctrine.

If God has already reconciled the world unto himself by Jesus Christ, the no one needs to be predestinated.

Except you hold that reconciled is both true now, and something that you have to accept, and that the mean Pate god can take it away, and throw you into hell.

iouae
October 16th, 2015, 08:37 AM
There are 2 ways of foreknowing something.
1. I can look at an empty plot of land and visualise a house on it, and having money, I can know that a certain house will be built on it.

2. The second form of predestination is the "spooky" kind where you can tell the future, and accurately predict the lottery numbers.

Which kind of "foreknowing" are we speaking about?

Robert Pate
October 16th, 2015, 09:07 AM
Except you hold that reconciled is both true now, and something that you have to accept, and that the mean Pate god can take it away, and throw you into hell.

Not if you accept the reconciliation that God is offering to you in Jesus Christ.

To reject the reconciliation is to reject what God has done for you in Christ.

NickCharles
October 16th, 2015, 09:10 AM
There are 2 ways of foreknowing something.

1. I can look at an empty plot of land and visualise a house on it, and having money, I can know that a certain house will be built on it.



2. The second form of predestination is the "spooky" kind where you can tell the future, and accurately predict the lottery numbers.



Which kind of "foreknowing" are we speaking about?


Actually, it's the Jeremiah 1:5 kind of foreknowning.

Robert Pate
October 16th, 2015, 09:10 AM
There are 2 ways of foreknowing something.
1. I can look at an empty plot of land and visualise a house on it, and having money, I can know that a certain house will be built on it.

2. The second form of predestination is the "spooky" kind where you can tell the future, and accurately predict the lottery numbers.

Which kind of "foreknowing" are we speaking about?

The first kind.

God foreknows that those who are "In Christ" will be conformed to the image of his Son. Romans 8:29.

NickCharles
October 16th, 2015, 09:11 AM
Not if you accept the reconciliation that God is offering to you in Jesus Christ.



To reject the reconciliation is to reject what God has done for you in Christ.


You can't reject it. If you reject it, then it can't be true that God reconciled Himself to the whole world, in any real sense.

Robert Pate
October 16th, 2015, 09:19 AM
Again, if everyone is reconciled, then everyone is a friend of God.

Then that means that there will not be a judgment?

The word of God all fits together. If you mess with one part of it, you have messed with the whole thing.

NickCharles
October 16th, 2015, 09:24 AM
Then that means that there will not be a judgment?
.


If you are consistent, then no. That's why your view logically leads too universalism.

Now, if world means people from every tongue, tribe and nation, then there's no conflict.

Yes, it all fits together. But it must fit logically. Your view is illogical because of contradictions.

Robert Pate
October 16th, 2015, 10:00 AM
If you are consistent, then no. That's why your view logically leads too universalism.

Now, if world means people from every tongue, tribe and nation, then there's no conflict.

Yes, it all fits together. But it must fit logically. Your view is illogical because of contradictions.

Only in your twisted mind.

I do not teach contradictions. I teach what the Bible says, but because you don't have the Holy Spirit, that is the teacher and revealer of truth, what I am saving doesn't make sense to you.

NickCharles
October 16th, 2015, 10:02 AM
Only in your twisted mind.



I do not teach contradictions. I teach what the Bible says, but because you don't have the Holy Spirit, that is the teacher and revealer of truth, what I am saving doesn't make sense to you.


You do teach contradictions. You think we can be reconciled and not reconciled at the same time.

iouae
October 16th, 2015, 10:35 AM
Actually, it's the Jeremiah 1:5 kind of foreknowning.

If God wanted a prophet, and made it happen, then that is the first type of predestination. That leaves room for God to decide to do other things in future, and thus change the course of the future.

If God had foreknown Jeremiah and everything else that would happen in the future, that would be the spooky kind, since that would mean there is only one possible future and its all planned out. That would leave God with nothing to do except watch back to the future reruns since He could not change anything.

NickCharles
October 16th, 2015, 10:37 AM
If God wanted a prophet, and made it happen, then that is the first type of predestination. That leaves room for God to decide to do other things in future, and thus change the course of the future.



If God had foreknown Jeremiah and everything else that would happen in the future, that would be the spooky kind, since that would mean there is only one possible future and its all planned out. That would leave God with nothing to do except watch back to the future reruns since He could not change anything.


God said He foreknew Jeremiah. He didn't say He foreknew things about Him.

iouae
October 16th, 2015, 10:58 AM
God said He foreknew Jeremiah. He didn't say He foreknew things about Him.

Sorry if I am being slow - that means it has to be the first type of predestination. If it was the second type, then God would know everything about Jeremiah. Do you agree?

NickCharles
October 16th, 2015, 11:12 AM
Sorry if I am being slow - that means it has to be the first type of predestination. If it was the second type, then God would know everything about Jeremiah. Do you agree?


There's nothing that God doesn't know. But foreknowing isn't about information. It's about relationships.

beloved57
October 16th, 2015, 11:14 AM
The scripture speaks for its self.

Any fool should be able to understand it.

Thats not the issue, the issue is you speaking falsely for the scripture ! You are a false witness !

beloved57
October 16th, 2015, 11:15 AM
There's nothing that God doesn't know. But foreknowing isn't about information. It's about relationships.

Correct ! Foreknow is the same as He foreloved them !

iouae
October 16th, 2015, 11:29 AM
There's nothing that God doesn't know. But foreknowing isn't about information. It's about relationships.

Please explain to me how foreKNOWing is not about KNOWledge or information.

I am happy that relationships fall into the universal set of knowledge.

NickCharles
October 16th, 2015, 11:33 AM
Please explain to me how foreKNOWing is not about KNOWledge or information.



I am happy that relationships fall into the universal set of knowledge.


In the same way that I know my wife. It's not the same thing as having knowledge about her. It's personal and relational.

beloved57
October 16th, 2015, 11:37 AM
I have no trouble with it.

You are the one that is trying to refute what the Bible says.

The word "Reconcile" messes up your Calvinist doctrine.

If God has already reconciled the world unto himself by Jesus Christ, the no one needs to be predestinated.

Invalid comments!

iouae
October 16th, 2015, 11:45 AM
In the same way that I know my wife. It's not the same thing as having knowledge about her. It's personal and relational.

Let us suppose you are Christ wooing His virgins. This is relational, this is personal. Suppose a virgin, or future "bride" says "No", does Christ respect that "No"? Does He have the freedom to go and woo another? Or does He have the advantage over all us pathetic men who live in fear of being rebuffed in that He only woos those He KNOWS will say "yes"?

NickCharles
October 16th, 2015, 11:49 AM
Let us suppose you are Christ wooing His virgins. This is relational, this is personal. Suppose a virgin, or future "bride" says "No", does Christ respect that "No"? Does He have the freedom to go and woo another? Or does He have the advantage over all us pathetic men who live in fear of being rebuffed in that He only woos those He KNOWS will say "yes"?


He doesn't woo. So I cannot answer that.

iouae
October 16th, 2015, 12:07 PM
He doesn't woo. So I cannot answer that.

God would like all to be saved according to 1 Tim 2:4

3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; 4 Who will have all men to be saved , and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

That is what I mean by "wooing". He is calling all to be saved.
Yet we know that some will end up in hell.

Who's fault is that - God who originally created them uncallable , knowing they would reject him....
...or their own fault for rebuffing Him.

If the first, then the scripture should read "Who will have some men to be saved", not so?

NickCharles
October 16th, 2015, 12:10 PM
God would like all to be saved according to 1 Tim 2:4



3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; 4 Who will have all men to be saved , and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.



That is what I mean by "wooing". He is calling all to be saved.

Yet we know that some will end up in hell.



Who's fault is that - God who originally created them uncuttable, knowing they would reject him....

...or their own fault for rebuffing Him.



If the first, then the scripture should read "Who will have some men to be saved", not so?


He calls. He doesn't woo. It man's fault if he ends up in hell because he's a sinner. If he ends up saved, it's purely because of God's grace.

beloved57
October 16th, 2015, 12:10 PM
God would like all to be saved according to 1 Tim 2:4

3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; 4 Who will have all men to be saved , and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

That is what I mean by "wooing". He is calling all to be saved.
Yet we know that some will end up in hell.

Who's fault is that - God who originally created them uncallable , knowing they would reject him....
...or their own fault for rebuffing Him.

If the first, then the scripture should read "Who will have some men to be saved", not so?

False Comments !

iouae
October 16th, 2015, 12:21 PM
He calls. He doesn't woo. It man's fault if he ends up in hell because he's a sinner. If he ends up saved, it's purely because of God's grace.

If its "man's fault" is that because God created him faulty.
If so, would that not be God's fault?

Or did God create man perfect, and able to choose Him, and man chose wrong. In which case "God can will all to be saved" and not get His own will or way.

Robert Pate
October 16th, 2015, 05:11 PM
He doesn't woo. So I cannot answer that.


The Spirit of God is in the world calling all to come to Christ, Hebrews 3:15 also Revelation 3:20.

NickCharles
October 16th, 2015, 05:13 PM
The Spirit of God is in the world calling all to come to Christ, Hebrews 3:15 also Revelation 3:20.


Calling isn't wooing.

Robert Pate
October 16th, 2015, 05:14 PM
Calling isn't wooing.

Its the same thing.

NickCharles
October 16th, 2015, 05:16 PM
Its the same thing.


No. It's not. Unless you think that those He woos He also justifies.

Robert Pate
October 16th, 2015, 05:21 PM
No. It's not. Unless you think that those He woos He also justifies.


He calls sinners to repentance. Only those that come to him are justified.

NickCharles
October 16th, 2015, 05:23 PM
He calls sinners to repentance. Only those that come to him are justified.


That's not what Romans 8:30 states. You aren't trying to rewrite scripture, are you?

glorydaz
October 16th, 2015, 05:24 PM
He calls. He doesn't woo. It man's fault if he ends up in hell because he's a sinner. If he ends up saved, it's purely because of God's grace.



2 Corinthians 5:20
Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.

NickCharles
October 16th, 2015, 05:25 PM
2 Corinthians 5:20

Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.


Yeah. I have that verse in my bible too. I'm not sure why you are posting it, though.

glorydaz
October 16th, 2015, 05:39 PM
That's not what Romans 8:30 states. You aren't trying to rewrite scripture, are you?

Funny thing about "scripture". If you take up reading in the middle of a thought, you miss the complete picture.

glorydaz
October 16th, 2015, 05:44 PM
Yeah. I have that verse in my bible too. I'm not sure why you are posting it, though.

Because, God "beseeches" us through the preaching of the Gospel. You understand what beseech means don't you?

NickCharles
October 16th, 2015, 05:44 PM
Funny thing about "scripture". If you take up reading in the middle of a thought, you miss the complete picture.


I agree.

NickCharles
October 16th, 2015, 05:46 PM
Because, God "beseeches" us through the preaching of the Gospel. You understand what beseech means don't you?


What does it say God beseeches us to do?

iouae
October 16th, 2015, 11:43 PM
The Spirit of God is in the world calling all to come to Christ, Hebrews 3:15 also Revelation 3:20.

I agree with Robert that God is calling all, which is in line with "He will have all men to be saved".

That means He must have provided a means for all to be saved.

Or scripture would have read "He will have SOME men to be saved".

The fact that some are not saved means that God respects the concept of not dragging anyone into His kingdom kicking and screaming.

The very idea that He so prioritises freedom to choose, IMHO negates the idea of predestination.

Predestination is founded on the misinterpretation of one scripture, viz. that God "knoweth all things".

glorydaz
October 17th, 2015, 12:00 AM
What does it say God beseeches us to do?

Will this third time be the charm? :think:

God beseeches us to be reconciled to Him.


2 Cor. 5:20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.

Turn toward God......from unbelief to belief.


Acts 20:21
Testifying both to the Jews, and also to the Greeks, repentance toward God, and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ.

iouae
October 17th, 2015, 12:59 AM
Predestination is founded on the misinterpretation of one scripture, viz. that God "knoweth all things".

I know its sad when one has to quote one's own post... ;)
...but to correct my previous post....

I am not against predestination of the kind where God wants something (a Jeremiah) and works to get it.

I am against predestination of the spooky kind which says that God has pre-planned one and only one future for all of us.

OCTOBER23
October 17th, 2015, 06:12 AM
(them he also justified)

LOOKS LIKE THEY HAVE TO BE JUSTIFIED FIRST.

Matthew 12:37 For by thy words thou shalt be justified

Acts 13:39 And by him all that believe are justified from all things,

-BELIEVE

Romans 2:13 For not the hearers of the law are just before God,
but the doers of the law shall be justified.

-KEEP THE LAW

Romans 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith
without the deeds of the law.

-FAITH

Romans 5:9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood,
we shall be saved from wrath through him.

-BLOOD

Titus 3:7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs
according to the hope of eternal life.

-GRACE

NickCharles
October 17th, 2015, 06:41 AM
Will this third time be the charm? :think:



God beseeches us to be reconciled to Him.




2 Cor. 5:20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.



Turn toward God......from unbelief to belief.




Acts 20:21

Testifying both to the Jews, and also to the Greeks, repentance toward God, and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ.


That's great. Is that how you won over your wife? Did you beseech her to go out with you?

Robert Pate
October 17th, 2015, 07:06 AM
I agree with Robert that God is calling all, which is in line with "He will have all men to be saved".

That means He must have provided a means for all to be saved.

Or scripture would have read "He will have SOME men to be saved".

The fact that some are not saved means that God respects the concept of not dragging anyone into His kingdom kicking and screaming.

The very idea that He so prioritises freedom to choose, IMHO negates the idea of predestination.

Predestination is founded on the misinterpretation of one scripture, viz. that God "knoweth all things".

Right.

If God in the person of Jesus Christ only atoned for the sins of some and not the sins of all, he would be unjust. If he is unjust then he is a sinner just like us. If God is a sinner just like us, then you can't trust him.

Satan is very subtle in the way that he tries to destroy our faith in God and in his Son Jesus Christ. Jesus said, "Beware of Men" especially religious men.

Brother Ducky
October 17th, 2015, 07:42 AM
I agree with Robert that God is calling all, which is in line with "He will have all men to be saved".

That means He must have provided a means for all to be saved.

Or scripture would have read "He will have SOME men to be saved".

The fact that some are not saved means that God respects the concept of not dragging anyone into His kingdom kicking and screaming.

The very idea that He so prioritises freedom to choose, IMHO negates the idea of predestination.

Predestination is founded on the misinterpretation of one scripture, viz. that God "knoweth all things".

In what sense is God calling all?

NickCharles
October 17th, 2015, 07:46 AM
Right.



If God in the person of Jesus Christ only atoned for the sins of some and not the sins of all, he would be unjust. If he is unjust then he is a sinner just like us. If God is a sinner just like us, then you can't trust him.



Satan is very subtle in the way that he tries to destroy our faith in God and in his Son Jesus Christ. Jesus said, "Beware of Men" especially religious men.

You've made the claim that it would be unjust if Christ only died for some. Please explain why that is unjust if nobody deserves to be saved.

beloved57
October 17th, 2015, 10:44 AM
Because, God "beseeches" us through the preaching of the Gospel. You understand what beseech means don't you?

Paul is beesching only them that are saved already and reconciled to God already, that is not for lost person's in their sins! These people have no sins charged to them vs 19!

beloved57
October 17th, 2015, 10:48 AM
I agree with Robert that God is calling all, which is in line with "He will have all men to be saved".

That means He must have provided a means for all to be saved.

Or scripture would have read "He will have SOME men to be saved".

The fact that some are not saved means that God respects the concept of not dragging anyone into His kingdom kicking and screaming.

The very idea that He so prioritises freedom to choose, IMHO negates the idea of predestination.

Predestination is founded on the misinterpretation of one scripture, viz. that God "knoweth all things".

Those God calls are predestinated are Justified and Glorified Rom 8:28-30!

Robert Pate
October 17th, 2015, 01:03 PM
Those God calls are predestinated are Justified and Glorified Rom 8:28-30!


Predestination has been canceled out by the reconciliating work of Jesus Christ.

No one needs to be predestinated. God has ALREADY reconciled the world unto himself by Jesus Christ, 2 Corinthians 5:19.

iouae
October 17th, 2015, 02:52 PM
Those God calls are predestinated are Justified and Glorified Rom 8:28-30!

Explain to me your views on predestination please.
Are the wicked predestined to be damned etc?
Do they have any freedom to choose?

iouae
October 17th, 2015, 02:57 PM
In what sense is God calling all?

He will have all men to be saved.
He predestined some to be called now as firstfruits to reign with Him during the millennium. These we call "Christians" today.

What do you believe concerning predestination?

Robert Pate
October 17th, 2015, 03:39 PM
You've made the claim that it would be unjust if Christ only died for some. Please explain why that is unjust if nobody deserves to be saved.

It is not our fault that we are sinners. Its Adam's fault.

All are born into sin, Psalm 51:5.

We don't become sinners we are "MADE" sinners.

"For as by one man's disobedience many were "MADE" sinners" Romans 5:19.

NickCharles
October 17th, 2015, 03:54 PM
It is not our fault that we are sinners. Its Adam's fault.



All are born into sin, Psalm 51:5.



We don't become sinners we are "MADE" sinners.



"For as by one man's disobedience many were "MADE" sinners" Romans 5:19.


I'm still waiting for an answer.

Robert Pate
October 17th, 2015, 03:56 PM
I'm still waiting for an answer.

That is the answer. You just don't like it.

NickCharles
October 17th, 2015, 04:11 PM
That is the answer. You just don't like it.


I don't like OT because it doesn't answer the question. I know it's much easier to make statements than it is to defend them. But give it a shot.

Robert Pate
October 17th, 2015, 04:14 PM
I don't like OT because it doesn't answer the question. I know it's much easier to make statements than it is to defend them. But give it a shot.

You are a hopless case.

NickCharles
October 17th, 2015, 04:23 PM
You are a hopless case.


Probably. Thankfully I have Jesus. But that still doesn't excuse you from defending your position.

Robert Pate
October 17th, 2015, 04:27 PM
Probably. Thankfully I have Jesus. But that still doesn't excuse you from defending your position.

No you don't.

You have John Calvin the heretic.

If you had Jesus you would not need John Calvin the heretic.

beloved57
October 17th, 2015, 05:34 PM
No you don't.

You have John Calvin the heretic.

If you had Jesus you would not need John Calvin the heretic.

Since when did you believe in Jesus? You teach that millions upon millions for whom He died, shall wind up in hell lost in their sins in unbelief! That's not believing in Jesus!

iouae
October 17th, 2015, 10:49 PM
Predestination is a complicated business. In point form I am summarising what I believe so that one does not end up bickering over things one actually is in agreement on.

1. God predicted certain things in advance, that He would make a world, and create mortals, and save them.
2. God can predict things because He has the power to make them come to pass (predestination of the 1st or non-spooky kind).
3. God cannot predict precise details of the future because the future will be decided in collaboration with the choices man makes. There are things pertaining to the future which don't involve man, and these God can predict perfectly, because He has total control over these.
4. Therefore there is no predestination of the spooky kind or 2nd kind when it comes to mankind, because each person has freedom to decide his own future.
5. God wills to have every person to be saved.
6. But God knows that this is a numbers game, and that some will not be saved.
7. Thus, knowing that some failure was inevitable, in advance, God prepared a hell where those who don't choose Him will be thrown into, and burn UP, not burn forever.
8. For those who choose Him, He is preparing a kingdom in heaven, which will eventually relocate to earth as the New Jerusalem.
9. The best kept secret in the Bible is the ratio of saved to lost. This will only be revealed at Christ's second coming and onwards.
10. "9" above is not even known exactly by God, since it depends on the choices folks make, right up to His 2nd coming. Choosing the "mark of the Beast" for instance will exclude you from His kingdom.
11. Or, God forbid, Christ is going to prepare a place for us, and there are only so many places in His kingdom, and then it's full. Only the best of the best up to that number make it into His kingdom. God does say that His Kingdom suffers violence, and the violent take it by force. This is like describing opening day at a sale. His saints have to storm His kingdom.

I have numbered this in case anyone wishes to say which points they do and do not agree with, so that we do not end up talking at cross purposes.

Ask Mr. Religion
October 17th, 2015, 11:27 PM
Predestination is a complicated business. In point form I am summarising what I believe so that one does not end up bickering over things one actually is in agreement on.

1. God predicted certain things in advance, that He would make a world, and create mortals, and save them.
2. God can predict things because He has the power to make them come to pass (predestination of the 1st or non-spooky kind).
3. God cannot predict precise details of the future because the future will be decided in collaboration with the choices man makes.


So with all this predicting you assume of God, you are an open theist type?

http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1535835#post1535835

AMR

iouae
October 18th, 2015, 03:29 AM
So with all this predicting you assume of God, you are an open theist type?

http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1535835#post1535835

AMR

Thank you for making me look up what an "open theist" is.

Theopedia defines it as...
"Open theism, also called free will theism and openness theology, is the belief that God does not exercise meticulous control of the universe but leaves it "open" for humans to make significant choices (free will) that impact their relationships with God and others. A corollary of this is that God has not predetermined the future. Open Theists further believe that this would imply that God does not know the future exhaustively. Proponents affirm that God is omniscient, but deny that this means that God knows everything that will happen."

Wow - that is exactly what I believe.

NickCharles
October 18th, 2015, 05:41 AM
No you don't.



You have John Calvin the heretic.



If you had Jesus you would not need John Calvin the heretic.


Even if this was true, it doesn't excuse you from not being able to answer simple questions about the inconsistencies of your theology.

Robert Pate
October 18th, 2015, 07:46 AM
Even if this was true, it doesn't excuse you from not being able to answer simple questions about the inconsistencies of your theology.

There are no inconsistencies in my theology because it is based upon the Bible and the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

Your theology is based upon what was written by a heretic in the 1500's.

NickCharles
October 18th, 2015, 09:19 AM
There are no inconsistencies in my theology because it is based upon the Bible and the Gospel of Jesus Christ.



Your theology is based upon what was written by a heretic in the 1500's.


That's still not the point. If yours was based on scripture, you'd be able to answer my questions. Instead, you want to throw insults. Which do you think brings more glory to God?

beloved57
October 18th, 2015, 10:34 AM
There are no inconsistencies in my theology because it is based upon the Bible and the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

Your theology is based upon what was written by a heretic in the 1500's.

How is it based on the Gospel of Christ when you don't believe the Gospel of Gods Grace in Christ, Tulip truths! Also you deny that Christ death alone saved from sins and unbelief all for whom He lived and died!

Don't you believe that millions for whom Christ lived and died shall wind up in Hell for their sins in unbelief?

Shasta
October 18th, 2015, 11:38 AM
I know its sad when one has to quote one's own post... ;)
...but to correct my previous post....

I am not against predestination of the kind where God wants something (a Jeremiah) and works to get it.

I am against predestination of the spooky kind which says that God has pre-planned one and only one future for all of us.

What makes something "spooky?" That seems to be a very subjective term. I mean a materialist would say that all the thoughts and actions of an infinite supernatural Being were "spooky" because they transcend human understanding and limitation.

Shasta
October 18th, 2015, 11:43 AM
How is it based on the Gospel of Christ when you don't believe the Gospel of Gods Grace in Christ, Tulip truths! Also you deny that Christ death alone saved from sins and unbelief all for whom He lived and died!

Don't you believe that millions for whom Christ lived and died shall wind up in Hell for their sins in unbelief?

Limited atonement leads to the doctrine of predetermined damnation for the majority of mankind. There is no grace whatsoever in that "Tulip Truth."

Shasta
October 18th, 2015, 11:46 AM
Thank you for making me look up what an "open theist" is.

Theopedia defines it as...
"Open theism, also called free will theism and openness theology, is the belief that God does not exercise meticulous control of the universe but leaves it "open" for humans to make significant choices (free will) that impact their relationships with God and others. A corollary of this is that God has not predetermined the future. Open Theists further believe that this would imply that God does not know the future exhaustively. Proponents affirm that God is omniscient, but deny that this means that God knows everything that will happen."

Wow - that is exactly what I believe.

Nobody in the Early Church was an open theist. They all believed that knowing the future was an aspect of God's omniscience. Neither though did they believe in predeterminism. They believed man had a freewill. This was taught for 300 years until Augustine brought Platonic ideas into Church theology.

beloved57
October 18th, 2015, 11:57 AM
Limited atonement leads to the doctrine of predetermined damnation for the majority of mankind. There is no grace whatsoever in that "Tulip Truth."

Limited atonement is Gospel Truth, if you don't believe it you are in unbelief still !

Shasta
October 18th, 2015, 12:03 PM
Predestination is a complicated business. In point form I am summarising what I believe so that one does not end up bickering over things one actually is in agreement on.

1. God predicted certain things in advance, that He would make a world, and create mortals, and save them.
2. God can predict things because He has the power to make them come to pass (predestination of the 1st or non-spooky kind).
3. God cannot predict precise details of the future because the future will be decided in collaboration with the choices man makes. There are things pertaining to the future which don't involve man, and these God can predict perfectly, because He has total control over these.
4. Therefore there is no predestination of the spooky kind or 2nd kind when it comes to mankind, because each person has freedom to decide his own future.
5. God wills to have every person to be saved.
6. But God knows that this is a numbers game, and that some will not be saved.
7. Thus, knowing that some failure was inevitable, in advance, God prepared a hell where those who don't choose Him will be thrown into, and burn UP, not burn forever.
8. For those who choose Him, He is preparing a kingdom in heaven, which will eventually relocate to earth as the New Jerusalem.
9. The best kept secret in the Bible is the ratio of saved to lost. This will only be revealed at Christ's second coming and onwards.
10. "9" above is not even known exactly by God, since it depends on the choices folks make, right up to His 2nd coming. Choosing the "mark of the Beast" for instance will exclude you from His kingdom.
11. Or, God forbid, Christ is going to prepare a place for us, and there are only so many places in His kingdom, and then it's full. Only the best of the best up to that number make it into His kingdom. God does say that His Kingdom suffers violence, and the violent take it by force. This is like describing opening day at a sale. His saints have to storm His kingdom.

I have numbered this in case anyone wishes to say which points they do and do not agree with, so that we do not end up talking at cross purposes.

If man's freewill decisions are unknown to God how does He even know the ratio of believers to unbelievers? If the raw number of believers and unbelievers cannot be known then how can the ratio between the raw numbers be calculated?

Shasta
October 18th, 2015, 12:39 PM
Limited atonement is Gospel Truth, if you don't believe it you are in unbelief still !

Lets set aside your repetition of your belief for a moment and return to your post to Pate:


How is it based on the Gospel of Christ when you don't believe the Gospel of Gods Grace in Christ, Tulip truths! Also you deny that Christ death alone saved from sins and unbelief all for whom He lived and died!

Don't you believe that millions for whom Christ lived and died shall wind up in Hell for their sins in unbelief?

You seem to think if Christ died for any who did not receive Him then His sacrifice is somehow a "waste" as if grace were a substance which like gasoline is dispensed to so many souls, with any unused "grace" going to "waste." This is a short sighted and concrete way of looking at it. What Christ bought was the opportunity for anyone who believes in Him to be saved. This means He died knowing many would refuse his offer. What you might think of as "wasteful" I call the incredible extravagance of His mercy

Your conception of God, is of a Being who loves ONLY those He knew would eventually obey Him. There is no "wasteful" expenditure of love there. He measures out his suffering so as to save only the allotted number of those he arbitrarily chose to save. Calvin's God is reminiscent of Muhammed's Allah who loves only the obedient and who destines all other men to hell.

Calvin's God has foreordained that most men to go to hell. The crime of the damned is "not believing in Jesus" yet it is God who refuses to give them the grace they need to believe and be saved. Instead He hardens their heart to assure their judgment. To punish men who refused to believe is justice. To punish them when they never had the opportunity in this first place is cruel and unjust.

Where is the grace of God in this?

patrick jane
October 18th, 2015, 12:45 PM
Lets set aside your repetition of your belief for a moment and return to your post to Pate:



You seem to think if Christ died for any who did not receive Him then His sacrifice is somehow a "waste" as if grace were a substance which like gasoline is dispensed to so many souls, with any unused "grace" going to "waste." This is a short sighted and concrete way of looking at it. What Christ bought was the opportunity for anyone who believes in Him to be saved. This means He died knowing many would refuse his offer. What you might think of as "wasteful" I call the incredible extravagance of His mercy

Your conception of God, is of a Being who loves ONLY those He knew would eventually obey Him. There is no "wasteful" expenditure of love there. He measures out his suffering so as to save only the allotted number of those he arbitrarily chose to save. Calvin's God is reminiscent of Muhammed's Allah who loves only the obedient and who destines all other men to hell.

Calvin's God has foreordained that most men to go to hell. The crime of the damned is "not believing in Jesus" yet it is God who refuses to give them the grace they need to believe and be saved. Instead He hardens their heart to assure their judgment. To punish men who refused to believe is justice. To punish them when they never had the opportunity in this first place is cruel and unjust.

Where is the grace of God in this?

true dat.

patrick jane
October 18th, 2015, 12:49 PM
Since when did you believe in Jesus? You teach that millions upon millions for whom He died, shall wind up in hell lost in their sins in unbelief! That's not believing in Jesus!

No, that's what NOT believing in Jesus Christ gets you - hell

beloved57
October 18th, 2015, 01:43 PM
Lets set aside your repetition of your belief for a moment and return to your post to Pate:



You seem to think if Christ died for any who did not receive Him then His sacrifice is somehow a "waste" as if grace were a substance which like gasoline is dispensed to so many souls, with any unused "grace" going to "waste." This is a short sighted and concrete way of looking at it. What Christ bought was the opportunity for anyone who believes in Him to be saved. This means He died knowing many would refuse his offer. What you might think of as "wasteful" I call the incredible extravagance of His mercy

Your conception of God, is of a Being who loves ONLY those He knew would eventually obey Him. There is no "wasteful" expenditure of love there. He measures out his suffering so as to save only the allotted number of those he arbitrarily chose to save. Calvin's God is reminiscent of Muhammed's Allah who loves only the obedient and who destines all other men to hell.

Calvin's God has foreordained that most men to go to hell. The crime of the damned is "not believing in Jesus" yet it is God who refuses to give them the grace they need to believe and be saved. Instead He hardens their heart to assure their judgment. To punish men who refused to believe is justice. To punish them when they never had the opportunity in this first place is cruel and unjust.

Where is the grace of God in this?

I'm not setting aside the Gospel of Gods Grace in Christ because of your unbelief!

beloved57
October 18th, 2015, 01:56 PM
No, that's what NOT believing in Jesus Christ gets you - hell

Not if Christ died for you, you can't go to Hell! Even when those Christ died for are enemies and unbelievers, they have already been reconciled to God Rom 5:10 !

iouae
October 19th, 2015, 04:00 AM
Limited atonement leads to the doctrine of predetermined damnation for the majority of mankind. There is no grace whatsoever in that "Tulip Truth."

You are quite right to soundly condemn the idea that a loving God predestined some to burn in an ever-burning hellfire.

Most Christians cannot even explain how an eskimo living before Christ, was supposed to hear the Gospel and be saved.

That leads to ridiculous theories that Christ came to die for the sins of all (true) but they don't have to choose Him because all are saved. Problem with this theory is I don't want to spend eternity with Hitler, Judas,... and a whole lot of other unsavories - and neither does God. That is why His party is by invitation only.

Another problem Christians cannot explain is how the BC eskimo will receive his invite - which he will.

iouae
October 19th, 2015, 04:05 AM
Nobody in the Early Church was an open theist. They all believed that knowing the future was an aspect of God's omniscience. Neither though did they believe in predeterminism. They believed man had a freewill. This was taught for 300 years until Augustine brought Platonic ideas into Church theology.

I did not know I was an "open theist" until AskMrReligion told me.
Maybe they did not have AskMrReligion to tell them they were "open theists" back then, but like me, they believed it anyway.

NickCharles
October 19th, 2015, 04:41 AM
Limited atonement leads to the doctrine of predetermined damnation for the majority of mankind. There is no grace whatsoever in that "Tulip Truth."


You assume that grace is deserved.

Robert Pate
October 19th, 2015, 08:04 AM
You are quite right to soundly condemn the idea that a loving God predestined some to burn in an ever-burning hellfire.

Most Christians cannot even explain how an eskimo living before Christ, was supposed to hear the Gospel and be saved.

That leads to ridiculous theories that Christ came to die for the sins of all (true) but they don't have to choose Him because all are saved. Problem with this theory is I don't want to spend eternity with Hitler, Judas,... and a whole lot of other unsavories - and neither does God. That is why His party is by invitation only.

Another problem Christians cannot explain is how the BC eskimo will receive his invite - which he will.


I will explain it to you.

People are saved the same way today as they were in the Old Testament. They were saved by faith.

They knew that they were sinners and they believed that God would provide them with a savior. They had faith in God's promises. Many people that have never heard about God or Christ have repentant hearts. These are the ones that come to Christ when they hear the Gospel. The Holy Spirit is in the world convicting all people of sin and their need for a savior. Nothing has changed, the just still live by faith.

beloved57
October 19th, 2015, 10:17 AM
I will explain it to you.

People are saved the same way today as they were in the Old Testament. They were saved by faith.

They knew that they were sinners and they believed that God would provide them with a savior. They had faith in God's promises. Many people that have never heard about God or Christ have repentant hearts. These are the ones that come to Christ when they hear the Gospel. The Holy Spirit is in the world convicting all people of sin and their need for a savior. Nothing has changed, the just still live by faith.

How you telling folk how someone is saved when you reject the Gospel of Gods Grace and promote a salvation by works, by what a person does !

Shasta
October 19th, 2015, 10:21 AM
I'm not setting aside the Gospel of Gods Grace in Christ because of your unbelief!

but sanctify Christ as Lord in your hearts, always being ready to make a (reasoned) defense to everyone who asks you to give an account for the hope that is in you, yet with gentleness and reverence (1 Peter 3:15)


I have come to expect this kind of reply. Instead of using a scripture-based reasoned defense to prove your position and deconstruct that of your opponent you return to a dogmatic profession of your slavish devotion to Calvinism. You might as well make a rosary of the Five Petals of Tulip and recite it over and over.

beloved57
October 19th, 2015, 10:24 AM
but sanctify Christ as Lord in your hearts, always being ready to make a (reasoned) defense to everyone who asks you to give an account for the hope that is in you, yet with gentleness and reverence (1 Peter 3:15)


I have come to expect this kind of reply. Instead of using a scripture-based reasoned defense to prove your position and deconstruct that of your opponent you return to a dogmatic profession of your slavish devotion to Calvinism. You might as well make a rosary of the Five Petals of Tulip and recite it over and over.

My Hope lies in the Gospel I teach and defend in my threads and posts, have you read them ?

iouae
October 19th, 2015, 10:50 AM
I will explain it to you.

People are saved the same way today as they were in the Old Testament. They were saved by faith.

They knew that they were sinners and they believed that God would provide them with a savior. They had faith in God's promises. Many people that have never heard about God or Christ have repentant hearts. These are the ones that come to Christ when they hear the Gospel. The Holy Spirit is in the world convicting all people of sin and their need for a savior. Nothing has changed, the just still live by faith.

I was with you up till the last sentence, which I would love you to "unpack" (I hate this modern word :) )

Will the just also live by [the muslim, the Buddhist, the Hindu, the Evolutionists....etc] faith. In other words, so long as they are just and have faith are they reconciled to God?

Robert Pate
October 19th, 2015, 11:23 AM
I was with you up till the last sentence, which I would love you to "unpack" (I hate this modern word :) )

Will the just also live by [the muslim, the Buddhist, the Hindu, the Evolutionists....etc] faith. In other words, so long as they are just and have faith are they reconciled to God?


Of course not.

Saving faith is always faith in Christ and his Gospel.

Robert Pate
October 19th, 2015, 11:26 AM
My Hope lies in the Gospel I teach and defend in my threads and posts, have you read them ?

You don't have the Gospel that justifies the ungodly Romans 4:5 and reconciles the world unto God, 2 Corinthians 5:19.

You have a false Gospel or another Gospel, that has nothing to do with the work of Christ.

beloved57
October 19th, 2015, 11:26 AM
Of course not.

Saving faith is always faith in Christ and his Gospel.

Wonder if they don't believe the Gospel ?What then ?What kind of faith is that?

beloved57
October 19th, 2015, 11:27 AM
You don't have the Gospel that justifies the ungodly Romans 4:5 and reconciles the world unto God, 2 Corinthians 5:19.

You have a false Gospel or another Gospel, that has nothing to do with the work of Christ.

You don't believe or understand those verses of scripture! You deny the saving death of Christ!

Robert Pate
October 19th, 2015, 11:30 AM
Wonder if they don't believe the Gospel ?What then ?What kind of faith is that?

If they don't have faith in Christ they perish.

"He that does not believe is condemned" John 3:18.

beloved57
October 19th, 2015, 11:33 AM
If they don't have faith in Christ they perish.

"He that does not believe is condemned" John 3:18.

Thats why they dont believe, because they are condemned and Lost ! Lost folk cant believe, the Gospel is hid to them 2 Cor 4:3-4

Robert Pate
October 19th, 2015, 11:38 AM
Thats why they dont believe, because they are condemned and Lost ! Lost folk cant believe, the Gospel is hid to them 2 Cor 4:3-4

HOGWASH!

It does not say that. You are full of lies and deceit.

It says that if you do not believe in him you are condemned.

In John 3:16 it says "WHOSOEVER" meaning ALL. ANYONE, EVERYONE, that believes on him should not perish.

NickCharles
October 19th, 2015, 11:43 AM
If they don't have faith in Christ they perish.



"He that does not believe is condemned" John 3:18.


Does the wrath of God remain on them?

Robert Pate
October 19th, 2015, 11:49 AM
Does the wrath of God remain on them?

All unbelievers in Christ and his Gospel are under the wrath of God.

NickCharles
October 19th, 2015, 11:51 AM
All unbelievers in Christ and his Gospel are under the wrath of God.


Then how can you continue to say that God's wrath was satisfied for every person who ever lived?

Robert Pate
October 19th, 2015, 11:57 AM
Then how can you continue to say that God's wrath was satisfied for every person who ever lived?

You have misunderstood what I said.

Salvation has been provided for everyone by the doing and the dying of Jesus.

Now, "Whosoever that shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved" Romans 10:13.

If you don't call on Christ to save you, you will perish, John 3:18.

NickCharles
October 19th, 2015, 11:58 AM
You have misunderstood what I said.



Salvation has been provided for everyone by the doing and the dying of Jesus.



Now, "Whosoever that shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved" Romans 10:13.



If you don't call on Christ to save you, you will perish, John 3:18.


So God's wrath HASN'T been satisfied for every person whoever lived.

Got it.

iouae
October 19th, 2015, 12:39 PM
Of course not.

Saving faith is always faith in Christ and his Gospel.

Glad we are on the same page there.
But you have still not explained to me how the BC Eskimo will be saved.

beloved57
October 19th, 2015, 01:03 PM
HOGWASH!

It does not say that. You are full of lies and deceit.

It says that if you do not believe in him you are condemned.

In John 3:16 it says "WHOSOEVER" meaning ALL. ANYONE, EVERYONE, that believes on him should not perish.

Those Christ lived and died for are never condemned, even while they are enemies and unbelievers they're reconciled to God Rom 5:10 !

Robert Pate
October 19th, 2015, 02:50 PM
Those Christ lived and died for are never condemned, even while they are enemies and unbelievers they're reconciled to God Rom 5:10 !

This one you will find out for yourself.

Robert Pate
October 19th, 2015, 02:51 PM
Glad we are on the same page there.
But you have still not explained to me how the BC Eskimo will be saved.

Yes I did.

beloved57
October 19th, 2015, 02:52 PM
This one you will find out for yourself.

How can they be condemned? They have obeyed Gods Law perfectly through Christ!

Robert Pate
October 19th, 2015, 02:54 PM
How can they be condemned? They have obeyed Gods Law perfectly through Christ!

You and your doctrine are outside of the faith.

beloved57
October 19th, 2015, 02:59 PM
You and your doctrine are outside of the faith.

You are in a faith I am Thankful to God I'm outside of!

Robert Pate
October 19th, 2015, 03:02 PM
You are in a faith I am Thankful to God I'm outside of!

No doubt about that, you are still in your sins.

Shasta
October 19th, 2015, 05:58 PM
You assume that grace is deserved.

It is not about what we deserve. It is about God's abundant mercy which impels Him to spare us from what we do deserve and give us blessings we do not. God's love and goodwill also extends to the whole even though the majority of the world are His abject enemies.

NickCharles
October 19th, 2015, 06:03 PM
It is not about what we deserve. It is about God's abundant mercy which impels Him to spare us from what we do deserve and give us blessings we do not. God's love and goodwill also extends to the whole even though the majority of the world are His abject enemies.

To say that His mercy impels Him to do anything is to make Him subject to His mercy. And it would lay waste to His claim that He has mercy on whom He has mercy.

“What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God’s part? By no means! For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy.”
**Romans‬ *9:14-16‬ *ESV‬‬
http://bible.com/59/rom.9.14-16.esv

Nanja
October 19th, 2015, 06:06 PM
It is not about what we deserve. It is about God's abundant mercy which impels Him to spare us from what we do deserve and give us blessings we do not. God's love and goodwill also extends to the whole even though the majority of the world are His abject enemies.


God's Mercy is only upon His Vessels of Mercy,
which He had afore prepared unto glory Rom. 9:23!

~~~~~

Bright Raven
October 19th, 2015, 06:11 PM
God's Mercy is only upon His Vessels of Mercy,
which He had afore prepared unto glory Rom. 9:23!

~~~~~Romans 1:16-17 New King James Version (NKJV)

The Just Live by Faith
16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew first and also for the Greek.

17 For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, “The just shall live by faith.”

Shasta
October 19th, 2015, 06:30 PM
I did not know I was an "open theist" until AskMrReligion told me.
Maybe they did not have AskMrReligion to tell them they were "open theists" back then, but like me, they believed it anyway.

Open Theism is a simple belief. It holds that God is a temporal rather than a non-temporal Being. Since we are temporal it is easy to project our experience onto Him. While it sounds straightforward and appears to avoid some problems but you follow the logic far enough and honestly enough you will end up with irresolvable problems.

For one, it means that God does not know what the decisions of free agents will be with certainty. What we call prophecy and divine foreknowledge become merely sophisticated weather forecasts. Given the countless variables that comprise the world of free agents the only way God can be certain of anything is by unilaterally acting. All contingent actions of free agents are uncertain and are likely to interfere with God's plan which makes much of His "plan" a gamble. God becomes a risk taker who can lose. The scriptures, by contrast, present God's foreknowledge as being certain.

Calvinists, following Augustine and Plato believe God is non-temporal and therefore outside space and time. Everything past present and future were, so to speak, frozen in a single eternal NOW. I cannot see that the Early Church Fathers before Augustine had any concept like this. They believed God had no beginning but that He was present (rather than separate) throughout all time. Of course, ontology was not much of a focus with them. The two beliefs they held to firmly and unanimously was that God knew the future with certainty and that men truly have freewill.

Shasta
October 19th, 2015, 07:01 PM
God's Mercy is only upon His Vessels of Mercy,
which He had afore prepared unto glory Rom. 9:23!

~~~~~

This is the typical misunderstanding of the meaning of Romans 9 which people fall into when they do not use scripture to interpret scripture. Paul's remarks about the potter and the clay in Romans 9 is an allusion to Jeremiah 18:1-4.

When the prophet visited the potter's house he saw the potter take a lump of clay and slap it on the wheel. As he turns it the craftsman plans to make it into something nice. Then his fingers encounter a hard material embedded in the clay. Since it would not yield he pulls the hard mass out, tosses it away and begins again. Not having as much of it to work with the potter changes his mind about what it is to become. Instead of making into a noble and elegant vessel he decides to make it into something common and dishonorable.

Now it is not necessary to interpret this parable for the Lord Himself explains what it means.

7 If at any time I declare concerning a nation or a kingdom, that I will pluck up and break down and destroy it, 8 and if that nation, concerning which I have spoken, turns from its evil, I will relent of the disaster that I intended to do to it (Jeremiah 18:7-8)

Here the Lord has prophetically promised judgment to a nation in rebellion but when the nation repents God CHANGES what He has promised and averts the disaster.

9 And if at any time I declare concerning a nation or a kingdom that I will build and plant it, 10 and if it does evil in my sight, not listening to my voice, then I will relent of the good that I had intended to do to it. (Jeremiah 18:9-10)

This time the obedient nation was promised good. When, however, they turn away from God their DESTINY is CHANGED and the good that was promised is never realized.

What the Potter planned to make of the clay depended upon whether the clay yielded to his fingers or resisted. The response of the clay to his will was the basis upon which their destiny was decided. Once the clay resisted or yielded it no longer had power over what it was to become. That is the power the potter had over the clay.

In Paul's use of the metaphor, though Israel had been chosen and given promises, their rebellion caused them to lose their inheritance. At the same time the Gentiles which had been rebellious yielded and their destiny was altered so that they received blessing instead of cursing.

So, far from being an object lesson in helpless predestinationism the analogy of the potter's house tells us that our responses to God's dealings determines our destiny

NickCharles
October 19th, 2015, 07:06 PM
This is the typical misunderstanding of the meaning of Romans 9 which people fall into when they do not use scripture to interpret scripture. Paul's remarks about the potter and the clay in Romans 9 is an allusion to Jeremiah 18:1-4.



When the prophet visited the potter's house he saw the potter take a lump of clay and slap it on the wheel. As he turns it the craftsman plans to make it into something nice. Then his fingers encounter a hard material embedded in the clay. Since it would not yield he pulls the hard mass out, tosses it away and begins again. Not having as much of it to work with the potter changes his mind about what it is to become. Instead of making into a noble and elegant vessel he decides to make it into something common and dishonorable.



Now it is not necessary to interpret this parable for the Lord Himself explains what it means.



7 If at any time I declare concerning a nation or a kingdom, that I will pluck up and break down and destroy it, 8 and if that nation, concerning which I have spoken, turns from its evil, I will relent of the disaster that I intended to do to it (Jeremiah 18:7-8)



Here the Lord has prophetically promised judgment to a nation in rebellion but when the nation repents God CHANGES what He has promised and averts the disaster.



9 And if at any time I declare concerning a nation or a kingdom that I will build and plant it, 10 and if it does evil in my sight, not listening to my voice, then I will relent of the good that I had intended to do to it. (Jeremiah 18:9-10)



This time the obedient nation was promised good. When, however, they turn away from God their DESTINY is CHANGED and the good that was promised is never realized.



What the Potter planned to make of the clay depended upon whether the clay yielded to his fingers or resisted. The response of the clay to his will was the basis upon which their destiny was decided. Once the clay resisted or yielded it no longer had power over what it was to become. That is the power the potter had over the clay.



In Paul's use of the metaphor, though Israel had been chosen and given promises, their rebellion caused them to lose their inheritance. At the same time the Gentiles which had been rebellious yielded and their destiny was altered so that they received blessing instead of cursing.



So, far from being an object lesson in helpless predestinationism the analogy of the potter's house tells us that our responses to God's dealings determines our destiny


The problem with this is that you don't need to use scripture to interpret Romans 9. There's nothing ambiguous about the text. The only ones that run to to OT are the ones that don't like what it plainly says. If Paul had wanted us to read large sections of Jeremiah, he would have either writer it out, or referenced it. He did neither. He wrote it as it was to be taken. Those that read/heard it when it was first brought to Rome would not have said "I don't think Paul really meant that. Let's go to some other area in scripture to figure out what he's really saying."

No, they would have taken it at face value, and so should you.

beloved57
October 19th, 2015, 07:07 PM
God's Mercy is only upon His Vessels of Mercy,
which He had afore prepared unto glory Rom. 9:23!

~~~~~

Exactly!

Bright Raven
October 19th, 2015, 07:33 PM
Romans 1:16-17New King James Version (NKJV)

The Just Live by Faith
16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew first and also for the Greek.
17 For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, “The just shall live by faith.”

Shasta
October 19th, 2015, 07:35 PM
To say that His mercy impels Him to do anything is to make Him subject to His mercy. And it would lay waste to His claim that He has mercy on whom He has mercy.

“What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God’s part? By no means! For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy.”
**Romans‬ *9:14-16‬ *ESV‬‬
http://bible.com/59/rom.9.14-16.esv

I was not saying there was something outside God called "mercy" that impels Him any more than I would say that the phrase "when Jesus saw the multitudes He was moved with compassion" means that a FORCE called "compassion" came over him and like a demon temporarily took control of His will, impelling Him to act in love. Did you really think that is what I meant or are you just playing word games?

If you read my post about Romans 9 you will see that the judgement of the Jews and the blessing of the Gentiles, while part of the divine plan, was not purely arbitrary any more than the choice of the nation of Israel (exemplified by the name Jacob) over Edom (exemplified by the name Esau). Though Jacob was chosen by God to play a role in God's plan, God had to put up with his lying, cheating and deceit until he was broken. God's forbearance was an exercise of His mercy.

God did not have to put up with him. God could have just as well let Isaac see through his flimsy disguise which would likely have caused the old man to curse him...but that was not what God wanted and, besides, underneath it all God saw that Jacob was a desperately needy person trying in his own way to get what Esau "that profane person" disdained. Also, in the final analysis, Jacob had to keep walking with God to fulfill his calling. That is a lesson intrinsic to the Parable of the Potter's House.

Do you doubt that God loves mankind and that He generally extends a measure of mercy to us all even when we are still his enemies? If He does not then we can never tell anyone with certainty that God loves them. We can only say He "might." I doubt that when Jesus saw the crowd like sheep without a Shepherd that his compassion was directed only at a few of His elect gathered here and there.

Shasta
October 19th, 2015, 07:47 PM
Romans 1:16-17New King James Version (NKJV)

The Just Live by Faith
16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew first and also for the Greek.
17 For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, “The just shall live by faith.”

In the Calvinist Amplified version this verse must read:

"16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone (i.e., the elect few) who believes (according to the operation of irresistible grace), for the Jew first and also for the Greek (Romans 1:16-17)

Without these clarifications a reader could get the misconception that "everyone" means "everyone" and that the gospel is an offer open for everyone to believe in.

Bright Raven
October 19th, 2015, 07:49 PM
In the Calvinist Amplified version this verse must read:

"16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone (i.e., the elect few) who believes (according to the operation of irresistible grace), for the Jew first and also for the Greek (Romans 1:16-17)

Without these clarifications a reader could get the misconception that "everyone" means "everyone" and that the gospel is an offer open for everyone to believe in.

And my question to the Calvinist is; How do they know that they are part of the elect?

iouae
October 19th, 2015, 07:56 PM
The scriptures, by contrast, present God's foreknowledge as being certain.

Calvinists, following Augustine and Plato believe God is non-temporal and therefore outside space and time. Everything past present and future were, so to speak, frozen in a single eternal NOW. I cannot see that the Early Church Fathers before Augustine had any concept like this. .

Shasta, do you believe everything past, present and future are, so to speak, frozen in a single eternal NOW?
I am not sure I understand that concept perfectly, but it sounds FRIGHTENING.

I have read the Bible and Plato extensively. I see God as listening to us, responding to us, interacting with us, acting emotionally at times, just like us. This life is like one big video game, where we are playing online with some other player we cannot see (God), but we know he is there and interacting with us in real time. I do believe time exists in the spirit realm just as in the physical. That is the only way there can be cause and effect. If past -present - future are all mushed together, there cannot be cause and effect.

Plato had the idea that nobody could know what the gods wanted since the gods were always fighting with each other.

NickCharles
October 19th, 2015, 08:01 PM
I was not saying there was something outside God called "mercy" that impels Him any more than I would say that the phrase "when Jesus saw the multitudes He was moved with compassion" means that a FORCE called "compassion" came over him and like a demon temporarily took control of His will, impelling Him to act in love. Did you really think that is what I meant or are you just playing word games?

If you read my post about Romans 9 you will see that the judgement of the Jews and the blessing of the Gentiles, while part of the divine plan, was not purely arbitrary any more than the choice of the nation of Israel (exemplified by the name Jacob) over Edom (exemplified by the name Esau). Though Jacob was chosen by God to play a role in God's plan, God had to put up with his lying, cheating and deceit until he was broken. God's forbearance was an exercise of His mercy.

God did not have to put up with him. God could have just as well let Isaac see through his flimsy disguise which would likely have caused the old man to curse him...but that was not what God wanted and, besides, underneath it all God saw that Jacob was a desperately needy person trying in his own way to get what Esau "that profane person" disdained. Also, in the final analysis, Jacob had to keep walking with God to fulfill his calling. That is a lesson intrinsic to the Parable of the Potter's House.

Do you doubt that God loves mankind and that He generally extends a measure of mercy to us all even when we are still his enemies? If He does not then we can never tell anyone with certainty that God loves them. We can only say He "might." I doubt that when Jesus saw the crowd like sheep without a Shepherd that his compassion was directed only at a few of His elect gathered here and there.


All I can do is read what you wrote. If you had intended something else, I have no way of knowing that. God is not impelled to do anything. Which is why He says He will have mercy on who He has mercy. It's strictly an act of His will.

Shasta
October 19th, 2015, 08:02 PM
The problem with this is that you don't need to use scripture to interpret Romans 9. There's nothing ambiguous about the text. The only ones that run to to OT are the ones that don't like what it plainly says. If Paul had wanted us to read large sections of Jeremiah, he would have either writer it out, or referenced it. He did neither. He wrote it as it was to be taken. Those that read/heard it when it was first brought to Rome would not have said "I don't think Paul really meant that. Let's go to some other area in scripture to figure out what he's really saying."

No, they would have taken it at face value, and so should you.

You could not know what Paul wanted Besides the idea that we cannot refer to the OT unless we are referred to the OT is ludicrous and not provable. They were steeped in the OT and it is natural that they would draw many metaphors from there. Besides it answers the issues raised in Romans 9 which had to do with the reasons for God's changing economy. The rationale that God could alter the destinies of nations according to their response to Him is the principle illustrated in Romans and Jeremiah. You just do not like it because you are committed a priori to the doctrine pre-determinism, a belief that was never held by the Early Church.

The notion of inability and pre-determinism came from Calvin who got it from Augustine who. in turn, smuggled it into mainstream Christian thought from Manichaeism, a cult Augustine had belonged to before his conversion. In the preceding 300 years before Augustine the Early Church all the way back to the First Century had taught that the doctrines of inability and determinism were pagan and foreign to Christianity

NickCharles
October 19th, 2015, 08:12 PM
You could not know what Paul wanted Besides the idea that we cannot refer to the OT unless we are referred to the OT is ludicrous and not provable. They were steeped in the OT and it is natural that they would draw many metaphors from there. Besides it answers the issues raised in Romans 9 which had to do with the reasons for God's changing economy. The rationale that God could alter the destinies of nations according to their response to Him is the principle illustrated in Romans and Jeremiah. You just do not like it because you are committed a priori to the doctrine pre-determinism, a belief that was never held by the Early Church.

The notion of inability and pre-determinism came from Calvin who got it from Augustine who. in turn, smuggled it into mainstream Christian thought from Manichaeism, a cult Augustine had belonged to before his conversion. In the preceding 300 years before Augustine the Early Church all the way back to the First Century had taught that the doctrines of inability and determinism were pagan and foreign to Christianity


I'm not the one that has to change what Paul says in Romans 9. There's no way to come to your conclusion based a straight reading of the text. I used to believe as you, so I am quite familiar with the gymnastics required to change what Paul says.

The idea of predestination and God's providence over all thing comes from scripture. I understand your need to marginalize it. But it's there. You just need to believe what is said, even if it goes against your presuppositions.

NickCharles
October 19th, 2015, 08:13 PM
And my question to the Calvinist is; How do they know that they are part of the elect?


Because we are justified by faith. How do you know that you are?

Brother Ducky
October 19th, 2015, 08:14 PM
You and your doctrine are outside of the faith.

Doesn't this statement, at least regarding B57 violate your theology regarding being in Christ, or being reconciled to God etc.?

patrick jane
October 19th, 2015, 08:15 PM
The problem with this is that you don't need to use scripture to interpret Romans 9. There's nothing ambiguous about the text. The only ones that run to to OT are the ones that don't like what it plainly says. If Paul had wanted us to read large sections of Jeremiah, he would have either writer it out, or referenced it. He did neither. He wrote it as it was to be taken. Those that read/heard it when it was first brought to Rome would not have said "I don't think Paul really meant that. Let's go to some other area in scripture to figure out what he's really saying."

No, they would have taken it at face value, and so should you.

Some did search the scriptures daily to see if what Paul said was so.


Acts 17:11 KJV -

NickCharles
October 19th, 2015, 08:16 PM
Some did search the scriptures daily to see if what Paul said was so.





Acts 17:11 KJV -


Yes, I am aware.

patrick jane
October 19th, 2015, 08:19 PM
Yes, I am aware.

nuh uh

Bright Raven
October 19th, 2015, 08:19 PM
Because we are justified by faith. How do you know that you are?

But how do you know you are justified by faith. Did God tell you.

Being a Non-Calvinist, I know this;

Romans 10:9-10New King James Version (NKJV)

9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.

10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.


Ephesians 2:8-9 New King James Version (NKJV)

8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,

9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.

NickCharles
October 19th, 2015, 08:22 PM
But how do you know you are justified by faith. Did God tell you.



Being a Non-Calvinist, I know this;



Romans 10:9-10New King James Version (NKJV)



9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.



10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.





Ephesians 2:8-9 New King James Version (NKJV)



8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,



9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.


I know I'm justified by faith because I have faith, and God says that's how He justifies.

patrick jane
October 19th, 2015, 08:26 PM
I know I'm justified by faith because I have faith, and God says that's how He justifies.

Who did God say it to, so He could make it written ?

NickCharles
October 19th, 2015, 08:27 PM
Who did God say it to, so He could make it written ?


Please let me know when you are ready to engage in serious discussion.

Thanks.

Bright Raven
October 19th, 2015, 08:31 PM
I know I'm justified by faith because I have faith, and God says that's how He justifies.

I am also justified through that same faith!

NickCharles
October 19th, 2015, 08:32 PM
I am also justified through that same faith!


So now you know you are elect. Calvinists don't have some mystical way to determine election.

Cedarbay
October 19th, 2015, 09:24 PM
I am also justified through that same faith!Praise God!

Robert Pate
October 20th, 2015, 08:28 AM
I know I'm justified by faith because I have faith, and God says that's how He justifies.


Faith in what? Faith in John Calvin?

The only faith that saves is faith in Christ and his Gospel.

If you had faith in Christ and his Gospel you would not need faith in John Calvin.

NickCharles
October 20th, 2015, 09:00 AM
Faith in what? Faith in John Calvin?



The only faith that saves is faith in Christ and his Gospel.



If you had faith in Christ and his Gospel you would not need faith in John Calvin.


I don't have faith in John Calvin. I have faith in Jesus Christ.

So now that you know, you can stop your lying.

Robert Pate
October 20th, 2015, 09:05 AM
I don't have faith in John Calvin. I have faith in Jesus Christ.

So now that you know, you can stop your lying.

If you had saving faith in Christ you would not need Calvinism.

Something is wrong with your faith.

There is no room for Calvinism in the Gospel.

NickCharles
October 20th, 2015, 09:09 AM
If you had saving faith in Christ you would not need Calvinism.



Something is wrong with your faith.



There is no room for Calvinism in the Gospel.


I never said I need John Calvin. That's your false accusation.

beloved57
October 20th, 2015, 09:17 AM
If you had saving faith in Christ you would not need Calvinism.

Something is wrong with your faith.

There is no room for Calvinism in the Gospel.

If you had saving Faith you would embrace Calvinism, the Truths of Tulip ! By you not embracing them, shows that your faith is not of God !

Robert Pate
October 20th, 2015, 04:17 PM
I never said I need John Calvin. That's your false accusation.

You need the doctrine of predestination and cannot see how anyone can be saved without it.

NickCharles
October 20th, 2015, 04:18 PM
You need the doctrine of predestination and cannot see how anyone can be saved without it.


That has nothing to do with my trusting Christ for salvation.

Robert Pate
October 20th, 2015, 04:21 PM
That has nothing to do with my trusting Christ for salvation.

Sure it does.

Predestinationism is a perversion of the Gospel.

NickCharles
October 20th, 2015, 04:27 PM
Sure it does.



Predestinationism is a perversion of the Gospel.


But don't you preach that one must trust Christ to be saved?

beloved57
October 21st, 2015, 06:10 AM
Sure it does.

Predestinationism is a perversion of the Gospel.

Predestination is part of the Gospel of Gods Grace, without it, no Gospel! Ephesians 1:4-7!

Robert Pate
October 21st, 2015, 07:45 AM
But don't you preach that one must trust Christ to be saved?

Christians trust in Christ, they do not trust in the false doctrines of men.

The Gospel and Calvinism are opposing doctrines.

NickCharles
October 21st, 2015, 07:47 AM
Christians trust in Christ, they do not trust in the false doctrines of men.



The Gospel and Calvinism are opposing doctrines.


I trust in Christ. I'm not sure why you are not comprehending that.

Robert Pate
October 21st, 2015, 07:55 AM
I trust in Christ. I'm not sure why you are not comprehending that.

The people that are Christians on this Forum usually don't have a religion.

Religion and the Gospel of Christ don't mix.

The minute that you add religion to the Gospel, you have perverted it.

NickCharles
October 21st, 2015, 07:56 AM
The people that are Christians on this Forum usually don't have a religion.



Religion and the Gospel of Christ don't mix.



The minute that you add religion to the Gospel, you have perverted it.


I haven't added religion.

Robert Pate
October 21st, 2015, 08:04 AM
I haven't added religion.


You have added doctrines that are contrary to the "Historical Gospel" of Jesus Christ and the Bible.

NickCharles
October 21st, 2015, 08:11 AM
You have added doctrines that are contrary to the "Historical Gospel" of Jesus Christ and the Bible.


After I was saved. Are you saying, now, that I've lost my salvation?

Robert Pate
October 21st, 2015, 08:25 AM
After I was saved. Are you saying, now, that I've lost my salvation?

One of the works of the Holy Spirit is to teach you the truth, John 14:26.

If you don't have the truth, you may not have the Holy Spirit who is the teacher of truth.

NickCharles
October 21st, 2015, 08:26 AM
One of the works of the Holy Spirit is to teach you the truth, John 14:26.



If you don't have the truth, you may not have the Holy Spirit who is the teacher of truth.


Since you can't defend your position with any sort of consistency, maybe it's you that does not have the truth.

Robert Pate
October 21st, 2015, 08:34 AM
Since you can't defend your position with any sort of consistency, maybe it's you that does not have the truth.

I have the truth. Evidence that one has the truth is that they embrace the "Historical Gospel" of Jesus Christ as their only means of salvation.

I am already seated in heavenly places in Jesus Christ, Ephesians 2:6.

NickCharles
October 21st, 2015, 08:38 AM
I have the truth. Evidence that one has the truth is that they embrace the "Historical Gospel" of Jesus Christ as their only means of salvation.



I am already seated in heavenly places in Jesus Christ, Ephesians 2:6.


I embrace the historical gospel as proclaimed by Jesus and His apostles. And I can defend it consistently. You have shown that you cannot even explain how 1 John 2:2 and John 3:36 are not contradictory in your theology. You cannot explain how "world" means the same thing all through 1 John 2.

Let's see you do those things without insulting me, or posting something that has nothing to do with it, and we will see if what you embrace is the truth.

Shasta
October 21st, 2015, 11:50 AM
God's Mercy is only upon His Vessels of Mercy,
which He had afore prepared unto glory Rom. 9:23!

~~~~~

What makes a person a "vessel of wrath?"

beloved57
October 21st, 2015, 12:02 PM
What makes a person a "vessel of wrath?"

Gods Sovereign Will to make them so !

Shasta
October 21st, 2015, 12:18 PM
I'm not the one that has to change what Paul says in Romans 9. There's no way to come to your conclusion based a straight reading of the text. I used to believe as you, so I am quite familiar with the gymnastics required to change what Paul says.

The idea of predestination and God's providence over all thing comes from scripture. I understand your need to marginalize it. But it's there. You just need to believe what is said, even if it goes against your presuppositions.

Whether you believe Paul had Jeremiah in mind or not when he wrote Romans 9 does not detract from the fact that Jeremiah 18 is divine truth. What is written there does not come from a bible commentator or preacher but from the mouth of God. This is God’s explanation about how He deals with nations and peoples. Because of this it is perfectly acceptable to compare the truths found there to what the Bible says elsewhere on the same subject.

7 If at any time I declare concerning a nation or a kingdom, that I will pluck up and break down and destroy it, 8 and if that nation, concerning which I have spoken, turns from its evil, I will relent of the disaster that I intended to do to it (Jeremiah 18:7-8)

9 And if at any time I declare concerning a nation or a kingdom that I will build and plant it, 10 and if it does evil in my sight, not listening to my voice, then I will relent of the good that I had intended to do to it. (Jeremiah 18:9-10)

It does not take any verbal “gymnastics” or sophisticated methods of interpretation to understand what is being said here, nor is it a long passage. All we need to do is visualize what the potter was doing. The meaning of that experience is given to us. The interpretation is as follows: God by His prophetic decrees determines the rise and fall of nations…but whether those nations will finally be the recipients of divine wrath or mercy depends on the choices made by the people of that nation. By changing its response to God a nation can alter its destiny. Here is both justice and mercy in balance...but it is not Calvinistic determinism.

Now I happen to believe that God foreknows what the decisions of men will be. At the same time I do not believe this hinders human freedom. This was, in fact, the unanimous opinion of the Early Church until Augustine (one of the founders of Western Catholicism) brought determinism into the Church from his Gnostic past. Calvin, we must remember, was an avid student of Augustine and quoted him some 120 times in his Institutes

It stretches the imagination to suppose that Paul, using the imagery of pottery to express the changing status of nations in God's economy did not have Jeremiah 18 in mind. The two passages are thematically, almost identical. Jeremiah 18 concerns Israel (the only godly nation around at the time) and some unnamed Gentile nation. Romans 9 is about the Gentiles and Jews of the First Century. The Jews had a long history with God and had received many promises and blessings. The Gentiles had no history with God had received no promises (Romans 9:4-5). Nevertheless, at the time Paul was writing the two seemed to have switched places. The Jews (as a nation) had rejected Jesus as Messiah and having grieved the Spirit were not getting what they had been promised (1 Thessalonians 2:14-16). Instead Gentiles were being grafted in. Paul was trying to answer how God could do that when He was truthful and faithful. Jeremiah could have answered that. God can change His decrees.

I often get the impression that some Christian determinists think God is in the business of shaping people into sinners (vessels of wrath), as if the heavenly Potter’s fingers are guided by visions of murderers, pedophiles and idolators. In Jeremiah 18, the vessel’s resistance or cooperation occurs prior to their being fashioned into one shape or another. The “shape” of a vessel thus does not refers to their nature or habits of life but to the USE they are put to in the plan of God.

Romans also speaks of honorable or dishonorable use being made of the "vessels" Smashing a pot is not using it for anything nor does it bring God honor if God is responsible for making it that way.

NickCharles
October 21st, 2015, 12:23 PM
Whether you believe Paul had Jeremiah in mind or not when he wrote Romans 9 does not detract from the fact that Jeremiah 18 is divine truth. What is written there does not come from a bible commentator or preacher but from the mouth of God. This is God’s explanation about how He deals with nations and peoples. Because of this it is perfectly acceptable to compare the truths found there to what the Bible says elsewhere on the same subject.

7 If at any time I declare concerning a nation or a kingdom, that I will pluck up and break down and destroy it, 8 and if that nation, concerning which I have spoken, turns from its evil, I will relent of the disaster that I intended to do to it (Jeremiah 18:7-8)

9 And if at any time I declare concerning a nation or a kingdom that I will build and plant it, 10 and if it does evil in my sight, not listening to my voice, then I will relent of the good that I had intended to do to it. (Jeremiah 18:9-10)

It does not take any verbal “gymnastics” or sophisticated methods of interpretation to understand what is being said here, nor is it a long passage. All we need to do is visualize what the potter was doing. The meaning of that experience is given to us. The interpretation is as follows: God by His prophetic decrees determines the rise and fall of nations…but whether those nations will finally be the recipients of divine wrath or mercy depends on the choices made by the people of that nation. By changing its response to God a nation can alter its destiny. Here is both justice and mercy in balance...but it is not Calvinistic determinism.

Now I happen to believe that God foreknows what the decisions of men will be. At the same time I do not believe this hinders human freedom. This was, in fact, the unanimous opinion of the Early Church until Augustine (one of the founders of Western Catholicism) brought determinism into the Church from his Gnostic past. Calvin, we must remember, was an avid student of Augustine and quoted him some 120 times in his Institutes

It stretches the imagination to suppose that Paul, using the imagery of pottery to express the changing status of nations in God's economy did not have Jeremiah 18 in mind. The two passages are thematically, almost identical. Jeremiah 18 concerns Israel (the only godly nation around at the time) and some unnamed Gentile nation. Romans 9 is about the Gentiles and Jews of the First Century. The Jews had a long history with God and had received many promises and blessings. The Gentiles had no history with God had received no promises (Romans 9:4-5). Nevertheless, at the time Paul was writing the two seemed to have switched places. The Jews (as a nation) had rejected Jesus as Messiah and having grieved the Spirit were not getting what they had been promised (1 Thessalonians 2:14-16). Instead Gentiles were being grafted in. Paul was trying to answer how God could do that when He was truthful and faithful. Jeremiah could have answered that. God can change His decrees.

I often get the impression that some Christian determinists think God is in the business of shaping people into sinners (vessels of wrath), as if the heavenly Potter’s fingers are guided by visions of murderers, pedophiles and idolators. In Jeremiah 18, the vessel’s resistance or cooperation occurs prior to their being fashioned into one shape or another. The “shape” of a vessel thus does not refers to their nature or habits of life but to the USE they are put to in the plan of God.

Romans also speaks of honorable or dishonorable use being made of the "vessels" Smashing a pot is not using it for anything nor does it bring God honor if God is responsible for making it that way.


Since we aren't Israel, Jeremiah isn't applicable to us.

Romans 9 is, though, as written.

Shasta
October 21st, 2015, 12:24 PM
Gods Sovereign Will to make them so !

So when a person becomes a rapist, a murderer, an abuser of children that is because of God's will?

Shasta
October 21st, 2015, 12:25 PM
Since we aren't Israel, Jeremiah isn't applicable to us.

Romans 9 is, though, as written.

Jeremiah 18 concerns several nations only one of which is Israel.

beloved57
October 21st, 2015, 12:36 PM
So when a person becomes a rapist, a murderer, an abuser of children that is because of God's will?

Of course!

Bright Raven
October 21st, 2015, 12:41 PM
Of course!

God is love yet you say one becomes a rapist or murderer because of God? God does not come to steal kill or destroy. Satan does.

Shasta
October 21st, 2015, 12:41 PM
Since we aren't Israel, Jeremiah isn't applicable to us.

Romans 9 is, though, as written.

To the Apostles the OT was the scripture, divinely inspired and profitable for doctrine. We can certainly build doctrines based upon a correct interpretation of what is written there. You are also parting from the views of John Calvin who believed along with the other Reformers in the verbal plenary inspiration of Old and New Testament writings.

NickCharles
October 21st, 2015, 12:42 PM
To the Apostles the OT was the scripture, divinely inspired and profitable for doctrine. We can certainly build doctrines based upon a correct interpretation of what is written there. You are also parting from the views of John Calvin who believed along with the other Reformers in the verbal plenary inspiration of Old and New Testament writings.


I never said the scriptures weren't inspired. I said we are not Israel.

Shasta
October 21st, 2015, 12:44 PM
Of course!

So God envisions and determines what Jeffrey Dahmer's menu will be before the foundation of the earth. He designs Hitler and places him into circumstances that are certain to lead him to try to commit genocide.

NickCharles
October 21st, 2015, 12:46 PM
Jeremiah 18 concerns several nations only one of which is Israel.


We aren't those nations, either.

beloved57
October 21st, 2015, 12:52 PM
So God envisions and determines what Jeffrey Dahmer's menu will be before the foundation of the earth. He designs Hitler and places him into circumstances that are certain to lead him to try to commit genocide.

You don't believe in the same God as I do ! My God made the Vessels of Wrath to condemn them for their sins against His law!

Shasta
October 21st, 2015, 12:54 PM
I never said the scriptures weren't inspired. I said we are not Israel.

If you read Jeremiah 18 it is apparent that He was talking about a nation that was (generally) obedient and had been given promises and blessings and another about which judgments had already been prophesied. Which one was Israel is not important. The scriptures are putting forth a pattern of how God deals with nations. You cannot limit it by saying "we are not Israel" since only one of the two nations he mentioned could have been Israel.

To say this is not how God deals with people anymore invalidates and makes irrelevant the OT when it is the foundation upon which the NT was built. That broad sweeping statement does not affirm the inspiration of the OT which no part should be considered past unless there is a precedent such as when Jesus said "you have heard it said...but I say."

You have tried to make a quick and easy point and, in so doing undermined the authority of the Word. Calvin and Luther would never have said such a thing just to win an argument.

Shasta
October 21st, 2015, 12:57 PM
We aren't those nations, either.

So basically none of the principles elucidated in the Prophets applies to us because we are not Israel, Edom, Syria, Assyria, Babylon, or any of the individuals that God addressed His words to.

NickCharles
October 21st, 2015, 12:58 PM
If you read Jeremiah 18 it is apparent that He was talking about a nation that was (generally) obedient and had been given promises and blessings and another about which judgments had already been prophesied. Which one was Israel is not important. The scriptures are putting forth a pattern of how God deals with nations. You cannot limit it by saying "we are not Israel" since only one of the two nations he mentioned could have been Israel.



To say this is not how God deals with people anymore invalidates and makes irrelevant the OT when it is the foundation upon which the NT was built. That broad sweeping statement does not affirm the inspiration of the OT which no part should be considered past unless there is a precedent such as when Jesus said "you have heard it said...but I say."



You have tried to make a quick and easy point and, in so doing undermined the authority of the Word. Calvin and Luther would never have said such a thing just to win an argument.


I've taken the scripture at face value. The OT concerned Israel as a nation. My salvation is not dependent on God's view of America. What promises and blessings has He given to the US?

NickCharles
October 21st, 2015, 01:00 PM
So basically none of the principles elucidated in the Prophets applies to us because we are not Israel, Edom, Syria, Assyria, Babylon, or any of the individuals that God addressed His words to.


Why would they be? Are those nations children of the promise? Not even all of Abraham's descents are in view as not all are children of the promise.

Shasta
October 21st, 2015, 01:01 PM
You don't believe in the same God as I do ! My God made the Vessels of Wrath to condemn them for their sins against His law!

Why would God need to make a vessel soley for the purpose of smashing it?

Shasta
October 21st, 2015, 01:03 PM
Why would they be? Are those nations children of the promise? Not even all of Abraham's descents are in view as not all are children of the promise.

So you deny that Jeremiah 18 describes how God deals with nations

1Mind1Spirit
October 21st, 2015, 01:04 PM
Why would God need to make a vessel soley for the purpose of smashing it?

Why do you think you get to ask?

NickCharles
October 21st, 2015, 01:10 PM
So you deny that Jeremiah 18 describes how God deals with nations


Yes. That is not the context. And that has nothing to do with Romans 9 because Paul doesn't mention nations.