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meshak
October 12th, 2015, 03:05 PM
No one can prove this is biblical using Jesus' word because Jesus did not teach it.

Show us OSAS believers if you think you can quote Jesus' word to prove it.

This is purely man-made doctrine.

It is not of Jesus.

Bright Raven
October 12th, 2015, 03:08 PM
No one can prove this is biblical using Jesus' word because Jesus did not teach it.

Show us OSAS believers if you think you can quote Jesus' word to prove it.

This is purely man-made doctrine.

It is not of Jesus.

John 10:27-29 New King James Version (NKJV)

27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me.
28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand.
29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Fatherís hand.

glorydaz
October 12th, 2015, 03:08 PM
No one can prove this is biblical using Jesus' word because Jesus did not teach it.

Show us OSAS believers if you think you can quote Jesus' word to prove it.

This is purely man-made doctrine.

It is not of Jesus.

And the heathens will now be heard. Watch the fear and doubt that is the only hope humanists can ever accomplish.

Totton Linnet
October 12th, 2015, 03:12 PM
No one can prove this is biblical using Jesus' word because Jesus did not teach it.

Show us OSAS believers if you think you can quote Jesus' word to prove it.

This is purely man-made doctrine.

It is not of Jesus.

First get saved then you will know what you are talking about....

Angel4Truth
October 12th, 2015, 03:25 PM
No one can prove this is biblical using Jesus' word because Jesus did not teach it.

Show us OSAS believers if you think you can quote Jesus' word to prove it.

This is purely man-made doctrine.

It is not of Jesus.

Jesus's words proving it:

John 5:24 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life

John 6:29 Therefore they said to Him, "What shall we do, so that we may work the works of God?" 29 Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent."

Get thee a bible and read it. The man made doctrine that He didnt grant life eternal to those who believe, is your man made doctrine. Jesus has refuted you.

/thread, youre welcome!

Bright Raven
October 12th, 2015, 03:27 PM
Four rebuttals without an answer. Interesting.

meshak
October 12th, 2015, 04:07 PM
Jesus's words proving it:

John 5:24 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life

John 6:29 Therefore they said to Him, "What shall we do, so that we may work the works of God?" 29 Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent."

Get thee a bible and read it. The man made doctrine that He didnt grant life eternal to those who believe, is your man made doctrine. Jesus has refuted you.

/thread, youre welcome!

Your interpretation is out of context because Jesus says "if you love Me, keep my commands".

There are tons and tons of Jesus word to be faithful to Him until the end.

If we don't love Him by respecting His word and obey them until the end, we will not be saved, period.

So it is not OSAS.

Jesus is the Lord, not your man-made doctrines.

Angel4Truth
October 12th, 2015, 04:32 PM
Your interpretation is out of context because Jesus says "if you love Me, keep my commands".

He commanded we believe, and specifically said what the works of God are, there is no wiggle room for you and that is to believe in Him.


There are tons and tons of Jesus word to be faithful to Him until the end.

If we don't love Him by respecting His word and obey them until the end, we will not be saved, period.

So it is not OSAS.

Jesus is the Lord, not your man-made doctrines.

Clearly you do not know what "does not come into judgment means, and what "has passed from death to life" means.

Im going by His words, you arent.

Oh and the context of matthew that YOU quoted out of context, is about the last days and its speaking directly to the jews:

See: Matthew 24:16 then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains.

The context is when the focus shifts back to Israel after the time of the gentiles has been fulfilled.

Do you need some help with comprehension? Hooked on phonics (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hooked_on_Phonics) includes reading comprehension exercises - i highly recommend it to children and those who have reading issues and those in which english isnt their first language.

Grosnick Marowbe
October 12th, 2015, 04:47 PM
Your interpretation is out of context because Jesus says "if you love Me, keep my commands".

There are tons and tons of Jesus word to be faithful to Him until the end.

If we don't love Him by respecting His word and obey them until the end, we will not be saved, period.

So it is not OSAS.

Jesus is the Lord, not your man-made doctrines.

So, we're to believe that, little old Meshak, with her silly hat, is the
only one who keeps "Tons and tons" of Jesus word? Even though
she rejects 95% of the Bible? Whoa! little Meshak sure thinks
highly of herself.

Grosnick Marowbe
October 12th, 2015, 04:49 PM
One has to wonder, is Meshak a real person or just a figment of
someones bizarre sense of humor?

Grosnick Marowbe
October 12th, 2015, 04:50 PM
Meshak, name just a half a ton of the words of Jesus that you obey?

meshak
October 12th, 2015, 05:29 PM
Im going by His words, you arent.

You can quote all you want without contextual understanding.

that's what all man-made doctrines are.

Jesus did not endorse OSAS.

You have to be faithful to Him until the end. End is not yet come.

Ask Mr. Religion
October 12th, 2015, 05:34 PM
No one can prove this is biblical using Jesus' word because Jesus did not teach it.

Show us OSAS believers if you think you can quote Jesus' word to prove it.

This is purely man-made doctrine.

It is not of Jesus.
OSAS - once saved, always saved.

What does saved mean in your view? Please explain.

AMR

meshak
October 12th, 2015, 05:37 PM
OSAS - once saved, always saved.

What does saved mean in your view? Please explain.

AMR

If you are saved, you will be in God's kingdom.

It is that simple, sir.

Ask Mr. Religion
October 12th, 2015, 05:39 PM
So those in heaven were those that were saved? Correct?

AMR

drbrumley
October 12th, 2015, 05:41 PM
OSAS - once saved, always saved.

What does saved mean in your view? Please explain.

AMR

saved=rescued

Ask Mr. Religion
October 12th, 2015, 05:42 PM
saved=rescued

Are you meshak? Manners, please. ;)

AMR

drbrumley
October 12th, 2015, 05:43 PM
Are you meshak? Manners, please. ;)

AMR

Sorry, just trying to help her out, you know manners and all.:up:

patrick jane
October 12th, 2015, 05:46 PM
John 10:27-29 New King James Version (NKJV)

27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me.
28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand.
29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Fatherís hand.

excellent post BR !!! EOT

meshak
October 12th, 2015, 05:46 PM
saved=rescued
If you are saved, you will be with God in His kingdom.

This is second life.

You should not be asking this kind of question if you are true Jesus' followers.

drbrumley
October 12th, 2015, 05:47 PM
If you are saved, you will be with God in His kingdom.

This is second life.

You should not be asking this kind of question if you are true Jesus' followers.

Um, do you see a question mark anywhere in that post? I wasn't asking, I was telling.

meshak
October 12th, 2015, 05:47 PM
My faith in Jesus is solid that not any man-made doctrines can shake it, dears.

meshak
October 12th, 2015, 05:48 PM
Um, do you see a question mark anywhere in that post? I wasn't asking, I was telling.

I was telling too. Mine is more clear and simple definition.

patrick jane
October 12th, 2015, 05:48 PM
My faith in Jesus is solid that not any man-made doctrines can shake it, dears.

AMR asked you a question meshak - manners

Ask Mr. Religion
October 12th, 2015, 05:49 PM
So those in heaven were those that were saved? Correct?

AMR


If you are saved, you will be with God in His kingdom.


If possible, can we return to my question?

AMR

meshak
October 12th, 2015, 05:50 PM
If possible, can we return to my question?

AMR

I just did. You don't accept simple concept of salvation?

It is your problem then.

drbrumley
October 12th, 2015, 05:50 PM
I was telling too. Mine is more clear and simple definition.

:hammer:

meshak
October 12th, 2015, 05:51 PM
AMR asked you a question meshak - manners

You guys cannot seem to read simple explanation.

sad.

Ask Mr. Religion
October 12th, 2015, 05:52 PM
I just did. You don't accept simple concept of salvation?

It is your problem then.

I must have misunderstood.

So, for you, "saved" means being in heaven. Correct?

AMR

meshak
October 12th, 2015, 05:55 PM
This is salvation, everyone:

"For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten son that whoever believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life."

this is very basic of Christianity.

It is just amazing that not too many seem to understand this simple Jesus' statement.

drbrumley
October 12th, 2015, 05:57 PM
This is salvation, everyone:

"For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten son that whoever believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life."

this is very basic of Christianity.

It is just amazing that not too many seem to understand this simple Jesus' statement.

I don't see the words "works for salvation" as you preach in your verse.

Ask Mr. Religion
October 12th, 2015, 06:00 PM
I must have misunderstood.

So, for you, "saved" means being in heaven. Correct?

AMR


This is salvation, everyone:

"For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten son that whoever believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life."

this is very basic of Christianity.

It is just amazing that not too many seem to understand this simple Jesus' statement.Am I being unfair to ask for a simple response to my simple question?

So, for you, "saved" means being in heaven. Is this a correct statement of your understanding of what "saved" means?

After all, you started the thread, OSAS, and it should be required that we all understand what you mean by what "saved" means since the word appears twice in "OSAS".

AMR

meshak
October 12th, 2015, 06:01 PM
I don't see the words "works for salvation" as you preach in your verse.

Jesus explained clearly how love Him.

If you believe in Him, you will love Him.

And Jesus says "if you love Me, keep My commands". This is clearly work salvation.

You need to know what Jesus teaches.

Jesus taught us how to be saved.

meshak
October 12th, 2015, 06:04 PM
Am I being unfair to ask for a simple response to my simple question?

So, for you, "saved" means being in heaven. Is this a correct statement of your understanding of what "saved" means?

After all, you started the thread, OSAS, and it should be required that we all understand what you mean by what "saved" means since the word appears twice in "OSAS".

AMR

AMR, I don't take trick or dishonest questions. It is so manipulative, derail and focusing away from my point.

I know you are super good at that. That's what "learned" people do. The Bible says knowledge puffs up, sir.

meshak
October 12th, 2015, 06:10 PM
I will not take a bait of Scripture quoting war.

I go by contextual understanding of Jesus' word.

meshak
October 12th, 2015, 06:12 PM
You can make up all kinds of doctrines misusing the scripture.

drbrumley
October 12th, 2015, 06:20 PM
Jesus explained clearly how love Him.

If you believe in Him, you will love Him.

And Jesus says "if you love Me, keep My commands". This is clearly work salvation.

You need to know what Jesus teaches.

Jesus taught us how to be saved.

Once again, your hat must be on to tight. We don't work to be saved. We are saved to do GOOD WORKS!!! Get the difference? probably not.

musterion
October 12th, 2015, 06:23 PM
You're all being trolled. She knows exactly what you're asking, which is why she won't answer it head on.

Grosnick Marowbe
October 12th, 2015, 06:26 PM
My faith in Jesus is solid that not any man-made doctrines can shake it, dears.

However, you keep telling us that, you don't know if you're
saved? You keep saying it's up to Jesus? You contradict
yourself?

Grosnick Marowbe
October 12th, 2015, 06:28 PM
You're all being trolled. She knows exactly what you're asking, which is why she won't answer it head on.

I wouldn't doubt it, if she ended up being one or more different posters.
Notice how sometimes she's very articulate and other times she speaks
in broken English? Something isn't right?

musterion
October 12th, 2015, 06:29 PM
Notice how sometimes she's very articulate and other times she speaks in broken English? Something isn't right?

Ayup. There's more to her than meets the eye. Less, too.

meshak
October 12th, 2015, 06:32 PM
Once again, your hat must be on to tight. We don't work to be saved. We are saved to do GOOD WORKS!!! Get the difference? probably not.

You just dismissed what Jesus says.

you don't seem to be interested in what Jesus says, and claiming to be true and saved.

Grosnick Marowbe
October 12th, 2015, 06:32 PM
She NEVER answers questions. Perhaps, "they" don't want to contradict themselves.
It may be another member of her family?

meshak
October 12th, 2015, 06:33 PM
You're all being trolled. She knows exactly what you're asking, which is why she won't answer it head on.

This is my thread, you don't dictate it.

You are the troll.

Grosnick Marowbe
October 12th, 2015, 06:33 PM
Ayup. There's more to her than meets the eye. Less, too.

I get what you're saying.

musterion
October 12th, 2015, 06:35 PM
This is my thread, you don't dictate it.

I dictated nothing.


You are the troll.

You stay off my threads, I'll stay off yours. Deal?

meshak
October 12th, 2015, 06:38 PM
I dictated nothing.



You stay off my threads, I'll stay off yours. Deal?



I am not interested in your threads which don't worth to read anyway.

Grosnick Marowbe
October 12th, 2015, 06:38 PM
Meshak is pretty aggravated for someone who obeys 100%?

Grosnick Marowbe
October 12th, 2015, 06:39 PM
I am not interested in your threads which don't worth to read anyway.

This is "Broken English Meshak." Later, she'll sound like a college Grad.

musterion
October 12th, 2015, 06:43 PM
I am not interested in your threads

That's a lie.

meshak
October 12th, 2015, 06:44 PM
That's a lie.

why are you still here?

musterion
October 12th, 2015, 06:44 PM
This is "Broken English Meshak." Later, she'll sound like a college Grad.

Ayup.

Speaking of...as demented as one person would be to do what she has apparently made a career of doing, how sick would it be if she really is getting part-time help?

Grosnick Marowbe
October 12th, 2015, 06:45 PM
She's feels like she's being cornered, and left. She never answers any questions.
She thinks everybody is out to trap her with, "simple questions." So, she won't
answer anything.

musterion
October 12th, 2015, 06:45 PM
why are you still here?

Talkin' to Gros.

Put me on Ignore, since nothing I say is of interest to you.

meshak
October 12th, 2015, 06:46 PM
You guys can not come up with decent refutation.

And so you go down with slandering remarks.

so typical.

That's what happens when you disrespect Jesus' word.

Grosnick Marowbe
October 12th, 2015, 06:47 PM
"Broken English Meshak" is very angry now and will threaten to place
everyone on ignore. That's her M.O.

meshak
October 12th, 2015, 06:47 PM
Talkin' to Gros.

Put me on Ignore, since nothing I say is of interest to you.

Take your mocking comments elsewhere.

musterion
October 12th, 2015, 06:47 PM
You guys can not come up with decent refutation.

AMR and Brumley refuted you.

musterion
October 12th, 2015, 06:48 PM
Take your mocking comments elsewhere.

Not done talkin' to Gros.

meshak
October 12th, 2015, 06:49 PM
AMR and Brumley refuted you.

Nope, they did not. they just disregarded Jesus' word.

Grosnick Marowbe
October 12th, 2015, 06:49 PM
You guys can not come up with decent refutation.

And so you go down with slandering remarks.

so typical.

That's what happens when you disrespect Jesus' word.

So, by disrespecting you, we're disrespecting Jesus? She won't answer of course.

musterion
October 12th, 2015, 06:49 PM
"Broken English Meshak" is very angry now and will threaten to place
everyone on ignore. That's her M.O.

By the way, you know whatever happened to Jason0047?

meshak
October 12th, 2015, 06:50 PM
Ma-made doctrine pushers always go down to mocking the messenger.

this what happens when you disrespect Jesus' word.

Grosnick Marowbe
October 12th, 2015, 06:50 PM
Ayup.

Speaking of...as demented as one person would be to do what she has apparently made a career of doing, how sick would it be if she really is getting part-time help?

It's called, "Being a phony."

musterion
October 12th, 2015, 06:51 PM
Ma-made doctrine pushers always go down to mocking the messenger.

this what happens when you disrespect Jesus' word.

You refuted yourself when you posted John 3:16, which was strange because you said you believe John was wrong like Paul.

Grosnick Marowbe
October 12th, 2015, 06:51 PM
By the way, you know whatever happened to Jason0047?

No. I haven't seen him around.

Grosnick Marowbe
October 12th, 2015, 06:52 PM
You refuted yourself when you posted John 3:16, which was strange because you said you believe John was wrong like Paul.

That's true. She doesn't like Paul or John.

musterion
October 12th, 2015, 06:52 PM
No. I haven't seen him around.

Yeah, me neither. Curious what happened to him. He was dead wrong and occasionally evasive, but I think he truly meant well. Unlike some others.

Grosnick Marowbe
October 12th, 2015, 06:53 PM
Meshak only trusts in Matthew, Mark, and Luke.

Grosnick Marowbe
October 12th, 2015, 06:54 PM
Meshak always says, she doesn't know if she's saved.

musterion
October 12th, 2015, 06:54 PM
Meshak only trusts in Matthew, Mark, and Luke.

So it's weird she'd quote John. Maybe 2nd shift Meshak didn't get 1st shift Meshak's memo.

meshak
October 12th, 2015, 06:54 PM
Musterion, your comments are just disgusting because you misuse Jesus' word to push your own doctrine..

I pity you.

your comments seem paranoid being exposed.

As you wish you are off to ignore.

good day.

Grosnick Marowbe
October 12th, 2015, 06:55 PM
So it's weird she'd quote John. Maybe 2nd shift Meshak didn't get 1st shift Meshak's memo.

More than likely.

musterion
October 12th, 2015, 06:56 PM
Meshak always says, she doesn't know if she's saved.

I think she quit saying that...she now says she won't say if saved, like that's any different.

drbrumley
October 12th, 2015, 06:56 PM
Meshak always says, she doesn't know if she's saved.

Meshak, do you have your spiritual birth certificate?

Grosnick Marowbe
October 12th, 2015, 06:56 PM
Musterion, your comments are just disgusting because you misuse Jesus' word to push your own doctrine..

I pity you.

your comments seem paranoid being exposed.

As you wish you are off to ignore.

good day.

What I tell ya. She's placing posters on ignore like clockwork.

musterion
October 12th, 2015, 06:57 PM
What I tell ya. She's placing posters on ignore like clockwork.

Yeah, but Glory or Tam (maybe both) say she never ignores those she says she ignores.

Grosnick Marowbe
October 12th, 2015, 06:58 PM
Musterion, your comments are just disgusting because you misuse Jesus' word to push your own doctrine..

I pity you.

your comments seem paranoid being exposed.

As you wish you are off to ignore.

good day.

Put me on ignore too?

Grosnick Marowbe
October 12th, 2015, 06:59 PM
Yeah, but Glory or Tam (maybe both) say she never ignores those she says she ignores.

Yeah. She's sneaky.

Grosnick Marowbe
October 12th, 2015, 07:00 PM
Hey Meshak, why not put yourself on ignore? Just a suggestion?

musterion
October 12th, 2015, 07:03 PM
Heh.

drbrumley
October 12th, 2015, 07:03 PM
Meshak, do you have your spiritual birth certificate?

meshak
October 12th, 2015, 07:03 PM
Salvation is simple concept, yet so many Christians make it complicated, pretending to know they are the true ones.

Jesus' teachings are simple and clear, in overall.

Jesus says "if you love Me, keep My commands". This is work salvation.

Jesus also says we know them by their fruit. Jesus does not endorse lip service faith.

Jesus also says if we don't produce fruit, we will be cut down and burned.

So OSAS doctrine is clearly wicked doctrine. It is lip service based salvation which is not of Jesus.

meshak
October 12th, 2015, 07:04 PM
Meshak, do you have your spiritual birth certificate?

It is in my heart.

musterion
October 12th, 2015, 07:04 PM
Jesus says "if you love Me, keep My commands". This is work salvation.

That's got to be the most honest post she's ever made.

drbrumley
October 12th, 2015, 07:04 PM
Salvation is simple concept, yet so many Christians make it complicated, pretending to know they are the true ones.

Jesus' teachings are simple and clear, in overall.

Jesus says "if you love Me, keep My commands". This is work salvation.

Jesus also says we know them by their fruit. Jesus does not endorse lip service faith.

Jesus also says if we don't produce fruit, we will be cut down and burned.

So OSAS doctrine is clearly wicked doctrine. It is lip service based salvation which is not of Jesus.
Meshak, do you have your spiritual birth certificate?

drbrumley
October 12th, 2015, 07:05 PM
It is in my heart.

Its also in the Word of God. Do you believe that?

meshak
October 12th, 2015, 07:07 PM
Its also in the Word of God. Do you believe that?
I am accountable only to Jesus, not anyone else or any organization.

You should know that, friend.

Jesus looks into our heart.

We cannot mock God.

drbrumley
October 12th, 2015, 07:08 PM
I am accountable only to Jesus, not anyone else or any organization.

You should know that, friend.

Jesus looks into our heart.

We cannot mock God.

No doubt. Praise God! But that didn't answer the question.

meshak
October 12th, 2015, 07:09 PM
No doubt. Praise God! But that didn't answer the question.

I did. I cannot help you that you don't accept my word.

Grosnick Marowbe
October 12th, 2015, 07:09 PM
That's got to be the most honest post she's ever made.

That's the kind she feels comfortable with. Evidently, she thinks
her good works will influence God to save her?

drbrumley
October 12th, 2015, 07:10 PM
I did. I cannot help you that you don't accept my word.

I asked if you believe your spiritual birth certificate can also be found in the Word of God

meshak
October 12th, 2015, 07:11 PM
I asked if you believe your spiritual birth certificate can also be found in the Word of God

Refrence?

Grosnick Marowbe
October 12th, 2015, 07:12 PM
No doubt. Praise God! But that didn't answer the question.

She never answers questions. Never. She's too busy placing posters
on ignore.

Grosnick Marowbe
October 12th, 2015, 07:12 PM
Refrence?

Do you mean; "reference?"

drbrumley
October 12th, 2015, 07:13 PM
Refrence?

"Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth My word, and believeth on Him that sent Me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life."

Do you believe this?

Grosnick Marowbe
October 12th, 2015, 07:15 PM
"Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth My word, and believeth on Him that sent Me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life."

Do you believe this?

She's about to place you on ignore.

meshak
October 12th, 2015, 07:17 PM
"Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth My word, and believeth on Him that sent Me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life."

Do you believe this?

Of course I do.

Listen, Jesus is my Lord and my Savior. He was sent by His Father to be our Lord and Savior.

It is written clearly. Why would I not believe?

I have been claiming to be His follower. You see my avatar statement? It says Christian.

It is sin to make mockery of His servants friend.

meshak
October 12th, 2015, 07:20 PM
And you know very well I have been claiming Jesus' name.

You are mockery of His servant, friend.

drbrumley
October 12th, 2015, 07:21 PM
Of course I do.

Listen, Jesus is my Lord and my Savior. He was sent by His Father to be our Lord and Savior.

It is written clearly. Why would I not believe?

I have bee claiming to be His follower.

It is sin to make mockery of His servants friend.

I'm not mocking you.

"Verily, verily, I say unto you" Jesus is speaking right?

meshak
October 12th, 2015, 07:24 PM
I'm not mocking you.

"Verily, verily, I say unto you" Jesus is speaking right?

what is your point? get to the point.

I don't like beating around the bush type talk.

drbrumley
October 12th, 2015, 07:24 PM
what is your point? get to the point.

I don't like beating around the bush type talk.

Did you or did you not say your not sure your saved?

meshak
October 12th, 2015, 07:25 PM
BTW, drb,

This thread is not about me, it is about doctrine of OSAS how it is not of Jesus.

So please stay on the topic.

thanks.

drbrumley
October 12th, 2015, 07:26 PM
BTW, drb,

This thread is not about me, it is about doctrine of OSAS how it is not of Jesus.

So please stay on the topic.

thanks.

What I am asking goes directly to the topic of this thread.

Ktoyou
October 12th, 2015, 07:28 PM
"Saved" is the key word here, who saves?

meshak
October 12th, 2015, 07:33 PM
Did you or did you not say your not sure your saved?

And I stated that Jesus is the Lord of who will be saved or not, not you not anyone else.

We are all trying be in God's kingdom.

Jesus is the Lord, remember?

But I understand you want to claim you are saved already. It is not biblical because Jesus is the Judge.

I also understand that you don't want to Jesus' judgments so you go ahead and claiming to be saved.

You need to know that we have no saying about our own salvation.

I also understand you have been told that you are saved by your church. Even if you don't attend the church, you still follow this corrupt tradition.

drbrumley
October 12th, 2015, 07:36 PM
And I stated that Jesus is the Lord of who will be saved or not, not you not anyone else.

We are all trying be in God's kingdom.

Jesus is the Lord, remember?

But I understand you want to claim you are saved already. It is not biblical because Jesus is the Judge.

I also understand that you don't want to Jesus' judgments so you go ahead and claiming to be saved.

You need to know that we have no saying about our own salvation.

I also understand you have been told that you are saved by your church. Even if you don't attend the church, you still follow this corrupt tradition.

No, it is pretty obvious you don't understand all that much about me.

meshak
October 12th, 2015, 07:40 PM
No, it is pretty obvious you don't understand all that much about me.

I am only assessing from your comments.

You are believer of OSAS. That shows a lot about your faith.

Narrow is the gate that leads to life and only a few inter into it.

You seem to be one of the majority obviously. so watch out, brother.

drbrumley
October 12th, 2015, 07:46 PM
Can I lose my salvation? (http://www.lwf.org/site/News2?page=NewsArticle&id=5339&news_iv_ctrl=1316)

Imagine a child whose family standing depends on his behavior. If he is good today, he stays; but if he misbehaves tomorrow, he has to leave. The love of his father is conditional. This child would be a neurotic mess.

Unfortunately, there are some Christians walking around in near despair because they fear losing their salvation, being kicked out of the family.

If you have been born again, you are part of God's family regardless of your behavior. But if you are born again, it will show in your behavior. If you belong to Christ, you are part of the family and can enjoy the emotional security our Heavenly Father wants us to experience.

Jesus said, "My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me, and I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand" (John 10:27-29).

Believing that one can lose one's salvation is saying that Christ's sacrifice on the cross was inadequate. On the cross, Christ said, "It is finished" (John 19:30). These words also mean "paid in full." He paid the full price. If you truly have accepted the gift of salvation, you are fully forgiven - for sins past, present and future. There is a difference in relationship and fellowship. Relationship is established by birth, and fellowship is established by life. A Christian out of fellowship may be chastened, but he cannot lose his relationship established by the new birth.

The Apostle John wrote, "These things I have written unto you that believe in the name of the Son of God; that you may know that eternal life" (1 John 5:13).

If you have salvation, you know it. And if you have it and know it, you can never lose it.

Nick M
October 12th, 2015, 07:54 PM
John 10:27-29 New King James Version (NKJV)

27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me.
28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand.
29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Fatherís hand.

Well that was easy. Second post meshak. It took a great deal of restraint to not tell her "go to hell" in my neg rep. I instead went with the more PC "repent".

meshak
October 12th, 2015, 07:56 PM
If you have salvation, you know it. And if you have it and know it, you can never lose it.

Jesus says not everyone who says "Lord, Lord... will not inter into His kingdom".

Self claimed salvation is not of Jesus, brother.

You ought to take heed of His word.

It is always safe to be humble.

Humility is must in Christianity.

drbrumley
October 12th, 2015, 07:57 PM
Jesus says not everyone who says "Lord, Lord... will not inter into His kingdom".

Self claimed salvation is not of Jesus, brother.

You ought to take heed of His word.

It is always safe to be humble.

Humility is must in Christianity.

I'm wondering if you even know what that means.

Nick M
October 12th, 2015, 07:57 PM
Get thee a bible and read it. The man made doctrine that He didnt grant life eternal to those who believe, is your man made doctrine. Jesus has refuted you.



This is why she rejects the Good News According to John.

meshak
October 12th, 2015, 08:02 PM
I'm wondering if you even know what that means.

Obviously self claimed saved ones don't know.

You seem to be working backward.

drbrumley
October 12th, 2015, 08:04 PM
Obviously self claimed saved ones don't know.

You seem to be working backward.

Obviously it isnt self claimed when scripture plainly says it. But it seems you reject it since you lean on your own understanding

meshak
October 12th, 2015, 08:07 PM
Obviously it isnt self claimed when scripture plainly says it. But it seems you reject it since you lean on your own understanding

You continually dismiss and disregard Jesus' authority to judge who will be saved or not.

Jesus is the Lord, brother.

He will judge all of us according to what we have done.

Have you read the book of revelation?

meshak
October 12th, 2015, 08:10 PM
drb,

It is obvious to me you are taking all popular traditional corrupt teachings.

You ought to read Jesus' word without preconceived notion of your church.

Your church doctrines cannot save you, brother.

drbrumley
October 12th, 2015, 08:13 PM
You continually dismiss and disregard Jesus' authority to judge who will be saved or not.

No. I actually RECOGNIZE Jesus' authority to judge me and He has. That's the difference. jesus has judged already. We were found DEAD. Do you even comprehend what I'm saying to you?


Jesus is the Lord, brother.

No kidding Sherlock!


He will judge all of us according to what we have done.

There are two judgements after we die, you realize this no?


Have you read the book of revelation?

Yep, maybe you should too at some point.

meshak
October 12th, 2015, 08:15 PM
No. I actually RECOGNIZE Jesus' authority to judge me and He has. That's the difference. jesus has judged already. We were found DEAD. Do you even comprehend what I'm saying to you?



No kidding Sherlock!



There are two judgements after we die, you realize this no?



Yep, maybe you should too at some point.

what is your point?

get to the point.

drbrumley
October 12th, 2015, 08:16 PM
what is your point?

Someone just shoot me please. :noid:

meshak
October 12th, 2015, 08:17 PM
Someone just shoot me please. :noid:

You seem to be in circle.

steko
October 12th, 2015, 08:22 PM
Someone just shoot me please. :noid:

Frustrating, ain't it? :Plain:

drbrumley
October 12th, 2015, 08:25 PM
Frustrating, ain't it? :Plain:

Thats an understatement:chuckle:

meshak
October 12th, 2015, 08:27 PM
Thats an understatement:chuckle:

don't be one the majority, brother.

drbrumley
October 12th, 2015, 08:31 PM
don't be one the majority, brother.

I'm not. Maybe you are part of the majority.

meshak
October 12th, 2015, 08:36 PM
I'm not. Maybe you are part of the majority.

I am not OSAS believer. This is popular doctrine of most protestant churches.

So you are one of the majority, brother.

You see, majority approve of the military too. I know you said you are pro-military too.

Most, if not all, OSAS believers are pro-military too.

So there you go. You are in the majority.

Ktoyou
October 12th, 2015, 09:27 PM
"Saved" is the key word here, who saves?

It would be nice to have a response; I guess I am not mainstream enough?

Grosnick Marowbe
October 12th, 2015, 09:42 PM
BTW, drb,

This thread is not about me, it is about doctrine of OSAS how it is not of Jesus.

So please stay on the topic.

thanks.

You have said several times, "I don't know if I'm Saved. That's up to Jesus. However, you "hope" that God will accept your "works."

Grosnick Marowbe
October 12th, 2015, 09:49 PM
I am not OSAS believer. This is popular doctrine of most protestant churches.

So you are one of the majority, brother.

You see, majority approve of the military too. I know you said you are pro-military too.

Most, if not all, OSAS believers are pro-military too.

So there you go. You are in the majority.

You also reject:

1) Trinatarians
2) The Apostle Paul
3) 95% of the Bible
4) The Grace Gospel
5) Posters on TOL
6) Reason and logic
7) Answering questions
8) Intelligent conversation
9) The U.S. military

You believe in:

1) Earning your own salvation through works
2) You believe the Jehovah Witnesses are godly people
3) You only trust the books of, Matthew, Mark, and Luke

This is Meshaks "Belief and Unbelief System."

Grosnick Marowbe
October 12th, 2015, 09:59 PM
You seem to be in circle.

You seem to be outside the circle of truth.

Grosnick Marowbe
October 12th, 2015, 10:03 PM
No, it is pretty obvious you don't understand all that much about me.

She thinks everybody on TOL is in the majority and she IS,
"The Minority." No one can hold a decent conversation with
her. She won't answer any questions and she always gets
angry and tells posters she's gonna put them on ignore.

She still peeks though.

Grosnick Marowbe
October 12th, 2015, 10:07 PM
This is why she rejects the Good News According to John.

She doesn't like John.

steko
October 12th, 2015, 10:07 PM
She thinks everybody on TOL is in the majority and she IS,
"The Minority." No one can hold a decent conversation with
her. She won't answer any questions and she always gets
angry and tells posters she's gonna put them on ignore.

She still peeks though.


....and she has a very pretty hat!

Grosnick Marowbe
October 12th, 2015, 10:11 PM
....and she has a very pretty hat!

And, a lovely "Cat that ate the canary smile," as well.

Bright Raven
October 12th, 2015, 10:12 PM
She doesn't like John.

Especially John 10:27-29

Grosnick Marowbe
October 12th, 2015, 10:26 PM
Especially John 10:27-29

Meshak has stated that the Apostle Paul is an 'anti-Christ.'

Bright Raven
October 12th, 2015, 10:27 PM
Meshak has stated that the Apostle Paul is an 'anti-Christ.'

She says a lot of stuff.

Grosnick Marowbe
October 12th, 2015, 10:28 PM
Could it be possible that, Meshak is a member of "The Illuminati?"

Grosnick Marowbe
October 12th, 2015, 10:29 PM
She says a lot of stuff.

What a Gal.

Bright Raven
October 12th, 2015, 10:29 PM
Could it be possible that, Meshak is a member of "The Illuminati?"

She needs to be illuminated.

Grosnick Marowbe
October 12th, 2015, 10:31 PM
She needs to be illuminated.

Needs a new hat too.

Grosnick Marowbe
October 12th, 2015, 10:34 PM
Meshak has no friends. She's too paranoid.

freelight
October 12th, 2015, 11:17 PM
Salvation is simple concept, yet so many Christians make it complicated, pretending to know they are the true ones.

Jesus' teachings are simple and clear, in overall.

Depends on how one interprets them ;)


Jesus says "if you love Me, keep My commands". This is work salvation.

Naturally those loving and honoring Jesus will keep his sayings and practice them, of course :thumb:


Jesus also says we know them by their fruit. Jesus does not endorse lip service faith.

Indeed, we know a tree by its fruit.


Jesus also says if we don't produce fruit, we will be cut down and burned.

In principle, a gardner does go thru his his garden or orchard, and prunes those branches that are not bearing fruit, and those dead, lifeless branches are tossed into the fire, they are 'cut off'. This 'cutting off' and 'pruning' of unproductive branches is actually a restoring action to help a tree produce good fruit. In this sense the greek word 'kolasin' in Matt. 25:46 translated as 'punishment' refers to a kind of 'pruning' or 'lopping off' of dead branches, and does not necessarily mean an 'eternal punishment' in hell, as in 'eternal conscious torment'. We've challenged this 'translation' here (http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4441747&postcount=783) :)


So OSAS doctrine is clearly wicked doctrine.

That depends on how far it is taken, if it qualifies as being 'wicked'. Now if one uses OSAS as some kind of false security-net so that they can SIN all they want and still believe they are saved, that's obviously twisted, and that person will still reap what they sow, by the law of karma ( all actions have consequences, cause/effect, sowing/reaping). Any claim of 'salvation' is frivolous, since you still REAP what you SOW. There is no escaping the law of recompense (this is also called the 'law of compensation'). They can claim they are "saved" til the cows come home, but if they are rotten trees, you still have rotten fruits.


It is lip service based salvation which is not of Jesus.

Even with supporters of OSAS (to whatever degree), I don't see a true disciple of Jesus BOASTING about being 'saved', as on one level, its just a 'concept' anyways, just a 'belief'. Even to hold to Paul's concept of being "saved" is based on a declaration of 'faith', but even Paul in many places STILL instructs and encourages believers to DO GOOD, walk in the Spirit, do righteousness, walk in love. We are still called to conquer evil with good. We are still to follow the divine laws and principles of 'God' that are eternal, LIVING those principles, because they abide in our hearts and souls, written within. (such is the 'new covenant' of the Spirit, the laws of God being put within, inspiring us to do his will). In this sense a 'rebirth' of the spirit is essential to see, know and partake of the kingdom.

Just lip-service is obviously insufficient. One who loves and serves 'God' isn't boasting about it,....or making any claims of salvation. They teach truth as they know it and are led. They are fulfilled and content to serve the Lord and their fellow-man, that is their reward, their joy. In this sense, of course....we are 'judged' by our works,....what we DO (this however includes our thoughts, words, actions, everything)...since everything is recorded in the Akashic records (Book of Remembrance) anyways, everything is impressed into the etheric energy-field of consciousness and is known by 'God', - "there is nothing hidden that will not be revealed", etc.

freelight
October 12th, 2015, 11:41 PM
Well that was easy. Second post meshak. It took a great deal of restraint to not tell her "go to hell" in my neg rep. I instead went with the more PC "repent".

Hi Nick,

I commend you for at least maybe looking into your heart for Christ's heart of mercy and compassion,...is it in there? Isn't God's eternal love all-sufficient and desiring to do all for meshaks well being? No one deserves to 'go to hell' and suffer forever (a 'concept' I contest and challenge here (http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/blog.php?b=1581) and elsewhere), AND we all need to REPENT (change/renew our minds) on a daily, even momentary basis, so we can follow the divine will and know God's heart, LOVING & SERVING OTHERS, as Jesus does us.....for did He not instruct us to "love and serve one another"?

Not getting sappy here,...just dealing with the truth of the matter, since if we claim to re-present 'God' (Love), and are unloving, that's a contradiction. Its a 'misrepresentation'. Do you have love in your heart? Do you love meshak? (her inherent value and potential is ever before God). Is God love ? Is love one of the main fruits if not the most prominent fruit of the Holy Spirit? Is there a record of our thoughts, intentions, words and actions that we direct towards others being recorded? Are we held accountable for such? Lets get real here,......God knows all hearts and souls, he sees thru every faÁade. The harm or ill-will we project towards others, will come back and harm us, since it is the divine image and likeness of God in that soul, that we attack and malign. Its like daggers thrown into Jesus own heart, since he said " Truly I say to you (note the importance here)...If you've done it to the least of these my brethren, you have done it unto me".

Could we show a little more kindness?

Danoh
October 13th, 2015, 12:23 AM
Meshak has no friends. She's too paranoid.

Here's a crazy thought; lets walk the talk of our Grace Gospel and befriend ones such as her towards their salvation too, Gal. 6:10.

Ask Mr. Religion
October 13th, 2015, 02:21 AM
Am I being unfair to ask for a simple response to my simple question?

So, for you, "saved" means being in heaven. Is this a correct statement of your understanding of what "saved" means?

After all, you started the thread, OSAS, and it should be required that we all understand what you mean by what "saved" means since the word appears twice in "OSAS".

AMR


AMR, I don't take trick or dishonest questions. It is so manipulative, derail and focusing away from my point.

I know you are super good at that. That's what "learned" people do. The Bible says knowledge puffs up, sir.
You are being unfair to me here. I am simply trying to understand your position by asking you plainly what that position is. You opened this thread denouncing "OSAS", so how am I "tricking you" by asking you what "saved" means to you? How can I determine why you see "OSAS" as a wrong view when you refuse to plainly state what "saved" actually means.

It seems to me that you mean "saved" means those in heaven. I do not dispute that the saved are in heaven or that the saved are on their way to heaven.

On that assumption, it seems to me that only the saved are going to heaven or are now in heaven. That being the case, then what is your issue with OSAS? I cannot determine your issue until you be more clear.

From what you have stated in the OP your position is that "saved" must mean something unique to you since, after all, someone "once saved" is not going to heaven, because you feel "once saved" does not mean "always saved". Hence, I am asking you what you think the word "saved" means.

Do you see my dilemma in your responses to date? Help me understand what you mean.

AMR

meshak
October 13th, 2015, 05:54 AM
You are being unfair to me here. I am simply trying to understand your position by asking you plainly what that position is.

My position is clear on the OP, sir.

I just don't engage in scriptural quoting war game.

You can make up any kind of doctrine, by misusing it. It is abuse of Scripture.

That's what it is about all man-made doctrines, misusing the Scripture.

Even satan quote the scripture.

blessings.

meshak
October 13th, 2015, 05:57 AM
From what you have stated in the OP your position is that "saved" must mean something unique to you since, after all, someone "once saved" is not going to heaven, because you feel "once saved" does not mean "always saved". Hence, I am asking you what you think the word "saved" means.

There is no such thing as OSAS, that's my position. So your question is irrelevant.

SaulToPaul
October 13th, 2015, 06:11 AM
As always, the OSAS debate boils down to the error of thinking that everyone in the Bible who was of faith was already "saved". There are many many warnings about falling away, but these warnings are to those faithful who were not yet "saved".


The Body of Christ looks back to having already been saved, being raised with Christ.

Everyone else in the Bible looks ahead to being saved, being raised at the last day.


If this was understood and accepted by everyone, the endless debate would die a quick death.

meshak
October 13th, 2015, 07:33 AM
As always, the OSAS debate boils down to the error of thinking that everyone in the Bible who was of faith was already "saved". There are many many warnings about falling away, but these warnings are to those faithful who were not yet "saved".


The Body of Christ looks back to having already been saved, being raised with Christ.

Everyone else in the Bible looks ahead to being saved, being raised at the last day.


If this was understood and accepted by everyone, the endless debate would die a quick death.

Most Christians seem to believe they are already saved.
And attack or slander everyone who don't agree with their doctrines by saying they are cult or non-believers.

Jesus' followers have hope of salvation; Jesus makes it clear. He says to be faithful until the end. He also says we will be judged according to what we have done.

If self claimed followers are already saved, why so many admonishment and warnings from our Lord and His faithful disciples?

SaulToPaul
October 13th, 2015, 08:52 AM
If self claimed followers are already saved, why so many admonishment and warnings from our Lord and His faithful disciples?

Because they were not yet saved.

Grosnick Marowbe
October 13th, 2015, 09:48 AM
Here's a crazy thought; lets walk the talk of our Grace Gospel and befriend ones such as her towards their salvation too, Gal. 6:10.

Here's another crazy thought, let's start with you? You approach her first.

nikolai_42
October 13th, 2015, 10:33 AM
No one can prove this is biblical using Jesus' word because Jesus did not teach it.

Show us OSAS believers if you think you can quote Jesus' word to prove it.

This is purely man-made doctrine.

It is not of Jesus.

Can a sheep make itself into a goat?

EDIT: Or the other way around...can a goat work itself into being a sheep?

meshak
October 13th, 2015, 11:24 AM
Because they were not yet saved.


There are tons and tons of protestants denominations. And most of them claim to be saved.

So it does not matter what kind of faith you have as long as you claim to be saved? And you are saved?

meshak
October 13th, 2015, 11:25 AM
Can a sheep make itself into a goat?

Jesus judges who are sheep or goat.

Jesus is the Lord.

chrysostom
October 13th, 2015, 11:27 AM
Can a sheep make itself into a goat?



Jesus judges who are sheep or goat.

Jesus is the Lord.

you didn't answer the question

the answer
is
yes

nikolai_42
October 13th, 2015, 11:28 AM
Jesus judges who are sheep or goat.

Jesus is the Lord.

His sheep know too :

My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
John 10:27-28

Can these sheep ever become goats? Or can the goats ever work themselves into being sheep?

meshak
October 13th, 2015, 11:35 AM
His sheep know too :

My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
John 10:27-28

Can these sheep ever become goats? Or can the goats ever work themselves into being sheep?

There are goats wearing sheep's clothing.

meshak
October 13th, 2015, 11:38 AM
You can claim you are sheep and saved all you want.

Jesus may have another judgment for you.

nikolai_42
October 13th, 2015, 11:41 AM
There are goats wearing sheep's clothing.

In other words, you answer is "No. A goat is still a goat and a sheep is still a sheep."?

If so, then I don't see how you can have a problem with the basic idea of OSAS.

meshak
October 13th, 2015, 11:43 AM
In other words, you answer is "No. A goat is still a goat and a sheep is still a sheep."?

If so, then I don't see how you can have a problem with the basic idea of OSAS.

Because Jesus did not teach it.

nikolai_42
October 13th, 2015, 11:44 AM
Because Jesus did not teach it.

The verse I quoted (and your response to it) seem to say otherwise.

meshak
October 13th, 2015, 11:46 AM
OSAS is self assurance.

You cannot claim to be saved because Jesus is the judge who will be saved or not.

This doctrine disregard Jesus' authority big time.

meshak
October 13th, 2015, 11:47 AM
The verse I quoted (and your response to it) seem to say otherwise.

that's your twisted version.

nikolai_42
October 13th, 2015, 11:51 AM
that's your twisted version.

Jesus said His sheep follow His voice. In fact, earlier in the same chapter, Jesus said His sheep would NOT follow anyone else :

And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers.
John 10:5

You admitted that goats may dress up in sheep's clothing, but they are still goats. Likewise, sheeps are still sheep.

Conclusion : Someone who is ACTUALLY a sheep will NEVER follow another besides Jesus (this is right from scripture!).

So why is this not the foundation for OSAS?

Grosnick Marowbe
October 13th, 2015, 11:54 AM
Because Jesus did not teach it.

Are you proud of your ignorance? I'm certain you are.

God's Truth
October 13th, 2015, 11:55 AM
Jesus said His sheep follow His voice. In fact, earlier in the same chapter, Jesus said His sheep would NOT follow anyone else :

And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers.
John 10:5

You admitted that goats may dress up in sheep's clothing, but they are still goats. Likewise, sheeps are still sheep.

Conclusion : Someone who is ACTUALLY a sheep will NEVER follow another besides Jesus (this is right from scripture!).

So why is this not the foundation for OSAS?

Sheep can become as heifers.

Sheep can be in God's hands, and it turn into a dreadful thing.

Hosea 4:6 The Israelites are stubborn, like a stubborn heifer. How then can the LORD pasture them like lambs in a meadow?

Hebrews 10:31 It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.


Tell us, how do you think it could be a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

Why don't you believe the scriptures?

Grosnick Marowbe
October 13th, 2015, 11:55 AM
There are goats wearing sheep's clothing.

Such as yourself.

meshak
October 13th, 2015, 11:57 AM
Jesus said His sheep follow His voice. In fact, earlier in the same chapter, Jesus said His sheep would NOT follow anyone else :

But who are the sheep? I am sure all Christians claim they are sheep.

Jesus may tell you "I never knew you" even you claim to be sheep.

Grosnick Marowbe
October 13th, 2015, 11:58 AM
But who are the sheep? I am sure all Christians claim they are sheep.

Jesus may tell you "I never knew you" even you claim to be sheep.

Are you a sheep or a goat?

nikolai_42
October 13th, 2015, 11:59 AM
But who are the sheep? I am sure all Christians claim they are sheep.

Jesus may tell you "I never knew you" even you claim to be sheep.

That's the whole point! Just because someone claims to be a sheep doesn't make them one. But if they actually ARE a sheep, then they WON'T follow another. If someone actually IS a sheep, they ARE secure in Christ.

nikolai_42
October 13th, 2015, 12:00 PM
Sheep can become as heifers.

Sheep can be in God's hands, and it turn into a dreadful thing.

Hosea 4:6 The Israelites are stubborn, like a stubborn heifer. How then can the LORD pasture them like lambs in a meadow?

Hebrews 10:31 It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.


Tell us, how do you think it could be a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

Why don't you believe the scriptures?

Only the Lord can make a lamb out of a heifer. And it is a fearful thing for anyone to fall into the hands of the Living God. But far better than being left to one's self...

meshak
October 13th, 2015, 12:04 PM
That's the whole point! Just because someone claims to be a sheep doesn't make them one. But if they actually ARE a sheep, then they WON'T follow another. If someone actually IS a sheep, they ARE secure in Christ.

Are you saved?

God's Truth
October 13th, 2015, 12:16 PM
Only the Lord can make a lamb out of a heifer. And it is a fearful thing for anyone to fall into the hands of the Living God. But far better than being left to one's self...

The Lord makes one a lamb when the person obeys God.

It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the Living God when a saved one DISOBEYS.

Bright Raven
October 13th, 2015, 12:22 PM
The Lord makes one a lamb when the person obeys God.

It is a dreadful think to fall into the hands of the Living God when a saved one DISOBEYS.

Why?

Proverbs 3:12 New King James Version (NKJV)

12 For whom the Lord loves He corrects,
Just as a father the son in whom he delights.

God's Truth
October 13th, 2015, 12:36 PM
Why?

Proverbs 3:12 New King James Version (NKJV)

12 For whom the Lord loves He corrects,
Just as a father the son in whom he delights.

Why? Because some do not take correction, because they stop having faith in God.


1 Corinthians 15:2 By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain.


1 Corinthians 10:12 So, if you think you are standing firm, be careful that you don't fall!


Romans 11:22 Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off.

1 Corinthians 9:27 No, I strike a blow to my body and make it my slave so that after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified for the prize.

God's Truth
October 13th, 2015, 12:42 PM
God disciplines us so that we REPENT.

Bright Raven
October 13th, 2015, 12:48 PM
Why? Because some do not take correction, because they stop having faith in God.


1 Corinthians 15:2 By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain.


1 Corinthians 10:12 So, if you think you are standing firm, be careful that you don't fall!


Romans 11:22 Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off.

1 Corinthians 9:27 No, I strike a blow to my body and make it my slave so that after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified for the prize.

Then they will be under the rod until they accept correction.

God's Truth
October 13th, 2015, 12:52 PM
Then they will be under the rod until they accept correction.

So then, you admit that they have to accept correction.

Not everyone accepts correction. If they did, then why are we being warned? If they did, they why do many live as sinners, yet say they believe in God?

Bright Raven
October 13th, 2015, 12:55 PM
So then, you admit that they have to accept correction.

Not everyone accepts correction. If they did, then why are we being warned? If they did, they why do many live as sinners, yet say they believe in God?

deceived!

God's Truth
October 13th, 2015, 01:03 PM
deceived!

Don't you know that we are warned?

Bright Raven
October 13th, 2015, 01:06 PM
Don't you know that we are warned?

Yes,

Galatians 6:7 New King James Version (NKJV)

7 Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever a man sows, that he will also reap.

God's Truth
October 13th, 2015, 01:10 PM
Yes,

Galatians 6:7 New King James Version (NKJV)

7 Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever a man sows, that he will also reap.

Then stop going against the scriptures.

meshak
October 13th, 2015, 01:12 PM
Are you saved?

Bump for Nikolay.

Bright Raven
October 13th, 2015, 01:14 PM
Then stop going against the scriptures.

:idunno: what you're talking about.

God's Truth
October 13th, 2015, 01:15 PM
God won't be mocked. If a person sins then he will reap destruction, and the one who sows to please the Spirit will reap eternal life.

8 The one who sows to please his sinful nature, from that nature will reap destruction; the one who sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life.

nikolai_42
October 13th, 2015, 01:15 PM
Why? Because some do not take correction, because they stop having faith in God.


1 Corinthians 15:2 By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain.


1 Corinthians 10:12 So, if you think you are standing firm, be careful that you don't fall!


Romans 11:22 Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off.

1 Corinthians 9:27 No, I strike a blow to my body and make it my slave so that after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified for the prize.

Jesus, in John 10, is speaking in the completed sense (His sheep know His voice and will never follow another). Paul is often speaking in the immediate sense (right now...what is your approach to God?). If you accept both Jesus and Paul as authoritative, then that's the only way to read these passages consistently. Unless you want the absurdity that someone can actually change identity multiple times.

Sheep...no - goat!....now sheep....now goat...Sheep!...goat!

Neither you nor God seem to know what you are - or what you will be! Or if God knows, He's not going to tell you. Stark contrast to the assurance and simplicity found here :

Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber.
But he that entereth in by the door is the shepherd of the sheep.
To him the porter openeth; and the sheep hear his voice: and he calleth his own sheep by name, and leadeth them out.
And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice.
And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers.
John 10:1-5

The sheep has no intention of disobeying his Master. None. The sheep may be dumb and wayward - but there is not a bit of guile in his actions. He knows his Shepherd and follows Him. And if he goes astray, the Shepherd finds him and brings him.

What man of you, having an hundred sheep, if he lose one of them, doth not leave the ninety and nine in the wilderness, and go after that which is lost, until he find it?
And when he hath found it, he layeth it on his shoulders, rejoicing.
And when he cometh home, he calleth together his friends and neighbours, saying unto them, Rejoice with me; for I have found my sheep which was lost.
I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth, more than over ninety and nine just persons, which need no repentance.
Luke 15:4-7

When was that sheep ever a goat? And notice how Jesus makes it clear that Him bringing the sheep back signifies repentance...

Totton Linnet
October 13th, 2015, 01:17 PM
So then, you admit that they have to accept correction.

Not everyone accepts correction. If they did, then why are we being warned? If they did, they why do many live as sinners, yet say they believe in God?

It is your own guilty soul howling in all your posts, it is YOU being warned...we are into the good things that belong to salvation

Bright Raven
October 13th, 2015, 01:17 PM
God won't be mocked. If a person sins then he will reap destruction, and the one who sows to please the Spirit will reap eternal life.

8 The one who sows to please his sinful nature, from that nature will reap destruction; the one who sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life.

It has already been stated that God will not be mocked.

God's Truth
October 13th, 2015, 01:19 PM
It is your own guilty soul howling in all your posts, it is YOU being warned...we are into the good things that belong to salvation

Everyone is warned. You preach against what Jesus says. How do you EVER get that it is right to do that?

meshak
October 13th, 2015, 01:20 PM
Jesus, in John 10, is speaking in the completed sense (His sheep know His voice and will never follow another). Paul is often speaking in the immediate sense (right now...what is your approach to God?). If you accept both Jesus and Paul as authoritative, then that's the only way to read these passages consistently. Unless you want the absurdity that someone can actually change identity multiple times.

Sheep...no - goat!....now sheep....now goat...Sheep!...goat!

Neither you nor God seem to know what you are - or what you will be! Or if God knows, He's not going to tell you. Stark contrast to the assurance and simplicity found here :

Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber.
But he that entereth in by the door is the shepherd of the sheep.
To him the porter openeth; and the sheep hear his voice: and he calleth his own sheep by name, and leadeth them out.
And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice.
And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers.
John 10:1-5

The sheep has no intention of disobeying his Master. None. The sheep may be dumb and wayward - but there is not a bit of guile in his actions. He knows his Shepherd and follows Him. And if he goes astray, the Shepherd finds him and brings him.

What man of you, having an hundred sheep, if he lose one of them, doth not leave the ninety and nine in the wilderness, and go after that which is lost, until he find it?
And when he hath found it, he layeth it on his shoulders, rejoicing.
And when he cometh home, he calleth together his friends and neighbours, saying unto them, Rejoice with me; for I have found my sheep which was lost.
I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth, more than over ninety and nine just persons, which need no repentance.
Luke 15:4-7

When was that sheep ever a goat? And notice how Jesus makes it clear that Him bringing the sheep back signifies repentance...

So are you saved?

nikolai_42
October 13th, 2015, 01:23 PM
Are you saved?

When did the thread become a question about some specific person's salvation? Those threads usually get nasty.

But I will say that if I am saved, I am secure in Him. But I also don't like displeasing my Master. The words the saved one looks forward to hearing are these :

...Well done, good and faithful servant; thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.
Matthew 25:23

Totton Linnet
October 13th, 2015, 01:23 PM
If you are saved, you will be with God in His kingdom.

This is second life.

You should not be asking this kind of question if you are true Jesus' followers.

You'll never make it if you wait till you die shackles...you haven't made it yet have you? you seethe with hatred for everyone, that can't be right.

If you were a sheep of God's pasture you would be in His flock....are you in His flock? doesn't He drive you out from among His sheep?

Second life is not looking very good for you shackles

meshak
October 13th, 2015, 01:24 PM
When did the thread become a question about some specific person's salvation?

To make my point clear.

Are you saved?

Grosnick Marowbe
October 13th, 2015, 01:25 PM
To make my point clear.

Are you saved?

What's your hat made of?

meshak
October 13th, 2015, 01:26 PM
You'll never make it if you wait till you die shackles...you haven't made it yet have you? you seethe with hatred for everyone, that can't be right.

If you were a sheep of God's pasture you would be in His flock....are you in His flock? doesn't He drive you out from among His sheep?

Second life is not looking very good for you shackles

You are clearly goat.

Jesus' true followers don't slander any of His followers.

You are accuser of His followers.

nikolai_42
October 13th, 2015, 01:26 PM
To make my point clear.

Are you saved?

How does my salvation (or supposed lack thereof) change what Jesus said?

Grosnick Marowbe
October 13th, 2015, 01:27 PM
Hey Meshak, why do you ask other's if they're saved,
since you don't know if you are?

meshak
October 13th, 2015, 01:30 PM
How does my salvation (or supposed lack thereof) change what Jesus said?

I am making it clear that your doctrine is false.

There are too many so called true and saved Christians misrepresent Jesus with their doctrines and deeds.

Jesus says we know them by their fruit, not by what they claim or by their doctrines.

meshak
October 13th, 2015, 01:30 PM
How does my salvation (or supposed lack thereof) change what Jesus said?

It is clear that you don't have confidence in what you claim.

Grosnick Marowbe
October 13th, 2015, 01:31 PM
Meshak is trying her best to earn her eternal life. She's doing tons and tons
of good works and obedience.

nikolai_42
October 13th, 2015, 01:32 PM
I am making it clear that your doctrine is false.

There are too many so called true and saved Christians misrepresent Jesus with their doctrines and deeds.

Jesus says we know them by their fruit, not by what they claim or by their doctrine.

What have you made clear? How? To who? All I did was quote Jesus speaking about sheep.

Grosnick Marowbe
October 13th, 2015, 01:32 PM
I am making it clear that your doctrine is false.

There are too many so called true and saved Christians misrepresent Jesus with their doctrines and deeds.

Jesus says we know them by their fruit, not by what they claim or by their doctrines.

Meshak "KNOWS!!"

nikolai_42
October 13th, 2015, 01:34 PM
It is clear that you don't have confidence in what you claim.

Your own words are that Jesus doesn't teach OSAS (not that anyone's salvation - or lack of it - refutes it). I used Jesus' words to show that He does show certainty. Are you basing your doctrine on Jesus' words or on other people's spiritual state? That's why it's so critical to make this about what you started - what Jesus said.

Totton Linnet
October 13th, 2015, 01:35 PM
It is very interesting to compare a goat with a sheep, their natures are so different....the goat is ill tempered and ill disposed toward everyone, off on his own.

God's truth [turned to a lie] ? shackles ?

Ask Mr. Religion
October 13th, 2015, 01:38 PM
To make my point clear.

Are you saved?
Odd that you repeatedly ask another for your question to be answered, yet when I ask a question to you to define what you mean by "saved", you wave off any direct response.

AMR

God's Truth
October 13th, 2015, 01:42 PM
Jesus, in John 10, is speaking in the completed sense (His sheep know His voice and will never follow another). Paul is often speaking in the immediate sense (right now...what is your approach to God?). If you accept both Jesus and Paul as authoritative, then that's the only way to read these passages consistently. Unless you want the absurdity that someone can actually change identity multiple times.

Sheep...no - goat!....now sheep....now goat...Sheep!...goat!
The sheep in the scripture were as heifers.
That is the Word of God.




Neither you nor God seem to know what you are - or what you will be! Or if God knows, He's not going to tell you. Stark contrast to the assurance and simplicity found here :
I am trying to help you know when a person is a sheep or not---the Bible tells us how to know.




Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber.
But he that entereth in by the door is the shepherd of the sheep.
To him the porter openeth; and the sheep hear his voice: and he calleth his own sheep by name, and leadeth them out.
And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice.
And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers.
John 10:1-5

The sheep has no intention of disobeying his Master. None. The sheep may be dumb and wayward - but there is not a bit of guile in his actions. He knows his Shepherd and follows Him. And if he goes astray, the Shepherd finds him and brings him.

What man of you, having an hundred sheep, if he lose one of them, doth not leave the ninety and nine in the wilderness, and go after that which is lost, until he find it?
And when he hath found it, he layeth it on his shoulders, rejoicing.
And when he cometh home, he calleth together his friends and neighbours, saying unto them, Rejoice with me; for I have found my sheep which was lost.
I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth, more than over ninety and nine just persons, which need no repentance.
Luke 15:4-7

When was that sheep ever a goat? And notice how Jesus makes it clear that Him bringing the sheep back signifies repentance...
When was a goat ever in the hands of God? Why would it be dreadful? Think about it.

chrysostom
October 13th, 2015, 01:43 PM
Odd that you repeatedly ask another for your question to be answered, yet when I ask a question to you to define what you mean by "saved", you wave off any direct response.

AMR

we know what it means
we also know the answer
you are not saved
I am not saved
meshak is not saved
and
anyone who says they are
does not know what they are talking about

God's Truth
October 13th, 2015, 01:44 PM
So are you saved?

If you do not know if you are saved, then you are not.

2 Corinthians 13:5 Examine yourselves to see whether you are in the faith; test yourselves. Do you not realize that Christ Jesus is in you--unless, of course, you fail the test?

God's Truth
October 13th, 2015, 01:45 PM
It has already been stated that God will not be mocked.

That means if you are a believer who lives like a sinner, you will suffer destruction.

God's Truth
October 13th, 2015, 01:46 PM
You'll never make it if you wait till you die shackles...you haven't made it yet have you? you seethe with hatred for everyone, that can't be right.

If you were a sheep of God's pasture you would be in His flock....are you in His flock? doesn't He drive you out from among His sheep?

Second life is not looking very good for you shackles

You also have hatred for God's Word, just like Meshak.

You both have judged each other correctly.

nikolai_42
October 13th, 2015, 01:51 PM
The sheep in the scripture were as heifers.
That is the Word of God.

I am trying to help you know when a person is a sheep or not---the Bible tells us how to know.

In the NT, Jesus is speaking of sheep in a very specific way. It would be dangerous to assume that the exact same thing is meant in the OT. Yes, sheep behave like sheep and heifers like heifers. But in the gospels, Jesus defines His sheep very definitely as those that are His - whether they are currently obeying Him or not. It should be clear to anyone with a passing familiarity with scripture that the OT did not approach salvation in quite the same way (even if man is always saved by faith). They were, after all, called the times of ignorance that God winked at (Acts 17:30).


When was a goat ever in the hands of God? Why would it be dreadful? Think about it.

It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the Living God. All men will fall into His hands at some point. It will be utter torment for some and for others found in Christ it will be unto life (but still probably an overwhelming experience). So I'm not quite sure what you're getting at here.

nikolai_42
October 13th, 2015, 01:58 PM
If you do not know if you are saved, then you are not.

2 Corinthians 13:5 Examine yourselves to see whether you are in the faith; test yourselves. Do you not realize that Christ Jesus is in you--unless, of course, you fail the test?

With that I disagree. That scripture establishes the guidelines for direction in examining one's faith. If one looks too closely at himself for righteousness, he will find great reason for doubt. But if one is resting in the doctrine of Christ - resting in Him and not trusting in themselves - then they won't examine the "I", but they will examine whether they trust Him or not. That is, is their faith in Him or in their works? Remember who Jesus said was justified...

Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican.
The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.
I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.
And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.
I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.
Luke 18:10-14

It should be pretty clear that the publican had very little confidence in himself - and if asked if he was saved would doubt it. When God extends mercy to him, there will be no doubt that it is all of God and none of himself.

Grosnick Marowbe
October 13th, 2015, 01:58 PM
Odd that you repeatedly ask another for your question to be answered, yet when I ask a question to you to define what you mean by "saved", you wave off any direct response.

AMR

She won't answer any questions from anybody.

God's Truth
October 13th, 2015, 02:32 PM
In the NT, Jesus is speaking of sheep in a very specific way. It would be dangerous to assume that the exact same thing is meant in the OT.
How do you ever get that it is dangerous?


Yes, sheep behave like sheep and heifers like heifers. But in the gospels, Jesus defines His sheep very definitely as those that are His - whether they are currently obeying Him or not.
Anyone can become the person Jesus saves.

Matthew 18:3 And he said: "Truly I tell you, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.


It should be clear to anyone with a passing familiarity with scripture that the OT did not approach salvation in quite the same way (even if man is always saved by faith). They were, after all, called the times of ignorance that God winked at (Acts 17:30).
Salvation has always been the same. It has always been that way. In the time of Adam and Eve, it was about believing and obeying God. In the time of Cain and Abel, it was about believing and obeying God. In the time of Noah, it was about believing and obeying God. In the time of Abraham, it was about believing and obeying God, in the time of Jesus, it was about believing and obeying God. In the time of Paul, it was about believing and obeying God. In our times now, it is about believing and obeying God.


It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the Living God. All men will fall into His hands at some point. It will be utter torment for some and for others found in Christ it will be unto life (but still probably an overwhelming experience). So I'm not quite sure what you're getting at here.
The scripture is about Godís people obeying, if they do not obey, it will be a dreadful thing.

Read carefully until you get up to the part about it being a dreadful thing.

26 If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left,
27 but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God.
28 Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses.
29 How much more severely do you think a man deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God under foot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified him, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace?
30 For we know him who said, "It is mine to avenge; I will repay," and again, "The Lord will judge his people."
31 It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

Totton Linnet
October 13th, 2015, 02:33 PM
You also have hatred for God's Word, just like Meshak.

You both have judged each other correctly.

Have you joined an assembly? why not?

Bright Raven
October 13th, 2015, 02:34 PM
Have you joined an assembly? why not?

Yep!

Hebrews 10:25 New King James Version (NKJV)

25 not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as is the manner of some, but exhorting one another, and so much the more as you see the Day approaching.

Totton Linnet
October 13th, 2015, 02:36 PM
How do you ever get that it is dangerous?

Anyone can become the person Jesus saves.

Matthew 18:3 And he said: "Truly I tell you, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.

Salvation has always been the same. It has always been that way. In the time of Adam and Eve, it was about believing and obeying God. In the time of Cain and Abel, it was about believing and obeying God. In the time of Noah, it was about believing and obeying God. In the time of Abraham, it was about believing and obeying God, in the time of Jesus, it was about believing and obeying God. In the time of Paul, it was about believing and obeying God. In our times now, it is about believing and obeying God.

The scripture is about Godís people obeying, if they do not obey, it will be a dreadful thing.

Read carefully until you get up to the part about it being a dreadful thing.

26 If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left,
27 but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God.
28 Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses.
29 How much more severely do you think a man deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God under foot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified him, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace?
30 For we know him who said, "It is mine to avenge; I will repay," and again, "The Lord will judge his people."
31 It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

God's command is BELIEVE...this you disobey...then He says love the brethren, why are you unchurched?

God's Truth
October 13th, 2015, 02:40 PM
With that I disagree. That scripture establishes the guidelines for direction in examining one's faith. If one looks too closely at himself for righteousness, he will find great reason for doubt.
You are badly mistaken.
The scripture says to examine yourself, and you say there is a warning there about examining too efficiently!


But if one is resting in the doctrine of Christ - resting in Him and not trusting in themselves - then they won't examine the "I", but they will examine whether they trust Him or not. That is, is their faith in Him or in their works? Remember who Jesus said was justified...
If a person has to examine themselves at all, then they are not saved. A believer ought to know if they are living through Jesus by obeying him.



Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican.
The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.
I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.
And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.
I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.
Luke 18:10-14

It should be pretty clear that the publican had very little confidence in himself - and if asked if he was saved would doubt it. When God extends mercy to him, there will be no doubt that it is all of God and none of himself.
That scripture is about having to repent to be saved.
The Pharisee would not admit he had sinned, and therefore did not repent.

God's Truth
October 13th, 2015, 02:41 PM
God's command is BELIEVE...this you disobey...then He says love the brethren, why are you unchurched?

The churches are full of people such as yourself, and a false teacher up front that allows you to stay there.

Totton Linnet
October 13th, 2015, 02:45 PM
The churches are full of people such as yourself, and a false teacher up front that allows you to stay there.

That's what I said Jesus said love one another, love the brethren.

You don't , you are like shackles.

So in what is your much flouted obedience?

Bright Raven
October 13th, 2015, 02:46 PM
The churches are full of people such as yourself, and a false teacher up front that allows you to stay there.

With statements like that you show yourself unteachable.

Ephesians 4:10-12New King James Version (NKJV)

10 He who descended is also the One who ascended far above all the heavens, that He might fill all things.)

11 And He Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers,

12 for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ,

Grosnick Marowbe
October 13th, 2015, 02:48 PM
With statements like that you show yourself unteachable.

Ephesians 4:10-12New King James Version (NKJV)

10 He who descended is also the One who ascended far above all the heavens, that He might fill all things.)

11 And He Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers,

12 for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ,

GT, truly, is not teachable. Neither is Meshak. They're both cut out
of the same cloth.

Grosnick Marowbe
October 13th, 2015, 02:49 PM
That's what I said Jesus said love one another, love the brethren.

You don't , you are like shackles.

So in what is your much flouted obedience?

Perhaps, they're the same poster?

God's Truth
October 13th, 2015, 02:52 PM
That's what I said Jesus said love one another, love the brethren.

You don't , you are like shackles.

So in what is your much flouted obedience?

You are no brethren in Christ.

You have done nothing but follow me around condemning me; you do not even reply to anything I say, you merely accuse, just like the accuser of the brethren.

Grosnick Marowbe
October 13th, 2015, 02:55 PM
You are no brethren in Christ.

You have done nothing but follow me around condemning me; you do not even reply to anything I say, you merely accuse, just like the accuser of the brethren.

Can you really blame her?

nikolai_42
October 13th, 2015, 02:57 PM
How do you ever get that it is dangerous?

I suppose "dangerous" is maybe too loaded of a word, but should we assume that Noah let out the Holy Spirit from the ark since in the NT that is the form the Holy Spirit took in descending upon Jesus?


Anyone can become the person Jesus saves.

What scripture shows this? When I read what Jesus says about sheep, I find an underlying identification that is unavoidable and seemingly unchangeable. That is, a sheep is a sheep is a sheep and a goat is a goat is a goat (even if dressed up like a sheep). Even before it goes astray, it's a sheep. Even after it goes astray it's a sheep. The point being that those who are His sheep follow Him and will not follow another. Even if they stray. And those that Jesus casts away? He says He never knew them. I won't say who (specifically) can and cannot be saved, but there is something deeper here at work that goes well beyond the will of man.


Matthew 18:3 And he said: "Truly I tell you, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.

I looked up "change" in that verse. The KJV renders it "be converted". The underlying Greek has it (in that verse) as a passive verb. In other words it happens to the person in question. The version you quoted implies it is the individual's responsibility to change.


Salvation has always been the same. It has always been that way. In the time of Adam and Eve, it was about believing and obeying God. In the time of Cain and Abel, it was about believing and obeying God. In the time of Noah, it was about believing and obeying God. In the time of Abraham, it was about believing and obeying God, in the time of Jesus, it was about believing and obeying God. In the time of Paul, it was about believing and obeying God. In our times now, it is about believing and obeying God.

But it is not about self-improvement. Self-change to be acceptable to God.



The scripture is about Godís people obeying, if they do not obey, it will be a dreadful thing.

Read carefully until you get up to the part about it being a dreadful thing.

26 If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left,
27 but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God.
28 Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses.
29 How much more severely do you think a man deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God under foot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified him, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace?
30 For we know him who said, "It is mine to avenge; I will repay," and again, "The Lord will judge his people."
31 It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

If you read that as stronger than Jesus' statement about His sheep NOT following another, then you are resting in the law and threatenings to encourage obedience. One who is the Lord's knows this implicitly and is more concerned about obeying Him out of love - because God has changed him (or her). Unless ye be converted...

God's Truth
October 13th, 2015, 02:58 PM
With statements like that you show yourself unteachable.

Ephesians 4:10-12New King James Version (NKJV)

10 He who descended is also the One who ascended far above all the heavens, that He might fill all things.)

11 And He Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers,

12 for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ,

God through Paul said not to say I follow this man and that man.

Your churches you want me to join follow men, even your non denominations churches.

I do not have to join a church to be saved; I am part of the body of Christ.

Totton Linnet
October 13th, 2015, 02:58 PM
You are no brethren in Christ.

You have done nothing but follow me around condemning me; you do not even reply to anything I say, you merely accuse, just like the accuser of the brethren.

It is YOU who accuse the brethren, you said the church is full of rascals and all the Pastors are rascals and so you refuse to join any of them.

Why not just be frank and honest and say that you HATE Jesu's brothers? just like shackles does

God's Truth
October 13th, 2015, 03:00 PM
That's what I said Jesus said love one another, love the brethren.

You don't , you are like shackles.

So in what is your much flouted obedience?

Do you want to know why we are told to gather together?

It is to SPUR EACH OTHER ON TO OBEY.

Hahahahahahahahahaha

Oh how I love the Word of God!!!

God's Truth
October 13th, 2015, 03:04 PM
It is YOU who accuse the brethren, you said the church is full of rascals and all the Pastors are rascals and so you refuse to join any of them.

Why not just be frank and honest and say that you HATE Jesu's brothers? just like shackles does

Just listen to yourself. You are just as hateful as Meshak.

Totton Linnet
October 13th, 2015, 03:06 PM
Is Jesu's command that we love one another or not?

You and shackles say we must obey Jesu's commands

nikolai_42
October 13th, 2015, 03:13 PM
You are badly mistaken.
The scripture says to examine yourself, and you say there is a warning there about examining too efficiently!

Note my words - I didn't say too efficiently. My point was that if you are looking at yourself, you will find little to recommend yourself to God (if anything). You may reject Romans 7:18 as applicable here, but Hebrews 12:1-2 says our eyes are to be fixed on Jesus (no doubt you will agree).

So the conclusion is that the examination is as to faith - not as to my own righteousness.

Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ,
And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:
That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;
.
Philippians 3:8-10


If a person has to examine themselves at all, then they are not saved. A believer ought to know if they are living through Jesus by obeying him

So Paul was telling the Corinthians that they weren't saved?


That scripture is about having to repent to be saved.
The Pharisee would not admit he had sinned, and therefore did not repent.

You always seem to be about the "doing". One cannot properly "do" unless one already "is". That repentance does not come as the result of a command, but out of a state of being. The sheep repents. The goat doesn't.

God's Truth
October 13th, 2015, 03:20 PM
I suppose "dangerous" is maybe too loaded of a word, but should we assume that Noah let out the Holy Spirit from the ark since in the NT that is the form the Holy Spirit took in descending upon Jesus?
The Holy Spirit did NOT take the form of a dove.
The Holy Spirit descended on Jesus LIKE a dove.

What scripture shows this? When I read what Jesus says about sheep, I find an underlying identification that is unavoidable and seemingly unchangeable. That is, a sheep is a sheep is a sheep and a goat is a goat is a goat (even if dressed up like a sheep). Even before it goes astray, it's a sheep. Even after it goes astray it's a sheep. The point being that those who are His sheep follow Him and will not follow another. Even if they stray. And those that Jesus casts away? He says He never knew them. I won't say who (specifically) can and cannot be saved, but there is something deeper here at work that goes well beyond the will of man.
You seem oblivious to the fact that Jesus was speaking to Jews, Jews who knew they were to follow the rules and regulations.
Now think about it with that thought, and maybe you will have better understanding.


I looked up "change" in that verse. The KJV renders it "be converted". The underlying Greek has it (in that verse) as a passive verb. In other words it happens to the person in question. The version you quoted implies it is the individual's responsibility to change.
You believe false teachers who have showed you how to use the study of changing English from Greek and back to Greek to not believe what is written.
Jesus says unless you become as a child.
Why won’t you believe Jesus?


But it is not about self-improvement. Self-change to be acceptable to God.
Is that what you say to what Jesus says?
JESUS SAYS unless you become as a child YOU WILL NOT enter the kingdom of heaven.


If you read that as stronger than Jesus' statement about His sheep NOT following another, then you are resting in the law and threatenings to encourage obedience. One who is the Lord's knows this implicitly and is more concerned about obeying Him out of love - because God has changed him (or her). Unless ye be converted...
The Word of God SAYS 26 If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left,

Totton Linnet
October 13th, 2015, 03:28 PM
all sin is deliberate, this is where your soul howls, you know that you still do things regarded as sin, you read that verse and are terrified that it means you are damned

THAT'S what you are howling about....

God's Truth
October 13th, 2015, 03:30 PM
all sin is deliberate, this is where your soul howls, you know that you still do things regarded as sin, you read that verse and are terrified that it means you are damned

THAT'S what you are howling about....

No, accuser, I am not howling like a dog who does not now its father.

nikolai_42
October 13th, 2015, 03:32 PM
The Holy Spirit did NOT take the form of a dove.
The Holy Spirit descended on Jesus LIKE a dove.

And the Holy Ghost descended in a bodily shape like a dove upon him, and a voice came from heaven, which said, Thou art my beloved Son; in thee I am well pleased.
Luke 3:22

The point is that it looked so like a dove that it was described that way. Just as Israel was described as a heifer and followers of Jesus as sheep. That's all I'm trying to say. One does not necessarily carry over to the other.


You seem oblivious to the fact that Jesus was speaking to Jews, Jews who knew they were to follow the rules and regulations.
Now think about it with that thought, and maybe you will have better understanding.

He was talking about those that follow Him. Many Jews who followed the rules and regulations rejected Him. Again...I ask what scripture shows anyone can become a sheep even if they aren't already.


You believe false teachers who have showed you how to use the study of changing English from Greek and back to Greek to not believe what is written.
Jesus says unless you become as a child.
Why wonít you believe Jesus?

Because I simply read straight out of a Greek Grammar that gives the meaning of a word and the type of verb it is...I'm believing false teachers?? What if I instead quote the KJV that says the same thing :

And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.
Matthew 18:3

I have no problem with requiring a change of heart, but we don't change our own hearts. We turn from what we know is wrong and the Lord does the rest in us. That's not changing ourselves.


Is that what you say to what Jesus says?
JESUS SAYS unless you become as a child YOU WILL NOT enter the kingdom of heaven.

And I don't get "self-improvement" or "change your heart" out of that. No.


The Word of God SAYS 26 If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left,

And if you believe what Jesus says, how can such a person be called a sheep?

God's Truth
October 13th, 2015, 03:33 PM
I know my Father; I obey by honoring my Father.

John 8:49 "I am not possessed by a demon," said Jesus, "but I honor my Father and you dishonor me.

Totton Linnet
October 13th, 2015, 03:37 PM
I know my Father; I obey by honoring my Father.

John 8:49 "I am not possessed by a demon," said Jesus, "but I honor my Father and you dishonor me.

But you just agreed that you do not love the brethren...that is not obeying Jesu's command

God's Truth
October 13th, 2015, 03:49 PM
But you just agreed that you do not love the brethren...that is not obeying Jesu's command

I love the brethren. You are not the brethren. You, like Meshak is an accuser of the brethren.

Totton Linnet
October 13th, 2015, 03:54 PM
I love the brethren. You are not the brethren. You, like Meshak is an accuser of the brethren.

Yet you do not belong to any family of believers do you....you will say you belong to the whole church but all your posts show that you reject all Christians....just like shackles does.

To sum up your theology, you yourself are not perfect but you demand that everyone else should be.

Totton Linnet
October 13th, 2015, 03:58 PM
You think other people's mess is awful but your's is just fine...perfumed

nikolai_42
October 13th, 2015, 04:07 PM
You think other people's mess is awful but your's is just fine...perfumed

I'm afraid this is part of the reason I'm not going to simply answer question like Meshak asked straight up - not just because they don't change the OP - but because they cause contention. The issue is not whether someone is or is not in Christ (at least not for us to finally judge) but what Christ taught - and if it is His Word, it will find its place into the hearts of His sheep.

Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think any thing as of ourselves; but our sufficiency is of God;
2 Corinthians 3:5

For we preach not ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord; and ourselves your servants for Jesus' sake.
2 Cor 4:5

For we dare not make ourselves of the number, or compare ourselves with some that commend themselves: but they measuring themselves by themselves, and comparing themselves among themselves, are not wise.
2 Cor 10:12

We are told "You shall know them by their fruit". Not their statements, confessions, signatures, bumper stickers, associations etc...And just like we don't consciously produce our own fruit, we can't decide to tell others what our fruit is - it must speak for itself.

God's Truth
October 13th, 2015, 04:10 PM
And the Holy Ghost descended in a bodily shape like a dove upon him, and a voice came from heaven, which said, Thou art my beloved Son; in thee I am well pleased.
Luke 3:22

The point is that it looked so like a dove that it was described that way. Just as Israel was described as a heifer and followers of Jesus as sheep. That's all I'm trying to say. One does not necessarily carry over to the other.
No, that is NOT what you were saying! You were shown God’s Truth but you will not be thankful for it, but you instead act as if you have always known and then go on with your falseness.


He was talking about those that follow Him. Many Jews who followed the rules and regulations rejected Him. Again...I ask what scripture shows anyone can become a sheep even if they aren't already.
I already gave you the scripture.
Jesus was speaking to everyone, and to THOSE WHO HEAR.


Because I simply read straight out of a Greek Grammar that gives the meaning of a word and the type of verb it is...I'm believing false teachers?? What if I instead quote the KJV that says the same thing :

And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.
Matthew 18:3

I have no problem with requiring a change of heart, but we don't change our own hearts. We turn from what we know is wrong and the Lord does the rest in us. That's not changing ourselves.
You are fighting it, but there is no way around it. You have to change and become as a little child.


And I don't get "self-improvement" or "change your heart" out of that. No.
We all have to prepare our hearts for the Lord.



And if you believe what Jesus says, how can such a person be called a sheep?
Anyone can believe and heed the warnings. You are hindering people. Do you want to hinder people?

God's Truth
October 13th, 2015, 04:17 PM
Yet you do not belong to any family of believers do you....you will say you belong to the whole church but all your posts show that you reject all Christians....just like shackles does.

To sum up your theology, you yourself are not perfect but you demand that everyone else should be.

Many are called, few are chosen I can tell what you are by your fruits.

With the measure you judge others, you will be judged.

God's Truth
October 13th, 2015, 04:25 PM
But you just agreed that you do not love the brethren...that is not obeying Jesu's command

Just listen to what you write. You said I agreed I do not love the brethren. Where did I say that?
You are not the brethren.
You are an accuser.

Ask Mr. Religion
October 13th, 2015, 04:34 PM
Fortunately for meshak, GT has appeared on the scene with all her heresies (http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=97148), and meshak can beat a hasty retreat hoping everyone will forget her predicament as they deal with yet another odd duck.

Perhaps both ladies are a tag team of sorts? :idunno:

AMR

God's Truth
October 13th, 2015, 04:35 PM
Fortunately for meshak, GT has appeared on the scene with all her heresies (http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=97148), and meshak can beat a hasty retreat hoping everyone will forget her predicament as they deal with yet another odd duck.

Perhaps both ladies are a tag team of sorts? :idunno:

AMR

Can you imagine the humbleness you would have to endure to be saved?

You would have to confess that all your studying and education were as rubbish.

Bright Raven
October 13th, 2015, 04:41 PM
Can you imagine the humbleness you would have to endure to be saved?

You would have to confess that all your studying and education were as rubbish.

And where do you get that from?

2 Timothy 2:15 King James Version (KJV)

15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

Ask Mr. Religion
October 13th, 2015, 05:04 PM
Many are called, few are chosen...An often used, but misunderstood and cast as a shibboleth for anyone who thinks he or she has some special knowledge that the rest of us better pay attention to; all contrary to Rev. 7:9, of course. :AMR:

We should avoid two errors: first, that all men shall be saved; second, that only few men will be saved. The preponderance of Scripture teaches the universal spread and acceptance of the Gospel at some point in history. Folks with this view appeal to Matt. 7:13, 14; 20:16; 22:14; Luke 13:23, 24. The passages in Matthew 7 and Luke 13 are parallel passages and already contain much of the answer in their contexts.

Matthew, moreso than Luke, emphasizes the wideness of the way to destruction; Luke mentions only the narrow, or strait, gate. This is a warning contrasting Christianity with other approaches to God. The word translated "broad" in Matthew 7:13 means "spacious" or "roomy" and carries with it the idea of living comfortably and without troubles. The words "narrow" and "wide," describing the gates are relative terms.

In other words, these only derive meaning in contrast to one another. There are two paths, and the two gates, or doors, standing at the head of each, the straight and narrow and the comfortable and wide. In Luke's account, he uses the same word for "gate," as John uses in 10:9 to give a metaphorical description of Jesus, "door." So, Jesus is contrasting salvation through him with other paths of salvation. It is through much tribulation we enter the kingdom of God (Acts 14:22).

There are two other contrasting terms used in these passages, "many" and "few." Again, these are relative terms and give no real information as to the actual number of those saved. In Luke's account (which is the chronological Gospel, see Luke 1:3 and forward, he writes "in order"), this question is raised immediately after we are told that Jesus taught that the kingdom of God would fill the earth. Yet, at the time Jesus spoke, the church was still a "little flock" (Luke 12:32) waiting to receive the kingdom. In Matthew, the warning has been placed in a block of teaching expressing the difficulty of being saved and the ease with which men deceive themselves in this matter. The warning is for men to avoid taking the path that attracts the most and easiest attention of men.

At the time that Jesus spoke these words, it was historically true that neither had most of mankind been saved nor would most of the Jews to whom he preached then be saved. However, it shall always remain true that the preaching of Christianity will be wider than its reception.

The passages in Matt. 20:16 and 22:14 both rely upon the previous teaching. However, in these passages, there is an explanation offered. "Many" are called but "few are "chosen." The difference between the many and the few is that between calling and election (no matter how you specifically view "election"). The call of the Gospel is always wider than its reception. Hence, the contrast.

The reason is because not all who hear the outward preaching are elect of God. The Greek literally reads, "many are called, but few are elect." Throughout most of history, the contrast between the "many" and the "few" has been numerically significant. Yet, the contrast is what we might express by the words "more" or "less." More people are called, or bidden, less people are chosen.

If you consider that there are more people alive today than throughout all of human history and, presumably, this will continue to be the case during the millennium, then, if most people living during the millennium are saved, most people in history will be too. One thousand years of ever increasing mankind numerically being brought to faith is layering of twenty generations of men, each larger than the previous, being redeemed. Thus, in heaven, the number of the elect is a number no man can number (cf. Rev. 7:9).

Even during the millennium, though the vast majority of men will be saved, the hearing of the Gospel will still be wider than the election of God. The difference is that during the millennium, though fewer will be elect than hear the Gospel, the number of the elect will be greatly increased so as to fill all the world. "The earth will be full of the knowledge of the Lord as the waters cover the sea" (i.e., everywhere).

More always hear than are saved. This is not, however, a concept that necessitates thinking the final number of the saved will be few. Less will be saved than heard the Gospel but, in the end, the overarching theme of Scripture is that Christ came to save the world not just a few scattered individuals. Just as all die in Adam, so all are made alive in Christ. Paul's point challenges credulity if he meant by "all" a number so significantly smaller than the number of people who ever shall exist that the mass of mankind is reprobate and counted for naught. It is clear the tree of humanity is to be pruned of its diseased branches but pruning does not entail cutting off the vast majority of the branches of a tree.

The divine intention is stated throughout Scripture to save innumerable multitudes. Christ did not die for each and every individual of mankind but He most certainly evidently died for a large enough portion of mankind that it could be considered the "all," "the whole world," "all men," etc. While it is true less will be saved than hear, or even profess the true religion, that does not mean the number of saved will be small or even smaller than the total number of the lost.

For example, it appears that no more than one third of the angels fell (Rev. 12:4 and following; it may be less, this may not refer to the whole). Should we suppose that God, who made man in his own image, and the Son of God, who took upon himself not the nature of angels but the seed of Abraham, should have purposed to redeem a lesser percentage (one-third) of men than angels were kept from apostasy? This seems to misrepresent the claim that God's redemption of men is more exalted than his upholding and confirming of the elect angels (1 Pet. 1:12 and forward).


AMR