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Robert Pate
October 12th, 2015, 07:45 AM
The God of the Bible is not the same God of Calvinism. The God of the Bible, "So loves the world that he gives his only begotten Son, that whosoever that believes in him should not perish, but have everlasting life" John 3:16.

The Bible depicts God as being "Long-suffering and not willing that any should perish" 2 Peter 3:9. The Psalms written by King David, paint a picture of God as being kind, just, merciful, righteous compassionate and long-suffering, Psalm 86:15.

But the God of Calvinism is none of that. The God of Calvinism predestinates billions to hell for no reason other than they were born after Adam. It is not our fault that we are sinners, its Adam's fault. We are born into sin, Psalm 51:5. We are sinners without works. You cannot make yourself a sinner simply because you were born into sin.

"For as by one man disobedience many were MADE sinners" Romans 5:19.

We inherited sin from our first Father Adam. We all have Adam's blood coursing through our veins. This means that the God of Calvinism is unjust because he sends sinners to hell. No one should be sentenced to hell because they are sinners. No one will go to hell because of sin, they will go to hell because of unbelief and rejection of God's Son, Jesus Christ.

If you are going to believe in Calvinism, then you must believe that God creates and gives life to people that are reprobates. He creates and gives life to these reprobates for the sole purpose of sending them to hell. How can anyone have faith in a God that would do such a terrible thing as this?

Salvation always has been and always will be by faith. It is not humanly possible to have faith in the mean, cruel, unjust, unrighteous God of Calvinism.

NickCharles
October 12th, 2015, 07:47 AM
Then you have an issue since God sends some of those He loves to hell. How can you believe in a God who doesn't love unconditionally?

Robert Pate
October 12th, 2015, 07:50 AM
Then you have an issue since God sends some of those He loves to hell. How can you believe in a God who doesn't love unconditionally?


The condition for eternal life is Faith in God's Son Jesus Christ.

NickCharles
October 12th, 2015, 07:56 AM
The condition for eternal life is Faith in God's Son Jesus Christ.


Exactly. Conditional love.

Robert Pate
October 12th, 2015, 08:04 AM
Exactly. Conditional love.


Do you believe that those who are Christ rejectors should have eternal life?

nikolai_42
October 12th, 2015, 08:06 AM
The God of the Bible is not the same God of Calvinism. The God of the Bible, "So loves the world that he gives his only begotten Son, that whosoever that believes in him should not perish, but have everlasting life" John 3:16.

The Bible depicts God as being "Long-suffering and not willing that any should perish" 2 Peter 3:9. The Psalms written by King David, paint a picture of God as being kind, just, merciful, righteous compassionate and long-suffering, Psalm 86:15.

But the God of Calvinism is none of that. The God of Calvinism predestinates billions to hell for no reason other than they were born after Adam. It is not our fault that we are sinners, its Adam's fault. We are born into sin, Psalm 51:5. We are sinners without works. You cannot make yourself a sinner simply because you were born into sin.

"For as by one man disobedience many were MADE sinners" Romans 5:19.

We inherited sin from our first Father Adam. We all have Adam's blood coursing through our veins. This means that the God of Calvinism is unjust because he sends sinners to hell. No one should be sentenced to hell because they are sinners. No one will go to hell because of sin, they will go to hell because of unbelief and rejection of God's Son, Jesus Christ.

If you are going to believe in Calvinism, then you must believe that God creates and gives life to people that are reprobates. He creates and gives life to these reprobates for the sole purpose of sending them to hell. How can anyone have faith in a God that would do such a terrible thing as this?

Salvation always has been and always will be by faith. It is not humanly possible to have faith in the mean, cruel, unjust, unrighteous God of Calvinism.

Robert, let me know if this is a good analogy for what you are saying:

All men are born with Adam's sinful nature - let's say this is analogous to all men being subject to gravity (everyone born into the world is - no exceptions). All men are riding an airplane whose pilot is gone and that is destined to crash into a mountain. God - wanting all to be saved - distributes to every one on board (without exception) a top of the line parachute since He wants everyone to be saved. The parachute is foolproof and functions perfectly every time it is used. Most men jump out of the plane (some don't - hoping it will actually land safely). Of the ones who jump out of the plane, only some actually pull the ripcord to activate the parachute. These are they that have faith to believe - and so are saved. Those that don't are wanting to save themselves (by religion or some other ineffectual way).

Is this a reasonable comparison?

NickCharles
October 12th, 2015, 08:12 AM
Do you believe that those who are Christ rejectors should have eternal life?


I'm not taking about my view, so do not try to shift the burden. The question is, do you believe that God loves unconditionally? You cannot say He does if He sends people to hell.

Robert Pate
October 12th, 2015, 08:20 AM
I'm not taking about my view, so do not try to shift the burden. The question is, do you believe that God loves unconditionally? You cannot say He does if He sends people to hell.


God sends no one to hell.

People send themselves to hell because they do not believe in the one whom God has sent.

God so loved the world, unconditionally, John 3:16. He provides salvation for the whole world as a free gift from God, Ephesians 2:8.

However, this salvation is not yours if you don't receieve it.

nikolai_42
October 12th, 2015, 08:21 AM
God sends no one to hell.

People send themselves to hell because they do not believe in the one whom God has sent.

God so loved the world, unconditionally, John 3:16. He provides salvation for the whole world as a free gift from God, Ephesians 2:8.

However, this salvation is not yours if you don't receieve it.

So men perish based on who there are and what they do...but they live based on what they choose?

Robert Pate
October 12th, 2015, 08:24 AM
Robert, let me know if this is a good analogy for what you are saying:

All men are born with Adam's sinful nature - let's say this is analogous to all men being subject to gravity (everyone born into the world is - no exceptions). All men are riding an airplane whose pilot is gone and that is destined to crash into a mountain. God - wanting all to be saved - distributes to every one on board (without exception) a top of the line parachute since He wants everyone to be saved. The parachute is foolproof and functions perfectly every time it is used. Most men jump out of the plane (some don't - hoping it will actually land safely). Of the ones who jump out of the plane, only some actually pull the ripcord to activate the parachute. These are they that have faith to believe - and so are saved. Those that don't are wanting to save themselves (by religion or some other ineffectual way).

Is this a reasonable comparison?


Yes, the Gospel calls for a responce. No responce is a responce and they crashed with the plane.

NickCharles
October 12th, 2015, 08:25 AM
God sends no one to hell.



People send themselves to hell because they do not believe in the one whom God has sent.



God so loved the world, unconditionally, John 3:16. He provides salvation for the whole world as a free gift from God, Ephesians 2:8.



However, this salvation is not yours if you don't receieve it.


Can God prevent people from going to hell?

Robert Pate
October 12th, 2015, 08:27 AM
So men perish based on who there are and what they do...but they live based on what they choose?


Men perish because they do not believe in God's Son Jesus Christ, John 3:16.

NickCharles
October 12th, 2015, 08:28 AM
Men perish because they do not believe in God's Son Jesus Christ, John 3:16.


Exactly. Conditional love.

Robert Pate
October 12th, 2015, 08:29 AM
Can God prevent people from going to hell?

God has done all that he can do to save all of humanity.

The ball is now in humanities court. What will you do with Jesus?

Robert Pate
October 12th, 2015, 08:31 AM
Exactly. Conditional love.


Of course. God is not going to save anyone that does not respond to the Gospel with love and thanksgiving.

nikolai_42
October 12th, 2015, 08:34 AM
God has done all that he can do to save all of humanity.

The ball is now in humanities court. What will you do with Jesus?

Why is the gospel foolishness to those who are perishing? Is it mental deficiency? Pride? A blind spot in their understanding?

NickCharles
October 12th, 2015, 08:35 AM
God has done all that he can do to save all of humanity.



The ball is now in humanities court. What will you do with Jesus?


So God is impotent in that He is unable to save everyone?

NickCharles
October 12th, 2015, 08:36 AM
Of course. God is not going to save anyone that does not respond to the Gospel with love and thanksgiving.


Then He doesn't love everyone. Which is what Calvinism teaches. I'm glad we are in agreement about that.

Robert Pate
October 12th, 2015, 08:37 AM
Why is the gospel foolishness to those who are perishing? Is it mental deficiency? Pride? A blind spot in their understanding?

The reason that I did not respond to Christ for a number of years is because I loved being a sinner.

I did not get saved until I was 34.

Robert Pate
October 12th, 2015, 08:40 AM
Then He doesn't love everyone. Which is what Calvinism teaches. I'm glad we are in agreement about that.


The Bible teaches that God loves everyone and has tasted death for everyone, Hebrews 2:9.

nikolai_42
October 12th, 2015, 08:40 AM
The reason that I did not respond to Christ for a number of years is because I loved being a sinner.

I did not get saved until I was 34.

So the very thing you rejected ultimately ended up saving you? And the only reason it did was because you chose it? Okay...but if you loved being a sinner, what changed?

NickCharles
October 12th, 2015, 08:43 AM
The Bible teaches that God loves everyone and has tasted death for everyone, Hebrews 2:9.


If it's conditional, it's not really love.

Robert Pate
October 12th, 2015, 08:49 AM
So God is impotent in that He is unable to save everyone?


God has done all that he can do to provide salvation for all.

He now offers salvation to all who do nothing more than call upon his name, Romans 10:13.

God imposes salvation on no one. To do so would make him unjust.

Robert Pate
October 12th, 2015, 08:51 AM
If it's conditional, it's not really love.

Of course its love.

Jesus came into the world to save sinners.

NickCharles
October 12th, 2015, 08:52 AM
God has done all that he can do to provide salvation for all.



He now offers salvation to all who do nothing more than call upon his name, Romans 10:13.



God imposes salvation on no one. To do so would make him unjust.


That does not go against Calvinism. I'm not sure why you'd think so.

Robert Pate
October 12th, 2015, 08:53 AM
So the very thing you rejected ultimately ended up saving you? And the only reason it did was because you chose it? Okay...but if you loved being a sinner, what changed?

I heard the Gospel and the Holy Spirit convicted me of my need for Christ.

I accepted Christ as my savior and repented of my sins.

NickCharles
October 12th, 2015, 08:54 AM
Of course its love.



Jesus came into the world to save sinners.


Not in your view. You view is that He came into the world to try to save sinners. He claims to love everyone, but He really only loves those who love him back.

Robert Pate
October 12th, 2015, 08:55 AM
That does not go against Calvinism. I'm not sure why you'd think so.

Calvinist do not believe that anyone can accept Christ. They believe that you must be chosen.

NickCharles
October 12th, 2015, 08:56 AM
Calvinist do not believe that anyone can accept Christ. They believe that you must be chosen.


Please post anything from any Calvinist writing that supports this. Otherwise, it must be retracted if you have any integrity.

Robert Pate
October 12th, 2015, 08:58 AM
Not in your view. You view is that He came into the world to try to save sinners. He claims to love everyone, but He really only loves those who love him back.


Not true.

"While we were yet sinners Christ died for us" Romans 5:8.

NickCharles
October 12th, 2015, 08:59 AM
Not true.



"While we were yet sinners Christ died for us" Romans 5:8.


I know what scripture says. I'm just explaining what your view ACTUALLY is.

nikolai_42
October 12th, 2015, 09:00 AM
I heard the Gospel and the Holy Spirit convicted me of my need for Christ.

I accepted Christ as my savior and repented of my sins.

What would you say about someone in that position who still rejected Christ? Wouldn't you say he still loved his sins (at least more than Christ - certainly not enough to give them up even though he knew what his end would be)?

Robert Pate
October 12th, 2015, 09:02 AM
Please post anything from any Calvinist writing that supports this. Otherwise, it must be retracted if you have any integrity.


Thats an easy one. Cannons of Dort, First Head: Article #6.

"That some receive the gift of faith from God and others do not proceeds from God's eternal decree".

NickCharles
October 12th, 2015, 09:05 AM
Thats an easy one. Cannons of Dort, First Head: Article #6.



"That some receive the gift of faith from God and others do not proceeds from God's eternal decree".


Yep. Where does that state that not everyone CAN believe? We are talking about ability, not willingness.

Robert Pate
October 12th, 2015, 09:06 AM
I know what scripture says. I'm just explaining what your view ACTUALLY is.


I have work to do. Will return later.

Read the scriptures if you want to know what my view is.

NickCharles
October 12th, 2015, 09:10 AM
I have work to do. Will return later.



Read the scriptures if you want to know what my view is.


You use scripture. You just don't seem to understand them, nor do you use them consistently.

Robert Pate
October 12th, 2015, 01:32 PM
You use scripture. You just don't seem to understand them, nor do you use them consistently.

I understand them completely.

My doctrine is true because it is based upon the Bible, the Gospel and justification by faith, and is confirmed by the Holy Spirit.

What you need to do is get all of your man conceived writings together and throw them in the trash.

Robert Pate
October 12th, 2015, 01:34 PM
Yep. Where does that state that not everyone CAN believe? We are talking about ability, not willingness.

We are all born with the ability to believe in Jesus. It is a normal human attribute.

NickCharles
October 12th, 2015, 02:00 PM
I understand them completely.



My doctrine is true because it is based upon the Bible, the Gospel and justification by faith, and is confirmed by the Holy Spirit.



What you need to do is get all of your man conceived writings together and throw them in the trash.


So should I follow what you say, if I want to be correct?

NickCharles
October 12th, 2015, 02:01 PM
We are all born with the ability to believe in Jesus. It is a normal human attribute.


But not the willingness. Which you've already admitted about yourself.

Robert Pate
October 12th, 2015, 02:07 PM
So should I follow what you say, if I want to be correct?

Read and study the Bible if you want the truth.

NickCharles
October 12th, 2015, 02:09 PM
Read and study the Bible if you want the truth.


So I shouldn't trust what you say then?

Robert Pate
October 12th, 2015, 02:10 PM
But not the willingness. Which you've already admitted about yourself.

The Holy Spirit is in the world calling all to come to Christ.

"Today if you hear his voice, harden not your heart" Hebrews 3:15.

Robert Pate
October 12th, 2015, 02:12 PM
So I shouldn't trust what you say then?

Confirm everything by scripture.

If it isn't according to the Bible scrap it.

NickCharles
October 12th, 2015, 02:12 PM
The Holy Spirit is in the world calling all to come to Christ.



"Today if you hear his voice, harden not your heart" Hebrews 3:15.


But at one point you were not willing, even though you were able. So your earlier point about Calvinism was incorrect.

NickCharles
October 12th, 2015, 02:14 PM
Confirm everything by scripture.



If it isn't according to the Bible scrap it.


I did. Which is why I'm a Calvinist.

Robert Pate
October 12th, 2015, 02:19 PM
But at one point you were not willing, even though you were able. So your earlier point about Calvinism was incorrect.

Before I became a Christian I was hounded by the Holy Spirit, but I just simply dismissed it. I had a Christian wife that was a strong witness for Christ and his Gospel.

Nothing is correct about Calvinism, NOTHING!

NickCharles
October 12th, 2015, 02:21 PM
Before I became a Christian I was hounded by the Holy Spirit, but I just simply dismissed it. I had a Christian wife that was a strong witness for Christ and his Gospel.



Nothing is correct about Calvinism, NOTHING!


Right. You were not willing. It had nothing to do with ability. That is what Calvinism teaches. So your claim that Calvinism teaches that you can't come unless chosen is incorrect.

Robert Pate
October 12th, 2015, 02:22 PM
I did. Which is why I'm a Calvinist.

Calvinism was conceived by John Calvin, not the Bible.

There are many, many, scriptures that are not according to Calvinism.

If you are going to follow Calvinism you will have to deceive yourself and believe lies.

NickCharles
October 12th, 2015, 02:23 PM
Calvinism was conceived by John Calvin, not the Bible.



There are many, many, scriptures that are not according to Calvinism.



If you are going to follow Calvinism you will have to deceive yourself and believe lies.


But I can trust you, right?

Robert Pate
October 12th, 2015, 02:25 PM
Right. You were not willing. It had nothing to do with ability. That is what Calvinism teaches. So your claim that Calvinism teaches that you can't come unless chosen is incorrect.

God chose all of humanity in Jesus Christ.

Salvation has been provided for all, but it is not yours if you don't receive it, John 1:12.

NickCharles
October 12th, 2015, 02:26 PM
God chose all of humanity in Jesus Christ.



Salvation has been provided for all, but it is not yours if you don't receive it, John 1:12.


Not relevant to what I said. We were discussing one of your claims against Calvinism, which I demonstrated was untrue.

musterion
October 12th, 2015, 02:26 PM
Right. You were not willing.

If free will doesn't exist, how could he be?

Robert Pate
October 12th, 2015, 02:36 PM
Not relevant to what I said. We were discussing one of your claims against Calvinism, which I demonstrated was untrue.

You are doing just what I said Calvinist do.

They deceive themselves and believe lies.

NickCharles
October 12th, 2015, 02:37 PM
If free will doesn't exist, how could he be?


Free choice exists. But we cannot chose against our nature. The scriptures clearly teach that man cannot please God in the flesh. But folks like Mr. Pate do not believe that. They think they can do at least one thing in the flesh that pleases God, and that is to believe. So he thinks the natural man can act contrary to his nature, which cannot be proven through scripture.

NickCharles
October 12th, 2015, 02:38 PM
You are doing just what I said Calvinist do.



They deceive themselves and believe lies.


While that may be true, I still showed that your earlier statement about Calvinism is not true.

musterion
October 12th, 2015, 02:39 PM
Free choice exists. But we cannot chose against our nature.

Then it doesn't really exist.

NickCharles
October 12th, 2015, 02:39 PM
Then it doesn't really exist.


Not in the way synergists want.

musterion
October 12th, 2015, 02:45 PM
Not in the way synergists want.

No. It doesn't exist at all, in any reasonable sense of the word "free," if it is predetermined by our nature and cannot violate or contradict that nature. If, on the other hand, God "gives" you "free will," it is (according to Calvinism) only to do that which He has predetermined one will do, and His will cannot be thwarted by ours. In that case, your "free will" still isn't free.

You're not advocating will, you're advocating fatalism at best and puppetry at worst. Divinely orchestrated or mechanistically preprogrammed, what you call "will" isn't because it is not free. Maybe you're happy with that state of affairs, I don't know. But it makes the offer of the Gospel a lie, the stated reasons for damnation a lie, and God a liar.

NickCharles
October 12th, 2015, 02:47 PM
No. It doesn't exist at all, in any reasonable sense of the word "free," if it is predetermined by our nature and cannot violate or contradict that nature. If, on the other hand, God "gives" you "free will," it is (according to Calvinism) only to do that which He has predetermined one will do, and His will cannot be thwarted by ours. In that case, your "free will" still isn't free.

You're not advocating will, you're advocating fatalism at best and puppetry at worst. Divinely orchestrated or mechanistically preprogrammed, what you call "will" isn't because it is not free.

That makes the offer of the Gospel a lie, and God a liar.


So you think you can act contradictory to your nature?

glorydaz
October 12th, 2015, 02:59 PM
Free choice exists. But we cannot chose against our nature. The scriptures clearly teach that man cannot please God in the flesh. But folks like Mr. Pate do not believe that. They think they can do at least one thing in the flesh that pleases God, and that is to believe. So he thinks the natural man can act contrary to his nature, which cannot be proven through scripture.

Your definition of man's nature sure is different than God's. Man was created to know God...the invisible things of Him are clearly seen and understood. They then BECAME vain in their imaginings...professing themselves to be wise they BECAME FOOLS. Therefore, they cannot please God until they turn to Him and worship Him as they were created to do.


Romans 1:19-22
Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,

NickCharles
October 12th, 2015, 03:00 PM
Your definition of man's nature sure is different than God's. Man was created to know God...the invisible things of Him are clearly seen and understood. They then BECAME vain in their imaginings...professing themselves to be wise they BECAME FOOLS. Therefore, they cannot please God until they turn to Him and worship Him as they were created to do.




Romans 1:19-22

Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,


I don't know why you think that counters what I said. I never said it was not in our nature to know God exists.

glorydaz
October 12th, 2015, 03:03 PM
I don't know why you think that counters what I said. I never said it was not in our nature to know God exists.

Believe....the word is believe. That is what you claimed.

NickCharles
October 12th, 2015, 03:04 PM
Believe....the word is believe. That is what you claimed.


Okay. I never said it was not in our nature to believe God exists.

glorydaz
October 12th, 2015, 03:17 PM
Okay. I never said it was not in our nature to believe God exists.

Ah, so you admit we were created by God to know He exists. Since the things of God are clearly seen and understood by us, then it should come as no surprise that we were created to hear His voice. Otherwise, how would you explain this verse?


Romans 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

NickCharles
October 12th, 2015, 03:19 PM
Ah, so you admit we were created by God to know He exists. Since the things of God are clearly seen and understood by us, then it should come as no surprise that we were created to hear His voice. Otherwise, how would you explain this verse?




Romans 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.


I think it means faith comes by hearing. But since not everyone who hears has faith, it doesn't mean that everyone who hears has faith.

glorydaz
October 12th, 2015, 03:26 PM
I think it means faith comes by hearing. But since not everyone who hears has faith, it doesn't mean that everyone who hears has faith.

But aren't you claiming that the natural man is unable to believe?

NickCharles
October 12th, 2015, 03:30 PM
But aren't you claiming that the natural man is unable to believe?


Unwilling. What is meant by that is that they hear the truth. We know it's the truth. But they reject it. So something must occur in order for someone to believe in something that they don't believe in.

If scripture is correct that the gospel is spiritually discerned, then there can not be any way the natural man can believe it's true. And since we cannot please God in the flesh, there's no way the natural man can believe in his natural state. Something must change.

patrick jane
October 12th, 2015, 03:37 PM
Unwilling. What is meant by that is that they hear the truth. We know it's the truth. But they reject it. So something must occur in order for someone to believe in something that they don't believe in.

If scripture is correct that the gospel is spiritually discerned, then there can not be any way the natural man can believe it's true. And since we cannot please God in the flesh, there's no way the natural man can believe in his natural state. Something must change.

you poor soul

NickCharles
October 12th, 2015, 03:38 PM
you poor soul


Why is that?

patrick jane
October 12th, 2015, 03:42 PM
Why is that?

some poor souls never see or feel the connection with God through Jesus Christ, just one of those things.

NickCharles
October 12th, 2015, 03:45 PM
some poor souls never see or feel the connection with God through Jesus Christ, just one of those things.


That's not me. But I appreciate your concern.

Robert Pate
October 12th, 2015, 04:04 PM
Unwilling. What is meant by that is that they hear the truth. We know it's the truth. But they reject it. So something must occur in order for someone to believe in something that they don't believe in.

If scripture is correct that the gospel is spiritually discerned, then there can not be any way the natural man can believe it's true. And since we cannot please God in the flesh, there's no way the natural man can believe in his natural state. Something must change.

On the day of Pentecost thousands heard the Gospel of Jesus Christ and were saved, Acts 2:41 also Acts 4:4.

What occured was the preaching of the Gospel.

They heard, they believed and they were saved.

This is how it happens. "Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God" Romans 10:17. Which is the Gospel.

NickCharles
October 12th, 2015, 04:05 PM
On the day of Pentecost thousands heard the Gospel of Jesus Christ and were saved, Acts 2:41 also Acts 4:4.



What occured was the preaching of the Gospel.



They heard, they believed and they were saved.



This is how it happens. "Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God" Romans 10:17. Which is the Gospel.


I agree. Nothing you said opposes what I said (if that was your intention).

serpentdove
October 12th, 2015, 04:22 PM
If you are going to believe in Calvinism, then you must believe that God creates and gives life to people that are reprobates. He creates and gives life to these reprobates for the sole purpose of sending them to hell...

That is double predestination.

See:

What is double predestination? (http://www.gotquestions.org/double-predestination.html)

serpentdove
October 12th, 2015, 04:25 PM
Then you have an issue since God sends some of those He loves to hell. How can you believe in a God who doesn't love unconditionally?

"God loves you but he'll live without you." ~ J. Vernon McGee 1 Pe 1:16

Robert Pate
October 12th, 2015, 04:26 PM
That is double predestination.

See:

What is double predestination? (http://www.gotquestions.org/double-predestination.html)

How can anyone believe and have faith in a God that would do such a thing?

NickCharles
October 12th, 2015, 04:46 PM
How can anyone believe and have faith in a God that would do such a thing?


Do you believe God knows who will end up in hell before He creates them?

patrick jane
October 12th, 2015, 04:50 PM
That's not me. But I appreciate your concern.

not concerned, just one of those things.

NickCharles
October 12th, 2015, 04:52 PM
not concerned, just one of those things.


I don't understand. Unless you were trying to be insulting. Then it makes sense.

musterion
October 12th, 2015, 05:08 PM
So you think you can act contradictory to your nature?

Focus.

If God -- Who does not lie -- wanted me to believe the Gospel and would have left me in sin if I didn't, then the ability to choose or not choose to obey Him by believing the Gospel IS part of my nature. Else He'd never expect it from me.

Either that or...as I said before...He is a liar, claiming to expect something from me He knows full well I cannot provide.

Seeing your problem yet?

NickCharles
October 12th, 2015, 05:10 PM
Focus.

If God -- Who does not lie -- wanted me to believe the Gospel and would leave me in my sin if I didn't, then the ability to choose or not choose to obey Him by believing the Gospel IS part of my nature.

Else...as I said before...He is a liar.

Seeing your problem yet?


Yes. I see that you do not agree with scripture when it makes differentiations between being in the flesh and being in the spirit.

musterion
October 12th, 2015, 05:13 PM
Yes. I see that you do not agree with scripture when it makes differentiations between being in the flesh and being in the spirit.

Stop being an evasive weasel and answer my last post. Why would God offer to ALL the lost something which He knows they "by nature" (according to you) cannot respond to?

NickCharles
October 12th, 2015, 05:15 PM
Stop being a weasel and answer my last post. Why would God offer to ALL the lost something which He knows they "by nature" (according to you) cannot respond to?


If you ask me a question without the insults, I'll be more than happy to respond.

musterion
October 12th, 2015, 05:17 PM
If you ask me a question without the insults, I'll be more than happy to respond.

You're just like all Calvinists -- you get pinned down on the contradiction between the un-lying nature of God and the lying nature of your misconception of "God" and you turn petulant because you can't answer it.

NickCharles
October 12th, 2015, 05:18 PM
You're just like all Calvinists -- you get pinned down on the contradiction between the un-lying nature of God and the lying nature of your misconception of "God" and you turn petulant because you can't answer it.


Like I said, ask the question without the insult and I will answer.

musterion
October 12th, 2015, 05:18 PM
Like I said, ask the question without the insult and I will answer.

I actually don't need your answer because you've already shown you don't have one. You can't answer it. None of you can.

You're a fraud.

NickCharles
October 12th, 2015, 05:20 PM
I actually don't need your answer because you've already shown you don't have one. You can't answer it. None of you can.

You're a fraud.


Since, as a Christian, you seem unwilling to ask me the question without being abrasive, I guess we will never know if you are correct.

musterion
October 12th, 2015, 05:20 PM
Oh, and I took this as an insult, as well as a lie:


Yes. I see that you do not agree with scripture when it makes differentiations between being in the flesh and being in the spirit.So you insulted me first.

And I know I'm correct. You cannot reconcile God not lying in the Bible with the "God" of Calvinism lying about whom "He" intends to save.

glorydaz
October 12th, 2015, 05:23 PM
Unwilling. What is meant by that is that they hear the truth. We know it's the truth. But they reject it.

Why would they do that? Because they loved darkness more than the light, perhaps?


So something must occur in order for someone to believe in something that they don't believe in.

They have to hear....which is why we preach the gospel. It's the power of God unto salvation for all who hear and believe. There is power in God's word that we were created to hear.


If scripture is correct that the gospel is spiritually discerned, then there can not be any way the natural man can believe it's true. And since we cannot please God in the flesh, there's no way the natural man can believe in his natural state. Something must change.

When you slip in something that isn't true, it nullifies your conclusion. God created us to know Him. You already agreed to that..

Hear Paul tells us there are Gentiles who "do by nature" the things contained in the law.....their God given (conscience) bears witness. Our conscience is awakened by the word of God...which is why the Gospel is the power of God unto salvation. How can they believe unless they hear? How can they hear without a preacher? You seem to think that they can't hear with or without a preacher. :think:


Romans 2:14-15
For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing

So when the light of the glorious gospel shines, and we hear the word of God, we remember God's goodness, longsuffering, and forbearance in our lives which causes us to turn to Him and trust Him. That's what happened to me. :)



Romans 2:4 Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?

NickCharles
October 12th, 2015, 05:24 PM
Oh, and I took this as an insult, as well as a lie:

So you insulted me first.

And I know I'm correct. You cannot reconcile God not lying in the Bible with the "God" of Calvinism lying about whom "He" wants to save.


It was an observation about your view. If you see it as an insult, I apologize and ask for your forgiveness.

musterion
October 12th, 2015, 05:25 PM
Aaaaaaand...he's gone.

Oh, there he is after all.

I forgive you but I do not forgive your doctrine. You need to repent of it -- it is slander against God and His Christ.

NickCharles
October 12th, 2015, 05:27 PM
Why would they do that? Because they loved darkness more than the light, perhaps?







They have to hear....which is why we preach the gospel. It's the power of God unto salvation for all who hear and believe. There is power in God's word that we were created to hear.







When you slip in something that isn't true, it nullifies your conclusion. God created us to know Him. You already agreed to that..



Hear Paul tells us there are Gentiles who "do by nature" the things contained in the law.....their God given (conscience) bears witness. Our conscience is awakened by the word of God...which is why the Gospel is the power of God unto salvation. How can they believe unless they hear? How can they hear without a preacher? You seem to think that they can't hear with or without a preacher. :think:




Romans 2:14-15

For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing



So when the light of the glorious gospel shines, and we hear the word of God, we remember God's goodness, longsuffering, and forbearance in our lives which causes us to turn to Him and trust Him. That's what happened to me. :)






Romans 2:4 Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?


Okay. Since faith comes by hearing, and you state that everyone hears, then you'd have to conclude that all that hear are justified since justification is by faith.

NickCharles
October 12th, 2015, 05:28 PM
Aaaaaaand...he's gone.

Oh, there he is after all.

I forgive you but I do not forgive your doctrine. You need to repent of it -- it is slander against God and His Christ.


I disagree.

musterion
October 12th, 2015, 05:28 PM
Okay. Since faith comes by hearing, and you state that everyone hears, then you'd have to conclude that all that hear are justified since justification is by faith.

???

Unbelievable. Now he's playing dumb.

serpentdove
October 12th, 2015, 05:30 PM
How can anyone believe and have faith in a God that would do such a thing? Such a god isn't just (Deut. 32:4).

NickCharles
October 12th, 2015, 05:31 PM
???

Unbelievable. Now he's playing dumb.


More insults.

Let's do it this way. Does everyone hear, glorydaz says?

glorydaz
October 12th, 2015, 05:33 PM
Yes. I see that you do not agree with scripture when it makes differentiations between being in the flesh and being in the spirit.

Actually, you seem to think being in the flesh means a person is dead. A person is "dead in trespasses and sins" because they are sitting on death row....not because they are zombies.

glorydaz
October 12th, 2015, 05:35 PM
Okay. Since faith comes by hearing, and you state that everyone hears, then you'd have to conclude that all that hear are justified since justification is by faith.

No, all are capable of hearing, but they have selective hearing...like many a man. :chuckle:

NickCharles
October 12th, 2015, 05:35 PM
Actually, you seem to think being in the flesh means a person is dead. A person is "dead in trespasses and sins" because they are sitting on death row....not because they are zombies.


But scripture says that you cannot please God in the flesh. So however you want to portray it, something still must change.

NickCharles
October 12th, 2015, 05:36 PM
No, all are capable of hearing, but they have selective hearing...like many a man. :chuckle:


So one must decide to believe? Is that what you say the text means?

glorydaz
October 12th, 2015, 05:36 PM
More insults.

Let's do it this way. Does everyone hear, glorydaz says?

Please be careful about saying what you think I've said as if I've said it. I know it's tempting, and I may not be as clear as I should, but it's nicer if we can keep it simple.

glorydaz
October 12th, 2015, 05:38 PM
So one must decide to believe? Is that what you say the text means?

No, I didn't decide to believe, any more than I decided to believe it was raining when my clothes got wet.

The rain persuaded me.

NickCharles
October 12th, 2015, 05:38 PM
Please be careful about saying what you think I've said as if I've said it. I know it's tempting, and I may not be as clear as I should, but it's nicer if we can keep it simple.


You said they have to hear. I took it as face value.

NickCharles
October 12th, 2015, 05:39 PM
No, I didn't decide to believe, any more than I decided to believe it was raining when my clothes got wet.



The rain persuaded me.


Wrong question. My mistake. Do they decide to hear?

patrick jane
October 12th, 2015, 05:42 PM
So one must decide to believe? Is that what you say the text means?

"A man hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest" - Simon & Garfunkel

NickCharles
October 12th, 2015, 05:43 PM
"A man hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest" - Simon & Garfunkel


You are quoting pagans to explain scripture?

glorydaz
October 12th, 2015, 05:49 PM
But scripture says that you cannot please God in the flesh. So however you want to portray it, something still must change.

Before I was saved (in the flesh without the Spirit of God in me), I could try to do what I knew was right, but I was doing it by my own efforts. God wants us to be created IN CHIRST Jesus and allow the Spirit to work through us. That is what pleases God. Believing is not something we DO, thus you cannot use the verse about pleasing God to discount believing because believing is not our DOING anything. Our believing is God DOING the PERSUADING. Those who are at a point in their lives where they are persuadable are ready (prepared) to hear God's message of salvation. They hear and believe.

What changes? I was READY to be persuaded by God. I could even list out the things that happened in my life to prepare me. I'm thinking most people can. What makes us ready to finally listen to our Creator? Life happens.

NickCharles
October 12th, 2015, 05:52 PM
Before I was saved (in the flesh without the Spirit of God in me), I could try to do what I knew was right, but I was doing it by my own efforts. God wants us to be created IN CHIRST Jesus and allow the Spirit to work through us. That is what pleases God. Believing is not something we DO, thus you cannot use the verse about pleasing God to discount believing because believing is not our DOING anything. Our believing is God DOING the PERSUADING. Those who are at a point in their lives where they are persuadable are ready (prepared) to hear God's message of salvation. They hear and believe.



What changes? I was READY to be persuaded by God. I could even list out the things that happened in my life to prepare me. I'm thinking most people can. What makes us ready to finally listen to our Creator? Life happens.


Okay. Call it what you want. Is being READY to be persuaded pleasing to God?

glorydaz
October 12th, 2015, 06:00 PM
Okay. Call it what you want. Is being READY to be persuaded pleasing to God?

Being ready isn't something I did, either.

Those with the Spirit dwelling in them are pleasing God....everything they do through the Spirit pleases God. If you really want to dwell on that verse then you should try to understand what Paul is saying there in Romans 8. Hearing and believing the Gospel is not what Paul is talking about. He is saying those without the Spirit can't do anything by their own efforts that will please Him. Notice the DO part. Believing is not something we DO.

NickCharles
October 12th, 2015, 06:04 PM
Being ready isn't something I did, either.



Those with the Spirit dwelling in them are pleasing God....everything they do through the Spirit pleases God. If you really want to dwell on that verse then you should try to understand what Paul is saying there in Romans 8. Hearing and believing the Gospel is not what Paul is talking about. He is saying those without the Spirit can't do anything by their own efforts that will please Him. Notice the DO part. Believing is not something we DO.


So you are saying that you really had no control over your salvation? You didn't actually do anything?

glorydaz
October 12th, 2015, 06:20 PM
You said they have to hear. I took it as face value.


Wrong question. My mistake. Do they decide to hear?

Are you doing this on purpose? It seems to me that you are being evasive rather than responsive. You know, sorta like having a discussion would be nice.

NickCharles
October 12th, 2015, 06:24 PM
Are you doing this on purpose? It seems to me that you are being evasive rather than responsive. You know, sorta like having a discussion would be nice.


No, I asked the wrong question. The question I originally asked was a bit of a non sequitur. I didn't realize my error until you responded.

musterion
October 12th, 2015, 06:24 PM
Are you doing this on purpose? It seems to me that you are being evasive rather than responsive. You know, sorta like having a discussion would be nice.

How long can you hold your breath?

glorydaz
October 12th, 2015, 06:26 PM
So you are saying that you really had no control over your salvation? You didn't actually do anything?

Yeah, that's it in a nutshell.

I was fully persuaded and believed in my heart not just my head. The word of God is powerful. Therefore, I can honestly give the Lord all the glory. All my trust is in Him and has been since the day I heard the Gospel and believed. Now I tell others so they can hear and believe the way I did.

NickCharles
October 12th, 2015, 06:27 PM
Yeah, that's it in a nutshell.



I was fully persuaded and believed in my heart not just my head. The word of God is powerful. Therefore, I can honestly give the Lord all the glory. All my trust is in Him and has been since the day I heard the Gospel and believed. Now I tell others so they can hear and believe the way I did.


Then that's no different than Calvinism.

glorydaz
October 12th, 2015, 06:32 PM
Then that's no different than Calvinism.

Of course it is, but the difference isn't as huge as some would make it. Unless I'm wrong. Calvinists say we are saved so that we can believe. I say it's the Word of God that persuades men to believe. They always fall back on the idea that men aren't able to be persuaded. That's where I see their error in regards to salvation.

NickCharles
October 12th, 2015, 06:57 PM
Of course it is, but the difference isn't as huge as some would make it. Unless I'm wrong. Calvinists say we are saved so that we can believe. I say it's the Word of God that persuades men to believe. They always fall back on the idea that men aren't able to be persuaded. That's where I see their error in regards to salvation.


The word of God is the means God uses to save. We cannot choose to believe, as you say. So either there's something about us that makes us believe (smarter, more humble, more spiritual, etc), or the change comes from without.

musterion
October 12th, 2015, 07:01 PM
The word of God is the means God uses to save.

Not if Calvinistic election is true: the salvation of the elect was unconditionally finished in eternity past; believing the Gospel is simply a meaningless formality that (if persevered in) proves the election took place. All of which makes God a liar because it denies the Gospel and negates faith. You're preaching slander against God.

NickCharles
October 12th, 2015, 07:06 PM
Not if Calvinistic election is true: the salvation of the elect was unconditionally finished in eternity past; believing the Gospel is simply a meaningless formality that (if persevered in) proves the election took place. All of which makes God a liar because it denies the Gospel and negates faith. You're preaching slander against God.


Creating a straw man is a logical fallacy. We are elected unto salvation. Election is not justification, predestination, etc.

glorydaz
October 12th, 2015, 07:40 PM
The word of God is the means God uses to save. We cannot choose to believe, as you say. So either there's something about us that makes us believe (smarter, more humble, more spiritual, etc), or the change comes from without.

Yeah, I've heard that before. Rather than compare ourselves with others, why not compare ourselves with ourselves? So, what is it? That something about us that makes us different than what we were before we really "heard" God's word when it was being preached. I'm thinking people often have a very limited view of that word, "believe". Some believe something as head knowledge, but they aren't willing to believe in their heart. They refuse to trust what they are told. "There have to be some strings attached". "I know I can't be good enough". "Maybe later".

We aren't better, but we are willing to finally trust in our Creator instead of ourselves. We are brought to our knees by life's circumstances....by that unexplained something that we are missing. That person our Creator created us to be. That person knows (clearly seen and understood) that God is the giver of life, and He is offering us His greatest GIFT. We didn't do a thing to earn or deserve that Gift....when He sees we believe in our heart He bestows His gift of Life upon us.

NickCharles
October 12th, 2015, 07:46 PM
Yeah, I've heard that before. Rather than compare ourselves with others, why not compare ourselves with ourselves? So, what is it? That something about us that makes us different than what we were before we really "heard" God's word when it was being preached. I'm thinking people often have a very limited view of that word, "believe". Some believe something as head knowledge, but they aren't willing to believe in their heart. They refuse to trust what they are told. "There have to be some strings attached". "I know I can't be good enough". "Maybe later".



We aren't better, but we are willing to finally trust in our Creator instead of ourselves. We are brought to our knees by life's circumstances....by that unexplained something that we are missing. That person our Creator created us to be. That person knows (clearly seen and understood) that God is the giver of life, and He is offering us His greatest GIFT. We didn't do a thing to earn or deserve that Gift....when He sees we believe in our heart He bestows His gift of Life upon us.


Then we are back to where we were earlier. Finally trust in our creator is something that pleases God. The natural man cannot do so.

glorydaz
October 12th, 2015, 07:52 PM
The word of God is the means God uses to save. .

Thanks to Musterion for highlighting this sentence. The Gospel is the power of God unto salvation. Sorta makes short work of your previous claims. ;)

Romans 1:16
For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

glorydaz
October 12th, 2015, 08:01 PM
Then we are back to where we were earlier. Finally trust in our creator is something that pleases God. The natural man cannot do so.

I did. Now I'm saved. You should, too.

According to you, God believes in Himself for us, and trusts Himself for us. Of course that means that man does have an excuse, but God says we have none.

As I told you before, you should ditch quoting Romans 8 if you continue to misunderstand what Paul was saying there. :nono:

moparguy
October 12th, 2015, 08:09 PM
The God of the Bible is not the same God of Calvinism. The God of the Bible, "So loves the world that he gives his only begotten Son, that whosoever that believes in him should not perish, but have everlasting life" John 3:16.


(John 3:18) Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.

Nevermind Pharoah, and sodom and gommorah, and anninias and saphira, and esau.


The Bible depicts God as being "Long-suffering and not willing that any should perish" 2 Peter 3:9.


(II Peter 3:9) The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance.

Golly, silly me, I thought God got to define who this "you" is:


(II Peter 1:1) Simeon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ,

To those who have obtained a faith of equal standing with ours by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ:

The "you" are those who have a faith given them by Jesus Christ. You know.

Christians.

But nah, God's not able to define what he means, right pate?


The Psalms written by King David, paint a picture of God as being kind, just, merciful, righteous compassionate and long-suffering, Psalm 86:15.


(Psalms 7:11-13)
God is a righteous judge,
and a God who feels indignation every day.

If a man does not repent, God will whet his sword;
he has bent and readied his bow;

he has prepared for him his deadly weapons,
making his arrows fiery shafts.

There's this thing called, letting God tell us what he's like, instead of forcing our unbalanced preconceptions on him.


(Nahum 1:2-6)
The LORD is a jealous and avenging God;
the LORD is avenging and wrathful;
the LORD takes vengeance on his adversaries
and keeps wrath for his enemies.

The LORD is slow to anger and great in power,
and the LORD will by no means clear the guilty.
His way is in whirlwind and storm,
and the clouds are the dust of his feet.

He rebukes the sea and makes it dry;
he dries up all the rivers;
Bashan and Carmel wither;
the bloom of Lebanon withers.

The mountains quake before him;
the hills melt;
the earth heaves before him,
the world and all who dwell in it.

Who can stand before his indignation?
Who can endure the heat of his anger?
His wrath is poured out like fire,
and the rocks are broken into pieces by him.

What do you do with these passages, pate?

Ignore them?

Treat them as if God shouldn't have put them into his revelation?



But the God of Calvinism is none of that. The God of Calvinism predestinates billions to hell for no reason other than they were born after Adam.

Back to the ungodly slandering with untruths.

Calvin did not say WHY some are saved and others are not.

Calvin on romans 9:18:

That our mind may be satisfied with the difference which exists between the elect and the reprobate, and may not inquire for any cause higher than the divine will, his purpose was to convince us of this — that it seems good to God to illuminate some that they may be saved, and to blind others that they may perish: for we ought particularly to notice these words, to whom he wills, and, whom he wills: beyond this he allows us not to proceed.


It is not our fault that we are sinners, its Adam's fault. We are born into sin, Psalm 51:5. We are sinners without works. You cannot make yourself a sinner simply because you were born into sin.

"For as by one man disobedience many were MADE sinners" Romans 5:19.

If by fault you only mean that we have not made ourselves sinners by sinning, than that's proper.

If by "not our fault" you mean by extension, can't be held responsible, this is simply not true. God holds us responsible for being sinners, not merely for sinning.

A person is responsible for something because God has *said they are.* God establishes the rules; we don't and creation doesn't.


No one should be sentenced to hell because they are sinners. No one will go to hell because of sin, they will go to hell because of unbelief and rejection of God's Son, Jesus Christ.

Which you cannot support with God's word.


If you are going to believe in Calvinism, then you must believe that God creates and gives life to people that are reprobates. He creates and gives life to these reprobates for the sole purpose of sending them to hell. How can anyone have faith in a God that would do such a terrible thing as this?

Some of us are actually bound to the teachings of the bible and believe it's God's word and treat it as such.


(Proverbs 16:4) The LORD has made everything for its purpose,
even the wicked for the day of trouble.

(Romans 9:21-24)
Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honored use and another for dishonorable use? What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory— even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?

(I Peter 2:8) and A stone of stumbling, and a rock of offense.
They stumble because they disobey the word, as they were destined to do.

(Jude 1:4) For certain people have crept in unnoticed who long ago were designated for this condemnation, ungodly people, who pervert the grace of our God into sensuality and deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ.

(Romans 11:36) For from him and through him and to him are all things. To him be glory forever. Amen.

ALL things. Even those who will go to hell.

Is God love? Absolutely.

That in no way reduces the fact that God is also Justice, and Holiness, and is wrathful against sinners continually.

The Gospel is Good news because it saves us from the condemnation we justly deserve at the hands of a God who can be nothing less than wrathful against our sin, because our sin and our sinful nature goes against God's very nature.

God is not merely the justifier, he is JUST (righteous, following his law and nature fully in ALL of its aspects).

NickCharles
October 12th, 2015, 08:30 PM
I did. Now I'm saved. You should, too.



According to you, God believes in Himself for us, and trusts Himself for us. Of course that means that man does have an excuse, but God says we have none.
Where have I stated or implied that God believes in Himself for us?






As I told you before, you should ditch quoting Romans 8 if you continue to misunderstand what Paul was saying there. :nono:


7 For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God's law; indeed, it cannot.
8 Those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
9 You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him. - Romans 8:7-9

Paul clearly makes a differentiation between those in the flesh and those in the Spirit. I understand it quite well.

And just so we know what Paul means:

5 For while we were living in the flesh, our sinful passions, aroused by the law, were at work in our members to bear fruit for death.
6 But now we are released from the law, having died to that which held us captive, so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit and not in the old way of the written code.

NickCharles
October 12th, 2015, 08:32 PM
Thanks to Musterion for highlighting this sentence. The Gospel is the power of God unto salvation. Sorta makes short work of your previous claims. ;)



Romans 1:16

For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.


The word of God is the gospel. I'm not sure how this was misunderstood.

patrick jane
October 12th, 2015, 08:36 PM
The word of God is the gospel. I'm not sure how this was misunderstood.

There's more than one piece of good news, nickers

NickCharles
October 12th, 2015, 08:37 PM
There's more than one piece of good news, nickers


Okay.

Robert Pate
October 12th, 2015, 08:43 PM
(John 3:18) Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.

Nevermind Pharoah, and sodom and gommorah, and anninias and saphira, and esau.




(II Peter 3:9) The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance.

Golly, silly me, I thought God got to define who this "you" is:


(II Peter 1:1) Simeon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ,

To those who have obtained a faith of equal standing with ours by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ:

The "you" are those who have a faith given them by Jesus Christ. You know.

Christians.

But nah, God's not able to define what he means, right pate?




(Psalms 7:11-13)
God is a righteous judge,
and a God who feels indignation every day.

If a man does not repent, God will whet his sword;
he has bent and readied his bow;

he has prepared for him his deadly weapons,
making his arrows fiery shafts.

There's this thing called, letting God tell us what he's like, instead of forcing our unbalanced preconceptions on him.


(Nahum 1:2-6)
The LORD is a jealous and avenging God;
the LORD is avenging and wrathful;
the LORD takes vengeance on his adversaries
and keeps wrath for his enemies.

The LORD is slow to anger and great in power,
and the LORD will by no means clear the guilty.
His way is in whirlwind and storm,
and the clouds are the dust of his feet.

He rebukes the sea and makes it dry;
he dries up all the rivers;
Bashan and Carmel wither;
the bloom of Lebanon withers.

The mountains quake before him;
the hills melt;
the earth heaves before him,
the world and all who dwell in it.

Who can stand before his indignation?
Who can endure the heat of his anger?
His wrath is poured out like fire,
and the rocks are broken into pieces by him.

What do you do with these passages, pate?

Ignore them?

Treat them as if God shouldn't have put them into his revelation?




Back to the ungodly slandering with untruths.

Calvin did not say WHY some are saved and others are not.

Calvin on romans 9:18:

That our mind may be satisfied with the difference which exists between the elect and the reprobate, and may not inquire for any cause higher than the divine will, his purpose was to convince us of this — that it seems good to God to illuminate some that they may be saved, and to blind others that they may perish: for we ought particularly to notice these words, to whom he wills, and, whom he wills: beyond this he allows us not to proceed.



If by fault you only mean that we have not made ourselves sinners by sinning, than that's proper.

If by "not our fault" you mean by extension, can't be held responsible, this is simply not true. God holds us responsible for being sinners, not merely for sinning.

A person is responsible for something because God has *said they are.* God establishes the rules; we don't and creation doesn't.



Which you cannot support with God's word.



Some of us are actually bound to the teachings of the bible and believe it's God's word and treat it as such.


(Proverbs 16:4) The LORD has made everything for its purpose,
even the wicked for the day of trouble.

(Romans 9:21-24)
Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honored use and another for dishonorable use? What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory— even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?

(I Peter 2:8) and A stone of stumbling, and a rock of offense.
They stumble because they disobey the word, as they were destined to do.

(Jude 1:4) For certain people have crept in unnoticed who long ago were designated for this condemnation, ungodly people, who pervert the grace of our God into sensuality and deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ.

(Romans 11:36) For from him and through him and to him are all things. To him be glory forever. Amen.

ALL things. Even those who will go to hell.

Is God love? Absolutely.

That in no way reduces the fact that God is also Justice, and Holiness, and is wrathful against sinners continually.

The Gospel is Good news because it saves us from the condemnation we justly deserve at the hands of a God who can be nothing less than wrathful against our sin, because our sin and our sinful nature goes against God's very nature.

God is not merely the justifier, he is JUST (righteous, following his law and nature fully in ALL of its aspects).


Of course God is a God of judgment. He is the just judge. If he didn't judge sin he would not be righteous.

Jesus Christ bore the sins of the world for us. "For he has made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him" 2 Corinthians 5:21.

The problem of sin has already been dealt with in the person of Jesus Christ. God now sees ALL THINGS in his Son Jesus Christ, Colossians 1:20.

You missed it. You missed the Gospel. Jesus said, "Few there be that find it" Matthew 7:14. You haven't found it. You have been blinded by Calvinism.

God is now at peace with the world because of Christ. "And having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile ALL THINGS unto himself; by him, I say, whether there be things in the earth or things in heaven" Colossians 1:20.

No one needs to be predestinated. God has ALREADY reconciled the whole world unto himself by Jesus Christ. Now, all, anyone, everyone that does nothing more than call upon the name of the Lord can be saved, Romans 10:13.

moparguy
October 12th, 2015, 09:27 PM
Shame.

I guess pate *won't* let God tell him what he means.

Robert Pate
October 13th, 2015, 07:07 AM
Shame.

I guess pate *won't* let God tell him what he means.

You, like most religious people, you have a wrong view of God.

You see him as a mean, cruel, unjust, unmerciful, unrighteous tyrant that delights in sending people to hell.

That is NOT the nature of God at all.

The God of the Bible so loves us and the world, that he sends his only begotten Son into the world, to atone for the sins of the world, so that you can have eternal life by doing nothing more than believing in his Son Jesus Christ, John 3:16.

NickCharles
October 13th, 2015, 08:14 AM
You, like most religious people, have a wrong view of God.



You see him as a mean, cruel, unjust, unmerciful, unrighteous tyrant that delights in sending people to hell.



That is NOT the nature of God at all.



The God of the Bible so loves us and the world, that he sends his only begotten Son into the world, to atone for the sins of the world, so that you can have eternal life by doing nothing more than believing in his Son Jesus Christ, John 3:16.


So back to this. Does God create people He knows will end up in hell?

Robert Pate
October 13th, 2015, 08:37 AM
So back to this. Does God create people He knows will end up in hell?


This is probably why you are not a Christian.

You think that you are a Christian, but you are not one.

It is not God's will that any should perish, 2 Peter 3:9.

If anyone goes to hell it will be because they have rejected Christ and his Gospel.

Does God know who these people are? I doubt it, because the angels in heaven rejoice over every sinner that repents and comes to Christ, Luke 15:7 and Luke 15:10.

Does the sower know which seed will sprout and bear fruit?

For now, God sees ALL THINGS in his Son Jesus Christ. When Christ returns we will then know who are his and who are NOT his.

NickCharles
October 13th, 2015, 08:41 AM
This is probably why you are not a Christian.



You think that you are a Christian, but you are not one.



It is not God's will that any should perish, 2 Peter 3:9.



If anyone goes to hell it will be because they have rejected Christ and his Gospel.



Does God know who these people are? I doubt it, because the angels in heaven rejoice over every sinner that repents and comes to Christ, Luke 15:7 and Luke 15:10.



Does the sower know which seed will sprout and bear fruit?



For now, God sees ALL THINGS in his Son Jesus Christ. When Christ returns we will then know who are his and who are NOT his.


That doesn't answer my question. Does God create people He knows will end up in hell?

beloved57
October 13th, 2015, 08:54 AM
NickC


That doesn't answer my question. Does God create people He knows will end up in hell?

Most definitely ! In fact He Created them to that end ! Prov 16:4 ; 2 Pet 2:12

12 But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;

NickCharles
October 13th, 2015, 09:03 AM
NickC







Most definitely ! In fact He Created them to that end ! Prov 16:4 ; 2 Pet 2:12



12 But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;


I understand that. I'm trying to see how many times he will avoid answering my question.

Brother Ducky
October 13th, 2015, 09:06 AM
Before I became a Christian I was hounded by the Holy Spirit, but I just simply dismissed it. I had a Christian wife that was a strong witness for Christ and his Gospel.

Nothing is correct about Calvinism, NOTHING!

So, if a Calvinist believes something, you, by definition believe the opposite?

Dialogos
October 13th, 2015, 09:07 AM
The God of the Bible is not the same God of Calvinism. The God of the Bible, "So loves the world that he gives his only begotten Son, that whosoever that believes in him should not perish, but have everlasting life" John 3:16.

Canard #1, Calvinists love and believe in John 3:16 and believe, like pretty well everyone else, that anyone who believes in Christ will not perish but have everlasting life.

Next.....



The Bible depicts God as being "Long-suffering and not willing that any should perish" 2 Peter 3:9.

Which the Calvinists actually believe far more than you do, Pate.

How many of those that Christ died to save for exhaust God's long-suffering and perish in the fires of hell because God's patience ran out on them, hhmm Pate?

50%? 60%? 70% or more?

You see, we Calvinists actually believe that God is long suffering and unwilling that any of the elect should perish and we believe that 0% of those Christ died to save will perish.

Its actually the Calvinist that believes that verse.



[/B] The Psalms written by King David, paint a picture of God as being kind, just, merciful, righteous compassionate and long-suffering, Psalm 86:15.

Amen.



But the God of Calvinism is none of that. The God of Calvinism predestinates billions to hell for no reason other than they were born after Adam. It is not our fault that we are sinners, its Adam's fault. We are born into sin, Psalm 51:5. We are sinners without works. You cannot make yourself a sinner simply because you were born into sin.

"For as by one man disobedience many were MADE sinners" Romans 5:19.

We inherited sin from our first Father Adam. We all have Adam's blood coursing through our veins. This means that the God of Calvinism is unjust because he sends sinners to hell.

Pate's obejction here paraphrased:

" You will say to me then, "Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?" (Rom 9:19 ESV)

The Apostle Paul's answer:

"But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, "Why have you made me like this?" Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction,in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory--
(Rom 9:20-23 ESV)

Robert, You aren't going to get a better answer than the one Paul gives you.






No one should be sentenced to hell because they are sinners. No one will go to hell because of sin, they will go to hell because of unbelief and rejection of God's Son, Jesus Christ.

Why do you think people reject God's Son in the first place.

Hint, the answer has everything to do with the depravity of the human soul.



If you are going to believe in Calvinism, then you must believe that God creates and gives life to people that are reprobates. He creates and gives life to these reprobates for the sole purpose of sending them to hell. How can anyone have faith in a God that would do such a terrible thing as this?

Who are you, Oh Robert Pate to talk back to God?

Brother Ducky
October 13th, 2015, 09:20 AM
Such a god isn't just (Deut. 32:4).

How is it not "just?"

Robert Pate
October 13th, 2015, 09:27 AM
Canard #1, Calvinists love and believe in John 3:16 and believe, like pretty well everyone else, that anyone who believes in Christ will not perish but have everlasting life.

Next.....


Which the Calvinists actually believe far more than you do, Pate.

How many of those that Christ died to save for exhaust God's long-suffering and perish in the fires of hell because God's patients ran out on them, hhmm Pate?

50%? 60%? 70% or more?

You see, we Calvinists actually believe that God is long suffering and unwilling that any of the elect should perish and we believe that 0% of those Christ died to save will perish.

Its actually the Calvinist that believes that verse.


Amen.


Pate's obejction here paraphrased:

" You will say to me then, "Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?" (Rom 9:19 ESV)

The Apostle Paul's answer:

"But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, "Why have you made me like this?" Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction,in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory--
(Rom 9:20-23 ESV)

Robert, You aren't going to get a better answer than the one Paul gives you.




Why do you think people reject God's Son in the first place.

Hint, the answer has everything to do with the depravity of the human soul.


Who are you, Oh Robert Pate to talk back to God?


If you believe that God creates reprobates so that he can send them to hell, then you have no right to call yourself a Christian. That doctrine came right out of the pits of hell.

Man is not so far depraved that he cannot hear and believe the Gospel. Thousands heard and believed the Gospel on the day of Pentecost, Acts 2:41. Some of which participated in the crucifixon of Christ, Acts 2:36.

"Faith comes by hearing and believing the Gospel" Romans 10:17.

You need to call on Christ to save you, Romans 10:13.

Dialogos
October 13th, 2015, 09:38 AM
If you believe that God creates reprobates so that he can send them to hell, then you have no right to call yourself a Christian.

This isn't a response, just a personal attack.



That doctrine came right out of the pits of hell.

God being in control is a doctrine out of the pits of hell?

:think:



Man is not so far depraved that he cannot hear and believe the Gospel.

Romans 3:10-11



Thousands heard and believed the Gospel on the day of Pentecost, Acts 2:41. Some of which participated in the crucifixon of Christ, Acts 2:36.

That's what ya call, grace.



"Faith comes by hearing and believing the Gospel" Romans 10:17.


Agreed.

So how do you deal with the fact that so many have lived and died without ever hearing?

Did God try and save them with equal effort as everyone else?

:think:

musterion
October 13th, 2015, 10:42 AM
Creating a straw man is a logical fallacy. We are elected unto salvation. Election is not justification, predestination, etc.

It is not a straw man but an accurate distillation of TULIP, which you evidently don't understand.

Following off the premises assumed by Calvinism: if you were unconditionally elected in eternity past, the limited atonement of Christ covered you from eternity past. The quickening to believe it will irresistibly be extended to you in this life, resulting in you persevering to the end. But the actual saving of you was declared as good as done before the overthrow of the world. That's TULIP.

All of the above is God's unthwartable will for you from eternity past, if Calvinism is true and if you're one of the elect. So from eternity past you have been as good as saved, long before you believe the Gospel; indeed long before you even existed.

Thus, faith is not the means through which one is saved. Election is. That's why Calvinism, specifically TULIP, is a denial of Paul's gospel.

NickCharles
October 13th, 2015, 10:46 AM
It is not a straw man but an accurate distillation of TULIP, which you evidently don't understand.

Following off the premises assumed by Calvinism: if you were unconditionally elected in eternity past, the limited atonement of Christ covered you from eternity past. The quickening to believe it will irresistibly be extended to you in this life, resulting in you persevering to the end. That's TULIP.

All of the above is God's unthwartable will for you from eternity past, if Calvinism is true and if you're one of the elect. So from eternity past you have been as good as saved, long before you believe the Gospel; indeed long before you even existed.

Thus, faith is not the means through which one is saved. Election is.


Again, another straw man. We are saved by faith through grace. We are justified by grace.

But let me ask this: do you believe that you were saved from eternity past? Or do you hold to Open Theism where God doesn't know all future events?

musterion
October 13th, 2015, 10:48 AM
Again, another straw man. We are saved by faith through grace. We are justified by grace.

Then you must believe TULIP is a lie.

NickCharles
October 13th, 2015, 10:49 AM
Then you must believe TULIP is a lie.


No. I just actually understand it. And and wonder why you ignored the rest of my post.

musterion
October 13th, 2015, 10:51 AM
No. I just actually understand it. And and wonder why you ignored the rest of my post.

What I actually believe is not one of your options, and I see no point in discussing it with someone as shallow as you.

patrick jane
October 13th, 2015, 10:57 AM
NickC



Most definitely ! In fact He Created them to that end ! Prov 16:4 ; 2 Pet 2:12

12 But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;

nice avatar

musterion
October 13th, 2015, 10:57 AM
When God elected you to salvation in eternity past, was there ever any chance since then that you could still end up in the lake of fire?

NickCharles
October 13th, 2015, 10:57 AM
What I actually believe is not one of your options, and I see no point in discussing it with someone as shallow as you.


I'll explain why it's important. If you believe that God is omniscient, then you must also believe that He knew you'd be saved. Written in stone. Nothing you can do will change that. So you could say that you are saved by omniscience.

Now, we both know that's not the case. But it's the same type of argument that you are making against election. And the fact that every post of yours is peppered with insults makes me believe that you are not as secure with your view as you'd like to be. Otherwise, we'd be able to have a discussion without the insults, accusations, and defensiveness.

NickCharles
October 13th, 2015, 10:59 AM
When God elected you to salvation in eternity past, was there ever any chance since then that you could still end up in the lake of fire?


No. Is there any chance that you would end up in the lake of fire if God knows you'll be saved?

musterion
October 13th, 2015, 11:35 AM
No.

Then, as I said, you were saved by election. Faith had nothing to do with it.

NickCharles
October 13th, 2015, 11:43 AM
Then, as I said, you were saved by election. Faith had nothing to do with it.


Then you are being willfully ignorant of what is taught in reformed theology. You cannot find any reformation writing that supports your conclusion.

musterion
October 13th, 2015, 12:49 PM
You cannot find any reformation writing that supports your conclusion.

TULIP does.

Ask Mr. Religion
October 13th, 2015, 01:51 PM
Man is not so far depraved that he cannot hear and believe the Gospel.
As I have often noted with you, this is the fundamental issue that sets one down one path (synergism) or another (monergism). All other topics necessarily spring from this.

If you want to cavil about Calvinists (among others), you would do well to spend your efforts in attempts at supporting your view: God wills to save all men if they will use the prevenient grace given to them, which they are left at liberty to resist.

AMR

Robert Pate
October 13th, 2015, 03:14 PM
As I have often noted with you, this is the fundamental issue that sets one down one path (synergism) or another (monergism). All other topics necessarily spring from this.

If you want to cavil about Calvinists (among others), you would do well to spend your efforts in attempts at supporting your view: God wills to save all men if they will use the prevenient grace given to them, which they are left at liberty to resist.

AMR


You would do well to stop studying religion and spend more time studying the Bible.

You would find that God in the person of Jesus Christ has provided salvation for everyone and that he imposses salvation on no one.

The examples set forth in the scripture tell us... "That whosoever that shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved" Romans 10:13.

No one is forced to call upon his name. People come to Christ to be saved by him because the Holy Spirit calls them. I was called several times and resisted the call several times.

I have witnessed rejection of Christ many, many times. I have also witnessed acceptance of Christ many, many times. The Holy Spirit is present in the preaching of the Gospel.

I have seen Christ rejectors, grit their teeth, clench their fist, cross their arms, while resisting the call of the Holy Spirit. Sometimes they will grab hold of something and hang onto it until their knuckles turn white, while resisting the call of the Holy Spirit.

You give little value to the power of the Holy Spirit to bring someone to Christ. The Holy Spirit is in the world calling all to come to Christ, Hebrews 3:15. Many, don't enter in because of unbelief.

beloved57
October 13th, 2015, 04:16 PM
You would do well to stop studying religion and spend more time studying the Bible.

You would find that God in the person of Jesus Christ has provided salvation for everyone and that he imposses salvation on no one.

The examples set forth in the scripture tell us... "That whosoever that shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved" Romans 10:13.

No one is forced to call upon his name. People come to Christ to be saved by him because the Holy Spirit calls them. I was called several times and resisted the call several times.

I have witnessed rejection of Christ many, many times. I have also witnessed acceptance of Christ many, many times. The Holy Spirit is present in the preaching of the Gospel.

I have seen Christ rejectors, grit their teeth, clench their fist, cross their arms, while resisting the call of the Holy Spirit. Sometimes they will grab hold of something and hang onto it until their knuckles turn white, while resisting the call of the Holy Spirit.

You give little value to the power of the Holy Spirit to bring someone to Christ. The Holy Spirit is in the world calling all to come to Christ, Hebrews 3:15. Many, don't enter in because of unbelief.

False teaching, makes Salvation depend on what man does!

Those Christ lived and died for He believed for them when He obeyed the Law of God for them! You think He obeyed Gods Law without believing in Him? IF He believed in God then so did they!

Ask Mr. Religion
October 13th, 2015, 04:26 PM
You would do well to stop studying religion and spend more time studying the Bible.

I do so, Robert, daily, and am changed by them, but thank you just the same for the admonishment.

Now can you address the specifics of my post to which you are responding or do you prefer to just ignore them as is customary?

Is it not your view that God wills to save all men, if they will use the prevenient grace given to them, which they are left at liberty to resist?

AMR

Robert Pate
October 13th, 2015, 05:13 PM
I do so, Robert, daily, and am changed by them, but thank you just the same for the admonishment.

Now can you address the specifics of my post to which you are responding or do you prefer to just ignore them as is customary?

Is it not your view that God wills to save all men, if they will use the prevenient grace given to them, which they are left at liberty to resist?

AMR

The Gospel calls for a responce. No responce, no salvation, Hebrews 4:2.

OCTOBER23
October 13th, 2015, 05:16 PM
No one will go to hell because of sin,

they will go to hell because of unbelief and rejection of God's Son, Jesus Christ.

------------------------------------------------

1 Peter 4:18 And if the righteous scarcely be saved,

where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?

GOD IS THE JUDGE

Nanja
October 13th, 2015, 06:09 PM
The Gospel calls for a responce. No responce, no salvation, Hebrews 4:2.



The Election of Grace already had Salvation, forgiveness of sins Eph. 1:7, before they ever believed,
called upon the Lord, or ever responded to the Gospel.

2 Tim. 1:8-9
Be not thou therefore ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me his prisoner: but be thou partaker of the
afflictions of the gospel according to the power of God; Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling,
not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began


The works / efforts of man have nothing at all to do with them obtaining Salvation Eph. 2:8-9.
But the Election of Grace will believe the Truth because they have been Chosen of God!

2 Thes 2:13-14
But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because
God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.


But the non-elect God decreed to everlasting destruction for their sins, according to His Purpose in Election.

Rom. 9:11
(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God
according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth)

~~~~~

musterion
October 14th, 2015, 02:20 AM
Then you are being willfully ignorant of what is taught in reformed theology. You cannot find any reformation writing that supports your conclusion.

Nanja does too.

serpentdove
October 14th, 2015, 07:36 AM
How is it not "just?"

If men never had a chance to respond to him, then they can rightfully say that god is a monster. Thankfully, that's not true (2 Pe 3:9).

See:

OSAS (http://www.vananne.com/applesofgold/Once%20Saved%20Always%20Saved.htm)

Does God Elect Everyone? (http://www.vananne.com/armorofthelord/Does%20God%20Elect%20Everyone.pdf)

Robert Pate
October 14th, 2015, 08:23 AM
If men never had a chance to respond to him, then they can rightfully say that god is a monster. Thankfully, that's not true (2 Pe 3:9).

See:

OSAS (http://www.vananne.com/applesofgold/Once%20Saved%20Always%20Saved.htm)

Does God Elect Everyone? (http://www.vananne.com/armorofthelord/Does%20God%20Elect%20Everyone.pdf)


One would have great difficulty finding someone on this planet that has not heard that Christ died on the cross for sinners.

Dialogos
October 14th, 2015, 10:10 AM
One would have great difficulty finding someone on this planet that has not heard that Christ died on the cross for sinners.
Was that true for people 1 year after Christ's accession into heaven?

NickCharles
October 14th, 2015, 10:13 AM
Was that true for people 1 year after the Christ's accession into heaven?


Or how about the Chinese guy a week after?

NickCharles
October 14th, 2015, 10:16 AM
One would have great difficulty finding someone on this planet that has not heard that Christ died on the cross for sinners.


Just pointing out your ignorance: my church is sponsoring missionaries to go to Papua New Guinea. They will go out to some crazy backwoods area where people have not heard the gospel.

I guess they are willing to be those who will, with difficulty, share the gospel.

Brother Ducky
October 14th, 2015, 10:17 AM
If men never had a chance to respond to him, then they can rightfully say that god is a monster. Thankfully, that's not true (2 Pe 3:9).

See:

OSAS (http://www.vananne.com/applesofgold/Once%20Saved%20Always%20Saved.htm)

Does God Elect Everyone? (http://www.vananne.com/armorofthelord/Does%20God%20Elect%20Everyone.pdf)

I am still not sure how God's actions, as posited by Reformed Folk make him "unjust." If only those who go to hell, go to hell for their own sin[s], God is not unjust.

Robert Pate
October 14th, 2015, 10:54 AM
Just pointing out your ignorance: my church is sponsoring missionaries to go to Papua New Guinea. They will go out to some crazy backwoods area where people have not heard the gospel.

I guess they are willing to be those who will, with difficulty, share the gospel.

It has been reported by missionaries that some remote tribes say that the Gospel is written in the stars.

See, Joseph A. Seiss book "The Gospel in the Stars"

No one has been left out my unbelieving friend.

NickCharles
October 14th, 2015, 10:56 AM
It has been reported by missionaries that some remote tribes say that the Gospel is written in the stars.



See, Joseph A. Seiss book "The Gospel in the Stars"



No one has been left out my unbelieving friend.


So now you want to contradict Paul in Romans 10. When will you start believing scripture?

Robert Pate
October 14th, 2015, 11:29 AM
So now you want to contradict Paul in Romans 10. When will you start believing scripture?

No contradiction.

Salvation has been provided for all, but not all want it.

NickCharles
October 14th, 2015, 11:30 AM
No contradiction.



Salvation has been provided for all, but not all want it.


14 How then will they call on him in whom they have not believed? And how are they to believe in him of whom they have never heard? And how are they to hear without someone preaching?
15 And how are they to preach unless they are sent? As it is written, "How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the good news!" - Romans 10:14-15

Your view contradicts Paul.

Robert Pate
October 14th, 2015, 11:37 AM
14 How then will they call on him in whom they have not believed? And how are they to believe in him of whom they have never heard? And how are they to hear without someone preaching?
15 And how are they to preach unless they are sent? As it is written, "How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the good news!" - Romans 10:14-15

Your view contradicts Paul.

The Holy Spirit is in the world calling all to come to Christ, Hebrews 3:15. You have apparently hardened you heart.

You want to believe that God is a mean, cruel tyrant that enjoys createing reprobates so that he can send them to hell.

NickCharles
October 14th, 2015, 11:39 AM
The Holy Spirit is in the world calling all to come to Christ, Hebrews 3:15. You have apparently hardened you heart.



You want to believe that God is a mean, cruel tyrant that enjoys createing reprobates so that he can send them to hell.


I believe that Paul was telling the truth. You believe he was lying. I'm going with Paul.

Robert Pate
October 14th, 2015, 02:54 PM
I believe that Paul was telling the truth. You believe he was lying. I'm going with Paul.

No, you go against Paul.

NickCharles
October 14th, 2015, 02:57 PM
No, you go against Paul.


Really? You said people could receive the gospel without anyone ever showing up. I'll repeat what Paul said:

14 How then will they call on him in whom they have not believed? And how are they to believe in him of whom they have never heard? And how are they to hear without someone preaching?
15 And how are they to preach unless they are sent? As it is written, "How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the good news!" - Romans 10:14-15

Notice that it says "someone preaching". Nothing about stars. So you are the one who does not believe Paul.

Robert Pate
October 14th, 2015, 03:22 PM
Really? You said people could receive the gospel without anyone ever showing up. I'll repeat what Paul said:

14 How then will they call on him in whom they have not believed? And how are they to believe in him of whom they have never heard? And how are they to hear without someone preaching?
15 And how are they to preach unless they are sent? As it is written, "How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the good news!" - Romans 10:14-15

Notice that it says "someone preaching". Nothing about stars. So you are the one who does not believe Paul.

I know of some that have been saved by just reading the Bible.

NickCharles
October 14th, 2015, 03:28 PM
I know of some that have been saved by just reading the Bible.


And how did that bible get into their hands? Did the stars bring them?

musterion
October 14th, 2015, 03:33 PM
One would have great difficulty finding someone on this planet that has not heard that Christ died on the cross for sinners.

Even if you did, there is still the Law written in the hearts of all, which at some point all have violated. So not hearing the Gospel would not be an excuse.

NickCharles
October 14th, 2015, 03:34 PM
and even if you did, there is still the law the law written in the heart of all, which all at some point have violated. So not hearing the Gospel would not be an excuse.


Right. Because everyone is a lawbreaker, even those who are a law unto themselves.

Robert Pate
October 14th, 2015, 04:21 PM
Even if you did, there is still the Law written in the hearts of all, which at some point all have violated. So not hearing the Gospel would not be an excuse.

Right.

I have found that people that have repentant hearts are the ones that come to Christ.

musterion
October 14th, 2015, 04:25 PM
Right.

I have found that people that have repentant hearts are the ones that come to Christ.

Because it's the natural flipside to John 3:19-20, which is still as true today as it was then.

Isn't it strange that John would write, "...does not come to the Light" when in reality they cannot come to the Light? (if Calvinism is true)

Didn't John know better?

Robert Pate
October 14th, 2015, 04:38 PM
Because it's the natural flipside to John 3:19-20, which is still as true today as it was then.

Isn't it strange that John would write, "...does not come to the Light" when in reality they cannot come to the Light? (if Calvinism is true)

Didn't John know better?

Sometimes people are broken because of financial loss or the loss of a loved one.

Right after world war 2 many became Christians.

Dialogos
October 14th, 2015, 06:40 PM
It has been reported by missionaries that some remote tribes say that the Gospel is written in the stars.

See, Joseph A. Seiss book "The Gospel in the Stars"

No one has been left out my unbelieving friend.

I see, so there is no need for any evangelists, the gospel is in the stars....

:nono:

You still don't see it do you.

Why do some get to hear a preacher proclaiming the gospel using God's word, and others have to dope out the so called gospel in the stars by gazing into the sky on a clear night?

Does that sound "fair" to you?

NickCharles
October 14th, 2015, 10:02 PM
I see, so there is no need for any evangelists, the gospel is in the stars....



:nono:



You still don't see it do you.



Why do some get to hear a preacher proclaiming the gospel using God's word, and others have to dope out the so called gospel in the stars by gazing into the sky on a clear night?



Does that sound "fair" to you?


I'll help. "God has reconciled the world to Himself". Rinse. Repeat.

1Mind1Spirit
October 14th, 2015, 10:23 PM
Because it's the natural flipside to John 3:19-20, which is still as true today as it was then.

Isn't it strange that John would write, "...does not come to the Light" when in reality they cannot come to the Light? (if Calvinism is true)

Didn't John know better?


Wouldn't this come under the heading of God's having subjected them to vanity?

By the way that having nothing to do with their own will.



Romans 8:20 KJV


20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,

Grosnick Marowbe
October 14th, 2015, 11:15 PM
I am still not sure how God's actions, as posited by Reformed Folk make him "unjust." If only those who go to hell, go to hell for their own sin[s], God is not unjust.

Well, first of all, Reformed folk are utterly wrong about most things.
Second of all, Reformed folk are utterly wrong about most things.

NickCharles
October 14th, 2015, 11:23 PM
I'm mildly amused that some folks confuse insults with arguments.

Grosnick Marowbe
October 14th, 2015, 11:30 PM
I'm mildly amused that some folks confuse insults with arguments.

Perhaps, you're just easily amused?

NickCharles
October 14th, 2015, 11:44 PM
Perhaps, you're just easily amused?


Some days.

Brother Ducky
October 15th, 2015, 07:16 AM
Well, first of all, Reformed folk are utterly wrong about most things.
Second of all, Reformed folk are utterly wrong about most things.

That may or may not be true. I would like to think I am educable, but again, that may or may not be true.

However, if one resorts to insults, rather than argument, how in the all human beings [i.e. world] can I be educated?

I asked a question based on a fairly common assertion, that is "God would be unjust if...." If that is the case, it should be easy to make a defense of the position. What makes it unjust when God does it.

Grosnick Marowbe
October 15th, 2015, 07:49 AM
That may or may not be true. I would like to think I am educable, but again, that may or may not be true.

However, if one resorts to insults, rather than argument, how in the all human beings [i.e. world] can I be educated?

I asked a question based on a fairly common assertion, that is "God would be unjust if...." If that is the case, it should be easy to make a defense of the position. What makes it unjust when God does it.

I'm speaking in generalities.

Brother Ducky
October 15th, 2015, 09:24 AM
I'm speaking in generalities.

Fair enough. I rather suspect that if you get outside of a couple of fairly narrow theological areas, Reformed and non-Reformed have far more similarities than differences.

glorydaz
October 15th, 2015, 10:48 AM
That may or may not be true. I would like to think I am educable, but again, that may or may not be true.

However, if one resorts to insults, rather than argument, how in the all human beings [i.e. world] can I be educated?

I asked a question based on a fairly common assertion, that is "God would be unjust if...." If that is the case, it should be easy to make a defense of the position. What makes it unjust when God does it.

What is unjust is the motive man attributes to God.

Robert Pate
October 15th, 2015, 11:18 AM
That may or may not be true. I would like to think I am educable, but again, that may or may not be true.

However, if one resorts to insults, rather than argument, how in the all human beings [i.e. world] can I be educated?

I asked a question based on a fairly common assertion, that is "God would be unjust if...." If that is the case, it should be easy to make a defense of the position. What makes it unjust when God does it.

You are assuming that God does unjust things. God is NEVER unjust, nor does he do unjust things.

Calvinism requires that you must believe that God is unjust.

1Mind1Spirit
October 15th, 2015, 12:17 PM
You are assuming that God does unjust things. God is NEVER unjust, nor does he do unjust things.

Calvinism requires that you must believe that God is unjust.

So God is unjust because poor poor Adam was a creature subject to loving himself more than the creator?

Robert Pate
October 15th, 2015, 12:23 PM
So God is unjust because poor poor Adam was a creature subject to loving himself more than the creator?

Adam was created as innocent. He was not created to sin against his creator. But he had a free will. A free will that was so free that he could sin against his creator if he so desired. We have that same free will. God does not create robots and puppets like you think. What glory does that bring to God?

serpentdove
October 15th, 2015, 12:30 PM
I asked a question based on a fairly common assertion, that is "God would be unjust if...." If that is the case, it should be easy to make a defense of the position. What makes it unjust when God does it.

Defend your position. How is it just for God to send a man to hell who never had a chance to respond to him? More fully develop your view on God's mercy and grace. 2 Pe 3:9, Ac 17:27

1Mind1Spirit
October 15th, 2015, 12:44 PM
Adam was created as innocent.

Innocent of having committed a crime.



He was not created to sin against his creator.

Maybe maybe not.

However all men do.

Why is that?




But he had a free will. A free will that was so free that he could sin against his creator if he so desired. We have that same free will.

Being subject to vanity has an affect on one's will does it not?



God does not create robots and puppets like you think.

How does being a creature that loves itself more than the creator make one a robot or puppet?




What glory does that bring to God?

Ummm, God is bringing us to glory, not the other way around.

1Mind1Spirit
October 15th, 2015, 01:47 PM
Defend your position. How is it just for God to send a man to hell who never had a chance to respond to him? More fully develop your view on God's mercy and grace. 2 Pe 3:9, Ac 17:27

Israel believed there was a God, yet still sought thier own righteousness not God. Vain imagination.

Paul's audience believed there was a God, yet they did not seek him.
They also worshiped their own imaginations.

All men are subject to vanity.

Dialogos
October 15th, 2015, 01:53 PM
Defend your position. How is it just for God to send a man to hell who never had a chance to respond to him?

False assumption. Every single human being on the planet has had a chance to respond to God.

Every single person on the planet failed to do so.

That's the testimony of Romans 1-3.

glorydaz
October 15th, 2015, 02:01 PM
False assumption. Every single human being on the planet has had a chance to respond to God.

True.


Every single person on the planet failed to do so.

Not true.


That's the testimony of Romans 1-3.

Also not true.

NickCharles
October 15th, 2015, 02:05 PM
Defend your position. How is it just for God to send a man to hell who never had a chance to respond to him? More fully develop your view on God's mercy and grace. 2 Pe 3:9, Ac 17:27


Because people are sent to hell because of sin. Hell is a punishment for sin.

Dialogos
October 15th, 2015, 02:35 PM
Not true.

So Paul was just exaggerating when he said the following?

What then? Are we Jews any better off? No, not at all. For we have already charged that all, both Jews and Greeks, are under sin,
10 as it is written: "None is righteous, no, not one;
11 no one understands; no one seeks for God.
12 All have turned aside; together they have become worthless; no one does good, not even one."
13 "Their throat is an open grave; they use their tongues to deceive." "The venom of asps is under their lips."
14 "Their mouth is full of curses and bitterness."
15 "Their feet are swift to shed blood;
16 in their paths are ruin and misery,
17 and the way of peace they have not known."
18 "There is no fear of God before their eyes." (Rom 3:9-18 ESV)

[/quote]
Who, in your view, apart from Christ, isn't under sin, Glorydaz?

Please tell us who sought and found God apart from the gospel..?

Robert Pate
October 15th, 2015, 03:04 PM
The attributes of God are just, mercy and righteous.

This is what makes him holy. To be holy means that you have never been unjust, unmerciful or unrighteous.

Holy also means that you have never failed to keep a promise or have been deceptive.

All of the promises that God made to Israel were fulfilled in Jesus Christ. Jesus is the end and the fulfillment of God's Holy Law.

The justice, mercy and righteousness of God has been revealed to us in the Gospel, Romans 1:16, 17.

Because God is holy, just and righteous he must judge sin.

All of the sins of the world were atoned for in Jesus Christ, 1 John 2:2.

God now sees ALL THINGS in his Son Jesus Christ. As far as God is concerned sin death and the devil have been destroyed and God is at peace with the world, Colossians 1:20.

However, there will be a judgment when Christ returns. It will not be for sins, it will be for unbelievers or those without faith, Revelation 14:7.

In this judgment you will either be found "In Christ" or outside of Christ. If you are outside of Christ your sins will be imputed to you and you will be condemned, Romans 4:8.

If you are "In Christ" the righteousness of Christ will be imputed to you, Romans 4:22.

musterion
October 15th, 2015, 04:57 PM
Because people are sent to hell because of sin. Hell is a punishment for sin.

Reprobates are consigned to damnation before they sin.

NickCharles
October 15th, 2015, 04:58 PM
Reprobates are consigned to damnation before they sin.


So?

glorydaz
October 15th, 2015, 05:45 PM
So Paul was just exaggerating when he said the following?

What then? Are we Jews any better off? No, not at all. For we have already charged that all, both Jews and Greeks, are under sin,
10 as it is written: "None is righteous, no, not one;
11 no one understands; no one seeks for God.
12 All have turned aside; together they have become worthless; no one does good, not even one."
13 "Their throat is an open grave; they use their tongues to deceive." "The venom of asps is under their lips."
14 "Their mouth is full of curses and bitterness."
15 "Their feet are swift to shed blood;
16 in their paths are ruin and misery,
17 and the way of peace they have not known."
18 "There is no fear of God before their eyes." (Rom 3:9-18 ESV)


Who, in your view, apart from Christ, isn't under sin, Glorydaz?

Please tell us who sought and found God apart from the gospel..?

"Isn't under sin"? Are you just going to make stuff up that has nothing to do with your claim? Paul wasn't "exaggerating" but he certainly wasn't contradicting Scripture as your "interpretation" insists. Have you ever bothered to go read "what is written" in Psalm 14 and Psalm 5:5-9 which Paul was quoting? It's the foolish...."their hearts" are being talked about...not all men.

It's the fool who has said in his heart there is no God. That does not mean all men are fools and don't believe in God. We know from reading Romans 1 and 2 that the things of God are clearly seen and understood by the created. It's why men are without excuse. Even the gentiles can do by nature the things contained in the law.


Psalm 14:1-5
The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good. The Lord looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God. They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one. Have all the workers of iniquity no knowledge? who eat up my people as they eat bread, and call not upon the Lord. There were they in great fear: for God is in the generation of the righteous.

There has always been those who are righteous and just (not sin free - and that isn't what Paul is saying).

Why do you ignore Able, Noah and Lot? Mat 23:35 2 Pet 2:7,8


Gen. 6:9 These are the generations of Noah: Noah was a just man and perfect in his generations, and Noah walked with God.


Why do you ignore those who sought the Lord?
Gen. 4:26 And to Seth, to him also there was born a son; and he called his name Enos: then began men to call upon the name of the Lord.

Grosnick Marowbe
October 15th, 2015, 06:27 PM
Because people are sent to hell because of sin.
Hell is a punishment for sin.

Check out Revelation 20:13 "And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and
death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged
every man according to their works.

Why doesn't it say; "Judged by their "sins?" Because, Christ paid
the price of ALL the sins of mankind. However, only those who
place their faith in Christ will benefit from His death and resurrection.

Henceforth, the "unsaved" will be judged by their "works."

NickCharles
October 15th, 2015, 06:28 PM
Check out Revelation 20:13 "And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and
death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged
every man according to their works.

Why doesn't it say; "Judged by their "sins?" Because, Christ paid
the price of ALL the sins of mankind. However, only those who
place their faith in Christ will benefit from His death and resurrection.

Henceforth, the "unsaved" will be judged by their "works."


So hell is not a punishment?

Grosnick Marowbe
October 15th, 2015, 06:31 PM
The attributes of God are just, mercy and righteous.

This is what makes him holy. To be holy means that you have never been unjust, unmerciful or unrighteous.

Holy also means that you have never failed to keep a promise or have been deceptive.

All of the promises that God made to Israel were fulfilled in Jesus Christ. Jesus is the end and the fulfillment of God's Holy Law.

The justice, mercy and righteousness of God has been revealed to us in the Gospel, Romans 1:16, 17.

Because God is holy, just and righteous he must judge sin.

All of the sins of the world were atoned for in Jesus Christ, 1 John 2:2.

God now sees ALL THINGS in his Son Jesus Christ. As far as God is concerned sin death and the devil have been destroyed and God is at peace with the world, Colossians 1:20.

However, there will be a judgment when Christ returns. It will not be for sins, it will be for unbelievers or those without faith, Revelation 14:7.

In this judgment you will either be found "In Christ" or outside of Christ. If you are outside of Christ your sins will be imputed to you and you will be condemned, Romans 4:8.

If you are "In Christ" the righteousness of Christ will be imputed to you, Romans 4:22.

Good post

Brother Ducky
October 15th, 2015, 06:32 PM
What is unjust is the motive man attributes to God.

What motive is being attributed to God that is unjust?

Grosnick Marowbe
October 15th, 2015, 06:35 PM
Fair enough. I rather suspect that if you get outside of a couple of fairly narrow theological areas, Reformed and non-Reformed have far more similarities than differences.

What are the "fairly narrow theological areas?"

Brother Ducky
October 15th, 2015, 06:38 PM
You are assuming that God does unjust things. God is NEVER unjust, nor does he do unjust things.

Calvinism requires that you must believe that God is unjust.

You are quite incorrect in your first statement.

What belief does Calvinism require of one that is unjust? And why is it unjust?

glorydaz
October 15th, 2015, 06:39 PM
What motive is being attributed to God that is unjust?

Creating evil. Creating some for destruction. You can start with those.

glorydaz
October 15th, 2015, 06:41 PM
You are quite incorrect in your first statement.

What belief does Calvinism require of one that is unjust? And why is it unjust?

How about the inability of man to believe God, seek God, hear the Gospel? God says man has no excuse, but those all give him excuses.

NickCharles
October 15th, 2015, 06:42 PM
Creating evil. Creating some for destruction. You can start with those.


19 You will say to me then, "Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?"
20 But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, "Why have you made me like this?"
21 Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use?
22 What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction,
23 in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory- - Romans 9:19-23

I suppose that is God being unjust.

Grosnick Marowbe
October 15th, 2015, 06:43 PM
How about the inability of man to believe God, seek God, hear the Gospel? God says man has no excuse, but those all give him excuses.

Amen.

NickCharles
October 15th, 2015, 06:44 PM
How about the inability of man to believe God, seek God, hear the Gospel? God says man has no excuse, but those all give him excuses.


It's not inability, as in a physical inability. It's a moral inability. It's man's nature to reject God.

glorydaz
October 15th, 2015, 06:45 PM
19 You will say to me then, "Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?"
20 But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, "Why have you made me like this?"
21 Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use?
22 What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction,
23 in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory- - Romans 9:19-23

I suppose that is God being unjust.

No, that is you quoting scripture without an ounce of discernment and zip understanding.

Brother Ducky
October 15th, 2015, 06:46 PM
Defend your position. How is it just for God to send a man to hell who never had a chance to respond to him? More fully develop your view on God's mercy and grace. 2 Pe 3:9, Ac 17:27

I think you are bringing up an issue that is not Reformed/non-Reformed in nature. I can tell you that none shall see hell that does deserve it on the basis of his/her own sin.

Can I assume that you hold that if one has not heard, and dies, s/he goes to heaven?

glorydaz
October 15th, 2015, 06:48 PM
It's not inability, as in a physical inability. It's a moral inability. It's man's nature to reject God.

Don't pretend like you haven't been shown this.


Romans 2:14
For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves.

Grosnick Marowbe
October 15th, 2015, 06:49 PM
It's not inability, as in a physical inability. It's a moral inability. It's man's nature to reject God.

Mankind was, created with a "free-will choice."

Grosnick Marowbe
October 15th, 2015, 06:56 PM
Calvinists try to tell us: "Day is night and night is day." They've been
brainwashed/indoctrinated that way.

Brother Ducky
October 15th, 2015, 07:05 PM
How about the inability of man to believe God, seek God, hear the Gospel? God says man has no excuse, but those all give him excuses.

I think the concepts are part of a Biblical anthropology. And as of now, I have not seen a Biblical anthropology that gives man enough of a free-will to choose to follow Christ.

The issue as I see it is the difference between pre- and post-fall man. Pre-fall man certainly able to believe and seek God. I believe that post-fall man is unable to do so.

musterion
October 15th, 2015, 07:17 PM
No, that is you quoting scripture without an ounce of discernment and zip understanding.

That section was Paul describing God's sovereign use of nations as he sees fit, including Israel... building them up and shattering them like pottery as He sees fit...but it never does any good to try to tell a Calvinist that. They've GOT to make it about individual salvation.

Robert Pate
October 15th, 2015, 07:25 PM
I think the concepts are part of a Biblical anthropology. And as of now, I have not seen a Biblical anthropology that gives man enough of a free-will to choose to follow Christ.

The issue as I see it is the difference between pre- and post-fall man. Pre-fall man certainly able to believe and seek God. I believe that post-fall man is unable to do so.


So, you apparently believe that God chooses some to be saved and damns the rest.

You are teaching that God is an unjust, umerciful, unrighteous tyrant that delights in creating reprobates so that he can send them to hell.

musterion
October 15th, 2015, 07:52 PM
So, you apparently believe that God chooses some to be saved and damns the rest.

You are teaching that God is an unjust, umerciful, unrighteous tyrant that delights in creating reprobates so that he can send them to hell.

Don't forget the lying.

Brother Ducky
October 15th, 2015, 08:26 PM
So, you apparently believe that God chooses some to be saved and damns the rest.

You are teaching that God is an unjust, umerciful, unrighteous tyrant that delights in creating reprobates so that he can send them to hell.

I am more inclined to say that God chooses some to be saved.

But again, just how is that unjust?

glorydaz
October 15th, 2015, 08:29 PM
That section was Paul describing God's sovereign use of nations as he sees fit, including Israel... building them up and shattering them like pottery as He sees fit...but it never does any good to try to tell a Calvinist that. They've GOT to make it about individual salvation.

And how hard can it be to look up what is written? :idunno:

Besides Isaiah 29, we have this especially explicit text in Jeremiah which would refute many of their ideas (including "turn from their evil") if they would just look.

Jeremiah 18:6-10
O house of Israel, cannot I do with you as this potter? saith the Lord. Behold, as the clay is in the potter's hand, so are ye in mine hand, O house of Israel. At what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, and to pull down, and to destroy it; If that nation, against whom I have pronounced, turn from their evil, I will repent of the evil that I thought to do unto them. And at what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it; If it do evil in my sight, that it obey not my voice, then I will repent of the good, wherewith I said I would benefit them.

Brother Ducky
October 15th, 2015, 08:33 PM
What are the "fairly narrow theological areas?"

I would think predestination and for some infant baptism.

You want to throw out some others?

glorydaz
October 15th, 2015, 08:34 PM
I am more inclined to say that God chooses some to be saved.

But again, just how is that unjust?

See, you're claiming God is doing something He does not do, and then asking how that is unjust. You don't see how crazy that is?




That's like saying, "God saves the unbeliever and sends the believer to hell. How is that unjust?"

Brother Ducky
October 15th, 2015, 08:47 PM
Mankind was, created with a "free-will choice."

The question is whether fallen mankind has exactly the same choice, and if fallen mankind can make the choice.

1Mind1Spirit
October 15th, 2015, 10:50 PM
"Isn't under sin"? Are you just going to make stuff up that has nothing to do with your claim? Paul wasn't "exaggerating" but he certainly wasn't contradicting Scripture as your "interpretation" insists. Have you ever bothered to go read "what is written" in Psalm 14 and Psalm 5:5-9 which Paul was quoting? It's the foolish...."their hearts" are being talked about...not all men.

It's the fool who has said in his heart there is no God. That does not mean all men are fools and don't believe in God. We know from reading Romans 1 and 2 that the things of God are clearly seen and understood by the created. It's why men are without excuse. Even the gentiles can do by nature the things contained in the law.


Psalm 14:1-5
The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good. The Lord looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God. They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one. Have all the workers of iniquity no knowledge? who eat up my people as they eat bread, and call not upon the Lord. There were they in great fear: for God is in the generation of the righteous.

There has always been those who are righteous and just (not sin free - and that isn't what Paul is saying).

Why do you ignore Able, Noah and Lot? Mat 23:35 2 Pet 2:7,8


Gen. 6:9 These are the generations of Noah: Noah was a just man and perfect in his generations, and Noah walked with God.


Why do you ignore those who sought the Lord?
Gen. 4:26 And to Seth, to him also there was born a son; and he called his name Enos: then began men to call upon the name of the Lord.

Even Adam prophesied when moved by the Holy Spirit.

So what's yer point?

NickCharles
October 16th, 2015, 06:00 AM
No, that is you quoting scripture without an ounce of discernment and zip understanding.


That would be incorrect. I read what Paul wrote. It's unambiguous.

God has mercy on whom He has mercy. It's His choice.

And there are vessels of wrath prepared for destruction.

Brother Ducky
October 16th, 2015, 06:01 AM
See, you're claiming God is doing something He does not do, and then asking how that is unjust. You don't see how crazy that is?


Obviously there is a difference of opinion on the matter. Godly and sincere people have looked at Scripture and have weighed them in different orders and come to different conclusions. I do not think it is a matter of salvation, although I understand that there are those who would disagree with me on that.

Hypothetically, if God, the creator and sustainer of all that is, seen and unseen, chose some to heaven and some to hell, how would that be unjust?

NickCharles
October 16th, 2015, 06:07 AM
Don't pretend like you haven't been shown this.




Romans 2:14

For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves.


I have read this. It's part of a larger argument Paul is making that all are under sin, even those who are unaware of the law. They are a law unto themselves in other words, they violate their own law that they create for themselves. So even if the never heard the law, they think lying is wrong, yet they've lied. They think stealing is wrong, yet they've stolen. Etc.

No one has an excuse.

NickCharles
October 16th, 2015, 06:08 AM
Mankind was, created with a "free-will choice."


Okay. But we cannot make a choice that goes against our nature. In other words? You cannot just chose what you believe.

NickCharles
October 16th, 2015, 06:10 AM
That section was Paul describing God's sovereign use of nations as he sees fit, including Israel... building them up and shattering them like pottery as He sees fit...but it never does any good to try to tell a Calvinist that. They've GOT to make it about individual salvation.


It is about individuals. But even if it wasn't that doesn't change much because now you are talking about large groups of individuals (nations).

NickCharles
October 16th, 2015, 06:17 AM
And how hard can it be to look up what is written? :idunno:



Besides Isaiah 29, we have this especially explicit text in Jeremiah which would refute many of their ideas (including "turn from their evil") if they would just look.


Jeremiah 18:6-10

O house of Israel, cannot I do with you as this potter? saith the Lord. Behold, as the clay is in the potter's hand, so are ye in mine hand, O house of Israel. At what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, and to pull down, and to destroy it; If that nation, against whom I have pronounced, turn from their evil, I will repent of the evil that I thought to do unto them. And at what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it; If it do evil in my sight, that it obey not my voice, then I will repent of the good, wherewith I said I would benefit them.


The problem with this method is that it's not how Paul's readers would have understood it. They wouldn't have thought that Paul must not mean what's right in front of them, but must want them to go look at some OT passage to determine what he really means.

It cannot mean what Paul didn't intend it to mean. And your view contradicts the straight reading of the passage.

Robert Pate
October 16th, 2015, 08:08 AM
That would be incorrect. I read what Paul wrote. It's unambiguous.

God has mercy on whom He has mercy. It's His choice.

And there are vessels of wrath prepared for destruction.


As usual you have misinterpreted the scripture

Romans 9:22, 23, are the "What If" scriptures. Paul is saying, "What If" and not that is what God does. Read it again.

serpentdove
October 16th, 2015, 08:11 AM
I can tell you that none shall see hell that does deserve it on the basis of his/her own sin.

Responsibility is increased by: sight (Jn 9:39–41), privilege (Jn 15:22, 24), opportunity (Mt 11:20–24), continuance in sin (Mt 23:31–35) and rejection (Mt 10:11–15). Thomas Nelson Publishers. (1996). Nelson’s quick reference topical Bible index (p. 529). Nashville, TN: Thomas Nelson Publishers.

serpentdove
October 16th, 2015, 08:17 AM
Every single human being on the planet has had a chance to respond to God.

Every single person on the planet failed to do so.
:dizzy: Men must: "turn" (Ac 9:35), "repent” (Ac 8:22), "return” (1 Sam 7:3). Thomas Nelson Publishers. (1996). Nelson’s quick reference topical Bible index (p. 526). Nashville, TN: Thomas Nelson Publishers.

Brother Ducky
October 16th, 2015, 08:30 AM
Responsibility is increased by: sight (Jn 9:39–41), privilege (Jn 15:22, 24), opportunity (Mt 11:20–24), continuance in sin (Mt 23:31–35) and rejection (Mt 10:11–15). Thomas Nelson Publishers. (1996). Nelson’s quick reference topical Bible index (p. 529). Nashville, TN: Thomas Nelson Publishers.

OK. Not sure what you are trying to do here.

Robert Pate
October 16th, 2015, 08:36 AM
OK. Not sure what you are trying to do here.

He is telling you that you must respond to Christ and his Gospel.

NickCharles
October 16th, 2015, 08:38 AM
As usual you have misinterpreted the scripture



Romans 9:22, 23, are the "What If" scriptures. Paul is saying, "What If" and not that is what God does. Read it again.


The what if is a rhetorical tool. Paul never makes the point you are making.

Robert Pate
October 16th, 2015, 09:27 AM
The what if is a rhetorical tool. Paul never makes the point you are making.

You are always looking for scripture that you think demeans God's holy, just nature. You apparently think that you have found something in Romans 9.

NickCharles
October 16th, 2015, 09:32 AM
You are always looking for scripture that you think demeans God's holy, just nature. You apparently think that you have found something in Romans 9.


I'm looking at scripture for what it says. You have created an idol that cannot be supported in scripture. So when you get to Romans 9, it doesn't fit with the idol. I don't have that issue. I see God as a God who loves His glory first and foremost, and who abhors sin. I see God as a God who, even though He hates sin, because He Wanted to demonstrate His mercy, chose to save some. He didn't need to. He chose to.

So no, I dint look at scripture in the way you describe. I look at it as is.

Robert Pate
October 16th, 2015, 09:37 AM
I'm looking at scripture for what it says. You have created an idol that cannot be supported in scripture. So when you get to Romans 9, it doesn't fit with the idol. I don't have that issue. I see God as a God who loves His glory first and foremost, and who abhors sin. I see God as a God who, even though He hates sin, because He Wanted to demonstrate His mercy, chose to save some. He didn't need to. He chose to.

So no, I dint look at scripture in the way you describe. I look at it as is.

Unforunately for you, your God does not exist and is NOT the God of the Bible.

The God of the Bible loves the whole world and gives his Son for the sins of the whole world, John 3:16. Many, many scriptures confirm this.

NickCharles
October 16th, 2015, 09:42 AM
Unforunately for you, your God does not exist and is NOT the God of the Bible.



The God of the Bible loves the whole world and gives his Son for the sins of the whole world, John 3:16. Many, many scriptures confirm this.


Again, you make no reasonable arguments. You just come back with these petty insults.

But let's look at this:

“He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.”
**John‬ *3:36‬ *KJV‬‬
http://bible.com/1/jhn.3.36.kjv

and this

“And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.”
**1 John‬ *2:2‬ *KJV‬‬
http://bible.com/1/1jn.2.2.kjv

I'd love to see you reconcile these two verses if "world" means every single person who ever lived.