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Nazaroo
October 12th, 2015, 02:38 AM
The Rapture was invented by Roman Catholics trying to counter the
identification of the Vatican as the Great harlot.

Then Darby, and Scofield, and Hal Lindsay popularized the Rapture,
and now many Protestants think that the Rapture is some kind of Protestant doctrine.

i3hXKNTMuEY

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i3hXKNTMuEY

OCTOBER23
October 12th, 2015, 03:24 AM
THE RAPTURE
----------------

IT IS IN THE BIBLE.

JESUS says that He will go to His Father's House and PREPARE A PLACE FOR THE CHURCH.

REV 12 says that the Church (woman) FLIES TO A PLACE PREPARED BY GOD (JESUS)

For 31/2 years just when Satan is Cast down to the Earth.

REV 3 JESUS says that HE will Keep the Philadelphian Church from the Hour of Testing

(The Great Tribulation of 31/2 years)-(The New Jerusalem):rapture::rapture::rapture:
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

John 14:2 In my Father’s house are many mansions: (The New Jerusalem)

if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

John 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again,

and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

Revelation 12:6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared

by God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.

-- REV 12 There are TWO WOMEN , TWO CHURCHES in Rev 12.
-- One Woman (Philadelphian Church) goes up when Satan is Cast down
and the Second Woman (Laodicean Church) goes up after a little persecution from Satan.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Wilderness -

2048 ἔρημος eremos -- adjective

AV-wilderness desert solitary

1) solitary, uninhabited place

(The New Jerusalem)

Danoh
October 12th, 2015, 04:37 AM
The Rapture was invented by Roman Catholics trying to counter the
identification of the Vatican as the Great harlot.

Then Darby, and Scofield, and Hal Lindsay popularized the Rapture,
and now many Protestants think that the Rapture is some kind of Protestant doctrine.

i3hXKNTMuEY

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i3hXKNTMuEY

Yep; leave it to the ever sensationalizing, ever compromising, lost in his works for salvation, 7th Day Adventist, Doug Batchelor (the man in the video) to know what he is talking about.

Of course, someone else just might follow up with another one of these just as sensationalizing Adventists, as he did on another forum (of course, as he put it then, his Adventist "is a Jew; he knows...")

Hmmm.... we MADists need to get on the ball - it seems we've been "left behind" :chuckle: all the other schools of thought [sic] all have their circus acts suckering in their own into the purchase of more, and more flashy covered books, and videos about "the truth."

The Preterists, the Historicists, the Acts 2ists, the Adventists, the Partial Preterists, the this, that, the other...

In short, Nazaroo :rotfl:

CherubRam
October 12th, 2015, 04:51 AM
The Rapture was invented by Roman Catholics trying to counter the
identification of the Vatican as the Great harlot.

Then Darby, and Scofield, and Hal Lindsay popularized the Rapture,
and now many Protestants think that the Rapture is some kind of Protestant doctrine.

i3hXKNTMuEY

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i3hXKNTMuEY

The term "Rapture" is not biblical, however, there will come a time when the elect will be taken with Christ back into heaven. As for the Christians that are not taken, they will have to wait for the second resurrection.

RBBI
October 12th, 2015, 07:53 AM
The rapture myth came about from a word of prophecy given by a Scottish woman named Margaret MacDonald. It was a spiritual word, to be spiritually understood, but was taken by a man who heard it, into the natural understanding, spread about for him to prosper by and gain materially from.

A close reading of Matt. 13 the parable of the wheat and the tares destroys this myth, as does the understanding of what being born from above (not born again) really is.

Then there is Noah, in whose day only the wicked left the earth; the righteous were raised up above the judgment in the Ark. HE is the Ark of the covenant we are to get into. No one is going to fly away; it's a doctrine whose roots are fear and selfishness. Peace

SaulToPaul
October 12th, 2015, 08:57 AM
Yep; leave it to the ever sensationalizing, ever compromising, lost in his works for salvation, 7th Day Adventist, Doug Batchelor (the man in the video) to know what he is talking about.

Of course, someone else just might follow up with another one of these just as sensationalizing Adventists, as he did on another forum (of course, as he put it then, his Adventist "is a Jew; he knows...")

Hmmm.... we MADists need to get on the ball - it seems we've been "left behind" :chuckle: all the other schools of thought [sic] all have their circus acts suckering in their own into the purchase of more, and more flashy covered books, and videos about "the truth."

The Preterists, the Historicists, the Acts 2ists, the Adventists, the Partial Preterists, the this, that, the other...

In short, Nazaroo :rotfl:

I will agree, Acts 9'ers are the only ones not getting rich off of their doctrine. And, that tells me something.

patrick jane
October 12th, 2015, 09:03 AM
The rapture myth came about from a word of prophecy given by a Scottish woman named Margaret MacDonald. It was a spiritual word, to be spiritually understood, but was taken by a man who heard it, into the natural understanding, spread about for him to prosper by and gain materially from.

A close reading of Matt. 13 the parable of the wheat and the tares destroys this myth, as does the understanding of what being born from above (not born again) really is.

Then there is Noah, in whose day only the wicked left the earth; the righteous were raised up above the judgment in the Ark. HE is the Ark of the covenant we are to get into. No one is going to fly away; it's a doctrine whose roots are fear and selfishness. Peace

1 Thessalonians 4:17 KJV -

SaulToPaul
October 12th, 2015, 09:04 AM
I would not believe in a pre trib rapture either, if I did not accept Paul's ministry as being distinct from the Twelve.

steko
October 12th, 2015, 09:07 AM
Doug Batchelor........oy vey!!!!


AMEN?

SaulToPaul
October 12th, 2015, 09:07 AM
Doug Batchelor........oy vey!!!!


AMEN?

Doug took too many drugs up in that cave in California.

steko
October 12th, 2015, 09:10 AM
Doug took too many drugs up in that cave in California.

Yeah, and......he's proud of it.

steko
October 12th, 2015, 09:21 AM
As for me, I'm looking forward to being caught up to meet the Lord in the air! Yep!

Come Lord Jesus!

SaulToPaul
October 12th, 2015, 09:22 AM
As for me, I'm looking forward to being caught up to meet the Lord in the air! Yep!

Come Lord Jesus!

I am willing, rather, to depart.
I hope it is today.

HisServant
October 12th, 2015, 09:25 AM
People were 'caught up' when they voted for Reagan, or Obama... and the Catholics were 'caught up' when the Pope visited town a few weeks back.

SaulToPaul
October 12th, 2015, 09:27 AM
"Caught Up In the Rapture"
1986
Anita Baker

Good song

False Prophet
October 12th, 2015, 09:34 AM
William Miller started the rapture with the 1843 cleansing of the temple thing which was the great disappointment.

SaulToPaul
October 12th, 2015, 09:38 AM
William Miller started the rapture with the 1843 cleansing of the temple thing which was the great disappointment.

I thought it was Barney Miller in 1974?

steko
October 12th, 2015, 09:41 AM
William Miller started the rapture with the 1843 cleansing of the temple thing which was the great disappointment.

The Apostle Paul started the 'catching up' of believers in the early to mid 50's AD.

steko
October 12th, 2015, 09:42 AM
People were 'caught up' when they voted for Reagan, or Obama... and the Catholics were 'caught up' when the Pope visited town a few weeks back.

Hardly the same thing Paul refers to.

steko
October 12th, 2015, 09:44 AM
I thought it was Barney Miller in 1974?

No, it was Glenn Miller in the 1950's.

patrick jane
October 12th, 2015, 09:49 AM
No, it was Glenn Miller in the 1950's.

SAB Miller, Milwaukee WI

The High Life

SaulToPaul
October 12th, 2015, 09:49 AM
Steve Miller sang about the rapture in the 70s, "Space Cowboy"

patrick jane
October 12th, 2015, 09:54 AM
Steve Miller sang about the rapture in the 70s, "Space Cowboy"

:rotfl:

Reggie Miller was caught up in the air when he had his shot blocked -

HisServant
October 12th, 2015, 10:07 AM
Hardly the same thing Paul refers to.

I disagree

OCTOBER23
October 12th, 2015, 10:12 AM
ELLEN WHITE HAD AN ACCOMPANYING ANGEL THAT SHOWED HER VISIONS

Too bad it was not from God.

WonderfulLordJesus
October 12th, 2015, 10:15 AM
The Apostle Paul started the 'catching up' of believers in the early to mid 50's AD.

Just so, as well as the Lord Jesus, in a more veiled fashion.

Interesting that somebody who subscribes to the Adventists' teaching of the demonstrably false prophet Ellen White should be trying to interpret scripture and teach others. As mystifying is how these people, with logs in their eyes, could possibly see themselves as credible to any Bible believing, born again Christian.

Revelation 22:18-19 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: and if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

steko
October 12th, 2015, 10:16 AM
ELLEN WHITE HAD AN ACCOMPANYING ANGEL THAT SHOWED HER VISIONS

Too bad it was not from God.

Yep!

steko
October 12th, 2015, 10:21 AM
People were 'caught up' when they voted for Reagan, or Obama... and the Catholics were 'caught up' when the Pope visited town a few weeks back.


Hardly the same thing Paul refers to.


I disagree

So......in Thess 4:17, Paul was talking about people being zealous of Reagan, Obama the Pope, etc.

Do you even understand how absurd that is?

HisServant
October 12th, 2015, 10:41 AM
So......in Thess 4:17, Paul was talking about people being zealous of Reagan, Obama the Pope, etc.

Do you even understand how absurd that is?

Do you even understand just how absurd what you are saying is?

Especially, when it already happened.... you need to come to grips with the fact that if you are going to mince words about this fabricated event, then you need to explain away a couple more verses that state that this event already happened.

Livelystone
October 12th, 2015, 11:56 AM
1 Thessalonians 4:17 KJV -

The same as Jesus and the other apostles taught revelations from the OT scriptures so did the apostle Paul. The above verse reference spoken by Paul was another "we speak things in a mystery" and is a NT version of the following OT verse, and from when David took Zion where he set up the tabernacle of David that was a simple tent pitched over the Ark of the Covenant only.

Isaiah 4:5 And the Lord will create upon every dwelling place of mount Zion, and upon her assemblies, a cloud and smoke by day, and the shining of a flaming fire by night: for upon all the glory shall be a defense.

When David took Zion they went up the water shafts where buckets were lowered the same as in a well to lift water up from the pool below that supplied water to Zion in times of sieges . It makes sense that one agile soldier scaled the passage way and then the rest were "caught up" in the buckets lowered down to them

God has always appeared unto man from clouds and smoke from the time of the cloud by day and fire by night in the wilderness to the time of the clouds and fire upon Mt Sinai to the all important clouds of smoke coming from the golden alter of incense that Revelation teaches us represents the prayers of the saints.

Zion represents a higher level of worship and is where God has promised to return His power to and rule from within His Saints coming from the clouds where the tabernacle of David was serviced by 24 High Priests (two from each tribe) and are the 24 elders before the throne.

Those waiting for the church to be physically removed from the earth are only doing so because they have not learned how to become masters of the scriptures through rightly dividing the Word in accordance to all of the laws for determining the truth.

2 Timothy 2:5 And if a man also strive for masteries, yet is he not crowned, except he strive lawfully

One of these laws is no single witness may be used to determine the truth that in NT words says no prophecy may be from "private interpretation". Unfortunately, despite this warning not to do so, is exactly what rapture believers have done with using one verse (2Thess.4:17) to determine a prophecy and then try bend a few more verses in the wrong direction in a pitiful attempt to add support.

It is sad to see so many persons being put at a disadvantage by the enemy through falling for a lie all because of a faulty and unlawful manner of dividing the Word. As God said you will perish because of your lack of knowledge all because you have forgotten the law.......... therefore you will be no priest unto him (one of the 24 elders around the throne)

Hosea 4:6 My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me: seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God, I will also forget thy children.

RBBI
October 12th, 2015, 03:43 PM
AMEN. It's the lazy man's doctrine and it started in 1830. Peace

Cruciform
October 12th, 2015, 04:16 PM
The Rapture was invented by Roman Catholics trying to counter the identification of the Vatican as the Great harlot.
Oops! Try again. The Catholic Church has never taught any such thing, as anyone educated in Catholic theology knows well. Rather, here (http://www.catholicapologetics.org/ap090000.htm) is what the Church teaches on that point.

Danoh
October 12th, 2015, 04:25 PM
I am willing, rather, to depart.
I hope it is today.

We can correct one another where we're each off, on the way up, lol

Danoh
October 12th, 2015, 04:29 PM
Steve Miller sang about the rapture in the 70s, "Space Cowboy"

Also, their "Abra, Cadabra"

Abra, abra, cadabra - I wanna reach out an grab ya!

:)

1Mind1Spirit
October 12th, 2015, 04:43 PM
Looks like that fly away doctrine aint looked upon to kindly by God.

Ezekiel 13:20 KJV


20 Wherefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I am against your pillows, wherewith ye there hunt the souls to make them fly , and I will tear them from your arms, and will let the souls go , even the souls that ye hunt to make them fly .

glorydaz
October 12th, 2015, 04:47 PM
Yep; leave it to the ever sensationalizing, ever compromising, lost in his works for salvation, 7th Day Adventist, Doug Batchelor (the man in the video) to know what he is talking about.

Of course, someone else just might follow up with another one of these just as sensationalizing Adventists, as he did on another forum (of course, as he put it then, his Adventist "is a Jew; he knows...")

Hmmm.... we MADists need to get on the ball - it seems we've been "left behind" :chuckle: all the other schools of thought [sic] all have their circus acts suckering in their own into the purchase of more, and more flashy covered books, and videos about "the truth."

The Preterists, the Historicists, the Acts 2ists, the Adventists, the Partial Preterists, the this, that, the other...

In short, Nazaroo :rotfl:

Uh Oh..... Thanks, Danoh, I had no idea who that guy was, but now I don't have to waste any time on what he's saying.

glorydaz
October 12th, 2015, 04:49 PM
Looks like that fly away doctrine aint looked upon to kindly by God.

Ezekiel 13:20 KJV


20 Wherefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I am against your pillows, wherewith ye there hunt the souls to make them fly , and I will tear them from your arms, and will let the souls go , even the souls that ye hunt to make them fly .

:mock: Not even a good try, but it did make me laugh.

1Mind1Spirit
October 12th, 2015, 04:51 PM
We can correct one another where we're each off, on the way up, lol

Actually, as you wont be flying anywhere, you can prepare to worship at the feet of the saints.:chuckle:

glorydaz
October 12th, 2015, 04:52 PM
As for me, I'm looking forward to being caught up to meet the Lord in the air! Yep!

Come Lord Jesus!

Amen, and again I say Amen.

1Mind1Spirit
October 12th, 2015, 04:55 PM
:mock: Not even a good try, but it did make me laugh.



2 Thessalonians 2:11 KJV


11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

Danoh
October 12th, 2015, 05:00 PM
The rapture myth came about from a word of prophecy given by a Scottish woman named Margaret MacDonald. It was a spiritual word, to be spiritually understood, but was taken by a man who heard it, into the natural understanding, spread about for him to prosper by and gain materially from....

Boy are you off. I read what remains of her letters.

First off, she was a kid - fifteen years old - not a woman.

And hers was a case of the following, made obvious by her writing:

She appears to have been a simple girl who greatly loved the Lord and His Word in her understanding of that.

Much like, say, GT, here on TOL, through much exposure to unsound Bible teaching in which a lot of verses were taught, she came to know, both, a lot of Bible, but from an unsound perspective.

That, coupled with having gone a bit overboard in the practice of the fasting and self-deprivations that were espoused by her assembly, together also, with what had obviously been her fervent desire to hear from God, and what the mind can do with this kind of thing that even today, many ignorantly refer to as "the Spirit's leading..." resulted in delusions she interpreted as from God.

For a fifteen year old kid, she knew tons of passages, the poor soul.

Through which she interpreted her "vision."

And hers was the Post-Trib view popular in her day. She never did espouse a Pre-Trib Rapture.

Now, here's the thing - Darby was a Cessasionist. MacDonald's rants would not have influenced him in the same way it did her and her group, anymore than it would influence today's A9D aka MAD which is also Cessasionist.

NEXT!!!

patrick jane
October 12th, 2015, 05:03 PM
2 Thessalonians 2:11 KJV

that's you !!
:mock: 11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

1Mind1Spirit
October 12th, 2015, 05:04 PM
AMEN. It's the lazy man's doctrine and it started in 1830. Peace

Yep....


Ezekiel 13:10 KJV


10 Because, even because they have seduced my people, saying , Peace; and there was no peace; and one built up a wall, and, lo, others daubed it with untempered morter:


Ezekiel 13:11 KJV

11 Say unto them which daub it with untempered morter, that it shall fall : there shall be an overflowing shower; and ye, O great hailstones , shall fall ; and a stormy wind shall rend it.

1Mind1Spirit
October 12th, 2015, 05:18 PM
:mock: Dispensationism's fly away doctrine.

1Mind1Spirit
October 12th, 2015, 05:41 PM
Boy are you off. I read what remains of her letters.

First off, she was a kid - fifteen years old - not a woman.

And hers was a case of the following, made obvious by her writing:

She appears to have been a simple girl who greatly loved the Lord and His Word in her understanding of that.

Much like, say, GT, here on TOL, through much exposure to unsound Bible teaching in which a lot of verses were taught, she came to know, both, a lot of Bible, but from an unsound perspective.

That, coupled with having gone a bit overboard in the practice of the fasting and self-deprivations that were espoused by her assembly, together also, with what had obviously been her fervent desire to hear from God, and what the mind can do with this kind of thing that even today, many ignorantly refer to as "the Spirit's leading..." resulted in delusions she interpreted as from God.

For a fifteen year old kid, she knew tons of passages, the poor soul.

Through which she interpreted her "vision."

And hers was the Post-Trib view popular in her day. She never did espouse a Pre-Trib Rapture.

Now, here's the thing - Darby was a Cessasionist. MacDonald's rants would not have influenced him in the same way it did her and her group, anymore than it would influence today's A9D aka MAD which is also Cessasionist.

NEXT!!!

It is post trib, just not how you think.

glorydaz
October 12th, 2015, 05:54 PM
2 Thessalonians 2:11 KJV


11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

Ya gotta love these folks who are one post wonders. None of them fit down that rabbit trail they're working on. :chuckle:

steko
October 12th, 2015, 06:09 PM
Boy are you off. I read what remains of her letters.

And hers was the Post-Trib view popular in her day. She never did espouse a Pre-Trib Rapture.

Now, here's the thing - Darby was a Cessasionist. MacDonald's rants would not have influenced him in the same way it did her and her group, anymore than it would influence today's A9D aka MAD which is also Cessasionist.

NEXT!!!


This! :thumb:

everready
October 12th, 2015, 06:09 PM
Oops! Try again. The Catholic Church has never taught any such thing, as anyone educated in Catholic theology knows well. Rather, here (http://www.catholicapologetics.org/ap090000.htm) is what the Church teaches on that point.

Oops' look at this:

The Catholic Origins of Futurism and Preterism

http://www.aloha.net/~mikesch/antichrist.htm

everready

1Mind1Spirit
October 12th, 2015, 07:19 PM
Ya gotta love these folks who are one post wonders. None of them fit down that rabbit trail they're working on. :chuckle:

I dont chase rabbit trails darlin'.

If I kick one up all I gotta do is wait for my dog to chase it back around to me.:p lol

Cruciform
October 12th, 2015, 07:36 PM
Oops' look at this:
Oops! A non-Catholic source that fails to recognize that individual theologians do not constitute---nor speak for---"the Catholic Church" in any official capacity whatsoever. Try again.

My statements in Post #32 therefore stand exactly as made.



Gaudium de veritate,

Cruciform
+T+

RBBI
October 12th, 2015, 07:38 PM
Boy are you off. I read what remains of her letters.

First off, she was a kid - fifteen years old - not a woman.

And hers was a case of the following, made obvious by her writing:

She appears to have been a simple girl who greatly loved the Lord and His Word in her understanding of that.

Much like, say, GT, here on TOL, through much exposure to unsound Bible teaching in which a lot of verses were taught, she came to know, both, a lot of Bible, but from an unsound perspective.

That, coupled with having gone a bit overboard in the practice of the fasting and self-deprivations that were espoused by her assembly, together also, with what had obviously been her fervent desire to hear from God, and what the mind can do with this kind of thing that even today, many ignorantly refer to as "the Spirit's leading..." resulted in delusions she interpreted as from God.

For a fifteen year old kid, she knew tons of passages, the poor soul.

Through which she interpreted her "vision."

And hers was the Post-Trib view popular in her day. She never did espouse a Pre-Trib Rapture.

Now, here's the thing - Darby was a Cessasionist. MacDonald's rants would not have influenced him in the same way it did her and her group, anymore than it would influence today's A9D aka MAD which is also Cessasionist.

NEXT!!!

In her time period, those "girls" were probably getting married and having children, since the life expectancy was much lower then. Be that as it may, I don't know and don't care what half of those man-made doctrinal labels mean. They are not in the Word and therefore are of no interest.

But let's talk what IS in the Word. For instance, tribulation comes from a Greek word for a threshing instrument called a tribulum, used to take the chaff off the wheat/Seed. Circumcising the heart is the principle being revealed in this word, ie. removing the flesh from off the Spirit within so that He might be seen.

Again, the rapture is a LIE, shown to us clearly in Matt. 13 where the parable of the wheat and the tares is explained AGAIN, after He sent the MULTITUDE away, because they only care about their own needs, ie. fishes and loaves.

If you will notice the good seed (Christ) is planted in a field called the "world". Christ IN YOU, the hope of glory tells us where and what that field is in the world. Then we are told that the tares were planted there while he slept. You can try all you want, but you cannot find where HaShem woke Adam up after putting him to sleep, UNTIL Christ comes as prophesied by Isaiah, Arise and shake off the dust, thy light is come.

Those tares are removed by angels (messages, messengers), thrown into the fire (of the HG) and THAT is the end of the world, let him who have an ear, let him hear, meaning it's a MYSTERY, not obvious to the carnally driven mind that only cares about saving it's own skin. And amazingly enough, if you look up the Hebrew word for ANKLE, it runs into a meaning of, THE END OF THE WORLD. Go figure.

Further; the single verse used to support flying away, needs to be dissected also. Like clouds, for instance. Clouds are the smallest particle of something, DUST and water vapor, Adam was taken from the dust of the earth. Men are called clouds without water (no Spirit guiding them) in Jude. We are told that a prophet like unto Moses would be raised up; well, Moses was told to meet Him in the cloud, the cloud being the cloud of incense which we are told represent the prayers of the saints.

Clouds of incense ASCEND. Prayers ASCEND. Flesh DOES NOT ASCEND, except in one way. Make of yourselves a LIVING SACRIFICE, tied down with cords of love that cannot be broken. Those saints under the altar in Revelation? They got there only one way, and that is through the grate on top of it, consumed by fire, until the offering makes a sweet smelling savor unto the Lord.

You want your rapture? There it is, and it's not for the fearful and unbelieving willing to let their brethren face all the destruction they imagine while they sail away. Peace

User Name
October 12th, 2015, 07:44 PM
The Rapture was invented by Roman Catholics trying to counter the
identification of the Vatican as the Great harlot.

I had no idea that Blondie was a Jesuit. I didn't even know she was Catholic! However, I wouldn't be surprised to find out that she is the great harlot...


pHCdS7O248g

Interplanner
October 12th, 2015, 08:12 PM
Nazaroo,
can you provide a source. My research didn't quite end up that way. There was a deflection of accusation of the Pope, but Ribera's solution was to scheme a set of events in Israel, future, and a Jewish antichrist. I don't think he mentioned the 2 stage 2nd coming at all--the rapture.

In the case of the Brethren and the timing of the renewed interest in the rapture, they were in a climate that was really weary of the friction between Protestant and Catholic. So Ribera's scheme (or rehashing it) seemed just the thing. Enter Miss MacDonald. What more innocent way to try to make 2P2P work? God would just be bouncing back and forth between Israel and the church and each would get the attention it needed, and the Pope would not be the AC. Win-win-win.

daqq
October 12th, 2015, 08:29 PM
The same as Jesus and the other apostles taught revelations from the OT scriptures so did the apostle Paul. The above verse reference spoken by Paul was another "we speak things in a mystery" and is a NT version of the following OT verse, and from when David took Zion where he set up the tabernacle of David that was a simple tent pitched over the Ark of the Covenant only.

Isaiah 4:5 And the Lord will create upon every dwelling place of mount Zion, and upon her assemblies, a cloud and smoke by day, and the shining of a flaming fire by night: for upon all the glory shall be a defense.

When David took Zion they went up the water shafts where buckets were lowered the same as in a well to lift water up from the pool below that supplied water to Zion in times of sieges . It makes sense that one agile soldier scaled the passage way and then the rest were "caught up" in the buckets lowered down to them

God has always appeared unto man from clouds and smoke from the time of the cloud by day and fire by night in the wilderness to the time of the clouds and fire upon Mt Sinai to the all important clouds of smoke coming from the golden alter of incense that Revelation teaches us represents the prayers of the saints.

Zion represents a higher level of worship and is where God has promised to return His power to and rule from within His Saints coming from the clouds where the tabernacle of David was serviced by 24 High Priests (two from each tribe) and are the 24 elders before the throne.

Those waiting for the church to be physically removed from the earth are only doing so because they have not learned how to become masters of the scriptures through rightly dividing the Word in accordance to all of the laws for determining the truth.

2 Timothy 2:5 And if a man also strive for masteries, yet is he not crowned, except he strive lawfully

One of these laws is no single witness may be used to determine the truth that in NT words says no prophecy may be from "private interpretation". Unfortunately, despite this warning not to do so, is exactly what rapture believers have done with using one verse (2Thess.4:17) to determine a prophecy and then try bend a few more verses in the wrong direction in a pitiful attempt to add support.

It is sad to see so many persons being put at a disadvantage by the enemy through falling for a lie all because of a faulty and unlawful manner of dividing the Word. As God said you will perish because of your lack of knowledge all because you have forgotten the law.......... therefore you will be no priest unto him (one of the 24 elders around the throne)

Hosea 4:6 My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me: seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God, I will also forget thy children.

Nice post :)

Exodus 33:4-6
4. And when the people heard these evil tidings, they mourned: and no man did put his headgear upon himself.
5. For YHWH said unto Moshe, Say unto the sons of Yisrael, You are a stiffnecked people: I will come up into the midst of you in one wink of an eye and consume you! Now therefore put off your headgear from you; and I know what I will do unto you.
6. And the sons of Yisrael snatched off their headgear from mount Horeb.

1Mind1Spirit
October 12th, 2015, 09:01 PM
Nice post :)

Exodus 33:4-6
4. And when the people heard these evil tidings, they mourned: and no man did put his headgear upon himself.
5. For YHWH said unto Moshe, Say unto the sons of Yisrael, You are a stiffnecked people: I will come up into the midst of you in one wink of an eye and consume you! Now therefore put off your headgear from you; and I know what I will do unto you.
6. And the sons of Yisrael snatched off their headgear from mount Horeb.

:salute:

Those not wearin' any didn't put it on.

Those wearin' some snatched it off like it was ketchin' their head on fire.

No rebels in that wink of an eye. :)

everready
October 12th, 2015, 09:07 PM
Oops! A non-Catholic source that fails to recognize that individual theologians do not constitute---nor speak for---"the Catholic Church" in any official capacity whatsoever. Try again.

My statements in Post #32 therefore stand exactly as made.



Gaudium de veritate,

Cruciform
+T+

O.k. I'll try again.

Early Church Fathers on the Timing of the Rise of Antichrist.

http://www.aloha.net/~mikesch/fathers-on-antichrist.htm

everready

OCTOBER23
October 12th, 2015, 09:54 PM
CRUCIFIRM said,

Oops! The Catholic Church has never taught any thing, as anyone educated in Catholic theology knows well. Rather, here is what the Church teaches on that point...........

PEOPLE GO TO PURGATORY AND WAIT AND WAIT AND WAIT ........AND WAIT
----------------------------------------------------

1Mind1Spirit
October 12th, 2015, 10:09 PM
The rapture myth came about from a word of prophecy given by a Scottish woman named Margaret MacDonald. It was a spiritual word, to be spiritually understood, but was taken by a man who heard it, into the natural understanding, spread about for him to prosper by and gain materially from.

A close reading of Matt. 13 the parable of the wheat and the tares destroys this myth, as does the understanding of what being born from above (not born again) really is.

Then there is Noah, in whose day only the wicked left the earth; the righteous were raised up above the judgment in the Ark. HE is the Ark of the covenant we are to get into. No one is going to fly away; it's a doctrine whose roots are fear and selfishness. Peace

eh_0oaJcMgY

steko
October 12th, 2015, 10:26 PM
The word 'rapture' is a Latin derived word from the Latin Vulgate Bible, which uses the word to translate the Greek word 'harpazo' which is translated in the English, 'caught up' in 1Thess 4:17.

To say the word 'rapture' is not in the Bible is to say it's not in the English Bibles, but the concept is there and communicated by different words, 'caught up'.

Many quibble about the word 'rapture', all the while ignoring or denying what the Scripture says about believers being 'caught up' to meet the Lord in the air.

The Lord Himself will descend from heaven to gather His own unto Himself.

Too bad, professing Christians don't believe what is plainly said about this.

I've said many times before, "I can understand why believers argue about the timing of the rapture, but I can't, for the life of me, understand why they deny the fact of the rapture".

Danoh
October 12th, 2015, 10:39 PM
The word 'rapture' is a Latin derived word from the Latin Vulgate Bible, which uses the word to translate the Greek word 'harpazo' which is translated in the English, 'caught up' in 1Thess 4:17.

To say the word 'rapture' is not in the Bible is to say it's not in the English Bibles, but the concept is there and communicated by different words, 'caught up'.

Many quibble about the word 'rapture', all the while ignoring or denying what the Scripture says about believers being 'caught up' to meet the Lord in the air.

The Lord Himself will descend from heaven to gather His own unto Himself.

Too bad, professing Christians don't believe what is plainly said about this.

I've said many times before, "I can understand why believers argue about the timing of the rapture, but I can't, for the life of me, understand why they deny the fact of the rapture".

It doesn't fit what they see as they look out at things from where they have learned to look at things from.

All issues basically boil down to that.

Lol - only two kinds of people in the world; those who say there are only two kinds of people in the world, and those who say there are not.

steko
October 12th, 2015, 10:45 PM
It doesn't fit what they see as they look out at things from where they have learned to look at things from.

All issues basically boil down to that.

Lol - only two kinds of people in the world; those who say there are only two kinds of people in the world, and those who say there are not.


Yeah, I know.

I find myself hoping that by pointing some things out, that some might give up their unfounded position and actually embrace and believe the Scripture.

SaulToPaul
October 13th, 2015, 09:38 AM
:mock: Dispensationism's fly away doctrine.

Is this prophesying of the evil dispensationalism?

Zech 5
5 Then I turned, and lifted up mine eyes, and looked, and behold a flying roll.

2 And he said unto me, What seest thou? And I answered, I see a flying roll; the length thereof is twenty cubits, and the breadth thereof ten cubits.

3 Then said he unto me, This is the curse that goeth forth over the face of the whole earth: for every one that stealeth shall be cut off as on this side according to it; and every one that sweareth shall be cut off as on that side according to it.

daqq
October 13th, 2015, 10:38 AM
Is this prophesying of the evil dispensationalism?

Zech 5
5 Then I turned, and lifted up mine eyes, and looked, and behold a flying roll.

2 And he said unto me, What seest thou? And I answered, I see a flying roll; the length thereof is twenty cubits, and the breadth thereof ten cubits.

3 Then said he unto me, This is the curse that goeth forth over the face of the whole earth: for every one that stealeth shall be cut off as on this side according to it; and every one that sweareth shall be cut off as on that side according to it.

The flying scroll is the same dimensions as the Porch of the Solomon Temple, (twenty by ten cubits) and represents the same scroll written on both sides in Rev 5&6, (Rev 6:14 is the opening up of the heavenly Temple, that is, the Porch which is represented by the flying scroll). Note the similarities in the verse which follows what you quoted, (Zechariah 5:4) with Leviticus 14 and the house of any man who dwells in the Land:

Zechariah 5:4 KJV
4. I will bring it forth, saith the Lord of hosts, and it shall enter into the house of the thief, and into the house of him that sweareth falsely by my name: and it shall remain in the midst of his house, and shall consume it with the timber thereof and the stones thereof.

If a dweller in the Land does not believe there may be "leprosy" in the walls of his "house" then I suppose he has no need of the Priest, (the Physician and Doctor of the Law). But the Father says that He Himself will put the plague of leprosy in the walls of a house; and I suppose the very reason is to see if indeed His people will come to His Priest to have the house set right:

Leviticus 14:33-45 KJV
33. And the Lord spake unto Moses and unto Aaron, saying,
34. When ye be come into the land of Canaan, which I give to you for a possession, and I put the plague of leprosy in a house of the land of your possession;
35. And he that owneth the house shall come and tell the priest, saying, It seemeth to me there is as it were a plague in the house:
36. Then the priest shall command that they empty the house, before the priest go into it to see the plague, that all that is in the house be not made unclean: and afterward the priest shall go in to see the house:
37. And he shall look on the plague, and, behold, if the plague be in the walls of the house with hollow strakes, greenish or reddish, which in sight are lower than the wall;
38. Then the priest shall go out of the house to the door of the house, and shut up the house seven days:
39. And the priest shall come again the seventh day, and shall look: and, behold, if the plague be spread in the walls of the house;
40. Then the priest shall command that they take away the stones in which the plague is, and they shall cast them into an unclean place without the city:
41. And he shall cause the house to be scraped within round about, and they shall pour out the dust that they scrape off without the city into an unclean place:
42. And they shall take other stones, and put them in the place of those stones; and he shall take other morter, and shall plaister the house.
43. And if the plague come again, and break out in the house, after that he hath taken away the stones, and after he hath scraped the house, and after it is plaistered;
44. Then the priest shall come and look, and, behold, if the plague be spread in the house, it is a fretting leprosy in the house; it is unclean.
45. And he shall break down the house, the stones of it, and the timber thereof, and all the morter of the house; and he shall carry them forth out of the city into an unclean place.

So then if you have "the plague of leprosy" in the walls of your house you go to the Priest and explain to him, "It seems to me that there is as it were the plague of leprosy in the walls of the house", (the flesh) and an appointed time will be set: and when the Priest comes, then the contents inside your house, (YOU) must be emptied out so that the contents be not made unclean, (call no man unclean and the man is not his house). Then shall your house be cleansed. And if the house need be completely demolished, with all the timbers and stones thereof, fear not, for we have a heavenly tabernacle not made with hands with which to be clothed upon from above in the appointed time, (a day which no man knows; the Father only knows it). :)

RBBI
October 13th, 2015, 11:15 AM
eh_0oaJcMgY

Hilarious....loved the song. Boy, you realize how much time has passed when you hear something you heard in high school, don't you? At least we had intelligible words in music, with real musicians. Today's rap is.....don't get me started....:chuckle:

RBBI
October 13th, 2015, 11:17 AM
The flying scroll is the same dimensions as the Porch of the Solomon Temple, (twenty by ten cubits) and represents the same scroll written on both sides in Rev 5&6, (Rev 6:14 is the opening up of the heavenly Temple, that is, the Porch which is represented by the flying scroll). Note the similarities in the verse which follows what you quoted, (Zechariah 5:4) with Leviticus 14 and the house of any man who dwells in the Land:

Zechariah 5:4 KJV
4. I will bring it forth, saith the Lord of hosts, and it shall enter into the house of the thief, and into the house of him that sweareth falsely by my name: and it shall remain in the midst of his house, and shall consume it with the timber thereof and the stones thereof.

If a dweller in the Land does not believe there may be "leprosy" in the walls of his "house" then I suppose he has no need of the Priest, (the Physician and Doctor of the Law). But the Father says that He Himself will put the plague of leprosy in the walls of a house; and I suppose the very reason is to see if indeed His people will come to His Priest to have the house set right:

Leviticus 14:33-45 KJV
33. And the Lord spake unto Moses and unto Aaron, saying,
34. When ye be come into the land of Canaan, which I give to you for a possession, and I put the plague of leprosy in a house of the land of your possession;
35. And he that owneth the house shall come and tell the priest, saying, It seemeth to me there is as it were a plague in the house:
36. Then the priest shall command that they empty the house, before the priest go into it to see the plague, that all that is in the house be not made unclean: and afterward the priest shall go in to see the house:
37. And he shall look on the plague, and, behold, if the plague be in the walls of the house with hollow strakes, greenish or reddish, which in sight are lower than the wall;
38. Then the priest shall go out of the house to the door of the house, and shut up the house seven days:
39. And the priest shall come again the seventh day, and shall look: and, behold, if the plague be spread in the walls of the house;
40. Then the priest shall command that they take away the stones in which the plague is, and they shall cast them into an unclean place without the city:
41. And he shall cause the house to be scraped within round about, and they shall pour out the dust that they scrape off without the city into an unclean place:
42. And they shall take other stones, and put them in the place of those stones; and he shall take other morter, and shall plaister the house.
43. And if the plague come again, and break out in the house, after that he hath taken away the stones, and after he hath scraped the house, and after it is plaistered;
44. Then the priest shall come and look, and, behold, if the plague be spread in the house, it is a fretting leprosy in the house; it is unclean.
45. And he shall break down the house, the stones of it, and the timber thereof, and all the morter of the house; and he shall carry them forth out of the city into an unclean place.

So then if you have "the plague of leprosy" in the walls of your house you go to the Priest and explain to him, "It seems to me that there is as it were the plague of leprosy in the walls of the house", (the flesh) and an appointed time will be set: and when the Priest comes, then the contents inside your house, (YOU) must be emptied out so that the contents be not made unclean, (call no man unclean and the man is not his house). Then shall your house be cleansed. And if the house need be completely demolished, with all the timbers and stones thereof, fear not, for we have a heavenly tabernacle not made with hands with which to be clothed upon from above in the appointed time, (a day which no man knows; the Father only knows it). :)

Good post. What a difference it makes when you study the PATTERN. Like night and day, Amen? Peace

RBBI
October 13th, 2015, 11:33 AM
The word 'rapture' is a Latin derived word from the Latin Vulgate Bible, which uses the word to translate the Greek word 'harpazo' which is translated in the English, 'caught up' in 1Thess 4:17.

To say the word 'rapture' is not in the Bible is to say it's not in the English Bibles, but the concept is there and communicated by different words, 'caught up'.

Many quibble about the word 'rapture', all the while ignoring or denying what the Scripture says about believers being 'caught up' to meet the Lord in the air.

The Lord Himself will descend from heaven to gather His own unto Himself.

Too bad, professing Christians don't believe what is plainly said about this.

I've said many times before, "I can understand why believers argue about the timing of the rapture, but I can't, for the life of me, understand why they deny the fact of the rapture".

I didn't ignore it. I hit it head on here.....

Further; the single verse used to support flying away, needs to be dissected also. Like clouds, for instance. Clouds are the smallest particle of something, DUST and water vapor, Adam was taken from the dust of the earth. Men are called clouds without water (no Spirit guiding them) in Jude. We are told that a prophet like unto Moses would be raised up; well, Moses was told to meet Him in the cloud, the cloud being the cloud of incense which we are told represent the prayers of the saints.

Clouds of incense ASCEND. Prayers ASCEND. Flesh DOES NOT ASCEND, except in one way. Make of yourselves a LIVING SACRIFICE, tied down with cords of love that cannot be broken. Those saints under the altar in Revelation? They got there only one way, and that is through the grate on top of it, consumed by fire, until the offering makes a sweet smelling savor unto the Lord.

You want your rapture? There it is, and it's not for the fearful and unbelieving willing to let their brethren face all the destruction they imagine while they sail away.

Now let's reason this out. If they called men clouds without water, and those men were ON THE GROUND, then common sense dictates that other men are clouds WITH WATER, and they too are on the ground. The word for dust and clouds runs into the same root words in Hebrew. Why? Because clouds are dust. Men were taken from the dust and to the dust they will return.

The only question is their choice in how they become dust, which I also addressed with the grate. No greater love has any man than this.....

Now let's address Him coming in the clouds. How did He come the first time? IN THE FLESH THAT IS DUST. How will He come the second time? IN THE FLESH THAT IS DUST, A MANY MEMBERED CLOUD, that instead of being on the ground where HaSatan was ordered to EAT DUST, RAISED UP/CAUGHT UP, IN HIM, in the firmament, which is heaven. Heaven is not a location, but a state of being. Which is why Yeshua basically said to Nicodemus, I'm standing right here in front of you, but I'm in heaven.

Now the thing about this firmament called heaven is, heaven means literally, something heaved up, LIKE A MOUNTAIN. Let's see now; remember something about men coming up to a mountain to all be taught of the Lord? This is the same mountain that started small and increased. And CHRIST IS, the firmament and the mountain, which is why Christ IN YOU is the hope of glory. It's not THE glory, but the hope of it. And deferred hope maketh the heart sick, and that is what this rapture literal nonsense is doing to the body, giving them a false hope, making their heart sick.

Then what does the scripture say? There are many sick and dying among you because you HAVE NOT DISCERNED THE LORD'S BODY? The Lord is SPIRIT now, hereafter we'll not know Him after the flesh, but after the Spirit. We are caught up IN THE SPIRIT, where the Lord is. Your flesh body profits NOTHING. Peace

1Mind1Spirit
October 13th, 2015, 12:05 PM
Is this prophesying of the evil dispensationalism?

Zech 5
5 Then I turned, and lifted up mine eyes, and looked, and behold a flying roll.

2 And he said unto me, What seest thou? And I answered, I see a flying roll; the length thereof is twenty cubits, and the breadth thereof ten cubits.

3 Then said he unto me, This is the curse that goeth forth over the face of the whole earth: for every one that stealeth shall be cut off as on this side according to it; and every one that sweareth shall be cut off as on that side according to it.

Not just dispensationism.:nono:

jamie
October 13th, 2015, 12:22 PM
Your flesh body profits NOTHING. Peace


Our flesh body profits nothing because it died when we became part of Christ's body. We are now one with him in flesh and in spirit.

1Mind1Spirit
October 13th, 2015, 12:26 PM
Hilarious....loved the song. Boy, you realize how much time has passed when you hear something you heard in high school, don't you? At least we had intelligible words in music, with real musicians. Today's rap is.....don't get me started....:chuckle:

Yep.

Been some time back.

My ear works better these days, I love seeing the Lord in the land of the living.


Romans 10:8 KJV


8 But what saith it ? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is , the word of faith, which we preach ;


Psalm 119:43 KJV


43 And take not the word of truth utterly out of my mouth; for I have hoped in thy judgments.



Proverbs 15:23 KJV


23 A man hath joy by the answer of his mouth: and a word spoken in due season, how good is it!

1Mind1Spirit
October 13th, 2015, 01:17 PM
Now the thing about this firmament called heaven is, heaven means literally, something heaved up, LIKE A MOUNTAIN. Let's see now; remember something about men coming up to a mountain to all be taught of the Lord? This is the same mountain that started small and increased. And CHRIST IS, the firmament and the mountain, which is why Christ IN YOU is the hope of glory. It's not THE glory, but the hope of it. And deferred hope maketh the heart sick, and that is what this rapture literal nonsense is doing to the body, giving them a false hope, making their heart sick.

Peace

Wild mountain honey. :jawdrop: :cheers:

Cruciform
October 13th, 2015, 02:57 PM
O.k. I'll try again. Early Church Fathers on the Timing of the Rise of Antichrist.
Answered here (http://www.catholic.com/tracts/the-antichrist), here (http://www.fisheaters.com/endtimes.html), and here (http://www.catholiceducation.org/en/religion-and-philosophy/apologetics/are-we-living-in-the-last-days.html).

RBBI
October 13th, 2015, 03:15 PM
Wild mountain honey. :jawdrop: :cheers:

Yep. Just as David killed the lion, we have to see the lion as slain to get the honeycomb that enlightens the eyes with wisdom, but you can't get most of them to see it as slain. They'd rather prop it's dead body up and worship it, and throw the honey away to some other passing bear (means slow moving). Fortunately, David slays bears too. :chuckle:

Livelystone
October 13th, 2015, 06:06 PM
Looks like that fly away doctrine aint looked upon to kindly by God.

Ezekiel 13:20 KJV


20 Wherefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I am against your pillows, wherewith ye there hunt the souls to make them fly , and I will tear them from your arms, and will let the souls go , even the souls that ye hunt to make them fly .

Hmmmm......... "pillows" dreaming for what will never happen

Good post, and thanks for sharing the supporting scripture. To bad others (most) cannot connect the dots

Livelystone
October 13th, 2015, 06:38 PM
And hers was the Post-Trib view popular in her day. She never did espouse a Pre-Trib Rapture.
NEXT!!!

Baloney (saying it very kindly)

I am going to call BS on your unsupported words....... or more plainly said you need to come up with some supporting evidence that supports the position you have taken of a POST TRIB RAPTURE being the popular view in her day, as well as and I quote you, "SHE NEVER DID ESPOUSE A PRE-TRIB RAPTURE"...... is more than just a figment of your imagination

Truth is she imagined a rapture in the order of the popular belief of that time period that supported a time linear revelation of events as depicted in the order they are listed in the scriptures with the tribulation occurring in the same order the Book of Revelation appears after IThes. 4:16-18

It is not just that you are wrong, and way wrong at that! I would like to see proof backing up your claims of her supporting a post trib rapture doctrine have more support than just your own wishful IMAGINATION AKA "dreams" as all rapture supporters are known to be suffering from! :chuckle:

Fair enough?

WonderfulLordJesus
October 13th, 2015, 06:49 PM
I was sucked into the theology of the rapture a long, long time ago. This happened when I learned those parts of the Bible. If anybody wonders, last I checked, those verses are still there.

Angel4Truth
October 13th, 2015, 06:57 PM
The Rapture was invented by Roman Catholics trying to counter the
identification of the Vatican as the Great harlot.

Then Darby, and Scofield, and Hal Lindsay popularized the Rapture,
and now many Protestants think that the Rapture is some kind of Protestant doctrine.



Already proven false -

Irenaeus(130 ad to 202 ad) in his writing "Against Heresies - 5.29"


“Those nations however, who did not of themselves raise up their eyes unto heaven, nor returned thanks to their Maker, nor wished to behold the light of truth, but who were like blind mice concealed in the depths of ignorance, the word justly reckons “as waste water from a sink, and as the turning-weight of a balance — in fact, as nothing;”(1) so far useful and serviceable to the just, as stubble conduces towards the growth of the wheat, and its straw, by means of combustion, serves for working gold. And therefore, when in the end the Church shall be suddenly caught up from this, it is said, “There shall be tribulation such as has not been since the beginning, neither shall be.”(2) For this is the last contest of the righteous, in which, when they overcome they are crowned with incorruption.”

Cyprian (200 AD – 258 AD) In "Treatises of Cyprian":


“We who see that terrible things have begun, and know that still more terrible things are imminent, may regard it as the greatest advantage to depart from it as quickly as possible. Do you not give God thanks, do you not congratulate yourself, that by an early departure you are taken away, and delivered from the shipwrecks and disasters that are imminent? Let us greet the day which assigns each of us to his own home, which snatches us hence, and sets us free from the snares of the world and restores us to paradise and the kingdom.”

Ephraim The Syrian (306 AD – 373 AD) In his work, "On The Last Times 2", he wrote:




..Or do you not believe unless you see with your eyes? See to it that this sentence be not fulfilled among you of the prophet who declares: “Woe to those who desire to see the day of the Lord!” For all the saints and elect of God are gathered, prior to the tribulation that is to come, and are taken to the Lord lest they see the confusion that is to overwhelm the world because of our sins. And so, brothers most dear to me, it is the eleventh hour, and the end of the world comes to the harvest, and angels, armed and prepared, hold sickles in their hands, awaiting the empire of the Lord. And we think that the earth exists with blind infidelity, arriving at its downfall early. Commotions are brought forth, wars of diverse peoples and battles and incursions of the barbarians threaten, and our regions shall be desolated, and we neither become very much afraid of the report nor of the appearance, in order that we may at least do penance; because they hurl fear at us, and we do not wish to be changed, although we at least stand in need of penance for our actions!”

Then of course the bible describes it and thats where it came from, so anyone claiming the darby junk is just flat out wrong, its long been debunked.

Livelystone
October 13th, 2015, 07:06 PM
Nice post :)

Exodus 33:4-6
4. And when the people heard these evil tidings, they mourned: and no man did put his headgear upon himself.
5. For YHWH said unto Moshe, Say unto the sons of Yisrael, You are a stiffnecked people: I will come up into the midst of you in one wink of an eye and consume you! Now therefore put off your headgear from you; and I know what I will do unto you.
6. And the sons of Yisrael snatched off their headgear from mount Horeb.

Thank you for the kind words and the verses you have shared!

You, 1M1S, and RBBI have all contributed to this thread in a manner that has caused the saints in Heaven to shout out "Praise the Lord for those on earth who have eyes that see and ears that hear"

IMO the future of the remnant to be revealed in the last days rests on persons such as those named above, as well as any other likeminded voices whom I may have overlooked :thumb:

I just don't know what to say about MAD followers other than to feel sorry and pray for sheep following a blind goat....... it is sad to say the least

WonderfulLordJesus
October 13th, 2015, 07:13 PM
Then of course the bible describes it and thats where it came from, so anyone claiming the darby junk is just flat out wrong, its long been debunked.

I also always get a kick out of the old, "The word rapture isn't even in the Bible!" Other than being completely sophomoric, strange they would use such an argument, since the word Bible isn't in the Bible, either.

Livelystone
October 13th, 2015, 07:19 PM
I was sucked into the theology of the rapture a long, long time ago. This happened when I learned those parts of the Bible. If anybody wonders, last I checked, those verses are still there.

During your studies of the scriptures did you come across the Lord's Prayer that teaches us to pray for His Kingdom to come to earth rather than the other way around as the rapture doctrine teaches and is leading many within the Body of Christ to fall for?

Usually the red letter words mean more to those who need help understanding the rest of the scriptures :D

Just saying,

Angel4Truth
October 13th, 2015, 07:21 PM
During your studies of the scriptures did you come across the Lord's Prayer that teaches us to pray for His Kingdom to come to earth rather than the other way around as the rapture doctrine teaches and is leading many within the Body of Christ to fall for?

Usually the red letter words mean more to those who need help understanding the rest of the scriptures :D

Just saying,

Just saying, you miss that the rapture and second coming are 2 different events. He doesn't come to earth at the rapture. We are caught to up to meet Him.

1 Thessalonians 4:17 Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord.

1Mind1Spirit
October 13th, 2015, 07:23 PM
Already proven false -

Irenaeus(130 ad to 202 ad) in his writing "Against Heresies - 5.29"



Cyprian (200 AD – 258 AD) In "Treatises of Cyprian":



Ephraim The Syrian (306 AD – 373 AD) In his work, "On The Last Times 2", he wrote:



Then of course the bible describes it and thats where it came from, so anyone claiming the darby junk is just flat out wrong, its long been debunked.

So Darby and LaHaye rate right up there with the wolves who entered in right after the demise of Peter and Paul.

AKA Catholics.

In case you didn't realize it the protestants have spent several hundred years heaping teachers to themselves.

Darby and his ilk have now popularized dispensationism to the point it has spread like evil leaven throughout most protestant denominations.

It matters little if they were the originators of it.:deadhorse:

Danoh
October 13th, 2015, 07:26 PM
During your studies of the scriptures did you come across the Lord's Prayer that teaches us to pray for His Kingdom to come to earth rather than the other way around as the rapture doctrine teaches and is leading many within the Body of Christ to fall for?

Usually the red letter words mean more to those who need help understanding the rest of the scriptures :D

Just saying,

This side of the Lord's personally hand picked Apostle to the Gentiles; those red letters are the mark of a big fat "F" on your kind of thinking, Livelystone; for your failure to rightly divide the word of truth.

Angel4Truth
October 13th, 2015, 07:26 PM
So Darby and LaHaye rate right up there with the wolves who entered in right after the demise of Peter and Paul.

AKA Catholics.

In case you didn't realize it the protestants have spent several hundred years heaping teachers to themselves.

Darby and his ilk have popularized dispensationism to the point it has spread like evil leaven throughout most protestant denominations.

It matters little if they were the originators of it.:deadhorse:

There was no Roman Catholic church in 100 ad. I have proven beyond any doubt that the rapture teaching, didnt start with darby like some of you falsely claim, it was taught very early on and is in the bible- you and some others though you know it has long been debunked yet continue to spout what you know is a lie.

This thread is about the rapture, if you wish to discuss dispensationalism with me, direct me to your thread about it, i am here to debunk the false claim made in the op, which ive done.

Danoh
October 13th, 2015, 07:31 PM
So Darby and LaHaye rate right up there with the wolves who entered in right after the demise of Peter and Paul.

AKA Catholics.

In case you didn't realize it the protestants have spent several hundred years heaping teachers to themselves.

Darby and his ilk have now popularized dispensationism to the point it has spread like evil leaven throughout most protestant denominations.

It matters little if they were the originators of it.:deadhorse:

Might as well conclude the same about Martin Luther for letting the Rom. 5: 1- 2 cat - OSAS - out of the bag; just because so many abuse it.

1Mind1Spirit
October 13th, 2015, 07:39 PM
Just saying, you miss that the rapture and second coming are 2 different events. He doesn't come to earth at the rapture. We are caught to up to meet Him.

1 Thessalonians 4:17 Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord.

So you reckon these folks are still walkin' around here 2,000 years later?


Matthew 16:28 KJV


28 Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.

WonderfulLordJesus
October 13th, 2015, 07:39 PM
During your studies of the scriptures did you come across the Lord's Prayer that teaches us to pray for His Kingdom to come to earth rather than the other way around as the rapture doctrine teaches and is leading many within the Body of Christ to fall for?

Usually the red letter words mean more to those who need help understanding the rest of the scriptures :D

Just saying,

Sometimes, you just don't know where to start. It's probably something you shouldn't get "caught up" in. Just saying.

steko
October 13th, 2015, 07:41 PM
During your studies of the scriptures did you come across the Lord's Prayer that teaches us to pray for His Kingdom to come to earth rather than the other way around as the rapture doctrine teaches and is leading many within the Body of Christ to fall for?

Usually the red letter words mean more to those who need help understanding the rest of the scriptures :D

Just saying,

The Lord Jesus said during His earthly ministry that He was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
Paul affirmed this:

Rom 15:8 Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made unto the fathers:

The Lord taught believers in Israel to pray, 'thy Kingdom come', because the Kingdom of Heaven is and always has been to natiional Israel according to prophecy and of course it will be on earth, with the twelve sitting on twelve thrones ruling over the twelve tribes of Israel and Messiah Jesus on David's throne.

After describing the ministry of the Lord Jesus to the circumcision, Paul then says this:

Rom 15:15 Nevertheless, brethren, I have written the more boldly unto you in some sort, as putting you in mind, because of the grace that is given to me of God,
Rom 15:16 That I should be the minister of Jesus Christ to the Gentiles, ministering the gospel of God, that the offering up of the Gentiles[natiions] might be acceptable, being sanctified by the Holy Ghost.
Rom 15:17 I have therefore whereof I may glory through Jesus Christ in those things which pertain to God.
Rom 15:18 For I will not dare to speak of any of those things which Christ hath not wrought by me, to make the Gentiles obedient, by word and deed,


The red letters are Christ's ministry to the circumcision/Israel and is according to prophecy.


Paul's ministry, in lieu of Israel's rejection of the Kingdom, is to the natiions and is according to mystery[things hitherto unrevealed].

One of those mysteries is the change of our[those in the Body of Christ] physical form in the blink of an eye, and being gathered up by the Lord Himself to meet Him in the atmosphere.

The elect of Israel are gathered by angels at the Lord's second coming to earth.

Angel4Truth
October 13th, 2015, 07:42 PM
So you reckon these folks are still walkin' around here 2,000 years later?


Matthew 16:28 KJV


28 Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.


Nope, i think you don't know how to rightly divide, Jesus came into His kingdom at the Resurrection.

Does your bible not contain that part?

1Mind1Spirit
October 13th, 2015, 07:45 PM
Might as well conclude the same about Martin Luther for letting the Rom. 5: 1- 2 cat - OSAS - out of the bag; just because so many abuse it.

If the shoe fits.:chuckle:

Danoh
October 13th, 2015, 07:45 PM
The Lord Jesus said during His earthly ministry that He was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
Paul affirmed this:

Rom 15:8 Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made unto the fathers:

The Lord taught believers in Israel to pray, 'thy Kingdom come', because the Kingdom of Heaven is and always has been to natiional Israel according to prophecy and of course it will be on earth, with the twelve sitting on twelve thrones ruling over the twelve tribes of Israel and Messiah Jesus on David's throne.

After describing the ministry of the Lord Jesus to the circumcision, Paul then says this:

Rom 15:15 Nevertheless, brethren, I have written the more boldly unto you in some sort, as putting you in mind, because of the grace that is given to me of God,
Rom 15:16 That I should be the minister of Jesus Christ to the Gentiles, ministering the gospel of God, that the offering up of the Gentiles[natiions] might be acceptable, being sanctified by the Holy Ghost.
Rom 15:17 I have therefore whereof I may glory through Jesus Christ in those things which pertain to God.
Rom 15:18 For I will not dare to speak of any of those things which Christ hath not wrought by me, to make the Gentiles obedient, by word and deed,


The red letters are Christ's ministry to the circumcision/Israel and is according to prophecy.


Paul's ministry, in lieu of Israel's rejection of the Kingdom, is to the natiions and is according to mystery[things hitherto unrevealed].

One of those mysteries is the change of our[those in the Body of Christ] physical form in the blink of an eye, and being gathered up by the Lord Himself to meet Him in the atmosphere.

The elect of Israel are gathered by angels at the Lord's second coming to earth.


This message approved by 2 Tim. 2:15 :)

Angel4Truth
October 13th, 2015, 07:46 PM
Oh and if you want to get real technical about it:

Luke 24:50-53

50 When he had led them out to the vicinity of Bethany, he lifted up his hands and blessed them. 51 While he was blessing them, he left them and was taken up into heaven. 52 Then they worshiped him and returned to Jerusalem with great joy. 53 And they stayed continually at the temple, praising God.

Im pretty sure thats saying they saw it while they were still alive, you think?

tetelestai
October 13th, 2015, 07:48 PM
I've said many times before, "I can understand why believers argue about the timing of the rapture, but I can't, for the life of me, understand why they deny the fact of the rapture".

Not one Christian ever taught about a "rapture" before John Nelson Darby.

steko
October 13th, 2015, 07:50 PM
So you reckon these folks are still walkin' around here 2,000 years later?


Matthew 16:28 KJV


28 Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.


Peter confirms that they saw the Kingdom coming when they saw His glory when they were with Him in the holy mount at the transfiguration.

2Pe 1:16 For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty.
2Pe 1:17 For he received from God the Father honour and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.
2Pe 1:18 And this voice which came from heaven we heard, when we were with him in the holy mount.


Mat 17:2 And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light.
Mat 17:3 And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him.

tetelestai
October 13th, 2015, 07:51 PM
Just saying, you miss that the rapture and second coming are 2 different events.

"The Coming of the Lord" is one event.

Yet, Dispensationalists such as yourself claim the Apostle Paul used "The Coming of the Lord" to describe two different events (rapture & second coming)

tetelestai
October 13th, 2015, 07:53 PM
Peter confirms that they saw the Kingdom coming when they saw His glory when they were with Him in the holy mount at the transfiguration.

Read the previous verse steko

(Matt 16:27) For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

Was every man rewarded according to his works at the Transfiguration?

If not, then Matt 16:28 does not describe the Transfiguration.

steko
October 13th, 2015, 07:54 PM
Not one Christian ever taught about a "rapture" before John Nelson Darby.

The Apostle Paul did.

glorydaz
October 13th, 2015, 07:57 PM
The Apostle Paul did.

:thumb:

tetelestai
October 13th, 2015, 08:00 PM
The Apostle Paul did.

Nope

John Nelson Darby invented the "rapture"

Darby had to come up with a way for the Christians to be removed from the earth so God could pick back up with the Jews like it was 30AD all over again.

Margaret McDonald told Darby about her dream that Jesus came back twice. Darby took Margret McDonald's dream, and founded his Dipsensationalism around her dream.

Dispensationalism was invented during "the age of the cults".

steko
October 13th, 2015, 08:02 PM
"The Coming of the Lord" is one event.

Yet, Dispensationalists such as yourself claim the Apostle Paul used "The Coming of the Lord" to describe two different events (rapture & second coming)

The word 'parousia' is a Greek word which is translated 'coming' in English.
The word 'parousia' was a Greek word long before the NT was written.
Just because the word 'coming/parousia' is used of Christ gathering the BOC to Himself and also used of His second coming to earth, does not mean that these are the same 'parousia' event.

If I said, "I'm coming to TOL in the morning and I'll be coming to TOL tomorrow night, obviously doesn't mean that I'm coming simultaneously at both times.
Preterists have taken the common Greek word 'parousia' and turned it into a 'title'..... nearly an idol.

steko
October 13th, 2015, 08:06 PM
Read the previous verse steko

(Matt 16:27) For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

Was every man rewarded according to his works at the Transfiguration?

If not, then Matt 16:28 does not describe the Transfiguration.

The transfiguration was a pre-vision of the Kingdom coming and was provided specifically for the eyewitnesses Peter, James and John.

I'll accept Peter's words concerning his witnessing the Lord's power and coming, over yours.

steko
October 13th, 2015, 08:07 PM
Nope

John Nelson Darby invented the "rapture"

Darby had to come up with a way for the Christians to be removed from the earth so God could pick back up with the Jews like it was 30AD all over again.

Margaret McDonald told Darby about her dream that Jesus came back twice. Darby took Margret McDonald's dream, and founded his Dipsensationalism around her dream.

Dispensationalism was invented during "the age of the cults".

I believe Paul.

Do you ever ask yourself, "Why do I not want people to believe what the Bible plainly says?"

tetelestai
October 13th, 2015, 08:07 PM
The word 'parousia' is a Greek word which is translated 'coming' in English.
The word 'parousia' was a Greek word long before the NT was written.
Just because the word 'coming/parousia' is used of Christ gathering the BOC to Himself and also used of His second coming to earth, does not mean that these are the same 'parousia' event.

If I said, "I'm coming to TOL in the morning and I'll be coming to TOL tomorrow night, obviously doesn't mean that I'm coming simultaneously at both times.
Preterists have taken the common Greek word 'parousia' and turned it into a 'title'..... nearly an idol.

steko,

According to MADists, and most Dispies, they claim the Apostle Paul is referring to two completely different events (Rapture & Second Coming) in the following three verses:

(1 Thess 3:13 KJV) To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints.

(1 Thess 4:15 KJV) For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

(2 Thess 2:1 KJV) Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

It's insane to claim the Apostle Paul is referring to two drastically different events in the above verses.

1Mind1Spirit
October 13th, 2015, 08:09 PM
Nope, i think you don't know how to rightly divide, Jesus came into His kingdom at the Resurrection.



How so?

tetelestai
October 13th, 2015, 08:11 PM
The transfiguration was a pre-vision of the Kingdom coming and was provided specifically for the eyewitnesses Peter, James and John.

I'll accept Peter's words concerning his witnessing the Lord's power and coming, over yours.

Was every man rewarded according to his works at the Transfiguration?

tetelestai
October 13th, 2015, 08:18 PM
I'll accept Peter's words concerning his witnessing the Lord's power and coming, over yours.

Jesus told His Disciples that some of them would not taste death till they see Him coming in His kingdom.

You want us to believe that an event that happened 6 days later warranted Jesus telling His Disciples that some of them would not taste death.

Up to that point, not one of Jesus' Disciples had tasted death for any reason, but somehow you have Jesus telling His Disciples that none of them would die before an event that would happen in 6 days.

Do you really think Jesus didn't know that all of them would still be alive 6 days later?

steko
October 13th, 2015, 08:20 PM
Was every man rewarded according to his works at the Transfiguration?

It was a pre-vision of His coming for the benefit of Peter, James and John, who had just been informed, though they didn't understand it, that the Lord was going to die:

Mat 16:21 From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day.

Mat 16:27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.



The pre-vision of the second coming was an assurance to them, is spite of His death, which they would understand after the resurrection as Peter plainly cites.

Angel4Truth
October 13th, 2015, 08:20 PM
How so?

How do you not believe He came into heaven when He gave up His spirit to the Father?

Luke 23:46
Jesus called out with a loud voice, "Father, into your hands I commit my spirit." When he had said this, He breathed his last.

Do you not believe that Jesus is King? How do you not believe that Jesus is in the kingdom of heaven?

steko
October 13th, 2015, 08:30 PM
Jesus told His Disciples that some of them would not taste death till they see Him coming in His kingdom.

You want us to believe that an event that happened 6 days later warranted Jesus telling His Disciples that some of them would not taste death.

Up to that point, not one of Jesus' Disciples had tasted death for any reason, but somehow you have Jesus telling His Disciples that none of them would die before an event that would happen in 6 days.

Do you really think Jesus didn't know that all of them would still be alive 6 days later?

I believe Peter.
He said that he and the others witnessed Christ's power and coming, when they were with Him in the holy mount.
That cinches it for me.
He says it plainly.

You'll not dissuade me from this one. It's plainly stated.

"Let it go, or I'll give you a war you won't believe."- Rambo

No....actually I'm not discussing this one with you anymore.
It's a Herculean exercise in futility.

I stand firmly on 2Pe 1:16.

tetelestai
October 13th, 2015, 08:33 PM
It was a pre-vision of His coming

Jesus didn't say that some of them wouldn't taste death before His "pre-vision".

Jesus made it clear that some of them would not taste death before His ACTAUL coming.

BTW, what the heck is a "pre-vision"?

Did you just make that up, is that needed to defend your Dispensationalism?

Is that kind of like "partial fulfillment"?

Livelystone
October 13th, 2015, 08:40 PM
Just saying, you miss that the rapture and second coming are 2 different events. He doesn't come to earth at the rapture. We are caught to up to meet Him.

1 Thessalonians 4:17 Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord.

First off it is STILL His kingdom that comes to earth and not the earth (our physical bodies) ever going to a heaven up in the skies.......... or have you not yet read how there is NOTHING that is EVER going to ascend unto heaven that has not first come down from heaven.............. Just saying !!! (Amen and amen)

John 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven

Romans 10:6 But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above:)

Please remember A4T, the Law Jesus taught must be fulfilled teaches that two witnesses to the truth as I have posted above testify to a truth that cannot be denied (without committing a sin)

However, you did mention some interesting facts about others falling for an imagined rapture theory way back in the first couple of centuries.

This information is not at all surprising considering both the OT and Paul (who received revelations from OT scriptures) spoke of this happening soon after the last apostle was "taken out of the way".

Daniel 9: 25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.

26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.[/B

62 years after the ascension of Christ onto heaven His body that was the true Temple of the Body of Christ that worked just fine after He ascended unto heaven, was finally torn down and no (Lively) stones stood any longer one upon another as prophesied of by Jesus in His earthly ministry often mistaken by the blinded for the AD 70 destruction of the "temple that did not matter" (saying it kindly) :chuckle:

Because Paul received prophecies and understanding from the OT scriptures, He too wrote of this happening as the falling away (from the truth that would happen long before the gathering together of those on one accord with the truth) that would coincide with the death of the last apostle who were the "guardians of the truth".

2nd Thes.2:6 And [B]now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.

7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:


I have highlighted the bold for your benefit that together with the knowledge behind the phrase "he who letteth let) translated refers to the guardians of the truth will guard the truth until "he be taken out of the way"that happened 62 years after the ascension of Christ with the death of the apostle John, the last of the living guardians of the truth were taken away that in turn paved the way for the "rising of the tail" who are the prophets that teach lies who have been in charge of the church ever since then including the dates you have mentioned when as you say the rapture was taught many years before it was in Scotland.

Blessings to you and to yours,

Doug

tetelestai
October 13th, 2015, 08:42 PM
I believe Peter.
He said that he and the others witnessed Christ's power and coming, when they were with Him in the holy mount.
That cinches it for me.
He says it plainly.

You'll not dissuade me from this one. It's plainly stated.

"Let it go, or I'll give you a war you won't believe."- Rambo

No....actually I'm not discussing this one with you anymore.
It's a Herculean exercise in futility.

I stand firmly on 2Pe 1:16.

If it happened 6 days later (your claim), then Jesus lied when He said "some of you" would not taste death.

Also, were there any angels present?

Think steko, THINK!!!

Livelystone
October 13th, 2015, 08:45 PM
This side of the Lord's personally hand picked Apostle to the Gentiles; those red letters are the mark of a big fat "F" on your kind of thinking, Livelystone; for your failure to rightly divide the word of truth.

LOL. as if you have the remotest idea on how to rightly divide the truth...... amen? I think so

BTW you still have challenge up to prove you are not lying as posted in my post to you in post #74

Until you can do so you need to keep quiet as children who feel they need to be seen but are not to be heard from :chuckle:

Fair enough?

Angel4Truth
October 13th, 2015, 08:45 PM
First off it is STILL His kingdom that comes to earth and not the earth (our physical bodies) ever going to a heaven up in the skies.......... or have you not yet read how there is NOTHING that is EVER going to ascend unto heaven that has not first come down from heaven.............. Just saying !!! (Amen and amen)

John 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven

You are switching now- Jesus is in the kingdom of heaven right now, do you doubt this?

Do you doubt that there were witnesses to Him ascending there?

Did you forget were talking about Jesus, not us?

The physical kingdom of heaven is not on earth nor has that happened. Show me Jesus ruling from jerusalem right now if you believe all that has happened already. Thanks.

1Mind1Spirit
October 13th, 2015, 08:46 PM
=Angel4Truth;4485885]How do you not believe He came into heaven when He gave up His spirit to the Father?

Luke 23:46
Jesus called out with a loud voice, "Father, into your hands I commit my spirit." When he had said this, He breathed his last.




John 20:17 KJV


17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.





Do you not believe that Jesus is King?

Why wouldn't I?



How do you not believe that Jesus is in the kingdom of heaven?

I do believe it.

I just disagree on where the kingdom is and how one sees it.

Angel4Truth
October 13th, 2015, 08:51 PM
John 20:17 KJV


17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.






Why wouldn't I?




I do believe it.



Yes and i quoted the ascension, did you miss it, it was already posted, and here is again - do you believe there were no witnesses, it says there were?



Oh and if you want to get real technical about it:

Luke 24:50-53
50 When he had led them out to the vicinity of Bethany, he lifted up his hands and blessed them. 51 While he was blessing them, he left them and was taken up into heaven. 52 Then they worshiped him and returned to Jerusalem with great joy. 53 And they stayed continually at the temple, praising God.

Im pretty sure thats saying they saw it while they were still alive, you think?


I just disagree on where the kingdom is and how one sees it.

John 18:36 Jesus answered, "My kingdom is not of this world. If My kingdom were of this world, then My servants would be fighting so that I would not be handed over to the Jews; but as it is, My kingdom is not of this realm

Where exactly do you think the kingdom of heaven is?

Livelystone
October 13th, 2015, 08:52 PM
You are switching now- Jesus is in the kingdom of heaven right now, do you doubt this?

Do you doubt that there were witnesses to Him ascending there?

Did you forget were talking about Jesus, not us?

The physical kingdom of heaven is not on earth nor has that happened.

Are you lost?

Who do you think ascended unto heaven in the verses I quoted if not Jesus????????

BTW there is no physical kingdom of heaven !!!

The kingdom of heaven that is in our midst is the kingdom of spirits and souls that either belong to Jesus or belong to satan as all the spirits and souls of unregenerate persons on earth do ever since the fall of Adam........... and this you need to understand before you try to go any further............ or you will further confuse yourself

Angel4Truth
October 13th, 2015, 08:56 PM
Are you lost?

Who do you think ascended unto heaven in the verses I quoted if not Jesus????????

BTW there is no physical kingdom of heaven !!!

Which is what I* HAVE BEEN SAYING, are you lost? Mind1 is who is acting like Jesus isnt in heaven.


The kingdom of heaven that is in our midst is the kingdom of spirits and souls that either belong to Jesus or belong to satan as all the spirits and souls of unregenerate persons on earth do ever since the fall of Adam........... and this you need to understand before you try to go any further............ or you will further confuse yourself

The kingdom of heaven is in heaven. you seem to be confusing my posts to mind1 and my posts to you as being one and the same when they are 2 different discussions.

1Mind1Spirit
October 13th, 2015, 09:03 PM
Which is what I* HAVE BEEN SAYING, are you lost? Mind1 is who is acting like Jesus isnt in heaven.



The kingdom of heaven is in heaven. you seem to be confusing my posts to mind1 and my posts to you as being one and the same when they are 2 different discussions.

You haven't read any of this thread.

Go back to sleep.

Angel4Truth
October 13th, 2015, 09:06 PM
You haven't read any of this thread.

Go back to sleep.

You havent read it, you claim darby invented the rapture, and that those who witnessed the ascension, didnt actually see Jesus come into His kingdom.

you are wrong on both.

Angel4Truth
October 13th, 2015, 09:07 PM
Are you lost?


BTW there is no physical kingdom of heaven !!!


Where did i ever say there was, quote it.

1Mind1Spirit
October 13th, 2015, 09:18 PM
Where did i ever say there was, quote it.

You said they saw it.

I know you aint talkin' spiritual.

Just the same as I know you skipped the most important part of this thread.

If they saw it with physical eyes like you say, then it was physical.

Like I said, go back to sleep.

1Mind1Spirit
October 13th, 2015, 09:22 PM
Where exactly do you think the kingdom of heaven is?

Look to yer left Sis.

My avatar aint that hard to see.

Angel4Truth
October 13th, 2015, 09:22 PM
You said they saw it.

No, i never said they saw the kingdom of heaven (the witnesses to Jesus ascension)

which is why you arent quoting me. Because i never said the kingdom was physical in any way.


I know you aint talkin' spiritual.

Just the same as I know you skipped the most important part of this thread.

If they saw it with physical eyes like you say, then it was physical.

Like I said, go back to sleep.

Again quote me ever saying it was physical, or me saying that a anyone other than Christ saw the kingdom of heaven.You wont quote me because you are lying now about what i said.

Angel4Truth
October 13th, 2015, 09:24 PM
Are you lost?


BTW there is no physical kingdom of heaven !!!




Where did i ever say there was, quote it.

Waiting....

1Mind1Spirit
October 13th, 2015, 09:41 PM
No, i never said they saw the kingdom of heaven (the witnesses to Jesus ascension)

which is why you arent quoting me. Because i never said the kingdom was physical in any way.



Again quote me ever saying it was physical, or me saying that a anyone other than Christ saw the kingdom of heaven.You wont quote me because you are lying now about what i said.

Jesus was in the kingdom from the womb.

Jesus is talking about himself here.


Matthew 11:11 KJV


11 Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist: notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.


He went from least to greatest.

They saw him leaving.

So how is it you affirm they saw him coming?

1Mind1Spirit
October 13th, 2015, 09:48 PM
Jesus didn't say that some of them wouldn't taste death before His "pre-vision".

Jesus made it clear that some of them would not taste death before His ACTAUL coming.

BTW, what the heck is a "pre-vision"?

Did you just make that up, is that needed to defend your Dispensationalism?

Is that kind of like "partial fulfillment"?

:chuckle: This is funny.

Angel4Truth
October 13th, 2015, 09:51 PM
Still waiting for one of you false teachers to quote me saying the kingdom of heaven is physical like you both claimed.

1Mind1Spirit
October 13th, 2015, 09:58 PM
Still waiting for one of you false teachers to quote me saying the kingdom of heaven is physical like you both claimed.

Still waiting for you to tell me how they saw him coming in it.

patrick jane
October 13th, 2015, 10:01 PM
:chuckle: This is funny.

I've seen you agreeing with anti-trinity folks and now peterists ?

What next, Catholics ?

Angel4Truth
October 13th, 2015, 10:07 PM
Still waiting for you to tell me how they saw him coming in it.

I already posted the verse where it showed there were witnesses to the ascension. Now post me stating that the kingdom of heaven is physical, since i never said any such lie.

I see you have revised your earlier claim of what you claimed i said, still lying.


Are you lost?


BTW there is no physical kingdom of heaven !!!



Where did i ever say there was, quote it.


You said they saw it.

I know you aint talkin' spiritual.

Just the same as I know you skipped the most important part of this thread.

If they saw it with physical eyes like you say, then it was physical.

Like I said, go back to sleep.



Waiting for you to quote me saying that the kingdom of heaven is physical.

First you claimed i said the witnesses saw the kingdom of heaven as physical (lie) then you now say i said they saw it when Christ entered it (another lie) and you keep claiming ive said it was physical (third lie) and i keep asking you to quote me, yet you wont actually quote me, since i never made such a claim, and since youve shown yourself to continue to be a liar, you arent worth any more of my time.

1Mind1Spirit
October 13th, 2015, 10:09 PM
I've seen you agreeing with anti-trinity folks and now peterists ?

What next, Catholics ?

What?

You didn't think Tet's questions were funny?

1Mind1Spirit
October 13th, 2015, 10:11 PM
I already posted the verse where it showed there were witnesses to the ascension. Now post me stating that the kingdom of heaven is physical, since i never said any such lie.

I see you have revised your earlier claim of what you claimed i said, still lying.









Waiting for you to quote me saying that the kingdom of heaven is physical.

First you claimed i said the witnesses saw the kingdom of heaven as physical (lie) then you now say i said they saw it when Christ entered it (another lie) and you keep claiming ive said it was physical (third lie) and i keep asking you to quote me, yet you wont actually quote me, since i never made such a claim, and since youve shown yourself to continue to be a liar, you arent worth any more of my time.



Typical of you.

Twist and squirm away again.

OCTOBER23
October 13th, 2015, 10:26 PM
The Conclusion of the Matter.

YES, There is a Rapture for the Church because JESUS said so for the Phiadelphian Church

in John 14, Rev 3 and Rev 12

John 14:2 In my Father’s house are many mansions: if it were not so,

I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

John 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again,

and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

Revelation 12:6 And the woman fled into the wilderness,

where she hath a place prepared of God,

that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.


================================================

steko
October 13th, 2015, 10:31 PM
:chuckle: This is funny.

Only because you and Tet are blind to the truth.

OCTOBER23
October 13th, 2015, 10:35 PM
STEKO AND MIND1

JESUS SAID TO LOVE ONE ANOTHER

It is time to do the same......................:rapture:......:rapture: .....:rapture:

RBBI
October 13th, 2015, 11:36 PM
The Conclusion of the Matter.

YES, There is a Rapture for the Church because JESUS said so for the Phiadelphian Church

in John 14, Rev 3 and Rev 12

John 14:2 In my Father’s house are many mansions: if it were not so,

I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

John 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again,

and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

Revelation 12:6 And the woman fled into the wilderness,

where she hath a place prepared of God,

that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.


================================================

Not to single you out, there's just so much tangled mess on this thread it's hard to know where to begin, so I guess I'll start with the last poster.

First of all, what He is referring to in John, is the symbolism of the customs of an ancient Jewish wedding. So too, is the section about the wise and foolish virgins. Granted, without knowing the context that has been neatly nearly stripped away by the Hellenists, the text is nearly unrecognizable as such.

The bridegroom first met with the bride's father, and they agreed upon a bride price. Once agreed upon, he went home to add on a room for him and his bride, TO HIS FATHER'S HOUSE. The length of time it took to build it and furnish it varied, but this was the betrothal time and legally binding.

He also built a wedding sort of canopy, held aloft by his friends, that he sat on. Once done with all his labors, he and his friends and family, came like A THIEF IN THE NIGHT without warning, with torches, singing and making noise (WITH A LOUD SHOUT), to go get the bride, who had been making herself ready all this time, also. She and her friends, also carried oil torches and ran out to meet the groom, whereupon she was LIFTED UP IN THE AIR TO JOIN HIM ON THE PLATFORM, forever to be with her groom, and they all went back to his father's house to be married, consummate the wedding and have a feast that lasted 7 days.

As you can see, hopefully, the story is about UNION WITH THE BELOVED FOREVER IN COVENANT, not about location. It would be a poor choice of a shallow bride if she was more concerned with where she was going to live with her beloved than the fact she was going to be one with her beloved. Now since it's obviously a SPIRITUAL union, having been made perfect by the Spirit are ye now needing to lean on the flesh again???

Furthermore, we are given tastes of this union whenever the times of refreshing come, that are when the Spirit feeds us something choice that has the effect of translating us out of the kingdom of darkness (the carnal mind) and into the kingdom of light (the mind of Christ). Because the wisdom of the flesh is sensual and BELOW the wisdom that is spiritual and ABOVE, we are CAUGHT UP every time this happens to us.

We are saved, we are being saved, and we will be saved, spirit, soul, and body. We are NOT waiting to fly away, we are awaiting the redemption of our bodies, that the corruptible put on incorruption, as Paul said he didn't want to be UNCLOTHED (put off his flesh body from his spirit body), but CLOTHED UPON. If Paul wanted to be clothed upon, why oh why, would anyone think that being unclothed would be a good thing? The scripture says to take care that your FLIGHT be not in winter (death of the body).

I rebuke openly anyone I hear that says, "I just want to go home and be with Jesus." I call it what it is: a thief trying to rob Him of a body to dwell in. Peace

intojoy
October 14th, 2015, 12:20 AM
The Rapture was invented by Roman Catholics trying to counter the
identification of the Vatican as the Great harlot.

Then Darby, and Scofield, and Hal Lindsay popularized the Rapture,
and now many Protestants think that the Rapture is some kind of Protestant doctrine.

i3hXKNTMuEY

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i3hXKNTMuEY

Well here's why I may just change to post trib:

“And seven women shall take hold of one man in that day, saying, We will eat our own bread, and wear our own apparel: only let us be called by thy name; take thou away our reproach.”
**Isaiah‬ *4:1‬ *ASV‬‬
http://bible.com/12/isa.4.1.asv

Seven wives! And no need to work. Hell yeah

tetelestai
October 14th, 2015, 04:03 AM
Only because you and Tet are blind to the truth.

Please explain what a "pre-vision" is?

tetelestai
October 14th, 2015, 04:17 AM
you claim darby invented the rapture,

Everyone knows John Nelson Darby invented the rapture. Only Dispies such as yourself, who are in denial, claim he didn't.

Go to wikipedia, type "rapture", and you will find the following:

"John Nelson Darby first proposed and popularized the pre-tribulation rapture in 1827."

oatmeal
October 14th, 2015, 04:29 AM
The Rapture was invented by Roman Catholics trying to counter the
identification of the Vatican as the Great harlot.

Then Darby, and Scofield, and Hal Lindsay popularized the Rapture,
and now many Protestants think that the Rapture is some kind of Protestant doctrine.

i3hXKNTMuEY

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i3hXKNTMuEY

There is no term rapture in scripture.

However, there is a reference to our gathering together unto him in II Thes 2:1

Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him

People have confused the events of the book of Revelation with the event described in I Thessalonians 4:13-17, when Christians are gathered together unto him, so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Livelystone
October 14th, 2015, 05:26 AM
Which is what I* HAVE BEEN SAYING, are you lost? Mind1 is who is acting like Jesus isnt in heaven.



The kingdom of heaven is in heaven. you seem to be confusing my posts to mind1 and my posts to you as being one and the same when they are 2 different discussions.


Jesus is the Kingdom of Heaven

Jesus said He was in heaven while He was standing on earth

Jn. 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

So did the apostles with the words "our conversation is in heaven" that translated identifies them as citizens from heaven ministering to persons on earth even though physically none of them had ever left earth

Philippians 3:20 For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ:

The garden of Eden was heaven on earth and sin is why Adam got the boot from it.

Livelystone
October 14th, 2015, 07:10 AM
Y

The physical kingdom of heaven is not on earth nor has that happened. Show me Jesus ruling from jerusalem right now if you believe all that has happened already. Thanks.

Jesus is ruling from Jerusalem that is above and is the mother of us all

Galatians 4:26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.



Where did i ever say there was, quote it.

Maybe we need a time out for some clarification coming from you ?

If you do not think the rapture is the church physically being taken off of the earth and being taken to a place He has prepared for you....... what exactly do you think is transpiring in the event you call a rapture?

Please chose your words carefully

Thanks in advance

RBBI
October 14th, 2015, 12:50 PM
Appears it's going to be a long break.....

Livelystone
October 14th, 2015, 02:51 PM
Appears it's going to be a long break.....

Yep, almost as if a message of "cease and desist" has gone out to those causing the false rapture teaching to make such a poor showing :chuckle:

steko
October 14th, 2015, 06:16 PM
Yep, almost as if a message of "cease and desist" has gone out to those causing the false rapture teaching to make such a poor showing :chuckle:

Do you believe the Scriptures that say that the Holy Spirit caught away Philip and he was then found at Azotus?

Right Divider
October 14th, 2015, 06:45 PM
Do you believe the Scriptures that say that the Holy Spirit caught away Philip and he was then found at Azotus?
Don't forget the other examples in scripture.
Gen 5:24 KJV And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him.

2Ki 2:11 KJV And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.
Everyone else in Gen 5 DIED!

The "rapture" is NOT an invented story. It's a description of what scripture says. Paul calls it the catching away and it's NOT the first time.

patrick jane
October 14th, 2015, 06:49 PM
Acts 8:39-40 KJV -

The non-rapture folks: "Nah, Caught up in the air with the Lord doesn't really mean what it says"


Proverbs 26:7 KJV -

OCTOBER23
October 14th, 2015, 06:50 PM
RBBI,

Thanks for the Analysis.

You said "redemption of our bodies"

Redemption is the buying back of something that you sold.

Obviously, " Adam sold his Soul to the Devil " as the Expression goes

and so Jesus bought it back with his own Life blood.

There is much on the Internet about this subject which I already know.

From a practical sense let us look at the Kingdom heirarchy before Mankind

and after the Satanic Rebellion. God had a BIG PROBLEM. God needed an

Angelic type being that would NOT REBEL and Would Love Him as opposed

to Satan's Hatred of HIM. And a Being that HE could Get Rid Of if the Experiment

did NOT WORK OUT. The being had to Learn Godly Character through studying

God's Instructions and Experience the Pain that comes through Rebellious

actions. What could God offer in Return for Right Behaviour = An Eternal Body.

The Angels and JESUS have an Eternal Body . JESUS BODY CONTAINS HIS

LIFE ENERGY shown by HIS EYES OF FIRE. What is this Body made out of ?????

According to one Crop Circle , it is made of Silicon which can Resist 1410 Degrees Celsius

or 2570 farenheit degrees before melting. Thus you have the Transfer of the Mind/Spirit

of Mankind into a body which is for all intents and purposes Eternal.

http://www.cropcircleresearch.com/articles/arecibo.html

steko
October 14th, 2015, 06:56 PM
Don't forget the other examples in scripture.
Gen 5:24 KJV And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him.

2Ki 2:11 KJV And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.
Everyone else in Gen 5 DIED!

The "rapture" is NOT an invented story. It's a description of what scripture says. Paul calls it the catching away and it's NOT the first time.

:thumb: Yep!


Acts 8:39-40 KJV -

The non-rapture folks: "Nah, Caught up in the air with the Lord doesn't really mean what it says"


Proverbs 26:7 KJV -

:thumb: Yep!

tetelestai
October 14th, 2015, 07:09 PM
The non-rapture folks: "Nah, Caught up in the air with the Lord doesn't really mean what it says"

It means exactly what it says.

What it doesn't mean is that all the Christians are secretly removed from the planet, and then God goes back to dealing with the Jews like it's 30AD again, followed by Jesus coming back with the Christians 7 years later.

That nonsense was invented by John Nelson Darby, and is called the rapture. No one taught this nonsense before Darby.

The rapture is nothing but a new age fad invented by Darby during "the age of the cults"

steko
October 14th, 2015, 07:17 PM
Not to single you out, there's just so much tangled mess on this thread it's hard to know where to begin,

We agree on that much.



We are saved, we are being saved, and we will be saved, spirit, soul, and body. We are NOT waiting to fly away, we are awaiting the redemption of our bodies, that the corruptible put on incorruption, as Paul said he didn't want to be UNCLOTHED (put off his flesh body from his spirit body), but CLOTHED UPON. If Paul wanted to be clothed upon, why oh why, would anyone think that being unclothed would be a good thing? The scripture says to take care that your FLIGHT be not in winter (death of the body).


Well, at least you don't impose a Platonic non-physicallity like a lot of these folks do. That's nice to see!

Paul implies that the redemption of our bodies occurs when the Lord descends with a shout and we are caught up to meet Him in the air.
I don't understand why one who believes in the literal bodily redemption would deny what Paul says about us being 'caught up'.
Paul even says to comfort one another with those words.


I rebuke openly anyone I hear that says, "I just want to go home and be with Jesus." I call it what it is: a thief trying to rob Him of a body to dwell in. Peace


This makes no sense to me.

patrick jane
October 14th, 2015, 07:23 PM
It means exactly what it says.

What it doesn't mean is that all the Christians are secretly removed from the planet, and then God goes back to dealing with the Jews like it's 30AD again, followed by Jesus coming back with the Christians 7 years later.

That nonsense was invented by John Nelson Darby, and is called the rapture. No one taught this nonsense before Darby.

The rapture is nothing but a new age fad invented by Darby during "the age of the cults"

See, my MAD dispensation view interprets Revelation And the whole Bible for exactly what it says. I have no view of:


"all the Christians are secretly removed from the planet, and then God goes back to dealing with the Jews like it's 30AD again, followed by Jesus coming back with the Christians 7 years later."

And I don't believe animal sacrifice will be re-instated, as I have heard you say all MADs believe. Some of us here don't fit your "Darby" slot.

tetelestai
October 14th, 2015, 07:41 PM
I have no view of:

What happens to the people left on planet earth after your alleged rapture takes place?

Please support your answer with scripture.

RBBI
October 14th, 2015, 08:03 PM
Don't forget the other examples in scripture.
Gen 5:24 KJV And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him.

2Ki 2:11 KJV And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.
Everyone else in Gen 5 DIED!

The "rapture" is NOT an invented story. It's a description of what scripture says. Paul calls it the catching away and it's NOT the first time.

Enoch was a type of Christ, the 7th man from Adam. Christ IS that perfect day, of no part darkness, the rest that remaineth to the people of HaShem. This is why Christ IN YOU, is the hope of glory.

As for Elijah: note that the "prize" of the DOUBLE PORTION required Elisha to see/perceive the FLESH OF HIM GONE = to perceive the Seed Son minus the flesh. Each had a purpose to reveal, but neither of them have a thing to do with the "rapture". Peace

RBBI
October 14th, 2015, 08:05 PM
RBBI,

Thanks for the Analysis.

You said "redemption of our bodies"

Redemption is the buying back of something that you sold.

Obviously, " Adam sold his Soul to the Devil " as the Expression goes

and so Jesus bought it back with his own Life blood.

There is much on the Internet about this subject which I already know.

From a practical sense let us look at the Kingdom heirarchy before Mankind

and after the Satanic Rebellion. God had a BIG PROBLEM. God needed an

Angelic type being that would NOT REBEL and Would Love Him as opposed

to Satan's Hatred of HIM. And a Being that HE could Get Rid Of if the Experiment

did NOT WORK OUT. The being had to Learn Godly Character through studying

God's Instructions and Experience the Pain that comes through Rebellious

actions. What could God offer in Return for Right Behaviour = An Eternal Body.

The Angels and JESUS have an Eternal Body . JESUS BODY CONTAINS HIS

LIFE ENERGY shown by HIS EYES OF FIRE. What is this Body made out of ?????

According to one Crop Circle , it is made of Silicon which can Resist 1410 Degrees Celsius

or 2570 farenheit degrees before melting. Thus you have the Transfer of the Mind/Spirit

of Mankind into a body which is for all intents and purposes Eternal.

http://www.cropcircleresearch.com/articles/arecibo.html

I'm really speechless. How did we go from rapture to crop circles??? Peace

RBBI
October 14th, 2015, 08:07 PM
It means exactly what it says.

What it doesn't mean is that all the Christians are secretly removed from the planet, and then God goes back to dealing with the Jews like it's 30AD again, followed by Jesus coming back with the Christians 7 years later.

That nonsense was invented by John Nelson Darby, and is called the rapture. No one taught this nonsense before Darby.

The rapture is nothing but a new age fad invented by Darby during "the age of the cults"

Doesn't even make good rational sense does it? Peace

RBBI
October 14th, 2015, 08:33 PM
We agree on that much.
Well, at least you don't impose a Platonic non-physicallity like a lot of these folks do. That's nice to see!

Paul implies that the redemption of our bodies occurs when the Lord descends with a shout and we are caught up to meet Him in the air.
I don't understand why one who believes in the literal bodily redemption would deny what Paul says about us being 'caught up'.
Paul even says to comfort one another with those words.



This makes no sense to me.

What you are not seeing is that I am not disagreeing with being caught up, just the method by which it is done. One is physical, one is spiritual, that has physical "side effects".

Why doesn't it make sense to you? If Christ in us is our hope, and He is coming back to reside in a many membered body who are SPIRITUALLY where He "is", yet standing right here, then can you not see that dying and going to heaven to be with Jesus, is NOT His preferred method and is in fact denying Him a body to dwell in?

There were two thieves with Him on the cross. One said basically, WHEN you get to your kingdom remember me (future). The other said basically, IF thou be the Christ save thyself and us. BOTH of them were waiting on Him to be Lord and Christ another day, because they were looking at the flesh; with the flesh, it's ALWAYS another day.

I'm not waiting for Him to be both Lord and Christ, He ALREADY is and always has been as Peter proclaimed in Acts 2. Like Yeshua said of Abraham, I'VE SEEN HIS DAY and I don't have to literally die to apprehend it. Even now the daystar is dawning, the shadows are fleeting away, and the last enemy to be overcome is death, and it's not overcome by dying but by NOT DYING, ie. mortality swallowed up of immortality. Peace

Livelystone
October 14th, 2015, 08:52 PM
Well, at least you don't impose a Platonic non-physicallity like a lot of these folks do. That's nice to see!

Paul implies that the redemption of our bodies occurs when the Lord descends with a shout and we are caught up to meet Him in the air.
I don't understand why one who believes in the literal bodily redemption would deny what Paul says about us being 'caught up'.
Paul even says to comfort one another with those words.
.

The soul is a body (tabernacle) for the spirit and when Jesus returned to the glory He once had before He came to earth He returned to a Spirit with a Soul

The only redemption of the physical body comes at the final act of our cleansing when those who qualify are in Zion for the "wife adorned for her husband that is the mind of Christ seen coming down from heaven as new Jerusalem (cities and minds are strongholds in the Bible) in Re.21:2-3 KJV as the tabernacle of God because the soul is a tabernacle (body) coming down for the Holy Spirit (husband) already on earth

Without the mind of man but with the mind of Christ a human with no sin as a principality living within them will be the first time a man on earth without sin the same as Adam was before he sinned other than when Jesus walked on earth. This is the redemption of our body AKA the restitution of what was lost in the garden even the first dominion as it was before Adam turned dominion of the earth over to satan............ Praise the Lord

Livelystone
October 14th, 2015, 08:56 PM
What you are not seeing is that I am not disagreeing with being caught up, just the method by which it is done. One is physical, one is spiritual, that has physical "side effects".

Why doesn't it make sense to you? If Christ in us is our hope, and He is coming back to reside in a many membered body who are SPIRITUALLY where He "is", yet standing right here, then can you not see that dying and going to heaven to be with Jesus, is NOT His preferred method and is in fact denying Him a body to dwell in?

There were two thieves with Him on the cross. One said basically, WHEN you get to your kingdom remember me (future). The other said basically, IF thou be the Christ save thyself and us. BOTH of them were waiting on Him to be Lord and Christ another day, because they were looking at the flesh; with the flesh, it's ALWAYS another day.

I'm not waiting for Him to be both Lord and Christ, He ALREADY is and always has been as Peter proclaimed in Acts 2. Like Yeshua said of Abraham, I'VE SEEN HIS DAY and I don't have to literally die to apprehend it. Even now the daystar is dawning, the shadows are fleeting away, and the last enemy to be overcome is death, and it's not overcome by dying but by NOT DYING, ie. mortality swallowed up of immortality. Peace

Good post

Livelystone
October 14th, 2015, 09:01 PM
See, my MAD dispensation view interprets Revelation And the whole Bible for exactly what it says. I have no view of:



And I don't believe animal sacrifice will be re-instated, as I have heard you say all MADs believe. Some of us here don't fit your "Darby" slot.

Good for you :up:

The local county jail Chaplin is a pastor who believes in this and to make it worse he will become a priest and be doing the offering of sacrifices ......... how repugnant is that?

Unfortunately he won't let any christian teachers in who disagree with him......... LOL I am probably #1 on his banned for jail house ministry list in my county

patrick jane
October 14th, 2015, 09:03 PM
What you are not seeing is that I am not disagreeing with being caught up, just the method by which it is done. One is physical, one is spiritual, that has physical "side effects".

Peace

1 Corinthians 15:51 KJV - 1 Corinthians 15:52 KJV -


1 Corinthians 15:53-54 KJV -

Livelystone
October 14th, 2015, 09:16 PM
Do you believe the Scriptures that say that the Holy Spirit caught away Philip and he was then found at Azotus?


Yes I do, the same way the boat was immediately on the other side

When we physically die we too appear immediately on the other side

RBBI
October 14th, 2015, 09:43 PM
The soul is a body (tabernacle) for the spirit and when Jesus returned to the glory He once had before He came to earth He returned to a Spirit with a Soul

The only redemption of the physical body comes at the final act of our cleansing when those who qualify are in Zion for the "wife adorned for her husband that is the mind of Christ seen coming down from heaven as new Jerusalem (cities and minds are strongholds in the Bible) in Re.21:2-3 KJV as the tabernacle of God because the soul is a tabernacle (body) coming down for the Holy Spirit (husband) already on earth

Without the mind of man but with the mind of Christ a human with no sin as a principality living within them will be the first time a man on earth without sin the same as Adam was before he sinned other than when Jesus walked on earth. This is the redemption of our body AKA the restitution of what was lost in the garden even the first dominion as it was before Adam turned dominion of the earth over to satan............ Praise the Lord

AMEN and the garments are changing NOW.....Peace

steko
October 14th, 2015, 10:49 PM
What you are not seeing is that I am not disagreeing with being caught up, just the method by which it is done. One is physical, one is spiritual, that has physical "side effects".

Why doesn't it make sense to you? If Christ in us is our hope, and He is coming back to reside in a many membered body who are SPIRITUALLY where He "is", yet standing right here, then can you not see that dying and going to heaven to be with Jesus, is NOT His preferred method and is in fact denying Him a body to dwell in?

There were two thieves with Him on the cross. One said basically, WHEN you get to your kingdom remember me (future). The other said basically, IF thou be the Christ save thyself and us. BOTH of them were waiting on Him to be Lord and Christ another day, because they were looking at the flesh; with the flesh, it's ALWAYS another day.

I'm not waiting for Him to be both Lord and Christ, He ALREADY is and always has been as Peter proclaimed in Acts 2. Like Yeshua said of Abraham, I'VE SEEN HIS DAY and I don't have to literally die to apprehend it. Even now the daystar is dawning, the shadows are fleeting away, and the last enemy to be overcome is death, and it's not overcome by dying but by NOT DYING, ie. mortality swallowed up of immortality. Peace

So....you don't believe what Paul said.
That's what I thought.

steko
October 14th, 2015, 10:53 PM
AMEN and the garments are changing NOW.....Peace

So....a twinkling of an eye is out too, huh.

steko
October 14th, 2015, 10:56 PM
Yes I do, the same way the boat was immediately on the other side

When we physically die we too appear immediately on the other side

So...you believe Luke when he says Philip was 'caught up/harpazo', but you don't believe Paul when he says that we shall be 'caught up/harpazo'.

steko
October 14th, 2015, 11:14 PM
Please explain what a "pre-vision" is?

Hey look, Tet doesn't know what a prophetic vision is!

Grosnick Marowbe
October 14th, 2015, 11:18 PM
Hey look, Tet doesn't know what a prophetic vision is!

Tet still thinks Christ already returned in 70AD. So, you can't expect
much out of him.

1Mind1Spirit
October 14th, 2015, 11:54 PM
So....a twinkling of an eye is out too, huh.

daqq addressed this in post 54.

C'mon Steko, you might wanna try some coffee instead of those hot calcium drinks.



Nice post :)

Exodus 33:4-6
4. And when the people heard these evil tidings, they mourned: and no man did put his headgear upon himself.
5. For YHWH said unto Moshe, Say unto the sons of Yisrael, You are a stiffnecked people: I will come up into the midst of you in one wink of an eye and consume you! Now therefore put off your headgear from you; and I know what I will do unto you.
6. And the sons of Yisrael snatched off their headgear from mount Horeb.

Livelystone
October 15th, 2015, 08:00 AM
So...you believe Luke when he says Philip was 'caught up/harpazo', but you don't believe Paul when he says that we shall be 'caught up/harpazo'.

It is not a case of not believing what God can do but knowing what the plan of God for man has always been......... and it is never to take His church physically off of the earth.

Back in 86 I was with 3 others in a car going from Ocho Rios to Port to Antonio Jamaica at 2am on very treacherous roads (they are probably much better now). I had drifted off to sleep when suddenly my mother's voice of her forever closing words to me every time we talked of "Douglas I love you and pray for you every day" woke me up from me deep sleep only to notice it was to late to warn me because my friend had fallen asleep at the wheel and we were headed straight off of a cliff to certain death 500 feet below amongst rocks and breaking surf.

I grabbed the wheel which woke my friend up who took it over but there was no more time left as the car was already bouncing on the rocks next to the edge and road was making a hairpin curve around the side of a mountain that stuck out into the sea. The girls in the back seat were screaming (his wife my girlfriend) and because I did not want my girlfriend to die while experiencing so much fear I turned and looked at her in the eye so the last thing she would experience on earth would be knowing she was loved

Suddenly, and with no explainable reason we were sitting still back in the MIDDLE OF THE ROAD as if a unseen hand had plucked the car out of the air and set it down gently back on the road. My friend turned and said "Doug, that was great you just saved everyones life". My reply was, "no I did not do it my mother did" although I knew there was more to it. That was when he said, "I don't know how this has happened because we had already gone off the edge"

For sure had we somehow managed to avoid death on our own accord the car would have come to a stop after slowing down and sliding to a stop on the road side of the rocks that marked the edge of the cliff rather than suddenly sitting still in the middle of the road.

This is a modern day case of 4 people in a car defying all odds and explanations that was still 14 years before I returned to walking with the Lord.

If I learned anything from the above is, for sure I KNOW God can and will physically lift us up of the earth from where we are to where he wants us to be without any contribution to this happening coming from us. In addition to this the above is testimony to Christian parents who continue on with daily prayer for their children who have left the Lord and joined themselves to the world

RBBI
October 15th, 2015, 09:45 AM
It is not a case of not believing what God can do but knowing what the plan of God for man has always been......... and it is never to take His church physically off of the earth.

Back in 86 I was with 3 others in a car going from Ocho Rios to Port to Antonio Jamaica at 2am on very treacherous roads (they are probably much better now). I had drifted off to sleep when suddenly my mother's voice of her forever closing words to me every time we talked of "Douglas I love you and pray for you every day" woke me up from me deep sleep only to notice it was to late to warn me because my friend had fallen asleep at the wheel and we were headed straight off of a cliff to certain death 500 feet below amongst rocks and breaking surf.

I grabbed the wheel which woke my friend up who took it over but there was no more time left as the car was already bouncing on the rocks next to the edge and road was making a hairpin curve around the side of a mountain that stuck out into the sea. The girls in the back seat were screaming (his wife my girlfriend) and because I did not want my girlfriend to die while experiencing so much fear I turned and looked at her in the eye so the last thing she would experience on earth would be knowing she was loved

Suddenly, and with no explainable reason we were sitting still back in the MIDDLE OF THE ROAD as if a unseen hand had plucked the car out of the air and set it down gently back on the road. My friend turned and said "Doug, that was great you just saved everyones life". My reply was, "no I did not do it my mother did" although I knew there was more to it. That was when he said, "I don't know how this has happened because we had already gone off the edge"

For sure had we somehow managed to avoid death on our own accord the car would have come to a stop after slowing down and sliding to a stop on the road side of the rocks that marked the edge of the cliff rather than suddenly sitting still in the middle of the road.

This is a modern day case of 4 people in a car defying all odds and explanations that was still 14 years before I returned to walking with the Lord.

If I learned anything from the above is, for sure I KNOW God can and will physically lift us up of the earth from where we are to where he wants us to be without any contribution to this happening coming from us. In addition to this the above is testimony to Christian parents who continue on with daily prayer for their children who have left the Lord and joined themselves to the world

Amen, good testimony....I heard of another incident similar to this one, years ago. Peace

Right Divider
October 15th, 2015, 09:56 AM
Enoch was a type of Christ, the 7th man from Adam. Christ IS that perfect day, of no part darkness, the rest that remaineth to the people of HaShem. This is why Christ IN YOU, is the hope of glory.

As for Elijah: note that the "prize" of the DOUBLE PORTION required Elisha to see/perceive the FLESH OF HIM GONE = to perceive the Seed Son minus the flesh. Each had a purpose to reveal, but neither of them have a thing to do with the "rapture". Peace
I did NOT say that they had something to "do with the rapture".

My point is that God "catching up/away" is NOT something completely unknown in the scripture prior to Paul revealing this about the body of Christ.

Right Divider
October 15th, 2015, 10:01 AM
It is not a case of not believing what God can do but knowing what the plan of God for man has always been......... and it is never to take His church physically off of the earth.

Which church?

Interplanner
October 15th, 2015, 10:08 AM
All Paul was doing in those passages about being change in a moment was explaining what happens to people alive at the very last moment of history. It applies to very few relative to the total number of believers down through time. Obviously there needs to be some way for them to be changed into their eternal life. It is a death, of sorts.

Livelystone
October 15th, 2015, 10:48 AM
Which church?

The remnant AKA called out ones who responded to the call to come out of Babylon where all of Christianity went into after the last apostle died

These are the ones who will take Zion that is in the clouds where they are caught up to be with the Lord in the clouds.......... however Zion is on earth that was the highest point of worship in Jerusalem (the church) and is where the tabernacle of David was set up that God has promised to raise back up

God has always appeared unto man from clouds such as at the ark of the covenant in the clouds of smoke from incense burned on the golden alter representing the prayers of the saints, (Rev.8:4 KJV) to the clouds over the jews in the wilderness to the clouds on Mt Sinai

patrick jane
October 15th, 2015, 10:54 AM
Everyone knows John Nelson Darby invented the rapture. Only Dispies such as yourself, who are in denial, claim he didn't.

Go to wikipedia, type "rapture", and you will find the following:

"John Nelson Darby first proposed and popularized the pre-tribulation rapture in 1827."

Everyone knows you can't invent something that was written 1800 years prior. Nice try though tet !!

HisServant
October 15th, 2015, 11:11 AM
Everyone knows you can't invent something that was written 1800 years prior. Nice try though tet !!

But you can twist a word and translate it into something that was never in the original meaning... the rapture is a classical example of doing so.

Right Divider
October 15th, 2015, 11:11 AM
The remnant AKA called out ones who responded to the call to come out of Babylon where all of Christianity went into after the last apostle died

These are the ones who will take Zion that is in the clouds where they are caught up to be with the Lord in the clouds.......... however Zion is on earth that was the highest point of worship in Jerusalem (the church) and is where the tabernacle of David was set up that God has promised to raise back up

God has always appeared unto man from clouds such as at the ark of the covenant in the clouds of smoke from incense burned on the golden alter representing the prayers of the saints, (Rev.8:4 KJV) to the clouds over the jews in the wilderness to the clouds on Mt Sinai
So do think that the church which is His body is the same one as the church in the wilderness?

Do you think that a church that is made up of Jew and Greek is the same one where there is NEITHER Jew nor Greek?

Do you think that a church under the law is the same one that is not under the law, but under grace?

Livelystone
October 15th, 2015, 11:46 AM
So do think that the church which is His body is the same one as the church in the wilderness?

What was 3500 years ago cannot be the same today albeit the history and prophecy surrounding the jews speak to us in metaphors and allegories that are for our edification


Do you think that a church that is made up of Jew and Greek is the same one where there is NEITHER Jew nor Greek?

Seems to me you have already answered your own question


Do you think that a church under the law is the same one that is not under the law, but under grace?

There is only one place the law as a schoolteacher to teach us what is needed to know on our side of the equation for the full statue of Christ being formed in us that is not hidden and locked up in mysteries is my book........ you are welcome to it for free just as everyone else is

The visible litmus test for who is worshipping God in spirit and in truth is seen through signs and wonders following their ministry......... not a ministry of signs and wonders but a ministry of truth that because of the truth being taught and known by them God gives them witness through signs and wonders with their prayers being answered in a way only God can do

Signs and wonders is the way God has always shown His approval on a people throughout history, and God does not change other than extending mercy in place of judgement

Anytime you have a sizable body of believers together someone at some point in time is going to be in need of a life saving or radical health changing miracle.......... but if there are never any miracles seen in said church is because God has turned His back on them. When he has done so it is for a reason that most often is false doctrines and false beliefs in the hearts of the believers present such as the church being physically taken off of the earth as well as other events that are never going to happen

Right Divider
October 15th, 2015, 02:06 PM
What was 3500 years ago cannot be the same today albeit the history and prophecy surrounding the jews speak to us in metaphors and allegories that are for our edification

Their history is a bit more than JUST "metaphors and allegories that are for our edification".

I can see that you don't have much respect for God's Word.

1Mind1Spirit
October 15th, 2015, 02:23 PM
This is a modern day case of 4 people in a car defying all odds and explanations that was still 14 years before I returned to walking with the Lord.

If I learned anything from the above is, for sure I KNOW God can and will physically lift us up of the earth from where we are to where he wants us to be without any contribution to this happening coming from us. In addition to this the above is testimony to Christian parents who continue on with daily prayer for their children who have left the Lord and joined themselves to the world

Yep, our old man is shown things in dreams.

Our young man is shown visions.

Interesting the exact time my mom died, my truck finally quit running on my mother's prayers and came to a skidding stop in the middle of the road.

It had ran for over a year with a hole the size of a baseball in the transfer case.

1Mind1Spirit
October 15th, 2015, 02:27 PM
Their history is a bit more than JUST "metaphors and allegories that are for our edification".

I can see that you don't have much respect for God's Word.

Nope, it shows yer lack in the ability to rightly divide God's word.

tetelestai
October 15th, 2015, 02:34 PM
Everyone knows you can't invent something that was written 1800 years prior.

Show us one person that wrote about the rapture before John Nelson Darby?

I'm still waiting for you to tell us what happens to the people left on planet earth after your alleged rapture takes place?

OCTOBER23
October 15th, 2015, 03:06 PM
teeetetetetett saiiid,

I'm still waiting for you to tell us what happens to the people left on planet earth after your alleged rapture takes place?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

SATAN IS CAST DOWN AND THE PHILADELPHIAN CHURCH GOES UP TO THE NEW JERUSALEM

The Laodicean Church is Left behind to suffer a little persecution to wake them up and then they are Raptured. When JESUS comes , all those who are left that call out to JESUS to be saved will be resurrected. The Jews in Jerusalem
will be persecuted and enslaved by the Turkish Antichrist who breaks the Peace Treaty made with him. When Jesus appears in the Sky their will also be Planet X right behind him that will give the Earth a shower of huge Asteroids and a pole shift that will cause the Oceans to Flood all the Coastal areas and Islands
and KILL BILLIONS OF PEOPLE.

The people of the Earth will Cry and Mourn for all the Dead people.

Matthew 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.


Jeremiah 4:24 I beheld the mountains, and, lo, they trembled, and all the hills moved lightly.
25 I beheld, and, lo, there was no man, and all the birds of the heavens were fled.
26 I beheld, and, lo, the fruitful place was a wilderness, and all the cities thereof were broken down at the presence of the LORD, and by his fierce anger.
27 For thus hath the LORD said, The whole land shall be desolate; yet will I not make a full end.
28 For this shall the earth mourn, and the heavens above be black: because I have spoken it, I have purposed it, and will not repent, neither will I turn back from it.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

1Mind1Spirit
October 15th, 2015, 03:13 PM
Show us one person that wrote about the rapture before John Nelson Darby?


http://beforeitsnews.com/religion/2013/08/what-did-ancient-church-fathers-believe-about-the-rapture-2454458.html?

Carnal minded men existed even then.




I'm still waiting for you to tell us what happens to the people left on planet earth after your alleged rapture takes place?

What? You haven't seen the movies?:execute:

Livelystone
October 15th, 2015, 03:14 PM
T
I can see that you don't have much respect for God's Word.

That was way out of line and reeks of an immature babe in Christ who is still unaware of the foundational doctrines you are required to know the truth of before God can move you into perfection

Not because I give one dead rats rear end about your opinion of me, but because of your arrogance in thinking you can judge others made obvious in your list of names but not bring equal judgment on yourself............. go figure

Even more so when someone such as yourself thinking yourself wise with your lawbreaking methods (AKA a sin) of how you think to rightly divide the word that in truth is committing spiritual abortion through the killing of the life within the Word of God through your traditions of man that are contrary to God............ while at the same time heaping on to yourself more souls who like you are already twice dead

1Mind1Spirit
October 15th, 2015, 03:33 PM
That was way out of line and reeks of an immature babe in Christ who is still unaware of the foundational doctrines you are required to know the truth of before God can move you into perfection

Not because I give one dead rats rear end about your opinion of me, but because of your arrogance in thinking you can judge others made obvious in your list of names but not bring equal judgment on yourself............. go figure

Even more so when someone such as yourself thinking yourself wise with your lawbreaking methods (AKA a sin) of how you think to rightly divide the word that in truth is committing spiritual abortion through the killing of the life within the Word of God through your traditions of man that are contrary to God............ while at the same time heaping on to yourself more souls who like you are already twice dead

Yeah.

I've told him to put on his big boy britches before.

Go easy on him, he's still doing his business in them pull up training pants.

tetelestai
October 15th, 2015, 03:35 PM
http://beforeitsnews.com/religion/2013/08/what-did-ancient-church-fathers-believe-about-the-rapture-2454458.html?

Carnal minded men existed even then.


I've seen all those arguments by Dispies that claim there were men before Darby who preached the rapture. They are all wrong. None of those men preached, or taught what Darby invented.

It drives Dispensationalists crazy that everything they believe didn't exist before Darby. They have desperately tried to show someone teaching what Darby taught before Darby, but they can't.

If you notice, almost every Dispensationalist on TOL does everything they can to not be associated with Darby. That's because they are embarrassed that everything they believe was invented in the mid 1800's by Darby.

They live in denial.

tetelestai
October 15th, 2015, 03:44 PM
When Jesus appears in the Sky their will also be Planet X right behind him that will give the Earth a shower of huge Asteroids

Hmmmmmm......the B-52's did a song about Planet X

User Name
October 15th, 2015, 03:58 PM
I've seen all those arguments by Dispies that claim there were men before Darby who preached the rapture. They are all wrong. None of those men preached, or taught what Darby invented.

How do you respond to A4T's post, quoted below?


Already proven false -

Irenaeus(130 ad to 202 ad) in his writing "Against Heresies - 5.29"



Cyprian (200 AD – 258 AD) In "Treatises of Cyprian":



Ephraim The Syrian (306 AD – 373 AD) In his work, "On The Last Times 2", he wrote:



Then of course the bible describes it and thats where it came from, so anyone claiming the darby junk is just flat out wrong, its long been debunked.

tetelestai
October 15th, 2015, 05:16 PM
How do you respond to A4T's post, quoted below?

She's wrong.

For example, Ephraim The Syrian (technically Pseudo Ephraim The Syrian) taught that Christians would escape the tribulation through death, not a "rapture".

The document A4T is referring to is "Sermon on the End of the World" by Pseudo Ephraim The Syrian.

The document was originally written in Syrian, then translated to Greek, then translated to Latin.

Dispensationalists use the Latin version which says the following:

"For all the saints and elect of God are gathered, prior to the tribulation that is to come, and are taken to the Lord lest they see the confusion that is to overwhelm the world because of our sins."

Now, in reading the above with no context, it does sound like pre-trib rapture doctrine.

However, when we look at the original Syrian version (Ephraim was Syrian, not Latin), we find the same passage says the following:

"Pronouncing the good fortune of the deceased Who had avoided the calamity: 'Blessed are you for you were borne away (to the grave) And hence you escaped from the afflictions!"

As we see above, Pseudo Ephraim The Syrian taught that the Christians would escape the tribulation by death.

Other passages in the document say the following:

"Then the Evil One will become enraged With the saints at that time; He will draw his terrible sword And sever the necks of the righteous ones."

"Nation will rise up against nation, And kingdom against kingdom. Lawlessness will be sovereign on earth And the defiled will pursue after the saints."

Does the above two statements sound like rapture doctrine? Does it sound Pre-Trib?

When Pseudo Ephraim The Syrian's document is read in its entirety, and in context, it is very easy to see that there is no trace of what Darby invented (the rapture).

Rapture adherents are so desperate for something to show the rapture heresy existed before Darby, they do desperate things.

Right Divider
October 15th, 2015, 06:13 PM
That was way out of line and reeks of an immature babe in Christ who is still unaware of the foundational doctrines you are required to know the truth of before God can move you into perfection

Not because I give one dead rats rear end about your opinion of me, but because of your arrogance in thinking you can judge others made obvious in your list of names but not bring equal judgment on yourself............. go figure

Even more so when someone such as yourself thinking yourself wise with your lawbreaking methods (AKA a sin) of how you think to rightly divide the word that in truth is committing spiritual abortion through the killing of the life within the Word of God through your traditions of man that are contrary to God............ while at the same time heaping on to yourself more souls who like you are already twice dead
It's interesting how arrogant folks like yourself can accuse people that you DON'T even KNOW and have NEVER met of SIN.

Get saved.

glorydaz
October 15th, 2015, 06:22 PM
It's interesting how arrogance folks like yourself can accuse people that you DON'T even KNOW and have NEVER met of SIN.

Get saved.

Oh, don't you know, RD, they have been gifted with great vision and can see right through those invisible wires which connect directly to your computer? I read about that on the world wide web. And those computers are really special cameras that take pictures of everything you do in your house. Just don't take your laptop into any private room....cause, you know. The whole world would hear that you wear mismatched clothes, as well.

Truth is....what would the fools do if they couldn't imagine the sins we are committing? It always makes them look holier than thou. ;)

glorydaz
October 15th, 2015, 06:26 PM
Their history is a bit more than JUST "metaphors and allegories that are for our edification".

I can see that you don't have much respect for God's Word.


That was way out of line and reeks of an immature babe in Christ who is still unaware of the foundational doctrines you are required to know the truth of before God can move you into perfection

Not because I give one dead rats rear end about your opinion of me, but because of your arrogance in thinking you can judge others made obvious in your list of names but not bring equal judgment on yourself............. go figure

Even more so when someone such as yourself thinking yourself wise with your lawbreaking methods (AKA a sin) of how you think to rightly divide the word that in truth is committing spiritual abortion through the killing of the life within the Word of God through your traditions of man that are contrary to God............ while at the same time heaping on to yourself more souls who like you are already twice dead

Ah, look. This one is having a real tannie. And that post by Right Divider at the top brought it on. :rotfl:

tetelestai
October 15th, 2015, 06:32 PM
Cyprian (200 AD – 258 AD) In "Treatises of Cyprian":

“We who see that terrible things have begun, and know that still more terrible things are imminent, may regard it as the greatest advantage to depart from it as quickly as possible. Do you not give God thanks, do you not congratulate yourself, that by an early departure you are taken away, and delivered from the shipwrecks and disasters that are imminent? Let us greet the day which assigns each of us to his own home, which snatches us hence, and sets us free from the snares of the world and restores us to paradise and the kingdom.”

More deception by a desperate Darby follower.

First off, the quote you give above is from Treatise VII, which is called "On the Mortality". HERE (http://biblehub.com/library/cyprian/the_treatises_of_cyprian/treatise_vii_on_the_mortality.htm)

You should read the opening paragraph, it talks about the diseases and deaths that were taking place at that time.

The quote you gave, when taken in context, is referring to individuals who were getting sick and dying, NOT a rapture of the church.

Here is what the preceding verse of the quote you gave says:

" laying aside the fear of death, let us think on the immortality which follows. By this let us show ourselves to be what we believe, that we do not grieve over the departure of those dear to us (previous deaths), and that when the day of our summons shall arrive (we get deadly infection), we come without delay and without resistance to the Lord when He Himself calls us.”.


Again, the context is about disease, sickness, and dying, NOT a secret rapture of the church.

Also, whatever Dispensational website you got the quote from misquotes Cyprian. Your quote says "early departure", that is not correct, the correct document says "earlier departure", meaning getting sick and dying from disease earlier than planned, NOT a secret rapture of the church.

A4T, you should really do some research before you blindly go to a Dispensational website and copy and paste something out of context to support your rapture heresy.

OCTOBER23
October 15th, 2015, 07:10 PM
TEHEHE said,

.the B-52's did a song about Planet X
-----------------------------------------

Really ? give me the webpage or Youtube.

tetelestai
October 15th, 2015, 07:26 PM
TEHEHE said,

.the B-52's did a song about Planet X
-----------------------------------------

Really ? give me the webpage or Youtube.

The song is called "Whammy Kiss" (by the B-52's)

HERE (http://www.azlyrics.com/lyrics/b52s/whammykiss.html) are the lyrics

"On Planet X-oh it
Won't be long now
I got a light year to
Get to the phone now"...

How about "Rapture" by Blondie?

What do you think of that song? It's more in line with the title of this thread.

1Mind1Spirit
October 15th, 2015, 07:42 PM
Oh, don't you know, RD, they have been gifted with great vision and can see right through those invisible wires which connect directly to your computer? I read about that on the world wide web. And those computers are really special cameras that take pictures of everything you do in your house. Just don't take your laptop into any private room....cause, you know. The whole world would hear that you wear mismatched clothes, as well.

Truth is....what would the fools do if they couldn't imagine the sins we are committing? It always makes them look holier than thou. ;)

Conceited Foolishness.



Galatians 6:1 KJV


1 Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual, restore such an one in the spirit of meekness; considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted .

Oh wait, conceits a fault and you don't have any of those.:doh:

patrick jane
October 15th, 2015, 07:49 PM
The song is called "Whammy Kiss" (by the B-52's)

HERE (http://www.azlyrics.com/lyrics/b52s/whammykiss.html) are the lyrics

"On Planet X-oh it
Won't be long now
I got a light year to
Get to the phone now"...

How about "Rapture" by Blondie?

What do you think of that song? It's more in line with the title of this thread.

It's funny because you only take the word rapture; a descriptive word used buy a guy 1800 years after it was written. It's only a word to describe being caught up to meet Christ or caught up by the Holy Ghost. Do you deny the scriptures ?

Acts 8:39-40 KJV - 1 Thessalonians 4:17 KJV -

Interplanner
October 15th, 2015, 07:55 PM
The Rapture was invented by Roman Catholics trying to counter the
identification of the Vatican as the Great harlot.

Then Darby, and Scofield, and Hal Lindsay popularized the Rapture,
and now many Protestants think that the Rapture is some kind of Protestant doctrine.

i3hXKNTMuEY

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i3hXKNTMuEY




I didn't view this yet, but the title is on the wrong track. The problem with the Ribera eschatology is that it is set in future Israel so that there is no way to consider the Pope to be AC. In several years of reading, I don't remember any accusation that Ribera concocted the rapture.

All Paul mean by referring to that translation event was that Christians alive at the last moment of history will be changed from this life to immortality unlike those who died. Obviously.

tetelestai
October 15th, 2015, 07:55 PM
Do you deny the scriptures ?

Of course not.

I deny what John Nelson Darby called a "rapture".

What Darby invented is not in the Bible.

Right Divider
October 16th, 2015, 07:35 AM
Of course not.

I deny what John Nelson Darby called a "rapture".

What Darby invented is not in the Bible.
What is the "catching up"? Start a new thread and tell us all about it.
1Th 4:13-18 KJV But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. (14) For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. (15) For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. (16) For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: (17) Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. (18) Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
P.S. Who is John Nelson Darby?

SaulToPaul
October 16th, 2015, 09:11 AM
What is the "catching up"? Start a new thread and tell us all about it.
1Th 4:13-18 KJV But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. (14) For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. (15) For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. (16) For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: (17) Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. (18) Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
P.S. Who is John Nelson Darby?

My understanding of Tetelestaism is that the dead in Christ rose in 70ad and those that were alive and remain (including us) are caught up with them when we die...one at a time. Not together.

Danoh
October 16th, 2015, 09:18 AM
I've seen all those arguments by Dispies that claim there were men before Darby who preached the rapture. They are all wrong. None of those men preached, or taught what Darby invented.

It drives Dispensationalists crazy that everything they believe didn't exist before Darby. They have desperately tried to show someone teaching what Darby taught before Darby, but they can't.

If you notice, almost every Dispensationalist on TOL does everything they can to not be associated with Darby. That's because they are embarrassed that everything they believe was invented in the mid 1800's by Darby.

They live in denial.

Yours reminds of Philippians 1:18.

In this, I have to thank you for so endeavoring keep Darby's name out there.

steko
October 16th, 2015, 09:19 AM
My understanding of Tetelestaism is that the dead in Christ rose in 70ad and those that were alive and remain (including us) are caught up with them when we die...one at a time. Not together.

I thought Paul said 'together with them'.
Yeah, I think Paul said 'together with them'.

SaulToPaul
October 16th, 2015, 09:20 AM
I thought Paul said 'together with them'.
Yeah, I think Paul said 'together with them'.

Yes, Tetelestaism is fatally flawed.

steko
October 16th, 2015, 09:26 AM
I didn't view this yet, but the title is on the wrong track. The problem with the Ribera eschatology is that it is set in future Israel so that there is no way to consider the Pope to be AC. In several years of reading, I don't remember any accusation that Ribera concocted the rapture.

All Paul mean by referring to that translation event was that Christians alive at the last moment of history will be changed from this life to immortality unlike those who died. Obviously.

You're saying there will be a very 'last moment'?

Right Divider
October 16th, 2015, 09:33 AM
Yes, Tetelestaism is fatally flawed.
Was it invented in 1800?

SaulToPaul
October 16th, 2015, 09:35 AM
Was it invented in 1800?

I think it was 2010, actually.

patrick jane
October 16th, 2015, 10:11 AM
My understanding of Tetelestaism is that the dead in Christ rose in 70ad and those that were alive and remain (including us) are caught up with them when we die...one at a time. Not together.


:mock:
One at a time LOL. :jolly:

SaulToPaul
October 16th, 2015, 10:14 AM
:mock:
One at a time LOL. :jolly:

Unless it's a Romeo and Juliet scenario, I guess...

tetelestai
October 16th, 2015, 12:43 PM
[/INDENT]P.S. Who is John Nelson Darby?

That is like a Mormon asking who is Joseph Smith.

No one is ever going to take you serious as long as you keep living in denial.

tetelestai
October 16th, 2015, 12:50 PM
Yes, Tetelestaism is fatally flawed.

Not really.

You have to adhere to "soul sleep" until the rapture/resurrection for your theory to work.

steko has to believe that when he dies his soul floats around in Heaven somewhere without any sort of body waiting for the rapture/resurrection to get his new body. Then he believes that after the rapture/resurrection, he returns back to planet earth with Jesus in his new body when the alleged 7 year Trib is over.

I believe that when we die, we are instantly in the presence of the Lord, and in the Kingdom of God with a glorified body forever, and never come back to planet earth.

SaulToPaul
October 16th, 2015, 12:57 PM
You have to adhere to "soul sleep" until the rapture/resurrection for your theory to work.



No, some rapture believers are on each side of the debate.

tetelestai
October 16th, 2015, 12:59 PM
What is the "catching up"? Start a new thread and tell us all about it.[INDENT]1Th 4:13-18 KJV But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. (14) For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. (15) For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. (16) For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: (17) Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. (18) Wherefore comfort one another with these words.


"we who are alive and remain" is a reference to first century Christians, not Christians today, or in the future.

The context of the passage is believers that had already died.

tetelestai
October 16th, 2015, 01:01 PM
No, some rapture believers are on each side of the debate.

There are only two sides for rapture believers. That's why I used you and steko as examples of the two sides.

Rapture believers have to either believe in soul sleep, or that their souls go to Heaven and/or Paradise without a body until the rapture/resurrection.

A lot of Dispies believe their souls (without a body) go to Paradise, but most MADists such as yourself don't, because you/they can't have "Body Believers" going to the same place as "kingdom Believers".

Which is why most MADists adhere to soul sleep like you do.

Right Divider
October 16th, 2015, 01:36 PM
That is like a Mormon asking who is Joseph Smith.

No one is ever going to take you serious as long as you keep living in denial.
You could not be more wrong. I have never read any JND. I have only heard what some people say about him.

You are the type of liar that likes to TRY to use "quilt by association" even when there is NO association.

That's just plain dishonest on YOUR part.

I would think that someone that names the name of Christ could do better than lie.

Right Divider
October 16th, 2015, 01:39 PM
Not really.

You have to adhere to "soul sleep" until the rapture/resurrection for your theory to work.

There is NO time outside the physical world.

That is why God can see the end from the beginning.

Even "eternity" makes no sense at in all in the context of time.

God has ALWAYS existed. He is not bound by time.

tetelestai
October 16th, 2015, 01:49 PM
You could not be more wrong. I have never read any JND. I have only heard what some people say about him.

You are the type of liar that likes to TRYS to use "quilt by association" even when there is NO association.

That's just plain dishonest on YOUR part.

I would think that someone that names the name of Christ could be better than lie.

It doesn't matter that you never literally read anything from John Nelson Darby. You're a Dispensationalist, therefore everything you have been taught has come from John Nelson Darby.

IOW, someone who taught you was taught by someone who was taught by someone who was taught by someone, etc. who was taught by John Nelson Darby.

As I said, you live in denial.

SaulToPaul
October 16th, 2015, 01:50 PM
There is NO time outside the physical world.

That is why God can see the end from the beginning.

Even "eternity" makes no sense at in all in the context of time.

God has ALWAYS existed. He is not bound by time.

I tend to agree, Right Nelson Divider.

tetelestai
October 16th, 2015, 01:51 PM
There is NO time outside the physical world.

I guess that means you believe in soul sleep?

Where was the place that Lazarus and the rich man went to? Did time exist in that place?

steko
October 16th, 2015, 01:56 PM
Not really.

You have to adhere to "soul sleep" until the rapture/resurrection for your theory to work.

steko has to believe that when he dies his soul floats around in Heaven somewhere without any sort of body waiting for the rapture/resurrection to get his new body. Then he believes that after the rapture/resurrection, he returns back to planet earth with Jesus in his new body when the alleged 7 year Trib is over.

I believe that when we die, we are instantly in the presence of the Lord, and in the Kingdom of God with a glorified body forever, and never come back to planet earth.

Well, there you go talkin' about me behind my back...........................and right to my face.

I'm working on the top of my house, putting a roof on, so I won't be putting much into this.

If the rapture takes place today....I'll have a shorter trip.

SaulToPaul
October 16th, 2015, 01:57 PM
Well, there you go talkin' about me behind my back...........................and right to my face.

I'm working on the top of my house, putting a roof on, so I won't be putting much into this.

If the rapture takes place today....I'll have a shorter trip.

Your neighbors will wonder why your clothes are left on the roof.

:chuckle:

tetelestai
October 16th, 2015, 01:57 PM
I'm working on the top of my house, putting a roof on, so I won't be putting much into this.

If the rapture takes place today....I'll have a shorter trip.

Are you installing a "rapture hatch"?

http://wp.production.patheos.com/blogs/christianpiatt/files/2013/11/rapture-hatch.jpg

SaulToPaul
October 16th, 2015, 02:01 PM
Are you installing a "rapture hatch"?

http://wp.production.patheos.com/blogs/christianpiatt/files/2013/11/rapture-hatch.jpg

What about workers in the coal mines?

tetelestai
October 16th, 2015, 02:04 PM
Your neighbors will wonder why your clothes are left on the roof.

:chuckle:

You can ask steko, but he said only his soul goes to heaven/paradise until the rapture/resurrection.

Wouldn't that mean his body stays here with his clothes?

Since we're on the subject, do you believe your vile body gets raptured like in the following picture?

http://beforeitsnews.com/mediadrop/uploads/2013/45/d44cf1fb9149945eee96d9e15e4509321bddadde.jpg

Do you believe the Christians just disappear?

Or do you believe only the souls get raptured, leaving a corpse?

Totton Linnet
October 16th, 2015, 02:05 PM
Your neighbors will wonder why your clothes are left on the roof.

:chuckle:

Yikes ! we are going bucko?

SaulToPaul
October 16th, 2015, 02:05 PM
I believe our houses from heaven come down with Christ, and the spirits of those in the Body of Christ go up, and meet in the air.

tetelestai
October 16th, 2015, 02:06 PM
What about workers in the coal mines?

See my previous post.

SaulToPaul
October 16th, 2015, 02:06 PM
Yikes ! we are going bucko?

We best be hitting the gym?

tetelestai
October 16th, 2015, 02:09 PM
I believe our houses from heaven come down with Christ, and the spirits of those in the Body of Christ go up, and meet in the air.

So, if I understand you correctly, your corpse will remain here, and your soul will be raptured and merge with your new body in the air?

However, if you die before the rapture, you're soul sleeps until the rapture/resurrection, and then raises and meets your new body in the air before those alive get raptured?

WonderfulLordJesus
October 16th, 2015, 02:11 PM
Do you believe the Christians just disappear?

Or do you believe only the souls get raptured, leaving a corpse?

Doesn't scripture say we will be changed (1 Corinthians 15:52), will put on the incorruptible and be like the first fruits of the resurrection, Jesus Christ, in body? Did the Lord Jesus leave a corpse on earth?

tetelestai
October 16th, 2015, 02:14 PM
Doesn't scripture say we will be changed (1 Corinthians 15:52), will put on the incorruptible and be like the first fruits of the resurrection, Jesus Christ, in body?

Yes it does.

I'm asking rapture proponents what happens before they are changed from corruptible to incorruptible.

Rapture proponents who die before the rapture have various theories as to what happens from the time they die, until the alleged rapture/resurrection takes place.



Did the Lord Jesus leave a corpse on earth?

No, He ascended to Heaven.

Right Divider
October 16th, 2015, 02:18 PM
It doesn't matter that you never literally read anything from John Nelson Darby. You're a Dispensationalist, therefore everything you have been taught has come from John Nelson Darby.

IOW, someone who taught you was taught by someone who was taught by someone who was taught by someone, etc. who was taught by John Nelson Darby.

As I said, you live in denial.
I get my dispensational views from a guy named Paul and a book called the Bible.

tetelestai
October 16th, 2015, 02:20 PM
I get my dispensational views from a guy named Paul and a book called the Bible.

More denial.

Your Dispensational views didn't come from Paul, they came from John Nelson Darby.

WonderfulLordJesus
October 16th, 2015, 02:22 PM
Yes it does.

I'm asking rapture proponents what happens before they are changed from corruptible to incorruptible.

Rapture proponents who die before the rapture have various theories as to what happens from the time they die, until the alleged rapture/resurrection takes place.



The spirit of the believer goes to be with the Lord.

Mark 9

2 And after six days Jesus taketh with him Peter, and James, and John, and leadeth them up into an high mountain apart by themselves: and he was transfigured before them.
3 And his raiment became shining, exceeding white as snow; so as no fuller on earth can white them.
4 And there appeared unto them Elias with Moses: and they were talking with Jesus.

2 Corinthians 5:8 We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord.

Philippians 1

21 For to me, to live is Christ, and to die is gain.
22 But if I live on in the flesh, this will mean fruit from my labor; yet what I shall choose I cannot tell.
23 For I am hard-pressed between the two, having a desire to depart and be with Christ, which is far better.
24 Nevertheless to remain in the flesh is more needful for you.
25 And being confident of this, I know that I shall remain and continue with you all for your progress and joy of faith,
26 that your rejoicing for me may be more abundant in Jesus Christ by my coming to you again.

Luke 23:42-43, And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom. And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

1 Thessalonians 4:13-14, But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

I Peter 4:6, For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.

I Peter 3:18-19, For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison.

Revelation 6

9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

OCTOBER23
October 16th, 2015, 02:26 PM
Sturgeon - Derby

https://youtu.be/ZcXUCHFBTeE

tetelestai
October 16th, 2015, 02:31 PM
The spirit of the believer goes to be with the Lord.

Which is why the rapture heresy doesn't work.

tetelestai
October 16th, 2015, 02:34 PM
Sturgeon - Derby

I don't think Charles Spurgeon was a Dispensationalist.

October 23 is only a week away.

October 21, 2015 is when Marty McFly shows up in the DeLorean from 1985

OCTOBER23
October 16th, 2015, 02:35 PM
Saul Paul Mentioned,

No, some rapture believers are on each side of the debate.
-----------------------------------------------------------------

That is because of the Scripture in Revelations ,

Revelation 19:10 And I fell at his feet to worship him.

And he said unto me, See thou do it not:

I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus:

worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.

-- FELLOW SERVANT ???? - Is this an Angel or a former Prophet or Apostle - ALIVE IN HEAVEN ?
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Luke 23:43 And Jesus said To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

2 Corinthians 12:4 How that he was caught up into paradise,

and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

OCTOBER23
October 16th, 2015, 02:48 PM
TELESTAI,

YOU DROP DEAD FIRST AND YOUR SPIRIT IS PUT IN A SILICON BODY

AT THE RAPTURE.

Hebrews 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

----------------------------------------------------------------------
ps : telestai, You have got to click on the https

Sturgeon - Derby

https://youtu.be/ZcXUCHFBTeE

WonderfulLordJesus
October 16th, 2015, 02:50 PM
Which is why the rapture heresy doesn't work.

If you say so, Torquemada.

tetelestai
October 16th, 2015, 02:54 PM
If you say so, Torquemada.

I never liked Grand Inquisitors. I have always found them to be too big for their britches.

Right Divider
October 16th, 2015, 03:10 PM
I guess that means you believe in soul sleep?

Where was the place that Lazarus and the rich man went to? Did time exist in that place?
Do you think that their soul and spirit were in a physical place?

tetelestai
October 16th, 2015, 03:17 PM
Do you think that their soul and spirit were in a physical place?

I'm asking you.

In the parable, Jesus says the rich man went to Hades, and Lazarus was on Abraham's side. Jesus said there was a great chasm that divided the two places.

Jesus said the rich man was able to talk to Abraham, and that the rich man was in constant torment.

You said there is no such thing as time, if so, where was this place?

OCTOBER23
October 16th, 2015, 06:48 PM
TETELESTAI,

Luke 16:22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died,

and was carried by the angels into Abraham’s bosom:

the rich man also died, and was buried;


Jesus said the rich man was able to talk to Abraham,
and that the rich man was in constant torment.
----------------------------------------------------------

Notice that Lazarus was - carried by the angels - to where Abraham was.

Notice that JESUS went to his Father's house which is the NEW JERUSALEM ABOVE.

Therefore, the Rich man is on the Earth and Abraham is above the clouds.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Revelation 3:12 Him that overcomes will I make a pillar in the temple of my God,
and he shall go no more out:
and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God,
which is new Jerusalem, which comes down out of heaven from my God:
and I will write upon him my new name.

Revelation 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God

out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

tetelestai
October 16th, 2015, 07:02 PM
Notice that Lazarus was - carried by the angels - to where Abraham was.

Where was that?

1Mind1Spirit
October 16th, 2015, 07:03 PM
TETELESTAI,

Luke 16:22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died,

and was carried by the angels into Abraham’s bosom:

the rich man also died, and was buried;


Jesus said the rich man was able to talk to Abraham,
and that the rich man was in constant torment.
----------------------------------------------------------

Notice that Lazarus was - carried by the angels - to where Abraham was.

Notice that JESUS went to his Father's house which is the NEW JERUSALEM ABOVE.

Therefore, the Rich man is on the Earth and Abraham is above the clouds.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Revelation 3:12 Him that overcomes will I make a pillar in the temple of my God,
and he shall go no more out:
and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God,
which is new Jerusalem, which comes down out of heaven from my God:
and I will write upon him my new name.

Revelation 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God

out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

Quite the imagination you have there.

:nono: