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Jamie Gigliotti
October 11th, 2015, 08:24 PM
"Indeed the first bridge of the gospel is that my identity is found in Jesus Christ because of whom I must tame my passions. My identity dictates my behavior." Ravi Zacharias; rzim.org; 'How Wide the Divide: Sexuality at the Forefront, Culture at the Crossroads'; July 15, 2015

How could your identity truly be found in Christ with it not effecting what you do for the better?

elohiym
October 11th, 2015, 08:28 PM
How could your identity truly be found in Christ with it not effecting what you do for the better?

Yes! Our identity dictates our behavior. A truthful and monumental idea.

glorydaz
October 11th, 2015, 08:32 PM
"Indeed the first bridge of the gospel is that my identity is found in Jesus Christ because of whom I must tame my passions. My identity dictates my behavior." Ravi Zacharias; rzim.org; 'How Wide the Divide: Sexuality at the Forefront, Culture at the Crossroads'; July 15, 2015

How could your identity truly be found in Christ with it not effecting what you do for the better?

"I must tame my passions"? It can't start there, that's for sure.

elohiym
October 11th, 2015, 08:38 PM
"I must tame my passions"? It can't start there, that's for sure.

Correct. It starts with identity, as in Galatians 2:20. Can that identity tame the passions? I say yes in agreement with the thread title.

patrick jane
October 11th, 2015, 08:42 PM
The opposite also rings true. Your behavior dictates your identity.

elohiym
October 11th, 2015, 08:44 PM
The opposite also rings true. Your behavior dictates your identity.

Identity dictates behavior, and behavior reflects identity, i.e. "a good tree cannot bear bad fruit."

glorydaz
October 11th, 2015, 08:48 PM
Correct. It starts with identity, as in Galatians 2:20. Can that identity tame the passions? I say yes in agreement with the thread title.

That "identity" has a name and the name is not yours or mine.

Danoh
October 11th, 2015, 08:55 PM
If you mean awareness or sense of identity, through being taught about it, yeah, I'd agree, Eph. 4:21.

One of the Apostle Paul's Identity Statements:

"I am crucified with Christ: neverthless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me." Gal. 2:20.

Jamie Gigliotti
October 12th, 2015, 06:55 AM
"I must tame my passions"? It can't start there, that's for sure.
Because of His love we tame our passions, because He desires us too; He wants to be our passion. Our identity is found in His love.

Jamie Gigliotti
October 12th, 2015, 07:00 AM
That "identity" has a name and the name is not yours or mine.

An adopted child of God, of whom Jesus is not ashamed to call brother, sister... There could not be a better identity

Jamie Gigliotti
October 12th, 2015, 07:03 AM
If you mean awareness or sense of identity, through being taught about it, yeah, I'd agree, Eph. 4:21.

One of the Apostle Paul's Identity Statements:

"I am crucified with Christ: neverthless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me." Gal. 2:20.
Great verse along these lines...

PureX
October 12th, 2015, 10:59 AM
"Indeed the first bridge of the gospel is that my identity is found in Jesus Christ because of whom I must tame my passions. My identity dictates my behavior." Ravi Zacharias; rzim.org; 'How Wide the Divide: Sexuality at the Forefront, Culture at the Crossroads'; July 15, 2015

How could your identity truly be found in Christ with it not effecting what you do for the better?Identity by politics, identity by religion, identity by wealth, … there seems to be a real problem these days with people identifying themselves as themselves. Why has it become so difficult for people to think for themselves, and decide for themselves what they will believe and how they should behave? We seem to be becoming a nation of idiots, all freely lapping up whatever our ideological overlords tell us. From Rush Limbaugh to Bill O'Reilly to Obama, to the cadre of TV Bible idolators, the media has become the mothership, sending out it's endless stream of programming intended to tell us all what to think, what to do, what to believe and who we are, because it doesn't dare let us start thinking for ourselves. And of course we can't think for ourselves so long as we're drowning in the din of the mothership's incessant propaganda.

God made us each to be uniquely ourselves. Not to throw ourselves away to join some Bible-worshipping religious cult. Turn off the radios, shut off the TVs, and put down the Bibles, and take the time to sit with and face yourself. And to find out who you really are, without someone else telling you who you're supposed to be.

And then be yourself, as God create you and intended you to be.

annabenedetti
October 12th, 2015, 11:04 AM
The opposite also rings true. Your behavior dictates your identity.

From a psychology standpoint, that's very true. Attitudes follow behavior.

annabenedetti
October 12th, 2015, 11:07 AM
God made us each to be uniquely ourselves. Not to throw ourselves away to join some Bible-worshipping religious cult. Turn off the radios, shut off the TVs, and put down the Bibles, and take the time to sit with and face yourself. And to find out who you really are, without someone else telling you who you're supposed to be.

And then be yourself, as God create you and intended you to be.

Have you found out who you really are, or is it still a work in progress for you?

Do you think you are right now who you were intended to be? Do you see yourself at this moment as being fully yourself?

Those are personal questions and I respect that you may not want to answer them. If you don't, just know that I was thinking about what you said.

PureX
October 12th, 2015, 11:15 AM
Have you found out who you really are, or is it still a work in progress for you?For the most part, I have. But it's been a struggle because like all of us, I grew being told who I was by others, and I believed them because I didn't know any better. And once I believed them, I had little reason to question it, until life made it impossible for my to keep on believing it.

But we don't all have to wait until we're caught in dire straits. We could begin the process now, slowly, and find our real selves over time, and without so much painful struggle.

Do you think you are right now who you were intended to be? Do you see yourself at this moment as being fully yourself?Yes, I do. But I also know that I fall into old patters of behavior and ways of thinking. And I also know that I don't know myself, fully. That there are aspects to me that I have not yet seen manifested. Life as 'PureX' is an adventure. As it is should be for each of us.

Those are personal questions and I respect that you may not want to answer them. If you don't, just know that I was thinking about what you said.We shouldn't need to fear being honest. Even if it turns out that we're wrong. How else can we learn? Besides, we're just electrons on a screen, here, anyway. :)

elohiym
October 12th, 2015, 11:36 AM
That "identity" has a name and the name is not yours or mine.

Please just speak for yourself, not for me. I wrote: "It starts with identity, as in Galatians 2:20."

elohiym
October 12th, 2015, 11:42 AM
An adopted child of God, of whom Jesus is not ashamed to call brother, sister... There could not be a better identity

Amen. It is written, "I have said, Ye are [elohiym]; and all of you are children of the most High." Paul preached, "...[F]or in Him we live and move and exist, as even some of your own poets have said, 'For we also are His children.' Being then the children of God, we ought not to think that the Divine Nature is like gold or silver or stone, an image formed by the art and thought of man.

elohiym
October 12th, 2015, 11:50 AM
From a psychology standpoint, that's very true. Attitudes follow behavior.

Could you elaborate, maybe provide an argument? It seems that behavior follows attitudes and consequences follow behavior. I can believe those consequences are contributing to the formation of new attitudes and new behavior follows from those new attitudes.

jamie
October 12th, 2015, 12:10 PM
An adopted child of God, of whom Jesus is not ashamed to call brother, sister... There could not be a better identity


The people of Jacob were adopted as God's nation but for the most part they were not begotten of the Spirit. They lacked the faith necessary for salvation.

We are begotten of the Spirit to be born of the Spirit at the coming of Jesus to establish his kingdom on earth.

patrick jane
October 12th, 2015, 12:23 PM
Identity by politics, identity by religion, identity by wealth, there seems to be a real problem these days with people identifying themselves as themselves. Why has it become so difficult for people to think for themselves, and decide for themselves what they will believe and how they should behave? We seem to be becoming a nation of idiots, all freely lapping up whatever our ideological overlords tell us. From Rush Limbaugh to Bill O'Reilly to Obama, to the cadre of TV Bible idolators, the media has become the mothership, sending out it's endless stream of programming intended to tell us all what to think, what to do, what to believe and who we are, because it doesn't dare let us start thinking for ourselves. And of course we can't think for ourselves so long as we're drowning in the din of the mothership's incessant propaganda.

God made us each to be uniquely ourselves. Not to throw ourselves away to join some Bible-worshipping religious cult. Turn off the radios, shut off the TVs, and put down the Bibles, and take the time to sit with and face yourself. And to find out who you really are, without someone else telling you who you're supposed to be.

And then be yourself, as God create you and intended you to be.


:up:

OCTOBER23
October 12th, 2015, 12:36 PM
JAMIE GIGGILO,

FAST AND BECOME A VEGETARIAN AND YOUR PASSIONS WILL CALM DOWN.

Matthew 6:16 Moreover when ye fast, be not, as the hypocrites, of a sad countenance: for they disfigure their faces, that they may appear unto men to fast. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.

Jamie Gigliotti
October 12th, 2015, 02:38 PM
Identity by politics, identity by religion, identity by wealth, there seems to be a real problem these days with people identifying themselves as themselves. Why has it become so difficult for people to think for themselves, and decide for themselves what they will believe and how they should behave? We seem to be becoming a nation of idiots, all freely lapping up whatever our ideological overlords tell us. From Rush Limbaugh to Bill O'Reilly to Obama, to the cadre of TV Bible idolators, the media has become the mothership, sending out it's endless stream of programming intended to tell us all what to think, what to do, what to believe and who we are, because it doesn't dare let us start thinking for ourselves. And of course we can't think for ourselves so long as we're drowning in the din of the mothership's incessant propaganda.

God made us each to be uniquely ourselves. Not to throw ourselves away to join some Bible-worshipping religious cult. Turn off the radios, shut off the TVs, and put down the Bibles, and take the time to sit with and face yourself. And to find out who you really are, without someone else telling you who you're supposed to be.

And then be yourself, as God create you and intended you to be.

Each one of us a unique glorious creation, but with self discovery comes the danger of the self wanting primacy in 'our lives'. Our selves, our passions can very much be a detriment. Self idolizing, is a barrier between us and God. Pride is the root of all sin.

Identifying as His child first with unique attributes designed to do the good God wills causes no harm.

Jamie Gigliotti
October 12th, 2015, 02:39 PM
The people of Jacob were adopted as God's nation but for the most part they were not begotten of the Spirit. They lacked the faith necessary for salvation.

We are begotten of the Spirit to be born of the Spirit at the coming of Jesus to establish his kingdom on earth.

We may think we are His children, but it is His Spirit that confirms it.

Jamie Gigliotti
October 12th, 2015, 02:40 PM
JAMIE GIGGILO,

FAST AND BECOME A VEGETARIAN AND YOUR PASSIONS WILL CALM DOWN.

Matthew 6:16 Moreover when ye fast, be not, as the hypocrites, of a sad countenance: for they disfigure their faces, that they may appear unto men to fast. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.

I'd rather fast and raise my passion for Jesus.

Town Heretic
October 12th, 2015, 03:47 PM
I think anna found the heart of this and I'd like to address it.

God made us each to be uniquely ourselves.
Couldn't agree more, though I'd add that the point of our individuality isn't found there.


Not to throw ourselves away to join some Bible-worshipping religious cult.
I don't know what Bible-worshiping cult means to you. So it's hard to respond on the point.


Turn off the radios, shut off the TVs, and put down the Bibles, and take the time to sit with and face yourself.
I'll agree that the unexamined life isn't worth much. I don't know why I'd want to put down my Bible though. Seems a bit like going on an expedition without a map.


And to find out who you really are, without someone else telling you who you're supposed to be. And then be yourself, as God create you and intended you to be.
But then I can't listen to you on the point if I'm to take it. I'd say that if we trust God more than we trust our own judgment and lean on Him to do what we aren't capable of it will all work out well enough. :cheers:

jamie
October 12th, 2015, 04:03 PM
We may think we are His children, but it is His Spirit that confirms it.


Yes, the Spirit bears witness with our spirit that we are his children.

Ktoyou
October 12th, 2015, 04:03 PM
From a psychology standpoint, that's very true. Attitudes follow behavior.

True, behaviour can create cognition, can alter them and change their direction.

Ktoyou
October 12th, 2015, 04:16 PM
Tossing out Christianity; however, I will tell you the truth, you are not as much being yourself as you are being a 'tape' about what you believe you should be.
Now bring Jesus back in your life and you have a solid belief and the Holy Spirit will guide you to an authentic sense of a meaningful life!

meshak
October 12th, 2015, 04:23 PM
We may think we are His children, but it is His Spirit that confirms it.

That's right, that's why we should not claim to be true and saved Christians.

By doing so, it is boasting.

Town Heretic
October 12th, 2015, 04:26 PM
That's right, that's why we should not claim to be true and saved Christians.

By doing so, it is boasting.
No it isn't. But inferring our efforts will or may assure us is.

meshak
October 12th, 2015, 06:15 PM
No it isn't. But inferring our efforts will or may assure us is.



Boast away all you want.

See if Jesus approve of your boasting.

annabenedetti
October 12th, 2015, 06:49 PM
For the most part, I have. But it's been a struggle because like all of us, I grew being told who I was by others, and I believed them because I didn't know any better. And once I believed them, I had little reason to question it, until life made it impossible for my to keep on believing it.

I can relate to that.


But we don't all have to wait until we're caught in dire straits. We could begin the process now, slowly, and find our real selves over time, and without so much painful struggle.

Yes, I do. But I also know that I fall into old patters of behavior and ways of thinking. And I also know that I don't know myself, fully. That there are aspects to me that I have not yet seen manifested. Life as 'PureX' is an adventure. As it is should be for each of us.

We shouldn't need to fear being honest. Even if it turns out that we're wrong. How else can we learn? Besides, we're just electrons on a screen, here, anyway. :)Thank you for answering, I appreciate it. I think some (many? most?) go through life never really knowing themselves, let alone loving themselves. In the effort to avoid being self-absorbed, going too far the other way. And maybe just not wanting to look too closely at themselves for fear of what they might see.

PureX
October 12th, 2015, 07:01 PM
Each one of us a unique glorious creation, but with self discovery comes the danger of the self wanting primacy in 'our lives'. Our selves, our passions can very much be a detriment. Self idolizing, is a barrier between us and God.Self-idolizing: that is making ourselves out to be the embodiment of God (as opposed to our being expressions of God's love and generosity and forgiveness) is the 'original sin' of man. Because it does cut us off from the truth of our own being, and from the truth of our place within Creation. And the antidote to this 'original sin' is humility.

Humility is understanding ourselves to be no more, and no less than we are. It's the practice of keeping an honest and proportioned perspective on ourselves and on our place in the world.

I see far too much of religious Christianity that has completely disregarded the wisdom and practice of humility. And as a result, such religion becomes a mechanism for puffing up people's self-righteousness, and justifying the wholesale judgment and condemnation of others. The Christian ideals of forgiveness and generosity get discarded and replaced with an obsession with authoritarianism, and with absolute obedience to a religious dogma.

It's heartbreaking to witness, because our humanity becomes spurned as if it were evil, and our individuality is punished for it's 'disobedience to the dogma'.

And I have long since shunned religious Christianity for this reason.

PureX
October 12th, 2015, 07:17 PM
I think some (many? most?) go through life never really knowing themselves, let alone loving themselves. In the effort to avoid being self-absorbed, going too far the other way. And maybe just not wanting to look too closely at themselves for fear of what they might see.I'm not well versed in psychology, but it seems to me that our egos are mightily invested in protecting our idea of ourselves, whether that idea is accurate or not. And so we end up having to do battle with our own egos to finally gain the courage and peace of mind needed to honestly self-reflect. And many of us will not have the tenacity to take on that battle voluntarily. I know I didn't.

But some do. And many could. And I know this because when life finally forced me to do it, I did. And although it was very scary for a time, it was enormously worth it, and became more so each day. Taking the 'self' on as a kind of life-project is actually a pretty rewarding task. As I've found that I'm funny, and smart, and generally both kind and happy. I'm also a bit weird, stubborn, and lazy, though I've come to see being lazy as it's own odd kind of virtue. I'm creative and thoughtful and courageous in a few key ways, but I wish it were true in some others. Generally it turns out that I'm a way better person than I was led to believe when I didn't know any better, and I find this is true for almost everyone I've ever known that went to the trouble to discover themselves.

So I highly recommend it to anyone. :)

elohiym
October 12th, 2015, 07:20 PM
Humility is understanding ourselves to be no more, and no less than we are. It's the practice of keeping an honest and proportioned perspective on ourselves and on our place in the world.

I like your definition of humility. :)

glassjester
October 12th, 2015, 07:27 PM
it seems to me that our egos are mightily invested in protecting our idea of ourselves, whether that idea is accurate or not.

How can you ever know if the idea of yourself (that you happen to currently believe) is the "real" one or not?

patrick jane
October 12th, 2015, 07:28 PM
How can you ever know if the idea of yourself (that you happen to currently believe) is the "real" one or not?

Should it be other people's idea of yourself ?

elohiym
October 12th, 2015, 07:29 PM
If the Father says you are His son, then that is your identity. What more do you need to know? We discover the implications as we live.

glassjester
October 12th, 2015, 07:30 PM
Should it be other people's idea of yourself ?

Couldn't others' perception of you also be inaccurate?

PureX
October 12th, 2015, 07:34 PM
How can you ever know if the idea of yourself (that you happen to currently believe) is the "real" one or not?It's a process. It takes some time, and it requires a lot of 'rigorous honesty'. I look for instances when I experience anger or resentment toward people or circumstances in my life, and then really study them to try and find out why I'm reacting that way. (Not just immediately justify and rationalize those thought and feelings as my ego will always want me to do.) This will help me see when my reactions are out of reason and proportion with the facts of my reality. And from that I can begin to see how I am misperceiving things. I also have to watch my own behaviors, and see how they align with my intent. You know; that old saying about how insanity is doing the same things over and over while expecting a different result. The result is reality. If my intent is not aligning with my reality, I am not seeing something clearly, there, for some reason. If I catch myself doing that, I really want to know what's fueling it. I learn a lot of things about myself, and about my own thinking, just by paying attention to it. And to how it is effecting me.

The truth is 'what is'. Not what I think it is. So I have to keep an eye out for when these are not aligning.

elohiym
October 12th, 2015, 07:38 PM
It's a process.

My wife and I spend a great deal of our time doing what you describe. We can relate to a lot of what you have written on this thread. I was wondering if you go through the process with someone or "go it alone."

PureX
October 12th, 2015, 07:59 PM
My wife and I spend a great deal of our time doing what you describe. We can relate to a lot of what you have written on this thread. I was wondering if you go through the process with someone or "go it alone."I learned this from a 12-step program, for my own survival, and practiced it with program friends and a 'sponsor' for a long time. I did eventually stop participating in that program, and moved away, but I know it's always there if I need it, and I have acquired new friends over the years that I can trust to be honest with me if I talk to them about these sorts of things.

Also, I am a life-long artist, and believe it or not, the creative process that artists go through tends to involve a lot of investigation of our own perspective and understanding of things. So my mind is often found in that 'ballpark', anyway. It's in my nature. :)

Town Heretic
October 12th, 2015, 08:23 PM
Boast away all you want. See if Jesus approve of your boasting.
He would approve of what you misunderstand as that thing. Relying on Christ entirely isn't boasting, though claiming your works will save you seems rather hard to call anything else.

patrick jane
October 12th, 2015, 08:44 PM
Couldn't others' perception of you also be inaccurate?


That's what I was saying

Danoh
October 12th, 2015, 08:50 PM
How can you ever know if the idea of yourself (that you happen to currently believe) is the "real" one or not?

Ask Donald Trump.

Quincy
October 12th, 2015, 08:55 PM
I don't understand how that works. Do you have to filter everything about yourself, from your demeanor to your lexicon through a particular archetype? It sounds like this requires a lot of thought, even when doing something simple like talking.

Jamie Gigliotti
October 12th, 2015, 09:56 PM
I don't understand how that works. Do you have to filter everything about yourself, from your demeanor to your lexicon through a particular archetype? It sounds like this requires a lot of thought, even when doing something simple like talking.
Pyschologists say we tend to mostly get our identity through how others see us, how we are accepted, or rejected. Truly getting our identity, our acceptence, our love from God requires a spiritual intimacy, love connection with God that can truly change who we are and how we clearly see ourselves in relationship to Him.

PureX
October 13th, 2015, 03:37 AM
I don't understand how that works. Do you have to filter everything about yourself, from your demeanor to your lexicon through a particular archetype? It sounds like this requires a lot of thought, even when doing something simple like talking.I don't really understand it, either.

I have a good friend who is a life-long 'conservative republican', to the point that he really believes whatever the conservative republican spin machine tells him to believe regarding social issues, politics, and economics. I mean he believes it immediately, automatically, and fully. And he believes he believes it, himself, when I can see as plain as day that he believes it simply because he's being told to believe by this group that he has so intently identified himself with.

I suspect there are some very deep psychological reasons involving his childhood that have something to do with it. But even still, I suspect I would have reacted very differently to those same circumstances. So maybe it's just been written into his DNA. He was coded to be a 'follower' and he just can't help himself. I am certain that he has no idea that he's doing this. And he would be very insulted if I even suggested it to him.

I don't understand it. But it seems I am seeing more and more of this 'self-identification by external group-think' these days because the media has figured out that this tendency exists in people and can easily be exploited to it's own advantage. As have the republican party. And so they are both exploiting it to their maximum effect and there are apparently a lot of people who are susceptible to it, for whatever reason. But don't bother trying to tell them about it, because they will not hear you, and they will become very insulted by your even suggesting it.

chrysostom
October 13th, 2015, 05:12 AM
"My identity dictates my behavior"

not exactly

you are what you do

annabenedetti
October 13th, 2015, 05:31 AM
I don't really understand it, either.

I have a good friend who is a life-long 'conservative republican', to the point that he really believes whatever the conservative republican spin machine tells him to believe regarding social issues, politics, and economics. I mean he believes it immediately, automatically, and fully. And he believes he believes it, himself, when I can see as plain as day that he believes it simply because he's being told to believe by this group that he has so intently identified himself with.

I suspect there are some very deep psychological reasons involving his childhood that have something to do with it. But even still, I suspect I would have reacted very differently to those same circumstances. So maybe it's just been written into his DNA. He was coded to be a 'follower' and he just can't help himself. I am certain that he has no idea that he's doing this. And he would be very insulted if I even suggested it to him.

I don't understand it. But it seems I am seeing more and more of this 'self-identification by external group-think' these days because the media has figured out that this tendency exists in people and can easily be exploited to it's own advantage. As have the republican party. And so they are both exploiting it to their maximum effect and there are apparently a lot of people who are susceptible to it, for whatever reason. But don't bother trying to tell them about it, because they will not hear you, and they will become very insulted by your even suggesting it.


I think that the more people have invested themselves in an idea, the stronger they'll hold onto their convictions. Repeated public affirmation increases internal belief; saying is believing.

chrysostom
October 13th, 2015, 05:33 AM
I think that the more people have invested themselves in an idea, the stronger they'll hold onto their convictions. Repeated public affirmation increases internal belief; saying is believing.

doing is believing

annabenedetti
October 13th, 2015, 05:41 AM
doing is believing

I don't know if I can explain this well enough: the saying, in the way I meant it, is a doing. A public affirmation is taking a stand, it's an action. So in that we agree. As I said earlier in the thread, attitude follows behavior. The more a person does something, the more he or she has to agree internally with what they're doing, to avoid feeling uncomfortable.

chrysostom
October 13th, 2015, 05:46 AM
I don't know if I can explain this well enough: the saying, in the way I meant it, is a doing. A public affirmation is taking a stand, it's an action. So in that we agree. As I said earlier in the thread, attitude follows behavior. The more a person does something, the more he or she has to agree internally with what they're doing, to avoid feeling uncomfortable.

talk is all we can do on a forum
but
doing is what counts

meshak
October 13th, 2015, 06:09 AM
talk is all we can do on a forum
but
doing is what counts

yes.

Town Heretic
October 13th, 2015, 06:23 AM
Talk is the only form of doing on a forum. Now you two pipe down already. We understand everyone else is living in your illustrious shadows.

That's not bad and good day. :Plain:

Good thread, anna, but it could use a little math. :eek:

PureX
October 13th, 2015, 07:35 AM
I think that the more people have invested themselves in an idea, the stronger they'll hold onto their convictions. Repeated public affirmation increases internal belief; saying is believing.Yes. I see it as an ego thing. Our egos struggle to protect and maintain our idea of ourselves (and about everything else, too) whether they're good, bad, accurate, or absurd. So we have to tame our egos, and be willing to be both ignorant and wrong, to ever really learn anything, especially about ourselves. And people like my friend have a very difficult time doing that. He's not even aware that it's something he needs to do. And because he was abused as a kid, his self-image is very negative and his ego is quite fragile, and so I think he became a dogmatic follower of his self-identified 'clan' because doing so shores up his self-image and fragile ego.

Unfortunately, it also stops him from engaging in the very introspection that could heal the damage that was done to him.

ok doser
October 13th, 2015, 07:57 AM
you are what you do

i am a scratcher of butts? :freak:


talk is all we can do on a forum

nonsense, there's so much more

we can lock our threads, we can bully others, we can parse other's posts into oblivion...

Jamie Gigliotti
October 13th, 2015, 08:50 AM
"My identity dictates my behavior"

not exactly

you are what you do

If my identity came purely from what I've done good and bad, it would be depressing, unless I've ignored all the bad and puffed my ego up.

We need the forgiveness and love of God to remove the shame, move our hearts to good, and define who we are in Him going forward.

chrysostom
October 13th, 2015, 10:39 AM
If my identity came purely from what I've done good and bad, it would be depressing, unless I've ignored all the bad and puffed my ego up.

We need the forgiveness and love of God to remove the shame, move our hearts to good, and define who we are in Him going forward.

you will know a tree by its fruit
and
you know a bad apple when you see it

chrysostom
October 13th, 2015, 10:52 AM
I don't know if I can explain this well enough: the saying, in the way I meant it, is a doing. A public affirmation is taking a stand, it's an action. So in that we agree. As I said earlier in the thread, attitude follows behavior. The more a person does something, the more he or she has to agree internally with what they're doing, to avoid feeling uncomfortable.

and meshak agrees
does that ruin your day?

chrysostom
October 13th, 2015, 10:52 AM
yes.

good post meshak

Jamie Gigliotti
October 13th, 2015, 10:54 AM
you will know a tree by its fruit
and
you know a bad apple when you see it

Isn't it what Jesus came for to turn bad trees to good? And the trees knowing how much value they have by His love and acceptance turns them, or it can.

chrysostom
October 13th, 2015, 10:55 AM
i am a scratcher of butts? :freak:



nonsense, there's so much more

we can lock our threads, we can bully others, we can parse other's posts into oblivion...

you forgot innuendo

Town Heretic
October 13th, 2015, 10:58 AM
you forgot innuendo
I love to hear ironically challenged internet tough guys crying like someone stole their ponies. :chuckle:

chrysostom
October 13th, 2015, 11:01 AM
I love to hear ironically challenged internet tough guys crying like someone stole their ponies. :chuckle:

why did you think we were talking about you?

ok doser
October 13th, 2015, 11:03 AM
why did you think we were talking about you?

overly sensitive whiny little girlie-men always think people are talking about them

Town Heretic
October 13th, 2015, 11:03 AM
why did you think we were talking about you?
Who said anything about who you were talking/thinking about?

I mean other than you, just now.

ok doser
October 13th, 2015, 11:04 AM
you forgot innuendo

i believe we're seeing an example of it at the moment


that and weasely squirming :chuckle:

Jamie Gigliotti
October 13th, 2015, 11:16 AM
"My identity dictates my behavior"

not exactly

you are what you do

If we find out identity in Him and on a path following Him and fall, and say start some horrendous sin pattern, again. Can we still find identity in Him? How could we?

chrysostom
October 13th, 2015, 11:23 AM
If we find out identity in Him and on a path following Him and fall, and say start some horrendous sin pattern, again. Can we still find identity in Him? How could we?

what?
we fail every day
so
we ask forgiveness
and
try to do better

meshak
October 13th, 2015, 12:13 PM
what?
we fail every day
so
we ask forgiveness
and
try to do better

Yes:)

Jamie Gigliotti
October 13th, 2015, 12:14 PM
what?
we fail every day
so
we ask forgiveness
and
try to do better

That describes phillians 3, pressing on to perfection. Repentance.

There are those that say pressing on isn't necessary, or that that are just a sinner saved by grace, accepting their sins.

I don't see how you can truly have identity in Him without living for Him.

chrysostom
October 13th, 2015, 12:55 PM
That describes phillians 3, pressing on to perfection. Repentance.

There are those that say pressing on isn't necessary, or that that are just a sinner saved by grace, accepting their sins.

I don't see how you can truly have identity in Him without living for Him.

I believe in Him
I believe I will be forgiven
I believe I must do better

Quincy
October 13th, 2015, 02:12 PM
Pyschologists say we tend to mostly get our identity through how others see us, how we are accepted, or rejected. Truly getting our identity, our acceptence, our love from God requires a spiritual intimacy, love connection with God that can truly change who we are and how we clearly see ourselves in relationship to Him.

Well, I tend to act according to my instincts or conscience. I still don't understand how behavior comes from identity, after reading this. I don't really identify as anything other than human, yet a lot of people think I'm many different things. So I can relate to you what said about psychologists.

It seems like you're saying that a new found intimacy with God can change someone's behavior on an instinctual level. My confusion just comes from wondering whether or not people have to put on act to behave with a Christ-like discipline or if it becomes innate behavior.

Quincy
October 13th, 2015, 02:30 PM
I don't really understand it, either.

Perhaps we will, eventually.


I have a good friend who is a life-long 'conservative republican', to the point that he really believes whatever the conservative republican spin machine tells him to believe regarding social issues, politics, and economics. I mean he believes it immediately, automatically, and fully. And he believes he believes it, himself, when I can see as plain as day that he believes it simply because he's being told to believe by this group that he has so intently identified himself with.

I know people like that, quite a few. It seems like their party of political allegiance gets a free pass on everything. I've never known any of them to attempt to fact check statements they hear.


I suspect there are some very deep psychological reasons involving his childhood that have something to do with it. But even still, I suspect I would have reacted very differently to those same circumstances. So maybe it's just been written into his DNA. He was coded to be a 'follower' and he just can't help himself. I am certain that he has no idea that he's doing this. And he would be very insulted if I even suggested it to him.

There is some interesting research out there regarding genetic memory. It makes me think that even beliefs can be passed on to children genetically. You often hear people say that a child has his/her dad's temper, or something similar but you rarely hear anyone say that you got your grandpa's political compass, :chuckle: . It could be true.


I don't understand it. But it seems I am seeing more and more of this 'self-identification by external group-think' these days because the media has figured out that this tendency exists in people and can easily be exploited to it's own advantage. As have the republican party. And so they are both exploiting it to their maximum effect and there are apparently a lot of people who are susceptible to it, for whatever reason. But don't bother trying to tell them about it, because they will not hear you, and they will become very insulted by your even suggesting it.

Media outlets are creating witch hunts, it seems. Some people identify as your standard stereotype of what an American is and all the recent changes to society threaten that. The media is just exploiting it. I don't understand the why of it, either.

annabenedetti
October 13th, 2015, 05:24 PM
and meshak agrees
does that ruin your day?

No. Why should it?

annabenedetti
October 13th, 2015, 05:42 PM
Good thread, anna, but it could use a little math. :eek:


I don't like math. :chuckle:

Angel4Truth
October 13th, 2015, 05:48 PM
If we find out identity in Him and on a path following Him and fall, and say start some horrendous sin pattern, again. Can we still find identity in Him? How could we?

Hebrews 7:25 Therefore He is able also to save forever those who draw near to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them.

John 8:36 "So if the Son makes you free, you will be free indeed.

annabenedetti
October 13th, 2015, 05:50 PM
Yes. I see it as an ego thing. Our egos struggle to protect and maintain our idea of ourselves (and about everything else, too) whether they're good, bad, accurate, or absurd. So we have to tame our egos, and be willing to be both ignorant and wrong, to ever really learn anything, especially about ourselves. And people like my friend have a very difficult time doing that. He's not even aware that it's something he needs to do. And because he was abused as a kid, his self-image is very negative and his ego is quite fragile, and so I think he became a dogmatic follower of his self-identified 'clan' because doing so shores up his self-image and fragile ego.

Unfortunately, it also stops him from engaging in the very introspection that could heal the damage that was done to him.

Everyone is so different though, PureX. What's helpful for one person might not do anything at all for another. I don't know if it's always ego. Perhaps some are so broken there's no ego to tame. As you said, your friend's is quite fragile, and so what you see as good for you, being in a stronger place, might not be good for him at this point in his life. Fragile might not get stronger, fragile might shatter, if not handled very delicately.

Jamie Gigliotti
October 13th, 2015, 07:27 PM
Well, I tend to act according to my instincts or conscience. I still don't understand how behavior comes from identity, after reading this. I don't really identify as anything other than human, yet a lot of people think I'm many different things. So I can relate to you what said about psychologists.

It seems like you're saying that a new found intimacy with God can change someone's behavior on an instinctual level. My confusion just comes from wondering whether or not people have to put on act to behave with a Christ-like discipline or if it becomes innate behavior.

We know His disciples by their love, no one acts that well, for long enough, that we can't see who they are.

meshak
October 13th, 2015, 07:33 PM
I believe in Him
I believe I will be forgiven
I believe I must do better

that's the spirit, brother.:)

ok doser
October 14th, 2015, 07:36 AM
I believe in Him
I believe I will be forgiven
I believe I must do better

better than what?

Town Heretic
October 14th, 2015, 07:38 AM
I believe in Him
That's a great place to begin.


I believe I will be forgiven
What do you think the hold-up is?


I believe I must do better
When do you think you'll do good enough?


ok loser
This message is hidden because ok loser is on your ignore list.
Found that right behind my last post here. Hard to tell if it's just a coincidence or he's left some adorable little nugget of wisdom, like an insult to the dead or lawyers or the South or who knows what might have sprouted from that deranged little noggin?

It's like one of those Halloween grab-bags you'd fish for as a kid at the local carnival. Most of the fun was to be had before you opened it and discovered a bunch of worthless crap inside. So I'll just keep his bag/trap shut this way and keep the inevitable disappointment at bay.

Happy Halloween, everyone. :eek:

ok doser
October 14th, 2015, 07:45 AM
ok loser
This message is hidden because ok loser is on your ignore list. Found that right behind my last post here. Hard to tell if it's just a coincidence or he's left some adorable little nugget of wisdom, like an insult to the dead or lawyers or the South or who knows what might have sprouted from that deranged little noggin?

It's like one of those Halloween grab-bags you'd fish for as a kid at the local carnival. Most of the fun was to be had before you opened it and discovered a bunch of worthless crap inside. So I'll just keep his bag/trap shut this way and keep the inevitable disappointment at bay.

Happy Halloween, everyone. :eek:



https://runclubusa.files.wordpress.com/2009/04/obsessive.jpg


:mock: mr obsessive

meshak
October 14th, 2015, 11:05 AM
better than what?

Better than what we have been doing, meaning we should be improving as we get older in all aspect of our lives..

Jesus commands us to be perfect. It is life long endeavor.

ok doser
October 14th, 2015, 11:07 AM
Jesus commands us to be perfect.

won't He be ticked off that you're not?

PureX
October 14th, 2015, 11:15 AM
Everyone is so different though, PureX. What's helpful for one person might not do anything at all for another. I don't know if it's always ego. Perhaps some are so broken there's no ego to tame. As you said, your friend's is quite fragile, and so what you see as good for you, being in a stronger place, might not be good for him at this point in his life. Fragile might not get stronger, fragile might shatter, if not handled very delicately.I have long noticed a commonality among many of the folks I've known over the years that have fallen under this sort of spell, and that is that they were treated very badly growing up. They experienced a lot of 'meanness' from their own parents and siblings, and have a lot of fear and anger in them as a result. And I think the mistreatment also accounts for their tendency to fear, doubt, and in some cases even loath their own individual uniqueness. It's why they so want their 'selves' to be swallowed up by their 'identity-group'.

Jamie Gigliotti
October 15th, 2015, 08:06 AM
I have long noticed a commonality among many of the folks I've known over the years that have fallen under this sort of spell, and that is that they were treated very badly growing up. They experienced a lot of 'meanness' from their own parents and siblings, and have a lot of fear and anger in them as a result. And I think the mistreatment also accounts for their tendency to fear, doubt, and in some cases even loath their own individual uniqueness. It's why they so want their 'selves' to be swallowed up by their 'identity-group'.
I think the longing comes from the need of love and relationship, which God longs to fulfill in us. The trinity, the body of Christ/His Spiritual church as Ravi Zacharias puts it, "Unity and diversity".

Uniqueness is cherished, but also union in love.

PureX
October 15th, 2015, 08:46 AM
I think the longing comes from the need of love and relationship, which God longs to fulfill in us. The trinity, the body of Christ/His Spiritual church as Ravi Zacharias puts it, "Unity and diversity".

Uniqueness is cherished, but also union in love.That may be true. Perhaps the need to identify one's self through a group is a way of creating a new "family" for themselves.

However, keep in mind that this is also an expression of a kind of emotional retardation. As these are adults trying to recreate an illusion of family for themselves, and are doing it by rejecting their adult autonomy and individuality.

It's not a healthy solution.

Jamie Gigliotti
October 15th, 2015, 08:48 AM
That may be true. Perhaps the need to identify one's self through a group is a way of creating a new "family" for themselves.

However, keep in mind that this is also an expression of a kind of emotional retardation. As these are adults trying to recreate an illusion of family for themselves, and are doing it by rejecting their adult autonomy and individuality.

It's not a healthy solution.

True.

patrick jane
October 16th, 2015, 11:44 PM
I believe in Him
I believe I will be forgiven
I believe I must do better

You don't believe in Him if you believe that you can do more and if you believe you WILL be forgiven after all.