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View Full Version : "Kept safe in childbirth"--original meaning



Interplanner
October 11th, 2015, 08:11 PM
Things can sound totally different if we hear what the original people heard.

"women will be saved through childbirth," is thought to be a naive or mysogynist line by Paul. We have to remember how different something can sound to those who first heard it. This line was not originally addressed in the modern age of obstetrics, or of anesthesiology. Nor even of 'natural' midwifery: "That's not pain" said the local Port Wenn midwife to Louisa, when she heard the 'natural' childbirth mother screaming horribly. "That's the woman taking charge of her labor." Louisa was not convinced! (--DOC MARTIN)

It did not mean these "Christian" women would be saved if they just prayed a lot, and ignored modern medicine or midwives both.

It did not mean these women were not Christians until they had had kids.

All those things are horrible readings of the passage, as though Paul was out of his depth and expertise.

The women Timothy lived around kept "Diana" talisman (-woman!) to protect them with superstitions through childbirth. Diana in 1st century Asia Minor was a cult. It was a nature religion. It was similar to the goddess Artemis in Acts 20. It was a fertility religion, too, so these poor women were emotionally invested in her, whether married or not. If they were pregnant, it was because of Diana; if they were afraid of childbirth, they were to adore Diana and keep the manifold-breasted icon of her nearby or hold it during birth.

All Paul meant was that, now that these ladies were Christians, they did not need to 'trust' in Diana about childbirth. They would be kept as safe as they could be apart from all that, by having faith in God, and growing in love, holiness and discreetness.

This follows a historical reminder that the woman Eve let herself be deceived. The Diana cult put women on a pedestal as much as the women put it on a pedestal. Paul meant that the Christian women should cease practicing any superstition that had to do with Diana, because God is the giver and protector of life. The restrictions Paul put on women apply more in such a case than anywhere else. And the followers of the lesbian cult were not that far away either.

"Be kept safe..." is the best rendering; no common sense medical practice that would make either mother or child safe would have been ignored.


source: J. Zens on childbirth superstition behind "women will be 'saved' through childbirth" in Timothy. SEARCHING TOGETHER.

RBBI
October 12th, 2015, 07:18 AM
When I read that, this is what I heard. Women (the soul) are saved via birthing the Son. Peace

Interplanner
October 12th, 2015, 07:29 AM
When I read that, this is what I heard. Women (the soul) are saved via birthing the Son. Peace



Then you read "code" or symbolism that is not there. It means normal women in their normal childbirth will be safe in those events, not because of superstitions about a fertility goddess, but because God is the giver of life. It is not about justification by faith.

RBBI
October 12th, 2015, 07:33 AM
Yes, I got your point. Did you get mine? Peace

Interplanner
October 12th, 2015, 07:51 AM
Yes, you don't read normal syntax and grammar. You think everything in the Biblical text is code and symbol.

RBBI
October 12th, 2015, 07:58 AM
Yes, you don't read normal syntax and grammar. You think everything in the Biblical text is code and symbol.

It's not a code, however we are told the HG teaches comparing spiritual to SPIRITUAL. So yes, it does have symbolic meaning all through it. The Word is Spirit, written to our Spirit. The heel catcher tries to bring it down to earthly understanding, continually. Peace

Interplanner
October 12th, 2015, 08:40 AM
No, the Spirit wants it to be understood as normally as possible.

Look at Acts 12:9 for a moment. Peter is actually being lead out of a prison "but he had no idea that what the angel was doing was actually happening; he thought he was seeing a vision." This passage clears all the fog about finding "spiritual" meaning when it is not there, or relegating normal meaning to the work of Satan. Because it is a person in a miraculous event having complete skepticism that it was that.

It is the normal meaning of I Tim 2 about childbirth, that the Christian woman no longer needs to adore Diana to be safe in the event. The safety comes from God. If there is a symbol it is that Diana is tempting Christian woman like Satan did (because the passage started about the topic of women leading men and temptation).

But that is not the same as Satan 'ruining' the passage by making it have normal meaning to a curious and questioning human mind. We are to love God with all our mind.

RBBI
October 12th, 2015, 03:52 PM
No, the Spirit wants you to take on the mind of Christ. Peace

Danoh
October 12th, 2015, 04:16 PM
Interplanner and his ever screwy, books based notions about the passages again.

Paul's point is from within Scripture's own perspective - its called "the things of God" for a reason.

In its scope, setting and context, Paul's point is the various God given roles - how that each will do well to follow God's design as to each's respective role.

Put away your overreliance on your endless "books about," Interplanner, all you need do is to believe the truth that is 2 Tim. 3:16-17, by actually relying on what that passage asserts.

As with all themes of importance; this is a theme often found throughout Romans thru Philemon. There is more than plenty of "research" right there - in - The - Book!

Interplanner
October 12th, 2015, 06:09 PM
Interplanner and his ever screwy, books based notions about the passages again.

Paul's point is from within Scripture's own perspective - its called "the things of God" for a reason.

In its scope, setting and context, Paul's point is the various God given roles - how that each will do well to follow God's design as to each's respective role.

Put away your overreliance on your endless "books about," Interplanner, all you need do is to believe the truth that is 2 Tim. 3:16-17, by actually relying on what that passage asserts.

As with all themes of importance; this is a theme often found throughout Romans thru Philemon. There is more than plenty of "research" right there - in - The - Book!



No there is not. You're just jealous or slothful. It is, and should be, fascinating to find out what superstitions there were about Diana and why they targeted women.

It's not my fault all the books you read are mush.

Likewise Ps 23's 'leads me beside still waters.' That is not the image at all as we know from checking into tending sheep in an arid site. It means to 'get them past toxic waters.' Sheep have no trouble drinking moving water. But they have no sense about brackish water until it is too late.

Interplanner
October 12th, 2015, 06:17 PM
No, the Spirit wants you to take on the mind of Christ. Peace


What exactly would that look like? why do you have a problem with something that defends the Christian message against a pagan cult like Diana and all her superstitions about reproduction? The mind of Christ for those ladies would be to not be "in charge" and to accept the fact that one gender difference is susceptibility to temptation. Not to mention God is the protector and grantor of lives.

The Diana cult put women above men, and put lesbian relations above male-female, because they were female. Having children was then an inevitable chore, a suffering from which they needed Diana's protection.

Sounds to me like you could use a mind, develop it, and then serve God with it.

RBBI
October 12th, 2015, 07:06 PM
What exactly would that look like? why do you have a problem with something that defends the Christian message against a pagan cult like Diana and all her superstitions about reproduction? The mind of Christ for those ladies would be to not be "in charge" and to accept the fact that one gender difference is susceptibility to temptation. Not to mention God is the protector and grantor of lives.

The Diana cult put women above men, and put lesbian relations above male-female, because they were female. Having children was then an inevitable chore, a suffering from which they needed Diana's protection.

Sounds to me like you could use a mind, develop it, and then serve God with it.

Sounds to me like your attitude is probably similar to the reasons they worshipped Diana in the first place.

Interplanner
October 13th, 2015, 06:48 AM
Sounds to me like your attitude is probably similar to the reasons they worshipped Diana in the first place.



Why? I have no idea how your form your thinking.