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OCTOBER23
October 11th, 2015, 05:17 PM
Isaiah 66:2 For all those things hath mine hand made,

and all those things have been, saith the LORD:

Job 9:8 Who alone spreadeth out the heavens,

and treadeth upon the waves of the sea.

-----------------------------------------------

1-This thread is to make a cogent or compelling presentation

for the Definition of the Comforter/Holy Spirit that Jesus sent to

the Apostles.

2- Question: Was the Spirit of God a Separate Personage or part of the Lord God,

who said that HE set up the Seas ?

Genesis 1:2 And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Isaiah 48:12
Listen to Me, O Jacob,
And Israel, My called:
I am He, I am the First,
I am also the Last.
13 Indeed My hand has laid the foundation of the earth,
And My right hand has stretched out the heavens;
When I call to them,
They stand up together.
=====================================

OCTOBER23
October 11th, 2015, 05:29 PM
People were stressed in their SPIRIT....

The SPIRIT seems to be their Minds or put in their minds and cannot be a separate Personage

but must be some form of Communication or Thought Processor.

Job 21:4 As for me, is my complaint to man? and if it were so, why should not my spirit be troubled?
Psalms 31:5 Into thine hand I commit my spirit: thou hast redeemed me, O LORD God of truth.
Psalms 77:3 I remembered God, and was troubled: I complained, and my spirit was overwhelmed. Selah.
Psalms 77:6 I call to remembrance my song in the night: I commune with mine own heart: and my spirit made diligent search.
Psalms 142:3 When my spirit was overwhelmed within me, then thou knewest my path. In the way wherein I walked have they privily laid a snare for me.

Exodus 31:3 And I have filled him with the spirit of God, in wisdom, and in understanding, and in knowledge, and in all manner of workmanship,

Exodus 35:31 And he hath filled him with the spirit of God, in wisdom, in understanding, and in knowledge, and in all manner of workmanship;

Ask Mr. Religion
October 11th, 2015, 06:30 PM
Yes, just what we need...another Trinitarian thread. After all, the topic is scarcely seen around these parts. :AMR:

The Trinity is an essential of the faith we hold dear. Deny it and one has no warrant to the claim to being a Christian. It is not debatable. "This is the catholic {universal} faith, which except a man believe faithfully, he cannot be saved" (see Athanasian Creed: http://www.reformed.org/documents/athanasian.html).

Asked and answered by the church militant about fifteen hundred years ago.

AMR

patrick jane
October 11th, 2015, 06:36 PM
Isaiah 66:2 For all those things hath mine hand made,

and all those things have been, saith the LORD:

Job 9:8 Who alone spreadeth out the heavens,

and treadeth upon the waves of the sea.

-----------------------------------------------

1-This thread is to make a cogent or compelling presentation

for the Definition of the Comforter/Holy Spirit that Jesus sent to

the Apostles.

2- Question: Was the Spirit of God a Separate Personage or part of the Lord God,

who said that HE set up the Seas ?

Genesis 1:2 And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Isaiah 48:12
Listen to Me, O Jacob,
And Israel, My called:
I am He, I am the First,
I am also the Last.
13 Indeed My hand has laid the foundation of the earth,
And My right hand has stretched out the heavens;
When I call to them,
They stand up together.
=====================================


John 1:3 KJV - Colossians 1:16 KJV and 17

They were there

Lazy afternoon
October 11th, 2015, 07:18 PM
Yes, just what we need...another Trinitarian thread. After all, the topic is scarcely seen around these parts. :AMR:

The Trinity is an essential of the faith we hold dear. Deny it and one has no warrant to the claim to being a Christian. It is not debatable. "This is the catholic {universal} faith, which except a man believe faithfully, he cannot be saved" (see Athanasian Creed: http://www.reformed.org/documents/athanasian.html).

Asked and answered by the church militant about fifteen hundred years ago.

AMR

Why are the words of Jesus not good enough for you?

Where did Jesus or the Apostles teach such rubbish as the creed?

LA

daqq
October 12th, 2015, 06:25 AM
Why are the words of Jesus not good enough for you?

Where did Jesus or the Apostles teach such rubbish as the creed?

LA

Once there was a man who ordered a pizza from a popular establishment after seeing one of their advertisements proclaiming that all of their pizza's were made only with "Real" cheese. After about an half hour wait his anticipated pizza with "Real" cheese arrived with a knock at the front door. After paying and tipping the delivery person he shut the door and sat down to dinner, said his thanksgiving, and began to enjoy his pizza made only with "Real" cheese. Suddenly a still small voice whispered in his mind: "That is not the real cheese that you have been led to believe it is." And with another taste he realized that indeed he had been duped with phony cheese on his pizza. He immediately rose up in anger and called the pizza place so as to get to the bottom of the matter. The pizza shop told him that the advertisement was completely on the up and up as the advertisement clearly stated in fine print at the bottom of his TV screen the fact that the pizza shop uses only "Real" Brand cheese. It seems "Real" was only the registered trademark for the brand of synthetic cheese the shop was using to make all of their pizza.

Seems the same thing has happened in modern times with so-called Christianity. "Christian" has become nothing more than a trademark name for a large conglomerate-establishment that calls itself the one true world-wide church. If you want to become part of their establishment you must adhere to their dogmas and creeds or you cannot be called by the names and titles they have usurped from the Scripture and claimed for themselves. :chuckle:

keypurr
October 14th, 2015, 08:12 PM
Once there was a man who ordered a pizza from a popular establishment after seeing one of their advertisements proclaiming that all of their pizza's were made only with "Real" cheese. After about an half hour wait his anticipated pizza with "Real" cheese arrived with a knock at the front door. After paying and tipping the delivery person he shut the door and sat down to dinner, said his thanksgiving, and began to enjoy his pizza made only with "Real" cheese. Suddenly a still small voice whispered in his mind: "That is not the real cheese that you have been led to believe it is." And with another taste he realized that indeed he had been duped with phony cheese on his pizza. He immediately rose up in anger and called the pizza place so as to get to the bottom of the matter. The pizza shop told him that the advertisement was completely on the up and up as the advertisement clearly stated in fine print at the bottom of his TV screen the fact that the pizza shop uses only "Real" Brand cheese. It seems "Real" was only the registered trademark for the brand of synthetic cheese the shop was using to make all of their pizza.

Seems the same thing has happened in modern times with so-called Christianity. "Christian" has become nothing more than a trademark name for a large conglomerate-establishment that calls itself the one true world-wide church. If you want to become part of their establishment you must adhere to their dogmas and creeds or you cannot be called by the names and titles they have usurped from the Scripture and claimed for themselves. :chuckle:


Excellent post.

patrick jane
October 14th, 2015, 08:28 PM
Excellent post.

Keypurr, He Is YOUR Triune God !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

patrick jane
October 14th, 2015, 08:31 PM
Why are the words of Jesus not good enough for you?

Where did Jesus or the Apostles teach such rubbish as the creed?

LA

You should tone down the anti-trinity words of your reprobate mind. It wasn't taught as a "creed"

jamie
October 14th, 2015, 09:10 PM
You should tone down the anti-trinity words of your reprobate mind. It wasn't taught as a "creed"


It was the Holy Spirit that fathered Jesus.


Now the birth of Jesus Christ was as follows: After His mother Mary was betrothed to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Spirit. (Matthew 1:18 NKJV)

But while he thought about these things, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream, saying, “Joseph, son of David, do not be afraid to take to you Mary your wife, for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit. (Matthew 1:20 NKJV)

patrick jane
October 14th, 2015, 09:13 PM
It was the Holy Spirit that fathered Jesus.


Now the birth of Jesus Christ was as follows: After His mother Mary was betrothed to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Spirit. (Matthew 1:18 NKJV)

But while he thought about these things, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream, saying, “Joseph, son of David, do not be afraid to take to you Mary your wife, for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit. (Matthew 1:20 NKJV)

The Word was made flesh, yes. the 3 are 1.

John 1:14 KJV -

jamie
October 14th, 2015, 09:30 PM
The Word was made flesh, yes. the 3 are 1.


So you agree that the Holy Spirit was Jesus' father?

Lazy afternoon
October 15th, 2015, 04:28 PM
You should tone down the anti-trinity words of your reprobate mind. It wasn't taught as a "creed"

When you grow up and test the words of the creeds against the words of the Bible then you will cease to peddle the lies of the RCC and the world.

LA

Elia
November 17th, 2015, 01:03 AM
Bs"d

"Hear Israel, Y-H-W-H is our God, Y-H-W-H is ONE!" Deut 6:4

"Listen, Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is One" Holman Christian Standard Bible

"Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one." English Standard Version

"Hear, O Israel! The LORD is our God, the LORD is one!" New American Standard Bible

"Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one." New International Version

"Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one!" New King James Version"





"And one of the scribes came up and heard them disputing with one another, and seeing that he answered them well, asked him, "Which commandment is the first of all?" Jesus answered, "The first is, `Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, THE LORD IS ONE; and you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind, and with all your strength.' The second is this, `You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' There is no other commandment greater than these." And the scribe said to him, "You are right, Teacher; you have truly said that HE IS ONE, and there is no other but he; and to love him with all the heart, and with all the understanding, and with all the strength, and to love one's neighbor as oneself, is much more than all whole burnt offerings and sacrifices." And when Jesus saw that he answered wisely, he said to him, "You are not far from the kingdom of God."" Mark 12:28-34 Revised Standard Version

“The most important one,” answered Jesus, “is this: ‘Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one." .... "You are right in saying that God is one" New International Version

"Here is the most important one. Moses said, 'Israel, listen to me. The Lord is our God. The Lord is one." .... "You are right in saying that God is one." New International Readers Version

"Jesus answered: Listen, Israel! The Lord our God, The Lord is One." .... "You have correctly said that He is One," Holman Christian Standard Bible

"Jesus answered, The first is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God, the Lord is one:" .... "thou hast well said that he is one;" American Standard Version

"Jesus answered him, “The first of all the commandments is: ‘Hear, O Israel, the LORD our God, the LORD is one." New King James Version

"Jesus answered, "The most important is, 'Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one" .... "You have truly said that he is one," English Standard Version

"Jesus said, "The first in importance is, 'Listen, Israel: The Lord your God is one;" .... "A wonderful answer, Teacher! So lucid and accurate—that God is one" The Message

"‘Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one." .... “You are right in saying that God is one" New International Version





"Now an intermediary implies more than one; but GOD IS ONE." Gal 3:20 Revised Standard Version

"Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but GOD IS ONE" King James Version

"A mediator, however, implies more than one party; but GOD IS ONE." New International Version

"Now an intermediary implies more than one, but GOD IS ONE." English Standard Version

"Now a mediator is not a mediator of one; but GOD IS ONE." American Standard Version

"and the mediator is not of one, and GOD IS ONE" Youngs Literal Translation





"You believe that GOD IS ONE; you do well." James 2:19 Revised Standard Version

"thou -- thou dost believe that GOD IS ONE; thou dost well," Youngs Literal translation

"Thou believest that GOD IS ONE; thou doest well:" American Standard Version

"You believe that GOD IS ONE; you do well." Holman Christian Standard Bible.

"*Thou* believest that GOD IS ONE. Thou doest well." Darby Translation.

"It’s good that you believe that GOD IS ONE." Common English Bible

"You believe that GOD IS ONE; you do well." English Standard Version

"You believe that GOD IS ONE; you do well." Amplified Bible

"You believe that GOD IS ONE You do well;" New American Standard Bible



So the Bible teaches clearly that God is ONE.



"And J-e-h-o-v-a-h shall be King over all the earth: in that day shall J-e-h-o-v-a-h be one, and his name one." Zach 14:9 American Standard Version

"And the LORD shall be King over all the earth. In that day it shall be— “The LORD is one, And His name one." New King James Version

"And the LORD will be king over all the earth. On that day the LORD will be one and his name one." English Standard Version

"And the Lord shall be King over all the earth; in that day the Lord shall be one [in the recognition and worship of men] and His name one." Amplified Bible

.
.
.

Elia
November 19th, 2015, 12:54 AM
The Trinity is an essential of the faith we hold dear. Deny it and one has no warrant to the claim to being a Christian. It is not debatable. "

Bs"d

Why do Christians hang on to a doctrine which is nowhere to be found in the Bible, and which contradicts the Biblical doctrine that God is one?

.
.
.
.

intojoy
November 19th, 2015, 02:14 AM
Bs"d



Why do Christians hang on to a doctrine which is nowhere to be found in the Bible, and which contradicts the Biblical doctrine that God is one?



.

.

.

.




Why not?
Gurl please!

God's Truth
November 19th, 2015, 11:13 AM
Isaiah 66:2 For all those things hath mine hand made,

and all those things have been, saith the LORD:

Job 9:8 Who alone spreadeth out the heavens,

and treadeth upon the waves of the sea.

-----------------------------------------------

1-This thread is to make a cogent or compelling presentation

for the Definition of the Comforter/Holy Spirit that Jesus sent to

the Apostles.

2- Question: Was the Spirit of God a Separate Personage or part of the Lord God,

who said that HE set up the Seas ?

Genesis 1:2 And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Isaiah 48:12
Listen to Me, O Jacob,
And Israel, My called:
I am He, I am the First,
I am also the Last.
13 Indeed My hand has laid the foundation of the earth,
And My right hand has stretched out the heavens;
When I call to them,
They stand up together.
=====================================


There is only one God, and He is the Father.

God the Father is invisible He is fire.

Jesus is God the Father with a body.

God's Truth
November 19th, 2015, 11:15 AM
Yes, just what we need...another Trinitarian thread. After all, the topic is scarcely seen around these parts. :AMR:

The Trinity is an essential of the faith we hold dear. Deny it and one has no warrant to the claim to being a Christian. It is not debatable. "This is the catholic {universal} faith, which except a man believe faithfully, he cannot be saved" (see Athanasian Creed: http://www.reformed.org/documents/athanasian.html).

Asked and answered by the church militant about fifteen hundred years ago.

AMR

Any teaching that makes a person kill should be questioned.

God's Truth
November 19th, 2015, 11:19 AM
Bs"d

"Hear Israel, Y-H-W-H is our God, Y-H-W-H is ONE!" Deut 6:4

"Listen, Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is One" Holman Christian Standard Bible

"Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one." English Standard Version

"Hear, O Israel! The LORD is our God, the LORD is one!" New American Standard Bible

"Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one." New International Version

"Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one!" New King James Version"





"And one of the scribes came up and heard them disputing with one another, and seeing that he answered them well, asked him, "Which commandment is the first of all?" Jesus answered, "The first is, `Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, THE LORD IS ONE; and you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind, and with all your strength.' The second is this, `You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' There is no other commandment greater than these." And the scribe said to him, "You are right, Teacher; you have truly said that HE IS ONE, and there is no other but he; and to love him with all the heart, and with all the understanding, and with all the strength, and to love one's neighbor as oneself, is much more than all whole burnt offerings and sacrifices." And when Jesus saw that he answered wisely, he said to him, "You are not far from the kingdom of God."" Mark 12:28-34 Revised Standard Version

“The most important one,” answered Jesus, “is this: ‘Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one." .... "You are right in saying that God is one" New International Version

"Here is the most important one. Moses said, 'Israel, listen to me. The Lord is our God. The Lord is one." .... "You are right in saying that God is one." New International Readers Version

"Jesus answered: Listen, Israel! The Lord our God, The Lord is One." .... "You have correctly said that He is One," Holman Christian Standard Bible

"Jesus answered, The first is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God, the Lord is one:" .... "thou hast well said that he is one;" American Standard Version

"Jesus answered him, “The first of all the commandments is: ‘Hear, O Israel, the LORD our God, the LORD is one." New King James Version

"Jesus answered, "The most important is, 'Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one" .... "You have truly said that he is one," English Standard Version

"Jesus said, "The first in importance is, 'Listen, Israel: The Lord your God is one;" .... "A wonderful answer, Teacher! So lucid and accurate—that God is one" The Message

"‘Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one." .... “You are right in saying that God is one" New International Version





"Now an intermediary implies more than one; but GOD IS ONE." Gal 3:20 Revised Standard Version

"Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but GOD IS ONE" King James Version

"A mediator, however, implies more than one party; but GOD IS ONE." New International Version

"Now an intermediary implies more than one, but GOD IS ONE." English Standard Version

"Now a mediator is not a mediator of one; but GOD IS ONE." American Standard Version

"and the mediator is not of one, and GOD IS ONE" Youngs Literal Translation





"You believe that GOD IS ONE; you do well." James 2:19 Revised Standard Version

"thou -- thou dost believe that GOD IS ONE; thou dost well," Youngs Literal translation

"Thou believest that GOD IS ONE; thou doest well:" American Standard Version

"You believe that GOD IS ONE; you do well." Holman Christian Standard Bible.

"*Thou* believest that GOD IS ONE. Thou doest well." Darby Translation.

"It’s good that you believe that GOD IS ONE." Common English Bible

"You believe that GOD IS ONE; you do well." English Standard Version

"You believe that GOD IS ONE; you do well." Amplified Bible

"You believe that GOD IS ONE You do well;" New American Standard Bible



So the Bible teaches clearly that God is ONE.



"And J-e-h-o-v-a-h shall be King over all the earth: in that day shall J-e-h-o-v-a-h be one, and his name one." Zach 14:9 American Standard Version

"And the LORD shall be King over all the earth. In that day it shall be— “The LORD is one, And His name one." New King James Version

"And the LORD will be king over all the earth. On that day the LORD will be one and his name one." English Standard Version

"And the Lord shall be King over all the earth; in that day the Lord shall be one [in the recognition and worship of men] and His name one." Amplified Bible

.
.
.


There is only One God, and He is the Father.

Jesus is that One God and Father come in the flesh as a Son of Man.

God's Truth
November 19th, 2015, 11:20 AM
Bs"d

Why do Christians hang on to a doctrine which is nowhere to be found in the Bible, and which contradicts the Biblical doctrine that God is one?

.
.
.
.


The trinity doctrine is false; however, there is three, and they are one and the same.

intojoy
November 19th, 2015, 07:12 PM
The trinity doctrine is false; however, there is three, and they are one and the same.

http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/11/19/86b58b4db7221b38bedda2bc576299bf.jpg


Yo doctrine

Oh how I love GoofsTruth!

disturbo
November 19th, 2015, 07:20 PM
ddddd

God's Truth
November 19th, 2015, 10:26 PM
I agree fully. I agree that three are one several ways but they aren't coequal. I accept the deity of Christ but can't accept the trinity "the way it is taught." The Holy Spirit can be Christ or an angel who all have connections with the seven spirits of God. I'll never accept something so easily debunked.

The Bible clearly tells us there are three.

There are three.

However, the three are one and the same.

Jesus is God the Father come in the flesh as a Man.

For sure the Man in the flesh is not as great as the Father in heaven.

Jesus is no longer a Man in the flesh. Jesus went back to heaven with the same glory he had before he came.

I believe Jesus has always been God the Father with a body.

In heaven before coming to earth Jesus had a Spiritual body, the kind of body we will receive at the resurrection. Jesus gave up that body and came to earth with a flesh body. Then when Jesus ascended back to heaven, he received his Spiritual Body again. Jesus is the First and the Last.

Do you think you can understand what I said?

As for the Holy Spirit, the Holy Spirit is God the Father; the Holy Spirit is Christ.

intojoy
November 19th, 2015, 10:40 PM
The Bible clearly tells us there are three.

There are three.

However, the three are one and the same.

Jesus is God the Father come in the flesh as a Man.

For sure the Man in the flesh is not as great as the Father in heaven.

Jesus is no longer a Man in the flesh. Jesus went back to heaven with the same glory he had before he came.

I believe Jesus has always been God the Father with a body.

In heaven before coming to earth Jesus had a Spiritual body, the kind of body we will receive at the resurrection. Jesus gave up that body and came to earth with a flesh body. Then when Jesus ascended back to heaven, he received his Spiritual Body again. Jesus is the First and the Last.

Do you think you can understand what I said?

As for the Holy Spirit, the Holy Spirit is God the Father; the Holy Spirit is Christ.

Too bad you lack the ability to prove that with scripture

Oh how I love Goof's word

God's Truth
November 19th, 2015, 10:43 PM
Too bad you lack the ability to prove that with scripture

Oh how I love Goof's word

Of course, I can prove it with scripture. Are you interested?

keypurr
November 19th, 2015, 11:18 PM
Keypurr, He Is YOUR Triune God !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I do not have a Triune God friend, I have the same God Christ had.

intojoy
November 20th, 2015, 12:06 AM
Of course, I can prove it with scripture. Are you interested?


I know you can't because I can and its a good 72 hour lecture

Oh how I love Goofs Word!

God's Truth
November 20th, 2015, 12:38 AM
I know you can't because I can and its a good 72 hour lecture

Oh how I love Goofs Word!

Are you interested?

intojoy
November 20th, 2015, 12:48 AM
Are you interested?


Oh how I love the Word of Goof!

God's Truth
November 20th, 2015, 02:22 AM
Oh how I love the Word of Goof!




Jesus is no longer a Man in the flesh.
1 Corinthians 10:44 it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.

Jesus’ flesh is not like the flesh we have, since he does not age like we do.


Jesus went back to heaven with the same glory he had before he came.
John 17:5 And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.

Since we know Jesus had a body, and Jesus says for God to glorify him in His presence with the same glory…we can see that Jesus had a body in heaven before coming to earth.

Philippians 3:21 who, by the power that enables him to bring everything under his control, will transform our lowly bodies so that they will be like his glorious body.




I believe Jesus has always been God the Father with a body.
God made the plan for salvation to be through Jesus, and God made that plan before He created the world. God made Himself a body, the glorious Spiritual body of Jesus the Man First, and then made everything through Jesus.

Colossians 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. 16For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities-- all things have been created through Him and for Him.…




In heaven before coming to earth Jesus had a Spiritual body, the kind of body we will receive at the resurrection.
1 John 3:2 Dear friends, now we are children of God, and what we will be has not yet been made known. But we know that when Christ appears, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is.

Revelation 22:13 I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End.


Jesus gave up that body and came to earth with a flesh body.
Philippians 2:7 rather, he made himself nothing by taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness.

Hebrews 10:5 Therefore, when Christ came into the world, he said: "Sacrifice and offering you did not desire, but a body you prepared for me;

intojoy
November 20th, 2015, 02:38 AM
Nice try but all wrong

God's Truth
November 20th, 2015, 02:39 AM
Nice try but all wrong

Prove it.

Elia
November 20th, 2015, 03:09 AM
There is only one God, and He is the Father.

God the Father is invisible He is fire.

Jesus is God the Father with a body.

Bs"d

He didn't think so:

If anybody says the Christian messiah is the same as Y-H-W-H then you are stuck with the fact that Y-H-W-H is his own son and at the same time his own father.



Then you are stuck with the fact that when the Christian messiah prays to his father, Y-H-W-H is praying to himself.



Luke 22:41-42: “and He knelt down and began to pray, saying, "Father, if You are willing, remove this cup from Me; yet not My will, but Yours be done."

So here Y-H-W-H has a different will than himself???



Even in heaven the Christian messiah is subjected to the Father, according to Corinthians 15:28, Matthew 20:23, Fillipens 2:9, and others.

So Y-H-W-H is subjected to himself???



When the Christian messiah was hanging at the cross, he cried out: “My God, my God, why did you forsake me?” Matthew 27:46

So Y-H-W-H forsook himself???



Collossians 3:1; “set your hearts on things above, where Christ is seated at the right hand of God.”

Y-H-W-H is sitting at his own right hand???



Y-H-W-H died at the cross, slaughtered by his own creatures?

If so, who resurrected him?



Remember there is only one God: Y-H-W-H who IS one.


"For all people will walk every one in the name of his god, and we will walk in the name of Y-H-W-H our God for ever and ever." Micah 4:5

intojoy
November 20th, 2015, 03:09 AM
Prove it.


72 hours?

Oh how I love the Word of Goof!

Elia
November 20th, 2015, 03:11 AM
The trinity doctrine is false; however, there is three, and they are one and the same.

Bs"d

One is one, and three is three. Make up your mind.


"For all people will walk every one in the name of his god, and we will walk in the name of Y-H-W-H our God for ever and ever." Micah 4:5

Elia
November 20th, 2015, 03:14 AM
I agree fully. I agree that three are one

Bs"d

One is one, and three is three.

"Woe to those who call evil good and good evil,
who put darkness for light and light for darkness,
who put bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter."
Isaiah 5:20

WOE TO THOSE WHO CALL THREE ONE AND ONE THREE!!



"For all people will walk every one in the name of his god, and we will walk in the name of Y-H-W-H our God for ever and ever." Micah 4:5

Elia
November 20th, 2015, 03:22 AM
The Bible clearly tells us there are three.

There are three.

Bs"d

Please tell me where the Bible says so.

In the mean time I'll show you where the Bible says there is one:

"Know therefore this day, and consider it in your heart, that Y-H-W-H, he is God in heaven above, and upon the earth beneath; there is no other." Deuteronomy 4:39

"See now that I, even I, am He, and there is no god with me." Deuteronomy..32:39

"I am He, before Me no god was created, neither shall there be after Me." Isaiah 43:10

"Thus saith Y-H-W-H, the King of Israel and his redeemer, Y-H-W-H of hosts, I am the first, and I am the last, and beside Me there is no god." Isaiah 44:6

"I am the LORD, and there is none else." Isaiah 45:18
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disturbo
November 20th, 2015, 04:48 AM
dddddd

Elia
November 20th, 2015, 05:49 AM
Bs"d

Please tell me where the Bible says so.

In the mean time I'll show you where the Bible says there is one:

"Know therefore this day, and consider it in your heart, that Y-H-W-H, he is God in heaven above, and upon the earth beneath; there is no other." Deuteronomy 4:39

"See now that I, even I, am He, and there is no god with me." Deuteronomy..32:39

"I am He, before Me no god was created, neither shall there be after Me." Isaiah 43:10

"Thus saith Y-H-W-H, the King of Israel and his redeemer, Y-H-W-H of hosts, I am the first, and I am the last, and beside Me there is no god." Isaiah 44:6

"I am the LORD, and there is none else." Isaiah 45:18

Bs"d

Surprising as it may be, in the New Testament there is also only one God who is one. Look for this fact at the following verses: Mark 12:29-34. Here Jesus himself, when asked what is the first commandment, quotes Deuteronomy 6:4: "Hear Israel, the Lord our God is one Lord." And in verse 32 he is answered: "There is one God, and there is no other than He", upon which Jesus replies: "You are not far from the kingdom of God."

So also for Jesus there clearly is one God who is one.

And what about Paul, who wrote more than half of all the books of the New Testament, what does he think about it?

Romans 3:30: "Seeing it is one God, …"

I Corinthians 8:4: "We know that an idol is nothing in the world and that there is no other God than one."

idem verse 6: "But to us there is but one God …"

Ephesians 4:6; "One God and father of all, …"

I Timothy 2:5; "For there is one God …"

And look what James says in James 2:19; "You believe that there is one God, and you do well."

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God's Truth
November 20th, 2015, 11:55 AM
72 hours?

Oh how I love the Word of Goof!

I have no idea what point you are trying to make.

God's Truth
November 20th, 2015, 11:56 AM
Bs"d

He didn't think so:

If anybody says the Christian messiah is the same as Y-H-W-H then you are stuck with the fact that Y-H-W-H is his own son and at the same time his own father.



Then you are stuck with the fact that when the Christian messiah prays to his father, Y-H-W-H is praying to himself.



Luke 22:41-42: “and He knelt down and began to pray, saying, "Father, if You are willing, remove this cup from Me; yet not My will, but Yours be done."

So here Y-H-W-H has a different will than himself???



Even in heaven the Christian messiah is subjected to the Father, according to Corinthians 15:28, Matthew 20:23, Fillipens 2:9, and others.

So Y-H-W-H is subjected to himself???



When the Christian messiah was hanging at the cross, he cried out: “My God, my God, why did you forsake me?” Matthew 27:46

So Y-H-W-H forsook himself???



Collossians 3:1; “set your hearts on things above, where Christ is seated at the right hand of God.”

Y-H-W-H is sitting at his own right hand???



Y-H-W-H died at the cross, slaughtered by his own creatures?

If so, who resurrected him?



Remember there is only one God: Y-H-W-H who IS one.


"For all people will walk every one in the name of his god, and we will walk in the name of Y-H-W-H our God for ever and ever." Micah 4:5

There are three, and the three are one and the same.

God the Father did not pretend to come to earth as a Man, He really did come to earth as a Man.

God's Truth
November 20th, 2015, 11:58 AM
Bs"d

One is one, and three is three. Make up your mind.


"For all people will walk every one in the name of his god, and we will walk in the name of Y-H-W-H our God for ever and ever." Micah 4:5

There is one.

God the Father shows Himself as a Son, and also is a Spirit, in which He sends out without limit.

God's Truth
November 20th, 2015, 12:01 PM
Bs"d

One is one, and three is three.

"Woe to those who call evil good and good evil,
who put darkness for light and light for darkness,
who put bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter."
Isaiah 5:20

WOE TO THOSE WHO CALL THREE ONE AND ONE THREE!!



"For all people will walk every one in the name of his god, and we will walk in the name of Y-H-W-H our God for ever and ever." Micah 4:5

The Almighty God can come as a Man to show us the way, and He did.

God's Truth
November 20th, 2015, 12:03 PM
Bs"d

Please tell me where the Bible says so.

In the mean time I'll show you where the Bible says there is one:

"Know therefore this day, and consider it in your heart, that Y-H-W-H, he is God in heaven above, and upon the earth beneath; there is no other." Deuteronomy 4:39

"See now that I, even I, am He, and there is no god with me." Deuteronomy..32:39

"I am He, before Me no god was created, neither shall there be after Me." Isaiah 43:10

"Thus saith Y-H-W-H, the King of Israel and his redeemer, Y-H-W-H of hosts, I am the first, and I am the last, and beside Me there is no god." Isaiah 44:6

"I am the LORD, and there is none else." Isaiah 45:18
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Does the Bible talk about God the Father?

Yes.

Does the Bible talk about His Holy Spirit?

Yes.

Does God say they will call the child, the Son 'Father', 'God', and 'Prince'?

Yes.

See Isaiah 9:6.

God's Truth
November 20th, 2015, 12:05 PM
How many is that?

God's Truth
November 20th, 2015, 12:06 PM
Sometimes I should read peoples reply 4-5 times to make sure I'm understanding what they mean. Everybody expresses themselves differently. I know what I believe and you never know. You might even be right who the Holy Spirit is but to me the evidence points to the Seven Spirits of God being Archangels. The Holy Spirit is a combination of these, angels, or even Christ Himself. They are all within the Seven Spirits of God.

If you want to talk more about the seven Spirits, let's do that.

However, the Holy Spirit is God and is the Christ.

Ezra 7:10
November 20th, 2015, 12:07 PM
As a person who believes in the trinity and the scriptures, I am appalled at the clear misrepresentation of this important doctrine. Of course any one reading the Bible sees that there is one eternal, infinite, sovereign, wrathful, loving, Jealous God. However, it is also clear that God subsists in three persons. These persons are distinct from each other while sharing in the divine perfections and nature. In fact, Christianity is built upon this formula, which can be clearly seen in Matthew 28:19-20. We are to baptize people in the name (singular) of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit (three persons).

God's Truth
November 20th, 2015, 12:10 PM
As a person who believes in the trinity and the scriptures, I am appalled at the clear misrepresentation of this important doctrine. Of course any one reading the Bible sees that there is one eternal, infinite, sovereign, wrathful, loving, Jealous God. However, it is also clear that God subsists in three persons. These persons are distinct from each other while sharing in the divine perfections and nature. In fact, Christianity is built upon this formula, which can be clearly seen in Matthew 28:19-20. We are to baptize people in the name (singular) of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit (three persons).

The trinity doctrine says they are separate and different, as you just did.

There is NOTHING different about the Father and the Son.

There is NOTHING separate about the Father and the Son.

How can you make three different and separate Gods?

intojoy
November 20th, 2015, 01:18 PM
I have no idea what point you are trying to make.


Oh how I love the Word of Goof!

Elia
November 21st, 2015, 11:26 AM
There is one.

God the Father shows Himself as a Son, and also is a Spirit, in which He sends out without limit.

Bs"d

Three is not one, and one is not three.

That's something a child knows, but Christians cannot understand.

And then they call somebody who is able to count to two "blinded".



"For all people will walk every one in the name of his god, and we will walk in the name of Y-H-W-H our God for ever and ever.".
Micah 4:5
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.
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Elia
November 21st, 2015, 11:29 AM
There is one.

God the Father shows Himself as a Son, and also is a Spirit, in which He sends out without limit.

Bs'd

In the beginning of Christianity, somewhere in the third century, a Biblical scholar reared his head, his name was Sabelius, and he claimed that the Christian God, the father, son, and holy ghost, were three different manifestations of of the same God, just like steam, water, and ice, are three manifestations of one substance; H2O.

The result of this brilliant insight was that he was branded a heretic, and excommunicated. Then already the church realized that this is impossible.
When you say that it is all the same God, only in a different form, then you say that God is his own son, and at the same time his own father.

Then when Christ prays to his father, God is praying to himself.

Luke 22:41-42; Christ is praying, "saying, "Father, if You are willing, remove this cup from Me; yet not My will, but Yours be done."
So here God had a different will than himself?

Even in heaven Christ is subjugated to the father according to 1 Corr 15:28, Matthew 20:23, Fill 2:9.
So God is subjugated to himself?


When Christ was hanging on the cross, he cried out: "My God, my God, why did you forsake me?"
Did God forsake himself?

Col 3:1; "keep seeking the things above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God."
God is sitting on his own right hand?

God died on the cross, slaughtered by his creatures?
If so, who resurrected him?

The theory of Sabelius is impossible.



"For all people will walk every one in the name of his god, and we will walk in the name of Y-H-W-H our God for ever and ever.".
Micah 4:5

Elia
November 21st, 2015, 11:30 AM
Does the Bible talk about God the Father?

Yes.

Does the Bible talk about His Holy Spirit?

Yes.

Does God say they will call the child, the Son 'Father', 'God', and 'Prince'?

Yes.

See Isaiah 9:6.

Bs'd

Isaiah 9:2-7 "2 The people who walked in darkness have seen a great light; those who dwelt in a land of deep darkness, on them has light shined. 3 Thou hast multiplied the nation, thou hast increased its joy; they rejoice before thee as with joy at the harvest, as men rejoice when they divide the spoil. 4 For the yoke of his burden, and the staff for his shoulder, the rod of his oppressor, thou hast broken as on the day of Mid'ian. 5 For every boot of the tramping warrior in battle tumult and every garment rolled in blood will be burned as fuel for the fire. 6 For to us a child is born, to us a son is given; and the government will be upon his shoulder, and his name will be called "Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace". 7 Of the increase of his government and of peace there will be no end, upon the throne of David, and over his kingdom, to establish it, and to uphold it with justice and with righteousness from this time forth and for evermore. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will do this."
Please take notice of the fact that Isaiah is talking in the past tense: "The people who walked in darkness have seen a great light; those who dwelt in a land of deep darkness, on them has light shined.|

"For to us a child is born, to us a son is given; and the government is upon his shoulder, and his name was called "Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace."

These are things which had happened already in the days of Isaiah.

If, despite these facts, you still want to apply these verses to JC, than read verse 5, 6, and 7, and see that JC didn't do any of those things. He never ruled on the throne of David, he never had any government on his shoulders, and there never was endless peace over his kingdom.

The same holds true for the verses 6 and 7: "For to us a child is born, to us a son is given; and the government will be upon his shoulder, and his name will be called "Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace". 7 Of the increase of his government and of peace there will be no end, upon the throne of David, and over his kingdom, to establish it, and to uphold it with justice and with righteousness from this time forth and for evermore. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will do this."

All of this doesn't hold true for JC; he never had any government on his shoulder. And also here is spoken in the past tense: "A child is born, a son is given. But most translations give it in the future tense. For instance the RSV, NIV, NAS, ESV, KJV, NIRV, the all say; "His name will be called ....", future tense. However, in the Hebrew text this too is past tense: "His name was called ...." The Hebrew expression here is "wayikra". That is the first word in the book of Leviticus. And all the previously mentioned translations there say: "And the Lord called Mozes ..." Past tense. Exactly the same the word. Isn't that weird? Exactly the same word is used in Genesis 5:1; "And God called the light 'day'" Called. Past tense. Nobody argues with that one. But why then, in Isaiah 9, is it suddenly changed to future tense? The answer is simple: The past tense doesn't fit with the Christian theology, and therefore the Bible translations are corrupted and twisted to fit the Christian religion. Just like that. There is only one solution for this problem: Take a course in Biblical Hebrew. It is more easy then it looks. Then your eyes will be opened and the Christian deception will stare you in the face. And yes, I do sympathize with the poor misguided Christians whom are being led astray by their clergy by means of twisted and corrupted Bible translations. That's the reason why I fulfill my duty of being a light unto the nations and uncovering the Christian deception.
"Of the increase of his government and of peace there will be no end" "There will be no end", future tense. And this too is WRONG. It is in the Hebrew present tense. I found only one translation which is correct here, and that is Young's Literal Translation.

Why all this stress on the tenses? Isaiah spoke about a king who was living in his days, and therefore JC is out. The king that Isaiah speaks about is Hezekiah, the son of Achaz who got from Isaiah the sign about the young woman (no, not the virgin) who was pregnant and gave birth to the son Immanuel.
The Talmud explains that under the rule of the God fearing Hezekiah the Jewish kingdom rose to great heights, and that's why he was entitled to those impressive titles.


Because of the fact that the name of the son is "Mighty God", (or "God is Mighty", both are possible translations) and "Eternals Father", the Christians deduce that the boy spoken about must have been God.
HOWEVER, a name is only that; a name. A name is not a description of the bearer of that name. An example: Buffalo Bill was not a buffalo. The indian chief Sitting Bull was not a bull.
Many times people in the Bible have in their name the word "God", or the name of God, but that doesn't mean that those people are God. For instance; in Exodus 6:23 is spoken about a man called "Elazar". That means "God is helper", or "Helping God". But that doesn't mean that that man was God.
Exodus 6:24; "Elkanah", that means "God acquired", or "acquiring God". II Samuel 22:19; "Elchanan"; "God is merciful", or "Merciful God". But these men were not God, just like the the child in Isaiah 9 wasn't God.


Apart from that, the Hebrew words "El gibor", in Christian Bibles translated with "Mighty God", can have a different meaning. "El" can mean "God", but it can also mean "judge", "leader", or "mighty man". In Exodus 4:16 God says to Moses that he will be of an elohiem for his brother Aharon. ("elohim" is the longer form of the word "el") This doesn't mean that Moses was a God for Aharon and Aharon started to worship his brother, it meant that Moses would be the leader of Aharon.
In Exodus 21:1-6 is spoken about a slave who after the normal period of servitude ended, doesn't want to leave his master. In that case the owner has to take him to court, where the slave will make a statement that he doesn't want to leave his master, and that he will serve his master until his death. The Hebrew text there says that his master must take him to the "elohim". There the NAS, ASV, ESV, NRSV, RSV, YLT, they all say that his master must take him "to God". However, his master doesn't take him for a ride to heaven, but takes him to the courthouse. Therefore the NIV, KJV, TNIV, and the NIRV, they all say that the master must take him to "the judges".

Even so in Isaiah 9 the word "El" does not necessarily mean "God". Therefore the text in Isaiah 9 is in no way a proof that the child spoken about was God.



"For all people will walk every one in the name of his god, and we will walk in the name of Y-H-W-H our God for ever and ever.".
Micah 4:5.
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.
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Elia
November 21st, 2015, 11:33 AM
How many is that?

Bs"d

How many Gods are there?

Bs"d


"Know therefore this day, and consider it in your heart, that the LORD, he is God in heaven above, and upon the earth beneath; there is no other." Deuteronomy 4:39

"See now that I, even I, am He, and there is no god with me." Deuteronomy..32:39

"I am He, before Me no god was created, neither shall there be after Me." Isaiah 43:10

"Thus saith the LORD, the King of Israel and his redeemer, the LORD of hosts, I am the first, and I am the last, and beside Me there is no god." Isaiah 44:6

"I am the LORD, and there is none else." Isaiah 45:18

Surprising as it may be, in the New Testament there is also only one God who is one. Look for this fact at the following verses: Mark 12:29-34. Here Jesus himself, when asked what is the first commandment, quotes Deuteronomy 6:4: "Hear Israel, the Lord our God is one Lord." And in verse 32 he is answered: "There is one God, and there is no other than He", upon which Jesus replies: "You are not far from the kingdom of God."

So also for Jesus there clearly is one God who is one.

And what about Paul, who wrote more than half of all the books of the New Testament, what does he think about it?

Romans 3:30: "Seeing it is one God, …"

I Corinthians 8:4: "We know that an idol is nothing in the world and that there is no other God than one."

idem verse 6: "But to us there is but one God …"

Ephesians 4:6; "One God and father of all, …"

I Timothy 2:5; "For there is one God …"

And look what James says in James 2:19; "You believe that there is one God, and you do well."



"For all people will walk every one in the name of his god, and we will walk in the name of Y-H-W-H our God for ever and ever.".
Micah 4:5

jamie
November 21st, 2015, 02:40 PM
As a person who believes in the trinity and the scriptures, I am appalled at the clear misrepresentation of this important doctrine. Of course any one reading the Bible sees that there is one eternal, infinite, sovereign, wrathful, loving, Jealous God. However, it is also clear that God subsists in three persons. These persons are distinct from each other while sharing in the divine perfections and nature. In fact, Christianity is built upon this formula, which can be clearly seen in Matthew 28:19-20. We are to baptize people in the name (singular) of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit (three persons).


Which person does scripture say is Jesus' father?

God's Truth
November 21st, 2015, 07:31 PM
Bs"d

Three is not one, and one is not three.

That's something a child knows, but Christians cannot understand.

And then they call somebody who is able to count to two "blinded".



"For all people will walk every one in the name of his god, and we will walk in the name of Y-H-W-H our God for ever and ever.".
Micah 4:5
.
.
.
.

There are three, and the three are one and the same.

If you do not understand that, then you are blinded.

God's Truth
November 21st, 2015, 07:37 PM
Bs'd

In the beginning of Christianity, somewhere in the third century, a Biblical scholar reared his head, his name was Sabelius, and he claimed that the Christian God, the father, son, and holy ghost, were three different manifestations of of the same God, just like steam, water, and ice, are three manifestations of one substance; H2O.

The result of this brilliant insight was that he was branded a heretic, and excommunicated. Then already the church realized that this is impossible.
When you say that it is all the same God, only in a different form, then you say that God is his own son, and at the same time his own father.

Then when Christ prays to his father, God is praying to himself.

Luke 22:41-42; Christ is praying, "saying, "Father, if You are willing, remove this cup from Me; yet not My will, but Yours be done."
So here God had a different will than himself?

Even in heaven Christ is subjugated to the father according to 1 Corr 15:28, Matthew 20:23, Fill 2:9.
So God is subjugated to himself?


When Christ was hanging on the cross, he cried out: "My God, my God, why did you forsake me?"
Did God forsake himself?

Col 3:1; "keep seeking the things above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God."
God is sitting on his own right hand?

God died on the cross, slaughtered by his creatures?
If so, who resurrected him?

The theory of Sabelius is impossible.



"For all people will walk every one in the name of his god, and we will walk in the name of Y-H-W-H our God for ever and ever.".
Micah 4:5

We are not just flesh, we are flesh and spirit.

Hebrews 12:9, Zechariah 12:1, and Malachi 2:15.

Jesus' Spirit is the Holy Spirit, the Spirit of God the Father, and Jesus raised himself.

God raised Jesus from the dead.

Acts 2:32 God has raised this Jesus to life, and we are all witnesses of the fact.

Rom. 10:9, 1 Pet. 1:21


The Father raised him.

Gal. 1:1; Eph. 1:17,20


Jesus raised himself.

John 10:18 No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down and authority to take it up again. This command I received from my Father."

John 2:19 Jesus answered them, "Destroy this temple, and I will raise it again in three days."

Jesus and God are the same. That is why some scripture says God raised Jesus, and other scriptures say Jesus raised himself


The Holy Spirit raised Jesus.


Romans 8:11 And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies because of his Spirit who lives in you.

1 Peter 3:18 For Christ died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive by the Spirit,

(Jesus was made alive by the Spirit, because the Holy Spirit is his Spirit.)


Aramaic Bible in Plain English (©2010)
1 Peter 3:18 Because The Messiah also died once for the sake of our sins, The Righteous One in the place of sinners, to bring you to God, and he died in body and lived in his Spirit.

God's Truth
November 21st, 2015, 07:40 PM
Bs'd

Isaiah 9:2-7 "2 The people who walked in darkness have seen a great light; those who dwelt in a land of deep darkness, on them has light shined. 3 Thou hast multiplied the nation, thou hast increased its joy; they rejoice before thee as with joy at the harvest, as men rejoice when they divide the spoil. 4 For the yoke of his burden, and the staff for his shoulder, the rod of his oppressor, thou hast broken as on the day of Mid'ian. 5 For every boot of the tramping warrior in battle tumult and every garment rolled in blood will be burned as fuel for the fire. 6 For to us a child is born, to us a son is given; and the government will be upon his shoulder, and his name will be called "Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace". 7 Of the increase of his government and of peace there will be no end, upon the throne of David, and over his kingdom, to establish it, and to uphold it with justice and with righteousness from this time forth and for evermore. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will do this."
Please take notice of the fact that Isaiah is talking in the past tense: "The people who walked in darkness have seen a great light; those who dwelt in a land of deep darkness, on them has light shined.|

"For to us a child is born, to us a son is given; and the government is upon his shoulder, and his name was called "Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace."

These are things which had happened already in the days of Isaiah.

If, despite these facts, you still want to apply these verses to JC, than read verse 5, 6, and 7, and see that JC didn't do any of those things. He never ruled on the throne of David, he never had any government on his shoulders, and there never was endless peace over his kingdom.

The same holds true for the verses 6 and 7: "For to us a child is born, to us a son is given; and the government will be upon his shoulder, and his name will be called "Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace". 7 Of the increase of his government and of peace there will be no end, upon the throne of David, and over his kingdom, to establish it, and to uphold it with justice and with righteousness from this time forth and for evermore. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will do this."

All of this doesn't hold true for JC; he never had any government on his shoulder. And also here is spoken in the past tense: "A child is born, a son is given. But most translations give it in the future tense. For instance the RSV, NIV, NAS, ESV, KJV, NIRV, the all say; "His name will be called ....", future tense. However, in the Hebrew text this too is past tense: "His name was called ...." The Hebrew expression here is "wayikra". That is the first word in the book of Leviticus. And all the previously mentioned translations there say: "And the Lord called Mozes ..." Past tense. Exactly the same the word. Isn't that weird? Exactly the same word is used in Genesis 5:1; "And God called the light 'day'" Called. Past tense. Nobody argues with that one. But why then, in Isaiah 9, is it suddenly changed to future tense? The answer is simple: The past tense doesn't fit with the Christian theology, and therefore the Bible translations are corrupted and twisted to fit the Christian religion. Just like that. There is only one solution for this problem: Take a course in Biblical Hebrew. It is more easy then it looks. Then your eyes will be opened and the Christian deception will stare you in the face. And yes, I do sympathize with the poor misguided Christians whom are being led astray by their clergy by means of twisted and corrupted Bible translations. That's the reason why I fulfill my duty of being a light unto the nations and uncovering the Christian deception.
"Of the increase of his government and of peace there will be no end" "There will be no end", future tense. And this too is WRONG. It is in the Hebrew present tense. I found only one translation which is correct here, and that is Young's Literal Translation.

Why all this stress on the tenses? Isaiah spoke about a king who was living in his days, and therefore JC is out. The king that Isaiah speaks about is Hezekiah, the son of Achaz who got from Isaiah the sign about the young woman (no, not the virgin) who was pregnant and gave birth to the son Immanuel.
The Talmud explains that under the rule of the God fearing Hezekiah the Jewish kingdom rose to great heights, and that's why he was entitled to those impressive titles.


Because of the fact that the name of the son is "Mighty God", (or "God is Mighty", both are possible translations) and "Eternals Father", the Christians deduce that the boy spoken about must have been God.
HOWEVER, a name is only that; a name. A name is not a description of the bearer of that name. An example: Buffalo Bill was not a buffalo. The indian chief Sitting Bull was not a bull.
Many times people in the Bible have in their name the word "God", or the name of God, but that doesn't mean that those people are God. For instance; in Exodus 6:23 is spoken about a man called "Elazar". That means "God is helper", or "Helping God". But that doesn't mean that that man was God.
Exodus 6:24; "Elkanah", that means "God acquired", or "acquiring God". II Samuel 22:19; "Elchanan"; "God is merciful", or "Merciful God". But these men were not God, just like the the child in Isaiah 9 wasn't God.


Apart from that, the Hebrew words "El gibor", in Christian Bibles translated with "Mighty God", can have a different meaning. "El" can mean "God", but it can also mean "judge", "leader", or "mighty man". In Exodus 4:16 God says to Moses that he will be of an elohiem for his brother Aharon. ("elohim" is the longer form of the word "el") This doesn't mean that Moses was a God for Aharon and Aharon started to worship his brother, it meant that Moses would be the leader of Aharon.
In Exodus 21:1-6 is spoken about a slave who after the normal period of servitude ended, doesn't want to leave his master. In that case the owner has to take him to court, where the slave will make a statement that he doesn't want to leave his master, and that he will serve his master until his death. The Hebrew text there says that his master must take him to the "elohim". There the NAS, ASV, ESV, NRSV, RSV, YLT, they all say that his master must take him "to God". However, his master doesn't take him for a ride to heaven, but takes him to the courthouse. Therefore the NIV, KJV, TNIV, and the NIRV, they all say that the master must take him to "the judges".

Even so in Isaiah 9 the word "El" does not necessarily mean "God". Therefore the text in Isaiah 9 is in no way a proof that the child spoken about was God.



"For all people will walk every one in the name of his god, and we will walk in the name of Y-H-W-H our God for ever and ever.".
Micah 4:5.
.
.
.

Matthew "'The Lord said to my Lord: "Sit at my right hand until I put your enemies under your feet."'

God's Truth
November 21st, 2015, 07:40 PM
Bs"d

How many Gods are there?

Bs"d


"Know therefore this day, and consider it in your heart, that the LORD, he is God in heaven above, and upon the earth beneath; there is no other." Deuteronomy 4:39

"See now that I, even I, am He, and there is no god with me." Deuteronomy..32:39

"I am He, before Me no god was created, neither shall there be after Me." Isaiah 43:10

"Thus saith the LORD, the King of Israel and his redeemer, the LORD of hosts, I am the first, and I am the last, and beside Me there is no god." Isaiah 44:6

"I am the LORD, and there is none else." Isaiah 45:18

Surprising as it may be, in the New Testament there is also only one God who is one. Look for this fact at the following verses: Mark 12:29-34. Here Jesus himself, when asked what is the first commandment, quotes Deuteronomy 6:4: "Hear Israel, the Lord our God is one Lord." And in verse 32 he is answered: "There is one God, and there is no other than He", upon which Jesus replies: "You are not far from the kingdom of God."

So also for Jesus there clearly is one God who is one.

And what about Paul, who wrote more than half of all the books of the New Testament, what does he think about it?

Romans 3:30: "Seeing it is one God, …"

I Corinthians 8:4: "We know that an idol is nothing in the world and that there is no other God than one."

idem verse 6: "But to us there is but one God …"

Ephesians 4:6; "One God and father of all, …"

I Timothy 2:5; "For there is one God …"

And look what James says in James 2:19; "You believe that there is one God, and you do well."



"For all people will walk every one in the name of his god, and we will walk in the name of Y-H-W-H our God for ever and ever.".
Micah 4:5

There is only one God, and Jesus is God the Father come in the flesh.

Ktoyou
November 21st, 2015, 08:56 PM
Yes, just what we need...another Trinitarian thread. After all, the topic is scarcely seen around these parts. :AMR:

The Trinity is an essential of the faith we hold dear. Deny it and one has no warrant to the claim to being a Christian. It is not debatable. "This is the catholic {universal} faith, which except a man believe faithfully, he cannot be saved" (see Athanasian Creed: http://www.reformed.org/documents/athanasian.html).

Asked and answered by the church militant about fifteen hundred years ago.

AMR

Isn't this the same title of a past thread?

Lazy afternoon
November 22nd, 2015, 12:33 AM
Isn't this the same title of a past thread?

Yes but it took 500 years before the church militant figured it all out.

LA

Elia
November 22nd, 2015, 05:03 AM
There are three, and the three are one and the same.

If you do not understand that, then you are blinded.

Bs"d

A "God the Father" and a "god the son" that is TWO (2) gods.

If you cannot understand that, then not only are you blinded, but then you cannot count to two.


Persons who cannot count to two should not say to other people that they are blinded.

First learn to count to two.



"For all people will walk every one in the name of his god, and we will walk in the name of Y-H-W-H our God for ever and ever.".
Micah 4:5.
.
.
.

Elia
November 22nd, 2015, 05:09 AM
God raised Jesus from the dead.

Acts 2:32 God has raised this Jesus to life, and we are all witnesses of the fact.

Bs"d

Why do you think that he was resurrected?

Even in the New Testament there is NOT ONE SINGLE WITNESS of his resurrection. No man saw him get up from the grave and walk away.

Oh, but he appeared to his disciples. Well, in that case, can you explain to me why nobody recognized him? Look in Luke 24:13-35. This speaks about the men on the road to Emmaus. He met them, but they didn't recognize him.

The same thing happens in John 20:14; "At this, she turned around and saw Jesus standing there, but she did not realize that it was Jesus. "Woman," he said, "why are you crying? Who is it you are looking for?" Thinking he was the gardener, she said, ... "
She thought he was the gardener....

John 21:4 "Early in the morning, Jesus stood on the shore, but the disciples did not realize that it was Jesus. He called out to them, ..."

And again they didn't recognize him.

Isn't it strange that they didn't recognize the person with whom they were so close for years?

But the NT gives the answer to that strange phenomena. Look in Mark 16:12-13 "Afterward Jesus appeared IN A DIFFERENT FORM to two of them while they were walking in the country."
So it was a person "in a different form" from the previous well known person who appeared to them, that's why they didn't recognize him.

A person in different form from the old Christ, who was not recognized by the people he interacted with for years, only days before, doesn't that sounds like an impostor who is pretending to be the resurrected messiah?

That also explains why some of the disciples doubted when the "resurrected messiah" appeared to them: "When they saw him, they worshiped him; but some doubted." Matt 28:17.

Can you imagine that the authentic messiah appears to you and you still doubt?
Apparently he was not so authentic.

If the disciples, who saw the "resurrected Christ" with their own eyes, still doubted, why then do the Christians 2000 years later, who have nothing to go by but stories, don't doubt?



"For all people will walk every one in the name of his god, and we will walk in the name of Y-H-W-H our God for ever and ever.".
Micah 4:5.
.
.
.

Elia
November 22nd, 2015, 05:11 AM
Matthew "'The Lord said to my Lord: "Sit at my right hand until I put your enemies under your feet."'

Bs"d

Psalm 110:1; "The Lord says to my lord: Sit at my right hand, till I make your enemies your footstool."

This Psalm is most likely written by an officer in David's army. It says here; The Lord, (in Hebrew Y-H-W-H) says to my lord, (in the sense of master). This is literally translated: Y-H-W-H says to my master: etc. This applies to David, just like the next verse, "The Lord sends forth from Zion your mighty scepter. Rule in the midst of your foes." This is what King David did, God made his enemies a footstool to him, and he ruled from Zion (Jerusalem). Verse 5 and 6: "The Lord is at your right hand, He will shatter kings on the day of his wrath. He will execute judgment among the nations, filling them with corpses." King David slaughtered many of his enemies, as written in this Psalm, but all these things that were never done by Jesus. Therefore it makes no sense to say that this applies to Jesus and not to king David.

Here is the explanation of the great Jewish sage from the Middle Ages, rabbi Moshe ben Nachman, a.k.a. the Ramban:

King David was the composer who wrote the Psalms with the aid of the holy spirit. He composed them for the purpose of having them sung before the altar of God. He himself did not sing them, nor was he permitted to do so, for that function was forbidden to him by law of the Torah. (Deuteronomy 18:6-7) Insted, he gave the Psalms to the Levites, so that they would sing them. This is clearly written in the book of I Chronicles 16:7 Therefore, King David perforce expressed the psalm in the language appropriate for utterance by the Levites. Thus, if King David had said; "The Eternal said to me", the levites repeating these words would be uttering falsehood. Instead, it is proper for the Levite to say in the Temple: "The Eternal saith unto my lord: (that is to King David) Sit thou at My right hand." The purport of the term 'sitting' is to state that the Creator, blessed be He, will protect him during his lifetime and that He will save him and cause him to prevail over his enemies. So it was, for he lifted up his spear against eight hundred, whom he slew at one time. This is the right hand of God. It is also written of David: "And Your right hand has holden me up." Psalm 18:36. It is similarly written: "The right hand of the Almighty does valiantly. The right hand of the Eternal is exalted." Psalm 118:15 Regarding Moses our teacher, peace be upon him, it is written: "He caused His glorious arm to go at the right hand of Moses." Isaiah 63:12 And Moses said at the fall of pharaoh: "Thy right hand, O Eternal, dashes the enemy in pieces." Exodus 15:6



"For all people will walk every one in the name of his god, and we will walk in the name of Y-H-W-H our God for ever and ever.".
Micah 4:5.
.
.

Elia
November 22nd, 2015, 05:12 AM
There is only one God, and Jesus is God the Father come in the flesh.

Bs"d

So there is no such a thing as "god the son"?



"For all people will walk every one in the name of his god, and we will walk in the name of Y-H-W-H our God for ever and ever.".
Micah 4:5.
.

Elia
November 22nd, 2015, 05:17 AM
Yes, just what we need...another Trinitarian thread. After all, the topic is scarcely seen around these parts. :AMR:

The Trinity is an essential of the faith we hold dear. Deny it and one has no warrant to the claim to being a Christian. It is not debatable. "This is the catholic {universal} faith, which except a man believe faithfully, he cannot be saved" (see Athanasian Creed: http://www.reformed.org/documents/athanasian.html).

Asked and answered by the church militant about fifteen hundred years ago.

AMR

Bs"d

And WHY is it that the trinity is so hotly debated?

Because is the most important dogma in the church.

It is the only thing that stands (or so they think) between Christianity and polytheism & idolatry.

Add to that that it is nowhere to be found in Scripture and that it is an illogical concept, then you understand why so much time is put in to it.



"For all people will walk every one in the name of his god, and we will walk in the name of Y-H-W-H our God for ever and ever.".
Micah 4:5.
.

God's Truth
November 22nd, 2015, 12:41 PM
Bs"d

So there is no such a thing as "god the son"?



"For all people will walk every one in the name of his god, and we will walk in the name of Y-H-W-H our God for ever and ever.".
Micah 4:5.
.


How do you ever get that from what I said?

Why don't you put more into it?

Why don't you study harder?

God the Father came as Jesus the Son.

God's Truth
November 22nd, 2015, 12:44 PM
Bs"d

A "God the Father" and a "god the son" that is TWO (2) gods.

If you cannot understand that, then not only are you blinded, but then you cannot count to two.


Persons who cannot count to two should not say to other people that they are blinded.

First learn to count to two.



"For all people will walk every one in the name of his god, and we will walk in the name of Y-H-W-H our God for ever and ever.".
Micah 4:5.
.
.
.


God is One.

The One God came as a Son.

You are blind, and you should have took your own advice when you said the blind should not call others 'blind'.

God's Truth
November 22nd, 2015, 12:54 PM
Why do you think that he was resurrected?
The scriptures says Jesus was resurrected.
Jesus is the resurrection.

John 11:25 Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life. The one who believes in me will live, even though they die;




Even in the New Testament there is NOT ONE SINGLE WITNESS of his resurrection. No man saw him get up from the grave and walk away.

Oh, but he appeared to his disciples.

He appeared to more than 500.




Well, in that case, can you explain to me why nobody recognized him? Look in Luke 24:13-35. This speaks about the men on the road to Emmaus. He met them, but they didn't recognize him.


John 20:27 Then he said to Thomas, "Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting and believe."



The same thing happens in John 20:14; "At this, she turned around and saw Jesus standing there, but she did not realize that it was Jesus. "Woman," he said, "why are you crying? Who is it you are looking for?" Thinking he was the gardener, she said, ... "
She thought he was the gardener....

John 21:4 "Early in the morning, Jesus stood on the shore, but the disciples did not realize that it was Jesus. He called out to them, ..."

And again they didn't recognize him.

Isn't it strange that they didn't recognize the person with whom they were so close for years?

He had his beard pulled out.

What man does not look different without his beard?

Isaiah 50:6 I offered my back to those who beat me, my cheeks to those who pulled out my beard; I did not hide my face from mocking and spitting.




But the NT gives the answer to that strange phenomena. Look in Mark 16:12-13 "Afterward Jesus appeared IN A DIFFERENT FORM to two of them while they were walking in the country."
So it was a person "in a different form" from the previous well known person who appeared to them, that's why they didn't recognize him.

A person in different form from the old Christ, who was not recognized by the people he interacted with for years, only days before, doesn't that sounds like an impostor who is pretending to be the resurrected messiah?
Jesus at that time did not want to be recognized.

God's Truth
November 22nd, 2015, 12:59 PM
Psalm 110:1; "The Lord says to my lord: Sit at my right hand, till I make your enemies your footstool."

This Psalm is most likely written by an officer in David's army.

So then, you are changing the word of God to support your confused false beliefs. You are causing doubt and confusion to God's Truth.

God's Truth
November 22nd, 2015, 01:00 PM
Bs"d

And WHY is it that the trinity is so hotly debated?

Because is the most important dogma in the church.

It is the only thing that stands (or so they think) between Christianity and polytheism & idolatry.

Add to that that it is nowhere to be found in Scripture and that it is an illogical concept, then you understand why so much time is put in to it.



"For all people will walk every one in the name of his god, and we will walk in the name of Y-H-W-H our God for ever and ever.".
Micah 4:5.
.


Please do not strengthen your self and your false beliefs by comparing them to Mr. Religion's false beliefs.

He repeats what his choice teachers say.

What he says is not from the written Word of God.

RBBI
November 23rd, 2015, 03:14 AM
Bs"d

Why do you think that he was resurrected?

Even in the New Testament there is NOT ONE SINGLE WITNESS of his resurrection. No man saw him get up from the grave and walk away.

Oh, but he appeared to his disciples. Well, in that case, can you explain to me why nobody recognized him? Look in Luke 24:13-35. This speaks about the men on the road to Emmaus. He met them, but they didn't recognize him.

The same thing happens in John 20:14; "At this, she turned around and saw Jesus standing there, but she did not realize that it was Jesus. "Woman," he said, "why are you crying? Who is it you are looking for?" Thinking he was the gardener, she said, ... "
She thought he was the gardener....

John 21:4 "Early in the morning, Jesus stood on the shore, but the disciples did not realize that it was Jesus. He called out to them, ..."

And again they didn't recognize him.

Isn't it strange that they didn't recognize the person with whom they were so close for years?

But the NT gives the answer to that strange phenomena. Look in Mark 16:12-13 "Afterward Jesus appeared IN A DIFFERENT FORM to two of them while they were walking in the country."
So it was a person "in a different form" from the previous well known person who appeared to them, that's why they didn't recognize him.

A person in different form from the old Christ, who was not recognized by the people he interacted with for years, only days before, doesn't that sounds like an impostor who is pretending to be the resurrected messiah?

That also explains why some of the disciples doubted when the "resurrected messiah" appeared to them: "When they saw him, they worshiped him; but some doubted." Matt 28:17.

Can you imagine that the authentic messiah appears to you and you still doubt?
Apparently he was not so authentic.

If the disciples, who saw the "resurrected Christ" with their own eyes, still doubted, why then do the Christians 2000 years later, who have nothing to go by but stories, don't doubt?



"For all people will walk every one in the name of his god, and we will walk in the name of Y-H-W-H our God for ever and ever.".
Micah 4:5.
.
.
.


Here's the problem you face trying to pin the tail on this donkey of Christianity: almost no one agrees with anyone else because almost all have left the pattern (Tabernacle of Moses) behind to form their own best guestimates.

Therefore, most don't realize that Messiah as the Son of HaShem has to be a Spirit form because it must conform to the law and according to the law, all seeds bear fruit after their own kind. HaShem is Spirit, His Son must be Spirit as well.

His first appearance then was in the form of Yeshua, who clearly made a distinction between his flesh man and HaShem, stating, why callest thou me good? There is none good but the Father.

After His resurrection, He was free to take whatever form pleased Him. They recognized Him then not by the flesh, but by the Spirit, which is why the Word says hereafter we'll not know Him after the flesh but by the Spirit. When the two on the road said they recognized Him by His Word burning within their hearts, it was mean to illustrate this truth.

So NONE of this study is going to change you, UNTIL you ask HaShem to show you if Yeshua is the Messiah and receive that same spirit into your heart. If you are truly seeking Truth with a pure motive, you will be given it. Peace

Elia
November 23rd, 2015, 10:54 PM
How do you ever get that from what I said?

Why don't you put more into it?

Why don't you study harder?

God the Father came as Jesus the Son.

Bs"d

In that case, when he was praying to his father, who was he praying to?



"For all people will walk every one in the name of his god, and we will walk in the name of Y-H-W-H our God for ever and ever.".
Micah 4:5

Elia
November 23rd, 2015, 10:56 PM
God is One.

The One God came as a Son.

You are blind, and you should have took your own advice when you said the blind should not call others 'blind'.

Bs"d

If anybody says the Christian messiah is the same as Y-H-W-H then you are stuck with the fact that Y-H-W-H is his own son and at the same time his own father.



Then you are stuck with the fact that when the Christian messiah prays to his father, Y-H-W-H is praying to himself.



Luke 22:41-42: “and He knelt down and began to pray, saying, "Father, if You are willing, remove this cup from Me; yet not My will, but Yours be done."

So here Y-H-W-H has a different will than himself???



Even in heaven the Christian messiah is subjected to the Father, according to Corinthians 15:28, Matthew 20:23, Fillipens 2:9, and others.

So Y-H-W-H is subjected to himself???



When the Christian messiah was hanging at the cross, he cried out: “My God, my God, why did you forsake me?” Matthew 27:46

So Y-H-W-H forsook himself???



Collossians 3:1; “set your hearts on things above, where Christ is seated at the right hand of God.”

Y-H-W-H is sitting at his own right hand???



Y-H-W-H died at the cross, slaughtered by his own creatures?

If so, who resurrected him?



Remember there is only one God: Y-H-W-H who IS one.



"For all people will walk every one in the name of his god, and we will walk in the name of Y-H-W-H our God for ever and ever.".
Micah 4:5

Elia
November 23rd, 2015, 10:59 PM
The scriptures says Jesus was resurrected.
Jesus is the resurrection.

John 11:25 Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life. The one who believes in me will live, even though they die;



He appeared to more than 500.

Bs"d

Or so claims Paul, who himself admits he is a liar.

And if that were the case, why is this very important fact nowhere mentioned in the gospels?

But what is it worth if he appears to 500 "in a different form" that is not recognized by anyone?



"For all people will walk every one in the name of his god, and we will walk in the name of Y-H-W-H our God for ever and ever.".
Micah 4:5

Elia
November 23rd, 2015, 11:05 PM
Please do not strengthen your self and your false beliefs by comparing them to Mr. Religion's false beliefs.

He repeats what his choice teachers say.

What he says is not from the written Word of God.

Bs"d

And you think the trinity is?

What is from the written word of God is that GOD IS ONE:

"Hear Israel, Y-H-W-H is our God, Y-H-W-H is ONE!" Deut 6:4

"Listen, Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is One" Holman Christian Standard Bible

"Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one." English Standard Version

"Hear, O Israel! The LORD is our God, the LORD is one!" New American Standard Bible

"Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one." New International Version

"Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one!" New King James Version"





"And one of the scribes came up and heard them disputing with one another, and seeing that he answered them well, asked him, "Which commandment is the first of all?" Jesus answered, "The first is, `Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, THE LORD IS ONE; and you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind, and with all your strength.' The second is this, `You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' There is no other commandment greater than these." And the scribe said to him, "You are right, Teacher; you have truly said that HE IS ONE, and there is no other but he; and to love him with all the heart, and with all the understanding, and with all the strength, and to love one's neighbor as oneself, is much more than all whole burnt offerings and sacrifices." And when Jesus saw that he answered wisely, he said to him, "You are not far from the kingdom of God."" Mark 12:28-34 Revised Standard Version

“The most important one,” answered Jesus, “is this: ‘Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one." .... "You are right in saying that God is one" New International Version

"Here is the most important one. Moses said, 'Israel, listen to me. The Lord is our God. The Lord is one." .... "You are right in saying that God is one." New International Readers Version

"Jesus answered: Listen, Israel! The Lord our God, The Lord is One." .... "You have correctly said that He is One," Holman Christian Standard Bible

"Jesus answered, The first is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God, the Lord is one:" .... "thou hast well said that he is one;" American Standard Version

"Jesus answered him, “The first of all the commandments is: ‘Hear, O Israel, the LORD our God, the LORD is one." New King James Version

"Jesus answered, "The most important is, 'Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one" .... "You have truly said that he is one," English Standard Version

"Jesus said, "The first in importance is, 'Listen, Israel: The Lord your God is one;" .... "A wonderful answer, Teacher! So lucid and accurate—that God is one" The Message

"‘Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one." .... “You are right in saying that God is one" New International Version





"Now an intermediary implies more than one; but GOD IS ONE." Gal 3:20 Revised Standard Version

"Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but GOD IS ONE" King James Version

"A mediator, however, implies more than one party; but GOD IS ONE." New International Version

"Now an intermediary implies more than one, but GOD IS ONE." English Standard Version

"Now a mediator is not a mediator of one; but GOD IS ONE." American Standard Version

"and the mediator is not of one, and GOD IS ONE" Youngs Literal Translation





"You believe that GOD IS ONE; you do well." James 2:19 Revised Standard Version

"thou -- thou dost believe that GOD IS ONE; thou dost well," Youngs Literal translation

"Thou believest that GOD IS ONE; thou doest well:" American Standard Version

"You believe that GOD IS ONE; you do well." Holman Christian Standard Bible.

"*Thou* believest that GOD IS ONE. Thou doest well." Darby Translation.

"It’s good that you believe that GOD IS ONE." Common English Bible

"You believe that GOD IS ONE; you do well." English Standard Version

"You believe that GOD IS ONE; you do well." Amplified Bible

"You believe that GOD IS ONE You do well;" New American Standard Bible



So the Bible teaches clearly that God is ONE.



"And J-e-h-o-v-a-h shall be King over all the earth: in that day shall J-e-h-o-v-a-h be one, and his name one." Zach 14:9 American Standard Version

"And the LORD shall be King over all the earth. In that day it shall be— “The LORD is one, And His name one." New King James Version

"And the LORD will be king over all the earth. On that day the LORD will be one and his name one." English Standard Version

"And the Lord shall be King over all the earth; in that day the Lord shall be one and His name one." Amplified Bible



[I]"For all people will walk every one in the name of his god, and we will walk in the name of Y-H-W-H our God for ever and ever.".
Micah 4:5

sfontel
November 26th, 2015, 09:20 AM
Bs"d

And you think the trinity is?

What is from the written word of God is that GOD IS ONE:

"Hear Israel, Y-H-W-H is our God, Y-H-W-H is ONE!" Deut 6:4

"Listen, Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is One" Holman Christian Standard Bible

"Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one." English Standard Version

"Hear, O Israel! The LORD is our God, the LORD is one!" New American Standard Bible

"Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one." New International Version

"Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one!" New King James Version"





"And one of the scribes came up and heard them disputing with one another, and seeing that he answered them well, asked him, "Which commandment is the first of all?" Jesus answered, "The first is, `Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, THE LORD IS ONE; and you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind, and with all your strength.' The second is this, `You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' There is no other commandment greater than these." And the scribe said to him, "You are right, Teacher; you have truly said that HE IS ONE, and there is no other but he; and to love him with all the heart, and with all the understanding, and with all the strength, and to love one's neighbor as oneself, is much more than all whole burnt offerings and sacrifices." And when Jesus saw that he answered wisely, he said to him, "You are not far from the kingdom of God."" Mark 12:28-34 Revised Standard Version

“The most important one,” answered Jesus, “is this: ‘Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one." .... "You are right in saying that God is one" New International Version

"Here is the most important one. Moses said, 'Israel, listen to me. The Lord is our God. The Lord is one." .... "You are right in saying that God is one." New International Readers Version

"Jesus answered: Listen, Israel! The Lord our God, The Lord is One." .... "You have correctly said that He is One," Holman Christian Standard Bible

"Jesus answered, The first is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God, the Lord is one:" .... "thou hast well said that he is one;" American Standard Version

"Jesus answered him, “The first of all the commandments is: ‘Hear, O Israel, the LORD our God, the LORD is one." New King James Version

"Jesus answered, "The most important is, 'Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one" .... "You have truly said that he is one," English Standard Version

"Jesus said, "The first in importance is, 'Listen, Israel: The Lord your God is one;" .... "A wonderful answer, Teacher! So lucid and accurate—that God is one" The Message

"‘Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one." .... “You are right in saying that God is one" New International Version





"Now an intermediary implies more than one; but GOD IS ONE." Gal 3:20 Revised Standard Version

"Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but GOD IS ONE" King James Version

"A mediator, however, implies more than one party; but GOD IS ONE." New International Version

"Now an intermediary implies more than one, but GOD IS ONE." English Standard Version

"Now a mediator is not a mediator of one; but GOD IS ONE." American Standard Version

"and the mediator is not of one, and GOD IS ONE" Youngs Literal Translation





"You believe that GOD IS ONE; you do well." James 2:19 Revised Standard Version

"thou -- thou dost believe that GOD IS ONE; thou dost well," Youngs Literal translation

"Thou believest that GOD IS ONE; thou doest well:" American Standard Version

"You believe that GOD IS ONE; you do well." Holman Christian Standard Bible.

"*Thou* believest that GOD IS ONE. Thou doest well." Darby Translation.

"It’s good that you believe that GOD IS ONE." Common English Bible

"You believe that GOD IS ONE; you do well." English Standard Version

"You believe that GOD IS ONE; you do well." Amplified Bible

"You believe that GOD IS ONE You do well;" New American Standard Bible



So the Bible teaches clearly that God is ONE.



"And J-e-h-o-v-a-h shall be King over all the earth: in that day shall J-e-h-o-v-a-h be one, and his name one." Zach 14:9 American Standard Version

"And the LORD shall be King over all the earth. In that day it shall be— “The LORD is one, And His name one." New King James Version

"And the LORD will be king over all the earth. On that day the LORD will be one and his name one." English Standard Version

"And the Lord shall be King over all the earth; in that day the Lord shall be one and His name one." Amplified Bible



[I]"For all people will walk every one in the name of his god, and we will walk in the name of Y-H-W-H our God for ever and ever.".
Micah 4:5
Hi! Shalom!

If you can, please let me know why Jew genarely speaking, dont like to even mention Jesus name?

Are presenting a new jewish vision obout Jesus?

There is then no way that a Jew can ever accept*Jesus*as a deity, mediator or savior (messiah), or even as a*prophet, without betraying*Judaism." Schochet, Rabbi J. Emmanuel (29 July 1999). "Judaism*has no place for those who betray their roots". The Canadian Jewish News.

I guess this Rabi above knows that they try to stone Jesus a few times becouse He did and said things only proper to God in the NT...so there is no doubt about that brother!

Are you trying to understand the infinitude of Elohim!?....Great, I believe you are on right track...God bless you In Jesus name...Happy Thanksgiving!

Elia
November 27th, 2015, 12:21 AM
Hi! Shalom!

If you can, please let me know why Jew genarely speaking, dont like to even mention Jesus name?

Bs"d

Because that is a commandment from God:

"The names of other gods you shall not mention, nor shall your mouth cause it to be heard." Exodus 23:13


Are presenting a new jewish vision obout Jesus?

No, just the old one.


IThere is then no way that a Jew can ever accept*Jesus*as a deity, mediator or savior (messiah), or even as a*prophet, without betraying*Judaism." Schochet, Rabbi J. Emmanuel (29 July 1999). "Judaism*has no place for those who betray their roots". The Canadian Jewish News.

I guess this Rabi above knows that they try to stone Jesus a few times becouse He did and said things only proper to God in the NT...so there is no doubt about that brother!

Are you trying to understand the infinitude of Elohim!?....Great, I believe you are on right track...God bless you In Jesus name...Happy Thanksgiving!

I understand that there is only ONE God who IS ONE, and that is Y-H-W-H. Besides Him there is no God:



Who is the God of Israel? The God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob?

Christianity is very confused about this. A confusion also caused by bad Bible translations. In almost all translations the four lettered name of God, Y-H-W-H, which appears in the Hebrew Bible almost 7000 times, is not mentioned, but replaced by "the LORD".

But here are some Biblical texts which point out WHO is the God of Israel. In these verses the letters of the name of God are written, like in the original Hebrew.


Exodus 29:46 “They will know that I am Y-H-W-H their God, who brought them out of Egypt so that I might dwell among them. I am Y-H-W-H their God.”

Numbers 15:41 “I am Y-H-W-H your God, who brought you out of Egypt to be your God. I am Y-H-W-H your God.”

Deuteronomy 10:20-21 “Fear Y-H-W-H your God and serve him. Hold fast to him and take your oaths in his name. He is your praise; he is your God, who performed for you those great and awesome wonders you saw with your own eyes.”

Joshua 24:18 “We too will serve Y-H-W-H , because he is our God.”

II Samuel 22:32 “For who is God besides Y-H-W-H ?”

I Chronicles 16:14 “He is Y-H-W-H our God; his judgments are in all the earth”

II Chronicles 13:10 “As for us, Y-H-W-H is our God, and we have not forsaken him”

Psalm 31:14 “But I trust in you, O Y-H-W-H; I say, "You are my God.”

Psalm 89:6 “For who in the skies above can compare with Y-H-W-H? Who is like Y-H-W-H among the heavenly beings?”

Psalm 91:2 “I will say of Y-H-W-H , "He is my refuge and my fortress, my God, in whom I trust.”

Psalm 100:3 “Know that Y-H-W-H is God. It is he who made us.”

Psalm 105:7 “He is Y-H-W-H our God; his judgments are in all the earth;”

Psalm 118:27 “Y-H-W-H is God, and he has made his light shine upon us.”

Psalm 140:6 “O Y-H-W-H, I say to you, "You are my God”

Isaiah 25:1 “O Y-H-W-H, you are my God.”

Isaiah 41:13 “For I am Y-H-W-H , your God;”

Isaiah 43:3 “For I am Y-H-W-H , your God, the Holy One of Israel, your Savior;”

Isaiah 51:15 “For I am Y-H-W-H your God, who churns up the sea so that its waves roar- Y-H-W-H Almighty is his name”

Jeremiah 3:22-23 “Yes, we will come to you, for you are Y-H-W-H our God”

Jeremiah 10:10 “But Y-H-W-H is the true God; he is the living God, the eternal King.;”

Jeremiah 31:18 “Restore me, and I will return, because you are Y-H-W-H my God.”

Habakkuk 1:12 “O Y-H-W-H, are you not from everlasting? My God, my Holy One, we will not die.”



And is there, except for this God Y-H-W-H, any other god?



Deuteronomy 4:35 “You were shown these things so that you might know that Y-H-W-H is God; besides him there is no other.”

Deuteronomy 4:39 “Acknowledge and take to heart this day that Y-H-W-H is God in heaven above and on the earth below. There is no other.”

II Samuel 7:22 “How great you are, O Sovereign Y-H-W-H! There is no one like you, and there is no God but you, as we have heard with our own ears.”

I Kings 8:60 “so that all the peoples of the earth may know that Y-H-W-H is God and that there is no other.”

I Chronicles 17:20 “There is no one like you, O Y-H-W-H, and there is no God but you, as we have heard with our own ears.”

II Chronicles 6:14 “O Y-H-W-H, God of Israel, there is no God like you in heaven or on earth.”

Nehemiah 9:6 “You alone are Y-H-W-H.”

Isaiah 45:21-23 “You are my witnesses," declares Y-H-W-H, "and my servant whom I have chosen, so that you may know and believe me and understand that I am he. Before me no god was formed, nor will there be one after me."

Isaiah 44:6 “This is what Y-H-W-H says- Israel's King and Redeemer, Y-H-W-H Almighty: I am the first and I am the last; apart from me there is no God.”

Isaiah 45:5-6 “I am Y-H-W-H , and there is no other; apart from me there is no God. I will strengthen you, though you have not acknowledged me, so that from the rising of the sun to the place of its setting men may know there is none besides me."

Isaiah 45:21-23 “Declare what is to be, present it- let them take counsel together. Who foretold this long ago, who declared it from the distant past? Was it not I, Y-H-W-H? And there is no God apart from me, a righteous God and a Savior; there is none but me. Turn to me and be saved, all you ends of the earth; for I am God, and there is no other.”

Joel 2:27 “Then you will know that I am in Israel, that I am Y-H-W-H your God, and that there is no other;”



Exodus 20:1-3 “And God spoke all these words: "I am Y-H-W-H your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery. YOU SHALL HAVE NO OTHER GODS BEFORE ME.”
.
.
.

iamaberean
November 27th, 2015, 01:46 AM
Bs"d

"Hear Israel, Y-H-W-H is our God, Y-H-W-H is ONE!" Deut 6:4

"Listen, Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is One" Holman Christian Standard Bible

"Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one." English Standard Version

"Hear, O Israel! The LORD is our God, the LORD is one!" New American Standard Bible

"Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one." New International Version

"Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one!" New King James Version"





"And one of the scribes came up and heard them disputing with one another, and seeing that he answered them well, asked him, "Which commandment is the first of all?" Jesus answered, "The first is, `Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, THE LORD IS ONE; and you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind, and with all your strength.' The second is this, `You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' There is no other commandment greater than these." And the scribe said to him, "You are right, Teacher; you have truly said that HE IS ONE, and there is no other but he; and to love him with all the heart, and with all the understanding, and with all the strength, and to love one's neighbor as oneself, is much more than all whole burnt offerings and sacrifices." And when Jesus saw that he answered wisely, he said to him, "You are not far from the kingdom of God."" Mark 12:28-34 Revised Standard Version

“The most important one,” answered Jesus, “is this: ‘Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one." .... "You are right in saying that God is one" New International Version

"Here is the most important one. Moses said, 'Israel, listen to me. The Lord is our God. The Lord is one." .... "You are right in saying that God is one." New International Readers Version

"Jesus answered: Listen, Israel! The Lord our God, The Lord is One." .... "You have correctly said that He is One," Holman Christian Standard Bible

"Jesus answered, The first is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God, the Lord is one:" .... "thou hast well said that he is one;" American Standard Version

"Jesus answered him, “The first of all the commandments is: ‘Hear, O Israel, the LORD our God, the LORD is one." New King James Version

"Jesus answered, "The most important is, 'Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one" .... "You have truly said that he is one," English Standard Version

"Jesus said, "The first in importance is, 'Listen, Israel: The Lord your God is one;" .... "A wonderful answer, Teacher! So lucid and accurate—that God is one" The Message

"‘Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one." .... “You are right in saying that God is one" New International Version





"Now an intermediary implies more than one; but GOD IS ONE." Gal 3:20 Revised Standard Version

"Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but GOD IS ONE" King James Version

"A mediator, however, implies more than one party; but GOD IS ONE." New International Version

"Now an intermediary implies more than one, but GOD IS ONE." English Standard Version

"Now a mediator is not a mediator of one; but GOD IS ONE." American Standard Version

"and the mediator is not of one, and GOD IS ONE" Youngs Literal Translation





"You believe that GOD IS ONE; you do well." James 2:19 Revised Standard Version

"thou -- thou dost believe that GOD IS ONE; thou dost well," Youngs Literal translation

"Thou believest that GOD IS ONE; thou doest well:" American Standard Version

"You believe that GOD IS ONE; you do well." Holman Christian Standard Bible.

"*Thou* believest that GOD IS ONE. Thou doest well." Darby Translation.

"It’s good that you believe that GOD IS ONE." Common English Bible

"You believe that GOD IS ONE; you do well." English Standard Version

"You believe that GOD IS ONE; you do well." Amplified Bible

"You believe that GOD IS ONE You do well;" New American Standard Bible



So the Bible teaches clearly that God is ONE.



"And J-e-h-o-v-a-h shall be King over all the earth: in that day shall J-e-h-o-v-a-h be one, and his name one." Zach 14:9 American Standard Version

"And the LORD shall be King over all the earth. In that day it shall be— “The LORD is one, And His name one." New King James Version

"And the LORD will be king over all the earth. On that day the LORD will be one and his name one." English Standard Version

"And the Lord shall be King over all the earth; in that day the Lord shall be one [in the recognition and worship of men] and His name one." Amplified Bible

.
.
.


It is a mystery to me how one can read the old testament, see that the Jews are told that "the LORD thy God is one LORD', claim to worship the same God as the Jews and in the same breath state they believe in three Gods and then try to back it up with a word (trinity) and scripture that are not in the bible.

I feel it comes from the fact that Jews have been taught from the beginning that there are many gods, but only one Jehovah God. While Christians had no bible to read until the middle ages, and the errors that had been taught up to that point have never completely been overcome.

Elia
November 27th, 2015, 03:37 AM
It is a mystery to me how one can read the old testament, see that the Jews are told that "the LORD thy God is one LORD', claim to worship the same God as the Jews and in the same breath state they believe in three Gods and then try to back it up with a word (trinity) and scripture that are not in the bible.

I feel it comes from the fact that Jews have been taught from the beginning that there are many gods, but only one Jehovah God. While Christians had no bible to read until the middle ages, and the errors that had been taught up to that point have never completely been overcome.


Bs"d

Brainwashing is a very powerful tool. They rather come up with totally ridiculous concepts, like 1 + 1 + 1 = 1, and "Israel = the messiah", and whatever, than admit they are wrong, and Christianity, just like the Islam, is a wrong religion.

But of course, it is very hard too accept the fact that all your life you've been running after the wrong god.

But it is better to turn around half way than to follow the dead end to the very end.



"For all people will walk every one in the name of his god, and we will walk in the name of Y-H-W-H our God for ever and ever.".
Micah 4:5

jamie
November 27th, 2015, 09:40 AM
YOU SHALL HAVE NO OTHER GODS BEFORE ME.


You shall have no other gods before me means the Most High is the supreme God and we must not place anyone or anything ahead of or before him in sequence.

Jesus said the same thing by saying this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God... (John 17:3 NKJV)

The Most High is the only true God in the sense of him never having been anything other than God. The Most High was never a mortal, subject to death.

iamaberean
November 27th, 2015, 11:12 AM
Bs"d

Brainwashing is a very powerful tool. They rather come up with totally ridiculous concepts, like 1 + 1 + 1 = 1, and "Israel = the messiah", and whatever, than admit they are wrong, and Christianity, just like the Islam, is a wrong religion.

But of course, it is very hard too accept the fact that all your life you've been running after the wrong god.

But it is better to turn around half way than to follow the dead end to the very end.



"For all people will walk every one in the name of his god, and we will walk in the name of Y-H-W-H our God for ever and ever.".
Micah 4:5

Elia,

I don't believe the New Testament is untrue, it is just that most Christians don't read it for themselves. They are the ones that appear to make it a false religion.

The Jews have it right until they rejected their messiah, Jesus. That doesn't mean that they are forever lost, not at all. One, Jew or Gentile, can still accept Jesus as their messiah and be saved.

Jesus told Nicodemus that one must be born again or they can not enter into God's kingdom. I can, for a fact, tell you it is a spiritual experience that is so real that to turn away after having experienced it is almost unheard of.

sfontel
November 30th, 2015, 12:11 PM
Bs"d

Because that is a commandment from God:

"The names of other gods you shall not mention, nor shall your mouth cause it to be heard." Exodus 23:13



No, just the old one.



I understand that there is only ONE God who IS ONE, and that is Y-H-W-H. Besides Him there is no God:



Who is the God of Israel? The God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob?

Christianity is very confused about this. A confusion also caused by bad Bible translations. In almost all translations the four lettered name of God, Y-H-W-H, which appears in the Hebrew Bible almost 7000 times, is not mentioned, but replaced by "the LORD".

But here are some Biblical texts which point out WHO is the God of Israel. In these verses the letters of the name of God are written, like in the original Hebrew.


Exodus 29:46 “They will know that I am Y-H-W-H their God, who brought them out of Egypt so that I might dwell among them. I am Y-H-W-H their God.”

Numbers 15:41 “I am Y-H-W-H your God, who brought you out of Egypt to be your God. I am Y-H-W-H your God.”

Deuteronomy 10:20-21 “Fear Y-H-W-H your God and serve him. Hold fast to him and take your oaths in his name. He is your praise; he is your God, who performed for you those great and awesome wonders you saw with your own eyes.”

Joshua 24:18 “We too will serve Y-H-W-H , because he is our God.”

II Samuel 22:32 “For who is God besides Y-H-W-H ?”

I Chronicles 16:14 “He is Y-H-W-H our God; his judgments are in all the earth”

II Chronicles 13:10 “As for us, Y-H-W-H is our God, and we have not forsaken him”

Psalm 31:14 “But I trust in you, O Y-H-W-H; I say, "You are my God.”

Psalm 89:6 “For who in the skies above can compare with Y-H-W-H? Who is like Y-H-W-H among the heavenly beings?”

Psalm 91:2 “I will say of Y-H-W-H , "He is my refuge and my fortress, my God, in whom I trust.”

Psalm 100:3 “Know that Y-H-W-H is God. It is he who made us.”

Psalm 105:7 “He is Y-H-W-H our God; his judgments are in all the earth;”

Psalm 118:27 “Y-H-W-H is God, and he has made his light shine upon us.”

Psalm 140:6 “O Y-H-W-H, I say to you, "You are my God”

Isaiah 25:1 “O Y-H-W-H, you are my God.”

Isaiah 41:13 “For I am Y-H-W-H , your God;”

Isaiah 43:3 “For I am Y-H-W-H , your God, the Holy One of Israel, your Savior;”

Isaiah 51:15 “For I am Y-H-W-H your God, who churns up the sea so that its waves roar- Y-H-W-H Almighty is his name”

Jeremiah 3:22-23 “Yes, we will come to you, for you are Y-H-W-H our God”

Jeremiah 10:10 “But Y-H-W-H is the true God; he is the living God, the eternal King.;”

Jeremiah 31:18 “Restore me, and I will return, because you are Y-H-W-H my God.”

Habakkuk 1:12 “O Y-H-W-H, are you not from everlasting? My God, my Holy One, we will not die.”



And is there, except for this God Y-H-W-H, any other god?



Deuteronomy 4:35 “You were shown these things so that you might know that Y-H-W-H is God; besides him there is no other.”

Deuteronomy 4:39 “Acknowledge and take to heart this day that Y-H-W-H is God in heaven above and on the earth below. There is no other.”

II Samuel 7:22 “How great you are, O Sovereign Y-H-W-H! There is no one like you, and there is no God but you, as we have heard with our own ears.”

I Kings 8:60 “so that all the peoples of the earth may know that Y-H-W-H is God and that there is no other.”

I Chronicles 17:20 “There is no one like you, O Y-H-W-H, and there is no God but you, as we have heard with our own ears.”

II Chronicles 6:14 “O Y-H-W-H, God of Israel, there is no God like you in heaven or on earth.”

Nehemiah 9:6 “You alone are Y-H-W-H.”

Isaiah 45:21-23 “You are my witnesses," declares Y-H-W-H, "and my servant whom I have chosen, so that you may know and believe me and understand that I am he. Before me no god was formed, nor will there be one after me."

Isaiah 44:6 “This is what Y-H-W-H says- Israel's King and Redeemer, Y-H-W-H Almighty: I am the first and I am the last; apart from me there is no God.”

Isaiah 45:5-6 “I am Y-H-W-H , and there is no other; apart from me there is no God. I will strengthen you, though you have not acknowledged me, so that from the rising of the sun to the place of its setting men may know there is none besides me."

Isaiah 45:21-23 “Declare what is to be, present it- let them take counsel together. Who foretold this long ago, who declared it from the distant past? Was it not I, Y-H-W-H? And there is no God apart from me, a righteous God and a Savior; there is none but me. Turn to me and be saved, all you ends of the earth; for I am God, and there is no other.”

Joel 2:27 “Then you will know that I am in Israel, that I am Y-H-W-H your God, and that there is no other;”



Exodus 20:1-3 “And God spoke all these words: "I am Y-H-W-H your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery. YOU SHALL HAVE NO OTHER GODS BEFORE ME.”
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.
.
Can you please pronouce...YHWH? Oh.....you guys lost the pronunciation!........

We substituted for a reason!

Can you tell me what Elohim means?

God bless!

sfontel
November 30th, 2015, 12:23 PM
It is a mystery to me how one can read the old testament, see that the Jews are told that "the LORD thy God is one LORD', claim to worship the same God as the Jews and in the same breath state they believe in three Gods and then try to back it up with a word (trinity) and scripture that are not in the bible.

I feel it comes from the fact that Jews have been taught from the beginning that there are many gods, but only one Jehovah God. While Christians had no bible to read until the middle ages, and the errors that had been taught up to that point have never completely been overcome.

YHWH.....always punished Israel for sinning against Him....and consequently sending them into exilo...

Did he used the Romans in 65 AD. too? Or was just coincidency?

Well I believe was a Christian iniciative that gave birth to Israel in 1948 again....yet you dont believe in prophecy right!?

God bless my friend....in Jesus name! The God of Abraham, Isac and Jocob!

Yes God is One! Elohim!

jamie
November 30th, 2015, 01:22 PM
Yes, God is one just like the brethren of Jesus Christ are one body made up of many members.


For in fact the body is not one member but many. (1 Corinthians 12:14 NKJV)

Elia
November 30th, 2015, 11:19 PM
The Jews have it right until they rejected their messiah, Jesus.[/COLOR]

Bs"d

Why would anybody accept a messiah who didn't fulfil the messianic prophecies?



"For all people will walk every one in the name of his god, and we will walk in the name of Y-H-W-H our God for ever and ever.".
Micah 4:5

Elia
November 30th, 2015, 11:21 PM
Can you please pronouce...YHWH? Oh.....you guys lost the pronunciation!........

We substituted for a reason!

Can you tell me what Elohim means?

God bless!

Bs"d

"Elohiem" means "powers".

And replacing God for another is idolatry.



"For all people will walk every one in the name of his god, and we will walk in the name of Y-H-W-H our God for ever and ever.".
Micah 4:5

Elia
November 30th, 2015, 11:23 PM
Yes, God is one just like the brethren of Jesus Christ are one body made up of many members.


For in fact the body is not one member but many. (1 Corinthians 12:14 NKJV)

Bs"d

God is not made up of many; GOD IS ONE!

"Hear Israel, Y-H-W-H is our God, Y-H-W-H is ONE!" Deut 6:4

"Listen, Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is One" Holman Christian Standard Bible

"Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one." English Standard Version

"Hear, O Israel! The LORD is our God, the LORD is one!" New American Standard Bible

"Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one." New International Version

"Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one!" New King James Version"





"And one of the scribes came up and heard them disputing with one another, and seeing that he answered them well, asked him, "Which commandment is the first of all?" Jesus answered, "The first is, `Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, THE LORD IS ONE; and you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind, and with all your strength.' The second is this, `You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' There is no other commandment greater than these." And the scribe said to him, "You are right, Teacher; you have truly said that HE IS ONE, and there is no other but he; and to love him with all the heart, and with all the understanding, and with all the strength, and to love one's neighbor as oneself, is much more than all whole burnt offerings and sacrifices." And when Jesus saw that he answered wisely, he said to him, "You are not far from the kingdom of God."" Mark 12:28-34 Revised Standard Version

“The most important one,” answered Jesus, “is this: ‘Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one." .... "You are right in saying that God is one" New International Version

"Here is the most important one. Moses said, 'Israel, listen to me. The Lord is our God. The Lord is one." .... "You are right in saying that God is one." New International Readers Version

"Jesus answered: Listen, Israel! The Lord our God, The Lord is One." .... "You have correctly said that He is One," Holman Christian Standard Bible

"Jesus answered, The first is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God, the Lord is one:" .... "thou hast well said that he is one;" American Standard Version

"Jesus answered him, “The first of all the commandments is: ‘Hear, O Israel, the LORD our God, the LORD is one." New King James Version

"Jesus answered, "The most important is, 'Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one" .... "You have truly said that he is one," English Standard Version

"Jesus said, "The first in importance is, 'Listen, Israel: The Lord your God is one;" .... "A wonderful answer, Teacher! So lucid and accurate—that God is one" The Message

"‘Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one." .... “You are right in saying that God is one" New International Version





"Now an intermediary implies more than one; but GOD IS ONE." Gal 3:20 Revised Standard Version

"Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but GOD IS ONE" King James Version

"A mediator, however, implies more than one party; but GOD IS ONE." New International Version

"Now an intermediary implies more than one, but GOD IS ONE." English Standard Version

"Now a mediator is not a mediator of one; but GOD IS ONE." American Standard Version

"and the mediator is not of one, and GOD IS ONE" Youngs Literal Translation





"You believe that GOD IS ONE; you do well." James 2:19 Revised Standard Version

"thou -- thou dost believe that GOD IS ONE; thou dost well," Youngs Literal translation

"Thou believest that GOD IS ONE; thou doest well:" American Standard Version

"You believe that GOD IS ONE; you do well." Holman Christian Standard Bible.

"*Thou* believest that GOD IS ONE. Thou doest well." Darby Translation.

"It’s good that you believe that GOD IS ONE." Common English Bible

"You believe that GOD IS ONE; you do well." English Standard Version

"You believe that GOD IS ONE; you do well." Amplified Bible

"You believe that GOD IS ONE You do well;" New American Standard Bible



So the Bible teaches clearly that God is ONE.



"And J-e-h-o-v-a-h shall be King over all the earth: in that day shall J-e-h-o-v-a-h be one, and his name one." Zach 14:9 American Standard Version

"And the LORD shall be King over all the earth. In that day it shall be— “The LORD is one, And His name one." New King James Version

"And the LORD will be king over all the earth. On that day the LORD will be one and his name one." English Standard Version

"And the Lord shall be King over all the earth; in that day the Lord shall be one and His name one." Amplified Bible



[I]"For all people will walk every one in the name of his god, and we will walk in the name of Y-H-W-H our God for ever and ever.".
Micah 4:5

Elia
November 30th, 2015, 11:26 PM
YHWH.....always punished Israel for sinning against Him....and consequently sending them into exilo...

Did he used the Romans in 65 AD. too? Or was just coincidency?

Bs"d

God used the Romans to punish the Jews.


Well I believe was a Christian iniciative that gave birth to Israel in 1948 again....yet you dont believe in prophecy right!?

The holocaust was also a Christian initiative.

It was and is God who is bringing the Jews back to the land of which He swore to Abraham to give it to his offspring.


God bless my friend....in Jesus name! The God of Abraham, Isac and Jocob!

Yes God is One! Elohim!

You are mixed up about who is the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

Let me clarify this point for you:



Who is the God of Israel? The God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob?

Christianity is very confused about this. A confusion also caused by bad Bible translations. In almost all translations the four lettered name of God, Y-H-W-H, which appears in the Hebrew Bible almost 7000 times, is not mentioned, but replaced by "the LORD".

But here are some Biblical texts which point out WHO is the God of Israel. In these verses the letters of the name of God are written, like in the original Hebrew.


Exodus 29:46 “They will know that I am Y-H-W-H their God, who brought them out of Egypt so that I might dwell among them. I am Y-H-W-H their God.”

Numbers 15:41 “I am Y-H-W-H your God, who brought you out of Egypt to be your God. I am Y-H-W-H your God.”

Deuteronomy 10:20-21 “Fear Y-H-W-H your God and serve him. Hold fast to him and take your oaths in his name. He is your praise; he is your God, who performed for you those great and awesome wonders you saw with your own eyes.”

Joshua 24:18 “We too will serve Y-H-W-H , because he is our God.”

II Samuel 22:32 “For who is God besides Y-H-W-H ?”

I Chronicles 16:14 “He is Y-H-W-H our God; his judgments are in all the earth”

II Chronicles 13:10 “As for us, Y-H-W-H is our God, and we have not forsaken him”

Psalm 31:14 “But I trust in you, O Y-H-W-H; I say, "You are my God.”

Psalm 89:6 “For who in the skies above can compare with Y-H-W-H? Who is like Y-H-W-H among the heavenly beings?”

Psalm 91:2 “I will say of Y-H-W-H , "He is my refuge and my fortress, my God, in whom I trust.”

Psalm 100:3 “Know that Y-H-W-H is God. It is he who made us.”

Psalm 105:7 “He is Y-H-W-H our God; his judgments are in all the earth;”

Psalm 118:27 “Y-H-W-H is God, and he has made his light shine upon us.”

Psalm 140:6 “O Y-H-W-H, I say to you, "You are my God”

Isaiah 25:1 “O Y-H-W-H, you are my God.”

Isaiah 41:13 “For I am Y-H-W-H , your God;”

Isaiah 43:3 “For I am Y-H-W-H , your God, the Holy One of Israel, your Savior;”

Isaiah 51:15 “For I am Y-H-W-H your God, who churns up the sea so that its waves roar- Y-H-W-H Almighty is his name”

Jeremiah 3:22-23 “Yes, we will come to you, for you are Y-H-W-H our God”

Jeremiah 10:10 “But Y-H-W-H is the true God; he is the living God, the eternal King.;”

Jeremiah 31:18 “Restore me, and I will return, because you are Y-H-W-H my God.”

Habakkuk 1:12 “O Y-H-W-H, are you not from everlasting? My God, my Holy One, we will not die.”



And is there, except for this God Y-H-W-H, any other god?



Deuteronomy 4:35 “You were shown these things so that you might know that Y-H-W-H is God; besides him there is no other.”

Deuteronomy 4:39 “Acknowledge and take to heart this day that Y-H-W-H is God in heaven above and on the earth below. There is no other.”

II Samuel 7:22 “How great you are, O Sovereign Y-H-W-H! There is no one like you, and there is no God but you, as we have heard with our own ears.”

I Kings 8:60 “so that all the peoples of the earth may know that Y-H-W-H is God and that there is no other.”

I Chronicles 17:20 “There is no one like you, O Y-H-W-H, and there is no God but you, as we have heard with our own ears.”

II Chronicles 6:14 “O Y-H-W-H, God of Israel, there is no God like you in heaven or on earth.”

Nehemiah 9:6 “You alone are Y-H-W-H.”

Isaiah 45:21-23 “You are my witnesses," declares Y-H-W-H, "and my servant whom I have chosen, so that you may know and believe me and understand that I am he. Before me no god was formed, nor will there be one after me."

Isaiah 44:6 “This is what Y-H-W-H says- Israel's King and Redeemer, Y-H-W-H Almighty: I am the first and I am the last; apart from me there is no God.”

Isaiah 45:5-6 “I am Y-H-W-H , and there is no other; apart from me there is no God. I will strengthen you, though you have not acknowledged me, so that from the rising of the sun to the place of its setting men may know there is none besides me."

Isaiah 45:21-23 “Declare what is to be, present it- let them take counsel together. Who foretold this long ago, who declared it from the distant past? Was it not I, Y-H-W-H? And there is no God apart from me, a righteous God and a Savior; there is none but me. Turn to me and be saved, all you ends of the earth; for I am God, and there is no other.”

Joel 2:27 “Then you will know that I am in Israel, that I am Y-H-W-H your God, and that there is no other;”



Exodus 20:1-3 “And God spoke all these words: "I am Y-H-W-H your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery. YOU SHALL HAVE NO OTHER GODS BEFORE ME.”

sfontel
November 30th, 2015, 11:28 PM
Bs"d

"Elohiem" means "powers".

And replacing God for another is idolatry.



"For all people will walk every one in the name of his god, and we will walk in the name of Y-H-W-H our God for ever and ever.".
Micah 4:5
My brother!

Thanks for making my point....

For not answering my question....

An being a double stand.....

You canfessed exactly what you denied my friend....

God bless!

sfontel
November 30th, 2015, 11:41 PM
Bs"d

God used the Romans to punish the Jews.



The holocaust was also a Christian initiative.

It was and is God who is bringing the Jews back to the land of which He swore to Abraham to give it to his offspring.



You are mixed up about who is the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

Let me clarify this point for you:



Who is the God of Israel? The God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob?

Christianity is very confused about this. A confusion also caused by bad Bible translations. In almost all translations the four lettered name of God, Y-H-W-H, which appears in the Hebrew Bible almost 7000 times, is not mentioned, but replaced by "the LORD".

But here are some Biblical texts which point out WHO is the God of Israel. In these verses the letters of the name of God are written, like in the original Hebrew.


Exodus 29:46 “They will know that I am Y-H-W-H their God, who brought them out of Egypt so that I might dwell among them. I am Y-H-W-H their God.”

Numbers 15:41 “I am Y-H-W-H your God, who brought you out of Egypt to be your God. I am Y-H-W-H your God.”

Deuteronomy 10:20-21 “Fear Y-H-W-H your God and serve him. Hold fast to him and take your oaths in his name. He is your praise; he is your God, who performed for you those great and awesome wonders you saw with your own eyes.”

Joshua 24:18 “We too will serve Y-H-W-H , because he is our God.”

II Samuel 22:32 “For who is God besides Y-H-W-H ?”

I Chronicles 16:14 “He is Y-H-W-H our God; his judgments are in all the earth”

II Chronicles 13:10 “As for us, Y-H-W-H is our God, and we have not forsaken him”

Psalm 31:14 “But I trust in you, O Y-H-W-H; I say, "You are my God.”

Psalm 89:6 “For who in the skies above can compare with Y-H-W-H? Who is like Y-H-W-H among the heavenly beings?”

Psalm 91:2 “I will say of Y-H-W-H , "He is my refuge and my fortress, my God, in whom I trust.”

Psalm 100:3 “Know that Y-H-W-H is God. It is he who made us.”

Psalm 105:7 “He is Y-H-W-H our God; his judgments are in all the earth;”

Psalm 118:27 “Y-H-W-H is God, and he has made his light shine upon us.”

Psalm 140:6 “O Y-H-W-H, I say to you, "You are my God”

Isaiah 25:1 “O Y-H-W-H, you are my God.”

Isaiah 41:13 “For I am Y-H-W-H , your God;”

Isaiah 43:3 “For I am Y-H-W-H , your God, the Holy One of Israel, your Savior;”

Isaiah 51:15 “For I am Y-H-W-H your God, who churns up the sea so that its waves roar- Y-H-W-H Almighty is his name”

Jeremiah 3:22-23 “Yes, we will come to you, for you are Y-H-W-H our God”

Jeremiah 10:10 “But Y-H-W-H is the true God; he is the living God, the eternal King.;”

Jeremiah 31:18 “Restore me, and I will return, because you are Y-H-W-H my God.”

Habakkuk 1:12 “O Y-H-W-H, are you not from everlasting? My God, my Holy One, we will not die.”



And is there, except for this God Y-H-W-H, any other god?



Deuteronomy 4:35 “You were shown these things so that you might know that Y-H-W-H is God; besides him there is no other.”

Deuteronomy 4:39 “Acknowledge and take to heart this day that Y-H-W-H is God in heaven above and on the earth below. There is no other.”

II Samuel 7:22 “How great you are, O Sovereign Y-H-W-H! There is no one like you, and there is no God but you, as we have heard with our own ears.”

I Kings 8:60 “so that all the peoples of the earth may know that Y-H-W-H is God and that there is no other.”

I Chronicles 17:20 “There is no one like you, O Y-H-W-H, and there is no God but you, as we have heard with our own ears.”

II Chronicles 6:14 “O Y-H-W-H, God of Israel, there is no God like you in heaven or on earth.”

Nehemiah 9:6 “You alone are Y-H-W-H.”

Isaiah 45:21-23 “You are my witnesses," declares Y-H-W-H, "and my servant whom I have chosen, so that you may know and believe me and understand that I am he. Before me no god was formed, nor will there be one after me."

Isaiah 44:6 “This is what Y-H-W-H says- Israel's King and Redeemer, Y-H-W-H Almighty: I am the first and I am the last; apart from me there is no God.”

Isaiah 45:5-6 “I am Y-H-W-H , and there is no other; apart from me there is no God. I will strengthen you, though you have not acknowledged me, so that from the rising of the sun to the place of its setting men may know there is none besides me."

Isaiah 45:21-23 “Declare what is to be, present it- let them take counsel together. Who foretold this long ago, who declared it from the distant past? Was it not I, Y-H-W-H? And there is no God apart from me, a righteous God and a Savior; there is none but me. Turn to me and be saved, all you ends of the earth; for I am God, and there is no other.”

Joel 2:27 “Then you will know that I am in Israel, that I am Y-H-W-H your God, and that there is no other;”



Exodus 20:1-3 “And God spoke all these words: "I am Y-H-W-H your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery. YOU SHALL HAVE NO OTHER GODS BEFORE ME.”
My friend quick question...Do you believe in the coming of the Messaiah or instead you believe as a few Rabi's, that the OT does not say anything specific about the Messaiah?...so there is no importance?....

By do way I said Elohim...

God bless!

sfontel
November 30th, 2015, 11:47 PM
By the way, the holocaust was the iniciative of a pseudo-Christian and not a true follower of Jesus....

The ideia of killing and following Jesus are contrary to each other...there are no basis for such action in the NT..

But there are many exemples of true Christians, that put their heads on the line to hide many Jews in their own houses....to the extend that many lost their lifes for such true actions!

God bless!

patrick jane
November 30th, 2015, 11:53 PM
By the way, the holocaust was the iniciative of a pseudo-Christian and not a true follower of Jesus....

The ideia of killing and following Jesus are contrary to each other...there are no basis for such action in the NT..

But there are many exemplos of true Chriatians that put their heads on the line to hide many Jews in their own house....to the extend that many also lost their lifes for such true acts!

God bless!

You don't speak english do you ?

patrick jane
November 30th, 2015, 11:54 PM
meshak ?:confused:

sfontel
November 30th, 2015, 11:56 PM
meshak ?:confused:
Lol.....its not my primary linguage...I do all I can!

Thanks...God Bless!

Elia
November 30th, 2015, 11:58 PM
By the way, the holocaust was the iniciative of a pseudo-Christian and not a true follower of Jesus....


Bs"d

Sure, all the evil done by Christians is discarded as them being "not real Christians".

But they themselves think different. They think they were the real Christians.

And real or not real, it are the Christians who have a 2000 year track record of discriminating, deporting, torturing, and burning Jews.

"A tree is known by its fruit" ....



"For all people will walk every one in the name of his god, and we will walk in the name of Y-H-W-H our God for ever and ever.".
Micah 4:5

Elia
December 1st, 2015, 12:04 AM
My friend quick question...Do you believe in the coming of the Messaiah

Bs"d

There are 13 principles of Jewish faith that every Jew must believe in: http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/332555/jewish/Maimonides-13-Principles-of-Faith.htm

Nr 12 says: 12. The belief in the arrival of the Messiah and the messianic era.


or instead you believe as a few Rabi's, that the OT does not say anything specific about the Messaiah?...so there is no importance?....

The messiah concept is a minor point.

The Tanach gives a number of messianic prophecies, and the all of 'm are not fulfilled.

That's how we know the messiah didn't come yet.



"For all people will walk every one in the name of his god, and we will walk in the name of Y-H-W-H our God for ever and ever.".
Micah 4:5

sfontel
December 1st, 2015, 12:14 AM
Bs"d

Sure, all the evil done by Christians is discarded as them being "not real Christians".

It is true....a lot have been done wrong in the name of Christ....

Will Christ take part of this actions on the last day? Absolutly not...He will say....I dont know you!


But they themselves think different. They think they were the real Christians.

Yes they do...but they have the NT to guide them with no execuses! But surely, they dont know anything about it...or they manuver it in order to use and justify their actions!

And real or not real, it are the Christians who have a 2000 year track record of discriminating, deporting, torturing, and burning Jews.

Yes, but be carefull when you put all Christians in the same basket! In doing so, you are no better than this with poor record!

"A tree is known by its fruit" ....

Correct, thats why salvation is meant to be individual and not by groups...

Each and everyone of us will be responsable for are own fruits...

And without the blood....even if there are good fruits it wont be accept as the offers of Abel and Cain!


"For all people will walk every one in the name of his god, and we will walk in the name of Y-H-W-H our God for ever and ever.".
Micah 4:5

God bless!

Elia
December 1st, 2015, 12:25 AM
It is true....a lot have been done wrong in the name of Christ....

Bs"d

The tree of Christianity has produces a lot of poisoned fruit.


But they themselves think different. They think they were the real Christians.

Yes they do...but they have the NT to guide them with no execuses!

This is what the NT teaches:

In Luke 19:27 Jesus says: "But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me."-

This surely is a very strange way of loving your enemies. This statement was a motivation for the crusaders to slaughter many Jewish communities.

Another poor example of loving your enemies is John 15:6 : "If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered, and man gather them together and cast them into the fire, and they are burned."
This terrible statement is later used by the Catholic Church to justify their practice of burning Jews alive at the stake.

sfontel
December 1st, 2015, 12:39 AM
Bs"d

The tree of Christianity has produces a lot of poisoned fruit.

Yes, and Jesus Himself said this would happen...

This is what the NT teaches:

In Luke 19:27 Jesus says: "But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me."-

You are doing axactly what I said...this is an parable...its not to be understood literaly nor a commandment/punishment for the present time....

Is the same as saying "To revenge belong to the Lord"


This surely is a very strange way of loving your enemies. This statement was a motivation for the crusaders to slaughter many Jewish communities.

Again, this is related to Judgment day....and not comom era...just read the contex and there is no doubt...

Another poor example of loving your enemies is John 15:6 : "If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered, and man gather them together and cast them into the fire, and they are burned."

And they will be cast out....but at the end of times...for now let the good and bad seed grow toguether for harvest at the last day...
This terrible statement is later used by the Catholic Church to justify their practice of burning Jews alive at the stake.

Yeh....popemancy...has its fouls..

Elohim is One!

sfontel
December 1st, 2015, 01:18 AM
Bs"d

There are 13 principles of Jewish faith that every Jew must believe in: http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/332555/jewish/Maimonides-13-Principles-of-Faith.htm

Nr 12 says: 12. The belief in the arrival of the Messiah and the messianic era.



The messiah concept is a minor point.

The Tanach gives a number of messianic prophecies, and the all of 'm are not fulfilled.

That's how we know the messiah didn't come yet.



"For all people will walk every one in the name of his god, and we will walk in the name of Y-H-W-H our God for ever and ever.".
Micah 4:5
I went there and read it all....

#4 I think uses a word that does not apper in the hebrew bible

Also I think the Rabi makes assumptions....I believe He is trying to get it right...

Let ask you a question...Could the Rabi tell God that He can not become Human if He wants?

God bless! Adonai!

Elia
December 1st, 2015, 05:52 AM
Let ask you a question...Could the Rabi tell God that He can not become Human if He wants?

Bs"d

No. But God tells us that He is not a human being:

"God is not human, that he should lie" Num 23:19

"He who is the Glory of Israel does not lie or change his mind; for he is not a human being, that he should change his mind.” 1 Samuel 15:29

"For I am God, and not a man— the Holy One among you." Hosea 11:9

And the problem is not only that you worship a human being, but that you also worship his Father, and by doing that you worship two gods, and that is polytheism and idolatry.

"Serve Y-H-W-H! And if it seems evil to you to serve Y-H-W-H, choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the River, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you dwell.
But as for me and my house, we will serve Y-H-W-H!.”
Joshua 24:14-15

Elia
December 1st, 2015, 05:54 AM
Yeh....popemancy...has its fouls..

Elohim is One!

Bs"d




שמע ישראל י-ה-ו-ה אלהנו י-ה-ו-ה אחד

Hear Israel, Y-H-W-H is our God, Y-H-W-H is ONE.

And you shall love Y-H-W-H your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your might.
And these words which I command you this day shall be upon your heart;
and you shall teach them diligently to your children, and shall talk of them when you sit in your house, and when you walk by the way, and when you lie down, and when you rise.
And you shall bind them as a sign upon your hand, and they shall be as frontlets between your eyes.
And you shall write them on the doorposts of your house and on your gates.
Deut 6:4-9

The Jews until this day fulfill this commandment. Every morning they put upon their arm and upon their forehead their phylacteries, (prayer belts) that consist of black straps with black leather cubes, that contain parchment upon which is written this Biblical text that says that God is one. Upon the doorposts of the houses of the religious Jews there are small boxes or containers that also contain parchment upon which is written that God is one. During the morning and evening prayers the above text is recited which says that God is one.





"For all people will walk every one in the name of his god, and we will walk in the name of Y-H-W-H our God for ever and ever.".
Micah 4:5

sfontel
December 1st, 2015, 09:57 AM
Bs"d




שמע ישראל י-ה-ו-ה אלהנו י-ה-ו-ה אחד

Hear Israel, Y-H-W-H is our God, Y-H-W-H is ONE.

And you shall love Y-H-W-H your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your might.
And these words which I command you this day shall be upon your heart;
and you shall teach them diligently to your children, and shall talk of them when you sit in your house, and when you walk by the way, and when you lie down, and when you rise.
And you shall bind them as a sign upon your hand, and they shall be as frontlets between your eyes.
And you shall write them on the doorposts of your house and on your gates.
Deut 6:4-9

The Jews until this day fulfill this commandment. Every morning they put upon their arm and upon their forehead their phylacteries, (prayer belts) that consist of black straps with black leather cubes, that contain parchment upon which is written this Biblical text that says that God is one. Upon the doorposts of the houses of the religious Jews there are small boxes or containers that also contain parchment upon which is written that God is one. During the morning and evening prayers the above text is recited which says that God is one.





"For all people will walk every one in the name of his god, and we will walk in the name of Y-H-W-H our God for ever and ever.".
Micah 4:5
So he lifted his eyes and looked, and behold, three men were standing by him; and when he saw them, he ran from the tent door to meet them, and bowed himself to the ground, Then the men turned away from there and went toward Sodom, but Abraham still stood before the Lord .Gn. 18:2-22

Why can you not interpret scripture as is?

Prior I asked if a Rabi could tell God that He could not become man and your answer was perfect!

Now, verse 18:2 clearly states that were 3 man! so there is no confusion upon....

Then some how, after Abraham made some FOOD, and WASH their feet.....clearly human actions....some how one of the 3 men is now the YHWH! in the verse 22!


This situation is ONE of many trought out the Hebrew Bible.....

....does the situation above contradicts the verses as rightly states...

"God is not human"....

"GOD IS UNKNOW and beyond HORIZON"

"I AM WHAT I AM" = YHWH

Can you please think with criticism?

The bible says He is not humam! 100% solo humam! and this is true and just a matter of logic...we dont even need scripture to tell us that! If He is human...he is just like US...

Also, we know is that is absolutly agains scriputure and logical interpretation to say that "YHWH" can not take human form! As the exemple above is one of many encounters when regular man comes face to face with The One and true God...not a regular man!.....

My brother.....God is and will always be God! Even if He becomes flesh and bone..., HE IS AND WILL REMAIN GOD.....I think its safe to say that He cant die too!...Lol But the flesh and bones can!

Is there anyway else to understand this my friend!?

Who is The Angel of the Lord?

By which means this should happen other than by the very exemple I gave you?

For unto us a Child is born, Unto us a Son is given; And the government will be upon His shoulder. And His name will be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace. Of the increase of His government and peace There will be no end, Upon the throne of David and over His kingdom, To order it and establish it with judgment and justice From that time forward, even forever. The zeal of the Lord of hosts will perform this. Is 9:6-7!

God bless my friend..."An the people the were in darkness a Light appered!"

sfontel
December 1st, 2015, 10:58 PM
Bs"d




שמע ישראל י-ה-ו-ה אלהנו י-ה-ו-ה אחד

Hear Israel, Y-H-W-H is our God, Y-H-W-H is ONE.

And you shall love Y-H-W-H your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your might.
And these words which I command you this day shall be upon your heart;
and you shall teach them diligently to your children, and shall talk of them when you sit in your house, and when you walk by the way, and when you lie down, and when you rise.
And you shall bind them as a sign upon your hand, and they shall be as frontlets between your eyes.
And you shall write them on the doorposts of your house and on your gates.
Deut 6:4-9

The Jews until this day fulfill this commandment. Every morning they put upon their arm and upon their forehead their phylacteries, (prayer belts) that consist of black straps with black leather cubes, that contain parchment upon which is written this Biblical text that says that God is one. Upon the doorposts of the houses of the religious Jews there are small boxes or containers that also contain parchment upon which is written that God is one. During the morning and evening prayers the above text is recited which says that God is one.





"For all people will walk every one in the name of his god, and we will walk in the name of Y-H-W-H our God for ever and ever.".
Micah 4:5
Hey brother! Have you understood the explanaition of the last post!?

Today I went over all the older posts to understand the situation better and figure how we got where we are now....

It was intresting!

For now...I am praying for you! God bless you in Jesus name! Rm 8:28!

jamie
December 1st, 2015, 11:06 PM
Why would anybody accept a messiah who didn't fulfil the messianic prophecies?


Everything will be okay in the end. If things are not okay then it's not the end.

Elia
December 1st, 2015, 11:23 PM
So he lifted his eyes and looked, and behold, three men were standing by him; and when he saw them, he ran from the tent door to meet them, and bowed himself to the ground, Then the men turned away from there and went toward Sodom, but Abraham still stood before the Lord .Gn. 18:2-22

Why can you not interpret scripture as is?

Bs"d

Is an angel a man?

Just keep on reading from Gen 18, to the beginning of chapter 19, and there you see that at least 2 of the the 3 men were angels.

So God is not three man. God is not a man at all, just like the angels were not men.


Prior I asked if a Rabi could tell God that He could not become man and your answer was perfect!

Now, verse 18:2 clearly states that were 3 man! so there is no confusion upon....

Gen 19:1 "Now the two angels came to Sodom in the evening, and Lot was sitting in the gate of Sodom."


Then some how, after Abraham made some FOOD, and WASH their feet.....clearly human actions....some how one of the 3 men is now the YHWH! in the verse 22!

No, they were three angels.

God visited Abraham separate from the angels.


This situation is ONE of many trought out the Hebrew Bible.....

....does the situation above contradicts the verses as rightly states...

"God is not human"....

Were the angels human? Of course not. The just appeared to be human.


Who is The Angel of the Lord?

The Hebrew word translated with "angel" is "messenger", and like that it is always translated, except when it talks about a messenger of God, then it is translated as "angel".

So the angel of God is a messenger of God.


For unto us a Child is born, Unto us a Son is given; And the government will be upon His shoulder. And His name will be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace. Of the increase of His government and peace There will be no end, Upon the throne of David and over His kingdom, To order it and establish it with judgment and justice From that time forward, even forever. The zeal of the Lord of hosts will perform this. Is 9:6-7!

God bless my friend..."An the people the were in darkness a Light appered!"

Isaiah 9:2-7 "2 The people who walked in darkness have seen a great light; those who dwelt in a land of deep darkness, on them has light shined. 3 Thou hast multiplied the nation, thou hast increased its joy; they rejoice before thee as with joy at the harvest, as men rejoice when they divide the spoil. 4 For the yoke of his burden, and the staff for his shoulder, the rod of his oppressor, thou hast broken as on the day of Mid'ian. 5 For every boot of the tramping warrior in battle tumult and every garment rolled in blood will be burned as fuel for the fire. 6 For to us a child is born, to us a son is given; and the government will be upon his shoulder, and his name will be called "Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace". 7 Of the increase of his government and of peace there will be no end, upon the throne of David, and over his kingdom, to establish it, and to uphold it with justice and with righteousness from this time forth and for evermore. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will do this."
Please take notice of the fact that Isaiah is talking in the past tense: "The people who walked in darkness have seen a great light; those who dwelt in a land of deep darkness, on them has light shined.|

"For to us a child is born, to us a son is given; and the government is upon his shoulder, and his name was called "Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace."

These are things which had happened already in the days of Isaiah.

If, despite these facts, you still want to apply these verses to JC, than read verse 5, 6, and 7, and see that JC didn't do any of those things. He never ruled on the throne of David, he never had any government on his shoulders, and there never was endless peace over his kingdom.

The same holds true for the verses 6 and 7: "For to us a child is born, to us a son is given; and the government will be upon his shoulder, and his name will be called "Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace". 7 Of the increase of his government and of peace there will be no end, upon the throne of David, and over his kingdom, to establish it, and to uphold it with justice and with righteousness from this time forth and for evermore. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will do this."

All of this doesn't hold true for JC; he never had any government on his shoulder. And also here is spoken in the past tense: "A child is born, a son is given. But most translations give it in the future tense. For instance the RSV, NIV, NAS, ESV, KJV, NIRV, the all say; "His name will be called ....", future tense. However, in the Hebrew text this too is past tense: "His name was called ...." The Hebrew expression here is "wayikra". That is the first word in the book of Leviticus. And all the previously mentioned translations there say: "And the Lord called Mozes ..." Past tense. Exactly the same the word. Isn't that weird? Exactly the same word is used in Genesis 5:1; "And God called the light 'day'" Called. Past tense. Nobody argues with that one. But why then, in Isaiah 9, is it suddenly changed to future tense? The answer is simple: The past tense doesn't fit with the Christian theology, and therefore the Bible translations are corrupted and twisted to fit the Christian religion. Just like that. There is only one solution for this problem: Take a course in Biblical Hebrew. It is more easy then it looks. Then your eyes will be opened and the Christian deception will stare you in the face. And yes, I do sympathize with the poor misguided Christians whom are being led astray by their clergy by means of twisted and corrupted Bible translations. That's the reason why I fulfill my duty of being a light unto the nations and uncovering the Christian deception.
"Of the increase of his government and of peace there will be no end" "There will be no end", future tense. And this too is WRONG. It is in the Hebrew present tense. I found only one translation which is correct here, and that is Young's Literal Translation.

Why all this stress on the tenses? Isaiah spoke about a king who was living in his days, and therefore JC is out. The king that Isaiah speaks about is Hezekiah, the son of Achaz who got from Isaiah the sign about the young woman (no, not the virgin) who was pregnant and gave birth to the son Immanuel.
The Talmud explains that under the rule of the God fearing Hezekiah the Jewish kingdom rose to great heights, and that's why he was entitled to those impressive titles.


Because of the fact that the name of the son is "Mighty God", (or "God is Mighty", both are possible translations) and "Eternals Father", the Christians deduce that the boy spoken about must have been God.
HOWEVER, a name is only that; a name. A name is not a description of the bearer of that name. An example: Buffalo Bill was not a buffalo. The indian chief Sitting Bull was not a bull.
Many times people in the Bible have in their name the word "God", or the name of God, but that doesn't mean that those people are God. For instance; in Exodus 6:23 is spoken about a man called "Elazar". That means "God is helper", or "Helping God". But that doesn't mean that that man was God.
Exodus 6:24; "Elkanah", that means "God acquired", or "acquiring God". II Samuel 22:19; "Elchanan"; "God is merciful", or "Merciful God". But these men were not God, just like the the child in Isaiah 9 wasn't God.


Apart from that, the Hebrew words "El gibor", in Christian Bibles translated with "Mighty God", can have a different meaning. "El" can mean "God", but it can also mean "judge", "leader", or "mighty man". In Exodus 4:16 God says to Moses that he will be of an elohiem for his brother Aharon. ("elohim" is the longer form of the word "el") This doesn't mean that Moses was a God for Aharon and Aharon started to worship his brother, it meant that Moses would be the leader of Aharon.
In Exodus 21:1-6 is spoken about a slave who after the normal period of servitude ended, doesn't want to leave his master. In that case the owner has to take him to court, where the slave will make a statement that he doesn't want to leave his master, and that he will serve his master until his death. The Hebrew text there says that his master must take him to the "elohim". There the NAS, ASV, ESV, NRSV, RSV, YLT, they all say that his master must take him "to God". However, his master doesn't take him for a ride to heaven, but takes him to the courthouse. Therefore the NIV, KJV, TNIV, and the NIRV, they all say that the master must take him to "the judges".

Even so in Isaiah 9 the word "El" does not necessarily mean "God". Therefore the text in Isaiah 9 is in no way a proof that the child spoken about was God.




"For all people will walk every one in the name of his god, and we will walk in the name of Y-H-W-H our God for ever and ever.".
Micah 4:5

sfontel
December 2nd, 2015, 12:20 AM
Bs"d

Is an angel a man?

Just keep on reading from Gen 18, to the beginning of chapter 19, and there you see that at least 2 of the the 3 men were angels.

So God is not three man. God is not a man at all, just like the angels were not men.



Gen 19:1 "Now the two angels came to Sodom in the evening, and Lot was sitting in the gate of Sodom."



No, they were three angels.

God visited Abraham separate from the angels.



Were the angels human? Of course not. The just appeared to be human.



The Hebrew word translated with "angel" is "messenger", and like that it is always translated, except when it talks about a messenger of God, then it is translated as "angel".

So the angel of God is a messenger of God.



Isaiah 9:2-7 "2 The people who walked in darkness have seen a great light; those who dwelt in a land of deep darkness, on them has light shined. 3 Thou hast multiplied the nation, thou hast increased its joy; they rejoice before thee as with joy at the harvest, as men rejoice when they divide the spoil. 4 For the yoke of his burden, and the staff for his shoulder, the rod of his oppressor, thou hast broken as on the day of Mid'ian. 5 For every boot of the tramping warrior in battle tumult and every garment rolled in blood will be burned as fuel for the fire. 6 For to us a child is born, to us a son is given; and the government will be upon his shoulder, and his name will be called "Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace". 7 Of the increase of his government and of peace there will be no end, upon the throne of David, and over his kingdom, to establish it, and to uphold it with justice and with righteousness from this time forth and for evermore. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will do this."
Please take notice of the fact that Isaiah is talking in the past tense: "The people who walked in darkness have seen a great light; those who dwelt in a land of deep darkness, on them has light shined.|

"For to us a child is born, to us a son is given; and the government is upon his shoulder, and his name was called "Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace."

These are things which had happened already in the days of Isaiah.

If, despite these facts, you still want to apply these verses to JC, than read verse 5, 6, and 7, and see that JC didn't do any of those things. He never ruled on the throne of David, he never had any government on his shoulders, and there never was endless peace over his kingdom.

The same holds true for the verses 6 and 7: "For to us a child is born, to us a son is given; and the government will be upon his shoulder, and his name will be called "Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace". 7 Of the increase of his government and of peace there will be no end, upon the throne of David, and over his kingdom, to establish it, and to uphold it with justice and with righteousness from this time forth and for evermore. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will do this."

All of this doesn't hold true for JC; he never had any government on his shoulder. And also here is spoken in the past tense: "A child is born, a son is given. But most translations give it in the future tense. For instance the RSV, NIV, NAS, ESV, KJV, NIRV, the all say; "His name will be called ....", future tense. However, in the Hebrew text this too is past tense: "His name was called ...." The Hebrew expression here is "wayikra". That is the first word in the book of Leviticus. And all the previously mentioned translations there say: "And the Lord called Mozes ..." Past tense. Exactly the same the word. Isn't that weird? Exactly the same word is used in Genesis 5:1; "And God called the light 'day'" Called. Past tense. Nobody argues with that one. But why then, in Isaiah 9, is it suddenly changed to future tense? The answer is simple: The past tense doesn't fit with the Christian theology, and therefore the Bible translations are corrupted and twisted to fit the Christian religion. Just like that. There is only one solution for this problem: Take a course in Biblical Hebrew. It is more easy then it looks. Then your eyes will be opened and the Christian deception will stare you in the face. And yes, I do sympathize with the poor misguided Christians whom are being led astray by their clergy by means of twisted and corrupted Bible translations. That's the reason why I fulfill my duty of being a light unto the nations and uncovering the Christian deception.
"Of the increase of his government and of peace there will be no end" "There will be no end", future tense. And this too is WRONG. It is in the Hebrew present tense. I found only one translation which is correct here, and that is Young's Literal Translation.

Why all this stress on the tenses? Isaiah spoke about a king who was living in his days, and therefore JC is out. The king that Isaiah speaks about is Hezekiah, the son of Achaz who got from Isaiah the sign about the young woman (no, not the virgin) who was pregnant and gave birth to the son Immanuel.
The Talmud explains that under the rule of the God fearing Hezekiah the Jewish kingdom rose to great heights, and that's why he was entitled to those impressive titles.


Because of the fact that the name of the son is "Mighty God", (or "God is Mighty", both are possible translations) and "Eternals Father", the Christians deduce that the boy spoken about must have been God.
HOWEVER, a name is only that; a name. A name is not a description of the bearer of that name. An example: Buffalo Bill was not a buffalo. The indian chief Sitting Bull was not a bull.
Many times people in the Bible have in their name the word "God", or the name of God, but that doesn't mean that those people are God. For instance; in Exodus 6:23 is spoken about a man called "Elazar". That means "God is helper", or "Helping God". But that doesn't mean that that man was God.
Exodus 6:24; "Elkanah", that means "God acquired", or "acquiring God". II Samuel 22:19; "Elchanan"; "God is merciful", or "Merciful God". But these men were not God, just like the the child in Isaiah 9 wasn't God.


Apart from that, the Hebrew words "El gibor", in Christian Bibles translated with "Mighty God", can have a different meaning. "El" can mean "God", but it can also mean "judge", "leader", or "mighty man". In Exodus 4:16 God says to Moses that he will be of an elohiem for his brother Aharon. ("elohim" is the longer form of the word "el") This doesn't mean that Moses was a God for Aharon and Aharon started to worship his brother, it meant that Moses would be the leader of Aharon.
In Exodus 21:1-6 is spoken about a slave who after the normal period of servitude ended, doesn't want to leave his master. In that case the owner has to take him to court, where the slave will make a statement that he doesn't want to leave his master, and that he will serve his master until his death. The Hebrew text there says that his master must take him to the "elohim". There the NAS, ASV, ESV, NRSV, RSV, YLT, they all say that his master must take him "to God". However, his master doesn't take him for a ride to heaven, but takes him to the courthouse. Therefore the NIV, KJV, TNIV, and the NIRV, they all say that the master must take him to "the judges".

Even so in Isaiah 9 the word "El" does not necessarily mean "God". Therefore the text in Isaiah 9 is in no way a proof that the child spoken about was God.




"For all people will walk every one in the name of his god, and we will walk in the name of Y-H-W-H our God for ever and ever.".
Micah 4:5
My eyes just cant believe what you just did....Lol...

How much twist to make the word of God say what you want to say!

You are doing exactly what you condemn catholics of doing!

Its incredible...its so incredible that is actualy funny!...Lol...

Love you brother....

First...I never made a conection of the 3 men with trinity!...Lol...

Second....you begin by saying that 2 out of 3 were angels....

Than after you say all 3 were angels!...lol

Two went to check on Sodoma and Gomorra...Where is the 3rd????

oh went back to haven!...lol

That One that stays behind in which Abraham gets closer and starts a dialogue with...He is Called YHWH!.......

The passage does not say what you want to say.....

I was 100% honest in my coment and I know you understood completely....

I am shocked by what you done with Is 9!....

So much twist!

As for the concept trinity...if we can call that.....

Its not a definition of God...it can not be....instead...its a just a word created to explain the distinct manifastations in which God appers in the Bible....

Now, to the question..."Can any body explain exactly what "trinity" is or how "works"...

The answer is...No, but we may will be able to, at the same time and day that we are able to explain what is YHWH and how He came to be!

So in fact...there is no much diference between YHWH and the ideia trinity....none can be fully explained! Is beyond our grasp...our horizon!

For now, all we have is what the scriputure says....

Philip said, “Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us.” Jesus answered: “Don’t you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? Jo 14:8-9

God bless!

Elia
December 2nd, 2015, 12:40 AM
My eyes just cant believe what you just did....Lol...

How much twist to make the word of God say what you want to say!

You are doing exactly what you condemn catholics of doing!

Its incredible...its so incredible that is actualy funny!...Lol...

Love you brother....

First...I never made a conection of the 3 men with trinity!...Lol...

Second....you begin by saying that 2 out of 3 were angels....

Than after you say all 3 were angels!...lol

Two went to check on Sodoma and Gomorra...Where is the 3rd????

oh went back to haven!...lol

That One that stays behind in which Abraham gets closer and starts a dialogue with...He is Called YHWH!.......

The passage does not say what you want to say.....

I was 100% honest in my coment and I know you understood completely....

I am shocked by what you done with Is 9!....

So much twist!

As for the concept trinity...if we can call that.....

Its not a definition of God...it can not be....instead...its a just a word created to explain the distinct manifastations in which God appers in the Bible....

Now, to the question..."Can any body explain exactly what "trinity" is or how "works"...

The answer is...No, but we may will be able to, at the same time and day that we are able to explain what is YHWH and how He came to be!

So in fact...there is no much diference between YHWH and the ideia trinity....none can be fully explained! Is beyond our grasp...our horizon!

For now, all we have is what the scriputure says....

Philip said, “Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us.” Jesus answered: “Don’t you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? Jo 14:8-9

God bless!

Bs"d

Don't talk so much about "all that twist".

Just tell me where my "twist" is wrong and why.



"For all people will walk every one in the name of his god, and we will walk in the name of Y-H-W-H our God for ever and ever.".
Micah 4:5

sfontel
December 2nd, 2015, 12:43 AM
Bs"d

Don't talk so much about "all that twist".

Just tell me where my "twist" is wrong and why.



"For all people will walk every one in the name of his god, and we will walk in the name of Y-H-W-H our God for ever and ever.".
Micah 4:5
Lol.....I dont need...you know already!

God bless!

Elia
December 2nd, 2015, 12:48 AM
As for the concept trinity...if we can call that.....

Its not a definition of God...it can not be....instead...its a just a word created to explain the distinct manifastations in which God appers in the Bible....

Bs"d

In the beginning of Christianity, somewhere in the third century, a Biblical scholar reared his head, his name was Sabelius, and he claimed that the Christian God, the father, son, and holy ghost, were three different manifestations of of the same God, just like steam, water, and ice, are three manifestations of one substance; H2O.

The result of this brilliant insight was that he was branded a heretic, and excommunicated. Then already the church realized that this is impossible.
When you say that it is all the same God, only in a different form, then you say that God is his own son, and at the same time his own father.

Then when Christ prays to his father, God is praying to himself.

Luke 22:41-42; Christ is praying, "saying, "Father, if You are willing, remove this cup from Me; yet not My will, but Yours be done."
So here God had a different will than himself?

Even in heaven Christ is subjugated to the father according to 1 Corr 15:28, Matthew 20:23, Fill 2:9.
So God is subjugated to himself?


When Christ was hanging on the cross, he cried out: "My God, my God, why did you forsake me?"
Did God forsake himself?

Col 3:1; "keep seeking the things above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God."
God is sitting on his own right hand?

God died on the cross, slaughtered by his creatures?
If so, who resurrected him?

The theory of Sabelius is impossible.



God bless!

"I will bless those who bless you, And I will curse him who curses you;"
Gen 12:3

Elia
December 2nd, 2015, 12:51 AM
Lol.....I dont need...you know already!

God bless!

Bs"d

"Refutations" without any proof or support go without any proof or support into the garbage can.



"For all people will walk every one in the name of his god, and we will walk in the name of Y-H-W-H our God for ever and ever.".
Micah 4:5

sfontel
December 2nd, 2015, 01:16 AM
by*admin*» Tue Jul 01, 2008 7:31 pmI found the following response of Dr. James D. Price, professor of Hebraic Studies on a listserv entry:*================12/15/97Your friend is mistaken about Isaiah 9:6 [vs. 5 in Hebrew] for severalreasons:(1) Not all Jews translate the verse as he has been led to believe. For*example, the Greek translation of the OT known as the Septuagint (LXX)*translated the expression as "his name is called." The LXX was translatedby Jews in the 3rd century BC, and thus not affected by the Christian-Jewish debates over this issue. It is true that the LXX paraphrased the*translation of the names in that verse, but the translation of the verb*is the important thing here. The Jewish Tanach that I have translates*the verse as follows: "For to us a child is born, to us a son is given;*and the government is upon his shoulder; and his name shall be called*"Wonderful counsellor of the mighty God, of the everlasting Father,*of the Prince of peace". Obviously these Jewish translators had no*problem rendering the verb as a passive. However, their insertion of*the word "of" in several places is not justified by any rule of Hebrewgrammar that I know, nor by the rendering of the verse in the Talmud*(see below).(2) In the Talmud the verse is translated as follows: "For unto us a child is*born, unto us a son is given; and the government shall be upon his shoulder:*and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, Mighty, Judge,*Everlasting, Father, Prince, and Peace. [Sanhedrin 94a]. Obviously this*is an authentic Jewish translation. Therefore, those who have persuaded*your friend otherwise have misled him.(3) Your friend seems to be unaware of the well-known grammatical*construction referred to as the indefinite personal subject. See the*discussion of this in the Gesenius-Kautzsch-Cowley Hebrew Grammar(Oxford, 1910) § 144d (p. 460). Literally the Hebrew would be translated*as "One will call his name XXX," but most often translators render the verbas a passive instead. The Gesenius-Kautzsch-Cowley grammar lists*Isa. 9:6 [5] as one such case. So your friend is wrong in stating that the*active stem [Qal] of the verb "qara'" never is translated as a passive.Here are some examples of where the Qal stem of the verb "qara'" [call]*is properly translated as though it were passive when it governs the word*"shem" [name] as its object, and has an indefinite personal subject.Genesis 11:9 Therefore its name is called Babel,*'al ken qara' shemah babelGenesis 19:22 Therefore the name of the city was called Zoar.'al ken qara' shen-ha'ir zo'arGenesis 25:26 and his name was called Jacob.*wayyiqra' shemo ya'aqobGenesis 25:30 Therefore his name was called Edom.'al ken qara' shemo 'edomGenesis 29:34 Therefore his name was called Levi.'al ken qara' shemo lewiGenesis 31:48 Therefore its name was called Galeed,'al ken qara' shemo gal'edGenesis 33:17 Therefore the name of the place is called Succoth.'al ken qara' shem-hammaqom sukkoth=================And second response from Dr. Price:Your friend, needs to study the syntax*of the Hebrew expression "X called the name of Y Z,"*where X is the person who gives the name, Y is the person*or thing receiving the name, and Z is the name given.*An exhaustive study of these expressions in the Tenach*indicates the following:(1) When waw-consecutive is used, the syntax is:wayyiqra' X ('et) shem Y Z [where Y may be a pronoun](2) When waw-conjunctive is used, the syntax is:we-X qara' ('et) shem Y Z [where Y may be a pronoun](3) When no conjunction is used, the syntax is:qara' X ('et) shem Y Z(4) When Z receives special emphasis, the syntax is:Z qara' X ('et) shem Y(5) When X is a pronoun implied in the conjugate form of the verb,the syntax is:qara'/yiqra' ('et) shem Y Z [where Y may be a pronoun]I gave many examples of (5) in my previous post.The following are all the instances of (1) in the Tenach:Genesis 3:20 And Adam called his wife's name Eve,wayyiqra' ha'adam shem-'ishto chawwahGenesis 16:15 and Abram named his son, whom Hagar bore, Ishmael.wayyiqra' 'abram shem-beno 'asher yaledah hagar yisma''elGenesis 21:3 And Abraham called the name of his son who was born to him --whom Sarah bore to him -- Isaac.wayyiqra' 'abraham 'et-shem-beno . . . yitschaqGenesis 22:14 And Abraham called the name of that place,*The-LORD-Will-Provide;wayyiqra' 'abraham shem-hammaqom hahu' YHWH-yir'ehGenesis 32:30 And Jacob called the name of the place Penielwayyiqra' ya'aqob shem-hammaqom peniy'elGenesis 35:15 And Jacob called the name of the place*where God spoke with him,Bethel.wayyiqra' ya'aqob 'et-shem-hammaqom . . . beyt-'elGenesis 41:45 And Pharaoh called Joseph's name Zaphnath-Paaneah.wayyiqra' par'oh shem-yosep tsapnat pa'neachGenesis 41:51 Joseph called the name of the firstborn Manasseh:wayyiqra' yosep 'et-shem-habbekor menashshehExodus 16:31 And the house of Israel called its name Manna.wayyiqra' beyt-yisra'el 'et-shemo manNumbers 13:16 And Moses called Hoshea the son of Nun, Joshua.wayyiqra' moshe' lehoshea' ben-nun yehoshua'The following is the sole instance of (2) in the Tenach:1 Chronicles 4:9 and his mother called his name Jabez,we'immo qar'ah shemo ya'betsThe following is the sole instance of (3) in the Tenach:Exodus 35:30 the LORD has called by name Bezalel the son of Uri,*qara' YHWH beshem betsal'el ben 'uriThere are two instances of (4) in the Tenach:Jeremiah 11:16 The LORD called your name, Green Olive Tree,*Lovely and of Good Fruit.*zayit ra'anan yep'eh perit-to'ar qara' YHWH shemekJeremiah 20:3 The LORD has not called your name Pashhur,lo' pashchur qara' HYWH shemekConclusion:For all instances of this expression in the Tenach (except Isa. 9:6[5]),*when X is named in the clause, X either immediately precedes or follows*the verb "qara'," and, when it follows, it intervenes between "qara'"*and ('et) shem Y. Your friend's proposed syntax of Isa. 9:6[5]*would be as follows:wayyiqra' ('et) shem Y X ZThis is contrary to all other constructions of this expression in the*Tenach. Therefore, it is only reasonable to conclude that the Artscroll*Chumash and your friend are wrong (being motivated by theological bias,*not good grammar), and that the syntax of Isa. 9:6[5] should be according*to (5) as follows:wayyiqra' ('et) shem Y Z [where Y is a pronoun suffix].In this case, as in many similar cases, X, the subject of the verb,*is the pronoun implied in the conjugate form of the verb, and Z*is "Wonderful, Counselor, The Mighty God, The Father of Eternity,*Prince of Peace."Sincerely,James D. PriceGenesis 35:8 So the name of it was called Allon Bachuth.wayyiqra' shemo 'allon bakkuthGenesis 38:29 Therefore his name was called Perez.wayyiqra' shemo paretsGenesis 38:30 And his name was called Zerah.wayyiqra' shemo zerahGenesis 50:11 Therefore its name was called Abel Mizraim,'al ken qara' shemah 'abel mitsrayimExodus 15:23 Therefore the name of it was called Marah.'al ken qara' shemah marahNumbers 21:3 So the name of that place was called Hormah.wayyiqra' shem-hammaqom hormahJoshua 5:9 Therefore the name of the place is called Gilgal*wayyiqra' shem-hammaqom hahu' gilgalJoshua 7:26 Therefore the name of that place has been called the*Valley of Achor*'al ken qara' shem-hammaqom hahu' 'emeq 'akor- John Parsons

sfontel
December 2nd, 2015, 01:17 AM
I think my post is much esasier to understand....Lol.....

Elia
December 2nd, 2015, 05:50 AM
by*admin*» Tue Jul 01, 2008 7:31 pmI found the following response of Dr. James D. Price, professor of Hebraic Studies on a listserv entry:*================12/15/97Your friend is mistaken about Isaiah 9:6 [vs. 5 in Hebrew] for severalreasons:(1) Not all Jews translate the verse as he has been led to believe. For*example, the Greek translation of the OT known as the Septuagint (LXX)*translated the expression as "his name is called." The LXX was translatedby Jews in the 3rd century BC, and thus not affected by the Christian-Jewish debates over this issue. It is true that the LXX paraphrased the*translation of the names in that verse, but the translation of the verb*is the important thing here. The Jewish Tanach that I have translates*the verse as follows: "For to us a child is born, to us a son is given;*and the government is upon his shoulder; and his name shall be called*"Wonderful counsellor of the mighty God, of the everlasting Father,*of the Prince of peace". Obviously these Jewish translators had no*problem rendering the verb as a passive.

Bs"d

Two things: The Jews only translated the Torah into Greek, that is the five books of Moses. Who translated the rest of the Tanach is anybody's guess.

Second, it is very naive to think we have now the LXX just like it was translated 23 centuries ago.
The Jews abandoned it quickly, and the LXX has been in Christian hands, who made many changes in it:

Here are a few excerpts from the online Catholic Encyclopedia, here to be found:
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/ from the entry "Septuagint" which show the reliability of the LXX:

The Christians had recourse to it constantly in their controversies with the Jews, who soon recognized its imperfections, and finally rejected it in favour of the Hebrew text or of more literal translations (Aquila, Theodotion).

On account of its diffusion alone the hellenizing Jews and early Christians, copies of the Septuagint were multiplied; and as might be expected, many changes, deliberate as well as involuntary, crept in.

The Septuagint Version, while giving exactly as to the form and substance the true sense of the Sacred Books, differs nevertheless considerably from our present Hebrew text.

Again, we must not think that we have at present the Greek text exactly as it was written by the translators; the frequent transcriptions during the early centuries, as well as the corrections and editions of Origen, Lucian, and Hesychius impaired the purity of the text: voluntarily or involuntarily the copyists allowed many textual corruptions, transpositions, additions, and omissions to creep into the primitive text of the Septuagint.

So the Catholics openly admit they corrupted the LXX. So it cannot be used to prove anything.


However, their insertion of*the word "of" in several places is not justified by any rule of Hebrewgrammar that I know, nor by the rendering of the verse in the Talmud*(see below).(2) In the Talmud the verse is translated as follows: "For unto us a child is*born, unto us a son is given; and the government shall be upon his shoulder:*and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, Mighty, Judge,*Everlasting, Father, Prince, and Peace. [Sanhedrin 94a]. Obviously this*is an authentic Jewish translation. Therefore, those who have persuaded*your friend otherwise have misled him.(3) Your friend seems to be unaware of the well-known grammatical*construction referred to as the indefinite personal subject. See the*discussion of this in the Gesenius-Kautzsch-Cowley Hebrew Grammar(Oxford, 1910) § 144d (p. 460). Literally the Hebrew would be translated*as "One will call his name XXX," but most often translators render the verbas a passive instead. The Gesenius-Kautzsch-Cowley grammar lists*Isa. 9:6 [5] as one such case. So your friend is wrong in stating that the*active stem [Qal] of the verb "qara'" never is translated as a passive.Here are some examples of where the Qal stem of the verb "qara'" [call]*is properly translated as though it were passive when it governs the word*"shem" [name] as its object, and has an indefinite personal subject.Genesis 11:9 Therefore its name is called Babel,*'al ken qara' shemah babelGenesis 19:22 Therefore the name of the city was called Zoar.'al ken qara' shen-ha'ir zo'arGenesis 25:26 and his name was called Jacob.*wayyiqra' shemo ya'aqobGenesis 25:30 Therefore his name was called Edom.'al ken qara' shemo 'edomGenesis 29:34 Therefore his name was called Levi.'al ken qara' shemo lewiGenesis 31:48 Therefore its name was called Galeed,'al ken qara' shemo gal'edGenesis 33:17 Therefore the name of the place is called Succoth.'al ken qara' shem-hammaqom

Thanks, this all proves my point.


sukkoth=================And second response from Dr. Price:Your friend, needs to study the syntax*of the Hebrew expression "X called the name of Y Z,"*where X is the person who gives the name, Y is the person*or thing receiving the name, and Z is the name given.*An exhaustive study of these expressions in the Tenach*indicates the following:(1) When waw-consecutive is used, the syntax is:wayyiqra' X ('et) shem Y Z [where Y may be a pronoun](2) When waw-conjunctive is used, the syntax is:we-X qara' ('et) shem Y Z [where Y may be a pronoun](3) When no conjunction is used, the syntax is:qara' X ('et) shem Y Z(4) When Z receives special emphasis, the syntax is:Z qara' X ('et) shem Y(5) When X is a pronoun implied in the conjugate form of the verb,the syntax is:qara'/yiqra' ('et) shem Y Z [where Y may be a pronoun]I gave many examples of (5) in my previous post.The following are all the instances of (1) in the Tenach:Genesis 3:20 And Adam called his wife's name Eve,wayyiqra' ha'adam shem-'ishto chawwahGenesis 16:15 and Abram named his son, whom Hagar bore, Ishmael.wayyiqra' 'abram shem-beno 'asher yaledah hagar yisma''elGenesis 21:3 And Abraham called the name of his son who was born to him --whom Sarah bore to him -- Isaac.wayyiqra' 'abraham 'et-shem-beno . . . yitschaqGenesis 22:14 And Abraham called the name of that place,*The-LORD-Will-Provide;wayyiqra' 'abraham shem-hammaqom hahu' YHWH-yir'ehGenesis 32:30 And Jacob called the name of the place Penielwayyiqra' ya'aqob shem-hammaqom peniy'elGenesis 35:15 And Jacob called the name of the place*where God spoke with him,Bethel.wayyiqra' ya'aqob 'et-shem-hammaqom . . . beyt-'elGenesis 41:45 And Pharaoh called Joseph's name Zaphnath-Paaneah.wayyiqra' par'oh shem-yosep tsapnat pa'neachGenesis 41:51 Joseph called the name of the firstborn Manasseh:wayyiqra' yosep 'et-shem-habbekor menashshehExodus 16:31 And the house of Israel called its name Manna.wayyiqra' beyt-yisra'el 'et-shemo manNumbers 13:16 And Moses called Hoshea the son of Nun, Joshua.wayyiqra' moshe' lehoshea' ben-nun yehoshua'The following is the sole instance of (2) in the Tenach:1 Chronicles 4:9 and his mother called his name Jabez,we'immo qar'ah shemo ya'betsThe following is the sole instance of (3) in the Tenach:Exodus 35:30 the LORD has called by name Bezalel the son of Uri,*qara' YHWH beshem betsal'el ben 'uriThere are two instances of (4) in the Tenach:Jeremiah 11:16 The LORD called your name, Green Olive Tree,*Lovely and of Good Fruit.*zayit ra'anan yep'eh perit-to'ar qara' YHWH shemekJeremiah 20:3 The LORD has not called your name Pashhur,lo' pashchur qara' HYWH shemekConclusion:For all instances of this expression in the Tenach (except Isa. 9:6[5]),*when X is named in the clause, X either immediately precedes or follows*the verb "qara'," and, when it follows, it intervenes between "qara'"*and ('et) shem Y. Your friend's proposed syntax of Isa. 9:6[5]*would be as follows:wayyiqra' ('et) shem Y X ZThis is contrary to all other constructions of this expression in the*Tenach. Therefore, it is only reasonable to conclude that the Artscroll*Chumash and your friend are wrong (being motivated by theological bias,*not good grammar), and that the syntax of Isa. 9:6[5] should be according*to (5) as follows:wayyiqra' ('et) shem Y Z [where Y is a pronoun suffix].In this case, as in many similar cases, X, the subject of the verb,*is the pronoun implied in the conjugate form of the verb, and Z*is "Wonderful, Counselor, The Mighty God, The Father of Eternity,*Prince of Peace."Sincerely,James D. PriceGenesis 35:8 So the name of it was called Allon Bachuth.wayyiqra' shemo 'allon bakkuthGenesis 38:29 Therefore his name was called Perez.wayyiqra' shemo paretsGenesis 38:30 And his name was called Zerah.wayyiqra' shemo zerahGenesis 50:11 Therefore its name was called Abel Mizraim,'al ken qara' shemah 'abel mitsrayimExodus 15:23 Therefore the name of it was called Marah.'al ken qara' shemah marahNumbers 21:3 So the name of that place was called Hormah.wayyiqra' shem-hammaqom hormahJoshua 5:9 Therefore the name of the place is called Gilgal*wayyiqra' shem-hammaqom hahu' gilgalJoshua 7:26 Therefore the name of that place has been called the*Valley of Achor*'al ken qara' shem-hammaqom hahu' 'emeq 'akor- John Parsons

Every instance here mentioned is PAST tense. I don't know what you are trying to say here, but every example is past, so also Isaiah 9, there too the child WAS called "wonderful, counsellor, etc.

So no matter what, Isaiah 9 speaks about a child born in the days of Isaiah or earlier. So the Christian messiah is out, he only came 700 years later.

sfontel
December 2nd, 2015, 09:30 PM
Bs"d

Two things: The Jews only translated the Torah into Greek, that is the five books of Moses. Who translated the rest of the Tanach is anybody's guess.

Second, it is very naive to think we have now the LXX just like it was translated 23 centuries ago.
The Jews abandoned it quickly, and the LXX has been in Christian hands, who made many changes in it:

Here are a few excerpts from the online Catholic Encyclopedia, here to be found:
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/ from the entry "Septuagint" which show the reliability of the LXX:

The Christians had recourse to it constantly in their controversies with the Jews, who soon recognized its imperfections, and finally rejected it in favour of the Hebrew text or of more literal translations (Aquila, Theodotion).

On account of its diffusion alone the hellenizing Jews and early Christians, copies of the Septuagint were multiplied; and as might be expected, many changes, deliberate as well as involuntary, crept in.

The Septuagint Version, while giving exactly as to the form and substance the true sense of the Sacred Books, differs nevertheless considerably from our present Hebrew text.

Again, we must not think that we have at present the Greek text exactly as it was written by the translators; the frequent transcriptions during the early centuries, as well as the corrections and editions of Origen, Lucian, and Hesychius impaired the purity of the text: voluntarily or involuntarily the copyists allowed many textual corruptions, transpositions, additions, and omissions to creep into the primitive text of the Septuagint.

So the Catholics openly admit they corrupted the LXX. So it cannot be used to prove anything.



Thanks, this all proves my point.



Every instance here mentioned is PAST tense. I don't know what you are trying to say here, but every example is past, so also Isaiah 9, there too the child WAS called "wonderful, counsellor, etc.

So no matter what, Isaiah 9 speaks about a child born in the days of Isaiah or earlier. So the Christian messiah is out, he only came 700 years later.
I just wonder...what do you think about this?

http://forward.com/opinion/169309/the-jewish-translation-that-rewrote-the-bible/

God bless!

jamie
December 2nd, 2015, 10:09 PM
God is not a man at all, just like the angels were not men.


With whom did Jacob wrestle?

Elia
December 2nd, 2015, 11:28 PM
With whom did Jacob wrestle?

Bs"d

With an angel.

Elia
December 2nd, 2015, 11:29 PM
I just wonder...what do you think about this?

http://forward.com/opinion/169309/the-jewish-translation-that-rewrote-the-bible/

God bless!

Bs"d

A translation is a crutch. Every Jew has to learn Hebrew.

sfontel
December 3rd, 2015, 12:04 AM
Bs"d

A translation is a crutch. Every Jew has to learn Hebrew.
Lol! I am so thankfull that YHWH is unlimited that He can speak and understand all linguages....

Or is He limited to speak and understand only in Hebrew?

Why do you try to put God inside of a box in all matters when there is no basis in scriputure?

Where does the bible says "translations" are not allowed?

I just wonder what verse are you going to twist this time to justify " translation not allowed"...lol

The past...the verb is not translated this way....bla bla...the prensent of the past...and as you make yourself the smartest scholar on the face of earth! Lol..lol...sorry lol

my brother, listen....

I dont know if you ortodox, ultra ortodox....what ever you are...I love you and I had a great time with you here....even when you think that you are smart and everybody else is stupid...

One thing I know.... sometimes by a totaly unknow reason...Jesus do things like He did to Saul of Tarsos....a very zelous guy...

My prayer to you is that He may do same to you for His glory...

There are some cases that Jesus have to solve by Himself....He told us to preach and love....and thats what we do! The rest is in the Holy Spirit hands!

God bless you!

Elia
December 3rd, 2015, 01:07 AM
Lol! I am so thankfull that YHWH is unlimited that He can speak and understand all linguages....

Bs"d

Me too.


Or is He limited to speak and understand only in Hebrew?

No.


Why do you try to put God inside of a box in all matters when there is no basis in scriputure?

I do? Please give me examples.


Where does the bible says "translations" are not allowed?

Nowhere.


I just wonder what verse are you going to twist this time to justify " translation not allowed"...lol

Why should I have to justify that? I don't believe translations are not allowed.

I do believe they are a crutch for those who cannot read the real thing, and I do believe translations are inferior to the real thing.

Therefore learning Hebrew is the better option.


The past...the verb is not translated this way....bla bla...the prensent of the past...and as you make yourself the smartest scholar on the face of earth! Lol..lol...sorry lol

You have any arguments maybe?




God bless you!

God bless you.

"I will bless those who bless you, And I will curse him who curses you;"
Gen 12:3



"Serve Y-H-W-H! And if it seems evil to you to serve Y-H-W-H, choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the River, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you dwell.
But as for me and my house, we will serve Y-H-W-H!.”
Joshua 24:14-15

jamie
December 3rd, 2015, 10:14 AM
With an angel.


Genesis says an ish wrestled with Jacob. Are you saying all angels are ish?

Elia
December 4th, 2015, 12:26 AM
Genesis says an ish wrestled with Jacob. Are you saying all angels are ish?

Bs"d

No. I'm saying sometimes an angel impersonates a man (= ish).


"For all people will walk every one in the name of his god, and we will walk in the name of Y-H-W-H our God for ever and ever.".
Micah 4:5

sfontel
December 14th, 2015, 10:58 PM
Bs"d

Me too.



No.



I do? Please give me examples.



Nowhere.



Why should I have to justify that? I don't believe translations are not allowed.

I do believe they are a crutch for those who cannot read the real thing, and I do believe translations are inferior to the real thing.

Therefore learning Hebrew is the better option.



You have any arguments maybe?



God bless you.

"I will bless those who bless you, And I will curse him who curses you;"
Gen 12:3



"Serve Y-H-W-H! And if it seems evil to you to serve Y-H-W-H, choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the River, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you dwell.
But as for me and my house, we will serve Y-H-W-H!.”
Joshua 24:14-15
Hey Elia! How r u? Did you watched the new X-Mem movie thrailer? What do you think? God's name?
God bless!