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Greg Jennings
October 4th, 2015, 08:09 PM
Christians here at TOL, do you believe that God and Jesus are the exact same being? Or do you think that Jesus is divine and begotten of God but not the same being?


From the words of the new testament it seems to me that Jesus is a separate entity. For example he says that even he doesn't know when the end times are, and that only God does. How could Jesus not know what God does if they are the exact same being?

patrick jane
October 4th, 2015, 08:28 PM
Christians here at TOL, do you believe that God and Jesus are the exact same being? Or do you think that Jesus is divine and begotten of God but not the same being?


From the words of the new testament it seems to me that Jesus is a separate entity. For example he says that even he doesn't know when the end times are, and that only God does. How could Jesus not know what God does if they are the exact same being?


You should explore older posts and study in Our Triune God Thread by LON. Many folks debated, studied, and discussed this in very very great detail. It may be in Theology Club though, now that I think of it, so this thread may do well. You can't get the answers in a few posts. You can, but then the debate begins.

Colossians 1:14 KJV and 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20

intojoy
October 4th, 2015, 08:58 PM
Christians here at TOL, do you believe that God and Jesus are the exact same being? Or do you think that Jesus is divine and begotten of God but not the same being?


From the words of the new testament it seems to me that Jesus is a separate entity. For example he says that even he doesn't know when the end times are, and that only God does. How could Jesus not know what God does if they are the exact same being?

Jesus is God

Greg Jennings
October 4th, 2015, 09:07 PM
Jesus is God

What is your explanation for Jesus not knowing when the seals of revelation will be broken while saying that "his Father" does?

Greg Jennings
October 4th, 2015, 09:08 PM
You should explore older posts and study in Our Triune God Thread by LON. Many folks debated, studied, and discussed this in very very great detail. It may be in Theology Club though, now that I think of it, so this thread may do well. You can't get the answers in a few posts. You can, but then the debate begins.

Colossians 1:14 KJV and 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20

I'll take a look. Thanks for the suggestions

intojoy
October 4th, 2015, 09:16 PM
What is your explanation for Jesus not knowing when the seals of revelation will be broken while saying that "his Father" does?

Self imposed limitations of His divine sovereignty

Greg Jennings
October 4th, 2015, 09:18 PM
Self imposed limitations of His divine sovereignty

Ok. That's interesting

intojoy
October 4th, 2015, 09:25 PM
Ok. That's interesting

I.e.
God can't destroy the earth with a flood. Why? He certainly has the ability. God can't destroy the earth again with a flood because He placed a self imposed limitation on His divine sovereignty

1Mind1Spirit
October 4th, 2015, 10:09 PM
I.e.
God can't destroy the earth with a flood. Why? He certainly has the ability. God can't destroy the earth again with a flood because He placed a self imposed limitation on His divine sovereignty

Wise up goofball.:p

It is no limitation on his sovereignty, his sovereign self made a promise that nobody else could make or break. :chuckle:

keypurr
October 4th, 2015, 10:48 PM
Christians here at TOL, do you believe that God and Jesus are the exact same being? Or do you think that Jesus is divine and begotten of God but not the same being?


From the words of the new testament it seems to me that Jesus is a separate entity. For example he says that even he doesn't know when the end times are, and that only God does. How could Jesus not know what God does if they are the exact same being?

Jesus is the flesh son of God.

However, the spirit being IN him is a form of God.

There is only one God, the Father. John 17:3

Greg Jennings
October 4th, 2015, 10:51 PM
Jesus is the flesh son of God.

However, the spirit being IN him is a form of God.

There is only one God, the Father. John 17:3

That's what I got from reading the new testament also

keypurr
October 4th, 2015, 10:56 PM
That's what I got from reading the new testament also

Welcome to TOL.

Heb 1:3 speaks of the express image of God, since God is a spirit, this SON is also a spirit. This spirit being went into Jesus at his anointing.

This is what I see.

intojoy
October 5th, 2015, 01:14 AM
Wise up goofball.:p

It is no limitation on his sovereignty, his sovereign self made a promise that nobody else could make or break. :chuckle:

Don't hate me cause I'm pretty

freelight
October 5th, 2015, 03:42 AM
Christians here at TOL, do you believe that God and Jesus are the exact same being? Or do you think that Jesus is divine and begotten of God but not the same being?

From the words of the new testament it seems to me that Jesus is a separate entity. For example he says that even he doesn't know when the end times are, and that only God does. How could Jesus not know what God does if they are the exact same being?

Relationally speaking, two persons cannot ever be the same person, ever. Even a traditional-orthodox concept of the Trinity accepts this, whereby they compound 3 personalities into one 'essence', noting difference only in 'personality', but not in essence.

As far as omniscience is concerned, Jesus is obviously not totally omniscient since a prior, original and greater infinite knowledge is only had by The Father. Jesus is subordinate to a Higher Power than himself, and freely attests to that in the gospels.

Futhermore, one significant point made by Arius (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arius) in the 4th century was that only God the Father is 'unbegotten', while Jesus Christ is 'begotten' [U]revealing he had an conception point, a 'beginning' of existence before creation. Anything 'unbegotten' is timeless/unborn...and such can only be applied to 'pure Deity' which alone is without beginning. Anything 'begotten' has an origin and beginning.

bybee
October 5th, 2015, 06:45 AM
Relationally speaking, two persons cannot ever be the same person, ever. Even a traditional-orthodox concept of the Trinity accepts this, whereby they compound 3 personalities into one 'essence', noting difference only in 'personality', but not in essence.

As far as omniscience is concerned, Jesus is obviously not totally omniscient since a prior, original and greater infinite knowledge is only had by The Father. Jesus is subordinate to a Higher Power than himself, and freely attests to that in the gospels.

Futhermore, one significant point made by Arius (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arius) in the 4th century was that only God the Father is 'unbegotten', while Jesus Christ is 'begotten' [U]revealing he had an conception point, a 'beginning' of existence before creation. Anything 'unbegotten' is timeless/unborn...and such can only be applied to 'pure Deity' which alone is without beginning. Anything 'begotten' has an origin and beginning.

A thought: "The Word was with God...." I have thought that God's Thoughts precede His actions? Himself as multi-faceted entity would not preclude Jesus/Son/Savior as being God Himself?
This is theological stuff and I am open to instruction and or correction in this area.

aikido7
October 5th, 2015, 06:55 AM
Christians here at TOL, do you believe that God and Jesus are the exact same being? Or do you think that Jesus is divine and begotten of God but not the same being?


From the words of the new testament it seems to me that Jesus is a separate entity. For example he says that even he doesn't know when the end times are, and that only God does. How could Jesus not know what God does if they are the exact same being?Wanting to find a definitive answer to these questions depends on which theology you recognize in the New Testament.

Jesus always denies his own divinity.

But in the Gospel of John--which has little history and much early church theology--Jesus is made to say:

--"I and the Father are One"

...and

--"The Father is greater than I."

Different traditions can be found in the New Testament.

jamie
October 5th, 2015, 07:33 AM
Jesus is the flesh son of God.


So are we.


For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. (Romans 8:14 NKJV)

jamie
October 5th, 2015, 07:39 AM
However, the spirit being IN him is a form of God.


Is this the same Spirit that John was born with?

Paul says there is only one Spirit. Jesus was led by that Spirit.

There are many sons of God.

jamie
October 5th, 2015, 07:46 AM
Or do you think that Jesus is divine and begotten of God but not the same being?



Then God said, "Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness..." (Genesis 1:26 NKJV)

All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made. (John 1:3 NKJV)

And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us... (John 1:14 NKJV)

Greg Jennings
October 5th, 2015, 08:03 AM
Then God said, "Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness..." (Genesis 1:26 NKJV)

All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made. (John 1:3 NKJV)

And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us... (John 1:14 NKJV)

And is this "us" God + Jesus or God + angels or God + both?

keypurr
October 5th, 2015, 09:00 AM
So are we.




For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. (Romans 8:14 NKJV)


No we are not the flesh sons of God.

keypurr
October 5th, 2015, 09:01 AM
Is this the same Spirit that John was born with?



Paul says there is only one Spirit. Jesus was led by that Spirit.



There are many sons of God.


No, there is only one express image spirit son and he was in Jesus only.
The express image is NOT the Holy Spirit.

keypurr
October 5th, 2015, 09:07 AM
Then God said, "Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness..." (Genesis 1:26 NKJV)



All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made. (John 1:3 NKJV)



And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us... (John 1:14 NKJV)


Man was not, made in the express image of God friend.

All things were made by God through his son, they are both spirits, not men.

The spirit son took the form of man by dwelling in Jesus who was prepared for him by the Father. Christ spoke and worked through Jesus. The word (logos) is the spirit son Christ.

freelight
October 5th, 2015, 03:21 PM
A thought: "The Word was with God...." I have thought that God's Thoughts precede His actions? Himself as multi-faceted entity would not preclude Jesus/Son/Savior as being God Himself?
This is theological stuff and I am open to instruction and or correction in this area.

In chronology we can assume God's thought/plan/logic precedes his actions, so the 'logos' was in towards 'God' or within Him from eternity as a hidden potential as it were. This logos would be 'divine' by origination or nature (to some degree), being an emenation/offspring or creative expression(creation) of God.

IF the logos was in any way 'begotten' (before creation) and in the person of Jesus via the 'incarnation', in the sense of a generation of some kind taking place, which would be the case in the 'birth' of the man Jesus (no matter when the 'logos' took up residence in or came upon Jesus)...then such is a beginning of existence in space-time.

In this sense 'Christ' is not 'unbegotten' as only God the Father is (as having no beginning, being 'unborn'),...because he is the special and unique 'begotten' Son of God. We can even say (as some Arians even admit) that in John 1:18 (note some manuscripts say "only begotten God"), that Jesus is a kind of 'begotten God', a begotten divinity or a 'god', and STILL in this relational context, Christ is different from and subordinate to the Father. He is divine by origination/special creation or 'begettting' in a 'special' and 'unique' way being the Firstborn,...but this does not (necessarily) make him the same 'being' or 'essence' of God the Father. (this very point of likeness or unlikeness between God and Christ is the crux of the debate).

Christ still holds all the qualifications and requirements to be Lord, Messiah, Savior, Deliverer, etc.....as the only 'begotten' Son of God (this 'begetting' in his case is 'special' and 'unique'). Therefore on some levels I see the whole Arian Controversy as a strenuous debate over terms and definitions influenced by so much political or state pressures in the various church councils over 'doctrine', until the factions of bishops/priests that got more support by the state gained victory which ultimately put the supporters of the Nicean Creed (Trinitarians) ontop, although Arian theology did have state sanction for some decades during the the controversy, as the tides went back n forth for a period of at least 50 years.

For more on this research the teaching of Arius and Arian Controversy. - if time/interest permits I may began a new thread on Arianism.

jamie
October 5th, 2015, 03:55 PM
Christ spoke and worked through Jesus.


Interesting. Luke thought it was the Father who worked through Jesus.


Men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth, a Man attested by God to you by miracles, wonders, and signs which God did through Him in your midst, as you yourselves also know... (Acts 2:22 NKJV)

Why do you believe Luke was mistaken?

Bright Raven
October 5th, 2015, 04:02 PM
Christ spoke and worked through Jesus.

God the Father spoke and worked through Jesus.

John 5:19 New King James Version (NKJV)

19 Then Jesus answered and said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of Himself, but what He sees the Father do; for whatever He does, the Son also does in like manner.

jamie
October 5th, 2015, 04:07 PM
And is this "us" God + Jesus or God + angels or God + both?



...and to make all see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the ages has been hidden in God who created all things through Jesus Christ... (Ephesians 3:9 NKJV)

God created all things through Jesus Christ.

bybee
October 5th, 2015, 04:45 PM
In chronology we can assume God's thought/plan/logic precedes his actions, so the 'logos' was in towards 'God' or within Him from eternity as a hidden potential as it were. This logos would be 'divine' by origination or nature (to some degree), being an emenation/offspring or creative expression(creation) of God.

IF the logos was in any way 'begotten' (before creation) and in the person of Jesus via the 'incarnation', in the sense of a generation of some kind taking place, which would be the case in the 'birth' of the man Jesus (no matter when the 'logos' took up residence in or came upon Jesus)...then such is a beginning of existence in space-time.

In this sense 'Christ' is not 'unbegotten' as only God the Father is (as having no beginning, being 'unborn'),...because he is the special and unique 'begotten' Son of God. We can even say (as some Arians even admit) that in John 1:18 (note some manuscripts say "only begotten God"), that Jesus is a kind of 'begotten God', a begotten divinity or a 'god', and STILL in this relational context, Christ is different from and subordinate to the Father. He is divine by origination/special creation or 'begettting' in a 'special' and 'unique' way being the Firstborn,...but this does not (necessarily) make him the same 'being' or 'essence' of God the Father. (this very point of likeness or unlikeness between God and Christ is the crux of the debate).

Christ still holds all the qualifications and requirements to be Lord, Messiah, Savior, Deliverer, etc.....as the only 'begotten' Son of God (this 'begetting' in his case is 'special' and 'unique'). Therefore on some levels I see the whole Arian Controversy as a strenuous debate over terms and definitions influenced by so much political or state pressures in the various church councils over 'doctrine', until the factions of bishops/priests that got more support by the state gained victory which ultimately put the supporters of the Nicean Creed (Trinitarians) ontop, although Arian theology did have state sanction for some decades during the the controversy, as the tides went back n forth for a period of at least 50 years.

For more on this research the teaching of Arius and Arian Controversy. - if time/interest permits I may began a new thread on Arianism.

Thank you Freelight!

Ktoyou
October 5th, 2015, 04:59 PM
God, begotten in the flesh, Jesus.

freelight
October 5th, 2015, 05:07 PM
Thank you Freelight!

You're welcome,

As one somewhat familiar with some historical developments reaching their 'crest' by the Arian Controversy and the evolution of Christology, its 'old territory' so to speak, but always fun learning more.

I usually verge on a more agnostic/skeptical conclusion at least on a transcendental level looking down on all the 'techinicalities' and 'squabbles' involved in why the 'push' to make Jesus 'God' was forthcoming, making him the same 'being' and 'essence' of the Father (to complete an orthodox Trinitarian formulation), when such is not really necessary. And to those who claim its 'necessary', I find no satisfactory rationale that it must be so, since believing that Jesus is the 'representative' and 'representation' of 'God' in a special and unique way, is all that is sufficient to appreciate the ministry and personality of Jesus,...while all else is but non-essential, secondary, speculative observations or preferred assumptions that agree with one's philosophical leaning or theology, which is fine, so long as the essential value and meaning of Jesus ministry is not distorted.

Arius is a wonderful character. The more liberal modern day Arian Catholic Church (http://www.arian-catholic.org/) holds to some of the essentials he taught, but not all, having their own innovations and the taking of some parts of scripture as merely 'figurative'. On this level, I would probably enjoy a priesthood venture in such a liberal Arian community, or a more theosophically friendly one like the Liberal Catholic Church (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberal_Catholic_Church)....these hold to the traditional Christian sacraments and symbology, but allow for a much more liberal intellectual freedom in individual interpretation and practice, as being true to one's own 'religious experience', the community or sacraments serving to enhance that 'communion'. In this sense they accept a general unity of all religions in-as-much as they hold to universal truth and principles common to all.

keypurr
October 5th, 2015, 05:17 PM
Interesting. Luke thought it was the Father who worked through Jesus.




Men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth, a Man attested by God to you by miracles, wonders, and signs which God did through Him in your midst, as you yourselves also know... (Acts 2:22 NKJV)



Why do you believe Luke was mistaken?


I believe God did everything through Christ. Christ is a copy of the Father, it would be like having God in Jesus. Except, Christ got his ok from his father to do things. Like when he taught us the prayer "our Father, which art in heaven....", that shows that God was not physically in him like Christ was. So I think it was Christ that he was anointed with.

keypurr
October 5th, 2015, 05:20 PM
God the Father spoke and worked through Jesus.

John 5:19 New King James Version (NKJV)

19 Then Jesus answered and said to them, ďMost assuredly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of Himself, but what He sees the Father do; for whatever He does, the Son also does in like manner.


Look at the verse BR. The son is in Jesus, the son became flesh, not the Father.

keypurr
October 5th, 2015, 05:24 PM
I rehit

jamie
October 5th, 2015, 07:50 PM
No, there is only one express image spirit son and he was in Jesus only.
The express image is NOT the Holy Spirit.


Ok, then it was not the express image who indwelt Jesus, it was the Holy Spirit.


Then Jesus, being filled with the Holy Spirit, returned from the Jordan and was led by the Spirit into the wilderness. (Luke 4:1 NKJV)

jamie
October 5th, 2015, 07:59 PM
So I think it was Christ that he was anointed with.


After Jesus was baptized he was anointed with the Spirit of God.


When He had been baptized, Jesus came up immediately from the water and behold the heavens were opened to Him and He saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and alighting upon Him. (Matthew 3:16 NKJV)

Bright Raven
October 5th, 2015, 08:03 PM
Jesus always was the Christ.
Matthew 1:16 New King James Version (NKJV)

16 And Jacob begot Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus who is called Christ.

Matthew 1:18 New King James Version (NKJV)

Christ Born of Mary
18 Now the birth of Jesus Christ was as follows: After His mother Mary was betrothed to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Spirit.

Right Divider
October 5th, 2015, 08:16 PM
And is this "us" God + Jesus or God + angels or God + both?
The angels are created beings and nowhere does it say that they are made in the image of God. That is only said of man.

You must understand that Jesus is BOTH God and man. He did not give up His deity when He came down from heaven.

When Jesus said that "Mat 24:36 KJV But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.", He was not excluding Himself, as He has the same Spirit as His Father (i.e., the Spirit of God).

God's Truth
October 5th, 2015, 08:31 PM
You should explore older posts and study in Our Triune God Thread by LON. Many folks debated, studied, and discussed this in very very great detail. It may be in Theology Club though, now that I think of it, so this thread may do well. You can't get the answers in a few posts. You can, but then the debate begins.

Colossians 1:14 KJV and 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20

People would like to start new conversations about old topics. Why would you try to make anyone feel wrong for doing so?

God's Truth
October 5th, 2015, 08:35 PM
Christians here at TOL, do you believe that God and Jesus are the exact same being? Or do you think that Jesus is divine and begotten of God but not the same being?


From the words of the new testament it seems to me that Jesus is a separate entity. For example he says that even he doesn't know when the end times are, and that only God does. How could Jesus not know what God does if they are the exact same being?

God did not pretend to come as a Man He really came as a Man.

As a Man, God did not know as much as God the Father.

Jesus is God the Father come in the flesh as a Son of Man.

Right Divider
October 5th, 2015, 08:36 PM
God did not pretend to come as a Man He really came as a Man.

As a Man, God did not know as much as God the Father.

Jesus is God the Father come in the flesh as a Son of Man.
Complete and utter confusion.

God's Truth
October 5th, 2015, 08:43 PM
Complete and utter confusion.

You can understand man making a clone of themselves, but you cannot understand God coming as a Man?

Greg Jennings
October 5th, 2015, 08:43 PM
Complete and utter confusion.

Why is that? Not challenging you here just curious

God's Truth
October 5th, 2015, 08:45 PM
Why is that? Not challenging you here just curious

He is intimidated by the Truth.

Right Divider
October 5th, 2015, 08:49 PM
Why is that? Not challenging you here just curious
Jesus was not a lesser God or God the Father in skin.

GT is very confused.

God's Truth
October 5th, 2015, 08:57 PM
Jesus was not a lesser God or God the Father in skin.

GT is very confused.

Jesus is God the Father come in the flesh as a Son.

There are three, and the three are one and the same.

You make three different and separate Gods, and then call them one.

Lon
October 5th, 2015, 09:06 PM
Christians here at TOL, do you believe that God and Jesus are the exact same being? Or do you think that Jesus is divine and begotten of God but not the same being?


From the words of the new testament it seems to me that Jesus is a separate entity. For example he says that even he doesn't know when the end times are, and that only God does. How could Jesus not know what God does if they are the exact same being?
John 1:1 "...with and was..." [B]not either/or. All cults are 'cults' because they think 'either/or' instead of reading plain English: "...was with God AND was God..." (both/and). How? is not as important as the reported fact. That is what every cult misses on this: Jesus Christ the Word-made-flesh, is both '...with God and was [is] God." That verse is incredibly clear.

keypurr
October 5th, 2015, 09:08 PM
After Jesus was baptized he was anointed with the Spirit of God.


When He had been baptized, Jesus came up immediately from the water and behold the heavens were opened to Him and He saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and alighting upon Him. (Matthew 3:16 NKJV)

The spirit Christ is a Spirit of God.

Omniskeptical
October 5th, 2015, 09:11 PM
Jesus did not pre-exist birth. Christ is not a name for non-messiahs, and David was a messiah by Jewish Law. The logos and the tetragrammaton YHWH are one and same in John 1:1-3. The Holy Spirit is God as father. Mary's virginity didn't cause her to be pure. If Jesus was part of Yahweh, the resurrection would have had nay a merit. Should we believe God raises the dead based a psuedo god the son?

keypurr
October 5th, 2015, 09:11 PM
Ok, then it was not the express image who indwelt Jesus, it was the Holy Spirit.


Then Jesus, being filled with the Holy Spirit, returned from the Jordan and was led by the Spirit into the wilderness. (Luke 4:1 NKJV)

I disagree, Jesus was baptized with the Holy Spirit AND power. Acts 10:38. The express image was given the fullness of the Father, that is a lot of power.

keypurr
October 5th, 2015, 09:18 PM
John 1:1 "...with and was..." [B]not either/or. All cults are 'cults' because they think 'either/or' instead of reading plain English: "...was with God AND was God..." (both/and). How? is not as important as the reported fact. That is what every cult misses on this: Jesus Christ the Word-made-flesh, is both '...with God and was [is] God." That verse is incredibly clear.

Now try it in this language Lon.

ARAMAIC ENGLISH NEW TESTAMENT

YOCHANAN (JOHN)
Chapter 1
1. In the beginning was the Miltha. And that Miltha was with Elohim. And Elohim was that Miltha.
2. This was with Elohim in the beginning.
3. Everything existed through his hands……….

Miltha refers to the “Manifestation” of the Ruach haKodesh within Mashiyach. The physical body of Mashiyach is not the Word of YHWH, but his words and actions demonstrate the Will and Word of YHWH, which upholds observance of Torah.

Miltha is the spiritual son of Elohim (God).
Mashiyach refers to Messiah Y’shua (Jesus Christ)
YHWH is the name of the most high God.
Ruach haKodesh is the Holy Spirit.
Elohim is God or a god, it can refer to more than the creator.

The Greek to English translations only confuse the truth.

Omniskeptical
October 5th, 2015, 09:19 PM
John 1:1 "...with and was..." [B]not either/or. All cults are 'cults' because they think 'either/or' instead of reading plain English: "...was with God AND was God..." (both/and). How? is not as important as the reported fact. That is what every cult misses on this: Jesus Christ the Word-made-flesh, is both '...with God and was [is] God." That verse is incredibly clear.The passage refers to a singular logos, which is the hebrew name of God. A logos is just one statement in Greek, and the word logoi is also used in the New Testament.

For example Matthew 7:26, καὶ πᾶς ὁ ἀκούων μου τοὺς λόγους τούτους καὶ μὴ ποιῶν αὐτοὺς ὁμοιωθήσεται ἀνδρὶ μωρῷ ὅστις ᾠκοδόμησεν τὴν οἰκίαν αὐτοῦ ἐπὶ τὴν ἄμμον

"And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:"

freelight
October 6th, 2015, 12:44 AM
The angels are created beings and nowhere does it say that they are made in the image of God. That is only said of man.

You must understand that Jesus is BOTH God and man. He did not give up His deity when He came down from heaven.

When Jesus said that "Mat 24:36 KJV But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.", He was not excluding Himself, as He has the same Spirit as His Father (i.e., the Spirit of God).

Hi RD,

You may be aware that more evidence exists in more reliable manuscripts (external and internal) for the inclusion of "nor the Son" in the verse Matt. 24:36, as its clearly stated also in Mark 13:32, of the Son not knowing the time of his coming, but only the Father. If it is true that the more reliable manuscripts and external/internal evidence for the inclusion of "nor the Son" support this rendering, then to be "textually accurate" we have the Son NOT knowing, which implies limited knowledge. If you'd like to look at a good analysis of this with a conclusion see this article here (https://bible.org/article/textual-problem-matthew-2436).

Here are a few translations that DO have the inclusion of "nor the Son" in their translations because of manuscript evidence. Of course some manuscripts omit "nor the Son", but you'll see that theological issues (during the height of the Arian controversy) probably were behind the omission in some manuscripts, but not all.




Matt. 24:36

New International Version

"But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.

English Standard Version

ďBut concerning that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father only.

New American Standard Bible

"But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone.

International Standard Version

"No one knows when that day or hour will come ónot the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.

English Revised Version

But of that day and hour knoweth no one, not even the angels of heaven, neither the Son, but the Father only.

Berean Study Bible

No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.

......................

beloved57
October 6th, 2015, 01:13 AM
Jesus is God? Or Jesus is begotten of God?

Both !

MichaelCadry
October 6th, 2015, 02:24 AM
Christians here at TOL, do you believe that God and Jesus are the exact same being? Or do you think that Jesus is divine and begotten of God but not the same being?


From the words of the new testament it seems to me that Jesus is a separate entity. For example he says that even he doesn't know when the end times are, and that only God does. How could Jesus not know what God does if they are the exact same being?



Dear Greg,

You ask some VERY Pertinent questions, I must admit. Even things I didn't think of. Jesus was supposed to know when the time was near, but not the day or hour. That's all. Still, this being the case, you can tell that God is the Father and Jesus the Son, or Jesus would not be the exact same being as God. They ARE DIFFERENT!!! Well, your third post has a powerful pack to it also. About the seals being opened. Worthy is the Lamb to break the seals. I know what you are saying!! Very Good Job!!

Praise The Lord!!

Michael

:cloud9: :cloud9: :angel: :angel: :angel: :cloud9: :cloud9:

jamie
October 6th, 2015, 07:34 AM
I disagree, Jesus was baptized with the Holy Spirit AND power. Acts 10:38.


Your disagreement is with scripture, not with me. The Holy Spirit is not given through baptism, it is given through anointing which is what the Greek Christos means. Jesus of Nazareth is the Anointed One not the baptized One.


...God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit... (Acts 10:38 NKJV)

Jamie Gigliotti
October 6th, 2015, 08:35 AM
Christians here at TOL, do you believe that God and Jesus are the exact same being? Or do you think that Jesus is divine and begotten of God but not the same being?


From the words of the new testament it seems to me that Jesus is a separate entity. For example he says that even he doesn't know when the end times are, and that only God does. How could Jesus not know what God does if they are the exact same being?

In my humble opinion, the oneness of God, the oneness of the Father, Jesus and the Holy Spirit, and even those that make up the Spiritual Body of Christ, His church is beyond our earthly comprhension, our minds have limits here. I do think its awesome to try and understand God more, but with an understanding we have limits, so our pursuit won't inhibit what we can grasp. At one time in my life my desire to know the answers with absolute certainty to such questions left me thinking in my pride it was all meaningless. As if I could somehow totally understand God.

"The exact same being" question, in my understanding would be no. The differences I see that don't have to inhibit oneness are location, authority and form. The question for us to answer the best we can is what is God's oneness.

God says He fills the Heavens and the Earth, obviously that is His Spirit, as Jesus says "Our Father who art in Heaven". Jesus said many times His Father was in Heaven and He was going back to Him there In my mind the form and location really are just window dressing in our minds and the real oneness comes in the essence of who God is. The same mind, the same love, the same Holiness, the same power, the same unity among the Father, His Son and the Holy Spirit. They agree always; they are one. The only difference among them is who has the final Authority. Jesus made that perfectly clear in everything He did and said that the Father is the Orchestrator.

False Prophet
October 6th, 2015, 08:59 AM
Constantine introduced the Greek οὐσία meaning the same substance which the Father and the Son were.

Zeke
October 6th, 2015, 09:41 AM
Christians here at TOL, do you believe that God and Jesus are the exact same being? Or do you think that Jesus is divine and begotten of God but not the same being?


From the words of the new testament it seems to me that Jesus is a separate entity. For example he says that even he doesn't know when the end times are, and that only God does. How could Jesus not know what God does if they are the exact same being?

Depending on ones interpretation of the words, the strict legal aspect of the meanings of them differ from the common use of them, The Order/Priest class use them differently than the profane/common man/beast of the field under their debt scheme of the OT.

Matt 11:11 throws some unwanted light on the light Jesus represented and the meaning of his type of birth in flesh Galatians 4:28, as well as Luke 17:20-21 concerning the location of the Kingdom of God which is a inward story told in various outward drama/parabolic/allegorical ways through ancient writings. The literal obsession of the drama being actual history in the observable kingdom of men is the killer/mental slavery 2Cor 3:6.

The two Fathers, Mothers, and Siblings through scripture shows the first represents the physical birth while the second is the spiritual one in the first born of the flesh Galatians 4:24-28, Gen 32:30, not two separate physical siblings, but the dual mind becoming one/balanced in a physical kingdom/world run on perverted duality.

Right Divider
October 6th, 2015, 11:23 AM
Jesus is God the Father come in the flesh as a Son.

There are three, and the three are one and the same.

You make three different and separate Gods, and then call them one.
Total hogwash unsupported by scripture.

I guess that you think Jesus was always talking to Himself.

Ben Masada
October 6th, 2015, 11:33 AM
Neither. Jesus was neither God nor begotten of God. He was rather against the idolatry of comparing God with a man. (Deut. 4:15,16)

God's Truth
October 6th, 2015, 06:54 PM
Total hogwash unsupported by scripture.

I guess that you think Jesus was always talking to Himself.

Jesus was talking to God the Father who is invisible and lives in unapproachable light.

keypurr
October 6th, 2015, 07:02 PM
Your disagreement is with scripture, not with me. The Holy Spirit is not given through baptism, it is given through anointing which is what the Greek Christos means. Jesus of Nazareth is the Anointed One not the baptized One.


...God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit... (Acts 10:38 NKJV)

I am not in disagreement with Acts 10:38, read it all, see the word power, the power of Christ came to him.

Aimiel
October 6th, 2015, 07:13 PM
Neither. Jesus was neither God nor begotten of God. He was rather against the idolatry of comparing God with a man. (Deut. 4:15,16)He is the Only Begotton Son of The Living God.

He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am? And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

And if He actually were against being worshipped as God, He would have rebuked Thomas when He worshipped Him...

Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing. And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God. Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.

Jesus is Lord and God. You just haven't been born again yet, so you cannot see Truth.

jamie
October 6th, 2015, 10:23 PM
I am not in disagreement with Acts 10:38, read it all, see the word power, the power of Christ came to him.


God has given power to all of us.


For God has not given us a spirit of fear, but of power and of love and of a sound mind. (2 Timothy 1:7 NKJV)

Omniskeptical
October 7th, 2015, 08:05 AM
Constantine introduced the Greek οὐσία meaning the same substance which the Father and the Son were.They don't have the same existence. Constantine was a demon-deluded, drug-using emperor at best.

Omniskeptical
October 7th, 2015, 08:07 AM
Neither. Jesus was neither God nor begotten of God. He was rather against the idolatry of comparing God with a man. (Deut. 4:15,16)A miraculous birth is not idolatry. Making God to be a man or a man to be a God is.

keypurr
October 7th, 2015, 01:39 PM
God has given power to all of us.




For God has not given us a spirit of fear, but of power and of love and of a sound mind. (2 Timothy 1:7 NKJV)


I can not walk on water or calm the wind, do you have that power?

OCTOBER23
October 7th, 2015, 02:34 PM
God and Jesus are NOT the exact same being.

THERE ARE 2 GODS - THE FATHER AND JESUS AND THE HOLY SPIRIT IS THE COMBINATION OF BOTH THEIR SPIRITS.:rapture:

jamie
October 7th, 2015, 03:15 PM
I can not walk on water or calm the wind, do you have that power?

I've never needed to do that kind of stuff, but Peter walked on water.

God worked through the apostles as well as Jesus.

keypurr
October 9th, 2015, 07:15 AM
I've never needed to do that kind of stuff, but Peter walked on water.



God worked through the apostles as well as Jesus.


But can you walk on water and calm the wind?

With enough faith we most likely could. Faith can move a mountain.

But can we?

jamie
October 9th, 2015, 07:45 AM
But can we?


Did Jesus of Nazareth receive power through the Holy Spirit? Do we?

Greg Jennings
October 9th, 2015, 09:48 AM
A miraculous birth is not idolatry. Making God to be a man or a man to be a God is.

I boldened the above sentence because it's exactly why Jews and Muslims see the worship of Christ as God idolatry

Greg Jennings
October 9th, 2015, 09:49 AM
I've never needed to do that kind of stuff, but Peter walked on water.

Do you believe that you could if you were going to drown otherwise?

Right Divider
October 9th, 2015, 09:50 AM
I boldened the above sentence because it's exactly why Jews and Muslims see the worship of Christ as God idolatry
They are wrong. It's just that simple.

Greg Jennings
October 9th, 2015, 09:59 AM
They are wrong. It's just that simple.

That's your opinion. But unless you can offer some sort of proof then you should respect their opinions as well.

And no, the Bible isn't proof anymore than the Koran is. I trust you don't consider the Koran proof of anything?

Grosnick Marowbe
October 9th, 2015, 10:02 AM
I.e.
God can't destroy the earth with a flood. Why? He certainly has the ability. God can't destroy the earth again with a flood because He placed a self imposed limitation on His divine sovereignty

Do you have Scripture for that?

Grosnick Marowbe
October 9th, 2015, 10:04 AM
God and Jesus are NOT the exact same being.

THERE ARE 2 GODS - THE FATHER AND JESUS AND THE HOLY SPIRIT IS THE COMBINATION OF BOTH THEIR SPIRITS.:rapture:

Scripture??

patrick jane
October 9th, 2015, 10:07 AM
Do you have Scripture for that?

Genesis 9:11 KJV - Genesis 9:11 NIV - Genesis 9:11

Grosnick Marowbe
October 9th, 2015, 10:09 AM
That's your opinion. But unless you can offer some sort of proof then you should respect their opinions as well.

And no, the Bible isn't proof anymore than the Koran is. I trust you don't consider the Koran proof of anything?

Since you reject Bible proof, what kind of proof are you looking for?

Greg Jennings
October 9th, 2015, 10:16 AM
Since you reject Bible proof, what kind of proof are you looking for?

I only reject the Bible as proof because Christians reject any other holy book as proof. Does that make sense?

By proof I'm normally talking about tangible, measurable, real-world evidence.

Grosnick Marowbe
October 9th, 2015, 10:19 AM
I only reject the Bible as proof because Christians reject any other holy book as proof. Does that make sense?

By proof I'm normally talking about tangible, measurable, real-world evidence.

You're on a Christian Forum. Any proof used will come from a
Christian perspective. So, what are you actually looking for?
Perhaps you've chosen the wrong venue?

Greg Jennings
October 9th, 2015, 10:23 AM
You're on a Christian Forum. Any proof used will come from a
Christian perspective. So, what are you actually looking for?
Perhaps you've chosen the wrong venue?

I disagree. There are many here who see things from multiple perspectives, or from one perspective that is non-Christian. It's a surprisingly varied Christian forum

Grosnick Marowbe
October 9th, 2015, 10:26 AM
I disagree. There are many here who see things from multiple perspectives, or from one perspective that is non-Christian. It's a surprisingly varied Christian forum

There's only one "Holy Book" and that's the written Word of God. (The Bible.)

Greg Jennings
October 9th, 2015, 10:29 AM
There's only one "Holy Book" and that's the written Word of God. (The Bible.)

And a Muslim would say "there is only one "Holy Book" and that's the written Word of God (The Koran)." It's simply a matter of which faith you were brought up in for the vast majority of people

Right Divider
October 9th, 2015, 11:05 AM
That's your opinion. But unless you can offer some sort of proof then you should respect their opinions as well.

And no, the Bible isn't proof anymore than the Koran is. I trust you don't consider the Koran proof of anything?
You have a funny idea of truth where everyone's claims are just a valid as everyone else's. What a mess!

Greg Jennings
October 9th, 2015, 11:06 AM
You have a funny idea of truth where everyone's claims are just a valid as everyone else's. What a mess!

In politics it's called "democracy." In everyday life it's called "being respectful."

Ben Masada
October 9th, 2015, 11:21 AM
Neither. Jesus was neither God nor begotten of God unless you are asking from the point of view of Paul's gospel. (Acts 9:20)

Jesus was a Jew begotten of Joseph and Mary.

The only option you are left with by denying that fact is in John 8:41, that Jesus was born out of corruption.

Right Divider
October 9th, 2015, 11:21 AM
I only reject the Bible as proof because Christians reject any other holy book as proof. Does that make sense?

No.


By proof I'm normally talking about tangible, measurable, real-world evidence.
Yes, the atheistic materialist world-view.

Right Divider
October 9th, 2015, 11:22 AM
In politics it's called "democracy." In everyday life it's called "being respectful."
All views do NOT deserve the same respect, or was Hitler OK too?

Bright Raven
October 9th, 2015, 11:37 AM
I only reject the Bible as proof because Christians reject any other holy book as proof. Does that make sense?

By proof I'm normally talking about tangible, measurable, real-world evidence.

Why would you reject the truth?

John 17:17 New King James Version (NKJV)

17 Sanctify them by Your truth. Your word is truth.

jamie
October 9th, 2015, 11:46 AM
Do you believe that you could if you were going to drown otherwise?

It's the Father's choice. I'm good either way.

Greg Jennings
October 9th, 2015, 11:57 AM
All views do NOT deserve the same respect, or was Hitler OK too?

When one's views infringe on the rights of others they are no longer tolerable. That's the reason why Kentucky Kim was wrong to not give out marriage licenses. Nothing about discussing theology infringes upon one's rights.

Greg Jennings
October 9th, 2015, 11:58 AM
Why would you reject the truth?

John 17:17 New King James Version (NKJV)

17 Sanctify them by Your truth. Your word is truth.

Because your "truth" is not what everyone would consider to be "truth." I'm not rejecting your "truth" any more than you reject a Jew's or Muslim's "truth."

Greg Jennings
October 9th, 2015, 11:59 AM
Yes, the atheistic materialist world-view.

:ha:
Because all scientists are atheists, right?

Greg Jennings
October 9th, 2015, 12:00 PM
It's the Father's choice. I'm good either way.

Ok

keypurr
October 9th, 2015, 12:19 PM
Why would you reject the truth?

John 17:17 New King James Version (NKJV)

17 Sanctify them by Your truth. Your word is truth.

Folks see truth in a different way BR.

How do you know that you have truth?

Faith is one thing, truth is another, he is respecting the rights of others to think in their own way.

keypurr
October 9th, 2015, 12:21 PM
Because your "truth" is not what everyone would consider to be "truth." I'm not rejecting your "truth" any more than you reject a Jew's or Muslim's "truth."

You seem like an honest and sincere person Greg. You respect folks to think for themselves.

RCLady
October 9th, 2015, 12:32 PM
Christians here at TOL, do you believe that God and Jesus are the exact same being? Or do you think that Jesus is divine and begotten of God but not the same being?


From the words of the new testament it seems to me that Jesus is a separate entity. For example he says that even he doesn't know when the end times are, and that only God does. How could Jesus not know what God does if they are the exact same being?

This is what I believe:


The Trinity and the Incarnation

There is one God in Three Divine Persons (Father, Son and Holy Ghost). The Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Ghost is God; yet they are not three gods, but One God. The Second Person of the Blessed Trinity, the Son of God, assumed a human nature and became man from the flesh of the Virgin Mary. Our Lord Jesus Christ is one Divine Person with two natures: divine and human. He is God and man. The Trinity (One God: Father, Son and Holy Ghost) and the Incarnation are the two most essential mysteries of the Catholic Faith which no one above reason can be ignorant of and be saved.

http://www.mostholyfamilymonastery.com/catholicchurch/basic-catholic-facts/#.VhgD4Stvp-w


You will notice that when Jesus Christ speaks in His divinity He uses the word 'I' (ex. "You have heard that it was said...But I tell you...") but when He speaks in His humanity He refers to Himself as 'the Son' or 'the Son of Man' (ex. "But of that day or hour no man knoweth, neither the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but the Father.")**

**Nor the Son. Not that the Son of God is absolutely ignorant of the day of judgment, but that He knoweth it not, as our teacher; that is, He knoweth it not so as to teach it to us, as not being expedient. (Douay-Rheims footnote)

Greg Jennings
October 9th, 2015, 12:33 PM
You seem like an honest and sincere person Greg. You respect folks to think for themselves.

I appreciate that you see that keypurr, truly

Greg Jennings
October 9th, 2015, 12:35 PM
This is what I believe:




You will notice that when Jesus Christ speaks in His divinity He uses the word 'I' (ex. "You have heard that it was said...But I tell you...") but when He speaks in His humanity He refers to Himself as 'the Son' or 'the Son of Man' (ex. "But of that day or hour no man knoweth, neither the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but the Father.")**

**Nor the Son. Not that the Son of God is absolutely ignorant of the day of judgment, but that He knoweth it not, as our teacher; that is, He knoweth it not so as to teach it to us, as not being expedient. (Douay-Rheims footnote)

Interesting post. Thank you for participating

Right Divider
October 9th, 2015, 12:50 PM
When one's views infringe on the rights of others they are no longer tolerable. That's the reason why Kentucky Kim was wrong to not give out marriage licenses. Nothing about discussing theology infringes upon one's rights.
Are all laws equally valid?

Right Divider
October 9th, 2015, 12:54 PM
:ha:
Because all scientists are atheists, right?
Not all.

freelight
October 9th, 2015, 02:27 PM
Jesus is God the Father come in the flesh as a Son.

There are three, and the three are one and the same.

You make three different and separate Gods, and then call them one.

Its all 'God' just manifesting/expressing in different forms :)

I approach this here (http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4477216&postcount=187) and eslewhere.

So its not so much as having 3 gods (to the protest of monotheists) , just 3 'forms' of 'God', while 'God' in 'His' or 'Its' singular unique indivisible essence remains as pure Spirit-Energy-Consciousness. All is born out of this Singular essence, as the fundamental, original reality. In Theosophy, this is 'The Absolute', being 'pre-personal'...yet the source of all personality.

We relate to this infinite indescribable ABSOLUTE as a Personality ('Our Father-Mother), yet there are aspects of 'Deity' that are 'pre-personal' and 'trans-personal', going beyond any description of 'personality' that our finite minds can comprehend. In the context of 'God' as 'personal' and being a 'Personality', we have a tri-une assocation of divine personalities being the foundation-head, the Monad from which all sentient beings and personalities arise in the cosmos.

Whether one holds a Unitarian, Trinitarian or Modalistic view of 'God' and 'Christ', they all claim a true monotheistic theology of there being only ONE GOD, however this 'God' exists in His various forms, transformations or adaptations. Its still just 'God' in his various trans-formations. Debates are over preferred views and logics of how Christ is related to 'God', and if Christ is 'God', but how this affects anything beyond the context of one's own theology or religious culture is worth pondering.

freelight
October 9th, 2015, 02:35 PM
God and Jesus are NOT the exact same being.

THERE ARE 2 GODS - THE FATHER AND JESUS AND THE HOLY SPIRIT IS THE COMBINATION OF BOTH THEIR SPIRITS.:rapture:

See:

Lets go cosmic (http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4480914&postcount=119) :)

As far as the Holy Spirit being a combination, I suppose the one universal primordial Spirit is one essence originally no matter what differentials, combinations, mixtures or differing qualities exist or emerge from that universal Spirit, so its just 'cosmetics' on one level, and a preferred relational perspective on our part how we view the 'Godhead' inter-relating.

:surf:

God's Truth
October 9th, 2015, 03:42 PM
Its all 'God' just manifesting/expressing in different forms :)

I approach this here (http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4477216&postcount=187) and eslewhere.

So its not so much as having 3 gods (to the protest of monotheists) , just 3 'forms' of 'God', while 'God' in 'His' or 'Its' singular unique indivisible essence remains as pure Spirit-Energy-Consciousness. All is born out of this Singular essence, as the fundamental, original reality. In Theosophy, this is 'The Absolute', being 'pre-personal'...yet the source of all personality.

We relate to this infinite indescribable ABSOLUTE as a Personality ('Our Father-Mother), yet there are aspects of 'Deity' that are 'pre-personal' and 'trans-personal', going beyond any description of 'personality' that our finite minds can comprehend. In the context of 'God' as 'personal' and being a 'Personality', we have a tri-une assocation of divine personalities being the foundation-head, the Monad from which all sentient beings and personalities arise in the cosmos.

Whether one holds a Unitarian, Trinitarian or Modalistic view of 'God' and 'Christ', they all claim a true monotheistic theology of there being only ONE GOD, however this 'God' exists in His various forms, transformations or adaptations. Its still just 'God' in his various trans-formations. Debates are over preferred views and logics of how Christ is related to 'God', and if Christ is 'God', but how this affects anything beyond the context of one's own theology or religious culture is worth pondering.

There are three, and the three are the same. It is very important to know the truth. There are those who say Jesus is not God, and there are those who say Jesus is God but not the Father.

Greg Jennings
October 9th, 2015, 04:08 PM
Are all laws equally valid?

Laws of the land? Yeah. Kentucky Kim wanted to force her religion on others as a government employee. That's just wrong and she knew it.

Plus she'd been divorced four times. Talk about hypocritical.


We probably shouldn't hijack this thread with Kim Davis things, but I encourage you to bring this dialogue of yours over to the Politics forum in the thread about the Hindu girl who was fired for "being a witch."

Right Divider
October 9th, 2015, 04:13 PM
Laws of the land? Yeah. Kentucky Kim wanted to force her religion on others as a government employee. That's just wrong and she knew it.

Plus she'd been divorced four times. Talk about hypocritical.


We probably shouldn't hijack this thread with Kim Davis things, but I encourage you to bring this dialogue of yours over to the Politics forum in the thread about the Hindu girl who was fired for "being a witch."
You're off on a of a bit a tangent. I was just asking whether you think that all laws of governments were equally valid.

How does an agnostic (or atheistic) make these types of determinations? Majority opinion? Might makes right?

intojoy
October 9th, 2015, 06:55 PM
Do you have Scripture for that?


No just made it up

Greg Jennings
October 9th, 2015, 07:00 PM
You're off on a of a bit a tangent. I was just asking whether you think that all laws of governments were equally valid.

How does an agnostic (or atheistic) make these types of determinations? Majority opinion? Might makes right?

The same way any citizen makes them: by adhering to the constitution and when something is questionable, majority opinion will often lead to congress enacting policy change.

freelight
October 9th, 2015, 08:55 PM
No just made it up

Concerning the world never being destroyed by flood again, 'scripture' was provided for that here (http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4481235&postcount=78).

freelight
October 9th, 2015, 09:20 PM
There are three, and the three are the same.

Which basically agrees with the formulated orthodox creed of them all having the same 'essence', (same 'being'), but you don't allow each 'person' in the Godhead to have their own unique/separate personality or distinction as a compound unity, having a more 'modalist' perspective. Is this correct? - Your concept of 'God' is modalistic, the Father, Son and Spirit just being 'phases' of the One God, yet in this economy, is 'God' only working thru one 'phase' during any given dispensation? or are all phases inter-acting and operating in the cosmos at every moment?


It is very important to know the truth.

Well,...depends on whose 'truth' or what 'version' is being proposed, but over all,....our perception of 'truth' will be 'relative' and 'conditioned' by various filter-factors. All truth in this limited mortal space-time conditioned world, is 'relative'. What is Absolute Truth or Reality...just IS. - everything 'else' is distorted, conceptualized, compartmentalized by mind.


There are those who say Jesus is not God, and there are those who say Jesus is God but not the Father.

Which makes for a wonderful con-fusion eh? Jesus the Son, represents his Father-God to us, serving to reveal Him to us. - recognizing this is sufficient, to behold 'God' in 'Christ', Jesus being his 'agent' of 'agency' ( for creation and redemption).

As far as Jesus being the Father manifested in the flesh, this counters distinction of persons and relational logics as Jesus relates to his Father being in heaven (in Spirit, being 'transcendental', 'all-pervading'.... a 'presence' greater than his own localized form), showing clear separation of personalities RELATING to one another (even if you mesh them all together as one essence, differentiated somehow to be able to 'relate' to one another). You STILL have relational difference between 'persons' distinguished THRU 'relationship'. Otherwise there is no relationship, just a succession of phases or modes of 'God'.

Grosnick Marowbe
October 9th, 2015, 09:57 PM
You have a funny idea of truth where everyone's claims are just a valid as everyone else's. What a mess!

Yeah, he has a very eclectic view of truth vs. untruth.

Right Divider
October 9th, 2015, 10:00 PM
The same way any citizen makes them: by adhering to the constitution and when something is questionable, majority opinion will often lead to congress enacting policy change.
So you think that the constitution is sacred and that the majority is always wise and benevolent?

Grosnick Marowbe
October 9th, 2015, 10:11 PM
So you think that the constitution is scared and that the majority is always wise and benevolent?

You need to add this guy to your list?

Greg Jennings
October 9th, 2015, 11:50 PM
So you think that the constitution is scared and that the majority is always wise and benevolent?

I trust you mean "sacred."

It's the foundation of our country, so in a sense yes it is sacred.

In this country, the majority always represents the will of the people, which is the whole point of democracy. Sometimes it has to evolve, but we've been shown throughout history that the most benevolent and wise viewpoint always wins out in the end

Greg Jennings
October 9th, 2015, 11:54 PM
Yeah, he has a very eclectic view of truth vs. untruth.

If you hadn't been born to a Christian family, but instead to a Muslim one, you'd think that the Quran was ultimate truth and that the Bible was inaccurate.

You were born into a Christian family, and therefore believe the Bible to be truth and the Quran inaccurate.

If your opinion on something is so heavily affected by which denomination you were placed into at birth, then neither side is much more convincing than the other. As such, you need to show respect for other views besides your own.

Amazing to me that that is somehow a radical opinion here when a fellow by the name of Jesus said "love thy neighbor as thyself." He didn't preach "tell thy neighbor how stupid he is and totally disregard him because he isn't the same religion as you." Or maybe I just missed that sermon?

steko
October 10th, 2015, 12:02 AM
I trust you mean "sacred."

It's the foundation of our country, so in a sense yes it is sacred.

In this country, the majority always represents the will of the people, which is the whole point of democracy. Sometimes it has to evolve, but we've been shown throughout history that the most benevolent and wise viewpoint always wins out in the end

We were given in the beginning a constitutional republic, a nation under law, not a pure democracy, which is the rule of 51+ percent.

In a pure democracy, if 51 per cent decide that everyone by the name of Greg are non-human and need to be terminated then majority rules.

In a nation ruled by law, based on principles of life, liberty and ownership of property, Greg's life has great value, no matter what a whimsical majority thinks.

steko
October 10th, 2015, 12:06 AM
If you hadn't been born to a Christian family, but instead to a Muslim one, you'd think that the Quran was ultimate truth and that the Bible was inaccurate.

You were born into a Christian family, and therefore believe the Bible to be truth and the Quran inaccurate.

If your opinion on something is so heavily affected by which denomination you were placed into at birth, then neither side is much more convincing than the other. As such, you need to show respect for other views besides your own.

Amazing to me that that is somehow a radical opinion here when a fellow by the name of Jesus said "love thy neighbor as thyself." He didn't preach "tell thy neighbor how stupid he is and totally disregard him because he isn't the same religion as you." Or maybe I just missed that sermon?

I was born into a pantheistic family and through the process of
studying and practicing various belief systems, I came to the conclusion that Biblical Christianity is true and all others are false.

freelight
October 10th, 2015, 01:23 AM
If you hadn't been born to a Christian family, but instead to a Muslim one, you'd think that the Quran was ultimate truth and that the Bible was inaccurate.

You were born into a Christian family, and therefore believe the Bible to be truth and the Quran inaccurate.

If your opinion on something is so heavily affected by which denomination you were placed into at birth, then neither side is much more convincing than the other. As such, you need to show respect for other views besides your own.

Amazing to me that that is somehow a radical opinion here when a fellow by the name of Jesus said "love thy neighbor as thyself." He didn't preach "tell thy neighbor how stupid he is and totally disregard him because he isn't the same religion as you." Or maybe I just missed that sermon?

This is something for all to consider,...for we are often the product of our environment, upbringing, culture, circumstance, education, etc.....unless other factors play into our choice of religion, philosophical perspectives, etc.. Some of us are more 'rigid'(conservative), others more flexible(liberal/eclectic),...but we have to look at our 'conditioning' concerning religious beliefs, be intellectually honest about such.

Now considering, if you were born into a devoutly religious family of another religious faith or culture,...you'd be conditioned to accept that belief-structure as 'true' or 'orthodox'. You would not know anything else unless you began your own search or studies outside that 'system'.

The fact is, you cannot put 'God' in a box, much less contain the infinite or limit 'God' to only one religious cult-ure or tradition, since 'God' is omnipresent, a universal Spirit, and all-pervading consciousness. 'God' is not contained by only one religious cult, but contains all.... which are but varying expressions and forms of 'God'.

Omniskeptical
October 10th, 2015, 07:51 AM
I boldened the above sentence because it's exactly why Jews and Muslims see the worship of Christ as God idolatryAre they wrong? really...?

God's Truth
October 10th, 2015, 08:21 AM
Which basically agrees with the formulated orthodox creed of them all having the same 'essence', (same 'being'),
That is not true, for they do not believe the same essence is the Spirit.



but you don't allow each 'person' in the Godhead to have their own unique/separate personality or distinction as a compound unity, having a more 'modalist' perspective.
I am no more a modalist than a trinitarian.

Common sense should tell you it is wrong to say the Father and Jesus are different and separate.




Is this correct? - Your concept of 'God' is modalistic, the Father, Son and Spirit just being 'phases' of the One God, yet in this economy, is 'God' only working thru one 'phase' during any given dispensation? or are all phases inter-acting and operating in the cosmos at every moment?
I am not a modalist. Modalist believe that there are three, as the trinitarians believe, but they do not believe the three exist at the same time.



Well,...depends on whose 'truth' or what 'version' is being proposed, but over all,....our perception of 'truth' will be 'relative' and 'conditioned' by various filter-factors. All truth in this limited mortal space-time conditioned world, is 'relative'. What is Absolute Truth or Reality...just IS. - everything 'else' is distorted, conceptualized, compartmentalized by mind.


Do you want some religion’s truth? Do you want some manmade truth?
Or do you want God’s Truth?
You will not find God’s Truth by reading a book and believing it.
You will only find God’s Truth by finding Jesus’ words in the Holy Bible and doing what Jesus says.


Which makes for a wonderful con-fusion eh? Jesus the Son, represents his Father-God to us, serving to reveal Him to us. - recognizing this is sufficient, to behold 'God' in 'Christ', Jesus being his 'agent' of 'agency' ( for creation and redemption).

As far as Jesus being the Father manifested in the flesh, this counters distinction of persons and relational logics as Jesus relates to his Father being in heaven (in Spirit, being 'transcendental', 'all-pervading'.... a 'presence' greater than his own localized form), showing clear separation of personalities RELATING to one another (even if you mesh them all together as one essence, differentiated somehow to be able to 'relate' to one another). You STILL have relational difference between 'persons'distinguished THRU 'relationship'. Otherwise there is no relationship, just a succession of phases or modes of 'God'.
Jesus is God the Father come to earth in the flesh as a Son.

Right Divider
October 10th, 2015, 09:19 AM
I trust you mean "sacred."

Indeed, I did. It was a typo.


It's the foundation of our country, so in a sense yes it is sacred.

What about other countries?


In this country, the majority always represents the will of the people, which is the whole point of democracy. Sometimes it has to evolve, but we've been shown throughout history that the most benevolent and wise viewpoint always wins out in the end
That is just fantasy there Greg.

Firstly, this country is NOT a democracy; it is a democratic republic. It is that way specifically to avoid a direct majority rule. Look at the way votes are counted in the presidential election. That should tell you something.

It seems that you believe that the majority could pass a law denying the minority any rights and that would still be OK, since it's the majorities will.

I think that the old saying says it very well, "Democracy is two wolves and a sheep deciding on what to have for lunch".

This thread is about the deity of the Lord Jesus Christ and we who trust Him believe that He gets to make the rules that people live by since He created us.

Right Divider
October 10th, 2015, 09:25 AM
If you hadn't been born to a Christian family, but instead to a Muslim one, you'd think that the Quran was ultimate truth and that the Bible was inaccurate.

You were born into a Christian family, and therefore believe the Bible to be truth and the Quran inaccurate.

If your opinion on something is so heavily affected by which denomination you were placed into at birth, then neither side is much more convincing than the other. As such, you need to show respect for other views besides your own.

It seems to me that you think that Greg's opinion should hold the most weight.


Amazing to me that that is somehow a radical opinion here when a fellow by the name of Jesus said "love thy neighbor as thyself." He didn't preach "tell thy neighbor how stupid he is and totally disregard him because he isn't the same religion as you." Or maybe I just missed that sermon?
So you believe in some of the things that Jesus said, but not others? If guess you just like the ones that you like.

Omniskeptical
October 10th, 2015, 11:19 AM
Neither. Jesus was neither God nor begotten of God unless you are asking from the point of view of Paul's gospel. (Acts 9:20)

Jesus was a Jew begotten of Joseph and Mary.

The only option you are left with by denying that fact is in John 8:41, that Jesus was born out of corruption.Do you deny Bar Kochba was a son of a whore then?

1Mind1Spirit
October 10th, 2015, 12:01 PM
But can you walk on water and calm the wind?

With enough faith we most likely could. Faith can move a mountain.

But can we?

God had proven to His son many times he could trust Him.

At least for four thousand years before he incarnated.

You are confusing the meaning of power here.

It is authority.

God gave him authority to forgive sins, cast out devils and much more.

When God's son emptied himself he became least in the kingdom of heaven.

But still greater than John the Baptist.

Just because he came here in the flesh did not disqualify him from being in the kingdom.

This is why He said in another place the son of man which is in heaven.

Jesus was anointed with authority at his baptism.

And at that time was still least in the kingdom of heaven.

After His obedience of going to the cross, God has rewarded His son with everything that He had.

Now he is the greatest of all creation in the kingdom of heaven.

Christ's first and greatest act of faith in his Father was emptying himself and becoming a man.

Stop belittling him Keypurr.

Right Divider
October 10th, 2015, 12:37 PM
God had proven to His son many times he could trust Him.

At least for four thousand years before he incarnated.

You are confusing the meaning of power here.

It is authority.

God gave him authority to forgive sins, cast out devils and much more.

When God's son emptied himself he became least in the kingdom of heaven.

But still greater than John the Baptist.

Just because he came here in the flesh did not disqualify him from being in the kingdom.

This is why He said in another place the son of man which is in heaven.

Jesus was anointed with authority at his baptism.

And at that time was still least in the kingdom of heaven.

After His obedience of going to the cross, God has rewarded His son with everything that He had.

Now he is the greatest of all creation in the kingdom of heaven.

Christ's first and greatest act of faith in his Father was emptying himself and becoming a man.

Stop belittling him Keypurr.
That's a lot of confused talk with not a single scripture reference to back it up.

1Mind1Spirit
October 10th, 2015, 12:40 PM
That's a lot of confused talk with not a single scripture reference to back it up.

I'll lay money every scripture that backs it up jumped into your mind.

Do not resist the Holy Spirit.

Right Divider
October 10th, 2015, 01:08 PM
I'll lay money every scripture that backs it up jumped into your mind.

Do not resist the Holy Spirit.
You gambled wrong. The scripture that came to mind refutes what you said.

Do not resist the Holy Spirit.

1Mind1Spirit
October 10th, 2015, 01:16 PM
You gambled wrong. The scripture that came to mind refutes what you said.

Do not resist the Holy Spirit.

Refute away, boy.

Yer sayin' so wont cut it.

freelight
October 10th, 2015, 01:28 PM
You have a funny idea of truth where everyone's claims are just a valid as everyone else's. What a mess!

A universal omnipresent reality is the same one common to all sentient beings,.....this reality is at the heart of existence itself, including the center and circumference of all, and beyond....as The Infinite.

Our perception, interpretation, translation of 'truth' (particularly from a theological perspective) may vary by many different factors, among them our upbringing, culture, education, philosophical disposition, religious exposure, psychological proclivities, etc.

It still stands as we shared earlier,...that it might have been that if you were born into a different culture within a different religious tradition, that you'd be 'conditioned' to believe in the 'theology' of that particular tradition. You cannot say otherwise, because all you know is the 'situational-context' in which your own 'theology' has taken its present form. I find keeping an open mind as an 'eclectic' and even more critical mind as a 'theosophist' (I mean in general at this point since I'm still researching Blavatasky's teachings (http://www.blavatskyarchives.com/) as far as particulars go), is a better way to go, since all religious traditions and universal principles/archetypes are 'considered' and 'studied' as how they 'relate' to the whole, as to what universal truths and principles lie therein. Such is the 'Perennial Philosophy' (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perennial_philosophy)....or the wisdom of the ages.

No one religious cult or tradition has a monopoly on the totality of truth, but the esoteric laws and principles contained in most all the world religions and smaller cults of various note, can be studied.

1Mind1Spirit
October 10th, 2015, 01:29 PM
I'll make it easy for you, Right Divider.

Start by refuting this.

When God's son took on flesh he ceased from his own works.

I'll be back later. :)

Right Divider
October 10th, 2015, 02:06 PM
Refute away, boy.

Yer sayin' so wont cut it.
Just in case you're new to the earth --- it's the person MAKING the claim that needs to SUPPORT their claim.

Until you do that, the ball is in your court!

Right Divider
October 10th, 2015, 02:07 PM
I'll make it easy for you, Right Divider.

Start by refuting this.

When God's son took on flesh he ceased from his own works.

I'll be back later. :)
Again, where is the scripture?

freelight
October 10th, 2015, 02:10 PM
That is not true, for they do not believe the same essence is the Spirit.

We'll have to explore that a bit more then, as far as particulars go ;)

I was just noting that Trinitarian theology holds that all 3 divine personalities share the same 'essence', that 'essence' is indivisible being 'one', yet the 3 personalities in that 'Godhead' are unique, distinct unto themselves within that compound unity. Since 'God' is Spirit, of course they are "one in spirit". Apart from our terms and definition,....its just semantics.


I am no more a modalist than a trinitarian.

Noted. But there would still seem to be some problems with your view to some people, relationally speaking, since Jesus claimed the Father was greater than he, besides many instances of Jesus talking to himself?, and clearly referring to have his own 'will', yet submitting his will to the Fathers (this indicates 2 persons, one subjecting themselves to the other),...and we could go on.

I'm just curious about your 'Christology', and probing some of the finer or more subtle points.


Common sense should tell you it is wrong to say the Father and Jesus are different and separate.

I think I've clarified here and elsewhere, that relationally...the Father and Jesus are clearly different/separate personalities, and RELATE to each other as such (at least in the gospels narratives). I don't think there could be 'commoner' sense to see that much.

There is nothing wrong with recognizing the spiritual unity (or 'oneness') between Jesus and the Father, but making them the same 'being' runs into some metaphysical complications. Note too that in John 17 Jesus is praying that we be ONE with him and he and the Father are one, were we are all one in 'spiritual community'. Does that make us 'God the Father'? Also note Paul's metaphor of we being the 'body of Christ'. Don't forget, much of these 'terms' are 'figurative'.


I am not a modalist. Modalist believe that there are three, as the trinitarians believe, but they do not believe the three exist at the same time.

Noted.


Do you want some religionís truth? Do you want some manmade truth?
Or do you want Godís Truth?
You will not find Godís Truth by reading a book and believing it.
You will only find Godís Truth by finding Jesusí words in the Holy Bible and doing what Jesus says.

You've touted this line before. All we have are the canonized gospels in the NT to go by, since you probably only 'assume' those as the official or accurate records of Jesus words, however I don't since I draw from other re-sources as well. But in any case,...the clear distinction between Jesus and 'God' in the gospel accounts are plentiful, and rational. Doing what Jesus says is another issue altogether! (you've got lots of folks worshipping an 'image' or 'concept' of Jesus, but rejecting a lot of what he says, due to dispensational reasons, and whatever).


Jesus is God the Father come to earth in the flesh as a Son.

This depends on how you qualify and define your statement. That Jesus came to earth and revealed 'God' to us, is a reasonable assumption, for he came as the 'agent' or 'representative' of 'God', God's Messenger/Prophet. He was anointed by 'God', and filled with God's Spirit,...so sure, you could say he was 'God' manifesting in the flesh if that concept pleases you.

Some of these propositions are really semantics or 'cosmetics', until we see that most of us agree in the fundamental import of Jesus ministry and teaching, minus the frills. As I've share before,...what really matter is what Jesus COMMUNICATES as the manifestation of God to us, and how we also with him join in making ourselves yieled vessels to ALSO manifest and express God. That's the main essential here, to know God, be like him, obey his word (divine laws/principles) and to grow in love, becoming more perfect like our Father in heaven. Christologies may differ, and they do within Christendom,...but the essentials remain.

keypurr
October 10th, 2015, 02:35 PM
God had proven to His son many times he could trust Him.

At least for four thousand years before he incarnated.

You are confusing the meaning of power here.

It is authority.

God gave him authority to forgive sins, cast out devils and much more.

When God's son emptied himself he became least in the kingdom of heaven.

But still greater than John the Baptist.

Just because he came here in the flesh did not disqualify him from being in the kingdom.

This is why He said in another place the son of man which is in heaven.

Jesus was anointed with authority at his baptism.

And at that time was still least in the kingdom of heaven.

After His obedience of going to the cross, God has rewarded His son with everything that He had.

Now he is the greatest of all creation in the kingdom of heaven.

Christ's first and greatest act of faith in his Father was emptying himself and becoming a man.

Stop belittling him Keypurr.

Your confusing the man and the spirit he was given. Christ had the power to create everything. Christ was spirit not man. Jesus was a man, he was given the power of Christ at his bsptism. That is stated quite clearly in Acts 10:38. I do not belittle my Lord, I just tell it like it is. Jesus became the Christ when Christ became flesh. That is what I see as truth, not the misconseptions taught in church. Jesus was never in heaven til he was raised from the dead. But the Christ in him was, until you understand that you will never understand my thoughts. The son that is mentioned in Heb 1, is much more than the man Jesus.

Grosnick Marowbe
October 10th, 2015, 02:48 PM
Your confusing the man and the spirit he was given. Christ had the power to create everything. Christ was spirit not man. Jesus was a man, he was given the power of Christ at his bsptism. That is stated quite clearly in Acts 10:38. I do not belittle my Lord, I just tell it like it is. Jesus became the Christ when Christ became flesh. That is what I see as truth, not the misconseptions taught in church. Jesus was never in heaven til he was raised from the dead. But the Christ in him was, until you understand that you will never understand my thoughts. The son that is mentioned in Heb 1, is much more than the man Jesus.

Still working on your "demented Theorizations" I see.

keypurr
October 10th, 2015, 02:49 PM
Still working on your "demented Theorizations" I see.

Amen, God's work never ends.

Lon
October 10th, 2015, 03:11 PM
Jesus is God? Or Jesus is begotten of God? Yes, both/and John 1:1 "...was with AND was God."
How? I don't know. It is just plainly expressed that your question tries to divide what is indivisible. Hope that helps.


Christians here at TOL, do you believe that God and Jesus are the exact same being? Or do you think that Jesus is divine and begotten of God but not the same being?
One God, somehow "with and was" as clearly expressed.


From the words of the new testament it seems to me that Jesus is a separate entity.
Half right, or completely missing the ball, however you'd examine that scripture and others.


For example he says that even he doesn't know when the end times are, and that only God does. How could Jesus not know what God does if they are the exact same being?
Father and Son are separate, yet are "one" John 10:30. This particular question is yet reflected in John 1:1 as both separate and the same. Such is beyond our logic and finite minds to adequately grasp and so the question, if answered by finite logic, would likewise be necessarily inadequate. There are logical responses, I have no idea if any are 'accurate or right.' I simply believe that at the time Jesus said it Matthew 24:36, it was true. I may not be true now, for whatever reason, or it may yet be. It really doesn't answer anything else for us but there is nothing wrong with a questioning mind. There may well be everything wrong, however, with a mind that locks onto an answer that isn't given. Because of this, this isolated verse 'cannot' steer my theology about God and His one-ness and separateness. I dare not go beyond scripture to speculate. If His Spirit makes it one day plain to me, with clear scripture, I'll embrace that scripture but embracing separateness without acknowledging one-ness, is wrong as is embracing God's one-ness and denying His separateness. Both are inextricably woven and given together as His nature in scripture.

John 1:1

1Mind1Spirit
October 10th, 2015, 07:22 PM
Your confusing the man and the spirit he was given.


Nope.

Yer the only one confused.

Where you run amiss is thinking that a spirit is not a soul.

The spirit and soul of God's son took on a flesh body.

In Mary's womb.

Not at his baptism.

1Mind1Spirit
October 10th, 2015, 07:54 PM
Again, where is the scripture?

That God's son was working before he came here.


John 5:17 KJV


17 But Jesus answered them, My Father worketh hitherto , and I work .



Jesus ceased from his works.

John 9:4 KJV


4 I must work the works of him that sent me, while it is day: the night cometh , when no man can work .


Notice how Jesus was restricted until his baptism of fire at the cross.


Luke 12:50 KJV


50 But I have a baptism to be baptized with ; and how am I straitened till it be accomplished !

keypurr
October 10th, 2015, 07:58 PM
Nope.

Yer the only one confused.

Where you run amiss is thinking that a spirit is not a soul.

The spirit and soul of God's son took on a flesh body.

In Mary's womb.

Not at his baptism.

I respect your right to disagree. But don't ever think that I do not respect my God or my Lord. I see them in a deeper way than most.

patrick jane
October 10th, 2015, 08:00 PM
I respect your right to disagree. But don't ever think that I do not respect my God or my Lord. I see them in a deeper way than most.

Proverbs 26:8 KJV

1Mind1Spirit
October 10th, 2015, 08:14 PM
I respect your right to disagree. But don't ever think that I do not respect my God or my Lord. I see them in a deeper way than most.

What does that have to do with my post?

How many souls do you think the son of God had?

patrick jane
October 10th, 2015, 08:17 PM
What does that have to do with my post?

How many souls do you think the son of God had?

39,476

1Mind1Spirit
October 10th, 2015, 08:22 PM
39,476

Watch you talkin' bout, Willis? ;)

keypurr
October 10th, 2015, 08:23 PM
What does that have to do with my post?

How many souls do you think the son of God had?

You said that I belittled Jesus Christ in you past post. I took it as it was written. I never belittled him.

The son of God existed at the start of creation, that was not Jesus. That was the spiritual son, the express image of the creator. This is the son that lowered himself to become flesh in Jesus, the body prepared for him. They became one. This all happened at the anointing of Jesus. Not before. The Seed came with the power of his Father, the power to lay the foundation of the Universe. That is the power he received in Acts 10:38.

patrick jane
October 10th, 2015, 08:26 PM
Watch you talkin' bout, Willis? ;)

50 billion ?

1Mind1Spirit
October 10th, 2015, 08:34 PM
You said that I belittled Jesus Christ in you past post. I took it as it was written. I never belittled him.

The son of God existed at the start of creation, that was not Jesus. That was the spiritual son, the express image of the creator. This is the son that lowered himself to become flesh in Jesus, the body prepared for him. They became one. This all happened at the anointing of Jesus. Not before. The Seed came with the power of his Father, the power to lay the foundation of the Universe. That is the power he received in Acts 10:38.

Answer my question.

How many souls do you think the son of God had?

Or do you reckon he split his soul in half and then merged with Jesus to complete it or what?

C'mon man yer looney tunes.:chuckle:

1Mind1Spirit
October 10th, 2015, 08:36 PM
50 billion ?

One.

keypurr
October 10th, 2015, 08:42 PM
Answer my question.

How many souls do you think the son of God had?

Or do you reckon he split his soul in half and then merged with Jesus to complete it or what?

C'mon man yer looney tunes.:chuckle:

Did you read my post? I said they became one. What does that mean to you?

Define your definition of soul. Jesus existed to be the holder of the seed. You do not understand that. How many spirits can be in you? Jesus cast out a legion in one person.

I am either crazy or enlighten, the majority thought the Apostles were crazy. You decide for yourself.

patrick jane
October 10th, 2015, 08:44 PM
One.

oh yeah

1Mind1Spirit
October 10th, 2015, 08:50 PM
Did you read my post? I said they became one. What does that mean to you?

Define your definition of soul. Jesus existed to be the holder of the seed. You do not understand that. How many spirits can be in you? Jesus cast out a legion in one person.

I am either crazy or enlighten, the majority thought the Apostles were crazy. You decide for yourself.

Soul is the awareness that one is.

God is spirit, yet he has a mind and soul.

So does his son.

1Mind1Spirit
October 10th, 2015, 08:55 PM
oh yeah

:granite:

keypurr
October 10th, 2015, 08:58 PM
Soul is the awareness that one is.

God is spirit, yet he has a mind and soul.

Same with his son.

Jesus Christ became one in the flesh, why would you ask the question in the first place?

1Mind1Spirit
October 10th, 2015, 09:14 PM
Jesus Christ became one in the flesh,

Jesus Christ became one what in the flesh?



why would you ask the question in the first place?

To find out what yer thinkin'.

Dont tell me yer thinkin' Jesus and Christ became one soul.

That is an impossibility.

God's Truth
October 11th, 2015, 12:03 AM
We'll have to explore that a bit more then, as far as particulars go

I was just noting that Trinitarian theology holds that all 3 divine personalities share the same 'essence', that 'essence' is indivisible being 'one', yet the 3 personalities in that 'Godhead' are unique, distinct unto themselves within that compound unity. Since 'God' is Spirit, of course they are "one in spirit". Apart from our terms and definition,....its just semantics.
It is absurd that the trinitarian doctrine says the same essence is not the Spirit. The trinitarian doctrine says their doctrine is not explainable. Since they cannot explain their doctrine, they should stop trying to defend it and call it true.


Noted. But there would still seem to be some problems with your view to some people, relationally speaking, since Jesus claimed the Father was greater than he,
God did not pretend to be a Man; He really came as a Man. Of course, God the Father in heaven is Greater than being in the likeness of sinful flesh.


besides many instances of Jesus talking to himself?,
Why do you think Jesus was talking to himself? Donít you remember I said there are three?


and clearly referring to have his own 'will', yet submitting his will to the Fathers (this indicates 2 persons, one subjecting themselves to the other),...and we could go on.
There are two, and they are the same. Jesus only did his Fatherís will. Jesus only said what the Father said. Jesus only did what the Father did.
John 5:19 Jesus gave them this answer: "Very truly I tell you, the Son can do nothing by himself; he can do only what he sees his Father doing, because whatever the Father does the Son also does.

John 8:28 So Jesus said, "When you have lifted up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am he and that I do nothing on my own but speak just what the Father has taught me.

John 12:49 For I did not speak on my own, but the Father who sent me commanded me to say all that I have spoken.

John 12:50 I know that his command leads to eternal life. So whatever I say is just what the Father has told me to say."



I'm just curious about your 'Christology', and probing some of the finer or more subtle points.
I am glad to discuss it with you.


I think I've clarified here and elsewhere, that relationally...the Father and Jesus are clearly different/separate personalities, and RELATE to each other as such (at least in the gospels narratives). I don't think there could be 'commoner' sense to see that much.
There is nothing separate about God the Father and Jesus Christ the Son.
Even when we see Jesus, Jesus says we see the Father.



There is nothing wrong with recognizing the spiritual unity (or 'oneness') between Jesus and the Father, but making them the same 'being' runs into some metaphysical complications. Note too that in John 17 Jesus is praying that we be ONE with him and he and the Father are one, were we are all one in 'spiritual community'. Does that make us 'God the Father'? Also note Paul's metaphor of we being the 'body of Christ'. Don't forget, much of these 'terms' are 'figurative'.
Jesus put us in him so that he can put us in the Father.
That shows us that they are the same.
Jesus is God with a body.


You've touted this line before. All we have are the canonized gospels in the NT to go by, since you probably only 'assume' those as the official or accurate records of Jesus words, however I don't since I draw from other re-sources as well. But in any case,...the clear distinction between Jesus and 'God' in the gospel accounts are plentiful, and rational. Doing what Jesus says is another issue altogether! (you've got lots of folks worshipping an 'image' or 'concept' of Jesus, but rejecting a lot of what he says, due to dispensational reasons, and whatever).
The whole New Testament is Jesusí words.
You would know the whole Bible is true by finding out the way Jesus says.
See John 7:17.

This depends on how you qualify and define your statement. That Jesus came to earth and revealed 'God' to us, is a reasonable assumption, for he came as the 'agent' or 'representative' of 'God', God's Messenger/Prophet. He was anointed by 'God', and filled with God's Spirit,...so sure, you could say he was 'God' manifesting in the flesh if that concept pleases you.
Jesus came from heaven.


No one has ascended into heaven except the one who descended from heaven--the Son of Man. See John 3:13.

God sent his Son into the world. John 3:17.

Jesus came from the Father. See John 1:14.

Jesus came down from heaven. See John 6:38. For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me.

John 3:13 No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven--the Son of Man.

John 6:62
Then what if you see the Son of Man ascend to where he was before!


John 17:5 And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.

John 17:24 "Father, I want those you have given me to be with me where I am, and to see my glory, the glory you have given me because you loved me before the creation of the world.



Some of these propositions are really semantics or 'cosmetics', until we see that most of us agree in the fundamental import of Jesus ministry and teaching, minus the frills. As I've share before,...what really matter is what Jesus COMMUNICATES as the manifestation of God to us, and how we also with him join in making ourselves yieled vessels to ALSO manifest and express God. That's the main essential here, to know God, be like him, obey his word (divine laws/principles) and to grow in love, becoming more perfect like our Father in heaven. Christologies may differ, and they do within Christendom,...but the essentials remain.
Jesus spoke to me and revealed himself to me because I did exactly as he said to do in the Holy Bible.

RBBI
October 11th, 2015, 07:05 AM
Let me take another stab at this. Keypurr, you see something, but you're also missing something.

Jesus, the flesh man, had a different father than normal men. That mean's he didn't have the same seed/spirit, as say, the Pharisees he rebuked telling them they were of their father the devil. The spirit is as a male because it plants the seed. Since all seeds bear fruit after their own kind, His kind was the Father.

So He has this Seed, yet clearly it was not "activated" until He was 30. If it had been, He'd have been healing his playmates, and walking on water then. He didn't. So why didn't He?

We are told elsewhere: ONE PLANTS, ANOTHER WATERS, but HaShem gives the increase. Who is the another that waters the Seed? Put another way, what happened to the Seed when the dove came down? The Seed was CAUGHT UP into His mother's womb, New Jerusalem, BORN FROM ABOVE, as the pattern Son, which the Father then witnessed to by saying, this is my beloved Son.

The Son Seed is not one, but two in union; just as with 100% natural men, He bears characteristics of both father and mother. For this cause shall a man leave Father AND MOTHER, and cleave unto His wife. Once He was caught up to mother, He could then "leave" her to cleave unto His wife, ie. His true body that is JOINED TO HIM IN THE SAME WAY.

The "lovely" Greek obscured this by the translators choosing "born again" instead of born from ABOVE. A WORLD of difference, since our mother wisdom built New Jerusalem, the city made without hands that our Father Abraham looked for, is that place we are to be born from. Peace

oatmeal
October 11th, 2015, 07:44 AM
Christians here at TOL, do you believe that God and Jesus are the exact same being? Or do you think that Jesus is divine and begotten of God but not the same being?


From the words of the new testament it seems to me that Jesus is a separate entity. For example he says that even he doesn't know when the end times are, and that only God does. How could Jesus not know what God does if they are the exact same being?

Since scriptures differentiate between God and His son, so should we. Several examples are Acts 2:22-36, I Timothy 2:5, John 20:31, Romans 1:1-4, 10:9, John 10:29,14:28 etc.

As to your second question, what is your definition of "divine"?

II Peter 1:3-4 states that we can partake of the divine nature. That being the case, are we God? Divine therefore, cannot mean being God, but rather of or proceeding or the result of God. We can partake of those things that proceed from God, like love, light, truth, salvation, good works, but we cannot be God anymore than Jesus could be God himself. (See first paragraph above.)

RBBI
October 11th, 2015, 01:19 PM
Since scriptures differentiate between God and His son, so should we. Several examples are Acts 2:22-36, I Timothy 2:5, John 20:31, Romans 1:1-4, 10:9, John 10:29,14:28 etc.

Amen...

1Mind1Spirit
October 11th, 2015, 02:34 PM
Let me take another stab at this. Keypurr, you see something, but you're also missing something.

Jesus, the flesh man, had a different father than normal men. That mean's he didn't have the same seed/spirit, as say, the Pharisees he rebuked telling them they were of their father the devil. The spirit is as a male because it plants the seed. Since all seeds bear fruit after their own kind, His kind was the Father.

So He has this Seed, yet clearly it was not "activated" until He was 30. If it had been, He'd have been healing his playmates, and walking on water then. He didn't. So why didn't He?

We are told elsewhere: ONE PLANTS, ANOTHER WATERS, but HaShem gives the increase. Who is the another that waters the Seed? Put another way, what happened to the Seed when the dove came down? The Seed was CAUGHT UP into His mother's womb, New Jerusalem, BORN FROM ABOVE, as the pattern Son, which the Father then witnessed to by saying, this is my beloved Son.

The Son Seed is not one, but two in union; just as with 100% natural men, He bears characteristics of both father and mother. For this cause shall a man leave Father AND MOTHER, and cleave unto His wife. Once He was caught up to mother, He could then "leave" her to cleave unto His wife, ie. His true body that is JOINED TO HIM IN THE SAME WAY.

The "lovely" Greek obscured this by the translators choosing "born again" instead of born from ABOVE. A WORLD of difference, since our mother wisdom built New Jerusalem, the city made without hands that our Father Abraham looked for, is that place we are to be born from. Peace

Enlightening.


1 Corinthians 2:13 KJV


13 Which things also we speak , not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth ; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

keypurr
October 11th, 2015, 08:28 PM
Jesus Christ became one what in the flesh?




To find out what yer thinkin'.

Dont tell me yer thinkin' Jesus and Christ became one soul.

That is an impossibility.


Nothing is impossible for the creator.

I am saying the spirit son, a spirit being, dwelled in the flesh son.

Is the spirit and soul the same to you?

Is the brain the mind, or the storage place for the mind?

A man can have many spirits, demons, in him. Does he have a soul for each demon?

Jesus, the flesh son became one with the spirit son of God.

Think deeper friend.

1Mind1Spirit
October 11th, 2015, 08:59 PM
Nothing is impossible for the creator.


It was impossible for death to have dominion over him.



I am saying the spirit son, a spirit being, dwelled in the flesh son.

I know and you are wrong.

The son of God came in the flesh through Mary's womb.

The Father dwelled in his flesh son.




Is the spirit and soul the same to you?

No.

Every spirit has a soul.





Is the brain the mind, or the storage place for the mind?

The brain is flesh, a part of the body that contains the spirit, the mind and the soul of God's offspring, man.



A man can have many spirits, demons, in him. Does he have a soul for each demon?

Spirits can have influence on a man's mind.

Every Spirit has it's own soul as well as a name.




Jesus, the flesh son became one with the spirit son of God.

Jesus was the spirit, soul and mind of the son of God.



Think deeper friend.

What's my handle on here friend?

keypurr
October 11th, 2015, 09:29 PM
Let me take another stab at this. Keypurr, you see something, but you're also missing something.

Jesus, the flesh man, had a different father than normal men. That mean's he didn't have the same seed/spirit, as say, the Pharisees he rebuked telling them they were of their father the devil. The spirit is as a male because it plants the seed. Since all seeds bear fruit after their own kind, His kind was the Father.

True, his exact image


So He has this Seed, yet clearly it was not "activated" until He was 30. If it had been, He'd have been healing his playmates, and walking on water then. He didn't. So why didn't He?

As in Acts 10:38.


We are told elsewhere: ONE PLANTS, ANOTHER WATERS, but HaShem gives the increase. Who is the another that waters the Seed? Put another way, what happened to the Seed when the dove came down? The Seed was CAUGHT UP into His mother's womb, New Jerusalem, BORN FROM ABOVE, as the pattern Son, which the Father then witnessed to by saying, this is my beloved Son.

Born from above brings light to me friend.


The Son Seed is not one, but two in union; just as with 100% natural men, He bears characteristics of both father and mother. For this cause shall a man leave Father AND MOTHER, and cleave unto His wife. Once He was caught up to mother, He could then "leave" her to cleave unto His wife, ie. His true body that is JOINED TO HIM IN THE SAME WAY.

I never looked at it that way. Something to ponder over.


The "lovely" Greek obscured this by the translators choosing "born again" instead of born from ABOVE. A WORLD of difference, since our mother wisdom built New Jerusalem, the city made without hands that our Father Abraham looked for, is that place we are to be born from. Peace

Since I got the AENT (Aramaic English New Testament) I no longer trust the Greek translations. It is things like this that send your mind in a different direction.

Thank you my friend, I value your thoughts.

keypurr
October 11th, 2015, 09:38 PM
It was impossible for death to have dominion over him.




I know and you are wrong.

The son of God came in the flesh through Mary's womb.

The Father dwelled in his flesh son.





No.

Every spirit has a soul.






The brain is flesh, a part of the body that contains the spirit, the mind and the soul of God's offspring, man.




Spirits can have influence on a man's mind.

Every Spirit has it's own soul as well as a name.





Jesus was the spirit, soul and mind of the son of God.




What's my handle on here friend?

You have been given some wisdom, RBBI has enlighten me also. So much to consider.

1Mind1Spirit
October 11th, 2015, 09:45 PM
You have been given some wisdom, RBBI has enlighten me also. So much to consider.

Beautiful brother.

Love in Christ.

:Christine

1Mind1Spirit
October 11th, 2015, 10:00 PM
You have been given some wisdom, RBBI has enlighten me also. So much to consider.

RBBI helps me too.

Believe it or not but yer tenacity and basic beliefs about Jesus have helped me also. :)

patrick jane
October 11th, 2015, 10:13 PM
RBBI helps me too.

Believe it or not but yer tenacity and basic beliefs about Jesus have helped me also. :)

Yep, i spent a few months with keypurr way back when. He's a tough nut. He helped me too !

keypurr
October 11th, 2015, 10:19 PM
Let me take another stab at this. Keypurr, you see something, but you're also missing something.

Jesus, the flesh man, had a different father than normal men. That mean's he didn't have the same seed/spirit, as say, the Pharisees he rebuked telling them they were of their father the devil. The spirit is as a male because it plants the seed. Since all seeds bear fruit after their own kind, His kind was the Father.

So He has this Seed, yet clearly it was not "activated" until He was 30. If it had been, He'd have been healing his playmates, and walking on water then. He didn't. So why didn't He?

We are told elsewhere: ONE PLANTS, ANOTHER WATERS, but HaShem gives the increase. Who is the another that waters the Seed? Put another way, what happened to the Seed when the dove came down? The Seed was CAUGHT UP into His mother's womb, New Jerusalem, BORN FROM ABOVE, as the pattern Son, which the Father then witnessed to by saying, this is my beloved Son.

The Son Seed is not one, but two in union; just as with 100% natural men, He bears characteristics of both father and mother. For this cause shall a man leave Father AND MOTHER, and cleave unto His wife. Once He was caught up to mother, He could then "leave" her to cleave unto His wife, ie. His true body that is JOINED TO HIM IN THE SAME WAY.

The "lovely" Greek obscured this by the translators choosing "born again" instead of born from ABOVE. A WORLD of difference, since our mother wisdom built New Jerusalem, the city made without hands that our Father Abraham looked for, is that place we are to be born from. Peace

The Aramaic translation uses the words "born from the beginning" in John 3:3 and John 3:7.

What a difference is right. No wonder folks get caught up in confusion reading their Greek to English translations.

keypurr
October 11th, 2015, 10:43 PM
RBBI helps me too.

Believe it or not but yer tenacity and basic beliefs about Jesus have helped me also. :)

Thank you 1M1S, that makes me feel like my words were not wasted. But as RBBI says there is something missing in my thoughts. Something I am not seeing.

What does "born from the beginning" mean to you?

Would it be the same as "Born from above"?

I understand that the Hebrew and the Aramaic are close cousins.

RBBI's words seem to click somewhat, I think I understand some of what I have been overlooking.

What are the differences between RBBI's thoughts and mine in the end result? I saw the seed given to Jesus at his anointing, RBBI sees the seed being activated at his anointing. Since the father's seed was in the womb of Mary, RBBI's thoughts are more logical.

peace friend

keypurr
October 11th, 2015, 10:47 PM
Yep, i spent a few months with keypurr way back when. He's a tough nut. He helped me too !

Thank you too.

Keypurr is never to old to learn. Remember that no one knows it all.

We learn from each other, always keep your mind open.

RBBI
October 12th, 2015, 12:09 AM
The Aramaic translation uses the words "born from the beginning" in John 3:3 and John 3:7.

What a difference is right. No wonder folks get caught up in confusion reading their Greek to English translations.

Pro 3:19 The LORD by wisdom hath founded the earth; by understanding hath he established the heavens.

Pro 4:7 Wisdom is the principal thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding.

Pro 9:1 Wisdom hath builded her house, she hath hewn out her seven pillars:

Jer 10:12 He hath made the earth by his power, he hath established the world by his wisdom, and hath stretched out the heavens by his discretion.

Psa 136:5 To him that by wisdom made the heavens: for his mercy endureth for ever.

Wisdom was with HaShem in the beginning. She is His helpmeet. If you look up the word above for "principal thing", it means BEGINNING OR FIRSTFRUITS, and it comes from a root word roshe, where we get Rosh Hashanah, New Year or Head of the Year. To be born from the beginning is then to be born of wisdom, the principal thing.

When you look up "founded" above the meaning carried is one of reclining to have a counsel. The last Passover was one of reclining because that's the way they dine in the east, and He had a counsel establishing the covenant in His blood.

When you look up established, the meaning carried is one of to stand up, to set up, to be erect, to set up a throne, the sun at full noon when it's at it's highest (the daystar arising in our hearts).

Wisdom made the heavens; heavens is not what we would normally think of, but there are 3 heavens corresponding to the 3 compartments of the Tabernacle. The first is all that is created, the second is the firmament, which is Christ, the third, is where HaShem dwells. Peace

RBBI
October 12th, 2015, 12:20 AM
Thank you too.

Keypurr is never to old to learn. Remember that no one knows it all.

We learn from each other, always keep your mind open.

Amen. I learn something new nearly every day. I don't think it will ever end; the Word is endless in revelation. Peace

Greg Jennings
October 12th, 2015, 12:59 AM
We were given in the beginning a constitutional republic, a nation under law, not a pure democracy, which is the rule of 51+ percent.

In a pure democracy, if 51 per cent decide that everyone by the name of Greg are non-human and need to be terminated then majority rules.

In a nation ruled by law, based on principles of life, liberty and ownership of property, Greg's life has great value, no matter what a whimsical majority thinks.

You seemed to have missed the point a bit. I'm well aware that we live in a democratic republic, my friend. My point was that the will of the people will always influence what those in power who represent the people enact into law.

For example, gay marriage was opposed by the majority of the population just ten years ago. When the popular opinion changed to be in support of gay marriage fairly recently, the politicians who represent the people started passing laws allowing for it to be legal. Understand?

Greg Jennings
October 12th, 2015, 01:00 AM
I was born into a pantheistic family and through the process of
studying and practicing various belief systems, I came to the conclusion that Biblical Christianity is true and all others are false.

And I'm not saying that never happens. Obviously it does. But overwhelmingly peolle are what their parents were, and what they were raised as. Would you disagree?

Greg Jennings
October 12th, 2015, 01:02 AM
Are they wrong? really...?

I don't pretend to know that answer. Many here at TOL, however, do. I'm pointing out the flaws in such logic

Greg Jennings
October 12th, 2015, 01:07 AM
What about other countries? I believe that our country has the best government based on constitution, but I'll play along. Which ones do you mean?



That is just fantasy there Greg.

Firstly, this country is NOT a democracy; it is a democratic republic. It is that way specifically to avoid a direct majority rule. Look at the way votes are counted in the presidential election. That should tell you something.

It seems that you believe that the majority could pass a law denying the minority any rights and that would still be OK, since it's the majorities will.

I think that the old saying says it very well, "Democracy is two wolves and a sheep deciding on what to have for lunch". Addressed in my response to steko. Take a moment to read it, if you would.


This thread is about the deity of the Lord Jesus Christ and we who trust Him believe that He gets to make the rules that people live by since He created us.

I actually made this thread. I know what its intent is because I am its author. And I can tell you without a doubt that the boldened portion above is not what it's about. But I understand that fundamentalists enjoy telling others what things mean, so I can't say I'm surprised by your response here.

Greg Jennings
October 12th, 2015, 01:10 AM
It seems to me that you think that Greg's opinion should hold the most weight.
Or, as I've said repeatedly, I think that ALL opinions that lack substantial proof are equally valid. But twist my words as you will



So you believe in some of the things that Jesus said, but not others? If guess you just like the ones that you like.
Hmmm.....I didn't think this was that hard to understand, but I'm more than happy to lay it out for you clearly: I don't believe in Jesus's divinity, but his message about how to treat others is something that everyone can learn from. It's a social message, not just a religious one

steko
October 12th, 2015, 01:13 AM
And I'm not saying that never happens. Obviously it does. But overwhelmingly peolle are what their parents were, and what they were raised as. Would you disagree?

No, I don't disagree.
It's hard for most people to climb off of the conveyor and think for themselves.
Sometimes we need help from someone greater than we are to make a change, and most people can't get out of the seat they're in.

Greg Jennings
October 12th, 2015, 01:14 AM
As to your second question, what is your definition of "divine"?

Immortal. Basically "a god."

steko
October 12th, 2015, 01:17 AM
RBBI helps me too.

Believe it or not but yer tenacity and basic beliefs about Jesus have helped me also. :)

Keypurr helps me only in the fact that when I occasionally read his posts, it only reinforces my faith in the triune GOD and demonstrates the absurdity in believing otherwise.

Omniskeptical
October 12th, 2015, 03:50 AM
Keypurr helps me only in the fact that when I occasionally read his posts, it only reinforces my faith in the triune GOD and demonstrates the absurdity in believing otherwise.
The absurdity is God undying from the dead, and expecting everyone to approve his renegage of his no idols policy.

1Mind1Spirit
October 12th, 2015, 11:34 AM
Thank you 1M1S, that makes me feel like my words were not wasted. But as RBBI says there is something missing in my thoughts. Something I am not seeing.

What does "born from the beginning" mean to you?

Would it be the same as "Born from above"?


God has declared the end from the beginning.





I understand that the Hebrew and the Aramaic are close cousins.

I couldn't tell yuh.




RBBI's words seem to click somewhat, I think I understand some of what I have been overlooking.

Yep,God's plan to make sons.






What are the differences between RBBI's thoughts and mine in the end result? I saw the seed given to Jesus at his anointing, RBBI sees the seed being activated at his anointing. Since the father's seed was in the womb of Mary, RBBI's thoughts are more logical.

peace friend


The difference is in understanding the difference between God and his son.

Having an understanding of what Yeshua Messiah gave up and gained in his coming here.


These things were done so that we can experience becoming sons of God while we are here.


May the Holy Spirit agree with your spirit.



It all comes down to knowing them. :)

patrick jane
October 12th, 2015, 11:37 AM
God has declared the end from the beginning.






I couldn't tell yuh.





Yep,God's plan to make sons.








The difference is in understanding the difference between God and his son.

Having an understanding of what Yeshua Messiah gave up and gained in his coming here.


These things were done so that we can experience becoming sons of God while we are here.


May the Holy Spirit agree with your spirit.



It all comes down to knowing them. :)


Check out the Big Mind on 1Mind !!!!

keypurr
October 12th, 2015, 09:08 PM
God has declared the end from the beginning.






I couldn't tell yuh.





Yep,God's plan to make sons.








The difference is in understanding the difference between God and his son.

Having an understanding of what Yeshua Messiah gave up and gained in his coming here.


These things were done so that we can experience becoming sons of God while we are here.


May the Holy Spirit agree with your spirit.



It all comes down to knowing them. :)

As a son, I looked within and found the kingdom. I just realized that as a son I have no sin. The Seed in me is pure. How can I be otherwise? Thanks be to Christ for his guidance.

1Mind1Spirit
October 12th, 2015, 09:24 PM
As a son, I looked within and found the kingdom. I just realized that as a son I have no sin. The Seed in me is pure. How can I be otherwise? Thanks be to Christ for his guidance.



Psalm 23:2 KJV


2 He maketh me to lie down in green pastures: he leadeth me beside the still waters.

keypurr
October 12th, 2015, 10:34 PM
Pro 3:19 The LORD by wisdom hath founded the earth; by understanding hath he established the heavens.

Pro 4:7 Wisdom is the principal thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding.

Pro 9:1 Wisdom hath builded her house, she hath hewn out her seven pillars:

Jer 10:12 He hath made the earth by his power, he hath established the world by his wisdom, and hath stretched out the heavens by his discretion.

Psa 136:5 To him that by wisdom made the heavens: for his mercy endureth for ever.

Wisdom was with HaShem in the beginning. She is His helpmeet. If you look up the word above for "principal thing", it means BEGINNING OR FIRSTFRUITS, and it comes from a root word roshe, where we get Rosh Hashanah, New Year or Head of the Year. To be born from the beginning is then to be born of wisdom, the principal thing.

When you look up "founded" above the meaning carried is one of reclining to have a counsel. The last Passover was one of reclining because that's the way they dine in the east, and He had a counsel establishing the covenant in His blood.

When you look up established, the meaning carried is one of to stand up, to set up, to be erect, to set up a throne, the sun at full noon when it's at it's highest (the daystar arising in our hearts).

Wisdom made the heavens; heavens is not what we would normally think of, but there are 3 heavens corresponding to the 3 compartments of the Tabernacle. The first is all that is created, the second is the firmament, which is Christ, the third, is where HaShem dwells. Peace

My eyes are seeing more my friend.

RBBI
October 13th, 2015, 10:57 AM
My eyes are seeing more my friend.

And isn't it awesome? So much better than the false hope of flying away Babylon offers. To HaShem be the glory....

keypurr
October 13th, 2015, 12:08 PM
And isn't it awesome? So much better than the false hope of flying away Babylon offers. To HaShem be the glory....


Yes it is great.

Hope things are well with you today. Everyone needs to be as happy as I feel right now.

Ben Masada
October 14th, 2015, 02:56 PM
Neither. Jesus was a Jew begotten of Joseph with Mary. It is better to go that way than to say that he was born according to John 8:41.

RBBI
October 15th, 2015, 09:34 AM
Neither. Jesus was a Jew begotten of Joseph with Mary. It is better to go that way than to say that he was born according to John 8:41.

Yeshua did all sorts of documented miracles. Better to say the difference in Him was that he was born of the Father. Otherwise we should all be doing what the natural man did. Peace