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Interplanner
October 4th, 2015, 10:04 AM
Paul mentions several sightings of Christ resurrected. In this post I just want to dwell on the one large one, and on the timing, and especially on where Paul was in his enforcement of Judaism. It creates a triple-strength proof of what he intended to mention.

He was still in training to enforce some of Judaism's restrictions on apostates. Of course, it was considered apostate for a member to claim to be God, and a claim to be Messiah was such. So to have a group operating within Judaism was scandalous; and they were: they were actually meeting on the temple compound in their early days as such.

The sightings Paul is referring to in I Cor 15 are between the Resurrection and Pentecost. In both I Cor 15 and--more important--in the moment being recollected in I Cor 15, Paul is referring to when he was in training to enforce Judaism, and starting that career-move. He held cloaks at Stephen's martyrdom because stoning was reserved for elder members.

So let us understand the consequence each way: what is the impact on Paul at that time of such a huge sighting vs. a wobbly 2nd hand sighting passed on by an emotionally unstable person? (let's say a woman, not to be biased in the modern sense, but to reflect the bias of that generation's Judaism). Do zealots like Paul even bother with the wobbly accounts? No, they pursue the major accounts and censor them. Why would Paul bother with it, if it had nothing to it? Instead, we would expect him to ridicule it as a mass hysteria. But he could not. Nor could he do so with the others on the list.

This, instead, forced him to press even further; no time could be wasted to stop the movement which had such a weapon. He had to get around the region and shut the thing down. He knew he was not battling a delusion, but solid reality which could only be answered by force.

Nothing could be more clear about the resurrection than the fact that the zealous Paul had no answer to the Christians sightings other than police force and imprisonment.

patrick jane
October 4th, 2015, 10:33 AM
Blasphemy -

Interplanner
October 4th, 2015, 10:44 AM
???

[oops about misspelling sighting in title!]

6days
October 4th, 2015, 03:40 PM
I'm a bit thick..
. What are you saying?

Danoh
October 4th, 2015, 05:37 PM
I'm a bit thick..
. What are you saying?

Doesn’t matter - fact of the matter is that he is off, once more, as usual.

Contrary to Paul’s own words in several places elsewhere and their resulting light on the actual dynamic of Paul’s words in 1 Corinthians 15, Interplanner is once more basically talking about what he has misread into Paul’s words in 1 Corinthians 15.

Interplanner is mistaking what the Lord said to Paul about his own conscience against his actions, as asserting that Paul knew the resurrection was real and was fighting against it.

Fact is Paul did not believe the resurrection was real.

That’s just Interplanner’s misreading his misread of Acts 13 and Galatians 3 into things once more:

Acts 26:
8. Why should it be thought a thing incredible with you, that God should raise the dead?
9. I verily thought with myself, that I ought to do many things contrary to the name of Jesus of Nazareth.

His is the same old same old of those who take their own, first impression reading of a passage as being “what the passage says” together with all the “makes sense to me” illogic they then begin to build in from there…

By the time someone else comes along and points out otherwise, they are unable to see it, because it does not fit “what makes sense” to them...

Because it does not fit all that that they have long since built into what they believe they are looking at, from that one misfire.

Interplanner
October 4th, 2015, 08:14 PM
I'm a bit thick..
. What are you saying?



that it was ideal that Paul was the leading persecutor of the Christian church when he also heard and verified that 500 saw Christ at one resurrected sighting. There couldn't be a more convincing witness. He really wanted the movement to die, and instead ran into overwhelming proof. The only option: to silence those who believed.

It is not complicated.

Interplanner
October 4th, 2015, 08:16 PM
Doesn’t matter - fact of the matter is that he is off, once more, as usual.

Contrary to Paul’s own words in several places elsewhere and their resulting light on the actual dynamic of Paul’s words in 1 Corinthians 15, Interplanner is once more basically talking about what he has misread into Paul’s words in 1 Corinthians 15.

Interplanner is mistaking what the Lord said to Paul about his own conscience against his actions, as asserting that Paul knew the resurrection was real and was fighting against it.

Fact is Paul did not believe the resurrection was real.

That’s just Interplanner’s misreading his misread of Acts 13 and Galatians 3 into things once more:

Acts 26:
8. Why should it be thought a thing incredible with you, that God should raise the dead?
9. I verily thought with myself, that I ought to do many things contrary to the name of Jesus of Nazareth.

His is the same old same old of those who take their own, first impression reading of a passage as being “what the passage says” together with all the “makes sense to me” illogic they then begin to build in from there…

By the time someone else comes along and points out otherwise, they are unable to see it, because it does not fit “what makes sense” to them...

Because it does not fit all that that they have long since built into what they believe they are looking at, from that one misfire.



Sorry Danoh, your comments are worthless. If you really wanted to communicate, you might say: here is why I think the 500 at one sighting matters. As it is, you practice remote mind-reading, writing as though you know more about what I'm thinking than I do.

Interplanner
October 4th, 2015, 08:17 PM
Yes, Paul believed the resurrection was real, that it fulfilled all of Israel's destiny, and in ch 26 he scolded the leaders for not realizing how much happened in the resurrection.

6days
October 5th, 2015, 05:31 PM
that it was ideal that Paul was the leading persecutor of the Christian church when he also heard and verified that 500 saw Christ at one resurrected sighting. There couldn't be a more convincing witness. He really wanted the movement to die, and instead ran into overwhelming proof. The only option: to silence those who believed.

It is not complicated.
Paul wanted the movement ( Christ followers) to die?
You must mean Saul?

Right Divider
October 5th, 2015, 05:52 PM
Paul wanted the movement ( Christ followers) to die?
You must mean Saul?
He had two names (one Hebrew and one Greek).
Act 13:9 KJV Then Saul, (who also is called Paul,) filled with the Holy Ghost, set his eyes on him,

musterion
October 5th, 2015, 06:15 PM
IP knows neither what he says nor whereof he affirms.

musterion
October 5th, 2015, 06:23 PM
He knew he was not battling a delusion, but solid reality which could only be answered by force. Oh really?


Nothing could be more clear about the resurrection than the fact that the zealous Paul had no answer to the Christians sightings other than police force and imprisonment.First, it wasn't Paul who did any of that -- it was Saul.

Second, Saul had done all that he did in ignorance and unbelief -- not deliberately against what he had known was the Truth:


Who was before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious: but I obtained mercy, because I did it ignorantly in unbelief.That blows what seems to be your whole cloudy hypothesis -- that he knew exactly Who he was opposing -- clean out of the water. If JohnW were here, he'd tell you to have a seat.

WizardofOz
October 5th, 2015, 06:23 PM
IP knows

http://www.thehindu.com/multimedia/dynamic/01568/tumblr_mqqdmniBMd1_1568974e.jpg

Yes. Yes he does

Interplanner
October 5th, 2015, 08:07 PM
Oh really?

First, it wasn't Paul who did any of that -- it was Saul.

Second, Saul had done all that he did in ignorance and unbelief -- not deliberately against what he had known was the Truth:

That blows what seems to be your whole cloudy hypothesis -- that he knew exactly Who he was opposing -- clean out of the water. If JohnW were here, he'd tell you to have a seat.



A name change does not change that it was him.

That self-descriptive verse is exactly what I'm talking about, not in conflict with it. It does take some meeting the truth for a person to realize they are ignorant, you know. The ignorance was his police enforcement of Judaism, to "protect" it, because it was stuck. There are rational steps taken along the way to faith.

I don't know if he knew Who he was opposing just yet, but my point is that God chose the person who was most motivated to stop the Christian faith to learn of a massive sighting which could not be denied. That makes the power of the sighting unshakeable, and therefore the resurrection is.

If we claim something happened in history, and it lacks its true "echo" against the "walls" of other people and groups in the picture when it happened, then it is fake.

Interplanner
October 5th, 2015, 08:12 PM
Don't make up your mind to oppose every thing you read here at the forums. You may miss some powerful, positive stuff.

musterion
October 6th, 2015, 04:17 AM
I don't know if he knew Who he was opposing just yet

Don't backpedal. You already said he knew it was all true.


Don't make up your mind to oppose every thing you read here at the forums.

I don't. Only the stuff that's of Satan.

Interplanner
October 6th, 2015, 06:51 AM
Don't backpedal. You already said he knew it was all true.



I don't. Only the stuff that's of Satan.




He could realize that the sighting by 500 was not going to be contradicted but not know what the Gospel of justification was. He says that in 2 Cor 5. We once knew Christ in an ordinary sense, but now we know that God was in Christ.

Loosen up, you're way off on your supposed "skill" at identifying Satan.

I'm the one trying to show that the NT is extremely solid in validating the claim of the resurrection: it's greatest opponent--the person given permission by the temple to quash the whole movement--could never overturn the sightings. That's far more valuable than Peter or James or John saying so.