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dialm
October 1st, 2015, 11:31 PM
If the rebellion had not ended in suicide?

aikido7
October 2nd, 2015, 12:23 AM
If the rebellion had not ended in suicide?Killed them. They had finished building a "siege ramp" and had used it to enter the fortress. Unfortunately they had to immediately put a stop to their own violent actions as nearly everyone was already dead.

dialm
October 2nd, 2015, 02:26 AM
Killed them. They had finished building a "siege ramp" and had used it to enter the fortress. Unfortunately they had to immediately put a stop to their own violent actions as nearly everyone was already dead.

Usually the Romans were very predictable. That is generally the way law abiding nations are. The Romans kind of represent the world. And the world is highly law motivated.

In this senario what the Romans would have done was what they always did. Execute the leadership first then sell the followers into slavery. This would be the legal method.

The unpredictability of the Romans was the way they conquered. The people locked up in Masada were taken completely by surprise. They had no idea of the power and dogged fortitude of the Romans.

The Masadites thought they had a lot of time. This was not true. It took very little time for the ramp to be completed. Then it was easy. Rome walked right in because there was absolutely no defense.

aikido7
October 2nd, 2015, 02:34 AM
Usually the Romans were very predictable. That is generally the way law abiding nations are. The Romans kind of represent the world. And the world is highly law motivated.

In this senario what the Romans would have done was what they always did. Execute the leadership first then sell the followers into slavery. This would be the legal method.

The unpredictability of the Romans was the way they conquered. The people locked up in Masada were taken completely by surprise. They had no idea of the power and dogged fortitude of the Romans.

The Masadites thought they had a lot of time. This was not true. It took very little time for the ramp to be completed. Then it was easy. Rome walked right in because there was absolutely no defense.I think most Jews knew which side their own bread was buttered on, and it wasn't on the side of the Empire. It was no accident Jesus used the phrase "Kingdom of God." He pointed to what life would be like if God sat on the royal throne instead of Augustus.

Their defense was taking their own lives. Jews threatened to do this a couple of other times when Pilate was disrespecting their God with his royal images.
In both cases, the Jews made it clear they would cut their own throats first. Amazingly, Pilate realized the scope of the protest and backed down. Unfortunately, he did not do this with Jesus.

dialm
October 2nd, 2015, 09:23 AM
The only thing the Romans were going to do was execute a couple leaders then sell the followers into slavery. That was a normal process. Suicide was a ridiculous response. After all, Isreal began as a slave nation. They were used to it. And the hand full of leaders were going to die anyway.

Unless the Masadites were more Roman then we are led to believe. Rome prescribed suicide in the face of defeat. By committing suicide the Masadites were saying how Roman they were.

aikido7
October 2nd, 2015, 11:22 AM
The only thing the Romans were going to do was execute a couple leaders then sell the followers into slavery. That was a normal process. Suicide was a ridiculous response. After all, Isreal began as a slave nation. They were used to it. And the hand full of leaders were going to die anyway.

Unless the Masadites were more Roman then we are led to believe. Rome prescribed suicide in the face of defeat. By committing suicide the Masadites were saying how Roman they were.Is this information from the historian Josephus?

If not, I would sure appreciate any historical source you could direct me to.

I always need my beliefs a good "shaking up" at times.

Thanks in advance!

dialm
October 3rd, 2015, 03:06 AM
The Masada account is recorded history. What they did was too first rebel against Rome then they rebelled against Jerusalem They had their reasons for rebelling.

The Roman theory of governing is also recorded history. To conquer they used the carrot and stick approach. First they offered friendship. If rejected they would force the friendship. Very few nations got the privilege of rejecting Roman friendship. Germany and Scotland were two. Israel was a good friend to Rome for many years. Actually Masada was built to Roman specifications just like King Herod's Temple. Why the Romans were so impressed by the Temple that they just simply had to have it. You can visit King Herrod's Temple in Rome today. Everyone there knows where the Collisium is located. All you have to do is ask.

aikido7
October 3rd, 2015, 03:21 AM
The Masada account is recorded history. What they did was too first rebel against Rome then they rebelled against Jerusalem They had their reasons for rebelling.

The Roman theory of governing is also recorded history. To conquer they used the carrot and stick approach. First they offered friendship. If rejected they would force the friendship. Very few nations got the privilege of rejecting Roman friendship. Germany and Scotland were two. Israel was a good friend to Rome for many years. Actually Masada was built to Roman specifications just like King Herod's Temple. Why the Romans were so impressed by the Temple that they just simply had to have it. You can visit King Herrod's Temple in Rome today. Everyone there knows where the Collisium is located. All you have to do is ask.
Where, specifically, is this "recorded history"? I was under the impression that Josephus's account is our primary source, and your "carrot and stick" theory is just not there.

I would like more specifics from primary sources (which other sources are they?).

dialm
October 3rd, 2015, 04:39 AM
Well Josephus was a Roman employee/slave historian. The very kind of a person that the Masadites were trying to rid the Holy Land of. In the eyes of the people on Masada Josephus was a traitor. It would be doing a disservice to the memory of those who committed suicide if we also employed Josephus.

Have you ever heard of the unwritten word? The one used by the rabbis and old sages? They have a body of knowledge. Martin Luther even used their knowledge to a certain extent. We don't need Josephus. He didn't write anything new and nothing we can't get from more reliable sources.

Here look-

Ancient Isreal was given the task of leading the world in worship. But they couldn't get the job done. So God had the entire Temple moved to Rome where the entire world could worship in the blood sacrifices carried on in the Collisium. Why they even sacrificed those impudent Christians there in Herod's Temple.

bybee
October 3rd, 2015, 05:56 AM
Usually the Romans were very predictable. That is generally the way law abiding nations are. The Romans kind of represent the world. And the world is highly law motivated.

In this senario what the Romans would have done was what they always did. Execute the leadership first then sell the followers into slavery. This would be the legal method.

The unpredictability of the Romans was the way they conquered. The people locked up in Masada were taken completely by surprise. They had no idea of the power and dogged fortitude of the Romans.

The Masadites thought they had a lot of time. This was not true. It took very little time for the ramp to be completed. Then it was easy. Rome walked right in because there was absolutely no defense.

What defense is there against overriding greed, violence and oppression? If the populace is kept without any way to defend itself it will surely be enslaved and/or slaughtered.

bybee
October 3rd, 2015, 05:58 AM
Well Josephus was a Roman employee/slave historian. The very kind of a person that the Masadites were trying to rid the Holy Land of. In the eyes of the people on Masada Josephus was a traitor. It would be doing a disservice to the memory of those who committed suicide if we also employed Josephus.

Have you ever heard of the unwritten word? The one used by the rabbis and old sages? They have a body of knowledge. Martin Luther even used their knowledge to a certain extent. We don't need Josephus. He didn't write anything new and nothing we can't get from more reliable sources.

Here look-

Ancient Isreal was given the task of leading the world in worship. But they couldn't get the job done. So God had the entire Temple moved to Rome where the entire world could worship in the blood sacrifices carried on in the Collisium. Why they even sacrificed those impudent Christians there in Herod's Temple.

I do not toss Josephus out the window. I take him with a grain of salt.

dialm
October 3rd, 2015, 06:21 AM
What defense is there against overriding greed, violence and oppression? If the populace is kept without any way to defend itself it will surely be enslaved and/or slaughtered.

With all do respect bybee,

So what?

It costs money to build roads and such. Israel had to pay just like everyone else. It was not a nation of elites. The average height of the male Isrealite at the time was about 4 feet. They couldn't fight their way out of a paper sack. They were constantly crying out for someone to save them. Then, when Savior finally showed up they stabbed Him in the back.

Let's get real just before I get booted out.

Israel was a slave nation. There was no reason to commit suicide over that. Moses even said to choose life so that God would have people like He wanted.

The Masadites didn't have the spine to accept The Will Of GOD.

That is the meaning of suicide in a nut shell. We don't need Josephus to figure that out.

bybee
October 3rd, 2015, 06:47 AM
With all do respect bybee,

So what?

It costs money to build roads and such. Israel had to pay just like everyone else. It was not a nation of elites. The average height of the male Isrealite at the time was about 4 feet. They couldn't fight their way out of a paper sack. They were constantly crying out for someone to save them. Then, when Savior finally showed up they stabbed Him in the back.

Let's get real just before I get booted out.

Israel was a slave nation. There was no reason to commit suicide over that. Moses even said to choose life so that God would have people like He wanted.

The Masadites didn't have the spine to accept The Will Of GOD.

That is the meaning of suicide in a nut shell. We don't need Josephus to figure that out.

Perhaps if you were to see a shrink? Soon?

dialm
October 3rd, 2015, 07:01 AM
Saw the movie 'Shinking Lady' and have been around some shrinking violets.

Maybe it is true that the modern American Christians are the replacement Isrealites? They certainly whine like ancient Isreal.

bybee
October 3rd, 2015, 07:15 AM
Saw the movie 'Shinking Lady' and have been around some shrinking violets.

Maybe it is true that the modern American Christians are the replacement Isrealites? They certainly whine like ancient Isreal.

You seem to have a good deal to whine about?

dialm
October 3rd, 2015, 07:26 AM
Ok. Here let me really whine.

We got an anti-Christian here at this site whose handle makes a direct reference to Masada where a mass suicide took place.

I don't like that. They need to remove Bin Masada's name. And I spelled Bin the way it should really be spelled.

dialm
October 3rd, 2015, 07:36 AM
If they don't want to remove Bin Masada's name then they need to explain the value of mass suicide to us like you are trying to do bybee.

RBBI
October 3rd, 2015, 08:39 AM
Wow.....he's a Jew who needs His messiah. This site SHOULD be where he finds Him, as we may be the only Yeshua He ever sees.

I don't agree with it, but to them, Masada was an act of heroism, preferring death at their own hands as opposed to that of the Roman's hands.

But then in the same time period, in the same culture, who knows what any of us would do faced with the same circumstances? If I thought my wife was going to be raped and my children sold as slaves, I might see it as an act of mercy, in the moment. Peace

bybee
October 3rd, 2015, 09:11 AM
If they don't want to remove Bin Masada's name then they need to explain the value of mass suicide to us like you are trying to do bybee.

Watch yourself! I have said no such thing!

dialm
October 3rd, 2015, 09:52 AM
What defense is there against overriding greed, violence and oppression? If the populace is kept without any way to defend itself it will surely be enslaved and/or slaughtered.

What is the answer that Masada gave?

Oh yeah, mass suicide.

Or didn't you know that?

dialm
October 3rd, 2015, 09:56 AM
Let's suppose that Masada is correct. Then we have

If you don't like the current president then all republicans should?

If you don't like school you should?

This is totally stupid. Just like the people on top of Masada. Just like anyone who does such a thing no matter what the reason. Just like those who take up for the people of Masada.

dialm
October 3rd, 2015, 11:11 AM
We can't leave this at stupid. We need to know why.

Suicide was an acceptable option in the pagan world. Therefore suicide can be a sign just like other forms of violence.

You want to know how pagan society is? How acceptable is the practice of suicide?

The Romans thought the practice was honorable. They were deceived. There is no honor in suicide. None whatsoever.

Those people on Masada were despicable. Thier plan went wrong and they ran out of options. They had no honor and they had no wisdom. They did not come from a pagan society. The Jewish people back then had a knowledge of God. It was not complete knowledge but it was enough to guide anyone away from Paganism.

What we have to do is figure out a way to stop violence. Honesty is a good starting place.

dialm
October 5th, 2015, 12:06 PM
Here is a nice study

Compare what the Romans would have done to Masada with what the Romans did do to the Christians.

Ah, I think the Masada people wouldn't fair do well. Probably they are burning for what they did. And all is well.

ok doser
October 5th, 2015, 12:22 PM
The average height of the male Isrealite at the time was about 4 feet.

:freak:

http://images.sodahead.com/profiles/0/0/1/2/0/7/6/5/7/ttyvr57-41145267373.jpeg

Omniskeptical
October 5th, 2015, 12:32 PM
Masada is not in Judea, and the other Israelites were slaughtered during the second coming of the prophet christ.

aikido7
October 5th, 2015, 12:37 PM
The only thing the Romans were going to do was execute a couple leaders then sell the followers into slavery. That was a normal process. Suicide was a ridiculous response. After all, Isreal began as a slave nation. They were used to it. And the hand full of leaders were going to die anyway.

Unless the Masadites were more Roman then we are led to believe. Rome prescribed suicide in the face of defeat. By committing suicide the Masadites were saying how Roman they were.A sizable group of Jewish men, women and children were prepared to take their own lives with knives in protest to Pontius Pilate following a substitution of Jewish symbols for the Roman Empire's symbol.

Pilate, amazingly, backed down. He was one prelate who didn't give up usually and was well-attested to being a brutal, violent leader.

Omniskeptical
October 5th, 2015, 12:41 PM
A sizable group of Jewish men, women and children were prepared to take their own lives with knives in protest to Pontius Pilate following a substitution of Jewish symbols for the Roman Empire's symbol.

Pilate, amazingly, backed down. He was one prelate who didn't give up usually and was well-attested to being a brutal, violent leader.
True, but I don't believe he drank Israelite rebel blood. Even in the gospels, he is accounted as a jerk at best.

aikido7
October 5th, 2015, 12:42 PM
The Masada account is recorded history. What they did was too first rebel against Rome then they rebelled against Jerusalem They had their reasons for rebelling.

The Roman theory of governing is also recorded history. To conquer they used the carrot and stick approach. First they offered friendship. If rejected they would force the friendship. Very few nations got the privilege of rejecting Roman friendship. Germany and Scotland were two. Israel was a good friend to Rome for many years. Actually Masada was built to Roman specifications just like King Herod's Temple. Why the Romans were so impressed by the Temple that they just simply had to have it. You can visit King Herrod's Temple in Rome today. Everyone there knows where the Collisium is located. All you have to do is ask.You are generally right. There were Jews who basically went along with Roman rule.

I found it very enlightening that sayings such as "divine," "born of a virgin," "Savior of the World," etc. were first applied to Caesar. These titles were carved into the buildings and temples and stamped on the coins.

It was a revolutionary act--high treason--to apply these titles to Jesus as well.

Jesus's notion of the Kingdom of God was to introduce the idea of how the world would be with God on the throne instead of Caesar.

aikido7
October 5th, 2015, 12:43 PM
True, but I don't believe he drank Israelite rebel blood. Even in the gospels, he is accounted as a jerk at best.I think he WAS a jerk, given his brutality that is recorded in the Bible as well as extra-canonical historic research.

Omniskeptical
October 5th, 2015, 12:44 PM
Dumb stupid dumb stupid dumb

ok doser
October 5th, 2015, 12:51 PM
i wanna hear more about the hobbit sized israelites :chuckle:

aikido7
October 5th, 2015, 12:55 PM
Dumb stupid dumb stupid dumbTo me, historical context is essential in figuring out what the underlying causes are as far as politics, religion and culture are concerned.

Wick Stick
October 5th, 2015, 02:21 PM
Wow the crazy in this thread is thick. 4-foot tall Israelites? The Roman Coliseum as a Jewish temple?

Dial M for... madness?

Omniskeptical
October 5th, 2015, 09:36 PM
To me, historical context is essential in figuring out what the underlying causes are as far as politics, religion and culture are concerned.
I think you are wrong about savior of the world, and so called tales of the virgin birth of Caesar. Caesars was also considered rescuers or salvations. Soter being salvation; and soterios being actual savior. The Judah were going to get what was coming to them for short-changing Rome, and insulting their god, YHWH.

Omniskeptical
October 5th, 2015, 09:43 PM
With all do respect bybee,

So what?

It costs money to build roads and such. Israel had to pay just like everyone else. It was not a nation of elites. The average height of the male Isrealite at the time was about 4 feet. They couldn't fight their way out of a paper sack. They were constantly crying out for someone to save them. Then, when Savior finally showed up they stabbed Him in the back.

Let's get real just before I get booted out.

Israel was a slave nation. There was no reason to commit suicide over that. Moses even said to choose life so that God would have people like He wanted.

The Masadites didn't have the spine to accept The Will Of GOD.

That is the meaning of suicide in a nut shell. We don't need Josephus to figure that out.No one is 4 feet tall when genetically normal. You major growth abnormalities and birth defects. I will grant you that they may easily have been 5 foot freckly white people, but 4 feet sounds weird and stupid.

dialm
October 6th, 2015, 12:06 AM
You don't like my foolishness and I don't like yours.

Christians do not commit suicude. Sorry about your luck.

aikido7
October 6th, 2015, 12:33 AM
I think you are wrong about savior of the world, and so called tales of the virgin birth of Caesar. Caesars was also considered rescuers or salvations. Soter being salvation; and soterios being actual savior. The Judah were going to get what was coming to them for short-changing Rome, and insulting their god, YHWH.There is an identifiable anti-imperial strain throughout the Gospels, beginning with Paul in the 50s.

Because of Jesus, the powers and principalities of this world--the Domination System--does not have the last word.

The early Christians knew exactly what they were doing when the appropriated the Empire's language for Jesus.

The early Christian theologian, Justin Martyr, would carry on written arguments with certain pagan philosophers in Rome. Both sides accepted virgin births as part of first-century reality. But the Romans claimed that a peasant nobody like Jesus was not of royal birth and so his claim to a virgin birth made no sense to the pagan argument.

The virgin birth speaks to the importance of Caesar and Jesus. It does not speak to the biology of their earthly mothers.

dialm
October 6th, 2015, 12:34 AM
The World in America has finally gathered enough courage to make frontal assaults in public on Christians. We shouldn't be surprised. And what is happening is not because of something we did or did not do. Our response as Christians is the deciding factor.

The world like the Roman Empire is inferior to the Kingdom of Christ. The world cannot remain and even now is in its death throws.

dialm
October 6th, 2015, 12:53 AM
The people on Masada were Jews.
Jews commit suicide.

Christians do not commit suicide.

aikido7
October 6th, 2015, 12:55 AM
The people on Masada were Jews.
Jews commit suicide.

Christians do not commit suicide.That is a blanket statement.
It is not true. Two people in my church killed themselves. A Christian struggling with problems or depression and kills themselves is still a Christian.

dialm
October 6th, 2015, 09:37 AM
The Blood of Christ is like a blanket.

You tell us nothing but I have concrete examples of suicide. There is no problem delving into the deep abyss of suicide. Do you want to get your feet wet?

Wick Stick
October 7th, 2015, 11:39 AM
The people on Masada were Jews.
Jews commit suicide.

Christians do not commit suicide.
Skip to 5:10 for proof...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tRJlo2WRDbw

LoneStar
October 7th, 2015, 01:24 PM
The people on Masada were Jews.
Jews commit suicide.

Christians do not commit suicide.Any other kinds of death you think Christians can't do?