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northwye
October 1st, 2015, 06:48 PM
The Ezekiel 38 Prophecy, Ezekiel 38: 17-18 and I Peter 1: 10-12

The dominant theology in the churches interprets Ezekiel 38 in a literal way, to be a shooting war, in which Russia leads a group of nations against the nation of Israel in the Middle East.

But look carefully at Ezekiel 38: 17-18: "Thus saith the Lord GOD; Art thou he of whom I have spoken in old time by my servants the prophets of Israel, which prophesied in those days many years that I would bring thee against them?
18. And it shall come to pass at the same time when Gog shall come against the land of Israel, saith the Lord GOD, that my fury shall come up in my face."

In Ezekiel 38: 17 it says God is to bring thee, referring back to Gog in verse 16, against "them." "Them" would be the prophets of Israel, and Gods people.

Under the New Covenant, Israel would not be God's people as a physical nation in the Middle East claiming to still be the chosen people under the Old Covenant. It would be the born again Christians who Gog is coming against. And these born again Christians are not concentrated in any one country, but are all over the world.

Remember "He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second." Hebrews 10: 9, and "The glory of this latter house shall be greater than of the former..." Haggai 2: 9

I Peter 1: 10-12 states that "Of which salvation the prophets have inquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:
11. Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.
12. Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into."

Peter is talking about the same prophets of Israel that Ezekiel talks about (Ezekiel 38: 17-18).

And Peter is saying that those prophets of Israel were speaking to "us." The key question is who is "us?" Since the prophets of Israel were speaking to "us," who are born again Christians, as was Peter, about the coming of Christ, then were not these Old Testament prophets, including Ezekiel in Chapter 38, also speaking to "us" about the bringing of Gog against them, that is, against Gods people in the New Covenant time?

"Us"is not the physical nation of Israel, who follow the multitude of Old Covenant Israel that rejected Christ (Romans 11: 15-20). Rather "us" is the remnant in Romans 11: 1-5, plus those predicted to join with them in Hosea 2: 23.

But I Peter 1: 11-12 is subtle and those trained to see everything in scripture as being literal and have a letter mindset (II Corinthians 3: 6, the letter killeth) may not understand what Peter is saying. Since the prophets of Israel are said in the New Testament to speak to "us," then Ezekiel 38 is also speaking to us and "us" is not the nation of Israel over in the Middle East.

northwye
October 8th, 2015, 08:46 AM
A friend responded to this post saying that Gog is the northern locust army in Joel 1: 3-4 and Joel 2: 20 which surrounds the elect, the saints, the sons of God (Romans 8: 21).

In Joel 1: 4,6-7, "That which the palmerworm hath left hath the locust eaten; and that which the locust hath left hath the cankerworm eaten; and that which the cankerworm hath left hath the caterpiller eaten.............For a nation is come up upon my land, strong, and without number, whose teeth are the teeth of a lion, and he hath the cheek teeth of a great lion. 7. He hath laid my vine waste, and barked my fig tree: he hath made it clean bare, and cast it away; the branches thereof are made white."

Nation in Joel 1: 6, from goy, might be translated as people. It can mean a flight of locusts, a mass (of people), a foreign nation, Gentiles, heathen, or people.

The point is that it is not one nation that has come against the people of God, the elect, as prophesied in metaphoric language in Joel. It is a mass of false prophets who have come against God's people.

In Joel 2: 18-20 the prophecy continues, calling this mass of false prophets the northern army. "Then will the LORD be jealous for his land, and pity his people. 19. Yea, the LORD will answer and say unto his people, Behold, I will send you corn, and wine, and oil, and ye shall be satisfied therewith: and I will no more make you a reproach among the heathen: 20. But I will remove far off from you the northern army, and will drive him into a land barren and desolate, with his face toward the east sea, and his hinder part toward the utmost sea, and his stink shall come up, and his ill savour shall come up, because he hath done great things."

The friend continues in pointing also to Revelation 20: 8-9 as saying much the same thing: "And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
9. And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them."

The false prophets infiltrate and eventually take over the collective, the Capital C Churches. This leads to a separation of the wheat from the tares, as God sorts out his flock. Then God removes the northern army and in the metaphor drives it into a desolate land where that army's stink will come up.

God will restore the years the locusts have devoured as seen in Joel 2: 25 "And I will restore to you the years that the locust hath eaten, the cankerworm, and the caterpiller, and the palmerworm, my great army which I sent among you."

According to the friend God restores the years the locusts have destroyed after he has seen who has the love of the truth that they are not caught in the snare, the strong delusion. Luke 21: 35, II Thessalonians 2: 11

It is the false prophets that infiltrate the house of God. This leads to judgement, and separation, as God sorts out his flock as his own. When his people have overcome the false doctrines, according to my friend, God removes the army. Joe 2:20 "But I will remove far off from you the northern army, and will drive him into a land barren and desolate, with his face toward the east sea, and his hinder part toward the utmost sea, and his stink shall come up, and his ill savour shall come up, because he hath done great things."

chair
October 8th, 2015, 09:25 AM
Quite a silly idea. The text talks of a physical war.

4 I will turn you around and put hooks into your jaws, and I will lead you out with all your army, horses and horsemen, all of them clothed in full armor, a great company, all of them with shield and buckler, wielding swords.

It's a physical war, and the real, physical Israel is involved- not Christians who think that they replaced Israel.

Quite sorry

steko
October 8th, 2015, 09:33 AM
Quite a silly idea. The text talks of a physical war.

4 I will turn you around and put hooks into your jaws, and I will lead you out with all your army, horses and horsemen, all of them clothed in full armor, a great company, all of them with shield and buckler, wielding swords.

It's a physical war, and the real, physical Israel is involved- not Christians who think that they replaced Israel.

Quite sorry

I'm a Christian and I agree with you....on this.

Tambora
October 8th, 2015, 09:47 AM
Quite a silly idea. The text talks of a physical war.

4 I will turn you around and put hooks into your jaws, and I will lead you out with all your army, horses and horsemen, all of them clothed in full armor, a great company, all of them with shield and buckler, wielding swords.

It's a physical war, and the real, physical Israel is involved- not Christians who think that they replaced Israel.

Quite sorry

I'm a Christian and I agree with you....on this.
Me too!
:thumb:

RBBI
October 8th, 2015, 09:55 AM
I believe it's a battle between the kingdom of darkness and the kingdom of light; a spiritual battle that becomes physical because the darkness is creating bodies to dwell in, ie. the abomination of mingled SEED. They are the sound of the locusts in the TREES we are warned about, and they are the Nephalim, who Jude mentions as being in chains of darkness UNTIL the end times. Well, we're in the end times.

Time to get in the Ark who is now Christ, because the sifting is about to begin. This is where some who are lukewarm will be spewed out of His mouth, right back into the outer court (outer darkness) where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth when they see what they could have had (a change of garments). Peace

Tambora
October 8th, 2015, 11:57 AM
because the darkness is creating bodies to dwell in, Are you saying that angels are now mating with women again, producing offspring?

Livelystone
October 8th, 2015, 02:32 PM
]

It's a physical war, and the real, physical Israel is involved- not Christians who think that they replaced Israel.

Christians did not replace OT Israel, God did :up:

Jer 3:8 And I saw, when for all the causes whereby backsliding Israel committed adultery I had put her away, and given her a bill of divorce; yet her treacherous sister Judah feared not, but went and played the harlot also.

In case you don't bother to consider the Laws of God, it is against the law of God for one to take back a woman whom they have already divorced,

Do you think God is going to violate His own laws for a nation he forgive time after time until finally time ran out for them and God put them away ?

northwye
October 8th, 2015, 02:37 PM
http://anothervoicerev184.blogspot.c...-of-jesus.html

"Return of Jesus Christ, The Rapture of the Church and the Second Coming of the Lord Jesus Christ, By Lewis Sperry Chafer 1871-1952."

Chafer says "The nation Israel, God's chosen earthly people, to whom at least five-sixths of the Bible is addressed and with whom the great covenants are made (Rom 9:4-5) -- which covenants secure to that nation a land, a nation, a throne, a King, and a kingdom -- are now scattered throughout all the nations of the earth (Deut 4:26-28; Deut 28:63-68; Jer 16:13), and are to remain scattered until they (a remnant; ed.) are gathered into their own land (Deut 30:3-6; Isa 11:11-12; Isa 14:1-3; Isa 60:1-22; Jer 23:6-8; Jer 32:37-44; Jer 33:7-9; Eze 37:21-25; Mic 4:6-8) under the reign of Christ Jesus at His return."

Lewis S. Chafer refers to physical Israel as God's earthy chosen people. And early dispensationalists talk about the church as being only a "parenthesis" within dispensations.

John Darby said that the "Church has sought to settle itself here, but it has no place on the
earth... [Though] making a most constructive parenthesis, it forms no part of the regular order of God's earthly plans, but is merely an interruption of them to give a fuller character and meaning to them..."

John. N. Darby, 'The Character of Office in The Present Dispensation'
Collected Writings., Eccl. I, Vol. I, p. 94.

"Them" are all physical Israel, or Old Covenant Israel. The church, for Darby exists to "give fuller character and meaning to all physical Israel." Darby thought that the purpose of the Christian church, the ekklesia as a meeting, assembly or congregation of Israel reborn in Christ, made into The Body of Christ like the Catholic capital C Church, was to honor all physical Israel.

"Israel is an eternal nation, heir to an eternal land, with an eternal kingdom, on which David rules from an eternal throne so that in eternity, '...never the twain, Israel and church, shall meet." Lewis S. Chafer, Systematic Theology (Dallas, Dallas Seminary Press, 1975), Vol. 4. pp. 315-323..

One of the presuppositions of dispensationalism is that Israel in the Bible is always Old Covenant Israel, and cannot refer to any other.

Charles C. Ryrie (born 1925) says of classical dispensationalism that the: "basic primise of Dispensationalism
is two purposes of God expressed
in the formation of two peoples who maintain their distinction
throughout eternity." Charles C. Ryrie, Dispensationalism Today, 1966,
pp.44-45.

J. Dwight Pentecost is another dispensationalist theologian who in his
book Things To Come ( 1965) says "The church and Israel are two
distinct groups with whom God has a divine plan. The church is a
mystery, unrevealed in the Old Testament. This mystery program must be completed before God can resume His program with Israel and bring it to completion. These considerations all arise from
a literal method of interpretation." (page 193, J. Dwight Pentecost,
Things To Come, Zondervan, 1965)....

Dispensationalism starts from the assumption that God now has two peoples, Old Covenant Israel and the Church.

Ezekiel 38-39 is a prophecy describing a war in terms of the conditions and weapons that existed during Old Covenant Israel.

Most likely if this were a prophecy about a literal war, it would have been fulfilled at a time between the return from Babylonian captivity and the time of Christ. But there is no history of a time when God turned back an invasion of the land occupied by Old Covenant Israel in that time period.

One problem with making the Ezekiel 38-39 prophecy into a literal invasion of the nation called Israel by Russia and allies in our time is that such a fulfillment makes the nation of Israel the people of God at this time.

Of course, this is exactly what dispensationists are delighted to do - make the nation of Israel into God's people - because the theology begins from a presupposition or assumption that Old Covenant Israel, its multitude, is now one of God's two peoples.

Even if the vast majority of people in the nation called Israel followed a religion identical to that of Old Covenant Israel at some point in its history, that nation would still not be God's people at this point during the New Covenant. Scripture (Romans 11: 5, Romans 11: 17-20) says a remnant of Old Covenant Israel became the elect, with the implication being the New Covenant began with them (Acts 2). And all those who rejected Christ were broken off.

Only a remnant of Old Covenant Israel accepted Christ and became the beginnings of the New Covenant and those of Old Covenant Israel who rejected Christ were broken off. In saying something different on this point and in disagreeing with other scriptures, dispensationalism shows itself to be another Gospel which has another Jesus (II Corinthians 11: 4, Galatians 1: 6-9).

Livelystone
October 8th, 2015, 03:24 PM
And all those who rejected Christ were broken off.

Only a remnant of Old Covenant Israel accepted Christ and became the beginnings of the New Covenant and those of Old Covenant Israel who rejected Christ were broken off. In saying something different on this point and in disagreeing with other scriptures, dispensationalism shows itself to be another Gospel which has another Jesus (II Corinthians 11: 4, Galatians 1: 6-9).

:thumb:

chair
October 9th, 2015, 08:27 AM
Christians did not replace OT Israel, God did ...

Read the rest of the Bible, instead of cherry picking verses.
You have a severe case of circumcision envy.

Livelystone
October 9th, 2015, 09:43 AM
Read the rest of the Bible, instead of cherry picking verses.
You have a severe case of circumcision envy.

LOL, for better or for worse even if my God fearing Christian parents had not thought it better for me to be circumcised on the 8th day, the Jewish woman I mistakenly considered suitable for marriage would have seen to it :chuckle:

For sure she was more into castration than circumcision having a higher testosterone count than most men do. However, in my case the testosterone and morality in abundance was way to much for her to handle

Still, I understand your confusion and have compassion for you.

Consequently, I think it is time for a thread to liberate both Christians and Jews who think biblical Israel and modern day Israel are one in the same.

However, and because lawfully speaking I should have listed additional witnesses in my post to you to back up my statement about modern day Israel, here is a good read for you on how to use God's law for as you have said "cherry picking verses. Something you can study up on why I get caught up with some secular necessities before starting another thread.

http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=76526

Blessings to you,

Doug

northwye
October 9th, 2015, 11:51 AM
I am a little surprised that the disensationalists have not yet brought up Romans 11; 25-26 on this thread.

In Romans 11 Israel is cut off, and hardened but Israel is also grafted in, and saved. How is this possible? One major key to understanding this is in Romans 11: 1-5, where Paul is talking about a remnant of Old Covenant Israel that becomes the elect. By implication, since the remnant is a small number, then those who are cut off and hardened are the mass, the multitude or great majority.

See: http://biblehub.com/commentaries/calvin/romans/11.htm

Romans 11: 26. "And so all Israel, etc. Many understand this of the Jewish people, as though Paul had said, that religion would again be restored among them as before: but I extend the word Israel to all the people of God, according to this meaning, -- "When the Gentiles shall come in, the Jews also shall return from their defection to the obedience of faith; and thus shall be completed the salvation of the whole Israel of God, which must be gathered from both; and yet in such a way that the Jews shall obtain the first place, being as it were the first-born in God's family." This interpretation seems to me the most suitable, because Paul intended here to set forth the completion of the kingdom of Christ, which is by no means to be confined to the Jews, but is to include the whole world. The same manner of speaking we find in Galatians 6:16. The Israel of God is what he calls the Church, gathered alike from Jews and Gentiles; and he sets the people, thus collected from their dispersion, in opposition to the carnal children of Abraham, who had departed from his faith." John Calvin on Romans 11: 25-26

Calvinism is a complex topic and the interpretation that Israel in Romans 11: 26 is not Old Covenant Israel, but is all the elect of God does not belong only to Calvinism.

According to http://www.wlsessays.net/files/MuetzelRomans.pdf

"When Martin Luther lectured on Romans in 1517, he indicated that the Jewish
people would “return in their own time.” Later writings of Luther reveal a total rejection of the “general conversion” view."

How long will this hardening on the part of some in Old Covenant Israel go on? “Until the full number of the Gentiles has come in.” Jesus talked about this πλήρωμα (fullness) of the Gentiles. He said, “And the Gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come." Matthew 24: 14.

Note that in Romans 11: 25 ethnon, or ethnos, is translated as Gentiles, but in Matthew 24: 14 ethnesin. or ethnos, is translated as nations. Ethnos might also be translated as people or peoples.

Dispensationalism uses a peculiar way of interpreting scripture which is different from what Isaiah 28: 13 says. "...the word of God was unto them precept upon precept...line upon line, here a little, there a little, and there a little..."

Who Israel is in Romans 11: 26 must be interpreted by other scripture and not only by a man made theology. Romans 9: 6 says "For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel. " Romans 9: 8 goes on to say "That is, they which are the children of the flesh,these are not the children of God."

Romans 9: 6 is very brief and too concise for some to understand. Romans 9: 8 helps some in understanding Romans 9: 6 Paul is saying that there is an Israel of the flesh and an Israel, different from the Israel of the flesh, and that the Israel of the flesh are not the children of God. For not all who are physical Israel are the Israel (spiritual) of God (Galatians 6: 16)

In I Corinthians 10: 18 Paul says "Behold Israel after the flesh..." This implies with certainty that there is another Israel, which is the children of God, and this other Israel comes into being in the New Covenant.

Galatians 4: 22-26 shows that there is a Jerusalem which now exists which is in bondage and another Jerusalem which is above, is free and is the mother of us all, meaning all who are born again in Christ Jesus by the Holy Spirit. Jerusalem is metaphoric for Israel.

Another scripture relevant to the issue of who Israel is in Romans 11: 26 is Galatians 3: 3, 16, 26-29. These verses do not support the theology that the Old Covenant still exists somehow and that those of the physical bloodline from Abraham are the chosen people as dispensationalism says or implies.

To agree with these scriptures shown above and also to insist that Israel in Romans 11: 26 is only those of that bloodline, that is, is physical Israel, is to make Paul double minded and inconsistent. In addition, in Romans 11: 17-20 Paul says those of Old Covenant Israel who rejected Christ were broken off. And Galatians 3: 3, 16, 26-29 says the physical bloodline from Abraham is now a spiritual inheritance. And now there is "Neither Jew nor Greek," and "if ye be Christ's then ye are Abraham's seed" meaning you are also the seed of God, the spiritual seed. God no longer calls or selects by use of the physical bloodline, a truth not in agreement with dispensationalism.

Dispensationalism, however, appears not to overly state this doctrine in an explicit way, that their idea that Romans 11: 26 is a prophecy saying sometime in the future all Old Covenant Israel will be saved because they are of the physical bloodline.