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elohiym
September 30th, 2015, 01:55 PM
If the Christ is incapable of covetousness it follows he is incapable of sinning, hence impeccable. Therefore, the temptation He suffered was not a temptation to commit sinful acts; rather, the Christ was tempted in the same ways we are tempted when people demand we prove we are sons of God by the works they dream up for us to do. We see an example of this when the devil tempted the Christ, "If you are the son of God, turn stones into bread."

Ktoyou
September 30th, 2015, 02:02 PM
This leaves me wondering what point you are making?

Huckleberry
September 30th, 2015, 02:03 PM
Hebrews 2:18
18 For in that He Himself has suffered, being tempted, He is able to aid those who are tempted.

steko
September 30th, 2015, 02:06 PM
Heb 4:15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.

elohiym
September 30th, 2015, 02:07 PM
This leaves me wondering what point you are making?

Contrary to popular opinion, Christ was incapable of covetousness, not one who had to resist coveting. I would like to debate the claim and discuss the implications.

elohiym
September 30th, 2015, 02:09 PM
Heb 4:15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.

I explained in the OP how he was tempted like we are.

Certainly you are not saying the Lord was tempted to steal?

That would be ridiculous. God stealing. :chuckle:

elohiym
September 30th, 2015, 02:12 PM
Hebrews 2:18
18 For in that He Himself has suffered, being tempted, He is able to aid those who are tempted.

We can read in scripture an example of him being tempted. That supports my argument.

There are no examples of him being internally tempted, i.e. desiring to commit an immoral act.

Huckleberry
September 30th, 2015, 02:17 PM
We can read in scripture an example of him being tempted. That supports my argument.

There are no examples of him being internally tempted, i.e. desiring to commit an immoral act.

Then He's not able to aid us with internal temptation? He was not tempted in all points as we are?

Ktoyou
September 30th, 2015, 02:18 PM
Contrary to popular opinion, Christ was incapable of covetousness, not one who had to resist coveting. I would like to debate the claim and discuss the implications.
II
I understand you use if the word "incapable' for lack of a better word. I would say Jesus us capable to resist all sin and it is the foolish to temp Him.

To covet, one much be only human, which Jesus was not, only human

elohiym
September 30th, 2015, 02:21 PM
Then He's not able to aid us with internal temptation? He was not tempted in all points as we are?

Do you really believe God was internally tempted to commit immoral acts? I don't, and I already explained how he was tempted in all points as we are. See the examples when he was tempted by the devil, or tempted by the Pharisees. That doesn't mean he was tempted to steal because then he would have already sinned by coveting. But He's God! Why would you think God could covet anything when He owns everything and needs nothing?

God's Truth
September 30th, 2015, 02:24 PM
If the Christ is incapable of covetousness it follows he is incapable of sinning, hence impeccable. Therefore, the temptation He suffered was not a temptation to commit sinful acts; rather, the Christ was tempted in the same ways we are tempted when people demand we prove we are sons of God by the works they dream up for us to do. We see an example of this when the devil tempted the Christ, "If you are the son of God, turn stones into bread."

I see the many in which the devil is working through.

elohiym
September 30th, 2015, 02:24 PM
To covet, one much be only human, which Jesus was not, only human

Covetousness is the basis for violations of the ten commandments, certainly several, like adultery, stealing and idolatry. If you are correct, your principle should apply to those sins, too.

Ktoyou
September 30th, 2015, 02:25 PM
Do you really believe God was internally tempted to commit immoral acts?

OK, I see it now. Some people do not know the nature of God, while other, as we well know, do not believe Jesus is God.

I say, teach the former, and ignore the later.

Ktoyou
September 30th, 2015, 02:28 PM
Covetousness is the basis for violations of the ten commandments, certainly several, like adultery, stealing and idolatry. If you are correct, your principle should apply to those sins, too.

yes, covetousness is and act of pride and vanity is the manifestation

God's Truth
September 30th, 2015, 02:30 PM
Do you really believe God was internally tempted to commit immoral acts? I don't, and I already explained how he was tempted in all points as we are. See the examples when he was tempted by the devil, or tempted by the Pharisees. That doesn't mean he was tempted to steal because then he would have already sinned by coveting. But He's God! Why would you think God could covet anything when He owns everything and needs nothing?

Jesus did not sin even in his thoughts, and not in his heart.

lukecash12
September 30th, 2015, 02:37 PM
If the Christ is incapable of covetousness it follows he is incapable of sinning, hence impeccable. Therefore, the temptation He suffered was not a temptation to commit sinful acts; rather, the Christ was tempted in the same ways we are tempted when people demand we prove we are sons of God by the works they dream up for us to do. We see an example of this when the devil tempted the Christ, "If you are the son of God, turn stones into bread."

Christ is capable of physical sensations compelling temptation. While His divine nature isn't susceptible in the least, the temptation is important for understanding the humiliation involved in God Himself accepting our basic physical infirmities. Christ wasn't going to succumb to the temptation, but that doesn't mean that He wasn't irritated by it.

This passage is key, as it helps us understand on our own feeble level how exactly Jesus sufficed as a propitiation for sin.

Huckleberry
September 30th, 2015, 02:43 PM
...I already explained how he was tempted in all points as we are.
No, you said...


...the Christ was tempted in the same ways we are tempted when people demand we prove we are sons of God by the works they dream up for us to do.
That's not being tempted in all points as we are.

That doesn't mean he was tempted to steal because then he would have already sinned by coveting.
Then He wasn't tempted in all points as we are.


But He's God! Why would you think God could covet anything when He owns everything and needs nothing?Yes, exactly. I think this is part of why God became flesh, so that He could put to rest any possible argument that He cannot properly judge sinners. Christ was tempted in all points as we are. This is what Hebrews 2:18 and Hebrews 4:15 point out and celebrate. It relieves even we believers today of wondering if God can truly help us with temptations He can't experience or understand.

lukecash12
September 30th, 2015, 02:51 PM
Yes, exactly. I think this is part of why God became flesh, so that He could put to rest any possible argument that He cannot properly judge sinners. Christ was tempted in all points as we are. This is what Hebrews 4:15 and Hebrews 4:15 point out and celebrate. It relieves even we believers today of wondering if God can truly help us with temptations He can't experience or understand.

While I see your line of reasoning I cannot agree with this point. God doesn't brook argument over whether or not He can properly judge sinners. Before the Incarnation He was still perfectly able to and possessed the prerogative to judge sinners.

Christ was here to be the perfect sacrifice, to be bound in Isaac's stead. Trust me, you're not going to find a single place in scripture where the Lord Himself tolerates being argued with.

Huckleberry
September 30th, 2015, 03:03 PM
While I see your line of reasoning I cannot agree with this point. God doesn't brook argument over whether or not He can properly judge sinners. Before the Incarnation He was still perfectly able to and possessed the prerogative to judge sinners. Christ was here to be the perfect sacrifice, to be bound in Isaac's stead. Trust me, you're not going to find a single place in scripture where the Lord Himself tolerates being argued with.
Moses (Exodus 32:9-14)
Abraham (Genesis 18:16-32)
Mary (John 2:1-12)
Hezekiah (2 Kings 20:1-11)

All argued with God. Successfully.

Again, I think the "can't judge me" argument is fallacious. I think God is intentionally settling the argument long before it becomes relevant. Likewise, I think these four argument don't show God being led around by the nose until He realizes He's wrong. I think these incidents are God allowing this interaction to happen so that it can be recorded for all eternity. He's making a point (an eternal point) of these things.

God's Truth
September 30th, 2015, 03:13 PM
Moses (Exodus 32:9-14)
Abraham (Genesis 18:16-32)
Mary (John 2:1-12)
Hezekiah (2 Kings 20:1-11)

All argued with God. Successfully.

Again, I think the "can't judge me" argument is fallacious. I think God is intentionally settling the argument long before it becomes relevant. Likewise, I think these four argument don't show God being led around by the nose until He realizes He's wrong. I think these incidents are God allowing this interaction to happen so that it can be recorded for all eternity. He's making a point (an eternal point) of these things.

Good scriptures showing we can argue our case to the Lord.

Huckleberry
September 30th, 2015, 03:14 PM
Good scriptures showing we can argue our case to the Lord.
And that we can only "win" by being right. :chuckle:

lukecash12
September 30th, 2015, 03:19 PM
Moses (Exodus 32:9-14)
Abraham (Genesis 18:16-32)
Mary (John 2:1-12)
Hezekiah (2 Kings 20:1-11)

All argued with God. Successfully.

Again, I think the "can't judge me" argument is fallacious. I think God is intentionally settling the argument long before it becomes relevant. Likewise, I think these four argument don't show God being led around by the nose until He realizes He's wrong. I think these incidents are God allowing this interaction to happen so that it can be recorded for all eternity. He's making a point (an eternal point) of these things.

In all four of those cases they were pleading with God. When people argue they are presenting an opposed position. God doesn't brook opposition.

Huckleberry
September 30th, 2015, 03:32 PM
In all four of those cases they were pleading with God. When people argue they are presenting an opposed position. God doesn't brook opposition.
...you're serious?

lukecash12
September 30th, 2015, 03:54 PM
...you're serious?

Dead serious. In none of those cases do God's people say "well you're wrong, and this is why". Moses pleads with God to remember His promise. Abraham pleads with God to at least withhold His wrath from righteous people.

God never accommodates anything remotely like the idea "what right do you have to judge sin". Reasoning otherwise would honestly be irreverent. Jesus even stated plainly during His Sermon on the Mount that He was done making concessions like He had in the Law; the true Law, God's holy nature, had to be satisfied and He was the only one who could do it.

It appears we may be at an impasse so far at to what the actual definition of an argument is. The idea itself that God would have to establish for us why He is able to judge sin, is an irreverent idea.

Huckleberry
September 30th, 2015, 04:06 PM
The idea itself that God would have to establish for us why He is able to judge sin, is an irreverent idea.If you missed my point, it was that this point is being addressed for all eternity. God establishes all sorts of things in scripture just so that they're established, on the record, forever. Consider the contents of the ark of the covenant for an obvious example. Three pieces of evidence against the people, satisfying the "two or three" witnesses principle. The Great Flood, for another. The bible is filled with such.

Yes, of course the argument that God can't properly judge our sin is irreverent. That hardly means people in rebellion aren't going to make that argument. Most certainly you can expect to see it on judgement day, even with the argument having been put to rest by Christ long ago. Christ suffering and overcoming temptation just makes the argument all the more stupid and groundless.

glorydaz
September 30th, 2015, 05:09 PM
I explained in the OP how he was tempted like we are.

Certainly you are not saying the Lord was tempted to steal?

That would be ridiculous. God stealing. :chuckle:

I know this is hard for you to fathom, but you explaining something has nothing to do with truth or fact. :)

glorydaz
September 30th, 2015, 05:19 PM
While I see your line of reasoning I cannot agree with this point. God doesn't brook argument over whether or not He can properly judge sinners. Before the Incarnation He was still perfectly able to and possessed the prerogative to judge sinners.

Christ was here to be the perfect sacrifice, to be bound in Isaac's stead. Trust me, you're not going to find a single place in scripture where the Lord Himself tolerates being argued with.

I think his response was more to this point....


Eph. 2:7
That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.

Angel4Truth
September 30th, 2015, 05:19 PM
Heb 4:15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.

yeah, the workers don't like that in all points part.

OCTOBER23
September 30th, 2015, 05:25 PM
IT SAYS THAT HE WAS TEMPTED

GOD'S HOUSE IS MADE OF PURE TRANSPARENT GOLD

So what do we have to worry about ?
------------------------------------------

The main Temptation is BEING NAILED TO A SIX FOOT TALL PIECE OF WOOD.
================================================

elohiym
September 30th, 2015, 09:45 PM
Jesus did not sin even in his thoughts, and not in his heart.

I agree, but some people participating on this thread believe Jesus was tempted to steal. One cannot be tempted to steal without first coveting something, so they must be wrong.

elohiym
September 30th, 2015, 09:56 PM
That doesn't mean he was tempted to steal because then he would have already sinned by coveting.


Then He wasn't tempted in all points as we are.

The meaning you are reading into that idea is he was tempted to steal, murder, commit adultery, commit idolatry, etc.



Yes, exactly. I think this is part of why God became flesh, so that He could put to rest any possible argument that He cannot properly judge sinners.

Jesus would not have to be internally tempted to commit murder in order to judge murders. You have no evidence that Jesus was internally tempted to sin, just tempted in all points like we are in some way. You should not read into that your idea that he was internally tempted to commit all the immoral acts that men commit. The example we have of Him being tempted was about external temptation by the devil not internal temptation to commit an immoral act.



Christ was tempted in all points as we are. This is what Hebrews 2:18 and Hebrews 4:15 point out and celebrate. It relieves even we believers today of wondering if God can truly help us with temptations He can't experience or understand.

Can he help the child molester? :AMR:

elohiym
September 30th, 2015, 10:10 PM
Christ is capable of physical sensations compelling temptation. While His divine nature isn't susceptible in the least, the temptation is important for understanding the humiliation involved in God Himself accepting our basic physical infirmities. Christ wasn't going to succumb to the temptation, but that doesn't mean that He wasn't irritated by it.

Did Christ not know that everything in the world belonged to Him?

Colossians 1:16 For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities-- all things have been created through Him and for Him.

Christ has nothing to covet, so nothing to desire to steal. It's simply impossible to covet what belongs to you, what has been created for you and given to you.

Here's a challenge for you: name some immoral acts you can be tempted to do without sinning while you are tempted to commit those immoral acts.

elohiym
September 30th, 2015, 10:20 PM
I know this is hard for you to fathom, but you explaining something has nothing to do with truth or fact. :)

The Bible has passages depicting the temptation of Christ. I explained that is an example of Christ being tempted. He is not being tempted to commit an immoral act, but tempted to prove His identity by works.

Interestingly, those of you believing Jesus was tempted to commit immoral acts but resisted are essentially arguing that Jesus maintained his righteousness by works. :chuckle:

God's Truth
October 1st, 2015, 03:09 PM
I agree, but some people participating on this thread believe Jesus was tempted to steal. One cannot be tempted to steal without first coveting something, so they must be wrong.

They are wrong. You are right.

Sin does not come from the flesh.


James 1:14 But when a man is tempted, it is his own passions that carry him away and serve as a bait.

James 1:15 Then the passion conceives, and becomes the parent of sin; and sin, when fully matured, gives birth to death.


Jesus explains too that sin comes from thoughts that are put into your heart, where a person fosters it.


Matthew 15:9 For out of the heart come evil thoughts--murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false testimony, slander.

Proverbs 4:23
Above all else, guard your heart, for everything you do flows from it.

God's Truth
October 1st, 2015, 03:21 PM
Jesus was tempted but he had no passions for that which he was being tempted.

Therefore, the passions did not conceive and become sin.

Jesus never had in his heart the passions of evil in which sins come.

Jesus was tempted by the devil in a controlled atmosphere in the desert.

lukecash12
October 1st, 2015, 03:27 PM
If you missed my point, it was that this point is being addressed for all eternity. God establishes all sorts of things in scripture just so that they're established, on the record, forever. Consider the contents of the ark of the covenant for an obvious example. Three pieces of evidence against the people, satisfying the "two or three" witnesses principle. The Great Flood, for another. The bible is filled with such.

Yes, of course the argument that God can't properly judge our sin is irreverent. That hardly means people in rebellion aren't going to make that argument. Most certainly you can expect to see it on judgement day, even with the argument having been put to rest by Christ long ago. Christ suffering and overcoming temptation just makes the argument all the more stupid and groundless.

If you truly meant all of this in the sense that God does what He does also for the benefit of our understanding, that He is both compassionate and concerned with our posterity, and just in the sense that He upholds an incontrovertible record, then we are in agreement. In that light, I believe both of our perspectives are worthy devotional tangents when considering the temptation.

The Lord is both concerned with the perfect sacrifice and compassionate towards us. Believers and rebels alike have no excuse for not understanding.