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Jacob
September 30th, 2015, 01:44 PM
One of the best ways to learn Torah is to expose yourself to the Torah reading on Shabbat (the Sabbath). I see value in listening to the Torah read aloud.

Personal study of Torah is also beneficial. A person can indeed read the Bible on his or her own.

Do you listen to Torah being read? How do you study Torah?

fzappa13
September 30th, 2015, 01:55 PM
One of the things I have most admired about the Jewish faith is that if they attend Sabbath services they will hear the Torah twice in a year. In the Protestant faith, for the most part, those who so attend will be lucky to hear a few dozen verses in that same time period.

Reading it systematically has it's value but I like to follow words and phrases as they continually reappear and help to flesh out the meaning of them in aggregate.

Ktoyou
September 30th, 2015, 02:04 PM
One of the best ways to learn Torah is to expose yourself to the Torah reading on Shabbat (the Sabbath). I see value in listening to the Torah read aloud.

Personal study of Torah is also beneficial. A person can indeed read the Bible on his or her own.

Do you listen to Torah being read? How do you study Torah?

You surly are able to study it in Thursday, so read it tomorrow:p

6days
September 30th, 2015, 02:13 PM
One of the best ways to learn Torah is to expose yourself to the Torah reading on Shabbat (the Sabbath). I see value in listening to the Torah read aloud.

Personal study of Torah is also beneficial. A person can indeed read the Bible on his or her own.

Do you listen to Torah being read? How do you study Torah?
You have to admire the 12 year old who had the entire thing memorized.

Jacob
September 30th, 2015, 02:49 PM
One of the things I have most admired about the Jewish faith is that if they attend Sabbath services they will hear the Torah twice in a year. In the Protestant faith, for the most part, those who so attend will be lucky to hear a few dozen verses in that same time period.

Reading it systematically has it's value but I like to follow words and phrases as they continually reappear and help to flesh out the meaning of them in aggregate.I have been a part of congregations with both the three year Torah reading cycle and the one year Torah reading cycle.

lukecash12
September 30th, 2015, 02:58 PM
I have been a part of congregations with both the three year Torah reading cycle and the one year Torah reading cycle.

Am I right in assuming that you're a Messianic Jew? That particular group has fascinated me for some time now.

As for reading the Torah, I think it's great to cover it all and have noticed that there are significant areas of scripture which are glossed over by basically all Protestants, especially evangelicals and charismatics. The Song of Solomon in particular is avoided like the plague, which I personally think is a shame.

Jacob
September 30th, 2015, 03:37 PM
Am I right in assuming that you're a Messianic Jew? That particular group has fascinated me for some time now.

As for reading the Torah, I think it's great to cover it all and have noticed that there are significant areas of scripture which are glossed over by basically all Protestants, especially evangelicals and charismatics. The Song of Solomon in particular is avoided like the plague, which I personally think is a shame.The congregations I referred to are Messianic or Jewish.

RBBI
September 30th, 2015, 06:01 PM
I study for myself and I also attend Shabbat services. The Rabbi there is an expert on the book of Isaiah. Peace

Jacob
October 1st, 2015, 12:29 PM
One of the best ways to learn Torah is to expose yourself to the Torah reading on Shabbat (the Sabbath). I see value in listening to the Torah read aloud.

Personal study of Torah is also beneficial. A person can indeed read the Bible on his or her own.

Do you listen to Torah being read? How do you study Torah?In my personal Torah study I read from my Chumash. It includes a commentary anthologized from the Rabbinic writings.

On the Sabbath, in addition to hearing the Torah read, there is also benefit from listening to the Rabbi and what he has to say about the Torah portion.

RBBI
October 1st, 2015, 03:52 PM
In my personal Torah study I read from my Chumash. It includes a commentary anthologized from the Rabbinic writings.

On the Sabbath, in addition to hearing the Torah read, there is also benefit from listening to the Rabbi and what he has to say about the Torah portion.

Definitely. And had not the wild olive branch boasted itself against the other one, we'd ALL be listening to Torah portions every true Sabbath, as He intended. But I'm sure it didn't take Him by surprise, since He knows the hearts of men. Peace

Jacob
October 1st, 2015, 03:53 PM
Definitely. And had not the wild olive branch boasted itself against the other one, we'd ALL be listening to Torah portions every true Sabbath, as He intended. But I'm sure it didn't take Him by surprise, since He knows the hearts of men. PeaceNot everyone spends the time to understand Torah.

aikido7
October 1st, 2015, 04:02 PM
One of the best ways to learn Torah is to expose yourself to the Torah reading on Shabbat (the Sabbath). I see value in listening to the Torah read aloud.

Personal study of Torah is also beneficial. A person can indeed read the Bible on his or her own.

Do you listen to Torah being read? How do you study Torah?First of all, I believe all Christians should dispense with the term "Old" Testament. It is the Hebrew Bible, and all Jews take it on its own terms--they do not change the context to reflect prophesy of Jesus's coming as Matthew freely does.

The great moral narrative of the Jewish people--from Pharaoh to Exodus, to wandering in the wilderness to eventual paradise--is conveniently ignored by traditional Christians.

And the Jews proclivity to build into the very structure of their society a kind of ancient socialism that gives justice and dignity to all.
And, of course, Jesus--being a Jew himself--pushed that envelope to its limits and preached an ethic that went way beyond what the Jews had done.

His preaching around poverty makes up the clear majority of his viewpoint. And, of course, his embrace of the destitute and homeless, as well as those considered "impure" or outside the gates of the city.

RBBI
October 1st, 2015, 04:07 PM
Not everyone spends the time to understand Torah.

You said it....Makes no sense to me why anyone would be more inclined to throw away precious centuries of rabbis studying all day every day, their entire lifetime's work, and who actually know the language, in favor of relative "Johnny come latelys".

If you want your car to run, you don't take it to a bakery shop. But hey, what do I know. Care for a little icing on that Ford? :chuckle:

Jacob
October 1st, 2015, 04:34 PM
First of all, I believe all Christians should dispense with the term "Old" Testament. It is the Hebrew Bible, and all Jews take it on its own terms--they do not change the context to reflect prophesy of Jesus's coming as Matthew freely does.

The great moral narrative of the Jewish people--from Pharaoh to Exodus, to wandering in the wilderness to eventual paradise--is conveniently ignored by traditional Christians.

And the Jews proclivity to build into the very structure of their society a kind of ancient socialism that gives justice and dignity to all.
And, of course, Jesus--being a Jew himself--pushed that envelope to its limits and preached an ethic that went way beyond what the Jews had done.

His preaching around poverty makes up the clear majority of his viewpoint. And, of course, his embrace of the destitute and homeless, as well as those considered "impure" or outside the gates of the city.
We all have things to learn here. Paying particular attention to the words being used is something you are no doubt aware of the need for. I do hope we can better understand what is being said through study of the Torah itself.

When you speak of the gospel of Matthew, I do not know that I follow what you are saying. It is not time to argue. But I do wonder if further study of the Torah and the rest of the TaNaKh will help to inform you in your reading of Matthew.

aikido7
October 1st, 2015, 04:45 PM
We all have things to learn here. Paying particular attention to the words being used is something you are no doubt aware of the need for. I do hope we can better understand what is being said through study of the Torah itself.

When you speak of the gospel of Matthew, I do not know that I follow what you are saying. It is not time to argue. But I do wonder if further study of the Torah and the rest of the TaNaKh will help to inform you in your reading of Matthew.Anything Jewish from biblical times helps me understand the agendas of the gospel writers and better informs me. But let it be known that I do not accept the idea that Jesus was intending to found a new religion. He was a Jew of his time who radically and profoundly pushed the envelope of Judaism up to that time.

I can easily look at Matthew this way: the early followers of Jesus often used the concept of "messiah" to refer to Jesus and to locate him within Jewish tradition. But one major problem was that a messiah figure could never be killed or martyred. All the word actually meant was an anointed military king who would defeat the conquerors with their boot on the Jewish neck. So the early followers soon proclaimed a resurrection of the body (except Paul, who saw a different type of body) and Jesus became firmly anchored into a secure tradition.

I think Matthew's agenda was to make the normative Jews aware of Jesus's prophetic vision as being pre-figured in the Hebrew Bible (what we call the "Old" Testament). But a careful examination (and the only common sense one, in my opinion) is that the great Hebrew prophets spoke to the conditions and to the historical details in their OWN time and place.

They were prophets in the sense that they saw the way Israel was going and that if it did not repent it would go where it was headed. But there is no way anyone could speak of Jesus particularly in a time thousands of years before his birth.

I only wish now I had studied Greek more. The fact that we now possess multiple translations of the gospels indicate that God's inspiration works in many different ways.

Jacob
October 1st, 2015, 04:51 PM
Anything Jewish from biblical times helps me understand the agendas of the gospel writers and better informs me. But let it be known that I do not accept the idea that Jesus was intending to found a new religion. He was a Jew of his time who radically and profoundly pushed the envelope of Judaism up to that time.

I only wish now I had studied Greek more. The fact that we now possess multiple translations of the gospels indicate that God's inspiration works in many different ways.Jesus did not bring, found, or start a new religion.

Matthew can be found in Hebrew as well as in Greek. I have listened to the Hebrew, though I am still learning Hebrew.

aikido7
October 1st, 2015, 06:21 PM
... though I am still learning Hebrew.
I am jealous! If I were younger and "on fire" for Jesus back then as I am now, I would have probably studied Hebrew and gone to a seminary or a Bible college.

Since most biblical scholars use the LXX for their baseline source, it's the Greek that is also important to know (just my opinion).

It is so cool you are immersing yourself in Christian tradition. We cannot ignore what the Jews did and what kind of society they envisioned. They were the only ones who were seriously committed to building a socialist-type structure into the very culture they held dear. And Jesus, of course, built on that attitude and extended it far beyond any Jew's conception at the time. In my view, anyway.

Jacob
October 1st, 2015, 06:24 PM
I am jealous! If I were younger and "on fire" for Jesus back then as I am now, I would have probably studied Hebrew and gone to a seminary or a Bible college.

Since most biblical scholars use the LXX for their baseline source, it's the Greek that is also important to know (just my opinion).

It is so cool you are immersing yourself in Christian tradition. We cannot ignore what the Jews did and what kind of society they envisioned. They were the only ones who were seriously committed to building a socialist-type structure into the very culture they held dear. And Jesus, of course, built on that attitude and extended it far beyond any Jew's conception at the time. In my view, anyway.Torah study can be a part of Christian education just as it is within Judaism.

aikido7
October 1st, 2015, 07:03 PM
Torah study can be a part of Christian education just as it is within Judaism.Given Christian origins, Judaism must be studied--even a little.

Jacob
October 1st, 2015, 07:14 PM
Given Christian origins, Judaism must be studied--even a little.Judaism predates Christianity. Even the early church following Yeshua's ascension was entirely Jewish. But with the expectation that the Messiah would come having been present within Judaism, it was only later that some believers and followers, disciples really, were called Christian. Before this there were only followers of the way.

I posit that Christianity neither was nor is a new religion.

aikido7
October 1st, 2015, 07:17 PM
Judaism predates Christianity. Even the early church following Yeshua's ascension was entirely Jewish. But with the expectation that the Messiah would come having been present within Judaism, it was only later that some believers and followers, disciples really, were called Christian. Before this there were only followers of the way.

I posit that Christianity neither was nor is a new religion.And I have also concluded that today's version of Christianity is clearly something Jesus would have rejected.

In fact, the irony is that his message was to the House of Israel and he thought Gentiles were "dogs" and mocked their praying style.
Now he is worshiped by Gentiles and put on a divine pedestal, even though Jesus never said he was divine or God.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
I have to bracket the Gospel of John, which is theology and not history. John's Jesus says both "The Father is greater than I" and "I and the Father are One."

Jesus's turn about to "declare the gospel to all nations" was added to the text by those influenced by Paul's outreach to "the nations" 30 years after the crucifixion.

meshak
October 1st, 2015, 07:22 PM
Given Christian origins, Judaism must be studied--even a little.

Judaism is observing Moses' law.

It is all in OT.

aikido7
October 1st, 2015, 07:27 PM
Judaism is observing Moses' law.

It is all in OT.I believe you are right. However, if you were to ask Jesus he would tell you he is observing Moses's law as well. But at the same time he was pushing the envelope of Jewish teachings to an extent never before done in all of history.

Moses said adultery was forbidden. Jesus taught that even thinking about it was forbidden. And he also came up with the notion of "loving your enemies." No one in history had ever taught such a scandalous idea.

Jacob
October 1st, 2015, 07:27 PM
The new covenant was promised to the house of Israel and the house of Judah.

meshak
October 1st, 2015, 07:32 PM
I believe you are right. However, if you were to ask Jesus he would tell you he is observing Moses's law as well. But at the same time he was pushing the envelope of Jewish teachings to an extent never before done in all of history.

Moses said adultery was forbidden. Jesus taught that even thinking about it was forbidden. And he also came up with the notion of "loving your enemies." No one in history had ever taught such a scandalous idea.

Moses had tons of laws that we cannot keep up.

Jesus made it simple.

aikido7
October 1st, 2015, 07:32 PM
The new covenant was promised to the house of Israel and the house of Judah.If you could concisely interpret the book on the Jewish Gospel of John, how would you do it?

What are the "take-aways" you got from the book?

Jacob
October 1st, 2015, 07:41 PM
The term Biblical Judaism is often applied to Jesus' day.

The nation of Israel was presently observing the Law of Moses, which was what God had given them years earlier when He made a covenant with them.

The prophet Jeremiah prophesied after the Law of Moses was established for Israel, which followed the exodus from Egypt, involving the time in the wilderness and when they had entered the Promised Land (the land of Israel).

Before Jesus (Yeshua) and the coming of the new covenant, both the kingdom of Israel and the kingdom of Judah has been exiled, and Judah had returned from Babylonian captivity including the Jerusalem wall and temple being rebuilt.

Jacob
October 1st, 2015, 07:43 PM
If you could concisely interpret the book on the Jewish Gospel of John, how would you do it?

What are the "take-aways" you got from the book?I recommend reading The Jewish Gospel of John by Dr. Eli Lizorkin-Eyzenberg.

He addresses misconceptions about John's gospel, for both Jewish and Gentile audiences.

fzappa13
October 1st, 2015, 10:08 PM
Jesus did not bring, found, or start a new religion.

Matthew can be found in Hebrew as well as in Greek. I have listened to the Hebrew, though I am still learning Hebrew.

I'm intrigued by the notion but I can see a pitfall here ... Hebrew to Greek to Hebrew? I mean, Jews wrote the NT but there is no extant original Hebrew text of the NT that I am aware of so ...

Jacob
October 1st, 2015, 10:17 PM
I'm intrigued by the notion but I can see a pitfall here ... Hebrew to Greek to Hebrew? I mean, Jews wrote the NT but there is no extant original Hebrew text of the NT that I am aware of so ...I don't know Greek and I am only learning Hebrew.

fzappa13
October 1st, 2015, 10:33 PM
I don't know Greek and I am only learning Hebrew.

Well, let us hope you aren't reading an N.T. text that was spoken by Hebrews, translated to Greek, then to English, and then back to Hebrew. You know what happens when when you hear of a tale third hand.

Jacob
October 1st, 2015, 10:52 PM
Well, let us hope you aren't reading an N.T. text that was spoken by Hebrews, translated to Greek, then to English, and then back to Hebrew. You know what happens when when you hear of a tale third hand.Somebody mentioned Greek. I don't know Greek.

aikido7
October 2nd, 2015, 12:27 AM
I recommend reading The Jewish Gospel of John by Dr. Eli Lizorkin-Eyzenberg.

He addresses misconceptions about John's gospel, for both Jewish and Gentile audiences.
What are a few of these misconceptions that you learned? It's just at this point I probably won't buy the book, but it if is reviewed on Amazon I might read all the reviews.

I already had to give away hundreds of books on Jesus to be able to move into the smaller place we are living in now. I only kept a little less than 100 and I try to watch my book-buying urges these days.

Unless the book seems like it might totally rip the rug out from under me, I probably won't consider reading it at all.

aikido7
October 2nd, 2015, 12:28 AM
To whomever, most biblical scholars work off of the LXX--the first Greek translation of the gospels.

I am not judging them right or wrong. I am only sharing historical fact that I have learned is true.

Jacob
October 2nd, 2015, 12:44 AM
What are a few of these misconceptions that you learned? It's just at this point I probably won't buy the book, but it if is reviewed on Amazon I might read all the reviews.

I already had to give away hundreds of books on Jesus to be able to move into the smaller place we are living in now. I only kept a little less than 100 and I try to watch my book-buying urges these days.

Unless the book seems like it might totally rip the rug out from under me, I probably won't consider reading it at all.I encourage you to check out the reviews.

If you have read the gospel of John you either approved of it or found something you wrestled with. He addresses that for which people might object. So it isn't just one thing.

Jacob
October 2nd, 2015, 12:54 AM
To whomever, most biblical scholars work off of the LXX--the first Greek translation of the gospels.

I am not judging them right or wrong. I am only sharing historical fact that I have learned is true.Do you believe that is what the Septuagint is?

Anyhow, this thread is about Torah. In this it makes sense to talk about Hebrew.

The entire Bible is important. But I think the only Greek word I know (at least for certain, that is) is the word translated into English as Deity or God. Even in this I don't know for sure that I would know what I am talking about.

aikido7
October 2nd, 2015, 12:59 AM
Do you believe that is what the Septuagint is?

Anyhow, this thread is about Torah. In this it makes sense to talk about Hebrew.

The entire Bible is important. But I think the only Greek word I know (at least for certain, that is) is the word translated into English as Deity or God. Even in this I don't know for sure that I would know what I am talking about.You are absolutely right. I have changed the context of your original thread. Out of ignorance, but nevertheless I was unwillingly sowing confusion.

I think I will try to gracefully bow out....

Thanks for your replies, though. Seriously.

Jacob
October 2nd, 2015, 01:04 AM
You are absolutely right. I have changed the context of your original thread. Out of ignorance, but nevertheless I was unwillingly sowing confusion.

I think I will try to gracefully bow out....

Thanks for your replies, though. Seriously.
We have discussed both Matthew and John here in this thread, as they pertain to Hebrew or Jewish thinking from what I know. I'm not sure how Greek came into the conversation.

I am thankful I was able to listen to the gospel of Matthew in Hebrew, and able to read the book about the Jewish Gospel of John (The gospel of John is a Jewish book, it is not anti-Semitic as some might think).

fzappa13
October 2nd, 2015, 07:02 AM
Somebody mentioned Greek. I don't know Greek. It's a form of Greek no longer spoken called Koine Greek.

Jacob
March 30th, 2017, 08:11 PM
I'm intrigued by the notion but I can see a pitfall here ... Hebrew to Greek to Hebrew? I mean, Jews wrote the NT but there is no extant original Hebrew text of the NT that I am aware of so ...

Shalom.

I do not know that the entire or any of the New Testament Scriptures, the writings called New Testament (Matthew to Revelation whether you call them that or not), were originally written in Hebrew (found or existent or not)).

Shalom.

Jacob