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Totton Linnet
September 30th, 2015, 04:23 AM
Honestly some of these truths are so extremely simple to understand. There is no need to traverse land and sea to seek out a quirky linguist to teach you that the bible does not say what it so clearly does.

A child can understand it.

Jesus Christ is equal with God, yet humbles Himself to the Father. It just is not possible to be equal with God and not BE God.

genuineoriginal
September 30th, 2015, 08:12 AM
How can a wife be equal with a husband and not be a husband?

Totton Linnet
September 30th, 2015, 12:02 PM
She is not a cat or a dog, she is human.

keypurr
September 30th, 2015, 12:20 PM
Honestly some of these truths are so extremely simple to understand. There is no need to traverse land and sea to seek out a quirky linguist to teach you that the bible does not say what it so clearly does.

A child can understand it.

Jesus Christ is equal with God, yet humbles Himself to the Father. It just is not possible to be equal with God and not BE God.

Joh_10:29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

Equal?????? I don't believe it.

Bright Raven
September 30th, 2015, 12:24 PM
Joh_10:29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

Equal?????? I don't believe it.

Are He and the Father one?

genuineoriginal
September 30th, 2015, 12:39 PM
Are He and the Father one?

Can you explain the manner in which Jesus and the Father are one?


John 17:11
11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.


John 17:22
22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:

genuineoriginal
September 30th, 2015, 12:45 PM
She is not a cat or a dog, she is human.

I did not ask whether the wife was a human.
Want to try again?

How can a wife be equal with a husband and not be a husband?

Totton Linnet
September 30th, 2015, 03:37 PM
Joh_10:29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

Equal?????? I don't believe it.

Then deny scripture...it says He humbled Himself...submitted Himself to the Father....but now He has the glory He had with the Father before the world began.

These are simple truths

Totton Linnet
September 30th, 2015, 03:42 PM
I did not ask whether the wife was a human.
Want to try again?

How can a wife be equal with a husband and not be a husband?

I know what you asked, you asked an invalid question for the relationship between the Father and the Son are not comparable to the relationship between man and woman.

But if you want to stretch logic and persist to ask I still reply that she is the same class of being...I remind you that in the church and in heaven is neither male or female.

genuineoriginal
September 30th, 2015, 04:08 PM
I know what you asked, you asked an invalid question for the relationship between the Father and the Son are not comparable to the relationship between man and woman.
The relationship between a husband and a wife is more equal than a relationship between a father and a son, isn't it?


But if you want to stretch logic and persist to ask I still reply that she is the same class of being...I remind you that in the church and in heaven is neither male or female.
According to your logic a wife is a husband because they are the same class of being.

Are you sure you don't know the difference between a wife and a husband?

Totton Linnet
October 1st, 2015, 04:52 AM
The relationship between a husband and a wife is more equal than a relationship between a father and a son, isn't it?


According to your logic a wife is a husband because they are the same class of being.

Are you sure you don't know the difference between a wife and a husband?

It is invalid for husband and wife are the same class of being...in fact you are supporting MY argument, husband and wife are roles for which each are equipped, nor I might add could the class of being continue to exist if it were not so.

The class of being is Humankind.

You can't [with any integrity] argue that Jesus Christ is equal with God and yet not God...in fact the scripture specifically says He was in the form of God.

It speaks about His being in the form of God as opposed to His subsequently taking on Himself the form of a servant.

You are on to a dud'n here Gen.

genuineoriginal
October 1st, 2015, 07:22 AM
It is invalid for husband and wife are the same class of being...in fact you are supporting MY argument, husband and wife are roles for which each are equipped, nor I might add could the class of being continue to exist if it were not so.

The class of being is Humankind.
Here is what you are arguing:
A wife is the wife's own husband because both are human.
A son is the son's own father because they are both the same class of being.

Your argument fails completely.

nikolai_42
October 1st, 2015, 07:27 AM
Can you explain the manner in which Jesus and the Father are one?


John 17:11
11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.


John 17:22
22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:

If you are one with Christ, does that make you worthy of worship?

Certainly you believe Jesus is worthy of worship...don't you?

genuineoriginal
October 1st, 2015, 07:36 AM
You can't [with any integrity] argue that Jesus Christ is equal with God and yet not God
The Bible shows an example in the story of Joseph where Joseph is made equal with Pharaoh.
To the people of Egypt and the surrounding lands, Joseph making a proclamation or legal decision was the exact same thing as the Pharaoh making the same proclamation or legal decision.

To you, it may mean that you think Joseph is Pharaoh (even though the title of Pharaoh is the only thing Pharaoh kept from Joseph).
To me, I understand that it does not matter whether Joseph is Pharaoh or not, because both of them speak as one.


...in fact the scripture specifically says He was in the form of God.

It speaks about His being in the form of God as opposed to His subsequently taking on Himself the form of a servant.
Yes, and the Greek word translated as 'form', μορφή morphē, specifically means outward appearance.
Of course Genesis uses similar words when it says man was made in the image of God.

According to logic and to the words used in the Bible, there is no basis to make a claim that Jesus, the Son of God, is YHVH, the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.

If Jesus is YHVH, then that is a mystery that was only revealed outside of the words written in the Bible.

jamie
October 1st, 2015, 09:34 AM
According to logic and to the words used in the Bible, there is no basis to make a claim that Jesus, the Son of God, is YHVH, the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.


Could we make the claim that Christ, the God who was with God, yielded his immortality and position to become human?

RBBI
October 1st, 2015, 10:36 AM
The Bible shows an example in the story of Joseph where Joseph is made equal with Pharaoh.
To the people of Egypt and the surrounding lands, Joseph making a proclamation or legal decision was the exact same thing as the Pharaoh making the same proclamation or legal decision.

To you, it may mean that you think Joseph is Pharaoh (even though the title of Pharaoh is the only thing Pharaoh kept from Joseph).
To me, I understand that it does not matter whether Joseph is Pharaoh or not, because both of them speak as one.


Yes, and the Greek word translated as 'form', μορφή morphē, specifically means outward appearance.
Of course Genesis uses similar words when it says man was made in the image of God.

According to logic and to the words used in the Bible, there is no basis to make a claim that Jesus, the Son of God, is YHVH, the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.

If Jesus is YHVH, then that is a mystery that was only revealed outside of the words written in the Bible.

Exactly. They don't believe David's testimony, or Yeshua's reference to it. Yet THAT is so simple even a child could understand it. David said, I heard the Lord (God the Father), say to MY Lord (Yeshua)........I KNOW its true because like David, I heard the Father speak to the Son IN ME. They are NOT the same, He does not talk to Himself. Even Yeshua prayed and said He knew the Father always hears Him. Was He only hearing Himself? Peace

Totton Linnet
October 1st, 2015, 01:20 PM
Here is what you are arguing:
A wife is the wife's own husband because both are human.
A son is the son's own father because they are both the same class of being.

Your argument fails completely.

You are making an invalid comparison for Christ's equality with God is not an equality of roles. Even in the case of the wife and husband they were created equal their true relationship [in Christ] is equality, woman was only made subject to man because of sin.

Their equality is in their humanity...which is my arguent that Christ's equality with God is in their Deity.

Totton Linnet
October 1st, 2015, 01:31 PM
The Bible shows an example in the story of Joseph where Joseph is made equal with Pharaoh.
To the people of Egypt and the surrounding lands, Joseph making a proclamation or legal decision was the exact same thing as the Pharaoh making the same proclamation or legal decision.

To you, it may mean that you think Joseph is Pharaoh (even though the title of Pharaoh is the only thing Pharaoh kept from Joseph).
To me, I understand that it does not matter whether Joseph is Pharaoh or not, because both of them speak as one.


Yes, and the Greek word translated as 'form', μορφή morphē, specifically means outward appearance.
Of course Genesis uses similar words when it says man was made in the image of God.

According to logic and to the words used in the Bible, there is no basis to make a claim that Jesus, the Son of God, is YHVH, the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.

If Jesus is YHVH, then that is a mystery that was only revealed outside of the words written in the Bible.

Once again you use an invalid proposition for Joseph was made equal with Pharoah by designation from Pharoah but of Christ it is written that He was equal with God but humbled Himself.

Jesus is Jahweh God, He is the God of the OT who spoke through the prophets Peter says the Spirit of Christ spoke through the prophets.

We have Isaiah saying "As I live saith the Lord to Me every knee shall bow and every tongue confess Me"

Christ is the EXPRESS image of God...that as you say is He is God's outward form, He is the visibility of the invisible God.

RBBI
October 1st, 2015, 03:43 PM
Jesus is Jahweh God, He is the God of the OT who spoke through the prophets Peter says the Spirit of Christ spoke through the prophets.

Once again; the Seed Son who said He spoke what was given Him to speak by His Father, HE was the one who spoke through the prophets. He is not YAHWEH, nor was it the man Yeshua who spoke to them.

I think it was the Romans who devised a torturous death by forcing a live person to have a dead person strapped to them until they both decayed. It's basically the same thing you're doing, trying to drag a man around thru the centuries, not seeing that the natural flesh of Him was the husk, not the Seed. Hereafter we'll not know HIM after the flesh, but after the Spirit. Peace

glorydaz
October 1st, 2015, 04:02 PM
How can a wife be equal with a husband and not be a husband?

How is your body not you?
How is your spirit not you?
How is your soul not you?

Your wife isn't you. Ask her. I'm sure she knows.

genuineoriginal
October 1st, 2015, 05:12 PM
You are making an invalid comparison for Christ's equality with God is not an equality of roles.
What makes you think that?
The Bible is very clear that the relationship between Joseph and Pharaoh is like the relationship between the Son and God.

Genesis 41:39-44
39 And Pharaoh said unto Joseph, Forasmuch as God hath shewed thee all this, there is none so discreet and wise as thou art:
40 Thou shalt be over my house, and according unto thy word shall all my people be ruled: only in the throne will I be greater than thou.
41 And Pharaoh said unto Joseph, See, I have set thee over all the land of Egypt.
42 And Pharaoh took off his ring from his hand, and put it upon Joseph's hand, and arrayed him in vestures of fine linen, and put a gold chain about his neck;
43 And he made him to ride in the second chariot which he had; and they cried before him, Bow the knee: and he made him ruler over all the land of Egypt.
44 And Pharaoh said unto Joseph, I am Pharaoh, and without thee shall no man lift up his hand or foot in all the land of Egypt.

1 Corinthians 15:27-28:27-28
27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.


Even in the case of the wife and husband they were created equal their true relationship [in Christ] is equality, woman was only made subject to man because of sin.

Their equality is in their humanity
You know that the relationship between each other is the one at stake, but you are now trying to change that by introducing a third party.

Here is how your newly introduced person affects the dynamic in my example.
A wife can never be her own husband, but both the wife and the husband can be the parent of the child.



...which is my arguent that Christ's equality with God is in their Deity.
The Bible does not say that, but the Bible does say that the equality is in their Lordship over us.
We are to be servants to both Jesus and God, and if we are servants of Jesus then we will worship only God the Father because that is the command Jesus gave us.

The relationship between Jesus and God is described over and over and over and over as being that of a Son and a Father.

Why would you want to tell people to stop paying attention to the clear words of scripture in order to adopt a doctrine that is never presented clearly in the Bible?

genuineoriginal
October 1st, 2015, 05:18 PM
How is your body not you?
How is your spirit not you?
How is your soul not you?
It is not God's body, but one God made for Jesus.

Hebrews 10:5
5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:
God's spirit is on His prophets.

Numbers 11:29
29 And Moses said unto him, Enviest thou for my sake? would God that all the Lord'S people were prophets, and that the Lord would put his spirit upon them!
And nowhere in scripture is there any indication that Jesus' soul was God's soul.

Your wife isn't you. Ask her. I'm sure she knows.
That is the point.
Whenever you are talking about two different persons, it is wrong to claim that they are the same person.

Lazy afternoon
October 1st, 2015, 05:55 PM
Jesus is Jahweh God, He is the God of the OT who spoke through the prophets Peter says the Spirit of Christ spoke through the prophets.

.


Heb 1:1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,

Heb 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son,


LA

keypurr
October 1st, 2015, 06:21 PM
Then deny scripture...it says He humbled Himself...submitted Himself to the Father....but now He has the glory He had with the Father before the world began.

These are simple truths

You deny the verse I gave you.

Totton Linnet
October 2nd, 2015, 02:55 AM
What makes you think that?
The Bible is very clear that the relationship between Joseph and Pharaoh is like the relationship between the Son and God.

Genesis 41:39-44
39 And Pharaoh said unto Joseph, Forasmuch as God hath shewed thee all this, there is none so discreet and wise as thou art:
40 Thou shalt be over my house, and according unto thy word shall all my people be ruled: only in the throne will I be greater than thou.
41 And Pharaoh said unto Joseph, See, I have set thee over all the land of Egypt.
42 And Pharaoh took off his ring from his hand, and put it upon Joseph's hand, and arrayed him in vestures of fine linen, and put a gold chain about his neck;
43 And he made him to ride in the second chariot which he had; and they cried before him, Bow the knee: and he made him ruler over all the land of Egypt.
44 And Pharaoh said unto Joseph, I am Pharaoh, and without thee shall no man lift up his hand or foot in all the land of Egypt.

1 Corinthians 15:27-28:27-28
27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.


You know that the relationship between each other is the one at stake, but you are now trying to change that by introducing a third party.

Here is how your newly introduced person affects the dynamic in my example.
A wife can never be her own husband, but both the wife and the husband can be the parent of the child.



The Bible does not say that, but the Bible does say that the equality is in their Lordship over us.
We are to be servants to both Jesus and God, and if we are servants of Jesus then we will worship only God the Father because that is the command Jesus gave us.

The relationship between Jesus and God is described over and over and over and over as being that of a Son and a Father.

Why would you want to tell people to stop paying attention to the clear words of scripture in order to adopt a doctrine that is never presented clearly in the Bible?

You keep repeating the same dud argument and I will keep correcting you, the man and the woman are both humankind. The Father and the Son are both God.

The opposite is true concerning Pharoah and Joseph when compared to the Son and the Father. Pharoah elevated Joseph to the place of rule over Egypt.

With Christ He was equal with God and shared His glory but humbled Himself to take on the form of a servant.

The form of a servant is in relation to His being in the form of God.

What a glorious doctrine this is...that PERSONALLY God has come to save us...hallelujah, Immanual God with us.

You say the wife cannot be the husband but the bible says they become one flesh...they are the same class of being...so are the Father and the Son.

The bible says equal with God, the bible says one with the Father, the bible says He was with God and He was God.

Handle it.

You worship the Father? how do you do that? you do not know His form...you throw your hands in the air and do a Russian knee dance do you? "look at me I'm worshipping the Father"

The Father is only known through the Son and God has demanded that we should honour the Son EVEN AS we honour the Father...the apostles worshipped Christ.

MichaelCadry
October 2nd, 2015, 04:37 AM
Hello Everyone,

From all that I understand, Jesus Christ was the Son of God. The Son. I would not doubt that God put His Own Spirit into Jesus since He was a baby. And gave Jesus to receive the Holy Ghost when He was baptized by John the Baptist. I think that His age must have been 30. Jesus of Nazareth became the Christ then, even though it was His birthright from the start. But be sure that the "Son," Jesus did pray to His FATHER before He was taken by the soldiers in the garden, and there are many references that He was God's Son. God actually put a lot of His Spirit into Jesus, the Christ! He is equal to God in the Spirit, but He still is a tad different in that He was a human also. I don't think you'll be able to understand this. It's like two identical wine glasses. Each has wine in them, but one of them has a smidgen {let's say two drops} less wine than the other. The one with a smidgen less is Jesus, the Son of God. But in all other ways, they are equal. Because it was God sending down some of His Spirit in the form of a man. When that man dies, His Spirit goes back to God and is One with Him. Jesus said, "He that sees me hath seen the Father." So now, we have a face to imagine when we think of God. Now, when I was a kid, I knew God was different and I envisioned His Spirit, without actually seeing a face. But then, when I learned about Jesus in Sunday School, I learned about Jesus and saw His picture. Now I'm told He doesn't necessarily look that way. I say that whoever sees the Shroud of Turin can say that they know what Jesus looks like. I don't care if scientists say it is not real. They have poor dating methods. I believe in Creation, not scientists who believe in evolution. Well, this is lengthy, so I'll close for now. In other words, God and the Lord Jesus are very closely Equal. That's the best I can do for you as far as my understanding goes. I have heard the devils call Him the "Son of God" also. And they said, "cast us into that group of pigs," and Jesus did. Then all of the pigs ran off a cliff. So they got what they deserved. No body to live in. And it is written, "NONE shall come to the Father, but by Me." I hope this helps. Okay. That's enough for now, I hope!!

Much Love Coming Your Way!!

Michael

genuineoriginal
October 2nd, 2015, 07:06 AM
You keep repeating the same dud argument and I will keep correcting you, the man and the woman are both humankind. The Father and the Son are both God.

You say the wife cannot be the husband but the bible says they become one flesh...they are the same class of being...so are the Father and the Son.

I keep repeating the argument because you are failing to grasp your mistake and I am hoping you will understand your mistake if you keep running into it.

Your argument is that two beings are only one being because they are the same class of being.

That is why you keep trying to argue that a wife is the husband.


The opposite is true concerning Pharoah and Joseph when compared to the Son and the Father. Pharoah elevated Joseph to the place of rule over Egypt.

With Christ He was equal with God and shared His glory but humbled Himself to take on the form of a servant.
You seem to be twisting the words of the verses to say the opposite of what they are saying.
Let's look at the verses:

Philippians 2:5-7
5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
Careful readers notice that the verse does not say Jesus started out equal with God, but it does say that Jesus did not think it would be stealing to be like God.
Paul, the Old Testament scholar, is making a comparison with a famous passage in the Old Testament where someone tried to be like God.

Isaiah 14:12-14
12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.
Instead of having the mind of Lucifer and trying to steal the throne of God, Jesus chose to humble Himself instead.
The point Paul is getting at is that we are not to have the mind of Lucifer and try to raise ourselves up, but to have the mind of Jesus and humble ourselves and let God raise us up.

Philippians 2:9
9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:


The bible says equal with God, the bible says one with the Father, the bible says He was with God and He was God.

Handle it.
Here is the problem: the Bible does not say what you claim it says.
The Bible does not say Jesus is equal with God, it says, "thought it not robbery to be equal with God".
The Bible does not just say one with the Father, the Bible says Jesus prayed, "they may be one, even as we are one".
The Bible does not say Jesus was with God and Jesus was God, the Bible says, "the Logos was with God, and the Logos was God"

_____
Logos (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logos) (UK /ˈloʊɡɒs/, /ˈlɒɡɒs/, or US /ˈloʊɡoʊs/; Greek: λόγος, from λέγω lego "I say") is an important term in philosophy, psychology, rhetoric, and religion. Originally a word meaning "a ground", "a plea", "an opinion", "an expectation", "word", "speech", "account", "to reason" it became a technical term in philosophy, beginning with Heraclitus (ca. 535–475 BC), who used the term for a principle of order and knowledge.
_____
God's expectation, opinion, and reasoning was with God from the beginning and is a fundamental part of who God is.
The passage then goes on to say Jesus is the embodiment of God's expectation, opinion, and reasoning.
The passage does not say Jesus is the embodiment of God Himself, only the embodiment of God's Logos.

You worship the Father? how do you do that? you do not know His form...
We are to worship the Father in the manner shown by Jesus, Paul, Peter, and John.
Knowing God's form is unimportant. The pagans were concerned with the form of their gods and make statues to represent them. Our God said not to make any statue to represent Him.

_____
In the year 63 BCE, the Roman general Gnaeus Pompeius Magnus, in the process of conquering Israel and all the surrounding territories, entered the most sacred place in the Jewish temple in Jerusalem. What he found shocked him. For this temple was different in one crucial respect from all other temples.
(source) (http://www.futureofthebook.org/mitchellstephens/holyofholies/1-empty-an-introduction/)
_____



you throw your hands in the air and do a Russian knee dance do you? "look at me I'm worshipping the Father"
Could you provide the chapter and verse for this, I can't find it in my Bible anywhere.
I did find this passage about how to worship God:

John 4:20-23
20 Our fathers worshipped in this mountain; and ye say, that in Jerusalem is the place where men ought to worship.
21 Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father.
22 Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.
23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.

Totton Linnet
October 2nd, 2015, 03:01 PM
Your just arguing for the sake of proving yourself right Gen

But you are wrong

You are the one who brings in two separate people, I said equal with God means He is God, the bible says He is being equal with God humbled Himself.

It is a very simple truth. Jesus said "I and the Father are one" THAT I do not understand neither do you, but you are not satisfied with not understanding...I am. If you have seen Christ you have seen the Father...just accept it.

genuineoriginal
October 2nd, 2015, 03:11 PM
Your just arguing for the sake of proving yourself right Gen

But you are wrong
No, I am arguing to prove that the words used to write the Bible have meaning and shouldn't be ignored for some doctrine that comes from somewhere else.


You are the one who brings in two separate people, I said equal with God means He is God,
Yes, you are the one that makes the false claim that being equal with God means you are God.


the bible says He is being equal with God humbled Himself.
No, the Bible specifically mentions what Jesus thought about the idea of trying to take equality with God by force:

Philippians 2:6 CJB
6 Though he was in the form of God, he did not regard equality with God something to be possessed by force.

genuineoriginal
October 2nd, 2015, 03:12 PM
It is a very simple truth. Jesus said "I and the Father are one"

Can you explain the manner in which Jesus and the Father are one?


John 17:11
11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.


John 17:22
22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:

Totton Linnet
October 2nd, 2015, 04:24 PM
No, I am arguing to prove that the words used to write the Bible have meaning and shouldn't be ignored for some doctrine that comes from somewhere else.


Yes, you are the one that makes the false claim that being equal with God means you are God.


No, the Bible specifically mentions what Jesus thought about the idea of trying to take equality with God by force:

Philippians 2:6 CJB
6 Though he was in the form of God, he did not regard equality with God something to be possessed by force.

Of who else is it said they are equal with God? of who else is it said He was with God in the beginning and He was God? who else could have said "If you have seen Me you have seen the Father"

My statement is that Christ being equal with God means He is God, it is said of no other person.

Nobody else was conceived in the womb of a virgin by the Holy Ghost.

You are not arguing to prove the bible account is true, you are arguing to prove that it is not true.

I am saying that equal with God means He is God.....nobody else is said to be equal with God but Jesus Christ.

The bible does not say Christ needed to "take" equality with God, YOU said that the bible says He was equal with God....it says nothing about Him grasping it.

genuineoriginal
October 2nd, 2015, 04:44 PM
Of who else is it said they are equal with God? of who else is it said He was with God in the beginning and He was God?
The Bible does not actually state either of those things.


My statement is that Christ being equal with God means He is God, it is said of no other person.
It is not even said of Jesus.


You are not arguing to prove the bible account is true, you are arguing to prove that it is not true.
You are not presenting the Bible account, you are presenting something else.

Totton Linnet
October 2nd, 2015, 04:53 PM
Being in the form of God He thought it not robbery to be equal with God


So what was He ? a delusionary? uh...no fancy linguistics please.

genuineoriginal
October 2nd, 2015, 05:19 PM
Being in the form of God He thought it not robbery to be equal with God
Yes, that is what the verse states.


So what was He ?

Matthew 16:16
16 and Simon Peter answering said, `Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.'

Luke 4:41
41 And demons also were coming forth from many, crying out and saying -- `Thou art the Christ, the Son of God;' and rebuking, he did not suffer them to speak, because they knew him to be the Christ.

John 6:69
69 and we have believed, and we have known, that thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.'

John 11:27
27 believest thou this?' she saith to him, `Yes, sir, I have believed that thou art the Christ, the Son of God, who is coming to the world.'

Acts 8:37
37 [And Philip said, `If thou dost believe out of all the heart, it is lawful;' and he answering said, `I believe Jesus Christ to be the Son of God;']

Acts 9:20
20 and immediately in the synagogues he was preaching the Christ, that he is the Son of God.

Totton Linnet
October 2nd, 2015, 06:06 PM
Yes, yes the old trick

Quote a dozens scriptures which do not say He is God...this will [you think] negate those scriptures which say He is.

If the Father is God then the Son begotten of the Father is God too.

RBBI
October 2nd, 2015, 06:22 PM
"Totton", I can tell you've got a pretty good foundation, but I implore you to humble yourself and go to Him and ASK Him to show you the truth of what we've said.

When Paul got to a certain point in his walk, he said he knew nothing but Christ and Him crucified. There was a reason for that. Find out what it was for yourself. Peace and blessings to you

Totton Linnet
October 2nd, 2015, 06:26 PM
"Totton", I can tell you've got a pretty good foundation, but I implore you to humble yourself and go to Him and ASK Him to show you the truth of what we've said.

When Paul got to a certain point in his walk, he said he knew nothing but Christ and Him crucified. There was a reason for that. Find out what it was for yourself. Peace and blessings to you

God bless you


...you are being rather presumptious

RBBI
October 2nd, 2015, 06:38 PM
Hereafter we'll not know Him (or His body) after the flesh, but after the Spirit....

1Mind1Spirit
October 2nd, 2015, 11:49 PM
"Totton", I can tell you've got a pretty good foundation, but I implore you to humble yourself and go to Him and ASK Him to show you the truth of what we've said.

When Paul got to a certain point in his walk, he said he knew nothing but Christ and Him crucified. There was a reason for that. Find out what it was for yourself. Peace and blessings to you

Good advice.

CherubRam
October 3rd, 2015, 12:31 AM
Honestly some of these truths are so extremely simple to understand. There is no need to traverse land and sea to seek out a quirky linguist to teach you that the bible does not say what it so clearly does.

A child can understand it.

Jesus Christ is equal with God, yet humbles Himself to the Father. It just is not possible to be equal with God and not BE God.

The scripture that says he is equal to God is falsified to support trinitarianism. I would give proof, but I do not have access to the info for now.

genuineoriginal
October 3rd, 2015, 02:37 PM
Yes, yes the old trick

Quote a dozens scriptures which do not say He is God...this will [you think] negate those scriptures which say He is.
You asked what Jesus is, I showed you with seven scriptures that claim He is both Christ and the Son of God.
I could have produced dozens more that say one or the other.
You can try to produce seven scriptures that you believe say Jesus is God, but none of them actually say it.

That is the problem you face.

I don't face that problem because all I have to do is believe the testimony of scripture. It doesn't matter if Jesus is God or not and the Bible does not say for sure.


If the Father is God then the Son begotten of the Father is God too.
Are you deliberately trying to change the meaning of the word God every time you use it?
Let's come to agreement on what definition of the word God you are planning on using so we can have a real conversation instead of you continuing to swap the meaning out.

glorydaz
October 3rd, 2015, 05:44 PM
It doesn't matter if Jesus is God or not and the Bible does not say for sure.




Perhaps He hides from those who have more faith in their own obedience than that of the only Righteous ONE. :think:


Isaiah 45:15
Verily thou art a God that hidest thyself, O God of Israel, the Saviour.


Isaiah 43:11
I, even I, am the Lord; and beside me there is no saviour.

Isaiah 45:21
Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the Lord? and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me.

genuineoriginal
October 3rd, 2015, 06:37 PM
Perhaps He hides from those who have more faith in their own obedience than that of the only Righteous ONE. :think:
Obedience is nothing to look down at from your high horse.

Acts 5:32
32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.

Romans 15:18
18 For I will not dare to speak of any of those things which Christ hath not wrought by me, to make the Gentiles obedient, by word and deed,
You should try it.

jamie
October 3rd, 2015, 06:43 PM
Isaiah 45:21
...there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me.


Yes, God is one.

...I in them and You in Me that they may be made perfect in one... (John 17:23 NKJV)

keypurr
October 3rd, 2015, 10:49 PM
You asked what Jesus is, I showed you with seven scriptures that claim He is both Christ and the Son of God.
I could have produced dozens more that say one or the other.
You can try to produce seven scriptures that you believe say Jesus is God, but none of them actually say it.

That is the problem you face.

I don't face that problem because all I have to do is believe the testimony of scripture. It doesn't matter if Jesus is God or not and the Bible does not say for sure.


Are you deliberately trying to change the meaning of the word God every time you use it?
Let's come to agreement on what definition of the word God you are planning on using so we can have a real conversation instead of you continuing to swap the meaning out.

They fail to see that "God" is a position, not a name.

The son of God is the son of God, not God.

The son of the President is not the President.

Angel4Truth
October 3rd, 2015, 11:02 PM
Hebrews 1:8 But of the Son He says, "YOUR THRONE, O GOD, IS FOREVER AND EVER, AND THE RIGHTEOUS SCEPTER IS THE SCEPTER OF HIS KINGDOM.

keypurr
October 3rd, 2015, 11:48 PM
Hebrews 1:8 But of the Son He says, "YOUR THRONE, O GOD, IS FOREVER AND EVER, AND THE RIGHTEOUS SCEPTER IS THE SCEPTER OF HIS KINGDOM.

Suggest you also read verse 9.

"Therefor God, YOUR God"

exminister
October 4th, 2015, 01:00 AM
1Long ago God spoke to our ancestors in many and various ways by the prophets,

2but in these last days he has spoken to us by a Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, through whom he also created the worlds.

3He is the reflection of God’s glory and the exact imprint of God’s very being, and he sustains all things by his powerful word. When he had made purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,

4having become as much superior to angels as the name he has inherited is more excellent than theirs.

5 For to which of the angels did God ever say,
‘You are my Son;
today I have begotten you’?
Or again,
‘I will be his Father,
and he will be my Son’?

6And again, when he brings the firstborn into the world, he says,
‘Let all God’s angels worship him.’

7Of the angels he says,
‘He makes his angels winds,
and his servants flames of fire.’

8But of the Son he (God) says,
‘Your throne, O God, is for ever and ever,
and the righteous sceptre is the sceptre of your kingdom.

9 You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness;
therefore God, your God, has anointed you
with the oil of gladness beyond your companions.’

10And,
‘In the beginning, Lord, you founded the earth,
and the heavens are the work of your hands;

11 they will perish, but you remain;
they will all wear out like clothing;

12 like a cloak you will roll them up,
and like clothing they will be changed.
But you are the same,
and your years will never end.’

13But to which of the angels has he ever said,
‘Sit at my right hand
until I make your enemies a footstool for your feet’?


Who is the Lord in verse 10? It appears to be tied as an "and" to verse 5.

exminister
October 4th, 2015, 01:22 AM
Hebrews 7



1 This ‘King Melchizedek of Salem, priest of the Most High God, met Abraham as he was returning from defeating the kings and blessed him’;

2 and to him Abraham apportioned ‘one-tenth of everything’. His name, in the first place, means ‘king of righteousness’; next he is also king of Salem, that is, ‘king of peace’.

3 Without father, without mother, without genealogy, having neither beginning of days nor end of life, but resembling the Son of God, he remains a priest for ever.


The Son has no beginning of days. Isn't that God?

Totton Linnet
October 4th, 2015, 02:24 AM
You asked what Jesus is, I showed you with seven scriptures that claim He is both Christ and the Son of God.
I could have produced dozens more that say one or the other.
You can try to produce seven scriptures that you believe say Jesus is God, but none of them actually say it.

That is the problem you face.

I don't face that problem because all I have to do is believe the testimony of scripture. It doesn't matter if Jesus is God or not and the Bible does not say for sure.


Are you deliberately trying to change the meaning of the word God every time you use it?
Let's come to agreement on what definition of the word God you are planning on using so we can have a real conversation instead of you continuing to swap the meaning out.

No the problem you face is the scripture which declares The Logos was with God in the beginning and was God, He made everything made and became flesh and dwelled among us.

THAT is your problem.

I hold that whatever the Father is the Son must be also, that is a natural truth as well as a spiritual truth so the scriptures verily proclaim Christ's deity.....moreover it is the rock upon which has builded His church.

glorydaz
October 4th, 2015, 11:37 AM
Obedience is nothing to look down at from your high horse.

Acts 5:32
32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.

Romans 15:18
18 For I will not dare to speak of any of those things which Christ hath not wrought by me, to make the Gentiles obedient, by word and deed,
You should try it.

My affections are set on things above.....if you look back enough you just might turn into a pillar of salt. :chuckle:

glorydaz
October 4th, 2015, 11:41 AM
No the problem you face is the scripture which declares The Logos was with God in the beginning and was God, He made everything made and became flesh and dwelled among us.

THAT is your problem.

They're still arguing that Jesus Christ is not the Word of God? :nono:


Revelation 19:13
And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.


I hold that whatever the Father is the Son must be also, that is a natural truth as well as a spiritual truth so the scriptures verily proclaim Christ's deity.....moreover it is the rock upon which has builded His church.

:thumb:

Angel4Truth
October 4th, 2015, 11:48 AM
They're still arguing that Jesus Christ is not the Word of God? :nono:


Revelation 19:13
And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.



:thumb:

Amen! Since His name is called the word of God, then:

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

this must be saying Jesus Christ is God.

Totton Linnet
October 4th, 2015, 03:50 PM
John stitches them up every which way they turn, it is as if he knew their arguments and sought to cut them out.

HE was in the beginning He was with God and was God, He was in the world and the world was made by Him but the world knew Him not.

glorydaz
October 4th, 2015, 03:51 PM
Amen! Since His name is called the word of God, then:

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

this must be saying Jesus Christ is God.

That's certainly what John called Him. :)

That Word that was God became flesh and dwelt among us. How many guesses does one need to figure that out? ;)

glorydaz
October 4th, 2015, 03:53 PM
John stitches them up every which way they turn, it is as if he knew their arguments and sought to cut them out.

HE was in the beginning He was with God and was God, He was in the world and the world was made by Him but the world knew Him not.

Yep. :thumb:

genuineoriginal
October 4th, 2015, 11:16 PM
No the problem you face is the scripture which declares The Logos was with God in the beginning and was God, He made everything made and became flesh and dwelled among us.
Logos had a well known meaning when the Gospel of John was written.

_____
Logos (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logos) (UK /ˈloʊɡɒs/, /ˈlɒɡɒs/, or US /ˈloʊɡoʊs/; Greek: λόγος, from λέγω lego "I say") is an important term in philosophy, psychology, rhetoric, and religion. Originally a word meaning "a ground", "a plea", "an opinion", "an expectation", "word", "speech", "account", "to reason" it became a technical term in philosophy, beginning with Heraclitus (ca. 535–475 BC), who used the term for a principle of order and knowledge.
_____

THAT is your problem.
I see no problem at all for me.
I see a big problem for anyone that wants to deny the meaning of the word as it was used by the writer.


I hold that whatever the Father is the Son must be also, that is a natural truth as well as a spiritual truth so the scriptures verily proclaim Christ's deity
Yes, the scriptures do claim that Jesus possesses the divine nature and the godhead dwells within Him.
There is no problem with that.
The only time there is a problem is when you try to claim that the Bible says the Father and the Son are the same being.
It does not.


.....moreover it is the rock upon which has builded His church.
Read the verse again.

Matthew 16:16-18
16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.
18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

Please notice that Peter did not say Jesus is "the living God," but instead Peter said Jesus is "the Son of the living God."

There is a huge difference in those two phrases.
The rock that the church was built on is that Jesus is the Son of God.

Please pay more attention to the actual words that were inspired by the Holy Spirit.

genuineoriginal
October 4th, 2015, 11:18 PM
My affections are set on things above
If they were really set on things above, you wouldn't spend so much time trying to judge someone else's servant. (Romans 14:4).

Greg Jennings
October 4th, 2015, 11:22 PM
Amen! Since His name is called the word of God, then:

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

this must be saying Jesus Christ is God.

Mark 13:28-32

"Now learn the parable from the fig tree: when its branch has already become tender and puts forth its leaves, you know that summer is near. "Even so, you too, when you see these things happening, recognize that He is near, right at the door. "Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place. "Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will not pass away. "But of that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone.

A4T,

if God and Jesus are the exact same being, then why does Jesus not know when the day of the second coming is but "the Father alone" does?

genuineoriginal
October 4th, 2015, 11:25 PM
They're still arguing that Jesus Christ is not the Word of God? :nono:


Revelation 19:13
And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

:thumb:
No one is arguing that Jesus Christ is not the Word of God.
The only disagreement is in what the word λόγος logos means.


λόγος logos
I.of speech
__A.a word, uttered by a living voice, embodies a conception or idea
__B.what someone has said
____i.a word
____ii.the sayings of God
____iii.decree, mandate or order
____iv.of the moral precepts given by God
____v.Old Testament prophecy given by the prophets
____vi.what is declared, a thought, declaration, aphorism, a weighty saying, a dictum, a maxim
__C.discourse
____i.the act of speaking, speech
____ii.the faculty of speech, skill and practice in speaking
____iii.a kind or style of speaking
____iv.a continuous speaking discourse - instruction
__D.doctrine, teaching
__E.anything reported in speech; a narration, narrative
__F.matter under discussion, thing spoken of, affair, a matter in dispute, case, suit at law
__G.the thing spoken of or talked about; event, deed
II.its use as respect to the MIND alone
__A.reason, the mental faculty of thinking, meditating, reasoning, calculating
__B.account, i.e. regard, consideration
__C.account, i.e. reckoning, score
__D.account, i.e. answer or explanation in reference to judgment
__E.relation, i.e. with whom as judge we stand in relation
____i.reason would
__F.reason, cause, ground

keypurr
October 4th, 2015, 11:38 PM
The logos is the express image, the spirit son of God. Not Jesus who was a man.

Lazy afternoon
October 5th, 2015, 01:50 AM
The logos is the express image, the spirit son of God. Not Jesus who was a man.

God has made a man in His image, through whom God will make many men in the same image.

LA

Totton Linnet
October 5th, 2015, 02:08 AM
The logos is the express image, the spirit son of God. Not Jesus who was a man.

Oh stop with the twaddle, the Logos became flesh and dwelt among us.

Totton Linnet
October 5th, 2015, 02:11 AM
No one is arguing that Jesus Christ is not the Word of God.
The only disagreement is in what the word λόγος logos means.


λόγος logos
I.of speech
__A.a word, uttered by a living voice, embodies a conception or idea
__B.what someone has said
____i.a word
____ii.the sayings of God
____iii.decree, mandate or order
____iv.of the moral precepts given by God
____v.Old Testament prophecy given by the prophets
____vi.what is declared, a thought, declaration, aphorism, a weighty saying, a dictum, a maxim
__C.discourse
____i.the act of speaking, speech
____ii.the faculty of speech, skill and practice in speaking
____iii.a kind or style of speaking
____iv.a continuous speaking discourse - instruction
__D.doctrine, teaching
__E.anything reported in speech; a narration, narrative
__F.matter under discussion, thing spoken of, affair, a matter in dispute, case, suit at law
__G.the thing spoken of or talked about; event, deed
II.its use as respect to the MIND alone
__A.reason, the mental faculty of thinking, meditating, reasoning, calculating
__B.account, i.e. regard, consideration
__C.account, i.e. reckoning, score
__D.account, i.e. answer or explanation in reference to judgment
__E.relation, i.e. with whom as judge we stand in relation
____i.reason would
__F.reason, cause, ground

It is twaddle for whatever your fancy linguists say the Logos became flesh and dwelled among us. And John says HE.

RBBI
October 5th, 2015, 05:53 AM
Heb 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

What we see has come about because of the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, INCLUDING HIS. Peace

genuineoriginal
October 5th, 2015, 07:40 AM
It is twaddle for whatever your fancy linguists say
The "fancy linguists" is Joseph Henry Thayer (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Henry_Thayer) and the words came from Thayer's Greek Lexicon

jamie
October 5th, 2015, 07:54 AM
The logos is the express image, the spirit son of God. Not Jesus who was a man.


In the Greek the word "image" refers to character. Are you saying Jesus did not reflect God's character?

keypurr
October 5th, 2015, 09:14 AM
In the Greek the word "image" refers to character. Are you saying Jesus did not reflect God's character?


No, but the express image is not a man as Jesus was. It means a created exact copy of the Father in every way. God is a spirit, his express image is a spirit. Understand that and you will truly see who the Son is that God sent. Christ was IN Jesus, Jesus was anointed with Christ. Acts 10:38 the POWER was given to the flesh son.

keypurr
October 5th, 2015, 11:49 AM
I do not trust the Greek to English translations much any more.

exminister
October 5th, 2015, 01:37 PM
Hebrews 7



1 This ‘King Melchizedek of Salem, priest of the Most High God, met Abraham as he was returning from defeating the kings and blessed him’;

2 and to him Abraham apportioned ‘one-tenth of everything’. His name, in the first place, means ‘king of righteousness’; next he is also king of Salem, that is, ‘king of peace’.

3 Without father, without mother, without genealogy, having neither beginning of days nor end of life, but resembling the Son of God, he remains a priest for ever.


Keypurr, genuine,
The Son has no beginning of days. Isn't that God?

exminister
October 5th, 2015, 01:53 PM
They're still arguing that Jesus Christ is not the Word of God? :nono:


Revelation 19:13
And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.



:thumb:

John 1 - the Word was God and revelation 19 - Jesus is the Word of God does tie a pretty bow on it.

John 1
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Revelation 19
Then I saw heaven opened, and there was a white horse! Its rider is called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he judges and makes war. His eyes are like a flame of fire, and on his head are many diadems; and he has a name inscribed that no one knows but himself. He is clothed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is called The Word of God. And the armies of heaven, wearing fine linen, white and pure, were following him on white horses. From his mouth comes a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations, and he will rule them with a rod of iron; he will tread the wine press of the fury of the wrath of God the Almighty. On his robe and on his thigh he has a name inscribed, ‘King of kings and Lord of lords’.

Angel4Truth
October 5th, 2015, 03:59 PM
Mark 13:28-32

"Now learn the parable from the fig tree: when its branch has already become tender and puts forth its leaves, you know that summer is near. "Even so, you too, when you see these things happening, recognize that He is near, right at the door. "Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place. "Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will not pass away. "But of that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone.

A4T,

if God and Jesus are the exact same being, then why does Jesus not know when the day of the second coming is but "the Father alone" does?

1) I never said they were the same being.

2) Christ emptied himself to walk as we do, as a man, and as such did so in perfect obedience to the Father -Phillipians 2:6-8 6 who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7 but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men. 8 Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.…

genuineoriginal
October 5th, 2015, 04:00 PM
Hebrews 7



Keypurr, genuine,
The Son has no beginning of days. Isn't that God?


Psalm 2:7
7 I will declare the decree: the Lord hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.

genuineoriginal
October 5th, 2015, 04:01 PM
John 1 - the Word was God and revelation 19 - Jesus is the Word of God does tie a pretty bow on it.

John 1
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Revelation 19
Then I saw heaven opened, and there was a white horse! Its rider is called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he judges and makes war. His eyes are like a flame of fire, and on his head are many diadems; and he has a name inscribed that no one knows but himself. He is clothed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is called The Word of God. And the armies of heaven, wearing fine linen, white and pure, were following him on white horses. From his mouth comes a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations, and he will rule them with a rod of iron; he will tread the wine press of the fury of the wrath of God the Almighty. On his robe and on his thigh he has a name inscribed, ‘King of kings and Lord of lords’.


Isaiah 55:11
11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.

Matthew 4:4
4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

jamie
October 5th, 2015, 04:32 PM
I do not trust the Greek to English translations much any more.


As far as I can tell all of your quotations have been in English. Why do you quote biblical verses in English if you don't believe English translations?

jamie
October 5th, 2015, 04:42 PM
Christ was IN Jesus, Jesus was anointed with Christ.


Matthew says that after Jesus was baptized he was then anointed with the Spirit of God.


When He had been baptized, Jesus came up immediately from the water and behold, the heavens were opened to Him and He saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and alighting upon Him. (Matthew 3:16 NKJV)

keypurr
October 5th, 2015, 05:29 PM
Hebrews 7







Keypurr, genuine,

The Son has no beginning of days. Isn't that God?


I do not see the words Christ in this verse friend.
But if it is he was created before they were any days.

keypurr
October 5th, 2015, 05:32 PM
John 1 - the Word was God and revelation 19 - Jesus is the Word of God does tie a pretty bow on it.



John 1

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.



Revelation 19

Then I saw heaven opened, and there was a white horse! Its rider is called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he judges and makes war. His eyes are like a flame of fire, and on his head are many diadems; and he has a name inscribed that no one knows but himself. He is clothed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is called The Word of God. And the armies of heaven, wearing fine linen, white and pure, were following him on white horses. From his mouth comes a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations, and he will rule them with a rod of iron; he will tread the wine press of the fury of the wrath of God the Almighty. On his robe and on his thigh he has a name inscribed, ‘King of kings and Lord of lords’.


I do not see the "word of God" as a man.

I see the "word" as the spiritual son (express image) of the Father.

exminister
October 5th, 2015, 06:45 PM
I do not see the "word of God" as a man.

I see the "word" as the spiritual son (express image) of the Father.

John 1 clearly says the Word was God



Revelation 19

Then I saw heaven opened, and there was a white horse! Its rider is called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he judges and makes war. His eyes are like a flame of fire, and on his head are many diadems; and he has a name inscribed that no one knows but himself. He is clothed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is called The Word of God. And the armies of heaven, wearing fine linen, white and pure, were following him on white horses. From his mouth comes a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations, and he will rule them with a rod of iron; he will tread the wine press of the fury of the wrath of God the Almighty. On his robe and on his thigh he has a name inscribed, ‘King of kings and Lord of lords’.


Revelation 19 calls this being the Word of God. Whose robe would be dropped in blood? Wasn't Jesus crucified? Who is the King of Kings and Lord of Lords?

exminister
October 5th, 2015, 06:49 PM
I do not see the words Christ in this verse friend.
But if it is he was created before they were any days.

Isn't that a modern Einsteinium interpretation?
That was not a concept in those days. With no beginning of days would mean infinite.

keypurr
October 5th, 2015, 09:50 PM
Isn't that a modern Einsteinium interpretation?
That was not a concept in those days. With no beginning of days would mean infinite.

I question if Mel is Christ.

jamie
October 5th, 2015, 10:07 PM
I question if Mel is Christ.


It was witnessed in the first century that Melchizedek lives.


Here mortal men receive tithes, but there he receives them, of whom it is witnessed that he lives. (Hebrews 7:8 NKJV)

Melchizedek is contrasted with mortal men.

Totton Linnet
October 6th, 2015, 01:13 PM
Logos had a well known meaning when the Gospel of John was written.

_____
Logos (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logos) (UK /ˈloʊɡɒs/, /ˈlɒɡɒs/, or US /ˈloʊɡoʊs/; Greek: λόγος, from λέγω lego "I say") is an important term in philosophy, psychology, rhetoric, and religion. Originally a word meaning "a ground", "a plea", "an opinion", "an expectation", "word", "speech", "account", "to reason" it became a technical term in philosophy, beginning with Heraclitus (ca. 535–475 BC), who used the term for a principle of order and knowledge.
_____

I see no problem at all for me.
I see a big problem for anyone that wants to deny the meaning of the word as it was used by the writer.


Yes, the scriptures do claim that Jesus possesses the divine nature and the godhead dwells within Him.
There is no problem with that.
The only time there is a problem is when you try to claim that the Bible says the Father and the Son are the same being.
It does not.


Read the verse again.

Matthew 16:16-18
16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.
18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

Please notice that Peter did not say Jesus is "the living God," but instead Peter said Jesus is "the Son of the living God."

There is a huge difference in those two phrases.
The rock that the church was built on is that Jesus is the Son of God.

Please pay more attention to the actual words that were inspired by the Holy Spirit.

It does not matter what meaning was had for the Logos, the actual word that were inspired [with a view to stitch you up] is

HE was in the beginning with God and HE was God and HE made all things and the Logos became flesh and blood and dwelled among us.

Put that in your linguistic pipe and smoke it.

RBBI
October 6th, 2015, 01:41 PM
John 1 clearly says the Word was God



Revelation 19 calls this being the Word of God. Whose robe would be dropped in blood? Wasn't Jesus crucified? Who is the King of Kings and Lord of Lords?

The flesh man Yeshua being the robe of the Spirit man, would be dipped in blood. Peace

Totton Linnet
October 6th, 2015, 01:50 PM
The "fancy linguists" is Joseph Henry Thayer (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Henry_Thayer) and the words came from Thayer's Greek Lexicon

Joseph-Henry-Thayer said nothing about the Logos becoming flesh and dwelling among us. Or His being God


...try again

Bright Raven
October 6th, 2015, 02:06 PM
I question if Mel is Christ.

I don't know what you are saying. :idunno:

genuineoriginal
October 6th, 2015, 03:07 PM
It does not matter what meaning was had for the Logos, the actual word that were inspired [with a view to stitch you up] is

HE was in the beginning with God and HE was God and HE made all things and the Logos became flesh and blood and dwelled among us.

You don't know what you are talking about.

John 1:3-4
3 All things were made by αὐτός; and without αὐτός was not any thing made that was made.
4 In αὐτός was life; and the life was the light of men.

αὐτός autos Strongs G846 (https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G846&t=KJV)
The KJV translates Strongs G846 in the following manner: him (1,952x), his (1,084x), their (318x), he (252x), her (242x), they (121x), same (80x), himself (58x), misc (1,678x).

If the word αὐτός can be translated as "her" 242 times, then it should be obvious that we can't rely on the word αὐτός having been translated as "him" in that verse.

genuineoriginal
October 6th, 2015, 03:09 PM
Joseph-Henry-Thayer said nothing about the Logos becoming flesh and dwelling among us. Or His being God
You should try reading what he wrote instead of making up things about someone you don't even know about.

https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G3056&t=KJV

Totton Linnet
October 6th, 2015, 05:38 PM
You don't know what you are talking about.

John 1:3-4
3 All things were made by αὐτός; and without αὐτός was not any thing made that was made.
4 In αὐτός was life; and the life was the light of men.

αὐτός autos Strongs G846 (https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G846&t=KJV)
The KJV translates Strongs G846 in the following manner: him (1,952x), his (1,084x), their (318x), he (252x), her (242x), they (121x), same (80x), himself (58x), misc (1,678x).

If the word αὐτός can be translated as "her" 242 times, then it should be obvious that we can't rely on the word αὐτός having been translated as "him" in that verse.

Twaddle, John piles it on

He was with God, He was God, He was in the world , the world was made by Him...what was that some kind of blue print plan?

In seeking to be wise you people make yourselves foolish

Lazy afternoon
October 6th, 2015, 06:17 PM
Twaddle, John piles it on

He was with God, He was God, He was in the world , the world was made by Him...what was that some kind of blue print plan?

In seeking to be wise you people make yourselves foolish

No wonder you think the Jews are Gods people according to the flesh.

The true Christian is the true Jew.

There are none other who are the apple of His eye.

Every believer in Christ of the Jews at the first, were Christians.

Do not think churches and flesh, we can leave that for catholics and flesh jews to fight over.



LA

keypurr
October 6th, 2015, 07:11 PM
It was witnessed in the first century that Melchizedek lives.


Here mortal men receive tithes, but there he receives them, of whom it is witnessed that he lives. (Hebrews 7:8 NKJV)

Melchizedek is contrasted with mortal men.

Who really is Mel? He was king of Salem, he was high priest, but what do we really know about him?

jamie
October 6th, 2015, 10:33 PM
Who really is Mel? He was king of Salem...


He was more than the king of Salem. The term "malkiy tsedek" means King of Righteousness.


...first being translated “king of righteousness,” and then also king of Salem, meaning “king of peace...” (Hebrews 7:2 NKJV)

exminister
October 7th, 2015, 02:50 AM
Who really is Mel? He was king of Salem, he was high priest, but what do we really know about him?



Hebrews 7



1 This ‘King Melchizedek of Salem, priest of the Most High God, met Abraham as he was returning from defeating the kings and blessed him’;

2 and to him Abraham apportioned ‘one-tenth of everything’. His name, in the first place, means ‘king of righteousness’; next he is also king of Salem, that is, ‘king of peace’.

3 Without father, without mother, without genealogy, having neither beginning of days nor end of life, but resembling the Son of God, he remains a priest for ever.


This is all we need to know about 'Mel' because the author of Hebrews is using Mel as an analogy to the Son of God. He clearly identifies what we need to know. In fact the author is using the lack of known details to his advantage.

So please consider what attributes the author has chosen and the name he chose-the Son of God.

genuineoriginal
October 7th, 2015, 08:00 AM
Twaddle, John piles it on

He was with God, He was God, He was in the world , the world was made by Him...what was that some kind of blue print plan?
You could easily replace the word "He" in those verses with the word "It", "She", or "They" and still have a valid English translation of the Greek in that passage.


In seeking to be wise you people make yourselves foolish
The Jews have elevated minor points of the Torah into major life changing doctrines.
They take a couple of verses that say you are not to "seethe a kid in its mother's milk" into a prohibition against eating any kind of meat with any kind of dairy to the point that they even use two sets of dishes to keep them apart.
That is foolishness.

Many Christians have elevated a minor points in the Gospel of John into major doctrines.
They concentrate so hard on trying to make those points prove the doctrine of the Trinity that they completely miss out on the real reason for the writing of the Gospel.
That is also foolishness.


John 20:31
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.
Believe that Jesus is the Messiah (Christ), the Son of God.
There is no other belief that you need in order to have life through His name.

exminister
October 7th, 2015, 02:38 PM
You are correct Genuine about the Greek


The translation below does not contain a pronoun like He.

John 1
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

However Revelation 19 does use a pronoun "His name"

Revelation 19
Then I saw heaven opened, and there was a white horse! Its rider is called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he judges and makes war. His eyes are like a flame of fire, and on his head are many diadems; and he has a name inscribed that no one knows but himself. He is clothed in a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God. And the armies of heaven, wearing fine linen, white and pure, were following him on white horses. From his mouth comes a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations, and he will rule them with a rod of iron; he will tread the wine press of the fury of the wrath of God the Almighty. On his robe and on his thigh he has a name inscribed, ‘King of kings and Lord of lords’.

Click on Greek option - GRK
http://biblehub.com/text/revelation/19-13.htm


αὐτοῦ of him

Lazy afternoon
October 7th, 2015, 02:43 PM
You could easily replace the word "He" in those verses with the word "It", "She", or "They" and still have a valid English translation of the Greek in that passage.


The Jews have elevated minor points of the Torah into major life changing doctrines.
They take a couple of verses that say you are not to "seethe a kid in its mother's milk" into a prohibition against eating any kind of meat with any kind of dairy to the point that they even use two sets of dishes to keep them apart.
That is foolishness.

Many Christians have elevated a minor points in the Gospel of John into major doctrines.
They concentrate so hard on trying to make those points prove the doctrine of the Trinity that they completely miss out on the real reason for the writing of the Gospel.
That is also foolishness.


John 20:31
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.
Believe that Jesus is the Messiah (Christ), the Son of God.
There is no other belief that you need in order to have life through His name.

Yes and yes.

The Jesus who is the son of God is the man.

not some preexistent spirit.

LA

Totton Linnet
October 8th, 2015, 03:09 AM
You could easily replace the word "He" in those verses with the word "It", "She", or "They" and still have a valid English translation of the Greek in that passage.


The Jews have elevated minor points of the Torah into major life changing doctrines.
They take a couple of verses that say you are not to "seethe a kid in its mother's milk" into a prohibition against eating any kind of meat with any kind of dairy to the point that they even use two sets of dishes to keep them apart.
That is foolishness.

Many Christians have elevated a minor points in the Gospel of John into major doctrines.
They concentrate so hard on trying to make those points prove the doctrine of the Trinity that they completely miss out on the real reason for the writing of the Gospel.
That is also foolishness.


John 20:31
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.
Believe that Jesus is the Messiah (Christ), the Son of God.
There is no other belief that you need in order to have life through His name.

You do not believe He is God's Son, you believe He is Mary's son.

It doesn't matter what your fancy linguist says...the Logos who was God became flesh and dwelt among us...that totally negates your point.

Lazy afternoon
October 8th, 2015, 04:08 AM
You do not believe He is God's Son, you believe He is Mary's son.

It doesn't matter what your fancy linguist says...the Logos who was God became flesh and dwelt among us...that totally negates your point.

Do you not believe the Logos becomes flesh as us?

2Co 3:18 But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.

Could it be that you are eating and drinking from the wrong source, and taken the same path of the religious dead.

Do you hear Gods voice, or are you like many here who never drank from Christ in the first place, as they do not know what it is to do so, but you the Pentecostal should know better.

LA

genuineoriginal
October 8th, 2015, 05:23 AM
You do not believe He is God's Son
No, I believe Jesus is the Son of God.
You are the one that doesn't want to admit that Jesus is the Son of God.


It doesn't matter what your fancy linguist says...the Logos who was God became flesh and dwelt among us...that totally negates your point.
Actually, that proves my point.
The Logos, God's expectation, became flesh.
Jesus, the only begotten Son of God, in whom God was well pleased, was the physical manifestation of everything God expected from His creation of man.

Totton Linnet
October 8th, 2015, 02:30 PM
No, I believe Jesus is the Son of God.
You are the one that doesn't want to admit that Jesus is the Son of God.


Actually, that proves my point.
The Logos, God's expectation, became flesh.
Jesus, the only begotten Son of God, in whom God was well pleased, was the physical manifestation of everything God expected from His creation of man.

John stitches you up every which way you turn

The Logos was with God in the beginning and the Logos was God.

Isn't it a pity for you that John specifically says with God and He was God.

Then darn it he says it again, only this time he says HE was in the beginning with God
HE made everything that was made
HE became flesh and blood and dwelt among us.

John KNOWS you, he KNOWS all your arguments and he is there to counter every one of them.

genuineoriginal
October 8th, 2015, 02:42 PM
Then darn it he says it again, only this time he says HE was in the beginning with God
HE made everything that was made
HE became flesh and blood and dwelt among us.
Your argument fails in the original language.
The word you rely on, "HE", was added by the translators in the verses you are using to prove your point.
This is a fact.

Totton Linnet
October 8th, 2015, 03:01 PM
Your argument fails in the original language.
The word you rely on, "HE", was added by the translators in the verses you are using to prove your point.
This is a fact.

He was in the world and the world was made by Him but the world knew Him.

You folks do yourselves no credit the more you haggle these points, we must doubt your integrity.

genuineoriginal
October 8th, 2015, 03:45 PM
He was in the world and the world was made by Him but the world knew Him.

You folks do yourselves no credit the more you haggle these points, we must doubt your integrity.
Try another tactic, since you are haggling points that have been proven to have no substance, so we have no reason to believe you have integrity.

Here is the verse in the Greek:
ἐν τῷ κόσμῳ ἦν καὶ ὁ κόσμος δι᾽ αὐτοῦ ἐγένετο καὶ ὁ κόσμος αὐτὸν οὐκ ἔγνω

The words highlighted are the ones translated using "He".
Here are the definitions of those words:

ἦν
I was, etc.

αὐτοῦ αὐτὸν
himself, herself, themselves, itself
he, she, it
the same