PDA

View Full Version : Justification by Faith Alone



Robert Pate
September 26th, 2015, 03:59 PM
We are justified by faith alone because we are justified by Christ alone.

"To declare, I say, at this time HIS righteousness: that he might be just and the JUSTIFIER OF HIM that believes in Jesus" Romans 3:26.

Jesus justifies the ungodly. "But to him that does NO WORKS, but believes on him that justifies the ungody, his faith is counted for righteousness, Romans 4:5.

Justification takes place totally and completely outside of us. We had nothing, absolutly nothing to do with our salvation or our justification. All that God asks us to do is to believe on his Son Jesus Christ, Plus nothing.

The reason that we are justified by faith alone, is because Jesus in our name and on our behalf has offered to God the Father a life of perfect obedience to his Holy Law. It was his life that was lived for our justification.

That was not enough. Something had to be done about our sins. "For he has made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin, that we might be made the righteousness of God in him" 2 Corinthians 5:21. Jesus in our name and on our behalf becomes our sin bearer. Not only for our sins but the sins of the whole world, 1 John 2:2.

God now sees ALL THINGS in his Son Jesus Christ. Jesus is God's new Adam and our new humanity, 2 Corinthians 5:17. All that have come to Christ as repentant sinners to be saved by Christ are in Christ. They have been sealed with the Holy Spirit, Ephesians 1:13 and are in Christ and Christ is in heaven, Colossians 3:3.

What does all of this mean? It means that salvation is by faith and by faith alone. It also means that all religions that are trying to be saved either by works, predestination, or whatever are false.

Cruciform
September 26th, 2015, 05:17 PM
We are justified by faith alone.
This (http://scripturecatholic.com/justification.html) is what Scripture actually teaches about justification.

End of thread.

jamie
September 26th, 2015, 05:34 PM
We had nothing, absolutly nothing to do with our salvation...


Paul disagrees. Salvation is worked out through obedience.


Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling... (Philippians 2:12 NKJV)

Nanja
September 26th, 2015, 06:17 PM
What does all of this mean? It means that salvation is by faith and by faith alone. It also means that all religions that are trying to be saved either by works, predestination, or whatever are false.


False religion teaches that man must make the decision to become saved, forcing God's Hand by his/her own will.

But no man can come to Christ by his own faith; in an unregenerate state Rom. 8:7-8.

However, those Christ died for John 10:11. 15, Father draws them John 6:44;
which is an inward impelling of the Spirit to be led of Him:

Rom. 8:14
For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

And no man can predestinate himself to Salvation. But the scriptures bear witness to the fact that
God had predestinated some to be His Adopted Sons Eph. 1:4-5 to Salvation, without any
intervention of man, exclusively by His Grace, before the world began 2 Tim. 1:9.

~~~~~

heir
September 26th, 2015, 06:39 PM
We are justified by faith alone because we are justified by Christ alone.I hope that those here realize, that it is by the faith of Jesus Christ that we are justified!

Galatians 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

lukecash12
September 26th, 2015, 07:01 PM
This (http://scripturecatholic.com/justification.html) is what Scripture actually teaches about justification.

End of thread.

Or the very beginning of the thread. Linkwarz doesn't suffice as a logical case for Catholicism being right about both faith and works as a justification. My counter to that would be along the lines that Roman Catholics have confused repentance for penance, and hence have involved good works (penance) in justification.

Let us worship with music as we spend time thinking about the Lord:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TfMAbgNr3cI

Repentance, or metanoeo in the Greek, is a compound word indicating both "mind" and "change towards". So what we have is not a behavioral change, but an internal change. There are just a couple of places that show explicit Greek in the NT and call for both repentance and faith as the condition of salvation. In several other areas they are separately given as the condition of salvation. This makes it a hermeneutic necessity to consider the two as simultaneous parts of the same event, that metanoeo (which we must note on a linguistic level as a directional word) is occurring towards the pistis/faith of Jesus.

But before we can assess any of this, we need to discuss the meaning of sin and the atonement. First I'd like to lay out on a basic level what my perspective looks like, in order to have a frame of reference as we get into more detailed hermeneutic discussion.

It is a bit lengthy so I've divided it into two parts:

Part 1


The issue of sin-

In the story of Adam and Eve, an emotional detail is often taken for granted that is key for understanding what exactly sin is and what sin feels like on God's end, found in the very start of the Bible. When they, His first great creations, succumb to the erroneous idea that they themselves can become something more, something like God, they do something as simple as eating fruit.

It has nothing to do with what they've physically done, though, nothing like the basic emotional repulsion of our stereotype as Christians, that sins like engaging in sexual immorality or hurting someone is "icky" or "ugly"; what it has everything to do with is that something in their mental nature has changed, and the action was little more than a symbol, a side effect of something I find much more emotionally disturbing. It is something that grieves me personally quite a bit more than "icky", "ugly", or "I hate that person, either that or I hate what they're doing" (btw, I'm not trying to describe you guys at all with this bit, just woolgathering about some prevailing attitudes).

What I despise is what has internally happened to humanity and what they were deprived of; of course that isn't nearly as important as how much I despise the emotional consequences on God's end.

Upon God's return He asks: "Where are you?" It is imperative to dwell on this moment because at this point God is having His first experience of separation.

We have to ask ourselves what exactly He is being separated from. What is God getting out of all of this in the first place? This is His special creation that is capable of asking questions, of having a theory of mind and dominating his/her immediate environment to the point of possessing responsibility, of being able to practice jurisprudence. While such jurisprudence may have fallen into a sad state at this point, at first it was marvelous. But what's more this thing adores what it sees, it wants to name things and learn about them. So the most lovely, most interesting thing in all of existence, the One that conceived of existence in the first place is finally able to have a sounding board for His thoughts.

And now something has happened, some action that disagrees with this thing's God gifted nature and it has hidden itself. Of course, compared to God it is naive and He knows exactly where it is hiding, but there is a break in the communication with that special God gifted part within them, an intellectual and emotional connection has been severed. In a manner of speaking God already feels hidden from them, and they Him.

Adam and Eve have arrived at the thought that they are not exactly alike to God (correct), but they should be (obviously incorrect), and for reasons they can't explain they are ashamed of what has happened. Maybe they now realize to some extent at this point that there is an essential likeness they have to Him, but by their very nature as it compares to His they can't think or do things on the same scale, so in doing what they've done they have driven a wedge of confusion into the issue; now all of a sudden they feel even less alike to Him. The accessibility is severed.

So, now that God has asked the first of His two most anguishing rhetorical questions, we proceed to contemplate the importance of the second question.

The issue of the atonement-

There is now an inconceivable avalanche of this sensation for God as He only knows how long the story takes, and because He knows of no time boundaries on Himself (time being something conceived of within His mind), there is torrential anguish to be had as He is painstakingly aware of all of the sin that happened, is happening, and will happen. But God was aware of this in an inscrutable period, if it can be understood as a "period" at all, called eternity past. He has predetermined the atonement that will solve this problem to His satisfaction.

What is the atonement? Yes, a typical answer would be the crucifixion, but what is it really? God has assumed responsibility for something He isn't even personally responsible for, and has decided that He will experience the entire punishment, a reasonable punishment in light of the kind of pain incurred, all Himself in order that He can be satisfied coming into a relationship with as much of His beloved creations as He can. Even contemplating at all, on the feeble level of which I am capable what this atonement involved for Him, gives me some idea of how much pleasure He takes in the spiritual results on the other end. He considered it worth it after all.

There is something in His nature that cries out this sentiment: "Someone must fully reckon and then experience all of the fallout anguish involved with this, in order for Me to be satisfied." It goes without saying that only He would be capable of doing that in the first place, so He was the sole qualified volunteer.

For our special benefit, He arranged that His own experience with death would be by crucifixion. It must be emphasized that an experience as meager as physical suffering, however bothersome it may be to us, is truly a triviality for a being like God during the atonement. The emotional, as opposed to physical, pain cannot remotely be mutually reckoned.

So why this particular type of execution? Crucifixion under the Roman empire was actually a public shaming ritual, where those whom the people deemed "low lives" were often marred beyond recognition, eventually covered in their own excrement as involuntary bodily functions occur during the process, and generally dehumanized in a number of unseemly ways. What more appropriate ritual for the benefit of our comprehension then, as the very thing that separated us from God was a dehumanizing of self?

Probably a great majority of Christians tend to think about the physical and sheer emotional pain involved here, but the primary end here was experiencing emotional pain and it would not be a simple kind of emotional pain at all. As the Scriptures record, He laid the sins of the world on Himself through His human form (the incredible quagmire that is Trinitarian theology and other concepts of the Godhead, has no topical space to be addressed here), so what we are examining right now is the point when God experienced every agonizing consequence of all of the sins combined, in the space of a few hours.

So far as I can meagerly comprehend, He dealt with the alienating, self loathing, manic depression that comes with the essential human crisis, which is at it's core the sensation of feeling separated, feeling insecure and little more than an animal, examining the consequences brought upon others- including God of course- in retrospect and feeling shame, and so on.

At this particular point He asks the most terrible rhetorical question, one that is emotionally difficult for me to read when I come across it: "My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?" He experienced the incomprehensibly horrible sensation of complete separation, Himself.

lukecash12
September 26th, 2015, 07:02 PM
Part 2


*Limited atonement. This is the kind of atonement where Jesus doesn't pay for the sins of the world. He only pays for the sins of the elect.
*Unlimited atonement. Jesus does pay for the sins of the world. The habitual use of the Greek word kosmos I believe makes this conclusion inescapable, as the only established way to interpret that as scriptural hyperbole would be to say Jesus' atonement was prophetic; remember that the OT prophets were purposefully hyperbolic when describing what would happen to Egypt, Babylon, Persia, etc., so there are valid ways to understand hyperbole in the Jewish mind, but it certainly wouldn't apply to this.

So, in the first instance Jesus pays the punishment only for the sins of the elect. And in the second instance He pays for the sins of everyone. This second position is most often understood in a provisional sense, in order to reason around universal salvation on one end, and Jesus sending people He has forgiven to hell on the other end.

*Governmental atonement. God, in His capacity as Sovereign, can pardon sins in a manner more like a ruler than a judge. The crucifixion itself was purely a revelation of God's love and holy nature, and during it Jesus did not actually pay for sin. They view things like "why hast thou forsaken me" as symbolic and instructional. Also, in their reasoning, God simply pardons people out of a view toward the public good.
*Satisfactory atonement. God must be satisfied. Sin must be punished, so Jesus became the object of punishment. It's probably obvious why govt atonement is much less widely recognized as scriptural, given references to Jesus actually tasting the full cup of wrath, the Lord laying the iniquity of us all upon Him, and so on (not to mention that it flies in the face of the whole OT on sin offerings, which set about the idea of a sacrificial substitute). Like I've established in the last post, it is very important to consider what sin is and why it displeases God before we can better grasp what the Word says about the atonement.

So, in GA God is operating according to His prerogatives as a ruler. Instead of punishing sin in a manner fully committed to justice for the satisfaction of Him as the grieved party, He uses His life and death as a revelation so that we can understand both His holiness and His offer of pardon. According to those who believe this, God's wisdom intercedes between us and His justice, allowing Him to grant pardons for the sake of public welfare.

In SA, on the other end, God supposedly operates according to His prerogatives as a judge. At least, that's what the writing on the subject mostly boils down to. Personally, I don't believe this is a fitting description (although I agree with the way F. Leroy Forlines, for example, works this out beyond the basic definition of "judge oriented atonement"), because the Bible describes Christ ascending to heaven in order to be both judge and ruler. The two roles must be consistent with each other in order to appropriately describe Him as both.

There are some things in particular that I believe are crucial to understanding this subject:

1. Sin is an internal, spiritual action that distorts our view of the image of God within. The result of sin is separation.
2. God made us so that we can feel kinship. There are extremely important ways that we are similar to Him, and sharing in those similarities is the very essence of love expression between mankind and God.
3. Because of the magnitude of God's loss, given that His love relationships were the very purpose of creation, and given the very personal wounding that comes along with distorting the image, God must be satisfied. The very first thing we should consider any time we try to wrap our heads around sin and the atonement, is God's own feelings. Depriving Him of this eminently reasonable and generous end, this love relationship, is something worthy of punishment.
4. Spiritual communion is the key link showing our similarity with the Lord. It is the highest form of love expression, and when we examine the sum total of the Spirit's gifts what we can see is a shift towards Man before the Fall. This is how we go from no longer being separated to grasping with our feelings that there is no separation.

Another area that is often written about and worth noting, is that Jesus' death and submission in having our sins placed on Him, is the passive obedience part of the atonement. The active obedience part was His holy life. This is helpful to understand when reading about GA from theologians who are Wesleyan Arminians, for example, as they will argue that those believing in satisfactory atonement have emphasized the passive obedience over the active obedience.

Where am I getting my idea that the whole problem with sin is separation, as opposed to some aesthetic judgment? Consider things such as how the OT habitually connects adultery to idolatry, or why Song of Solomon is even scripture in the first place. The normal sense that I get from Christians is that they think sin is "icky" or "ugly" on some basic level, that what their view of sin really boils down to is aesthetics. "It's because God said this is good and that is bad." I like to call that what it is: the "ice cream flavors" view of sin. What I'm really trying to bring home is this idea of sin: "What this is, isn't you, and it definitely isn't Me. What it is, is something else. You've dehumanized yourself, and in doing so you've deprived Me of my greatest desire." Something inside us tells us that there is a substantial truth behind sin being so terrible, but still most folks seem only capable of arriving at "ice cream flavors" when you really assess their statements.

In closing I would remark that it's necessary to contemplate the nature of sin itself and the atonement, before examining scriptures about how salvation is attained on our end. We must understand, on our own feeble level, what we are being saved from and what it is that God did about the problem. A notable area that I've left out is discussion of the Augustinian model of sin, primarily because I am assuming the majority of Christians here, whether or not they are aware, find the Augustinian model formative for their thoughts about sin.

In simple terms, ones that don't really do justice to the whole of the idea, Augustus of Hippo brought the concept of original sin and the biblical definition of depravity back into focus, in a Catholic church indebted to Augustus because they hadn't had a formal concept of depravity sin the 1st century church and early fathers like Polycarp, Tertullian, and Clement.

heir
September 26th, 2015, 07:07 PM
justification is just as if we'd never sinned!

aikido7
September 26th, 2015, 07:08 PM
The conflict of faith versus works was taken from Paul, Augustine and Luther.

There was no conflict in the vision of Jesus. ALL were sinners and ALL were granted forgiveness if they forgave others.

Faith and works go hand in hand in helping God establish the Kingdom of God on earth.

meshak
September 26th, 2015, 07:10 PM
Faith and works go hand in hand in helping God establish the Kingdom of God on earth.



Yes.

heir
September 26th, 2015, 07:11 PM
The conflict of faith versus works was taken from Paul, Augustine and Luther.

There was no conflict in the vision of Jesus. ALL were sinners and ALL were granted forgiveness if they forgave others.

Faith and works go hand in hand in helping God establish the Kingdom of God on earth.Our pattern for forgiveness is not forgive in order to be forgiven, but to forgive because God hath forgiven us.


Ephesians 4:32 And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you.

Nanja
September 26th, 2015, 07:21 PM
God only has forgiveness of sins for His Elect Eph. 1:4-7!

~~~~~

heir
September 26th, 2015, 07:29 PM
God only has forgiveness of sins for His Elect Eph. 1:4-7!

~~~~~Your distortions are a result of your refusal to rightly divide the word of truth.

The truth:

1 Timothy 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

1 Timothy 2:6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

Nanja
September 26th, 2015, 07:50 PM
Your distortions are a result of your refusal to rightly divide the word of truth.

The truth:

1 Timothy 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

1 Timothy 2:6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.


The "all", the Saved, are those who were elected to Salvation before the foundation of the world.

That's it.

~~~~~

lukecash12
September 26th, 2015, 07:50 PM
God only has forgiveness of sins for His Elect Eph. 1:4-7!

~~~~~

Falling back to limited areas of scripture and ignoring the repeated uses of kosmos elsewhere, an explicitly universal word, is not hermeneutics. It is confirmation bias, pure and simple. Limited atonement as a doctrine does damage to harmonizing texts.

Given the advanced state of linguistic knowledge and the discipline of theology today, limited atonement is hardly a rigorous enough proposition to stand up any more. At the very least, if we are truly being logical, we must accept that Jesus forgave all original sin.

1 Timothy 2:1-6

First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all people, 2 for kings and all who are in high positions, that we may lead a peaceful and quiet life, godly and dignified in every way. 3 This is good, and it is pleasing in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave himself as a ransom for all, which is the testimony given at the proper time.

Here we can see a statement in full context. Ho dous heauton antilutron huper pantOn. Christ gifts Himself as an "instead-loosener", or "redemption price" for all. PantOn is a Greek masculine genitive plural, and in light of it's grammatical function it can be translated as "any", "every", or "all".

In the absence of any qualifiers elsewhere as to who that "all" is, we already have grammatically explicit Greek in support of the doctrine of unlimited atonement.

But let's proceed further than that with John, in the second chapter of his first epistle, using a qualifier to explicitly communicate how that this "all" extends to the whole world, not just the elect. However we are going to treat that knowledge, if we arrive at universal salvation (a proposition that can clearly be established as not scriptural), or the covering of all original sin, it must be registered that Jesus made some form of sin payment for every single person.

1st John 2:1-2

My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. But if anyone does sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous. 2 He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.

He is the hilasmos/atonement for the hamartio/misses/sin ou peri ton hemeteron, "not concerning only us", but peri holou tou kosmou, "concerning the whole world". John is painstakingly clear in this phrase when he applies holou, meaning "the whole", to kosmou, meaning in Greek "the universe".

We can struggle to understand, but let us not diminish God's achievement, in light of the price He paid and His sovereign prerogative to forgive as much as He chooses.

Nanja
September 26th, 2015, 07:59 PM
God's Children are His Adopted Sons Eph 1:4-5.

~~~~~

lukecash12
September 26th, 2015, 08:03 PM
God's Children are His Adopted Sons Eph 1:4-5.

~~~~~

You are confusing the definition of individual saved people for the topic of the atonement itself. If we are going to be reverent with the scriptures, it behooves us to consider all portions of it instead of sticking our fingers in our ears, and quoting another portion that isn't even specifically relevant.

Refer back to post #16:


1 Timothy 2:1-6 (http://biblia.com/bible/nkjv/1%20Timothy%202.1-6)

First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all people, 2 for kings and all who are in high positions, that we may lead a peaceful and quiet life, godly and dignified in every way. 3 This is good, and it is pleasing in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave himself as a ransom for all, which is the testimony given at the proper time.

Here we can see a statement in full context. Ho dous heauton antilutron huper pantOn. Christ gifts Himself as an "instead-loosener", or "redemption price" for all. PantOn is a Greek masculine genitive plural, and in light of it's grammatical function it can be translated as "any", "every", or "all".

In the absence of any qualifiers elsewhere as to who that "all" is, we already have grammatically explicit Greek in support of the doctrine of unlimited atonement.
1st John 2:1-2

My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. But if anyone does sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous. 2 He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.

He is the hilasmos/atonement for the hamartio/misses/sin ou peri ton hemeteron, "not concerning only us", but peri holou tou kosmou, "concerning the whole world". John is painstakingly clear in this phrase when he applies holou, meaning "the whole", to kosmou, meaning in Greek "the universe".If you can't directly address this material, rather jumping over to the definition of the "children of God" as your recourse, you are effectively sticking your fingers in your ears. I'm not the one who used words like holou and kosmou, John the beloved was.

aikido7
September 26th, 2015, 08:15 PM
Our pattern for forgiveness is not forgive in order to be forgiven, but to forgive because God hath forgiven us.


Ephesians 4:32 And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you.Both John the Baptizer as well as Jesus spoke of repentance before God. Nothing like a blood sacrifice. In fact, Jesus forgave and offered (and granted) salvation for many without requiring the spilling of blood on the altar.

It is remarkable that preachers on Sunday will declare Jesus as a human sacrifice for God and man will turn around and offer Jesus's Lord's Prayer as a model for their parishioners.

"Forgive us our debts (trespasses) as we forgive those who trespass against us."

Forgiveness is reciprocal, said Jesus. We are forgiven to the extent we forgive others.

To understand it, it is necessary to comprehend the culture in which it was written, that of 1st century Judaism. The prayer appears in the New Testament twice, in slightly different forms: In Matthew 6:9-13, and in Luke, 11:2-4.

In both cases, it is delivered by Jesus, which helps explain the revered status it holds.

When Jesus' disciples heard the prayer, they would have responded differently than a modern churchgoer.

To begin with, he said, the term "Father" ( Abba in the original Greek or Aramaic) connoted a "householder," one who oversaw the affairs of a family. A householder would have been judged by how well he provided for everyone.

When the prayer continues with "hallowed be thy name" what it means by "hallowed" is a fair distribution for all, the justice of an equitable household.

In other words the prayer is about "distributive justice," about making sure that all are cared for.

It is revolutionary because it presumes and proclaims the radical vision of justice that is the core of Israel's biblical tradition.

It dreams of an Earth where the Holy One of justice and righteousness actually gets to establish--as we might say--the annual budget for the global economy."

heir
September 26th, 2015, 08:34 PM
Both John the Baptizer as well as Jesus spoke of repentance before God. Nothing like a blood sacrifice. The fact that Christ was going to die "for our sins" was a mystery then. Of course, it was not spoken of!

1 Corinthians 2:6 Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought:

1 Corinthians 2:7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:

1 Corinthians 2:8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

You have no good news that is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth outside of the gospel of Christ (Romans 1:16 KJV); which is that Christ died for our sins and that He was buried and rose again the third day (1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV)!

aikido7
September 26th, 2015, 08:50 PM
The fact that Christ was going to die "for our sins" was a mystery then. Of course, it was not spoken of!

1 Corinthians 2:6 Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought:

1 Corinthians 2:7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:

1 Corinthians 2:8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

You have no good news that is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth outside of the gospel of Christ (Romans 1:16 KJV); which is that Christ died for our sins and that He was buried and rose again the third day (1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV)!It was a mystery but it was spoken of by the writer of the Gospel of John. And by Paul.

John was so focused on depicting Jesus as the slaughtered sinless Lamb of God that he even changed the day that Jesus was killed ! The other three gospels wrote that Jesus died on the next day.

For John, Jesus dies on the Day of Preparation. This was the day BEFORE Passover, the day when the lambs to be eaten at tomorrow's festal holiday were killed, skinned and cooked.

Both John and Paul of Tarsus believed in a sacrificial metaphor of Jesus's death. Jesus and John the Baptizer followed a much older tradition of a God of mercy who demands repentance and forgiveness of others.

The two contradictory traditions can be seen interwoven throughout the Bible from Genesis to Revelation.

Cruciform
September 26th, 2015, 10:06 PM
...Catholics have confused repentance for penance, and hence have involved good works (penance) in justification.
Answered---and corrected---here (http://www.cin.org/users/james/files/justcath.htm). Back to Post #2 above.


I also highly recommend this excellent recently-published text:


http://cdn.brandonvogt.com/wp-content/uploads/Drama-single.png

J. Akin, THE DRAMA OF SALVATION: How God Rescues You From Your Sins & Brings You To Eternal Life (Catholic Answers Press, 2015) (http://www.amazon.com/Drama-Salvation-Rescues-Delivers-Eternal/dp/1941663125/ref=sr_1_1_twi_har_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1443327298&sr=1-1&keywords=the+drama+of+salvation+jimmy+akin)



Gaudium de veritate,

Cruciform
+T+

lukecash12
September 26th, 2015, 11:01 PM
Answered---and corrected---here (http://www.cin.org/users/james/files/justcath.htm). Back to Post #2 above.


I also highly recommend this excellent recently-published text:


http://cdn.brandonvogt.com/wp-content/uploads/Drama-single.png

J. Akin, THE DRAMA OF SALVATION: How God Rescues You From Your Sins & Brings You To Eternal Life (Catholic Answers Press, 2015) (http://www.amazon.com/Drama-Salvation-Rescues-Delivers-Eternal/dp/1941663125/ref=sr_1_1_twi_har_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1443327298&sr=1-1&keywords=the+drama+of+salvation+jimmy+akin)



Gaudium de veritate,

Cruciform
+T+

I appreciate Catholic theology. Any Reformed thinker like myself should be able to appreciate Catholic theology because much of their history is our history, they have given us Aquinas and Augustine, Athanasius and the Cappadocian brothers, as well as innumerable other interesting figures like William of Auvergne. Aside from the big names in theology and philosophy that resonate with Reformed thinkers, there are lovers of the Lord that most anyone Christian should be able to appreciate, like brother Martin the French Carmelite ("O thou God of pots and pans"). Let me emphasize that first and foremost.

However, I would like to have a discussion with you. This is a discussion forum. Reading references are always welcome, and I have read your links so far. What portions of your reference material would you like to discuss? Why do you personally think that Roman Catholic theology isn't confusing penance and repentance?

Magnificat anima mea, Dominum.

bybee
September 27th, 2015, 06:38 AM
I appreciate Catholic theology. Any Reformed thinker like myself should be able to appreciate Catholic theology because much of their history is our history, they have given us Aquinas and Augustine, Athanasius and the Cappadocian brothers, as well as innumerable other interesting figures like William of Auvergne. Aside from the big names in theology and philosophy that resonate with Reformed thinkers, there are lovers of the Lord that most anyone Christian should be able to appreciate, like brother Martin the French Carmelite ("O thou God of pots and pans"). Let me emphasize that first and foremost.

However, I would like to have a discussion with you. This is a discussion forum. Reading references are always welcome, and I have read your links so far. What portions of your reference material would you like to discuss? Why do you personally think that Roman Catholic theology isn't confusing penance and repentance?

Magnificat anima mea, Dominum.

Town Heretic introduced me to "Brother Lawrence" a while ago!
A lovely fellow!
I suspect that, often, consequences become fitting penances when in the presence of a contrite heart?

Interplanner
September 27th, 2015, 06:48 AM
It was a mystery but it was spoken of by the writer of the Gospel of John. And by Paul.

John was so focused on depicting Jesus as the slaughtered sinless Lamb of God that he even changed the day that Jesus was killed ! The other three gospels wrote that Jesus died on the next day.

For John, Jesus dies on the Day of Preparation. This was the day BEFORE Passover, the day when the lambs to be eaten at tomorrow's festal holiday were killed, skinned and cooked.

Both John and Paul of Tarsus believed in a sacrificial metaphor of Jesus's death. Jesus and John the Baptizer followed a much older tradition of a God of mercy who demands repentance and forgiveness of others.

The two contradictory traditions can be seen interwoven throughout the Bible from Genesis to Revelation.


Nonsense.

Robert Pate
September 27th, 2015, 08:49 AM
Justification by faith alone, also meaning that we are justified by Christ alone is the foundation of the Christian faith.

The Gospel is the means of our justification. There is no other name than by the name of Jesus that we can be saved.

We are not saved by the name of Calvinism, nor are we saved by the name of Catholicism. We are saved solely by the name of Jesus.

Jesus said... "I am the way, the truth, and the life, no man can come to the Father but by me" John 14:6.

Not by the way of Calvinism. Not by the way of Catholicism. Not by the way of anything.

Was it not Jesus that fulfilled the demands of God's Holy Law, Romans 10:4.

Was it not Jesus that atoned for our sins and the sins of the whole world, 1 John 2:2?

It is Jesus that justifies the ungodly, Romans 4:5 and reconciles the world unto God, 2 Corinthians 5:19.

Cruciform
September 27th, 2015, 01:25 PM
I appreciate Catholic theology. Any Reformed thinker like myself should be able to appreciate Catholic theology because much of their history is our history, they have given us Aquinas and Augustine, Athanasius and the Cappadocian brothers, as well as innumerable other interesting figures like William of Auvergne. Aside from the big names in theology and philosophy that resonate with Reformed thinkers, there are lovers of the Lord that most anyone Christian should be able to appreciate, like brother Martin the French Carmelite ("O thou God of pots and pans"). Let me emphasize that first and foremost.
I appreciate that, as a former Reformed thinker myself.


What portions of your reference material would you like to discuss?
If you have a specific question not addressed in the cited material, I would be glad to offer additional info.


Why do you personally think that Roman Catholic theology isn't confusing penance and repentance?
While repentance (contrition) and penance are organically related, the two are distinguished (though not separated) in Catholic theology. For example, repentance is defined as "Sorrow of the soul and hatred for the sin committed, together with a resolution not to sin again."* Penance is more specifically seen as an external act involving such practices as fasting, prayer, and almsgiving. Given that genuine penance involves within it true repentance, Protestants sometimes conclude (wrongly) that the two are identical in the Catholic mind.



Gaudium de veritate,

Cruciform
+T+


__________
*Catechism of the Catholic Church, Glossary pp. 872.

beloved57
September 27th, 2015, 01:28 PM
pate


Justification by faith alone, also meaning that we are justified by Christ alone is the foundation of the Christian faith.

You teach millions for whom Christ Justified, made righteous, shall wind up in hell !

Robert Pate
September 28th, 2015, 07:31 AM
pate



You teach millions for whom Christ Justified, made righteous, shall wind up in hell !

If anyone goes to hell it will be because like you they refuse to believe in Jesus.

Instead they want to be predestinated and skip around Jesus and his Gospel.

beloved57
September 28th, 2015, 07:37 AM
If anyone goes to hell it will be because like you they refuse to believe in Jesus.

Instead they want to be predestinated and skip around Jesus and his Gospel.
So you believe that Christ death alone is ineffective to save them He died for! That's unbelief!

Cedarbay
September 28th, 2015, 07:45 AM
Paul disagrees. Salvation is worked out through obedience.


Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling... (Philippians 2:12 NKJV)Verse 13 of the second chapter of Phillipians is the great joy for Christians, because it is God who does the work of sanctification, as He works His will in the believer for His purposes.

Phil 2:13

Robert Pate
September 28th, 2015, 12:38 PM
Paul disagrees. Salvation is worked out through obedience.


Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling... (Philippians 2:12 NKJV)


Then you apparetly believe that Paul was lying when he said, "There is none righteous, no, not one" Romans 3:10.

beloved57
September 28th, 2015, 01:59 PM
Then you apparetly believe that Paul was lying when he said, "There is none righteous, no, not one" Romans 3:10.

You teach that Christ saving death failed to save all for whom He lived and died for!

Bright Raven
September 28th, 2015, 02:01 PM
You teach that Christ saving death failed to save all for whom He lived and died for!

Nope! You just do not understand the Scriptures.

glorydaz
September 28th, 2015, 02:16 PM
Paul disagrees. Salvation is worked out through obedience.


Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling... (Philippians 2:12 NKJV)

Paul did NOT say "work FOR our own salvation". He said to work it OUT....let what the Lord has done and is doing in you out into the open where all can see it...thus there will be no reason for rebuke as we "shine as lights in the world". We have salvation through our Lord's obedience, so there is no need to work FOR it. Nor is it possible. Salvation is a GIFT.

We see here it is God which works in us....giving us both the will and the ability to do His good pleasure.


Phil. 2:13-15
For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure. Do all things without murmurings and disputings: That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world;

jamie
September 28th, 2015, 02:50 PM
We have salvation through our Lord's obedience, so there is no need to work FOR it. Nor is it possible. Salvation is a GIFT.


Salvation is a gift we receive through our obedience to God's instructions. We are created in Jesus Christ for good works that we should walk in them.


For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them. (Ephesians 2:10 NKJV)

Christ will reward each of us according to our works, not his works.


For the Son of Man will come in the glory of His Father with His angels and then He will reward each according to his works.
(Matthew 16:27 NKJV)

And behold, I am coming quickly and My reward is with Me to give to everyone according to his work. (Revelation 22:12 NKJV)

Robert Pate
September 28th, 2015, 02:58 PM
Paul did NOT say "work FOR our own salvation". He said to work it OUT....let what the Lord has done and is doing in you out into the open where all can see it...thus there will be no reason for rebuke as we "shine as lights in the world". We have salvation through our Lord's obedience, so there is no need to work FOR it. Nor is it possible. Salvation is a GIFT.

We see here it is God which works in us....giving us both the will and the ability to do His good pleasure.


Phil. 2:13-15
For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure. Do all things without murmurings and disputings: That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world;

AMEN!

glorydaz
September 28th, 2015, 03:05 PM
Salvation is a gift we receive through our obedience to God's instructions. We are created in Jesus Christ for good works that we should walk in them.

No, our only obedience is the obedience of faith when we believe. The Gift is given to those who believe. We believe enough to reach out and receive what is freely offered to all.



For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them. (Ephesians 2:10 NKJV)

Indeed, we are HIS workmanship...give Him all the glory.

A Gift is not something we earn. If you would read the verses in context, you will see a Gift "not of yourselves" and "not of works", lest any man should boast.




Eph. 2:8-9For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.



Christ will reward each of us according to our works, not his works.


For the Son of Man will come in the glory of His Father with His angels and then He will reward each according to his works.
(Matthew 16:27 NKJV)

And behold, I am coming quickly and My reward is with Me to give to everyone according to his work. (Revelation 22:12 NKJV)


You're confusing rewards with salvation. Rewards are something we earn. There's the difference.

meshak
September 28th, 2015, 08:37 PM
Salvation is a gift we receive through our obedience to God's instructions. We are created in Jesus Christ for good works that we should walk in them.


For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them. (Ephesians 2:10 NKJV)

Christ will reward each of us according to our works, not his works.


For the Son of Man will come in the glory of His Father with His angels and then He will reward each according to his works.
(Matthew 16:27 NKJV)

And behold, I am coming quickly and My reward is with Me to give to everyone according to his work. (Revelation 22:12 NKJV)


You go girl:)

heir
September 28th, 2015, 10:05 PM
The "all", the Saved, are those who were elected to Salvation before the foundation of the world.

That's it.

~~~~~Salvation is wide open today! Anyone and everyone can be saved by trusting the Lord believing the preaching of the cross (1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV) as God was in Christ, RECONCILING THE WORLD unto Himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them!

2 Corinthians 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

Wrong dividing Calvinists worship an impotent god: unable to save the world by the faith and cross work of Christ.

Robert Pate
September 29th, 2015, 07:32 AM
Believing we are justified by faith in Jesus Christ is true absolutely. The reason for this is because it says that's the case such as OP pointed out in verses like Romans 3:26, Romans 4:5. In verse 4:5 it is particularly revealing as it says to those who do no works, but believe in Jesus, their faith is accounted for righteousness. Abraham himself believed in God and it was accounted him as righteousness as in Genesis 15:6 "Abram believed the LORD, and he credited it to him as righteousness."

We also must reconcile this with warnings in the bible. God hates evil most certainly. Proverbs tell us through out the whole book to not be simple but be wise. Jesus himself tells the woman he forgave, "Go and sin no more".

I believe I am victorious through my faith in Jesus Christ. The son of God, who was born of a virgin, baptized by John the Baptist taking the sin of the world, crucified with the sin of the world, and resurrected as our victorious God. Jesus wants us to live in the newness of life now that we have been cleaned.

Jesus died so that we would not die. That is justice. Sin requires death, and death was given by Jesus blood. That justifies us alone. Faith in God is what justifies us. Praise God.

Paul himself says "Shall we sin so grace shall increase? By no means! How can I who am dead to sin, live in it any longer? " Romans 6:1-3

I think Romans 6 answers everyone's questions pretty clearly. We are definitely free but are not to use our freedom to sin.

Excellent post.

Robert Pate
September 29th, 2015, 07:33 AM
Salvation is wide open today! Anyone and everyone can be saved by trusting the Lord believing the preaching of the cross (1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV) as God was in Christ, RECONCILING THE WORLD unto Himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them!

2 Corinthians 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

Wrong dividing Calvinists worship an impotent god: unable to save the world by the faith and cross work of Christ.

Excellent post.

aikido7
September 29th, 2015, 08:36 AM
The fact that Christ was going to die "for our sins" was a mystery then. Of course, it was not spoken of!...

He freely offered salvation to others--and granted it--long before he went to Jerusalem for the last time.

Most Christians, in my opinion, seem to view Jesus through the interpretive lens of the Gospel of John. He saw Jesus as the sinless, unblemished Lamb of God which was killed for all humankind. John was so intent on this view that he moved the day of Jesus's death back 24 hours to the Day of Preparation, when the lambs were slaughtered for the next day's Passover holiday.

Mark, Luke and Matthew assert he died on Passover.

Ancient Jews used to pick a goat, "spit their sins" onto the animal and drive it out into the wilderness with reeds. This is where we get the concept of "scapegoating."

jamie
September 29th, 2015, 09:47 AM
No, our only obedience is the obedience of faith when we believe.


Faith is demonstrated by action. Only believers in God and Christ are rewarded for their actions. Jesus is not judging unbelievers.

We are called to be priests to God and to Christ. Priests serve, meaning they do stuff and are judged accordingly.

Salvation does not mean retirement.

jamie
September 29th, 2015, 09:50 AM
Mark, Luke and Matthew assert he died on Passover.


Is the first day of Unleavened Bread a Sabbath?

Robert Pate
September 29th, 2015, 04:06 PM
Faith is demonstrated by action. Only believers in God and Christ are rewarded for their actions. Jesus is not judging unbelievers.

We are called to be priests to God and to Christ. Priests serve, meaning they do stuff and are judged accordingly.

Salvation does not mean retirement.


It means retirement from religion.

"For he that has entered into his rest, he also has ceased from his own works, as God did from his" Hebrews 4:10.

We now rest in Christ work and have no faith in our works.

jamie
September 29th, 2015, 04:21 PM
We now rest in Christ work and have no faith in our works.


Paul and the other apostles had no faith in their works yet they preached the gospel. How come they didn't rest in Christ's work.


For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them. (Ephesians 2:10 NKJV)

Grosnick Marowbe
September 29th, 2015, 04:36 PM
You go girl:)

You go Meshak. Go anywhere except here on TOL. Perhaps the
Himalayas? Don't forget to drop us a postcard though.

Aimiel
September 29th, 2015, 04:39 PM
It is only God's Grace that saves us, through faith in His Word: Jesus, Who is Christ. It isn't even OUR faith.

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

He gives us the faith to believe Him with. We have NOTHING to boast about, except Him.

beloved57
September 29th, 2015, 10:00 PM
It is only God's Grace that saves us, through faith in His Word: Jesus, Who is Christ. It isn't even OUR faith.

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

He gives us the faith to believe Him with. We have NOTHING to boast about, except Him.

Do you believe that those Christ died for are Justified from all their sins even while they are enemies and unbelievers, based solely on His Death for them?

Robert Pate
October 1st, 2015, 05:11 PM
Paul and the other apostles had no faith in their works yet they preached the gospel. How come they didn't rest in Christ's work.


For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them. (Ephesians 2:10 NKJV)

To believe the Gospel is to rest in the work of Christ.

Jesus has done it all and he did it perfectly.

aikido7
October 1st, 2015, 05:50 PM
The confusion of faith with works is from Paul, and more importantly, from Martin Luther's and St. Augustine's interpretation of Paul.

And the fact that some of his letters are actually forgeries makes the detective work for historians difficult.

This new book sums up the history of Christian exploration of Paul. It is not an easy read, simply because the author packs so much information in every one of his paragraphs. I have found it more useful to dip in occasionally and sample a thought or a tradition. After I first read it, my head was full of confusion. I often don't pay close attention the first time I read a book about Christianity. It's like a bag of onion-flavored potato chips to me. I gobble it down in record time and don't retain much of it on the first try.

http://www.amazon.com/Real-Paul-Recovering-Radical-Challenge/dp/1598151541/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1443743219&sr=1-1&keywords=the+real+paul+bernard+scott

beloved57
October 1st, 2015, 06:37 PM
To believe the Gospel is to rest in the work of Christ.

Jesus has done it all and he did it perfectly.

You teach that millions for whom Christ died shall wind up in hell lost in their sins! That's to say that His Work can't save!

jamie
October 1st, 2015, 06:54 PM
Jesus has done it all and he did it perfectly.


Then why did he instruct his disciples to "go therefore and make disciples of all the nations"?

aikido7
October 1st, 2015, 07:01 PM
You go Meshak. Go anywhere except here on TOL. Perhaps the
Himalayas? Don't forget to drop us a postcard though.Her insistence of taking Jesus at his word disturbs many fundamentalist, evangelical traditional Christians.

In my opinion, Jesus was meant to disturb us. His parables totally overturn the conventional wisdom of his own day and ours.

It's not a bed of roses to be a Christian today.

Robert Pate
October 1st, 2015, 07:03 PM
Then why did he instruct his disciples to "go therefore and make disciples of all the nations"?

Thats the good news of the Gospel.

Religion is worthless because Jesus has done it all and he did it perfectly.

Paul said, "And you are complete in him" Colossians 2:10.

beloved57
October 1st, 2015, 07:05 PM
Thats the good news of the Gospel.

Religion is worthless because Jesus has done it all and he did it perfectly.

Paul said, "And you are complete in him" Colossians 2:10.

You teach that millions for whom Christ died shall wind up in hell lost in their sins!

Robert Pate
October 1st, 2015, 07:07 PM
You teach that millions for whom Christ died shall wind up in hell lost in their sins!

You are full of lies and false accusations, Jude 4.

beloved57
October 1st, 2015, 07:57 PM
You are full of lies and false accusations, Jude 4.

You know you believe that millions for whom Christ died shall wind up in hell lost in their sins, admit it!

Robert Pate
October 3rd, 2015, 04:14 PM
You know you believe that millions for whom Christ died shall wind up in hell lost in their sins, admit it!

Jude 4.

Ben Masada
October 6th, 2015, 11:28 AM
There is no such a thing as justification by faith alone because it would be akin to achieve justification from the dead. "Be assured then that faith without the works of the Law is as dead as a body without the breath of life." (James 2:26)

beloved57
October 6th, 2015, 04:38 PM
There is no such a thing as justification by faith alone because it would be akin to achieve justification from the dead. "Be assured then that faith without the works of the Law is as dead as a body without the breath of life." (James 2:26)

Those Christ died for are reconciled to God and made righteous solely by the obedience of Christ alone, the obedience of one Rom 5:10,19 !

OliviaM
October 6th, 2015, 04:42 PM
We are justified by faith alone because we are justified by Christ alone.

"To declare, I say, at this time HIS righteousness: that he might be just and the JUSTIFIER OF HIM that believes in Jesus" Romans 3:26.

Jesus justifies the ungodly. "But to him that does NO WORKS, but believes on him that justifies the ungody, his faith is counted for righteousness, Romans 4:5.

Justification takes place totally and completely outside of us. We had nothing, absolutly nothing to do with our salvation or our justification. All that God asks us to do is to believe on his Son Jesus Christ, Plus nothing.

The reason that we are justified by faith alone, is because Jesus in our name and on our behalf has offered to God the Father a life of perfect obedience to his Holy Law. It was his life that was lived for our justification.

That was not enough. Something had to be done about our sins. "For he has made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin, that we might be made the righteousness of God in him" 2 Corinthians 5:21. Jesus in our name and on our behalf becomes our sin bearer. Not only for our sins but the sins of the whole world, 1 John 2:2.

God now sees ALL THINGS in his Son Jesus Christ. Jesus is God's new Adam and our new humanity, 2 Corinthians 5:17. All that have come to Christ as repentant sinners to be saved by Christ are in Christ. They have been sealed with the Holy Spirit, Ephesians 1:13 and are in Christ and Christ is in heaven, Colossians 3:3.

What does all of this mean? It means that salvation is by faith and by faith alone. It also means that all religions that are trying to be saved either by works, predestination, or whatever are false.

You miss understand. You have to have faith in the knowledge that doing good will be rewarded even though it sure doesn't seem like it. Faith in magic does not save at all.

You must do good to be good. It is just that simple.

People who say faith only are often people who like to be bad, but justify their bad behavior by saying it doesn't matter.

It does matter. It is exactly what matters most.

meshak
October 6th, 2015, 05:24 PM
You miss understand. You have to have faith in the knowledge that doing good will be rewarded even though it sure doesn't seem like it. Faith in magic does not save at all.

You must do good to be good. It is just that simple.

People who say faith only are often people who like to be bad, but justify their bad behavior by saying it doesn't matter.

It does matter. It is exactly what matters most.

Yes:)

Robert Pate
October 6th, 2015, 07:23 PM
You miss understand. You have to have faith in the knowledge that doing good will be rewarded even though it sure doesn't seem like it. Faith in magic does not save at all.

You must do good to be good. It is just that simple.

People who say faith only are often people who like to be bad, but justify their bad behavior by saying it doesn't matter.

It does matter. It is exactly what matters most.

If that were true the thief on the cross could not have been saved.

God's Truth
October 6th, 2015, 07:36 PM
If that were true the thief on the cross could not have been saved.

How many times do you have to be told that the thief obeyed?

How many times do you have to see the scriptures but still deny them?

The thief on the cross feared God and was sorry for his sins, and he acknowledged Jesus before others, and he called on Jesus to remember him when he got to his kingdom.

You are as a brainwashed robot that cannot think for himself. You only repeat what false teachers taught you.

Robert Pate
October 6th, 2015, 08:37 PM
How many times do you have to be told that the thief obeyed?

How many times do you have to see the scriptures but still deny them?

The thief on the cross feared God and was sorry for his sins, and he acknowledged Jesus before others, and he called on Jesus to remember him when he got to his kingdom.

You are as a brainwashed robot that cannot think for himself. You only repeat what false teachers taught you.

The thief on the cross was a condemned sinner.

He never taught a sunday school class, nor did he ever do any kind of good works. He was a thief.

All that he said to Jesus was... "Remember me when you come into your Kingdom".

Nothing was said about him being sorry for his sins.

God's Truth
October 7th, 2015, 07:11 AM
The thief on the cross was a condemned sinner.

He never taught a sunday school class, nor did he ever do any kind of good works. He was a thief.

All that he said to Jesus was... "Remember me when you come into your Kingdom".

Nothing was said about him being sorry for his sins.

Our works are to do what Jesus says. Jesus says fear God, humble yourself, repent, forgive, and call on him.

Those are works. They are light, easy, and not burdensome.

You cannot be saved unless you believe and obey Jesus.


One of the criminals who hung there hurled insults at him: “Aren’t you the Christ? Save yourself and us!” Luke 23:39. But the other criminal rebuked him. “Don’t you fear God,” he said,


God accepts those who FEAR HIM.

See Acts 10:35.



“since you are under the same sentence? We are punished justly, for we are getting what our deeds deserve.


The thief HUMBLED HIMSELF AND WAS SORRY FOR HIS. We have to humble ourselves to be saved.


Matthew 18:3 And he said: "Truly I tell you, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.



But this man has done nothing wrong.”


The thief acknowledged Jesus before others.


Luke 12:8 "I tell you, whoever publicly acknowledges me before others, the Son of Man will also acknowledge before the angels of God.




Then he said, “Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom.”


Acts 2:21 And everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.'


Luke 23:40-43. Jesus answered him, “I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise.”

Robert Pate
October 7th, 2015, 07:42 AM
Our works are to do what Jesus says. Jesus says fear God, humble yourself, repent, forgive, and call on him.

Those are works. They are light, easy, and not burdensome.

You cannot be saved unless you believe and obey Jesus.


One of the criminals who hung there hurled insults at him: “Aren’t you the Christ? Save yourself and us!” Luke 23:39. But the other criminal rebuked him. “Don’t you fear God,” he said,


God accepts those who FEAR HIM.

See Acts 10:35.



“since you are under the same sentence? We are punished justly, for we are getting what our deeds deserve.


The thief HUMBLED HIMSELF AND WAS SORRY FOR HIS. We have to humble ourselves to be saved.


Matthew 18:3 And he said: "Truly I tell you, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.



But this man has done nothing wrong.”


The thief acknowledged Jesus before others.


Luke 12:8 "I tell you, whoever publicly acknowledges me before others, the Son of Man will also acknowledge before the angels of God.




Then he said, “Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom.”


Acts 2:21 And everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.'


Luke 23:40-43. Jesus answered him, “I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise.”


Calling on the name of the Lord to save you is an act of faith. The thief on the cross was justified by faith apart from any works of the law.

jamie
October 7th, 2015, 07:46 AM
The thief on the cross was justified by faith apart from any works of the law.


As was righteous Abel. You're only stating the obvious.

Robert Pate
October 7th, 2015, 08:05 AM
As was righteous Abel. You're only stating the obvious.

In the Old Testament as well as the New Testament they were justified by faith.

God's Truth
October 7th, 2015, 11:12 AM
Calling on the name of the Lord to save you is an act of faith. The thief on the cross was justified by faith apart from any works of the law.

I think you know you are in deep trouble.

Just look at what you posted. You said from any works of the law...

Jesus taught the new law. hahahahahahahaha

You have to obey Jesus to be saved...now stay with it.

Robert Pate
October 7th, 2015, 06:25 PM
I think you know you are in deep trouble.

Just look at what you posted. You said from any works of the law...

Jesus taught the new law. hahahahahahahaha

You have to obey Jesus to be saved...now stay with it.

No one will be saved by obeying Jesus simply because no one can obey Jesus.

No one can do or keep the commandments.

You are a hypocrite with an evil heart.

The commandments and the law are spiritual. They search the desires and the intent of the heart, Hebrews 4:12.

Do you really think that you can stand before a Holy God in your own righteousness? You will perish in the twinkling of an eye.

jamie
October 7th, 2015, 10:12 PM
Do you really think that you can stand before a Holy God in your own righteousness?



Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous. (1 John 3:7 NKJV)

Robert Pate
October 8th, 2015, 07:41 AM
Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous. (1 John 3:7 NKJV)

The only thing that is going to pass in the judgment is the righteousness of Christ.

If you are not found to be "In Christ" in the judgment you will perish.

To be "In Christ" means that you are trusting in His life, His death, His resurrection for your salvation and not yourself.

jamie
October 8th, 2015, 07:49 AM
The only thing that is going to pass in the judgment is the righteousness of Christ.


That is what you say but that is not what John said. Why do you insist on your own opinion over scripture?

Robert Pate
October 8th, 2015, 08:00 AM
That is what you say but that is not what John said. Why do you insist on your own opinion over scripture?

And what did John say?

jamie
October 8th, 2015, 08:11 AM
And what did John say?



Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous. (1 John 3:7 NKJV)

Robert Pate
October 8th, 2015, 04:26 PM
Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous. (1 John 3:7 NKJV)


There are two kinds of righteousness.

There is the righteousness of man and there is the righteousness of God.

The righteousness of man does not save, simply because all men are sinners, Romans 3:10 and Romans 3:23.

The righteousness of man fails to reach the standards of the righteousness of God. This is why the righteous man needs a savior just like the sinful man.

jamie
October 8th, 2015, 05:29 PM
The righteousness of man does not save...


Yes, we are saved by God's grace. Over and over all you do is state the obvious.

Robert Pate
October 9th, 2015, 08:58 AM
Yes, we are saved by God's grace. Over and over all you do is state the obvious.

We are really saved by the righteousness of Christ. Simply because we have no righteousness that saves.

beloved57
October 9th, 2015, 11:12 AM
We are really saved by the righteousness of Christ. Simply because we have no righteousness that saves.

You teach that millions for whom Christ died and made righteous Rom 5:19 shall wind up in hell lost in unbelief and unrighteous!

God's Truth
October 9th, 2015, 11:34 AM
No one will be saved by obeying Jesus simply because no one can obey Jesus.

Of course, we can obey Jesus.




No one can do or keep the commandments.
Of course, people kept the commandments.




You are a hypocrite with an evil heart.

No, it is not evil to tell people to obey. God did not give everyone the Holy Spirit in the Old Testament, so you are saying God has an evil heart for telling them to obey. Did you hear that? God told PEOPLE TO OBEY HIM IN THE OLD TESTAMENT TIMES! That was BEFORE giving everyone who is saved the Holy Spirit---you are calling God a person with an evil heart! I knew you were a blasphemer, and now it is known more than ever.

Ezekiel 18:31 Rid yourselves of all the offenses you have committed, and get a new heart and a new spirit. Why will you die, people of Israel?

GOD TOLD THEM TO STOP SINNING, but YOU say WE CANNOT, and since I SAY WE ARE TO STOP SINNING that makes me a HYPOCRITE with an EVIL HEART!

I repeat what God says and you say I am a hypocrite with an evil heart.

Jesus says REPENT or perish. That is who I am copying.


The commandments and the law are spiritual. They search the desires and the intent of the heart, Hebrews 4:12.

Do you really think that you can stand before a Holy God in your own righteousness? You will perish in the twinkling of an eye.

I am doing what His Son says says to do, so of course, I trust Jesus and will stand before God, even now.

beloved57
October 9th, 2015, 11:36 AM
Of course, we can obey Jesus.


Of course, people kept the commandments.




No, it is not evil to tell people to obey. God did not give everyone the Holy Spirit in the Old Testament, so you are saying God has an evil heart for telling them to obey. Did you hear that? God told PEOPLE TO OBEY HIM IN THE OLD TESTAMENT TIMES! That was BEFORE giving everyone who is saved the Holy Spirit---you are calling God a person with an evil heart! I knew you were a blasphemer, and now it is known more than ever.

Ezekiel 18:31 Rid yourselves of all the offenses you have committed, and get a new heart and a new spirit. Why will you die, people of Israel?

GOD TOLD THEM TO STOP SINNING, but YOU say WE CANNOT, and since I SAY WE ARE TO STOP SINNING that makes me a HYPOCRITE with an EVIL HEART!

I repeat what God says and you say I am a hypocrite with an evil heart.

Jesus says REPENT or perish. That is who I am copying.



I am doing what His Son says says to do, so of course, I trust Jesus and will stand before God, even now.

Yall are hilarious, both of you teach Salvation by works, by what a person does. Salvation, being made Righteous and accepted of God for eternity, is solely by Christ's Obedience Rom 5:19 ! Both of you reject this Grace !

God's Truth
October 9th, 2015, 11:36 AM
No one will be saved by obeying Jesus simply because no one can obey Jesus.

No one can do or keep the commandments.

You are a hypocrite with an evil heart.

The commandments and the law are spiritual. They search the desires and the intent of the heart, Hebrews 4:12.

Do you really think that you can stand before a Holy God in your own righteousness? You will perish in the twinkling of an eye.

There are righteous people before they had the Holy Spirit.


Genesis 32:28 Then the man said, "Your name will no longer be Jacob, but Israel, because you have struggled with God and with humans and have overcome."


There were righteous people who obeyed God before Jesus came, and after Jesus.

Luke 1:6 Both of them were righteous in the sight of God, observing all the Lord's commands and decrees blamelessly.

Genesis 6:8 But Noah found favor in the eyes of the LORD.

Genesis 7:1 The LORD then said to Noah, "Go into the ark, you and your whole family, because I have found you righteous in this generation.

Luke 2:25 Now there was a man in Jerusalem called Simeon, who was righteous and devout. He was waiting for the consolation of Israel, and the Holy Spirit was on him.

John 1:47 When Jesus saw Nathanael approaching, he said of him, "Here truly is an Israelite in whom there is no deceit."

Job 1:1, 8 There was a man in the land of Uz, whose name was Job; and that man was perfect and upright, and one that feared God...

1 Kings 9:4 And if you will walk before me, as David your father walked, in integrity of heart, and in uprightness...

1 Kings 15:5 For David had done what was right in the eyes of the LORD and had not failed to keep any of the LORD's commands all the days of his life--except in the case of Uriah the Hittite.

Genesis 17:1 When Abram was ninety-nine years old, the LORD appeared to him and said, "I am God Almighty; walk before me faithfully and be blameless.

Genesis 26:4-5 I will make your descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky and will give them all these lands, and through your offspring all nations on earth will be blessed, because Abraham obeyed me and kept my requirements, my commands, my decrees and my laws."


Luke 1:30 But the angel said to her, "Do not be afraid, Mary; you have found favor with God.

Acts 22:12 "A man named Ananias came to see me. He was a devout observer of the law and highly respected by all the Jews living there.


Hebrews 11:5 By faith Enoch was taken from this life, so that he did not experience death: "He could not be found, because God had taken him away." For before he was taken, he was commended as one who pleased God.

Genesis 5:24 Enoch walked faithfully with God; then he was no more, because God took him away.

Luke 2:37 and then was a widow until she was eighty-four. She never left the temple but worshiped night and day, fasting and praying.


Luke 8:15 “… these are the ones who have heard the word in an honest and good heart, and hold it fast, and bear fruit with perseverance.”

Matthew 12:35 A good man brings good things out of the good stored up in him, and an evil man brings evil things out of the evil stored up in him.

John 3:21 But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what they have done has been done in the sight of God.


Genesis 22:18 and through your offspring all nations on earth will be blessed, because you have obeyed me."


Acts 10:22 The men replied, "We have come from Cornelius the centurion. He is a righteous and God-fearing man, who is respected by all the Jewish people. A holy angel told him to ask you to come to his house so that he could hear what you have to say."

Acts 10:35 but accepts from every nation the one who fears him and does what is right.

Hebrews 12:23 to the church of the firstborn, whose names are written in heaven. You have come to God, the Judge of all, to the spirits of the righteous made perfect,
Luke 7:4 When they came to Jesus, they pleaded earnestly with him, "This man deserves to have you do this,

Psalm 69:28 May they be blotted out of the book of life and not be listed with the righteous.




Matthew 12:35

A good man brings good things out of the good stored up in him, and an evil man brings evil things out of the evil stored up in him.

Luke 8:15

But the seed on good soil stands for those with a noble and good heart, who hear the word, retain it, and by persevering produce a crop.


From these scriptures, we see that Jesus himself says there are good people.

beloved57
October 9th, 2015, 11:37 AM
gt


There are righteous people before they had the Holy Spirit.

Invalid comment !

jamie
October 9th, 2015, 11:43 AM
We are really saved by the righteousness of Christ.


Jesus Christ was righteous because of his father.


...how much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without spot to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God? (Hebrews 9:14 NKJV)

God's Truth
October 9th, 2015, 11:44 AM
No one will be saved by obeying Jesus simply because no one can obey Jesus.

No one can do or keep the commandments.

You are a hypocrite with an evil heart.

The commandments and the law are spiritual. They search the desires and the intent of the heart, Hebrews 4:12.

Do you really think that you can stand before a Holy God in your own righteousness? You will perish in the twinkling of an eye.

I repeat what God and Jesus says, and for that you call me a person with an evil heart. Now we know you blasphemed against God and Jesus.

Stop making things up. Tell us where the scripture says you will perish in the twinkling of an eye. You do not care about God's Truth. You should be afraid.

Robert Pate
October 9th, 2015, 01:37 PM
Of course, we can obey Jesus.


Of course, people kept the commandments.




No, it is not evil to tell people to obey. God did not give everyone the Holy Spirit in the Old Testament, so you are saying God has an evil heart for telling them to obey. Did you hear that? God told PEOPLE TO OBEY HIM IN THE OLD TESTAMENT TIMES! That was BEFORE giving everyone who is saved the Holy Spirit---you are calling God a person with an evil heart! I knew you were a blasphemer, and now it is known more than ever.

Ezekiel 18:31 Rid yourselves of all the offenses you have committed, and get a new heart and a new spirit. Why will you die, people of Israel?

GOD TOLD THEM TO STOP SINNING, but YOU say WE CANNOT, and since I SAY WE ARE TO STOP SINNING that makes me a HYPOCRITE with an EVIL HEART!

I repeat what God says and you say I am a hypocrite with an evil heart.

Jesus says REPENT or perish. That is who I am copying.



I am doing what His Son says says to do, so of course, I trust Jesus and will stand before God, even now.


We are always repenting. We never, never reach the point where we say that we have arrived.

Paul says that you are a sinner, Romans 3:10 and Romans 3:23.

John says that you sin also, 1 John 1:8.

I believe what the Bible says.

God's Truth
October 9th, 2015, 05:21 PM
We are always repenting. We never, never reach the point where we say that we have arrived.

Paul says that you are a sinner, Romans 3:10 and Romans 3:23.

John says that you sin also, 1 John 1:8.

I believe what the Bible says.

John and Paul say no such thing.

Why are you always repenting?

You sound like a Catholic.

Always repenting and never obeying.

Robert Pate
October 10th, 2015, 03:53 PM
John and Paul say no such thing.

Why are you always repenting?

You sound like a Catholic.

Always repenting and never obeying.


Are you denying that Paul said, "All have sinned and come short of the glory of God" Romans 3:23.

Are you denying that John said, "If we say that we have no sin we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us" 1 John 1:8.

lukecash12
October 10th, 2015, 09:55 PM
I appreciate that, as a former Reformed thinker myself.


If you have a specific question not addressed in the cited material, I would be glad to offer additional info.


While repentance (contrition) and penance are organically related, the two are distinguished (though not separated) in Catholic theology. For example, repentance is defined as "Sorrow of the soul and hatred for the sin committed, together with a resolution not to sin again."* Penance is more specifically seen as an external act involving such practices as fasting, prayer, and almsgiving. Given that genuine penance involves within it true repentance, Protestants sometimes conclude (wrongly) that the two are identical in the Catholic mind.



Gaudium de veritate,

Cruciform
+T+

Sorry it's taken me so long to get back to you on this. I just remembered we had a discussion going on justification.

For starters, I understand that in both Thomism and Molinism, one must accept a measure of grace in order to act in penitence. I also understand that part of the gulf here is our disagreement over whether or not there is a purgatory, and what constitutes a good set of hermeneutic principles.

If there is a stage where we have to work out, with God, our sanctification all the way to the point of glorification, then yes, Thomism or Molinism can be a acceptable soteriology. We agree that Jesus' work of atonement is the grounds for our justification, and I understand the Catholic perspective that the means by which God can gift us with progress during the process of sanctification is His already finished work.

Oft used theological terms for disagreement here as to whether or not people pronounced righteous in the scriptures were truly righteous, are "forensic righteousness" and "legal fiction". While Reformed thinkers are irked by this concept, I understand that Catholic thinkers consider the Council of Trent, papal encyclicals, and a number of other traditions they view as having apostolic authority, supporting Catholic soteriology. Also, because of the deuterocanon they have different hermeneutic requirements when it comes to harmonizing scripture.

The basis of our disagreement, is whether all of the traditional materials can be reconciled with scripture, and whether the deuterocanon should be considered canon. There is so much difference on this that while we can appreciate each other as brothers in Christ, there is little room for us to have a meaningful discussion. We would have to engage in a detailed discussion about the canon, and whether there ever was such a thing as the mystical ordination of apostolic authority, in order to express well enough why we believe the way that we do.

God's Truth
October 11th, 2015, 12:21 AM
Are you denying that Paul said, "All have sinned and come short of the glory of God" Romans 3:23.

Are you denying that John said, "If we say that we have no sin we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us" 1 John 1:8.

How do you ever get those scriptures say we do not have to stop sinning?

Danoh
October 11th, 2015, 12:27 AM
How do you ever get those scriptures say we do not have to stop sinning?

The Believer does not have to stop sinning, rather; he can...stop.

"Have to" is the Law's means of motivating, "can" is Grace's means of motivating.

Romans 6-8 :)

God's Truth
October 11th, 2015, 12:34 AM
The Believer does not have to stop sinning, rather; he can...stop.

"Have to" is the Law's means of motivating, "can" is Grace's means of motivating.

Romans 6-8 :)

The believer has to stop sinning.

How are you going to eat if you do not obey?

How are you going to have life if you do not obey?

If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever, John 6:51. This bread is Jesus’ flesh, which he will give for the life of the world, John 6:53.

Unless we eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, we have no life in us. Jesus tells us the truth, if anyone obeys his word, he will never see death, John 8:51.

beloved57
October 11th, 2015, 01:54 AM
The believer has to stop sinning.

How are you going to eat if you do not obey?

How are you going to have life if you do not obey?

If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever, John 6:51. This bread is Jesus’ flesh, which he will give for the life of the world, John 6:53.

Unless we eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, we have no life in us. Jesus tells us the truth, if anyone obeys his word, he will never see death, John 8:51.

Christ obeyed God for many and made them righteous Rom 5:19!

God's Truth
October 11th, 2015, 11:18 AM
Christ obeyed God for many and made them righteous Rom 5:19!

Jesus makes many righteous after they obey him.

Robert Pate
October 11th, 2015, 03:47 PM
Jesus makes many righteous after they obey him.

The scripture says no such thing.

Jesus said that he came into the world to save sinners.

You no longer qualify.

God's Truth
October 11th, 2015, 05:25 PM
The scripture says no such thing.

Jesus said that he came into the world to save sinners.

You no longer qualify.

Our obedience leads us to righteousness see Romans 6:16.

beloved57
October 12th, 2015, 11:06 PM
Jesus makes many righteous after they obey him.

You don't believe in the same Jesus as I do, He makes many righteous from His one obedience Rom 5:19 !

Interplanner
October 13th, 2015, 06:57 AM
If GT is talking about personal transformation (sanctification), it's fine to say we make progress by obeying him. It is not true in the arena of justification, though.

Robert Pate
October 13th, 2015, 09:36 AM
If GT is talking about personal transformation (sanctification), it's fine to say we make progress by obeying him. It is not true in the arena of justification, though.

Good observation.

Sanctification does NOT justify.

God's Truth
October 13th, 2015, 10:02 AM
If GT is talking about personal transformation (sanctification), it's fine to say we make progress by obeying him. It is not true in the arena of justification, though.

Are you kidding? We were SANCTIFIED and JUSTIFIED by the blood of Jesus. Justified and sanctified are the same thing.

The blood of Jesus sanctifies us (Hebrews 10:29); Jesus sanctifies us by the truth (John 17:17); Jesus sanctifies (Hebrews 2:11); We are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus (Hebrews 10:10).

Romans 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,

Romans 10:10 For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved.


Now tell me, are you going to stop repeating that nonsense about me and the scriptures?

beloved57
October 13th, 2015, 04:20 PM
Are you kidding? We were SANCTIFIED and JUSTIFIED by the blood of Jesus. Justified and sanctified are the same thing.

The blood of Jesus sanctifies us (Hebrews 10:29); Jesus sanctifies us by the truth (John 17:17); Jesus sanctifies (Hebrews 2:11); We are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus (Hebrews 10:10).

Romans 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,

Romans 10:10 For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved.


Now tell me, are you going to stop repeating that nonsense about me and the scriptures?

They are not the same thing, Justification and Sanctification, no scripture says they are!

Bright Raven
October 13th, 2015, 04:26 PM
Are you kidding? We were SANCTIFIED and JUSTIFIED by the blood of Jesus. Justified and sanctified are the same thing.

The blood of Jesus sanctifies us (Hebrews 10:29); Jesus sanctifies us by the truth (John 17:17); Jesus sanctifies (Hebrews 2:11); We are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus (Hebrews 10:10).

Romans 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,

Romans 10:10 For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved.


Now tell me, are you going to stop repeating that nonsense about me and the scriptures?

Not the same.

http://www.letusreason.org/occ1.htm

God's Truth
October 13th, 2015, 04:27 PM
Beloved and BR, They are the same.

Bright Raven
October 13th, 2015, 04:30 PM
Beloved and BR, They are the same.
Did not read the article did you. One of many. And if you do not care to, remain in you ignorance

Ask Mr. Religion
October 13th, 2015, 04:31 PM
We are justified by faith alone because we are justified by Christ alone.

What does all of this mean? It means that salvation is by faith and by faith alone. It also means that all religions that are trying to be saved either by works, predestination, or whatever are false.

Is faith the instrument or the cause of your justification, Robert? Which one grounds one's justification?

AMR

God's Truth
October 13th, 2015, 04:32 PM
Did not read the article did you. One of many. And if you do not care to, remain in you ignorance

I have the written Word of God. You have articles to manipulate you and to manipulate the written word.

Bright Raven
October 13th, 2015, 04:37 PM
I have the written Word of God. You have articles to manipulate you and to manipulate the written word.
Hogwash! If you read and understood the Word of God correctly you would see the difference. Your infantile behavior raises itself to the forefront.

God's Truth
October 13th, 2015, 04:38 PM
Hogwash! If you read and understood the Word of God correctly you would see the difference. Your infantile behavior raises itself to the forefront.

What else do you have besides insults and accusations?

Bright Raven
October 13th, 2015, 04:42 PM
What else do you have besides insults and accusations?

The truth. Read the word for understanding.

Robert Pate
October 13th, 2015, 05:09 PM
Is faith the instrument or the cause of your justification, Robert? Which one grounds one's justification?

AMR

Faith is what makes the Gospel ours.

Justification is the result of the doing and the dying of Jesus.

lukecash12
October 13th, 2015, 09:41 PM
Faith is what makes the Gospel ours.

Justification is the result of the doing and the dying of Jesus.

Methinks he didn't quite understand the question, AMR.

Ask Mr. Religion
October 13th, 2015, 10:25 PM
Faith is what makes the Gospel ours.

Justification is the result of the doing and the dying of Jesus.

Robert, is man declared by God justified on the basis of his faith?

AMR

God's Truth
October 14th, 2015, 01:14 AM
The truth. Read the word for understanding.

No one gets understanding by reading. We get understanding by obeying. That is what the Word of God says.

God's Truth
October 14th, 2015, 01:15 AM
Robert, is man declared by God justified on the basis of his faith?

AMR

You were given scriptures that prove sanctification and justification are the same. Now do you admit you were taught something?

beloved57
October 14th, 2015, 02:08 AM
Faith is what makes the Gospel ours.

Justification is the result of the doing and the dying of Jesus.

First of all, you dont believe the Gospel, secondly Justification before God occurs before the Gospel is sent to the Justified ones, and thirdly, you teach that millions upon millions that Christ Lived and died for will end up in the lake of fire unjustified, in unbelief in their sins ! So your saying that people are Justified solely by the doing and dying of Christ is a false testimony you dont even believe !

lukecash12
October 14th, 2015, 02:43 AM
You were given scriptures that prove sanctification and justification are the same. Now do you admit you were taught something?

I haven't the slightest doubt that any serious bible scholar could trash this idea were that person willing to waste his/her time. Go ahead and point me to where these apparent proofs are, in the thread, or if you can remember would you be so kind as to state your references?

See post #15 here, for an example as to how I might treat this claim: http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=113209

Robert Pate
October 14th, 2015, 08:29 AM
Robert, is man declared by God justified on the basis of his faith?

AMR

No, There is no saving merit in faith. Man is declared righteous and justified based upon the doing and the dying of Jesus.

However, no one will be saved without faith.

Robert Pate
October 14th, 2015, 08:32 AM
You were given scriptures that prove sanctification and justification are the same. Now do you admit you were taught something?

Justification: God's work for us by Jesus Christ. The Gospel.

Sanctification: God's work in us by the Holy Spirit. The Christian life.

To confuse the two is heresy.

God's Truth
October 14th, 2015, 09:05 AM
Justification: God's work for us by Jesus Christ. The Gospel.

Sanctification: God's work in us by the Holy Spirit. The Christian life.

To confuse the two is heresy.

We are sanctified and justified by Jesus, and we have access to this grace by our living faith.

You cannot have the one without the other. They happen together, and they are so intertwined it is futile to try to separate them.

God does not give us the Holy Spirit to make us believe. Now you sound like a Calvinist.

We were SANCTIFIED and JUSTIFIED by the blood of Jesus. Justified and sanctified are the same thing.

The blood of Jesus sanctifies us (Hebrews 10:29); Jesus sanctifies (Hebrews 2:11); We are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus (Hebrews 10:10).

Romans 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,

Romans 10:10 For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved.

God's Truth
October 14th, 2015, 09:09 AM
No, There is no saving merit in faith. Man is declared righteous and justified based upon the doing and the dying of Jesus.

However, no one will be saved without faith.

You cannot have ACCESS to salvation through Jesus UNLESS you have living faith. Living faith is faith with obedience.


Romans 5:2 through whom we have gained access by faith into this grace in which we now stand. And we boast in the hope of the glory of God.

God's Truth
October 14th, 2015, 09:15 AM
No, There is no saving merit in faith. Man is declared righteous and justified based upon the doing and the dying of Jesus.

However, no one will be saved without faith.

Luke 7:50 Jesus said to the woman, "Your faith has saved you; go in peace."

Luke 18:42 And Jesus said to him, Receive your sight: your faith has saved you.

God's Truth
October 14th, 2015, 09:34 AM
I haven't the slightest doubt that any serious bible scholar could trash this idea were that person willing to waste his/her time. Go ahead and point me to where these apparent proofs are, in the thread, or if you can remember would you be so kind as to state your references?


Jesus died for our sins, and he did this on the cross.

Jesus' shed blood on the cross atones for our sins.

We do not have access to that grace unless we have faith that the sins we confess and repent of are washed away by his blood. Jesus' blood sanctifies us and justifies us.

The people used to have to justify themselves by the blood of animals.

Romans 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

Romans 3:24 being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:


The deeds of the law were circumcision, various external washings, the dietary law, the observance of special days, and animal sacrifices.


Romans 4:2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.

(Paul is NOT saying Abraham was NOT justified by obeying God; Paul is explaining that Abraham was not justified by the works of the law such as CIRCUMCISION.)


Faith in Jesus' blood justifies us, and not the ceremonial works of the old law.


Romans 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:


People misunderstand Paul about no works. When Paul says no works, he is speaking about the ceremonial works; he is not speaking about obeying God by doing right and abstaining from evil.

lukecash12
October 14th, 2015, 10:21 AM
Jesus died for our sins, and he did this on the cross.

Jesus' shed blood on the cross atones for our sins.

We do not have access to that grace unless we have faith that the sins we confess and repent of are washed away by his blood. Jesus' blood sanctifies us and justifies us.

The people used to have to justify themselves by the blood of animals.

Romans 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

Romans 3:24 being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:


The deeds of the law were circumcision, various external washings, the dietary law, the observance of special days, and animal sacrifices.


Romans 4:2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.

(Paul is NOT saying Abraham was NOT justified by obeying God; Paul is explaining that Abraham was not justified by the works of the law such as CIRCUMCISION.)


Faith in Jesus' blood justifies us, and not the ceremonial works of the old law.


Romans 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:


People misunderstand Paul about no works. When Paul says no works, he is speaking about the ceremonial works; he is not speaking about obeying God by doing right and abstaining from evil.

I see a case being made for justification through faith. However, you haven't established your claim that justification and sanctification are identical in the scriptures. That is what you were asked to support, because it is what you claimed.

God's Truth
October 14th, 2015, 10:37 AM
I see a case being made for justification through faith. However, you haven't established your claim that justification and sanctification are identical in the scriptures. That is what you were asked to support, because it is what you claimed.

Just because you say I haven't does not make it so.

When we are justified we are then sanctified.

Go study harder what I said, and humble yourself.

SaulToPaul
October 14th, 2015, 11:35 AM
Go study harder what I said, and humble yourself.

GT: "I obey everything Jesus said."

lukecash12
October 14th, 2015, 12:29 PM
Just because you say I haven't does not make it so.

When we are justified we are then sanctified.

Go study harder what I said, and humble yourself.

For the benefit of everyone else who isn't banned: these scriptures don't say anything about an internal change in someone's moral nature. They detail justification:


Romans 3:28 (http://biblia.com/bible/nkjv/Romans%203.28) Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

Romans 3:24 (http://biblia.com/bible/nkjv/Romans%203.24) being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:


The deeds of the law were circumcision, various external washings, the dietary law, the observance of special days, and animal sacrifices.


Romans 4:2 (http://biblia.com/bible/nkjv/Romans%204.2) For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.

(Paul is NOT saying Abraham was NOT justified by obeying God; Paul is explaining that Abraham was not justified by the works of the law such as CIRCUMCISION.)


Faith in Jesus' blood justifies us, and not the ceremonial works of the old law.


Romans 5:1 (http://biblia.com/bible/nkjv/Romans%205.1) Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:Once again, there is zero in these passages detailing sanctification. Maybe I should just "study harder"? "Humble myself"? I think we can do better than imply others have inferior biblical knowledge, that we should show some pleasure in giving a serious demonstration of scripture and it's interpretation. If anyone is going to pretend to deserve some respect, as if they can correct someone in how they are reading the scriptures, they had better have some serious knowledge and the ability to show it.

Merely repeating quotes ad nauseum is using the bible as a cudgel, not as The Word. It's not just what we're reading but how we read it, showing how we read it.

beloved57
October 14th, 2015, 01:15 PM
Jesus died for our sins, and he did this on the cross.

Jesus' shed blood on the cross atones for our sins.

We do not have access to that grace unless we have faith that the sins we confess and repent of are washed away by his blood. Jesus' blood sanctifies us and justifies us.

The people used to have to justify themselves by the blood of animals.

Romans 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

Romans 3:24 being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:


The deeds of the law were circumcision, various external washings, the dietary law, the observance of special days, and animal sacrifices.


Romans 4:2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.

(Paul is NOT saying Abraham was NOT justified by obeying God; Paul is explaining that Abraham was not justified by the works of the law such as CIRCUMCISION.)


Faith in Jesus' blood justifies us, and not the ceremonial works of the old law.


Romans 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:


People misunderstand Paul about no works. When Paul says no works, he is speaking about the ceremonial works; he is not speaking about obeying God by doing right and abstaining from evil.

I see a case being made for justification through faith. However, you haven't established your claim that justification and sanctification are identical in the scriptures. That is what you were asked to support, because it is what you claimed.
Justification and Sanctification are not the same In scripture, for Justification is a legal term, it has to do with being acquitted before God's law and Justice, whereas Sanctification has more to do with being set apart for God's Holy Purpose, they're related but not the same!

WonderfulLordJesus
October 14th, 2015, 02:43 PM
In the Bible, there are phases of sanctification. Some may find this good little write-up on the subject interesting.

The Sanctification of a Believer

The sanctification of the believer is in three realms: positional, progressive, and ultimate, reflecting the past, present, and future aspects of salvation. In Romans 8:1-11, Paul notes the reality of positional sanctification as the believer is in union with Christ, having been justified and declared righteous. Then He describes how this sanctification is worked out progressively in the life of the believer who walks according the Spirit. Positional and ultimate sanctification are entirely the work of God. Progressive sanctification requires the cooperation of the believer, who is commanded to be filled with the Spirit.

Positional sanctification – justification. At salvation, believers are justified, declared righteous in conformity to the image of Jesus Christ. “For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the first-born among many brethren” (Rom. 8: 29). This is entirely a work of God.

Experiential sanctification – spiritual maturity. The goal is Christlikeness, the result of the ministry of the Holy Spirit in producing godliness in the life of the believer. In essence, progressive sanctification is becoming in experience what we already are positionally in Christ. The Holy Spirit operates in believers to free them experientially from the power of sin and death. “And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what the will of God is, that which is good and acceptable and perfect” (Rom. 12:2).

The progress of sanctification, or spiritual maturity, is marked by conflict, spiritual warfare, because our new life in Christ is on a collision course with the world, is opposed by Satan, and fought by the sinful nature within us. It is the presence of the Holy Spirit that produces the tension or conflict in our life. This conflict in the life of a believer, rather than being proof sanctification’s absence, is evidence of its work.

Progressive sanctification is accomplished by the Holy Spirit as the believer is filled with the Holy Spirit as a result of having no unconfessed sin in his or her life. It is an act entirely of God so that the righteous man lives by faith and not by works. However, it involves a choice: “Be ye holy for I am holy” (1 Pet. 1:14-16).

Ultimate sanctification – glorification. The final stage in the salvation process is the ultimate sanctification of the believer—the future glorification of the believer. It is realized at resurrection when the believer will be transformed into the likeness of Christ and presented to the Lord as holy. The indwelling of the Holy Spirit in the life of a believer is both the promise of and the agency for this future glorification, which includes 1) the redemption of the body, 2) an inheritance undefiled and eternal, and 3) deliverance from the future wrath of God.

“In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God’s own possession, to the praise of His glory” (Eph. 1:13-14; cf. 1 Cor. 1:22).


Justification delivers from the penalty of sin

Sanctification delivers from the power of sin

Glorification delivers from the presence of sin

Source: The Sanctification of a Believer (http://www.biblicalresources.org/resources/christian-life/sanctification/)

Robert Pate
October 14th, 2015, 02:50 PM
In the Bible, there are phases of sanctification. Some may find this good little write-up on the subject interesting.

The Sanctification of a Believer

The sanctification of the believer is in three realms: positional, progressive, and ultimate, reflecting the past, present, and future aspects of salvation. In Romans 8:1-11, Paul notes the reality of positional sanctification as the believer is in union with Christ, having been justified and declared righteous. Then He describes how this sanctification is worked out progressively in the life of the believer who walks according the Spirit. Positional and ultimate sanctification are entirely the work of God. Progressive sanctification requires the cooperation of the believer, who is commanded to be filled with the Spirit.

Positional sanctification – justification. At salvation, believers are justified, declared righteous in conformity to the image of Jesus Christ. “For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the first-born among many brethren” (Rom. 8: 29). This is entirely a work of God.

Experiential sanctification – spiritual maturity. The goal is Christlikeness, the result of the ministry of the Holy Spirit in producing godliness in the life of the believer. In essence, progressive sanctification is becoming in experience what we already are positionally in Christ. The Holy Spirit operates in believers to free them experientially from the power of sin and death. “And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what the will of God is, that which is good and acceptable and perfect” (Rom. 12:2).

The progress of sanctification, or spiritual maturity, is marked by conflict, spiritual warfare, because our new life in Christ is on a collision course with the world, is opposed by Satan, and fought by the sinful nature within us. It is the presence of the Holy Spirit that produces the tension or conflict in our life. This conflict in the life of a believer, rather than being proof sanctification’s absence, is evidence of its work.

Progressive sanctification is accomplished by the Holy Spirit as the believer is filled with the Holy Spirit as a result of having no unconfessed sin in his or her life. It is an act entirely of God so that the righteous man lives by faith and not by works. However, it involves a choice: “Be ye holy for I am holy” (1 Pet. 1:14-16).

Ultimate sanctification – glorification. The final stage in the salvation process is the ultimate sanctification of the believer—the future glorification of the believer. It is realized at resurrection when the believer will be transformed into the likeness of Christ and presented to the Lord as holy. The indwelling of the Holy Spirit in the life of a believer is both the promise of and the agency for this future glorification, which includes 1) the redemption of the body, 2) an inheritance undefiled and eternal, and 3) deliverance from the future wrath of God.

“In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God’s own possession, to the praise of His glory” (Eph. 1:13-14; cf. 1 Cor. 1:22).


Justification delivers from the penalty of sin

Sanctification delivers from the power of sin

Glorification delivers from the presence of sin

Source: The Sanctification of a Believer (http://www.biblicalresources.org/resources/christian-life/sanctification/)

Right on!

WonderfulLordJesus
October 14th, 2015, 03:06 PM
Right on!

Somebody liked something around here? Are you running a fever?

The only thing I'd like to have seen in that write-up was verbiage to the effect sanctification means our being separated unto God, for His holy purposes, that aspect of sanctification occurring at the time of our salvation. (This is where we become aliens in this world.) Sanctification relates to the word saint. I have some old, muddled notes, not written as well, with things like that, but which aren't presentable to mankind.

Anyway, thank you! A couple aspirin may help get you back to being at each others' throats and the morass of bad exegesis.

Many blessings...

Hebrews 10:14-17 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified. Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before, this is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them; and their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.

Romans 8

28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
31 What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?

Robert Pate
October 14th, 2015, 03:11 PM
Somebody liked something around here? Are you running a fever?

The only thing I'd like to have seen in that write-up was verbiage to the effect sanctification means our being separated unto God, for His holy purposes, that aspect of sanctification occurring at the time of our salvation. (This is where we become aliens in this world.) Sanctification relates to the word saint. I have some old, muddled notes, not written as well, with things like that, but which aren't presentable to mankind.

Anyway, thank you! A couple aspirin may help get you back to being at each others' throats and the morass of bad exegesis.

Many blessings...

When Jesus sanctified himself, we were sanctified in him.

There are not many Christians on this Forum. That article is way over the heads of most on this Forum.

WonderfulLordJesus
October 14th, 2015, 03:33 PM
When Jesus sanctified himself, we were sanctified in him.

There are not many Christians on this Forum. That article is way over the heads of most on this Forum.

Ironic you should say this, which I'd agree is probably true, as the article is elegantly simple. To be frank, there is so much appalling spiritual blindness and refutation of simple basics of the Christian faith, things that genuine believers don't argue over, that it can only be tare behavior or trolling, if there is any difference between the two. I think many sociopaths lurk in web forums.

A lot of times, it's hard to find a thread that isn't out in left field and of any interest. It's not unreasonable, for at least a mature Christian, to expect a discussion and some exegesis that is in line with scholarship the past couple thousand years, not contrived nonsense and private interpretations that could only come from the likes of comic books. I don't see where fables, error and gratuitous, incessant, argumentative meanness are of any profit, or Christian, for that matter.

If I were looking for fiction, I'd rather read a novel, something at least well thought out and written with adult verbal skills.

Robert Pate
October 14th, 2015, 04:34 PM
Ironic you should say this, which I'd agree is probably true, as the article is elegantly simple. To be frank, there is so much appalling spiritual blindness and refutation of simple basics of the Christian faith, things that genuine believers don't argue over, that it can only be tare behavior or trolling, if there is any difference between the two. I think many sociopaths lurk in web forums.

A lot of times, it's hard to find a thread that isn't out in left field and of any interest. It's not unreasonable, for at least a mature Christian, to expect a discussion and some exegesis that is in line with scholarship the past couple thousand years, not contrived nonsense and private interpretations that could only come from the likes of comic books. I don't see where fables, error and gratuitous, incessant, argumentative meanness are of any profit, or Christian, for that matter.

If I were looking for fiction, I'd rather read a novel, something at least well thought out and written with adult verbal skills.

Be thankful that you have the truth. It is now your responsibility to try and teach it to others.

"For unto whomsoever much is given, of him much is required" Luke 12:48.

lukecash12
October 14th, 2015, 06:43 PM
Ironic you should say this, which I'd agree is probably true, as the article is elegantly simple. To be frank, there is so much appalling spiritual blindness and refutation of simple basics of the Christian faith, things that genuine believers don't argue over, that it can only be tare behavior or trolling, if there is any difference between the two. I think many sociopaths lurk in web forums.

A lot of times, it's hard to find a thread that isn't out in left field and of any interest. It's not unreasonable, for at least a mature Christian, to expect a discussion and some exegesis that is in line with scholarship the past couple thousand years, not contrived nonsense and private interpretations that could only come from the likes of comic books. I don't see where fables, error and gratuitous, incessant, argumentative meanness are of any profit, or Christian, for that matter.

If I were looking for fiction, I'd rather read a novel, something at least well thought out and written with adult verbal skills.

Hear, hear! I'm often frustrated by this myself, and have noticed that each time I've gone into the real hermeneutic brass tacks, e.g. discussed linguistic issues, people clam up instantly.

lukecash12
October 14th, 2015, 09:51 PM
Falling back to limited areas of scripture and ignoring the repeated uses of kosmos elsewhere, an explicitly universal word, is not hermeneutics. It is confirmation bias, pure and simple. Limited atonement as a doctrine does damage to harmonizing texts.

Given the advanced state of linguistic knowledge and the discipline of theology today, limited atonement is hardly a rigorous enough proposition to stand up any more. At the very least, if we are truly being logical, we must accept that Jesus forgave all original sin.

1 Timothy 2:1-6

First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all people, 2 for kings and all who are in high positions, that we may lead a peaceful and quiet life, godly and dignified in every way. 3 This is good, and it is pleasing in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave himself as a ransom for all, which is the testimony given at the proper time.

Here we can see a statement in full context. Ho dous heauton antilutron huper pantOn. Christ gifts Himself as an "instead-loosener", or "redemption price" for all. PantOn is a Greek masculine genitive plural, and in light of it's grammatical function it can be translated as "any", "every", or "all".

In the absence of any qualifiers elsewhere as to who that "all" is, we already have grammatically explicit Greek in support of the doctrine of unlimited atonement.

But let's proceed further than that with John, in the second chapter of his first epistle, using a qualifier to explicitly communicate how that this "all" extends to the whole world, not just the elect. However we are going to treat that knowledge, if we arrive at universal salvation (a proposition that can clearly be established as not scriptural), or the covering of all original sin, it must be registered that Jesus made some form of sin payment for every single person.

1st John 2:1-2

My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. But if anyone does sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous. 2 He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.

He is the hilasmos/atonement for the hamartio/misses/sin ou peri ton hemeteron, "not concerning only us", but peri holou tou kosmou, "concerning the whole world". John is painstakingly clear in this phrase when he applies holou, meaning "the whole", to kosmou, meaning in Greek "the universe".

We can struggle to understand, but let us not diminish God's achievement, in light of the price He paid and His sovereign prerogative to forgive as much as He chooses.

After this bit, there was one little peep about limited atonement, and nothing addressing this treatment of 1st Timothy 2:1-6 and 1st John 2:1-1 since. No one has yet established a reason why John wasn't talking about everyone when he very deliberate said holou tou kosmou. He could just as easily have used oikoumene for "the kingdom", or ges for "soil/earth", if he wanted to mean propitiation in a limited sense. But on the contrary, he says "whole universe".

GLORIA in excelsis Deo et in terra pax hominibus bonae voluntatis. Amen.

beloved57
October 15th, 2015, 09:34 AM
When Jesus sanctified himself, we were sanctified in him.

There are not many Christians on this Forum. That article is way over the heads of most on this Forum.

Then you teach many of the sanctified ones in Christ shall eventually get cast into hell for their sins in unbelief !

Robert Pate
October 15th, 2015, 11:30 AM
Then you teach many of the sanctified ones in Christ shall eventually get cast into hell for their sins in unbelief !

Jude 4.

WonderfulLordJesus
October 15th, 2015, 11:35 AM
Hear, hear! I'm often frustrated by this myself, and have noticed that each time I've gone into the real hermeneutic brass tacks, e.g. discussed linguistic issues, people clam up instantly.

Can understand this would be the case, if one were to go down into the original tongues, after all the first and foremost problem often the denial of clear scripture in the native tongue. One can be skeptical of those basing doctrines on their private word studies, though, which you see a lot of. I've actually avoided this practice on purpose, reserve such things only for when there may be some issue with the English that perhaps the Hebrew or Greek could shed some light on, but, even then, preferring to look at comparative translations. Many seminarians, including great preachers and teachers, know they aren't scholars of the original tongues, therefore use them sparingly. (I've seen an awful lot of people claiming a word means thus and such in the original tongues, investigate only to find there is either no such minor definition or nothing in the context to warrant a minor definition twist and altered scripture meaning: hence, people trying to use the original tongues to "prove" a private interpretation not really there, upon close scrutiny.) Personally, the concept I can come up with a better translation from dictionaries, that a committee of top scholars failed to find, doesn't even make sense.

What it is about web forums is more egregious than this, what I see. I see the deity of the Lord Jesus denied or impugned, grace by faith denied or impugned, the same with the rapture, many people of doubt, not faith, some outlandish, very basic eschatology that makes zero sense and conforms to nothing in scripture: people here are arguing all day long over a number of settled, baby's milk issues clear in scripture, butchering the very basics of the Christian faith. Just where is the Holy Spirit and His truth in such? So, what I'm saying is that I would expect to have discourse with somebody who has the basics down, anyway, on a purportedly Christian theology website, find it even a real bore, these arguments over Sunday school level theology. I have no desire to argue over who the Lord Jesus is, or what grace and salvation are. Does that make sense? What sort of discussion can you have with somebody who insists the basic gospel is wrong? And I never hear anybody, in a real church congregation, claiming things you read here or having these never ending arguments. I never see in real life, period, people arguing and repeating themselves for fifty pages, in any walk of life. Somebody who simply repeats the same thing, over and over, is even considered mentally ill, in the real world, somebody who makes a habit of gratuitously picking fights considered sociopathic and universally avoided. You even look at some of the shameful thread titles, and it's not of Christ, find myself asking, "Who are these people?" Anyway, a lot of days it's, "Move along. Nothing to see here." Unless you're a glutton for punishment and like arguing with straw men, but even that behavior sort of gets back to the sociopathy of a troll, does it not?

1 Timothy 6

3 If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness;
4 He is proud, knowing nothing, but doting about questions and strifes of words, whereof cometh envy, strife, railings, evil surmisings,
5 Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: from such withdraw thyself.

Robert Pate
October 15th, 2015, 12:16 PM
Can understand this would be the case, if one were to go down into the original tongues, after all the first and foremost problem often the denial of clear scripture in the native tongue. One can be skeptical of those basing doctrines on their private word studies, though, which you see a lot of. I've actually avoided this practice on purpose, reserve such things only for when there may be some issue with the English that perhaps the Hebrew or Greek could shed some light on, but, even then, preferring to look at comparative translations. Many seminarians, including great preachers and teachers, know they aren't scholars of the original tongues, therefore use them sparingly. (I've seen an awful lot of people claiming a word means thus and such in the original tongues, investigate only to find there is either no such minor definition or nothing in the context to warrant a minor definition twist and altered scripture meaning: hence, people trying to use the original tongues to "prove" a private interpretation not really there, upon close scrutiny.) Personally, the concept I can come up with a better translation from dictionaries, that a committee of top scholars failed to find, doesn't even make sense.

What it is about web forums is more egregious than this, what I see. I see the deity of the Lord Jesus denied or impugned, grace by faith denied or impugned, the same with the rapture, many people of doubt, not faith, some outlandish, very basic eschatology that makes zero sense and conforms to nothing in scripture: people here are arguing all day long over a number of settled, baby's milk issues clear in scripture, butchering the very basics of the Christian faith. Just where is the Holy Spirit and His truth in such? So, what I'm saying is that I would expect to have discourse with somebody who has the basics down, anyway, on a purportedly Christian theology website, find it even a real bore, these arguments over Sunday school level theology. I have no desire to argue over who the Lord Jesus is, or what grace and salvation are. Does that make sense? What sort of discussion can you have with somebody who insists the basic gospel is wrong? And I never hear anybody, in a real church congregation, claiming things you read here or having these never ending arguments. I never see in real life, period, people arguing and repeating themselves for fifty pages, in any walk of life. Somebody who simply repeats the same thing, over and over, is even considered mentally ill, in the real world, somebody who makes a habit of gratuitously picking fights considered sociopathic and universally avoided. You even look at some of the shameful thread titles, and it's not of Christ, find myself asking, "Who are these people?" Anyway, a lot of days it's, "Move along. Nothing to see here." Unless you're a glutton for punishment and like arguing with straw men, but even that behavior sort of gets back to the sociopathy of a troll, does it not?

1 Timothy 6

3 If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness;
4 He is proud, knowing nothing, but doting about questions and strifes of words, whereof cometh envy, strife, railings, evil surmisings,
5 Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: from such withdraw thyself.


Paul had the same problem. He would try to ground a church in the Gospel only to come back later and find out that the Judaizers had infiltrared the church with their law doctrine.

The Corinthians were probably the worst bunch of people that Paul had ever encountered. At one time he even threatened to beat them with a stick, 1 Corinthians 4:21.

Yet, he continued to teach and preach the Gospel to who ever would listen. If you have the truth you have an obligation to teach it to others, regardless of the persecution that will follow.

beloved57
October 15th, 2015, 12:28 PM
Jude 4.

That's you!

Robert Pate
October 15th, 2015, 03:11 PM
That's you!

Jude 4 is about men that are heretics, which you are one of.

You have forsaken God's word and have embraced the words of a man who is also a heretic.

beloved57
October 15th, 2015, 04:04 PM
Jude 4 is about men that are heretics, which you are one of.

You have forsaken God's word and have embraced the words of a man who is also a heretic.

That's you!

Robert Pate
October 16th, 2015, 08:25 AM
That's you!

The more light that you receive the further you go into darkness.

beloved57
October 16th, 2015, 11:20 AM
The more light that you receive the further you go into darkness.

Thats you, and you are the darkness !

lukecash12
October 16th, 2015, 02:20 PM
Can understand this would be the case, if one were to go down into the original tongues, after all the first and foremost problem often the denial of clear scripture in the native tongue. One can be skeptical of those basing doctrines on their private word studies, though, which you see a lot of. I've actually avoided this practice on purpose, reserve such things only for when there may be some issue with the English that perhaps the Hebrew or Greek could shed some light on, but, even then, preferring to look at comparative translations. Many seminarians, including great preachers and teachers, know they aren't scholars of the original tongues, therefore use them sparingly. (I've seen an awful lot of people claiming a word means thus and such in the original tongues, investigate only to find there is either no such minor definition or nothing in the context to warrant a minor definition twist and altered scripture meaning: hence, people trying to use the original tongues to "prove" a private interpretation not really there, upon close scrutiny.) Personally, the concept I can come up with a better translation from dictionaries, that a committee of top scholars failed to find, doesn't even make sense.

Translations actually have a different use than telling theologians what exactly to think in order to form serious doctrines, doctrines that make up whole denominations. What a translation is there for is for the average Christian's benefit, for them to enjoy God's Word and have an adequate understanding of the essentials. Even then, people easily misunderstand the essentials.

I agree with you wholeheartedly about private linguistic ideas, and have always been careful to follow two of the most updated and critical sources for Koine Greek (and classical Greek in the case of the latter), Thayer and Vine's Expository and Liddel and Scott's. The reason it's crucial to go back to the original languages when trying to take a more disciplined look at what makes up church doctrines, is that there are many compound words in ancient languages and relevant philosophy behind their terms and the way they spoke. This is most important because in terms of grammar and vocabulary, our translations may basically cover what's going on but give us the wrong idea about connotations.

But I'm digressing a bit, from my first intended point that it is important to compare what you see in your lexicon with information in a concordance showing the different ways that the word has been translated and where. In spite of the dust it's collected over all this time, Strong's Concordance is still perfectly suitable towards this end as it may not have the best in terms of vocabulary explanations, but it is quite an exhaustive concordance, showing everywhere that something is in the text and all of the different ways it has been translated in the AV.

The scholars who do this work can't be thanked enough, and the leading minds of Christian orthodoxy have always held a grave responsibility to carefully deliberate on this information they're given. Why is this so important? You obviously know and are noting the harm that misinformation can do to people learning about Christianity.


What it is about web forums is more egregious than this, what I see. I see the deity of the Lord Jesus denied or impugned, grace by faith denied or impugned, the same with the rapture, many people of doubt, not faith, some outlandish, very basic eschatology that makes zero sense and conforms to nothing in scripture: people here are arguing all day long over a number of settled, baby's milk issues clear in scripture, butchering the very basics of the Christian faith.

This is because they cherry pick single verses and spew them at each other ad nauseum.

Here's a great article on just what it takes to start speaking authoritatively on the scriptures: http://www.bible-researcher.com/bible-study1.html

There is also great pleasure to be had in learning linguistics. Understanding more of these details of scripture will also bring people closer to God, their fascination with it another expression of love. The person who has truly committed to this kind of study would be rare if they couldn't agree with you on the milk.

Those first four ecumenical creeds are so biblical that they have enormous use down to this day. That so many people online think they know so much, yet they clam up at the sight of any language discussion or taking whole passages in context, displays a nature which I feel is disingenuous.


Just where is the Holy Spirit and His truth in such? So, what I'm saying is that I would expect to have discourse with somebody who has the basics down, anyway, on a purportedly Christian theology website, find it even a real bore, these arguments over Sunday school level theology. I have no desire to argue over who the Lord Jesus is, or what grace and salvation are. Does that make sense? What sort of discussion can you have with somebody who insists the basic gospel is wrong? And I never hear anybody, in a real church congregation, claiming things you read here or having these never ending arguments. I never see in real life, period, people arguing and repeating themselves for fifty pages, in any walk of life. Somebody who simply repeats the same thing, over and over, is even considered mentally ill, in the real world, somebody who makes a habit of gratuitously picking fights considered sociopathic and universally avoided.

This isn't your typical public setting, though. Which is why there are a plethora of threads where people pick groups of single verses, thinking that the quotations will speak for themselves, and that simply showing what they've read will display their "great" discernment. Well, I'm sorry to tell them but there's been a long, long history of people who have made it their work in life to carefully educate themselves and edify others on this, and there has been substantial level of agreement on the essentials since apostolic times.

Every orthodox Christian, RCC, Coptic, or otherwise, understands that God is triune, that Jesus is the fully man and fully divine, that the Lord atoned for our sins on the day He gave His penultimate expression of yom kippur, that it is through the atonement of the Son that we have been saved, and whatever model is agreed to, penance or no penance, etc., it is understood that salvation is God's gift and any good we do is also a gift. Any properly taught Molinist or Lutheran would agree to that last statement.

It is distressful that any person claiming to be a Christian would not be able to agree with the first four creeds. This is why there must always be Christians who have been gifted with the opportunity and capacity to learn such technical issues, willing to do so, as these clear supports for the truth of the Gospel have always been agreed to and need to be upheld anew every generation. We must strive to be the Origen, Eusebius, Athanasius, or Augustine of today if we can, because there is a grave responsibility laid upon the Bride of Christ.


You even look at some of the shameful thread titles, and it's not of Christ, find myself asking, "Who are these people?" Anyway, a lot of days it's, "Move along. Nothing to see here." Unless you're a glutton for punishment and like arguing with straw men, but even that behavior sort of gets back to the sociopathy of a troll, does it not?

What's even more alarming at times is people ignorantly spewing anathema at one another. You have to wonder if they are doing this in their every day lives, not fully considering the gravity of their claims and committing to the requisite learning in order to make such a grave proclamation. The proclamation of anathema is supposed to be one of concern and made in sensitivity to the Great Commission. In fact, the last Great Awakening in America (there were huge revivals in the 19th century), was compelled by people who preached on the seriousness of sin, and what it meant to reject God, how generous, glorious, and righteously wroth He is.


1 Timothy 6

3 If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness;
4 He is proud, knowing nothing, but doting about questions and strifes of words, whereof cometh envy, strife, railings, evil surmisings,
5 Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: from such withdraw thyself.

This is made abundantly clear when you examine the fruits and apparent countenance of anyone disputing over doctrinal issues, or proclaiming anathema on someone. Are they comporting themselves in an empathetic manner? Do they really have loving ends in mind? Are they achieving those ends?

As always, I like to end with devotional prayer:

GLORIA in excelsis Deo et in terra pax hominibus bonae voluntatis.
LAUDAMUS te, benedicimus te, adoramus te, glorificamus te, gratias agimus tibi propter magnam gloriam tuam, Domine Deus, Rex caelestis, Deus Pater omnipotens.
DOMINE Fili unigenite, Iesu Christe, Domine Deus, Agnus Dei, Filius Patris, qui tollis peccata mundi, miserere nobis; qui tollis peccata mundi, suscipe deprecationem nostram. Qui sedes ad dexteram Patris, miserere nobis.
QUONIAM tu solus Sanctus, tu solus Dominus, tu solus Altissimus, Iesu Christe, *** Sancto Spiritu in gloria Dei Patris. Amen.

GLORY to God in the highest, and peace on earth to men of good will.
WE praise Thee, we bless Thee, we adore Thee, we glorify Thee, we give Thee thanks for Thy great glory, O Lord God, heavenly King, God the Father Almighty.
O Lord Jesus Christ, only begotten Son, Lord God, Lamb of God, Son of the Father, Thou who takest away the sins of the world, have mercy on us; Thou who takest away the sins of the world, receive our prayer. Thou who sittest at the right hand of the Father, have mercy on us.
FOR Thou alone art the Holy One, Thou alone art the Lord, Thou alone art the Most High, Jesus Christ, with the Holy Spirit, in the glory of God the Father. Amen.

Robert Pate
October 16th, 2015, 05:04 PM
Translations actually have a different use than telling theologians what exactly to think in order to form serious doctrines, doctrines that make up whole denominations. What a translation is there for is for the average Christian's benefit, for them to enjoy God's Word and have an adequate understanding of the essentials. Even then, people easily misunderstand the essentials.

I agree with you wholeheartedly about private linguistic ideas, and have always been careful to follow two of the most updated and critical sources for Koine Greek (and classical Greek in the case of the latter), Thayer and Vine's Expository and Liddel and Scott's. The reason it's crucial to go back to the original languages when trying to take a more disciplined look at what makes up church doctrines, is that there are many compound words in ancient languages and relevant philosophy behind their terms and the way they spoke. This is most important because in terms of grammar and vocabulary, our translations may basically cover what's going on but give us the wrong idea about connotations.

But I'm digressing a bit, from my first intended point that it is important to compare what you see in your lexicon with information in a concordance showing the different ways that the word has been translated and where. In spite of the dust it's collected over all this time, Strong's Concordance is still perfectly suitable towards this end as it may not have the best in terms of vocabulary explanations, but it is quite an exhaustive concordance, showing everywhere that something is in the text and all of the different ways it has been translated in the AV.

The scholars who do this work can't be thanked enough, and the leading minds of Christian orthodoxy have always held a grave responsibility to carefully deliberate on this information they're given. Why is this so important? You obviously know and are noting the harm that misinformation can do to people learning about Christianity.



This is because they cherry pick single verses and spew them at each other ad nauseum.

Here's a great article on just what it takes to start speaking authoritatively on the scriptures: http://www.bible-researcher.com/bible-study1.html

There is also great pleasure to be had in learning linguistics. Understanding more of these details of scripture will also bring people closer to God, their fascination with it another expression of love. The person who has truly committed to this kind of study would be rare if they couldn't agree with you on the milk.

Those first four ecumenical creeds are so biblical that they have enormous use down to this day. That so many people online think they know so much, yet they clam up at the sight of any language discussion or taking whole passages in context, displays a nature which I feel is disingenuous.



This isn't your typical public setting, though. Which is why there are a plethora of threads where people pick groups of single verses, thinking that the quotations will speak for themselves, and that simply showing what they've read will display their "great" discernment. Well, I'm sorry to tell them but there's been a long, long history of people who have made it their work in life to carefully educate themselves and edify others on this, and there has been substantial level of agreement on the essentials since apostolic times.

Every orthodox Christian, RCC, Coptic, or otherwise, understands that God is triune, that Jesus is the fully man and fully divine, that the Lord atoned for our sins on the day He gave His penultimate expression of yom kippur, that it is through the atonement of the Son that we have been saved, and whatever model is agreed to, penance or no penance, etc., it is understood that salvation is God's gift and any good we do is also a gift. Any properly taught Molinist or Lutheran would agree to that last statement.

It is distressful that any person claiming to be a Christian would not be able to agree with the first four creeds. This is why there must always be Christians who have been gifted with the opportunity and capacity to learn such technical issues, willing to do so, as these clear supports for the truth of the Gospel have always been agreed to and need to be upheld anew every generation. We must strive to be the Origen, Eusebius, Athanasius, or Augustine of today if we can, because there is a grave responsibility laid upon the Bride of Christ.



What's even more alarming at times is people ignorantly spewing anathema at one another. You have to wonder if they are doing this in their every day lives, not fully considering the gravity of their claims and committing to the requisite learning in order to make such a grave proclamation. The proclamation of anathema is supposed to be one of concern and made in sensitivity to the Great Commission. In fact, the last Great Awakening in America (there were huge revivals in the 19th century), was compelled by people who preached on the seriousness of sin, and what it meant to reject God, how generous, glorious, and righteously wroth He is.



This is made abundantly clear when you examine the fruits and apparent countenance of anyone disputing over doctrinal issues, or proclaiming anathema on someone. Are they comporting themselves in an empathetic manner? Do they really have loving ends in mind? Are they achieving those ends?

As always, I like to end with devotional prayer:

GLORIA in excelsis Deo et in terra pax hominibus bonae voluntatis.
LAUDAMUS te, benedicimus te, adoramus te, glorificamus te, gratias agimus tibi propter magnam gloriam tuam, Domine Deus, Rex caelestis, Deus Pater omnipotens.
DOMINE Fili unigenite, Iesu Christe, Domine Deus, Agnus Dei, Filius Patris, qui tollis peccata mundi, miserere nobis; qui tollis peccata mundi, suscipe deprecationem nostram. Qui sedes ad dexteram Patris, miserere nobis.
QUONIAM tu solus Sanctus, tu solus Dominus, tu solus Altissimus, Iesu Christe, *** Sancto Spiritu in gloria Dei Patris. Amen.

GLORY to God in the highest, and peace on earth to men of good will.
WE praise Thee, we bless Thee, we adore Thee, we glorify Thee, we give Thee thanks for Thy great glory, O Lord God, heavenly King, God the Father Almighty.
O Lord Jesus Christ, only begotten Son, Lord God, Lamb of God, Son of the Father, Thou who takest away the sins of the world, have mercy on us; Thou who takest away the sins of the world, receive our prayer. Thou who sittest at the right hand of the Father, have mercy on us.
FOR Thou alone art the Holy One, Thou alone art the Lord, Thou alone art the Most High, Jesus Christ, with the Holy Spirit, in the glory of God the Father. Amen.


What Christian other are you?

You appear to be Catholic to me.

lukecash12
October 16th, 2015, 05:29 PM
What Christian other are you?

You appear to be Catholic to me.

I'm a Freewill Baptist. See F. Leroy Forline's Classical Arminianism and Quest for Truth, or Robert Piccirilli's Grace, Faith, and Free Will for examples of what Free Will Baptists believe.

If you're referring to my frequent Latin references, I can see why you might have made the assumption. Most of the Christian literature was written in Latin, thus it is a very useful language. In some ways, it can be easier to express things about God in Latin, because the language was dominated for so long by Christian thought.

It's funny to me that so many Protestants get irritable when I quote Latin prayers, considering that the people who started the Reformation were plenty comfortable writing in Latin.

Robert Pate
October 17th, 2015, 07:26 AM
I'm a Freewill Baptist. See F. Leroy Forline's Classical Arminianism and Quest for Truth, or Robert Piccirilli's Grace, Faith, and Free Will for examples of what Free Will Baptists believe.

If you're referring to my frequent Latin references, I can see why you might have made the assumption. Most of the Christian literature was written in Latin, thus it is a very useful language. In some ways, it can be easier to express things about God in Latin, because the language was dominated for so long by Christian thought.

It's funny to me that so many Protestants get irritable when I quote Latin prayers, considering that the people who started the Reformation were plenty comfortable writing in Latin.


You would be better off to just be a Christian, without the Baptist.

If you must be something or do something, then you are under the law.

beloved57
October 17th, 2015, 10:52 AM
You would be better off to just be a Christian, without the Baptist.

If you must be something or do something, then you are under the law.

You teach salvation by works of the law, that man must do something to get saved! Faith is a work of the Law Matt 23:23 !

Robert Pate
October 17th, 2015, 12:49 PM
You teach salvation by works of the law, that man must do something to get saved! Faith is a work of the Law Matt 23:23 !

You are delusional.

beloved57
October 17th, 2015, 01:07 PM
You are delusional.

That's you!

Robert Pate
October 17th, 2015, 04:06 PM
That's you!

I am not the one that believes in what some heretic wrote back in the 1500's.

Cruciform
October 17th, 2015, 04:27 PM
I am not the one that believes in what some heretic wrote back in the 1500's.
No, you're one who believes what some entirely non-authoritative sectarian Protestant wrote during the past few decades!

:doh:

Robert Pate
October 17th, 2015, 04:31 PM
No, you're one who believes what some entirely non-authoritative sectarian Protestant wrote during the past few decades!

:doh:

If there was just something in the Bible about Catholicism.

Since there is NOTHING, it appears to me that Catholicism is the fairy tale of the century.

Cruciform
October 17th, 2015, 04:44 PM
If there was just something in the Bible about Catholicism.
First, note that Pate's comments here in no way do anything whatsoever to negate---let alone refute---my statements in Post #156 above.
Second, the Catholic Church is present throughout the New Testament, for example, here (http://scripturecatholic.com/the_church.html).

So much for Pate's latest feeble anti-Catholic claim. :yawn:



Gaudium de veritate,

Cruciform
+T+

lukecash12
October 17th, 2015, 08:16 PM
You would be better off to just be a Christian, without the Baptist.

If you must be something or do something, then you are under the law.

Facepalm....

Of course I'm a Christian! For Pete's sake, people... When someone, especially someone well educated in theology, happens to share the association they affiliate themselves with, what they are saying is: "I am a Christian, who also happens to line up this way in a variety of theological areas."

This reflexive response of "oh, you mentioned you're part of the Freewill Baptist association so you're not emphasizing yourself as a Christian" is a bunch of bologna. No one "must be something or do something", rather "Freewill Baptist" is more helpful theological shorthand than "I'm a Christian".

Of course I'm a Christian, my friend, I've always maintained that Jesus is the Lord, fully man and fully divine, that He is the propitiation for our sins, and that God is triune. You said that I appeared Catholic, and gave me every reason to believe that you wanted to know more than whether or not I was a Christian at all. Why on earth would I just respond to that with "I'm Christian"? Hadn't we already established that?

Robert Pate
October 18th, 2015, 07:57 AM
First, note that Pate's comments here in no way do anything whatsoever to negate---let alone refute---my statements in Post #156 above.
Second, the Catholic Church is present throughout the New Testament, for example, here (http://scripturecatholic.com/the_church.html).

So much for Pate's latest feeble anti-Catholic claim. :yawn:



Gaudium de veritate,

Cruciform
+T+


Where does it say that Peter is or was the pope of the Roman Catholic church?

The only thing that is in the Bible that resembles Catholicism Is Pharisaism.

Robert Pate
October 18th, 2015, 08:02 AM
Facepalm....

Of course I'm a Christian! For Pete's sake, people... When someone, especially someone well educated in theology, happens to share the association they affiliate themselves with, what they are saying is: "I am a Christian, who also happens to line up this way in a variety of theological areas."

This reflexive response of "oh, you mentioned you're part of the Freewill Baptist association so you're not emphasizing yourself as a Christian" is a bunch of bologna. No one "must be something or do something", rather "Freewill Baptist" is more helpful theological shorthand than "I'm a Christian".

Of course I'm a Christian, my friend, I've always maintained that Jesus is the Lord, fully man and fully divine, that He is the propitiation for our sins, and that God is triune. You said that I appeared Catholic, and gave me every reason to believe that you wanted to know more than whether or not I was a Christian at all. Why on earth would I just respond to that with "I'm Christian"? Hadn't we already established that?


1 Corinthians 1:10-17. Click twice.

Interplanner
October 18th, 2015, 08:14 AM
First, note that Pate's comments here in no way do anything whatsoever to negate---let alone refute---my statements in Post #156 above.
Second, the Catholic Church is present throughout the New Testament, for example, here (http://scripturecatholic.com/the_church.html).

So much for Pate's latest feeble anti-Catholic claim. :yawn:



Gaudium de veritate,

Cruciform
+T+




I clicked on your here link.

The first two items are easily dismissed. It was the confession of Christ as Messiah that was the basis. That's why other people in the picture there are Christians. That's why Acts 18 gives that summary (Jesus is the Christ) as the definitive thing about the movement. Peter is not mentioned.

On #2, Peter is not the only one with that power. All of them were granted all authority or power, because the message (to Israel first to create as many grounded missionaries as possible) was the Gospel of forgiveness for what is perhaps the worst sin in the world--that of crucifying the Lord. If grace abounds for that, and for a guy like Paul, then you have real power.

I guess you haven't paid too much attention to church history, because there is no point in trying to justify a statement like the Church is infallible. All that does is harden denial.

beloved57
October 18th, 2015, 10:39 AM
I am not the one that believes in what some heretic wrote back in the 1500's.

You believe and teach the doctrine of devil's !1 Tim 4:1-2!

Robert Pate
October 19th, 2015, 08:42 AM
I clicked on your here link.

The first two items are easily dismissed. It was the confession of Christ as Messiah that was the basis. That's why other people in the picture there are Christians. That's why Acts 18 gives that summary (Jesus is the Christ) as the definitive thing about the movement. Peter is not mentioned.

On #2, Peter is not the only one with that power. All of them were granted all authority or power, because the message (to Israel first to create as many grounded missionaries as possible) was the Gospel of forgiveness for what is perhaps the worst sin in the world--that of crucifying the Lord. If grace abounds for that, and for a guy like Paul, then you have real power.

I guess you haven't paid too much attention to church history, because there is no point in trying to justify a statement like the Church is infallible. All that does is harden denial.

Cruciform.


The New Testament, as well as Paul, was preoccupied with the "Historical Gospel" of Jesus Christ.

You know, the one the reconciles sinners and the world unto God, Romans 4:5 and 2 Corinthians 5:19.

Nothing in your Catholic church about this.

Robert Pate
October 19th, 2015, 08:46 AM
You believe and teach the doctrine of devil's !1 Tim 4:1-2!

Not only is he a heretic, he was also a murderer.

chrysostom
October 19th, 2015, 08:58 AM
how do you know someone has faith?

beloved57
October 19th, 2015, 10:19 AM
Not only is he a heretic, he was also a murderer.

And you still teach the doctrine of devils !

whitestone
October 19th, 2015, 11:22 AM
how do you know someone has faith?


consider the word "obey", the atoms obey the voice of God and form together to form the things they are told. A tree obeys the voice and waist none of it's efforts trying to be a mountain. The Sun obeys and the Moon,the planets and the stars they waist no effort to become anything different than the will they are told by God,they remain on their courses as they were given they obey.

A man unlike these waist much efforts becoming something they are not created to be. A man disobeys from youth the very thing he is created and seeks after his own will. This is the same as we are told that serpent also does ,he does his own will instead of the Fathers.

This is confusing though because it seems that I say that there is salvation in works,(I do not). A good work is good to do and is the will of God. Salvation if by grace is not reckoned as if one obeys or not,but is a gift from God to man who was not yet created. The Savior was created first then those who were to be saved.

So if the Savior then being the only creature to which it is said is an "Savior" any who do not have faith that he is that Savior will attempt to save their own selves.

I say this become you ask how you would know who has faith. But faith in what,faith that they themselves are created and that they are also saviors? No,then again faith is of those who believe that Jesus and only Jesus is the Savior.

So if someone thinks that they should go through a religious type ritual to so that they are saved does it mean that they have faith that Jesus saved them or that in their faith they believe he did not?

So faith is something that every man has but not every mans faith is the same. One mans faith if he believe Jesus left him to save his own self,is in doing what he see's as lacking. Again someone who has faith that Jesus saved them and that it is complete,waist no time trying to obtain salvation for he has faith that he possesses it.

One is afraid,the other is not. One goes about the works of salvation the other does not. One is at peace,the other is not. One cannot thank the Lord for salvation for not seeing it,the other seeing it can and does thank the Lord for it.

It is quite easy to see who has faith if you examine what they are doing. One who doesn't have faith they are saved will seek salvation. The other who has faith that he is saved will rest from the works of salvation.

Robert Pate
October 19th, 2015, 11:44 AM
consider the word "obey", the atoms obey the voice of God and form together to form the things they are told. A tree obeys the voice and waist none of it's efforts trying to be a mountain. The Sun obeys and the Moon,the planets and the stars they waist no effort to become anything different than the will they are told by God,they remain on their courses as they were given they obey.

A man unlike these waist much efforts becoming something they are not created to be. A man disobeys from youth the very thing he is created and seeks after his own will. This is the same as we are told that serpent also does ,he does his own will instead of the Fathers.

This is confusing though because it seems that I say that there is salvation in works,(I do not). A good work is good to do and is the will of God. Salvation if by grace is not reckoned as if one obeys or not,but is a gift from God to man who was not yet created. The Savior was created first then those who were to be saved.

So if the Savior then being the only creature to which it is said is an "Savior" any who do not have faith that he is that Savior will attempt to save their own selves.

I say this become you ask how you would know who has faith. But faith in what,faith that they themselves are created and that they are also saviors? No,then again faith is of those who believe that Jesus and only Jesus is the Savior.

So if someone thinks that they should go through a religious type ritual to so that they are saved does it mean that they have faith that Jesus saved them or that in their faith they believe he did not?

So faith is something that every man has but not every mans faith is the same. One mans faith if he believe Jesus left him to save his own self,is in doing what he see's as lacking. Again someone who has faith that Jesus saved them and that it is complete,waist no time trying to obtain salvation for he has faith that he possesses it.

One is afraid,the other is not. One goes about the works of salvation the other does not. One is at peace,the other is not. One cannot thank the Lord for salvation for not seeing it,the other seeing it can and does thank the Lord for it.

It is quite easy to see who has faith if you examine what they are doing. One who doesn't have faith they are saved will seek salvation. The other who has faith that he is saved will rest from the works of salvation.

Hebrews 4:8, 9, 10.

lukecash12
October 20th, 2015, 11:13 PM
1 Corinthians 1:10-17. Click twice.

Are we doing more reading in a vacuum, because it certainly appears so. 1st Corinthians 1:10-17 is at the beginning of a book where Paul was establishing to whom and why he was going to say what he had to say later in the book. He was addressing problems of internal division.

To entertain the idea that every different church has to be of the same mind, and that it's problematic to even mention the type of church you go to while discussing religion with another Christian who already should know you're a Christian, is living in an imaginary world. We're both Christians, yet I'm simply not going to agree with you on everything. In my church, we're basically of one accord as far as we are able. However, we certainly aren't of one accord with Roman Catholic or Lutheran Christians. That's why we don't go to the same church as them.

Were we alive in Paul's time I might be on the exact same page as you, frustrated that the churches out there aren't all following the apostolic teachings in their entirety. But let's not forget that even one of our NT writers, who wrote Revelation, told the church at Ephesus that they were emphasizing orthodoxy over orthopraxy, trying to root out every little misunderstanding and ending up as a divisive force themselves because they neglected orthopraxy.

Just read John's address to Ephesus, and read 1st Corinthians in light of that. Not everyone is going to be of the same accord and people in the apostolic age were well aware of it, even admonishing churches who emphasized all of the right teachings at the expense of an attitude more in line with the Great Commission.

Robert Pate
October 21st, 2015, 09:01 AM
Are we doing more reading in a vacuum, because it certainly appears so. 1st Corinthians 1:10-17 is at the beginning of a book where Paul was establishing to whom and why he was going to say what he had to say later in the book. He was addressing problems of internal division.

To entertain the idea that every different church has to be of the same mind, and that it's problematic to even mention the type of church you go to while discussing religion with another Christian who already should know you're a Christian, is living in an imaginary world. We're both Christians, yet I'm simply not going to agree with you on everything. In my church, we're basically of one accord as far as we are able. However, we certainly aren't of one accord with Roman Catholic or Lutheran Christians. That's why we don't go to the same church as them.

Were we alive in Paul's time I might be on the exact same page as you, frustrated that the churches out there aren't all following the apostolic teachings in their entirety. But let's not forget that even one of our NT writers, who wrote Revelation, told the church at Ephesus that they were emphasizing orthodoxy over orthopraxy, trying to root out every little misunderstanding and ending up as a divisive force themselves because they neglected orthopraxy.

Just read John's address to Ephesus, and read 1st Corinthians in light of that. Not everyone is going to be of the same accord and people in the apostolic age were well aware of it, even admonishing churches who emphasized all of the right teachings at the expense of an attitude more in line with the Great Commission.


There is only one Gospel. It is the Gospel that justifies the ungodly, Romans 4:5 and reconciles the world unto God, 2 Corinthians 5:19.

Every denomination has a different twist, or no twist at all to the Gospel.

Organized religon and the "Historical Gospel" of Jesus Christ are not compatible. There is simply to much freedom in the Gospel. The organized church would not be able to control its members under the Gospel.

Grosnick Marowbe
October 21st, 2015, 09:35 AM
And you still teach the doctrine of devils !

So says the, "hyper-Calvinist fanatic." Even the normal Calvinists
won't back you up. You're an extremist.

Grosnick Marowbe
October 21st, 2015, 09:37 AM
how do you know someone has faith?

They actually believe what they're preaching.

beloved57
October 21st, 2015, 09:55 AM
There is only one Gospel. It is the Gospel that justifies the ungodly, Romans 4:5 and reconciles the world unto God, 2 Corinthians 5:19.

Every denomination has a different twist, or no twist at all to the Gospel.

Organized religon and the "Historical Gospel" of Jesus Christ are not compatible. There is simply to much freedom in the Gospel. The organized church would not be able to control its members under the Gospel.

You don't believe or understand those verses of scripture!

Robert Pate
October 22nd, 2015, 01:04 PM
You don't believe or understand those verses of scripture!

Have you thought about finding a hyper-Calvinist web site.

No one seems to agree with you here, not even the other Calvinist.

beloved57
October 22nd, 2015, 01:15 PM
Have you thought about finding a hyper-Calvinist web site.

No one seems to agree with you here, not even the other Calvinist.

Have you thought about finding one that teaches Christ has failed to save them He lived and died for? Don't you believe that millions for whom Christ lived and died for shall wind up in hell lost in their sins in unbelief?

Ben Masada
October 22nd, 2015, 01:17 PM
how do you know someone has faith?

When he or she obeys the Law. James himself said that without that condition, faith is as dead as a body without the breath of life. (James 2:26)

Bright Raven
October 22nd, 2015, 01:20 PM
Have you thought about finding one that teaches Christ has failed to save them He lived and died for? Don't you believe that millions for whom Christ lived and died for shall wind up in hell lost in their sins in unbelief?Romans 1:16-17 New King James Version (NKJV)

The Just Live by Faith

16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew first and also for the Greek.

17 For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, “The just shall live by faith.”

beloved57
October 22nd, 2015, 01:25 PM
When he or she obeys the Law. James himself said that without that condition, faith is as dead as a body without the breath of life. (James 2:26)

Those Christ lived and died for have obeyed the Law through Him!

Ben Masada
October 22nd, 2015, 01:30 PM
Those Christ lived and died for have obeyed the Law through Him!

Jesus would not contradict the Prophets of the Lord who had the command of HaShem to teach that no one can die for the sins of another. (Jer. 31:30; and Ezek. 18:20)

beloved57
October 22nd, 2015, 01:31 PM
Jesus would not contradict the Prophets of the Lord who had the command of HaShem to teach that no one can die for the sins of another. (Jer. 31:30; and Ezek. 18:20)

You don't believe that Jesus obeyed the Law of God fully while He lived on this earth?

lukecash12
October 23rd, 2015, 12:19 AM
There is only one Gospel. It is the Gospel that justifies the ungodly, Romans 4:5 and reconciles the world unto God, 2 Corinthians 5:19.

Every denomination has a different twist, or no twist at all to the Gospel.

Organized religon and the "Historical Gospel" of Jesus Christ are not compatible. There is simply to much freedom in the Gospel. The organized church would not be able to control its members under the Gospel.

Talking points, nothing more. Were you going to say something substantial at some point?

Robert Pate
October 23rd, 2015, 05:34 AM
Talking points, nothing more. Were you going to say something substantial at some point?


I think that I already have.

The apostle Paul had nothing but trouble with most of the churches that he had established. The church at Corinth was probably the worst. He would ground the churches in the Gospel and then come back later only to find out that the Judaizers had established their doctrine of law keeping.

The same thing is happening today. The Judaizers have taken over and the Gospel that justifies the ungodly and reconciles the world unto God is forgotten.

beloved57
October 23rd, 2015, 05:41 AM
I think that I already have.

The apostle Paul had nothing but trouble with most of the churches that he had established. The church at Corinth was probably the worst. He would ground the churches in the Gospel and then come back later only to find out that the Judaizers had established their doctrine of law keeping.

The same thing is happening today. The Judaizers have taken over and the Gospel that justifies the ungodly and reconciles the world unto God is forgotten.

You teach that millions for whom Christ lived and died shall wind up in Hell for their sins that Christ already died for, that is a false Gospel!

Robert Pate
October 23rd, 2015, 05:55 AM
You teach that millions for whom Christ lived and died shall wind up in Hell for their sins that Christ already died for, that is a false Gospel!

Only if they reject the Gospel that justifies the ungodly Romans 4:5 and reconciles the world unto God, 2 Corinthians 5:19.

beloved57
October 23rd, 2015, 05:58 AM
Only if they reject the Gospel that justifies the ungodly Romans 4:5 and reconciles the world unto God, 2 Corinthians 5:19.

Those Christ lived and died for have obeyed Gods Law perfectly, they must be given eternal life, they are believers through Christ!

Robert Pate
October 23rd, 2015, 06:02 AM
Those Christ lived and died for have obeyed Gods Law perfectly, they must be given eternal life, they are believers through Christ!

HOGWASH!

The only ones that will see heaven are those who trust in Christ for their salvation by their own free will.

beloved57
October 23rd, 2015, 06:16 AM
HOGWASH!

The only ones that will see heaven are those who trust in Christ for their salvation by their own free will.

Those Christ Lived and died for, have kept all of Gods Commandments just like Jesus told the rich young ruler to do if He would Inherit Eternal Life Matt 19:16-19

16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?

17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,

19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Now do you deny that Christ kept the Commandments ?

Robert Pate
October 23rd, 2015, 06:18 AM
Those Christ Lived and died for, have kept all of Gods Commandments just like Jesus told the rich young ruler to do if He would Inherit Eternal Life Matt 19:16-19

16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?

17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,

19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Now do you deny that Christ kept the Commandments ?


Jesus is the end and the fulfillment of the law for those who believe in him.

beloved57
October 23rd, 2015, 06:21 AM
Jesus is the end and the fulfillment of the law for those who believe in him.

Jesus obeyed the Law of God in the Place of them He Lived and died for, and you teach that they still go to hell for their sins in unbelief ! How can perfect keepers of Gods Law be unbelievers ?

Robert Pate
October 23rd, 2015, 06:25 AM
Jesus obeyed the Law of God in the Place of them He Lived and died for, and you teach that they still go to hell for their sins in unbelief ! How can perfect keepers of Gods Law be unbelievers ?

The only ones that will be in heaven are those who have faith in Christ and his Gospel.

beloved57
October 23rd, 2015, 06:27 AM
The only ones that will be in heaven are those who have faith in Christ and his Gospel.

Those Christ Lived and died for have perfectly obeyed Gods Law and shall inherit Eternal Life as Jesus Promised the Rich Young Ruler, are you calling Jesus a Liar ?

Robert Pate
October 23rd, 2015, 06:38 AM
Those Christ Lived and died for have perfectly obeyed Gods Law and shall inherit Eternal Life as Jesus Promised the Rich Young Ruler, are you calling Jesus a Liar ?

The God of the Bible so loves the world that he gives his only begotten Son, John 3:16.

What does the God of Calvinism give?

beloved57
October 23rd, 2015, 06:45 AM
The God of the Bible so loves the world that he gives his only begotten Son, John 3:16.

What does the God of Calvinism give?

So you calling Jesus a Liar ?

Robert Pate
October 23rd, 2015, 06:47 AM
So you calling Jesus a Liar ?


The God of the Bible so loves the world that he gives his only begotten Son, John 3:16.

What does the God of Calvinism give?

beloved57
October 23rd, 2015, 06:52 AM
The God of the Bible so loves the world that he gives his only begotten Son, John 3:16.

What does the God of Calvinism give?

Did Jesus tell the Rich Young ruler if he kept the Commandments that he would enter into life eternal ? Read this:

Matt 19:16-19


16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?

17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,

19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Robert Pate
October 23rd, 2015, 06:55 AM
Did Jesus tell the Rich Young ruler if he kept the Commandments that he would enter into life eternal ? Read this:

Matt 19:16-19


16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?

17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,

19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.


The God of the Bible so loves the world that he gives his only begotten Son, John 3:16.

What does the God of Calvinism give?

beloved57
October 23rd, 2015, 06:59 AM
The God of the Bible so loves the world that he gives his only begotten Son, John 3:16.

What does the God of Calvinism give?

Evasion and Rabbit trail !

lukecash12
October 24th, 2015, 01:04 AM
I think that I already have.

The apostle Paul had nothing but trouble with most of the churches that he had established. The church at Corinth was probably the worst. He would ground the churches in the Gospel and then come back later only to find out that the Judaizers had established their doctrine of law keeping.

The same thing is happening today. The Judaizers have taken over and the Gospel that justifies the ungodly and reconciles the world unto God is forgotten.

More talking points. Can you do any more than pontificate at us all and quote single verses? Are you willing to demonstrate a real exegesis? And if so, can you kindly tell us what the requirements are for salvation and why the RCC and other groups are not teaching people those requirements?

Your apparent position as a self appointed expert, engaging in an orthodoxy witch hunt with glaringly obvious detriment towards orthopraxy, is exactly what John was describing when he addressed Ephesus. That you've failed to respond to that point so far, is proof enough of your intellectual dishonesty.

Robert Pate
October 24th, 2015, 09:55 AM
More talking points. Can you do any more than pontificate at us all and quote single verses? Are you willing to demonstrate a real exegesis? And if so, can you kindly tell us what the requirements are for salvation and why the RCC and other groups are not teaching people those requirements?

Your apparent position as a self appointed expert, engaging in an orthodoxy witch hunt with glaringly obvious detriment towards orthopraxy, is exactly what John was describing when he addressed Ephesus. That you've failed to respond to that point so far, is proof enough of your intellectual dishonesty.

The requirement for salvation is that you believe in Jesus, John 3:18.

Salvation is by faith alone, because salvation is by Christ alone.

beloved57
October 24th, 2015, 10:41 AM
The requirement for salvation is that you believe in Jesus, John 3:18.

Salvation is by faith alone, because salvation is by Christ alone.

Jesus said to the rich young ruler that if he kept the commandments of God he would be saved and enter into Eternal life! Well those Christ lived and died for have kept the commandments of God by Christ doing it for them, they didn't do anything!

Aimiel
October 24th, 2015, 09:26 PM
It is GRACE, operating through faith. It is God's grace that saves not faith. Faith in God is His Faith in us giving us His Grace. It is ALL Him!!!

No boast. No works. Forgiveness. Free.

lukecash12
October 25th, 2015, 12:36 AM
The requirement for salvation is that you believe in Jesus, John 3:18.

Salvation is by faith alone, because salvation is by Christ alone.

Thanks. You concisely proved my point in the same post you were quoting here.

Robert Pate
October 25th, 2015, 06:45 AM
Jesus said to the rich young ruler that if he kept the commandments of God he would be saved and enter into Eternal life! Well those Christ lived and died for have kept the commandments of God by Christ doing it for them, they didn't do anything!

You missed it.

Jesus was trying to show the rich young ruler that he did not measure up to God's standards and that he was a sinner in need of a savior.

No one will be saved by keeping the commandments, because no one can keep the commandments. "All have sinned and come short of the glory of God", Romans 3:23.

beloved57
October 25th, 2015, 07:09 AM
You missed it.

Jesus was trying to show the rich young ruler that he did not measure up to God's standards and that he was a sinner in need of a savior.

No one will be saved by keeping the commandments, because no one can keep the commandments. "All have sinned and come short of the glory of God", Romans 3:23.

Jesus Christ kept the commandments for them He lived and died for! You deny that Christ kept the commandments?

Robert Pate
October 25th, 2015, 08:29 AM
Jesus Christ kept the commandments for them He lived and died for! You deny that Christ kept the commandments?


Only for those who have faith in him.

Calvinism is not of the faith. Your faith is misdirected.

beloved57
October 25th, 2015, 09:22 AM
Only for those who have faith in him.

Calvinism is not of the faith. Your faith is misdirected.

Jesus Christ is our Faith if He lived and died for us! We have obeyed all of Gods Law perfectly through Christ! You don't believe Christ had Faith when He lived on earth?