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musterion
September 26th, 2015, 06:54 AM
“I would like to express two sentiments for my Muslim brothers and sisters,” he began. “First, I send my greetings as they celebrate the Feast of Sacrifice [Eid al-Adha]. I would have my greeting to have been warmer. My sentiments are closeness.”

“I am close to them in the face of tragedy, the tragedy they suffered in Mecca,” Francis continued. “In this moment, I give assurances in their prayers. I unite myself with you all in prayer to Almighty God, all merciful.”

Welcome to your new, bigger, happier family under one false god. (http://christiannews.net/2015/09/25/i-unite-myself-pope-calls-muslims-brothers-and-sisters-in-message-at-st-patricks-cathedral/)

bybee
September 26th, 2015, 07:18 AM
Welcome to your new, bigger, happier family under one false god. (http://christiannews.net/2015/09/25/i-unite-myself-pope-calls-muslims-brothers-and-sisters-in-message-at-st-patricks-cathedral/)

Who knows? perhaps his words of conciliation will touch some Muslim Hearts for the good? Our hearts need to be reminded that God is Love.
Personally, I cannot subscribe to the idea the "Muslims" are my brothers and sisters, but, I do subscribe to the idea that all persons are my brothers and sisters. I am especially saddened by the women and children who have become refugees from war crazed countries. And I do/will contribute to help them.

musterion
September 26th, 2015, 07:39 AM
Who knows? perhaps his words of conciliation will touch some Muslim Hearts for the good? Our hearts need to be reminded that God is Love.

God is love, but that love won't save anyone who doesn't believe the Gospel of the grace of God, which Rome denies as false. Muslims do not even believe Christ was crucified.


Personally, I cannot subscribe to the idea the "Muslims" are my brothers and sisters, but, I do subscribe to the idea that all persons are my brothers and sisters. In what sense are all people brothers and sisters? The only possible answer I can think of is in Adam, but that is no longer reckoned for a member of Christ. Under grace, God counts all humanity as either safe in His Son or under pending condemnation outside of Him. There's no third option, no middle ground, it's one or the other. That is why I personally do not subscribe to any "brotherhood of man" ideas where the believer is concerned, but I'm happy to hear your take on it.

Jonahdog
September 26th, 2015, 07:45 AM
Ah, yes, Jesus Gospel message was a right wing xenophobic one. Missed that.

shagster01
September 26th, 2015, 07:55 AM
Musty would much rather hear, "kill em all. We love Jesus!"

bybee
September 26th, 2015, 08:18 AM
God is love, but that love won't save anyone who doesn't believe the Gospel of the grace of God, which Rome denies as false. Muslims do not even believe Christ was crucified.

In what sense are all people brothers and sisters? The only possible answer I can think of is in Adam, but that is no longer reckoned for a member of Christ. Under grace, God counts all humanity as either safe in His Son or under pending condemnation outside of Him. There's no third option, no middle ground, it's one or the other. That is why I personally do not subscribe to any "brotherhood of man" ideas where the believer is concerned, but I'm happy to hear your take on it.

I am grateful to let God be the Judge! In the meantime I do subscribe to the Two Great Commandments "Love God and love my Neighbor". If I am loving (and this is not always easy) then I am portraying the God I love in a way that may appeal to others.
Life is lived in the middle ground. We reach out from the middle.

bybee
September 26th, 2015, 08:20 AM
Musty would much rather here, "kill em all. We love Jesus!"

As a wise person once said "There shall be some very surprised people at St. Peter's gate! Both for those that are admitted and those who are not!".
God knows the heart and I believe that is what counts!

chrysostom
September 26th, 2015, 08:20 AM
with God as Our Father
brothers all are we

bybee
September 26th, 2015, 08:22 AM
with God as Our Father
brothers all are we

Agreed. It cannot be other.

musterion
September 26th, 2015, 08:24 AM
I am grateful to let God be the Judge!

But those who have rejected the grace of the all-crucifying Cross in favor of a religion of good works are already judged and condemned, lest they repent.


Life is lived in the middle ground. We reach out from the middle.We can love on people all day long, but if we do not share with them the Gospel of the grace of God, our love is actually the worst form of hatred - indifference - and our love is really only about making ourselves feel self-satisfied and may itself be a subtle form of works righteousness. Fair enough?

musterion
September 26th, 2015, 08:33 AM
Agreed. It cannot be other.

Chrysostom is wrong.

John 1:12

Romans 8:14, 16, 19

Galatians 3:26

If someone becomes a child of God only through faith in Christ, then those who have no faith in Christ cannot be God's children. The two groups cannot be siblings. They are now not only in two different families; they are now entirely different orders of creation: one still in the dead flesh of Adam, the other indwelt by the life of Christ and sealed by His Spirit.

Jonahdog
September 26th, 2015, 08:36 AM
Chrysostom is wrong.

John 1:12

Romans 8:14, 16, 19

Galatians 3:26

If someone becomes a child of God only through faith in Christ, then those who have no faith in Christ cannot be God's children. The two groups cannot be siblings. They are now not only in two different families; they are now entirely different orders of creation: one still in the dead flesh of Adam, the other indwelt by the life of Christ and sealed by His Spirit.

And you get to judge, how special is that!

Jonahdog
September 26th, 2015, 08:37 AM
grace

Grace being the operative word, fair enough?

chrysostom
September 26th, 2015, 08:38 AM
Chrysostom is wrong.

John 1:12

Romans 8:14, 16, 19

Galatians 3:26

If someone becomes a child of God only through faith in Christ, then those who have no faith in Christ cannot be God's children. The two groups cannot be siblings. They are now not only in two different families; they are now entirely different orders of creation: one still in the dead flesh of Adam, the other indwelt by the life of Christ and sealed by His Spirit.

this is just another example of how so called christians use the bible to disprove something that is obviously true

Right Divider
September 26th, 2015, 08:53 AM
And you get to judge, how special is that!
It seems like YOU are judging HIM.

bybee
September 26th, 2015, 09:42 AM
Chrysostom is wrong.

John 1:12

Romans 8:14, 16, 19

Galatians 3:26

If someone becomes a child of God only through faith in Christ, then those who have no faith in Christ cannot be God's children. The two groups cannot be siblings. They are now not only in two different families; they are now entirely different orders of creation: one still in the dead flesh of Adam, the other indwelt by the life of Christ and sealed by His Spirit.

I disagree with your judgments.

ok doser
September 26th, 2015, 10:10 AM
I disagree with your judgments.

do you disagree with galatians?


gal 3:26 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.

bybee
September 26th, 2015, 10:48 AM
do you disagree with galatians?

I do not disagree with your quote.
Faith is an opportunity to each of us for so long as we live.

meshak
September 26th, 2015, 11:32 AM
I am grateful to let God be the Judge! In the meantime I do subscribe to the Two Great Commandments "Love God and love my Neighbor". If I am loving (and this is not always easy) then I am portraying the God I love in a way that may appeal to others.
Life is lived in the middle ground. We reach out from the middle.

good for you:)

whitestone
September 26th, 2015, 12:06 PM
Welcome to your new, bigger, happier family under one false god. (http://christiannews.net/2015/09/25/i-unite-myself-pope-calls-muslims-brothers-and-sisters-in-message-at-st-patricks-cathedral/)

not sure if I can post the full text of this same speech from two days ago (abc news) so google it and find the entire transcript. Then look in the (18th paragraph) where he says ,,,,,"...Jesus Christ and his life,humanly speaking,ended in failure,the failure of the cross",,lol thats the part that has me scratching my head.

Christian Liberty
September 26th, 2015, 01:31 PM
Ah, yes, Jesus Gospel message was a right wing xenophobic one. Missed that.

The issue is religion, not race. The issue is faith in Christ, not country of origin. This has nothing to do with immigration issues (of which I support open borders.) This is about a son of satan trying to say that it doesn't matter what religion you believe in.

musterion
September 26th, 2015, 03:34 PM
I do not disagree with your quote.
Faith is an opportunity to each of us for so long as we live.

That's why I always say of any unbeliever, "...lest they repent." The door of grace is open to them as long as they live. But until they do so, they are unreconciled and at enmity with God, condemned right where they stand. Anyone can BECOME a child of God, but only by coming to Him through His Son, and that only through the Gospel of the grace of God, which - I say again - Rome anathematized centuries ago.

Angel4Truth
September 26th, 2015, 03:54 PM
Chrysostom is wrong.

John 1:12

Romans 8:14, 16, 19

Galatians 3:26

If someone becomes a child of God only through faith in Christ, then those who have no faith in Christ cannot be God's children. The two groups cannot be siblings. They are now not only in two different families; they are now entirely different orders of creation: one still in the dead flesh of Adam, the other indwelt by the life of Christ and sealed by His Spirit.

That is correct, we become children of God through faith in Jesus Christ only.

Lazy afternoon
September 26th, 2015, 04:04 PM
That's why I always say of any unbeliever, "...lest they repent." The door of grace is open to them as long as they live. But until they do so, they are unreconciled and at enmity with God, condemned right where they stand. Anyone can BECOME a child of God, but only by coming to Him through His Son, and that only through the Gospel of the grace of God, which - I say again - Rome anathematized centuries ago.



Many individuals of the RCC may well be saved, how would we know?

Many Moslems may be also.

Not necessarily the hard liners but others who are not yet confessing Christ publically.

Lets not make a blanket statement about any race or religion or country.

It does not help.

LA

musterion
September 26th, 2015, 04:21 PM
I disagree with your judgments.

I haven't made any judgments. I'm just reporting what the Bible already says because I believe it. Why do you fault me for that?

musterion
September 26th, 2015, 04:24 PM
Many individuals of the RCC may well be saved, how would we know?

By their coming out from among the Whore that denies the Lord and has replaced Him with an ever-dying, never finished idol that they won't let off their crucifixes.


Many Moslems may be also. Not and remain Muslims. Islam denies Christ was even crucified...one cannot be a member of Christ and deny the cross.


Not necessarily the hard liners but others who are not yet confessing Christ publically.Same answer: if they believe Christ was crucified and buried for their sin and raised for their justification, they're no longer Muslims.


Lets not make a blanket statement about any race or religion or country.Do not tell me what to do.


It does not help.Then prove that you know what does help: What must a person - anyone - do to be saved today? In one sentence, please answer that.

Cruciform
September 26th, 2015, 05:22 PM
Catholics: Muslims are your brothers and sisters
Now go ahead and explain the particular sense in which non-Christians may be our "brothers and sisters." Are you able to do that?

Granite
September 26th, 2015, 05:24 PM
Who knows? perhaps his words of conciliation will touch some Muslim Hearts for the good? Our hearts need to be reminded that God is Love.
Personally, I cannot subscribe to the idea the "Muslims" are my brothers and sisters, but, I do subscribe to the idea that all persons are my brothers and sisters. I am especially saddened by the women and children who have become refugees from war crazed countries. And I do/will contribute to help them.

What did the Ghost of Christmas Present say in the '84 adaptation...

"Are they not of the human race?"

Cruciform
September 26th, 2015, 05:28 PM
What did the Ghost of Christmas Present say in the '84 adaptation... "Are they not of the human race?"

:thumb:

aikido7
September 26th, 2015, 05:39 PM
Welcome to your new, bigger, happier family under one false god. (http://christiannews.net/2015/09/25/i-unite-myself-pope-calls-muslims-brothers-and-sisters-in-message-at-st-patricks-cathedral/)Allah and God are the divine names for the sacred and holy. Both Islam and Christianity devised their culture in different times and in different places.

All world faiths have a respect for their brothers and sisters in other religions. All religions start out with respect and the ethical treatment of others.

But today these faiths have evolved into fundamentalism--a fear of the modern world. So it's the members that fear and hate each other.

Jesus accepted everyone and had feasts and celebrations with them.

That fact alone makes most Christians today feel threatened.

Lazy afternoon
September 26th, 2015, 05:49 PM
By their coming out from among the Whore that denies the Lord and has replaced Him with an ever-dying, never finished idol that they won't let off their crucifixes.

I agree but still not all Roman Catholics believe in Roman Catholicism, same as not all communists believe in communism.


Not and remain Muslims. Islam denies Christ was even crucified...one cannot be a member of Christ and deny the cross.

All Islamists do not reject Christ.


Same answer: if they believe Christ was crucified and buried for their sin and raised for their justification, they're no longer Muslims.

In effect yes, but even true believers can be Moslem in culture.


Do not tell me what to do.

You do not want Christ to tell you what not to do.


Then prove that you know what does help: What must a person - anyone - do to be saved today? In one sentence, please answer that.

Act 16:30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?
Act 16:31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

You do not think a Roman Catholic or Muslim can do that and remain a Roman Catholic or Muslim.

It is best that you encourage people to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ than slam all Muslims and their culture.

The love of Christ can spead through the hearts of Muslims and then the Lord will show them what is good and what is bad.

but your idea is that you show them how bad they are, and you lose them all.

You do not think Christ can be received by a Muslim until they turn away from Islam.

You have it back to front.

Light exposes darkness.

Exposing darkness does not shine any light.

Eph 5:12 For it is a shame even to speak of those things which are done of them in secret.
Eph 5:13 But all things that are reproved are made manifest by the light: for whatsoever doth make manifest is light.
Eph 5:14 Wherefore he saith, Awake thou that sleepest, and arise from the dead, and Christ shall give thee light.
Eph 5:15 See then that ye walk circumspectly, not as fools, but as wise,

Did you not know that all false prophets are experts on telling others how evil they are?

but to do good they know nothing of it.

Mat 10:16 Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves: be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves.


LA

Lazy afternoon
September 26th, 2015, 06:48 PM
Allah and God are the divine names for the sacred and holy. Both Islam and Christianity devised their culture in different times and in different places.

That is a lie.


All world faiths have a respect for their brothers and sisters in other religions. All religions start out with respect and the ethical treatment of others.

another great lie.


But today these faiths have evolved into fundamentalism--a fear of the modern world. So it's the members that fear and hate each other.

a lot of rubbish.


Jesus accepted everyone and had feasts and celebrations with them.

Rubbish.

Jesus would not have attended their demon worship.


That fact alone makes most Christians today feel threatened.

How would you know, when you are not a Christian.

If you were a Christian then you would know that the Moslem god is not Holy.

LA

aikido7
September 26th, 2015, 06:52 PM
That is a lie.



another great lie.



a lot of rubbish.



Rubbish.

Jesus would not have attended their demon worship.



How would you know, when you are not a Christian.

If you were a Christian then you would know that the Moslem god is not Holy.

LAYour immature name-calling and judgementalism are one of the main reasons of my personal mission: trying to set up fundamentalists on blind dates with Jesus.

Many Jews and Romans of Jesus's time probably felt that Jesus was worshiping with the Devil all his life. And he was also branded as an atheist among his own religious peers. Eating with the destitute and the dirty homeless sinners was a profound breach of ancient religions, social and political etiquette.

We moderns have little idea of the supreme cultural importance of purity and social rules that had to be followed in every meal.

Jesus was a party animal and celebrated life in the midst of those who society called "evil."

Your reply is a familiar dodge to me.

aikido7
September 26th, 2015, 06:57 PM
If you were a Christian then you would know that the Moslem god is not Holy.

LAI see God in Jesus of Nazareth. I was born in America and did not grow up with the culture of Islam. I worked in the Middle East for a short time, but I was and remain a Christian.

It is just an accident of birth that I was born into a Judeo-Christian country. I feel lucky to not have succumbed to the prehistoric tribalism of many fundamentalist Christians and Muslims.

My Jesus demands I treat others with an open-hearted compassion, respect and fairness. So I have no quarrel with different faiths because I am secure in my own.

Zeke
September 26th, 2015, 07:32 PM
Welcome to your new, bigger, happier family under one false god. (http://christiannews.net/2015/09/25/i-unite-myself-pope-calls-muslims-brothers-and-sisters-in-message-at-st-patricks-cathedral/)

But you embrace the Roman doctrine of a literal sacrifice of the inward Spirit that Jesus represented, you can't get past Matt 11:11, or Galatians 4:24-28, these two are also found in 1Cor 15:45.

Those that spout the grace dogma have the least grace in their own hearts, been there done that!

meshak
September 26th, 2015, 07:48 PM
But you embrace the Roman doctrine of a literal sacrifice of the inward Spirit that Jesus represented, you can't get past Matt 11:11, or Galatians 4:24-28, these two are also found in 1Cor 15:45.

Those that spout the grace dogma have the least grace in their own hearts, been there done that!

yes.

musterion
September 27th, 2015, 04:06 AM
Now go ahead and explain the particular sense in which non-Christians may be our "brothers and sisters." Are you able to do that?

Already addressed that.

musterion
September 27th, 2015, 04:12 AM
But you embrace the Roman doctrine of a literal sacrifice of the inward Spirit that Jesus represented

Never heard of it.

Zeke
September 27th, 2015, 09:10 AM
Never heard of it.

Obviously you have, seeing you think Jesus was a literal man who died to pay for you're sins, which is a Roman dogma forced on the populace since the third century.

Plus the fact Jesus even mentioned John was the best born of a woman, which makes Jesus born of the spirit within us. The motif of two Fathers, Mothers and siblings in scripture has escape you.

musterion
September 27th, 2015, 09:21 AM
Obviously you have, seeing you think Jesus was a literal man who died to pay for you're sins, which is a Roman dogma forced on the populace since the third century.

Let's see if I believe what you assume I believe:

1. What exactly do you mean by "a literal man"? What does "literal" mean here?

2. What exactly do you mean by "died to pay for you're [sic] sins, which is a Roman dogma"

Cruciform
September 27th, 2015, 01:37 PM
Already addressed that.
Post number, please.

Zeke
September 27th, 2015, 08:18 PM
Let's see if I believe what you assume I believe:

1. What exactly do you mean by "a literal man"? What does "literal" mean here?

2. What exactly do you mean by "died to pay for you're [sic] sins, which is a Roman dogma"

1.You know what I mean, a flesh and blood sacrifice that can't inherit the kingdom! just saying.

2. Pretty simple if one isn't trying to justify their belief system, research would open those Matt 11:11 denial eyes, as would a ponder of 2Cor 3:6.

And grace of coarse by all means, Zeke.

Eric h
September 28th, 2015, 12:57 AM
By their coming out from among the Whore that denies the Lord and has replaced Him with an ever-dying, never finished idol that they won't let off their crucifixes.



When we say the Lords prayer, we tell God to forgive us, in the same way that we forgive others.

It seems to say, if we condemn others, we are also asking God to condemn us in the same way.

meshak
September 28th, 2015, 03:04 AM
When we say the Lords prayer, we tell God to forgive us, in the same way that we forgive others.

It seems to say, if we condemn others, we are also asking God to condemn us in the same way.

yes. I agree with you.

Is it what Catholics teach?

then why do they approve of their people to join the military?

It does not make sense at all.

BTW, it is not just Catholics that approve of killing their enemy. Most protestants are the same.

musterion
September 28th, 2015, 03:47 AM
When we say the Lords prayer, we tell God to forgive us, in the same way that we forgive others.

It seems to say, if we condemn others, we are also asking God to condemn us in the same way.

So when your church athematized people like me for believing in salvation by grace through faith alone in Christ alone, without works, your church was inviting God's condemnation upon itself?

bybee
September 28th, 2015, 05:52 AM
When we say the Lords prayer, we tell God to forgive us, in the same way that we forgive others.

It seems to say, if we condemn others, we are also asking God to condemn us in the same way.

Those who do not ask for forgiveness are not forgiven.

Eric h
September 28th, 2015, 06:55 AM
So when your church athematized people like me for believing in salvation by grace through faith alone in Christ alone, without works, your church was inviting God's condemnation upon itself?

Sadly I agree with you, it seems there are people within all faith groups, willing to condemn others.

But individuals are not the church, and the church is not Jesus, and it is only the judgement of Jesus that counts.

Right Divider
September 28th, 2015, 08:52 AM
Sadly I agree with you, it seems there are people within all faith groups, willing to condemn others.

But individuals are not the church, and the church is not Jesus, and it is only the judgement of Jesus that counts.
Classic RCC confusion.

Individuals are the church, the church which is His body.

Cruciform
September 28th, 2015, 01:22 PM
Individuals are the church, the church which is His body.
This (http://scripturecatholic.com/the_church.html) is the Church.

Right Divider
September 28th, 2015, 03:28 PM
This (http://scripturecatholic.com/the_church.html) is the Church.
RCC propaganda.... plain and simple.

Cruciform
September 28th, 2015, 03:32 PM
RCC propaganda.... plain and simple.
The constant belief and teaching of the Christian Church from the beginning as testified to in Scripture---plain and simple.

Aimiel
September 28th, 2015, 03:44 PM
Muslims are NOT of The Body of Christ any more than Urantia fanatics are. They worship a false image of God that doesn't exist in reality. The Lord is accessible to everyone, but only through The Blood of Christ.

Right Divider
September 28th, 2015, 06:36 PM
The constant belief and teaching of the Christian Church from the beginning as testified to in Scripture---plain and simple.
That's just a fantasy of yours with no truth to support it.

Cruciform
September 28th, 2015, 09:27 PM
That's just a fantasy of yours with no truth to support it.
...except that provided back in Post #50. :yawn:

Lazy afternoon
September 29th, 2015, 01:22 AM
yes. I agree with you.

Is it what Catholics teach?

then why do they approve of their people to join the military?

It does not make sense at all.

BTW, it is not just Catholics that approve of killing their enemy. Most protestants are the same.

Did you ever consider that most believers today are as the believers we read of in the OT?

Tell me , have you even been filled with the Holy Spirit?

There is a distinction between those who have and those who have not and are not.

and there is a distinction between those who believe and have not, compared with those who do not truly believe but think they do because they believe some verses.

LA

Eric h
September 29th, 2015, 02:00 AM
Maybe the title of this thread could be, all Christians are your brothers and sisters. when we have worked that one out, maybe then, we shall see how Muslims can also be our brothers and sisters.

There is only one Jesus, our division does not make any sense to me.

bybee
September 29th, 2015, 07:17 AM
That's why I always say of any unbeliever, "...lest they repent." The door of grace is open to them as long as they live. But until they do so, they are unreconciled and at enmity with God, condemned right where they stand. Anyone can BECOME a child of God, but only by coming to Him through His Son, and that only through the Gospel of the grace of God, which - I say again - Rome anathematized centuries ago.

Well, "condemned right where they stand" would appear to preclude an opportunity for salvation? I wish to be a witness to those who are not at "enmity with God", necessarily, but rather maybe lost in confusion or influenced by negativity? Perhaps, whenever possible, a loving witness might move a heart or change a mind?

chrysostom
September 29th, 2015, 07:42 AM
Maybe the title of this thread could be, all Christians are your brothers and sisters.

that would leave us out

ok doser
September 29th, 2015, 09:46 AM
What did the Ghost of Christmas Present say in the '84 adaptation...

"Are they not of the human race?"

so were Himmler, Pohl, Glücks and Höss

go ahead - call them your brothers

Right Divider
September 29th, 2015, 10:11 AM
...except that provided back in Post #50. :yawn:
Your circular reasoning is NOT proof.

musterion
September 29th, 2015, 10:49 AM
Well, "condemned right where they stand" would appear to preclude an opportunity for salvation?

No. Only unless and until they believe the Gospel of the grace of God. And that's up to them.


I wish to be a witness to those who are not at "enmity with God", necessarily, but rather maybe lost in confusion or influenced by negativity?

Again, one is in Christ or one is not. Nothing else matters next to it. Not telling people of the grace of God in Christ, freely open to them even in the deep of their enmity, is the ultimate hatred.


Perhaps, whenever possible, a loving witness might move a heart or change a mind?

The power of God unto salvation is the Gospel message itself, not our presentation or delivery or demeanor. All the friendliness in the world is for naught if one shares a false gospel with them.

Jamie Gigliotti
September 29th, 2015, 10:52 AM
Welcome to your new, bigger, happier family under one false god. (http://christiannews.net/2015/09/25/i-unite-myself-pope-calls-muslims-brothers-and-sisters-in-message-at-st-patricks-cathedral/)
Undoubtedly there is danger in giving acceptance to Anything that goes against the truth that is found in Christ.

Those in Christ, connected to Him through faith in Him and the Holy Spirit are His body, brothers and sisters in Him, His church. Undoubtedly there are some who identify as Catholic who are in Christ.

Christians, Jews and Muslims attest to their being one God. Appealing to that thought to reach a Jew or Muslim for Christ is understandable. Using the word brother or sister definitely seems totally inappropriate. When you say I accept your faith even if you are totally convicted that their faith goes against the truth, are you not enabling the lie?

Cruciform
September 29th, 2015, 02:27 PM
Your circular reasoning...
Post your proof.

republicanchick
September 29th, 2015, 02:54 PM
Who knows? perhaps his words of conciliation will touch some Muslim Hearts for the good? Our hearts need to be reminded that God is Love.
Personally, I cannot subscribe to the idea the "Muslims" are my brothers and sisters, but, I do subscribe to the idea that all persons are my brothers and sisters. I am especially saddened by the women and children who have become refugees from war crazed countries. And I do/will contribute to help them.

thanks for this


:)

Only the violent jihadists are excluded from being Brother & sister... and that is by their OWN choosing, of course



+

republicanchick
September 29th, 2015, 02:55 PM
Your circular reasoning is NOT proof.

anticatholics have written the book on circular reasoning so called

bybee
September 29th, 2015, 05:41 PM
No. Only unless and until they believe the Gospel of the grace of God. And that's up to them.



Again, one is in Christ or one is not. Nothing else matters next to it. Not telling people of the grace of God in Christ, freely open to them even in the deep of their enmity, is the ultimate hatred.



The power of God unto salvation is the Gospel message itself, not our presentation or delivery or demeanor. All the friendliness in the world is for naught if one shares a false gospel with them.

If you are saying that I present a false Gospel you are in error.
I follow the witness of Christ.

Lazy afternoon
September 29th, 2015, 06:20 PM
No. Only unless and until they believe the Gospel of the grace of God. And that's up to them.



Again, one is in Christ or one is not. Nothing else matters next to it. Not telling people of the grace of God in Christ, freely open to them even in the deep of their enmity, is the ultimate hatred.



The power of God unto salvation is the Gospel message itself, not our presentation or delivery or demeanor. All the friendliness in the world is for naught if one shares a false gospel with them.

If one lives according to the gospel then even a minor doctrinal error will not impede them.

A perfect presentation of the gospel without living it will not be blessed with any help from the Lord to move by his Spirit upon the listeners.

LA

meshak
September 29th, 2015, 07:32 PM
Tell me , have you even been filled with the Holy Spirit?

Are you talking about speaking in tongues? No I don't speak in tongues.

I know we don't agree everything about following Jesus.

My faith in Jesus is very simple. I strive to follow what Jesus teaches as much as I can.

Jesus says we know them by their fruit.

We will produce godly fruit if we are sincerely seeking to be true to Jesus.

Jesus' core teaching is in the "love your enemy".

Joining the military is against this teaching. Killing your enemy is not of Jesus.

blessings.

Eric h
September 30th, 2015, 01:01 AM
Using the word brother or sister definitely seems totally inappropriate. When you say I accept your faith even if you are totally convicted that their faith goes against the truth, are you not enabling the lie?

The Jews are definitely God's chosen people, we are chosen by Christ, and in Islam, Allah chooses whom he wills, how does this make sense?

If we are chosen by one Jesus Christ, why are there so many denominations?

The only way for us to make any sense of this is to live the greatest commandments, and love all our neighbours, including our enemies.

Eric h
September 30th, 2015, 01:24 AM
Only the violent jihadists are excluded from being Brother & sister... and that is by their OWN choosing, of course



+

When I did my training to be a Street Pastor, a couple of things stood out.......

You will never look into the eyes of anyone who does not matter to God.

Look for Christ in all people.

Since then, I have come into contact with a lot of violence, not sure about any violent jihadists though. I can look at a dozen hooligans punching the living daylights out of each other, and I cannot see Christ in them.

However, being a pensioner with two lady pastors in their seventies, we walk in the middle of all this conflict, and somehow it calms and stops. When we have been with them for maybe 15 - 20 minutes, people then start shaking our hands, we are given hugs and thanked.

We can now see a kinder group of people, very different to a while ago, it is taking a risk to search for the good in all people, and I have been amazed at how my own attitude to violent people is changing.

I truthfully do not know how it happens, but instead of fear and worry, I have a profound sense of peace that is beyond my understanding, whilst being in places of conflict. but we do pray for peace, and while we are out on the streets there are people from several denominations back in the church praying for us.

Lazy afternoon
September 30th, 2015, 01:36 AM
Are you talking about speaking in tongues? No I don't speak in tongues.

I know we don't agree everything about following Jesus.

My faith in Jesus is very simple. I strive to follow what Jesus teaches as much as I can.

Jesus says we know them by their fruit.

We will produce godly fruit if we are sincerely seeking to be true to Jesus.

Jesus' core teaching is in the "love your enemy".

Joining the military is against this teaching. Killing your enemy is not of Jesus.

blessings.

No, not talking about speaking in tongues but some do when they are filled with the Holy Spirit.

LA

meshak
September 30th, 2015, 06:12 AM
No, not talking about speaking in tongues but some do when they are filled with the Holy Spirit.

LA

This is what third party should be claiming, not by ourselves, mainly by Jesus Christ..

Otherwise it will be self-righteousness.

blessings.

Jamie Gigliotti
September 30th, 2015, 08:03 AM
The Jews are definitely God's chosen people, we are chosen by Christ, and in Islam, Allah chooses whom he wills, how does this make sense?

If we are chosen by one Jesus Christ, why are there so many denominations?

The only way for us to make any sense of this is to live the greatest commandments, and love all our neighbours, including our enemies.

Loving them includes telling them the truth in love. Saying I accept your faith that is a lie, is partaking in it.

Jesus speaking to Jews:
"Jesus said to them, "If God were your Father, you would love me, for I came from God and I am here. I came not on my own accord but He sent me. ... You are of your Father the devil, and your will is to do your father's desires."" John 8:42, 44

meshak
September 30th, 2015, 12:49 PM
Loving them includes telling them the truth in love. Saying I accept your faith that is a lie, is partaking in it.

He did not say anything about accepting everyone's faith.

You are reading into more than what he is saying.

Eric h
September 30th, 2015, 04:34 PM
Loving them includes telling them the truth in love. Saying I accept your faith that is a lie, is partaking in it.


I feel that we should use our truth to change ourselves, rather than to try and change other people.

If we all recognised the truth in the same way, there would only be one Christian religion. I accept you and your faith, even if your faith is different to mine. It does not mean that I will believe as you do, and it does not mean that I have to batter you over the head with my truth either.

We should still be able to love each other as we love ourselves, despite our differences.

peace

Eric

Jamie Gigliotti
October 1st, 2015, 12:14 PM
I feel that we should use our truth to change ourselves, rather than to try and change other people.

If we all recognised the truth in the same way, there would only be one Christian religion. I accept you and your faith, even if your faith is different to mine. It does not mean that I will believe as you do, and it does not mean that I have to batter you over the head with my truth either.

We should still be able to love each other as we love ourselves, despite our differences.

peace

Eric
The only obective truth is God's truth. I have no truth of my own. What we have is our understanding of the truth, our understanding of Him. No we can not shove truth down people's throats but that is a far cry from enabling a lie.

Eric h
October 1st, 2015, 01:11 PM
The only obective truth is God's truth. I have no truth of my own.



We all claim God's Truth, Muslims, Jews and a thousand Christian denominations.


No we can not shove truth down people's throats but that is a far cry from enabling a lie.

If we have a thousand Christian denominations, does that mean 999 of them are enabling a lie? All of us are stuck with beliefs and faith, but it is what these beliefs inspire us to do that counts.

The 'truth must lead to justice, peace mercy, compassion and love, the lie must be anything that takes us away from these virtues.

Jamie Gigliotti
October 2nd, 2015, 03:38 PM
We all claim God's Truth, Muslims, Jews and a thousand Christian denominations.



If we have a thousand Christian denominations, does that mean 999 of them are enabling a lie? All of us are stuck with beliefs and faith, but it is what these beliefs inspire us to do that counts.

The 'truth must lead to justice, peace mercy, compassion and love, the lie must be anything that takes us away from these virtues.
If Islam's teachings were Christ's then there would be no contradiction. But there is, they are not.

Eric h
October 2nd, 2015, 09:17 PM
If Islam's teachings were Christ's then there would be no contradiction. But there is, they are not.

If you believe statistics, there could be over thirty thousand Christian denominations, we can't agree on truth, but which denomination has the truth

meshak
October 2nd, 2015, 09:25 PM
If Islam's teachings were Christ's then there would be no contradiction. But there is, they are not.

Jesus says to love your enemy.

Take a look at Christians at war against their enemy.

You don't see anything wrong with that?

egyptianmuslim
October 3rd, 2015, 04:09 AM
Welcome to your new, bigger, happier family under one false god. (http://christiannews.net/2015/09/25/i-unite-myself-pope-calls-muslims-brothers-and-sisters-in-message-at-st-patricks-cathedral/)

All believers are brotherhood, Quran tells. But you are informated from TV.

Eric h
October 3rd, 2015, 04:54 AM
Jesus says to love your enemy.

[/B]

I think this passage and the greatest commandments; must be missing in some Bibles.:sigh:

bybee
October 3rd, 2015, 05:00 AM
I think this passage and the greatest commandments; must be missing in some Bibles.:sigh:

Love does not necessarily mean "Be a doormat" or "Be a punching bag".

Truster
October 3rd, 2015, 05:04 AM
with God as Our Father
brothers all are we

Most have Satan as their father.

chrysostom
October 3rd, 2015, 05:17 AM
Most have Satan as their father.

you are sick

oatmeal
October 3rd, 2015, 05:31 AM
with God as Our Father
brothers all are we

God is the Father of all those people who He fathered.

I Peter 1:23

Who has God fathered? His sons and daughters. I John 3:1-2, Romans 8:14

When people choose to believe the words of the God and Father of the lord Jesus Christ, specifically, Romans 10:9-10, they receive the gift of salvation/eternal life/holy spirit/incorruptible seed.

Then they are literally God's sons, His children, but not a moment sooner.

Anyone not born again does not have eternal life, is not a child of God.

They need to hear the gospel of God, given the opportunity to believe God's words

chrysostom
October 3rd, 2015, 05:36 AM
God is the Father of all those people who He fathered.

I Peter 1:23

Who has God fathered? His sons and daughters. I John 3:1-2, Romans 8:14

When people choose to believe the words of the God and Father of the lord Jesus Christ, specifically, Romans 10:9-10, they receive the gift of salvation/eternal life/holy spirit/incorruptible seed.

Then they are literally God's sons, His children, but not a moment sooner.

God does not adopt you

meshak
October 3rd, 2015, 06:07 AM
Love does not necessarily mean "Be a doormat" or "Be a punching bag".

So Jesus is teaching to kill your enemy?

That's what the soldiers do at war.

meshak
October 3rd, 2015, 06:15 AM
I think this passage and the greatest commandments; must be missing in some Bibles.:sigh:

Obviously.

this is the core of Jesus' teaching. This teaching makes Christianity so different from other religion. But we don't appreciate it.

We stoop down to world's level.

Jesus says His followers are the light of the world. Yet most of us are no different from the world.

We are in the dark with the world.

Open our eyes, Lord.

Right Divider
October 3rd, 2015, 09:41 AM
God does not adopt you
I understand that being Biblically illiterate is an RCC tradition, but come on!
Gal 4:4-7 KJV But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law, (5) To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons. (6) And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father. (7) Wherefore thou art no more a servant, but a son; and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ.

egyptianmuslim
October 3rd, 2015, 03:02 PM
Most have Satan as their father.

True, most follow their mood

Angel4Truth
October 3rd, 2015, 03:05 PM
you are sick

1 John 3:10 By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious: anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother.

We are either children of God or children of the devil, we are all children of the devil before becoming children of God.

John 1:12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name,

Jamie Gigliotti
October 3rd, 2015, 10:59 PM
If you believe statistics, there could be over thirty thousand Christian denominations, we can't agree on truth, but which denomination has the truth

God's word has it all.

Jamie Gigliotti
October 3rd, 2015, 11:02 PM
Jesus says to love your enemy.

Take a look at Christians at war against their enemy.

You don't see anything wrong with that?

I love my enemy enough to tell them Jesus is way, the truth and the life. And with out Him they are in darkness. Jesus says those who does the will of His Father are His brothers and sisters.

egyptianmuslim
October 4th, 2015, 03:11 AM
I love my enemy enough to tell them Jesus is way, the truth and the life. And with out Him they are in darkness. Jesus says those who does the will of His Father are His brothers and sisters.

What does prevent me to be. a Muslim in Christ??? nothing
But I see many peoples here in TOL are not in Christ, Egyptian Christians mostly are in Christ and they have a good relation with Muslims.

egyptianmuslim
October 4th, 2015, 03:12 AM
Extremists are the problem.

meshak
October 4th, 2015, 06:18 AM
I love my enemy enough to tell them Jesus is way, the truth and the life. And with out Him they are in darkness. Jesus says those who does the will of His Father are His brothers and sisters.

Jesus does not endorse killing your enemy.

Killing your enemy is not telling the truth.

meshak
October 4th, 2015, 06:22 AM
Extremists are the problem.

Jesus commands His followers to love your enemy.

I know Muslims won't approve of Jesus' teaching of love your enemy.

It shows in their actions by engaging in war.

So you cannot preach to Jesus' followers.

Aimiel
October 4th, 2015, 06:56 AM
What does prevent me to be. a Muslim in Christ??? nothing
But I see many peoples here in TOL are not in Christ, Egyptian Christians mostly are in Christ and they have a good relation with Muslims.You cannot serve The One True God and the false god of the Koran also. The Koran is NOT from God. It is from below.

Jamie Gigliotti
October 4th, 2015, 07:06 AM
What does prevent me to be. a Muslim in Christ??? nothing
But I see many peoples here in TOL are not in Christ, Egyptian Christians mostly are in Christ and they have a good relation with Muslims.

I have nothing but love for all Muslims, God loves all and calls us too. I have nothing but compassion for those who don't know the love of Jesus. This world is so dark without His love for everyone. I know there are those who identify as Muslims culturally to try and reach others for Christ.

egyptianmuslim
October 4th, 2015, 10:47 AM
Why I'm as a Muslim follow Jesus because I see that Jesus' s method is good for fighting Satan inside myself. Jesus by himself did not add any religion but he directed the people how to do their religion and to fight Satan.

Angel4Truth
October 4th, 2015, 11:18 AM
What does prevent me to be. a Muslim in Christ??? nothing
But I see many peoples here in TOL are not in Christ, Egyptian Christians mostly are in Christ and they have a good relation with Muslims.

There is no such thing as a "muslim IN Christ"

egyptianmuslim
October 4th, 2015, 02:26 PM
There is no such thing as a "muslim IN Christ"

Judio-Christianity was the religion of apostles.

Angel4Truth
October 4th, 2015, 02:28 PM
Judio-Christianity was the religion of apostles.

Again, there is no such thing as a 'muslim in Christ', if they were in Christ, they would be a christian. John 14:6 Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me.



1 John 3:10 By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious: anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother.

We are either children of God or children of the devil, we are all children of the devil before becoming children of God.

John 1:12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name,

Have you received Christ as your Lord and Savior? Have you followed the gospel of salvation? 1 Corinthians 15:1-4

"Now I make known to you brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand, by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain. For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, and that He was buried, and that He was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures . . . "

Does this apply to you?

Romans 10:9-10 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation

egyptianmuslim
October 4th, 2015, 03:37 PM
Again, there is no such thing as a 'muslim in Christ', if they were in Christ, they would be a christian. John 14:6 Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me.




Have you received Christ as your Lord and Savior? Have you followed the gospel of salvation? 1 Corinthians 15:1-4

"Now I make known to you brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand, by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain. For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, and that He was buried, and that He was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures . . . "

Does this apply to you?

Romans 10:9-10 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation

Jesus was a Jew , I don't say that I'm in Paul.

Angel4Truth
October 4th, 2015, 04:34 PM
Jesus was a Jew , I don't say that I'm in Paul.

Jesus is God, and are you calling yourself a muslim in a jew now? Before you asked if you could not be called a muslim in Christ.

meshak
October 4th, 2015, 05:01 PM
Why I'm as a Muslim follow Jesus because I see that Jesus' s method is good for fighting Satan inside myself. Jesus by himself did not add any religion but he directed the people how to do their religion and to fight Satan.

Do you know that Jesus teaches to love your enemy?

BTW, not all Christians are Trinitarians.

aikido7
October 4th, 2015, 07:18 PM
My experience studying Islam and other faith traditions has shown me that Americans are basically illiterate when it comes to religion. Even their own concept of Christianity is too often narrow and one-dimensional.

There was a real Jesus and there was a real Mohammed. The early followers of both men twisted the original message for their own ends.

When Jesus died he resurrected and ascended. When Mohammed died he was taken to Heaven on a white stallion.

Both examples were ways in which their followers chose to frame their deaths.

Jamie Gigliotti
October 4th, 2015, 07:30 PM
My experience studying Islam and other faith traditions has shown me that Americans are basically illiterate when it comes to religion. Even their own concept of Christianity is too often narrow and one-dimensional.

There was a real Jesus and there was a real Mohammed. The early followers of both men twisted the original message for their own ends.

When Jesus died he resurrected and ascended. When Mohammed died he was taken to Heaven on a white stallion.

Both examples were ways in which their followers chose to frame their deaths.
Jesus's disciples were murdered because they refused to recant the testimony of what they saw with their own eyes. That Jesus was resurrected and that He proved that He was everything He said He was.

Jamie Gigliotti
October 4th, 2015, 07:33 PM
Why I'm as a Muslim follow Jesus because I see that Jesus' s method is good for fighting Satan inside myself. Jesus by himself did not add any religion but he directed the people how to do their religion and to fight Satan.
His Spirit in us, His love in us, His truth in us is His method.

Eric h
October 4th, 2015, 07:48 PM
Have you received Christ as your Lord and Savior? Have you followed the gospel of salvation? 1 Corinthians 15:1-4



The Parable of the Good Samaritan starts by asking, what must I do to inherit eternal life? And it ends with, do as the Samaritan did. The expert in the law. belonged to God's chosen people, the Good Samaritan was outside of God's chosen people. Presumably, the Samaritan did not follow Jesus, so how could he be saved?

It seems that at the time of Jesus, Samaritans and Jews, had the same kind of relationship as Muslims and Christians have today.

Only Jesus died for the forgiveness of sins, it is only Jesus, who will judge the living and the dead. We cannot possibly judge in the same way that Jesus will judge.

Luke 10

25 On one occasion an expert in the law stood up to test Jesus. “Teacher,” he asked, “what must I do to inherit eternal life?”

26 “What is written in the Law?” he replied. “How do you read it?”

27 He answered, “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind’[c]; and, ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’[d]”

28 “You have answered correctly,” Jesus replied. “Do this and you will live.”

29 But he wanted to justify himself, so he asked Jesus, “And who is my neighbor?”

30 In reply Jesus said: “A man was going down from Jerusalem to Jericho, when he was attacked by robbers. They stripped him of his clothes, beat him and went away, leaving him half dead. 31 A priest happened to be going down the same road, and when he saw the man, he passed by on the other side. 32 So too, a Levite, when he came to the place and saw him, passed by on the other side. 33 But a Samaritan, as he traveled, came where the man was; and when he saw him, he took pity on him. 34 He went to him and bandaged his wounds, pouring on oil and wine. Then he put the man on his own donkey, brought him to an inn and took care of him. 35 The next day he took out two denarii[e] and gave them to the innkeeper. ‘Look after him,’ he said, ‘and when I return, I will reimburse you for any extra expense you may have.’

36 “Which of these three do you think was a neighbor to the man who fell into the hands of robbers?”

37 The expert in the law replied, “The one who had mercy on him.”

Jesus told him, “Go and do likewise.”

egyptianmuslim
October 4th, 2015, 09:42 PM
Jesus is God, and are you calling yourself a muslim in a jew now? Before you asked if you could not be called a muslim in Christ.

l said many time that Jesus did not establish or develop a new religion ....but a mode of life that grows the peace and love between people also he was against hypocrites and told the people not to forget the majors of the religion like mercifullness.
I can not say that I'm a muslim in jews because they practicising different rituals.

Lazy afternoon
October 5th, 2015, 12:46 AM
When Jesus died he resurrected and ascended. When Mohammed died he was taken to Heaven on a white stallion.

Both examples were ways in which their followers chose to frame their deaths.

Christians have proof that Christ rose from the dead and went into Heaven.

What proof do you have that Mohammed did?

Should be an interesting exercise for you,

LA

egyptianmuslim
October 5th, 2015, 04:17 AM
Christians have proof that Christ rose from the dead and went into Heaven.

What proof do you have that Mohammed did?

Should be an interesting exercise for you,

LA

You have no any living proof except your Holy book that isn't holy in the eyes of others.

Aimiel
October 5th, 2015, 04:25 AM
You have no any living proof except your Holy book that isn't holy in the eyes of others.Actually, the four gospels, alone, provide more proof of Jesus' actual existence than we have for any other figure in antiquity. The harmony of the four authors as well as their own disparity provides more proof than you might suspect. Despising the Truths provided to Christians simply because you've been hoodwinked by words of demons (Koran) doesn't discount the Truth or the proofs provided in The Holy Scriptures.

Jamie Gigliotti
October 5th, 2015, 04:42 AM
l said many time that Jesus did not establish or develop a new religion ....but a mode of life that grows the peace and love between people also he was against hypocrites and told the people not to forget the majors of the religion like mercifullness.
I can not say that I'm a muslim in jews because they practicising different rituals.
Not a new religion, but a revelation of the love and power of God, and Kingdom of God by what Jesus said and did. I have found in personally trusting Him; His love and power in my life confirms everything that He said and did.

aikido7
October 5th, 2015, 07:37 AM
Jesus's disciples were murdered because they refused to recant the testimony of what they saw with their own eyes. That Jesus was resurrected and that He proved that He was everything He said He was.Jesus offered and granted salvation to many--long before his blood was spilled on the cross.

And I see a Jesus in the New Testament who did not believe in a blood sacrifice for sin. He and John the Baptizer saw repentance as the key, not a sacrifice. The theological idea of "dying for humanity's sins" is a later overlay placed upon Jesus after he died.

When Jesus quoted Hosea he talked of a God who advocated "mercy, not sacrifice." And he openly confronted the Temple rites in Jerusalem.

aikido7
October 5th, 2015, 07:42 AM
Christians have proof that Christ rose from the dead and went into Heaven.

What proof do you have that Mohammed did?

Should be an interesting exercise for you,

LAThe truth of every religion comes from the life and deeds of their founders. My only proof is that all religions use metaphors for describing the proof of their beliefs. Myth and metaphor are what human beings use when they attempt to describe an infinite God.

Mohammed rode a horse, Jesus rose from the dead and the baby Buddha emerged from his mother's womb talking, walking and preaching.

All of these metaphors refer to the importance of their founders. In my view, they are not to be understood as literal.

I believe in the truth of the resurrection. I just don't think its ultimate meaning has anything to do with a resuscitated body. Even Paul denied a bodily resurrection. His theology describes a "glorified body" not a physical one.

The resurrection to me is that Jesus's power and presence can still be felt and seen, thousands of years after his death.

Jamie Gigliotti
October 5th, 2015, 10:32 AM
Jesus offered and granted salvation to many--long before his blood was spilled on the cross.

And I see a Jesus in the New Testament who did not believe in a blood sacrifice for sin. He and John the Baptizer saw repentance as the key, not a sacrifice. The theological idea of "dying for humanity's sins" is a later overlay placed upon Jesus after he died.

When Jesus quoted Hosea he talked of a God who advocated "mercy, not sacrifice." And he openly confronted the Temple rites in Jerusalem.
Jesus's words: "the Son of Man will be delivered up to be crucified" Matthew 26:2
"The Son of Man goes as it was written of Him" Matthew 25:24
"This is the blood of my covenant which is poured out for the many for the forgiveness of sins." Matthew 25:28

egyptianmuslim
October 5th, 2015, 10:38 AM
Actually, the four gospels, alone, provide more proof of Jesus' actual existence than we have for any other figure in antiquity. The harmony of the four authors as well as their own disparity provides more proof than you might suspect. Despising the Truths provided to Christians simply because you've been hoodwinked by words of demons (Koran) doesn't discount the Truth or the proofs provided in The Holy Scriptures.

Quran does noy deny raising of Jesus to heaven.

Aimiel
October 5th, 2015, 01:32 PM
Jesus offered and granted salvation to many--long before his blood was spilled on the cross.

And I see a Jesus in the New Testament who did not believe in a blood sacrifice for sin. He and John the Baptizer saw repentance as the key, not a sacrifice. The theological idea of "dying for humanity's sins" is a later overlay placed upon Jesus after he died.

When Jesus quoted Hosea he talked of a God who advocated "mercy, not sacrifice." And he openly confronted the Temple rites in Jerusalem.Hogwash. If Jesus did not have to die for sins, He wouldn't have said that His Blood would provide for our ransom and He would not have died. It's that simple. He prayed that 'this cup' (His sacrifice) would pass, so that He wouldn't have to drink it (death) but God required His sacrifice. It's the very foundation of Christianity. Without His Blood you have no reason to call yourself: "Christian." Jesus said so, Himself.

Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.

Without His Blood you're DEAD. :dead:

Aimiel
October 5th, 2015, 01:33 PM
Quran does noy deny raising of Jesus to heaven.The Quran denies that Christ is God's Son. It denies that His Blood is necessary for salvation. It denies everything about Christ. It has nothing to do with God or Jesus. It is demonic doctrine, plain and simple. It is designed to keep people from being saved from the destruction of hell.

egyptianmuslim
October 5th, 2015, 03:16 PM
The Quran denies that Christ is God's Son. It denies that His Blood is necessary for salvation. It denies everything about Christ. It has nothing to do with God or Jesus. It is demonic doctrine, plain and simple. It is designed to keep people from being saved from the destruction of hell.

Obviousely you don't know Quran, Jesus has a top place in the heaven, Mary(puh) is most famous name of muslims girles

Aimiel
October 5th, 2015, 06:30 PM
Mary is a sinner, just like you and me.

Angel4Truth
October 5th, 2015, 06:36 PM
Quran does noy deny raising of Jesus to heaven.


The issue of the crucifixion and death of Jesus (Isa) is important to Muslims as they believe that Jesus will return before the end of time. Muslims believe Jesus was not crucified, but was raised bodily to heaven by God, a belief also found in the Gospel of Basilides,[1][2][3][4] the text of which is lost save for reports of it by other early scholars like Origen (c.185 – c.254). Basilides (Βασιλείδης), was a leading theologian of Gnostic tendencies, who had taught in Alexandria in the second quarter of the second century. His teachings were condemned as heretical by Irenaeus of Lyons (c.130 – c.200),[5] and by Hippolytus of Rome (c. 170 - c.236),[6] although they had been evaluated more positively by Clement of Alexandria (c.150 – c.215).[7] However, this view is disregarded by mainstream Christianity which only accepts the 4 gospels contained in the New Testament as genuine, the other 28, seldom publicised, are viewed as heretical.

Depending on the interpretation of the following verse, Muslim scholars have abstracted different opinions. Some believe that in the Biblical account, Jesus's crucifixion did not last long enough for him to die, while others opine that God gave someone Jesus's appearance, causing everyone to believe that Jesus was crucified (majority view). A third explanation could be that Jesus was nailed to a cross, but as his body is immortal he did not "die" or was not "crucified" [to death]; it only appeared so. In opposition to the second and third foregoing proposals, yet others maintain that God does not use deceit and therefore they contend that crucifixion just did not occur. The basis of all of these beliefs is the following verse in the Qur'an:

That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah";- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:-
Nay, Allah raised him up unto Himself; and Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise;-
— Qur'an, sura 4 (An-Nisa) ayat 157-158[8] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_view_of_Jesus'_death


Muslims teach that Christ was never crucified. They deny the very mode of salvation.

Greg Jennings
October 5th, 2015, 08:55 PM
The Quran denies that Christ is God's Son. It denies that His Blood is necessary for salvation. It denies everything about Christ. It has nothing to do with God or Jesus. It is demonic doctrine, plain and simple. It is designed to keep people from being saved from the destruction of hell.

Can you provide proof that your faith is any better than egyptianmuslim's? I'd be willing to bet that you've been a Christian your whole life, as EM's likely been a Muslim his whole life. You've both grown up believing that your respective faiths are the right ones. However, can you offer any proof of that? If you can't then you should quit belittling his beliefs as they are as equally valid as your own

Cruciform
October 5th, 2015, 09:49 PM
Mary is a sinner, just like you and me.
Not quite (http://www.cuf.org/FileDownloads/immaconc.pdf).

Omniskeptical
October 5th, 2015, 09:58 PM
Not quite (http://www.cuf.org/FileDownloads/immaconc.pdf).She was not sinless. The Wedding at Cana is proof of this, but I have to agree with Cruciform. Having her virginity up to the time when was full grown is no easy task. And then if she were also a wrongdoer, she would have considered infanticide. She didn't, evidently.

egyptianmuslim
October 5th, 2015, 10:38 PM
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_view_of_Jesus'_death


Muslims teach that Christ was never crucified. They deny the very mode of salvation.

True,, but crucification was made . Salvation from sin in Islam is by reprent and by increasing good works, but not by work of others

Cruciform
October 5th, 2015, 10:44 PM
She was not sinless.
I have to side with Christ's one historic Church (http://scripturecatholic.com/the_church.html) on this, which has unanimously believed and taught the Immaculate Conception of Mary (http://www.catholicbridge.com/catholic/mary_conceived_without_sin_immaculate_conception.p hp) from the beginning.


The Wedding at Cana is proof of this...
In what way, exactly...?


Having her virginity up to the time when was full grown...
In fact, by God's grace, Mary maintained her virginity throughout her entire life (http://www.catholic.com/magazine/articles/the-case-for-marys-perpetual-virginity), as even the principle leaders of the Protestant Reformation---Luther, Zwingli, Calvin---all firmly believed and passionately defended.



Gaudium de veritate,

Cruciform
+T+

egyptianmuslim
October 5th, 2015, 10:44 PM
Mary is a sinner, just like you and me.

Not true, Mary is clean read SURA MARIUM in Quran to know how much we respect her.

Lon
October 5th, 2015, 11:53 PM
Jesus was a party animal and celebrated life in the midst of those who society called "evil."


:doh: :nono: Jesus was not a 'party animal' for the same Jesus that was found with publicans and sinners had the Apostle Paul pen "Be NOT drunk with wine, but be filled with the Spirit (Himself).

...one of the main reasons of my personal mission: trying to set up fundamentalists on blind dates with Jesus.
:nono: Ephesians 5:18-20 The Jesus who was NOT the party animal is the right one.

patrick jane
October 6th, 2015, 12:06 AM
In fact, by God's grace, Mary maintained her virginity throughout her entire life (http://www.catholic.com/magazine/articles/the-case-for-marys-perpetual-virginity), as even the principle leaders of the Protestant Reformation---Luther, Zwingli, Calvin---all firmly believed and passionately defended.


Where does the Bible say Mary "maintained her virginity her entire life" ?

Did Jesus have siblings ?

aikido7
October 6th, 2015, 12:26 AM
:doh: :nono: Jesus was not a 'party animal' for the same Jesus that was found with publicans and sinners had the Apostle Paul pen "Be NOT drunk with wine, but be filled with the Spirit (Himself).

:nono: Ephesians 5:18-20 The Jesus who was NOT the party animal is the right one.Song, drink and celebration were characteristic of Jesus.

May I cut-and-paste some scriptural evidence of this fact?

"The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, 'Here is a glutton and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and sinners.' But wisdom is proved right by her deeds."

Most people couldn't stand Jesus. Just as you do as well, apparently.

Jesus was a socially promiscuous party animal. And it got him killed.... Please don't kill him again.

Jamie Gigliotti
October 6th, 2015, 09:55 AM
Can you provide proof that your faith is any better than egyptianmuslim's? I'd be willing to bet that you've been a Christian your whole life, as EM's likely been a Muslim his whole life. You've both grown up believing that your respective faiths are the right ones. However, can you offer any proof of that? If you can't then you should quit belittling his beliefs as they are as equally valid as your own
I had Christian beliefs long before I met Jesus, through His Spirit. Idealogy is nice, but Jesus is awesome, He changed my life and many others.

Jamie Gigliotti
October 6th, 2015, 09:58 AM
True,, but crucification was made . Salvation from sin in Islam is by reprent and by increasing good works, but not by work of others

Christ in us by our faith and His reconciling work on the cross and our repentence, turning to him, allows us to do good, by His love and the humility that we need Him. As much as you try on your own you can not love like Christ without Him.

Jamie Gigliotti
October 6th, 2015, 10:00 AM
I have to side with Christ's one historic Church (http://scripturecatholic.com/the_church.html) on this, which has unanimously believed and taught the Immaculate Conception of Mary (http://www.catholicbridge.com/catholic/mary_conceived_without_sin_immaculate_conception.p hp) from the beginning.


In what way, exactly...?


In fact, by God's grace, Mary maintained her virginity throughout her entire life (http://www.catholic.com/magazine/articles/the-case-for-marys-perpetual-virginity), as even the principle leaders of the Protestant Reformation---Luther, Zwingli, Calvin---all firmly believed and passionately defended.



Gaudium de veritate,

Cruciform
+T+
God says we all fall short and need Him.

Lon
October 6th, 2015, 10:08 AM
Song, drink and celebration were characteristic of Jesus.

May I cut-and-paste some scriptural evidence of this fact?

"The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, 'Here is a glutton and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and sinners.' But wisdom is proved right by her deeds."

Most people couldn't stand Jesus. Just as you do as well, apparently.

Jesus was a socially promiscuous party animal. And it got him killed.... Please don't kill him again.
False accusation, the same as what you are doing. Matthew 11:18,19 (what do BOTH verses have in common? Oh yeah, the 'accusations' they record are both blatant lies, and here you are blatantly repeating one of them!)As I said, HE had Paul write NOT to get drunk and NOT to over-eat. Gluttony and drunkenness are listed as sins. 1 Corinthians 6:10 If your Jesus sinned, He couldn't save you. Hebrews 4:15 You are woefully negligent in your scripture reading and ignorant in your understanding. Whoever you 'think' you know, is not Him. He is some made-up figment of your imagination thus an idol. Leviticus 26:1

If you really knew Him and loved Him, you'd have in the past and currenty be pouring through His love letter (the Bible) to you and coming to understand Him and know Him, not the figment in your imagination.
You need to be introduced to the real Jesus Matthew 7:21-23 so that all these scriptures readily come to mind and correct your horrible perception. You have to know Him, to set anybody up with Him, otherwise you are just a blow-hard wanna-be that is lying about your contacts with important people you don't even know.

Right Divider
October 6th, 2015, 11:16 AM
Song, drink and celebration were characteristic of Jesus.

May I cut-and-paste some scriptural evidence of this fact?

"The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, 'Here is a glutton and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and sinners.' But wisdom is proved right by her deeds."

Most people couldn't stand Jesus. Just as you do as well, apparently.

Jesus was a socially promiscuous party animal. And it got him killed.... Please don't kill him again.
Dumbest post I've ever seen on TOL.

Cruciform
October 6th, 2015, 03:25 PM
God says we all fall short and need Him.
Already answered here (http://www.catholicbridge.com/catholic/mary_conceived_without_sin_immaculate_conception.p hp).

Aimiel
October 6th, 2015, 04:13 PM
Not just dumb, but sheer blasphemy. Making Christ out to be a drunkard and a glutton is ignorant. Jesus never sinned. He was 'said' to be such, but many lies have been told about Him over the millennia. They simply aren't true. He is. One of His Names is: "Faithful and True."

Omniskeptical
October 7th, 2015, 07:58 AM
In what way, exactly...?Interfering with God's will. His time hadn't even come during celebration. You can't argue that she didn't wrong him there.



In fact, by God's grace, Mary maintained her virginity WRONG, she accomplished what any women could have done, but it is difficult to do so.

Lazy afternoon
October 8th, 2015, 04:17 AM
Song, drink and celebration were characteristic of Jesus.

May I cut-and-paste some scriptural evidence of this fact?

"The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, 'Here is a glutton and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and sinners.' But wisdom is proved right by her deeds."

Most people couldn't stand Jesus. Just as you do as well, apparently.

Jesus was a socially promiscuous party animal. And it got him killed.... Please don't kill him again.

Using the accusations of the wicked as if what they said is truth, is itself, a wicked thing to do.

LA

musterion
October 8th, 2015, 04:48 AM
Using the accusations of the wicked as if what they said is truth, is itself, a wicked thing to do.

LA

Very true.

aikido7
October 17th, 2015, 09:16 AM
False accusation, the same as what you are doing. Matthew 11:18,19 (what do BOTH verses have in common? Oh yeah, the 'accusations' they record are both blatant lies, and here you are blatantly repeating one of them!)As I said, HE had Paul write NOT to get drunk and NOT to over-eat. Gluttony and drunkenness are listed as sins. 1 Corinthians 6:10 If your Jesus sinned, He couldn't save you. Hebrews 4:15 You are woefully negligent in your scripture reading and ignorant in your understanding. Whoever you 'think' you know, is not Him. He is some made-up figment of your imagination thus an idol. Leviticus 26:1

If you really knew Him and loved Him, you'd have in the past and currenty be pouring through His love letter (the Bible) to you and coming to understand Him and know Him, not the figment in your imagination.
You need to be introduced to the real Jesus Matthew 7:21-23 so that all these scriptures readily come to mind and correct your horrible perception. You have to know Him, to set anybody up with Him, otherwise you are just a blow-hard wanna-be that is lying about your contacts with important people you don't even know.I should have been more clear.

I was referring to Jesus only. Paul wrote his letters a couple of decades after the crucifixion.

He was not interested in Jesus in any historical sense--other than saying he was "born of a woman" and was "buried." Paul seems unaware of a virgin birth or an empty tomb tradition.

I am trying to get across the "scandal" that was the authentic, earth-walking Jesus. The scholarly consensus is that he disturbed many because of his behavior--coming from his outreach to the unreachable and his public flouting of deeply-held cultural norms.

If all we do is focus on the theology of Jesus as Savior, virgin-born, Son of God, etc. we miss the actual, real, historical context of Jesus in his own culture in the first century.

aikido7
October 17th, 2015, 09:23 AM
Using the accusations of the wicked as if what they said is truth, is itself, a wicked thing to do.

LAYour post makes no sense to me. It sounds to me like you are judging, deeming to know the difference between the righteous and the unrighteous.

Is it "wicked" to regard as true the voice of the crowd which said of Jesus's death "...may his blood be on us and our children!"?

The truth is that Jesus was seen as a disruptive and blasphemous presence.

The truth--like it or not--is that he was seen as "a glutton and a drunkard." And there were good, historical reasons why his critics said what they did.
And they are recorded in the Bible.

I myself have no trouble wondering:

"Why did they single him out as someone who drank and ate a lot?"
"Why are these savage attacks on Jesus preserved by the gospel writers?"
"Why did the authors believe they were important to remember and write down?"

Knowing a bit more now of the religious, cultural and political context of the time informs my interpretation of the absolute scandal Jesus of Nazareth was to his critics.

aikido7
October 17th, 2015, 09:33 AM
Dumbest post I've ever seen on TOL.First of all, I am not a "Christ hater." For me Christ is the norm of the Bible and I have spent most of my time on TOL in getting Jesus back into the discussion.

Any careful reader of the Bible knows the way Jesus was regarded in his day. The truth of history still comes through Scripture and can inform us about the day-to-day life Jesus and his followers experienced.

Just because I pass along an interpretation as to why Jesus was criticized as a "drunkard" or a "glutton" does not mean I agree with his critics!

How does that make any sense at all?

I think you read my comments with inattention and to reinforce your own prejudices.

You owe me a Bible-based explanation why you think my comments are "the dumbest post [you've] ever seen on TOL."

aikido7
October 17th, 2015, 09:54 AM
Not just dumb, but sheer blasphemy. Making Christ out to be a drunkard and a glutton is ignorant. Jesus never sinned. He was 'said' to be such, but many lies have been told about Him over the millennia. They simply aren't true. He is. One of His Names is: "Faithful and True."I don't believe you understood me.

Let me be clear. The truth is this: Jesus was seen as a blasphemous disturbance and many of his critics called him names (just like "critics" on TOL do with other posters).

These criticisms of Jesus are written down in the New Testament.
Because they are in the Bible I acknowledge, that means I have to take them seriously.

I am not disagreeing with you about the lies told about Jesus. Good people who were doing the best they could with their information and beliefs had different views about Jesus:

Some said "I see God, let's follow him."
Others said "This guy is boring, I'm outta here."
Others said "This guy is a threat, let's kill him."
Many said "This guy celebrates openly with the human trash."
And others said "This guy is a drunkard and a glutton."

You assert that one of Jesus's names was "Faithful and True." I have never read this anywhere before, but I will never feel or claim this opinion of yours is "wrong."

Why is it--seriously--that you judge me as wicked just because I pass along the possible motivations why wicked people in Jesus's day did what they did?

aikido7
October 17th, 2015, 09:58 AM
If you really knew Him and loved Him, you'd have in the past and currenty be pouring through His love letter (the Bible) to you and coming to understand Him and know Him, not the figment in your imagination. So because your opinion is that I don't study the Bible that then means I don't know and love Jesus?

Please don't judge me. Try to see the logs in your own eyes before you deem to point out the speck of sawdust in your neighbor's.

You are making a lot of guesses about me and you are guessing wrong.

Puppet
October 17th, 2015, 09:07 PM
Welcome to your new, bigger, happier family under one false god. (http://christiannews.net/2015/09/25/i-unite-myself-pope-calls-muslims-brothers-and-sisters-in-message-at-st-patricks-cathedral/)

Just hang in there, the Catholics have something up their sleeves:

http://i.imgur.com/idi12j9.jpg

Eric h
October 18th, 2015, 03:23 AM
I find it a great sadness when Christians, Catholics, Orthodox , etc, cannot act towards each other as brothers and sisters.

Aimiel
November 2nd, 2015, 09:35 PM
It is sad, but will one day be made perfect.

patrick jane
November 2nd, 2015, 10:25 PM
I think a lot of Catholics just think they're Catholic because maybe they were baptized at a Catholic church or they went with it because it was popular and easy. I think many Catholics don't attend church and stopped reading the Bible, resting on their false security of claiming to be Catholic. I thought I was Catholic most of my life.

Eric h
November 3rd, 2015, 02:08 AM
It is sad, but will one day be made perfect.

I pray regularly with Christians from a number of denominations, this breaks down so many barriers.