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View Full Version : Why run away from Science and trail and error?



Jamie Gigliotti
August 2nd, 2015, 11:29 AM
Some things in life have to tried to see if they are good. Some things need to be experienced for yourself to determine it's merrits. I can talk all day on TOL or anywhere else that the Lord is Good, but until you experience Him it sounds like gibberish. Scientists come to the point that the only way to find out the truth of an hypothesis is trail without fear of failing. You can't believe me or others, ok. But you must admit to yourself you will never know if He is good unless you try Him on for size. You may say but I don't want to know. Or I don't care to know, or just no thanks. In that case you won't know, nor will you exercise the only way you can find out. Let science be your guide.

Stuu
August 4th, 2015, 03:01 AM
And what do you say to all those who have 'experienced' this god of yours and rejected it as a delusion?

I suppose they weren't True Scotsmen.

Stuart

Jamie Gigliotti
August 4th, 2015, 07:07 AM
And what do you say to all those who have 'experienced' this god of yours and rejected it as a delusion?

I suppose they weren't True Scotsmen.

Stuart

Either they didn't experience Him, or they lost or are losing the 'good fight of faith'. We are extremely prideful creatures and it's hard to bow and follow. I have had to fight mine and still am. We like to exercise our freedom of our own personal kingdom.

Stuu
August 4th, 2015, 12:25 PM
Either they didn't experience Him, or they lost or are losing the 'good fight of faith'. We are extremely prideful creatures and it's hard to bow and follow. I have had to fight mine and still am. We like to exercise our freedom of our own personal kingdom.
I see I was right about your logical fallacy.

Stuart

Jamie Gigliotti
August 5th, 2015, 12:16 PM
I see I was right about your logical fallacy.

Stuart

Or experience, because after i found him, I did walk away for a time because of my pride.

Stuu
August 6th, 2015, 02:52 AM
Or experience, because after i found him, I did walk away for a time because of my pride.
Perhaps you should have walked away because of your intelligence.

Stuart

Jamie Gigliotti
August 6th, 2015, 11:12 AM
Perhaps you should have walked away because of your intelligence.

Stuart

'My intelligence' is an aspect of my pride.

Jose Fly
August 6th, 2015, 11:55 AM
Some things in life have to tried to see if they are good. Some things need to be experienced for yourself to determine it's merrits. I can talk all day on TOL or anywhere else that the Lord is Good, but until you experience Him it sounds like gibberish. Scientists come to the point that the only way to find out the truth of an hypothesis is trail without fear of failing. You can't believe me or others, ok. But you must admit to yourself you will never know if He is good unless you try Him on for size. You may say but I don't want to know. Or I don't care to know, or just no thanks. In that case you won't know, nor will you exercise the only way you can find out. Let science be your guide.

Funny you should say that, because that's the sort of approach I applied. It wasn't very long before I concluded that my prayers were just me talking to myself and if things were going to happen, I had to do them myself, no gods required.

George Affleck
August 6th, 2015, 10:39 PM
...you will never know if He is good unless you try Him on for size.

Jamie,

Don't take this the wrong way but...
This is rubbish!

In fact, the flies are already attracted to it.

Stuu
August 7th, 2015, 02:34 AM
'My intelligence' is an aspect of my pride.
Just another reason not to be a christian.

Stuart

Stripe
August 7th, 2015, 07:38 AM
Some things in life have to tried to see if they are good. Some things need to be experienced for yourself to determine it's merrits. I can talk all day on TOL or anywhere else that the Lord is Good, but until you experience Him it sounds like gibberish. Scientists come to the point that the only way to find out the truth of an hypothesis is trail without fear of failing. You can't believe me or others, ok. But you must admit to yourself you will never know if He is good unless you try Him on for size. You may say but I don't want to know. Or I don't care to know, or just no thanks. In that case you won't know, nor will you exercise the only way you can find out. Let science be your guide.

Don't do drugs, kids.

Jamie Gigliotti
August 7th, 2015, 09:36 AM
Funny you should say that, because that's the sort of approach I applied. It wasn't very long before I concluded that my prayers were just me talking to myself and if things were going to happen, I had to do them myself, no gods required.
I have no idea if your trying out Jesus included your humility, your surrender, your sorrow for your sin, your devotion and your praise. It is preached that only belief that he exists is needed for His saving presence, but there is much more to it. He wants all of our love, all of us. If you study His word and you seek Him and ask that He reveal Himself and His goodness and love to you in humility and faith He will.

Jamie Gigliotti
August 7th, 2015, 09:41 AM
Jamie,

Don't take this the wrong way but...
This is rubbish!

In fact, the flies are already attracted to it.
So this is rubbish?
"Taste and see that the Lord is good! Blessed is the man who takes refuge in Him." Psalm 34:8

Jose Fly
August 7th, 2015, 10:23 AM
I have no idea if your trying out Jesus included your humility, your surrender, your sorrow for your sin, your devotion and your praise. It is preached that only belief that he exists is needed for His saving presence, but there is much more to it. He wants all of our love, all of us. If you study His word and you seek Him and ask that He reveal Himself and His goodness and love to you in humility and faith He will.

How is that trial and error? That's basically saying in order to believe in Christianity, you have to first believe in Christianity with all your heart.

Have you applied this approach to other religions?

Angel4Truth
August 7th, 2015, 11:09 AM
And what do you say to all those who have 'experienced' this god of yours and rejected it as a delusion?

I suppose they weren't True Scotsmen.

Stuart

How does one "experience" knowing someone, then be able to claim to have never met them?

Jamie Gigliotti
August 7th, 2015, 11:35 AM
How is that trial and error? That's basically saying in order to believe in Christianity, you have to first believe in Christianity with all your heart.

Have you applied this approach to other religions?
Because it's all about knowing Him, and knowing requires humility, trust. Our pride keeps us from Him. Its not about believing ideas, or dogma.

Stuu
August 7th, 2015, 06:02 PM
How does one "experience" knowing someone, then be able to claim to have never met them?
Acts 9:3-9

Stuart

George Affleck
August 9th, 2015, 08:08 AM
So this is rubbish?
"Taste and see that the Lord is good! Blessed is the man who takes refuge in Him." Psalm 34:8

This verse is a joyful directive to born again believers to continually exercise their singular ability to partake of, and enjoy, God's infinite goodness.

1. You are assuming that the verb "taste" in this verse must mean a short, practical, subjective trial like wine tasting, pie judging or test driving a car. Tasting can be a sampling to test flavour as you suggest but the primary meaning is to "perceive or experience the flavour" of something and has no time limitation as is necessary with an experiment.

2. You are assuming that "taste" here is an open invitation to sample God's attributes and derive a clinical analysis of His goodness. The verse, however states emphatically 'that the Lord is good' and leaves no room for opinion. Seeing that the original is in the imperative mood, for both "taste" and "see", and there are no modifiers, it is a command and not a simple invitation. He is not open to analysis.

3. You are assuming that this directive to taste and see is open to anyone and not restricted to believers. This runs contrary to the harmony of the scriptures. Personal verification regarding God's goodness can only be made by those who have been regenerated by God's Spirit. Indeed, tasting, in this spiritual sense, can only be a savouring of God's goodness by those who, as the rest of the verse says, have taken "refuge in him" and as verse 3 says, those who are capable of exalting the name of the Lord together with David.

Yes; I suggest that only rubbish theology can come to the conclusion that the creature can, in any respect, sit in judgement on the Creator.

Daniel1611
August 9th, 2015, 08:11 AM
You don't "try" Jesus. You believe on him or you don't.

Angel4Truth
August 9th, 2015, 10:29 AM
Acts 9:3-9

Stuart

Paul met Him. So whats your point?

Jose Fly
August 10th, 2015, 10:32 AM
Because it's all about knowing Him, and knowing requires humility, trust. Our pride keeps us from Him. Its not about believing ideas, or dogma.

Again, have you tried that approach with other religions?

PureX
August 10th, 2015, 11:22 AM
Some things in life have to tried to see if they are good. Some things need to be experienced for yourself to determine it's merrits. I can talk all day on TOL or anywhere else that the Lord is Good, but until you experience Him it sounds like gibberish. Scientists come to the point that the only way to find out the truth of an hypothesis is trail without fear of failing. You can't believe me or others, ok. But you must admit to yourself you will never know if He is good unless you try Him on for size. You may say but I don't want to know. Or I don't care to know, or just no thanks. In that case you won't know, nor will you exercise the only way you can find out. Let science be your guide.And there's more to it.

The trial needs to be reasonable and honest. Otherwise we can set any proposition up to fail, and it will fail, because the trial was a 'set-up'.

For example, if I ask God to give me the winning lotto ticket, I am setting myself up for a near guaranteed failure. One, because I am assuming God performs supernatural feats for people, and two, because I assume God's purpose is to do my bidding. Both of which I already know are extremely unlikely. Just as I know that it is extremely unlikely that I will buy the winning lotto ticket.

So that when we test a belief in God, for example, it's important that we define God in a way that is reasonable, and choose a test that allows for what is possible.

PureX
August 10th, 2015, 11:36 AM
Funny you should say that, because that's the sort of approach I applied. It wasn't very long before I concluded that my prayers were just me talking to myself and if things were going to happen, I had to do them myself, no gods required.And you didn't see that as a positive response to your prayers? :chuckle:

I once became obsessed with the I-Ching. I was going through a very difficult time in my life and when I would throw the I-Ching, it would give me "answers" that really seemed to make sense to me. Unfortunately, I wouldn't just accept the answers I was being given, and so kept throwing it and throwing it many times a day.

Finally, the I-Ching itself told me that I was behaving like an obstinate child and that it would not answer me again for TEN YEARS! And from then on, it seemed to me that each time I threw it, all I got was an 'picture' of exactly where I was at, at that moment. It had refused to 'speak to me' further, and that ended my obsession with it.

Exactly ten years later I threw it once again, and basically all it said was, "congratulations, we're done here". :)

Now, I know that throwing the I-Ching involves my having to 'interpret' the meaning of the vague cryptic responses I was getting, and so this story is really about me 'talking to myself' through this ancient oracle/ritual. And that in effect, I had cured myself by the way I interpreted the oracle's responses. And yet at the same time, the oracle worked exactly as millions of Chinese people have believed and claimed it does for centuries.

Maybe "God" doesn't work through feats of supernatural 'magic', but through our own better inclinations.