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Robert Pate
August 1st, 2015, 08:29 AM
To deny that Jesus atoned for the sins of the world is to deny that Jesus is Lord.

"And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a show of them openly, triumphing over them in it" Colossians 2:15.

When Jesus atoned for the sins of the world he defeated sin, death and the devil and reconciled the world unto God, 2 Corinthians 5:18, 19. To deny that Jesus defeated sin, death and the devil is to deny the Gospel and that the world has been reconciled unto God.

Paul said that the Gospel is... "The power of God unto salvation to everyone that believes" Romans 1:16. To everyone that believes the Gospel.

To deny that Jesus is the savior of the world and that he has atoned for the sins of the world is to deny that you are a Christian and have eternal life. Plain and simple.

From the Old Testament unto the New Testament the Bible teaches that the "JUST SHALL LIVE BY FAITH" Romans 1:17. They live by faith in God's promises and God's word.

It is very obvious that those who deny that Jesus is the savior of the world are NOT of the faith.

Robert Pate
August 2nd, 2015, 08:32 AM
Jesus at the right hand of God in heaven is our assurance of our salvation.

Not predestination or anything else.

Jerry Shugart
August 2nd, 2015, 10:20 AM
To deny that Jesus atoned for the sins of the world is to deny that Jesus is Lord.

What is the meaning which you place on the word "atoned"?

Caino
August 2nd, 2015, 10:32 AM
Jesus didn't teach atonement theory, he taught real salvation by way of sincere repentance, spirit born transformation and a whole souled commitment to seek and do the will of God in our lives as he did in his.


Jesus said the cross was proof of his authority to teach the original gospel that he had hoped the Jews would adopt and in turn teach to the world.

jamie
August 2nd, 2015, 11:34 AM
It is very obvious that those who deny that Jesus is the savior of the world are NOT of the faith.


Is that a problem for God? If so, why?

Nick M
August 2nd, 2015, 12:36 PM
To deny that Jesus atoned for the sins of the world is to deny that Jesus is Lord.....Paul said that the Gospel is... "The power of God unto salvation to everyone that believes" Romans 1:16. To everyone that believes the Gospel.


Well done. You're MAD. :Plain:

Nick M
August 2nd, 2015, 12:37 PM
Is that a problem for God? If so, why?

No. He isn't the one headed to hell.

Robert Pate
August 2nd, 2015, 06:44 PM
What is the meaning which you place on the word "atoned"?

ATONE: To make expiation as for sin or wrong doing.

Robert Pate
August 2nd, 2015, 06:47 PM
Is that a problem for God? If so, why?



God doesn't have any problems. God is at peace with the world because of the doing and the dying of Jesus, Colossians 1:20.

M. A. Williams
August 2nd, 2015, 07:06 PM
To deny that Jesus atoned for the sins of the world is to deny that Jesus is Lord.

"And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a show of them openly, triumphing over them in it" Colossians 2:15.

When Jesus atoned for the sins of the world he defeated sin, death and the devil and reconciled the world unto God, 2 Corinthians 5:18, 19. To deny that Jesus defeated sin, death and the devil is to deny the Gospel and that the world has been reconciled unto God.

Paul said that the Gospel is... "The power of God unto salvation to everyone that believes" Romans 1:16. To everyone that believes the Gospel.

To deny that Jesus is the savior of the world and that he has atoned for the sins of the world is to deny that you are a Christian and have eternal life. Plain and simple.

From the Old Testament unto the New Testament the Bible teaches that the "JUST SHALL LIVE BY FAITH" Romans 1:17. They live by faith in God's promises and God's word.

It is very obvious that those who deny that Jesus is the savior of the world are NOT of the faith.

Precisely why I don't believe in absolute or 'universal' atonement because not all sin was atoned for. Or at least it needs to be "All*" with a footnote.

aikido7
August 2nd, 2015, 07:32 PM
To deny that Jesus atoned for the sins of the world is to deny that Jesus is Lord.

"And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a show of them openly, triumphing over them in it" Colossians 2:15.

When Jesus atoned for the sins of the world he defeated sin, death and the devil and reconciled the world unto God, 2 Corinthians 5:18, 19. To deny that Jesus defeated sin, death and the devil is to deny the Gospel and that the world has been reconciled unto God.

Paul said that the Gospel is... "The power of God unto salvation to everyone that believes" Romans 1:16. To everyone that believes the Gospel.

To deny that Jesus is the savior of the world and that he has atoned for the sins of the world is to deny that you are a Christian and have eternal life. Plain and simple.

From the Old Testament unto the New Testament the Bible teaches that the "JUST SHALL LIVE BY FAITH" Romans 1:17. They live by faith in God's promises and God's word.

It is very obvious that those who deny that Jesus is the savior of the world are NOT of the faith.

Believing that Jesus actually saw himself as "Savior of the World" lets us off the hook so we don't have to take his actual teachings and ethics too seriously.

Brother Ducky
August 2nd, 2015, 08:59 PM
It is very obvious that those who deny that Jesus is the savior of the world are NOT of the faith.

Since you rightfully believe that not all are saved, and since you hold that the world is all humans, are you not of the faith?

Nick M
August 2nd, 2015, 09:02 PM
Precisely why I don't believe in absolute or 'universal' atonement because not all sin was atoned for.

The Lord Jesus Christ died for all sin and was raised for all. Not all accept the free gift.

Robert Pate
August 3rd, 2015, 05:17 AM
Precisely why I don't believe in absolute or 'universal' atonement because not all sin was atoned for. Or at least it needs to be "All*" with a footnote.


You are at odds with Christ because Jesus claims to be the savior of the world, John 12:47.

if Jesus did not atone for the sins of the world then Jesus is NOT Lord and should be removed from his position at the right hand of God, Hebrews 7:26.

Robert Pate
August 3rd, 2015, 05:21 AM
Since you rightfully believe that not all are saved, and since you hold that the world is all humans, are you not of the faith?

Salvation has been provided for all.

Jesus is the international savior, "He tasted death for everyone" Hebrews 2:9.

If you could just believe the scriptures, you could get saved.

Robert Pate
August 3rd, 2015, 05:25 AM
Believing that Jesus actually saw himself as "Savior of the World" lets us off the hook so we don't have to take his actual teachings and ethics too seriously.

There will be a judgment of individuals. You had better take his words very seriously. Unless you want to hear... "Depart from me I never knew you" Matthew 7:23.

Ben Masada
August 3rd, 2015, 05:26 AM
Jesus didn't teach atonement theory, he taught real salvation by way of sincere repentance, spirit born transformation and a whole souled commitment to seek and do the will of God in our lives as he did in his.

Jesus said the cross was proof of his authority to teach the original gospel that he had hoped the Jews would adopt and in turn teach to the world.

What original gospel are you talking about, the gospel of Paul or the gospel of Jesus. If you had lived at the time of Jesus and asked about this original gospel, he would tell you to listen to "Moses" aka the Law. According to his parable about the Richman and Lazarus, that's the only way to escape hell-fire. (Luke 16:31) The Jews had already adopted that gospel. It is called Judaism.

aikido7
August 3rd, 2015, 05:32 AM
There will be a judgment of individuals. You had better take his words very seriously. Unless you want to hear... "Depart from me I never knew you" Matthew 7:23.I am judged every day. Especially by myself. But I don't believe in a strict/jealous God of justice. Of course I could be way off base here, but I don't see this tradition of seeing God as part of Jesus' own vision of the Father.

As far as not taking Jesus seriously, I have to strenuously disagree. I try to separate his unique "voice print" from the dogma and theology placed on his lips by his later followers. It's his authentic preaching that I try to take seriously.

Robert Pate
August 3rd, 2015, 05:37 AM
What original gospel are you talking about, the gospel of Paul or the gospel of Jesus. If you had lived at the time of Jesus and asked about this original gospel, he would tell you to listen to "Moses" aka the Law. According to his parable about the Richman and Lazarus, that's the only way to escape hell-fire. (Luke 16:31) The Jews had already adopted that gospel. It is called Judaism.

There is only one Gospel, Galatians 1:6, 7.

It is the Gospel that justifies the ungodly, Romans 4:5 and reconciles the world unto God, 2 Corinthians 5:19.

The law is not the Gospel. The law being the nature and character of God will condemn you to hell, if you try to be saved by keeping it.

Robert Pate
August 3rd, 2015, 05:41 AM
I am judged every day. Especially by myself. But I don't believe in a strict/jealous God of justice. Of course I could be way off base here, but I don't see this tradition of seeing God as part of Jesus' own vision of the Father.

As far as not taking Jesus seriously, I have to strenuously disagree. I try to separate his unique "voice print" from the dogma and theology placed on his lips by his later followers. It's his authentic preaching that I try to take seriously.

God is holy, holy, holy. If you come before him in the judgment in your sins you will be toast.

aikido7
August 3rd, 2015, 05:47 AM
God is holy, holy, holy. If you come before him in the judgment in your sins you will be toast. I searched my Strong's Biblical Concordance and cannot find the word "toast" anywhere in it.

I come before God's "judgement in my sins" every moment in every day. Yet I am still forgiven to the same extent that I forgive others.

Like Jesus and John the Baptizer before him, I see a God of mercy that demands repentance and forgiveness of others. To me salvation is something that happens in this life, not the next. Jesus freely offered and granted salvation to many long before he was sent to the cross in Jerusalem.

Forgiveness of sins has nothing to do with the theology of a blood sacrifice in my opinion.

Robert Pate
August 3rd, 2015, 07:01 AM
I searched my Strong's Biblical Concordance and cannot find the word "toast" anywhere in it.

I come before God's "judgement in my sins" every moment in every day. Yet I am still forgiven to the same extent that I forgive others.

Like Jesus and John the Baptizer before him, I see a God of mercy that demands repentance and forgiveness of others. To me salvation is something that happens in this life, not the next. Jesus freely offered and granted salvation to many long before he was sent to the cross in Jerusalem.

Forgiveness of sins has nothing to do with the theology of a blood sacrifice in my opinion.


Of course you are wrong.

"Foreasmuch as you know that you were not redeemed with corruptable things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers. But with the precious blood of Christ, as a lamb without blemish or spot" 1 Peter 1:18, 19.

I guess your opinion is wrong.

Jerry Shugart
August 3rd, 2015, 07:44 AM
ATONE: To make expiation as for sin or wrong doing.

So all the sins of all men have been expiated?

Then how can the sins of unbelivers be held against them, especially since you say that the penalty for those sins has already been paid?

I believe that the Lord died on behalf of all men but that He did not die in the place of all men.


The law being the nature and character of God will condemn you to hell, if you try to be saved by keeping it.

Again, how can God judge you for your sins if those sins have already been taken away and expiated?

beloved57
August 3rd, 2015, 07:59 AM
To deny that Jesus atoned for the sins of the world is to deny that Jesus is Lord.

"And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a show of them openly, triumphing over them in it" Colossians 2:15.

When Jesus atoned for the sins of the world he defeated sin, death and the devil and reconciled the world unto God, 2 Corinthians 5:18, 19. To deny that Jesus defeated sin, death and the devil is to deny the Gospel and that the world has been reconciled unto God.

Paul said that the Gospel is... "The power of God unto salvation to everyone that believes" Romans 1:16. To everyone that believes the Gospel.

To deny that Jesus is the savior of the world and that he has atoned for the sins of the world is to deny that you are a Christian and have eternal life. Plain and simple.

From the Old Testament unto the New Testament the Bible teaches that the "JUST SHALL LIVE BY FAITH" Romans 1:17. They live by faith in God's promises and God's word.

It is very obvious that those who deny that Jesus is the savior of the world are NOT of the faith.

Invalid comments, God only Promised Salvation to one specific People, Israel His Elect Isa 45:17

17 But Israel shall be saved in the Lord with an everlasting salvation: ye shall not be ashamed nor confounded world without end.

He came to atone for the sins of a specific people Heb 2:17

17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.

To believe He atoned for the sins of all mankinf without exception is to believe a lie !

M. A. Williams
August 3rd, 2015, 08:14 AM
If we're to assume disbelief is a sin, is that atoned for too?

Ben Masada
August 3rd, 2015, 08:17 AM
1 - There is only one Gospel, Galatians 1:6, 7.

2 - It is the Gospel that justifies the ungodly, Romans 4:5 and reconciles the world unto God, 2 Corinthians 5:19.

3 - The law is not the Gospel. The law being the nature and character of God will condemn you to hell, if you try to be saved by keeping it.

1 - Are you positive! When Paul went up to Jerusalem, he tarried idly to check things around, listened to the message of the gospel preached by the Apostles of Jesus and got terribly disappointed as he arrived to the conclusion that they were preaching a different gospel about a different Jesus. Hence, he considered them as false apostles; deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ. (II Cor. 11:4-6, 13) This already says upfront that more than a gospel was being preached around; the gospel of Paul and that of the Apostles of Jesus. Then, in a letter to his disciple Timothy in II Tim. 2:8, he revealed the secret that Jesus was the Messiah and that he had resurrected was according to his gospel. It means that there was another gospel being preached, in whose agenda, Jesus was not spoken of as being the Messiah or that he had resurrected. So, what are you taking about!

2 - Perhaps, his gospel because, according to Isa. 1:18,19 the only way to set things right with God so that our sins from scarlet red become as white as snow, the only way is repentance and return to the obedience of God's Law.

3 - And you say, "if you try to be saved by keeping the Law, you will be condemned to hell." Let's make a deal. While I try to live by keeping the Law, you try to live by breaking it and let's see who will be saved. Do you have any doubt? I don't. I am quite certain of whoof the both of us will end in hell.

Robert Pate
August 3rd, 2015, 08:59 AM
So all the sins of all men have been expiated?

Then how can the sins of unbelivers be held against them, especially since you say that the penalty for those sins has already been paid?

I believe that the Lord died on behalf of all men but that He did not die in the place of all men.



Again, how can God judge you for your sins if those sins have already been taken away and expiated?


The "Great White Throne" judgment will be for unbelievers and not for sin as all sin has been done away with in Jesus Christ.

Jesus as our substitute and representative died in our place and on our behalf. To not believe that is to not believe the Gospel.

Robert Pate
August 3rd, 2015, 09:02 AM
1 - Are you positive! When Paul went up to Jerusalem, he tarried idly to check things around, listened to the message of the gospel preached by the Apostles of Jesus and got terribly disappointed as he arrived to the conclusion that they were preaching a different gospel about a different Jesus. Hence, he considered them as false apostles; deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ. (II Cor. 11:4-6, 13) This already says upfront that more than a gospel was being preached around; the gospel of Paul and that of the Apostles of Jesus. Then, in a letter to his disciple Timothy in II Tim. 2:8, he revealed the secret that Jesus was the Messiah and that he had resurrected was according to his gospel. It means that there was another gospel being preached, in whose agenda, Jesus was not spoken of as being the Messiah or that he had resurrected. So, what are you taking about!

2 - Perhaps, his gospel because, according to Isa. 1:18,19 the only way to set things right with God so that our sins from scarlet red become as white as snow, the only way is repentance and return to the obedience of God's Law.

3 - And you say, "if you try to be saved by keeping the Law, you will be condemned to hell." Let's make a deal. While I try to live by keeping the Law, you try to live by breaking it and let's see who will be saved. Do you have any doubt? I don't. I am quite certain of whoof the both of us will end in hell.

There is no salvation outside of Jesus Christ.

Jesus said, "I am the way, the truth and the life: no man can come to the Father, but by me" John 14:6.

Robert Pate
August 3rd, 2015, 09:06 AM
If we're to assume disbelief is a sin, is that atoned for too?

The Bible does not say that Jesus died for unbelief.

There is a strong emphasis that Jesus saves believers, John 3:18.

j4jesus09
August 3rd, 2015, 09:24 AM
Robert, it is very important to believe this. However, it is still pre-ordained by God to believe or else we wouldn't. Unbelief is a symptom of sin and our fallen nature. Even when we want to believe we can't without GOD's help. If can believe on our own without God's help then what is God doing for us?

24Immediately the boy’s father exclaimed, “I DO BELIEVE; help me overcome my UNBELIEF!”

Robert Pate
August 3rd, 2015, 09:31 AM
Robert, it is very important to believe this. However, it is still pre-ordained by God to believe or else we wouldn't. Unbelief is a symptom of sin and our fallen nature. Even when we want to believe we can't without GOD's help. If can believe on our own without God's help then what is God doing for us?

24Immediately the boy’s father exclaimed, “I DO BELIEVE; help me overcome my UNBELIEF!”


The Holy Spirit is in the world calling all to come to Christ, Hebrews 3:15.

He calls, but many turn him off.

beloved57
August 3rd, 2015, 09:38 AM
The Holy Spirit is in the world calling all to come to Christ, Hebrews 3:15.

He calls, but many turn him off.

Those who God calls are Justified and Glorified Rom 8:30 !

jamie
August 3rd, 2015, 09:43 AM
The Holy Spirit is in the world calling all to come to Christ, Hebrews 3:15.


Not true.


For you see your calling, brethren, that not many wise according to the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble are called.
(1 Corinthians 1:26 NKJV)

j4jesus09
August 3rd, 2015, 09:47 AM
The Holy Spirit is in the world calling all to come to Christ, Hebrews 3:15.

He calls, but many turn him off.

I once again agree. You and I may know that through the word but before a person can come to understand this and read it dissect it how does God draw a person who has no desire for him who doesn't understand what the scriptures say? Who give no thought to God?
Do you remember where we came from before we loved to read God's word? Dead in sins. Forgive them for they know not what they do. Really the majority really don't know as we do!! Even when we were babes in Christ the majority doesn't even believe as babes in Christ. Do you agree with that?

Ephesians 2:1-5
As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, 2in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the (spirit) who is now at work in those who are disobedient. 3All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our flesha and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature deserving of wrath. 4But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved.

M. A. Williams
August 3rd, 2015, 09:55 AM
The Bible does not say that Jesus died for unbelief.

There is a strong emphasis that Jesus saves believers, John 3:18.

It says He died for sin though, didn't it?

Just highlighting that it wasn't all sin, then.

Jerry Shugart
August 3rd, 2015, 09:56 AM
The "Great White Throne" judgment will be for unbelievers and not for sin as all sin has been done away with in Jesus Christ.

So all sin has been done away? If all sins were expiated at the Cross then why would Peter says that it takes "faith" to have one's sins taken away?:


"To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins" (Acts 10:38).


Jesus as our substitute and representative died in our place and on our behalf. To not believe that is to not believe the Gospel.

You pervert the gospel when you assert that the Lord Jesus expiated the sins of unbelievers at the Cross. You pervert the gospel when you say that everyone's sins were remitted at the Cross even though Peter says that only those who believe have their sins remitted.

Robert Pate
August 3rd, 2015, 11:32 AM
So all sin has been done away? If all sins were expiated at the Cross then why would Peter says that it takes "faith" to have one's sins taken away?:


"To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins" (Acts 10:38).



You pervert the gospel when you assert that the Lord Jesus expiated the sins of unbelievers at the Cross. You pervert the gospel when you say that everyone's sins were remitted at the Cross even though Peter says that only those who believe have their sins remitted.


The Bible teaches that Jesus is the savior of the whole world.

"And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not ours only but for the sins of THE WHOLE WORLD" 1 John 2:2.

"And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the savior of the world" 1 John 4:14.

If Jesus had not defeated sin, death and the devil no one could be saved.

Robert Pate
August 3rd, 2015, 11:35 AM
It says He died for sin though, didn't it?

Just highlighting that it wasn't all sin, then.

Jesus died for the sins of the whole world, 1 John 2:2.

Are you saying that Jesus only died for some sins and not all sins.

Robert Pate
August 3rd, 2015, 11:40 AM
Not true.


For you see your calling, brethren, that not many wise according to the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble are called.
(1 Corinthians 1:26 NKJV)

If God did not call some it is probably because he knew that they would not come to Christ, so why call them? There is such a thing as a reprobate.

Robert Pate
August 3rd, 2015, 11:46 AM
I once again agree. You and I may know that through the word but before a person can come to understand this and read it dissect it how does God draw a person who has no desire for him who doesn't understand what the scriptures say? Who give no thought to God?
Do you remember where we came from before we loved to read God's word? Dead in sins. Forgive them for they know not what they do. Really the majority really don't know as we do!! Even when we were babes in Christ the majority doesn't even believe as babes in Christ. Do you agree with that?

Ephesians 2:1-5
As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, 2in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the (spirit) who is now at work in those who are disobedient. 3All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our flesha and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature deserving of wrath. 4But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved.


Some of those who had crucified Christ became Christians when they heard the Gospel, Acts 2:23, 36.

The Holy Spirit and the Gospel are inseparable.

j4jesus09
August 3rd, 2015, 12:56 PM
Some of those who had crucified Christ became Christians when they heard the Gospel, Acts 2:23, 36.

The Holy Spirit and the Gospel are inseparable.

Agreed they are inseparable. From my own conversion the holy spirit worked in my heart, mind, and soul to believe the gospel. Not the other way around. An individual does not ask the holy spirit to do this before he has been converted. Truth is what converts us. We don't choose not to understand the truth we geninuely don't understand or for some even know the truth. Once a person understands the truth meaning it becomes who they are then they can start new life. The understanding is from the LORD. Not something simply learned.

Jerry Shugart
August 3rd, 2015, 12:57 PM
The Bible teaches that Jesus is the savior of the whole world.

All you do is quote verses which you think proves that all men have their sins remitted even though they do not believe. All you have proved so far is the fact that you do not believe what Peter said here:


"To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins" (Acts 10:38).

How do you reconcile what Peter said here to your idea that the sins of all people were expiated at the Cross?

Then I will answer any verse which you choose.

j4jesus09
August 3rd, 2015, 12:59 PM
If God did not call some it is probably because he knew that they would not come to Christ, so why call them? There is such a thing as a reprobate.

Well Robert, now that would present an even greater question, why create them? If God already knew they would not come why even create them knowing that?

Robert Pate
August 3rd, 2015, 01:06 PM
Agreed they are inseparable. From my own conversion the holy spirit worked in my heart, mind, and soul to believe the gospel. Not the other way around. An individual does not ask the holy spirit to do this before he has been converted. Truth is what converts us. We don't choose not to understand the truth we geninuely don't understand or for some even know the truth. Once a person understands the truth meaning it becomes who they are then they can start new life. The understanding is from the LORD. Not something simply learned.

Right,

The Holy Spirit is the teacher, John 16:13.

beloved57
August 3rd, 2015, 01:13 PM
Right,

The Holy Spirit is the teacher, John 16:13.

If we belonged to Christ and He died for us ! Christ did not die for everyone, but only for the Church Eph 5:25 !

j4jesus09
August 3rd, 2015, 01:15 PM
Right,

The Holy Spirit is the teacher, John 16:13.

Do you believe the way the the Holy Spirit teaches you and I the truth that he is teaching the person out there committing heinous murders, robbery, cold blooded crimes, and every evil under the sun? Do you believe they could continue in that if the truth was shed in their hearts by the holy spirit?

Jerry Shugart
August 3rd, 2015, 01:17 PM
From my own conversion the holy spirit worked in my heart, mind, and soul to believe the gospel.

No one is converted until they believe the gospel. From what you said you must think that people are converted first and then believe the gospel.

j4jesus09
August 3rd, 2015, 01:20 PM
No one is converted until they believe the gospel. From what you said you must think that people are converted first and then believe the gospel.

Understood, but without the holy spirit you wouldn't believe the gospel. The holy spirit is what we need to understand the truth which is contained in the gospel. Our minds could not understand it without the help of God.

jamie
August 3rd, 2015, 02:17 PM
If God did not call some it is probably because he knew that they would not come to Christ, so why call them?


No one can come to Jesus Christ except that the Father draws the person to Jesus. The NT does not say that the Father is drawing everyone to Jesus at this time. The Father is more powerful than any unbeliever.

Bright Raven
August 3rd, 2015, 02:21 PM
No one can come to Jesus Christ except that the Father draws the person to Jesus. The NT does not say that the Father is drawing everyone to Jesus at this time. The Father is more powerful than any unbeliever.2 Peter 3:9 King James Version (KJV)

9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Robert Pate
August 3rd, 2015, 02:27 PM
Do you believe the way the the Holy Spirit teaches you and I the truth that he is teaching the person out there committing heinous murders, robbery, cold blooded crimes, and every evil under the sun? Do you believe they could continue in that if the truth was shed in their hearts by the holy spirit?

This is why John wrote, 1 John 1:6

jamie
August 3rd, 2015, 02:35 PM
2 Peter 3:9 King James Version (KJV)

9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.


So you believe the preposition "to us" is referring to everyone on earth?

Robert Pate
August 3rd, 2015, 02:39 PM
All you do is quote verses which you think proves that all men have their sins remitted even though they do not believe. All you have proved so far is the fact that you do not believe what Peter said here:


"To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins" (Acts 10:38).

How do you reconcile what Peter said here to your idea that the sins of all people were expiated at the Cross?

Then I will answer any verse which you choose.


What did Paul mean when he wrote this?

"And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a show of them openly, triumphing over them in it" Colossians 2:15.

The principalities are sin, death and the devil.

Jerry Shugart
August 3rd, 2015, 02:40 PM
Understood, but without the holy spirit you wouldn't believe the gospel.

I agree with that but it must be remembered that the gospel comes in the Holy Spirit (1 Thess.1:5).

Jerry Shugart
August 3rd, 2015, 02:43 PM
What did Paul mean when he wrote this?

"And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a show of them openly, triumphing over them in it" Colossians 2:15.

The principalities are sin, death and the devil.

I asked you a question about the meaning of what Peter said at Acts 10:38 and instead of answering that question all you did was to ask me a question.

Still waitng.

Bright Raven
August 3rd, 2015, 02:45 PM
So you believe the preposition "to us" is referring to everyone on earth?
And whom would you propose it is addressed to?

Robert Pate
August 3rd, 2015, 02:45 PM
I asked you a question about the meaning of what Peter said at Acts 10:38 and instead of answering that question all you did was to ask me a question.

Still waitng.

I think that you have the wrong scripture concerning what Peter said.

jamie
August 3rd, 2015, 06:21 PM
And whom would you propose it is addressed to?


The bride of Christ.

Jerry Shugart
August 3rd, 2015, 06:39 PM
I think that you have the wrong scripture concerning what Peter said.

It is this passage which contain the words spoken by Peter about the remission of sins:


"To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins" (Acts 10:43).

According to Peter only the sins of those who believe are taken away or expiated.

But you say that all of the sins of everyone in the whole world have been taken away or expiated.

Why should we believe you instead of Peter?

Zeke
August 3rd, 2015, 07:50 PM
The bride of Christ.

Which like the new birth is a inward marriage, noting that there is neither male or female, Jew or Gentile in the mentality of the Christ, they are just Actors in a allegorical teaching that depicts all sides of our nature and the place of Divine graduation when we grasp that it is a kingdom within and none observable to the first born represented by the letter that veils the mind to its Esoteric structure.

M. A. Williams
August 3rd, 2015, 08:16 PM
Jesus died for the sins of the whole world, 1 John 2:2.

Are you saying that Jesus only died for some sins and not all sins.

Except the sin of disbelief.

So again, not all sins.

Robert Pate
August 4th, 2015, 08:16 AM
Except the sin of disbelief.

So again, not all sins.


Unbelief is not really a sin. Unbelief is a denial and a rejection of the truth and is the result of sin.

I would say that unbelief is the results of sin, but is not really a sin.

Jerry Shugart
August 4th, 2015, 09:17 AM
I think that you have the wrong scripture concerning what Peter said.

It is this passage which contain the words spoken by Peter about the remission of sins:


"To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins" (Acts 10:43).

According to Peter only the sins of those who believe are taken away or expiated.

But you say that all of the sins of everyone in the whole world have been taken away or expiated.

Why should we believe you instead of Peter?

j4jesus09
August 4th, 2015, 11:20 AM
This is why John wrote, 1 John 1:6

Right, it was written for our understanding so we know that the holy spirit is NOT associated with that kind of mess. Still brother, the fact that if a person can receive Jesus Christ and the message of the gospel they must been chosen. Why? The carnal man can't receive the the things of God for they are spiritually discerned. God must do something to man INSIDE that allows him to receive the gospel. I personally believe the Holy Spirit enters man and gives rebirth and then man believes on the gospel then confession is made unto faith. Alot of people think a person must believe the gospel first but without the holy spirit helping man, basically God helping man, man wouldn't believe. The irony!

j4jesus09
August 4th, 2015, 11:21 AM
I agree with that but it must be remembered that the gospel comes in the Holy Spirit (1 Thess.1:5).

Totally agree! It's oneness. The holy spirit teaches us the gospel.

aikido7
August 4th, 2015, 02:09 PM
I don't see Jesus as proclaiming he died for our sins. He forgave sins many, many times long before he died. He died because of the Romans and the priest elders colluded to kill him for high treason.

The atonement theology wasn't worked completely out until around the year 900 by a famous Christian theologian, Anselm of Canterbury.

My evidence shows that Jesus did not believe in a blood sacrifice but, as the Lord's Prayer shows, only a spirit of repentance will get us squared away with God for a good life.

j4jesus09
August 4th, 2015, 02:15 PM
I don't see Jesus as proclaiming he died for our sins. He forgave sins many, many times long before he died. He died because of the Romans and the priest elders colluded to kill him for high treason.

The atonement theology wasn't worked completely out until around the year 900 by a famous Christian theologian, Anselm of Canterbury.

My evidence shows that Jesus did not believe in a blood sacrifice but, as the Lord's Prayer shows, only a spirit of repentance will get us squared away with God for a good life.

Huh??

j4jesus09
August 4th, 2015, 02:17 PM
I don't see Jesus as proclaiming he died for our sins. He forgave sins many, many times long before he died. He died because of the Romans and the priest elders colluded to kill him for high treason.

The atonement theology wasn't worked completely out until around the year 900 by a famous Christian theologian, Anselm of Canterbury.

My evidence shows that Jesus did not believe in a blood sacrifice but, as the Lord's Prayer shows, only a spirit of repentance will get us squared away with God for a good life.

1st John2:2

2 He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

Robert Pate
August 4th, 2015, 02:17 PM
I don't see Jesus as proclaiming he died for our sins. He forgave sins many, many times long before he died. He died because of the Romans and the priest elders colluded to kill him for high treason.

The atonement theology wasn't worked completely out until around the year 900 by a famous Christian theologian, Anselm of Canterbury.

My evidence shows that Jesus did not believe in a blood sacrifice but, as the Lord's Prayer shows, only a spirit of repentance will get us squared away with God for a good life.


"Without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sin" Hebrews 9:22.

Robert Pate
August 4th, 2015, 02:21 PM
It is this passage which contain the words spoken by Peter about the remission of sins:


"To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins" (Acts 10:43).

According to Peter only the sins of those who believe are taken away or expiated.

But you say that all of the sins of everyone in the whole world have been taken away or expiated.

Why should we believe you instead of Peter?

The scriptures teach that Jesus has abolished sin, death and the devil and that he is the savior of the whole world, 1 John 2:2.

Jerry Shugart
August 4th, 2015, 02:51 PM
The scriptures teach that Jesus has abolished sin, death and the devil and that he is the savior of the whole world, 1 John 2:2.

So there is no more sin or death in the world?

And you must also think that Peter was in error when he said the following:


"To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins" (Acts 10:43).

According to Peter only the sins of those who believe are taken away or expiated.

But you say that all of the sins of everyone in the whole world have been taken away or expiated.

Where did you ever get the idea that you know more about these things than Peter?

Robert Pate
August 4th, 2015, 04:37 PM
So there is no more sin or death in the world?

And you must also think that Peter was in error when he said the following:


"To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins" (Acts 10:43).

According to Peter only the sins of those who believe are taken away or expiated.

But you say that all of the sins of everyone in the whole world have been taken away or expiated.

Where did you ever get the idea that you know more about these things than Peter?


Jerry, what you don't understand is that God sees everything in his Son Jesus Christ. As far as God is concerned sin, death and the devil have been abolished and Jesus is Lord, Colossians 2:15.

Jesus Christ is Gods new Adam and our new humanity, 2 Corinthians 5:17. We have been reconciled unto God by the doing and the dying of Jesus, 2 Corinthians 5:18, 19.

All who have faith in Christ and his Gospel are saved. They are sealed with the Holy Spirit and are "In Christ". God sees them "In Christ" as perfect and complete in him, Colossians 2:10.

Jerry Shugart
August 4th, 2015, 05:04 PM
All who have faith in Christ and his Gospel are saved. They are sealed with the Holy Spirit and are "In Christ". God sees them "In Christ" as perfect and complete in him, Colossians 2:10.

Why will you not directly address Peter's words here?:


"To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins" (Acts 10:43).

If all men's sins are already remitted or expiated then how is it possible for those who believe to have their sins remitted since they have already been expiated?

In other words, how can a believer's sins be taken away if their are no sins to be taken away?

Please give me your interpretation of the meaning of Peter's words at Acts 10:43.

aikido7
August 4th, 2015, 09:04 PM
1st John2:2

2 He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

Of COURSE John would say that. To declare Jesus as the Lamb of God sacrificed for our sins was clearly John's agenda.

In fact, he has Jesus dying on the day BEFORE Passover--not like the other three gospels assert.

John's Jesus dies on the Day of Preparation when the paschal lambs were slaughtered for the Passover meal the next day.

And don't take my word for this. Check it out for yourself.

aikido7
August 4th, 2015, 09:09 PM
"Without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sin" Hebrews 9:22.Jesus forgave sins plenty of time long before the Roman Empire had him executed.

The quote form Hebrews is definitely an important biblical tradition, but it is not the only one. A much older tradition decrees that humans need to come before a God of mercy with repentance, not sacrifice. Both Jesus and John the Baptist called people to repentance.

It was the priests in the temple who still carried on the spilling of blood for atonement. Jesus is recorded as attacking the temple rites in all four gospel accounts, so we can be pretty confident they are all describing something that actually took place in Jesus' history.

Jesus once quoted the prophet Hosea and told of a God that "demanded mercy, not sacrifice."

The idea of a jealous and angry God of justice was a newer tradition and had its origin in the priestly line from Aaron, Moses's brother.

Robert Pate
August 5th, 2015, 05:47 AM
Jesus forgave sins plenty of time long before the Roman Empire had him executed.

The quote form Hebrews is definitely an important biblical tradition, but it is not the only one. A much older tradition decrees that humans need to come before a God of mercy with repentance, not sacrifice. Both Jesus and John the Baptist called people to repentance.

It was the priests in the temple who still carried on the spilling of blood for atonement. Jesus is recorded as attacking the temple rites in all four gospel accounts, so we can be pretty confident they are all describing something that actually took place in Jesus' history.

Jesus once quoted the prophet Hosea and told of a God that "demanded mercy, not sacrifice."

The idea of a jealous and angry God of justice was a newer tradition and had its origin in the priestly line from Aaron, Moses's brother.


You are anti-Gospel and anti-Christ.

Ben Masada
August 5th, 2015, 06:17 AM
Jesus forgave sins plenty of time long before the Roman Empire had him executed.

The quote form Hebrews is definitely an important biblical tradition, but it is not the only one. A much older tradition decrees that humans need to come before a God of mercy with repentance, not sacrifice. Both Jesus and John the Baptist called people to repentance.

It was the priests in the temple who still carried on the spilling of blood for atonement. Jesus is recorded as attacking the temple rites in all four gospel accounts, so we can be pretty confident they are all describing something that actually took place in Jesus' history.

Jesus once quoted the prophet Hosea and told of a God that "demanded mercy, not sacrifice."

The idea of a jealous and angry God of justice was a newer tradition and had its origin in the priestly line from Aaron, Moses's brother.

Jesus could not have forgiven the sins of any one because he himself declared that if one comes to the Temple to plead for salvation and, all of a sudden is reminded that he has offended someone else, he must leave every thing behind, and go set things right with whomever he has an issue with and set things right with him and only then return to proceed with the prayers. (Mat. 5:23,24) It means that Jesus could not forgive the sins committed against another. Then it was against the Prophets that someone else other than the sinner himself could make atonement for the sins of another. (Jer. 31:30; Ezek. 18:20)

If Jesus is recorded as attacking the Priests in their Temple rites, he himself needed to be forgiven by the priests.

Robert Pate
August 5th, 2015, 07:36 AM
Jesus could not have forgiven the sins of any one because he himself declared that if one comes to the Temple to plead for salvation and, all of a sudden is reminded that he has offended someone else, he must leave every thing behind, and go set things right with whomever he has an issue with and set things right with him and only then return to proceed with the prayers. (Mat. 5:23,24) It means that Jesus could not forgive the sins committed against another. Then it was against the Prophets that someone else other than the sinner himself could make atonement for the sins of another. (Jer. 31:30; Ezek. 18:20)

If Jesus is recorded as attacking the Priests in their Temple rites, he himself needed to be forgiven by the priests.


Jesus not only attacked the priest, he attacked the whole temple.

"And when he had a scourage of small cords, he drove them all out of the temple and the sheep and the oxen and poured out the changers money and overthrew the tables" John 2:15.

You are in serious trouble my Jewish friend. Jesus was able to forgive sins because he was the Son of God.

"The Father loves the Son and has given ALL THINGS into his hand" John 3:35.

You need to call on Christ to save you, Romans 10:13.

beloved57
August 5th, 2015, 07:47 AM
The Importance of Believing that Jesus Atoned for the Sins of the World

Thats a false statement unless we understand the world as God's Elect worldwide ! To believe it means all humanity without exception is to believe a lie !

j4jesus09
August 5th, 2015, 11:49 AM
Jesus forgave sins plenty of time long before the Roman Empire had him executed.

The quote form Hebrews is definitely an important biblical tradition, but it is not the only one. A much older tradition decrees that humans need to come before a God of mercy with repentance, not sacrifice. Both Jesus and John the Baptist called people to repentance.

It was the priests in the temple who still carried on the spilling of blood for atonement. Jesus is recorded as attacking the temple rites in all four gospel accounts, so we can be pretty confident they are all describing something that actually took place in Jesus' history.

Jesus once quoted the prophet Hosea and told of a God that "demanded mercy, not sacrifice."

The idea of a jealous and angry God of justice was a newer tradition and had its origin in the priestly line from Aaron, Moses's brother.

Strongly disagree with your understanding. Who commanded the sacrifices of animals in leviticus to be shed for sins? God does desire repentance of course but some things must be done until the lamb came. revelation 13:8b states the Lamb who was slain from the creation of the world. So even though the plan and purpose had already been concluded in God's mind the act must still be done in the present or the fullness of time. This is very crazy my brother or sister for you to claim the work of what Jesus did was not die for the world and particulary you and I. What he was killed for was just an EXCUSE to kill him. He went as he was ordained to go! INNOCENT, BLAMELESS, SINLESS. They could have accused him of a drunkard, oh they did, maybe the devil, oh they did, they could have accused him of blasphmey, oh they did, so he was accused of many different things. High treason is totally a cop out! This was craziest thing I have heard in a while.

Robert Pate
August 5th, 2015, 12:02 PM
Thats a false statement unless we understand the world as God's Elect worldwide ! To believe it means all humanity without exception is to believe a lie !

To not believe that Jesus atoned for the sins of the world is a denial of the Gospel and will put you under the wrath of God. But don't worry, you will have plenty of company.

beloved57
August 5th, 2015, 12:17 PM
To not believe that Jesus atoned for the sins of the world is a denial of the Gospel and will put you under the wrath of God. But don't worry, you will have plenty of company.

You are encouraging people to believe a lie, something the scriptures dont teach !

Bright Raven
August 5th, 2015, 12:18 PM
Thats a false statement unless we understand the world as God's Elect worldwide ! To believe it means all humanity without exception is to believe a lie !

You don't understand John 3:16.

John 3:16 Modern English Version (MEV)

16 “For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish, but have eternal life.

beloved57
August 5th, 2015, 12:21 PM
br



You don't understand John 3:16 (http://biblia.com/bible/nkjv/John%203.16).




No you dont, neither do you believe it, you cant believe it !

Bright Raven
August 5th, 2015, 12:35 PM
br



No you dont, neither do you believe it, you cant believe it !

I believe it as saying that man has the free-will choice to believe in God. When he does, salvation is granted by the father through the Son. In no way did God ever desire us to be robots of Calvinism.

beloved57
August 5th, 2015, 12:48 PM
I believe it as saying that man has the free-will choice to believe in God. When he does, salvation is granted by the father through the Son. In no way did God ever desire us to be robots of Calvinism.

See, you don't believe it or understand it!

Bright Raven
August 5th, 2015, 12:50 PM
See, you don't believe it or understand it!

You are a scripture twister if you do not see that Anyone who calls on the name will be saved.

j4jesus09
August 5th, 2015, 12:51 PM
I believe it as saying that man has the free-will choice to believe in God. When he does, salvation is granted by the father through the Son. In no way did God ever desire us to be robots of Calvinism.

Isn't freewill attached to the understanding on the inside? Doesn't what's on the inside show on the outside? Thus freewill?

Bright Raven
August 5th, 2015, 12:54 PM
Isn't freewill attached to the understanding on the inside? Doesn't what's on the inside show on the outside? Thus freewill?

Yes. Freewill is attached to choice. We must choose what we believe.

j4jesus09
August 5th, 2015, 12:57 PM
Yes. Freewill is attached to choice. We must choose what we believe.

Walk with me in my understanding. Doesn't choices come from the person's understanding. What's on the inside?

aikido7
August 5th, 2015, 01:04 PM
You are anti-Gospel and anti-Christ.I don't see that at all.

I believe your fear and defensiveness comes from the fact that I like to focus on context and history. I enjoy learning about the religious, political and social events surrounding the times of the Bible--especially in Jesus' day.

Most pastors talk about statements of belief such as "Jesus died for our sins," "Jesus is the Son of God," etc. They do not seem very interested in explaining what those phrases meant to the original authors and their readers and listeners.

I can't blame you for your feelings here. I can only point out that you are being--in my opinion--too quick to judge.

Christianity is a historical faith and I take it seriously in that regard.
I try to first determine what the text actually says and then I try to find out what that meant in its original context. And only then can I try to apply that knowledge to everyday life in the 21st century.

To me, it is Jesus and only Jesus who is the "norm" of the Bible.

Bright Raven
August 5th, 2015, 01:04 PM
Walk with me in my understanding. Doesn't choices come from the person's understanding. What's on the inside?

God presents us with a choice. Will we accept him for who he says he is or will we reject him. It really is as simple as this; "He who calls upon the name of the Lord will be saved."

aikido7
August 5th, 2015, 01:09 PM
Jesus could not have forgiven the sins of any one because he himself declared that if one comes to the Temple to plead for salvation and, all of a sudden is reminded that he has offended someone else, he must leave every thing behind, and go set things right with whomever he has an issue with and set things right with him and only then return to proceed with the prayers. (Mat. 5:23,24) It means that Jesus could not forgive the sins committed against another. Then it was against the Prophets that someone else other than the sinner himself could make atonement for the sins of another. (Jer. 31:30; Ezek. 18:20)

If Jesus is recorded as attacking the Priests in their Temple rites, he himself needed to be forgiven by the priests.I just don't see any evidence that Jesus came to the temple during the last week of his life to "plead for salvation."

I believe that you are taking the ancient prophets of the Hebrew Bible out of context to support your own personal theology here. As we all know, Matthew did this as well to convince his readers that there was a strong continuity between Jesus and what ancient authors wrote about.

In that respect you and I are probably different, because I have been convinced that Matthew clearly forced the writings of the prophets into a prediction of something in Jesus' life centuries later.

j4jesus09
August 5th, 2015, 01:09 PM
God presents us with a choice. Will we accept him for who he says he is or will we reject him. It really is as simple as this; "He who calls upon the name of the Lord will be saved."

Yes He does present us with a choice. You think each and everyone person in this entire world has seen or understood what you just stated?

Bright Raven
August 5th, 2015, 01:13 PM
Yes He does present us with a choice. You think each and everyone person in this entire world has seen or understood what you just stated?

No, that is why there are teachers, pastors and evangelists.

Matthew 28:19-20 Modern English Version (MEV)

19 Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,

20 teaching them to observe all things I have commanded you. And remember, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.” Amen.

aikido7
August 5th, 2015, 01:17 PM
Strongly disagree with your understanding. Who commanded the sacrifices of animals in leviticus to be shed for sins? God does desire repentance of course but some things must be done until the lamb came. revelation 13:8b states the Lamb who was slain from the creation of the world. So even though the plan and purpose had already been concluded in God's mind the act must still be done in the present or the fullness of time. This is very crazy my brother or sister for you to claim the work of what Jesus did was not die for the world and particulary you and I. What he was killed for was just an EXCUSE to kill him. He went as he was ordained to go! INNOCENT, BLAMELESS, SINLESS. They could have accused him of a drunkard, oh they did, maybe the devil, oh they did, they could have accused him of blasphmey, oh they did, so he was accused of many different things. High treason is totally a cop out! This was craziest thing I have heard in a while.
It is just too easy to cherry-pick phrases and theologies from the entire Bible to justify one's own beliefs.

I think I know this full well because I admit that I, too, "cherry-pick" my own beliefs.

I try to focus on Jesus himself, in the context of his times. This will mean that I don't preference anything second-hand about him. I try to be aware of his unique voice and manner of speaking--the parables and the short, pithy sayings. To me this is the Jesus I pay attention to.

I see the Bible as the "words" of God--not "THE word" of God. It is a product of inspired men who wrote in different times and wrote from different traditions and agendas. And the New Testament in particular was written down at least 50 years after Jesus died. We are dealing with remembered history from oral tradition, metaphor, theology, myth and legend.

As a Christian it is my responsibility to try and separate out those different and diverse strands so I can locate and isolate the teachings of Jesus from the words and deeds that were attributed to him by the gospel writers. In other words, I try to separate their idea of Jesus from the actual historical figure who walked the dusty roads of Palestine.

j4jesus09
August 5th, 2015, 01:26 PM
No, that is why there are teachers, pastors and evangelists.

Matthew 28:19-20 Modern English Version (MEV)

19 Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,

20 teaching them to observe all things I have commanded you. And remember, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.” Amen.

Understood that is what teachers are for. They teach knowledge. I understand because I have been born again and can now see God. God led me to accepting His son. Before, I didn't understand and wouldn't have if God didn't rattle me. So can we just understand the teaching without God? Is something special inside of me? Am I more smart than another. Am I more wise than another? If so, did the next person not have the same inside them? If so, how can they understand. These are all valid questions that scripture teaches us about.

j4jesus09
August 5th, 2015, 01:28 PM
It is just too easy to cherry-pick phrases and theologies from the entire Bible to justify one's own beliefs.

I think I know this full well because I admit that I, too, "cherry-pick" my own beliefs.

I try to focus on Jesus himself, in the context of his times. This will mean that I don't preference anything second-hand about him. I try to be aware of his unique voice and manner of speaking--the parables and the short, pithy sayings. To me this is the Jesus I pay attention to.

I see the Bible as the "words" of God--not "THE word" of God. It is a product of inspired men who wrote in different times and wrote from different traditions and agendas. And the New Testament in particular was written down at least 50 years after Jesus died. We are dealing with remembered history from oral tradition, metaphor, theology, myth and legend.

As a Christian it is my responsibility to try and separate out those different and diverse strands so I can locate and isolate the teachings of Jesus from the words and deeds that were attributed to him by the gospel writers. In other words, I try to separate their idea of Jesus from the actual historical figure who walked the dusty roads of Palestine.

Understood.

glorydaz
August 5th, 2015, 01:35 PM
Walk with me in my understanding. Doesn't choices come from the person's understanding. What's on the inside?

God created us to know Him..."that which may be known of God is manifest IN THEM." Thus all men are without excuse.


Romans 1:19-20 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

Bright Raven
August 5th, 2015, 01:46 PM
Do you believe this B 57?

1 John 4:10 Modern English Version (MEV)

10 In this is love: not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son to be the atoning sacrifice for our sins.

j4jesus09
August 5th, 2015, 01:52 PM
God created us to know Him..."that which may be known of God is manifest IN THEM." Thus all men are without excuse.


Romans 1:19-20 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

Agreed. So how can they resist? Most people go with the simple statement they reject, harden, don't agree or whatever. I think we hold man only or totally accoutable for resisting or rejecting God. What about the devil? What does the adversary do in all of this? What venom of literature is he pushing out. Most people that reject have another doctrine that has been implanted or pushed into their mind. Alot of people especially believers think that we can believe in the word over the deceptions of the devil which are targeted strictly to our fleshly desires. We as humans with any of our decision making will not choose God due to His contrary message and our desire to do the opposite. Good news we can come to believe in the word over all that but not from our own power. God literally must empower us to believe against ourself and the devil. The gospel does have that power contained within the message if God so allows the individual to repentance. Everyone will not believe it though because of the HOLD the devil has on them. NOT necessarily the hold they have on the devil. But God will break those chains in the right time!!

2 timothy 2:25-26

25correcting his opponents with gentleness. God may perhaps grant them repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth, 26and they may come to their senses and escape from the snare of the devil, after being captured by him to do his will.

Jerry Shugart
August 5th, 2015, 02:41 PM
So can we just understand the teaching without God?

No! We must understand that the gospel comes in the power of the Holy Spirit. If it came in word only then none of us could understand it.


Is something special inside of me?

No!


Am I more smart than another. Am I more wise than another? If so, did the next person not have the same inside them? If so, how can they understand. These are all valid questions that scripture teaches us about.

The difference between you and the unbelievers is the fact that you did not "resist the Holy Spirit."

And here we see why some resist the Holy Spirit:


"He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God" (Jn.3:18-21).

beloved57
August 5th, 2015, 02:42 PM
You are a scripture twister if you do not see that Anyone who calls on the name will be saved.

I know you don't believe or understand the scriptures you quote all the time!

beloved57
August 5th, 2015, 02:44 PM
Yes. Freewill is attached to choice. We must choose what we believe.

What scripture says people must choose what they believe ?

Bright Raven
August 5th, 2015, 02:48 PM
What scripture says people must choose what they believe ?Romans 10:13 Modern English Version (MEV)

13 For, “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved.”

Joel 2:32 Modern English Version (MEV)

32 And it will be that everyone
who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.
For on Mount Zion and in Jerusalem
there will be deliverance,
as the Lord has said,
and among the survivors
whom the Lord calls.

beloved57
August 5th, 2015, 02:52 PM
Romans 10:13 Modern English Version (MEV)

13 For, “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved.”

Joel 2:32 Modern English Version (MEV)

32 And it will be that everyone
who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.
For on Mount Zion and in Jerusalem
there will be deliverance,
as the Lord has said,
and among the survivors
whom the Lord calls.
Not one of those scriptures say that a person must choose what to believe! You don't believe or understand those verses!

j4jesus09
August 5th, 2015, 02:53 PM
No! We must understand that the gospel comes in the power of the Holy Spirit. If it came in word only then none of us could understand it.



No!



The difference between you and the unbelievers is the fact that you did not "resist the Holy Spirit."

And here we see why some resist the Holy Spirit:


"He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God" (Jn.3:18-21).

I believe I know from my understanding but help me to understand Jerry why I did not resist the holy spirit? From your perspective.

Bright Raven
August 5th, 2015, 02:55 PM
Not one of those scriptures say that a person must choose what to believe! You don't believe or understand those verses!

You do not comprehend the English language very well do you? A second language for you maybe?

beloved57
August 5th, 2015, 02:58 PM
You do not comprehend the English language very well do you? A second language for you maybe?

And you have the nerve to say that someone twist scriptures!

Bright Raven
August 5th, 2015, 03:01 PM
And you have the nerve to say that someone twist scriptures!

You do not believe that you can be saved by calling on the name of the Lord? SHAME on you.

beloved57
August 5th, 2015, 03:15 PM
You do not believe that you can be saved by calling on the name of the Lord? SHAME on you.

I don't believe you know anything about being saved!

Bright Raven
August 5th, 2015, 03:40 PM
I don't believe you know anything about being saved!

:darwinsm: You're lost man. Believe the gospel and get saved.

1 Corinthians 15:1-4 Modern English Version (MEV)

1 Now, brothers, I declare to you the gospel which I preached to you, which you have received, and in which you stand.

2 Through it you are saved, if you keep in memory what I preached to you, unless you have believed in vain.

3 For I delivered to you first of all that which I also received: how Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures,

4 was buried, rose again the third day according to the Scriptures,

Jerry Shugart
August 5th, 2015, 07:42 PM
I believe I know from my understanding but help me to understand Jerry why I did not resist the holy spirit? From your perspective.

I would say that you resemble the publican here and not the Pharisee:


"Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican. The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican. I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess. And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner. I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted" (Lk.18:10-14).

Robert Pate
August 6th, 2015, 05:01 AM
No! We must understand that the gospel comes in the power of the Holy Spirit. If it came in word only then none of us could understand it.



No!



The difference between you and the unbelievers is the fact that you did not "resist the Holy Spirit."

And here we see why some resist the Holy Spirit:


"He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God" (Jn.3:18-21).


Not all that hear the Gospel are effected by it.

"For unto us was the Gospel preached, as well as unto them; but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it" Hebrews 4:2.

beloved57
August 6th, 2015, 05:46 AM
Not all that hear the Gospel are effected by it.

"For unto us was the Gospel preached, as well as unto them; but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it" Hebrews 4:2.

The natural man receives not the things of God and can't know them because they are spiritually discerned 1Cor 2:14! He can't believe the Gospel Rom 8:8 because he can't please God!

Nanja
August 6th, 2015, 06:27 AM
:darwinsm: You're lost man. Believe the gospel and get saved.

1 Corinthians 15:1-4 Modern English Version (MEV)

1 Now, brothers, I declare to you the gospel which I preached to you, which you have received, and in which you stand.

2 Through it you are saved, if you keep in memory what I preached to you, unless you have believed in vain.

3 For I delivered to you first of all that which I also received: how Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures,

4 was buried, rose again the third day according to the Scriptures,


Those verses are directed to the Church of God,
sanctified in Christ Jesus and called to be Saints 1 Cor 1:2.
They are the only ones whose sins Christ died for Eph. 5:25.

Believing the Gospel is not a work a carnal man does to become saved,
but Believing is the evidence of being given the Spirit John 3:27,
for Faith / Belief is a fruit of the Spirit Gal. 5:22.

Salvation has only been provided to those chosen Elect, in Christ,
before the world began Eph. 1:1-11.

2 Tim. 1:9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling,
not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace,
which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began

2 Thes. 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you,
brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning
chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth


The whole matter of Salvation in Christ, and those who were chosen to receive it,
was already settled in Eternity. It's a done deal!

~~~~~

beloved57
August 6th, 2015, 06:45 AM
Those verses are directed to the Church of God,
sanctified in Christ Jesus and called to be Saints 1 Cor 1:2.
They are the only ones whose sins Christ died for Eph. 5:25.

Believing the Gospel is not a work a carnal man does to become saved,
but Believing is the evidence of being given the Spirit John 3:27,
for Faith / Belief is a fruit of the Spirit Gal. 5:22.

Salvation has only been provided to those chosen Elect, in Christ,
before the world began Eph. 1:1-11.

2 Tim. 1:9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling,
not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace,
which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began

2 Thes. 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you,
brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning
chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth


The whole matter of Salvation in Christ, and those who were chosen to receive it,
was already settled in Eternity. It's a done deal!

~~~~~

Amen, he doesnt understand or believe 1 Cor 15:1-4, best he can do is quote them !

Nanja
August 6th, 2015, 07:00 AM
Amen, he doesnt understand or believe 1 Cor 15:1-4, best he can do is quote them !


That's right!

And he laughs, and then quotes those verses in a boasting manner. Saying:


Bright Raven

Believe the gospel and get saved.


:nono:


Eph. 2:8-9 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves:
it is the gift of God: (v.9) Not of works, lest any man should boast.

~~~~~

beloved57
August 6th, 2015, 08:34 AM
That's right!

And he laughs, and then quotes those verses in a boasting manner. Saying:


Bright Raven


:nono:


Eph. 2:8-9 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves:
it is the gift of God: (v.9) Not of works, lest any man should boast.

~~~~~
Right, get saved! A unlearned comment! Like Salvation is in the hands of man!

Nanja
August 6th, 2015, 09:50 AM
Right, get saved! A unlearned comment! Like Salvation is in the hands of man!


That "get saved" comment just displays their ignorance of what the scriptures teach.

The non-elect world does falsely believe that Salvation is in their own hands, giving glory to their own "freewill".

Yet, it was God's Purpose for them to remain in blindness; deprived from the Light of Christ's Glorious Gospel John 9:39.

~~~~~

beloved57
August 6th, 2015, 10:21 AM
That "get saved" comment just displays their ignorance of what the scriptures teach.Yep !

The non-elect world does falsely believe that Salvation is in their own hands, giving glory to their own "freewill". Absolutely !

Yet, it was God's Purpose for them to remain in blindness; deprived from the Light of Christ's Glorious Gospel John 9:39. Amen !

~~~~~

j4jesus09
August 6th, 2015, 01:52 PM
I would say that you resemble the publican here and not the Pharisee:


"Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican. The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican. I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess. And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner. I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted" (Lk.18:10-14).

I definetly feel like I identify with the man that just cries out. But, why am I that man what caused me to become that man? God seen fit to create a path for me to come to my senses and cry out. If it was up to me in my unrepentant lifestyle and that path I wanted to take it wouldn't have been to cry out to God or repent. God chooses us before we choose him. God is Holy!

Bright Raven
August 6th, 2015, 02:13 PM
Rubbish to B57's previous post.

aikido7
August 6th, 2015, 02:28 PM
One reference to the theology of atonement is the verse that says Jesus was offered as a "ransom for many."

Most traditional Christians have absolutely no idea of what is meant by this phrase.

No, it has nothing to do with blood atonement. The Greek word for "ransom" is lutron. It has nothing to do with atoms and molecules. It is a word to describe the payment meant to release a person from captivity.

Now we can easily reframe this to our own modern sensibilities by asserting that Jesus death liberates us from the prison of sin. But this would be adding to the text and if we are going to believe this interpretation we need to be honest about how we are using it.

"Ransom for many" does not refer to a blood sacrifice for sin. But it can certainly be interpreted that way. In fact, that's what we Christians often do. We try to stretch or extract a meaning from the Bible that will make sense for US .

Robert Pate
August 7th, 2015, 08:36 AM
One reference to the theology of atonement is the verse that says Jesus was offered as a "ransom for many."

Most traditional Christians have absolutely no idea of what is meant by this phrase.

No, it has nothing to do with blood atonement. The Greek word for "ransom" is lutron. It has nothing to do with atoms and molecules. It is a word to describe the payment meant to release a person from captivity.

Now we can easily reframe this to our own modern sensibilities by asserting that Jesus death liberates us from the prison of sin. But this would be adding to the text and if we are going to believe this interpretation we need to be honest about how we are using it.

"Ransom for many" does not refer to a blood sacrifice for sin. But it can certainly be interpreted that way. In fact, that's what we Christians often do. We try to stretch or extract a meaning from the Bible that will make sense for US .

I believe that many try to extract a meaning from the Bible that supports their religion or their doctrine. There is much scrpiture twisting going on, on this Forum.

Man.0
August 7th, 2015, 10:10 AM
I believe that many try to extract a meaning from the Bible that supports their religion or their doctrine. There is much scrpiture twisting going on, on this Forum.

Are you amongst those Scripture-twisters?

Robert Pate
August 7th, 2015, 12:28 PM
Are you amongst those Scripture-twisters?

No, I teach the Gospel that justifies the ungodly, Romans 4:5 and reconciles us and the world unto God, 2 Corinthians 5:18, 19.

What is your Gospel?

Man.0
August 7th, 2015, 01:55 PM
No, I teach the Gospel that justifies the ungodly, Romans 4:5 and reconciles us and the world unto God, 2 Corinthians 5:18, 19.

So you're a teacher, are you?

'Not many of you should become teachers, my brothers, for you know that we who teach will be judged with greater strictness.' (James 3:1)

Are you amongst the few who should be teachers?

What do you know? Yet you see yourself as a teacher and presume to teach others. Could it be that you teach false things? Are you a teacher in the eyes of God? Have you been prepared and qualified by Him, to teach?


What is your Gospel?

I'm not a teacher or preacher, but if I was, the gospel (meaning 'good news') that I would preach is the gospel of Jesus Christ. The gospel of salvation; the good news of universal reconciliation to God.

'But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost: In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them' 2 Corinthians 4:3-4

Is it true that you yourself teach, and preach, a false gospel?

'But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel other than what we have preached to you, a curse be on him!' (Galatians 1:8)

Jerry Shugart
August 7th, 2015, 02:22 PM
The Importance of Believing that Jesus Atoned for the Sins of the World

Why will you not directly address Peter's words here?:


"To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins" (Acts 10:43).

If all men's sins are already remitted or expiated then how is it possible for those who believe to have their sins expiated since they have already been expiated?

In other words, how can a believer's sins be taken away if their are no sins to be taken away?

Please give me your interpretation of the meaning of Peter's words at Acts 10:43.

beloved57
August 7th, 2015, 03:25 PM
Why will you not directly address Peter's words here?:


"To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins" (Acts 10:43).

If all men's sins are already remitted or expiated then how is it possible for those who believe to have their sins expiated since they have already been expiated?

In other words, how can a believer's sins be taken away if their are no sins to be taken away?

Please give me your interpretation of the meaning of Peter's words at Acts 10:43.

Why not you explain Acts 10:43 ? You bought it up!

Jerry Shugart
August 7th, 2015, 06:50 PM
Why not you explain Acts 10:43 ? You bought it up!

I already have! Why don't you pay attention?

beloved57
August 7th, 2015, 07:00 PM
I already have! Why don't you pay attention?
No you haven't, what you stated the verse doesn't read that way !

Robert Pate
August 8th, 2015, 07:02 AM
Why will you not directly address Peter's words here?:


"To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins" (Acts 10:43).

If all men's sins are already remitted or expiated then how is it possible for those who believe to have their sins expiated since they have already been expiated?

In other words, how can a believer's sins be taken away if their are no sins to be taken away?

Please give me your interpretation of the meaning of Peter's words at Acts 10:43.


All that have come to Christ as repentant sinners are sealed with the Holy Spirit and are "In Christ". Their sins have been forgiven.

God sees them as perfect and complete in Christ, Colossians 2:10.

In God's eyes Jesus has reconciled the whole world unto God, 2 Corinthians 5:19. As far as God is concerned sin, death and the devil have been abolished because of Christ, Colossians 2:15. If there was one sin that was not atoned for Jesus would not be in heaven.

But not all are "In Christ". Many are still dead in tresspasses and sins. They have not entered into his rest, Hebrews 4:3.

Even though God sees ALL THINGS in His Son Jesus Christ we must still enter into the faith, Acts 10:43 means that all that believe have entered into the faith and have had their sins remitted.

I don't fully understand how God has dealt with the sins of the world, but I believe that he has. Jesus claims to be the savior of the world, John 12:47.

Robert Pate
August 8th, 2015, 07:08 AM
So you're a teacher, are you?

'Not many of you should become teachers, my brothers, for you know that we who teach will be judged with greater strictness.' (James 3:1)

Are you amongst the few who should be teachers?

What do you know? Yet you see yourself as a teacher and presume to teach others. Could it be that you teach false things? Are you a teacher in the eyes of God? Have you been prepared and qualified by Him, to teach?



I'm not a teacher or preacher, but if I was, the gospel (meaning 'good news') that I would preach is the gospel of Jesus Christ. The gospel of salvation; the good news of universal reconciliation to God.

'But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost: In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them' 2 Corinthians 4:3-4

Is it true that you yourself teach, and preach, a false gospel?

'But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel other than what we have preached to you, a curse be on him!' (Galatians 1:8)


If you are preaching a Gospel that does not justify the ungodly, Romans 4:5 and does not reconcile you and the world unto God, 2 Corinthians 5:18, 19. Then you have the wrong Gospel.

Jerry Shugart
August 8th, 2015, 08:38 AM
But not all are "In Christ". Many are still dead in tresspasses and sins. They have not entered into his rest, Hebrews 4:3.

You say that their sins have been remitted or expiated.

However, Peter makes it plain that only those who 'believe" have their sins remitted or expiated:


"To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins" (Acts 10:43).

Your ideas about unbelievers having their sins expiated is easily shown to be in error. Those who do not believe will die in their sins, as witnessed by the following words of the Lord Jesus:


"I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins" (Jn.8:24).

How can anyone die in their sins if those sins have already been been expiated?

beloved57
August 8th, 2015, 08:44 AM
All that have come to Christ as repentant sinners are sealed with the Holy Spirit and are "In Christ". Their sins have been forgiven.

God sees them as perfect and complete in Christ, Colossians 2:10.

In God's eyes Jesus has reconciled the whole world unto God, 2 Corinthians 5:19. As far as God is concerned sin, death and the devil have been abolished because of Christ, Colossians 2:15. If there was one sin that was not atoned for Jesus would not be in heaven.

But not all are "In Christ". Many are still dead in tresspasses and sins. They have not entered into his rest, Hebrews 4:3.

Even though God sees ALL THINGS in His Son Jesus Christ we must still enter into the faith, Acts 10:43 means that all that believe have entered into the faith and have had their sins remitted.

I don't fully understand how God has dealt with the sins of the world, but I believe that he has. Jesus claims to be the savior of the world, John 12:47.

Unscriptural Comments!

Man.0
August 8th, 2015, 11:52 AM
If you are preaching a Gospel that does not justify the ungodly, Romans 4:5 and does not reconcile you and the world unto God, 2 Corinthians 5:18, 19. Then you have the wrong Gospel.

Says Robert Pate - the one who defines what the gospel is.

Robert Pate
August 8th, 2015, 12:30 PM
Says Robert Pate - the one who defines what the gospel is.


The Bible defines what the Gospel is, not me.

Paul said that the Gospel, "Is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believes" Romans 1:16.

That is everyone that believes the Gospel.

To believe the Gospel is to believe that Jesus has defeated and has overcome the sins of the whole world, 1 John 2:2.

Daniel1611
August 8th, 2015, 01:03 PM
The Bible defines what the Gospel is, not me.

Paul said that the Gospel, "Is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believes" Romans 1:16.

That is everyone that believes the Gospel.

To believe the Gospel is to believe that Jesus has defeated and has overcome the sins of the whole world, 1 John 2:2.

Robert, we are in the minority. If you don't believe people were ever saved by works and you don't believe on 100 ways to be saved in the Bible, you are in the minority on TOL. Thankfully, I haven't met many Christians in person who claim to believe in different ways to be saved. It was faith alone from Adam onward. Period.

Robert Pate
August 8th, 2015, 01:08 PM
Robert, we are in the minority. If you don't believe people were ever saved by works and you don't believe on 100 ways to be saved in the Bible, you are in the minority on TOL. Thankfully, I haven't met many Christians in person who claim to believe in different ways to be saved. It was faith alone from Adam onward. Period.


I suppose that is why Jesus said, "And few there be that find it" Matthew 7:14.

Daniel1611
August 8th, 2015, 01:10 PM
I suppose that is why Jesus said, "And few there be that find it" Matthew 7:14.

Yes, straight is the gate and narrow is the way.

Robert Pate
August 8th, 2015, 01:12 PM
Yes, straight is the gate and narrow is the way.

Yes, and Jesus is the strait gate.

Daniel1611
August 8th, 2015, 01:12 PM
Yes, and Jesus is the strait gate.

Yes, sir. Amen.

Man.0
August 8th, 2015, 01:14 PM
The Bible defines what the Gospel is, not me.

Paul said that the Gospel, "Is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believes" Romans 1:16.

That is everyone that believes the Gospel.

To believe the Gospel is to believe that Jesus has defeated and has overcome the sins of the whole world, 1 John 2:2.

And what's the evidence that a person believes?

Daniel1611
August 8th, 2015, 01:16 PM
And what's the evidence that a person believes?

Only God knows if you believe in your heart.

Man.0
August 8th, 2015, 01:16 PM
Robert, we are in the minority. If you don't believe people were ever saved by works and you don't believe on 100 ways to be saved in the Bible, you are in the minority on TOL. Thankfully, I haven't met many Christians in person who claim to believe in different ways to be saved. It was faith alone from Adam onward. Period.

Where does works have its place in your theology? Or is there no place for it ?

Man.0
August 8th, 2015, 01:19 PM
Only God knows if you believe in your heart.

God knows the heart. But will not evidence of belief/faith be manifest in your actions - namely, obedience? Or does one only need to 'believe'?

Daniel1611
August 8th, 2015, 01:19 PM
Where does works have its place in your theology? Or is there no place for it ?

You need to do the works first and foremost because God said so. That's reason enough.

Second, we should do the works because we care about God, others and ourselves .

Third, to live a life pleasing to God

And fourth, God will chastise his children in this earth when we don't obey.

But, if we believe in our heart and confess with our mouth that we believe on the LORD Jesus Christ, we don't go to hell when we don't do the works because we are saved. He gives unto us eternal life and we will never perish.

Daniel1611
August 8th, 2015, 01:22 PM
God knows the heart. But will not evidence of belief/faith be manifest in your actions - namely, obedience? Or does one only need to 'believe'?

There is not a just man upon the earth that doeth good and sinneth not. If a man obeys the whole law yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

Show me obedient people.

Man.0
August 8th, 2015, 01:35 PM
You need to do the works first and foremost because God said so. That's reason enough.

Second, we should do the works because we care about God, others and ourselves .

Third, to live a life pleasing to God

And fourth, God will chastise his children in this earth when we don't obey.

But, if we believe in our heart and confess with our mouth that we believe on the LORD Jesus Christ, we don't go to hell when we don't do the works because we are saved. He gives unto us eternal life and we will never perish.

So we are saved instantly 'if we believe in our heart and confess with our mouth that we believe on the LORD Jesus Christ'? What about overcoming and enduring - what part does that play? Didn't Jesus say 'the one who overcomes, the same shall be saved ' (Matthew 24:13; Revelation 3:5) ?

It appears you've been deceived by a false gospel.

Man.0
August 8th, 2015, 01:42 PM
There is not a just man upon the earth that doeth good and sinneth not. If a man obeys the whole law yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

Show me obedient people.

So you're saying or implying that it's impossible to obey? If its impossible why did Jesus tell us to 'be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect'? And why is it written, 'Be holy, because I am holy' (1 Peter 1:16)? Why would Christ command us to do that which is impossible?

Daniel1611
August 8th, 2015, 01:42 PM
So we are saved instantly 'if we believe in our heart and confess with our mouth that we believe on the LORD Jesus Christ'? What about overcoming and enduring - what part does that play? Didn't Jesus say 'the one who overcomes, the same shall be saved ' (Matthew 24:13; Revelation 3:5) ?

It appears you've been deceived by a false gospel.

Jesus said "He that believeth in me hath everlasting life."

Those enduring to the end, if you read the context, are Christians in the tribulation period. If they can endure it, they are physically saved when Christ returns. If they die during the tribulation, they still go to heaven.

Read John 3, Acts 16, or pretty much any book in the Bible and salvation is clearly by faith alone. I'm quite frankly tired of debating the fundamentals of Christianity like salvation by faith or the deity of Christ. I'm interested in discussing various things with saved Christians. I'm tired of debating unsaved pretenders who are far outside of orthodox Christianity and who like it that way. Stay ignorant if you want. I'm interested in discussions with Christians, not arguing with Catholics, Jehovahs Witnesses or Jews or whatever unsaved, works salvationist group you belong to.

Daniel1611
August 8th, 2015, 01:45 PM
So you're saying or implying that it's impossible to obey? If its impossible why did Jesus tell us to 'be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect'? And why is it written, 'Be holy, because I am holy' (1 Peter 1:16)? Why would Christ command us to do that which is impossible?

Did I say it's not possible? No. The Bible says that no one does it.

Robert Pate
August 8th, 2015, 04:15 PM
And what's the evidence that a person believes?

They bear fruit.

aikido7
August 8th, 2015, 04:26 PM
The blood atonement theology is essential for everyday Christians. They have the desperate need to be forgiven and if all the suffering for this forgiveness is placed on Jesus, then so much the better.

They seem to want to go to heaven rather than take Jesus' mission and preaching seriously.

Jerry Shugart
August 8th, 2015, 04:49 PM
But not all are "In Christ". Many are still dead in tresspasses and sins. They have not entered into his rest, Hebrews 4:3.

You say that their sins have been remitted or expiated.

However, Peter makes it plain that only those who 'believe" have their sins remitted or expiated:


"To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins" (Acts 10:43).

Your ideas about unbelievers having their sins expiated is easily shown to be in error. Those who do not believe will die in their sins, as witnessed by the following words of the Lord Jesus:


"I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins" (Jn.8:24).

How can anyone die in their sins if those sins have already been been expiated?

beloved57
August 9th, 2015, 02:30 AM
The Bible defines what the Gospel is, not me.

Paul said that the Gospel, "Is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believes" Romans 1:16.

That is everyone that believes the Gospel.

To believe the Gospel is to believe that Jesus has defeated and has overcome the sins of the whole world, 1 John 2:2.

False comments !

Robert Pate
August 9th, 2015, 08:07 AM
You say that their sins have been remitted or expiated.

However, Peter makes it plain that only those who 'believe" have their sins remitted or expiated:


"To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins" (Acts 10:43).

Your ideas about unbelievers having their sins expiated is easily shown to be in error. Those who do not believe will die in their sins, as witnessed by the following words of the Lord Jesus:


"I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins" (Jn.8:24).

How can anyone die in their sins if those sins have already been been expiated?


Their sins are imputed back to them in the judgment, Romans 4:7, 8.

beloved57
August 9th, 2015, 08:30 AM
Their sins are imputed back to them in the judgment, Romans 4:7, 8.

Invalid comment not supported by scripture!

Robert Pate
August 9th, 2015, 08:34 AM
Invalid comment not supported by scripture!

Maybe you can't read, Romans 4:7, 8.

The Lord can and will impute your sins back to you, judge you and condemn you to hell.

beloved57
August 9th, 2015, 08:38 AM
Maybe you can't read, Romans 4:7, 8.

The Lord can and will impute your sins back to you, judge you and condemn you to hell.

I read just fine!

Robert Pate
August 9th, 2015, 08:43 AM
I read just fine!


No, you read everything with your Calvinist glasses.

beloved57
August 9th, 2015, 08:45 AM
No, you read everything with your Calvinist glasses.

You don't believe the Gospel, Calvinism is the Gospel of Gods Grace in Christ!

Man.0
August 9th, 2015, 09:52 AM
Jesus said "He that believeth in me hath everlasting life."

Jesus also said 'The one who has My commands and keeps them is the one who loves Me.' (John 14:21)

You imply that only faith is necessary, but what did James say about that?

'What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him? If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, and one of you says to them, “Depart in peace, be warmed and filled,” but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit? Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead. But someone will say, “You have faith, and I have works.” Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works. You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble! But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead? Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” And he was called the friend of God. You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only. Likewise, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way? For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.' (James 2:14-26)


Those enduring to the end, if you read the context, are Christians in the tribulation period.

But there are believers (such as the apostles) who did not go through the 'tribulation period' of the last days; yet those apostles, those believers, have infact endured to the end. They have gone through their own personal, spiritual tribulation, and have emerged at the other side. Thus they are endurers and overcomers. They have endured personal, spiritual trials and have overcome the world, the flesh and the devil, by the grace of God, and through the faith of God.

'For everyone who has been born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world—our faith.' (1 John 5:4)

'I write to you, fathers, because you have known Him Who is from the beginning. I have written to you, young men, because you are strong, and the Word of God abides in you, and you have overcome the evil one' (1 John 2:14)

Some of those who have endured and overcome, have been slain for their testimony:

'And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?' (Revelation 6:9-10)

Would you not count being slain for the testimony of Christ as having undergone tribulation?

From the start of Revelation (Revelation 2:7-11; Revelation 3:21), to its middle part (Revelation 12:11), to its end (Revelation 21:7); Jesus declares the overcomers and endurers as being the ones who will be, and are, saved.

Do you think that it is only the believers during the last days who go through tribulation? What about the disciples, did they not have to go through tribulation? Did they not say that one must go through much tribulation to enter the kingdom of God?

'When they had preached the gospel to that city and had made many disciples, they returned to Lystra and to Iconium and to Antioch, strengthening the souls of the disciples, encouraging them to continue in the faith, and saying that through many tribulations we must enter the kingdom of God ' (Acts 14:21-22)

If the tribulation is only a time period during the 'last days', how is it that the disciples - who are all physically dead - went through it?


If they can endure it, they are physically saved when Christ returns. If they die during the tribulation, they still go to heaven.

There are two tribulations. Firstly, the external tribulation that the world must go through (Revelation 3:10) - which is the one you seem to be referring to. Secondly, there is an inner tribulation, which is an individual process that each and every believer must go through. Peter went through that inner tribulation, Paul went through that inner tribulation, Jesus went through that inner tribulation. All believers must go through that inner tribulation.


Read John 3, Acts 16, or pretty much any book in the Bible and salvation is clearly by faith alone.

What verses did you have mind in relation to John 3? Are you referring to John 3:14-16?

I've checked different bible translations and it appears there are least two versions of these verses. One that only states 'have' or 'gain', without using 'will' before it, such as:

'And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life. For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.' (New King James Version)

'And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of Man be lifted up, that whoever believes in him may have eternal life. “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.' (English Standard Version)

The other versions include 'will' before 'have' or 'gain'. Such as in these translations:

'And the Son of Man must be lifted up, just as that metal snake was lifted up by Moses in the desert. Then everyone who has faith in the Son of Man will have eternal life. God loved the people of this world so much that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who has faith in him will have eternal life and never really die.' (Contemporary English Version)

'No one has ever gone up into the presence of God except the One who came down from that Presence, the Son of Man. In the same way that Moses lifted the serpent in the desert so people could have something to see and then believe, it is necessary for the Son of Man to be lifted up—and everyone who looks up to him, trusting and expectant, will gain a real life, eternal life. “This is how much God loved the world: He gave his Son, his one and only Son. And this is why: so that no one need be destroyed; by believing in him, anyone can have a whole and lasting life' (MSG - The Message Bible)

In the translations which render 'have' or 'gain' without 'will', I think the meaning is ambiguous; because it does not let the reader know whether those who believe have eternal life presently, or whether they will have it at a time to come. I think that by not using the auxiliary verb of 'will', it makes the meaning ambiguous. Now, in the translations that do include 'will' it lets the reader know that is in the future tense; and thus the meaning is quite clear - that those believing in Christ will have salvation at a time to come.

In John 3, I do not think Jesus was saying that all you have to do to receive eternal life is to express a mental confirmation that He is the Son of God. Isn't that all your faith is, Daniel - a mental confirmation - something which you have produced by yourself?

What is salvation to you, Daniel; or how do you think the bible defines it? If you think that we believe and then instantly have salvation, then let me ask you: how has that salvation manifested in your life? If you presently have salvation (as a result of believing), do you still sin, Daniel? If so, how can you still sin after being perfected (which is what salvation is - being brought to a state of perfection) ?

Now on to Acts 16. Are you referring specifically to Acts 16:31, where Paul and Silas say ' “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.” '? Notice that they don't say ''Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you are saved..." or ''Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will have been saved'. They say 'Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved' (future tense). It's a process, not an instantaneous event. The process of salvation begins with faith; and the demonstration of works (i.e. obedience) - through faith - is part of that process. What you seem to have been implying is that salvation begins and ends at having faith. That is false. Faith is only the starting point.

I say this to you, Daniel - you who believe that you've been saved by faith alone:

'Have you testified to the adversaries of God by His Spirit? Have you been betrayed by your brethren and families because of your testimony of Christ? Have you been hated by all people for His Name’s sake? And, after being hated, have you endured to the end? No? Then you are not saved. '

(Source: http://www.thepathoftruth.com/blog-wars/imperfection-tries-to-argue-against-perfection-2.htm)

In other words, where is the evidence of your faith? Where is the testifying by His Spirit; the betrayal by your brethren and family because of your testimony of Christ; the persecution; the endurance to the end.... Where is all that in your life, Daniel?


I'm quite frankly tired of debating the fundamentals of Christianity like salvation by faith or the deity of Christ. I'm interested in discussing various things with saved Christians. I'm tired of debating unsaved pretenders who are far outside of orthodox Christianity and who like it that way.

It's plain - to the one who has discernment - that your eyes are blind, and your ears are deaf. You are not of Christ at all. You simply do not belong to Him, Daniel. Even though you claim to be a Christian - you're not a genuine one. You are deceived. And perhaps the worst thing is, you don't even know that it is so.
.
You need to repent and turn away from your own understanding, and your religious works - which are evident. Be honest with yourself (which you have not been) and go to God in genuine prayer, admitting in honesty that you have been deceived, and have deceived yourself, and that you desire the gift of repentance. Will you actually do this? That's the million dollar question.


Stay ignorant if you want.

The ignorant do not know they are ignorant. You do not know that you are, Daniel.

Stay in darkness if you wish. That's surely what you prefer isn't it?

'For everyone who practices wicked things hates the light and avoids it, so that his deeds may not be exposed.' (John 3:20)


I'm interested in discussions with Christians,

Discussions with other manufactured Christians like yourself?


not arguing with Catholics, Jehovahs Witnesses or Jews or whatever unsaved, works salvationist group you belong to.

I'm neither of those.

Interplanner
August 9th, 2015, 09:54 AM
Man.O:
James did not add to faith. He only said faith without action is like a corpse without a spirit. It is perfectly reasonable, and does not add a twit to the work of Christ alone.

Daniel1611
August 9th, 2015, 10:01 AM
Man.0 is a works salvationist. I have no tolerance for works-salvation teachers. They are so prideful and such liars that they will probably never admit their wickedness. They are self-righteous, hellbound hypocrites.

Jerry Shugart
August 9th, 2015, 10:19 AM
Their sins are imputed back to them in the judgment, Romans 4:7, 8.

The judgment of which you speak has not yet happened but many of those who did not believe have already died in their sins.

How could anyone die in their sins since you say that everyone's sins have already been expiated?

Brother Ducky
August 9th, 2015, 01:10 PM
Their sins are imputed back to them in the judgment, Romans 4:7, 8.


The re-imputation of sin[s] is not indicated in any way, form or fashion in Romans 4:7-8. To say so is to totally misread the passage, or to assign a meaning consistent with one's theological system but inconsistent to the plain meaning of the passage.

Or, pretty much what you chide Calvinists about.

Ben Masada
August 9th, 2015, 01:32 PM
The blood atonement theology is essential for everyday Christians. They have the desperate need to be forgiven and if all the suffering for this forgiveness is placed on Jesus, then so much the better.

They seem to want to go to heaven rather than take Jesus' mission and preaching seriously.

Only that, if the desperation of any one to be forgiven is placed upon Jesus, he will send him or her to forgive or get forgiveness by whom he or she offended. That's in Mat. 5:23,24.

Robert Pate
August 9th, 2015, 03:54 PM
The judgment of which you speak has not yet happened but many of those who did not believe have already died in their sins.

How could anyone die in their sins since you say that everyone's sins have already been expiated?


God sees ALL THINGS in his Son Jesus Christ, Colossians 1:20.

As far as God is concerned sin, death and the devil have been defeated, Colossians 2:15.

Jesus Christ is God's new humanity, 2 Corinthians 5:17.

When Jesus returns there will be a judgment of individuals. You will either be found in Christ or outside of Christ. If you are not in Christ your sins will be imputed back to you and you will be condemned, Romans 4:8.

It can't be any other way, unless you want to deny that Jesus is the savior of the world, John 12:47.

Robert Pate
August 9th, 2015, 03:58 PM
The re-imputation of sin[s] is not indicated in any way, form or fashion in Romans 4:7-8. To say so is to totally misread the passage, or to assign a meaning consistent with one's theological system but inconsistent to the plain meaning of the passage.

Or, pretty much what you chide Calvinists about.


Jesus claims to be the savior of the whole world, John 12:47.

Of course you don't believe that in spite of the many scriptures that says that he is.

aikido7
August 9th, 2015, 04:05 PM
Only that, if the desperation of any one to be forgiven is placed upon Jesus, he will send him or her to forgive or get forgiveness by whom he or she offended. That's in Mat. 5:23,24.But I fail to see any evidence that Jesus himself believed in a blood sacrifice for sin. I use these reasons to back me up:

***He was a kosher Jew who would have been disgusted by anything--even metaphorical--that entailed eating his flesh and drinking his blood, let alone be covered in it. This is a Jewish clean/unclean thing.

***He forgave plenty of folks long before his blood was spilled on Calvary.

***He believed in a God of mercy that wanted repentance, not blood spilled on the altar.

***He attacked the temple and priesthood that favored blood on the altar.

***He once quoted Hosea by asserting God "desires mercy, not sacrifice."

***He never said he was going to die for saving humankind's sins.
Only others after his death said that. In fact, the complete Christian theology of atonement was made 900 years after the crucifixion.

***And the Lord's prayer counsels forgiveness of self and others for sin--not a trip to the Divine Slaughterer on His own Son.

Interplanner
August 9th, 2015, 04:08 PM
Aikido,
you are mistaken about the atonement thing showing up 900 years later. he was called a propitiation for our sins in Romans 3:21+.

I think you are referring to a 'satisfying the devil' or 'paying the devil' doctrine from the medieval church

aikido7
August 9th, 2015, 04:17 PM
Aikido,
you are mistaken about the atonement thing showing up 900 years later. he was called a propitiation for our sins in Romans 3:21+.

I think you are referring to a 'satisfying the devil' or 'paying the devil' doctrine from the medieval churchI don't agree because Paul was written around the 50s and 60s long after Jesus died. It reflects a theological meaning written to make sense of his death and resurrection.

It became dogma and was taken literally by some of the early Christians.

Anselm of Canterbury worked out the blood sacrifice theology.

By the way, the word "ransom" in "ransom for sin" is lutron in the original Greek. It denotes a ransom paid to release someone from captivity.
It has nothing to do with blood sacrifice.

Robert Pate
August 9th, 2015, 04:37 PM
I don't agree because Paul was written around the 50s and 60s long after Jesus died. It reflects a theological meaning written to make sense of his death and resurrection.

It became dogma and was taken literally by some of the early Christians.

Anselm of Canterbury worked out the blood sacrifice theology.

By the way, the word "ransom" in "ransom for sin" is lutron in the original Greek. It denotes a ransom paid to release someone from captivity.
It has nothing to do with blood sacrifice.


Wow! Are you screwed up.

The word "Blood" appears in the Bible over 450 times.

"In whom we have redemption through his BLOOD, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace" Ephesians 1:7.

aikido7
August 9th, 2015, 04:51 PM
Wow! Are you screwed up.In other words, you do not believe me and do not think my evidence is persuasive.


The word "Blood" appears in the Bible over 450 times.I don't doubt it.

There were two traditions surrounding this issue from Genesis on and there are two strands plainly identified in the texts by researchers. The older tradition was a God of mercy who demanded repentance. This, in my opinion, is Jesus' view.

I have already presented my evidence for this. Besides Jesus himself never says he was to be a sacrifice for sin.

A newer view (also ancient but newer than the repentance/forgiveness model) came from Moses' brother Aaron and the priestly line that developed from his followers. This model stressed an angry and jealous God of justice who demanded a blood sacrifice.


"In whom we have redemption through his BLOOD, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace" Ephesians 1:7.Let's remember that Ephesians was written after Jesus lived and died. It reflects the later framework and it was placed over Jesus' life as a faith statement to show meaning, not actual factually correct matters.

Zeke
August 9th, 2015, 04:51 PM
I don't agree because Paul was written around the 50s and 60s long after Jesus died. It reflects a theological meaning written to make sense of his death and resurrection.

It became dogma and was taken literally by some of the early Christians.

Anselm of Canterbury worked out the blood sacrifice theology.

By the way, the word "ransom" in "ransom for sin" is lutron in the original Greek. It denotes a ransom paid to release someone from captivity.
It has nothing to do with blood sacrifice.

Alvin Boyd Kuhn wrote about the shadow of the third century, which exposes the literal interpretation of scripture as a fraud.

aikido7
August 9th, 2015, 04:55 PM
Alvin Boyd Kuhn wrote about the shadow of the third century, which exposes the literal interpretation of scripture as a fraud.

I don't see literalism as a fraud. I just regard it as not going far or deep enough.

Literalism, rationality and logic grew out of the Enlightenment of the 1700s. Myth, metaphor and other religious sacred language was given short shirt. This fact is what unites both believers as well as atheists.

We are still grappling with this question today.

Squeaky
August 9th, 2015, 05:33 PM
To deny that Jesus atoned for the sins of the world is to deny that Jesus is Lord.

"And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a show of them openly, triumphing over them in it" Colossians 2:15.

When Jesus atoned for the sins of the world he defeated sin, death and the devil and reconciled the world unto God, 2 Corinthians 5:18, 19. To deny that Jesus defeated sin, death and the devil is to deny the Gospel and that the world has been reconciled unto God.

Paul said that the Gospel is... "The power of God unto salvation to everyone that believes" Romans 1:16. To everyone that believes the Gospel.

To deny that Jesus is the savior of the world and that he has atoned for the sins of the world is to deny that you are a Christian and have eternal life. Plain and simple.

From the Old Testament unto the New Testament the Bible teaches that the "JUST SHALL LIVE BY FAITH" Romans 1:17. They live by faith in God's promises and God's word.

It is very obvious that those who deny that Jesus is the savior of the world are NOT of the faith.

I said
Help me out here. I can only find the word "atoned" in one verse in the whole bible. And it is in the old testament. Could you define it for me?

1 Sam 3:14
14 "And therefore I have sworn to the house of Eli that the iniquity of Eli's house shall not be atoned for by sacrifice or offering forever."
(NKJ)

flintstoned
August 9th, 2015, 06:11 PM
God sees ALL THINGS in his Son Jesus Christ, Colossians 1:20.

As far as God is concerned sin, death and the devil have been defeated, Colossians 2:15.

Jesus Christ is God's new humanity, 2 Corinthians 5:17.

When Jesus returns there will be a judgment of individuals. You will either be found in Christ or outside of Christ. If you are not in Christ your sins will be imputed back to you and you will be condemned, Romans 4:8.

It can't be any other way, unless you want to deny that Jesus is the savior of the world, John 12:47.

Romans does not say that sin will not be imputed BACK to you! It says that "Blessed is the one whose sin the Lord will never count against them."

The elect are blessed because the Lord will never count their sins against them. The Non-elect are not blessed because their sins were never atoned for to begin with, and they will be counted against them,

beloved57
August 9th, 2015, 07:46 PM
God sees ALL THINGS in his Son Jesus Christ, Colossians 1:20.

As far as God is concerned sin, death and the devil have been defeated, Colossians 2:15.

Jesus Christ is God's new humanity, 2 Corinthians 5:17.

When Jesus returns there will be a judgment of individuals. You will either be found in Christ or outside of Christ. If you are not in Christ your sins will be imputed back to you and you will be condemned, Romans 4:8.

It can't be any other way, unless you want to deny that Jesus is the savior of the world, John 12:47.

Invalid comments not supported by scripture!

Brother Ducky
August 9th, 2015, 08:11 PM
Jesus claims to be the savior of the whole world, John 12:47.

Of course you don't believe that in spite of the many scriptures that says that he is.

Not really a response to the issue at hand. You claim, often, that God imputes sin back to some certain individuals. You reference a verse that, at first glance, says not a thing about this so-called imputation. Defend your position, please, if are so able.

Robert Pate
August 10th, 2015, 07:36 AM
Not really a response to the issue at hand. You claim, often, that God imputes sin back to some certain individuals. You reference a verse that, at first glance, says not a thing about this so-called imputation. Defend your position, please, if are so able.

Do you have a concordance? Look up the word "Impute" "Imputed" "Imputeth" "Imputing".

IMPUTE: 1, To attribute (a fault, crime,etc.) to a person; charge.

God not only imputes sin, he also imputes righteousness, Romans 4:22.

In the judgment if you are not found to be "In Christ" your sins will be imputed to you and you will be condemned. That is the purpose of the judgment.

This is why the scripture says... "Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin" Romans 4:8.

beloved57
August 10th, 2015, 07:53 AM
Do you have a concordance? Look up the word "Impute" "Imputed" "Imputeth" "Imputing".

IMPUTE: 1, To attribute (a fault, crime,etc.) to a person; charge.

God not only imputes sin, he also imputes righteousness, Romans 4:22.

In the judgment if you are not found to be "In Christ" your sins will be imputed to you and you will be condemned. That is the purpose of the judgment.

This is why the scripture says... "Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin" Romans 4:8.

Invalid comments, not supported by scripture !

Robert Pate
August 10th, 2015, 07:57 AM
Invalid comments, not supported by scripture !

That post was not directed to you.

Jerry Shugart
August 10th, 2015, 08:55 AM
If you are not in Christ your sins will be imputed back to you and you will be condemned, Romans 4:8.

The Lord Jesus did not bare the sins of all on the Cross but instead only those who believe:


"Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors" (Isa.53:12).

It is only those who have been baptized into the Body of Christ who are identified with the Lord Jesus' death on the Cross, the death which expiates sins:


"Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death" (Ro.6:3-4).

According to your ideas those who have not been baptized into the Body of Christ have also been baptized into His death.

Robert Pate
August 10th, 2015, 09:41 AM
The Lord Jesus did not bare the sins of all on the Cross but instead only those who believe:


"Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors" (Isa.53:12).

It is only those who have been baptized into the Body of Christ who are identified with the Lord Jesus' death on the Cross, the death which expiates sins:


"Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death" (Ro.6:3-4).

According to your ideas those who have not been baptized into the Body of Christ have also been baptized into His death.


The Bible plainly teaches that Jesus died for the sins of the whole world, 1 John 2:2, 1 John 4:14, John 12:47, Hebrews 2:9, 1 Timothy 4:10.

If Jesus did not victoriously defeat sin, death and the devil, God would not have accepted him into heaven. Colossians 2:15.

Salvation has been provided for all, but not all want it. All that Jesus is and all that he has done becomes ours by simple faith.

beloved57
August 10th, 2015, 10:22 AM
The Bible plainly teaches that Jesus died for the sins of the whole world, 1 John 2:2, 1 John 4:14, John 12:47, Hebrews 2:9, 1 Timothy 4:10.

If Jesus did not victoriously defeat sin, death and the devil, God would not have accepted him into heaven. Colossians 2:15.

Salvation has been provided for all, but not all want it. All that Jesus is and all that he has done becomes ours by simple faith.

Invalid comments, also this poster teaches that many Christ died for end up in hell !

beloved57
August 10th, 2015, 10:24 AM
js


The Lord Jesus did not bare the sins of all on the Cross but instead only those who believe:

Hm, does this mean to you that those who never become believers in Christ, that Christ did not die for them and their sins ? Yes or No ?

Robert Pate
August 10th, 2015, 07:26 PM
Invalid comments, also this poster teaches that many Christ died for end up in hell !

Christ has tasted death for every man, Hebrews 2:9.

But not every man appreciates or wants this. They are the unsaved.

beloved57
August 10th, 2015, 10:49 PM
Christ has tasted death for every man, Hebrews 2:9.

But not every man appreciates or wants this. They are the unsaved.

Invalid comment ! Those Christ died for are reconciled to God by His Death and saved by His life! Rom 5:10!

They also by His Death are sanctified once and for all Hebrew 10:10 !

Bright Raven
August 10th, 2015, 10:52 PM
Invalid comment ! Those Christ died for are reconciled to God by His Death and saved by His life! Rom 5:10!

They also by His Death are sanctified once and for all Hebrew 10:10 !

:darwinsm: You don't have a clue as to what the atonement is.

Robert Pate
August 11th, 2015, 06:33 AM
Invalid comment ! Those Christ died for are reconciled to God by His Death and saved by His life! Rom 5:10!

They also by His Death are sanctified once and for all Hebrew 10:10 !


If God has already reconciled the world unto himself by Jesus Christ, 2 Corinthians 5:19.

Then why would anyone need to be predestinated?

Answer: They don't.

beloved57
August 11th, 2015, 06:51 AM
If God has already reconciled the world unto himself by Jesus Christ, 2 Corinthians 5:19.

Then why would anyone need to be predestinated?

Answer: They don't.
See my threads!

Caino
August 11th, 2015, 06:57 AM
Jesus laid down his life and took it up again as an act of Love to prove his authority and draw attention to his original gospel. Unfortunately the cross then became the central focus obscuring his original message in Peter and Paul's new gospel.

Robert Pate
August 11th, 2015, 07:06 AM
Jesus laid down his life and took it up again as an act of Love to prove his authority and draw attention to his original gospel. Unfortunately the cross then became the central focus obscuring his original message in Peter and Paul's new gospel.

When Jesus died on the cross the old sinful Adamic race died with him, Romans 6:6.

When Jesus arose from the dead a new humanity arose with him, 2 Corinthians 5:17.

Paul's Gospel is not new. It is the same Gospel that Peter preached on the day of Pentecost, Acts 2:41.

It is the Gospel that justifies the ungodly, Romans 4:5 and reconciles the world unto God, 2 Corinthians 5:19.

Caino
August 11th, 2015, 07:13 AM
When Jesus died on the cross the old sinful Adamic race died with him, Romans 6:6.

When Jesus arose from the dead a new humanity arose with him, 2 Corinthians 5:17.

Paul's Gospel is not new. It is the same Gospel that Peter preached on the day of Pentecost, Acts 2:41.

It is the Gospel that justifies the ungodly, Romans 4:5 and reconciles the world unto God, 2 Corinthians 5:19.

That's one theory, but the original gospel is the one the Jews would have taught if they accepted Jesus.

God is changeless, Eternal and Infinite. He has always been forgiving without primitive sacrifices and certainly without the murder of his innocent Son. But even in that sad hour, the rejection of his original gospel ministry, the Son's attitude was one of forgiveness towards the savage religious people whose father was the devil.

Atonement is a man made theory because man is to proud to admit his wrongs, ask for and receive loving forgiveness. Easier then to believe a theory as opposed to real personal transformation.

Ben Masada
August 11th, 2015, 07:30 AM
Jesus laid down his life and took it up again as an act of Love to prove his authority and draw attention to his original gospel. Unfortunately the cross then became the central focus obscuring his original message in Peter and Paul's new gospel.

Jesus did not lay his life down neither as an act of love nor willingly. If you remember his anxiety in the Gethsemane, he prayed three times asking not to have to walk the Via Dolorosa. It means that he was forced to go to the cross against his will. "Not my will be done but yours" he said. It means that he went to the cross against his will. If his intention was to draw attention to his original gospel aka Judaism, he failed because the power of Paul was superior to replace that of Jesus.

Caino
August 11th, 2015, 07:51 AM
Jesus did not lay his life down neither as an act of love nor willingly. If you remember his anxiety in the Gethsemane, he prayed three times asking not to have to walk the Via Dolorosa. It means that he was forced to go to the cross against his will. "Not my will be done but yours" he said. It means that he went to the cross against his will. If his intention was to draw attention to his original gospel aka Judaism, he failed because the power of Paul was superior to replace that of Jesus.

My gosh you poor stubborn man! Jesus wept for you! The "bitter cup" was the coming rejection of his own people and the devastation that would fall upon the Jews in the coming ages after they broke the agreement and lost the over care of the Lord God of Israel.

Hello!?!?! Ben Mazda?!?! There's a mosque built on top your temple!!!!

Earth to Ben?????

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y93/Colter/dome_zpstlkavpns.jpg (http://s3.photobucket.com/user/Colter/media/dome_zpstlkavpns.jpg.html)

Ben Masada
August 11th, 2015, 08:02 AM
1 - But I fail to see any evidence that Jesus himself believed in a blood sacrifice for sin. I use these reasons to back me up:

2 - ***He was a kosher Jew who would have been disgusted by anything--even metaphorical--that entailed eating his flesh and drinking his blood, let alone be covered in it. This is a Jewish clean/unclean thing.

3 - ***He forgave plenty of folks long before his blood was spilled on Calvary.

4 - ***He believed in a God of mercy that wanted repentance, not blood spilled on the altar.

5 - ***He attacked the temple and priesthood that favored blood on the altar.

6 - ***He once quoted Hosea by asserting God "desires mercy, not sacrifice."

7 - ***He never said he was going to die for saving humankind's sins. Only others after his death said that. In fact, the complete Christian theology of atonement was made 900 years after the crucifixion.

8 - ***And the Lord's prayer counsels forgiveness of self and others for sin--not a trip to the Divine Slaughterer on His own Son.

1 - And intelligently you did it. Jesus knew that Prophet Jeremiah had declared that HaShem never commanded that animal sacrifices be part of the religion of Israel. (Jer. 7:22)

2 - I agree with you.

3 - Yes, he did because he knew they did not know what they were talking about.

4 - Hence, prophet Isaiah said that, to set things right with God so that our sins, as scarlet red become as white as snow, the only way was through repentance and obedience to God's Law. (Isa. 1:18,19)

5 - Perhaps, he protested but... to attack would be a little out of place. Jesus was a Jewish authority too.

6 - Yes, Hosea 6:6. He probably had in mind Jer. 7:22.

7 - Now, you have spoken according to the Faith of Jesus which was Judaism. When can I pay the homage, "welcome home?"

8 - Wow! What's taking you so long to mention the magic word?

Ben Masada
August 11th, 2015, 08:56 AM
1 - My gosh you poor stubborn man! Jesus wept for you!
2 - The "bitter cup" was the coming rejection of his own people and the devastation that would fall upon the Jews in the coming ages after they broke the agreement and lost the over care of the Lord God of Israel.

3 - Hello!?!?! Ben Mazda?!?! There's a mosque built on top your temple!!!!

4 - Earth to Ben?????

1 - My gosh you poor faith-walker and disingenuous fella! Remember that Paul gave you the wrong advice when he told you to walk by faith and not by sight. (II Cor. 5:7) By sight means to walk with understanding while it is only obvious that to walk by faith, one walks in the dark, without understanding. Open your eyes and see that Jesus cried for having become a victim of the law of cause and effect. (Luke 19:37-40)

2 - The bitter cup Jesus prayed three times asking God not to drink, was the advice he did not take from his friends the Pharisees to stop his disciples and escape arrest, and what did he do? He discarded it, and all for a few minutes of illusion as a result of the joy to be acclaimed king of the Jews in a parade in Jerusalem. (Luke 19:37-40)

3 - I know. I go there quite often to see that abomination of desolation. But it will not stay there forever. Soon enough it will be removed and our Temple be rebuilt on the site. The reason why it is taking so long is that we are all between "yes" and "no" for the return of the sacrifices. I am on the "no" side, according to Jer.7:22.

4 - Earth to both, Caino too!

Jerry Shugart
August 11th, 2015, 09:01 AM
The Bible plainly teaches that Jesus died for the sins of the whole world,

This is the only verse which says anything about the Lord Jesus being the atoning sacrifice for the sins of everyone:


"He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world" (1 Jn.2:2).

At 1 John 2:2 the Apostle John is making reference to the goat described as being the "sin offering" on the day of atonement (Lev.16:9), and this goat was in regard to "God's requirements." Ada R. Habershon writes:


"On the Day of Atonement there were 'two goats': the one, God's lot which was killed, the blood being taken inside the vail ; and the other, the scape-goat that bore away the iniquity of Israel to the land not inhabited--the first speaking to us of God's requirements, the second of man's need" [emphasis added] (Habershon, Study of the Types [Grand Rapids, MI: Kregel Publications, 1993], p.22).

Once the goat was sacrificed to fulfill God's requirement and to satisfy the Lord the sins of no one was atoned for until, by faith, the priest took the blood of that sacrifice and sprinkled it upon the mercy seat.

Of course on the Day of Atonement the ceremony was strictly in regard to the nation of Israel. John, at 1 John 2:2, takes the imagery of the day of atonement and expands it to the whole world.

However, the death by itself benefited no one until "faith" entered the picture. Here is the way that atonement works:

The sentence upon sin is death: "For the wages of sin is death" (Ro. 6: 23). Therefore, when a man sins the sentence upon him is death. If he is ever to be justified in the sight of God it must be by the penalty being paid. He must be justified by death, "justified by blood" (Ro. 5: 9).

The only way that he can be "justified by blood" is to be identified with the death of the Lord Jesus:


"Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death" (Ro.6:3-4).

Only believers are baptized into Jesus Christ and so it is only believers whose sins are placed on the Lord Jesus and it is only those sins which are expiated at the Cross.

If your ideas are right then there would be no reason for anyone to be baptized into Christ so that his death would be the Lord Jesus' death.

Robert Pate
August 11th, 2015, 09:30 AM
That's one theory, but the original gospel is the one the Jews would have taught if they accepted Jesus.

God is changeless, Eternal and Infinite. He has always been forgiving without primitive sacrifices and certainly without the murder of his innocent Son. But even in that sad hour, the rejection of his original gospel ministry, the Son's attitude was one of forgiveness towards the savage religious people whose father was the devil.

Atonement is a man made theory because man is to proud to admit his wrongs, ask for and receive loving forgiveness. Easier then to believe a theory as opposed to real personal transformation.


I now know why you don't quote scriptures.

You apparently do not believe what the bible says.

We know nothing outside of the scriptures. The apostles are the writers of the Bible and the authority, 2 Timothy 3:16.

To deny what they said is to deny the truth.

Robert Pate
August 11th, 2015, 09:45 AM
This is the only verse which says anything about the Lord Jesus being the atoning sacrifice for the sins of everyone:


"He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world" (1 Jn.2:2).

At 1 John 2:2 the Apostle John is making reference to the goat described as being the "sin offering" on the day of atonement (Lev.16:9), and this goat was in regard to "God's requirements." Ada R. Habershon writes:


"On the Day of Atonement there were 'two goats': the one, God's lot which was killed, the blood being taken inside the vail ; and the other, the scape-goat that bore away the iniquity of Israel to the land not inhabited--the first speaking to us of God's requirements, the second of man's need" [emphasis added] (Habershon, Study of the Types [Grand Rapids, MI: Kregel Publications, 1993], p.22).

Once the goat was sacrificed to fulfill God's requirement and to satisfy the Lord the sins of no one was atoned for until, by faith, the priest took the blood of that sacrifice and sprinkled it upon the mercy seat.

Of course on the Day of Atonement the ceremony was strictly in regard to the nation of Israel. John, at 1 John 2:2, takes the imagery of the day of atonement and expands it to the whole world.

However, the death by itself benefited no one until "faith" entered the picture. Here is the way that atonement works:

The sentence upon sin is death: "For the wages of sin is death" (Ro. 6: 23). Therefore, when a man sins the sentence upon him is death. If he is ever to be justified in the sight of God it must be by the penalty being paid. He must be justified by death, "justified by blood" (Ro. 5: 9).

The only way that he can be "justified by blood" is to be identified with the death of the Lord Jesus:


"Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death" (Ro.6:3-4).

Only believers are baptized into Jesus Christ and so it is only believers whose sins are placed on the Lord Jesus and it is only those sins which are expiated at the Cross.

If your ideas are right then there would be no reason for anyone to be baptized into Christ so that his death would be the Lord Jesus' death.


If Jesus did not die for the sins of the world, then Jesus is not the "King of Kings and the Lord of Lords" Revelation 19:16.

If Jesus did not atone for the sins of the whole world, then Jesus is a fraud and should be removed from his position at the right hand of God, Hebrews 1:3.

If Jesus did not atone for the sins of the world, then Jesus is still in Josephs new tomb and we are all still in our sins.

If Jesus did not atone for the sins of the world, then the Bible is a lie, Colossians 2:15.

Caino
August 11th, 2015, 09:49 AM
1 - My gosh you poor faith-walker and disingenuous fella! Remember that Paul gave you the wrong advice when he told you to walk by faith and not by sight. (II Cor. 5:7) By sight means to walk with understanding while it is only obvious that to walk by faith, one walks in the dark, without understanding. Open your eyes and see that Jesus cried for having become a victim of the law of cause and effect. (Luke 19:37-40)

2 - The bitter cup Jesus prayed three times asking God not to drink, was the advice he did not take from his friends the Pharisees to stop his disciples and escape arrest, and what did he do? He discarded it, and all for a few minutes of illusion as a result of the joy to be acclaimed king of the Jews in a parade in Jerusalem. (Luke 19:37-40)

3 - I know. I go there quite often to see that abomination of desolation. But it will not stay there forever. Soon enough it will be removed and our Temple be rebuilt on the site. The reason why it is taking so long is that we are all between "yes" and "no" for the return of the sacrifices. I am on the "no" side, according to Jer.7:22.

4 - Earth to both, Caino too!

Deuteronomy 28 speaks to what has actually happened.

Jeremiah 26





Warning to the Cities of Judah


…4"And you will say to them, 'Thus says the LORD, "If you will not listen to Me, to walk in My law which I have set before you, 5to listen to the words of My servants the prophets, whom I have been sending to you again and again, but you have not listened; 6then I will make this house like Shiloh, and this city I will make a curse to all the nations of the earth."'"

aikido7
August 11th, 2015, 01:19 PM
Jesus was a Jew who followed the ancient tradition of "mercy, not sacrifice." The prayers he taught to his disciples specifically says that we should come before God the merciful with repentance and a contrite heart to work out our human foibles with our brothers and sisters.

I have said this before: the expression of the complete theology of blood atonement was worked out by Anselm of Canterbury around the year 900.
And Jesus saved many long before he turned his head to that final journey to Jerusalem and Calvary.

In fact, Jesus' message was to the House of Israel, not to us Gentiles. It took Paul's mission "to the nations" to remedy that oversight.

Jesus did not care much for Gentiles and called us "dogs" and mocked their praying style.

It is indeed ironic that he has become an idol to be worshiped by Gentiles who have defined him as a blood sacrifice for humankind's sin--something Jesus never envisioned and would be disgusted by the whole idea.

aikido7
August 11th, 2015, 01:22 PM
If Jesus did not die for the sins of the world, then Jesus is not the "King of Kings and the Lord of Lords" Revelation 19:16.

If Jesus did not atone for the sins of the whole world, then Jesus is a fraud and should be removed from his position at the right hand of God, Hebrews 1:3.

If Jesus did not atone for the sins of the world, then Jesus is still in Josephs new tomb and we are all still in our sins.

If Jesus did not atone for the sins of the world, then the Bible is a lie, Colossians 2:15.Rather than cite words and opinions and theologies ABOUT Jesus, find the words OF Jesus.

You will find a very different framework for personal belief.

Jesus did not intend to die for the sins of humankind. He most certainly knew his mission would not end well--because of what happened to his mentor John the Baptizer--but it took the later Christians to put the sacrificial metaphor onto the crucifixion.

Remember, the gospel accounts were written after Jesus' death--at least the consensus of historians has found.

Robert Pate
August 12th, 2015, 05:42 AM
Rather than cite words and opinions and theologies ABOUT Jesus, find the words OF Jesus.

You will find a very different framework for personal belief.

Jesus did not intend to die for the sins of humankind. He most certainly knew his mission would not end well--because of what happened to his mentor John the Baptizer--but it took the later Christians to put the sacrificial metaphor onto the crucifixion.

Remember, the gospel accounts were written after Jesus' death--at least the consensus of historians has found.


You never cite any scripture.

Where do you get your ideas from? You are not getting them from the Bible.

Jesus mission did end well. He was accepted into heaven and was made both Lord and Christ, Acts 2:36.

You sound more like an unbeliever than a believer.

Ben Masada
August 12th, 2015, 06:52 AM
Deuteronomy 28 speaks to what has actually happened.

Jeremiah 26 Warning to the Cities of Judah

…4"And you will say to them, 'Thus says the LORD, "If you will not listen to Me, to walk in My law which I have set before you, 5to listen to the words of My servants the prophets, whom I have been sending to you again and again, but you have not listened; 6then I will make this house like Shiloh, and this city I will make a curse to all the nations of the earth."'"


To make of this house like Shiloh is a reference to Israel aka the Ten Tribes. The difference is that Shiloh-like-Israel was forever and Jerusalem of Judah would be for 70 years. What is the point? I see no connection with my post #201.

Brother Ducky
August 13th, 2015, 09:22 PM
Do you have a concordance? Look up the word "Impute" "Imputed" "Imputeth" "Imputing".

IMPUTE: 1, To attribute (a fault, crime,etc.) to a person; charge.

God not only imputes sin, he also imputes righteousness, Romans 4:22.

In the judgment if you are not found to be "In Christ" your sins will be imputed to you and you will be condemned. That is the purpose of the judgment.

This is why the scripture says... "Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin" Romans 4:8.
Fair enough.

Habakkuk 1:11
11 Then shall his mind change, and he shall pass over, and offend, imputing this his power unto his god.
2 Corinthians 5:19
19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
Leviticus 7:18
18 And if any of the flesh of the sacrifice of his peace offerings be eaten at all on the third day, it shall not be accepted, neither shall it be imputed unto him that offereth it: it shall be an abomination, and the soul that eateth of it shall bear his iniquity.
Leviticus 17:4
4 And bringeth it not unto the door of the tabernacle of the congregation, to offer an offering unto the Lord before the tabernacle of the Lord; blood shall be imputed unto that man; he hath shed blood; and that man shall be cut off from among his people:
Romans 4:11
11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also:
Romans 4:22
22 And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness.
Romans 4:23
23 Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him;
Romans 4:24
24 But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;
Romans 5:13
13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
James 2:23
23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

I do not see any reference to sin[s] being imputed back to anyone. If we use your standard of it does not count if it is only mentioned four times in Scripture, it would appear that your "imputed back" theology is just man-made drivel, totally unsupported by Scripture.

aikido7
August 14th, 2015, 12:40 AM
You never cite any scripture.

Where do you get your ideas from? You are not getting them from the Bible.You read my posts with inattention and to confirm your own prejudices.


Jesus mission did end well. Messiahs were NOT supposed to die. So his followers turned the scandal into victory.


He was accepted into heaven and was made both Lord and Christ, Acts 2:36.The Book of Acts is not completely historical.


You sound more like an unbeliever than a believer.I'm sorry you feel that way, but I can't blame you for your opinion. History DOES inform faith and Christianity, like Islam, needs to develop a new theology more in line with the interconnected global existence we all live in today. Repeating ancient dogmatic formulations just isn't going to do it any more.

Robert Pate
August 14th, 2015, 05:43 AM
You read my posts with inattention and to confirm your own prejudices.

Messiahs were NOT supposed to die. So his followers turned the scandal into victory.

The Book of Acts is not completely historical.

I'm sorry you feel that way, but I can't blame you for your opinion. History DOES inform faith and Christianity, like Islam, needs to develop a new theology more in line with the interconnected global existence we all live in today. Repeating ancient dogmatic formulations just isn't going to do it any more.

You need to change the description on your mast head from Christian to unbeliever.