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Jerry Shugart
July 30th, 2015, 10:02 AM
Paul Sadler, perhaps the top spokesmen in the Neo-MAD community as well as the president of the Berean Bible Society, teaches that under the gospel of the kingdom works were required for salvation:


"We should add that the gospel of the circumcision and the gospel of the kingdom are inseparably bound together. Both are based upon a 'performance system. 'It is this program and message that James was laboring under when he wrote his epistle...How often James must have heard one of his countrymen say, 'I believe in God.' But James observed that there were no fruits in his life that substantiated his claim, which was essential under the gospel of the circumcision" [emphasis added] (Sadler, "Studies in the Epistle of James," The Berean Searchlight, January, 2006, p.8-9).

Sadler continues, writing that "According to James, Abraham served as a 'pattern' to the circumcision that faith and works were 'required' for salvation under their program" [emphasis added] (Ibid., p.10).

Of course Sadler said nothing about this verse from the pen of James which demonstrates that those who received his epistle were born of God by the "word of truth":


"He chose to give us birth through the word of truth, that we might be a kind of firstfruits of all he created" (Jas.1:18).

Stadler also failed to mention this verse which teaches the exact same thing as James:


"Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God...And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you" (1 Pet.1:23,25).

Sadler also gave no reason why we shouldn't believe what is written here, words that prove that only faith is necessary for salvation:


"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life" (Jn.3:16).

Now let's see if any of those in the Neo-Mad camp will address any of these three verses which I quoted.

rainee
July 30th, 2015, 10:33 AM
Hi Jerry,
Interesting post. Interesting way to look at things if that is how some are looking at it.

Some Early Gentile Christians went to great lengths to baptize. They baptized themselves, their babies, and then also themselves again for those they loved who died before those could be baptized.

A lot of people call that a work, right?
But what it was really - was a complete belief in what they could understand the NT was saying.
They believed.
Today we are not so believing.

But I do not know if today's reason shows those of the past as worse than we are or the other way around...

Paul is full of instruction, but he does try to get Believers grounded in Christ. He tells them about grace. But aside from that he totally bosses them around!

Ask these today why the ones before them were chosen and they may come out with some weird stuff, yes?
Because how can anyone today understand grace for what it really is? Can't we say today God's good pleasure is probably related to unmerited choosing?

Robert Pate
July 30th, 2015, 10:47 AM
Paul Sadler, perhaps the top spokesmen in the Neo-MAD community as well as the president of the Berean Bible Society, teaches that under the gospel of the kingdom works were required for salvation:


"We should add that the gospel of the circumcision and the gospel of the kingdom are inseparably bound together. Both are based upon a 'performance system. 'It is this program and message that James was laboring under when he wrote his epistle...How often James must have heard one of his countrymen say, 'I believe in God.' But James observed that there were no fruits in his life that substantiated his claim, which was essential under the gospel of the circumcision" [emphasis added] (Sadler, "Studies in the Epistle of James," The Berean Searchlight, January, 2006, p.8-9).

Sadler continues, writing that "According to James, Abraham served as a 'pattern' to the circumcision that faith and works were 'required' for salvation under their program" [emphasis added] (Ibid., p.10).

Of course Sadler said nothing about this verse from the pen of James which demonstrates that those who received his epistle were born of God by the "word of truth":


"He chose to give us birth through the word of truth, that we might be a kind of firstfruits of all he created" (Jas.1:18).

Stadler also failed to mention this verse which teaches the exact same thing as James:


"Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God...And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you" (1 Pet.1:23,25).

Sadler also gave no reason why we shouldn't believe what is written here, words that prove that only faith is necessary for salvation:


"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life" (Jn.3:16).

Now let's see if any of those in the Neo-Mad camp will address any of these three verses which I quoted.


The book of James is one of the first books that was written in the New Testament.

Many had a problem with Paul's message that we are justified by faith without the works of the law, Romans 4:2. James was one of them.

James sent men to spy on Peter and Barnabas to see if they were eating with Gentiles. The law prohibits Jews from eating with Gentiles, Galatians 2:11, 12, 13, 14.

Paul had to explain to them that justification was not by the law, Galatians 2:15, 16, 17, 18.

And then in Acts 15:1, 2. It appears that James who was the head of the church in Jerusalem, wanted to circumcise some Gentile believers that Paul wanted to introduce to the church there.

I am sure that at a later date James came into a better understanding of the Gospel and justification by faith without the works of the law.

rainee
July 30th, 2015, 11:09 AM
The book of James is one of the first books that was written in the New Testament.

Many had a problem with Paul's message that we are justified by faith without the works of the law, Romans 4:2. James was one of them.

James sent men to spy on Peter and Barnabas to see if they were eating with Gentiles. The law prohibits Jews from eating with Gentiles, Galatians 2:11, 12, 13, 14.

Paul had to explain to them that justification was not by the law, Galatians 2:15, 16, 17, 18.

And then in Acts 15:1, 2. It appears that James who was the head of the church in Jerusalem, wanted to circumcise some Gentile believers that Paul wanted to introduce to the church there.

I am sure that at a later date James came into a better understanding of the Gospel and justification by faith without the works of the law.

Hello my friend Robert,
How are you?
I tried to remind Interplanner there is what we think and what we know -and these two are not the same. Robert - surely most everything above that you put is what you think, right? We cannot know because unless we are told or we were there then certain things can't be known. But we certainly do think certain things, right?

Jerry Shugart
July 30th, 2015, 11:15 AM
I am sure that at a later date James came into a better understanding of the Gospel and justification by faith without the works of the law.

So do believe that these words written by James speak of justification by faith apart from the law?:


"He chose to give us birth through the word of truth, that we might be a kind of firstfruits of all he created" (Jas.1:18).

Robert Pate
July 30th, 2015, 11:45 AM
So do believe that these words written by James speak of justification by faith apart from the law?:


"He chose to give us birth through the word of truth, that we might be a kind of firstfruits of all he created" (Jas.1:18).


I am not sure what James meant. James appears to introduce works into justification, James 2:14.

We are born again by hearing and believing the Gospel. The "Word of truth" is the Gospel, 1 Peter 1:23.

The word "Firstfruits" is also found in other parts of the New Testament. I believe that it means that we who are Christians are the first of God's new humanity, 2 Corinthians 5:17.

Robert Pate
July 30th, 2015, 11:49 AM
Hello my friend Robert,
How are you?
I tried to remind Interplanner there is what we think and what we know -and these two are not the same. Robert - surely most everything above that you put is what you think, right? We cannot know because unless we are told or we were there then certain things can't be known. But we certainly do think certain things, right?


The reason that God gave us the Bible is so that we can know that what we think is correct if it is according to the scriptures.

Jerry Shugart
July 30th, 2015, 12:47 PM
I am not sure what James meant. James appears to introduce works into justification, James 2:14..

I can only conclude that at 1:18 James was teaching that a person is born of God by faith only. There is no mention of works there.

In the second chapter James was obviously talking about what one person can know about another person's faith:


"Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works" (Jas.2:18).

So when James says that faith without works is dead he was saying that if a man does not exhibit works before men then as far as those men can see his faith is nonexistent or dead.

Sir Robert Anderson wrote the following:


"Paul's Epistle (Romans) unfolds the mind and purposes of God, revealing His righteousness and wrath. The Epistle of James addresses men upon their own ground. The one deals with justification as between the sinner and God, the other as between man and man. In the one, therefore, the word is, 'To him that worketh not, but believeth'. In the other it is, 'What is the profit if a man say he hath faith, and have not works?' Not 'If a man have faith', but 'If a man say he hath faith' proving that, in the case supposed, the individual is not dealing with God, but arguing the matter with his brethren. God, who searches the heart, does not need to judge by works, which are but the outward manifestation of faith within; but man can judge only by appearances...He (Abraham) was justified by faith when judged by God, for God knows the heart. He was justified by works when judged by his fellow men, for man can only read the life " [emphasis added] (Anderson, The Gospel and Its Ministry, [Kregel Publications, 1978], pp.160-161).

Robert Pate
July 30th, 2015, 02:43 PM
I can only conclude that at 1:18 James was teaching that a person is born of God by faith only. There is no mention of works there.

In the second chapter James was obviously talking about what one person can know about another person's faith:


"Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works" (Jas.2:18).

So when James says that faith without works is dead he was saying that if a man does not exhibit works before men then as far as those men can see his faith is nonexistent or dead.

Sir Robert Anderson wrote the following:


"Paul's Epistle (Romans) unfolds the mind and purposes of God, revealing His righteousness and wrath. The Epistle of James addresses men upon their own ground. The one deals with justification as between the sinner and God, the other as between man and man. In the one, therefore, the word is, 'To him that worketh not, but believeth'. In the other it is, 'What is the profit if a man say he hath faith, and have not works?' Not 'If a man have faith', but 'If a man say he hath faith' proving that, in the case supposed, the individual is not dealing with God, but arguing the matter with his brethren. God, who searches the heart, does not need to judge by works, which are but the outward manifestation of faith within; but man can judge only by appearances...He (Abraham) was justified by faith when judged by God, for God knows the heart. He was justified by works when judged by his fellow men, for man can only read the life " [emphasis added] (Anderson, The Gospel and Its Ministry, [Kregel Publications, 1978], pp.160-161).


Works are not an indication of faith. There are multitudes that are trying to be justified by their works, mainly Catholics.

All that have come to Christ as repentant sinners have been blessed with the Holy Spirit. One of the works of the Spirit is to make us witnesses for Christ and his Gospel.

I personally believe that Christian works are the result of the Holy Spirit.

Cons&Spires
July 30th, 2015, 02:55 PM
A person will produce works if they have faith, it is a practical truth in anything, not just with one's relationship with God.

The interpretation between 'faith alone' and 'faith and works' is often a very misunderstood one, as faith and works are in both. Faith alone proposes that a person does not have to be subject to the Pope. It is also intended to uphold predestination.

The oppositions have very little to do, exclusively, with faith or works. It's part of a bigger paradigm of the ordinance within Protestantism and Catholicism altogether.

Robert Pate
July 30th, 2015, 03:04 PM
A person will produce works if they have faith, it is a practical truth in anything, not just with one's relationship with God.

The interpretation between 'faith alone' and 'faith and works' is often a very misunderstood one, as faith and works are in both. Faith alone proposes that a person does not have to be subject to the Pope. It is also intended to uphold predestination.

The oppositions have very little to do, exclusively, with faith or works. It's part of a bigger paradigm of the ordinance within Protestantism and Catholicism altogether.


Saving faith is always faith in Christ and his Gospel.

Religious faith is faith in ones ability to please God by what they do.

One leads to eternal life. The other leads to eternal damnation.

Jerry Shugart
July 30th, 2015, 06:41 PM
James appears to introduce works into justification, James 2:14..

Do you think that James was in the will of God when, according to you, he introduced works into justification?

Cons&Spires
July 30th, 2015, 07:28 PM
Saving faith is always faith in Christ and his Gospel.

Religious faith is faith in ones ability to please God by what they do.

One leads to eternal life. The other leads to eternal damnation.

And what does the Bible propose on how to please God?

We simply have good will to our neighbors.. much of whom are going to Hell as far as what I can deduce from the scriptures.

Which makes our works hardly meaningful, it's in our own willingness- that's what God seeks.

Jerry Shugart
July 30th, 2015, 08:16 PM
And what does the Bible propose on how to please God?


"Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God? Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent" (Jn.6:28-29).

Danoh
July 30th, 2015, 09:50 PM
Do you think that James was in the will of God when, according to you, he introduced works into justification?

And according to you and Anderson [and whatever other external writer you share your same "own notions" reasoning approach with, when it suits your various assertions] James did not.

Bad enough you are ever on this trip to prove everyone wrong and you alone as right; do you even know how to properly exegete any text?

Cons&Spires
July 30th, 2015, 09:55 PM
"Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God? Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent" (Jn.6:28-29).

I'm pretty sure, though not entirely certain, that God also takes delight in us being compassionate to each other.
It is what Jesus did- he did not turn away anyone who sought him.

Danoh
July 30th, 2015, 09:55 PM
"Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God? Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent" (Jn.6:28-29).

Talk about twisting a text out of its scope and context.

They wanted to be able to "do the works" - the miracles - He was able to - God's miraculous "works."

He basically rebuked their not believing Who the Father's works through the Son proved the Son to be, that they might believe the Father as to Who the Son was: The Christ.

Danoh
July 30th, 2015, 10:05 PM
I'm pretty sure, though not entirely certain, that God also takes delight in us being compassionate to each other.
It is what Jesus did- he did not turn away anyone who sought him.

He was also very intolerant of those who played the following game - Luke 7:

31. And the Lord said, Whereunto then shall I liken the men of this generation? and to what are they like?
32. They are like unto children sitting in the marketplace, and calling one to another, and saying, We have piped unto you, and ye have not danced; we have mourned to you, and ye have not wept.
33. For John the Baptist came neither eating bread nor drinking wine; and ye say, He hath a devil.
34. The Son of man is come eating and drinking; and ye say, Behold a gluttonous man, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners!
35. But wisdom is justified of all her children.

And that is what Jerry's Neo-Mid-Acts nonsense of an accusation is - his piping, and piping, and piping never ever satisfied with any answer other than that he alone is right, and, while we're at it, could we post why he is.

Fact is, he is the Neo-Mid-Acts-ist, as his supposed Mid-Acts views are some fifty plus years way behind in many further refinements in understanding.

But throw stones the narcissist that he is must.

heir
July 30th, 2015, 10:50 PM
"Works Required for Salvation Under the Gospel of the Kingdom?"


Repent, and believe the gospel (Mark 1:4 KJV) by baptism of repentance for the remission of sins (Mark 1:4 KJV, Mark 16:16 KJV, Acts 2:38 KJV), keep the commandments (John 14:15 KJV, Matthew 23:1-3 KJV, John 15:5-10 KJV), sell out (Luke 12:33 KJV, 18:22 KJV), endure to the end to be saved (Matthew 10:22 KJV)

Jerry Shugart
July 31st, 2015, 07:40 AM
"Works Required for Salvation Under the Gospel of the Kingdom?"

Repent, and believe the gospel (Mark 1:4 KJV) by baptism of repentance for the remission of sins (Mark 1:4 KJV, Mark 16:16 KJV, Acts 2:38 KJV), keep the commandments (John 14:15 KJV, Matthew 23:1-3 KJV, John 15:5-10 KJV), sell out (Luke 12:33 KJV, 18:22 KJV), endure to the end to be saved (Matthew 10:22 KJV)

Before a person could be baptized with water that person must first believe, as witnessed by the following exchange between Philip and the eunuch:


"And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized? And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God" (Acts 8:36-37).

And by the time when anyone believes he is already saved:


"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life" (Jn.3:16).

Of course you in the Neo-MAD camp do not believe what is said there. And besides that, none of you know what the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins was about.

Jerry Shugart
July 31st, 2015, 08:10 AM
I'm pretty sure, though not entirely certain, that God also takes delight in us being compassionate to each other.
It is what Jesus did- he did not turn away anyone who sought him.

Of course you are right.

Jerry Shugart
July 31st, 2015, 08:24 AM
"Works Required for Salvation Under the Gospel of the Kingdom?"

Those in the Neo-MAD camp obviously do not understand the meaning of "grace" because they say that the Jews who lived under the Law could not be saved apart from works.

But this is what Paul says:


"Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all" (Ro.4:16).

According to those in the Neo-MAD community "grace" and "works" are not mutually exclusive. Of course they just turn their ears from the truth because Paul teaches that they are mutually exclusive:


"Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt" (Ro.4:4).

How is it possible that they have ever believed the gospel of the grace of God since they are clueless about the meaning of "grace" as defined by Paul?

Robert Pate
July 31st, 2015, 08:28 AM
And what does the Bible propose on how to please God?

We simply have good will to our neighbors.. much of whom are going to Hell as far as what I can deduce from the scriptures.

Which makes our works hardly meaningful, it's in our own willingness- that's what God seeks.

The only thing that pleases God is faith in his Son Jesus Christ.

Faith is the only thing that God will honor, not works.

Danoh
July 31st, 2015, 08:36 AM
Before a person could be baptized with water that person must first believe, as witnessed by the following exchange between Philip and the eunuch:


"And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized? And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God" (Acts 8:36-37).

And by the time when anyone believes he is already saved:


"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life" (Jn.3:16).

Of course you in the Neo-MAD camp do not believe what is said there. And besides that, none of you know what the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins was about.

Jerry's profound narcissism has him twisting the Scripture to his own self [and that of other's] destruction.

And though he asserts he is Mid Acts, he is actually some fifty years behind later, further refinements in understanding.

What you see in him is a case of the actual Neo-Mid Acts-ist in all this; attempting to shame others into his errors.

We differ with him on some issues.

But he turns that into strong disagreement against others.

Why? Because he cares?

No. Because he is a hypocrite through and through in his narcissism.

The narcissist is never content with differences.

Never.

To such an individual, difference is evidence of strong disagreement against his puffed up self-image his profoundly low sense of self-worth has resulted in because he has never dealt with its issue by the only means to - at the Cross alone...

Not by ever pitting oneself against one's own in some sort of a never ending self-righteous hypocrisy.

Truth is, Jerry's battle is not with his own, rather; with himself in his failure to take this issue of his to the Cross.

As a result, he ever lives dead to the Spirit's mind; in his ever pressing sense of need to be proven the only one who knows what's what and this will simply not allow him to allow others to differ.

Jerry Shugart
July 31st, 2015, 09:00 AM
James appears to introduce works into justification, James 2:14..

Do you think that James was in the will of God when, according to you, he introduced works into justification?

Danoh
July 31st, 2015, 09:33 AM
Do you think that James was in the will of God when, according to you, he introduced works into justification?

Your answer, should you agree with him, Robert, will be followed with a request from him that you lay out exactly why you agree that he is right.

User Name
July 31st, 2015, 09:52 AM
James appears to introduce works into justification, James 2:14.

How does James 2:14 differ from 1 Timothy 5:8, Titus 1:16, or 1 Timothy 6:18-19?

Jerry Shugart
July 31st, 2015, 10:08 AM
I wish that there is at least one person from the Neo-MAD community who would define what being justified by "grace" really means.

They continue to insist that the Jews who lived under the law could not be saved apart from works. And of course they have yet to even attempt to explain what is said about David, a man who lived under the Law:


"Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works, Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered. Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin" (Ro.4:4-8).

Instead of actually addressing these words of the Apostle Paul some of those from the Neo-MAD camp on this thread think that if they continue to attack me personally then the words of Paul which I quoted will go away.

But I got bad news from them. The facts which prove that those who lived under the Law were saved by "grace" through faith will not go away:


"Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all" (Ro.4:16).

Jerry Shugart
July 31st, 2015, 03:48 PM
Paul Sadler, perhaps the top spokesmen in the Neo-MAD community as well as the president of the Berean Bible Society, teaches that under the gospel of the kingdom works were required for salvation:


"We should add that the gospel of the circumcision and the gospel of the kingdom are inseparably bound together. Both are based upon a 'performance system. 'It is this program and message that James was laboring under when he wrote his epistle...How often James must have heard one of his countrymen say, 'I believe in God.' But James observed that there were no fruits in his life that substantiated his claim, which was essential under the gospel of the circumcision" [emphasis added] (Sadler, "Studies in the Epistle of James," The Berean Searchlight, January, 2006, p.8-9).

Sadler continues, writing that "According to James, Abraham served as a 'pattern' to the circumcision that faith and works were 'required' for salvation under their program" [emphasis added] (Ibid., p.10).

Sadler gave no reason why we shouldn't believe what is written here, words that prove that only faith is necessary for salvation:


"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life" (Jn.3:16).

Now let's see if any of those in the Neo-Mad camp will address this verse.