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Robert Pate
July 30th, 2015, 04:46 AM
Calvinism is in direct conflict with the Bible the Gospel and justification by faith.

There are just to many scriptures that I would have to reject to become a Calvinist. Here are some of them.

"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believes in him should not perish, but have everlasting life" John 3:16.

I believe that John was closer to Jesus than some of the other apostles and that John would not twist the words of Jesus in order to deceive us. And then Paul confirms what John says when he wrote,

"Whosoever that shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved" Romans 10:13.

When it comes to the Gospel and justification by faith there is no conflict in the scriptures. It is only when we start to deny that Jesus is the savior of the world that the trouble starts. You cannot be a Calvinist and believe that Jesus has atoned for the sins of the whole world.

Are we going to believe John or are we going to believe Calvinism? John wrote, "And he is a propitiation for our sins: and not ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world" 1 John 2:2.

And then John wrote again, "And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the savior of the world" 1 John 4:14.

If Jesus did not atone for the sins of the whole world, then there is no hope for anyone. If Jesus did not defeat sin, death and the devil, then all is lost. The reason that Jesus is in heaven at the right hand of God is because Jesus has victoriously defeated sin, death and the devil.

The scripture confirms this, "And having spoiles principalities and powers, he made a show of them openly, triumphing over them in it" Colossians 2:15.

If Jesus did not defeat sin, death and the devil, then Jesus is not Lord. If Jesus is not Lord then he should be removed from his position at the right hand of God in heaven. If Jesus did not defeat sin, death and the devil and is not the savior of the whole world then we are all still in our sins.

There are some things in the Bible that are very important. One of them is that Jesus is the savior of the whole world and has defeated sin, death and the devil. If you don't believe that, then you have a savior that is a failure. You can't be saved by a Jesus that is a failure.

Calvinist want us to deny that Jesus is the savior of the world. To deny that Jesus is the savior of the world is to deny the Gospel and justification by faith. This is exactly what the devil wants you to do.

heir
July 30th, 2015, 06:06 AM
Why I Don't Believe in Calvinism or Predestination Instead of stating the above (title or not), you should clarify that it's not predestination according to the Bible that you don't believe in, but the doctrine of predestination in Calvinism or according to Calvinism because to say that you don't believe in predestination puts you at odds with the word of God as we are predestinated unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to Himself.

(see also Rom 8:28-30 KJV)

Ephesians 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:

Ephesians 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

Ephesians 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

Ephesians 1:6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

And in Whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of Him who worketh all things after the counsel of His own will:

Ephesians 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

Ephesians 1:12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.

Ephesians 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

Ephesians 1:14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

Desert Reign
July 30th, 2015, 06:24 AM
As much as I dislike Calvinism, Mr. Pate, I don't see how you can succeed unless you have an actual argument. Anyone can quote scriptures to support their position, which is why I seldom do in support of my own positions. All the scriptures you quoted, the Calvinists have an answer to. This only gets you precisely nowhere.
What you need to do is to establish a good logical or moral argument.
Like, you can argue that predestination makes God out to be wicked. Then, when they come back at you with various scriptures to support their position you reply 'I see. So you are saying that the Bible supports the idea that God is wicked?'
Then they reply, 'no of course not' and you say 'But I've just shown you that your belief makes God out to be wicked. You can then have a debate with them about whether or not their belief makes God out to be wicked. And this is likely to be a much more fruitful argument than using a sling shot to fire Bible verses at each other.

Robert Pate
July 30th, 2015, 06:24 AM
Instead of stating the above (title or not), you should clarify that it's not predestination according to the Bible that you don't believe in, but the doctrine of predestination in Calvinism or according to Calvinism because to say that you don't believe in predestination puts you at odds with the word of God as we are predestinated unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to Himself.

(see also Rom 8:28-30 KJV)

Ephesians 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:

Ephesians 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

Ephesians 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

Ephesians 1:6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

And in Whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of Him who worketh all things after the counsel of His own will:

Ephesians 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

Ephesians 1:12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.

Ephesians 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

Ephesians 1:14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.


The only one that has been predestinated is Jesus Christ. God chose all of humanity in Jesus Christ before the foundation of the world. Hebrews 9:26 also 1 Peter 1:20.

God does NOTHING outside of his Son Jesus Christ.

There is no individual election or predestination simply because God is no respector of persons, Acts 10:34.

If you want to be saved you will have to become a "Whosoever".

"Whosoever that shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved" Romans 10:13.

Robert Pate
July 30th, 2015, 06:36 AM
As much as I dislike Calvinism, Mr. Pate, I don't see how you can succeed unless you have an actual argument. Anyone can quote scriptures to support their position, which is why I seldom do in support of my own positions. All the scriptures you quoted, the Calvinists have an answer to. This only gets you precisely nowhere.
What you need to do is to establish a good logical or moral argument.
Like, you can argue that predestination makes God out to be wicked. Then, when they come back at you with various scriptures to support their position you reply 'I see. So you are saying that the Bible supports the idea that God is wicked?'
Then they reply, 'no of course not' and you say 'But I've just shown you that your belief makes God out to be wicked. You can then have a debate with them about whether or not their belief makes God out to be wicked. And this is likely to be a much more fruitful argument than using a sling shot to fire Bible verses at each other.


Calvinist cannot be corrected by scripture. They have other writings that supports their position that they believe is the final authority.

I am not a Calvinist because I believe in scripture alone, they don't.

The Calvinist answer is to discredit the Bible by adding words, deleting words and changing the meaning of words.

The only way that Calvinist can be reached is through the Gospel and justification by faith.

The key to understanding the Gospel is to believe that Jesus is the savior of the whole world.

Man.0
July 30th, 2015, 08:47 AM
Robert Pate, what would you define yourself as, in regards to the beliefs you hold?

Robert Pate
July 30th, 2015, 09:01 AM
Robert Pate, what would you define yourself as, in regards to the beliefs you hold?

A Christian.

A Bible believing, Gospel embraceing, justified by faith alone, Christian.

Man.0
July 30th, 2015, 09:12 AM
Are you really a Christian? What makes you so?

Robert Pate
July 30th, 2015, 09:34 AM
Are you really a Christian? What makes you so?


Jesus makes it so. Faith in Christ and his Gospel makes one a Christian. NOT WORKS.

"That whosoever believes in him should not perish, but have eternal life" John 3:16.

RevTestament
July 30th, 2015, 09:45 AM
The only one that has been predestinated is Jesus Christ. God chose all of humanity in Jesus Christ before the foundation of the world. Hebrews 9:26 also 1 Peter 1:20.
Christ disagrees with you. see also Jer 1:4-5.

Matthew 20:23 And he saith unto them, Ye shall drink indeed of my cup, and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with: but to sit on my right hand, and on my left, is not mine to give, but it shall be given to them for whom it is prepared of my Father.



There is no individual election or predestination simply because God is no respector of persons, Acts 10:34.
While that seems to make some sense, how come the Hebrews are called His "chosen" people. How come they were chosen out of the nations?

If you want to be saved you will have to become a "Whosoever".
"Whosoever that shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved" Romans 10:13.Let me put it this way, while I don't really believe in the "destination" of people, it does seem some are "called" or "ordained" ahead of time. An example would be the apostle Paul who although a sinner and persecutor, Jesus appeared to. Why?
The main problem I see with Calvinism is the belief that many or most are "predistinated" to sin, error, death, and hell if they are not of "the elect." This sounds kind of like JWs to me who errantly believe only 144,000 go to "heaven." It is definitely the kind of thinking which leads to such erroneous conclusions.
What is the purpose of the creation of "the wicked" if they are predestined to hell, and cannot choose to follow Christ? Esp if as you point out, God is no respecter of persons? It follows that if God is just, everyone can choose to follow Christ, and no one is predestinated to die in sin and go to "hell."
But it also seems some events are predestined - like the fall of Tyre, Babylon, etc.
With these caveats, in some ways I agree with you. :carryon:

Robert Pate
July 30th, 2015, 10:25 AM
Christ disagrees with you. see also Jer 1:4-5.

Matthew 20:23 And he saith unto them, Ye shall drink indeed of my cup, and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with: but to sit on my right hand, and on my left, is not mine to give, but it shall be given to them for whom it is prepared of my Father.


While that seems to make some sense, how come the Hebrews are called His "chosen" people. How come they were chosen out of the nations?
Let me put it this way, while I don't really believe in the "destination" of people, it does seem some are "called" or "ordained" ahead of time. An example would be the apostle Paul who although a sinner and persecutor, Jesus appeared to. Why?
The main problem I see with Calvinism is the belief that many or most are "predistinated" to sin, error, death, and hell if they are not of "the elect." This sounds kind of like JWs to me who errantly believe only 144,000 go to "heaven." It is definitely the kind of thinking which leads to such erroneous conclusions.
What is the purpose of the creation of "the wicked" if they are predestined to hell, and cannot choose to follow Christ? Esp if as you point out, God is no respecter of persons? It follows that if God is just, everyone can choose to follow Christ, and no one is predestinated to die in sin and go to "hell."
But it also seems some events are predestined - like the fall of Tyre, Babylon, etc.
With these caveats, in some ways I agree with you. :carryon:


God chose prophets, the nation of Israel, Patriarchs and apostles for the sole purpose of making known to the world the Gospel of his Son Jesus Christ. The whole Bible is about God bringing forth a nation and a people from whom the savior of the world would come.

There is no election without a purpose

The Jews are God's chosen people in the sense that it was to them that the oracles of God were given.

The belief that God predestinates some to eternal life and damns the rest to hell makes God unjust.

RevTestament
July 30th, 2015, 11:43 AM
God chose prophets, the nation of Israel, Patriarchs and apostles for the sole purpose of making known to the world the Gospel of his Son Jesus Christ. The whole Bible is about God bringing forth a nation and a people from whom the savior of the world would come.OK. I guess my question to you is how come God told Jeremiah for instance he was chosen from the womb to be a prophet to the nations if He is no respecter of persons? Is there a way to reconcile both of those statements?


There is no election without a purpose

The Jews are God's chosen people in the sense that it was to them that the oracles of God were given.Why? Why was Jesus not sent to the Gentiles?


The belief that God predestinates some to eternal life and damns the rest to hell makes God unjust.:)

Robert Pate
July 30th, 2015, 12:06 PM
OK. I guess my question to you is how come God told Jeremiah for instance he was chosen from the womb to be a prophet to the nations if He is no respecter of persons? Is there a way to reconcile both of those statements?

Why? Why was Jesus not sent to the Gentiles?

:)


Because Jeremiah was chosen from the womb to be a prophet to the nations. The answer is in the scripture.

God also chose Mary to be the mother of Jesus. Paul was also chosen to take the Gospel to the Gentiles.

There is no election without a purpose. God does not elect anyone to salvation that is not connected to the Christ event and the Gospel.

Cons&Spires
July 30th, 2015, 08:37 PM
I have a couple small issues with Calvinism, but in the general sense, TULIP is otherwise the Gospel altogether.

Hate to disappoint :wave:

moparguy
July 30th, 2015, 10:07 PM
Oh, goodie, more whack-a-mole with pate, who seems to think the commandment to not falsely represent your neighbor isn't for him.


Calvinism is in direct conflict with the Bible the Gospel and justification by faith.

There are just to many scriptures that I would have to reject to become a Calvinist. Here are some of them.

"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believes in him should not perish, but have everlasting life" John 3:16.

Now, for what Pate apparently won't do... give direct original source quotes:



That whosoever believeth on him may not perish. It is a remarkable commendation of faith, that it frees us from everlasting destruction. For he intended expressly to state that, though we appear to have been born to death, undoubted deliverance is offered to us by the faith of Christ; and, therefore, that we ought not to fear death, which otherwise hangs over us. And he has employed the universal term whosoever, both to invite all indiscriminately to partake of life, and to cut off every excuse from unbelievers.

Do I even have to tell you where this is from? Google it. I dare you.


"Whosoever that shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved" Romans 10:13.



This testimony is taken out of Joe 2:32 and is brought to prove the truth of what the apostle had just suggested, that all that call upon the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, will find him rich and plenteous in mercy, and ready to dispense his grace and salvation to them: such

shall be saved;

be they who they will, whether Jews or Gentiles; not with a temporal salvation only, but with a spiritual and eternal one; for the words of the prophet refer to Gospel times, as the context shows, and is cited and applied thereunto by the Apostle Peter, Ac 2:16-21; besides, the deliverance and salvation Joel speaks of, is of a "remnant whom the Lord shall call", Joe 2:32; and designs the remnant according to the election of grace, whether among Jews or Gentiles, whom God calls by his efficacious grace; between which call and eternal glory, there is a certain and inseparable connection.š



"And he is a propitiation for our sins: and not ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world" 1 John 2:2.



And not for ours only He added this for the sake of amplifying, in order that the faithful might be assured that the expiation made by Christ, extends to all who by faith embrace the gospel.


And then John wrote again, "And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the savior of the world" 1 John 4:14.

If Jesus did not atone for the sins of the whole world, then there is no hope for anyone. If Jesus did not defeat sin, death and the devil, then all is lost. The reason that Jesus is in heaven at the right hand of God is because Jesus has victoriously defeated sin, death and the devil.

Kindergarten english: Save means SAVE, not atone. You have to say that save doesn't mean save here because you don't allow God to define what he means by the words he uses.

I'm happy that you're (as far as I know) not a universalist; but there's no reason here for anyone to think otherwise.


Calvinist want us to deny that Jesus is the savior of the world.

Yet again, lying against your neighbor.

RevTestament
July 30th, 2015, 11:07 PM
Because Jeremiah was chosen from the womb to be a prophet to the nations. The answer is in the scripture.

That doesn't answer my question: "I guess my question to you is how come God told Jeremiah for instance he was chosen from the womb to be a prophet to the nations if He is no respecter of persons? Is there a way to reconcile both of those statements?"

How come God chose an unproven infant to be his prophet if He is no respecter of persons? Or is the infant unproven to God? Did He design some special instead?



There is no election without a purpose. God does not elect anyone to salvation that is not connected to the Christ event and the Gospel.
So then in your interpretation, those people who did not hear of Christ because they lived in 6th century Japan are damned to hell?

heir
July 30th, 2015, 11:46 PM
The only one that has been predestinated is Jesus Christ. Robert, you really need to grow up. I gave you verses that show that we are predestinated. Why you see Calvinism when you see that term, I don't know. I certainly don't. It has nothing to do with the Calvinistic hijacking of the term, but a sound, biblical teaching on our adoption and inheritance based upon God's foreknowledge.

heir
July 30th, 2015, 11:48 PM
I have a couple small issues with Calvinism, but in the general sense, TULIP is otherwise the Gospel altogether.

Hate to disappoint :wave:Show me the gospel of your salvation!

heir
July 30th, 2015, 11:50 PM
Jesus makes it so. Faith in Christ and his Gospel makes one a Christian. NOT WORKS.

"That whosoever believes in him should not perish, but have eternal life" John 3:16.
Which gospel would that be as you know there are many gospels in the Bible.

Cons&Spires
July 30th, 2015, 11:52 PM
Show me the gospel of your salvation!

Total Depravity
Unconditional Election (where my small issues are)
Limited Atonement
Irresistable Grace
Perseverance of the Saints

What's not to understand, really? It's pretty much the gospel_
I would love for you show otherwise, honestly. I see a lot of flack against Reformed theology, ironically from those divergent from Catholicism altogether. Makes no sense to me.

heir
July 30th, 2015, 11:55 PM
Total Depravity
Unconditional Election (where my small issues are)
Limited Atonement
Irresistable Grace
Perseverance of the Saints

What's not to understand, really? It's the gospel_
I would love for you show otherwise, honestly. I see a lot of flack against Reformed theology, ironically from those divergent from Catholicism altogether. Makes no sense to me.I wasn't asking for TULIP, but the gospel of YOUR salvation. Show me!

Cons&Spires
July 30th, 2015, 11:57 PM
I wasn't asking for TULIP, but the gospel of YOUR salvation. Show me!

Besides my moderation of Unconditional Election, my gospel is TULIP.

I don't know how that was lost in translation..

heir
July 30th, 2015, 11:59 PM
Besides my moderation of Unconditional Election, my gospel is TULIP.

I don't know how that was lost in translation..

TULIP didn't/doesn't save you. What is the good news by which you are saved?

Ask Mr. Religion
July 31st, 2015, 12:03 AM
Why I Don't Believe in Calvinism or Predestination

Breaking news! Who knew? :AMR:

Robert in a nutshell:

I, Robert Pate, believe all Calvinists are lost, hate religion, deny the infallibility and inerrancy of Scripture, deny the Bible is a book to live by, am within my right to question the infallibility of the book of James, Acts, and any other book that disagrees with my views, deny the notion of eternal punishment in Hell in favor of psychopannychia (soul-sleep), deny Adam's sin bears any connection to my sinful nature from birth, deny my faith came by God alone and not by any single thing related to my own abilities to come to said faith. Moreover I refuse to attend any visible vestige of the Lord's Bride for corporate worship, placing myself under its ordained leadership, nor give myself access to the ordinary means of grace by Word and Sacrament.

AMR

Cons&Spires
July 31st, 2015, 12:04 AM
TULIP didn't/doesn't save you. What is the good news by which you are saved?

:smokie: This is ridiculous.

Do you understand the doctrine of TULIP?

heir
July 31st, 2015, 12:11 AM
Besides my moderation of Unconditional Election, my gospel is TULIP.

I don't know how that was lost in translation..

TULIP didn't/doesn't save you. What is the good news by which you are saved?

Cons&Spires
July 31st, 2015, 12:17 AM
TULIP didn't/doesn't save you. What is the good news by which you are saved?

TULIP is an explanation of God's relationship to man, and how we are judged.

You're talking about 'good news' as if salvation comes without anything, including belief. Which is unorthodox, God does not leave that option. Sorry to break it to you.

Ask Mr. Religion
July 31st, 2015, 12:26 AM
Calvinist cannot be corrected by scripture. They have other writings that supports their position that they believe is the final authority.

I am not a Calvinist because I believe in scripture alone, they don't.

The Calvinist answer is to discredit the Bible by adding words, deleting words and changing the meaning of words.

Odd that you lay claim to the purity of the Bible, given your personal views about the bible.


Why do the religious always run to the book of James?

There is no Gospel in the book of James. I suppose it is because James was a Judaizer that had trouble with Paul's Gospel much like Peter, Galatians 2:11,12. The religious have the same problem as Peter and James.

I am sure that Peter and James eventually came to embrace Paul's Gospel at a later date. The book of James is very Jewish. There is nothing in the book of James about the redemptive work of Christ or the resurrection. It is a very law based book.

James had faith, but I am not sure what James had faith in, he doesn't say. If it were Christ and his Gospel he doesn't bring that out in his writtings.

The "Historical Gospel" calls all things into question, even the Bible itself.

Why should anyone expect anything different, given:

I am not in a box. I do not belong to a church nor am I affiliated with any sort of religious organization.

Pate is also double-minded. Here he has no hesitancy to declare who is a Christian and who is not. Yes, even the box of Scripture is too small for Robert for if Scripture disagrees with him, Pate will just wave it off as irrelevant. :AMR:


My posts stand for themselves. They are biblical and truthful.

I don't consider Calvinist to be Christians. Why don't you get saved and then we can discuss spiritual things if that is what you want to do?

Untill then you remain a natural man void of the Spirit of Christ.

But, when he tries his usual schtick at more moderated sites, we get this from Pate:


I don't know who is a Christian and who isn't.

In other words, Pate is not above being a liar to suit his purposes.

Pate's behavior is probably because he is holding a book in his hands that he does not see as Holy Writ and full of inaccuracies and discrepancies.

See Robert's mentor, Brinsmead, and his latest nonsense here:
http://theologyonline.com/showthread.php?120152-How-the-Gospel-Refutes-All-Religions-and-Reconciles-Us-to-God&p=4835494&viewfull=1#post4835494


The bible is not a perfect book. It was written by men.

The sole purpose of the bible is to be a witness to the work and person of Jesus Christ. If you use it for any other purpose than that you have misused it.

It was never intended to be a book to live by.


No, the bible is not a perfect work. This does not take away from it but rather enhances it. None of the men except for Christ were perfect. What makes you think that imperfect men can write a perfect book.

The bible does what it was intended to do, it reveals Christ and his gospel.

Pate confirms these low views of Scripture:

I retract nothing.

Then continues with more non-Scriptural views:


...

No one deserves to go to hell.

We are ALL sinners without works. No one can become a sinner by what they do, they are born into sin, Psalm 51:5.

It is not our fault that we are sinners. If you want to blame someone blame Adam. He is the one that brought sin upon on us, Romans 5:12...


Then there are some real howlers:

The law has been replaced by the Holy Spirit.


God has a moral obligation to offer salvation to all because all are sinners without works. It is not my fault that I am a sinner, its Adam's fault. Why should I go to hell for something that Adam brought upon me.


You are assuming that God knows everything that is happening on the earth.

Truth of the matter is that God is very absent from what is happening on the earth.


Does God know who will believe on his Son Jesus Christ?

I don't think that he does. To give life for the sole purpose of destroying it makes God unjust and unmerciful.

One of the main reasons Pate does not understand Scripture...he refuses to attend church, even declaring its members as being in a "whore church (http://theologyonline.com/showthread.php?115726-Why-do-the-Religious-Love-their-Religion&p=4589107&viewfull=1#post4589107)":

Organized religion is anti-Gospel, anti-Christ, and is under the law.

I know I attended a baptist church for years, until I discovered the Gospel.

There is no Gospel being taught today. It is all about religion, which you love.

I wouldn't attend an organized church if you paid me.

Christ church is an invisible, spiritual church that cannot be seen, but can be heard. It is talking to you now.

Yet, religion is something Pate affirms…



Christianity is a faith religion. We are called to believe things that cannot be believed by unbelievers. They are things of the Spirit that unbelievers do not have access to, 1 Corinthians 2:14. We spend a lot of time on the forum trying to convince these people that are void of the Spirit things of the Spirit.

Given Pate's confusion about the Scriptures, is there any wonder he says:


God can limit himself.

God does not see what is going on, on the earth.

God sees ALL THINGS in his Son Jesus Christ, Colossians 1:20.

Nothing will be revealed until Christ returns and then everything will be revealed.

Finally, since Pate denies imperfect men could write a perfect book, and the book (the Bible) was never intended to be a book to live by, he has little concerns about the consequences of his behavior. Pate has an "out" for everything anyway:


I have trouble with eternal punishment. I believe that the soul of the person that has rejected Christ will be destroyed in hell, but not eternally punished.

I am hoping, but don't know for sure, that in the judgment there will be another chance to accept Christ as your savior.

What ever it is, and whatever God decides, it will be right. He is the just judge of all things.


I believe that the soul will be destroyed in hell. I see little to no value in the doctrine of ECT. Why would God make someone suffer in hell for all eternity? The destruction of the soul would be eternal death and would be very painful.

Then there is Robert's psychopannychia (soul sleep):


If a persons spirit is already in heaven then why would there be a resurrection?

There is a lot of controversy concerning this.

The way I see it is, the whole person goes into the ground and the whole person is resurrected.

The Christian does not really die. He falls asleep until the resurrection.

Then there is this:

And you and you alone are responsible for your salvation.

At least Robert is bold enough to declare in public and unequivocally exactly what the anti-Calvinist really believes...and prays thusly here (http://theologyonline.com/showthread.php?119898-Honor-God-s-Son-or-Perish&p=4845747&viewfull=1#post4845747).

When a person willfully refuses to submit themselves to the local authority of a church, denies the essentials of the Bible, and lies when it suits him, why would anyone ever consider taking him seriously? Pate knows this, which is why he refuses to stand still long enough to defend his bizarre views. Rather he just runs along and starts yet another thread. A good portion have been deleted, but Robert is not deterred. Sigh.

AMR

heir
July 31st, 2015, 12:35 AM
TULIP didn't/doesn't save you. What is the good news by which you are saved?*crickets*

Cons&Spires
July 31st, 2015, 12:41 AM
^This is a big part of the reason I considered Reformed doctrine in the first place. Everything else seems to be filled with absurdity.

heir
July 31st, 2015, 12:43 AM
^This is a big part of the reason I considered Reformed doctrine in the first place.Why can't you answer such a simple question as, what is the gospel of your salvation? Surely, if you're saved, you know the gospel by which you are saved! What is it?

Cons&Spires
July 31st, 2015, 12:47 AM
Why can't you answer such a simple question as, what is the gospel of your salvation? Surely, if you're saved, you know the gospel by which you are saved! What is it?

TULIP

:rotfl:

Are you drunk?

Robert Pate
July 31st, 2015, 07:35 AM
That doesn't answer my question: "I guess my question to you is how come God told Jeremiah for instance he was chosen from the womb to be a prophet to the nations if He is no respecter of persons? Is there a way to reconcile both of those statements?"

How come God chose an unproven infant to be his prophet if He is no respecter of persons? Or is the infant unproven to God? Did He design some special instead?


So then in your interpretation, those people who did not hear of Christ because they lived in 6th century Japan are damned to hell?


God did chose prophets, patriarches, Israel, apostles, for a purpose.

The purpose was to make known to the world the good news of his Son Jesus Christ.

THERE IS NO ELECTION WITHOUT A PURPOSE.

God is no respector of persons WITHOUT A PURPOSE, Acts 10:34.

Robert Pate
July 31st, 2015, 07:47 AM
Robert, you really need to grow up. I gave you verses that show that we are predestinated. Why you see Calvinism when you see that term, I don't know. I certainly don't. It has nothing to do with the Calvinistic hijacking of the term, but a sound, biblical teaching on our adoption and inheritance based upon God's foreknowledge.


You apparently do not understand the Gospel.

If you did you would know that God chose all of humanity in his Son Jesus Christ. There is no individual election.

The only one that has been predestinated is Jesus Christ. He was predestinated to be the new Adam and the savior of the whole world.

The only way that anyone can be saved is by faith in Jesus Christ.

We are adopted into Jesus Christ by faith alone.

God does NOTHING outside of Jesus Christ. No predestinating, No choosing, If you want to be saved you will have to come to Christ as a repentant sinner.

"Whosoever that shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved" Romans 10:13.

RevTestament
July 31st, 2015, 07:58 AM
God did cho[o]se prophets, patriarches, Israel, apostles, for a purpose.

The purpose was to make known to the world the good news of his Son Jesus Christ.You are avoiding the meat of the question. I know He has prophets to teach the Word, but for instance, why were all the prophets basically from Israel if as you note God shows no partiality Acts 10:34?

Is it because as He said in Jer 1:4-5 He really did know Jeremiah before He formed him in the belly, and Jer had proven Himself somehow? Like He knew Christ before his body was formed in Mary?

Robert Pate
July 31st, 2015, 08:14 AM
You are avoiding the meat of the question. I know He has prophets to teach the Word, but for instance, why were all the prophets basically from Israel if as you note God shows no partiality Acts 10:34?

Is it because as He said in Jer 1:4-5 He really did know Jeremiah before He formed him in the belly, and Jer had proven Himself somehow? Like He knew Christ before his body was formed in Mary?

Your problem is not with me.

Your problem is with Peter who said, "God is no respector of persons" Acts 10:34.

All of the prophets were Jews because God chose the Jewish people to be the ones that would bring the savior of the world, into the world. They were choosen for that purpose.

Jeremiah was chosen for a purpose. His purpose was to be a prophet.

RevTestament
July 31st, 2015, 09:12 AM
Your problem is not with me.

Your problem is with Peter who said, "God is no respector of persons" Acts 10:34.
I have no "problem" either with you nor Peter. I am just pointing out something. I can see you will not believe what God actually said. It is too much for the traditional viewpoint to accept. They just choose to believe that God is talking about his "foreknowledge" or something of that sort. The scriptures say many are called but few are chosen.


All of the prophets were Jews because God chose the Jewish people to be the ones that would bring the savior of the world, into the world. They were choosen for that purpose.
You are still avoiding why just them if God is no respecter of persons and is not partial.

The scriptures say Heavenly Father is the Father of spirits - not the Father of bodies. Our bodies are created, but He "blows" our spirits into them, like Adam. When we understand this, we can be like Melchizedek - without father, mother or beginning of days, but like unto the Son of man.
Anyway just thought I'd offer this, because then the gospel makes sense. If one looks at the gospel from the viewpoint that our spirits aren't created, but existed before this world, then it makes sense that some are born chosen or foreordained to do God's work, without God showing partiality. Then Ecclesiastes makes sense when it says that the body will return to dust from which it came, but our spirits return to God. Eccl 12:7
Be well.

heir
July 31st, 2015, 11:47 AM
TULIP is an explanation of God's relationship to man, and how we are judged.

You're talking about 'good news' as if salvation comes without anything, including belief. Which is unorthodox, God does not leave that option. Sorry to break it to you.What is the gospel of your salvation? Surely, you know what it is. You claim to be a "Christian".

heir
July 31st, 2015, 11:48 AM
TULIP

:rotfl:

Are you drunk?Paul defines the word of truth as the gospel of your salvation, so why can't you tell anyone here the gospel by which you are saved? It's a simple question with a simple answer (for the saved).

Show me!

heir
July 31st, 2015, 11:49 AM
You apparently do not understand the Gospel.
Which "the gospel" are you referring to?

heir
July 31st, 2015, 12:12 PM
You apparently do not understand the Gospel.

If you did you would know that God chose all of humanity in his Son Jesus Christ. There is no individual election.

The only one that has been predestinated is Jesus Christ. He was predestinated to be the new Adam and the savior of the whole world.

The only way that anyone can be saved is by faith in Jesus Christ.

We are adopted into Jesus Christ by faith alone.

God does NOTHING outside of Jesus Christ. No predestinating, No choosing, If you want to be saved you will have to come to Christ as a repentant sinner.

"Whosoever that shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved" Romans 10:13.
Robert, you are not being truthful about what saith the scripture concerning our being predestinated. Also, I have never once implied that one need not believe something to be saved nor am I a Calvinist as I believe 1 Timothy 2:4-6 KJV. Figure that one out while you overreact in ignorance. LOL

Robert Pate
July 31st, 2015, 12:29 PM
Robert, you are not being truthful about what saith the scripture concerning our being predestinated. Also, I have never once implied that one need not believe something to be saved nor am I a Calvinist as I believe 1 Timothy 2:4-6 KJV. Figure that one out while you overreact in ignorance. LOL

We are predestinated to be conformed to the image of Christ.

We are predestinated to be the children of God.

That was God's plan for the human race.

But there is no scripture about anyone being predestinated to heaven or to hell.

Robert Pate
July 31st, 2015, 12:31 PM
Which "the gospel" are you referring to?

There is only one Gospel.

It is the Gospel that justifies the ungodly, Romans 4:5 and reconciles the world unto God, 2 Corinthians 5:19.

heir
July 31st, 2015, 12:33 PM
There is only one Gospel.Is, presently, yes, but many in the Bible.

heir
July 31st, 2015, 12:38 PM
We are predestinated to be conformed to the image of Christ.

We are predestinated to be the children of God.Agreed!



But there is no scripture about anyone being predestinated to heaven or to hell.I certainly never said there was! That's you reading Calvinism into the term predestinated. You are hypersensitive to the word even though it's a good biblical one. Not everyone who believes we are predestinated according the scriptures is a Calvinist, but that's how you read us all. You lump the Bible believer in with those who rebel against 2 Timothy 2:15 KJV. You shouldn't do that.

Robert Pate
July 31st, 2015, 12:46 PM
Agreed!


I certainly never said there was! That's you reading Calvinism into the term predestinated. You are hypersensitive to the word even though it's a good biblical one. Not everyone who believes we are predestinated according the scriptures is a Calvinist, but that's how you read us all. You lump the Bible believer in with those who rebel against 2 Timothy 2:15 KJV. You shouldn't do that.


The word "predestinated" which is usually used by Calvinist and seldom used by Christians, should always be followed with an explanation, or you will always be labeled a Calvinist.

Cons&Spires
July 31st, 2015, 01:53 PM
The word "predestinated" which is usually used by Calvinist and seldom used by Christians, should always be followed with an explanation, or you will always be labeled a Calvinist.

The original Protestant churches all hold to predestination. If you want free will theology, you might try Methodism.

The divergent churches of the reformation all initially held to it. It was the basis in theology against that of the Church's.

Robert Pate
July 31st, 2015, 04:44 PM
The original Protestant churches all hold to predestination. If you want free will theology, you might try Methodism.

The divergent churches of the reformation all initially held to it. It was the basis in theology against that of the Church's.


The "Historical Gospel" of Jesus Christ refutes the idea that God predestinates people to salvation.

God does nothing outside of his Son Jesus Christ.

Colossians 1:15, 16, 17, 18, 19.

Brother Ducky
July 31st, 2015, 06:11 PM
If you want to be saved you will have to become a "Whosoever".

"Whosoever that shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved" Romans 10:13.

But you say that Jesus is the savior of the world, and that world is every human being, so logically, all are saved [or Jesus is not the savior of the world].

Actually, Reformed folk do not have a problem with Romans 10:13. We would take issue with your idea about who will call upon the name of the Lord.

Cons&Spires
July 31st, 2015, 06:56 PM
The "Historical Gospel" of Jesus Christ refutes the idea that God predestinates people to salvation.

God does nothing outside of his Son Jesus Christ.

Colossians 1:15, 16, 17, 18, 19.

Except it doesn't. TULIP does a remarkable job of consolidating the Gospel altogether- it is why it was so successful to begin with.
Calvin was no novice of scripture. Like Luther, he had an incredible mind for it. I daresay they might even make us look like babbling fools if they should ever join one of these debates- these are the men who blew the cap off the entire object of Catholicism wholesale.

Brother Ducky
July 31st, 2015, 08:11 PM
The word "predestinated" which is usually used by Calvinist and seldom used by Christians, should always be followed with an explanation, or you will always be labeled a Calvinist.

So, you are back to your Calvinists can't be Christian?????????

heir
July 31st, 2015, 09:10 PM
Except it doesn't. TULIP does a remarkable job of consolidating the Gospel altogether- it is why it was so successful to begin with.
Calvin was no novice of scripture. Like Luther, he had an incredible mind for it. I daresay they might even make us look like babbling fools if they should ever join one of these debates- these are the men who blew the cap off the entire object of Catholicism wholesale.

What is the gospel of your salvation? You keep talking about TULIP yet cannot say what is the gospel of your salvation. Paul writes that IT (the gospel of Christ) is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth. What is IT?

Grosnick Marowbe
July 31st, 2015, 09:15 PM
Except it doesn't. TULIP does a remarkable job of consolidating the Gospel altogether- it is why it was so successful to begin with.
Calvin was no novice of scripture. Like Luther, he had an incredible mind for it. I daresay they might even make us look like babbling fools if they should ever join one of these debates- these are the men who blew the cap off the entire object of Catholicism wholesale.

Calvin was good at having certain "Heretics" killed as well! Over 50
during his "Reign of Terror." Known as, "The Pope of Geneva."

Cons&Spires
July 31st, 2015, 09:24 PM
Calvin was good at having certain "Heretics" killed as well! Over 50
during his "Reign of Terror." Known as, "The Pope of Geneva."

Blood was cheap in the Medieval and Late Ages. I can guarantee twice as many Calvinists were killed.
You just don't hear much about that because between Henry and the Pope, it was simply the law.

Grosnick Marowbe
July 31st, 2015, 09:48 PM
Blood was cheap in the Medieval and Late Ages. I can guarantee twice as many Calvinists were killed.
You just don't hear much about that because between Henry and the Pope, it was simply the law.

So we should cut Calvin a break huh?

Cons&Spires
July 31st, 2015, 09:57 PM
So we should cut Calvin a break huh?

Perhaps. Do you know how dangerous the people he put to death were?

RevTestament
July 31st, 2015, 10:36 PM
Perhaps. Do you know how dangerous the people he put to death were?

As dangerous as Barak Hussein Obama?

Cons&Spires
July 31st, 2015, 10:51 PM
As dangerous as Barak Hussein Obama?

The Catholic Church was a very dangerous entity to anyone who opposed it during the time.
Calvin tended to his influence for a good long time, and rooted out these people in Geneva.

Ask Mr. Religion
August 1st, 2015, 12:51 AM
Calvin was good at having certain "Heretics" killed as well! Over 50
during his "Reign of Terror." Known as, "The Pope of Geneva."

If you could produce credible historical data to support this I would be interested in reviewing the same.

In the meantime, I can point you to an accurate treatment:

http://heidelblog.net/2013/04/the-calvin-as-tyrant-meme-2/

My stock answer to the often made "Calvin is a murderer" meme, especially as relates to Servetus...

My personal view is that Calvin, as a pastor in Geneva, should have been more public about the verdict, calling for mercy, etc. That said, I doubt that this would have accomplished much, given the political climate at the time.

Anyone who thinks the Reformed faithful consider Calvin, Luther, etc., to be a perfect man is mistaken. There has been only one perfect man, the God-man Jesus Christ.

Two sources on the matter:
Calvin College - Meeter Center - The Michael Servetus Controversy (http://www.calvin.edu/meeter/resources/servetus.htm)

Thirdmill Answer Servetus (http://www.thirdmill.org/answers/answer.asp/file/99812.qna/category/ch/page/questions/site/iiim)

I realize it is easy to mimic the usual anti-Calvin cavils one finds on internet discussion sites. It is much more difficult to dig into the historical records and come to a more informed view. :AMR:

Barring the quest to avoid being intellectually lazy, I suppose the following will suffice...

19990
[Click to enlarge]

;)

AMR

Cons&Spires
August 1st, 2015, 01:02 AM
http://a2.files.biography.com/image/upload/c_fill,cs_srgb,dpr_1.0,g_face,h_300,q_80,w_300/MTE5NTU2MzE2MTcyNDg2MTU1.jpg
http://a2.files.biography.com/image/upload/c_fill,cs_srgb,dpr_1.0,g_face,h_300,q_80,w_300/MTE1ODA0OTcxNzA3MjM3OTAx.jpg

You cannot contend with these men, Grosnick.

rougueone
August 1st, 2015, 01:55 AM
Instead of stating the above (title or not), you should clarify that it's not predestination according to the Bible that you don't believe in, but the doctrine of predestination in Calvinism or according to Calvinism because to say that you don't believe in predestination puts you at odds with the word of God as we are predestinated unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to Himself.

(see also Rom 8:28-30 KJV)

Ephesians 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:

Ephesians 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

Ephesians 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

Ephesians 1:6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

And in Whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of Him who worketh all things after the counsel of His own will:

Ephesians 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

Ephesians 1:12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.

Ephesians 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

Ephesians 1:14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

Bottom line is as you stated Heir.


because to say that you don't believe in predestination puts you at odds with the word of God as we are predestinated unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to Himself.


Bulls eye Heir. And if one "doubts" predestination" then they may be better off re examining their own purpose about Jesus, starting with Genesis through Revelations. The entire focus of the Spoken-written word of our Lord, Jesus is essentially all based on " Predestination". The theme of Scripture is predestination .

Those who are indeed Christians are chosen. And people who have a problem with this have problems with God. Perhaps they doubt, perhaps they hold a "doubting Thomas Spiirt". I don't know. I was chosen. I did not "FIND GOD". God found me. GOD chose me. I did not choose GOD.

Examples: KJV,

But you are A CHOSEN RACE, A royal PRIESTHOOD, A HOLY NATION, A PEOPLE FOR God's OWN POSSESSION, so that you may proclaim the excellencies of Him who has called you out of darkness into His marvelous light;

Just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him In love He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will, - See more at:

"No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; ( CHOOSES ) ,and I will raise him up on the last day

Galatians 1:1 “Paul, an apostle—not from men nor through man, but through Jesus Christ and God the Father, who raised him from the dead.”
Colossians 1:1 “Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God.”
First Corinthians 1:1 “Paul, called by the will of God to be an apostle of Christ Jesus.”

And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called ( CHOSEN) ,according to His purpose.

For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand ( PREDESTINED ) ,so that we would walk in them.


also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will,

Romans 8:29--30... For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren. And these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified



John 15:16
John 6:37

"For you are a holy people to the LORD your God; the LORD your God has chosen you to be a people for His own possession out of all the peoples who are on the face of the earth. DEUT. 7:6

"For many are called, but few are chosen."


There are so many satanically driven sanctions against Jesus and HIS people it would be frightening had not we been warned these day's would occur. Mid Acts, Paulinist, Ameniallist (?) , Trinitarians, ET....All by people who are themselves boxed in by the dark spirits who work to devour anyone. by any means available.

Good post Heir. Amen. Holy Spirit blesses us through Heir.

Robert Pate
August 1st, 2015, 07:26 AM
But you say that Jesus is the savior of the world, and that world is every human being, so logically, all are saved [or Jesus is not the savior of the world].

Actually, Reformed folk do not have a problem with Romans 10:13. We would take issue with your idea about who will call upon the name of the Lord.


The Bible teaches that Jesus is the savior of the whole world, 1 John 2:2, 1 John 4:14, John 12:47, John 4:42, John 3:17.

To deny that Jesus is the savior of the world is to deny the Gospel.

In the Gospel Jesus defeats sin, death and the devil and reconciles the world unto God, 2 Corinthians 5:19.

To deny that Jesus has defeated sin, death and the devil is to deny that Jesus is Lord.

To deny the Gospel and to deny that Jesus is Lord, means that you are not a Christian, plain and simple.

Robert Pate
August 1st, 2015, 07:31 AM
If God chooses some to salvation and damns the rest to hell then you have an unjust God.

If God is unjust then that means that God is a sinner.

If God is a sinner then we can't trust him.

rougueone
August 1st, 2015, 06:33 PM
A Christian.

A Bible believing, Gospel embraceing, justified by faith alone, Christian.

Ok then Robert. Well said.
Now how did you come to such faith? How did you realize the Scriptures were God's spoken-written word ?
How did you know the truth as you stated " justified by faith alone, Christian.

You were chosen by God. To know these truths.

This does not make you a student of Calvinism. It makes you a person whom upon Gods will, to choose you, ( as God does to all people ), to know salvation by faith alone. To know you are a Christian.

Ask Mr. Religion
August 2nd, 2015, 02:02 AM
You cannot contend with these men, Grosnick.

I contend ("strive to overcome") with them regularly ;) and with all the saints that have come before us, taking every word captive for the glory of God, of course (1 Cor. 10:5).

We should not be so full of chronological snobbery (http://www.cslewisinstitute.org/webfm_send/47) to assume we moderns know more than men who were indwelt by the same Spirit that indwells us today. It is sad to see not a few herein who rest comfortably in their own superficial knowledge of this or that, then setting about parroting others of the same ilk, all the while refusing to steep themselves in gaining deeper knowledge of those whom they caricature, mining the potential treasures that lie within. I suppose this sort of behavior makes for entertainment, tickles itching ears, and satisfies one's desire to be seen, but I prefer a more studied approach to weighty matters of the faith we hold dear.

I do engage the Scriptures daily, and I am daily changed by them. I also remain convinced of the wisdom of the forefathers that came before us when I read what they have written and compare their writings to Scripture. It seems not a month or two goes by that someone somewhere decides they have a new view, new perspective, or new interpretation related to the fundamentals of our faith; despite these fundamentals having withstood the test of time and painful examination for many, many, hundreds of years.

Thus I become very concerned about discussions that start to challenge these fundamentals. For those who see themselves as theological sophisticates, I would hope and pray that these persons seek a more irenic approach, rather than trying to be innovative. I recognize that within theological circles it seems that only if one is radical or a trail-blazer that they garner attention. But the constant plowing up of new ground is not what I see as the task of theological discourse. Indeed, I am very content to step back, ponder, and be satisfied to walk in the same steps of those who have come before me—those who have mapped out the road ahead such that we may avoid tripping over the rocks along the well-worn path. In fact, being more willing to do so is what is needed today, versus demonstrations to others how wonderful one's insightful exegesis, logic, or sophisticated reasoning may be.

AMR

Totton Linnet
August 2nd, 2015, 03:42 AM
If God chooses some to salvation and damns the rest to hell then you have an unjust God.

If God is unjust then that means that God is a sinner.

If God is a sinner then we can't trust him.

This tired minded lazy good for nothingism

too lazy to study what the scriptures actually teach......

beloved57
August 2nd, 2015, 03:44 AM
If God chooses some to salvation and damns the rest to hell then you have an unjust God.
If God is unjust then that means that God is a sinner.

If God is a sinner then we can't trust him.

Evil speaking against the True God since He has chosen some for Heaven and some for hell and damnation !

Robert Pate
August 2nd, 2015, 07:31 AM
Ok then Robert. Well said.
Now how did you come to such faith? How did you realize the Scriptures were God's spoken-written word ?
How did you know the truth as you stated " justified by faith alone, Christian.

You were chosen by God. To know these truths.

This does not make you a student of Calvinism. It makes you a person whom upon Gods will, to choose you, ( as God does to all people ), to know salvation by faith alone. To know you are a Christian.


The Holy Spirit called me and I answered by saying yes.

I could have resisted, but I chose not to.

God does not impose salvation on any one, Hebrews 3:15.

Robert Pate
August 2nd, 2015, 07:35 AM
This tired minded lazy good for nothingism

too lazy to study what the scriptures actually teach......

The scriptures teach that God is holy, just, merciful and righteous and is not willing that any should perish.

What does your Bible teach?

Robert Pate
August 2nd, 2015, 07:37 AM
I contend ("strive to overcome") with them regularly ;) and with all the saints that have come before us, taking every word captive for the glory of God, of course (1 Cor. 10:5).

We should not be so full of chronological snobbery (http://www.cslewisinstitute.org/webfm_send/47) to assume we moderns know more than men who were indwelt by the same Spirit that indwells us today. It is sad to see not a few herein who rest comfortably in their own superficial knowledge of this or that, then setting about parroting others of the same ilk, all the while refusing to steep themselves in gaining deeper knowledge of those whom they caricature, mining the potential treasures that lie within. I suppose this sort of behavior makes for entertainment, tickles itching ears, and satisfies one's desire to be seen, but I prefer a more studied approach to weighty matters of the faith we hold dear.

I do engage the Scriptures daily, and I am daily changed by them. I also remain convinced of the wisdom of the forefathers that came before us when I read what they have written and compare their writings to Scripture. It seems not a month or two goes by that someone somewhere decides they have a new view, new perspective, or new interpretation related to the fundamentals of our faith; despite these fundamentals having withstood the test of time and painful examination for many, many, hundreds of years.

Thus I become very concerned about discussions that start to challenge these fundamentals. For those who see themselves as theological sophisticates, I would hope and pray that these persons seek a more irenic approach, rather than trying to be innovative. I recognize that within theological circles it seems that only if one is radical or a trail-blazer that they garner attention. But the constant plowing up of new ground is not what I see as the task of theological discourse. Indeed, I am very content to step back, ponder, and be satisfied to walk in the same steps of those who have come before me—those who have mapped out the road ahead such that we may avoid tripping over the rocks along the well-worn path. In fact, being more willing to do so is what is needed today, versus demonstrations to others how wonderful one's insightful exegesis, logic, or sophisticated reasoning may be.

AMR


Your doctrine should be... "The Gospel plus nothing".

Instead you seem to think that it is all about you.

Brother Ducky
August 2nd, 2015, 11:31 AM
If God chooses some to salvation and damns the rest to hell then you have an unjust God.

Certainly one of your stock , unsupported, thesis statements. Why don't you make a logical Biblical case for your statement. Be sure to factor in the fact that all is his to do with as he pleases.

Totton Linnet
August 2nd, 2015, 03:18 PM
The scriptures teach that God is holy, just, merciful and righteous and is not willing that any should perish.

What does your Bible teach?

The Lord the Lord a God merciful and gracious, slow to anger and abounding in steadfast love and faithfulness, keeping steadfast love for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin


...but who will by no means clear the guilty.

We believe very simply that God always knew who those guilty were. Nor can you or anyone show where God predestined their guiltiness.

But we can and do show where He predestined and chose US to be in Christ.

Robert Pate
August 2nd, 2015, 06:30 PM
Certainly one of your stock , unsupported, thesis statements. Why don't you make a logical Biblical case for your statement. Be sure to factor in the fact that all is his to do with as he pleases.

Of course you are wrong.

God cannot and will not violate his holy, just, merciful and righteous nature.

Robert Pate
August 2nd, 2015, 06:32 PM
The Lord the Lord a God merciful and gracious, slow to anger and abounding in steadfast love and faithfulness, keeping steadfast love for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin


...but who will by no means clear the guilty.

We believe very simply that God always knew who those guilty were. Nor can you or anyone show where God predestined their guiltiness.

But we can and do show where He predestined and chose US to be in Christ.


God chose all of humanity in Jesus Christ.

Was it not Jesus Christ that reconciled the whole world unto God?

Brother Ducky
August 2nd, 2015, 08:20 PM
Of course you are wrong.

God cannot and will not violate his holy, just, merciful and righteous nature.

Well you might be correct, but I doubt it. However, why should I take your unsupported word for it? All you have to do is make a logical and Biblical case for your position.

And I certainly do agree with your second statement, however I think you do not understand what God can do and not violate his nature.

beloved57
August 2nd, 2015, 10:11 PM
God chose all of humanity in Jesus Christ.

Was it not Jesus Christ that reconciled the whole world unto God?

Invalid comments not supported by one scripture!

Robert Pate
August 3rd, 2015, 07:07 AM
Invalid comments not supported by one scripture!

How about 2 Corinthians 5:18, 19.

You have been reconciled unto God, NOT predestinated.

Not only did God reconcile you unto himself by Jesus Christ, he reconciled the whole world unto himself by Jesus Christ.

beloved57
August 3rd, 2015, 07:28 AM
How about 2 Corinthians 5:18, 19.

You have been reconciled unto God, NOT predestinated.

Not only did God reconcile you unto himself by Jesus Christ, he reconciled the whole world unto himself by Jesus Christ.
See my threads on 2 Cor 5:18-19 ! They apply to Gods Elect World!

Robert Pate
August 3rd, 2015, 09:23 AM
See my threads on 2 Cor 5:18-19 ! They apply to Gods Elect World!

Wht should I read your threads?

The Bible says that God has reconciled the world unto himself by Jesus Christ, 2 Corinthians 5:18, 19.

All that your threads are going to say is that the word "World" means the world of the elect. Which is a lie.

j4jesus09
August 3rd, 2015, 09:36 AM
Wht should I read your threads?

The Bible says that God has reconciled the world unto himself by Jesus Christ, 2 Corinthians 5:18, 19.

All that your threads are going to say is that the word "World" means the world of the elect. Which is a lie.

I really do enjoy these discussions. In a dark world discussing scripture can be the most enjoyable activity. It seems everyone believes they are right. :) My thought is if God has reconciled something to himself wouldn't that something be reconciled period. Woudn't the statement be invalid, if God reconciled the world as claimed then the world wouldn't be totally reconciled? It appears that the world literally will not be totally reconciled according to believing everyone will not be saved. When two people seperate and divorce it is considered reconciliation if the two join together. Doesn't it take two? So if God reconciled the world then one, it either will be totally reconciled as he said he did, or two it can't be referring to everyone. If we examine the scriptures what do we find it to say?

beloved57
August 3rd, 2015, 09:40 AM
Wht should I read your threads?

The Bible says that God has reconciled the world unto himself by Jesus Christ, 2 Corinthians 5:18, 19.

All that your threads are going to say is that the word "World" means the world of the elect. Which is a lie.

I have explained my points on 2Cor:18-19 in my threads! Those scriptures only apply to Gods Elect World!

beloved57
August 3rd, 2015, 09:45 AM
I really do enjoy these discussions. In a dark world discussing scripture can be the most enjoyable activity. It seems everyone believes they are right. :) My thought is if God has reconciled something to himself wouldn't that something be reconciled period. Woudn't the statement be invalid, if God reconciled the world as claimed then the world wouldn't be totally reconciled? It appears that the world literally will not be totally reconciled according to believing everyone will not be saved. When two people seperate and divorce it is considered reconciliation if the two join together. Doesn't it take two? So if God reconciled the world then one, it either will be totally reconciled as he said he did, or two it can't be referring to everyone. If we examine the scriptures what do we find it to say?
Those Christ reconciled to God by His Death shall be saved by His life Rom 5:10 !

So no one who is lost in their sins in unbelief and hellbound were reconciled to God!

j4jesus09
August 3rd, 2015, 09:58 AM
Those Christ reconciled to God by His Death shall be saved by His life Rom 5:10 !

So no one who is lost in their sins in unbelief and hellbound were reconciled to God!

I would agree with that statement. However, I do I know it is extermely controversial but because of the love, mercy, justice, grace and mercy I believe He will save the whole world in the age to come. Judgement will be on everyone some now and some later but I believe God is able to save all. If I'm wrong about that then God is still saving who he chooses. I'm glad to be apart of his family.

1st
17 For the time has come for judgment to begin at the house of God; and if it begins with us first, what will be the end of those who do not obey the gospel of God?

beloved57
August 3rd, 2015, 10:01 AM
I would agree with that statement. However, I do I know it is extermely controversial but because of the love, mercy, justice, grace and mercy I believe He will save the whole world in the age to come. Judgement will be on everyone some now and some later but I believe God is able to save all. If I'm wrong about that then God is still saving who he chooses. I'm glad to be apart of his family.

1st
17 For the time has come for judgment to begin at the house of God; and if it begins with us first, what will be the end of those who do not obey the gospel of God?
Yes you are wrong, Jesus said that those who are under Gods Wrath shall not see life! John 3:36 !That's a Promise!

j4jesus09
August 3rd, 2015, 10:13 AM
Yes you are wrong, Jesus said that those who are under Gods Wrath shall not see life! John 3:36 !That's a Promise!

They won't until the believe on the Son. That is true. That's why I said I believe God will save everyone in the age to come to believe in the Son.

Romans 14:10-12
10You, then, why do you judge your brother or sister? Or why do you treat them with contempt? For we will all stand before God’s judgment seat. 11 It is written:


“ ‘As surely as I live,’ says the Lord,

‘every knee will bow before me;

every tongue will acknowledge God.’ ”b

12So then, each of us will give an account of ourselves to God

beloved57
August 3rd, 2015, 10:16 AM
They won't until the believe on the Son. That is true. That's why I said I believe God will save everyone in the age to come to believe in the Son.

Romans 14:10-12
10You, then, why do you judge your brother or sister? Or why do you treat them with contempt? For we will all stand before God’s judgment seat. 11 It is written:


“ ‘As surely as I live,’ says the Lord,

‘every knee will bow before me;

every tongue will acknowledge God.’ ”b

12So then, each of us will give an account of ourselves to God
They shall not see life is in the future tense! That means they shall not in the future see life, that is a promise!

j4jesus09
August 3rd, 2015, 10:20 AM
They shall not see life is in the future tense! That means they shall not in the future see life, that is a promise!

Surely, that is the case. Before God revealed the gospel to you and I we didn't have life. Life starts when we are born again! I couldn't imagine a life where He didn't exist as once I lived totally unto myself. Let's not detour from the topic though. :)

beloved57
August 3rd, 2015, 10:22 AM
Surely, that is the case. Before God revealed the gospel to you and we didn't have life. Life starts when we are born again! I couldn't imagine a life where He didn't exist as once I live totally unto myself.

They shall not see life! I am finished discussing it!

Robert Pate
August 3rd, 2015, 11:21 AM
I really do enjoy these discussions. In a dark world discussing scripture can be the most enjoyable activity. It seems everyone believes they are right. :) My thought is if God has reconciled something to himself wouldn't that something be reconciled period. Woudn't the statement be invalid, if God reconciled the world as claimed then the world wouldn't be totally reconciled? It appears that the world literally will not be totally reconciled according to believing everyone will not be saved. When two people seperate and divorce it is considered reconciliation if the two join together. Doesn't it take two? So if God reconciled the world then one, it either will be totally reconciled as he said he did, or two it can't be referring to everyone. If we examine the scriptures what do we find it to say?


God sees ALL THINGS in his Son Jesus Christ, Colossians 1:20.

Jesus Christ is God's new Adam and our new humanity, 2 Corinthians 5:17.

We become reconciled unto God and a part of God's new humanity by faith in Christ and his Gospel.

Paul said, "Be ye reconciled unto God" 2 Corinthians 5:20.

God is extending his hand of reconciliation to all of humanity.

beloved57
August 3rd, 2015, 12:01 PM
God sees ALL THINGS in his Son Jesus Christ, Colossians 1:20.

Jesus Christ is God's new Adam and our new humanity, 2 Corinthians 5:17.


We become reconciled unto God and a part of God's new humanity by faith in Christ and his Gospel.

Paul said, "Be ye reconciled unto God" 2 Corinthians 5:20.

God is extending his hand of reconciliation to all of humanity.

Invalid comments !

Those Christ died for are reconciled to God by His Death while they are enemies and unbelievers, faithless Rom 5:10

10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

beloved57
August 3rd, 2015, 12:04 PM
God sees ALL THINGS in his Son Jesus Christ, Colossians 1:20.

Jesus Christ is God's new Adam and our new humanity, 2 Corinthians 5:17.


We become reconciled unto God and a part of God's new humanity by faith in Christ and his Gospel.

Paul said, "Be ye reconciled unto God" 2 Corinthians 5:20.

God is extending his hand of reconciliation to all of humanity.

Invali comment !

j4jesus09
August 3rd, 2015, 12:35 PM
God sees ALL THINGS in his Son Jesus Christ, Colossians 1:20.

Jesus Christ is God's new Adam and our new humanity, 2 Corinthians 5:17.

We become reconciled unto God and a part of God's new humanity by faith in Christ and his Gospel.

Paul said, "Be ye reconciled unto God" 2 Corinthians 5:20.

God is extending his hand of reconciliation to all of humanity.

Okay, what about mentally or challenged people? How do they receive salvation? Or the people that are deaf and blind? Have you considered how this applies to the less fortunate? Since we have the ability to read and comprehend I get your point. What about areas that have not heard about Christ? And once hearing the gospel what causes them to believe in Jesus Christ?

Robert Pate
August 3rd, 2015, 01:01 PM
Okay, what about mentally or challenged people? How do they receive salvation? Or the people that are deaf and blind? Have you considered how this applies to the less fortunate? Since we have the ability to read and comprehend I get your point. What about areas that have not heard about Christ? And once hearing the gospel what causes them to believe in Jesus Christ?


God is the just judge.

Everyone will be judged according to what has been revealed to them.

Those that teach will be judged more critically.

j4jesus09
August 3rd, 2015, 01:09 PM
God is the just judge.

Everyone will be judged according to what has been revealed to them.

Those that teach will be judged more critically.

Agreed, James 3:1 states this. 1Not many of you should become teachers, my fellow believers, because you know that we who teach will be judged more strictly.

But that's where the rubber meets the road. The clear message is Jesus Christ! If a person can't comprehend and believe that how do you reconcile they can be saved? Because now you are saying it must be revealed? That's what predestination is about. Revelation! It must be revealed to you in order to believe.

beloved57
August 3rd, 2015, 01:15 PM
God is the just judge.

Everyone will be judged according to what has been revealed to them.

Those that teach will be judged more critically.

And guess what ? The Gospel which you belittle and call Calvinism has been revealed to you, and you shall be judged accordingly in that Great Day !:eek:

Robert Pate
August 3rd, 2015, 03:02 PM
And guess what ? The Gospel which you belittle and call Calvinism has been revealed to you, and you shall be judged accordingly in that Great Day !:eek:

There is no Gospel in Calvinism.

Robert Pate
August 3rd, 2015, 03:07 PM
Agreed, James 3:1 states this. 1Not many of you should become teachers, my fellow believers, because you know that we who teach will be judged more strictly.

But that's where the rubber meets the road. The clear message is Jesus Christ! If a person can't comprehend and believe that how do you reconcile they can be saved? Because now you are saying it must be revealed? That's what predestination is about. Revelation! It must be revealed to you in order to believe.

The Holy Spirit is in the world calling all to come to Christ and be saved.

On the day of Pentecost they heard the Gospel, they believed the Gospel and they were saved, Acts 2:41.

I have found that those who have a repentant heart are the ones that come to Christ.

beloved57
August 3rd, 2015, 04:12 PM
There is no Gospel in Calvinism.
Calvinism is the Gospel!

Nanja
August 3rd, 2015, 05:04 PM
Calvinism is the Gospel!

Amen. TULIP is the Gospel!

Jesus Christ the Saviour, does not merely make it possible,
but absolutely Saves all, every single Chosen Son Eph. 1:4-5, for whom He died!

~~~~~

beloved57
August 3rd, 2015, 05:08 PM
Amen. TULIP is the Gospel!

Jesus Christ the Saviour, does not merely make it possible,
but absolutely Saves all, every single Chosen Son Eph. 1:4-5, for whom He died!

~~~~~
Sure you right!

Robert Pate
August 3rd, 2015, 05:15 PM
Amen. TULIP is the Gospel!

Jesus Christ the Saviour, does not merely make it possible,
but absolutely Saves all, every single Chosen Son Eph. 1:4-5, for whom He died!

~~~~~

The scripture makes it very plain that Christ died for the sins of the whole world, 1 John 2:2 also 1 John 4:14.

You are in rebellion towards the word of God. You deny these scriptures and in doing so you deny that Jesus is the savior of the whole world. You are in danger of hell fire.

Nanja
August 3rd, 2015, 07:26 PM
The scripture makes it very plain that Christ died for the sins of the whole world, 1 John 2:2 also 1 John 4:14.

You are in rebellion towards the word of God. You deny these scriptures and in doing so you deny that Jesus is the savior of the whole world. You are in danger of hell fire.


It is God's will that you are blinded by the devil to the Truth of the Scriptures! 2 Cor. 4:3-4 KJV.

~~~~~

beloved57
August 4th, 2015, 12:08 AM
The scripture makes it very plain that Christ died for the sins of the whole world, 1 John 2:2 also 1 John 4:14.

You are in rebellion towards the word of God. You deny these scriptures and in doing so you deny that Jesus is the savior of the whole world. You are in danger of hell fire.

Those scriptures only apply to Gods Elect! They have been explained to you many times before!

beloved57
August 4th, 2015, 12:09 AM
It is God's will that you are blinded by the devil to the Truth of the Scriptures! 2 Cor. 4:3-4 KJV.

~~~~~

You are correct!

eddie17
August 4th, 2015, 12:51 AM
So robert the question is are you going to ignore all the predestination passages and tough passages to fit your doctrine?? or is your pride that bad that you think you have all the answers??

Robert Pate
August 4th, 2015, 07:23 AM
So robert the question is are you going to ignore all the predestination passages and tough passages to fit your doctrine?? or is your pride that bad that you think you have all the answers??


There is no scripture about anyone being predestinated to heaven or to hell.

If predestination were a true doctrine the Bible would be full of it. There is NOTHING.

The word "Predestination" only appears in the Bible 4 times.

The word is not associated with anyones salvation.

Predestinated to be adopted children of God by Jesus Christ, Ephesians 1:5.

Predestinated to be conformed to the image of Christ, Romans 8:29.

Predestinated to be called, Romans 8:30.

But NOTHING about being predestinated to salvation.

Calvinism is the religion of assumptions. You must assume that the scriptures are saying something, but there are no biblical facts.

beloved57
August 4th, 2015, 07:26 AM
pate



There is no scripture about anyone being predestinated to heaven or to hell.




Thats a lie, scripture plainly states that some have been predestinated to Christ likeness which is Salvation altogether Rom 8:29

29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Robert Pate
August 4th, 2015, 07:50 AM
pate



Thats a lie, scripture plainly states that some have been predestinated to Christ likeness which is Salvation altogether Rom 8:29

29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.


What does "That he might be the first born among many brethern" mean to you?

How is Jesus the first born among many brethern?

Who are the "Called" according to his purpose? Were not all of the disciples called according to his purpose?

What about Romans 8:32 where it says... "He that spared not his Son , but delivered him up FOR US ALL?

j4jesus09
August 4th, 2015, 11:31 AM
The Holy Spirit is in the world calling all to come to Christ and be saved.

On the day of Pentecost they heard the Gospel, they believed the Gospel and they were saved, Acts 2:41.

I have found that those who have a repentant heart are the ones that come to Christ.

Question how does the Holy Spirit call the world or maybe to break it down even more how does he call an individual? The statement on the day of Pentecost you made is a true and a historical statement. We should believe it! I agree you must have a repentant heart to come to Christ. God gets us there strategically. God is the master orchestrator! Do you agree God has anything to do with getting us there to salvation or are we on our own?

beloved57
August 4th, 2015, 11:36 AM
What does "That he might be the first born among many brethern" mean to you?

How is Jesus the first born among many brethern?

Who are the "Called" according to his purpose? Were not all of the disciples called according to his purpose?

What about Romans 8:32 where it says... "He that spared not his Son , but delivered him up FOR US ALL?
Rom 8:29 condemns your unbelief! They were foreknew before they were believers, so they were predestinated from unbelief to Glory! That's predestination to Salvation with Eternal Glory!

j4jesus09
August 4th, 2015, 11:38 AM
There is no scripture about anyone being predestinated to heaven or to hell.

If predestination were a true doctrine the Bible would be full of it. There is NOTHING.

The word "Predestination" only appears in the Bible 4 times.

The word is not associated with anyones salvation.

Predestinated to be adopted children of God by Jesus Christ, Ephesians 1:5.

Predestinated to be conformed to the image of Christ, Romans 8:29.

Predestinated to be called, Romans 8:30.

But NOTHING about being predestinated to salvation.

Calvinism is the religion of assumptions. You must assume that the scriptures are saying something, but there are no biblical facts.

God predestinated us to be like Jesus Christ but not salvation is your view. If you are being predestinated to be like Jesus wouldn't you have to be in salvation? Of course right. So God does nothing to predestinate us until we are only saved is your viewpoint? Then when we are saved we are then predestinated right. So you believe we are predestinated which would mean after salvation everything we do is already been done. Why can't you see that before salvation it's still predestinated? God has predestinated all GOOD and no EVIL, no matter if we can understand things sometimes. I will wait for your feeback though.

eddie17
August 4th, 2015, 12:35 PM
There is no scripture about anyone being predestinated to heaven or to hell.

If predestination were a true doctrine the Bible would be full of it. There is NOTHING.

The word "Predestination" only appears in the Bible 4 times.

The word is not associated with anyones salvation.

Predestinated to be adopted children of God by Jesus Christ, Ephesians 1:5.

Predestinated to be conformed to the image of Christ, Romans 8:29.

Predestinated to be called, Romans 8:30.

But NOTHING about being predestinated to salvation.

Calvinism is the religion of assumptions. You must assume that the scriptures are saying something, but there are no biblical facts.

Did he predestin for his son to be put on the cross,or did he just put his son down on the earth and say lets see what happens here??

Robert Pate
August 4th, 2015, 02:25 PM
Rom 8:29 condemns your unbelief! They were foreknew before they were believers, so they were predestinated from unbelief to Glory! That's predestination to Salvation with Eternal Glory!


You didn't answer my questions because you don't know.

Predestination makes God unjust. God is not unjust, but Calvinism is.

Robert Pate
August 4th, 2015, 02:29 PM
Did he predestin for his son to be put on the cross,or did he just put his son down on the earth and say lets see what happens here??

It was God's plan that Jesus would die for the sins of the world before the foundation of the world, Revelation 13:8.

Robert Pate
August 4th, 2015, 02:32 PM
God predestinated us to be like Jesus Christ but not salvation is your view. If you are being predestinated to be like Jesus wouldn't you have to be in salvation? Of course right. So God does nothing to predestinate us until we are only saved is your viewpoint? Then when we are saved we are then predestinated right. So you believe we are predestinated which would mean after salvation everything we do is already been done. Why can't you see that before salvation it's still predestinated? God has predestinated all GOOD and no EVIL, no matter if we can understand things sometimes. I will wait for your feeback though.

The doctrine of predestination makes God unjust.

If you believe that God predestinates people to hell then you do not have faith in him.

j4jesus09
August 4th, 2015, 02:45 PM
The doctrine of predestination makes God unjust.

If you believe that God predestinates people to hell then you do not have faith in him.

How does it make him unjust? Elaborate

What do I not have faith in him about? I will add once I hear your understanding.

Robert Pate
August 4th, 2015, 02:53 PM
How does it make him unjust? Elaborate

What do I not have faith in him about? I will add once I hear your understanding.


Do you think that its fair for God to send people to hell for no reason other than they were born after Adam?

Saving faith is a faith that believes that Jesus has atoned for your sins and is your savior.

beloved57
August 4th, 2015, 10:16 PM
Do you think that its fair for God to send people to hell for no reason other than they were born after Adam?

Saving faith is a faith that believes that Jesus has atoned for your sins and is your savior.

Invalid comments not supported by scripture!

beloved57
August 4th, 2015, 10:17 PM
The doctrine of predestination makes God unjust.

If you believe that God predestinates people to hell then you do not have faith in him.

Evil speaking against the Gospel and God !

Robert Pate
August 5th, 2015, 07:02 AM
Evil speaking against the Gospel and God !

What you have faith in is a heretic and his phony Christ denying doctrine.

beloved57
August 5th, 2015, 08:37 AM
What you have faith in is a heretic and his phony Christ denying doctrine.
More of the same!

j4jesus09
August 5th, 2015, 11:34 AM
Do you think that its fair for God to send people to hell for no reason other than they were born after Adam?

Saving faith is a faith that believes that Jesus has atoned for your sins and is your savior.


First, I agree with the last statement saving faith is that! Okay I see how to answer your other statement. But I must humbly ask what do you call fair, and what criteria do you use to measure fairness. I am just reasoning with you not stating a fact or what, but using your method, is it fair for God to create people, allow them to be born for 70 or such years, and have them spend ETERNITY in hell, for 70 years of life? Is that fair? Want to hear your thoughts before we continue. :)

Robert Pate
August 5th, 2015, 11:56 AM
First, I agree with the last statement saving faith is that! Okay I see how to answer your other statement. But I must humbly ask what do you call fair, and what criteria do you use to measure fairness. I am just reasoning with you not stating a fact or what, but using your method, is it fair for God to create people, allow them to be born for 70 or such years, and have them spend ETERNITY in hell, for 70 years of life? Is that fair? Want to hear your thoughts before we continue. :)

God gives life. What a person does with his life is his responsibility, not God's. If anyone goes to hell it is because they have refused to accept God's great free gift of salvation that has been provided by Jesus Christ, Ephesians 2:8.

Did God tell us to drink alcohol and become an alcoholic?

Did God tells to smoke cigarettes and get lung cancer?

Man is his own worst enemy, not God.

The Bible tells us what is fair and what is not fair, but you will never know if you don't read it.

God has done all that he can do for the salvation of fallen man, but he won't impose it upon you. If you want to be saved you will have to call on Christ to save you, Romans 10:13.

beloved57
August 5th, 2015, 12:28 PM
God gives life. What a person does with his life is his responsibility, not God's. If anyone goes to hell it is because they have refused to accept God's great free gift of salvation that has been provided by Jesus Christ, Ephesians 2:8.

Did God tell us to drink alcohol and become an alcoholic?

Did God tells to smoke cigarettes and get lung cancer?

Man is his own worst enemy, not God.

The Bible tells us what is fair and what is not fair, but you will never know if you don't read it.

God has done all that he can do for the salvation of fallen man, but he won't impose it upon you. If you want to be saved you will have to call on Christ to save you, Romans 10:13.

Invalid comments not supported by one scripture!

j4jesus09
August 5th, 2015, 12:29 PM
God gives life. What a person does with his life is his responsibility, not God's. If anyone goes to hell it is because they have refused to accept God's great free gift of salvation that has been provided by Jesus Christ, Ephesians 2:8.

Did God tell us to drink alcohol and become an alcoholic?

Did God tells to smoke cigarettes and get lung cancer?

Man is his own worst enemy, not God.

The Bible tells us what is fair and what is not fair, but you will never know if you don't read it.

God has done all that he can do for the salvation of fallen man, but he won't impose it upon you. If you want to be saved you will have to call on Christ to save you, Romans 10:13.

Right, but I asked you this. IF GOD who knows already ahead of time knows your decision why would HE give LIFE knowing that. He didn't have to give life. Is that fair? Simple question. Man to man. Would you give someone life knowing they would spend eternity in torment would you give life or never give it?

Robert Pate
August 6th, 2015, 12:19 PM
Right, but I asked you this. IF GOD who knows already ahead of time knows your decision why would HE give LIFE knowing that. He didn't have to give life. Is that fair? Simple question. Man to man. Would you give someone life knowing they would spend eternity in torment would you give life or never give it?


Maybe God doesn't know. Maybe he limits himself.

The scripture says that the angels in heaven rejoice over one sinner that repents, Luke 15:7, 10.

j4jesus09
August 6th, 2015, 01:46 PM
Maybe God doesn't know. Maybe he limits himself.

The scripture says that the angels in heaven rejoice over one sinner that repents, Luke 15:7, 10.

Maybe he doesnt? Hmm. Where does it say in the bible God doesn't know all things including the future? Are there any scriptures that do show God knows everything including the future?

Bright Raven
August 6th, 2015, 01:49 PM
Why do you not believe in predestination? It is in scripture.

Romans 8:29 For those whom He foreknew, He predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, so that He might be the firstborn among many brothers.

Romans 8:30 And those whom He predestined, He also called; and those whom He called, He also justified; and those whom He justified, He also glorified.

Ephesians 1:5 He predestined us to adoption as sons to Himself through Jesus Christ according to the good pleasure of His will,

Ephesians 1:11 In Him also we have received an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His own will,

beloved57
August 6th, 2015, 02:20 PM
Maybe God doesn't know. Maybe he limits himself.

The scripture says that the angels in heaven rejoice over one sinner that repents, Luke 15:7, 10.

More rationalization and evil speaking against God Who knows All!

Robert Pate
August 7th, 2015, 03:54 PM
Why do you not believe in predestination? It is in scripture.

Romans 8:29 For those whom He foreknew, He predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, so that He might be the firstborn among many brothers.

Romans 8:30 And those whom He predestined, He also called; and those whom He called, He also justified; and those whom He justified, He also glorified.

Ephesians 1:5 He predestined us to adoption as sons to Himself through Jesus Christ according to the good pleasure of His will,

Ephesians 1:11 In Him also we have received an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His own will,


Where does it say that someone has been predestinated to heaven or to hell?

Robert Pate
August 7th, 2015, 04:03 PM
Maybe he doesnt? Hmm. Where does it say in the bible God doesn't know all things including the future? Are there any scriptures that do show God knows everything including the future?

God can and does blot things out of his mind.

"For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness and their sins and iniquities I will remember no more" Hebrews 8:12.

beloved57
August 7th, 2015, 04:38 PM
God can and does blot things out of his mind.

"For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness and their sins and iniquities I will remember no more" Hebrews 8:12.

That's not what that scripture says! More scripture twisting!

Robert Pate
August 8th, 2015, 07:23 AM
That's not what that scripture says! More scripture twisting!

Read it again. That is what the scripture says.

Where does it say that Adam lost his free will in the fall?

beloved57
August 8th, 2015, 07:24 AM
Read it again. That is what the scripture says.

Where does it say that Adam lost his free will in the fall?
More irrelevant comments!

Robert Pate
August 8th, 2015, 07:26 AM
More irrelevant comments!


You can't answer the question.

beloved57
August 8th, 2015, 07:29 AM
You can't answer the question.

Its a unlearned question! First of all you need to show me a scripture that says Adam had a freewill!

Robert Pate
August 8th, 2015, 12:58 PM
Its a unlearned question! First of all you need to show me a scripture that says Adam had a freewill!

Adam sinned against God.

What do you think that God made Adam to sin against him?

How far will you let your stupid religion go?

beloved57
August 8th, 2015, 05:23 PM
Adam sinned against God.

What do you think that God made Adam to sin against him?

How far will you let your stupid religion go?

Where's the scripture that says Adam had a freewill?

Robert Pate
August 9th, 2015, 08:25 AM
Where's the scripture that says Adam had a freewill?


All that can sin against God have a free will.

Common sense.

beloved57
August 9th, 2015, 08:32 AM
All that can sin against God have a free will.

Common sense.

That's because you don't have any scripture for that, so it's invalid!

Robert Pate
August 9th, 2015, 08:39 AM
That's because you don't have any scripture for that, so it's invalid!


I don't need any scripture for that.

God gave you a brain, try useing it.

beloved57
August 9th, 2015, 08:40 AM
I don't need any scripture for that.

God gave you a brain, try useing it.

You make plenty of comments, they are not supported by scripture!

Robert Pate
August 9th, 2015, 04:25 PM
You make plenty of comments, they are not supported by scripture!

HOGWASH!

You can't admit that you are wrong.

If Adam sinned against God he had a free will.

God does not create any programed robots.

beloved57
August 9th, 2015, 07:48 PM
HOGWASH!

You can't admit that you are wrong.

If Adam sinned against God he had a free will.

God does not create any programed robots.

You reject the Saving Death of Christ!

Robert Pate
August 10th, 2015, 07:40 AM
You reject the Saving Death of Christ!


When you are stumped you start making false accusations.

beloved57
August 10th, 2015, 07:49 AM
When you are stumped you start making false accusations.

Dont you believe and teach that people Christ died for shall wind up in hell for their sins in unbelief even though He died for them ? Yes or No ?

beloved57
August 10th, 2015, 07:51 AM
pate


If Adam sinned against God he had a free will.

What scripture says that ?

Robert Pate
August 10th, 2015, 07:55 AM
pate



What scripture says that ?

The term "Free Will" is not in the New Testament.

It is a term created by Calvinist.

j4jesus09
August 10th, 2015, 12:42 PM
God can and does blot things out of his mind.

"For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness and their sins and iniquities I will remember no more" Hebrews 8:12.

Yes, but isn't that God's choice if he blots something out. Does that mean he doesn't see the future though still? He makes so many statements of knowing something before it happens in the bible how can one miss it? If He knew the future of Adam and Eve, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Noah, David, Jeremiah, Isaiah, Samson, Jesus, Paul, and much more, ETC. What would hint that we are not in this list as well as every individual that ever existed. I mean does God have to spell it out by every individual that ever lived for us to get the point that he knows our future. You know the bible could not contain that much literature to spell that out so we have an account of so many lives already to learn from. And I just gave you the righteous lineup above. God knew the future of the wicked peoples too!

j4jesus09
August 10th, 2015, 12:43 PM
Read it again. That is what the scripture says.

Where does it say that Adam lost his free will in the fall?

Where does it say Adam had freewill?

j4jesus09
August 10th, 2015, 12:45 PM
I don't need any scripture for that.

God gave you a brain, try useing it.

Wait a minute. Did you just use the statement we don't need any scripture for that? Huh? How can you support your belief?

j4jesus09
August 10th, 2015, 12:49 PM
HOGWASH!

You can't admit that you are wrong.

If Adam sinned against God he had a free will.

God does not create any programed robots.

He asked you to show him scripture about Adam having freewill? That's a legit question. How does one have freewill because he sinned again God. If he had freewill don't you think Adam would have chose to obey God with his freewill? Why did he choose not to obey God with freewill?

Robert Pate
August 10th, 2015, 04:22 PM
He asked you to show him scripture about Adam having freewill? That's a legit question. How does one have freewill because he sinned again God. If he had freewill don't you think Adam would have chose to obey God with his freewill? Why did he choose not to obey God with freewill?


God does not create robots or puppets.

There is very little scripture about Gods relationship with Adam. Adam and Eve bought the devils lie that they would be as Gods, knowing good from evil, Genesis 3:5.

It was all about being like God. It was the same problem that Satan had. "I will be like the most high" Isaiah 14:12, 13, 14, 15. Adam and Eve like Satan wanted to be equal with God.

It is very apparent that they had a free will because they had the ability to sin. Anyone that has the ability to sin has a free will.

j4jesus09
August 11th, 2015, 11:58 AM
God does not create robots or puppets.

There is very little scripture about Gods relationship with Adam. Adam and Eve bought the devils lie that they would be as Gods, knowing good from evil, Genesis 3:5.

It was all about being like God. It was the same problem that Satan had. "I will be like the most high" Isaiah 14:12, 13, 14, 15. Adam and Eve like Satan wanted to be equal with God.

It is very apparent that they had a free will because they had the ability to sin. Anyone that has the ability to sin has a free will.

Did Adam have a fallen nature like us today? If Adam and Eve didn't have a fallen nature how or what made them sin? Doesn't our sinful ways come from our inherited sinful nature from Adam? Does God and Jesus have the ability to sin? I have the ability to cut my head off right now, but what keeps me from doing it is wisdom. Ability to do something does not mean wisdom or understanding is there. My child has the ability steal candy. I will tell him it's not good but if he sees some candy and no one is around he might just steal it. So the ability to do something is not free will. Just ability. Unless my child has wisdom and understanding then he will not steal candy.

Robert Pate
August 11th, 2015, 01:02 PM
Did Adam have a fallen nature like us today? If Adam and Eve didn't have a fallen nature how or what made them sin? Doesn't our sinful ways come from our inherited sinful nature from Adam? Does God and Jesus have the ability to sin? I have the ability to cut my head off right now, but what keeps me from doing it is wisdom. Ability to do something does not mean wisdom or understanding is there. My child has the ability steal candy. I will tell him it's not good but if he sees some candy and no one is around he might just steal it. So the ability to do something is not free will. Just ability. Unless my child has wisdom and understanding then he will not steal candy.

Adam and Eve sinned because they believed the devils lie that they would be like God.

Adam is our first father. We have his genes and his blood flowing through our veins. Jesus had the ability to sin. The devil tried to get him to sin by tempting him, but Jesus overcame the temptation. If your Child has the ability to sin and he does sin, then he did so by his own free will. We all have the ability to sin. God did not create any puppets or robots.

j4jesus09
August 11th, 2015, 02:21 PM
Adam and Eve sinned because they believed the devils lie that they would be like God.

Adam is our first father. We have his genes and his blood flowing through our veins. Jesus had the ability to sin. The devil tried to get him to sin by tempting him, but Jesus overcame the temptation. If your Child has the ability to sin and he does sin, then he did so by his own free will. We all have the ability to sin. God did not create any puppets or robots.

So how did Jesus live sinless and overcome sin that no other man ever did?

JFish123
August 11th, 2015, 02:26 PM
CALVINISM: May the odds be ever in your favor!

CALVINISM: I didn't choose the thug life. The thug life chose me.

Robert Pate
August 12th, 2015, 05:35 AM
So how did Jesus live sinless and overcome sin that no other man ever did?

He was NOT born after Adam. He was born after God.

j4jesus09
August 12th, 2015, 10:59 AM
He was NOT born after Adam. He was born after God.


Ok so since Adam was not born of God how could he NOT sin? You seem to think he could have made the right choice? Since what your saying which is biblical that Jesus was born of God what can man do good before He is born of God or without God?

Robert Pate
August 12th, 2015, 04:47 PM
Ok so since Adam was not born of God how could he NOT sin? You seem to think he could have made the right choice? Since what your saying which is biblical that Jesus was born of God what can man do good before He is born of God or without God?


Adam was created as innocent.

Innocent does not mean perfect. Adam was created as an individual with his own will. He was not part of the Godhead like Jesus.

God tested Adam and Adam failed.

No one can come to Christ unless the Holy Spirit draws them. You cannot just decide that you are going to become a Christian. You must be called by the Holy Spirit.

The Holy Spirit is in the world calling all to come to Christ. Some hear the Gospel and believe, some don't.

j4jesus09
August 13th, 2015, 08:37 AM
Adam was created as innocent.

Innocent does not mean perfect. Adam was created as an individual with his own will. He was not part of the Godhead like Jesus.

God tested Adam and Adam failed.

No one can come to Christ unless the Holy Spirit draws them. You cannot just decide that you are going to become a Christian. You must be called by the Holy Spirit.

The Holy Spirit is in the world calling all to come to Christ. Some hear the Gospel and believe, some don't.

Adam was created innocent. I agree.
He was not apart of the divine nature like Jesus. Agree
God tested Adam and Adam failed. Agree, but God had to test Adam so Adam could see, what we all see today? REDEMPTION, MERCY, FORGIVENESS, JESUS. What type of understanding do you think Adam had in the garden? LIMITED. Since we are talking about innocence the best way relate to is a child. A child may know something but not understand. A child can be innocent and know not to do something but not understand. You can deceive a child easily.They tend to believe so easily. That is what the serpent did. Because of a child's innocence they can do wrong and not know and maybe sometimes they do know. BUT once they do wrong then they grow to UNDERSTAND why they shouldn't do it. Does that mean a child shouldn't be tested though because they are INNOCENT. How will the get understanding? Is God unjust because He tested man? A test is given, if you fail, you can try again. Is this not mercy being displayed by God? One of his attributes? There is a grander purpose than you are allowing God's word to demonstrate. Peace

Totton Linnet
August 13th, 2015, 08:55 AM
Where does it say that someone has been predestinated to heaven or to hell?

He doesn't but it DOES say "whom He foreknew He also predestinated to be conformed to His Son....etc"

How can a faceless, unknown group of people be predestined? He KNEW us.

The great mistake is to jump from this to suppose nobody else is saved....or to suppose as Augustine and Calvin did that all others must be damned.

But slate them if you will at least they were not so foolish as to chuck the baby out with the bathwater.

Robert Pate
August 13th, 2015, 09:07 AM
Adam was created innocent. I agree.
He was not apart of the divine nature like Jesus. Agree
God tested Adam and Adam failed. Agree, but God had to test Adam so Adam could see, what we all see today? REDEMPTION, MERCY, FORGIVENESS, JESUS. What type of understanding do you think Adam had in the garden? LIMITED. Since we are talking about innocence the best way relate to is a child. A child may know something but not understand. A child can be innocent and know not to do something but not understand. You can deceive a child easily.They tend to believe so easily. That is what the serpent did. Because of a child's innocence they can do wrong and not know and maybe sometimes they do know. BUT once they do wrong then they grow to UNDERSTAND why they shouldn't do it. Does that mean a child shouldn't be tested though because they are INNOCENT. How will the get understanding? Is God unjust because He tested man? A test is given, if you fail, you can try again. Is this not mercy being displayed by God? One of his attributes? There is a grander purpose than you are allowing God's word to demonstrate. Peace


I agree that Adam was tested and failed.

What Adam should have done is that he should have gone to the Lord and said... "The serpent told Eve that if we ate of the tree in the midst of the garden we could become as God's". But he didn't. I think that there was a spiritual problem between Adam and God. Adam thought that God was denying him of something that he did not have, like spiritual equality with God or knowledge. Is this not the crux of religion? To be like Christ and to know all spiritual things. Satan said, "I will be like the most high". There is this spiritual pride thing in religion. The Pharisees were proud, arrogant and religious. I think that Adam had a pride problem and wanted more.

Robert Pate
August 13th, 2015, 09:19 AM
He doesn't but it DOES say "whom He foreknew He also predestinated to be conformed to His Son....etc"

How can a faceless, unknown group of people be predestined? He KNEW us.

The great mistake is to jump from this to suppose nobody else is saved....or to suppose as Augustine and Calvin did that all others must be damned.

But slate them if you will at least they were not so foolish as to chuck the baby out with the bathwater.

There is no individual predestination.

God does everything corporately, not individually.

Example: "Jesus has tasted death for every man" Hebrews 2:9.

"For whom he did foreknow" means that God knew that there would be people that would accept his Son Jesus Christ and that those who did, would be conformed to image of his Son Jesus Christ.

j4jesus09
August 13th, 2015, 09:25 AM
I agree that Adam was tested and failed.

What Adam should have done is that he should have gone to the Lord and said... "The serpent told Eve that if we ate of the tree in the midst of the garden we could become as God's". But he didn't. I think that there was a spiritual problem between Adam and God. Adam thought that God was denying him of something that he did not have, like spiritual equality with God or knowledge. Is this not the crux of religion? To be like Christ and to know all spiritual things. Satan said, "I will be like the most high". There is this spiritual pride thing in religion. The Pharisees were proud, arrogant and religious. I think that Adam had a pride problem and wanted more.

Now the statement what Adam should have done is gone to the Lord. Do you think that if he understood that he wouldn't have?
Okay, there was a spiritual problem? I agree there was a problem. Problem is Adam didn't have a freewill mechanism. He did what came NATURAL to him. He had a problem on the inside. A problem isn't a negative but can be worked into a positive.
How could Adam think God was denying him something if knew the TRUTH?
We should want to be like Christ and know all there is to know. What we cant know now we should just be content. This can be hard because we desire to understand more. There is nothing wrong with that but sometimes all we have is all we have right now. More will come later. I do think Adam was ENTICED into pride by the serpent. In my understanding the bible indicates Eve was deceived and so was Adam to. Both were deceived in different ways. No one who understands the truth will walk in deception. Some people hear of the truth and know about truth but to understand is different. Understanding is connected with wisdom and is not the same as just knowing something.

Proverbs 4:7
Wisdom is the principal thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding.

beloved57
August 13th, 2015, 09:29 AM
There is no individual predestination.

God does everything corporately, not individually.

Example: "Jesus has tasted death for every man" Hebrews 2:9.

"For whom he did foreknow" means that God knew that there would be people that would accept his Son Jesus Christ and that those who did, would be confomed to image of his Son Jesus Christ.

Denial of scripture Truth ! Eph 1:3-5

j4jesus09
August 13th, 2015, 09:36 AM
There is no individual predestination.

God does everything corporately, not individually.

Example: "Jesus has tasted death for every man" Hebrews 2:9.

"For whom he did foreknow" means that God knew that there would be people that would accept his Son Jesus Christ and that those who did, would be confomed to image of his Son Jesus Christ.

He does everything individually, and corporately. You might as well stop praying then if you think God doesn't hear just you. It's very personal and individual. No, my friend He has worked every individuals life out strategically and wonderfully. That is the beauty of it. Look at the prayers of David, and Jeremiah and many more. Friend, God is giving us these individuals for our learning. I mean God could list each and everyone's lives to see this but He has given us dozens to see the picture already. We don't need millions of people to see that God is working their lives out. If God gives us 10 people in the bible that he worked there lives out beforehand that is the foundation for us. God doesn't change!

Robert Pate
August 13th, 2015, 09:41 AM
Now the statement what Adam should have done is gone to the Lord. Do you think that if he understood that he wouldn't have?
Okay, there was a spiritual problem? I agree there was a problem. Problem is Adam didn't have a freewill mechanism. He did what came NATURAL to him. He had a problem on the inside. A problem isn't a negative but can be worked into a positive.
How could Adam think God was denying him something if knew the TRUTH?
We should want to be like Christ and know all there is to know. What we cant know now we should just be content. This can be hard because we desire to understand more. There is nothing wrong with that but sometimes all we have is all we have right now. More will come later. I do think Adam was ENTICED into pride by the serpent. In my understanding the bible indicates Eve was deceived and so was Adam to. Both were deceived in different ways. No one who understands the truth will walk in deception. Some people hear of the truth and know about truth but to understand is different. Understanding is connected with wisdom and is not the same as just knowing something.

Proverbs 4:7
Wisdom is the principal thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding.


It is not a natural thing for man to sin against his maker. The consequences of sin are terrible. Adam ruined his life and the lives of all of his descendants. God was trying to protect Adam from the wiles of the devil when he told Adam not to eat of the tree. When Adam ate of the tree he broke God's law and threw in with the devil. God had no choice but to break company with him and expell him from the garden.

Robert Pate
August 13th, 2015, 09:43 AM
Denial of scripture Truth ! Eph 1:3-5

God chose all of humanity in his Son Jesus Christ, Hebrews 2:9.

j4jesus09
August 13th, 2015, 09:56 AM
It is not a natural thing for man to sin against his maker. The consequences of sin are terrible. Adam ruined his life and the lives of all of his descendants. God was trying to protect Adam from the wiles of the devil when he told Adam not to eat of the tree. When Adam ate of the tree he broke God's law and threw in with the devil. God had no choice but to break company with him and expell him from the garden.

First comes the natural then the spiritual. Man is similar to animal in following his senses. The senses of man believed it was good to followed the serpent. If Adam was full of the Spirit of truth and understanding he would not have listened to the serpent. I like how God doesn't have a choice but we do. Unless, God makes choices before we make ours. Hmmmm.

beloved57
August 13th, 2015, 10:50 AM
God chose all of humanity in his Son Jesus Christ, Hebrews 2:9.

Invalid comment not supported by scripture!

Robert Pate
August 13th, 2015, 12:03 PM
He does everything individually, and corporately. You might as well stop praying then if you think God doesn't hear just you. It's very personal and individual. No, my friend He has worked every individuals life out strategically and wonderfully. That is the beauty of it. Look at the prayers of David, and Jeremiah and many more. Friend, God is giving us these individuals for our learning. I mean God could list each and everyone's lives to see this but He has given us dozens to see the picture already. We don't need millions of people to see that God is working their lives out. If God gives us 10 people in the bible that he worked there lives out beforehand that is the foundation for us. God doesn't change!


Salvation is corporately because God has reconciled the whole world unto himself by Jesus Christ, 2 Corinthians 5:19. All were included, not just some.

It is because of that, "Whosoever that shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved" Romans 10:13.

It is now that salvation becomes an individual thing. Those who hear the Gospel and believe are sealed with the Holy Spirit and are "In Christ" God sees them in Christ.

j4jesus09
August 13th, 2015, 12:16 PM
Salvation is corporately because God has reconciled the whole world unto himself by Jesus Christ, 2 Corinthians 5:19. All were included, not just some.

It is because of that, "Whosoever that shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved" Romans 10:13.

It is now that salvation becomes an individual thing. Those who hear the Gospel and believe are sealed with the Holy Spirit and are "In Christ" God sees them in Christ.

God has actively past, present and futuristically loved us my brother. He has always actively as already worked out our individual salvation. If you can't see God as individually working on you and I KNOWING you I before we knew him, then I would question who He is to you now? And what do you pray and talk to him about or how you were converted into the salvation of Jesus Christ. But however,what else can I say. Good discussion nevertheless. Blessings, love and peace toward you!

beloved57
August 13th, 2015, 12:50 PM
Salvation is corporately because God has reconciled the whole world unto himself by Jesus Christ, 2 Corinthians 5:19. All were included, not just some.

It is because of that, "Whosoever that shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved" Romans 10:13.

It is now that salvation becomes an individual thing. Those who hear the Gospel and believe are sealed with the Holy Spirit and are "In Christ" God sees them in Christ.

Invalid comments, those Christ died for He lived for and obeyed the Law for, so He believed for them! They inherit Eternal Life!

Totton Linnet
August 13th, 2015, 04:08 PM
The rejection of bible predestiny and election is the direct cause of people wobbling in their faith. It is through rejecting these precious truths that folks started believing they had to work their ticket to heaven, and the other doctrine of probation, that salvation can be lost comes directly from rejecting predestiny and election.

It is perfectly simple, if God is not the sole cause of our salvation, then the cause must be in us or partly in us......what treacherous ground that is.

Me I want to be on the Rock.

Robert Pate
August 13th, 2015, 04:21 PM
God has actively past, present and futuristically loved us my brother. He has always actively as already worked out our individual salvation. If you can't see God as individually working on you and I KNOWING you I before we knew him, then I would question who He is to you now? And what do you pray and talk to him about or how you were converted into the salvation of Jesus Christ. But however,what else can I say. Good discussion nevertheless. Blessings, love and peace toward you!

The Holy Spirit is in the world calling all to come to Christ and be saved. God will not and cannot impose salvation on anyone. If you don't answer the call you cannot be saved. This is why many are reprobates, they resisted the call and the Spirit gave up on them.

In a real sense God is absent from us, even from those who are Christians. That is unless you fabricate some sort of a mystical relationship. The reason that God is absent is because we still posses these sinful Adamic bodies. "To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord". So we don't live by sight, we live by faith, Romans 1:17.

Robert Pate
August 13th, 2015, 04:28 PM
The rejection of bible predestiny and election is the direct cause of people wobbling in their faith. It is through rejecting these precious truths that folks started believing they had to work their ticket to heaven, and the other doctrine of probation, that salvation can be lost comes directly from rejecting predestiny and election.

It is perfectly simple, if God is not the sole cause of our salvation, then the cause must be in us or partly in us......what treacherous ground that is.

Me I want to be on the Rock.


Our salvation is not based upon what we do or on what we have become.

Our salvation is based upon the doing and the dying of Jesus.

When Jesus entered into heaven, spiritually, we entered in with him. We are "In Christ" and Christ is in heaven, Ephesians 2:6.

Our salvation is in a very safe and secure place at the right hand of God in heaven.

beloved57
August 13th, 2015, 06:37 PM
Our salvation is not based upon what we do or on what we have become.

Our salvation is based upon the doing and the dying of Jesus.

When Jesus entered into heaven, spiritually, we entered in with him. We are "In Christ" and Christ is in heaven, Ephesians 2:6.

Our salvation is in a very safe and secure place at the right hand of God in heaven.

You teach that millions upon millions for whom Christ lived and died shall wind up in Hell for their sins in unbelief!

Robert Pate
August 14th, 2015, 12:20 PM
You teach that millions upon millions for whom Christ lived and died shall wind up in Hell for their sins in unbelief!

Only a blind fool would believe that God forces belief in his Son Jesus Christ.

What glory does that bring to God?

Why would the angels in heaven rejoice over that? Luke 15:7, 10.

beloved57
August 14th, 2015, 12:51 PM
Only a blind fool would believe that God forces belief in his Son Jesus Christ.

What glory does that bring to God?

Why would the angels in heaven rejoice over that? Luke 15:7, 10.
Who said anything about forcing belief in Christ? Christ has believed for them that He lived and died for, He obeyed the Law of God for! How can someone who has obeyed Gods Law perfectly be a unbeliever?

Robert Pate
August 14th, 2015, 01:53 PM
Who said anything about forcing belief in Christ? Christ has believed for them that He lived and died for, He obeyed the Law of God for! How can someone who has obeyed Gods Law perfectly be a unbeliever?

Calvinism is imposed salvation.

According to your Satanic leader God forces some to believe and then damns the rest to hell.

Some God you got there.

beloved57
August 14th, 2015, 01:59 PM
Calvinism is imposed salvation.

According to your Satanic leader God forces some to believe and then damns the rest to hell.

Some God you got there.
You don't believe that Christ obeyed the Law of God for them He lived and died for do you? That is why by His only one obedience they are made righteous Rom 5:19!

Robert Pate
August 14th, 2015, 03:34 PM
You don't believe that Christ obeyed the Law of God for them He lived and died for do you? That is why by His only one obedience they are made righteous Rom 5:19!


There are many, many, scriptures that say that Jesus died for the sins of the whole world, here are just a couple, 1 John 2:2, 1 John 4:14.

What good is your Bible if you don't believe it? Why don't you just throw it in the trash?

beloved57
August 14th, 2015, 03:42 PM
There are many, many, scriptures that say that Jesus died for the sins of the whole world, here are just a couple, 1 John 2:2, 1 John 4:14.

What good is your Bible if you don't believe it? Why don't you just throw it in the trash?
The world He redeemed, for them Christ died for He lived for, obeyed the Law for, have believed for! Now does the whole world without exception believe in Christ? Yes or No?

beloved57
August 14th, 2015, 03:43 PM
There are many, many, scriptures that say that Jesus died for the sins of the whole world, here are just a couple, 1 John 2:2, 1 John 4:14.

What good is your Bible if you don't believe it? Why don't you just throw it in the trash?

Since when did you believe or understand those verses?

Bright Raven
August 14th, 2015, 03:46 PM
Since when did you believe or understand those verses?

Way before you!

beloved57
August 14th, 2015, 03:48 PM
Way before you!

I see no evidence of it, from him or you!

Dialogos
August 14th, 2015, 04:04 PM
Robert,

Here is your modus operandi.

1. Author a post that misrepresents Calvinism

2. Summarily condemn Calvinism and Calvinists based on that misrepresentation.

3. Receive clarifications, question, criticisms and sound arguments against your position.

4. Ignore them all.

5. When logical and scriptural arguments that refute your claims become too numerous to ignore, move on and create another thread that misrepresents Calvinism.

6. Rinse and repeat.

Robert Pate
August 14th, 2015, 07:44 PM
Robert,

Here is your modus operandi.

1. Author a post that misrepresents Calvinism

2. Summarily condemn Calvinism and Calvinists based on that misrepresentation.

3. Receive clarifications, question, criticisms and sound arguments against your position.

4. Ignore them all.

5. When logical and scriptural arguments that refute your claims become too numerous to ignore, move on and create another thread that misrepresents Calvinism.

6. Rinse and repeat.


The apostle Paul and the Gospel of Jesus Christ refutes Calvinism.

Your to blind to see it.

Totton Linnet
August 15th, 2015, 05:46 AM
Calvinism is imposed salvation.

According to your Satanic leader God forces some to believe and then damns the rest to hell.

Some God you got there.

He imposed manhood upon you
He made wheat to be wheat
sheep to be sheep
doves to be doves

But tares will always be tares
goats will always be goats
vipers are vipers still

You are trying to usurp God by insisting that tares and wheat are the same etc.

It is this crooked thinking which has filled the church with the world.

Totton Linnet
August 15th, 2015, 05:47 AM
Robert,

Here is your modus operandi.

1. Author a post that misrepresents Calvinism

2. Summarily condemn Calvinism and Calvinists based on that misrepresentation.

3. Receive clarifications, question, criticisms and sound arguments against your position.

4. Ignore them all.

5. When logical and scriptural arguments that refute your claims become too numerous to ignore, move on and create another thread that misrepresents Calvinism.

6. Rinse and repeat.

Yes his premise is false.

Robert Pate
August 15th, 2015, 07:13 AM
He imposed manhood upon you
He made wheat to be wheat
sheep to be sheep
doves to be doves

But tares will always be tares
goats will always be goats
vipers are vipers still

You are trying to usurp God by insisting that tares and wheat are the same etc.

It is this crooked thinking which has filled the church with the world.


You have a warped, perverted view of God's holy, just, merciful, righteous nature.

The God that you worship is like the God that the Muslims worship, he does not exist. He exist only in your warped, perverted mind.

God is no respector of persons, he loves all of humanity. Not some of humanity. If you would believe the Bible you would know that.

"God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son" John 3:16.

beloved57
August 15th, 2015, 08:21 AM
You have a warped, perverted view of God's holy, just, merciful, righteous nature.

The God that you worship is like the God that the Muslims worship, he does not exist. He exist only in your warped, perverted mind.

God is no respector of persons, he loves all of humanity. Not some of humanity. If you would believe the Bible you would know that.

"God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son" John 3:16.

You teach that God punishes the Righteous, which makes Him Unjust!

Robert Pate
August 15th, 2015, 03:43 PM
You teach that God punishes the Righteous, which makes Him Unjust!

Do you have some eggs?

beloved57
August 15th, 2015, 03:46 PM
Do you have some eggs?

You teach God is Unjust !

Robert Pate
August 15th, 2015, 05:17 PM
You teach God is Unjust !


Go haunt someone elses thread.

Nanja
August 15th, 2015, 06:11 PM
Go haunt someone elses thread.


You repeatedly open new threads on Calvinism because the Gospel Truths of TULIP,
which you know are supported by the scriptures, serve to continually obsess / haunt you !

~~~~~

popsthebuilder
August 16th, 2015, 05:57 AM
Is predestination the same as preordained, or destined? If it is then I must conclude that it is a truth as all things are predestined in our life and experiences prior to our conception in my opinion. Thanks.

beloved57
August 16th, 2015, 08:31 AM
Is predestination the same as preordained, or destined? If it is then I must conclude that it is a truth as all things are predestined in our life and experiences prior to our conception in my opinion. Thanks.

Do you believe that people who are going to Hell, that God predestinated it prior to their conception?

popsthebuilder
August 16th, 2015, 12:11 PM
Beloved57,
That is a great question!

Going to hell or Heaven is the only thing that, technically is not predestined, as it is a result of the gift of our free will and henceforth great potential/ responsability. Thank you.

On a slightly different note; if there is a ballance of opposites that equates to infinite energy, as all is, then the extreme opposites of Heaven and hell are somewhat incomprehendable in there awe and force. Or I guess in the case of the negative; the lack there of.

Thanks.

Robert Pate
August 16th, 2015, 01:16 PM
You repeatedly open new threads on Calvinism because the Gospel Truths of TULIP,
which you know are supported by the scriptures, serve to continually obsess / haunt you !

~~~~~

Please show me one scripture where God has predestinated someone to heaven or to hell.

TULIP is not supported by the Bible. In order to believe in Calvinism you have to assume that the scriptures are saying some things that they may not be saying at all.

The word "Predestinate" only appears in the New Testament 4 times. The words "Faith" and "Believe" appear hundreds of times.

If predestination was a true doctrine the Bible would be full of it. There is little to nothing.

Robert Pate
August 16th, 2015, 01:19 PM
Is predestination the same as preordained, or destined? If it is then I must conclude that it is a truth as all things are predestined in our life and experiences prior to our conception in my opinion. Thanks.

Then you must believe that you are a puppet or a robot.

popsthebuilder
August 16th, 2015, 01:25 PM
Then you must believe that you are a puppet or a robot.
Free will negates predestination by the will of God and His gift. This effectively removes any possibility of us acting similar to an inanimate object. Thank you.

Robert Pate
August 16th, 2015, 01:30 PM
Free will negates predestination by the will of God and His gift. This effectively removes any possibility of us acting similar to an inanimate object. Thank you.

An inanimate object is a puppet or a robot, of which we are not of.

Nanja
August 16th, 2015, 03:56 PM
Please show me one scripture where God has predestinated someone to heaven or to hell.

TULIP is not supported by the Bible. In order to believe in Calvinism you have to assume that the scriptures are saying some things that they may not be saying at all.

The word "Predestinate" only appears in the New Testament 4 times. The words "Faith" and "Believe" appear hundreds of times.

If predestination was a true doctrine the Bible would be full of it. There is little to nothing.



All whom God had Chosen in His Son Jesus Christ before the foundation of the world
were predestinated to receive the Adoption of Sons: An Eternal Inheritance!

Eph. 1:4,11 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world,
that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: (v.5) Having predestinated us
unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself according to the good pleasure of his will
(v.11) In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to
the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will.

These Chosen Sons of God were predestinated to an Eternal Inheritance.
That speaks of them forever being with Christ in Heaven!


But all the rest are the seed of the serpent:

John 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do.
He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth,
because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own:
for he is a liar, and the father of it.

These are the goats which will hear Christ say:

Mat. 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me,
ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels.

The same are the Vessels of Wrath fitted for destruction Rom. 9:22!

These are those the devil sowed in the world Mat. 13:38-39.
Their Eternal Destiny is Hell.

~~~~~

Grosnick Marowbe
August 16th, 2015, 04:07 PM
All whom God had Chosen in His Son Jesus Christ before the foundation of the world
were predestinated to receive the Adoption of Sons: An Eternal Inheritance!

Eph. 1:4,11 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world,
that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: (v.5) Having predestinated us
unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself according to the good pleasure of his will
(v.11) In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to
the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will.

These Chosen Sons of God were predestinated to an Eternal Inheritance.
That speaks of them forever being with Christ in Heaven!


But all the rest are the seed of the serpent:

John 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do.
He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth,
because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own:
for he is a liar, and the father of it.

These are the goats which will hear Christ say:

Mat. 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me,
ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels.

The same are the Vessels of Wrath fitted for destruction Rom. 9:22!

These are those the devil sowed in the world Mat. 13:38-39.
Their Eternal Destiny is Hell.

~~~~~

Your "Mentor" is B57, another crazy "Hyper-Calvinist!"

Robert Pate
August 16th, 2015, 05:15 PM
All whom God had Chosen in His Son Jesus Christ before the foundation of the world
were predestinated to receive the Adoption of Sons: An Eternal Inheritance!

Eph. 1:4,11 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world,
that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: (v.5) Having predestinated us
unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself according to the good pleasure of his will
(v.11) In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to
the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will.

These Chosen Sons of God were predestinated to an Eternal Inheritance.
That speaks of them forever being with Christ in Heaven!


But all the rest are the seed of the serpent:

John 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do.
He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth,
because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own:
for he is a liar, and the father of it.

These are the goats which will hear Christ say:

Mat. 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me,
ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels.

The same are the Vessels of Wrath fitted for destruction Rom. 9:22!

These are those the devil sowed in the world Mat. 13:38-39.
Their Eternal Destiny is Hell.

~~~~~

There is NOTHING in your post that proves predestination.

God chose all of humanity in his Son Jesus Christ before the foundation of the world.

You pick scriptures that you think prove predestination, but they don't.

Cedarbay
August 16th, 2015, 06:10 PM
Your "Mentor" is B57, another crazy "Hyper-Calvinist!"How do you define hyper-Calvinist? Calvinists accuse certain other Calvinists of this as well. Do you have experience with this? I forget whether you are former Calvinist.

Nanja
August 16th, 2015, 06:22 PM
Your "Mentor" is B57, another crazy "Hyper-Calvinist!"


It comforts you greatly to say all kinds of evil against God's true servants,
yet because of it, God has Promised them a great reward Mat. 5:11-12!

However you, and so many others with blinded minds 2 Cor. 4:3-4,
don't believe all the scriptures, but pick and choose only the ones
which are palatable to your man-made, made-up false teachings
that support belief in your false gospel of works Gal 1:8.

Eph. 2:8-9 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves:
it is the gift of God: (v.9) Not of works, lest any man should boast.

2 Tim. 1:9
Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works,
but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began

Any profession of religion that teaches that one's Salvation is in any way dependent
on what the sinner does is a false religion.

A prime example is your repetitive boasting of how
you have placed your faith in Christ to have Eternal Life. :nono:

Salvation by Grace is exclusively for the Election of Grace Rom. 11:5-6.
And Faith, a Gift and Fruit of the Spirit Eph. 2:8; Gal. 3:22, is exclusively given to God's Elect Titus 1:1.

"A man can receive nothing, except it be given him from heaven." John 3:27!

So much for your confidence in the flesh: Your own "freewill" choosing!

~~~~~

popsthebuilder
August 16th, 2015, 08:44 PM
All whom God had Chosen in His Son Jesus Christ before the foundation of the world
were predestinated to receive the Adoption of Sons: An Eternal Inheritance!

Eph. 1:4,11 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world,
that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: (v.5) Having predestinated us
unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself according to the good pleasure of his will
(v.11) In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to
the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will.

These Chosen Sons of God were predestinated to an Eternal Inheritance.
That speaks of them forever being with Christ in Heaven!


But all the rest are the seed of the serpent:

John 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do.
He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth,
because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own:
for he is a liar, and the father of it.

These are the goats which will hear Christ say:

Mat. 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me,
ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels.

The same are the Vessels of Wrath fitted for destruction Rom. 9:22!

These are those the devil sowed in the world Mat. 13:38-39.
Their Eternal Destiny is Hell.

~~~~~
That in no way means that the rest are going to hell.

All whom God had Chosen in His Son Jesus Christ before the foundation of the world
were predestinated to receive the Adoption of Sons: An Eternal Inheritance!

Eph. 1:4,11 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world,
that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: (v.5) Having predestinated us
unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself according to the good pleasure of his will
(v.11) In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to
the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will.

These Chosen Sons of God were predestinated to an Eternal Inheritance.
That speaks of them forever being with Christ in Heaven!


But all the rest are the seed of the serpent:

John 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do.
He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth,
because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own:
for he is a liar, and the father of it.

These are the goats which will hear Christ say:

Mat. 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me,
ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels.

The same are the Vessels of Wrath fitted for destruction Rom. 9:22!

These are those the devil sowed in the world Mat. 13:38-39.
Their Eternal Destiny is Hell.

~~~~~

popsthebuilder
August 16th, 2015, 08:48 PM
It comforts you greatly to say all kinds of evil against God's true servants,
yet because of it, God has Promised them a great reward Mat. 5:11-12!

However you, and so many others with blinded minds 2 Cor. 4:3-4,
don't believe all the scriptures, but pick and choose only the ones
which are palatable to your man-made, made-up false teachings
that support belief in your false gospel of works Gal 1:8.

Eph. 2:8-9 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves:
it is the gift of God: (v.9) Not of works, lest any man should boast.

2 Tim. 1:9
Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works,
but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began

Any profession of religion that teaches that one's Salvation is in any way dependent
on what the sinner does is a false religion.

A prime example is your repetitive boasting of how
you have placed your faith in Christ to have Eternal Life. :nono:

Salvation by Grace is exclusively for the Election of Grace Rom. 11:5-6.
And Faith, a Gift and Fruit of the Spirit Eph. 2:8; Gal. 3:22, is exclusively given to God's Elect Titus 1:1.

"A man can receive nothing, except it be given him from heaven." John 3:27!

So much for your confidence in the flesh: Your own "freewill" choosing!

~~~~~
Salvation is through selfless Faith and the selfless works that stem from that Faith under God, with all praise to God.

All whom God had Chosen in His Son Jesus Christ before the foundation of the world
were predestinated to receive the Adoption of Sons: An Eternal Inheritance!

Eph. 1:4,11 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world,
that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: (v.5) Having predestinated us
unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself according to the good pleasure of his will
(v.11) In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to
the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will.

These Chosen Sons of God were predestinated to an Eternal Inheritance.
That speaks of them forever being with Christ in Heaven!


But all the rest are the seed of the serpent:

John 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do.
He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth,
because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own:
for he is a liar, and the father of it.

These are the goats which will hear Christ say:

Mat. 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me,
ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels.

The same are the Vessels of Wrath fitted for destruction Rom. 9:22!

These are those the devil sowed in the world Mat. 13:38-39.
Their Eternal Destiny is Hell.

~~~~~

Robert Pate
August 17th, 2015, 05:41 AM
It comforts you greatly to say all kinds of evil against God's true servants,
yet because of it, God has Promised them a great reward Mat. 5:11-12!

However you, and so many others with blinded minds 2 Cor. 4:3-4,
don't believe all the scriptures, but pick and choose only the ones
which are palatable to your man-made, made-up false teachings
that support belief in your false gospel of works Gal 1:8.

Eph. 2:8-9 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves:
it is the gift of God: (v.9) Not of works, lest any man should boast.

2 Tim. 1:9
Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works,
but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began

Any profession of religion that teaches that one's Salvation is in any way dependent
on what the sinner does is a false religion.

A prime example is your repetitive boasting of how
you have placed your faith in Christ to have Eternal Life. :nono:

Salvation by Grace is exclusively for the Election of Grace Rom. 11:5-6.
And Faith, a Gift and Fruit of the Spirit Eph. 2:8; Gal. 3:22, is exclusively given to God's Elect Titus 1:1.

"A man can receive nothing, except it be given him from heaven." John 3:27!

So much for your confidence in the flesh: Your own "freewill" choosing!

~~~~~


You have a wrong view of God.

The God of the Bible..."So loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son, that WHOSOEVER believes in him should not perish, but have everlasting life" John 3:16.

Nanja
August 17th, 2015, 06:56 AM
You have a wrong view of God.

The God of the Bible..."So loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son, that WHOSOEVER believes in him should not perish, but have everlasting life" John 3:16.


It is God's Will that your mind / understanding is darkened;
walking in the vanity of your mind Eph. 4:17.

Eph. 4:18: Having the understanding darkened,
being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them,
because of the blindness of their heart

The Truth of the scriptures remain hidden from you:
They are Spiritual 1 Cor. 2:13, but you remain carnal.

2 Cor. 4:3-4 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:
(v.4) In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them
which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ,
who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

~~~~~

Robert Pate
August 17th, 2015, 07:34 AM
It is God's Will that your mind / understanding is darkened;
walking in the vanity of your mind Eph. 4:17.

Eph. 4:18: Having the understanding darkened,
being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them,
because of the blindness of their heart

The Truth of the scriptures remain hidden from you:
They are Spiritual 1 Cor. 2:13, but you remain carnal.

2 Cor. 4:3-4 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:
(v.4) In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them
which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ,
who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

~~~~~


You think that I am unsaved, don't you?

You think that I am unsaved because I don't believe in Calvinism.

You apparently believe that you are saved because you believe in Calvinism and anyone that doesn't believe in Calvinism is lost.

So there is a contradition, because you keep saying that there is nothing we can do to save ourselves, yet you believe that you are saved because you believe in Calvinism.

Is not that something that you do?

Nanja
August 17th, 2015, 02:42 PM
You think that I am unsaved, don't you?

You think that I am unsaved because I don't believe in Calvinism.

You apparently believe that you are saved because you believe in Calvinism and anyone that doesn't believe in Calvinism is lost.

So there is a contradition, because you keep saying that there is nothing we can do to save ourselves, yet you believe that you are saved because you believe in Calvinism.

Is not that something that you do?


There is absolutely nothing, no action whatsoever, we can do to become saved, period!

But Believing the Truth is the evidence that one is Saved, because belief / faith in the Truth
is a fruit and gift of the Spirit given in the New Birth. So before one is Born of God he is unable to come to Truth,
or do anything else that pleases God Rom. 8:7-8.


2 Thes. 2:13-14
But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because
God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
(v.14) Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.


Now for those who do not believe in the Gospel of God's Electing Grace (Acts 20:24; 2 Tim. 1:9):

2Thes. 2:10-12
And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth,
that they might be saved. (v.11) And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
(v.12) That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.


Calvinism's doctrinal Truths of TULIP, are founded strictly upon the Word of God.
If you don't believe all of the Word of God you are in a state of unbelief and apostasy.

~~~~~

Robert Pate
August 17th, 2015, 04:28 PM
There is absolutely nothing, no action whatsoever, we can do to become saved, period!

But Believing the Truth is the evidence that one is Saved, because belief / faith in the Truth
is a fruit and gift of the Spirit given in the New Birth. So before one is Born of God he is unable to come to Truth,
or do anything else that pleases God Rom. 8:7-8.


2 Thes. 2:13-14
But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because
God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
(v.14) Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.


Now for those who do not believe in the Gospel of God's Electing Grace (Acts 20:24; 2 Tim. 1:9):

2Thes. 2:10-12
And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth,
that they might be saved. (v.11) And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
(v.12) That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.


Calvinism's doctrinal Truths of TULIP, are founded strictly upon the Word of God.
If you don't believe all of the Word of God you are in a state of unbelief and apostasy.

~~~~~

Did you not chose Calvinism? That is something that you did.

Nanja
August 17th, 2015, 05:26 PM
Did you not chose Calvinism? That is something that you did.


You mean "choose"?

Absolutely not, is was not my choice.

None of us has a choice whether we believe the Truth or not: It is all of God's choosing!

2 Thes. 2:13-14
But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because
God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
(v.14) Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

~~~~~

Grosnick Marowbe
August 17th, 2015, 05:29 PM
You mean "choose"?

Absolutely not, is was not my choice.

None of us has a choice whether we believe the Truth or not: It is all of God's choosing!

2 Thes. 2:13-14
But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because
God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
(v.14) Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

~~~~~

You seek to spread the "false doctrine" of Hyper-Calvinism. You
people believe that God creates all sin. You also believe God
choose certain people to save (The Elect) and the rest were
chosen for eternal damnation. Those are lies!

Grosnick Marowbe
August 17th, 2015, 05:31 PM
B57 and Nanja are "Hyper-Calvinist Fanatics."

Nanja
August 17th, 2015, 05:53 PM
B57 and Nanja are "Hyper-Calvinist Fanatics."


Instead of your obnoxious regurgitation of the same old, same old...

Bring some pertinent scriptures from the Word of God to the table to substantiate your careless refutation.

~~~~~

Grosnick Marowbe
August 17th, 2015, 05:57 PM
Instead of your obnoxious regurgitation of the same old, same old...

Bring some pertinent scriptures from the Word of God to the table to substantiate your careless refutation.

~~~~~

It's not careless. It's a warning for posters not to listen to "Hyper-Calvinist
Fanatics." You guys interpret Scripture different than those who wish to read
and study the truth's of Scripture.

Nanja
August 17th, 2015, 06:00 PM
It's not careless. It's a warning for posters not to listen to "Hyper-Calvinist
Fanatics." You guys interpret Scripture different than those who wish to read
and study the truth's of Scripture.


Failed!

Again...Bring some pertinent scriptures from the Word of God to the table to substantiate your careless refutation.

~~~~~

beloved57
August 18th, 2015, 04:24 AM
You have a wrong view of God.

The God of the Bible..."So loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son, that WHOSOEVER believes in him should not perish, but have everlasting life" John 3:16.

She has told you right!

beloved57
August 18th, 2015, 04:25 AM
You seek to spread the "false doctrine" of Hyper-Calvinism. You
people believe that God creates all sin. You also believe God
choose certain people to save (The Elect) and the rest were
chosen for eternal damnation. Those are lies!

Those are Truths of scripture you don't believe or understand!

popsthebuilder
August 18th, 2015, 06:25 AM
You mean "choose"?

Absolutely not, is was not my choice.

None of us has a choice whether we believe the Truth or not: It is all of God's choosing!

2 Thes. 2:13-14
But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because
God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
(v.14) Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

~~~~~
Bs. What is free will but choice and a gift from God?

Robert Pate
August 18th, 2015, 06:52 AM
You mean "choose"?

Absolutely not, is was not my choice.

None of us has a choice whether we believe the Truth or not: It is all of God's choosing!

2 Thes. 2:13-14
But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because
God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
(v.14) Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

~~~~~

Of course it was your choice to become a Calvinist.

Do you believe that you were born a Calvinist?

You apparently made a choice. You chose to believe in Calvinism. It was something that you did.

beloved57
August 18th, 2015, 10:36 AM
Of course it was your choice to become a Calvinist.

Do you believe that you were born a Calvinist?

You apparently made a choice. You chose to believe in Calvinism. It was something that you did.

God chooses His People to believe the truth 2Thess 2:13 ! That's part of their salvation!

Robert Pate
August 18th, 2015, 10:55 AM
God chooses His People to believe the truth 2Thess 2:13 ! That's part of their salvation!


Then why did Jesus say...

"Unless YOU believe that I am he, YOU will die in YOUR sins"

The scripture is about YOU believing. Not some one believing for you.

beloved57
August 18th, 2015, 10:57 AM
Then why did Jesus say...

"Unless YOU believe that I am he, YOU will die in YOUR sins"

The scripture is about YOU believing. Not some one believing for you.
Read my threads! But God chose who believes the Truth 2 Thessalonians 2:13 !

Robert Pate
August 18th, 2015, 11:03 AM
Read my threads! But God chose who believes the Truth 2 Thessalonians 2:13 !


It is God's plan for all to be saved through the preaching of the Gospel, 1 Timothy 2:4.

beloved57
August 18th, 2015, 11:05 AM
It is God's plan for all to be saved through the preaching of the Gospel, 1 Timothy 2:4.

God chose who would believe the Gospel 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14!

Robert Pate
August 18th, 2015, 11:12 AM
God chose who would believe the Gospel 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14!

So your Calvinst God says... Eney, meeny, miney, moe.

I think I might save some and let the rest go.

sick!

Nanja
August 18th, 2015, 05:15 PM
So your Calvinst God says... Eney, meeny, miney, moe.

I think I might save some and let the rest go.

sick!



Let it be known: You have committed blasphemy against the One True Living God.


Dan. 4:35
And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing: and he doeth according to his will
in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand,
or say unto him, What doest thou?


Eph. 1:11
In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated
according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will


1 John 4:15
And this is the confidence that we have in him, that, if we ask any thing according to his will, he heareth us


Job 23:13
For he performeth the thing that is appointed for me:
and many such things are with him.

~~~~~

beloved57
August 18th, 2015, 05:17 PM
So your Calvinst God says... Eney, meeny, miney, moe.

I think I might save some and let the rest go.

sick!

What does 2 Thess 2:13-14 say ? You are showing up-most contempt to God and His sacred word !

Grosnick Marowbe
August 18th, 2015, 05:18 PM
Let it be known: You have committed blasphemy against the One True Living God.


Dan. 4:35
And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing: and he doeth according to his will
in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand,
or say unto him, What doest thou?


Eph. 1:11
In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated
according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will


1 John 4:15
And this is the confidence that we have in him, that, if we ask any thing according to his will, he heareth us


Job 23:13
For he performeth the thing that is appointed for me:
and many such things are with him.

~~~~~

Don't be ridiculous. At least, try not to be?

Grosnick Marowbe
August 18th, 2015, 05:20 PM
Nanja and B57 are "Absurd Hyper-Calvinists" who believe God
CREATES all sin. Don't listen to these false teachers.

beloved57
August 18th, 2015, 05:21 PM
Be it known: You have committed blasphemy against the One True Living God.


Dan. 4:35
And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing: and he doeth according to his will
in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand,
or say unto him, What doest thou?


Eph. 1:11
In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated
according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will


1 John 4:15
And this is the confidence that we have in him, that, if we ask any thing according to his will, he heareth us


Job 23:13
For he performeth the thing that is appointed for me:
and many such things are with him.

~~~~~

he does it daily, it shall not be well for him in the day of Judgment ! Ecc 8:13

But it shall not be well with the wicked, neither shall he prolong his days, which are as a shadow; because he feareth not before God.

Grosnick Marowbe
August 18th, 2015, 05:23 PM
God chose who would believe the Gospel 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14!

God's Grace is open to all who will place their faith in Christ. You
and Nanja are false teachers, preaching a false doctrine.

Grosnick Marowbe
August 18th, 2015, 05:24 PM
he does it daily, it shall not be well for him in the day of Judgment ! Ecc 8:13

But it shall not be well with the wicked, neither shall he prolong his days, which are as a shadow; because he feareth not before God.

You're a nutty hyper-Calvinist. I wouldn't doubt if you
have mental issues as well.

Grosnick Marowbe
August 18th, 2015, 05:27 PM
B57 and Nanja go after Robert like some kind of wild animals. They're
vicious and wicked in my opinion.

beloved57
August 18th, 2015, 05:28 PM
You're a nutty hyper-Calvinist. I wouldn't doubt if you
have mental issues as well.

You will soon find out ! In the mean time Matt 5:10-11

10 Blessed are they which are persecuted for righteousness' sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

11 Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake.

Grosnick Marowbe
August 18th, 2015, 05:28 PM
They follow "Another Gospel."

Grosnick Marowbe
August 18th, 2015, 05:29 PM
You will soon find out ! In the mean time Matt 5:10-11

10 Blessed are they which are persecuted for righteousness' sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

11 Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake.

Those verses were speaking to the members of the House of Israel.
You're as ignorant as you are pathetic.

Grosnick Marowbe
August 18th, 2015, 05:30 PM
If I had my own forum, you and Nanja would be one of those banned forever!

Grosnick Marowbe
August 18th, 2015, 05:31 PM
I don't like false doctrine and you two spread it like wildfire.

Grosnick Marowbe
August 18th, 2015, 05:33 PM
You two are "Social Vampires."

beloved57
August 18th, 2015, 05:35 PM
Those verses were speaking to the members of the House of Israel.
You're as ignorant as you are pathetic.

False comment, it was speaking to the followers of Christ about others who are the followers of Christ, those persecuted for Christ's sake !

It says nothing about speaking to the members of the house of israel, you just made that up !

Nanja
August 18th, 2015, 05:36 PM
Don't be ridiculous. At least, try not to be?


Nanja

Dan. 4:35
And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing: and he doeth according to his will
in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand,
or say unto him, What doest thou?


Eph. 1:11
In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated
according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will


1 John 4:15
And this is the confidence that we have in him, that, if we ask any thing according to his will, he heareth us


Job 23:13
For he performeth the thing that is appointed for me:
and many such things are with him.

~~~~~



Do you believe those scriptures are the Word of God?


I do 2 Tim. 3:16!

~~~~~

Grosnick Marowbe
August 18th, 2015, 05:37 PM
False comment, it was speaking to the followers of Christ about others who are the followers of Christ, those persecuted for Christ's sake !

It says nothing about speaking to the members of the house of israel, you just made that up !

Matthew 15:24 states: "But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel."

Grosnick Marowbe
August 18th, 2015, 05:39 PM
Later, Paul was given the "Grace Message" (Paul's Gospel) to take
to the Gentiles. That Message was given to Paul by the "Ascended
Christ."