PDA

View Full Version : Love your enemies



Jacob
July 29th, 2015, 02:07 PM
If you have any enemies, you are to love them.

Matthew 5:44 NASB - 44 "But I say to you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you,

Luke 6:27, 35 NASB - 27 "But I say to you who hear, love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, ... 35 "But love your enemies, and do good, and lend, expecting nothing in return; and your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High; for He Himself is kind to ungrateful and evil men.

Perhaps the love of God in your life will be that you no longer have any enemies.

God's command to love your neighbor knows no boundary.

Zeke
July 29th, 2015, 09:14 PM
Yet the flesh in Romans seven gets an unloving response from Paul who was under its guidance and will power. Why, if love your enemies is the goal?

Jacob
July 29th, 2015, 09:52 PM
Yet the flesh in Romans seven gets an unloving response from Paul who was under its guidance and will power. Why, if love your enemies is the goal?I am not sure what your question is about Romans 7. I believe you have a misconception of it.

As for the goal being love, we have this.

1 Timothy 1:5-11 NASB - 5 But the goal of our instruction is love from a pure heart and a good conscience and a sincere faith. 6 For some men, straying from these things, have turned aside to fruitless discussion, 7 wanting to be teachers of the Law, even though they do not understand either what they are saying or the matters about which they make confident assertions. 8 But we know that the Law is good, if one uses it lawfully, 9 realizing the fact that law is not made for a righteous person, but for those who are lawless and rebellious, for the ungodly and sinners, for the unholy and profane, for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers 10 and immoral men and homosexuals and kidnappers and liars and perjurers, and whatever else is contrary to sound teaching, 11 according to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, with which I have been entrusted.

There is no instruction to hate your enemy. There is not even instruction to have an enemy. But if you do, you are to love them.

Matthew 5:43-44 NASB - 43 "You have heard that it was said, 'YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR and hate your enemy.' 44 "But I say to you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you,

You should be on God's side. Then love those who are, and love others as well. This is by your actions.

Galatians 6:10 NASB - 10 So then, while we have opportunity, let us do good to all people, and especially to those who are of the household of the faith.

So, or rather... love all (do good to all) and know that those who love God... we ought especially to do good to them.

This says nothing of ever doing anything evil to those who are not believers.

aikido7
February 23rd, 2019, 09:36 PM
It’s run-of-the-mill humans who hate their enemies, nurse revenge fantasies and do evil to others.
Jesus is the ultimate disclosure of God on earth.
He was not "just a human being."

Bradley D
February 24th, 2019, 03:51 PM
If a Christian does not love their enemy what makes them different from others.

Love for Enemies

“You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, that you may be children of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? And if you greet only your own people, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect" (Matthew 5:43-48).

Bradley D
February 24th, 2019, 03:53 PM
If a Christian does not love their enemy what makes them different from others.

Love for Enemies

“You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, that you may be children of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? And if you greet only your own people, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect" (Matthew 5:43-48).

Jacob
February 24th, 2019, 06:09 PM
It’s run-of-the-mill humans who hate their enemies, nurse revenge fantasies and do evil to others.
Jesus is the ultimate disclosure of God on earth.
He was not "just a human being."

What's that?

It is not good to hate your enemies, nurse revenge fantasies, or do evil to others.

If you have seen Jesus you have seen the Father.

Jesus is the only begotten Son of God.

Jacob
February 24th, 2019, 06:12 PM
If a Christian does not love their enemy what makes them different from others.

Love for Enemies

“You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, that you may be children of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? And if you greet only your own people, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect" (Matthew 5:43-48).

Does anyone else love their enemies? Are you saying that love of enemies is what sets Christians apart from others?

ok doser
February 24th, 2019, 07:18 PM
was Christ loving when He said "it would be better for them to have a large millstone hung around their neck "?

way 2 go
February 24th, 2019, 07:32 PM
was Christ loving when He said "it would be better for them to have a large millstone hung around their neck "?
yes


Luk 12:47 And that servant who knew his master's will but did not get ready or act according to his will, will receive a severe beating.
Luk 12:48 But the one who did not know, and did what deserved a beating, will receive a light beating. Everyone to whom much was given, of him much will be required, and from him to whom they entrusted much, they will demand the more.

Mat 11:23 And you, Capernaum, will you be exalted to heaven? You will be brought down to Hades. For if the mighty works done in you had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day.
Mat 11:24 But I tell you that it will be more tolerable on the day of judgment for the land of Sodom than for you."

Mar 14:21 For the Son of Man goes as it is written of him, but woe to that man by whom the Son of Man is betrayed! It would have been better for that man if he had not been born."

way 2 go
February 24th, 2019, 07:34 PM
Perhaps the love of God in your life will be that you no longer have any enemies.



Joh 15:18 "If the world hates you, know that it has hated me before it hated you.
Joh 15:19 If you were of the world, the world would love you as its own; but because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, therefore the world hates you.

Jacob
February 24th, 2019, 07:42 PM
Joh 15:18 "If the world hates you, know that it has hated me before it hated you.
Joh 15:19 If you were of the world, the world would love you as its own; but because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, therefore the world hates you.

Are your enemies the world?

Jacob
February 24th, 2019, 07:43 PM
was Christ loving when He said "it would be better for them to have a large millstone hung around their neck "?

Yes. He told the truth so yes.

way 2 go
February 24th, 2019, 08:02 PM
Are your enemies the world?

do you understand Jesus statement "of the world" in the context below?

Joh 15:18 (https://biblia.com/bible/nkjv/John%2015.18) "If the world hates you, know that it has hated me before it hated you.
Joh 15:19 (https://biblia.com/bible/nkjv/John%2015.19) If you were of the world, the world would love you as its own; but because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, therefore the world hates you.

Jacob
February 24th, 2019, 08:08 PM
do you understand Jesus statement "of the world" in the context below?

Joh 15:18 (https://biblia.com/bible/nkjv/John%2015.18) "If the world hates you, know that it has hated me before it hated you.
Joh 15:19 (https://biblia.com/bible/nkjv/John%2015.19) If you were of the world, the world would love you as its own; but because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, therefore the world hates you.

I believe that I do, yes.

aikido7
February 25th, 2019, 02:13 PM
What's that?

It is not good to hate your enemies, nurse revenge fantasies, or do evil to others.

If you have seen Jesus you have seen the Father.

Jesus is the only begotten Son of God.

These are examples of theology and dogma. They are faith statements that testify to the importance of Jesus and when we take them literally we forfeit their epic claim and truth.

Jacob
February 25th, 2019, 02:22 PM
These are examples of theology and dogma. They are faith statements that testify to the importance of Jesus and when we take them literally we forfeit their epic claim and truth.
It is possible to say things that have meaning.

aikido7
February 25th, 2019, 02:35 PM
Yes. He told the truth so yes.

This verse clearly shows Jesus was a hypocrite.
Otherwise, how does the verse stack up against Jesus’ God as a God of Mercy, infinite grace and a God of compassion.

This passage was clearly written by a later writer who unwittingly placed his own revenge and violence, revealed in his own writings.

I use a corollary in separating the authentic “voice print” of Jesus from the theological utterances placed into his mouth by later followers after his death:

Jesus did not speak after he died.
Sayings that make sense before the Easter events do not make sense after Easter.
Any words or deeds that have been changed is due to the gospel authors' sayings own creativity.
Anything that points to a Gentile context is under suspicion.

So, too, these guidelines...

--Offensiveness such as Matthew 13:44
--Differences such as that found in Mark 2:18–22
--Growth such as the addition of Matt 5:34–37 to an original saying of Jesus found in Matt 5:34
--Coherence [with Jesus’ orignal mission and his vocabulary.

I am not so irritatively arrogant to assume I am absolustely correct about anything, nor can I absolsutely prove anything to BE correct.

Common sense tells me it is indeed difficult to know what exactly said and done 2,000 years ago.

Jacob
February 25th, 2019, 02:50 PM
This verse clearly shows Jesus was a hypocrite.
Otherwise, how does the verse stack up against Jesus’ God as a God of Mercy, infinite grace and a God of compassion.

This passage was clearly written by a later writer who unwittingly placed his own revenge and violence, revealed in his own writings.

I use a corollary in separating the authentic “voice print” of Jesus from the theological utterances placed into his mouth by later followers after his death:

Jesus did not speak after he died.
Sayings that make sense before the Easter events do not make sense after Easter.
Any words or deeds that have been changed is due to the gospel authors' sayings own creativity.
Anything that points to a Gentile context is under suspicion.

So, too, these guidelines...

--Offensiveness such as Matthew 13:44
--Differences such as that found in Mark 2:18–22
--Growth such as the addition of Matt 5:34–37 to an original saying of Jesus found in Matt 5:34
--Coherence [with Jesus’ orignal mission and his vocabulary.

I am not so irritatively arrogant to assume I am absolustely correct about anything, nor can I absolsutely prove anything to BE correct.

Common sense tells me it is indeed difficult to know what exactly said and done 2,000 years ago.

This has to do with how you read what you do. The way in which you read it or what you see when you do. I do not have any problem with anything that Jesus has said.

genuineoriginal
February 25th, 2019, 02:57 PM
If you have any enemies, you are to love them.

Matthew 5:44 NASB - 44 "But I say to you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you,

Luke 6:27, 35 NASB - 27 "But I say to you who hear, love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, ... 35 "But love your enemies, and do good, and lend, expecting nothing in return; and your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High; for He Himself is kind to ungrateful and evil men.

Perhaps the love of God in your life will be that you no longer have any enemies.

God's command to love your neighbor knows no boundary.
If we are to love our enemy as we love our neighbor, then it is our duty to rebuke our enemy and not allow them to continue living in sin.

Leviticus 19:17-18
17 Thou shalt not hate thy brother in thine heart: thou shalt in any wise rebuke thy neighbour, and not suffer sin upon him.
18 Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I am the Lord.

Jacob
February 25th, 2019, 03:16 PM
If we are to love our enemy as we love our neighbor, then it is our duty to rebuke our enemy and not allow them to continue living in sin.

Leviticus 19:17-18
17 Thou shalt not hate thy brother in thine heart: thou shalt in any wise rebuke thy neighbour, and not suffer sin upon him.
18 Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I am the Lord.

Your enemy should be loved by you, fellow Israelite, countryman, or otherwise.

aikido7
February 25th, 2019, 03:36 PM
This has to do with how you read what you do. The way in which you read it or what you see when you do. I do not have any problem with anything that Jesus has said.

I don’t either. But you and I have a major difference of opinion.

I think it is essential to separate Jesus’ authentic voice from the theology that was deliberately placed into his mouth decades after the Easter event.

aikido7
February 25th, 2019, 03:46 PM
If we are to love our enemy as we love our neighbor, then it is our duty to rebuke our enemy and not allow them to continue living in sin..

A positive example that shows the wisdom of loving one’s enemies in an actual, historical setting always works. A “rebuke” never does fundamentally change one’s behavior.

In fact, the rebuke is a precursor for violence, revenge and war.
Parents with children know this too late. Political argument demonstrates the abject failure of this approach as well.

“Love your enemies.”
Jesus either said this or he didn’t.
We cannot have it both ways.

God does not intend for us to hate our enemies.
On the contrary, he commands us to love our enemies and to pray for those who persecute us.

No one in history had ever said that before.

No one.

This teaching is the most uniquely Christian teaching in all the Bible.

Jacob
February 25th, 2019, 03:56 PM
I don’t either. But you and I have a major difference of opinion.

I think it is essential to separate Jesus’ authentic voice from the theology that was deliberately placed into his mouth decades after the Easter event.

I don't even recognize an Easter event, but I recognize all of Jesus' words even after He rose from the dead.

aikido7
February 25th, 2019, 04:01 PM
I don't even recognize an Easter event, but I recognize all of Jesus' words even after He rose from the dead.

People don’t talk after they are dead.
Jesus’ words after he was exalted were written by the gospel authors, decades after the crucifixion.

I believe in the resurrection. I just don’t believe it had anything to do with Jesus’ body.

The underlying meaning of the resurrection is the truth that after his death, Jesus’ followers were still convinced that his Power and Presence were still available to them.

They still “walked with Jesus” and “talked with Jesus.”

Just as we do today.

Jacob
February 25th, 2019, 04:10 PM
People don’t talk after they are dead.
Jesus’ words after he was exalted were written by the gospel authors, decades after the crucifixion.

I believe in the resurrection. I just don’t believe it had anything to do with Jesus’ body.

The underlying meaning of the resurrection is the truth that after his death, Jesus’ followers were still convinced that his Power and Presence were still available to them.

They still “walked with Jesus” and “talked with Jesus.”

Just as we do today.
He, Jesus, physically, bodily, rose from the dead.

genuineoriginal
February 25th, 2019, 04:14 PM
A “rebuke” never does fundamentally change one’s behavior.
We must still give the rebuke in order to provide them the chance to change their behavior.
They are responsible for whether they change their behavior after the rebuke.


Ezekiel 33:7-9
7 So thou, O son of man, I have set thee a watchman unto the house of Israel; therefore thou shalt hear the word at my mouth, and warn them from me.
8 When I say unto the wicked, O wicked man, thou shalt surely die; if thou dost not speak to warn the wicked from his way, that wicked man shall die in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at thine hand.
9 Nevertheless, if thou warn the wicked of his way to turn from it; if he do not turn from his way, he shall die in his iniquity; but thou hast delivered thy soul.


God does not intend for us to hate our enemies.
According to scripture, failing to rebuke someone for their sin is hate.

genuineoriginal
February 25th, 2019, 04:20 PM
People don’t talk after they are dead.
Jesus’ words after he was exalted were written by the gospel authors, decades after the crucifixion.

I believe in the resurrection. I just don’t believe it had anything to do with Jesus’ body.
It appears that your faith is in vain.

1 Corinthians 15:13-14
13 But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen:
14 And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain.

The underlying meaning of the resurrection is the truth that after his death, Jesus’ followers were still convinced that his Power and Presence were still available to them.

They still “walked with Jesus” and “talked with Jesus.”

Just as we do today.
People physically saw Jesus between the crucifixion and the ascension, which we are not able to do today.

1 Corinthians 15:3-7
3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:
5 And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve:
6 After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep.
7 After that, he was seen of James; then of all the apostles.

aikido7
February 25th, 2019, 05:03 PM
It appears that your faith is in vain.

Folllowing Jesus and having a personal relationship is an example of faith in the God revealed in Jesus.

“...Your FAITH has made you whole....”
--Mark 10:52

This truth was spoken LONG before Jesus was hanged on a cross.



People physically saw Jesus between the crucifixion and the ascension, which we are not able to do today..

People were SAID to have seen Jesus.

Careful readers of ancient history are aware that there was no such thing as objective journalism or history in those times.

The very idea would have been impossible to conceive of.

https://www.press.uchicago.edu/ucp/books/book/chicago/D/bo5971512.html

ok doser
February 25th, 2019, 05:05 PM
Folllowing Jesus ...


you don't follow Jesus, you follow a jesus you've constructed to suit yourself

aikido7
February 25th, 2019, 05:24 PM
you don't follow Jesus, you follow a jesus you've constructed to suit yourself
Everyone who thinks or writes about Jesus constructs a Jesus for him/herself.

Even the gospel writers did this.
John saw Jesus as the sinless, unblemished Lamb of God sacrificed for the world.
John was so committed to this vision that he asserted Jesus died on the Day of Preparation instead of on Passover as the other three writers asserted.
John also crafted an anti-Semitic Jesus because he wanted a Jesus who would denounce the Jews--simply because at that time the Jesus people were being kicked out of the synagogues.

Today’s believers have constructed a Jesus who is bigoted, full of revenge, anti-gay, anti-abortion and pro-war.

ok doser
February 25th, 2019, 05:38 PM
you don't follow Jesus, you follow a jesus you've constructed to suit yourself


(yes, i do)



:thumb:

aikido7
February 25th, 2019, 05:44 PM
I have constructed a Jesus based on his own teachings.
I have never arrogantly asserted that I am perfectly right about this.

We all look at reality through our own window.
We all see the world differently.

What do YOU see?


“Aren’t the clouds beautiful? They look like big balls of cotton… I could just lie here all day, and watch them drift by,” said Lucy. "If you use your imagination, you can see lots of things in the cloud formations… What do you think you see, Linus?“

"Well, those clouds up there look like the map of the British Honduras on the Caribbean… That cloud up there looks a little like the profile of Thomas Eakins, the famous painter and sculptor… And that group of clouds over there gives me the impression of the stoning of Stephen… I can see the apostle Paul standing there to one side…"

"Uh huh… That’s very good… What do you see in the clouds, Charlie Brown?"

"Well, I was going to say I saw a ducky and a horsie, but I changed my mind!”

genuineoriginal
February 25th, 2019, 05:59 PM
I have constructed a Jesus based on his own teachings.
Like this one?

Matthew 5:17-19
17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

I have never arrogantly asserted that I am perfectly right about this.
And yet you constantly complain about people choosing to do and teach the commandments that Jesus is talking about?

aikido7
February 25th, 2019, 06:26 PM
Like this one?

Matthew 5:17-19
17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

And yet you constantly complain about people choosing to do and teach the commandments that Jesus is talking about?

I see those passages as coming from the later community of believers. To me it reflects a controversy in the early Christian community over whether the Law was still binding on Christians.

If you read it carefully you might notice that the most trivial regulation [“one iota”] must be observed.

This passage, however, clearly cuts against the grain of Jesus’ passionate mission and his character.

It nullifies Jesus’relaxed sentiments against the Law--doing God’s will instead of following the letter.
It also speaks against his love ethic.

The one time in the New Testament that Jesus speaks about the Ten Commandments he only mentions those commandments that are foundational for all the world’s faiths.

Remember, there are three different versions of the Ten Commandments in the Bible. Actually four, since Moses deliberately broke an early version.

ok doser
February 25th, 2019, 06:33 PM
I see those passages as coming from the later community of believers.


that's convenient

genuineoriginal
February 25th, 2019, 06:44 PM
If you read it carefully you might notice that the most trivial regulation [“one iota”] must be observed.

This passage, however, clearly cuts against the grain of Jesus’ passionate mission and his character.
If you believe that, then you don't know much about Jesus.

It nullifies Jesus’relaxed sentiments against the Law--doing God’s will instead of following the letter.
Your idea about Jesus having relaxed sentiments against the Law are very strange.

Matthew 5:27-29
27 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery:
28 But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.
29 And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.
The Pharisees tried to excuse looking at married women with lust by blaming it on their eyes, but Jesus said you can't even use that excuse to avoid being guilty.

Remember, there are three different versions of the Ten Commandments in the Bible. Actually four, since Moses deliberately broke an early version.
Remember, I already corrected you on that by proving that there is only one version of the Ten Commandments, the original one.

aikido7
February 25th, 2019, 06:57 PM
If you believe that, then you don't know much about Jesus.

Your idea about Jesus having relaxed sentiments against the Law are very strange.

Matthew 5:27-29
27 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery:
28 But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.
29 And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.
The Pharisees tried to excuse looking at married women with lust by blaming it on their eyes, but Jesus said you can't even use that excuse to avoid being guilty.

Remember, I already corrected you on that by proving that there is only one version of the Ten Commandments, the original one.

Noted.

I value context and history over men’s theology.
It’s much more important for me to come to grips with the Jesus who has been buried beneath the many layers of human interpretation that have obscured him.

Theology is important--don’t get me wrong.
But it is a human meaning that is overlayed over real or metaphorsized events.

Bradley D
February 27th, 2019, 03:51 PM
Does anyone else love their enemies? Are you saying that love of enemies is what sets Christians apart from others? That is part of being a Christian yes. If you read the words of Jesus one will find much more.

Jacob
February 27th, 2019, 04:05 PM
That is part of being a Christian yes. If you read the words of Jesus one will find much more.
Very good. It is good to know that you read the words of Jesus.

aikido7
March 6th, 2019, 04:48 PM
Yet the flesh in Romans seven gets an unloving response from Paul who was under its guidance and will power. Why, if love your enemies is the goal?

There are different traditions throughout the Bible.
Paul has a different tradition.
Matthew and Luke have another.

The Bible records both.