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pqmomba8
July 28th, 2015, 01:24 PM
...or you're going to burn FOREVER if you are ot / don't do good...

were my thoughts today after arguing with a "G-d fearing" man (orthodox Jew at work) that without G-d, there is "no way you can have a good moral compass". (What absurdity...I told him to go and re-read the Hebrew Bible, especially, Leviticus, Deutoronamy and Exodus. Some pretty immoral stuff there being commanded by G-d.)

Anyway, I came away with the following thought:

Nothing could be lamer than appealing to a being's vanity to "do the right thing" to avoid eternal punishment.

Case closed.:o

turbosixx
July 28th, 2015, 01:47 PM
...or you're going to burn FOREVER if you are ot / don't do good...

were my thoughts today after arguing with a "G-d fearing" man (orthodox Jew at work) that without G-d, there is "no way you can have a good moral compass". (What absurdity...I told him to go and re-read the Hebrew Bible, especially, Leviticus, Deutoronamy and Exodus. Some pretty immoral stuff there being commanded by G-d.)

Anyway, I came away with the following thought:

Nothing could be lamer than appealing to a being's vanity to "do the right thing" to avoid eternal punishment.

Case closed.:o

I hope your living life to the fullest and getting the most out of it you can.

serpentdove
July 28th, 2015, 01:49 PM
...or you're going to burn FOREVER if you are ot / don't do good...

were my thoughts today after arguing with a "G-d fearing" man (orthodox Jew at work) that without G-d, there is "no way you can have a good moral compass". (What absurdity...I told him to go and re-read the Hebrew Bible, especially, Leviticus, Deutoronamy and Exodus. Some pretty immoral stuff there being commanded by G-d.)

Anyway, I came away with the following thought:

Nothing could be lamer than appealing to a being's vanity to "do the right thing" to avoid eternal punishment.

Case closed.:oYou are your own god (Ge 3:5). :idunno: Unfortunately, this is isn't your universe. :juggle: You don't rule and reign (Eze 18:4). Don't know what your idol is (Ex 20:17). Don't care. Knock yourself out (Re 22:11). :devil: Payday someday (Ga 6:7). :burnlib:

serpentdove
July 28th, 2015, 01:56 PM
I hope your living life to the fullest and getting the most out of it you can.

Whatever he loves more than God--I hope he has it until it comes out of his nostrils (Nu 11:20, Mk 7:21, 22). http://orig13.deviantart.net/28fe/f/2011/091/4/3/438dc087a48ecbdff01bf8f8f6d4ed30-d3czqgb.gif

Jesus is coming soon (1 Thess 5:2). :jump: Good news for us. Bad news for them. :Popcorn: We get relief (2 Thess 1:7). :straight: They get retribution (2 Thess 1:8). :burnlib:

pqmomba8
July 28th, 2015, 02:01 PM
Love the non-responses! But would love to hear from someone who has actually put some coherent thought into the subject matter.

turbosixx
July 28th, 2015, 04:33 PM
Love the non-responses! But would love to hear from someone who has actually put some coherent thought into the subject matter.

That was my first thought. If you do not believe in God, then I assume you do not foresee an afterlife. If there is no afterlife then your whole existence is while you breath. I would think that if this life is all I had I would make it the best I could.

If there is no God, the existence of this earth in relation to the universe and our life will be like a match that is struck and burns for a short while then goes out.

serpentdove
July 28th, 2015, 05:08 PM
Love the non-responses! But would love to hear from someone who has actually put some coherent thought into the subject matter.:dizzy:

"Love your suit." ~ Hannibal Lecter, Silence of the Lambs Matt. 25:46

serpentdove
July 28th, 2015, 05:12 PM
"...If you do not believe in God, then I assume you do not foresee an afterlife." He does (Eccl 3:11). :rolleyes:


"If there is no afterlife then your whole existence is while you breath. I would think that if this life is all I had I would make it the best I could." What else do they have? Heb 11:25


"If there is no God, the existence of this earth in relation to the universe and our life will be like a match that is struck and burns for a short while then goes out." Something like that (Jas 4:14).

PureX
July 28th, 2015, 05:16 PM
Doing "good" because of a fear of punishment is really just selfishness pretending to be good. Spiritually, it's meaningless. But doing "good" because you believe in the value of goodness: you believe that doing good multiplies the good in the world, and makes the lives of everyone, better; this is true goodness. And this is spiritually honest and uplifting.

It's why God doesn't punish us and force us to do good. "He" knows it's spiritually meaningless unless we do it for it's own sake.

Lon
July 28th, 2015, 05:37 PM
...or you're going to burn FOREVER if you are ot / don't do good...

were my thoughts today after arguing with a "G-d fearing" man (orthodox Jew at work) that without G-d, there is "no way you can have a good moral compass". (What absurdity...I told him to go and re-read the Hebrew Bible, especially, Leviticus, Deutoronamy and Exodus. Some pretty immoral stuff there being commanded by G-d.)

Anyway, I came away with the following thought:

Nothing could be lamer than appealing to a being's vanity to "do the right thing" to avoid eternal punishment.

Case closed.:o

I think you were just irritated. "Be good" is a fine statement. It is not a way to earn God's grace. I think "because I said so" or "because you are supposed to and know it" are fine reasons for behaving. I even think "because you'll go to jail (punishment)" is fine.

As far as Christianity, we don't obey to 'get heaven.'



After that, I'd correct a few of your summations about scripture but will that for another time. I think it simply enough to say that I don't believe you are correct regarding those Old Testament books concerning OT Jews. I believe for them, the prescription was correct.

serpentdove
July 28th, 2015, 05:39 PM
"Doing "good" because of a fear of punishment is really just selfishness pretending to be good."
Wanting not to go to hell doesn't cut it. Those who do not love the Lord and trust in him aren't going to be with him in eternity (Mk 12:30, 1 Co 16:22).


"Spiritually, it's meaningless."
It is. Don't bother. He'll have all of you or he'll have none of you (Ex 20:5). Oprah learned that God is jealous and walked away from him.



"...God doesn't punish us and force us to do good. "He" knows it's spiritually meaningless unless we do it for it's own sake."
Thanks Santa. :rolleyes: We do right because it is right (Re 15:3)--we live to please him not man (Ac 5:29, Mt 5:16).

aikido7
July 28th, 2015, 05:42 PM
"...so many tears of blood
have fell around us
'cause you can't always do what you are told."

--John Prine
"The Hobo Song."

Bradley D
July 28th, 2015, 09:13 PM
"For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God" (1Cor. 1:18).

heir
July 28th, 2015, 09:28 PM
...or you're going to burn FOREVER if you are ot / don't do good...That's not the word of reconciliation. It's an other gospel and it's not the gospel of YOUR salvation.

If you're really interested in the truth on the matter, I'll tell you. You're no good, you can't do good and what you do has no bearing on your salvation.

Romans 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

Romans 3:11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

Romans 3:12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

So how are you going to get to God? The answer is, you can't (Romans 3:23 KJV), but the good news is, that Christ got through to God for you (Romans 4:25 KJV, Romans 6:23 KJV, 2 Corinthians 5:19-21 KJV. 1 Timothy 2:5-6 KJV)!

You can be saved from the wrath to come by trusting the Lord believing what Christ accomplished on the cross and God raising Him from the dead was for you!

Paul declares the good news that Christ died for our sins and that He was buried and rose again the third day as the means by which we are saved.

1 Corinthians 15:1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;

1 Corinthians 15:2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.

1 Corinthians 15:3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;

1 Corinthians 15:4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

All you have to do is believe He did it for you and the Spirit will put His seal upon you (done deal)

Ephesians 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

Ephesians 1:14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

Nick M
July 28th, 2015, 09:40 PM
"For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God" (1Cor. 1:18).

Irony example 1

Jamie Gigliotti
July 28th, 2015, 09:50 PM
...or you're going to burn FOREVER if you are ot / don't do good...

were my thoughts today after arguing with a "G-d fearing" man (orthodox Jew at work) that without G-d, there is "no way you can have a good moral compass". (What absurdity...I told him to go and re-read the Hebrew Bible, especially, Leviticus, Deutoronamy and Exodus. Some pretty immoral stuff there being commanded by G-d.)

Anyway, I came away with the following thought:

Nothing could be lamer than appealing to a being's vanity to "do the right thing" to avoid eternal punishment.

Case closed.:o

Those connected to the body of Christ do good because of the love and Grace of Our Father and Lord Jesus Christ and the gift of The Holy Spirit in our lives. It is through grace that His goodness comes through us as we submit to Him. No one can be good apart from Him. The rules and fear of retribution were incapable of producing good in us. Only the presence of God through faith and Grace. God doesn't want to punish us. He loves us! But if the gift of Himself is rejected, He has no choice. He can not go against His Holiness.

glorydaz
July 28th, 2015, 09:56 PM
That's not the word of reconciliation. It's an other gospel and it's not the gospel of YOUR salvation.

If you're really interested in the truth on the matter, I'll tell you. You're no good, you can't do good and what you do has no bearing on your salvation.

Romans 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

Romans 3:11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

Romans 3:12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

So how are you going to get to God? The answer is, you can't (Romans 3:23 KJV), but the good news is, that Christ got through to God for you (Romans 4:25 KJV, Romans 6:23 KJV, 2 Corinthians 5:19-21 KJV. 1 Timothy 2:5-6 KJV)!

You can be saved from the wrath to come by trusting the Lord believing what Christ accomplished on the cross and God raising Him from the dead was for you!

Paul declares the good news that Christ died for our sins and that He was buried and rose again the third day as the means by which we are saved.

1 Corinthians 15:1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;

1 Corinthians 15:2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.

1 Corinthians 15:3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;

1 Corinthians 15:4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

All you have to do is believe He did it for you and the Spirit will put His seal upon you (done deal)

Ephesians 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

Ephesians 1:14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

Indeed. :thumb:

There is no better news than salvation is a gift of God.


Eph. 2:8-9 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.

God hates a proud heart...therefore, boasting is excluded. All glory goes to our Lord and Saviour.


Romans 3:27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.

Selaphiel
July 29th, 2015, 12:52 AM
...or you're going to burn FOREVER if you are ot / don't do good...

were my thoughts today after arguing with a "G-d fearing" man (orthodox Jew at work) that without G-d, there is "no way you can have a good moral compass". (What absurdity...I told him to go and re-read the Hebrew Bible, especially, Leviticus, Deutoronamy and Exodus. Some pretty immoral stuff there being commanded by G-d.)

Anyway, I came away with the following thought:

Nothing could be lamer than appealing to a being's vanity to "do the right thing" to avoid eternal punishment.

Case closed.:o

I would agree that that is a horrible motivation for doing good. In fact, it is not doing good at all. You are not supposed to do good out of fear or for a selfish desire for well being, one is supposed to do good for the sake of neighbor and God. The object of goodness is the neighbor, and for the sake of God (that is God as the good itself, that is the telos of all good things).

Doing "good" for the sake of avoiding punishment only reveals a deeper sin in mankind, namely that of ego or pride. This is the sinful structure of the soul referred to as the incurvatus in se ("curved inwards towards itself") from Augustine, also very important to Martin Luther. These are topics that are discussed at great length throughout the entirety of Christian theology, and I assume in Islamic and Jewish theology as well.

Not having a moral compass due to being an atheist is also false of course, at least it is contrary to pretty much any form of classical Christian theology. Moral compasses do not come from faith, they come from human nature.

Granted, one could agree with Nietzsche and claim that what much of what we call moral (in Judeo-Christian cultures at least) are contingent on a theistic ontology. That is, they are values that depend on, in the sense of being anchored in, a particular ontology and by implication anthropology. However, for a theist who believes in the theistic ontology of Christian theology to claim that atheists have no moral compass is absurd and erroneous.

pqmomba8
July 29th, 2015, 06:58 AM
Thank you Selaphiel, PureX and Lo for your tangible contribution to the subject matter of this thread. You actullyhad valid arument that c e "gdigested" in the contet of this discussion. Everyone else - eh, just a egurgitation of the "same old, same old.

Anywy, let me put t o you this way: if the threat the eternal damnation was removed (I know, it's a hyothetica, but just bear with me), how many of the "pious" Christians (or Muslims or Jews, etc.) would still be actually, sincerely, worshipping heir G-d? YOu guys ever think about THAT? :)

Selaphiel
July 29th, 2015, 07:19 AM
Anywy, let me put t o you this way: if the threat the eternal damnation was removed (I know, it's a hyothetica, but just bear with me), how many of the "pious" Christians (or Muslims or Jews, etc.) would still be actually, sincerely, worshipping heir G-d? YOu guys ever think about THAT? :)

You are most welcome, the question you ask is very important.

I do not believe in eternal damnation myself, I lean towards an universalism of apokatastasis.

There are probably quite a few that have a relationship to God based on fear and self-security. That is a very problematic relationship to have to the divine, probably not very healthy either.

This is why I think Luther said (or rather reminded us of) something important. If salvation is by grace, that is not of our merit, then we are truly free to love both God and neighbor. There would be nothing to gain for one self by doing good deeds. Those deeds would then assume their proper object, namely the neighbor and truly be in the service of God. Serving God purely out of fear and self-interest only serves to illumine what Christianity considers to be the root problem in man, namely pride.

Fear of God as a virtue is often misunderstood. It is not meant to be fear as in terror, but rather fear as in awe. But Christians must immediately qualify what we are in awe of, not of might and terror, but of infinite love, forgiveness and humility. Paul speaks of the wisdom that is foolishness to the world, that wisdom is Christ crucified. The glory of God is the crucified Son, the one who forgives even those who tortures and kills him.

This should be obvious to anyone who knows about Christianity. Sadly, it quickly diminishes and returns to worship of God as Emperor writ large, rather than crucified slave.

bybee
July 29th, 2015, 08:09 AM
When I am afraid I am thinking of my safety and what can I do to save myself?
This totally negates the Cross.

pqmomba8
July 29th, 2015, 09:06 AM
You are most welcome, the question you ask is very important.

I do not believe in eternal damnation myself, I lean towards an universalism of apokatastasis.

There are probably quite a few that have a relationship to God based on fear and self-security. That is a very problematic relationship to have to the divine, probably not very healthy either.

This is why I think Luther said (or rather reminded us of) something important. If salvation is by grace, that is not of our merit, then we are truly free to love both God and neighbor. There would be nothing to gain for one self by doing good deeds. Those deeds would then assume their proper object, namely the neighbor and truly be in the service of God. Serving God purely out of fear and self-interest only serves to illumine what Christianity considers to be the root problem in man, namely pride.

Fear of God as a virtue is often misunderstood. It is not meant to be fear as in terror, but rather fear as in awe. But Christians must immediately qualify what we are in awe of, not of might and terror, but of infinite love, forgiveness and humility. Paul speaks of the wisdom that is foolishness to the world, that wisdom is Christ crucified. The glory of God is the crucified Son, the one who forgives even those who tortures and kills him.

This should be obvious to anyone who knows about Christianity. Sadly, it quickly diminishes and returns to worship of God as Emperor writ large, rather than crucified slave.

Thank you Selaphiel! Now, this is something I can "work" with, understand and appreciate. My disillusion with belief in G-d and religion in general was partly due to my observation of the "G-d fearing flock" being more concerned about "pleasing the Boss" than actually doing good for goodness's sake. (Oh, and assuming that somehow, religions had the monopoly on morals. Uggghhh.)

Back in the day, when I belied in G-d (or at least wanted to), I studied with the Rabbi in my Hebrew school and then went to take many religion classes (and therefore read the Torah, Bible, Q'Uran, Bghagawat Ghita, etc.) to understand why the faith in the Divine was so important. Instead, it turned my into an agnostic and then, an atheist. Just seemed like all these religions were basically re-hashing of the mythology that came before them, just in a different "flavor." And the whole supernatural thing - I just don't "buy" any of it.

But it was mostly the premise that "Please the Boss or you will be tortured for eternity" that REALLY turned me off.

Anyway, thanks again Selaphiel. (BTW, you speak in sagely prose..... :)

Shalom!

Ben Masada
July 29th, 2015, 10:03 AM
...and much less with an eye in the reward in the after life. Only dogs do good for a treat which is akin to rewards. And as the Law is concerned, Jews do good because it is a Jewish thing to do.

pqmomba8
July 29th, 2015, 10:58 AM
...and much less with an eye in the reward in the after life. Only dogs do good for a treat which is akin to rewards. And as the Law is concerned, Jews do good because it is a Jewish thing to do.

Amen. (So do Buddhists...and Jains, etc. :))

Selaphiel
July 29th, 2015, 11:25 AM
I do not know enough about the Jain religion to comment. I would be careful with attributing this attitude to Buddhists though. They do not relate to a personal ultimate and karma is not a personal force, it simply is a cause and effect view on morality. Buddhist karma is more about what will inevitably happen following certain paths. It is no secret that Buddhism is about personal striving to get rid of self-delusion or the delusion of a self to be more accurate. I prefer the ideal of the Bodhisatva in Buddhism, where the enlightened hold off their own personal gain and enter into samsara again to help others, I think that is an important corrective to what can be conceived as a too individualistic effort in some forms of Buddhism.

I also think it is important to now view the promise of eternal life, in classical Christianity at least (I'm no Islamic theologian, so cannot speak to that tradition), is not so much understood as a reward as it is understood as the true telos of mankind (Irenaeus' Gloria dei est vivens homo, the glory of God is man fully alive). What that means is that eternal life is not to be conceived as a reward, but rather as creation fulfilled, and sin is a hinderance to that goal as a force of death.

Tambora
July 29th, 2015, 11:41 AM
...or you're going to burn FOREVER if you are ot / don't do good...

were my thoughts today after arguing with a "G-d fearing" man (orthodox Jew at work) that without G-d, there is "no way you can have a good moral compass". (What absurdity...I told him to go and re-read the Hebrew Bible, especially, Leviticus, Deutoronamy and Exodus. Some pretty immoral stuff there being commanded by G-d.)

Anyway, I came away with the following thought:

Nothing could be lamer than appealing to a being's vanity to "do the right thing" to avoid eternal punishment.

Case closed.:o
Sounds like you would prefer that all the wickedness in the world should be without consequence.

pqmomba8
July 29th, 2015, 12:06 PM
I do not know enough about the Jain religion to comment. I would be careful with attributing this attitude to Buddhists though. They do not relate to a personal ultimate and karma is not a personal force, it simply is a cause and effect view on morality. Buddhist karma is more about what will inevitably happen following certain paths. It is no secret that Buddhism is about personal striving to get rid of self-delusion or the delusion of a self to be more accurate. I prefer the ideal of the Bodhisatva in Buddhism, where the enlightened hold off their own personal gain and enter into samsara again to help others, I think that is an important corrective to what can be conceived as a too individualistic effort in some forms of Buddhism.

I also think it is important to now view the promise of eternal life, in classical Christianity at least (I'm no Islamic theologian, so cannot speak to that tradition), is not so much understood as a reward as it is understood as the true telos of mankind (Irenaeus' Gloria dei est vivens homo, the glory of God is man fully alive). What that means is that eternal life is not to be conceived as a reward, but rather as creation fulfilled, and sin is a hinderance to that goal as a force of death.

Dude (I assume), you are seriously smart. See? I was right about "sagely". :) Most of your points about Buddhism are correct - but at the end of the day, the don't worship a celestial deity in order to "gain entry to paradise", but are on a path of self-enlightenment. Which I can totally dig. Live your life to the fullest while you're on terra firma - you only live once and life is short.....make the best of it. Pass the better world than you inherited to those that come after you...all that jazz. :)

Shalom!

pqmomba8
July 29th, 2015, 12:07 PM
Sounds like you would prefer that all the wickedness in the world should be without consequence.

When, oh WHEN did I allude to that?

nikolai_42
July 29th, 2015, 12:07 PM
Thank you Selaphiel! Now, this is something I can "work" with, understand and appreciate. My disillusion with belief in G-d and religion in general was partly due to my observation of the "G-d fearing flock" being more concerned about "pleasing the Boss" than actually doing good for goodness's sake. (Oh, and assuming that somehow, religions had the monopoly on morals. Uggghhh.)

Back in the day, when I belied in G-d (or at least wanted to), I studied with the Rabbi in my Hebrew school and then went to take many religion classes (and therefore read the Torah, Bible, Q'Uran, Bghagawat Ghita, etc.) to understand why the faith in the Divine was so important. Instead, it turned my into an agnostic and then, an atheist. Just seemed like all these religions were basically re-hashing of the mythology that came before them, just in a different "flavor." And the whole supernatural thing - I just don't "buy" any of it.

But it was mostly the premise that "Please the Boss or you will be tortured for eternity" that REALLY turned me off.

Anyway, thanks again Selaphiel. (BTW, you speak in sagely prose..... :)

Shalom!

Taking into account your OP and jumping off of your response to Selaphiel, let me add a thought. Leaving to the side the whole question of worship and obedience (one will either worship God - if they want to confess to His existence - self, or state), you are addressing the motive rather than the act itself. One can fear God and love Him at the same time - but one cannot love Him and hate Him simultaneously. If "I" fear God because of what He might do to "me" then - as you say - that doesn't say much about love. But if one's fear of God is because we have considered Him and what that means about us, that is a slightly different thing. Because one says "I will do anything to save my own hide" where the other says "Having been made aware of this God who is to be feared and loved, I find myself humbled before Him". The response of fear is to tremble and be paralyzed. The one of love is to bow and cry out for mercy.

You can see this in Isaiah's vision of God (Isaiah 6). He came before God and couldn't stand his own sin because of being in God's presence. But his reaction wasn't to run away and hide, but to cry out to God - and God responded by removing the iniquity that hindered him. On the other hand, when the demons that Jesus cast out spoke to Him, they didn't do so in the same way - they weren't looking to be changed, just be as far from Him as they could.

Remembering that the Law is summed up in "Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart and with all thy soul and with all thy strength and with all thy mind and thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself", it is clear to me that the Law - as an expression of God's character - is only (can only be) fulfilled in love. That means honoring God for who He is and not because of what it gets me. And John confirms this - that that sort of fear has no place in the believer's life :

There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love.
I John 4:18

However, looking again at the big picture, one who hates God won't want to please Him - just avoid his own punishment. But one who fears God is not prevented from loving Him simply because of fear.

Hope that makes at least a little sense...

pqmomba8
July 29th, 2015, 12:43 PM
Taking into account your OP and jumping off of your response to Selaphiel, let me add a thought. Leaving to the side the whole question of worship and obedience (one will either worship God - if they want to confess to His existence - self, or state), you are addressing the motive rather than the act itself. One can fear God and love Him at the same time - but one cannot love Him and hate Him simultaneously. If "I" fear God because of what He might do to "me" then - as you say - that doesn't say much about love. But if one's fear of God is because we have considered Him and what that means about us, that is a slightly different thing. Because one says "I will do anything to save my own hide" where the other says "Having been made aware of this God who is to be feared and loved, I find myself humbled before Him". The response of fear is to tremble and be paralyzed. The one of love is to bow and cry out for mercy.

You can see this in Isaiah's vision of God (Isaiah 6). He came before God and couldn't stand his own sin because of being in God's presence. But his reaction wasn't to run away and hide, but to cry out to God - and God responded by removing the iniquity that hindered him. On the other hand, when the demons that Jesus cast out spoke to Him, they didn't do so in the same way - they weren't looking to be changed, just be as far from Him as they could.

Remembering that the Law is summed up in "Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart and with all thy soul and with all thy strength and with all thy mind and thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself", it is clear to me that the Law - as an expression of God's character - is only (can only be) fulfilled in love. That means honoring God for who He is and not because of what it gets me. And John confirms this - that that sort of fear has no place in the believer's life :

There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love.
I John 4:18

However, looking again at the big picture, one who hates God won't want to please Him - just avoid his own punishment. But one who fears God is not prevented from loving Him simply because of fear.

Hope that makes at least a little sense...

Thank you for your reply. I understand the angle you are coming from....in the CONTEXT that you are expressing. What you are "guily" of (and many, many religious folks) is assuming that I hate G-d. Simply because I don't believe in Him. I don't, I really don't - how can you possibly hate something you don't believe in? I may "hate" for the misery, ignorance, hate, etc. it has brought on to this world since the dawn of man, but I certainly don't hate G-d...or unicorns or Santa Clause or.....well, you get the idea.

Shalom!

nikolai_42
July 29th, 2015, 12:56 PM
Thank you for your reply. I understand the angle you are coming from....in the CONTEXT that you are expressing. What you are "guily" of (and many, many religious folks) is assuming that I hate G-d. Simply because I don't believe in Him. I don't, I really don't - how can you possibly hate something you don't believe in? I may "hate" for the misery, ignorance, hate, etc. it has brought on to this world since the dawn of man, but I certainly don't hate G-d...or unicorns or Santa Clause or.....well, you get the idea.

Shalom!

One of the results of love (not causes of it) is obedience :

If ye love me, keep my commandments.
John 14:15

Since we can't see God, the only evidence of our love is our obedience to Him (or, rather, our submission to Him even if we do not evidence perfect obedience).

And I would say that denying the existence of God - if He exists - is hatred since it is no different than rejection. Outright rejection of God is not based on evidence but on personal inclination. At least the agnostic admits his own failure to grasp all things. The atheist has to make an absolute disavowal of something many others have affirmed. Why are their avowals mere fancy where the atheist is absolutely correct?

Hatred (like love) is not a mere emotional response.

Tambora
July 29th, 2015, 01:42 PM
When, oh WHEN did I allude to that?It was my observation of what you have said.

But here's the chance to make it clear.
Do you think wickedness should have consequences?
And if so, who would you like to appoint to decide what the consequence should be?

Lon
July 29th, 2015, 04:22 PM
...and much less with an eye in the reward in the after life. Only dogs do good for a treat which is akin to rewards. And as the Law is concerned, Jews do good because it is a Jewish thing to do.

Both are fine. In a sense, this is arguing parenting styles. I tried to be more of an encourager than a punisher as a Dad. The older I got, I redoubled those efforts. Punishment is unnecessary with my kids. I wonder as an adult if I needed to spank at all BUT many fine citizens were spanked a lot as kids. The verdict? To me, it seems moot.

When it comes to theology, because you have kids from all spiritual parenting styles, I 'think' it is a matter of style.

Imho, encouragement works better in all matters, including spiritual.

A kid just has to realize (by encouragement) that his thoughts are God's thoughts. He/she may reject Him yet, but a 'threat' doesn't do much good. I believe all of us who know God, met God. I pray when He comes to their town, they will run and see rather than ignore Him (figuratively for God being there and not silent as a truth). That's the best I can do, well other than knocking and saying "come and see!!!"

In Him, Who is

-Lon

pqmomba8
July 29th, 2015, 06:06 PM
One of the results of love (not causes of it) is obedience :

If ye love me, keep my commandments.
John 14:15

Since we can't see God, the only evidence of our love is our obedience to Him (or, rather, our submission to Him even if we do not evidence perfect obedience).

And I would say that denying the existence of God - if He exists - is hatred since it is no different than rejection. Outright rejection of God is not based on evidence but on personal inclination. At least the agnostic admits his own failure to grasp all things. The atheist has to make an absolute disavowal of something many others have affirmed. Why are their avowals mere fancy where the atheist is absolutely correct?

Hatred (like love) is not a mere emotional response.
Interesting you should say that (bolded above) - nobody knows everything for sure, I will give you that. I don't KNOW with 100% certainty that there is no G-d. (But then, if there was, WHICH of the 5,000 or so G-d's man has created is the "right one?) Again, NOBODY knows with absolute certainty that there isn't (or is) a G-d. The same way I don't know with 100% certainty that there isn't an invisible magical Unicorn standing behind me at this time and the entire universe was blown out of his horn gazillion bajillion years ago. There is NO way to disprove that.

So when I say I'm an atheist towards (whatever version) of G-d, it is in the same way I am an atheist towards the said unicorn or Santa Claus or....well, you get the picture. The evidence for all of them (including a Judeo-Christian version of a G-d) is equally poor.

So no, my disbelief / rejection of a G-d or a Unicorn or a Flying Spaghetti monster is not manifested as hate. Again I don't "hate" G-d.

Try again.

Shalom!!!!

pqmomba8
July 29th, 2015, 06:11 PM
It was my observation of what you have said.

But here's the chance to make it clear.
Do you think wickedness should have consequences?
And if so, who would you like to appoint to decide what the consequence should be?

Hello.

If by "wickedness" you mean negatively impacting other people, then absolutely, resoundingly YES. And the consequences should be decided by the society (or the tribe or whatever) that the transgressor has affected. It's fairly simple.

(And PLEASE don't go on that tired old tirade about "who decides what the transgressions are, and what the judgement is if there's no absolute authority, blah, blah, blah - that silly argument has been thrown out of the window a long, long, long time ago.) Belief in a Supreme Being does not hold a monopoly on morals and justice. (If history is any indicator, it has been quite contrary.)

Shalom!

Tambora
July 29th, 2015, 06:17 PM
Hello.Hi.


If by "wickedness" you mean The opposite of "being good".



And the consequences should be decided by the society (or the tribe or whatever) that the transgressor has affected. It's fairly simple.

(And PLEASE don't go on that tired old tirade about "who decides what the transgressions are, and what the judgement is if there's no absolute authority, blah, blah, blah - that silly argument has been thrown out of the window a long, long, long time ago.) Belief in a Supreme Being does not hold a monopoly on morals and justice. (If history is any indicator, it has been quite contrary.)
So you do recognize some sort of authority over you, right?

republicanchick
July 29th, 2015, 06:22 PM
...or :

Nothing could be lamer than appealing to a being's vanity to "do the right thing" to avoid eternal punishment.

Case closed.:o

how come?

do u always close the case b4 you know much about it?

hmmmm..

me, I believe more in Hell than I do in Heaven sometimes... b/c some people are just [fill in the blanks] and you just know they deserve soemthing like that... I pray for them... wouldn't want my worst enemy to go there, but I ... again... believe in Hell more and more the more evil I see... ISIS... Planned Barrenhead...


___

pqmomba8
July 29th, 2015, 06:37 PM
Hi.

The opposite of "being good".



So you do recognize some sort of authority over you, right?

I recognize a right of an individual not to be unduly negatively impacted by another individual(s.) That's why we have police, armed forces, etc. So?

pqmomba8
July 29th, 2015, 06:40 PM
how come?

do u always close the case b4 you know much about it?

hmmmm..

me, I believe more in Hell than I do in Heaven sometimes... b/c some people are just [fill in the blanks] and you just know they deserve soemthing like that... I pray for them... wouldn't want my worst enemy to go there, but I ... again... believe in Hell more and more the more evil I see... ISIS... Planned Barrenhead...


___

>>>>do u always close the case b4 you know much about it?
Everything in life is about context. And everything in life is subjective.......to ME, doing good for the sake of pleasing an overlord while protective oneself from being tortured for life is NOT doing good at all.

>>>>>believe more in Hell than I do in Heaven sometimes..
Must be a pretty dark existence. I'm sorry for you. :(

republicanchick
July 29th, 2015, 06:44 PM
>>>>do u always close the case b4 you know much about it?
Everything in life is about context. And everything in life is subjective.......to ME, doing good for the sake of pleasing an overlord while protective oneself from being tortured for life is NOT doing good at all.

>>>>>believe more in Hell than I do in Heaven sometimes..
Must be a pretty dark existence. I'm sorry for you. :(

I will bet u r... [sarcasm alert]

I couldn't love God either... if it weren't for Jesus... Jesus is proof that God cares about us.. The Father doesn't love us the way we WANT to be loved or think we should be loved... He sent Jesus... and that is what is needed... a Friend who loves unconditionally... and does not judge us harshly if we are trying...


+++

pqmomba8
July 29th, 2015, 06:55 PM
I will bet u r... [sarcasm alert]

I couldn't love God either... if it weren't for Jesus... Jesus is proof that God cares about us.. The Father doesn't love us the way we WANT to be loved or think we should be loved... He sent Jesus... and that is what is needed... a Friend who loves unconditionally... and does not judge us harshly if we are trying...


+++

LOL, no such thing as "unconditional love".

You're a Catholic, right? Here's a condition that G-d already gave you - if you don't put a small amount of water on an infant's forehead and it dies in infancy, it BURNS FOREVER!! That's a condition of a PSYCOPATH!! :)

Tambora
July 29th, 2015, 07:31 PM
I recognize a right of an individual not to be unduly negatively impacted by another individual(s.)
"Unduly"?
How does your 'authority' determine what is 'unduly'?


That's why we have police, armed forces, etc. So?Ummm, they enforce the rules of the authority, they are not the authority that make the rules.
We are talking about who gets to make the rules.

pqmomba8
July 29th, 2015, 08:04 PM
"Unduly"?
How does your 'authority' determine what is 'unduly'?

Ummm, they enforce the rules of the authority, they are not the authority that make the rules.
We are talking about who gets to make the rules.

Yeah, I get it and I know exactly where you're going with this. I'm not taking the bait. :) We can talk forever about what "authority" means and in what context. As I said earlier - everything in life is about context. There are several "contexts" to authority.

Jamie Gigliotti
July 30th, 2015, 07:29 AM
Thank you Selaphiel, PureX and Lo for your tangible contribution to the subject matter of this thread. You actullyhad valid arument that c e "gdigested" in the contet of this discussion. Everyone else - eh, just a egurgitation of the "same old, same old.

Anywy, let me put t o you this way: if the threat the eternal damnation was removed (I know, it's a hyothetica, but just bear with me), how many of the "pious" Christians (or Muslims or Jews, etc.) would still be actually, sincerely, worshipping heir G-d? YOu guys ever think about THAT? :)

The threat is conceptual and beyond our comprehension as is heaven. If God stood before you in all His might with He'll viewed in it's ugliness and horror as well, there would be no choice but in fear to bow down. What gets people to truley love and worship God is the love they have found in Him. Nothing else can. I barely think about heaven or He'll. I'm not gonna lie and say the cares and concerns of this world are not pulling at me, fighting against me connecting to Him and His love, because they are. But when I in humility worship, love Him those concerns are no where to be found.

Jamie Gigliotti
July 30th, 2015, 07:35 AM
You are most welcome, the question you ask is very important.

I do not believe in eternal damnation myself, I lean towards an universalism of apokatastasis.

There are probably quite a few that have a relationship to God based on fear and self-security. That is a very problematic relationship to have to the divine, probably not very healthy either.

This is why I think Luther said (or rather reminded us of) something important. If salvation is by grace, that is not of our merit, then we are truly free to love both God and neighbor. There would be nothing to gain for one self by doing good deeds. Those deeds would then assume their proper object, namely the neighbor and truly be in the service of God. Serving God purely out of fear and self-interest only serves to illumine what Christianity considers to be the root problem in man, namely pride.

Fear of God as a virtue is often misunderstood. It is not meant to be fear as in terror, but rather fear as in awe. But Christians must immediately qualify what we are in awe of, not of might and terror, but of infinite love, forgiveness and humility. Paul speaks of the wisdom that is foolishness to the world, that wisdom is Christ crucified. The glory of God is the crucified Son, the one who forgives even those who tortures and kills him.

This should be obvious to anyone who knows about Christianity. Sadly, it quickly diminishes and returns to worship of God as Emperor writ large, rather than crucified slave.
He is to be feared because of His Holiness and loved because of His love that is part of that same Holiness. The idea of fear should be present. Don't touch a hot pan. Its not a good idea, but without a love connection with Him we are all destined for failure. Fear alone won't do the trick.

Selaphiel
July 30th, 2015, 08:38 AM
He is to be feared because of His Holiness and loved because of His love that is part of that same Holiness. The idea of fear should be present. Don't touch a hot pan. Its not a good idea, but without a love connection with Him we are all destined for failure. Fear alone won't do the trick.

I have to disagree. God's holiness is his nature which is love. God's holiness cannot be divided up anymore than the nature of God can be divided up: His oneness is his goodness which is his truth which is his beauty.
There is a temptation to think that Christ was a temporarily change in God and who is or just reveals part of Him. The kenosis of Christ is the revelation of God, and it is his humility and cold suffering love that is the reason why every knee will eventually bow down to his name. You can respond in fear, in the sense of awe, to his holiness. Awe in the sense of utmost reverence and wonder of the One who is identified with the crucified Son who forgives his crucifiers.

Jamie Gigliotti
July 30th, 2015, 11:17 AM
I have to disagree. God's holiness is his nature which is love. God's holiness cannot be divided up anymore than the nature of God can be divided up: His oneness is his goodness which is his truth which is his beauty.
There is a temptation to think that Christ was a temporarily change in God and who is or just reveals part of Him. The kenosis of Christ is the revelation of God, and it is his humility and cold suffering love that is the reason why every knee will eventually bow down to his name. You can respond in fear, in the sense of awe, to his holiness. Awe in the sense of utmost reverence and wonder of the One who is identified with the crucified Son who forgives his crucifiers.

Logically nothing inhibits Holiness including Righteous judge and Loving Father. Jesus said only fear God who can throw you into Hell. He can not go against His righteousness. If there was no Hell, no judgement the cross would not have been necessary. In one act God proved He is Just and love.

Another point on fear. It can not even be realized until we've known Him, until we've experienced Him and His love, His truth. With the knowledge of Him, the reality of our desperate situation in need of Him to escape the upcoming judgement is meant to keep us on the narrow path. The way a Father warns of the dangers that should be avoided. The light and the darkness can not be joined together, but His light is available to all who are thirsty.

aikido7
July 30th, 2015, 11:31 AM
Most of traditional Christian belief is chock-full of things to believe that we "are told to." We grow up learning to pay attention to parents, older people or other authority figures--including those in the pulpit.

Christians could care less about Jesus, other than a "belief-based" faith that only insists on taking ancient theological phrases like "born of a virgin," "Messiah," "Son of God," etc.

These are faith claims--not actual history.

They are no different than calling Caesar Augustus "born of a virgin," "savior or the world," "God," etc. [Actually True!]. Or claiming that Mohammed entered Heaven by riding a big white horse into the sky one night.

We tend to see our own religious myths as "TRUE" while we easily assert that the myths of religions are nonsense.

Selaphiel
July 30th, 2015, 12:20 PM
Logically nothing inhibits Holiness including Righteous judge and Loving Father. Jesus said only fear God who can throw you into Hell. He can not go against His righteousness. If there was no Hell, no judgement the cross would not have been necessary. In one act God proved He is Just and love.

This assumes the doctrine of penal substitution, a doctrine that has been questioned to put it mildly. I think it fails to understand the purpose of judgment and what is revealed in Christ. The purpose of judgment in is the establishment of a community of shalom, not punishment for the sake of punishment. Secondly, it fails to grasp that Christ is not simply a sponge for the wrath of God. What Christ does is to take the wages of sin, that is the implicit consequence of sin, upon himself for our sake.

Against penal substitution I will simply echo the question of the renowned theologian Robert Jenson: How can one think that killing his Son would soothe the wrath of God? If we rather conceive of the cross as God representing humanity and taking the consequence of sin upon himself, that is death, and breaking the chains of death in the resurrection (a reality we participate in through union with Christ), we are not stuck with the bipolar depiction of God that results from penal substitution. Rather God becomes the physician that heals mankind by taking the destructive forces of sin upon himself.

There is judgment. The problem I have with your view here is that you separate the identity of this judge from the revelation of God in Christ. The judge is none other than the crucified Son, who is the kenosis of infinite love and forgiveness. His judgment is a judgment of love, and the final judgment will be consumation of this. All knees shall bow to Christ Jesus and participate in Him and his resurrection.


The light and the darkness can not be joined together, but His light is available to all who are thirsty.

Any lack of thirst is a symptom of sin itself. I trust in the love of God to be strong enough to eventually awaken thirst in everyone. The love of God is stronger than sin and death.

To suggest a remnant for eternal suffering is for me the same as saying that God's love is not strong enough, that sin is not truly defeated. Darkness will indeed be destroyed. In my eyes, the error is in thinking that some people are only darkness, which is an implicit dualism of absolute good and absolute evil. That goes against the essential doctrine of evil as privatio boni, which goes against the idea of creatio ex nihilo. And if we were to conceive of pure darkness and pure evil, such a being would be destroyed by the judgment of God, not persist in eternal suffering.

Tambora
July 30th, 2015, 12:25 PM
Yeah, I get it and I know exactly where you're going with this.Then you needn't be fearful of the outcome.


I'm not taking the bait. :) We can talk forever about what "authority" means and in what context. As I said earlier - everything in life is about context. There are several "contexts" to authority.The context is "do good or else the authority will punish you".

So, in context, on what basis do you decide who/what is the highest authority over you?
You gotta base it on something. So what is it?

Angel4Truth
July 30th, 2015, 01:46 PM
...or you're going to burn FOREVER if you are ot / don't do good...

were my thoughts today after arguing with a "G-d fearing" man (orthodox Jew at work) that without G-d, there is "no way you can have a good moral compass". (What absurdity...I told him to go and re-read the Hebrew Bible, especially, Leviticus, Deutoronamy and Exodus. Some pretty immoral stuff there being commanded by G-d.)

Anyway, I came away with the following thought:

Nothing could be lamer than appealing to a being's vanity to "do the right thing" to avoid eternal punishment.

Case closed.:o

Does a small child do good (obey parents) because they fully understand what is good, or because they want to please their parent and or avoid consequences for disobedience?

Proverbs 9:10 The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom, And the knowledge of the Holy One is understanding.

pqmomba8
July 30th, 2015, 02:06 PM
Then you needn't be fearful of the outcome.

The context is "do good or else the authority will punish you".

So, in context, on what basis do you decide who/what is the highest authority over you?
You gotta base it on something. So what is it?

Everyone, (ok, MOST people), even an Anarco-Capitalist like me, recognizes that an order must exist within a group (society).....or thing go bat***t crazy and no one (ok, most) can live a life according to their needs / wants. We therefore establish a coherent framework of this "order", which includes enforcement of certain (mostly) mutually agreed to rules of behavior. And before you go there, NO, this does not mean that these rules come from some "higher power" and are based on some "ultimate wisdom"......

Please, it's so easy and inherent.......why are we even having this conversation? :)

pqmomba8
July 30th, 2015, 02:09 PM
Does a small child do good (obey parents) because they fully understand what is good, or because they want to please their parent and or avoid consequences for disobedience?

Proverbs 9:10 The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom, And the knowledge of the Holy One is understanding.

Poor, poor, poor analogy. The child does want to please his / her parents, sure. The child does fear some kind of a punishment as a result of disobeying...however, the child is not under duress to "please the parent or else BE TORTURED for all of eternity. You need a G-d for something as abhorrent as that! :)

Shalom!

Angel4Truth
July 30th, 2015, 02:15 PM
Poor, poor, poor analogy. The child does want to please his / her parents, sure. The child does fear some kind of a punishment as a result of disobeying...however, the child is not under duress to "please the parent or else BE TORTURED for all of eternity. You need a G-d for something as abhorrent as that! :)

Shalom!

Length of punishment is irrelevant to the point.

pqmomba8
July 30th, 2015, 02:53 PM
Length of punishment is irrelevant to the point.
The CHARACTER of punishment (excruiciating torture) is very relevant. So is the length.

It's sad that so many rational adults condone such a horrible outcome...even if it is just a man-made fable.

Delmar
July 30th, 2015, 03:33 PM
...or you're going to burn FOREVER if you are ot / don't do good...

were my thoughts today after arguing with a "G-d fearing" man (orthodox Jew at work) that without G-d, there is "no way you can have a good moral compass". (What absurdity...I told him to go and re-read the Hebrew Bible, especially, Leviticus, Deutoronamy and Exodus. Some pretty immoral stuff there being commanded by G-d.)

Anyway, I came away with the following thought:

Nothing could be lamer than appealing to a being's vanity to "do the right thing" to avoid eternal punishment.

Case closed.:o

Nothing could be lamer than concluding your opening argument with the words "case closed!"

Angel4Truth
July 31st, 2015, 07:11 AM
The CHARACTER of punishment (excruiciating torture) is very relevant. So is the length. no it isnt, because a child of God will not suffer hell.


It's sad that so many rational adults condone such a horrible outcome...even if it is just a man-made fable.

You seem worried enough about it to try to convince of otherwise.

pqmomba8
July 31st, 2015, 07:27 AM
Nothing could be lamer than concluding your opening argument with the words "case closed!"

Touche. Let me restate that - subjectively speaking, nothing could be lamer. :) (Everything in life is subjective.)

pqmomba8
July 31st, 2015, 07:28 AM
no it isnt, because a child of God will not suffer hell.


You seem worried enough about it to try to convince of otherwise.

So everyone who is not a "child of G-d", should be TORTURED for eternity. That's absolutely repugnant!

Oh, please - I'm engaging in a dialogue.

Angel4Truth
July 31st, 2015, 07:29 AM
Oh, please - I'm engaging in a dialogue.

With yourself?

Jamie Gigliotti
July 31st, 2015, 08:25 AM
This assumes the doctrine of penal substitution, a doctrine that has been questioned to put it mildly. I think it fails to understand the purpose of judgment and what is revealed in Christ. The purpose of judgment in is the establishment of a community of shalom, not punishment for the sake of punishment. Secondly, it fails to grasp that Christ is not simply a sponge for the wrath of God. What Christ does is to take the wages of sin, that is the implicit consequence of sin, upon himself for our sake.

Against penal substitution I will simply echo the question of the renowned theologian Robert Jenson: How can one think that killing his Son would soothe the wrath of God? If we rather conceive of the cross as God representing humanity and taking the consequence of sin upon himself, that is death, and breaking the chains of death in the resurrection (a reality we participate in through union with Christ), we are not stuck with the bipolar depiction of God that results from penal substitution. Rather God becomes the physician that heals mankind by taking the destructive forces of sin upon himself.

There is judgment. The problem I have with your view here is that you separate the identity of this judge from the revelation of God in Christ. The judge is none other than the crucified Son, who is the kenosis of infinite love and forgiveness. His judgment is a judgment of love, and the final judgment will be consumation of this. All knees shall bow to Christ Jesus and participate in Him and his resurrection.



Any lack of thirst is a symptom of sin itself. I trust in the love of God to be strong enough to eventually awaken thirst in everyone. The love of God is stronger than sin and death.

To suggest a remnant for eternal suffering is for me the same as saying that God's love is not strong enough, that sin is not truly defeated. Darkness will indeed be destroyed. In my eyes, the error is in thinking that some people are only darkness, which is an implicit dualism of absolute good and absolute evil. That goes against the essential doctrine of evil as privatio boni, which goes against the idea of creatio ex nihilo. And if we were to conceive of pure darkness and pure evil, such a being would be destroyed by the judgment of God, not persist in eternal suffering.

The ideas you mention sound great! I wish they were all true.
Jesus didn't mince words. He has convinced me He said what He meant and meant what He said.
I'll be honest. The idea of eternal punishment sounds horrific. Long before I ever read the words, "there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth" I had a dream where I was gnashing My teeth into bloody painful mess and I couldn't stop. My worst nightmare; literally!

"For all have sinned and fallen short of the Glory of God, and are justified by His grace as a gift, through the redemption the is in Christ Jesus, whom God put forward as a propitiation, by his blood to be received by faith. This was to show God's righteousness, because in His divine forbearance, he had passed over former sins. It was to show His righteousness at the present time so He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus." Romans 3:23-26.

Propitiation/Hilisterion(greek)/appeasement/payment. This Cross demonstrates, proves He is just. And also His love. It is needed.

Agreed that by His wounds, His love we are healed.

"But God shows his love for us that while we are still sinners, Christ died for us." Romans 5:8

Can the love of the Cross be fathomed? How wide, how long, how deep it is? It can understood and known more and more. To say that if there is eternal separation from God(which is punishment, no doubt) then He is not love or His love is diminished, demeans the love and sacrifice of Christ and the Cross! It is a trap of the Devil. He can't be love if He punishes. You can't understand His love until you experience it.

The only way that makes sense is that the Spiritual self, the soul can not exist in time as we know it. To be here one moment and gone in the next, but is eternal that exists in a location as we understand that.

Jamie Gigliotti
July 31st, 2015, 08:38 AM
Poor, poor, poor analogy. The child does want to please his / her parents, sure. The child does fear some kind of a punishment as a result of disobeying...however, the child is not under duress to "please the parent or else BE TORTURED for all of eternity. You need a G-d for something as abhorrent as that! :)

Shalom!
Have you seriously attempted an understanding of Holiness? Think the purest spring water on the planet and add raw sewage. God is not in Hell punishing. The inmates may be running the asylum though. The punishment is the eternal seperation from Him. He has shown great mercy. He suffered for you and you mock and ignore Him. None the less, He at the door waiting for you because of His love for you.

pqmomba8
July 31st, 2015, 11:31 AM
Have you seriously attempted an understanding of Holiness? Think the purest spring water on the planet and add raw sewage. God is not in Hell punishing. The inmates may be running the asylum though. The punishment is the eternal seperation from Him. He has shown great mercy. He suffered for you and you mock and ignore Him. None the less, He at the door waiting for you because of His love for you.

You can not possibly not see the strawman in your argument! OK, let's just say, for the sake of this dialogue that G-d does exist (ummm, which one of the 5,000 or so G-d's that man ever created, btw) and as a punishment for your rejection of Him / Her, or not "towing the line" in following a doctrine, you do not win the prize of spending the entrnity with Him / Her. Why then are condemned to be TORTURED? G-d can just press the delete button and poof, you (or your soul, in this case) cease to exist.

I go back to the root of my original argument at the start of this thread - most "G-d fearing" folk "obey" because they are scared wittless of being TORTURED for all eternity. Very few of them actually admit that and rationalize the whole "infinite love, holiness, blah, bla, blah" but at the end of the day - it's the PAIN and SUFFERING that compells them to do it. What an aweful way to live one's life. :(

Jamie Gigliotti
July 31st, 2015, 12:13 PM
You can not possibly not see the strawman in your argument! OK, let's just say, for the sake of this dialogue that G-d does exist (ummm, which one of the 5,000 or so G-d's that man ever created, btw) and as a punishment for your rejection of Him / Her, or not "towing the line" in following a doctrine, you do not win the prize of spending the entrnity with Him / Her. Why then are condemned to be TORTURED? G-d can just press the delete button and poof, you (or your soul, in this case) cease to exist.

I go back to the root of my original argument at the start of this thread - most "G-d fearing" folk "obey" because they are scared wittless of being TORTURED for all eternity. Very few of them actually admit that and rationalize the whole "infinite love, holiness, blah, bla, blah" but at the end of the day - it's the PAIN and SUFFERING that compells them to do it. What an aweful way to live one's life. :(

And as I said before only His love compels. When I was severely wronged and I did not want to forgive and trust in His Justice or Him at all. I suffered greatly because of my lack of Him and His loving presence. When I finally got to the point where I surrendered again to my need of Him; it wasn't because I was scared of Hell. My life was Hell. I didn't forgive because of fear. I forgave because of His loving presence.

Delmar
August 6th, 2015, 12:32 AM
You can not possibly not see the strawman in your argument! OK, let's just say, for the sake of this dialogue that G-d does exist (ummm, which one of the 5,000 or so G-d's that man ever created, btw) and as a punishment for your rejection of Him / Her, or not "towing the line" in following a doctrine, you do not win the prize of spending the entrnity with Him / Her. Why then are condemned to be TORTURED? G-d can just press the delete button and poof, you (or your soul, in this case) cease to exist.

I go back to the root of my original argument at the start of this thread - most "G-d fearing" folk "obey" because they are scared wittless of being TORTURED for all eternity. Very few of them actually admit that and rationalize the whole "infinite love, holiness, blah, bla, blah" but at the end of the day - it's the PAIN and SUFFERING that compells them to do it. What an aweful way to live one's life. :(
If it could be proved to your satisfaction that Jesus Christ willingly gave His life so that you would not have to be TORTURED for all eternity and that He is risen from the grave, would you worship Him?

jzeidler
August 6th, 2015, 05:23 AM
...or you're going to burn FOREVER if you are ot / don't do good...



were my thoughts today after arguing with a "G-d fearing" man (orthodox Jew at work) that without G-d, there is "no way you can have a good moral compass". (What absurdity...I told him to go and re-read the Hebrew Bible, especially, Leviticus, Deutoronamy and Exodus. Some pretty immoral stuff there being commanded by G-d.)



Anyway, I came away with the following thought:



Nothing could be lamer than appealing to a being's vanity to "do the right thing" to avoid eternal punishment.



Case closed.:o


You know what, your right. There is nothing lamer than thinking that you have to do the right thing because your told to or you'll burn in hell. It's stupid and anti-Christian. Christ said "he who the Son sets free is free indeed." This freedom is a freedom from all law. Moral and every other. In another passage in the NT Paul was asked by a man "what must I DO to be saved." Paul answers by saying, "belief in Jesus and you'll be saved." There was nothing about works to be saved or to stay saved. Those who say otherwise are not living a life in the new covenant in Christ but they are under the old covenant under Moses. So in conclusion, you're totally right because our works have nothing to do with being or staying saved. They also have nothing to do with our holiness because in Christ we have been made already the righteousness of Christ and as Christ is now so are we in this world. Have a good day friend.