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annabenedetti
July 25th, 2015, 06:31 PM
I recently read the book Brain on Fire (http://www.amazon.com/Brain-Fire-My-Month-Madness/dp/1451621388/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1437869970&sr=8-1&keywords=brain+on+fire), Susannah Cahalan's account of her "month of madness" as she battled the disease attacking her brain called anti-NMDA-receptor autoimmune encephalitis. After her recovery she wrote about her ordeal, including the misdiagnosis which delayed her treatment and the support of her loved ones who fought for her when she couldn't fight for herself. It's an amazing, inspiring story and she's an amazing, inspiring writer.

Here's an overview from npr, where I first learned about her story, and which impelled me to buy the book:

'Brain On Fire' Details An Out-Of-Mind Experience (http://www.npr.org/2012/11/14/164400198/brain-on-fire-details-an-out-of-mind-experience)


Okay. With that background, something near the end of the book caught my attention. On page 222:
Evil. To the untrained eye, anti-NMDA-receptor autoimmune encephalitis can certainly appear malevolent. Afflicted sons and daughters suddenly became possessed, demonic, like creatures out of our most appalling nightmares. Imagine a young girl who, after several days of full-bodied convulsions that sent her flying into the air and off her bed – and after speaking in a strange, deep baritone, contorted her body and crab-walked down the staircase, hissing like a snake and spewing blood.

This chilling scene is, of course, from the unedited version of the blockbuster film The Exorcist, and though fictionalized, it depicts many of the same behaviors that children suffering from anti-NMDA-receptor autoimmune encephalitis do… In 2009, a thirteen-year-old girl from Tennessee displayed a “range of emotions and symptoms that varied by the hour, at time mirroring schizophrenia, and at other times, autism or cerebral palsy.” She lashed out violently and would bite her tongue and mouth. She once insisted on crab-walking across the hospital floor. She also spoke in a bizarre, Cajun-inflected accent, according to the Chattanooga Times Free Press, which detailed her experience with anti-NMDA-receptor autoimmune encephalitis and subsequent recovery...
I'd always accepted without question the idea of demonic possession. It was a part of my religious upbringing, it was what I was taught, it was both scriptural and doctrinal, the Church had exorcists to deal with the problem. It's the explanation for the unexplainable. If someone heard voices, it must have been the devil, it couldn't have been hypnagogia or schizophrenia, for example.

How many people have been exorcised, feared, scorned, shunned, or worse for a supposed spiritual ailment when it was an unrecognized, undiagnosed physical ailment?

What if there is no such thing as "demonic possession?"

StanJ
July 25th, 2015, 07:23 PM
I recently read the book Brain on Fire (http://www.amazon.com/Brain-Fire-My-Month-Madness/dp/1451621388/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1437869970&sr=8-1&keywords=brain+on+fire), Susannah Cahalan's account of her "month of madness" as she battled the disease attacking her brain called anti-NMDA-receptor autoimmune encephalitis. After her recovery she wrote about her ordeal, including the misdiagnosis which delayed her treatment and the support of her loved ones who fought for her when she couldn't fight for herself. It's an amazing, inspiring story and she's an amazing, inspiring writer.

Here's an overview from npr, where I first learned about her story, and which impelled me to buy the book:

'Brain On Fire' Details An Out-Of-Mind Experience (http://www.npr.org/2012/11/14/164400198/brain-on-fire-details-an-out-of-mind-experience)


Okay. With that background, something near the end of the book caught my attention. On page 222:

Evil. To the untrained eye, anti-NMDA-receptor autoimmune encephalitis can certainly appear malevolent. Afflicted sons and daughters suddenly became possessed, demonic, like creatures out of our most appalling nightmares. Imagine a young girl who, after several days of full-bodied convulsions that sent her flying into the air and off her bed – and after speaking in a strange, deep baritone, contorted her body and crab-walked down the staircase, hissing like a snake and spewing blood.

This chilling scene is, of course, from the unedited version of the blockbuster film The Exorcist, and though fictionalized, it depicts many of the same behaviors that children suffering from anti-NMDA-receptor autoimmune encephalitis do… In 2009, a thirteen-year-old girl from Tennessee displayed a “range of emotions and symptoms that varied by the hour, at time mirroring schizophrenia, and at other times, autism or cerebral palsy.” She lashed out violently and would bite her tongue and mouth. She once insisted on crab-walking across the hospital floor. She also spoke in a bizarre, Cajun-inflected accent, according to the Chattanooga Times Free Press, which detailed her experience with anti-NMDA-receptor autoimmune encephalitis and subsequent recovery...
I'd always accepted without question the idea of demonic possession. It was a part of my religious upbringing, it was what I was taught, it was both scriptural and doctrinal, the Church had exorcists to deal with the problem. It's the explanation for the unexplainable. If someone heard voices, it must have been the devil, it couldn't have been hypnagogia or schizophrenia, for example.

How many people have been exorcised, feared, scorned, shunned, or worse for a supposed spiritual ailment when it was an unrecognized, undiagnosed physical ailment?

What if there is no such thing as "demonic possession?"


Luke 8 is just ONE example of the fact that demons do possess people. I can verify from personal experience with demoniacs, that it is true.
Don't EVER under estimate the enemy!

Hedshaker
July 26th, 2015, 01:39 AM
Of course there is no evidence, beyond anecdotes and camp fire tales, for "demonic possession?". The actual evidence points to mental illness and, IMO, those crackpots who engages in exorcisms on individuals with obvious mental health issues should be prosecuted under the law for gross abuse.

That some people still buy such nonsense in this day-and-age is nothing short of scary, as is withholding genuine medical treatment because of a belief in some pie-in-the-sky spiritual healing.

One should always seek the attention of a qualified health care professional. Exorcists, psychic and spiritual healers are dangerous and do more harm than good, IMO.

Church warning on risks of exorcism (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/church-warning-on-risks-of-exorcism-1311154.html)

10 Deadly Exorcisms (http://listverse.com/2014/02/04/10-deadly-exorcisms/)


The idea that people are possessed with demons or evil spirits is one the most widely held religious and spiritual beliefs in the history of the world. But because of advancements in science, demonic possession and exorcism are often thought of as archaic. The Vatican released its guidelines for exorcism in 1614, and in the past 400 years we have learned a lot about how the brain works. For example, mental illnesses like schizophrenia can closely resemble signs of possession.

Sadly, some people still take part in this dangerous and medieval ritual. In most cases, the people who are killed aren’t even the ones who are suffering from mental illness; they’re usually the ones performing the exorcism. Other times, there are genuinely sick individuals who become victims to delusional religious zealots.

Nick M
July 26th, 2015, 02:16 AM
Well, the opening poster is demon possessed. So there is that. On the other hand a bunch of posters on TOL seem to have mental illness. Which just might be the marijuana talking.

Selaphiel
July 26th, 2015, 02:28 AM
The idea of demonic possession is part of the cosmology of the world in which Christianity, and other religions arose. Not much different from their idea that the divine realm was literally above them, the highest point in the three tiered cosmos of sheol, earth and heaven.

The demonic seems to have been their way of understanding mental illness and certain other medical conditions. To continue with this when we know that they are really medically explainable is irresponsible and it is downright immoral. It can be extremely dangerous, it can end in death for the one being exorcised or it can amplify and strengthen the mental illness. If there are any real demons, I certainly have not experienced them.

That said, I do believe that the spiritual and religious can play a role in helping people who struggle with such issues. However, they should NEVER do this at the expense of medical and psychiatric treatment and should not engage in the quasi-magic treatments of ritualistic exorcisms. They should simply be there for the one suffers from it and have fellowship with them and welcome them into the loving communion of the church (or the equivalent in other traditions). That may aid in their recovery, as long as they also get their required medical treatments.

annabenedetti
July 26th, 2015, 08:18 AM
Luke 8 is just ONE example of the fact that demons do possess people. I can verify from personal experience with demoniacs, that it is true.
Don't EVER under estimate the enemy!

How many demoniacs have you encountered?

annabenedetti
July 26th, 2015, 08:38 AM
The idea of demonic possession is part of the cosmology of the world in which Christianity, and other religions arose. Not much different from their idea that the divine realm was literally above them, the highest point in the three tiered cosmos of sheol, earth and heaven.

The demonic seems to have been their way of understanding mental illness and certain other medical conditions.

To continue with this when we know that they are really medically explainable is irresponsible and it is downright immoral. It can be extremely dangerous, it can end in death for the one being exorcised or it can amplify and strengthen the mental illness. If there are any real demons, I certainly have not experienced them.

Thanks, Sela, that's what I'm beginning to understand.


That said, I do believe that the spiritual and religious can play a role in helping people who struggle with such issues. However, they should NEVER do this at the expense of medical and psychiatric treatment and should not engage in the quasi-magic treatments of ritualistic exorcisms. They should simply be there for the one suffers from it and have fellowship with them and welcome them into the loving communion of the church (or the equivalent in other traditions). That may aid in their recovery, as long as they also get their required medical treatments.

You have a genuine compassion for others that's both reassuring and refreshing.

I'd be interested in what you'd say to those who would reference a literal, historical interpretation of scriptural accounts of possession.

Danoh
July 26th, 2015, 09:09 AM
...I'd be interested in what you'd say to those who would reference a literal, historical interpretation of scriptural accounts of possession.

That was before "that which is perfect is come" 1 Cor. 13:10.

That was back when a portal between this world and the spirit world was still open.

When that portal was still open, back when "holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost," 2 Peter 1: 20-21; 1 Cor. 2: 12-13.

Until when that which is perfect came - this here - 2 Timothy 3:

16. All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17. That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

And by then, both good and evil had set in motion each's doctrines or teachings.

Evil's side of that equation having been - 2 Corinthians 11's:

14. And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
15. Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.

With the completed Canon, said portal between both worlds was temporarily closed, until that day of 2 Thessalonians 2's "lying wonders" 2 Thessalonians 2:8-9.

This thread reminds me of an account related by a therapist famous for his great difference in approach, and its resulting rapid "cures."

A family hired him in hopes he might help their son, who had been living in a mental ward the past decade or so for his delusion that he was the Christ.

He meets with the man, asks him several times if he is sure he is the Christ. The man asserts he is. The therapist announces he'll be right back.

But just before he leaves, he pulls out a tape measure and asks the man to stretch out his arms from side to side, and measures them. He then again asks the man if he is sure he is the Christ.

A short while later, he returns with two long boards, a hammer and some long, spiked nails.

As he is putting that all together, he looks up at the man, smiles a sinister smile and asks him, "You're sure you're the Christ; right?"

The man replies that he is.

"Then you know why I'm here..." the therapist relates, with a cunning smile, as he finishes off the giant cross he has been putting together.

"No! No!" exclaims the man; snapping out of his delusion - "I'm not the Christ, I'm not the Christ; where's my wallet; I'll show you!"

chrysostom
July 26th, 2015, 09:32 AM
What if there is no such thing as "demonic possession?"

nice to see you back
but
sorry to see you are still into the dark stuff

many believe you are what you eat
but
could it also be true
that
you are what you read?

do you ever wonder about that?

annabenedetti
July 26th, 2015, 10:25 AM
This thread reminds me of an account related by a therapist famous for his great difference in approach, and its resulting rapid "cures."

A family hired him in hopes he might help their son, who had been living in a mental ward the past decade or so for his delusion that he was the Christ.

He meets with the man, asks him several times if he is sure he is the Christ. The man asserts he is. The therapist announces he'll be right back.

But just before he leaves, he pulls out a tape measure and asks the man to stretch out his arms from side to side, and measures them. He then again asks the man if he is sure he is the Christ.

A short while later, he returns with two long boards, a hammer and some long, spiked nails.

As he is putting that all together, he looks up at the man, smiles a sinister smile and asks him, "You're sure you're the Christ; right?"

The man replies that he is.

"Then you know why I'm here..." the therapist relates, with a cunning smile, as he finishes off the giant cross he has been putting together.

"No! No!" exclaims the man; snapping out of his delusion - "I'm not the Christ, I'm not the Christ; where's my wallet; I'll show you!"

That's a bizarrely bad joke.

annabenedetti
July 26th, 2015, 10:30 AM
nice to see you back
but
sorry to see you are still into the dark stuff

Thank you.

Have you ever doubted what you believe, chrys? Do you consider doubt to be dark stuff?

(And in typing that, I've just remembered your thread about the movie Doubt.)


many believe you are what you eat
but
could it also be true
that
you are what you read?

do you ever wonder about that?

Yes, I do wonder about that.

chrysostom
July 26th, 2015, 10:45 AM
Thank you.

Have you ever doubted what you believe, chrys? Do you consider doubt to be dark stuff?

(And in typing that, I've just remembered your thread about the movie Doubt.)



Yes, I do wonder about that.

the movie was great
but
there was also a book called doubt (http://www.amazon.com/Doubt-Doubters-Innovation-Jefferson-Dickinson/dp/0060097957)
one of the best I have ever read

I don't think I have ever really doubted
I have only doubted myself
doubted my ability to make sense of all this
never doubted that it did make sense
and
I think that is what the nuns taught us
it does make sense
you just have to find it

annabenedetti
July 26th, 2015, 11:04 AM
the movie was great
but
there was also a book called doubt (http://www.amazon.com/Doubt-Doubters-Innovation-Jefferson-Dickinson/dp/0060097957)
one of the best I have ever read


I know you've read a lot of books. I'll take a look at it.


I don't think I have ever really doubted
I have only doubted myself
doubted my ability to make sense of all this
never doubted that it did make sense
and
I think that is what the nuns taught us
it does make sense
you just have to find itDo you think it has anything to do with being raised Catholic, growing up in a Catholic culture where you didn't doubt your parents or your priests or your nuns because you were raised to be obedient, follow the rules, accept authority without question? That saying you only doubt yourself would make sense in that context but not out of it?

That's a serious question and I hope you think about it before you answer.

As for wondering about us being what we read, that could go both ways, I'm hoping you understood that's what I was saying.

I've read plenty over the years that affirmed and confirmed what I'd been taught, and read little that challenged what I'd been taught. I'd been raised to be that way, though I didn't understand that for such a long time. I'd been taught that thesis/antithesis/synthesis was a bad thing; it was capitulation.

When we control (or someone controls for us) access to other ideas or points of view out of fear that we might be confronted with doubt, don't you see that as being problematic?

Ask Mr. Religion
July 26th, 2015, 11:08 AM
..disease attacking her brain called anti-NMDA-receptor autoimmune encephalitis.

...

What if there is no such thing as "demonic possession?"

If the behavior is treatable (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3705219/) by ordinary medical methods, then it was not demonic possession in the first place.

We have warrant from Scripture that demonic possession is possible in God's creatures that are not indwelt by the Holy Spirit. To say that demonic possession is not possible is to deny the verbal plenary inspiration of the Bible.

AMR

Nick M
July 26th, 2015, 11:18 AM
Have you ever doubted what you believe, chrys?

I didn't know that is possible. If you believe, then there is no doubt. He could doubt things told to him. I have. Things didn't add up. There was doubt.

Danoh
July 26th, 2015, 11:22 AM
That's a bizarrely bad joke.

Slow down a bit, remove the blindness that has you an RC, and reread that post - it is a true account, not "a bizarrely bad joke."

aikido7
July 26th, 2015, 11:27 AM
I recently read the book Brain on Fire (http://www.amazon.com/Brain-Fire-My-Month-Madness/dp/1451621388/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1437869970&sr=8-1&keywords=brain+on+fire), Susannah Cahalan's account of her "month of madness" as she battled the disease attacking her brain called anti-NMDA-receptor autoimmune encephalitis. After her recovery she wrote about her ordeal, including the misdiagnosis which delayed her treatment and the support of her loved ones who fought for her when she couldn't fight for herself. It's an amazing, inspiring story and she's an amazing, inspiring writer.

Here's an overview from npr, where I first learned about her story, and which impelled me to buy the book:

'Brain On Fire' Details An Out-Of-Mind Experience (http://www.npr.org/2012/11/14/164400198/brain-on-fire-details-an-out-of-mind-experience)


Okay. With that background, something near the end of the book caught my attention. On page 222:
Evil. To the untrained eye, anti-NMDA-receptor autoimmune encephalitis can certainly appear malevolent. Afflicted sons and daughters suddenly became possessed, demonic, like creatures out of our most appalling nightmares. Imagine a young girl who, after several days of full-bodied convulsions that sent her flying into the air and off her bed – and after speaking in a strange, deep baritone, contorted her body and crab-walked down the staircase, hissing like a snake and spewing blood.

This chilling scene is, of course, from the unedited version of the blockbuster film The Exorcist, and though fictionalized, it depicts many of the same behaviors that children suffering from anti-NMDA-receptor autoimmune encephalitis do… In 2009, a thirteen-year-old girl from Tennessee displayed a “range of emotions and symptoms that varied by the hour, at time mirroring schizophrenia, and at other times, autism or cerebral palsy.” She lashed out violently and would bite her tongue and mouth. She once insisted on crab-walking across the hospital floor. She also spoke in a bizarre, Cajun-inflected accent, according to the Chattanooga Times Free Press, which detailed her experience with anti-NMDA-receptor autoimmune encephalitis and subsequent recovery...
I'd always accepted without question the idea of demonic possession. It was a part of my religious upbringing, it was what I was taught, it was both scriptural and doctrinal, the Church had exorcists to deal with the problem. It's the explanation for the unexplainable. If someone heard voices, it must have been the devil, it couldn't have been hypnagogia or schizophrenia, for example.

How many people have been exorcised, feared, scorned, shunned, or worse for a supposed spiritual ailment when it was an unrecognized, undiagnosed physical ailment?

What if there is no such thing as "demonic possession?"As you said, demonic possession is the "explanation for the unexplainable."

kmoney
July 26th, 2015, 11:51 AM
The idea of demonic possession is part of the cosmology of the world in which Christianity, and other religions arose. Not much different from their idea that the divine realm was literally above them, the highest point in the three tiered cosmos of sheol, earth and heaven.

The demonic seems to have been their way of understanding mental illness and certain other medical conditions. To continue with this when we know that they are really medically explainable is irresponsible and it is downright immoral. It can be extremely dangerous, it can end in death for the one being exorcised or it can amplify and strengthen the mental illness. If there are any real demons, I certainly have not experienced them.

That said, I do believe that the spiritual and religious can play a role in helping people who struggle with such issues. However, they should NEVER do this at the expense of medical and psychiatric treatment and should not engage in the quasi-magic treatments of ritualistic exorcisms. They should simply be there for the one suffers from it and have fellowship with them and welcome them into the loving communion of the church (or the equivalent in other traditions). That may aid in their recovery, as long as they also get their required medical treatments.

I agree with much of this. Just like parents (or anyone) shouldn't skip medical treatments for physical ailments in favor of only praying for healing, they shouldn't skip medical treatments and diagnosis for mental or emotional ailments as well. However, I'm wary of writing off demon possession completely, based on scriptural testimony. Do you think angels and demons in general are simply parts of the biblical cosmology that shouldn't be taken seriously?

chrysostom
July 26th, 2015, 11:57 AM
Do you think it has anything to do with being raised Catholic, growing up in a Catholic culture where you didn't doubt your parents or your priests or your nuns because you were raised to be obedient, follow the rules, accept authority without question? That saying you only doubt yourself would make sense in that context but not out of it?

That's a serious question and I hope you think about it before you answer.

I doubted everyone
and
everything except the rules and authority without a question
I spent four years in the military
and
I know how important that is
but
they never asked me to kill anyone
I was able to put myself in a position where they wouldn't
in my mind I challenged, questioned, and doubted everything
but
I preferred order to chaos
and
will continue to do so

yes I was raised to be obedient
and
so was everyone around me
and
I could see what happened when you weren't

I didn't like that part

George Affleck
July 26th, 2015, 12:21 PM
What if there is no such thing as "demonic possession?"

Please notice the responses you receive to this thread from unbelievers designed to encourage you to accept this explanation and consider that source. Also notice the responses you receive from true Bible believers and consider that source as well, if you are indeed looking for a Biblical answer.

All acute or chronic dis-ease (lack of physical perfection) is the result of sin having entered into God's perfect creation and ultimately results in physical death. As a result of 6000 years of mistakes piled on mistakes in the genome, we now have health pressures that have steadily increased and will continue to increase as time goes on. There is no one who is not subject to this law of eventual death.

As a result of the disobedience of the head of our race (Adam), our Creator God has pulled back just enough of His protective and sustaining power to allow us to peek into a universe entirely ruled by a Satanic reign of chaos. Not taking these things seriously usually results in an escalation of Satanic symptoms. Fleeing the devil results in an increase of God's protecting power.

Thus, a common cold, cancer, and demonic possession originate from the same source. The difference lies in the danger posed to the individual. It is Biblical to understand that demonic possession, although curable, is much more dangerous as it poses an immediate threat to the soul - that one is closer to the "event horizon" of hell.

The Father, in elevating His Son to the highest position of authority, has provided a permanent and everlasting solution to Paradise Lost but not everyone will embrace the Son and be cured of sin. Why? Disobedience.

Tyrathca
July 26th, 2015, 12:57 PM
For those who are still saying demonic possession is still real can any of you describe how you tell the difference between it and non-spiritual causes?

kmoney
July 26th, 2015, 01:02 PM
Okay. With that background, something near the end of the book caught my attention. On page 222:
Evil. To the untrained eye, anti-NMDA-receptor autoimmune encephalitis can certainly appear malevolent. Afflicted sons and daughters suddenly became possessed, demonic, like creatures out of our most appalling nightmares. Imagine a young girl who, after several days of full-bodied convulsions that sent her flying into the air and off her bed – and after speaking in a strange, deep baritone, contorted her body and crab-walked down the staircase, hissing like a snake and spewing blood.

This chilling scene is, of course, from the unedited version of the blockbuster film The Exorcist, and though fictionalized, it depicts many of the same behaviors that children suffering from anti-NMDA-receptor autoimmune encephalitis do… In 2009, a thirteen-year-old girl from Tennessee displayed a “range of emotions and symptoms that varied by the hour, at time mirroring schizophrenia, and at other times, autism or cerebral palsy.” She lashed out violently and would bite her tongue and mouth. She once insisted on crab-walking across the hospital floor. She also spoke in a bizarre, Cajun-inflected accent, according to the Chattanooga Times Free Press, which detailed her experience with anti-NMDA-receptor autoimmune encephalitis and subsequent recovery...
I


That's fascinating and scary. :think:

Selaphiel
July 26th, 2015, 02:00 PM
I agree with much of this. Just like parents (or anyone) shouldn't skip medical treatments for physical ailments in favor of only praying for healing, they shouldn't skip medical treatments and diagnosis for mental or emotional ailments as well. However, I'm wary of writing off demon possession completely, based on scriptural testimony. Do you think angels and demons in general are simply parts of the biblical cosmology that shouldn't be taken seriously?

I can't write it off either. Just that I haven't seen any case that isn't explainable in terms of psychiatry.

Not sure I would put angels and demons as "equals" in this case. Angels are messengers of the divine, and their nature in scripture is unclear to say the least. I don't think they are, at least not often, tied to things that we know are explainable in other terms. Demons on the other hand are almost exclusively tied to causes of both physical conditions and mental sickness.

Hedshaker
July 26th, 2015, 03:29 PM
For those who are still saying demonic possession is still real can any of you describe how you tell the difference between it and non-spiritual causes?

I would also like to see this addressed. It never ceases to amaze me the bat poo crazy stuff people consider possible. But then you never know, maybe that ubiquitous guy in the asylum really is Napoleon :kookoo:

StanJ
July 26th, 2015, 04:01 PM
How many demoniacs have you encountered?


A few, and it was very unsettling. It is NOT like the movies.

StanJ
July 26th, 2015, 04:05 PM
For those who are still saying demonic possession is still real can any of you describe how you tell the difference between it and non-spiritual causes?


Well you have to be born of the spirit first of all, so those who aren't, CAN'T.
Once you are and prepared to do that kind of warfare, it is not hard to tell.
There is no doubt when you deal with a demoniac as opposed to someone with Tourette syndrome (http://www.ninds.nih.gov/disorders/tourette/detail_tourette.htm).

annabenedetti
July 26th, 2015, 04:26 PM
A few, and it was very unsettling. It is NOT like the movies.

I'm curious. How did you determine they weren't mentally ill? I mean, how do you look at someone and decide they're possessed?

Tyrathca
July 26th, 2015, 04:31 PM
Well you have to be born of the spirit first of all, so those who aren't, CAN'T.
Once you are and prepared to do that kind of warfare, it is not hard to tell.
There is no doubt when you deal with a demoniac as opposed to someone with Tourette syndrome (http://www.ninds.nih.gov/disorders/tourette/detail_tourette.htm).

This sounds like you're saying that only certain people have the special ability to sense the difference. Those that can don't use any criteria but instead "just know" (psychic? Hunch? Guessing? What?) and the possessed are otherwise indistinguishable from non-spiritual diseases.

Did I get that right? The way you worded it left me unclear so I'm trying to understand /clarify.

annabenedetti
July 26th, 2015, 04:38 PM
Thus, a common cold, cancer, and demonic possession originate from the same source.

The devil causes colds and cancer?

I appreciate your thoughtful answer, and hope you take the question in that light - and I hope I'm misunderstanding you.

annabenedetti
July 26th, 2015, 04:57 PM
If the behavior is treatable (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3705219/) by ordinary medical methods, then it was not demonic possession in the first place.

I don't think historically that medical diagnosis and treatment was necessarily attempted before possession was assumed to be the cause, especially since it's only been in recent history that we knew enough about the brain to even identify and recognize many disorders that we know about today. Heck, even the young woman in the OP was only the 217th. person to receive her particular diagnosis.


We have warrant from Scripture that demonic possession is possible in God's creatures that are not indwelt by the Holy Spirit. To say that demonic possession is not possible is to deny the verbal plenary inspiration of the Bible.

AMR

Are you a biblical literalist? Jonah in the belly of the whale, for example?

George Affleck
July 26th, 2015, 05:35 PM
The devil causes colds and cancer?

I appreciate your thoughtful answer, and hope you take the question in that light - and I hope I'm misunderstanding you.

Yes you are misunderstanding.

Original sin is the ultimate cause of all disease and particularly death. Disobedience is sin. Listening to God's enemy is disobedience.

It is popular to believe that sin is an abstraction. It is not. It is an actual thing that holds sway in the world. It affects everything.

annabenedetti
July 26th, 2015, 06:17 PM
Yes you are misunderstanding.

Original sin is the ultimate cause of all disease and particularly death. Disobedience is sin. Listening to God's enemy is disobedience.

It is popular to believe that sin is an abstraction. It is not. It is an actual thing that holds sway in the world. It affects everything.

Not all Christians believe in original sin. Catholics do, but not all Christians. What do those who don't believe in original sin say about sin and death?

Catholics baptize babies for that specific reason, to wash away original sin. Catholic doctrine holds out hope for heaven for unbaptized babies, but doesn't guarantee their salvation.

What kind of God would deny heaven to an innocent baby?

What kind of doctrine would inflict illness and death on someone for sins they weren't guilty of? I know these aren't original questions at all, but they're my questions right now.

StanJ
July 26th, 2015, 06:21 PM
I'm curious. How did you determine they weren't mentally ill? I mean, how do you look at someone and decide they're possessed?


The same way Jesus and the apostles knew. Spiritual discernment.

annabenedetti
July 26th, 2015, 06:24 PM
I doubted everyone
and
everything except the rules and authority without a question


I preferred order to chaos
and
will continue to do so
Why didn't you question the rules and authority? Was it because they represented order and that's what felt comfortable and reassuring?

But how could you doubt everyone without doubting their rules and authority?

I'm not trying to give you a hard time, I'm trying to make sure I'm understanding you.


yes I was raised to be obedient
and
so was everyone around me
and
I could see what happened when you weren't

I didn't like that partWhat happened when you weren't?

StanJ
July 26th, 2015, 06:27 PM
This sounds like you're saying that only certain people have the special ability to sense the difference. Those that can don't use any criteria but instead "just know" (psychic? Hunch? Guessing? What?) and the possessed are otherwise indistinguishable from non-spiritual diseases.
Did I get that right? The way you worded it left me unclear so I'm trying to understand /clarify.

As you label yourself an Atheist, you won't understand nor accept my explanation. Suffice it to say it IS distinguishable in the spiritual realm.

annabenedetti
July 26th, 2015, 06:28 PM
The same way Jesus and the apostles knew. Spiritual discernment.

You're not Jesus. You're not the first Christian I've encountered who claims for himself divine ability, but this one could be detrimental to anyone in your life struggling with mental illness.

You're assuming an ability for yourself that can't be proven. You say you have discernment, therefore you do?

StanJ
July 26th, 2015, 06:38 PM
You're not Jesus. You're not the first Christian I've encountered who claims for himself divine ability, but this one could be detrimental to anyone in your life struggling with mental illness.
You're assuming an ability for yourself that can't be proven. You say you have discernment, therefore you do?


I claimed no such thing so obviously YOU don't read with comprehension or English is not your mother tongue.

No assumption at all....EXPERIENCE.

annabenedetti
July 26th, 2015, 06:44 PM
I claimed no such thing so obviously YOU don't read with comprehension or English is not your mother tongue.

No assumption at all....EXPERIENCE.


The same way Jesus and the apostles knew. Spiritual discernment.

Sorry, you're not convincing. I hope the next time you 'discern' that someone is possessed, you're friend or family enough help them seek help from a medical professional.

fzappa13
July 26th, 2015, 06:45 PM
Not all Christians believe in original sin. Catholics do, but not all Christians. What do those who don't believe in original sin say about sin and death?

Catholics baptize babies for that specific reason, to wash away original sin. Catholic doctrine holds out hope for heaven for unbaptized babies, but doesn't guarantee their salvation.

What kind of God would deny heaven to an innocent baby?

What kind of doctrine would inflict illness and death on someone for sins they weren't guilty of? I know these aren't original questions at all, but they're my questions right now.

You answered your own question, dear. It's a doctrine and nothing more. Doctrines can neither save or condemn anyone.

annabenedetti
July 26th, 2015, 06:46 PM
Slow down a bit, remove the blindness that has you an RC, and reread that post - it is a true account, not "a bizarrely bad joke."

Do you have source attribution for this bizarrely bad true account?

StanJ
July 26th, 2015, 06:50 PM
Sorry, you're not convincing. I hope the next time you 'discern' that someone is possessed, you're friend or family enough help them seek help from a medical professional.


Again, learn English. Discernment does NOT equate to divinity. I know if's hard for RCs to understand this given they have made a lot of human beings divine ones, like Mary. You should really understand the subject matter IF you're going to be the OP.

fzappa13
July 26th, 2015, 06:55 PM
Sorry, you're not convincing. I hope the next time you 'discern' that someone is possessed, you're friend or family enough help them seek help from a medical professional.

If you confidence is in man you are destined to experience disappointment be your concerns medical or other ...

annabenedetti
July 26th, 2015, 06:57 PM
Again, learn English. Discernment does NOT equate to divinity.

I said "divine ability," not divinity. Big difference.


I know if's hard for RCs to understand this given they have made a lot of human beings divine ones, like Mary. You should really understand the subject matter IF you're going to be the OP.

You should really understand that I don't find your claimed ability to discern the difference between demonic possession and Tourette's to be at all convincing. Thanks for stopping by.

Hedshaker
July 26th, 2015, 07:02 PM
I can't dish out another rep just yet but, this......



You should really understand that I don't find your claimed ability to discern the difference between demonic possession and Tourette's to be at all convincing.

On the button :thumb: :thumb:

serpentdove
July 26th, 2015, 07:03 PM
"After her recovery she wrote about her ordeal, including the misdiagnosis which delayed her treatment and the support of her loved ones who fought for her when she couldn't fight for herself."

Demonic possession is not insanity (Matt. 4:24).

annabenedetti
July 26th, 2015, 07:03 PM
If you confidence is in man you are destined to experience disappointment be your concerns medical or other ...

That was curiosity on my part, wondering at the mindset of someone who claims that kind of authority for himself. I wonder if he claims infallibility.

Hedshaker
July 26th, 2015, 07:06 PM
Demonic possession is not insanity (Matt. 4:24).

At least we all know that mental illness is real

serpentdove
July 26th, 2015, 07:08 PM
"If there are any real demons, I certainly have not experienced them."

There are. It may help to explain some extreme cases of violence that we read about in the news (Mark 5:1–5).

serpentdove
July 26th, 2015, 07:10 PM
At least we all know that mental illness is real

Yes, and of course Christians are not immune to this. We live in a fallen world (Ge 1:31).

fzappa13
July 26th, 2015, 07:13 PM
That was curiosity on my part, wondering at the mindset of someone who claims that kind of authority for himself. I wonder if he claims infallibility.

I tend to ignore Stan as I have found him to be something of a slug so I certainly wouldn't attempt to speak for him. I was addressing your posts.

Hedshaker
July 26th, 2015, 07:14 PM
Yes, and of course Christians are not immune to this. We live in a fallen world (Ge 1:31).

Speak for yourself :thumb:

annabenedetti
July 26th, 2015, 07:21 PM
You answered your own question, dear. It's a doctrine and nothing more. Doctrines can neither save or condemn anyone.

Catholic doctrine does, in effect. I realize non-Catholics would view that concept in a different light, but when doctrine tells Catholics if they don't go to Mass on Sunday and don't confess that sin, they're headed for hell. But other denominations have their doctrines too, and the arguments for and against. Like baptism of water, or not. Is that right?

fzappa13
July 26th, 2015, 07:29 PM
Catholic doctrine does, in effect. I realize non-Catholics would view that concept in a different light, but when doctrine tells Catholics if they don't go to Mass on Sunday and don't confess that sin, they're headed for hell. But other denominations have their doctrines too, and the arguments for and against. Like baptism of water, or not. Is that right?

Yes, I have long said that the various doctrines that have arisen to divide those that claim Christ are exactly what each doctrinal adherent has misunderstood. Baptism is a great example. It's like the rest of God's ordinances which are prophetic symbols of things to come.


Col 2:16Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: 17Which are a shadow of things to come;

Don't mistake the shadow for the thing casting the shadow.

serpentdove
July 26th, 2015, 07:34 PM
Speak for yourself :thumb:

We mouth off a lot here and get away with it. :reals: Don't try that with an angel. They're scarier than demons to my mind. :shocked:

But the angel said to him, :) “Do not be afraid, Zacharias, for your prayer is heard; and your wife Elizabeth will bear you a son, and you shall call his name John. And you will have joy and gladness, and many will rejoice at his birth. For he will be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink. He will also be filled with the Holy Spirit, even from his mother’s womb. And he will turn many of the children of Israel to the Lord their God. He will also go before Him in the spirit and power of Elijah, ‘to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children,’ and the disobedient to the wisdom of the just, to make ready a people prepared for the Lord.”

And Zacharias said to the angel, “How shall I know this? For I am an old man, and my wife is well advanced in years.”

And the angel answered and said to him, :mmph: “I am Gabriel, who stands in the presence of God, and was sent to speak to you and bring you these glad tidings. But behold, you will be mute and not able to speak until the day these things take place, because you did not believe my words which will be fulfilled in their own time.” Lk 1:13–20

serpentdove
July 26th, 2015, 07:38 PM
A few, and it was very unsettling. It is NOT like the movies.

It's real. Demonic possession is not a disease either (Mark 1:32).

Ktoyou
July 26th, 2015, 07:50 PM
Please notice the responses you receive to this thread from unbelievers designed to encourage you to accept this explanation and consider that source. Also notice the responses you receive from true Bible believers and consider that source as well, if you are indeed looking for a Biblical answer.

All acute or chronic dis-ease (lack of physical perfection) is the result of sin having entered into God's perfect creation and ultimately results in physical death. As a result of 6000 years of mistakes piled on mistakes in the genome, we now have health pressures that have steadily increased and will continue to increase as time goes on. There is no one who is not subject to this law of eventual death.

As a result of the disobedience of the head of our race (Adam), our Creator God has pulled back just enough of His protective and sustaining power to allow us to peek into a universe entirely ruled by a Satanic reign of chaos. Not taking these things seriously usually results in an escalation of Satanic symptoms. Fleeing the devil results in an increase of God's protecting power.

Thus, a common cold, cancer, and demonic possession originate from the same source. The difference lies in the danger posed to the individual. It is Biblical to understand that demonic possession, although curable, is much more dangerous as it poses an immediate threat to the soul - that one is closer to the "event horizon" of hell.

The Father, in elevating His Son to the highest position of authority, has provided a permanent and everlasting solution to Paradise Lost but not everyone will embrace the Son and be cured of sin. Why? Disobedience.

You do present a good argument, not that I agree with all you say, just letting you know I think you may be a thinker.

George Affleck
July 26th, 2015, 07:58 PM
Not all Christians believe in original sin. Catholics do, but not all Christians. What do those who don't believe in original sin say about sin and death?

It is not my job to speak for unbelievers. Believers, because they believe what God tells us, believe in original sin.

My opinion does not matter.
Your opinion does not matter.
What matters is what God says.

Ps 51:5KJV, Ps 14:3KJV, Jer 17:9KJV, Rom 5:12KJV



Catholics baptize babies for that specific reason, to wash away original sin. Catholic doctrine holds out hope for heaven for unbaptized babies, but doesn't guarantee their salvation.

What the Roman Catholic church does or believes is not for me to defend. I believe the Bible only.


What kind of God would deny heaven to an innocent baby?

Try asking the right questions. God denies heaven to no one except those who deny His son. Rom 6:23KJV Can an unborn baby deny Jesus?

What kind of person would decide to rip an innocent baby from its place of safety, a mother's womb, and deliberately kill it? 60+ million since 1973 and counting. Sin, the result of disobedience to God's laws, is active everywhere.

The God of the Bible takes ultimate responsibility for these unborn souls but will punish the unrepentant murderers. Luke 17:1KJV


What kind of doctrine would inflict illness and death on someone for sins they weren't guilty of? I know these aren't original questions at all, but they're my questions right now.

Except for Jesus, there is no one who is not guilty of disobedience of some kind. There are definitely degrees of guilt but the Bible declares that just one is enough for God to pronounce that guilt. Jas 2:10KJV

Have you ever told an untruth however small? You are a liar.
Have you ever hated? You are a murderer.
Have you ever taken something that is not yours? You are a thief.
Have you ever lusted outside of marriage? You are an adulterer.

We are all in the same boat. We are all sinners by nature. The reason we sin is because we are sinners. It is everywhere. It comes out in a million ways every day. Why are so many blind to it is a far better question to ask.

Ktoyou
July 26th, 2015, 08:00 PM
encephalitis may well lead to brain damage. What one might call mental illness, would you say that is also brain illness?

Take depression, some make a recovery to SSRI druidism, yet most do not and all that serotonin may, and usually leads to lame brain homeostasis

Hedshaker
July 26th, 2015, 08:09 PM
We mouth off a lot here and get away with it. :reals: Don't try that with an angel. They're scarier than demons to my mind. :shocked:

But the angel said to him, :) “Do not be afraid, Zacharias, for your prayer is heard; and your wife Elizabeth will bear you a son, and you shall call his name John. And you will have joy and gladness, and many will rejoice at his birth. For he will be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink. He will also be filled with the Holy Spirit, even from his mother’s womb. And he will turn many of the children of Israel to the Lord their God. He will also go before Him in the spirit and power of Elijah, ‘to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children,’ and the disobedient to the wisdom of the just, to make ready a people prepared for the Lord.”

And Zacharias said to the angel, “How shall I know this? For I am an old man, and my wife is well advanced in years.”

And the angel answered and said to him, :mmph: “I am Gabriel, who stands in the presence of God, and was sent to speak to you and bring you these glad tidings. But behold, you will be mute and not able to speak until the day these things take place, because you did not believe my words which will be fulfilled in their own time.” Lk 1:13–20

Lol, yeah. I have to wonder if there really are fairies hiding down my garden. I've never seen them but maybe they just played a lot of hide & Seek when they were little fairies and got really good at hiding..... come to think of it I've never seen Big Foot in the woods either but you just never know, maybe someone just exorcised their butts out of there.

Oh well :grave:

George Affleck
July 26th, 2015, 08:22 PM
Lol, yeah. I have to wonder if there really are fairies hiding down my garden. I've never seen them but maybe they just played a lot of hide & Seek when they were little fairies and got really good at hiding..... come to think of it I've never seen Big Foot in the woods either but you just never know, maybe someone just exorcised their butts out of there.

Oh well :grave:

Ridicule is such an excellent defence.

freelight
July 26th, 2015, 09:08 PM
~*~*~

To the OP I say that the possibility/probability in each case must examine BOTH 'psychological' and 'spiritual' elements/dynamics involved that are affecting the individual,...so each case will be unique unto itself, since each 'personality' is unique.

Special care and caution is to be given in 'treating' mental illness which does include the possibility of spirit-influences/attachments, etc. Even beyond the traditional/biblical record of demonic possession and the casting out of evil spirits (which Jesus told his disciples to do as part of 'healing the sick')....there are therapists trained in the method of 'spirit-release' which is a kind of exorcism, which identifies spirit-attachments and helps to 'release' them, which in turn affects the freedom and healing of the individual (there is more involved of course on a therapeutic and counseling level, with both the afflicted and the spirits themselves as a kind of communication is involved, giving info. that guides the healing process along. NOTE: that in this process help is afforded to the spirits as well, to move along to the Light, to be set free from their attachments {the host} as well. - this assuming there are earthbound human spirits involved. - there may also be fragmentary sub-selves or energy-fragments of personalities involves as well).

So,...even healers outside of traditionl Chrisianity or a church-setting....can do 'Spirit-release' work, if properly trained. NOTE: This is only after a proper and accurate diagnosis has been rendered and proven (exhausting all other probablilities)...that 'spirits' are involved in any way. Like anything, one must use all the tools available to 'discern' and 'diagnose'....logically....in the best interest of the patient.

~*~*~

Sample book and related works by therapist on 'Spirit-release' here (http://www.amazon.com/Spirit-Release-A-Practical-Handbook/dp/1846940338). (shared for info. on subject )

Soul Rescue Site (http://soulrescuesite.com/index.htm) (info. and resources)

~*~*~

So,...I recognize that both 'mental' and 'spiritual' elements may be present in the case of one who is acting more or less 'insane',....and only a proper research and diagnosis can tell what is the case,...so one can pursue the proper path to healing. Again, this is both rational and logical. Spiritual discernment of course also helps....and don't forget...."discerning of spirits" is one of the gifts of the Holy Spirit mentioned by Paul.

At this point I remain open to learn more in this field, as it relates to 'healing' in general, because IF there are spirits involved in any kind of human experience...then there must be the place for 'spirit-release' therapies (within psychological counseling) and within a more religious/church prayer/healing context....learning from all schools of knowledge on the subject. That's my current view with where I'm at on the subject ;)




pj

Tyrathca
July 26th, 2015, 10:55 PM
As you label yourself an Atheist, you won't understand nor accept my explanation. Suffice it to say it IS distinguishable in the spiritual realm.

What hogwash, I don't need to accept your explanation to gain a rudimentary understanding of it.

I'm interested in how you think, being able to understand someone without necessarily agreeing with them is part of the glue that holds modern society together.

chrysostom
July 27th, 2015, 04:35 AM
What happened when you weren't?

what happens when you don't obey?

what happens when

you don't pay your taxes
you exceed the speed limit
go though a red light

do you actually have to do it to find out?

Jamie Gigliotti
July 27th, 2015, 07:35 AM
You don't have to look far to find the darkness. Who has injured another that they care about or don't and feels good about it? At the moment of injury, part of us know we should not do it, but darkness says go ahead. How does it feel after? If your conscience is not seared, if you are not a psychopath... It never feels good to harm, to wrong another, to be selfish and demean others. Does God then want to shame us into a shameful, depressive, suicudal state for our wrongs. That is the darkness talking seeking to kill and destroy. God tells us We were wrong and that He loves us, and it's never too late to lay down our pride and turn to Him and be cleansed renewed and empowered with His goodness to fight the darkness, the demonic to have victory through His limitless power, love and goodness. The brain is a causality of this war, but don't be deceived there is much more than meets the eye. The darkness is coming after us all. We all know this.
And I say, "though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil, because you are with me." Psalm 23

annabenedetti
July 27th, 2015, 07:43 AM
what happens when you don't obey?

what happens when

you don't pay your taxes
you exceed the speed limit
go though a red light

do you actually have to do it to find out?

I can only answer the second one: I exceed the speed limit all the time, and what happens is it takes less time to get where I'm going.

What I'd really like to know is what would happen if I just kept going.

But you didn't answer the first part of my post.


I doubted everyone
and
everything except the rules and authority without a question


I preferred order to chaos
and
will continue to do so


Why didn't you question the rules and authority? Was it because they represented order and that's what felt comfortable and reassuring?

But how could you doubt everyone without doubting their rules and authority?

Maybe rules and authority provide a framework for life that's comfortable. Familiar. A place for everything, and everything in its place, so stepping outside that box isn't an option for a lot of people, especially if it's deeply ingrained both by genetics and by environment.

I think, regarding religion, and fundamental religion in particular (whatever the denomination), that fear has a lot to do with it. I think the same about conservative rhetoric. That apocalyptic, maranatha-the-world-can't-get-any-worse kind of thinking that can have such a particularly American flavor. And not intending this for you, but probably for me: maybe fear does a pretty good job of stifling doubt. Until it doesn't anymore.

Hedshaker
July 27th, 2015, 07:44 AM
Ridicule is such an excellent defence.

What? Angels and Demons are less ridiculous than fairies and Big foot?

If there's a difference I'm not seeing it.

fzappa13
July 27th, 2015, 07:46 AM
Anna

Children obey out of fear. Adolescents obey out of understanding. Adults obey out of love.

pqmomba8
July 27th, 2015, 08:27 AM
Please notice the responses you receive to this thread from unbelievers designed to encourage you to accept this explanation and consider that source. Also notice the responses you receive from true Bible believers and consider that source as well, if you are indeed looking for a Biblical answer.

All acute or chronic dis-ease (lack of physical perfection) is the result of sin having entered into God's perfect creation and ultimately results in physical death. As a result of 6000 years of mistakes piled on mistakes in the genome, we now have health pressures that have steadily increased and will continue to increase as time goes on. There is no one who is not subject to this law of eventual death.

As a result of the disobedience of the head of our race (Adam), our Creator God has pulled back just enough of His protective and sustaining power to allow us to peek into a universe entirely ruled by a Satanic reign of chaos. Not taking these things seriously usually results in an escalation of Satanic symptoms. Fleeing the devil results in an increase of God's protecting power.

Thus, a common cold, cancer, and demonic possession originate from the same source. The difference lies in the danger posed to the individual. It is Biblical to understand that demonic possession, although curable, is much more dangerous as it poses an immediate threat to the soul - that one is closer to the "event horizon" of hell.

The Father, in elevating His Son to the highest position of authority, has provided a permanent and everlasting solution to Paradise Lost but not everyone will embrace the Son and be cured of sin. Why? Disobedience.

"Just enough"?? Wow.....on the verage, 21,000 children die each day around the world from preventable causes. I'm not even going to into the other horrid stuff that happens daily to the people who had nothing to do with Adam. (OK< so Adam is a ficitonal / mythical character, but let's pretend that the legend was true, just for the sake of the conversation.) Let me repeat the question - what did these CHILDREN do to deserve this? I can see how G-d is just looking down, with folded arms (while a child suffers and dies), "wll, kiddo, you got what was coming to ya"!!! :)

chrysostom
July 27th, 2015, 08:48 AM
Maybe rules and authority provide a framework for life that's comfortable.

maybe? that is a given
and
I can't believe you would question that

so you didn't go to catholic schools
your questions certainly suggest that

I have made my position clear
and
can't see where you are coming from
except
you don't want to be told what to do
neither did eve

Selaphiel
July 27th, 2015, 08:51 AM
you don't want to be told what to do
neither did eve

But Adam did, didn't go much better with him.

chrysostom
July 27th, 2015, 08:57 AM
But Adam did, didn't go much better with him.

so what is your point?

there are consequences when you don't obey

I have already made that point

Selaphiel
July 27th, 2015, 08:59 AM
so what is your point?

there are consequences when you don't obey

I have already made that point

Adam did obey, he obeyed the wrong person. There is no inherent virtue in obedience, obedience does not exempt you from critical thinking and questioning.

chrysostom
July 27th, 2015, 09:01 AM
Adam did obey, he obeyed the wrong person.

that is nonsense
you are wasting time and space

annabenedetti
July 27th, 2015, 09:10 AM
that is nonsense
you are wasting time and space

No. It's not nonsense, and Sela doesn't waste either time or space. He posts rarely but I'm glad when he does because it's always worth the wait.

chrysostom
July 27th, 2015, 09:19 AM
No. It's not nonsense, and Sela doesn't waste either time or space. He posts rarely but I'm glad when he does because it's always worth the wait.

we were talking about rules and authority

eve had neither

annabenedetti
July 27th, 2015, 09:40 AM
And you sidestepped the question again. I asked you twice why you didn't question rules and authority, and how you could "doubt everyone" without doubting their rules and authority.




maybe? that is a given
and
I can't believe you would question that

I don't question the value in them depending on context. I said "maybe" out of courtesy, trying not to tell you what you thought. But you went all black and white, as if there was nothing in between "rules" and "no rules." Come on, I know you know better than that. And you should know that there's a difference between rules and routine. One implies penalty for non-compliance, the other implies comfortable familiarity. Routine is very reassuring for people of all ages, but children especially. They find security in knowing what to expect.


so you didn't go to catholic schools
your questions certainly suggest that Only about three years were public schools, the rest were Catholic or Christian. I went to a lot of different schools. When the ball on the school roulette wheel bounced on Catholic, there I went.

I remember one Catholic school having to kneel on the ground and have my school skirt hemmed to where it met the ground. That was in the school rules, but no one really paid attention to them except my mom. So when I got to school, I rolled up the waistband on my skirt so I'd look like the rest of the girls. One day I forgot to roll it back down when I got picked up after school, and boy, did I get in trouble for that. :chuckle: Also, in third grade my parents pulled me out of a different Catholic school because the nun yanked me out of my desk and spanked me. Memories... But I was a good kid overall.


I have made my position clear
and
can't see where you are coming from
except
you don't want to be told what to do
neither did eveI don't think you've made your position clear at all, since you haven't explained how you can doubt everyone, but not doubt what they do. They're suspect, but their rules aren't? That doesn't make sense.

And about Eve: Because she broke the rules and ate a piece of fruit, she brought death and eternal damnation down on the heads of millions/billions of unsuspecting people? Or is her story the easiest excuse for men to subjugate women that the world has ever seen?

annabenedetti
July 27th, 2015, 09:41 AM
we were talking about rules and authority

eve had neither

:chuckle: That's just so rich. :chuckle:

Ben Masada
July 27th, 2015, 09:45 AM
Mental illness, of course! There is no such a thing as literal demonic
possessions.

annabenedetti
July 27th, 2015, 09:52 AM
"Just enough"?? Wow.....on the verage, 21,000 children die each day around the world from preventable causes. I'm not even going to into the other horrid stuff that happens daily to the people who had nothing to do with Adam. (OK< so Adam is a ficitonal / mythical character, but let's pretend that the legend was true, just for the sake of the conversation.) Let me repeat the question - what did these CHILDREN do to deserve this? I can see how G-d is just looking down, with folded arms (while a child suffers and dies), "wll, kiddo, you got what was coming to ya"!!! :)

I was thinking something along those lines, about people talking about looking to the sky for the return of the Lord - while looking right over the heads of countless souls suffering their hell right here on earth, and those poor souls not even knowing that when they're finished with this hell, they'll be shuttled off to an eternal hell in a world beyond.

annabenedetti
July 27th, 2015, 10:00 AM
Children obey out of fear. Adolescents obey out of understanding. Adults obey out of love.

No, I don't think I can agree with that at all. None of those are absolutes.

Not all children obey out of fear, and plenty of adults do. Think about it. Not all adolescents understand, and very many adults don't obey out of love.

You can take all those and shake them up and you might have some generalities emerge from almost unlimited possible combinations - but not those three absolutes.

Town Heretic
July 27th, 2015, 10:46 AM
I believe in possession for the same reason I believe in the resurrection and I don't believe that Jesus threw mental illness into swine. So, what am I left with? An approach born of two particular certainties. First, that God exists and that His context is the means by which the world and our lives are properly understood and second, that within that context science is a remarkably helpful tool for addressing mechanism and particular, to the extent of its limitations.

Does it follow that I don't believe in mental illness? Of course not. I've seen its impact on friends, one of whom was committed and another who has struggled with bipolar disorder and managed to find peace with the help of medical assistance. He runs a mission. Does it follow that the existence of mental illness precludes the existence of possession? Of course not. Should we pursue the known first? Of course we should.

There was a time when men thought physical deformity and sickness itself was a spiritual matter. Some still do, but science has given us a deeper understanding of our biological mechanism and psychiatry has attempted and is attempting to do the same with our understanding of how that biology impacts and is impacted in terms of behavior/cognition. Much of it is to the good and helpful.


Beyond scripture I think of M. Scott Peck, the late and famous author of The Road Less Traveled. He was an atheist then Buddhist (including the time when this first and likely most famous was written) and then became a Christian by his early 40s and remained so until his death. Peck was a Harvard trained physician and a psychiatrist who, as so many among either set will, held the notion that demonic possession was simply and entirely a misdiagnosis by the superstitious of a fractured mind, even after his conversion.

"I had come to believe in the reality of benign spirit or God, as well as the reality of human goodness. I'd come to believe distinctly in the reality of human evil, and that left me an obvious hole in my thinking. Namely was there such a thing as evil spirit, or the devil specifically? In common with 99.99 percent of psychiatrists and with 80 percent of Catholic priests--as confidentially polled back in 1960, the figure would be much higher now--I did not believe in the devil."


He held that view for some time. Then he had experiences that his training could not, to his mind, account for. He wrote briefly about them in People of the Lie, an excellent book itself, but followed with Glimpses of the Devil, which dealt directly with the topic at hand. I think it might help you widen the net.

Hawkins
July 27th, 2015, 10:58 AM
Certain spirits in Hades have obsession about a human body which they once owned one. They are keen on learning how to possess a human body. On the other hand, since certain angels know how to 'control' a human body because one of their jobs is to appear bodily as humans. As a result, certain fallen angels know how to do so.

The contact of the evil spirits starts with an invitation. The spirits in Hades are not allowed to actively contact humans in our realm. However, when humans try to contact them (as a sin), it becomes possible to establish a link between humans and the spirits. Human sinning is always allowed on earth. Somehow, human 'invitation' usually take place in remote area or less civilized area where people believe such things superstitiously.

The spirits in Hades thus explore both, they acquired the ability from the fallen angels on how to possess humans, and they tried their best for humans to make an invitation to establish the 'link'.

This is the situation before Jesus time. After Jesus conquered death. It's possible that stricter rules are applied that to avoid this to be triggered by a sinful invitation which usually without the consent from the human side (humans who made such an invitation may be without their own awareness at all). Humans may still be able to send an invitation with consent, say, by playing demon boards and etc.

On the other hand, as human population grows less and less areas are considered 'remote' or 'less civilized' in favor of such a kind of invitations. This makes the true demonic possession cases really scarce today.

By the very nature of history, no one can go back to the time before Jesus to acquire the evidence. You need very strong faith in order to apply today's situation to the time before Jesus to draw the conclusion that demon possession as a whole never occurred. The situation is similar to the practicing of black magic by the witches. You won't find such a witch today, it however by no means says that they did not exist in the past.

Jamie Gigliotti
July 27th, 2015, 11:38 AM
"Just enough"?? Wow.....on the verage, 21,000 children die each day around the world from preventable causes. I'm not even going to into the other horrid stuff that happens daily to the people who had nothing to do with Adam. (OK< so Adam is a ficitonal / mythical character, but let's pretend that the legend was true, just for the sake of the conversation.) Let me repeat the question - what did these CHILDREN do to deserve this? I can see how G-d is just looking down, with folded arms (while a child suffers and dies), "wll, kiddo, you got what was coming to ya"!!! :)

What did we do to deserve a chance at life and love?

Go create some robots. Program them to do what you want. Any relational love created? Arguing with God, wether it is good to allow evil in the hopes of love being created is futile. Most love love their freedom and desire love, but disdain the creator of it all. You love children and want to protect them. Awesome!!! Go do it!

serpentdove
July 27th, 2015, 11:42 AM
What did we do to deserve a chance at life and love?

Go create some robots. Program them to do what you want. Any relational love created? Arguing with God, whether it is good to allow evil in the hopes of love being created is futile...It's not sin to allow for sin. Ge 1:31

Jamie Gigliotti
July 27th, 2015, 11:43 AM
Certain spirits in Hades have obsession about a human body which they once owned one. They are keen on learning how to possess a human body. On the other hand, since certain angels know how to 'control' a human body because one of their jobs is to appear bodily as humans. As a result, certain fallen angels know how to do so.

The contact of the evil spirits starts with an invitation. The spirits in Hades are not allowed to actively contact humans in our realm. However, when humans try to contact them (as a sin), it becomes possible to establish a link between humans and the spirits. Human sinning is always allowed on earth. Somehow, human 'invitation' usually take place in remote area or less civilized area where people believe such things superstitiously.

The spirits in Hades thus explore both, they acquired the ability from the fallen angels on how to possess humans, and they tried their best for humans to make an invitation to establish the 'link'.

This is the situation before Jesus time. After Jesus conquered death. It's possible that stricter rules are applied that to avoid this to be triggered by a sinful invitation which usually without the consent from the human side (humans who made such an invitation may be without their own awareness at all). Humans may still be able to send an invitation with consent, say, by playing demon boards and etc.

On the other hand, as human population grows less and less areas are considered 'remote' or 'less civilized' in favor of such a kind of invitations. This makes the true demonic possession cases really scarce today.

By the very nature of history, no one can go back to the time before Jesus to acquire the evidence. You need very strong faith in order to apply today's situation to the time before Jesus to draw the conclusion that demon possession as a whole never occurred. The situation is similar to the practicing of black magic by the witches. You won't find such a witch today, it however by no means says that they did not exist in the past.

There some that practice black witchcraft and Satanic worship today.

Jamie Gigliotti
July 27th, 2015, 11:44 AM
It's not sin to allow for sin. Ge 1:31

Agreed. Just showing the faulty logic.

Selaphiel
July 27th, 2015, 11:45 AM
The story of the unclean spirit that is named Legion that is cast into the pigs is interesting. I do however you miss the point of the story if you interpret it as a literal story of an unclean spirit, rather than a story with symbolic significance. The name Legion is not a coincidence to first century Jews living under Roman occupation.

How are we to conceive of possession in the first place? Even a more sophisticated conception of the demonic as fallen forms of intellect. How do they possess another being? Maybe you can conceive of them as influences on human intellects as temptation. But to speak of possession is to say that one mind is at least temporarily consumed or subjugated by another. How do you conceive of that?

You do not even have to rule out the existence of the demonic even if you are skeptical of the concept of possession.

serpentdove
July 27th, 2015, 11:55 AM
Agreed. Just showing the faulty logic.Some will blame God for sin being in the world--God made me a sinner. It's his fault (Ge 3:12).

What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy (Ro 9:22–23A).

George Affleck
July 27th, 2015, 11:57 AM
"Just enough"?? Wow.....on the verage, 21,000 children die each day around the world from preventable causes. I'm not even going to into the other horrid stuff that happens daily to the people who had nothing to do with Adam.

You plant a garden in your backyard. Do the plants have a judicial right to pass judgement on your decisions of when to weed it, water it, prune it, or how to harvest? Does the creation know more than the Creator? If, as the Bible asserts, for those who love God, physical death is the beginning of an eternity of perfection with Him, our concern should be to show everyone the love and mercy of God so as not to block their way to Him, not to deny His existence. Atheists attempt to involve as many others as possible in their foolishness in order to make them as unprofitable to God as they are; perpetuating the original blunder. You are deliberately walking the wrong side of the street and you imagine you can blame God for that.

Your suggestion that we have nothing to do with Adam is like saying; "I bought a package of carrot seeds for my garden, but, of course, I don't expect them to be carrots at all. In fact, they may turn out to be cabbages for all I know." Seeds carry the characteristics of their parents, in case you hadn't noticed.


(OK< so Adam is a ficitonal / mythical character, but let's pretend that the legend was true, just for the sake of the conversation.) Let me repeat the question - what did these CHILDREN do to deserve this?

Deserve? As an atheist, you do not get to borrow Biblical values of justice and right and wrong to argue your worldview. These values belong to believers and the Bible. If you wish to argue justice, please formulate your own values from your own beliefs and present them if you can. To be consistent, you cannot argue right and wrong because, for you, there is, objectively, no such thing except permanent values you covertly steal from God.

And, whatever you do, do not use the magical word "self-evident". In the atheistic religion, there is no such thing nor is there agreement concerning it.


I can see how G-d is just looking down, with folded arms (while a child suffers and dies), "wll, kiddo, you got what was coming to ya"!!! :)

You are misled simply because you don't want to know what the Bible really says. This childish image is your own fabrication. You want the God of the Bible to be unfair so you can justify your position. Your question is the same as; "If God is good, why do bad things happen?". This question has been answered a million times over and you will have no part of it because you prefer your ignorance.

God will never judge unfairly. If He could, He would not be the God of the Bible. You have fashioned a weak, impotent, facsimile, overlayed it with brass, and when it does not meet your expectations, you reject it. The problem is that your choice, from the beginning, was to manufacture a god that you would not like.

Jamie Gigliotti
July 27th, 2015, 11:58 AM
The story of the unclean spirit that is named Legion that is cast into the pigs is interesting. I do however you miss the point of the story if you interpret it as a literal story of an unclean spirit, rather than a story with symbolic significance. The name Legion is not a coincidence to first century Jews living under Roman occupation.

How are we to conceive of possession in the first place? Even a more sophisticated conception of the demonic as fallen forms of intellect. How do they possess another being? Maybe you can conceive of them as influences on human intellects as temptation. But to speak of possession is to say that one mind is at least temporarily consumed or subjugated by another. How do you conceive of that?

You do not even have to rule out the existence of the demonic even if you are skeptical of the concept of possession.

The bible is clear the material body is a dwelling place. In the case of those in Christ, a temple for God, as an adopted Son born of His Holy Spirit. The alternative of a demon dwelling can then be seen.

Trying to wrap our brains around the Spiritual realm will not happen. Just as us fully understanding God. Physicists theorize of parallel realities in other dimensions. But we have limited abilities to understand all that is.

Hawkins
July 27th, 2015, 11:59 AM
There some that practice black witchcraft and Satanic worship today.

I think that it's more spiritual in nature than magical as in the past. Knowledge requires accumulation, it requires the whole thing to be really active for such a kind of knowledge to be acquired. A bunch of them claim practicing it by no means says that they can actually acquire the knowledge. Some of the secrets may be long lost. Of course, it's still possible that some can acquire it from some kind of ancient scrolls written down at the time when the witches/black magics were truly active.

Hawkins
July 27th, 2015, 12:02 PM
The story of the unclean spirit that is named Legion that is cast into the pigs is interesting. I do however you miss the point of the story if you interpret it as a literal story of an unclean spirit, rather than a story with symbolic significance. The name Legion is not a coincidence to first century Jews living under Roman occupation.

How are we to conceive of possession in the first place? Even a more sophisticated conception of the demonic as fallen forms of intellect. How do they possess another being? Maybe you can conceive of them as influences on human intellects as temptation. But to speak of possession is to say that one mind is at least temporarily consumed or subjugated by another. How do you conceive of that?

You do not even have to rule out the existence of the demonic even if you are skeptical of the concept of possession.

That depends on how you comprehend the functionality of a soul. A soul resides on the other side/realm which somehow can be readily accessible.

The use of "Legion" is to illustrate that a human can be 'occupied' by multiple spirits.

Ask Mr. Religion
July 27th, 2015, 12:20 PM
Are you a biblical literalist? Jonah in the belly of the whale, for example?

Yes I am. Now if you mean by literal something wooden that ignores the surrounding context, genre, etc., then no. The account of Jonah is historical narrative, so unless one denies the verbal plenary inspiration of the Bible, there is no other interpretation other than the Jonah account actually happened. To claim the Jonah account is allegory or metaphor ignores the context and lack of textual clues supporting said views. To claim the account is merely God accommodating finite minds implies God's penmen were permitted error under the guidance of the Spirit as they wrote. The text in question (the narrative of Jonah) does not pertain to different perspectives in a narrative, but to narration. To claim there is inspired and uninspired speech in the narration is to claim that the penmen were not fully inspired.

Every proper exposition of the doctrine of inspiration of the Bible at least includes within it an affirmation that the errors of the penmen were suppressed. I don't need to know the single true interpretation of every passage in order to affirm the doctrine of plenary inspiration. This point is not open to debate. To claim otherwise is to affirm that the narrator's lack of knowledge found its way into the text of Scripture. Yikes!

AMR

annabenedetti
July 27th, 2015, 03:00 PM
Yes I am. Now if you mean by literal something wooden that ignores the surrounding context, genre, etc., then no. The account of Jonah is historical narrative, so unless one denies the verbal plenary inspiration of the Bible, there is no other interpretation other than the Jonah account actually happened. To claim the Jonah account is allegory or metaphor ignores the context and lack of textual clues supporting said views. To claim the account is merely God accommodating finite minds implies God's penmen were permitted error under the guidance of the Spirit as they wrote. The text in question (the narrative of Jonah) does not pertain to different perspectives in a narrative, but to narration. To claim there is inspired and uninspired speech in the narration is to claim that the penmen were not fully inspired.

Every proper exposition of the doctrine of inspiration of the Bible at least includes within it an affirmation that the errors of the penmen were suppressed. I don't need to know the single true interpretation of every passage in order to affirm the doctrine of plenary inspiration. This point is not open to debate. To claim otherwise is to affirm that the narrator's lack of knowledge found its way into the text of Scripture. Yikes!

AMR

Thank you. I don't believe the story of Jonah in the whale. I know I'm not alone in that; I don't know how you'd debate the issue with a theologian who doesn't view it as a literal narration, and I'm aware that I don't have the ability to do that.

annabenedetti
July 27th, 2015, 03:12 PM
I believe in possession for the same reason I believe in the resurrection and I don't believe that Jesus threw mental illness into swine. So, what am I left with?

I don't think for a believer that those are the only two choices you have. You could believe in the resurrection and believe the swine running over the cliff are an ancient people's allegorical use of a natural event.


Does it follow that I don't believe in mental illness? Of course not. Nor would I make that assumption.


There was a time when men thought physical deformity and sickness itself was a spiritual matter. Some still do, but science has given us a deeper understanding of our biological mechanism and psychiatry has attempted and is attempting to do the same with our understanding of how that biology impacts and is impacted in terms of behavior/cognition. Much of it is to the good and helpful.
That's where I'm going with this.


Beyond scripture I think of M. Scott Peck, the late and famous author of The Road Less Traveled. He was an atheist then Buddhist (including the time when this first and likely most famous was written) and then became a Christian by his early 40s and remained so until his death. Peck was a Harvard trained physician and a psychiatrist who, as so many among either set will, held the notion that demonic possession was simply and entirely a misdiagnosis by the superstitious of a fractured mind, even after his conversion.

"I had come to believe in the reality of benign spirit or God, as well as the reality of human goodness. I'd come to believe distinctly in the reality of human evil, and that left me an obvious hole in my thinking. Namely was there such a thing as evil spirit, or the devil specifically? In common with 99.99 percent of psychiatrists and with 80 percent of Catholic priests--as confidentially polled back in 1960, the figure would be much higher now--I did not believe in the devil."


He held that view for some time. Then he had experiences that his training could not, to his mind, account for. He wrote briefly about them in People of the Lie, an excellent book itself, but followed with Glimpses of the Devil, which dealt directly with the topic at hand. I think it might help you widen the net.I remember reading The People of the Lie and talking about it here. I'd been uncomfortable with the book as it headed in the direction of exorcism, and now that three semesters of psychology separate me from the first reading of it, I suspect I'd find it even more troubling on a second reading - but here's what I wrote a year and a half ago:




I've finished it now, and have to say I liked the first half better than the last half because in the later chapters he gets into demon possession and I have reservations about some of what he said.

Also, his psychoanalytical approach to psychology was by definition Freudian and much of Freud's theories that Peck refers to have been discarded/discounted by psychologists today and a couple things he said in reference to the Oedipus complex and also his therapy methods, what he did or would do, were disturbing. It was at that chapter that I started pulling back.

Also, and this may not seem like much, he said in the preface of the book that he used a neuter pronoun for Satan. Oddly, he also used a neuter pronoun for children:

"Treated badly by its parents, a child will usually assume that it is bad."

Overall, I have very mixed thoughts.

Angel4Truth
July 27th, 2015, 03:12 PM
What if there is no such thing as "demonic possession?"

Do you believe this to be a lie then?


Mark 5:1-20
Jesus Restores a Demon-Possessed Man

5 They went across the lake to the region of the Gerasenes. 2 When Jesus got out of the boat, a man with an impure spirit came from the tombs to meet him. 3 This man lived in the tombs, and no one could bind him anymore, not even with a chain. 4 For he had often been chained hand and foot, but he tore the chains apart and broke the irons on his feet. No one was strong enough to subdue him. 5 Night and day among the tombs and in the hills he would cry out and cut himself with stones.

6 When he saw Jesus from a distance, he ran and fell on his knees in front of him. 7 He shouted at the top of his voice, “What do you want with me, Jesus, Son of the Most High God? In God’s name don’t torture me!” 8 For Jesus had said to him, “Come out of this man, you impure spirit!”

9 Then Jesus asked him, “What is your name?”

“My name is Legion,” he replied, “for we are many.” 10 And he begged Jesus again and again not to send them out of the area.

11 A large herd of pigs was feeding on the nearby hillside. 12 The demons begged Jesus, “Send us among the pigs; allow us to go into them.” 13 He gave them permission, and the impure spirits came out and went into the pigs. The herd, about two thousand in number, rushed down the steep bank into the lake and were drowned.

14 Those tending the pigs ran off and reported this in the town and countryside, and the people went out to see what had happened. 15 When they came to Jesus, they saw the man who had been possessed by the legion of demons, sitting there, dressed and in his right mind; and they were afraid. 16 Those who had seen it told the people what had happened to the demon-possessed man—and told about the pigs as well. 17 Then the people began to plead with Jesus to leave their region.

18 As Jesus was getting into the boat, the man who had been demon-possessed begged to go with him. 19 Jesus did not let him, but said, “Go home to your own people and tell them how much the Lord has done for you, and how he has had mercy on you.” 20 So the man went away and began to tell in the Decapolis how much Jesus had done for him. And all the people were amazed.

Perhaps heeding the words of the Lord, would be better than heeding the many voices working against Him.

annabenedetti
July 27th, 2015, 03:18 PM
Do you believe this to be a lie then?


See my above to TH.

Angel4Truth
July 27th, 2015, 03:24 PM
See my above to TH.

Doesnt adress that Jesus spoke of Demon possession Himself. Do you believe His words were made up?

Matthew 12:43-45

“When the unclean spirit has gone out of a person, it passes through waterless places seeking rest, but finds none. Then it says, ‘I will return to my house from which I came.’ And when it comes, it finds the house empty, swept, and put in order. Then it goes and brings with it seven other spirits more evil than itself, and they enter and dwell there, and the last state of that person is worse than the first. So also will it be with this evil generation.”

Matthew 17:14-20
And when they came to the crowd, a man came up to him and, kneeling before him, said, “Lord, have mercy on my son, for he is an epileptic and he suffers terribly. For often he falls into the fire, and often into the water. And I brought him to your disciples, and they could not heal him.” And Jesus answered, “O faithless and twisted generation, how long am I to be with you? How long am I to bear with you? Bring him here to me.” And Jesus rebuked the demon, and it came out of him, and the boy was healed instantly. ...

Matthew 10:1

And He called to him His twelve disciples and gave them authority over unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal every disease and every affliction.

I could post more, but please do tell us what you believe is being said in these, are they made up?

StanJ
July 27th, 2015, 03:25 PM
I don't think for a believer that those are the only two choices you have. You could believe in the resurrection and believe the swine running over the cliff are an ancient people's allegorical use of a natural event.

Nor would I make that assumption.
That's where I'm going with this.

I remember reading The People of the Lie and talking about it here. I'd been uncomfortable with the book as it headed in the direction of exorcism, and now that three semesters of psychology separate me from the reading of it, I suspect I'd find it even more troubling - but here's what I wrote a year and a half ago:


WOW....talk about mental gymnastics!

annabenedetti
July 27th, 2015, 03:30 PM
WOW....talk about mental gymnastics!

I know! You sure are talented!

StanJ
July 27th, 2015, 03:31 PM
I know! You sure are talented!


Do you know what a meme is?

annabenedetti
July 27th, 2015, 03:32 PM
Doesnt adress that Jesus spoke of Demon possession Himself. Do you believe His words were made up?

Matthew 12:43-45

“When the unclean spirit has gone out of a person, it passes through waterless places seeking rest, but finds none. Then it says, ‘I will return to my house from which I came.’ And when it comes, it finds the house empty, swept, and put in order. Then it goes and brings with it seven other spirits more evil than itself, and they enter and dwell there, and the last state of that person is worse than the first. So also will it be with this evil generation.”

Matthew 17:14-20
And when they came to the crowd, a man came up to him and, kneeling before him, said, “Lord, have mercy on my son, for he is an epileptic and he suffers terribly. For often he falls into the fire, and often into the water. And I brought him to your disciples, and they could not heal him.” And Jesus answered, “O faithless and twisted generation, how long am I to be with you? How long am I to bear with you? Bring him here to me.” And Jesus rebuked the demon, and it came out of him, and the boy was healed instantly. ...

Matthew 10:1

And He called to him His twelve disciples and gave them authority over unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal every disease and every affliction.

I could post more, but please do tell us what you believe is being said in these, are they made up?

I'll give your post some thought.

Bright Raven
July 27th, 2015, 03:34 PM
People can be mentally ill and not possessed of the Devil.

StanJ
July 27th, 2015, 03:36 PM
People can be mentally ill and not possessed of the Devil.

Yes of course they can, and are.

annabenedetti
July 27th, 2015, 03:42 PM
People can be mentally ill and not possessed of the Devil.

What I'm getting at is the idea of people who've been thought to be possessed who were actually mentally ill.

Assumed or accused - or both - of something spiritual when it was actually something biological?

StanJ
July 27th, 2015, 03:45 PM
What I'm getting at is the idea of people who've been thought to be possessed who were actually mentally ill.
Assumed or accused - or both - of something spiritual when it was actually something biological?


Well then maybe some good old fashioned corroborative citations would help support your assertions here?
Simply making accusations is NOT substantive at all.

Hedshaker
July 27th, 2015, 03:49 PM
People can be mentally ill and not possessed of the Devil.


What I'm getting at is the idea of people who've been thought to be possessed who were actually mentally ill.

Assumed or accused - or both - of something spiritual when it was actually something biological?

And the question is, how does he tell the difference?

RevTestament
July 27th, 2015, 03:50 PM
Not all Christians believe in original sin. Catholics do, but not all Christians. What do those who don't believe in original sin say about sin and death?Hi Anna.
They usually say God does not punish the children for the sins of their father, like the Bible does. Original sin is a doctrine - not biblical truth.


Catholics baptize babies for that specific reason, to wash away original sin. Catholic doctrine holds out hope for heaven for unbaptized babies, but doesn't guarantee their salvation.

What kind of God would deny heaven to an innocent baby?A Catholic one? A god of creeds and doctrines of men?
Since God does not hold innocent babies accountable for the sins of others, they cannot die in sin. Christ saves them in their innocence.


What kind of doctrine would inflict illness and death on someone for sins they weren't guilty of? I know these aren't original questions at all, but they're my questions right now.And very good questions they are! Physical death was brought into the world on account of the fall. Thus, man is made in mortality. It is not a punishment for sin, but a consequence of the fall, that man's body became mortal and fallen. Thus, we were offered an escape through the tree of life or Christ.
It is important to try to understand what YHWH Elohim said once man had eaten of the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil:

Gen 3:22 ¶And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil:

Without being tested and tried and experiencing evil, man could not "become as one of us," and would fail in the reason for our earthly creation. Orthodoxy teaches this is evil trickery and temptation of the serpent. Orthodoxy has completely misinterpreted the story of Adam and Eve....

fzappa13
July 27th, 2015, 04:44 PM
No, I don't think I can agree with that at all. None of those are absolutes.

Not all children obey out of fear, and plenty of adults do. Think about it. Not all adolescents understand, and very many adults don't obey out of love.

You can take all those and shake them up and you might have some generalities emerge from almost unlimited possible combinations - but not those three absolutes.

Yes, the are exceptions to every rule. That said, I was trying to suggest to you that the life cycle of a human individual mirrors that of us as a species. Jesus ushered us into puberty. The best is yet to come.

George Affleck
July 27th, 2015, 10:22 PM
Thank you. I don't believe the story of Jonah in the whale. I know I'm not alone in that; I don't know how you'd debate the issue with a theologian who doesn't view it as a literal narration, and I'm aware that I don't have the ability to do that.

Hey Anna,

I apologize for jumping in here. Quick question.

Do you think it is possible that the story of Jonah is historical narrative and actually happened, or that it is completely impossible?

Town Heretic
July 28th, 2015, 07:22 AM
I don't think for a believer that those are the only two choices you have. You could believe in the resurrection and believe the swine running over the cliff are an ancient people's allegorical use of a natural event.
Two problems with that approach as I see it. The first is that it doesn't solve the dilemma Angel notes. The second is that there's no reason to separate the resurrection from that miracle in terms of how it's approached/addressed within the narrative. I do believe in literary devices and that the Bible contains a good many, along with certain rhetorical traditions, but I don't think we can simply assign those without cause and the cause would be found within the context of the parable or other less than literal illustration of a principle.


I remember reading The People of the Lie and talking about it here. I'd been uncomfortable with the book as it headed in the direction of exorcism, and now that three semesters of psychology separate me from the first reading of it, I suspect I'd find it even more troubling on a second reading - but here's what I wrote a year and a half ago:
I remember. And however a discipline changes in approach (or for however long) it seems to me that we're still left with a potent testimony, not by an ancient person struggling for a context but someone with among the best educations within our modern understanding confronting a thing he (for a number of reasons, some striking, given in that book) can't comfortably lay at the feet of mental illness, a man driven by that and other experiences out of a comfortable academic mindset and into a belief not only in evil, but in a particular and willful manifestation of it. One that the book of those ancient peoples confirms.

Good to have you back on he boards for a bit. :D

bybee
July 28th, 2015, 11:54 AM
Two problems with that approach as I see it. The first is that it doesn't solve the dilemma Angle notes. The second is that there's no reason to separate the resurrection from that miracle in terms of how it's approached/addressed within the narrative. I do believe in literary devices and that the Bible contains a good many, along with certain rhetorical traditions, but I don't think we can simply assign those without cause and the cause would be found within the context of the parable or other less than literal illustration of a principle.


I remember. And however a discipline changes in approach (or for however long) it seems to me that we're still left with a potent testimony, not by an ancient person struggling for a context but someone with among the best educations within our modern understanding confronting a thing he (for a number of reasons, some striking, given in that book) can't comfortably lay at the feet of mental illness, a man driven by that and other experiences out of a comfortable academic mindset and into a belief not only in evil, but in a particular and willful manifestation of it. One that the book of those ancient people's confirms.

Good to have you back on he boards for a bit. :D

This is a very difficult subject because of its ramifications in either direction.
However, I have looked into the eyes of evil that took my breath away. I don't really know what it is but it is terrifying when encountered.

StanJ
July 28th, 2015, 11:59 AM
This is a very difficult subject because of its ramifications in either direction.
However, I have looked into the eyes of evil that took my breath away. I don't really know what it is but it is terrifying when encountered.


Agreed. Only the fool hardy would think otherwise.

pqmomba8
July 28th, 2015, 01:58 PM
You plant a garden in your backyard. Do the plants have a judicial right to pass judgement on your decisions of when to weed it, water it, prune it, or how to harvest? Does the creation know more than the Creator? If, as the Bible asserts, for those who love God, physical death is the beginning of an eternity of perfection with Him, our concern should be to show everyone the love and mercy of God so as not to block their way to Him, not to deny His existence. Atheists attempt to involve as many others as possible in their foolishness in order to make them as unprofitable to God as they are; perpetuating the original blunder. You are deliberately walking the wrong side of the street and you imagine you can blame God for that.

Your suggestion that we have nothing to do with Adam is like saying; "I bought a package of carrot seeds for my garden, but, of course, I don't expect them to be carrots at all. In fact, they may turn out to be cabbages for all I know." Seeds carry the characteristics of their parents, in case you hadn't noticed.



Deserve? As an atheist, you do not get to borrow Biblical values of justice and right and wrong to argue your worldview. These values belong to believers and the Bible. If you wish to argue justice, please formulate your own values from your own beliefs and present them if you can. To be consistent, you cannot argue right and wrong because, for you, there is, objectively, no such thing except permanent values you covertly steal from God.

And, whatever you do, do not use the magical word "self-evident". In the atheistic religion, there is no such thing nor is there agreement concerning it.



You are misled simply because you don't want to know what the Bible really says. This childish image is your own fabrication. You want the God of the Bible to be unfair so you can justify your position. Your question is the same as; "If God is good, why do bad things happen?". This question has been answered a million times over and you will have no part of it because you prefer your ignorance.

God will never judge unfairly. If He could, He would not be the God of the Bible. You have fashioned a weak, impotent, facsimile, overlayed it with brass, and when it does not meet your expectations, you reject it. The problem is that your choice, from the beginning, was to manufacture a god that you would not like.

You plant a garden in your backyard. Do the plants have a judicial right to pass judgement on your decisions of when to weed it, water it, prune it, or how to harvest?

Holy Molly - did you give ANY thought to this when you replied? :) LOL Talk about a serious case of false equivocation!!! (Probably the worst I've ever read!!) So you are comparing the non-thinking simple cell life with the highest evolved being capable of an abstract thought? Seriously dude (or dudette).........

Shalom!

freelight
July 28th, 2015, 02:21 PM
What I'm getting at is the idea of people who've been thought to be possessed who were actually mentally ill.

Assumed or accused - or both - of something spiritual when it was actually something biological?

As explained earlier here (http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4397619&postcount=61),....one must do both 'psychological(biological/physiological) and 'spiritual' research into the matter, and in each individual case....then it can be ascertained by the data the best method of treatment to facilitate the healing and deliverance of the person. Again, logical and rational. Some therapists trained in 'Spirit-release' therapy assist persons who have spirit-attachments in freeing the individuals and assisting in the healing and freedom of the disincarnate spirits as well,...its a rather 'holistic' approach.

A church member can use both healing prayers from their ministers/congregation and from trained therapists in psychology and 'spirit-release' techniques as well. The latter spectrum of therapy does sometimes include accepting the concept of 'past-lives', sub-selves, created personalities, earth-bound entities, etc....so it works from this larger context using as much data that can be gathered to apply the most effective healing treatment. If enough research is done to include such in any individual case, why not use that info. to effect the proper healing? Without some info. healing will not occur, so its best to learn as much as possible of BOTH 'psychological' and 'spiritual' elements that are involved.

Furthermore, your own church has 'exorcists' and 'rites for exorcism' (a special order),...so they definitely believe they are exorcising evil spirits, FULLY accepting that in some cases there is demonic possession or obsession (at varying levels), and that in these cases sometimes EXORCISM is necessary. So,...you would need to stay open-minded and consider all of this (stay open to research), which a mere 'dismissal' would be premature or foolish in the long run.




pj

Hedshaker
July 28th, 2015, 03:10 PM
As explained earlier here (http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4397619&postcount=61),....one must do both 'psychological(biological/physiological) and 'spiritual' research into the matter, and in each individual case....then it can be ascertained by the data the best method of treatment to facilitate the healing and deliverance of the person. Again, logical and rational. Some therapists trained in 'Spirit-release' therapy assist persons who have spirit-attachments in freeing the individuals and assisting in the healing and freedom of the disincarnate spirits as well,...its a rather 'holistic' approach.

A church member can use both healing prayers from their ministers/congregation and from trained therapists in psychology and 'spirit-release' techniques as well. The latter spectrum of therapy does sometimes include accepting the concept of 'past-lives', sub-selves, created personalities, earth-bound entities, etc....so it works from this larger context using as much data that can be gathered to apply the most effective healing treatment. If enough research is done to include such in any individual case, why not use that info. to effect the proper healing? Without some info. healing will not occur, so its best to learn as much as possible of BOTH 'psychological' and 'spiritual' elements that are involved.

Furthermore, your own church has 'exorcists' and 'rites for exorcism' (a special order),...so they definitely believe they are exorcising evil spirits, FULLY accepting that in some cases there is demonic possession or obsession (at varying levels), and that in these cases sometimes EXORCISM is necessary. So,...you would need to stay open-minded and consider all of this (stay open to research), which a mere 'dismissal' would be premature or foolish in the long run.
pj


You know, I'm wondering if a totally placid, none obtrusive, none violent exorcism might have some sort of placebo effect. But then I remind myself we are dealing with someone with mental health issues.... so no. Don't do it. Hand it over to genuine psychiatric professionals. You wouldn't trust magic to heal someone with, say cancer, so don't do it with some one with mental health issues.

There is no such thing proven by science as "spiritual issues". You might as well hand the problem over to a witch doctor

freelight
July 28th, 2015, 03:54 PM
You know, I'm wondering if a totally placid, none obtrusive, none violent exorcism might have some sort of placebo effect. But then I remind myself we are dealing with someone with mental health issues.... so no. Don't do it. Hand it over to genuine psychiatric professionals. You wouldn't trust magic to heal someone with, say cancer, so don't do it with some one with mental health issues.

There is no such thing proven by science as "spiritual issues". You might as well hand the problem over to a witch doctor

:)

Lets be cognizant of the vast domain and dynamics of 'consciousness', as 'mind' attempts to discern or allocate what is 'real' or 'unreal', and that aspects of one's own psyche, and/or aspects of another 'psyche' affecting one's psyche CAN play into matters, which is conditioning the one beset with mental issues. (hence the possibility of spirit-influence, past-lives, sub-selves, elementals, inherited tendencies, etc.).

So again,...leaving 'witch doctors' asides.....a 'spirit-release' therapist also trained in basic psychological techniques, but having more 'tools' in his medicine kit....can possibly help out in ways that other helpers cannot. Again, the value of researching a case as far as possible along the path of treatment, and using that data to apply various methods to effect a true healing. That's the key ;)

Since we are dealing with the complex nature of the human psyche,...and the realm of consciousness itself (all its inter-plays, possibilities and potential)....we may have more at work here in contributions of insanity, than just a biological imbalance. But,...here things can just get circular,...so will pass the baton :p





pj

fzappa13
July 28th, 2015, 07:21 PM
Hand it over to genuine psychiatric professionals.

... who will promptly prescribe an "anti-depressant" that finds you on the nightly news after having killed someone and then killed yourself.


:nono:

zoo22
July 28th, 2015, 07:47 PM
It's mostly for witches, but I think it ought to work for demons too... A good solution (http://www.history.com/news/history-lists/7-bizarre-witch-trial-tests) to finding out if a person is possessed or if they just have a so-called "psychological" ailment, is to tie them up and throw them into a lake. If they float, they're possessed (water will reject the evil, so they won't sink). If they sink, they're okay and they've probably just got some sort of discipline-related problem that could be fixed up quickly enough if you don't spare the rod. That is, it could be fixed up if they weren't dead, on the bottom of the lake. But that just means they're in Heaven, so all's well that ends well.

fzappa13
July 28th, 2015, 08:03 PM
It's mostly for witches, but I think it ought to work for demons too... A good solution (http://www.history.com/news/history-lists/7-bizarre-witch-trial-tests) to finding out if a person is possessed or if they just have a so-called "psychological" ailment, is to tie them up and throw them into a lake. If they float, they're possessed (water will reject the evil, so they won't sink). If they sink, they're okay and they've probably just got some sort of discipline-related problem that could be fixed up quickly enough if you don't spare the rod. That is, it could be fixed up if they weren't dead, on the bottom of the lake. But that just means they're in Heaven, so all's well that ends well.

Are you volunteering?

George Affleck
July 28th, 2015, 09:05 PM
You plant a garden in your backyard. Do the plants have a judicial right to pass judgement on your decisions of when to weed it, water it, prune it, or how to harvest?

Holy Molly - did you give ANY thought to this when you replied? :) LOL Talk about a serious case of false equivocation!!! (Probably the worst I've ever read!!) So you are comparing the non-thinking simple cell life with the highest evolved being capable of an abstract thought? Seriously dude (or dudette).........

Shalom!

Correct.
Except that the analogy breaks down in that God is far greater than this puny comparison.
BTW - we are not evolved - God made us.

George Affleck
July 28th, 2015, 09:07 PM
P.S. - don't let the beard fool you, I am a man.

fzappa13
July 28th, 2015, 10:42 PM
From my own personal experience I can attest that it seems that when some folks imbibe "whatever" it's like someone else is in attendance. It's like there is some sort of protective shield that is breached at that time.

Tyrathca
July 29th, 2015, 03:08 AM
From my own personal experience I can attest that it seems that when some folks imbibe "whatever" it's like someone else is in attendance. It's like there is some sort of protective shield that is breached at that time.

The problem with that theory is that the way their behaviour changes is somewhat predictable and can often be understood based on neurophysiology and pharmacology. Do the drugs let in different kinds of "someone else" based on the types of cell receptors affected? Can demons be affected by drugs?

fzappa13
July 29th, 2015, 07:41 AM
The problem with that theory is that the way their behaviour changes is somewhat predictable and can often be understood based on neurophysiology and pharmacology. Do the drugs let in different kinds of "someone else" based on the types of cell receptors affected? Can demons be affected by drugs?

As I said, It looks to me like some sort of breach is created in whatever shield there is around the human spirit and the results are seldom pleasant. That is why I quit doing drugs at a fairly young age. Not real sure about the mechanism but I'm pretty familiar with the effect and ... no thanks. Now, as to the source of that unpleasantness ... you tell me ... why is it so uniformly bad?

Ben Masada
July 29th, 2015, 07:49 AM
People can be mentally ill and not possessed of the Devil.

I finally agree with you on something. In fact, if you ask me, no one can be possessed by the Devil as it does not exist. The Devil is only a concept to illustrate the evil inclination in man.

bybee
July 29th, 2015, 08:00 AM
I finally agree with you on something. In fact, if you ask me, no one can be possessed by the Devil as it does not exist. The Devil is only a concept to illustrate the evil inclination in man.

I am curious though, if there are Angels why not Demons?

fzappa13
July 29th, 2015, 08:12 AM
I am curious though, if there are Angels why not Demons?

You know, it's funny to me how you and the sheriff have gotten much more chatty since you tagged out ... not that I'm complaining ... just sayin'

Ben Masada
July 29th, 2015, 10:12 AM
I am curious though, if there are Angels why not Demons?

No need to be as there are no angels either. Angels are simply emanations. An angel means messenger. As long as someone has a message to deliver he or she is an angel. Once delivered, one is no longer to be called an angel. As Biblical literature is concerned, angels appear only in the dreams of a prophet or pious people.

bybee
July 29th, 2015, 10:15 AM
No need to be as there are no angels either. Angels are simply emanations. An angel means messenger. As long as someone has a message to deliver he or she is an angel. Once delivered, one is no longer to be called an angel. As Biblical literature is concerned, angels appear only in the dreams of a prophet or pious people.

I have experienced both in dreams.

PureX
July 29th, 2015, 10:15 AM
How many people have been exorcised, feared, scorned, shunned, or worse for a supposed spiritual ailment when it was an unrecognized, undiagnosed physical ailment?

What if there is no such thing as "demonic possession?"It's basically the difference between "spirit stones" and "magnets". That is, there is no difference in the stones, themselves. Just in the way people perceive them.

Many years ago, in Chicago, I happened upon a tv preacher who's specialty was casting out demons. He had many brochures and pamphlets he pushed on his show explaining to people how to cast out all sorts of demons. I watched out of curiosity.

To my surprise, however, I began to realize that what he was offering were real and practical responses and solutions to very real forms of mental and emotional illnesses. He was just using very archaic and superstition-laden terminology to define the problems and explain the solutions.

At first I assumed he was a con-man, or a hack, but I realized that the people he served could never have afforded to go to a psychologist to be treated for these illnesses, and would never have understood them if help was presented to them in modern scientific terminology. So in reality, this preacher really was helping people who otherwise would never have received any. And he was doing it in the most effective way, given their level and means of understanding.

Turns out he wasn't a con-man at all. He was just a very smart man trying to help "the least among us" deal with some very complicated mental and emotional illnesses and traumas. My hats off to him!

Ben Masada
July 29th, 2015, 10:39 AM
I have experienced both in dreams.

Probably, you must be a pious person.

Angel4Truth
July 29th, 2015, 06:50 PM
No need to be as there are no angels either. Angels are simply emanations. An angel means messenger. As long as someone has a message to deliver he or she is an angel. Once delivered, one is no longer to be called an angel. As Biblical literature is concerned, angels appear only in the dreams of a prophet or pious people.

Who do you believe the men were in Genesis 18 and 19? 19 says they were an angels and they didnt appear in a dream. (one of many examples)

StanJ
July 29th, 2015, 08:03 PM
Who do you believe the men were in Genesis 18 and 19? 19 says they were an angels and they didnt appear in a dream. (one of many examples)

Gen 18:1 is God manifest as 3 men. They are not the same as the 2 angels in Gen 19.

Angel4Truth
July 30th, 2015, 12:26 PM
Gen 18:1 is God manifest as 3 men. They are not the same as the 2 angels in Gen 19.

Since your name isnt ben, ill wait for him to answer, thanks.

Cons&Spires
July 30th, 2015, 02:01 PM
There couldn't NOT be any such thing as demonic possession, because not only is it seen in the New Testament, but it was actually a regular practice to exercise them long before Christ.

*adding to this post :)*

I believe demonic possession has different 'tiers', which can either remain as they or grow worse to a point where they require rebuke from another source other then by one's own will.
Which would be 'full possession', and no longer simply a foothold or pulling of one's body. I think that many people have a demon doing such, but it's in the unfortunate event of a spirit being able to conquer the body from the soul in which an exorcism is needed. One could go to church and edify the soul to keep the body away from the demon in regular circumstances.

It's generally recommended that a person first repent or be baptized before considering that an exorcism is necessary, in other words.

Ben Masada
July 31st, 2015, 08:26 AM
Who do you believe the men were in Genesis 18 and 19? 19 says they were an angels and they didnt appear in a dream. (one of many examples)

A dream or a vision is almost the same thing. The apparition of those three angels to Abraham was a vision as he was slumbering worried about an heir when Sara could have none, and by cycles, he would transfer his mind to Sodom, thinking about his nephew in Sodom and the news of 5 kings in war. Then, the angels appeared to him with news about Sara, and Lot in Sodom. It was then that Abraham had a dialogue with the Lord in the vision about the establishment of the Jewish Minyan. (Gen. 18:32) A vision takes a different turn from a dream when the dreamer from the REM phase of the dream, he gets into the lucid part of the dream which is called a vision. Another difference is that in a vision, the dreamer is in charge of what is happening.

Ben Masada
July 31st, 2015, 08:48 AM
Gen 18:1 is God manifest as 3 men. They are not the same as the 2 angels in Gen 19.

It seems that 3 angels were walking together; final destination, Sodom. Then, on the way they all stopped by and appeared to Abraham. Resuming the trip, what seemed to be the main angel, stayed back with Abraham to share with him what was about to happen in Sodom while the other 2 angels proceeded to the city. With that stay behind, a dialogue took place between Abraham and that angel when a kind of bargain developed which was used later in Judaism for the establishment of the Minyan which is the presence of 10 righteous to prevent a catastrophe. (Gen. 18:32) At this point, the dialogue ended and the presence of the angel was cut off while the presence of the 2 other angels was cut off when Lot and family had left the city.

Angel4Truth
July 31st, 2015, 01:56 PM
A dream or a vision is almost the same thing. The apparition of those three angels to Abraham was a vision as he was slumbering worried about an heir when Sara could have none, and by cycles, he would transfer his mind to Sodom, thinking about his nephew in Sodom and the news of 5 kings in war. Then, the angels appeared to him with news about Sara, and Lot in Sodom. It was then that Abraham had a dialogue with the Lord in the vision about the establishment of the Jewish Minyan. (Gen. 18:32) A vision takes a different turn from a dream when the dreamer from the REM phase of the dream, he gets into the lucid part of the dream which is called a vision. Another difference is that in a vision, the dreamer is in charge of what is happening.


It seems that 3 angels were walking together; final destination, Sodom. Then, on the way they all stopped by and appeared to Abraham. Resuming the trip, what seemed to be the main angel, stayed back with Abraham to share with him what was about to happen in Sodom while the other 2 angels proceeded to the city. With that stay behind, a dialogue took place between Abraham and that angel when a kind of bargain developed which was used later in Judaism for the establishment of the Minyan which is the presence of 10 righteous to prevent a catastrophe. (Gen. 18:32) At this point, the dialogue ended and the presence of the angel was cut off while the presence of the 2 other angels was cut off when Lot and family had left the city.


Where is your evidence they were visions? How is it that Sarah shared in the "vision"

Genesis 18:10 Then one of them said, "I will surely return to you about this time next year, and Sarah your wife will have a son." Now Sarah was listening at the entrance to the tent, which was behind him. 11 Now Abraham and Sarah were old, advanced in age; Sarah was past childbearing. 12 Sarah laughed to herself, saying, "After I have become old, shall I have pleasure, my lord being old also?"…

then in 18:15 Sarah was afraid, so she lied and said, "I did not laugh." But He said, "Yes, you did laugh."

Stuu
August 4th, 2015, 03:34 AM
BTW - we are not evolved - God made us.
Speak for yourself.

Stuart

StanJ
August 4th, 2015, 05:59 PM
It seems that 3 angels were walking together; final destination, Sodom. Then, on the way they all stopped by and appeared to Abraham. Resuming the trip, what seemed to be the main angel, stayed back with Abraham to share with him what was about to happen in Sodom while the other 2 angels proceeded to the city. With that stay behind, a dialogue took place between Abraham and that angel when a kind of bargain developed which was used later in Judaism for the establishment of the Minyan which is the presence of 10 righteous to prevent a catastrophe. (Gen. 18:32) At this point, the dialogue ended and the presence of the angel was cut off while the presence of the 2 other angels was cut off when Lot and family had left the city.

It states;
The Lord appeared to Abraham near the great trees of Mamre while he was sitting at the entrance to his tent in the heat of the day. 2 Abraham looked up and saw three men standing nearby. When he saw them, he hurried from the entrance of his tent to meet them and bowed low to the ground.
3 He said, “If I have found favor in your eyes, my lord, do not pass your servant by. 4 Let a little water be brought, and then you may all wash your feet and rest under this tree. 5 Let me get you something to eat, so you can be refreshed and then go on your way—now that you have come to your servant.”
“Very well,” they answered, “do as you say.”

Not angels, God manifest as men.

George Affleck
August 4th, 2015, 09:41 PM
Speak for yourself.

Stuart


You are quite right Stuart, I should.

God made me.
You came from a monkey.

George Affleck
August 4th, 2015, 09:46 PM
Hey, guess what?!

Stuart and I have just solved the evolution/creation controversy.

All creationists were created by God.
All evolutionists are descended from monkeys.

What an elegant solution!!

freelight
August 4th, 2015, 11:43 PM
Hey, guess what?!

Stuart and I have just solved the evolution/creation controversy.

All creationists were created by God.
All evolutionists are descended from monkeys.

What an elegant solution!!


Whats up with that monkey business? :)

It might be that we are from a more lemur-like mammal, this particular species being the common ancestor of both apes/monkeys and then man springing from this tree, as far as our biological make up is concerned. In this scenario,....within a theist perspective...'God' is still the Creator (Creative Intelligence) who made man, and gave him the potential to become more like Him (god-like/divine/conscious)....as he ever evolves/grows/develops his own human potential and God-consciousness. I take a more theistic evolutional approach, recognizing the evolution of biology and spirit-consciousness.




pj

Stuu
August 5th, 2015, 12:50 AM
You are quite right Stuart, I should.

God made me.
You came from a monkey.
Very happy to be the one that can actually explain where he came from.

Stuart

Ben Masada
August 5th, 2015, 02:37 AM
Where is your evidence they were visions? How is it that Sarah shared in the "vision"

Genesis 18:10 Then one of them said, "I will surely return to you about this time next year, and Sarah your wife will have a son." Now Sarah was listening at the entrance to the tent, which was behind him. 11 Now Abraham and Sarah were old, advanced in age; Sarah was past childbearing. 12 Sarah laughed to herself, saying, "After I have become old, shall I have pleasure, my lord being old also?"…

then in 18:15 Sarah was afraid, so she lied and said, "I did not laugh." But He said, "Yes, you did laugh."

Evidence that the experience of Abraham with those 3 angels is in the fact that the Lord "appeared" to Abraham. (Gen. 18:1) Abraham was a prophet and, if you read Numb. 12:6, to the Prophets, God would appear to them in a dream or vision. Another evidence is in the fact that Abraham prepared a calf with milk, served them with and they ate. That would be against the commandment of Kashrut possible only in a dream.

You don't have to make the part of Sara literal when she laughed because it is all in the dream of Abraham. He was the one dreaming and not Sara.

Ben Masada
August 5th, 2015, 02:49 AM
It states;
The Lord appeared to Abraham near the great trees of Mamre while he was sitting at the entrance to his tent in the heat of the day. 2 Abraham looked up and saw three men standing nearby. When he saw them, he hurried from the entrance of his tent to meet them and bowed low to the ground.
3 He said, “If I have found favor in your eyes, my lord, do not pass your servant by. 4 Let a little water be brought, and then you may all wash your feet and rest under this tree. 5 Let me get you something to eat, so you can be refreshed and then go on your way—now that you have come to your servant.”
“Very well,” they answered, “do as you say.”

Not angels, God manifest as men.

As angels or as men eating like Gentiles is an evidence that it was in a dream/vision of Abraham.

republicanchick
August 5th, 2015, 11:09 AM
I
How many people have been exorcised, feared, scorned, shunned, or worse for a supposed spiritual ailment when it was an unrecognized, undiagnosed physical ailment?

What if there is no such thing as "demonic possession?"

so Jesus cast out... what? What was it that went into the pigs?

it says clearly in the Bible that Jesus cast out DEMONS

thought u were Catholic?

also, the Bible mentions palsy and "out of his mind" , uses the word Lunatic and so we see a separation between the two issues in the Word... btween mental illness/demon possession



+++

Stuu
August 5th, 2015, 11:47 AM
it says clearly in the Bible that Jesus cast out DEMONS
It says clearly in the bible that bats are birds, that at least one donkey and one snake could speak human languages, and that goats have striped offspring if they mate having drunk water while facing peeled tree branches.

So when it says clearly that Jesus cast out DEMONS, you might bear in mind the work of G. and I. Gershwin (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u1eSiso7VZs) on this subject.

Stuart

annabenedetti
August 5th, 2015, 06:44 PM
Hey Anna,

I apologize for jumping in here. Quick question.

Do you think it is possible that the story of Jonah is historical narrative and actually happened, or that it is completely impossible?

No apology necessary. No, I don't think it's historical narrative.

Town Heretic
August 5th, 2015, 07:13 PM
No apology necessary. No, I don't think it's historical narrative.
How do you reconcile that with Matthew 12:41? It seems that Jesus is crediting Jonah with a rather literal existence. Or do you see it as a convention that was known to the audience and the speaker? An implied "we all know the story of" bit?

annabenedetti
August 5th, 2015, 07:34 PM
How do you reconcile that with Matthew 12:41? It seems that Jesus is crediting Jonah with a rather literal existence. Or do you see it as a convention that was known to the audience and the speaker? An implied "we all know the story of" bit?

Yes, that last. I see it as allegory, or as OT parable. I wonder if Jewish scholars see it as literal? It would be interesting to know.

StanJ
August 6th, 2015, 12:04 AM
As angels or as men eating like Gentiles is an evidence that it was in a dream/vision of Abraham.


This makes no sense whatsoever and is NOT supported by the context.

Feel free to elaborate or better, exegete.

Angel4Truth
August 7th, 2015, 08:56 AM
Evidence that the experience of Abraham with those 3 angels is in the fact that the Lord "appeared" to Abraham. (Gen. 18:1) Abraham was a prophet and, if you read Numb. 12:6, to the Prophets, God would appear to them in a dream or vision. Another evidence is in the fact that Abraham prepared a calf with milk, served them with and they ate. That would be against the commandment of Kashrut possible only in a dream.

You don't have to make the part of Sara literal when she laughed because it is all in the dream of Abraham. He was the one dreaming and not Sara.

So tell us how sara actually talked to someone in the dream of abraham.

Angel4Truth
August 9th, 2015, 12:25 PM
Yes, that last. I see it as allegory, or as OT parable. I wonder if Jewish scholars see it as literal? It would be interesting to know.

Do you see the virgin birth as literal?

Ben Masada
August 9th, 2015, 12:50 PM
This makes no sense whatsoever and is NOT supported by the context.

Feel free to elaborate or better, exegete.

Better yet, read Numbers 12:6. The explanation can't be more clear.

Ben Masada
August 9th, 2015, 12:54 PM
So tell us how sara actually talked to someone in the dream of abraham.

Don't tell me you have never had a dream with people actually talking to you in the dream and you talking to them! That's very much common and we all have had this kind of dreams.

Angel4Truth
August 9th, 2015, 12:56 PM
Don't tell me you have never had a dream with people actually talking to you in the dream and you talking to them!

No, i have never had a dream where my husband outside of my dream could respond to the people i was dreaming about as if he is there in the dream with me.

Are you trying to now claim that sarahs laugh didnt actually happen, but that even what she did, was only part of Abrahams dream?

Thats as far fetched an interpretation as it gets as there is no evidence whatever of that being the case.

Ben Masada
August 9th, 2015, 01:59 PM
No, i have never had a dream where my husband outside of my dream could respond to the people i was dreaming about as if he is there in the dream with me.

Are you trying to now claim that sarahs laugh didnt actually happen, but that even what she did, was only part of Abrahams dream?

Thats as far fetched an interpretation as it gets as there is no evidence whatever of that being the case.

That's right! She was only part of Abraham's dream. The same happened when Abraham had a dream that he was about to sacrifice his son Isaac. This was being only part of his father's dream. The same happened to the mother of Samson when she had a dream on about how to raise her child as a Nazarite. Her husband Manoah just happened to be part of her dream. (Judges 13)

And never say that this is far fetched because you have had this kind of dreams too. Every one has. That's the most common thing ever.

Angel4Truth
August 9th, 2015, 02:03 PM
That's right! She was only part of Abraham's dream. The same happened when Abraham had a dream that he was about to sacrifice his son Isaac. This was being only part of his father's dream. The same happened to the mother of Samson when she had a dream on about how to raise her child as a Nazarite. Her husband Manoah just happened to be part of her dream. (Judges 13)

And never say that this is far fetched because you have had this kind of dreams. Every one has. That's the most common thing ever.

Except they are shown separately and there is no evidence whatever to get that from the text and this is merely your invention.

annabenedetti
August 10th, 2015, 07:40 PM
How do you reconcile that with Matthew 12:41? It seems that Jesus is crediting Jonah with a rather literal existence. Or do you see it as a convention that was known to the audience and the speaker? An implied "we all know the story of" bit?

From the Jewish Encyclopedia (http://jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/8751-jonah-book-of):

The book does not bear the least evidence of having been written by the prophet or even during his time; and its age must be gathered from different indications. It has long since been held that it is one of the latest books of the Hebrew canon. This is proved in the first place by the language, as considered lexically, grammatically, and stylistically (comp. on this point the commentaries, and books like S. R. Driver's "Introduction"). Only Esther, Chronicles, and Daniel are of later date. Again, the way in which Nineveh is referred to shows that the city had long since vanished from the face of the earth and had faded into legend (comp. iii. 3). The King of Nineveh, also (iii. 6), could have been referred to only in a late myth; and the legendary atmosphere of the whole story, from beginning to end, is in accord with the length of time that had elapsed since the events recounted took place. This becomes evident both in the episode of the fish which swallows a man and then casts him up alive after three days, and in that of the plant which in one night grows high enough to overshadow Jonah. These things might, it is true, be considered as divine miracles; but such an explanation can not be offered for the three days' time that it takes to pass through Nineveh (iii. 3), nor for the fasting, sackcloth, and penitent cries of the animals (iii. 7 et seq.), much less for the conception that an Israelitish prophet could preach penitence to the city of Nineveh, and that the king and the citizens would listen to him. Everything about the story is, and was intended to be, miraculous and legendary.

. . .

It becomes necessary to inquire into the purpose and teaching of the book, because of the fact that it is not a historical narrative, but a midrash . . .
If the Jewish people don't consider it historical narrative, why do Christians?

The entire entry was interesting to read through the eyes of a different faith perspective, although it only serves to add to my consideration of literal interpretation, including demon possession.

Nazaroo
August 10th, 2015, 08:14 PM
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-GqQPYThm6HA/VclaObnQePI/AAAAAAAABKk/xSrVHVeG460/s640/demons.jpg

Angel4Truth
August 11th, 2015, 02:13 AM
If the Jewish people don't consider it historical narrative, why do Christians?



The jewish people also deny all prophecies of Christ being of Christ and deny Christ Himself, why is that your authority instead of Christ?

Angel4Truth
August 11th, 2015, 02:14 AM
Do you see the virgin birth as literal?

bump for anna

annabenedetti
August 11th, 2015, 03:17 AM
If the Jewish people don't consider it historical narrative, why do Christians?

The entire entry was interesting to read through the eyes of a different faith perspective, although it only serves to add to my consideration of literal interpretation, including demon possession.

Sorry, that was poorly stated. I meant 'reconsideration,' but on a reread it doesn't work well enough. My reevaluation.

annabenedetti
August 11th, 2015, 03:29 AM
The jewish people also deny all prophecies of Christ being of Christ and deny Christ Himself, why is that your authority instead of Christ?

If the story of Jonah and the whale was never meant to be taken literally, why is it taken literally now?

Selaphiel
August 11th, 2015, 03:32 AM
The jewish people also deny all prophecies of Christ being of Christ and deny Christ Himself, why is that your authority instead of Christ?

Which interestingly enough means reading those very prophecies in a non-literal manner.

You are begging the question when you ask her why she adheres to that opinion instead of the "authority of Christ", assuming that Christ necessarily understood the story to be literal, which is the very thing in question. The fact that Christ talks about the story does not mean that he understands it literally anymore than me comparing an event to some event in the Lord of the Rings means that I understand that story to be actual history.

Ben Masada
August 11th, 2015, 03:41 AM
If the story of Jonah and the whale was never meant to be taken literally, why is it taken literally now?

The story of Jonah is taken literally only by those who either have never read the Tanach or do not understand that, to the prophets of Israel, the Lord speaks to them in a dream or vision. (Numb. 12:6)

annabenedetti
August 11th, 2015, 03:42 AM
bump for anna

I'm thinking.

annabenedetti
August 11th, 2015, 03:46 AM
The story of Jonah is taken literally only by those who either have never read the Tanach or do not understand that, to the prophets of Israel, the Lord speaks to them in a dream or vision. (Numb. 12:6)

Thank you, I appreciate your input.

annabenedetti
August 11th, 2015, 03:50 AM
Which interestingly enough means reading those very prophecies in a non-literal manner.

You are begging the question when you ask her why she adheres to that opinion instead of the "authority of Christ", assuming that Christ necessarily understood the story to be literal, which is the very thing in question. The fact that Christ talks about the story does not mean that he understands it literally anymore than me comparing an event to some event in the Lord of the Rings means that I understand that story to be actual history.

Thank you, that's where I was going, but you said it much better than I could have.

Ben Masada
August 11th, 2015, 03:50 AM
Except they are shown separately and there is no evidence whatever to get that from the text and this is merely your invention.

Angel4Truth, I am sorry for I see that you have not understood my explanation and I don't have any how to explain to you any better. Believe me, every one dreams with other people speaking to him or her within a dream.

Nazaroo
August 11th, 2015, 07:55 AM
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-GqQPYThm6HA/VclaObnQePI/AAAAAAAABKk/xSrVHVeG460/s640/demons.jpg

*bumping for some laughs

Angel4Truth
August 11th, 2015, 09:19 AM
If the story of Jonah and the whale was never meant to be taken literally, why is it taken literally now?

"The men of Nineveh shall stand up with this generation at the judgment, and shall condemn it because they repented at the preaching of Jonah; and behold, something greater than Jonah is here. 42 "The Queen of the South shall rise up with this generation at the judgment and shall condemn it, because she came from the ends of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and behold, something greater than Solomon is here. (Matt 12.38)

Jesus seemed to believe it was literal since what He says above isnt figurative clearly and He would know. Thats much more authoritative for me than writings of those who deny Christ, and were written after Christ in order to deny Him and the word of God, since its also prophetic.

PS how do you conclude that "it was never meant to be taken literally" when only some sources make such a claim?

annabenedetti
August 11th, 2015, 11:41 AM
"The men of Nineveh shall stand up with this generation at the judgment, and shall condemn it because they repented at the preaching of Jonah; and behold, something greater than Jonah is here. 42 "The Queen of the South shall rise up with this generation at the judgment and shall condemn it, because she came from the ends of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and behold, something greater than Solomon is here. (Matt 12.38)

Jesus seemed to believe it was literal since what He says above isnt figurative clearly and He would know. Thats much more authoritative for me than writings of those who deny Christ, and were written after Christ in order to deny Him and the word of God, since its also prophetic.

PS how do you conclude that "it was never meant to be taken literally" when only some sources make such a claim?


I'm taking that information from the Jewish encyclopedia, since I figure they know what they're talking about.

Later Uses and Interpretation. In the New Testament Jesus (Luke xi. 29-32) makes use of the book in its original sense, referring to the people of Nineveh as examples of the faith and repentance that he missed among his contemporaries, while refusing them the miracle that they were asking at his hands. The endeavor to find more than this simple reference in the "sign of Jonas," which is akin to the tendency of the artificial inter pretations mentioned above, has led in the parallel passage (Matt. xii. 39-41) to the interpolation (verse 40), according to which Jonah's three days in the belly of the fish are a prophecy of the three days that Jesus would spend in the grave. The early Christian Church more correctly elevates Jonah's rescue from the belly of the fish into the standing type of the resurrection from the grave, a type which is found in all the plastic representations that decorate the early Christian sarcophagi and other monuments.

annabenedetti
August 11th, 2015, 11:54 AM
In doing a little research on various approaches to the story, including Catholic (which leaves it open to either literal or allegorical interpretation) I did come across this interesting statement from a priest at an online Catholic source, who leans to the literal:
A (http://www.ewtn.com/vexperts/showmessage.asp?number=351558) final suggestion to preachers and teachers of the Word. Unless you are firmly convinced about the non-historical character of this work, either by infused knowledge by God Himself or by diligent study of the text and related matters which are compelling, I would hesitate to tell the Faithful that this is myth or fiction. It does nothing to deepen the faith and it only raises issues of credibility and inerrancy, which you should be prepared to answer. The symbolism and central message of Jonah remain and are sufficient subject matter for preaching and teaching for the general public.I find that pretty compelling, because I've sensed echos of that over the years, the idea of not raising unnecessary doubts that might cause problems. It's part of why some Christians segregate themselves, why some of them don't tolerate well a challenge to their beliefs because their entire lives are wrapped around those beliefs. It's their entire reason for being. To question or to doubt is to risk a shattering of the gestalt, so they don't want to go there.

As an additional, more Catholic-themed observation: I hear clericalism in those words.

chrysostom
August 11th, 2015, 12:02 PM
If the story of Jonah and the whale was never meant to be taken literally, why is it taken literally now?

why is it important?

Angel4Truth
August 11th, 2015, 03:01 PM
I'm taking that information from the Jewish encyclopedia, since I figure they know what they're talking about.

Later Uses and Interpretation. In the New Testament Jesus (Luke xi. 29-32) makes use of the book in its original sense, referring to the people of Nineveh as examples of the faith and repentance that he missed among his contemporaries, while refusing them the miracle that they were asking at his hands. The endeavor to find more than this simple reference in the "sign of Jonas," which is akin to the tendency of the artificial inter pretations mentioned above, has led in the parallel passage (Matt. xii. 39-41) to the interpolation (verse 40), according to which Jonah's three days in the belly of the fish are a prophecy of the three days that Jesus would spend in the grave. The early Christian Church more correctly elevates Jonah's rescue from the belly of the fish into the standing type of the resurrection from the grave, a type which is found in all the plastic representations that decorate the early Christian sarcophagi and other monuments.


Do you figure they know what they are talking about when they claim that Jesus was merely a magician? You also didnt respond to what Jesus said, showing literal rendering, and you didnt respond to the objection to your claim that it was "never" to be taken literally.

annabenedetti
August 11th, 2015, 04:05 PM
Do you figure they know what they are talking about when they claim that Jesus was merely a magician? You also didnt respond to what Jesus said, showing literal rendering, and you didnt respond to the objection to your claim that it was "never" to be taken literally.

I'll answer as I think best. The excerpts I posted give a good explanation of Jewish interpretation. If you'd like to offer an example of literal Jewish interpretation I'd be interested in seeing it.

Did you by any chance read the entire encyclopedia entry at the link?

Totton Linnet
August 11th, 2015, 04:25 PM
The reason orthodox theologians believe the Jonah story to be true is because Jesus refers to it.

"as Jonah was in the belly of the whale...etc"

I cannot accept the proposition that the Master was speaking to a popular understanding of His day.

Totton Linnet
August 11th, 2015, 04:33 PM
I have to admit to something that grieves me above measure....it is one of those things I dare not think about.

When I read of folks being held under restraint in padded cells, who if they were not so would be running nude in the cemetaries cutting themselves I think they are demon possessed, they are described as such in the gospels....I have seen them manifest their presence, I have seen them cast out and the people set free...wonderfully set free.

annabenedetti
August 11th, 2015, 06:35 PM
I have to admit to something that grieves me above measure....it is one of those things I dare not think about.

When I read of folks being held under restraint in padded cells, who if they were not so would be running nude in the cemetaries cutting themselves I think they are demon possessed, they are described as such in the gospels....I have seen them manifest their presence, I have seen them cast out and the people set free...wonderfully set free.


Cutting themselves, as in self-harm? There are a number of reasons why people self-harm, Tots, and the cause is psychological, not demonic. People experiencing psychosis could very well have been considered possessed in the past, when there was no scientific biological explanation for their behavior.

Angel4Truth
August 11th, 2015, 06:54 PM
I'll answer as I think best. The excerpts I posted give a good explanation of Jewish interpretation. If you'd like to offer an example of literal Jewish interpretation I'd be interested in seeing it.

Did you by any chance read the entire encyclopedia entry at the link?

Yes, i read it. Im sorry the words of Christ are not good enough and you would rather take the word of those who deny Him, what He said was clearly literal and you havent adressed that. Ill take His word, over the word of those who deny Him.

Jesus was jewish, and He said: "Jonah became a sign to the men of Nineveh". Luke 11.30 The men repented because they believed and saw that Jonah was literally saved by the hand of God, and they believed Jonah when he told them that God would destroy them for their wrongs.


From the throne of the king down to the least of the common folk the hundreds of thousands of Ninevites took Jonah in all seriousness, repented in great earnest, and desperately sought to remove the imminent judgment from their city. Jonah in no way endeavoured to persuade them of the truth of his short, simple warning - he just proclaimed it as a matter of fact. He also gave them no assurance that God would spare the city if they repented. It was, on the contrary, his wish and expectation that the city would be destroyed in terms of God's warning whether the Ninevites took him seriously or not.

Why then did the whole city repent and do so in the hope that God would not cause them to perish? (Jonah 3.9). Jewish historians were fascinated by this story and concluded that the only possible explanation was that the Ninevites knew that Jonah had been swallowed up by a fish as God's judgment on his disobedience, and also knew that while he would normally die in such circumstances, God in mercy kept him alive and delivered him from the stomach of the fish on the third day. This alone could explain the seriousness with which they listened to Jonah and their hope of mercy if they repented. http://www.answering-islam.org/Shamoun/jonah_historicity.htm

Totton Linnet
August 11th, 2015, 08:52 PM
Cutting themselves, as in self-harm? There are a number of reasons why people self-harm, Tots, and the cause is psychological, not demonic. People experiencing psychosis could very well have been considered possessed in the past, when there was no scientific biological explanation for their behavior.

When it's demon you know it's demon.

There is indirect demon activity, what you call psychosis, and there is demon possession. If you ever become involved in missionary work in Africa you'll soon learn about demons.

But I say in the west whether demon possessed or just mentally ill, we lock them away.

Of COURSE I would not spect a doctor to call it demon, any more than they would call cancer a spirit of infirmity.

There were physicians in Jesu's day, the woman with the issue of blood spent all her money for years on many of them but got no better but rather grew worse.

What a happy day when she got in contact with Jesus.

patrick jane
August 11th, 2015, 09:00 PM
i may suffer from mental possession and demonic illness -

Totton Linnet
August 11th, 2015, 09:08 PM
i may suffer from mental possession and demonic illness -

You're just daft....in a nice way :)

annabenedetti
August 11th, 2015, 09:37 PM
Yes, i read it. Im sorry the words of Christ are not good enough and you would rather take the word of those who deny Him, what He said was clearly literal and you havent adressed that. Ill take His word, over the word of those who deny Him.

Jesus was jewish, and He said: "Jonah became a sign to the men of Nineveh". Luke 11.30 The men repented because they believed and saw that Jonah was literally saved by the hand of God, and they believed Jonah when he told them that God would destroy them for their wrongs.

http://www.answering-islam.org/Shamoun/jonah_historicity.htm


You're discounting the very people whose ancient text Christianity has adopted.

From my link, again:


The book does not bear the least evidence of having been written by the prophet or even during his time; and its age must be gathered from different indications. It has long since been held that it is one of the latest books of the Hebrew canon. This is proved in the first place by the language, as considered lexically, grammatically, and stylistically (comp. on this point the commentaries, and books like S. R. Driver's "Introduction"). Only Esther, Chronicles, and Daniel are of later date. Again, the way in which Nineveh is referred to shows that the city had long since vanished from the face of the earth and had faded into legend (comp. iii. 3). The King of Nineveh, also (iii. 6), could have been referred to only in a late myth; and the legendary atmosphere of the whole story, from beginning to end, is in accord with the length of time that had elapsed since the events recounted took place. This becomes evident both in the episode of the fish which swallows a man and then casts him up alive after three days, and in that of the plant which in one night grows high enough to overshadow Jonah. These things might, it is true, be considered as divine miracles; but such an explanation can not be offered for the three days' time that it takes to pass through Nineveh (iii. 3), nor for the fasting, sackcloth, and penitent cries of the animals (iii. 7 et seq.), much less for the conception that an Israelitish prophet could preach penitence to the city of Nineveh, and that the king and the citizens would listen to him. Everything about the story is, and was intended to be, miraculous and legendary.

Your link isn't from a Jewish source, from what I can tell. That's what I was asking for.

aikido7
August 11th, 2015, 10:42 PM
Anyone remember the poor evangelical lady who drowned her three children in the bathtub because God spoke to her and convinced her that her kids were demons?

What would you do if you were convinced the Lord was speaking to you and asked you to carry out a [strange] task for Him?

Makes me think of the story of Isaac being tied up and coming mighty close to being set on fire and sacrificed. Of course in that case, God was playing a sort of cosmic game and revealed the "joke" at the last minute.

Nazaroo
August 11th, 2015, 10:46 PM
You're discounting the very people whose ancient text Christianity has adopted.

From my link, again:
The book does not bear the least evidence of having been written by the prophet or even during his time; and its age must be gathered from different indications. It has long since been held that it is one of the latest books of the Hebrew canon. This is proved in the first place by the language, as considered lexically, grammatically, and stylistically (comp. on this point the commentaries, and books like S. R. Driver's "Introduction"). Only Esther, Chronicles, and Daniel are of later date. Again, the way in which Nineveh is referred to shows that the city had long since vanished from the face of the earth and had faded into legend (comp. iii. 3). The King of Nineveh, also (iii. 6), could have been referred to only in a late myth; and the legendary atmosphere of the whole story, from beginning to end, is in accord with the length of time that had elapsed since the events recounted took place. This becomes evident both in the episode of the fish which swallows a man and then casts him up alive after three days, and in that of the plant which in one night grows high enough to overshadow Jonah. These things might, it is true, be considered as divine miracles; but such an explanation can not be offered for the three days' time that it takes to pass through Nineveh (iii. 3), nor for the fasting, sackcloth, and penitent cries of the animals (iii. 7 et seq.), much less for the conception that an Israelitish prophet could preach penitence to the city of Nineveh, and that the king and the citizens would listen to him. Everything about the story is, and was intended to be, miraculous and legendary.

Your link isn't from a Jewish source, from what I can tell. That's what I was asking for.


Sadly out of date.

S.R. Driver (circa 1900) was discredited a long time ago. His knowledge of the
alleged development and evolution of Hebrew and Aramaic has been shown
to be a joke, and a typical 19th century cloistered German fantasy.

Driver dated Daniel for instance at 167 BCE +- 4 years.
This was merely interpreting the 'evidence' according to the ancient theory
of Porphyry of Tyre (c. 300 AD) a skeptic who claimed that Daniel was
a pious forgery from the time of the Maccabees. The Dead Sea Scrolls
discoveries at Qumran have since proved that Daniel was accepted
as a famous prophet in the 2nd century BCE and the book already had a
long textual history, suggesting a date at least a century earlier on the
textual evidence alone.
All of Driver's 'careful scholarship' could not overcome the actual technical
ignorance of language usage and socioeconomic history of the region
for the critical Babylonian and Persian periods in the 19th century.

Current linguistic assessments place the Hebrew of Esther, Chronicles
and Daniel as roughly contemporary, and circa 500 BCE, which is
precisely what should be expected of documents from the period claimed.

The almost hysterical anti-Semitism of 19th century German scholarship
and the 'higher critical schools' has all but died in the flurry of archaeological
and manuscript discoveries between the 1880s and the 1960s.

For the same reasons, S.R. Driver's analysis of Jonah is worthless.

The introduction of "penitence" into the discussion is typical Roman Catholic Newspeak.
Its an exclusively Roman Catholic theological fiction.
You are absolutely right that no Israelite prophet, real or fictional, would ever
'preach penitence' to anyone.

Nazaroo
August 11th, 2015, 10:56 PM
Makes me think of the story of Isaac being tied up and coming mighty close to being set on fire and sacrificed. Of course in that case, God was playing a sort of cosmic game and revealed the "joke" at the last minute.

Assuming Abraham was indeed a desert bedouin of limited education and
limited intelligence, its equally possible that he suffered sun-stroke or
dietary sub-standard mental capacity. Thus he could have had marginal
epileptic or schizophrenic symptoms like hearing voices.

Perhaps equally likely, local 'priests' (e.g. Balaam or Magi) instructed him
to kill his son, and he ignorantly carried out the orders,
but was saved from their evil and his own stupidity by a miraculous intervention,
either of an 'angel' or perhaps even more simply another priest with
actual scruples and a moral compass. This being (human or divine)
talked Abraham out of killing his son, which by any reasonable standard
would be a lot more serious than a mere 'prank'.

There is no need to ascribe to God the start of the story,
except in the sense that God allowed the 'prank' to continue so far,
not to test Abraham, but to test the evil intent of the pranksters.

God gets the glory for how the story turned out, which is reasonable,
since God and His angel act as rescuers and obstructers of evil.

A good comprehension of the story does require one to read between the lines
just a little deeper than your first pass.

Totton Linnet
August 12th, 2015, 02:50 AM
Abraham had the promise that through Isaac his descendants would be as the stars of heaven....that's why he trusted God.

Tyrathca
August 12th, 2015, 04:11 AM
When it's demon you know it's demon. Who knows and how? You? Does the person know by psychic 6th sense? How is disagreement on demon possession sorted out?

There is indirect demon activity, what you call psychosis, and there is demon possession. If you ever become involved in missionary work in Africa you'll soon learn about demons. So psychosis is demon possession and the devil hates/loves Africans?.... Is it just psychosis which is demon possession or are other types demon possession too?

But I say in the west whether demon possessed or just mentally ill, we lock them away. Are you advocating for us NOT to treat people with manageable psychiatric conditions?

Of COURSE I would not spect a doctor to call it demon, any more than they would call cancer a spirit of infirmity. Hang on now you're also saying cancer is actually a "spiritual" condition and not related to genetic mutations?

Are you sure YOU'RE not the one with psychosis?

Ben Masada
August 12th, 2015, 04:24 AM
Assuming Abraham was indeed a desert bedouin of limited education and limited intelligence, its equally possible that he suffered sun-stroke or dietary sub-standard mental capacity. Thus he could have had marginal epileptic or schizophrenic symptoms like hearing voices.

Perhaps equally likely, local 'priests' (e.g. Balaam or Magi) instructed him to kill his son, and he ignorantly carried out the orders, but was saved from their evil and his own stupidity by a miraculous intervention, either of an 'angel' or perhaps even more simply another priest with actual scruples and a moral compass. This being (human or divine) talked Abraham out of killing his son, which by any reasonable standard would be a lot more serious than a mere 'prank'.

There is no need to ascribe to God the start of the story, except in the sense that God allowed the 'prank' to continue so far,
not to test Abraham, but to test the evil intent of the pranksters.

God gets the glory for how the story turned out, which is reasonable, since God and His angel act as rescuers and obstructers of evil.

A good comprehension of the story does require one to read between the lines just a little deeper than your first pass.

The Lord's Catch-22

According to a certain midrash reported by Thomas Mann in his book "Joseph and his Brothers," after a while that Abraham had arrived in Canaan, from his country and folks in Ur of the Chaldeans, he was deeply impressed about the deep love with which the Canaanites would love their gods as to offer their firstborn son in a burn sacrifice. Abraham would go frustrate to think that he could not express his love for Elohim in such a dramatic way.

As Abraham would try to chew that paradox in his mind, he fell asleep and had a dream. Elohim would identify Himself thus: I am Molech, bull-king of the baalites and command you to bring your firstborn son Isaac and offer him in a burn sacrifice to Me. As Abraham set about to do so, the Lord said, "How dare you! Am I Molech bull-king of the baalites? I expected you to know much better. What I have commanded, I did not command so that you would do it, but that you might learn that you should not do it; because it is nothing but an abomination in My sight, instead; and don't confuse the practices of the Gentiles with the People you are to sire. Behold a ram; offer it instead.

Ben Masada
August 12th, 2015, 04:32 AM
Anyone remember the poor evangelical lady who drowned her three children in the bathtub because God spoke to her and convinced her that her kids were demons?

What would you do if you were convinced the Lord was speaking to you and asked you to carry out a [strange] task for Him?

Makes me think of the story of Isaac being tied up and coming mighty close to being set on fire and sacrificed. Of course in that case, God was playing a sort of cosmic game and revealed the "joke" at the last minute.

I would first check it up thoroughly if it was a Catch-22. You know, a command supposed to be obeyed by doing exactly the opposite. And then, I would make sure I was not having a dream.

Nazaroo
August 12th, 2015, 05:10 AM
The Lord's Catch-22

According to a certain midrash reported by Thomas Mann in his book "Joseph and his Brothers," after a while that Abraham had arrived in Canaan, from his country and folks in Ur of the Chaldeans, he was deeply impressed about the deep love with which the Canaanites would love their gods as to offer their firstborn son in a burn sacrifice. Abraham would go frustrate to think that he could not express his love for Elohim in such a dramatic way.

As Abraham would try to chew that paradox in his mind, he fell asleep and had a dream. Elohim would identify Himself thus: I am Molech, bull-king of the baalites and command you to bring your firstborn son Isaac and offer him in a burn sacrifice to Me. As Abraham set about to do so, the Lord said, "How dare you! Am I Molech bull-king of the baalites? I expected you to know much better. What I have commanded, I did not command so that you would do it, but that you might learn that you should not do it; because it is nothing but an abomination in My sight, instead; and don't confuse the practices of the Gentiles with the People you are to sire. Behold a ram; offer it instead.

This seems of course like an attempt to reconcile what we know about G-d
with a difficult historical text.

But somehow, that seems like just what we ought to do,
as part of Torah study.

Not a catch-22, but rich in irony

Ben Masada
August 12th, 2015, 07:29 AM
The reason orthodox theologians believe the Jonah story to be true is because Jesus refers to it.

"as Jonah was in the belly of the whale...etc"

I cannot accept the proposition that the Master was speaking to a popular understanding of His day.

Jesus was much more intelligent than to be the author of that so-called prophecy of Mat. 12:40. The truth is that the Hellenist who wrote that gospel never even saw Jesus and much less that Jesus would spend 3 days and 3 nights in the belly of the fish. The point was that the time was for Christianity and, every pious forgery was an order.

Totton Linnet
August 12th, 2015, 11:14 AM
Who knows and how? You? Does the person know by psychic 6th sense? How is disagreement on demon possession sorted out?
So psychosis is demon possession and the devil hates/loves Africans?.... Is it just psychosis which is demon possession or are other types demon possession too?
Are you advocating for us NOT to treat people with manageable psychiatric conditions?
Hang on now you're also saying cancer is actually a "spiritual" condition and not related to genetic mutations?

Are you sure YOU'RE not the one with psychosis?

Yes ME...

All physical conditions of any sort whatsoever have a spiritual cause

...got it now?

Tyrathca
August 12th, 2015, 03:06 PM
Yes ME...

All physical conditions of any sort whatsoever have a spiritual cause

...got it now?

So spiritual matters can be influenced by genetics, exposures, medication and surgeries?

patrick jane
August 12th, 2015, 11:14 PM
So spiritual matters can be influenced by genetics, exposures, medication and surgeries?

and many many many many years . . of therapy -

many other things, including even just only even spiritual matters even -

Ben Masada
August 13th, 2015, 12:31 AM
This seems of course like an attempt to reconcile what we know about G-d
with a difficult historical text.

But somehow, that seems like just what we ought to do,
as part of Torah study.

Not a catch-22, but rich in irony

Well my friend, that's what a midrash is.

aikido7
August 13th, 2015, 12:34 AM
Assuming Abraham was indeed a desert bedouin of limited education and
limited intelligence, its equally possible that he suffered sun-stroke or
dietary sub-standard mental capacity. Thus he could have had marginal
epileptic or schizophrenic symptoms like hearing voices.

Perhaps equally likely, local 'priests' (e.g. Balaam or Magi) instructed him
to kill his son, and he ignorantly carried out the orders,
but was saved from their evil and his own stupidity by a miraculous intervention,
either of an 'angel' or perhaps even more simply another priest with
actual scruples and a moral compass. This being (human or divine)
talked Abraham out of killing his son, which by any reasonable standard
would be a lot more serious than a mere 'prank'.

There is no need to ascribe to God the start of the story,
except in the sense that God allowed the 'prank' to continue so far,
not to test Abraham, but to test the evil intent of the pranksters.

God gets the glory for how the story turned out, which is reasonable,
since God and His angel act as rescuers and obstructers of evil.

A good comprehension of the story does require one to read between the lines
just a little deeper than your first pass.Interesting stuff. You have acquainted me with some new information to ponder.

aikido7
August 13th, 2015, 12:36 AM
I would first check it up thoroughly if it was a Catch-22. You know, a command supposed to be obeyed by doing exactly the opposite. And then, I would make sure I was not having a dream.But the historical record shows that God comes to us in dreams as well.

Totton Linnet
August 13th, 2015, 03:36 AM
So spiritual matters can be influenced by genetics, exposures, medication and surgeries?

Did you ever hear the Lord say "sin no more now lest a worse thing come upon you"

Now I'm not one to say if someone is sick it is because they have sinned...far, far be it from me to think such a thing. And yet sickness has come upon mankind because he has wandered far from His maker...this is the true meaning of Adam and Eves nakedness, suddenly they were vulnerable to the elements.

God still cares for sinners....oh yes, God slew an ox and clothed them.

The craft of slaying an ox to make clothes is science my friend.

I believe medical science is from God.

Ben Masada
August 13th, 2015, 03:41 AM
But the historical record shows that God comes to us in dreams as well.

Yes, but the difference between us and the prophets of HaShem is that today, after the Jewish prophetic system has ceased to exist since the return of the Jews from exile in Babylon according to Dan. 9:24 and the availability of God's Word through the Scriptures, only very seldom the Lord would visit one through his dreams or visions. (Deut. 30:11-14)

Although one needed to be a prophet for the Lord to visit him or her during a dream or vision, there was an occasion when He appeared to a lady, not a prophetess, with instructions on how to raise her son to be a Judge in Israel. (Judge 13) It was the wife of Manoah the father of Samson. But most the time, the host had to be a trained prophet. (Numb. 12:6)

Tyrathca
August 13th, 2015, 06:16 AM
I believe medical science is from God. And yet you reject what medical science has shown us.

Aimiel
August 13th, 2015, 06:40 AM
What if there is no such thing as "demonic possession?"Then Jesus is a fool.

And cried with a loud voice, and said, What have I to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of the most high God? I adjure thee by God, that thou torment me not. For he said unto him, Come out of the man, thou unclean spirit. And he asked him, What is thy name? And he answered, saying, My name is Legion: for we are many. And he besought him much that he would not send them away out of the country. Now there was there nigh unto the mountains a great herd of swine feeding. And all the devils besought him, saying, Send us into the swine, that we may enter into them. And forthwith Jesus gave them leave. And the unclean spirits went out, and entered into the swine: and the herd ran violently down a steep place into the sea, (they were about two thousand;) and were choked in the sea.

He spoke to demon spirits, cast them out and told us to do the same.

Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give.

Just because science gives names to spiritual ailments doesn't mean that demons are not at work behind-the-scenes, as they always have been.

Totton Linnet
August 15th, 2015, 06:05 AM
And yet you reject what medical science has shown us.

I do no such thing, medical science cannot see a spirit of infirmity, not even in an X ray it can see the effect the spirit of infirmity is having on the body....they may call this effect cancer....

Tyrathca
August 15th, 2015, 06:29 PM
I do no such thing, medical science cannot see a spirit of infirmity, not even in an X ray it can see the effect the spirit of infirmity is having on the body....they may call this effect cancer....

Medical science knows what cancer is and why it occurs in great detail. You are again here denying what medical science tells you by claiming things like cancer are somehow caused by spirits rather what science says it is caused by. You're trying to have your cake and eat it too. Are spirits genetically inheritable? Are they given to people by exposure to certain environmental affects our compounds? Do they cause the same specific genetic changes to cells in multiple people? Can spirits be exorcised by removing a funny looking mole? If your answer is no to these then you are rejecting medical science regarding illnesses like cancer. If your answers are yes then that is one weird sounding spirit and you should explain what you mean.

aikido7
August 15th, 2015, 10:45 PM
Yes, but the difference between us and the prophets of HaShem is that today, after the Jewish prophetic system has ceased to exist since the return of the Jews from exile in Babylon according to Dan. 9:24 and the availability of God's Word through the Scriptures, only very seldom the Lord would visit one through his dreams or visions. (Deut. 30:11-14)

Although one needed to be a prophet for the Lord to visit him or her during a dream or vision, there was an occasion when He appeared to a lady, not a prophetess, with instructions on how to raise her son to be a Judge in Israel. (Judge 13) It was the wife of Manoah the father of Samson. But most the time, the host had to be a trained prophet. (Numb. 12:6)The main difference between then and now was that the ancient world believed in a "three-tiered universe." The earth below, then the firmament and on top of it all--Heaven. They also believed in weather and other natural events and disasters as coming from God.

And they also believed in evil spirits and demons.

Totton Linnet
August 16th, 2015, 03:24 AM
Medical science knows what cancer is and why it occurs in great detail. You are again here denying what medical science tells you by claiming things like cancer are somehow caused by spirits rather what science says it is caused by. You're trying to have your cake and eat it too. Are spirits genetically inheritable? Are they given to people by exposure to certain environmental affects our compounds? Do they cause the same specific genetic changes to cells in multiple people? Can spirits be exorcised by removing a funny looking mole? If your answer is no to these then you are rejecting medical science regarding illnesses like cancer. If your answers are yes then that is one weird sounding spirit and you should explain what you mean.

If medical science knew what cancer was and why it occurs it would be cured, and the same is true of arthritis.

You are pushing me into a more extreme position than I actually hold.

We know very well how environment affects the body.

Beside the ability to cast out spirits of infirmity we also see that the ministry of Christ is to do creative miracles.

There is nothing impossible with God, and God is not in opposition to science, Science means knowledge and God created this world by knowledge. All scientists do is discover the particular knowledge concerning aspects of God's creation.

And when the scientist fails, when the doctor shakes his head and says there is no hope, then it is time to turn to God...some of us have learned to make God our FIRST port of call.

Totton Linnet
August 16th, 2015, 03:26 AM
...when philosophies fail and political theory

Tyrathca
August 16th, 2015, 08:06 AM
If medical science knew what cancer was and why it occurs it would be cured, and the same is true of arthritis. False. We know a great deal about cancers and what they are about down to many of the genetic changes associated with their formation, many of the genes which are prone to let them form and the exposures likely to cause the mutation which allows for growth. The reason why we haven't cured it is because there are lots of different types of cancer and the difficulty is finding drugs that target the cancer but not the host too much (which is hard). That said many cancers have a very high cure rate provided they are detected early.

You could have said the same for bacterial infections, given we haven't "cured" it. Are bacteria spirits too? Oh and fyi arthritis is a symptom caused by many very different conditions many of which we know a lot about.


You are pushing me into a more extreme position than I actually hold. I'm not forcing you into anything, you keep denying that it is your position but in the next breath keep affirming it. You do so again in this post too, you deny it's your position then go on to say that medical science doesn't know things it says it knows. The problem I suspect it's that you are so breathtakingly ignorant about any medical science that you can't comprehend how ignorant you are, you then fall into the Dunning-Kruger affect and think you can speak authoritatively on the matter.


Beside the ability to cast out spirits of infirmity we also see that the ministry of Christ is to do creative miracles. You haven't answered whether surgery can cat out spirits too or whether spirits are passed down through genes. Also do you have any double blind randomised control trials of the effectiveness of christian ministry in casting out cancer spirits? I presume not which begs the question why no one has done it as it should be easy to show an affect if you are right.


And when the scientist fails, when the doctor shakes his head and says there is no hope, then it is time to turn to God...some of us have learned to make God our FIRST port of call. God isn't going to save you from a ruptured aortic aneurysm or ischaemic gut. Prove me wrong

Totton Linnet
August 16th, 2015, 12:21 PM
False. We know a great deal about cancers and what they are about down to many of the genetic changes associated with their formation, many of the genes which are prone to let them form and the exposures likely to cause the mutation which allows for growth. The reason why we haven't cured it is because there are lots of different types of cancer and the difficulty is finding drugs that target the cancer but not the host too much (which is hard). That said many cancers have a very high cure rate provided they are detected early.

You could have said the same for bacterial infections, given we haven't "cured" it. Are bacteria spirits too? Oh and fyi arthritis is a symptom caused by many very different conditions many of which we know a lot about.

I'm not forcing you into anything, you keep denying that it is your position but in the next breath keep affirming it. You do so again in this post too, you deny it's your position then go on to say that medical science doesn't know things it says it knows. The problem I suspect it's that you are so breathtakingly ignorant about any medical science that you can't comprehend how ignorant you are, you then fall into the Dunning-Kruger affect and think you can speak authoritatively on the matter.

You haven't answered whether surgery can cat out spirits too or whether spirits are passed down through genes. Also do you have any double blind randomised control trials of the effectiveness of christian ministry in casting out cancer spirits? I presume not which begs the question why no one has done it as it should be easy to show an affect if you are right.

God isn't going to save you from a ruptured aortic aneurysm or ischaemic gut. Prove me wrong

Yes you would have it that I said all sickness was a spirit of infirmity, I did not.
I did say that everything that appears in the natural has a spiritual cause....

Yes they know what cancer does, they know that one cell becomes aggressive and starts to attack other nearby cells

They do not know what causes this.

They know in arthritis the immune system is activated but for some unknown reason begins to destroy healthy joints and ligaments...if they knew why these things happened they would be close to finding a cure....what they do is treat the symptoms with greater or lesser success.

I did not say all sickness and disease are spirits of infirmity.

But Adam and Eve were neither created sick nor were they prone to sickness, sickness came upon mankind because of his fall from grace, that is the root cause of ALL human woe....so his first problem is spiritual.

Christ is God's anointed Healer as well as Saviour.

Tyrathca
August 16th, 2015, 03:07 PM
Yes they know what cancer does, they know that one cell becomes aggressive and starts to attack other nearby cells

They do not know what causes this. *sigh* Yes they do know!

How many times are you going to double down and say that medical science doesn't know something (so you can insert you spirit of infirmity as the cause) when clearly you know nothing on the subject.

They know in arthritis the immune system is activated but for some unknown reason begins to destroy healthy joints and ligaments...if they knew why these things happened they would be close to finding a cure....what they do is treat the symptoms with greater or lesser success. *sigh* not all arthritis is autoimmune

I did not say all sickness and disease are spirits of infirmity. Not but you did say cancer is and implied that "arthritis" is.

Totton Linnet
August 16th, 2015, 03:38 PM
I say the root cause of cancer or any other sickness whatsoever is spiritual before it becomes physical so that supersedes any statement I have made concerning "spirits of infirmity" The root cause of ALL the woe that ever fell upon mankind is spiritual before it ever appeared on the natural.

Do you agree with that statement?

I don't care if you do or if you don't, God created man and He placed him in a garden of great beauty and abundance...that is God's will for mankind, that has ALWAYS been God's will for mankind...God wills only good for man.

Man is not created to know evil, God told him to leave that alone. As long as mankind left evil and the knowledge of evil alone he well, in his spirit, in his mind and in his body.

But man did not obey God, he rebelled against this simple command...leave evil alone. When he disobeyed he forfeited all the goodness afforded by the perfect environment that God had placed him...God will not have truc with sin...man was cast out...that is where sickness, disease, poverty, sorrow began.

But God did not leave man in that condition, God sent a Saviour, a Healer, a Deliverer....have you discovered Him yet?

RBBI
September 3rd, 2015, 06:51 AM
People that argue against demonic possession being real, and it only being a medical condition of some sort, have never dealt with real demonic possession. Any medical condition is the FRUIT, not the ROOT of the problem, the root is spiritual.

And I am qualified to speak of this because I had terminal cancer which the Lord healed. I had no meds, nor treatment of any kind. And again, the root was spiritual, not physical. Deal with the root, and the fruit has to go.

Same principle shown when the Lord had them build the temple, and send for Egyptians and Chaldeans, who were previously banned from close association because of their pagan religions. But they were specialists at their part in the temple building and when it was done, they left and the priests cleansed the temple. The spiritual problem is there to do a job, and when it's job is done, it has to leave. ALL things work together for good to those that love the Lord, even if it appears to be a bad thing at the time.

annabenedetti
September 17th, 2017, 10:04 PM
Bumping for old times, new ideas, and good memories.

intojoy
September 17th, 2017, 11:07 PM
Bumping for old times, new ideas, and good memories.

Look in a mirror.


Sent from my iPhone using TOL (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=78367)

Truster
September 18th, 2017, 01:52 AM
Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

According to scripture all of humanity is demonically possessed. Only those that are regenerate are set free from the captivity of sin and Satan.

The Barbarian
September 18th, 2017, 07:07 AM
I'd always accepted without question the idea of demonic possession. It was a part of my religious upbringing, it was what I was taught, it was both scriptural and doctrinal, the Church had exorcists to deal with the problem. It's the explanation for the unexplainable. If someone heard voices, it must have been the devil, it couldn't have been hypnagogia or schizophrenia, for example.

There is demonic possession. But notice that the Church is very careful to first have the person examined for physical and mental illness before even considering an exorcism. There are far more cases of mental illness or brain disorder than there are cases of possession.

patrick jane
September 18th, 2017, 08:01 AM
Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

According to scripture all of humanity is demonically possessed. Only those that are regenerate are set free from the captivity of sin and Satan.So, you're free from sin and satan? No more temptation for you and you can't sin anymore?

Truster
September 18th, 2017, 08:49 AM
So, you're free from sin and satan? No more temptation for you and you can't sin anymore?

You are such a spiritually ignorant fellow and such a cry baby I'm not going to waste my time answering.

patrick jane
September 18th, 2017, 09:07 AM
You are such a spiritually ignorant fellow and such a cry baby I'm not going to waste my time answering.That's what I expected from a pompous, pride filled child of the devil. Please put me on ignore, because you can't answer questions that show your errors.

Robert Pate
September 18th, 2017, 09:37 AM
That's what I expected from a pompous, pride filled child of the devil. Please put me on ignore, because you can't answer questions that show your errors.


I have always believed that religion will drive one nuts. This Forum is full of religious fruit cakes.

annabenedetti
September 18th, 2017, 10:06 AM
:Plain:

User Name
September 18th, 2017, 12:01 PM
On the other hand a bunch of posters on TOL seem to have mental illness. Which just might be the marijuana talking.

Or the alcohol, most likely.

Angel4Truth
September 18th, 2017, 02:50 PM
...when philosophies fail and political theory

You are missed, I hope all is well with you.

Angel4Truth
September 18th, 2017, 03:11 PM
Take a trip to haiti or africa anna where they practice voodoo, then come back and ask about demon possession.

intojoy
September 18th, 2017, 05:47 PM
Not much demonic controlled people today. But there are some. And there will be much more once the Tribulation begins.


Sent from my iPhone using TOL

Angel4Truth
September 18th, 2017, 05:53 PM
Not much demonic controlled people today. But there are some. And there will be much more once the Tribulation begins.


Sent from my iPhone using TOL

There are tons, they just blame it on their drugs instead of the source.

User Name
September 18th, 2017, 05:58 PM
There are tons, they just blame it on their drugs instead of the source.

So you mean that whenever someone gets drunk, they are really demon possessed?

Angel4Truth
September 18th, 2017, 05:58 PM
So you mean that whenever someone gets drunk, they are really demon possessed?

So you mean you cant read what i said?

Lon
September 18th, 2017, 08:41 PM
You have a genuine compassion for others that's both reassuring and refreshing.
:think: While we are often what we say, I've seen, when push comes to shove, some of these same reach out in incredible compassion, lest we fulfill and us/them mentality. Such carries its own negligence and harm.


I'd be interested in what you'd say to those who would reference a literal, historical interpretation of scriptural accounts of possession.
I've met people who claim it. Most of what I've seen in mental capacity is chemical imbalance. My uncle, a beautiful person who horribly abused his body and mind with drugs, might have been diagnosed with demonic influence and I think spiritually, there are consequences to our choices. Perhaps that is why 'this comes not out without prayer and fasting' Mark 9:29 And perhaps His application to us, is to pray a lot and strive as any kind of medical, psychological, and spiritual help must surely endure. At the end of much prayer, fasting, and trying to help my uncle, he one day asked for a Bible and asked me to pray for him. His mind was not whole, but I believe God heard his prayer. Luke 23:42 For me, the remedy for all is our universal need for our Savior. Mark 2:17

Lon
September 18th, 2017, 08:47 PM
So you mean that whenever someone gets drunk, they are really demon possessed?
Ephesians 5:18 In whatever sense one is filled with God or not, we are what we eat. Alcoholics are often said to be 'wrestling with their demons.'

Having been around alcohol and/or drug abuse from a number of people around me, yes, alcohol has led to some horrific and thus 'demonic' (evil) ends from drunk driving accidents and harm to family friction and poor behavior. Even an atheist would call a good bit of it 'demonic' and or 'satanic and devil influenced' by expression (don't want to go into it that far, some things are best not brought to others' lives or thoughts).