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View Full Version : R the 144,000 of Rev 7 the same as the 144,000 of Rev 14?



RevTestament
July 25th, 2015, 04:33 PM
What say you? Have at it -
scriptural evidences please.

RevTestament
July 27th, 2015, 12:11 PM
Seeing no takers, I will start with a few observations.
The 144,000 of Revelation 7 are sealed unto God by the end of the 6th seal, and are from every tribe of Israel except Dan, and are called the "children of Israel." Rev 7:4 Can this include Gentiles? The Lord says of Ephraim that he shall become many nations, and Hosea says Ephraim is scattered among the Gentiles. It seems some "Gentiles" may be of Ephraim literally.
In Revelation 14 the 144,000, are sealed with the name of the lamb's Father upon their foreheads. This great multitude is “purchased out of the earth,” and they are the “firstfruits unto God and unto the Lamb.” This doesn't imply that they are members of the tribes at all.
If the 144,000 of Rev 7 are the prophets of God were they "redeemed from the earth" or "from among men" or in other words from among the nations?
The 144,000 of Rev 14 sing a new song, which none can learn but them - can this be referring to the prophets of old?

OK that ought to be enough to start a lively discussion...

northwye
July 27th, 2015, 01:56 PM
A question is what is the mission or purpose of the 144,000? It is true that some knowledge on this question is implied in Revelation 14: 1-5 and in Revelation 7: 1-8. Revelation 7: 3 says "...Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees. till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads."

The same Greek word, sphragizo, sealed, is used in II Corinthians 21-22, "Now he which stablisheth us with you in Christ, and hath anointed us, is God;
22. Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts."

Sphragizo is also used in Ephesians 1: 22, "In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise."

"And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption." Ephesians 4: 30

The 144,000 are sealed with the Holy Spirit, and with an anointing, since I Corinthians 1: 21-22 says those sealed with the Holy Spirit also were anointed by Christ. But sealed and anointed for what mission?

In metaphoric language Revelation 14: 1 says the 144,000 stand with Christ, having the Father's name on their foreheads, on mount Zion. They stand in a high place spiritually, meaning they have been raised up high to stand with Jesus Christ. They sing a new song which no one but the 144,000 can learn - which is also metaphoric for a being in a higher spiritual state in their anointing and sealing. They are not defiled with woman, again in metaphoric language, and this fits with their not having guile, meaning they are not deceptive in a world filled with deception. They follow the Lamb whithersoever he leads, and are the firstfruits to God and Christ.

They are a remnant, but this language in Revelation 14 raises them up above other remnants in scripture, such as in Romans 11: 5, the remnant in which God began again his plan of redemption as the New Covenant. However, the Apostles of Christ, who were among that remnant, had a greater anointing directly from Christ than did most of the others There is also the remnant in Revelation 12: 17, who, at the time the serpent-dragon is casting out a flood of lies out of his mouth and is making war with this remnant, are said to have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

But you have to go outside of the Book of Revelation to find out what the mission of the 144,000 is.

"And they that understand among the people shall instruct many: yet they shall fall by the sword, and by flame, by captivity, and by spoil, many days. 34. Now when they shall fall, they shall be holpen with a little help: but many shall cleave to them with flatteries. 35. And some of them of understanding shall fall, to try them, and to purge, and to make them white, even to the time of the end: because it is yet for a time appointed."................"And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever." Daniel 11: 33-35 and Daniel 12: 3.

The dispensationalists will insist that all the 144,000 are all male Jews and will say that Daniel 11: 33-35 is not about the 144,000 because the 144,000 are not mentioned there. And Daniel 11: 33-35 could be applied to the work of the Apostles of Christ in the First Century, a fulfillment which does not necessarily mean it does not apply to the 144,000.

Angel4Truth
July 27th, 2015, 02:24 PM
No, it cannot include gentiles, it says expressly that its 12,000 from each of the 12 tribes of Israel.


Revelation 7:4
4 And I heard the number of those who were sealed. One hundred and forty-four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel were sealed:

5 of the tribe of Judah twelve thousand were sealed;

of the tribe of Reuben twelve thousand were 1sealed;

of the tribe of Gad twelve thousand were sealed;

6 of the tribe of Asher twelve thousand were sealed;

of the tribe of Naphtali twelve thousand were sealed;

of the tribe of Manasseh twelve thousand were sealed;

7 of the tribe of Simeon twelve thousand were sealed;

of the tribe of Levi twelve thousand were sealed;

of the tribe of Issachar twelve thousand were sealed;

8 of the tribe of Zebulun twelve thousand were sealed;

of the tribe of Joseph twelve thousand were sealed;

of the tribe of Benjamin twelve thousand were sealed.

Pretty clear what it says there.

nonanomanon
July 27th, 2015, 03:12 PM
What say you? Have at it -
scriptural evidences please.

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JUDGES 20:3 (Now the children of Benjamin heard that the children of Israel were gone up to Mizpeh.) Then said the children of Israel, Tell [us], how was this wickedness?

Judges 20:3 says the body of Moses is representative of the 144,000. Which is the "Body of Benjamin", the Tribe associated with Heavenly Salvation. That must be removed in order to bring in the "Tribe of Joseph" for 150 days. 144,000 in Rev. 7 is taken by the Lord, and ............ Rev. 14:1-3 and Rev. 15:3, both reference the same 144,000. Judges 20 calls the Body of Benjamin 144,000.

When Moses is slain, when the "Two Witnesses", "Moses and Elias" are slain .......... then and at that time, Jesus said he would divorce the old covenant in order to bring in "New Jerusalem" with Moses in Matthew 19:8. After the "3 Days of Darkness", Moses will be referred to as "Apollyon and Abaddon" (Rev. 9:11), where he was referred to as "Moses and Elias" previously. (God does the killing of Moses, not Satan, the Devil does it for the pleasure of its suicide).

northwye
July 28th, 2015, 08:31 AM
Isaiah 30:20: " And though the Lord give you the bread of adversity, and the water of affliction, yet shall not thy teachers be removed into a corner any more, but thine eyes shall see thy teachers:"

Isaiah 30:21: " And thine ears shall hear a word behind thee, saying, This is the way, walk ye in it, when ye turn to the right hand, and when ye turn to the left."

Isaiah 30: 20 is describing a tribulation time - "the bread of adversity" - when the society, culture and basic morality have fallen - but while this tribulation is going on the teachers are not removed into a corner, but are seen, and Isaiah 30: 21 says those who are able to hear the teachers find the way and walk in it, even in the midst of adversity, affliction and false doctrines all around them.

"And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood....And the dragon was wroth with the woman,and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ."

Though stated in a subtle way, Revelation 12: 15, 17 says there is a spiritual conflict going on here between the minions of the serpent-dragon and the woman with her seed, the remnant. Who is this woman? The best candidate for her is in Galatians 4: 26, "...Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all."

The serpent-dragon acts through his minions the false prophets in casting out of his mouth a flood of lies as he goes to make war against the remnant.

Here is another verse from Isaiah which fits in to the sealing and anointing of the remnant, or the 144,000: Isaiah 10:27: "And it shall come to pass in that day, that his burden shall be taken away from off thy shoulder, and his yoke from off thy neck, and the yoke shall be destroyed because of the anointing. "

1Mind1Spirit
July 28th, 2015, 04:54 PM
No, it cannot include gentiles, it says expressly that its 12,000 from each of the 12 tribes of Israel.


Revelation 7:4
4 And I heard the number of those who were sealed. One hundred and forty-four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel were sealed:

5 of the tribe of Judah twelve thousand were sealed;

of the tribe of Reuben twelve thousand were 1sealed;

of the tribe of Gad twelve thousand were sealed;

6 of the tribe of Asher twelve thousand were sealed;

of the tribe of Naphtali twelve thousand were sealed;

of the tribe of Manasseh twelve thousand were sealed;

7 of the tribe of Simeon twelve thousand were sealed;

of the tribe of Levi twelve thousand were sealed;

of the tribe of Issachar twelve thousand were sealed;

8 of the tribe of Zebulun twelve thousand were sealed;

of the tribe of Joseph twelve thousand were sealed;

of the tribe of Benjamin twelve thousand were sealed.

Pretty clear what it says there.

Those records were destroyed in 70 AD.

So if this wasn't fulfilled then, any one of us ole white boys could fall in amongst them 144,000.

RevTestament
July 28th, 2015, 09:40 PM
A question is what is the mission or purpose of the 144,000? It is true that some knowledge on this question is implied in Revelation 14: 1-5 and in Revelation 7: 1-8. Revelation 7: 3 says "...Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees. till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads."

The same Greek word, sphragizo, sealed, is used in II Corinthians 21-22, "Now he which stablisheth us with you in Christ, and hath anointed us, is God;
22. Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts."

Sphragizo is also used in Ephesians 1: 22, "In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise."

"And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption." Ephesians 4: 30

The 144,000 are sealed with the Holy Spirit, and with an anointing, since I Corinthians 1: 21-22 says those sealed with the Holy Spirit also were anointed by Christ. But sealed and anointed for what mission?

You bring up a good point here, but then don't seem to talk about it, but instead go on to talk about Rev 14. But let's go back to Rev 7:3 which says "...Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees. till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads."

Doesn't this seem to tell us that the 144,000 of Rev 7 are sealed unto God before the plagues of the seventh seal?

northwye
July 29th, 2015, 07:25 AM
I am not sure to what extent the Mormons follow a literalist interpretation of Scripture, as do the dispensationalists. A "letter" type of Bible interpretation goes along with the literalist mind set.

Paul uses "letter" several times in Romans and in II Corinthians. In Romans 2: 29 he says "But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly: and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter..."

In Romans 7: 6 he says "But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held: that we should serve in newness of spirit and not in the oldness of the letter."

In II Corinthians 3: 6 Paul explains more of what he means in saying "Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit given life."

Here is Paul again talking about spiritual life and contrasting it to the letter which kills spiritual life.

On http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic...Book_of_Mormon

They say that "The understanding of Joseph Smith, and,
traditionally, of Mormons in general, is that the Book of Mormon
indicates that the Lamanites, descended from Lehi, are a "remnant of
the House of Israel"

The Mormons have claimed to be descendants of the Lamanites. They too would cling to the literalist belief that Israel in scripture cannot refer
to anyone other than the physical descendants from Abraham. Therefore, the 144,000 in Revelation 7 must be, for them also, literal, physical Jews of the flesh.

The 144,000 are in Revelation 7: 4, "...and there were sealed a hundred and forty four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel."

I remember being on a Christian Yahoo group in about 2010 when some in the group thought that the 144,000 from all the tribes of Old Covenant Israel in Revelation 7 meant that under the New Covenant we are somehow metaphorically in one of the 12 tribes, and some of the people in the group were speculating about which tribe they might belong to. The 144,000 out of the 12 tribes is not literal, but speculating on which tribe you might belong to is not the way to gain an understanding of this metaphor. The Lord may reveal this to some at a time.

But remember what Paul says in II Corinthians 3: 6, "for the letter killeth, but the spirit given life." The Spirit gives spiritual life and for the 144,000 the literalist viewpoint kills spiritual life.

In Romans 2: 29, "But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly: and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter..." means that anyone regardless of his physical DNA (Romans 10: 12, Galatians 3: 28) whose circumcision is of the heart, in the Spirit, and not in the letter (literally, physically) is now a Jew, or a member of Israel.

RevTestament
July 29th, 2015, 10:43 AM
I am not sure to what extent the Mormons follow a literalist interpretation of Scripture, as do the dispensationalists. A "letter" type of Bible interpretation goes along with the literalist mind set.

Paul uses "letter" several times in Romans and in II Corinthians. In Romans 2: 29 he says "But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly: and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter..."

In Romans 7: 6 he says "But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held: that we should serve in newness of spirit and not in the oldness of the letter."

In II Corinthians 3: 6 Paul explains more of what he means in saying "Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit given life."

Here is Paul again talking about spiritual life and contrasting it to the letter which kills spiritual life.LDS Christians understand the letter of the law being the letter of the Torah which we do not follow. Instead we do follow the spirit of the law. That is what Jesus came to teach, and why Jesus stressed that the Father is a Spirit like us - therefore we can relate to Him on a spiritual level. He doesn't care for rote animal sacrifice at all. Those things were meant to teach a repentant heart.


On http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic...Book_of_Mormon

They say that "The understanding of Joseph Smith, and,
traditionally, of Mormons in general, is that the Book of Mormon
indicates that the Lamanites, descended from Lehi, are a "remnant of
the House of Israel"

The Mormons have claimed to be descendants of the Lamanites. They too would cling to the literalist belief that Israel in scripture cannot refer
to anyone other than the physical descendants from Abraham. Therefore, the 144,000 in Revelation 7 must be, for them also, literal, physical Jews of the flesh.I have to interject here as it appears you don't really understand the LDS viewpoint. LDS Christians do not claim to be descendants of the Lamanites. We believe there are American Indians who are descendants of Manasseh, Joseph's son, and were called Lamanites after Laman, one of the early settlers. We also believe Paul that the Gentiles can be grafted into the house of Israel. see Jacob 5.
However, I also believe that Ephraim is mixed into the nations of the Gentiles, and that there are true descendants of Ephraim among the "Gentiles" a term largely used to refer to the descendants of the sons of Javan; Elishah, and Tarshish, Kittim, and Dodanim. " 5 By these were the isles of the Gentiles divided in their lands; every one after his tongue, after their families, in their nations."


The 144,000 are in Revelation 7: 4, "...and there were sealed a hundred and forty four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel."

I remember being on a Christian Yahoo group in about 2010 when some in the group thought that the 144,000 from all the tribes of Old Covenant Israel in Revelation 7 meant that under the New Covenant we are somehow metaphorically in one of the 12 tribes, and some of the people in the group were speculating about which tribe they might belong to. The 144,000 out of the 12 tribes is not literal, but speculating on which tribe you might belong to is not the way to gain an understanding of this metaphor. The Lord may reveal this to some at a time.

But remember what Paul says in II Corinthians 3: 6, "for the letter killeth, but the spirit given life." The Spirit gives spiritual life and for the 144,000 the literalist viewpoint kills spiritual life.

In Romans 2: 29, "But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly: and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter..." means that anyone regardless of his physical DNA (Romans 10: 12, Galatians 3: 28) whose circumcision is of the heart, in the Spirit, and not in the letter (literally, physically) is now a Jew, or a member of Israel.While I agree that even the wild branches can be grafted into the house of Israel, that doesn't mean that the 144,000 refer to all the followers, and I would have to disagree. I also agree that Revelation uses highly symbolic and metaphorical language. If you are inferring that all the followers are saved to a literal one big "saved room" of the Father, I have to disagree with that too. Jesus said in my Father's house are many rooms, I go to prepare a place for you.
Matt 16: 27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.
The notion that everyone receives the same reward as a "saved" soul is false. Jesus gave several parables about this. He also said things like:

Matthew 20:23 And he saith unto them, Ye shall drink indeed of my cup, and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with: but to sit on my right hand, and on my left, is not mine to give, but it shall be given to them for whom it is prepared of[by] my Father.

We are not just haphazard creations. The Father knew us before we were born and formed in the belly. Jer 1:4-5. That is because our spirits were not created with our bodies out of dust, but the life was blown into our created bodies by God, and can return to God when our bodies die. Eccl 12:7.

So the question I posed remains up for discussion:
let's go back to Rev 7:3 which says "...Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees. till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads."

Doesn't this seem to tell us that the 144,000 of Rev 7 are sealed unto God before the plagues of the seventh seal?

northwye
July 29th, 2015, 01:16 PM
Matthew 24: 21-22, 29-30 says "For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22. And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.........29. Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30. And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory."

The darkening of the sun and moon, stars falling and the heavens shaken sounds like Revelation 8: 7-13. But Matthew 24: 29 says these changes in the heavens, meaning the sun, moon and stars, are to occur after the tribulation. What then is the tribulation?

There is a conflict described in metaphoric language in Revelation 12: 3-6, 14-17 in which the dragon opposes the women and she goes into the wilderness. Again in verse 14 the woman is said to go into the wilderness, and in verses 15 to 17 the dragon-serpent casts a flood out of his mouth, after the woman and goes to make war with the woman's seed, the remnant, who have the testimony of Jesus Christ. The woman in Revelation 12 would be "Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all..." Galatians 4: 26

Daniel 11: 33-35 describes a group, "they that understand," who instruct many and "they shall fall by the sword, and by flame, by captivity, and by spoil, many days." This is again a conflict. Daniel 8: 23 says when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up." But look at the transgressors, Strong's number 6586, pasha, "to break away, from just authority, i.e, trespass, apostatize, quarrel, offend, rebel...." The False Prophets like to quarrel with the word of God, claiming they have the word of God.

Just as there is no one super False Prophet or one man super Anti-Christ (many antichrists running around and the spirit of anti-Christ in I John 4: 3), so the king of fierce countenance who stands up when the transgressors (apostates) are come to the full is not one man. Matthew 24: 11 says "And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many."

Matthew 24: 5 warns that many shall come in Christ's name, saying the Lord is Christ, but they will deceive many. And again in Matthew 24: 24 Christ warns that 'For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect." This is all said before the statement of Matthew 24: 29 saying that after the tribulation the changes in the heavens will occur.

The tribulation, according to Matthew 24 is to be characterized by many false prophets. The false prophets are the human minions who carry out the telling of lies as the flood of lies coming out of the mouth of the dragon-serpent in Revelation 12.

Daniel 11: 33, supported by Isaiah 30:21, describes they that understand teaching many. But "...some of them of understanding shall fall, to try them, and ti purge, and to make them white, even to the time of the end..." Daniel 11: 35.

Daniel 11: 33 says "they" shall fall by the sword, by flame and by captivity. This is a battle, and the apostates who are on one side of this battle are seen in Daniel 8: 23.

The 144,000 are in this battle and since Matthew 24 says the tribulation is a time of the rise of many false prophets, then the 144,000 would have been sealed and anointed for this battle before the tribulation begins or before the worst part begins. They are sealed before the tribulation and thus before the earth and heaven changes occur.

nonanomanon
July 29th, 2015, 03:58 PM
Those records were destroyed in 70 AD.

So if this wasn't fulfilled then, any one of us ole white boys could fall in amongst them 144,000.

lN8G9Wsnb6s

One of the Ancient Books were recently resurrected, we can't be sure if that is true or not, so we will come back to this issue, but first:

Mark of the Beast under Reuben
DANIEL 7:7 After this I saw in the night visions, and behold a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, and strong exceedingly; and it had great iron teeth: it devoured and brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with the feet of it: and it [was] diverse from all the beasts that [were] before it; and it had ten horns.
REVELATION 7:5 Of the tribe of Juda [were] sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Reuben [were] sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Gad [were] sealed twelve thousand.

This is a picture of the Souls given salvation under the God Head, judged from God.

Mark of the Beast under Nepthalim
DANIEL 7:6 After this I beheld, and lo another, like a leopard, which had upon the back of it four wings of a fowl; the beast had also four heads; and dominion was given to it.
REVELATION 7:6 Of the tribe of Aser [were] sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Nepthalim [were] sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Manasses [were] sealed twelve thousand.

This is a picture of the Souls given salvation under the God Head, judged from the Holy Spirit.

Mark of the Beast under Simeon
DANIEL 7:5 And behold another beast, a second, like to a bear, and it raised up itself on one side, and [it had] three ribs in the mouth of it between the teeth of it: and they said thus unto it, Arise, devour much flesh.
REVELATION 7:7 Of the tribe of Simeon [were] sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Levi [were] sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Issachar [were] sealed twelve thousand.

This is a picture of the Souls given salvation under the God Head, judged from the Sons of God. (Simeon can be a substitute for Levi, because the Tribe of Levites had the title of "Head of the Priesthood", we cannot attribute as a division of Heavenly Salvation ......... saying Simeon is almost the same as saying Levi)

Mark of the Beast under Benjamin
DANIEL 7:6 After this I beheld, and lo another, like a leopard, which had upon the back of it four wings of a fowl; the beast had also four heads; and dominion was given to it.
REVELATION 7:8 Of the tribe of Zabulon [were] sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Joseph [were] sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Benjamin [were] sealed twelve thousand.

This is a picture of the Souls given salvation under the God Head, judged from Christ as the Messiah. (Zabulon is another name for the Curse of Creation, Joseph is another name for the Blessing of Creation .............. Benjamin on the other hand is another name for the Judgment Program. The Tribe of Benjamin is the tribe manifested as the Tribe associated with Heavenly Salvation).

http://i1112.photobucket.com/albums/k492/psalmsamuel/Sandra%20and%20Woo_zpswp19rtfa.jpg

1. List of attempts at resurrecting ancient books. Article Link (http://scienceblogs.de/klausis-krypto-kolumne/klaus-schmehs-list-of-encrypted-books/).
2. Attempt of resurrecting the book of 144,000. Article Link (http://www.sandraandwoo.com/2013/07/29/0500-the-book-of-woo/).

God does not view time the same way, it is not linear. Jesus is still suffering at the Crucifixion, Moses is still delivering the Hebrews out of Egypt, David is still doing battle with Goliath, and Lazarus is still rising out of his tomb. Heavenly Salvation is finished when Benjamin is removed at the 3 Days of Darkness, yes. But the Gospel cannot be completed until all 70 Angels of Daniel 9 are slain. That can only happen when Christ comes down form the Cross after the 150 days of Star Wormwood.

(God the Concealed Fox Twins, the Holy Spirit the revealed Fox Shadow, the Sons of Man the Dogs, and Christ the Stork) (The International Space Station, and the International Space Observatories, have collectively chosen not to disclose pertinent information about the few days the Antichrist has left before the final sequence begins, they have willingly chosen to do this. We can only estimate there is less then 30 days now remaining until more then 95% of human life on earth is eliminated)

RevTestament
July 29th, 2015, 09:21 PM
The woman in Revelation 12 would be "Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all..." Galatians 4: 26Thanks for your input. Let me say tho how I see things. I don't believe the woman in Rev 12 is Jerusalem. The woman represents the church which is forced into the wilderness during a 1260 yr apostasy. She was pained to be delivered of the "man-child" because of the persecutions the early church suffered.


Daniel 11: 33-35 describes a group, "they that understand," who instruct many and "they shall fall by the sword, and by flame, by captivity, and by spoil, many days." This is again a conflict. This has already been fulfilled and represents the followers who were killed in crusades and by being burnt at the stake in their attempts to worship God in truth.

Daniel 8: 23 says when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up." But look at the transgressors, Strong's number 6586, pasha, "to break away, from just authority, i.e, trespass, apostatize, quarrel, offend, rebel...." The False Prophets like to quarrel with the word of God, claiming they have the word of God.I believe this pertains to a person of power in the area of the middle east who may not have come on the scene yet. To be frank I don't know who it is - perhaps a Muslim claiming to be the Mahdi or something like that.


Just as there is no one super False Prophet or one man super Anti-Christ (many antichrists running around and the spirit of anti-Christ in I John 4: 3), so the king of fierce countenance who stands up when the transgressors (apostates) are come to the full is not one man. Matthew 24: 11 says "And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many."

Matthew 24: 5 warns that many shall come in Christ's name, saying the Lord is Christ, but they will deceive many. I read that last scripture as many will claim to be "christ" or our Savior, etc. An example would be someone like David Koresh, as you post in this next verse here:

And again in Matthew 24: 24 Christ warns that 'For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect." This is all said before the statement of Matthew 24: 29 saying that after the tribulation the changes in the heavens will occur.

The tribulation, according to Matthew 24 is to be characterized by many false prophets. The false prophets are the human minions who carry out the telling of lies as the flood of lies coming out of the mouth of the dragon-serpent in Revelation 12.
OK

Daniel 11: 33, supported by Isaiah 30:21, describes they that understand teaching many. But "...some of them of understanding shall fall, to try them, and to purge, and to make them white, even to the time of the end..." Daniel 11: 35.
Here we see that this does not pertain to the resurrection of Christ, but the next resurrection.
Seems to be parallel to the fall of Adam:
Gen 3: 22 ¶And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

Daniel 11: 33 says "they" shall fall by the sword, by flame and by captivity. This is a battle, and the apostates who are on one side of this battle are seen in Daniel 8: 23.
Being that Dan 11:33 has already been fulfilled, I disagree. Dan 8:23 has yet to happen.

The 144,000 are in this battle and since Matthew 24 says the tribulation is a time of the rise of many false prophets, then the 144,000 would have been sealed and anointed for this battle before the tribulation begins or before the worst part begins. They are sealed before the tribulation and thus before the earth and heaven changes occur.
I have to disagree if you are talking about the 144,000 of Rev 7, since they were sealed unto God by the end of the 6th seal. We are now in the 7th thousand years or the 7th seal. So the 144,000 do not live in the time of the great tribulation in the 7th seal. Which kind of brings me to another point. The 2 witnesses of Rev 11 in the 7th seal cannot be of the 144,000 who are sealed unto God by the end of the 6th seal in Rev 7...

way 2 go
July 29th, 2015, 09:32 PM
Those records were destroyed in 70 AD.

So if this wasn't fulfilled then, any one of us ole white boys could fall in amongst them 144,000.
God has not lost track of anything
he knows which Jew is in which tribe

Mat 10:30 But even the hairs of your head are all numbered.

nonanomanon
July 30th, 2015, 01:12 AM
God has not lost track of anything
he knows which Jew is in which tribe

Mat 10:30 But even the hairs of your head are all numbered.

We will need to establish an alias of Judah first, secondarily we need to understand how this is connected to the 144,000

NUMBERS 32:37 And the children of Reuben built Heshbon, and Elealeh, and Kirjathaim,

Elealeh is Aaron, Kirjathaim is Judah

NUMBERS 26:9 And the sons of Eliab; Nemuel, and Dathan, and Abiram. This [is that] Dathan and Abiram, [which were] famous in the congregation, who strove against Moses and against Aaron in the company of Korah, when they strove against the LORD:
NUMBERS 26:10 And the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed them up together with Korah, when that company died, what time the fire devoured two hundred and fifty men: and they became a sign.
JOSHUA 21:4 And the lot came out for the families of the Kohathites: and the children of Aaron the priest, [which were] of the Levites, had by lot out of the tribe of Judah, and out of the tribe of Simeon, and out of the tribe of Benjamin, thirteen cities.
II CHRONICLES 29:20 Then Hezekiah the king rose early, and gathered the rulers of the city, and went up to the house of the LORD.
II CHRONICLES 29:21 And they brought seven bullocks, and seven rams, and seven lambs, and seven he goats, for a sin offering for the kingdom, and for the sanctuary, and for Judah. And he commanded the priests the sons of Aaron to offer [them] on the altar of the LORD.

When Aaron betrayed Moses, God removed Aaron from the Levites, in that sense Aaron was killed (Moses is betrayed by Aaron during the 40 Days of Repentance). God also declares that through a "Sacrifice by Fire", Aaron was redeemed of Korah (Num 26:9-10) .................. God exclaims a second time that Aaron was redeemed of the Kohathites ................ Finally God tells us that Aaron was redeemed of Judah with Moses, from a "Sacrifice by Fire", and they were really the Kohathites ... because remember what happened ... Hezekiah condemns Aaron to death for its Assyrian Sin by 185,000 ... even though God allowed Moses to pardon Aaron through a "Sacrifice by Fire" previously. But remember what happens at the end of time, God kills a portion of Aaron and a portion of Dan, when "Every Eye Shall See", the coming of the lord for a few hours. At the same time, the "Marriages by Fire, and Aaron's Repentance by Fire" takes place .................... Korah and the Kohathites are Judah

JEREMIAH 48:41 Kerioth is taken, and the strong holds are surprised, and the mighty men's hearts in Moab at that day shall be as the heart of a woman in her pangs.
JEREMIAH 48:45 They that fled stood under the shadow of Heshbon because of the force: but a fire shall come forth out of Heshbon, and a flame from the midst of Sihon, and shall devour the corner of Moab, and the crown of the head of the tumultuous ones.

Matt 2:17-19 says in short: Aaron was intended to keep Jerusalem for the Lord (Aaron as the Suckling Child/Weeping Child), because the same Angel that condemned Aaron to death for 185,000 ... appears to announce the act of establishing Jerusalem as Aaron's Repentance. What happens unfortunately as the Gospel describes is the fact that, a portion of Aaron established Italy instead which is revealed as a genetic line associated with a clergy, this portion under Hezekiah must die, so the portion of Aaron under Moses can be judged by a "Sacrifice of Fire". ....................... When Judah/Kerioth gave Jesus Christ the Crown, it was a form of rebuke for Aaron, this announcing the condemnation of Matt 2:17-19 ...... in which Jesus Christ gave Judah the title of "Head of the Tribes" or reign over the nations, and removed this title from Aaron, while Aaron maintained the title of "Head of the Priesthood", to reign over the church (and finish its war with god) ........... Kerioth is another name for Judah, now we can approach how this is connected to the 144,000 of Revelations:

Reuben not Listed with Judah (Reuben is unlike the other 4 Beasts of Daniel, in that context, we'll come back to this)
I CHRONICLES 6:63 Unto the sons of Merari [were given] by lot, throughout their families, out of the tribe of Reuben, and out of the tribe of Gad, and out of the tribe of Zebulun, twelve cities.

Simeon and Benjamin are listed with Judah
I CHRONICLES 6:65 And they gave by lot out of the tribe of the children of Judah, and out of the tribe of the children of Simeon, and out of the tribe of the children of Benjamin, these cities, which are called by [their] names.

Naphtali listed with Judah (Nepthalim is given in Rev. 7, because Naphtali is used as Separatist Inheritor*)
I CHRONICLES 6:76 And out of the tribe of Naphtali; Kedesh in Galilee with her suburbs, and Hammon with her suburbs, and Kirjathaim with her suburbs.

Kirjathaim is another name for Judah. Now our attention will go back to Reuben not being listed with Judah, but Reuben is listed with Judah in Revelation 7. God gave Judah the title of "Head of the Tribes", and it has done a piss poor job of bringing the gospel to the nations as a whole. Such a piss poor job, that God designed language to cut down Judah's size to a single nation based on the Jewish population. The USA has also done a very poor job of doing much of anything, other than warmongering. Therefore God, wants Judah excluded from the 144,000 ....... so the "Heart of Judah" can be judged by the space of 153 days or 150 days under the authority of the Antichrist. Moses was given authority over Korah/Judah when they were put to death by fire in the Old Testament, so this is simply revisited.

(The Nuclear Exchange in Europe and India will ultimately mean nothing because the law will not be satisfied, no one has prepared since this is all a big joke ............ the suffering and death they will cause, in failing to confirm the covenant, should turn into additional blessings from the holy spirit ............ that is how we must view the ultimate end of what happens, as serving our immediate goals ................ to these ends we must remain faithful, so that they remain blind until such and such a time, as the time these things are needed done ....... as I've stated the antichrist is simply a pinata, beat him to death)

northwye
July 30th, 2015, 07:08 AM
Bible prophecy says there is an opposition between a remnant faithful to the teachings of Jesus Christ (Revelation 12: 17, Revelation 14: 1-5) and the many False Prophets of Matthew 24: 11, called the transgressors in Daniel 8: 23. And Daniel 8: 23 says there will be a time when the transgressors or False Prophets will have come to the full. The opposition of two positions, the dialectic, in scripture in the end times is between the False Prophets and the remnant. The Falser Prophets and their followers, the multitude, are much more numerous than are the remnant.

Recently a guy wrote an attack upon Dean Gotcher, a Christian teacher disliked in the churches because of his messages, saying of Gotcher that "Gotcher is implementing the dialectic when he exploits the polarization
of church and society into left vs. right wing for his so-called ministry."

He is saying that while Gotcher exposes the use of the Marxist version of the Hegelian dialectic in helping to bring about the present day apostasy of the church, Gotcher makes use of that same dialectic in polarizing church and society into left versus right wing.

The guy is wrong in describing the two positions as left wing versus right wing as far as the church is concerned. Politically, the dispensationalists, for example, are more conservative than are many who are not dispensationalists.

In scripture on the rise of the false prophets and those under the spirit of Anti-Christ in the end time - both have been around all along - make up one position of a two-part dialectic. The other position is held by those who try to hold to the truth. Jude 1: 3 says "...ye should earnestly content for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints." This is the true opposition of positions in scripture.

The false prophets who bring in damnable heresies are also in II Peter 2: 1-3, where they speak evil of the truth, and make merchandise of you. In II Timothy 3: 1, 7-8 in last days of perilous times people are described as being lovers of their own selves, "ever learning and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth"..."these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, reprobate concerning the faith." The False Prophets and their followers speak evil of the truth, while claiming to have the truth themselves.

The falling away in the end times (apostasy, from the Greek apostasia) of II Thessalonians 2: 3-7 happens when the transgressors of Daniel 8: 23 are come to the full, are at their highest point of compromising the teachings of Christ. Paul writes about the same thing in I Timothy 4: 1-2, II Timothy 3: 13, and II Timothy 4: 3-4. Luke 13: 18-21 says the kingdom of God will be leavened until whole is leavened. The meaning of leaven in scripture is made clear in Matthew 16: 6, 12, in I Corinthians 5: 6-8 and in Galatians 5: 11.

The falling away from sound doctrine in the end time in the church because of the work of the many false prophets sets up that dialectic or two part opposition between the False Prophets and their followers versus the remnant of Israel.

RevTestament
July 30th, 2015, 09:10 AM
Bible prophecy says there is an opposition between a remnant faithful to the teachings of Jesus Christ (Revelation 12: 17, Revelation 14: 1-5) and the many False Prophets of Matthew 24: 11, called the transgressors in Daniel 8: 23. And Daniel 8: 23 says there will be a time when the transgressors or False Prophets will have come to the full.

OK, I think we talked about that, but this thread is really about 144,000 of Rev 7 & 14.... I would like to stay on the subject.

If you are responding to nonanomanon, I request that he go elsewhere unless he is going to discuss the topic in a relevant way.
Thanks in advance.

nonanomanon
July 30th, 2015, 04:36 PM
Bible prophecy says there is an opposition between a remnant faithful to the teachings of Jesus Christ (Revelation 12: 17, Revelation 14: 1-5) and the many False Prophets of Matthew 24: 11, called the transgressors in Daniel 8: 23. And Daniel 8: 23 says there will be a time when the transgressors or False Prophets will have come to the full. The opposition of two positions, the dialectic, in scripture in the end times is between the False Prophets and the remnant. The Falser Prophets and their followers, the multitude, are much more numerous than are the remnant.
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In scripture on the rise of the false prophets and those under the spirit of Anti-Christ in the end time - both have been around all along - make up one position of a two-part dialectic. The other position is held by those who try to hold to the truth. Jude 1: 3 says "...ye should earnestly content for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints." This is the true opposition of positions in scripture.

Lets rephrase the question, How can we invalidate the 144,000 as a description of salvation, and How can we prove this figure of 144,000 is really another description of Satan?

We'll have to rely on the language the gospel uses to invalidate the 144,000.

JUDGES 20:10 And we will take ten men of an hundred throughout all the tribes of Israel, and an hundred of a thousand, and a thousand out of ten thousand, to fetch victual for the people, that they may do, when they come to Gibeah of Benjamin, according to all the folly that they have wrought in Israel.

Parable of Matthew 13

1. Seed by the Way Side = 10 Men of 100 (Matt 13:19)
2. Seed in Stony Places = 100 Men of 1000 (Matt 13:20)
3. Seed among Thorns = 1000 Men of 10,000 (Matt 13:22)
4. Seed into Good Ground = 10,000 Men of 100,000 (Matt 13:23)

100,000 of Benjamin (Judges 20:10) + 1st Day of 22,000 (Judges 20:21-22) + 2nd Day of 18,000 (Judges 20:24-25) + 3rd Day of "About 30 Men" (Judges 20:30-31) = 140,030 and not 144,000 because Satan is included at the "3 Days of Darkness", God invalidated 144,000 as a figure that deals with Heavenly Salvation.

(The Literal figure of Heavenly Salvation is 6000 Souls, no more, no less, that includes Moses regardless of the fact that the Gospel's Language describes Moses as a fallen angel, and equal to Melchisedec which is Christ .... back to topic .... Judas throws "About 30 Shekels" into the Church, because this was a picture of God including Satan into the figure of 144,000 ..... matching the description of Judges 20 in how the 144,000 of Benjamin is broken, now that we've invalidated 144,000 as a Literal figure, lets continue:)


OK, I think we talked about that, but this thread is really about 144,000 of Rev 7 & 14.... I would like to stay on the subject.

144,000 of Revelation 7 is a reference to the "Body of Benjamin" those receiving Heavenly Salvation, therefore God separates Satan:

1. 144,000 of Rev. 7:3-4 cannot receive "Star Wormwood", which must consume the Universe
2. Satan is describe as "Those that are Clothed in White" or Star Wormwood.

144,000 of Revelation 14 is a reference to the "Body of Christ", because Satan is included in the description:

1. 144,000 of Revelation 14:3 is a reference to Satan because, "Star Wormwood" which redeems the Earth is referenced
2. Satan is blessed by Christ/Lamb who is not in Heaven, but he is now sitting in Zion (Rev. 14:1). Zion is the last Separatist Inheritance* which is of Judah, that God must judge in order to complete the "Body of Christ", and finish rising up satan along with the saints.

(Judah is stated in Revelation 5:5 as being Judged by the 153 Days described in Revelation. If this is absolutely true, then Judah is set aside from the 144,000 ............. that is what we wanted to achieve based on a correspondance in the Gospel description, and evidence that God isolated Judah with "Fire" before Moses in the past, because Moses comes again as the Antichrist to judge Judah. ................. Rev. 14:1 says Zion is judged also indicating only a portion of Judah remains on earth)

nonanomanon
July 30th, 2015, 05:52 PM
(Commentary Enclosed in Parenthesis)

EXODUS 12:37 And the children of Israel journeyed from Rameses to Succoth, about six hundred thousand on foot [that were] men, beside children.
JUDGES 20:10 And we will take ten men of an hundred throughout all the tribes of Israel, and an hundred of a thousand, and a thousand out of ten thousand, to fetch victual for the people, that they may do, when they come to Gibeah of Benjamin, according to all the folly that they have wrought in Israel.

Moses Saved 600,000 out of his body, but what is God's Salvation Program?

Is it 60,000 of 600,000 ... no its not
Is it 6,000 of 60,000 ... no its not
Is it 600 of 6000 ... no its not
Is it 60 of 600 ... no its not

If it is none of these figures are true, then what is the correct figure?

The Genealogy of Luke 3 lists 70 people, they were not created as perfect beings .......... then the Genealogy of Matthew includes Mary, and because Mary was a Hebrew, the Genealogy was terminated. Now the gospel teaches us how many souls will obtain heavenly salvation at the end of the gospel program, so how many?

Out of the 70 people listed in Luke 3:

1. God is a perfect being
2. Jesus is a perfect being
3. Enoch walked with God so he is also a perfect being, the Holy Spirit is a perfect being
4. Moses was created as a perfect being, he cannot be counted, Moses is not listed but he is revealed as Joseph

That leaves approximately 66 souls that were not created as perfect beings in the Genealogy of Luke 3, matching the 66 Books of the Gospel ... ... ... ... One perspective is the 600,000 Moses saved is invalidated because he is a fallen angel, and they can't save souls, at least not until he is allowed to reign as a Fallen Angel ... ... ... ... that is one perspective, which makes Genetic Dan 1000% more of a public threat, and our current pattern will not be sufficient to contain it, meaning it will have to go away before Aaron does, but we don't want that to happen, and nobody believes this position, after all there is no Antichrist with the power to end the Covenant Jesus established ... ... ... ... another position is that since God created Moses as a perfect being, he can only be an artificial fallen angel, because God has no need to create fallen angels, but he made an exception with Moses ... ... ... ... our dialogue will simply have to end on this paradox, since there is less then 30 days left to the termination of more then 95% of human life on earth ... ... ... ... and everything that we've established, we intend to see satisfied, very soon, in a less then 30 days you will have your chance to balance the tables, that will happen soon.

(Jesus Christ was the Last Son of God, and the rest were phonies .... until the Antichrist, if you follow the Genealogy of Luke 3, you can understand how hopeless and futile it has been these 12,000 days ... of ending your lives by killing the Antichrist ... and how hopeless it is for Aaron to attempt to avoid its fate along with an infinite number of other individuals ... I did not intend to reveal this truth or to make this statement, so I will have to do something to take your attention away ... fortunately I've already started to take a look at something) (I don't care, I don't care, I don't care ... sure if there was an Antichrist he would of made that statement ... but it would be also correct to say that tremendous power has been used to stop humanity from terminating itself through the mechanism of suicide, a desire that authenticates what will happen soon, because it is necessary to protect your potential, and the course that is set will not change or be altered ............ ofcourse this is only possible if 100% if everything the Antichrist has claimed is true is true, and there is "Zero Fallibility" to these claims, it is only because it is already much to late, that is why these simple statements are readily put forth ..... who knows and who cares, that is the trend in society, but not for us keeping watch)

RevTestament
July 31st, 2015, 12:01 AM
Lets rephrase the question, How can we invalidate the 144,000 as a description of salvation, and How can we prove this figure of 144,000 is really another description of Satan?

We'll have to rely on the language the gospel uses to invalidate the 144,000.

I have an idea - let's not invalidate them. This is my thread, and you are trolling it, and trying to change the subject. If you post nonsense here again, I will report it.

northwye
July 31st, 2015, 06:48 AM
The amillennial interpretation of the 144,000 is that they represent all the saved people of all time, and not a remnant that comes about in the end time. This has been the Catholic position on the 144,000 and many of the traditional Calvinists also. Of course, the amillenial position does not see the 144,000 as being a remnant at the end of the age, right before Christ appears, nor does it see them as a remnant at all.

They have to be a remnant when they are sealed over some period in time. As a remnant, they, like earlier remnants used by God, began anew his work of redemption when the multitude has fallen away into false doctrines and practices. And here is where those in the false doctrines reject this teaching of a falling away and of a remnant that takes up anew the work of redemption for the Lord.

The remnant in Romans 11: 1-5 began again, the work of redemption in a more important way, than did the remnant which under Zerubbabel, Ezra and Nehemiah returned to Jerusalem to rebuild the wall and temple and restore the Old Covenant. In Haggai 2: 9, "The glory of this latter house shall be greater than of the former, saith the Lord of hosts..."

Since the 144,000 are sealed, come into existence, at a specific time, the end time, not long before the return of Christ, they must have a mission. And that mission involves the predicted falling away of II Thessalonians 2: 3-4 and the work of the False Prophets of Matthew 24 in what it called the tribulation.

There are some Old Testament prophecies in Zechariah 13: 8-9 and in Ezekiel 5: 1-12 that are relevant to the remnant, which would include the 144,000. I am not sure at this time whether that remnant mentioned in Revelation 12: 17, having the testimony of Christ, is the 144,000 or not, but they very well could be. This is because of the meaning of the metaphoric language in Revelation 12 about the dragon-serpent casting a flood (of lies) out of his mouth and going to make war with the remnant. This is the time when the False Prophets are at a high point in their work of diminishing the spiritual power of the truth of God's word.

"And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the LORD, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein. 9. And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The LORD is my God." Zechariah 13: 8-9

The three parts in Zechariah 13: 8-9 do not have to be three exact one-thirds of some population. Its just three groups or parts, where only one part or one group is refined and tried and made a people of God. The one part refined and made a people of God could be a remnant, a few people.

"And thou, son of man, take thee a sharp knife, take thee a barber's rasor, and cause it to pass upon thine head and upon thy beard: then take thee balances to weight, and divide the hair.
2. Thou shalt burn with fire a third part in the midst of the city, when the days of the siege are fulfilled: and thou shalt take a third part, and smite about it with a knife: and a third part thou shalt scatter in the wind; and I will draw out a sword after them. 3. Thou shalt also take thereof a few in number, and bind them in thy skirts..............A third part of thee shall die with the pestilence, and with famine shall they be consumed in the midst of thee: and a third part shall fall by the sword round about thee and I will scatter a third part into all the winds, and I will draw out a sword after them." Ezekiel 5: 1-3, 12

Here again, though in metaphoric language, we have three parts. But look there is another smaller group which is bound in Ezekiel's skirts, which is a remnant. Ezekiel 5 does not say what the Lord plans to do with these few in number bound in Ezekiel's skirts. Putting Ezekiel 5 together with Zechariah 13: 9, we can see that this group of few in Ezekiel's skirts become the people of God.

Hosea 14:9 says "Who is wise, and he shall understand these things? prudent, and he shall know them? for the ways of the LORD are right, and the just shall walk in them: but the transgressors shall fall therein. Who is wise? " Again, those who understand are contrasted in Hosea 14: 9 with the transgressors, the pasha, Strong's 6586, meaning not just those who commit sins, but meaning "to break away from just authority, trespass, apostatize, quarrel, offend rebel, revolt....." The opposition, the conflict, the separation, is between those who understand, now the remnant, and the pasha, whose who quarrel with the truth.

The point is that Revelation 7 and 14 on the 144,000 cannot be fully understood in total isolation from other scripture. Scripture must always be interpreted by other relevant scripture, but the other scriptures you use to interpret scripture have to be relevant as you are led by the Holy Spirit in selecting the right scriptures to use.

"For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:" Isaiah 28: 10

Isaiah 28: 10 is one authority for interpreting scripture by relevant scripture and not by a tradition of men (Matthew 15: 6, 9).

Lazy afternoon
July 31st, 2015, 05:17 PM
Doesn't this seem to tell us that the 144,000 of Rev 7 are sealed unto God before the plagues of the seventh seal?

They are sealed before the trumpets which all occur before the 7th seal vials of wrath begin.

Rev 9:4 And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.

LA

nonanomanon
July 31st, 2015, 06:43 PM
The amillennial interpretation of the 144,000 is that they represent all the saved people of all time, and not a remnant that comes about in the end time. This has been the Catholic position on the 144,000 and many of the traditional Calvinists also. Of course, the amillenial position does not see the 144,000 as being a remnant at the end of the age, right before Christ appears, nor does it see them as a remnant at all.

They have to be a remnant when they are sealed over some period in time. As a remnant, they, like earlier remnants used by God, began anew his work of redemption when the multitude has fallen away into false doctrines and practices. And here is where those in the false doctrines reject this teaching of a falling away and of a remnant that takes up anew the work of redemption for the Lord.

Genealogy of Luke Correspondence to 144,000

(Groupings by Influential Stances)

Revelation Tribes (Mystery of First Heaven1, Mystery of Water2, Mystery of the Earth3)
REVELATION 7:5 Of the tribe of Juda3 [were] sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Reuben1 [were] sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Gad2 [were] sealed twelve thousand.
Baptismal Tribes (Mystery of Angels1, Mystery of the Spirit2, Mystery of the Deep3)
REVELATION 7:6 Of the tribe of Aser2 [were] sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Nepthalim1 [were] sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Manasses3 [were] sealed twelve thousand.
High Priest Tribes (Mystery of Melchisedec1, Mystery of the Gospel2, Mystery of the Sons of God3)
REVELATION 7:7 Of the tribe of Simeon2[were] sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Levi3 [were] sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Issachar1 [were] sealed twelve thousand.
Creation Tribes (Mystery before the 5 Months1, Mystery of 5 Months established2, Mystery of 5 Months Abolished3)
REVELATION 7:8Of the tribe of Zabulon1 [were] sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Joseph3 [were] sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Benjamin2 [were] sealed twelve thousand.

God - Reuben (144,000 of Heaven, no Satan)
Adam - Issachar (Melchisedec the High Priest, Jesus as a High Priest) (establishes the gospel)
Seth - Zabulon (The Curse)
Enos - Nepthalim (Jesus as an Angel) (gives the gospel)
Cainan - Simeon (Wars against the Holy Spirit as a High Priest)
Maleleel - Gad (attributed to Holy Spirit)
Jared - Juda (tribe separated from the 144,000)
Enoch - Benjamin (Tribe connected to Heavenly Salvation)
Mathusala - Aser (attributed to the Holy Spirit)
Lamech - Manasses (The Curse Times Seventy)
Noe - Levi (Jesus speaking through Sons of God) (brings the Gospel)
Sem - Joseph (The Blessing)

(You must observe the intelligent design, as a prophecy revealed about the gospel. Gad and Aser replace Dan and Aaron from the transition in the tribes from Chronicles to Revelation, because the Holy Spirit is receiving the Blessing. In this judgment program, which is attributed to Benjamin as the Heavenly Salvation ... the Holy Spirit is restricted with a Curse ...)

Enoch Walked with God, and he was the Seventh From Adam. However, God created the Earth in Six Days, and this happened before Enoch (Establishing and completing the 144,000 of Heavenly Salvation in its completeness before the Events of Genesis):

6 Days of Creation according to Genesis:

1. Adam
2. Seth
3. Enos
4. Cainan
5. Mahalaleel
6. Jared (Heavenly Salvation Program of 66 Souls completed before Creation Began, when you take away, God/Jesus/Enoch/Joseph (Moses the Antichrist)
7. Enoch

Moses was saved as a "Fallen Angel" by God, or he was created as a perfect being. All that means is God did not complete Moses's Judgment with this Judgment Program, Moses's Judgment was completed in another of God's Judgments, and then God just introduced him as a perfect being. Where as all the other 66 Souls God had finished their judgment of Heavenly Salvation as apart of the basis of Creation of this Earth and Universe. God never judged them for Salvation at all, when he resurrected them to give the Gospel that is recorded in the Bible's 66 books.

God has the tremendous problem of reducing his "Foot Print", with the Holy Spirit, because God is not making slaves .......... God wants 100% of the Gospel's Account since Creation to be accredited to the Holy Spirit, the salvation program spoken of is simply Naphtali's 200,000,000 unless it is attributed to the Separatist Inheritors* at the end of time when Satan is united to the "Body of Christ". And the 144,000 reflects both the "Body of Benjamin" that was accounted for in full shortly before Creation, and the 144,000 of Satan that joins the "Body of Benjamin", and then they are together called the "Body of Christ".

After the end of the 153 days all the saved are taken up with the saints then the body of satan is divided accordingly in the new universe. ........................ When I said the Apostle Peter was counted as a Phoney in another discussion, and the Antichrist will be seen as a Phoney too ............. what I was trying to say was, Jesus declared with the Apostle Peter that no more Sons of God would be given, but at the end of days, another like unto the Son of God would come, that would be the Antichrist. It is just because God finished the judgment of the Antichrist outside of this judgment program altogether, that Jesus can make that claim. Nonetheless the Antichrist is the Law and the Prophets, and that is why God allows him to confirm the covenant. We are now less then 30 days until a portion of Dan and a portion of Aaron are terminated to announce both the "Sacrifice by Fire", and the "Marriage by Fire".

The 144,000 of Reuben is an isolated figure, God never began his Heavenly Salvation in the first place after creation started. However, the 144,000 of Benjamin has been counting like the Heavenly Salvation program has been established at creation ............ that is because God is gathering his Body or the "Body of Christ", which is completed when the 144,000 of the Saints and Satan are taken up together by God, and then God gives them both the blessing.

The 66 Souls, plus Moses in addition, God had resurrected to give the gospel were saving the 144,000 of Benjamin, yes that is a true statement. It was for Christ's sake that he sent his elect, and to save a great many that belong to his church. That is because the judgment program is immediately designed to give Satan the full potential the gospel affords. It is for these reasons, the people that are allowed to remain alive, are there only to reprove the believers, but when they do not reflect the gospel's program that are immediately put down and deceased. That is why certain groups of people that attempt to kill the antichrist, do so as their natural instinct. "No-Man the Son of Perdition", attempts to glorify himself in suicide when the Antichrist is prepared to reign for the 150 days. Right before that are euthanized, weather it is the war on terrorism, the lives don't matter campaigns, or the trophy killings.

When 9/11/2001 happen an a great deal of certain groups of people, were deceased, the authorities simply moved in the trucks and removed the evidences of these events, and claimed a much greater number of people were originally in the twin towers. Figures if you recall, were ultimately disputed, and later clarified. (We have a 10 hour walk on tuesday for public safety, the discovery of Flight 370, the truth will never reach the public, much like the truth that reached the International Space Station will never reach the public, unless you are prepared to do the full law of the "Marriage by Fire", by that time, do not do anything and make your peace with God instead.

(Zebulon is really the concealed Star Wormwood, where as Joseph is the revealed Star Wormwood ........... I've called it a curse only to illustrate transition. The "High Priest" is seen as a curse or as damned, because the "Body of Christ" must be measured, and that requires the resolution of the Curse or the unrevealed Star Wormwood, etc.) (Therefore, Zebulon escaped Heaven, and was Cursed, if so Manasseh is connected to the New Heaven, and has the Greater Curse, etc.) (Cain killed his brother and God spoke to his Blood, which all Blood must become Water to inherit Star Wormwood ............... therefore when God spoke to Abel, because God spoke to his Blood, God had viewed Abel as a curse, etc.)

Daniel1769
August 1st, 2015, 01:19 PM
I say they are the same. The best tip i have for reading Revelation is to cut it in half. Chapters 1-11 tell you the story, then chapters 12-22 basically restate the story in a symbolic way. If you try that, you'll see how much sense it makes. When that was pointed out to me, it made it easier to understand

achduke
August 1st, 2015, 05:03 PM
I say they are the same. The best tip i have for reading Revelation is to cut it in half. Chapters 1-11 tell you the story, then chapters 12-22 basically restate the story in a symbolic way. If you try that, you'll see how much sense it makes. When that was pointed out to me, it made it easier to understand

They are the same. Revelation is told about 3 times using different symbols.

The Woman of Rev 12, The 144,000 and the two witnesses all represent the same group of people.

nonanomanon
August 1st, 2015, 06:51 PM
I say they are the same. The best tip i have for reading Revelation is to cut it in half. Chapters 1-11 tell you the story, then chapters 12-22 basically restate the story in a symbolic way. If you try that, you'll see how much sense it makes. When that was pointed out to me, it made it easier to understand

Revelation 4 - 144,000 under Reuben, SEALED by Melchisedec (Before Abraham the Homosapien, Christ as a High Priest making intercession with God for the Saved)

REVELATION 4:9 And when those beasts give glory and honour and thanks to him that sat on the throne, who liveth for ever and ever,
GENESIS 46:13 And the sons of Issachar; Tola, and Phuvah, and Job, and Shimron.

If Issachar can serve as another name for Melchisedek, then God had to SEAL 144,000 before Satan's judgment program began under the Gospel, Satan as a picture of Job (from the book of Job).

Revelation 7 - 144,000 under Benjamin, SEALED by the "Lamb Slain" (Christ as an Angel, relative to the "3 Days of Darkness")

REVELATION 7:3 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.
NEHEMIAH 7:52 The children of Besai, the children of Meunim, the children of Nephishesim,

If Nepthalim (Rev. 7), is a description of Christ as an Angel, then it follows that Christ is serving as a High Priest. To measure the "Body of Benjamin". The 144,000 that Satan must parallel to complete the judgment program and to bring about the "3 Days of Darkness". The revealing of Star Wormwood, represents the fact that Christ has completed this task as the Lamb Slain (Christ as a High Priest in the form of an Angel, that is what Christ began to do after he was resurrected from the Tomb, and he revealed himself as an Angel). (This would naturally coincide with the Genealogy of Luke 3 in which Jesus represents the conclusion of God moving over the Spiritual Church, so that the switch could take place and Jesus's Church could move over the Spiritual Church instead (Benjamin takes Precedence as the form of measurement, no longer relating to Reuben).

Revelation 14 - 144,000 of Star Wormwood under Levi (Christ acting through the "Two Witnesses", or through the Antichrist, in order to SEAL the 144,000 of Star Wormwood)

REVELATION 14:1 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty [and] four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.
PSALMS 135:20 Bless the LORD, O house of Levi: ye that fear the LORD, bless the LORD.
PSALMS 135:21 Blessed be the LORD out of Zion, which dwelleth at Jerusalem. Praise ye the LORD.

The Antichrist/Joseph is appointed to reign over Judah (the Lion of Judah, and the Root of David, since he represents the "Two Witnesses", Moses and Elias) ............. Judah's Separatist Inheritance* is called Zion/Sion, and for 153 days only Judah will exist, only the "Heart of Judah will Exist" for 153 Days. There are really 3, total divisions to the description of 144,000. As a system of Measurement.

(When God was satisfied in Heaven that 144,000 was obtained under Reuben and the Souls were all saved before the foundation of the Earth, 66 Souls Plus the God Head, making 70 Souls total ................ then God created the Earth, and brought in Satan after the 5 months of Noah's Flood .................... then the 144,000 of Benjamin began to be measured, and when God is satisfied that is when the "3 and 1/2 Days of Darkness" begins, by the time that is finished God is finished measure the 144,000 of Benjamin ................ then the 144,000 of Levi that is of Star Wormwood will be measured for 150 days .................. when that is completed God will reward the New Planets to the People as the Body of Satan's Judgment is completed, and Satan is rewarded in the New Universe.)

(The Paradox of Moses as the Fallen Angel, "Moses and Elias", Elias is another name for God, not another name for Jesus Christ. When Jesus was on the cross, he called to Elias, indicating a reference to the 144,000 of Reuben that was measured before Creation, before Adam and Eve, before the Stars, before the Creation of the Earth. ....................... Moses is portrayed as a fallen angel because he is a representation of Reuben's 144,000, not because he is an alien. ............................. the way God deals with multiverses, he has protrayed his salvation program as a separate universe, so popping out Moses, resembles how God allows fallen angels to pop out-and then into this universe to bare witness. Moses must confirm the covenant, and he has, there isn't much time left on the table, but we've done considerable good, leading to the conclusion, soon.)

northwye
August 1st, 2015, 06:58 PM
The woman of Revelation 12 is the mother of the remnant seen in Revelation 12: 17. Revelation 12: 17 says the dragon goes to make war with the remnant of the woman's seed, meaning she is their mother metaphorically, just as Paul says in Galatians 4: 26 there is a Jerusalem which is above, is free, and is the mother of us all. The literalists reject this and claim there is only one Jerusalem, which is seen in Galatians 4: 25, the literal Jerusalem which now is and is in bondage with her children. Jerusalem is Israel, the Old Covenant in verse 25 and the New Covenant in verse 26, but it is also pointing to Revelation 21: 1-2, the New Jerusalem, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. The 144,000 are starting to build that new Jerusalem

Paul means the Jerusalem which is above and is free is the mother of all the elect of God. There is no other woman in scripture that fits here. Her seed, the remnant, are either the 144,000, or they are acting in a way like the 144,000 at a different point in the end time, but I suspect they might be the exact same 144,000.

If you are seeing the two witnesses of Revelation 11 as being that remnant in Revelation 12: 17 and are also the 144,000 then you have some part of the truth. In Revelation 11: 7-10 the Two Witnesses are spiritually killed by the beast out of the bottomless pit, but the Spirit of God brings them into spiritual life in Revelation 11: 11.

It is true that scripture often brings the same gist meanings to us in different surface wordings and by the use of different metaphors. This is why it is so important to understand and follow Isaiah 28: 10, "precept upon precept...line upon line, here a little and there a little," and not try to keep each text isolated in its own compartment. "For the letter killeth, but the Spirit giveth life." II Corinthians 3: 6

nonanomanon
August 1st, 2015, 07:42 PM
If you are seeing the two witnesses of Revelation 11 as being that remnant in Revelation 12: 17 and are also the 144,000 then you have some part of the truth. In Revelation 11: 7-10 the Two Witnesses are spiritually killed by the beast out of the bottomless pit, but the Spirit of God brings them into spiritual life in Revelation 11: 11.

http://www.markfulton.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/jesus-mask.jpg

(The Humane and Gospel friendly way to put this. God stopped judging the 144,000 of Reuben when Creation began period, End of Story. At the same time God had the 144,000 of Reuben in view for his own purposes, until "Jesus came as a Fallen Angel", that is until Christ was Born. Then it was later revealed that Jesus took what portion of the 144,000 God had in view of Reuben with him, when he rose out of the tomb. .......................... Now Moses the Antichrist is a picture of the 144,000 of Reuben, so God once again places Reuben into view very briefly at the end of time. ................... the judgment of Reuben's 144,000 is completed, but God has Reuben in view for his own purposes once again, perhaps to save some by the diversity of his judgment, God does not simply make angels that simply just by viewing the Holy Spirit or this creation alone, thats an impossibility ........................ the 144,000 of Benjamin took precedence when Christ came as a Fallen Angel, when he was born. Now Jesus Christ made the claim that he was saving people, yes he was saving Separatist Inheritors* for the New Universe, that is 100% true, SATAN MUST GO TO GOD IN HEAVEN, to complete the judgment, what Jesus said was 100% true, and its true today. ................................ When the "Two Witnesses" are slain, when the "3 Days of Darkness" are begun, God is finished with the 144,000 of Benjamin. God must then place the final touches on his judgment program to finish it, for the 153 Days of Star Wormwood, technically that is the 144,000 of Levi, or simply of Star Wormwood, since revelation makes that statement) (comment enclosed in parenthesis).

achduke
August 1st, 2015, 08:08 PM
The woman of Revelation 12 is the mother of the remnant seen in Revelation 12: 17. Revelation 12: 17 says the dragon goes to make war with the remnant of the woman's seed, meaning she is their mother metaphorically, just as Paul says in Galatians 4: 26 there is a Jerusalem which is above, is free, and is the mother of us all. The literalists reject this and claim there is only one Jerusalem, which is seen in Galatians 4: 25, the literal Jerusalem which now is and is in bondage with her children. Jerusalem is Israel, the Old Covenant in verse 25 and the New Covenant in verse 26, but it is also pointing to Revelation 21: 1-2, the New Jerusalem, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. The 144,000 are starting to build that new Jerusalem

Paul means the Jerusalem which is above and is free is the mother of all the elect of God. There is no other woman in scripture that fits here. Her seed, the remnant, are either the 144,000, or they are acting in a way like the 144,000 at a different point in the end time, but I suspect they might be the exact same 144,000.

If you are seeing the two witnesses of Revelation 11 as being that remnant in Revelation 12: 17 and are also the 144,000 then you have some part of the truth. In Revelation 11: 7-10 the Two Witnesses are spiritually killed by the beast out of the bottomless pit, but the Spirit of God brings them into spiritual life in Revelation 11: 11.

It is true that scripture often brings the same gist meanings to us in different surface wordings and by the use of different metaphors. This is why it is so important to understand and follow Isaiah 28: 10, "precept upon precept...line upon line, here a little and there a little," and not try to keep each text isolated in its own compartment. "For the letter killeth, but the Spirit giveth life." II Corinthians 3: 6

They are all sealed and protected for time, times and a half, 42 months or 1260 days respectively. Rev 12:17 does not say remnant of her seed. It says offspring.



Revelation 12:17 And the dragon was enraged with the woman, and he went to make war with the rest of her offspring, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.


The two witnesses are the two kingdoms of Israel, Judah and Joseph. Which comprises the 144,000. 12,000 from every tribe of Judah and Joseph.


Ezekiel 37:16 "As for you, son of man, take a stick for yourself and write on it: 'For Judah and for the children of Israel, his companions.' Then take another stick and write on it, 'For Joseph, the stick of Ephraim, and for all the house of Israel, his companions.'

northwye
August 2nd, 2015, 09:40 AM
The Textus Receptus for Revelation 12: 17 says "και ωργισθη ο δρακων επι τη γυναικι και απηλθεν ποιησαι πολεμον μετα των λοιπων του σπερματος αυτης των τηρουντων τας εντολας του θεου και εχοντων την μαρτυριαν του ιησου χριστου"

The Westcott-Hort Greek says "και ωργισθη ο δρακων επι τη γυναικι και απηλθεν ποιησαι πολεμον μετα των λοιπων του σπερματος αυτης των τηρουντων τας εντολας του θεου και εχοντων την μαρτυριαν ιησου"

For Revelation 12: 17 the two Greek texts agree, but that is not always the case. The Westcott-Hort has Jesus and not Jesus Christ.

λοιπων is Strong's number 3062, loipoy, remaining ones, which remain, remnant, residue, rest. The same Greek word, loipoy is used in Revelation 11: 13, and in Revelation 19: 21, and is translated as remnant in the three early English New Testaments.

In Revelation 11: 5 remnant is from Strong's 3005, leimma, a remainder, remnant.

And in Romans 9: 27 remnant is from Strong's 2640, kataleimma, which Strong's says means "a remainder, i.e, by implication, a few, remnant.

The 1526 Tyndale New Testament for Revelation 12: 17 says "And the dragon was wroth with the woman: and went and made war with the remnant of her seed which keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Iesus Christ."

The 1599 Geneva Bible for Revelation 12: 17 has "Then the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went and made war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ."

The third early English Bible, the King James, has "And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ."

The New Revised Standard has "Then the dragon was angry with the woman, and went off to make war on the rest of her children, those who keep the commandments of God and hold the testimony of Jesus."

The New International says "Then the dragon was enraged at the woman and went off to wage war against the rest of her offspring—those who keep God’s commands and hold fast their testimony about Jesus."

As reported here the New King James Version has for Revelation 12: 17: "And the dragon was enraged with the woman, and he went to make war with the rest of her offspring, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ."

Young's Literal Translation says "and the dragon was angry against the woman, and went away to make war with the rest of her seed, those keeping the commands of God, and having the testimony of Jesus Christ."

All four of the recent English Bible translations shown above translate Strong's number 3062, loipoy, as rest, saying the rest of her seed, or the rest of her offspring.

Here are the Oxford Dictionaries on the meanings of remnant and the rest: Remnant: "Origin: Middle English: contraction of obsolete remenant, from Old French, from remenoir, remanoir 'remain'. "A small remaining quantity of something," "Christian Theology: A small minority of people who will remain faithful to God and so be saved (in allusion to biblical prophecies concerning Israel)." Rest: Origin: Late Middle English: from Old French reste (noun), rester (verb), from Latin restare 'remain," "The remaining part of something," "The remaining people or things; the others," "and (all) the rest (of it)."

Remnant and rest can overlap to some extent in their meanings, in the sense that a remnant is the rest of something which remains, while the larger part does not remain. But translating loipoy as the rest of something tends to lead the meaning away from the Biblical concept of a few people who remain faithful to God, to the doctrines of Christ, while the multitude goes off into false doctrines and practices.

So, there is a change of doctrine, though subtle or ambiguous, from the first three English New Testaments based upon the Textus Receptus, for Revelation 12: 17 on the meaning of loipoy, to the recent English translations, almost all from the Westcott-Hort Greek and not the Textus Receptus.

In his commentary on Revelation 12: 17 John Gill says "and went to make war with the remnant of her seed; which refers to the war the beast, to whom he gave his power, seat, and authority, is said to make with the saints; and which was entered into and carried on by his instigation, of which there is an account in the following chapter: the persons with whom he went to make war are described as "her seed"; the seed of the church, her spiritual offspring, the sons and daughters she brought forth to Christ; between which seed, and Satan and his seed, there always was an enmity: and these are "the remnant" of her seed, a few persons scattered up and down, a remnant according to the election of grace; who were not in bodies, or in church states, regularly formed, as heretofore, but in private families, and some here, and some there; and who were called out to bear a testimony for Christ in corrupt times: and these are further described as such."

Many or most of the churches in 2015 would not agree with what John Gill says above on Revelation 12: 17, that the remnant is called out to bear a testimony for Christ in corrupt times. For the churches there are no corrupt times, no falling away from sound doctrine (II Thessalonians 2: 3-4). The dominant tradition of men is dispensationalism. And if you look up on Google the guys on the committee that translated the New King James you will find that most of them were dispensationalists, with a few who were Calvinists. The dispensationalists see no remnant of the church. And in fact scripture never talks about a remnant of the ekklesia, the church, only a remnant of Israel.

This is all related to the mission of the 144,000 and to it being a remnant in the end times with the testimony of Christ when the multitude is off into false doctrines. The doctrine of the remnant in Revelation 12: 17 was changed in a subtle way from that of the earlier Tyndale, Geneva Bible and King James Version.

RevTestament
August 2nd, 2015, 12:25 PM
In his commentary on Revelation 12: 17 John Gill says "and went to make war with the remnant of her seed; which refers to the war the beast, to whom he gave his power, seat, and authority, is said to make with the saints; and which was entered into and carried on by his instigation, of which there is an account in the following chapter: the persons with whom he went to make war are described as "her seed"; the seed of the church, her spiritual offspring, the sons and daughters she brought forth to Christ; between which seed, and Satan and his seed, there always was an enmity: and these are "the remnant" of her seed, a few persons scattered up and down, a remnant according to the election of grace; who were not in bodies, or in church states, regularly formed, as heretofore, but in private families, and some here, and some there; and who were called out to bear a testimony for Christ in corrupt times: and these are further described as such."

Many or most of the churches in 2015 would not agree with what John Gill says above on Revelation 12: 17, that the remnant is called out to bear a testimony for Christ in corrupt times. For the churches there are no corrupt times, no falling away from sound doctrine (II Thessalonians 2: 3-4). The dominant tradition of men is dispensationalism. And if you look up on Google the guys on the committee that translated the New King James you will find that most of them were dispensationalists, with a few who were Calvinists. The dispensationalists see no remnant of the church. And in fact scripture never talks about a remnant of the ekklesia, the church, only a remnant of Israel.

This is all related to the mission of the 144,000 and to it being a remnant in the end times with the testimony of Christ when the multitude is off into false doctrines. The doctrine of the remnant in Revelation 12: 17 was changed in a subtle way from that of the earlier Tyndale, Geneva Bible and King James Version.

My point is that the mission of the 144,000 of Rev 7 doesn't seem to be very related to "the end times" you speak about which are in the 7th seal and there after. Their work of bringing the law and the prophecies concerning the period are done, and was accomplished in the the first 6 seals since they are all sealed unto God before the 7th seal is opened by Christ.
You seem to disagree with "dispensationalists" but the 7 seals themselves seem to speak of "dispensations." The first being Adam's who received the covenant of the Sabbath, then the Noahic covenant which was clearly a new dispensation, then the Abrahamic, then the Davidic, then Christ's (and John who introduced the token of the new covenant) in the 5th seal, etc.

nonanomanon
August 2nd, 2015, 12:31 PM
Transition of 144,000 for the Purposes of Heavenly Salvation - Coming Full Circle

(The 144,000 is attributed to different Tribes for the reason of Heavenly Salvation ... very simply ... we are given figures of Heavenly Salvation from the Book of Daniel that accounts the Souls going to Heaven as a result of these transitions of the 144,000 ... along with a declaration about Heavenly Salvation of 70 Souls, before the Creation of Earth in Luke 3's Genealogy ............ now we must attempt to tie these together more faithfully)

(Our Previous Conclusion: 6000 is a figure of Heavenly Salvation, which is 2300 + 1290 + 1335 + 1075 (Book of Daniel's Figures + Abraham's Age, and Rev. 17:10). The 66 Souls of Luke 3's Genealogy are already saved, and they are not judged for Salvation, (Isolating, God, Jesus, Enoch, and Moses under Special Circumstances, as being saved before the 66 Souls of the 144,000 of Reuben)

1. 66 Souls Saved for the 144,000 of Reuben (Luke 3)
2. 6000 Souls Saved for the 144,000 of Benjamin (Daniel + Rev.)
3. Satan Saved for the 144,000 of Joseph, which is of Star Wormwood

Invalidation of Daniel Figure of 2300

DANIEL 8:13 Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain [saint] which spake, How long [shall be] the vision [concerning] the daily [sacrifice], and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot?
DANIEL 8:14 And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.
REVELATION 11:9 And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.

1. Saint = 144,000 of Reuben (Heavenly Salvation - Saved)
2. Saint = 144,000 of Benjamin (Three and Half Days, ends the Body of Benjamin) (Heavenly Salvation - Saved)
3. Saint = 144,000 of Joseph (Star Wormwood the Vision/New Temple Revealed) (New Universe - Satan)

Daniel 8:13 is not a Literal figure for the Heavenly Salvation Program under the "144,000 of Benjamin", it is just stating that the, "Three Days and a Half" is the completion of the "144,000 of Benjamin" in its own way. We will Correct the Heavenly Salvation attributed to the "144,000 of Benjamin" based on the figures of Daniel and Revelation, to denote 6000 as a figure of the "Body of Benjamin" ................ "Body of Christ" = 144,000 of Benjamin and 144,000 of Joseph when Revelation is completed:


1290 from the "Body of Benjamin" saved when 144,000 of Reuben was Completed before Time (Daniel 12:11)
1335 from the "Body of Benjamin" saved when the 144,000 of Reuben was placed into the Earth with Moses, when he saw the Burning Bush (a picture of Star Wormwood) (Daniel 12:12-13)
1600 from the "Body of Benjamin" saved when the 144,000 of Reuben was taken from the Earth, when Christ rose from the tomb, and an Angel popped out and returned to heaven (Rev. 14:20)
1775 from the "Body of Benjamin" saved when the 144,000 of Benjamin returns to Heaven, when the "Three and a Half" days are completed (Rev. 11:11)

175 of Abraham's Age, remember Jesus as a High Priest or Melchisedek, spoke to Abraham to announce the completeness of his covenant for Heavenly Salvation. When the "Two Witnesses", are finished their return to heaven, the Gospel completes the fulness of its Heavenly Salvation Program. 666 the Mark of the Beast. 66 Saved recounted in Luke 3's Genealogy, and 6000 recounted through Daniel and Revelation. Or 666, the Gospel is very specific about this, the literal figure is 6066. There is no evidence to support the figure of 600 as referring to the "Body of Benjamin", if we follow the Language of the Gospel.

Daniel 8:13-14 references the 144,000 of Joseph (but accounting all the transitions of the 144,000) so the figure of 2300 cannot apply to the Heavenly Salvation Program, so that is a big mistake. But it is very close to the truth. Because we can still identify the 175 of Abraham. There was a statement made about revelation:


They are all sealed and protected for time, times and a half, 42 months or 1260 days respectively. Rev 12:17 does not say remnant of her seed. It says offspring.

(Moses was placed into the earth he did not die, and he rests in the earth, until he is resurrected as the Antichrist, the Gospel says there was no grave or tomb, for Moses, Deu. 34:6, he did not rest with the saints .......... that is Daniel 12:12-13 description. The only other individual that behaved this way was Jesus Christ, when he was placed into the earth, and like Moses rising as the Antichrist, Jesus arrives at the end of time as the "Lamb Slain" to conclude the 144,000 of Benjamin)

Lets invalidate the figure of 1260, revelation uses!

"About 30 of Reuben", dividing the 144,000 of Reuben from Satan (1290 from Daniel 12:11 - 1260 from Rev. 12:6)
"About 30 of Benjamin", dividing the 144,000 of Benjamin from Satan (Judges 20:31)
"About 30 of Joseph", dividing the 144,000 of Joseph from Judah as a picture of Satan (Luke 3:23)

1. 42 Generation of Matthew, Jesus Came (42 Months of Rev.), Jesus Came as the Messiah to Remove the "144,000 of Reuben"
2. 12,000 Days or "About 30 Years", of Moses Lifespan as a Human Being, God removes the "144,000 of Benjamin"
3. About 3.5 Days Star Wormwood takes all the Tribes, during the 153 Days in which God removes the "144,000 of Joseph" from the Earth, and completes the "Body of Christ" which is "144,000 of Benjamin and 144,000 of Joseph" .............. (God leaves the "Heart of Judah/USA", as the outsider for 153 days, so they can gather to the "Body of Joseph")


"About 30" or the "Month of the Healing of the Nations", this is simply a parable based on the fact that God really hasn't given the Saved, his new angels, the full inheritance of heaven until the curse is resolved, until all of these "12,000" or "About 30" bit sized portions are collectively unified ............. that is until the "Body of Christ" is unified and returns to God, so he can reward both the Saints and Satan at the same time. That is how the Judgment is completed.

The Antichrist reigning over Judah for 150 days is simply the last arm of the process (the uniting of Judah and Joseph according to Rev. 5:5 and Ezekiel 37:16. Right now we have less then 25 days until the 144,000 of Benjamin begins to be completed. (The Antichrist intends to save 100% of the people some resurrected, if he gets everything he wants from God, and all living ............. were just acting out the conclusion of the gospel faithfully, this completes the conviction for those not apart of the covenant ............. so the 153 days are the finishing touch ............. we have another 10 hour walk on Tuesday to keep these people tamed until they are removed as a public threat).

northwye
August 2nd, 2015, 03:38 PM
"But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ. 15. But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart. 16. Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away." II Corinthians 3: 14-16

Translating loipoy (remaining ones, which remain, remnant, residue, rest) as the dragon "went to make war with the rest of her seed, who keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ" in a subtle way puts a vail over the understanding of this verse.

Remember that the dragon-serpent is, at this time, casting out of his mouth a flood. This may be too hard for the literalists to understand, but it is saying the same thing as is said in Matthew 24: 5, 11, 24 and in II Peter 2: 1-3 on the false prophets having to come to their full.

The dragon going to make war with the rest of the woman's seed implies that he is going against some part of her seed. If the woman has more than one group of seeds, then which group would the dragon more likely go after? It would be that part which best has the testimony of Jesus Christ, who are the "rest of her seed." This is the remnant, despite the sleight of hand of the modern Bible version translators in using the word "rest" instead of "remnant."

The new Bible version translators not only put a vail over their own understanding of Revelation 12: 17, but also over the understanding of their readers who rely upon these new Bible versions rather than the Tyndale, Geneva and King James Bibles.

RevTestament
August 2nd, 2015, 05:20 PM
Remember that the dragon-serpent is, at this time, casting out of his mouth a flood. This may be too hard for the literalists to understand, but it is saying the same thing as is said in Matthew 24: 5, 11, 24 and in II Peter 2: 1-3 on the false prophets having to come to their full.

The dragon going to make war with the rest of the woman's seed implies that he is going against some part of her seed. If the woman has more than one group of seeds, then which group would the dragon more likely go after? It would be that part which best has the testimony of Jesus Christ, who are the "rest of her seed." This is the remnant, despite the sleight of hand of the modern Bible version translators in using the word "rest" instead of "remnant."
Just to be clear, I am not saying that none of the 144,000 of Rev 7 can be the remnant you speak of. I actually agree that at least some of the 144,000 are of this remnant when the church is brought forth from the wilderness. I believe that probably most, however lived before the remnant of the church when it was restored from apostasy in Rev 12, and even before the 6th seal. So it is just a description of the last of the 144,000 being sealed in the 6th seal.


The new Bible version translators not only put a vail over their own understanding of Revelation 12: 17, but also over the understanding of their readers who rely upon these new Bible versions rather than the Tyndale, Geneva and King James Bibles.
No matter which version is relied upon, I still read Rev 7 & Rev 12 basically the same way. The 2 witnesses of Rev 11 are of the 144,000 of Rev 14, and not the 144,000 of Rev 7. And yes, they are also of the remnant you speak of. :)

nonanomanon
August 2nd, 2015, 09:04 PM
"But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ. 15. But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart. 16. Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away." II Corinthians 3: 14-16

(Daniel 12:11 says an Angels takes 1290 ........ Acts 7:8 says an Angel takes 1290 (Jacob the Nineth, like the Twelve) ........ Daniel 12:12 says an Angels takes 1335 ......... Acts 20:7-9 says an Angel takes 1335 (using like figures and paralleling the language) .......... Rev. 14:9-10 says an Angel takes 1600 ......... Acts 18:10-11 says also this 1600 are taken to God ......... Hebrews 7:1 says the 1775 of Abraham (his age 175 yrs) are taken to God ............ Acts 3:24-25 the years of Abraham are called the Resurrection of Saul) (6000 Total is the "144,000 of Benjamin")

II CORINTHIANS 3:14 But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which [vail] is done away in Christ.
II CORINTHIANS 3:15 But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart.

1. Blinded = 144,000 of Reuben were SEALED by Melchisedek = Luke 22:64 Jesus is revealed as Melchisedek
2. Vail Established = 144,000 of Reuben levied against the 144,000 of Benjamin when Moses was given the 10 Commandants = Exodus 2:12 Moses Killed a Man
3. Vail Abolished = 144,000 of Reuben was Removed with Christ's resurrection = Matthew 28:2 Jesus reverses the placement of Reuben by restoring the Angel, Moses had killed.
4. Mark of the Beast = 144,000 of Benjamin that is taken when "Moses and Elias" the "Two Witnesses" are slain to begin the "3 Days of Darkness" (SEALED by the Lamb Slain, which is to complete the "Body of Benjamin") (When God resurrects Moses for 12,000 days this is like a restoration of the 144,000 of Reuben ... in order to complete the 144,000 of Benjamin ... once Reuben and Benjamin are completed then the 144,000 of Joseph is Revealed as Star Wormwood .... God has the final task of uniting the "Body of Benjamin to the Body of Joseph", then God takes Satan a picture of Joseph or Star Wormwood, and blesses him in the New Universe).

ACTS 27:27 But when the fourteenth night was come, as we were driven up and down in Adria, about midnight the shipmen deemed that they drew near to some country;
ACTS 27:28 And sounded, and found [it] twenty fathoms: and when they had gone a little further, they sounded again, and found [it] fifteen fathoms.
ACTS 27:29 Then fearing lest we should have fallen upon rocks, they cast four anchors out of the stern, and wished for the day.

We need to view this simply as a parable, very briefly we will state the following:

1. 144,000 of Reuben
2. 144,000 of Benjamin
3. 144,000 of Joseph (Revealed as the "Temple Stones" for 12 Hours or Half a Day)
4. 200,000,000 Attributed to Judah for 153 Days (Revealed as the Final Trumpet when the Remnant of Judah must be joined to Joseph)

200,000,000 is simply a dimension relating to Star Wormwood, that is the revealed version of Joseph as the Blessing. ............ 200,000,000 can be treated as a literal figure of salvation with the Holy Spirit under Naphtali as a Separatist Inheritor* of a New Planet of their own (the souls that have fell short like Samuel/Saul's Parable of the Ghost being resurrected, or the "Familiar Spirit/Ishmael") .................. 144,000 is not a Literal Figure, it represents a unifying of the Body of Christ, 12000 for Each Tribe or 12 sets of "about 30 days".

The New Testament says at least once maybe more "about 3 Thousand were saved", in an instant, true, but remember the Gospel views Star Wormwood like the "Body of Benjamin", on several accounts.

(Acts 15:1 says Moses judges Judah after his is circumcised, that is after he is given a new resurrected body ........ similarly only the "Heart of Judah" will remain the USA left living out of the whole world. We don't know who the Antichrist is but the people of a lesser mind which hold to lesser degrees for themselves, would likely view this as a statement of castration, to somehow justify the gospel ............ the rest of 9/11/2001 is history, and the stench of death continues to the lives don't matter campaigns, that happen globally)

Old man
October 15th, 2015, 05:25 PM
No, it cannot include gentiles, it says expressly that its 12,000 from each of the 12 tribes of Israel.


Revelation 7:4
4 And I heard the number of those who were sealed. One hundred and forty-four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel were sealed:

5 of the tribe of Judah twelve thousand were sealed;

of the tribe of Reuben twelve thousand were 1sealed;

of the tribe of Gad twelve thousand were sealed;

6 of the tribe of Asher twelve thousand were sealed;

of the tribe of Naphtali twelve thousand were sealed;

of the tribe of Manasseh twelve thousand were sealed;

7 of the tribe of Simeon twelve thousand were sealed;

of the tribe of Levi twelve thousand were sealed;

of the tribe of Issachar twelve thousand were sealed;

8 of the tribe of Zebulun twelve thousand were sealed;

of the tribe of Joseph twelve thousand were sealed;

of the tribe of Benjamin twelve thousand were sealed.

Pretty clear what it says there.

Don't leave out those of verse 9, the great multitude of all nations, kindreds, and people and tongues (Gentiles) who stand along with the 12 tribes of Israel who physically survived the tribulation. They will serve God day and night in His temple vs.15. Also they have 'washed' their robes (repented or their sins), the 144K Saints of Rev.14 are given white robes at their resurrection.

The 144K of Rev.14 will Rule as Kings and Priests with Christ not serve day and night in His temple.

jamie
October 15th, 2015, 05:29 PM
Joseph was one of Jacob's biological twelve sons, Manasseh wasn't.

The list left out Dan.

steko
October 15th, 2015, 06:11 PM
A question is what is the mission or purpose of the 144,000? It is true that some knowledge on this question is implied in Revelation 14: 1-5 and in Revelation 7: 1-8. Revelation 7: 3 says "...Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees. till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads."

The same Greek word, sphragizo, sealed, is used in II Corinthians 21-22, "Now he which stablisheth us with you in Christ, and hath anointed us, is God;
22. Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts."

Sphragizo is also used in Ephesians 1: 22, "In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise."

"And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption." Ephesians 4: 30

The 144,000 are sealed with the Holy Spirit, and with an anointing, since I Corinthians 1: 21-22 says those sealed with the Holy Spirit also were anointed by Christ. But sealed and anointed for what mission?

In metaphoric language Revelation 14: 1 says the 144,000 stand with Christ, having the Father's name on their foreheads, on mount Zion. They stand in a high place spiritually, meaning they have been raised up high to stand with Jesus Christ. They sing a new song which no one but the 144,000 can learn - which is also metaphoric for a being in a higher spiritual state in their anointing and sealing. They are not defiled with woman, again in metaphoric language, and this fits with their not having guile, meaning they are not deceptive in a world filled with deception. They follow the Lamb whithersoever he leads, and are the firstfruits to God and Christ.

They are a remnant, but this language in Revelation 14 raises them up above other remnants in scripture, such as in Romans 11: 5, the remnant in which God began again his plan of redemption as the New Covenant. However, the Apostles of Christ, who were among that remnant, had a greater anointing directly from Christ than did most of the others There is also the remnant in Revelation 12: 17, who, at the time the serpent-dragon is casting out a flood of lies out of his mouth and is making war with this remnant, are said to have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

But you have to go outside of the Book of Revelation to find out what the mission of the 144,000 is.

"And they that understand among the people shall instruct many: yet they shall fall by the sword, and by flame, by captivity, and by spoil, many days. 34. Now when they shall fall, they shall be holpen with a little help: but many shall cleave to them with flatteries. 35. And some of them of understanding shall fall, to try them, and to purge, and to make them white, even to the time of the end: because it is yet for a time appointed."................"And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever." Daniel 11: 33-35 and Daniel 12: 3.

The dispensationalists will insist that all the 144,000 are all male Jews and will say that Daniel 11: 33-35 is not about the 144,000 because the 144,000 are not mentioned there. And Daniel 11: 33-35 could be applied to the work of the Apostles of Christ in the First Century, a fulfillment which does not necessarily mean it does not apply to the 144,000.

The same word sphragizo is used in Rev 20 to describe the sealing of Satan, therefore though the seal is certainly secure, sphragizo must be understood in context and not narrowly by simply the definition of the word:

Rev 20:3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

Old man
October 16th, 2015, 07:16 PM
Joseph was one of Jacob's biological twelve sons, Manasseh wasn't.

The list left out Dan.

Why Dan is not mentioned as being among the 12 tribes to survive the tribulation is not known but you will notice that Dan is to be in the Ezk.37 (the whole house of Israel) resurrection and is given his portion of land in Ezk.48

Bright Raven
October 16th, 2015, 08:02 PM
Why would they be different?

steko
October 16th, 2015, 08:10 PM
Why would they be different?

Yeah! They wouldn't!

jamie
October 16th, 2015, 09:30 PM
Why Dan is not mentioned as being among the 12 tribes to survive the tribulation is not known but you will notice that Dan is to be in the Ezk.37 (the whole house of Israel) resurrection and is given his portion of land in Ezk.48


Yes, I know. Thanks for your response.

OCTOBER23
October 16th, 2015, 09:38 PM
This is an interesting subject

iouae
October 16th, 2015, 10:56 PM
My belief is this, that all of Rev is sequential, a chronological order of end-time events.
Thus I see the 144000 as removed/raptured/sealed and taken to heaven at the 6th seal (Rev 7) and they come back to earth at the 7th trumpet (Rev 14).

The 144000 and in fact all saints are not mentioned between Rev 7 and Rev 14 because they are not on earth, therefore the 6 trumpet plagues do not affect them, which occur between Rev 7 and 14.

Ask Mr. Religion
October 17th, 2015, 12:01 AM
I'm convinced the figurative 144,000 in Rev 7:4 and Rev. 14:1 are not a remnant of ethnic Jews at the end of the age or a remnant of the church. They are rather the figurative totality of the vast number of God’s people throughout the ages, viewed as true Israelites.

The quantity 144,000 results from the square of 12 multiplied by 1,000, or the multiple of the squares of 10 and 12 multiplied by 10. The use of 12 (and perhaps 10) elevates the figurative idea of completeness. The square of 12 may be simply the number of the tribes of Israel multiplied by itself or, even more likely, the twelve tribes multiplied by the twelve apostles. Rev 21 seems to confirm, wherein the names of the 12 tribes and of the 12 apostles form part of the figurative structure of the heavenly city of God, “the new Jerusalem,” representing the whole people of God dwelling in the midst of God and the Lamb.


AMR

PneumaPsucheSoma
October 17th, 2015, 12:34 AM
I'm convinced the figurative 144,000 in Rev 7:4 and Rev. 14:1 are not a remnant of ethnic Jews at the end of the age or a remnant of the church. They are rather the figurative totality of the vast number of God’s people throughout the ages, viewed as true Israelites.

The quantity 144,000 results from the square of 12 multiplied by 1,000, or the multiple of the squares of 10 and 12 multiplied by 10. The use of 12 (and perhaps 10) elevates the figurative idea of completeness. The square of 12 may be simply the number of the tribes of Israel multiplied by itself or, even more likely, the twelve tribes multiplied by the twelve apostles. Rev 21 seems to confirm, wherein the names of the 12 tribes and of the 12 apostles form part of the figurative structure of the heavenly city of God, “the new Jerusalem,” representing the whole people of God dwelling in the midst of God and the Lamb.


AMR


Indeed, but you'll likely never convince the (alleged) "literalist" Dispensationalists and other Futurists of this truth. They consider only the tangible to be literal, and have an odd affinity for numerology, etc.