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Jacob
July 23rd, 2015, 04:27 PM
What is God's Law?

Jacob
July 23rd, 2015, 08:40 PM
What is God's Law? How do we know what God's Law is?

Robert Pate
July 24th, 2015, 07:54 AM
What is God's Law? How do we know what God's Law is?

God's law is an extension of himself. It is his nature and his character.

Jesus is Gods law incarnate in human flesh, Romans 3:21.

One might say that Jesus is the epitome of Gods Law.

Jacob
July 24th, 2015, 11:26 AM
God's law is an extension of himself. It is his nature and his character.

Jesus is Gods law incarnate in human flesh, Romans 3:21.

One might say that Jesus is the epitome of Gods Law.I believe the Law is good.

Romans 7:12 NASB, Romans 7:16 NASB - 12 So then, the Law is holy, and the commandment is holy and righteous and good. 16 But if I do the very thing I do not want to do, I agree with the Law, confessing that the Law is good.

1 Timothy 1:8 NASB - 8 But we know that the Law is good, if one uses it lawfully,

Robert Pate
July 24th, 2015, 12:14 PM
I believe the Law is good.

Romans 7:12 NASB, Romans 7:16 NASB - 12 So then, the Law is holy, and the commandment is holy and righteous and good. 16 But if I do the very thing I do not want to do, I agree with the Law, confessing that the Law is good.

1 Timothy 1:8 NASB - 8 But we know that the Law is good, if one uses it lawfully,


The law is good because it tells us what God is like.

The law is good because it keeps us from sin.

The law is not good if you try to use it to justify yourself or to try to merit salvation by the law.

Jacob
July 24th, 2015, 12:21 PM
The law is good because it tells us what God is like.

The law is good because it keeps us from sin.

The law is not good if you try to use it to justify yourself or to try to merit salvation by the law.I think I understand the sense in which you say the law is good because it keeps us from sin.

Sin is transgression of the law, so the law defines what sin is. Would it be sin without knowing what the law is? Yes.

Knowing what is wrong helps us to make right decisions. But the law also tells us what is right. If we do what is right, we are kept from sin. If we do not do what is wrong, we are kept from sin.

Should we and do we obey the Law as Christians?

Robert Pate
July 24th, 2015, 12:26 PM
I think I understand the sense in which you say the law is good because it keeps us from sin.

Sin is transgression of the law, so the law defines what sin is. Would it be sin without knowing what the law is? Yes.

Knowing what is wrong helps us to make right decisions. But the law also tells us what is right. If we do what is right, we are kept from sin. If we do not do what is wrong, we are kept from sin.

Should we and do we obey the Law as Christians?

Paul encourages us to live by Spirit and not by Law.

It appears that the law made Paul want to sin, Romans 7:7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12.

Jacob
July 24th, 2015, 12:28 PM
Paul encourages us to live by Spirit and not by Law.

It appears that the law made Paul want to sin, Romans 7:8, 9, 10, 11, 12.I think you misunderstand.

Romans 7:13 NASB - 13 Therefore did that which is good become a cause of death for me? May it never be! Rather it was sin, in order that it might be shown to be sin by effecting my death through that which is good, so that through the commandment sin would become utterly sinful.

Robert Pate
July 24th, 2015, 12:33 PM
I think you misunderstand.

Romans 7:13 NASB - 13 Therefore did that which is good become a cause of death for me? May it never be! Rather it was sin, in order that it might be shown to be sin by effecting my death through that which is good, so that through the commandment sin would become utterly sinful.


Adam and Eve were just doing fine in the garden until God said, "Thou shall not eat of the tree in the midst of the garden".

God introduced the law.

The minute that we are told not to do something, we want to do it.

Jacob
July 24th, 2015, 12:36 PM
Adam and Eve were just doing fine in the garden until God said, "Thou shall not eat of the tree in the midst of the garden".

God introduced the law.

The minute that we are told not to do something, we want to do it.I have no problem with God giving us instruction, by command or the Law. If you want to sin against God when He gives you instruction, it is not that anything is wrong with the instruction He has given you. You ought to obey.

In fact, I would say that apart from the sin that is in you you are able to obey God because He has made you able to obey Him. That is, it is possible to obey God, and furthermore He wouldn't ask you to do anything that He does not want you to do or that you are not able to do.

Robert Pate
July 24th, 2015, 12:46 PM
I have no problem with God giving us instruction, by command or the Law. If you want to sin against God when He gives you instruction, it is not that anything is wrong with the instruction He has given you. You ought to obey.

In fact, I would say that apart from the sin that is in you you are able to obey God because He has made you able to obey Him. That is, it is possible to obey God, and furthermore He wouldn't ask you to do anything that He does not want you to do or that you are not able to do.

Your dreaming. No one can obey or keep the law. Jesus taught the law to show you that you don't measure up to God's standards.

Paul said, "There is none righteous, no, not one, Romans 3:10.

Read Matthew 5:38, 39, 40, 41, 42, 43, 44, 45, 46, 47, 48.

And then tell me that you do all of that and I will show you a hypocrite.

Hawkins
July 24th, 2015, 12:47 PM
God is incompatible with sin. He however would like to build an eternity to live with humans with freewill. Law is designed to reflect the incompatibility for those with freewill to obey in order to live with God in such an eternity.

Judgment is to qualify by Law who shall enter Heaven to live with God. Somehow Adam broke it and was put outside God's realm. Humans ever since are no longer inside God's realm. Instead we are in a realm where Satan is said to be the god of this world. Satan has the ability to deceive the world. When put in such a realm, no humans can keep this set of Law in full. In front of this absolute set of Law, no one is righteous, everyone is dead without exception.

In an absolute sense, no humans after Adam can ever pass the Judgment of God's Law to enter the gate of Heaven.

God however provides a solution for His Elect to be legitimately brought to Heaven. The solution is Jesus Christ. With Jesus Christ's once and for all sacrifice, it makes possible for God to grant a covenant to humans for them to be savable at all.

A covenant basically says, "since you humans cannot keep God's Law in full, you are give a chosen set of Law (such as Mosaic Law in a covenant granted to the Jews) which you can keep to a standard God specifies such that you will be save by God's Grace through Jesus Christ."

However as time goes by, even this chosen set of Law will put everyone to death, not even the righteous (people of God's Elect) can keep this chosen set of Law. Then God will upgrade the covenant with a newer one which will suppress the effect of Law while increasing the Grace in order for the righteous to be separated from the wicked.

This is done through successive covenants till the His Grace has been increased to 100%. It becomes the last and final and permanent covenant which is called the New Covenant (brought us by Jesus Himself). The chosen set of Law in a covenant disappeared, all we have is God's Grace through Jesus Christ. We only need faith in Christ/God to be saved.

Jacob
July 24th, 2015, 12:52 PM
Galatians 2:21 NASB - 21 "I do not nullify the grace of God, for if righteousness comes through the Law, then Christ died needlessly."

Robert Pate
July 24th, 2015, 12:53 PM
God is incompatible with sin. He however would like to build an eternity to live with humans with freewill. Law is designed to reflect the incompatibility for those with freewill to obey in order to live with God in such an eternity.

Judgment is to qualify by Law who shall enter Heaven to live with God. Somehow Adam broke it and was put outside God's realm. Humans ever since are no longer inside God's realm. Instead we are in a realm where Satan is said to be the god of this world. Satan has the ability to deceive the world. When put in such a realm, no humans can keep this set of Law in full. In front of this absolute set of Law, no one is righteous, everyone is dead without exception.

In an absolute sense, no humans after Adam can ever pass the Judgment of God's Law to enter the gate of Heaven.

God however provides a solution for His Elect to be legitimately brought to Heaven. The solution is Jesus Christ. With Jesus Christ's once and for all sacrifice, it makes possible for God to grant a covenant to humans for them to be savable at all.

A covenant basically says, "since you humans cannot keep God's Law in full, you are give a chosen set of Law (such as Mosaic Law in a covenant granted to the Jews) which you can keep to a standard God specifies such that you will be save by God's Grace through Jesus Christ."

However as time goes by, even this chosen set of Law will put everyone to death, not even the righteous (people of God's Elect) can keep this chosen set of Law. Then God will upgrade the covenant with a newer one which will suppress the effect of Law while increasing the Grace in order for the righteous to be separated from the wicked.

This is done through successive covenants till the His Grace has been increased to 100%. It becomes the last and final and permanent covenant which is called the New Covenant (brought us by Jesus Himself). The chosen set of Law in a covenant disappeared, all we have is God's Grace through Jesus Christ. We only need faith in Christ/God to be saved.

Amen to that!

If anyone goes to heaven it will be on the merits of Jesus who fulfilled the law for us.

Jacob
July 24th, 2015, 12:53 PM
Your dreaming. No one can obey or keep the law. Jesus taught the law to show you that you don't measure up to God's standards.

Paul said, "There is none righteous, no, not one, Romans 3:10.

Read Matthew 5:38, 39, 40, 41, 42, 43, 44, 45, 46, 47, 48.

And then tell me that you do all of that and I will show you a hypocrite.Here is that a person can actually obey God's commands?

Deuteronomy 30:11 NASB - 11 "For this commandment which I command you today is not too difficult for you, nor is it out of reach.

1 John 5:3 NASB - 3 For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments; and His commandments are not burdensome.

Jacob
July 24th, 2015, 12:54 PM
Amen to that!

If anyone goes to heaven it will be on the merits of Jesus who fulfilled the law for us.Romans 8:1-4 NASB - 1 Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death. 3 For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh, 4 so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.

Jacob
July 24th, 2015, 12:55 PM
God is incompatible with sin. He however would like to build an eternity to live with humans with freewill. Law is designed to reflect the incompatibility for those with freewill to obey in order to live with God in such an eternity.

Judgment is to qualify by Law who shall enter Heaven to live with God. Somehow Adam broke it and was put outside God's realm. Humans ever since are no longer inside God's realm. Instead we are in a realm where Satan is said to be the god of this world. Satan has the ability to deceive the world. When put in such a realm, no humans can keep this set of Law in full. In front of this absolute set of Law, no one is righteous, everyone is dead without exception.

In an absolute sense, no humans after Adam can ever pass the Judgment of God's Law to enter the gate of Heaven.

God however provides a solution for His Elect to be legitimately brought to Heaven. The solution is Jesus Christ. With Jesus Christ's once and for all sacrifice, it makes possible for God to grant a covenant to humans for them to be savable at all.

A covenant basically says, "since you humans cannot keep God's Law in full, you are give a chosen set of Law (such as Mosaic Law in a covenant granted to the Jews) which you can keep to a standard God specifies such that you will be save by God's Grace through Jesus Christ."

However as time goes by, even this chosen set of Law will put everyone to death, not even the righteous (people of God's Elect) can keep this chosen set of Law. Then God will upgrade the covenant with a newer one which will suppress the effect of Law while increasing the Grace in order for the righteous to be separated from the wicked.

This is done through successive covenants till the His Grace has been increased to 100%. It becomes the last and final and permanent covenant which is called the New Covenant (brought us by Jesus Himself). The chosen set of Law in a covenant disappeared, all we have is God's Grace through Jesus Christ. We only need faith in Christ/God to be saved.Either a person is saved by God's grace or they are not.

Robert Pate
July 24th, 2015, 12:55 PM
Galatians 2:21 NASB - 21 "I do not nullify the grace of God, for if righteousness comes through the Law, then Christ died needlessly."

Right! The law does not make us righteous. The law shows us that we are sinners, Romans 3:20.

Jacob
July 24th, 2015, 12:56 PM
Right! The law does not make us righteous. The law shows us that we are sinners, Romans 3:20.But this does not make it impossible to obey God. God would not ask us to do anything that we cannot do.

Robert Pate
July 24th, 2015, 01:01 PM
But this does not make it impossible to obey God. God would not ask us to do anything that we cannot do.

I am afraid that you do not understand what the law is.

God never intended for his people to live according to rules or laws. Paul said, "The Just Shall Live by Faith" Romans 1:17.

Jacob
July 24th, 2015, 01:04 PM
I am afraid that you do not understand what the law is.

God never intended for his people to live according to rules or laws. Paul said, "The Just Shall Live by Faith" Romans 1:17.The only way to actually or truly obey God is by faith.

Robert Pate
July 24th, 2015, 03:49 PM
The only way to actually or truly obey God is by faith.


As long as we are in these Adamic bodies we are sinners.

It is not possible to obey God.

Jacob
July 24th, 2015, 03:51 PM
As long as we are in these Adamic bodies we are sinners.

It is not possible to obey God.It is not possible for an unbeliever or not possible for a believer?

There are those who are of faith and those who are not. Those who are of true faith do obey God.

Of course it is possible to obey God.

Interplanner
July 24th, 2015, 03:58 PM
I am afraid that you do not understand what the law is.

God never intended for his people to live according to rules or laws. Paul said, "The Just Shall Live by Faith" Romans 1:17.


Robert,
that should be rendered "Those who are justified by faith will live." It has nothing about it that demeans law. In fact, we won't know what we have to be justified from without law.

There is an internal spontaneous motivation through the Spirit mentioned in Gal 5: "About these things you don't make laws" (about the fruit of the Spirit), but love is a law and love is a fruit of the Spirit. You're OK if that's what you mean.

Jacob
July 24th, 2015, 04:01 PM
Robert,
that should be rendered "Those who are justified by faith will live." It has nothing about it that demeans law. In fact, we won't know what we have to be justified from without law.

There is an internal spontaneous motivation through the Spirit mentioned in Gal 5: "About these things you don't make laws" (about the fruit of the Spirit), but love is a law and love is a fruit of the Spirit. You're OK if that's what you mean.
The fruit of the Spirit is more than just love.

Robert Pate
July 24th, 2015, 04:01 PM
It is not possible for an unbeliever or not possible for a believer?

There are those who are of faith and those who are not. Those who are of true faith do obey God.

Of course it is possible to obey God.

HOGWASH!

You should know better.

You were born a sinner and you will die a sinner. Why do you think that Paul refered to himself as "The Chief of Sinners?" 1 Timothy 1:15.

Jacob
July 24th, 2015, 04:02 PM
HOGWASH!

You should know better.

You were born a sinner and you will die a sinner. Why do you think that Paul refered to himself as "The Chief of Sinners?" 1 Timothy 1:15.
Are saints (these are believers who are alive) sinners or different from sinners?

In that Paul sinned did not mean he had to continue in sin.

Robert Pate
July 24th, 2015, 04:06 PM
Robert,
that should be rendered "Those who are justified by faith will live." It has nothing about it that demeans law. In fact, we won't know what we have to be justified from without law.

There is an internal spontaneous motivation through the Spirit mentioned in Gal 5: "About these things you don't make laws" (about the fruit of the Spirit), but love is a law and love is a fruit of the Spirit. You're OK if that's what you mean.

Your screwing with the scripture. It plainly says, "The Just shall live by faith" meaning not by laws rules or religion.

Here is who the law is for, 1 Timothy 1:8, 9, 10.

jamie
July 24th, 2015, 04:10 PM
As long as we are in these Adamic bodies we are sinners.

It is not possible to obey God.



But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. (Romans 8:9 NKJV)

Robert Pate
July 24th, 2015, 04:11 PM
Are saints (these are believers who are alive) sinners or different from sinners?

In that Paul sinned did not mean he had to continue in sin.


There are two kinds of sinners, saved sinners and lost sinners.

Paul struggled with sin, Romans 7:13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22.

All who are indwelt with the Holy Spirit are aware of the fact that they are sinners.

Robert Pate
July 24th, 2015, 04:13 PM
But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. (Romans 8:9 NKJV)

That scripture does not say that you are now as righteous as Christ.

Jacob
July 24th, 2015, 04:13 PM
There are two kinds of sinners, saved sinners and lost sinners.

Paul struggled with sin, Romans 7:13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22.

All who are indwelt with the Holy Spirit are aware of the fact that they are sinners.Paul was a sinner. But that does not mean that once he believed on Jesus as the Christ he lived in sin.

jamie
July 24th, 2015, 04:13 PM
All who are indwelt with the Holy Spirit are aware of the fact that they are sinners.



There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. (Romans 8:1 NKJV)

Robert Pate
July 24th, 2015, 04:16 PM
There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. (Romans 8:1 NKJV)

That scripture does not say that you are now as righteous as Christ.

Robert Pate
July 24th, 2015, 04:19 PM
Paul was a sinner. But that does not mean that once he believed on Jesus as the Christ he lived in sin.

Paul did not practice sin. You don't have to practice sin to be a sinner.

The law is spiritual. It searchs the desires and the intent of the heart, Hebrews 4:12.

Are all of your thoughts pure and without sin?

Jacob
July 24th, 2015, 04:20 PM
Paul did not practice sin. You don't have to practice sin to be a sinner.

The law is spiritual. It searchs the desires and the intent of the heart, Hebrews 4:12.

Are all of your thoughts pure and without sin?In what sense are you saying he was the chief of sinners when he was no longer a sinner?

Paul did not live in sin or walk in sin. Neither do or should you or I.

Robert Pate
July 24th, 2015, 04:28 PM
In what sense are you saying he was the chief of sinners when he was no longer a sinner?

Paul did not live in sin or walk in sin. Neither do or should you or I.


Paul lived a righteous life, but he still saw himself as a sinner.

I did not say that Paul was a sinner, Paul said that he was a sinner.

In the light of God's holiness Paul saw himself as a sinner.

Jacob
July 24th, 2015, 04:30 PM
Paul lived a righteous life, but he still saw himself as a sinner.

I did not say that Paul was a sinner, Paul said that he was a sinner.

In the light of God's holiness Paul saw himself as a sinner.God completely changed Paul, even more than that he had observed God's Law, in that he was formerly a persecutor of the church.

Philippians 3:17-21 NASB - 17 Brethren, join in following my example, and observe those who walk according to the pattern you have in us. 18 For many walk, of whom I often told you, and now tell you even weeping, that they are enemies of the cross of Christ, 19 whose end is destruction, whose god is their appetite, and whose glory is in their shame, who set their minds on earthly things. 20 For our citizenship is in heaven, from which also we eagerly wait for a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ; 21 who will transform the body of our humble state into conformity with the body of His glory, by the exertion of the power that He has even to subject all things to Himself.

Robert Pate
July 24th, 2015, 04:41 PM
God completely changed Paul, even more than that he had observed God's Law, in that he was formerly a persecutor of the church.

Philippians 3:17-21 NASB - 17 Brethren, join in following my example, and observe those who walk according to the pattern you have in us. 18 For many walk, of whom I often told you, and now tell you even weeping, that they are enemies of the cross of Christ, 19 whose end is destruction, whose god is their appetite, and whose glory is in their shame, who set their minds on earthly things. 20 For our citizenship is in heaven, from which also we eagerly wait for a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ; 21 who will transform the body of our humble state into conformity with the body of His glory, by the exertion of the power that He has even to subject all things to Himself.


We have been changed, but not completely. We only have the first fruits or the down payment of the Spirit, Romans 8:23.

We are waiting for Christ to return so that this corruption can put on incorruption. 1 Corinthians 15:52, 53, 54.

Jacob
July 24th, 2015, 04:43 PM
We have been changed, but not completely. We only have the first fruits or the down payment of the Spirit, Romans 8:23.

We are waiting for Christ to return so that this corruption can put on incorruption. 1 Corinthians 15:52, 53, 54.The pattern in Paul spoken of has nothing to do with sin.

Robert Pate
July 24th, 2015, 04:51 PM
The pattern in Paul spoken of has nothing to do with sin.

What are you talking about?

Paul demonstrates in Romans 7 that he struggles with sin. And then in 1 Timothy 1:15 he referes to himself as the "Chief of Sinners" not just a sinner, but the "Chief of Sinners".

And now in 1 Corinthians 15:52, 53, 54. He tells us that we are corrupt.

Jacob
July 24th, 2015, 04:54 PM
What is the Law?
What is the requirement of the Law?

Romans 8:4 NASB - 4 so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.

Jacob
July 24th, 2015, 04:55 PM
What are you talking about?

Paul demonstrates in Romans 7 that he struggles with sin. And then in 1 Timothy 1:15 he referes to himself as the "Chief of Sinners" not just a sinner but the "Chief of Sinners".

And now in 1 Corinthians 15:52, 53, 54. He tells us that we are corrupt.
He explains that there was a struggle. That does not mean that as a believer he lived in sin or sinned.

Robert Pate
July 24th, 2015, 05:05 PM
What is the Law?
What is the requirement of the Law?

Romans 8:4 NASB - 4 so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.


This scripture means that all who are "In Christ" are righteous in God's eyes. In Jesus Christ we have met all of the requirements of the law. Jesus was the end and the fulfillment of the law.

But we are not "In Christ" yet. Physically we are still here on the earth in our Adamic bodies that are prone to sin.

Robert Pate
July 24th, 2015, 05:09 PM
He explains that there was a struggle. That does not mean that as a believer he lived in sin or sinned.

He must have sinned or he would not have refered to himself as "The Chief of Sinners".

Maybe he got mad at a Pharisee.

Jacob
July 24th, 2015, 05:25 PM
This scripture means that all who are "In Christ" are righteous in God's eyes. In Jesus Christ we have met all of the requirements of the law. Jesus was the end and the fulfillment of the law.

But we are not "In Christ" yet. Physically we are still here on the earth in our Adamic bodies that are prone to sin.

If you are not in Christ before you die you are not saved.

Jacob
July 24th, 2015, 05:26 PM
He must have sinned or he would not have refered to himself as "The Chief of Sinners".

Maybe he got mad at a Pharisee.

Speculating will not help.

Robert Pate
July 25th, 2015, 05:16 AM
If you are not in Christ before you die you are not saved.

Yea, death seems to be the thing that seals your destiny.

Jesus said, "Unless you believe that I am he you will die in your sins".

Robert Pate
July 25th, 2015, 05:19 AM
Speculating will not help.


Paul was as human as you and I. He had the same problem that we have. This is why he refered to himself as a sinner.

Jacob
July 25th, 2015, 11:00 PM
Yea, death seems to be the thing that seals your destiny.

Jesus said, "Unless you believe that I am he you will die in your sins".Are you found in Him?

Jacob
July 25th, 2015, 11:02 PM
Paul was as human as you and I. He had the same problem that we have. This is why he refered to himself as a sinner.If you are a Christian you should obey God in thanks for Him having saved you. If you are a sinner you need to repent and get right with God.