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republicanchick
July 23rd, 2015, 04:26 PM
so many so called Christians say that all you have to do is believe... always pointing to those psgs that seem to say this.. just believe stuff

well, if you really believe Jesus..

if you really, really believe in Him.. you will do what He says

He said this Himself

"If you love Me, you will keep My commandments"

Also see:

James 2:14

"Faith without works is dead"




__

Totton Linnet
July 23rd, 2015, 05:35 PM
I did not get from that who or which you believed, Christ or your works?

How long are you gunna keep up these works? they haven't saved you so far...will another 10 years of works save you?


When you lay on your death bed will you have done enough?

turbosixx
July 23rd, 2015, 05:41 PM
so many so called Christians say that all you have to do is believe... always pointing to those psgs that seem to say this.. just believe stuff

well, if you really believe Jesus..

if you really, really believe in Him.. you will do what He says

He said this Himself

"If you love Me, you will keep My commandments"

Also see:

James 2:14

"Faith without works is dead"




__

It takes more than mere belief. It takes belief that causes action. That is what it means to believe. Saved by "faith alone" is a scheme of the devil. Just as he told Adam and Eve they would NOT surely die, today he says "faith without works is NOT dead."

Totton Linnet
July 23rd, 2015, 05:45 PM
By the way I think you are very proud to think you can do something that will save you....your sins cry to heaven, God demands that you die for your sins.

You say "Lord, Lord, did I not do this? and did I not do that?" but God roars and says "Your sins, your sins...you shall surely die"

"But, but Lord you came and preached in our streets"

"Your sins, your sins...you must die for your sins, the wages of sin is death"

Yes the wages of sins is death, I'm so glad that Jesus died for me

DAN P
July 23rd, 2015, 05:49 PM
[/B]


Hi , and what commandments and verse is this found ??

dAN P

turbosixx
July 23rd, 2015, 05:52 PM
By the way I think you are very proud to think you can do something that will save you....your sins cry to heaven, God demands that you die for your sins.

You say "Lord, Lord, did I not do this? and did I not do that?" but God roars and says "Your sins, your sins...you shall surely die"

"But, but Lord you came and preached in our streets"

"Your sins, your sins...you must die for your sins, the wages of sin is death"

Yes the wages of sins is death, I'm so glad that Jesus died for me

Yes, Jesus did for us what we COULD NOT do, does that free us from doing what we can do? Are we free to do nothing?

john w
July 23rd, 2015, 06:57 PM
so many so called Christians say that all you have to do is believe... always pointing to those psgs that seem to say this.. just believe stuff

well, if you really believe Jesus..

if you really, really believe in Him.. you will do what He says
He said this Himself...

"..sell all that thou hast,.."- Luke 18:22 KJV

Do it.


I thought so.


Another fraud "argument."

Daniel1611
July 23rd, 2015, 07:14 PM
People seem to think that if they follow some if the commandments that they're doing such great things, above and beyond everyone else. Wrong. If you obey every single commandment all the time and do everything the Bible says, you're at zero. You're doing what you are commanded to do. What reward shall a man have for doing the work he was hired to do? When you go to work and do your job, your boss doesn't go out of his way to praise you because you are doing what he said to.

Likewise, if you do everything that the Bible says to do, you aren't going above and beyond. You are doing the minimum commanded. And no one does even that much. If you aren't saved by faith alone, then you aren't saved.

turbosixx
July 23rd, 2015, 07:26 PM
People seem to think that if they follow some if the commandments that they're doing such great things, above and beyond everyone else. Wrong. If you obey every single commandment all the time and do everything the Bible says, you're at zero. You're doing what you are commanded to do. What reward shall a man have for doing the work he was hired to do? When you go to work and do your job, your boss doesn't go out of his way to praise you because you are doing what he said to.

Likewise, if you do everything that the Bible says to do, you aren't going above and beyond. You are doing the minimum commanded. And no one does even that much. If you aren't saved by faith alone, then you aren't saved.

"by faith alone"

"not by faith alone"

One is a direct quote from scripture and one is not. Which one should be believe? I'll take scripture.

Nick M
July 23rd, 2015, 07:31 PM
It takes more than mere belief. It takes belief that causes action. That is what it means to believe. Saved by "faith alone" is a scheme of the devil. Just as he told Adam and Eve they would NOT surely die, today he says "faith without works is NOT dead."

You will die in your sins with the heathen.

Daniel1611
July 23rd, 2015, 07:36 PM
"by faith alone"

"not by faith alone"

One is a direct quote from scripture and one is not. Which one should be believe? I'll take scripture.

So what you're saying is you have and do obey every commandment at all times without fail? If it's not faith alone, you best be sinless. If you break the law in one point, you are guilty of all.

turbosixx
July 23rd, 2015, 08:21 PM
So what you're saying is you have and do obey every commandment at all times without fail? If it's not faith alone, you best be sinless. If you break the law in one point, you are guilty of all.

That's not the way I understand it.

As Christians we are live the best we can as Christ our example. 7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from all sin.

We are human so we will sin. 8 If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.

But in Christ, we have his blood that cleanses us of our sin. 9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness.

We can not obey every commandment and be sinless, that's why it's grace. Once in Christ, are we free to do nothing?

Daniel1611
July 23rd, 2015, 08:30 PM
That's not the way I understand it.

As Christians we are live the best we can as Christ our example. 7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from all sin.

We are human so we will sin. 8 If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.

But in Christ, we have his blood that cleanses us of our sin. 9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness.

We can not obey every commandment and be sinless, that's why it's grace. Once in Christ, are we free to do nothing?

So you don't have to follow Jesus's commandments to be saved? Which is it?

Works salvation doesnt even make sense. You need the obedience to be saved, but if you aren't obedient then you're still forgiven and saved? It doesn't make sense. It's by faith alone, not of works and not of ourselves. It is the gift of God.

glorydaz
July 23rd, 2015, 08:38 PM
That's not the way I understand it.

As Christians we are live the best we can as Christ our example. 7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from all sin.

We are human so we will sin. 8 If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.

But in Christ, we have his blood that cleanses us of our sin. 9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness.

We can not obey every commandment and be sinless, that's why it's grace. Once in Christ, are we free to do nothing?

There is only one way to be free from sin and that necessitates our being delivered from the law. Which is why we are no longer under the law but under grace. Sin is transgression of the law and the wages of sin is death.


Romans 6:6-7
Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. For he that is dead is freed from sin.

It is the Holy Spirit that does His work in us after we obey the Gospel and believe. That's our job ....to believe. Then we rest while God performs the conforming of us into the image of Jesus Christ. Get out of His way and stop worrying about "sin". Our Lord dealt with that already.

turbosixx
July 23rd, 2015, 09:03 PM
There is only one way to be free from sin and that necessitates our being delivered from the law. Which is why we are no longer under the law but under grace. Sin is transgression of the law and the wages of sin is death.


Romans 6:6-7
Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. For he that is dead is freed from sin.

It is the Holy Spirit that does His work in us after we obey the Gospel and believe. That's our job ....to believe. Then we rest while God performs the conforming of us into the image of Jesus Christ. Get out of His way and stop worrying about "sin". Our Lord dealt with that already.

I would suggest to you that in Romans Paul is speaking about dying to the Mosaical law that had no provision for the forgiveness of sins. That is why one has to die to the law of Moses in order to live in Christ. We can't follow both.

Once in Christ, are we free to live as we choose?

turbosixx
July 23rd, 2015, 09:10 PM
So you don't have to follow Jesus's commandments to be saved? Which is it?

Works salvation doesnt even make sense. You need the obedience to be saved, but if you aren't obedient then you're still forgiven and saved? It doesn't make sense. It's by faith alone, not of works and not of ourselves. It is the gift of God.

I think you miss understood what I meant. I don't believe in works salvation in that we earn salvation through our works.

I don't know if you realize you did this, but if you look at the passage you quoted, you ADDED to God's word because alone is not there.

8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast.


Yes, we are saved by faith, but faith alone or faith that works? It says, "not by works", it doesn't say without works. Our works can't save us but can we be saved without them?

14What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save them?

Daniel1611
July 24th, 2015, 03:49 AM
I think you miss understood what I meant. I don't believe in works salvation in that we earn salvation through our works.

I don't know if you realize you did this, but if you look at the passage you quoted, you ADDED to God's word because alone is not there.

8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast.


Yes, we are saved by faith, but faith alone or faith that works? It says, "not by works", it doesn't say without works. Our works can't save us but can we be saved without them?

14What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save them?

Paul said to him that worketh not but believeth, his faith is counted to him for righteousness.

I'm all for good works, but including then in salvation is basically works salvation.

turbosixx
July 24th, 2015, 04:49 AM
Paul said to him that worketh not but believeth, his faith is counted to him for righteousness.

I'm all for good works, but including then in salvation is basically works salvation.

I would suggest you are missing the point Paul is making in Romans when he contrast works and faith.

28For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law.

He says works of the law. You have to ask yourself, is he talking about law in general or a specific law (Mosaical)?

Jews who became Christians wanted to keep the law of Moses but Paul is telling them that the law brings about death because it had no provision to remove sin.

8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death. 3 For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin,

If you can show me in context that Paul is not talking about the law of Moses, then I will believe that works contribute nothing.

Tell me, what did the one talent man do wrong to be sent to hell?

Matt. 25:28 Therefore take away the talent from him, and give it to the one who has the ten talents.'...... 30 Throw out the worthless slave into the outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

heir
July 24th, 2015, 06:13 AM
so many so called Christians say that all you have to do is believe... always pointing to those psgs that seem to say this.. just believe stuffRomans 3:21-22 KJV, Romans 4:24-25 KJV




well, if you really believe Jesus..

if you really, really believe in Him.. you will do what He says

He said this Himself

"If you love Me, you will keep My commandments"
Matthew 15:24 KJV

Also see:

James 2:14

"Faith without works is dead"

James 1:1 KJV

heir
July 24th, 2015, 06:13 AM
Paul said to him that worketh not but believeth, his faith is counted to him for righteousness.

I'm all for good works, but including then in salvation is basically works salvation.:up: Yep! Romans 4:4-5 KJV

heir
July 24th, 2015, 06:28 AM
I think you miss understood what I meant. I don't believe in works salvation in that we earn salvation through our works. Yes, you do:


Yes, we are saved by faith, but faith alone or faith that works? It says, "not by works", it doesn't say without works. Our works can't save us but can we be saved without them?

14What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save themThe above is just another typical MUD response applying that which James wrote to these James 1:1 KJV and wrongly applying it to anyone in the dispensation of the grace of God and someone who is clueless about just whose faith it is that justified us and saved us.

Daniel1611
July 24th, 2015, 09:37 AM
:up: Yep! Romans 4:4-5 KJV

I guess Paul must've lied to the man that asked him how to be saved because he said believe on the LORD Jesus Christ and tho shall be saved. He forgot to tell him to obey commandments and do good works and get baptized... I guess, according to the works salvationist

RevTestament
July 24th, 2015, 10:26 AM
Hi , and what commandments and verse is this found ??

dAN P
John 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

Foxfire
July 24th, 2015, 11:02 AM
Faith, by itself, is prerequisite to salvation. Works are an inevitable and inextricable extension of faith.

If one truly has faith, then one is inclined to strengthen and broaden that faith. To act in accordance with that faith.

The very act of adhering to faith, is in itself an expression of works.

ie: engaging in a discussion supporting the virtue of faith alone, is in itself a manifestation of works.

IMOFWIW

RevTestament
July 24th, 2015, 11:09 AM
I think you miss understood what I meant. I don't believe in works salvation in that we earn salvation through our works.

I don't know if you realize you did this, but if you look at the passage you quoted, you ADDED to God's word because alone is not there.

8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast.


Yes, we are saved by faith, but faith alone or faith that works? It says, "not by works", it doesn't say without works. Our works can't save us but can we be saved without them?

14What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save them?
I wish the truth could be impressed upon them, but this "Pauline Christianity" has taken hold in America. It seems people like the idea of an effortless Christianity. Christ Himself said in effect to believe on Him was to follow Him - it is not just confessing one's belief with one's mouth - that may get one in the door, but to remain a Christian, one is called to follow Christ.
Matt 7:21 ¶Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

24 ¶Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:

turbosixx
July 24th, 2015, 11:10 AM
Yes, you do:

I could say the same for those that claim "faith alone". They will tell you faith that produces no works is not 'saving" faith.

Martin Luther, "faith that saves will never be alone" - Then it's not BY faith alone.



The above is just another typical MUD response applying that which James wrote to these James 1:1 KJV and wrongly applying it to anyone in the dispensation of the grace of God and someone who is clueless about just whose faith it is that justified us and saved us.

How convenient to be able to ignore inspired writing to make the bible fit your thinking. Rip James out of your bible and address the context of Romans and show me Paul is not talking about the law of Moses.

turbosixx
July 24th, 2015, 11:24 AM
I guess Paul must've lied to the man that asked him how to be saved because he said believe on the LORD Jesus Christ and tho shall be saved. He forgot to tell him to obey commandments and do good works and get baptized... I guess, according to the works salvationist

He also forgot to tell him "ALL" you have to do is believe. Those who believe will act on the gospel.

True believers act on the word they have heard.

Acts 2:41 So then, those who had received his word were baptized; and that day there were added about three thousand souls.


Who were added? Those who believed the message and responded to it.

How do you reconcile James and Paul?
24You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.
Did James lie?

SaulToPaul
July 24th, 2015, 11:26 AM
"If you love Me, you will keep My commandments"



Matthew 10:5 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:

Matthew 10:6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

Matthew 10:7 And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand.

heir
July 24th, 2015, 11:29 AM
How convenient to be able to ignore inspired writing to make the bible fit your thinking. Rip James out of your bible and address the context of Romans and show me Paul is not talking about the law of Moses.I do not ignore scripture. That's what you do. I rip nothing out of the Bible! I believe all scripture. It's all FOR us, but you must recognize that it's not all TO us. When you don't 2 Timothy 2:15 KJV you end up with MUD. You are making a MUDdy mess out of the word of God when you need to hold fast the form of sound words that you have heard of Paul (2 Timothy 1:13 KJV).

turbosixx
July 24th, 2015, 11:35 AM
I wish the truth could be impressed upon them, but this "Pauline Christianity" has taken hold in America. It seems people like the idea of an effortless Christianity. Christ Himself said in effect to believe on Him was to follow Him - it is not just confessing one's belief with one's mouth - that may get one in the door, but to remain a Christian, one is called to follow Christ.
Matt 7:21 ¶Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

24 ¶Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:

I see it as a scheme of the devil. He is the master at taking scripture and twisting it just enough so it's appealing. Peter even said it.

2 Pt. 3:16 as also in all his letters, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which the untaught and unstable distort, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction.

WonderfulLordJesus
July 24th, 2015, 11:38 AM
The word of God is clear on salvation, no need for endless editorials that stray from simple and clear gospel truth. No need for philosophical human error, nothing confusing to debate. You believe this, or you don't, as simple as that.

John 6

28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

Romans 10

5 For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them.
6 But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above)
7 Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead.)
8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;
9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Acts 16

27 And the keeper of the prison awaking out of his sleep, and seeing the prison doors open, he drew out his sword, and would have killed himself, supposing that the prisoners had been fled.
28 But Paul cried with a loud voice, saying, Do thyself no harm: for we are all here.
29 Then he called for a light, and sprang in, and came trembling, and fell down before Paul and Silas,
30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?
31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.
32 And they spake unto him the word of the Lord, and to all that were in his house.
33 And he took them the same hour of the night, and washed their stripes; and was baptized, he and all his, straightway.
34 And when he had brought them into his house, he set meat before them, and rejoiced, believing in God with all his house.

turbosixx
July 24th, 2015, 11:38 AM
I do not ignore scripture. That's what you do. I rip nothing out of the Bible! I believe all scripture. It's all FOR us, but you must recognize that it's not all TO us. When you don't 2 Timothy 2:15 KJV you end up with MUD. You are making a MUDdy mess out of the word of God when you need to hold fast the form of sound words that you have heard of Paul (2 Timothy 1:13 KJV).

I see harmony in all scripture. James agrees with Paul. James is written to Christians and applies to all Christians.

Please explain to me why the one talent man was sent to hell. What did he do wrong?

turbosixx
July 24th, 2015, 11:43 AM
The word of God is clear on salvation, no need for endless editorials that stray from simple and clear gospel truth. No need for philosophical human error, nothing confusing to debate. You believe this, or you don't, as simple as that.

John 6

28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

Romans 10

5 For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them.
6 But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above)
7 Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead.)
8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;
9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Acts 16

27 And the keeper of the prison awaking out of his sleep, and seeing the prison doors open, he drew out his sword, and would have killed himself, supposing that the prisoners had been fled.
28 But Paul cried with a loud voice, saying, Do thyself no harm: for we are all here.
29 Then he called for a light, and sprang in, and came trembling, and fell down before Paul and Silas,
30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?
31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.
32 And they spake unto him the word of the Lord, and to all that were in his house.
33 And he took them the same hour of the night, and washed their stripes; and was baptized, he and all his, straightway.
34 And when he had brought them into his house, he set meat before them, and rejoiced, believing in God with all his house.

I believe all scripture and strive to have harmony. Paul agrees with James.

heir
July 24th, 2015, 11:44 AM
I see harmony in all scripture. Acts 10:35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.

says the exact opposite of

Titus 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

You ignore one in favor of the other, but have no biblical reason by which to do so without rejecting one. You do not believe both verses. You are guilty of what you accuse me of.

heir
July 24th, 2015, 11:47 AM
I believe all scripture and strive to have harmony. Paul agrees with James.

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Ephesians 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

vs.

James 2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

James 2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

turbosixx
July 24th, 2015, 11:51 AM
Acts 10:35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.

says the exact opposite of

Titus 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

You ignore one in favor of the other, but have no biblical reason by which to do so without rejecting one. You do not believe both verses. You are guilty of what you accuse me of.

Titus is talking about earning salvation. The only way one could earn salvation is to be perfect.

How does one REALLY KNOW they are in Christ? The bible tells us.

1 Jn. 2:3 By this we know that we have come to know Him, if we keep His commandments.

How do we know who does not have the truth and is a liar.

4 The one who says, "I have come to know Him," and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him;

What did the one talent man do wrong?

turbosixx
July 24th, 2015, 11:53 AM
Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Ephesians 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

vs.

James 2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

James 2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

I would suggest to you that Eph is not saying without works. Again, we can not EARN salvation by our works but without them are we saved?

James is written to Christians, yes they have a Jewish background, but the truth isn't different for different people. We are all one in Christ.

Foxfire
July 24th, 2015, 01:22 PM
The assertion that "faith without works is dead" is not the same as asserting that works, in and of themselves, are a means of securing salvation.

Works are not a means of salvation, they are an intrinsic byproduct of faith.

Faith without works is not genuine. Ergo, faith without works IS dead.

The fact that so many "work" so diligently to proclaim faith as being the only means of salvation is testament to their faith. Works being the manifestation of faith and faith being the sole avenue to salvation.

republicanchick
July 24th, 2015, 01:23 PM
I did not get from that who or which you believed, Christ or your works?

How long are you gunna keep up these works? they haven't saved you so far...will another 10 years of works save you?


When you lay on your death bed will you have done enough?

sorry to see you don't u/stand Jesus's words...

IF you don't u/stand him, no response of mine will do any good



___

republicanchick
July 24th, 2015, 01:25 PM
It takes more than mere belief. It takes belief that causes action. That is what it means to believe. Saved by "faith alone" is a scheme of the devil. Just as he told Adam and Eve they would NOT surely die, today he says "faith without works is NOT dead."

yeh, how LIBERAL of people

to say it doesn't matter what you do...

biggst lie in the world...

then these liberal "christians" want to criticize and condemn liberals in poltics... ha ha... They have 3 fingers pointing back @ themselves




+

republicanchick
July 24th, 2015, 01:26 PM
Hi , and what commandments and verse is this found ??

dAN P

you can look it up online


__

turbosixx
July 24th, 2015, 01:26 PM
The assertion that "faith without works is dead" is not the same as asserting that works, in and of themselves, are a means of securing salvation.

Works are not a means of salvation, they are an intrinsic byproduct of faith.

Faith without works is not genuine. Ergo, faith without works IS dead.

The fact that so many "work" so diligently to proclaim faith as being the only means of salvation is testament to their faith. Works being the manifestation of faith and faith being the sole source of salvation.

Yes, faith is how we are saved but not by faith without works.

republicanchick
July 24th, 2015, 01:27 PM
Yes, Jesus did for us what we COULD NOT do, does that free us from doing what we can do? Are we free to do nothing?

nicely worded

these Bible ignrant folks who want to sin right & left and lie to themselves that God is OK with that.. geeze... never saw so much lying to yourself.. and others... they are true liberals



____

Daniel1611
July 24th, 2015, 01:27 PM
I wish the truth could be impressed upon them, but this "Pauline Christianity" has taken hold in America. It seems people like the idea of an effortless Christianity. Christ Himself said in effect to believe on Him was to follow Him - it is not just confessing one's belief with one's mouth - that may get one in the door, but to remain a Christian, one is called to follow Christ.
Matt 7:21 ¶Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

24 ¶Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:

Notice he says people call him Lord AND claim their wonderful works, and he tells them to depart. Because it isn't about your works. It is about Jesus' work. Following Jesus commandments is wise. It is foolish to break his commands. But it is not a prerequisite for salvation. If it were, no one would be saved because no one follows his commandments perfectly.

republicanchick
July 24th, 2015, 01:28 PM
N. Following Jesus commandments is wise. It is foolish to break his commands. But it is not a prerequisite for salvation. y.

prove it



++

Foxfire
July 24th, 2015, 01:28 PM
Hi , and what commandments and verse is this found ??

dAN P

Jn 14:15

Daniel1611
July 24th, 2015, 01:29 PM
prove it



++

Do you follow Jesus' commandments perfectly?

Foxfire
July 24th, 2015, 01:32 PM
Do you follow Jesus' commandments perfectly?

Do you "work" toward that end goal? ;)

Daniel1611
July 24th, 2015, 01:37 PM
Do you "work" toward that end goal?

I do my best. Far from perfect.

Luke 18:10-13

10*Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican.

11*The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.

12*I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.

13*And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.

14*I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.

republicanchick
July 24th, 2015, 01:48 PM
Do you follow Jesus' commandments perfectly?

more or less

no one said (nt me anyway) that a person had to be perfect to get to Heaven.. but if you don't give up mortal sin, you will NOT get there...

not loving your neighbor or trying to (as you love yourself) is a mortal sin... Looks like many here are violating that one right and left.. every day



__

republicanchick
July 24th, 2015, 02:02 PM
you actually have to be perfect to get to heaven, its a commandment :p

yeh, i realize i made a (OMG!!!!) mistake when i said you don't have to be perfect to get to Heaven. You do have to be perfect... yes indeedy

But what i meant was you don't have to be perfect to get to PURGATORY (which eventually leads to Heavn)

In Purgatory you will be perfected...



+.

Daniel1611
July 24th, 2015, 02:24 PM
more or less

no one said (nt me anyway) that a person had to be perfect to get to Heaven.. but if you don't give up mortal sin, you will NOT get there...

not loving your neighbor or trying to (as you love yourself) is a mortal sin... Looks like many here are violating that one right and left.. every day



__

If you're not following Jesus' commandments perfectly, then you are not following his commandments. You say you have to live out Christ's teaching to go heaven AND you say you don't have to follow all of it. Which is it? You either have to follow the commandments to be saved or you don't. You want it both ways. If it is works, it is no more grace.

Foxfire
July 24th, 2015, 02:36 PM
:up:
I do my best. Far from perfect.

Luke 18:10-13

10*Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican.

11*The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.

12*I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.

13*And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.

14*I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.


I do my best. Far from perfect. I think that's the key. :up:

Humility is a virtue that one must always strive (work) to be observant of.

turbosixx
July 24th, 2015, 03:46 PM
Notice he says people call him Lord AND claim their wonderful works, and he tells them to depart. Because it isn't about your works. It is about Jesus' work. Following Jesus commandments is wise. It is foolish to break his commands. But it is not a prerequisite for salvation. If it were, no one would be saved because no one follows his commandments perfectly.

You are not being honest with what the passage says. What is HIS accusation against them, not yours?

Verse 23 And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness.'

RevTestament
July 25th, 2015, 09:42 AM
Notice he says people call him Lord AND claim their wonderful works, and he tells them to depart. Because it isn't about your works. It is about Jesus' work. Following Jesus commandments is wise. It is foolish to break his commands. But it is not a prerequisite for salvation. If it were, no one would be saved because no one follows his commandments perfectly.

I don't read it that way - they said didn't we do this thing IN THY NAME? They weren't taking credit for doing the works with their mouths:

Matt 7:21 ¶Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

24 ¶Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:

I believe He is talking about the TV evangelist "healers" for example. Jesus' law is about the intent of the heart rather than the black letter law. In other words it gains us nothing to give money to the poor if we do it for show or to look pious to those in a crowd. It gains the TV evangelist nothing who puts on a show of "healings" if he is doing it to get more people to watch and collect more donations.

Now I am not saying we can perfect ourselves by following commandments. That is why we need His grace - that is how we are saved by His grace. But to intentionally not follow or break His commandments IS detrimental to our "salvation." He may not extend His grace to that kind of sin. He extends His grace to make up for our shortcomings - not to cover our intentional murders for instance. His grace takes into account our knowledge, understanding, experience, etc. This is why He said those Jews who had seen His miracles and yet rejected him would suffer more than those of Sodom and Gomorrah whom the judgment would be more tolerable for.

serpentdove
July 25th, 2015, 10:51 AM
so many so called Christians say that all you have to do is believe... always pointing to those psgs that seem to say this.. just believe stuff

well, if you really believe Jesus..

if you really, really believe in Him.. you will do what He says

He said this Himself

"If you love Me, you will keep My commandments"

Also see:

James 2:14

"Faith without works is dead"Repentance (Ac 8:22) or conversion (Ac 15:3) is turning (Ac 9:35) or returning (1 Sa 7:3). "Believe (http://vananne.com/armorofthelord/Believe.htm) in the original language means "to be convinced"..." Full text: Armor of the Lord (http://vananne.com/armorofthelord/)

If you're the real deal--your life will show it. Bear fruits worthy of repentance (Lk 3:8).

Bad roots bad fruits. Good roots good fruits (Jm 2:17-18). http://www.sherv.net/cm/emoticons/eating/tomato-smiley-emoticon.gif

See:

Works vs. Faith (http://vananne.com/culttoasters/Works%20vs%20Faith.htm)

republicanchick
July 25th, 2015, 10:52 AM
If you're not following Jesus' commandments perfectly, then you are not following his commandments. You say you have to live out Christ's teaching to go heaven AND you say you don't have to follow all of it. Which is it? You either have to follow the commandments to be saved or you don't. You want it both ways. If it is works, it is no more grace.

stop putting dumb words in my mouth

it is not impossible to give up MORTAL sin (fornication, abortion, homosexual acts, "doing yourself"...)

But it IS hard to give up... holding a grudge against someone who is truly evil

it IS difficult to forgive objectively speaking evil people who harm you... or would if u gave them a chance...

yet we are called to forgive. If you tell God I am NOT going to even try to forgive.. that is a mortal sin. But if you try and fail and try and fail many tmes... God knows your heart and will not hold that against you (unless u stop trying)



+++

republicanchick
July 25th, 2015, 10:54 AM
Repentance (Ac 8:22) or conversion (Ac 15:3) is turning (Ac 9:35) or returning (1 Sa 7:3). "Believe (http://vananne.com/armorofthelord/Believe.htm) in the original language means "to be convinced"..." Full text: Armor of the Lord (http://vananne.com/armorofthelord/)

If you're the real deal--your life will show it. Bear fruits worthy of repentance (Lk 3:8).

Bad roots bad fruits. Good roots good fruits (Jm 2:17-18). .gif[/img]
Faith [/URL]

yeh, and those who say they don't see good or bad fruits in a given person (Ted Cruz, etc) are LYING




++

Daniel1611
July 25th, 2015, 10:54 AM
stop putting dumb words in my mouth

it is not impossible to give up MORTAL sin (fornication, abortion, homosexual acts, "doing yourself"...)

But it IS hard to give up... holding a grudge against someone who is truly evil

it IS difficult to forgive objectively speaking evil people who harm you... or would if u gave them a chance...

yet we are called to forgive. If you tell God I am NOT going to even try to forgive.. that is a mortal sin. But if you try and fail and try and fail many tmes... God knows your heart and will not hold that against you (unless u stop trying)



+++

Way to make up the rules as you go. Your explanation is found nowhere in scripture

serpentdove
July 25th, 2015, 11:37 AM
It takes more than mere belief. It takes belief that causes action...Faith leads to action (Rom. 7:4). They are going to need spiritual eyeballs (Ac 26:17, 1 Jn 5:19).

http://vananne.com/serpentdove/5096894576974697459876854976958.jpg

heir
July 25th, 2015, 01:04 PM
Titus is talking about earning salvation. The only way one could earn salvation is to be perfect.Acts 10:35 KJV says

Acts 10:35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.

while Titus 3:5 KJV says the opposite

Titus 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

They both mean what they say, but say the exact opposite! Only one is true of salvation today and it's Titus 3:5 KJV!



How does one REALLY KNOW they are in Christ? The bible tells us.

1 Jn. 2:3 By this we know that we have come to know Him, we keep His commandments.Wrong again! We live in the "but now" where the righteousness of God without the law is manifested!

The righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ is upon all them that believe!

Romans 3:21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;

Romans 3:22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

"Believe" what? Believe the gospel of Christ (1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV), which is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth (not keeping commandments)

Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

for therein (in the gospel of Christ) is the righteousness of God is revealed!

Romans 1:17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

Now is the accepted time; behold now is the day of salvation!

2 Corinthians 6:2 (For he saith, I have heard thee in a time accepted, and in the day of salvation have I succoured thee: behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation.)

heir
July 25th, 2015, 01:06 PM
Faith leads to action (Rom. 7:4). They are going to need spiritual eyeballs (Ac 26:17, 1 Jn 5:19).

http://vananne.com/serpentdove/5096894576974697459876854976958.jpgThe gospel of Christ is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth, not your religious, denominational ball and chain.

Grosnick Marowbe
July 25th, 2015, 01:07 PM
Acts 10:35 KJV says

Acts 10:35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.

while Titus 3:5 KJV says the opposite

Titus 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

They both mean what they say, but say the exact opposite! Only one is true of salvation today and it's Titus 3:5 KJV!


Wrong again! We live in the "but now" where the righteousness of God without the law is manifested!

The righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ is upon all them that believe!

Romans 3:21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;

Romans 3:22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

"Believe" what? Believe the gospel of Christ (1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV), which is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth (not keeping commandments)

Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

for therein (in the gospel of Christ) is the righteousness of God is revealed!

Romans 1:17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

Now is the accepted time; behold now is the day of salvation!

2 Corinthians 6:2 (For he saith, I have heard thee in a time accepted, and in the day of salvation have I succoured thee: behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation.)

Excellent

glorydaz
July 25th, 2015, 01:24 PM
Acts 10:35 KJV says

Acts 10:35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.

while Titus 3:5 KJV says the opposite

Titus 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

They both mean what they say, but say the exact opposite! Only one is true of salvation today and it's Titus 3:5 KJV!


Wrong again! We live in the "but now" where the righteousness of God without the law is manifested!

The righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ is upon all them that believe!



Now these are some of the things that need to be rightly divided, as you have done here, Heir. It's why we have so much confusion, and why people like God's UNtruth keep preaching error. Sometimes I wonder if they even believe that the RISEN LORD appeared to Paul and gave him this revelation of righteousness and salvation. Law and grace are like oil and water....they don't mix, so why do people keep trying to get them to mix?

turbosixx
July 25th, 2015, 01:29 PM
Acts 10:35 KJV says

Acts 10:35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.

while Titus 3:5 KJV says the opposite

Titus 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

They both mean what they say, but say the exact opposite! Only one is true of salvation today and it's Titus 3:5 KJV!

I'm not sure how you can see the bible saying things that are opposite and not in harmony with each other. Did Cornelius earn acceptance? Is acceptance salvation in this passage?

turbosixx
July 25th, 2015, 01:37 PM
Wrong again! We live in the "but now" where the righteousness of God without the law is manifested!

The righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ is upon all them that believe!

Romans 3:21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;

Romans 3:22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

"Believe" what? Believe the gospel of Christ (1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV), which is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth (not keeping commandments)

Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

for therein (in the gospel of Christ) is the righteousness of God is revealed!

Romans 1:17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.



Rom. 3:28 For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law.

When Paul says works "of the law" he is talking about the law of Moses which had no provision for the forgiveness of sins. That's why he calls it the law of sin and death. Rom. 8:2.

We are not under the law of Moses but under the law of Christ. Gal. 6:2.

If you can show me from the context of Roman, that he is not talking about the law of Moses, I would better understand what you are saying.

serpentdove
July 25th, 2015, 02:32 PM
The gospel of Christ is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth, not your religious, denominational ball and chain.
:yawn: Not receiving God's word? :juggle: You are not of God. His words find no place in you :listen: because your not his (Jn 8:44-47).

serpentdove
July 25th, 2015, 02:45 PM
yeh, how LIBERAL of people

to say it doesn't matter what you do...

biggst lie in the world... Ga 6:7 :dizzy:

popsthebuilder
July 25th, 2015, 07:48 PM
I did not get from that who or which you believed, Christ or your works?

How long are you gunna keep up these works? they haven't saved you so far...will another 10 years of works save you?


When you lay on your death bed will you have done enough?
Salvation is through Faith, good works, and truth.

Grosnick Marowbe
July 25th, 2015, 07:50 PM
so many so called Christians say that all you have to do is believe... always pointing to those psgs that seem to say this.. just believe stuff

well, if you really believe Jesus..

if you really, really believe in Him.. you will do what He says

He said this Himself

"If you love Me, you will keep My commandments"

Also see:

James 2:14

"Faith without works is dead"




__

James was written to the scattered sheep of Israel. Not the Body of Christ.

glorydaz
July 25th, 2015, 07:51 PM
:yawn: Not receiving God's word? :juggle: You are not of God. His words find no place in you :listen: because your not his (Jn 8:44-47).

Oh dear....you'd best place yourself on that heretic's list you got going. Isn't that you with the list?

Grosnick Marowbe
July 25th, 2015, 07:51 PM
:yawn: Not receiving God's word? :juggle: You are not of God. His words find no place in you :listen: because your not his (Jn 8:44-47).

Those verses were written to the Jews. Not to the Body of Christ.

popsthebuilder
July 25th, 2015, 07:52 PM
By the way I think you are very proud to think you can do something that will save you....your sins cry to heaven, God demands that you die for your sins.

You say "Lord, Lord, did I not do this? and did I not do that?" but God roars and says "Your sins, your sins...you shall surely die"

"But, but Lord you came and preached in our streets"

"Your sins, your sins...you must die for your sins, the wages of sin is death"

Yes the wages of sins is death, I'm so glad that Jesus died for me
Regardless of if you believe Jesus was God while he walked the earth, or not, you still must act in the same manner that you have faith, not belief. If all you have is some belief that can't be called Faith because of doubt, then you are currently lost. How can you believe something and not act accordingly, unless you don't really believe?

Grosnick Marowbe
July 25th, 2015, 07:53 PM
Oh dear....you'd best place yourself on that heretic's list you got going. Isn't that you with the list?

He certainly doesn't know how to "Rightly Divide" the Word.

popsthebuilder
July 25th, 2015, 07:53 PM
"..sell all that thou hast,.."- Luke 18:22 KJV

Do it.


I thought so.


Another fraud "argument."
Material possessions are worthless.

Grosnick Marowbe
July 25th, 2015, 07:55 PM
Salvation is through Faith, good works, and truth.

Faith in the truth, you mean.

Grosnick Marowbe
July 25th, 2015, 07:56 PM
The gospel of Christ is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth, not your religious, denominational ball and chain.

Amen

popsthebuilder
July 25th, 2015, 07:58 PM
People seem to think that if they follow some if the commandments that they're doing such great things, above and beyond everyone else. Wrong. If you obey every single commandment all the time and do everything the Bible says, you're at zero. You're doing what you are commanded to do. What reward shall a man have for doing the work he was hired to do? When you go to work and do your job, your boss doesn't go out of his way to praise you because you are doing what he said to.

Likewise, if you do everything that the Bible says to do, you aren't going above and beyond. You are doing the minimum commanded. And no one does even that much. If you aren't saved by faith alone, then you aren't saved.
That's the dumbest **** I ever heard. Work has **** to do with charity, or good works. No one is without sin. That doesn't mean party it up with complete disregard for your well being and the well being of existence. Good works are works of truth, kindness, charity, any positive selfless act is good works. That coupled with true Faith(not belief) is key. One or the other is ok. Both are better. None are to be proud. All praise is for God alone.

popsthebuilder
July 25th, 2015, 07:59 PM
You will die in your sins with the heathen.
Negativity definitely isn't the way.

Grosnick Marowbe
July 25th, 2015, 07:59 PM
I'm not sure how you can see the bible saying things that are opposite and not in harmony with each other. Did Cornelius earn acceptance? Is acceptance salvation in this passage?

You need to learn how to "Rightly Divide" the word then, the confusion
you feel, will pass, hopefully.

glorydaz
July 25th, 2015, 07:59 PM
Rom. 3:28 For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law.

When Paul says works "of the law" he is talking about the law of Moses which had no provision for the forgiveness of sins.

No provision?


Leviticus 4:20 And he shall do with the bullock as he did with the bullock for a sin offering, so shall he do with this: and the priest shall make an atonement for them, and it shall be forgiven them.


That's why he calls it the law of sin and death. Rom. 8:2.

We are not under the law of Moses but under the law of Christ. Gal. 6:2.

If you can show me from the context of Roman, that he is not talking about the law of Moses, I would better understand what you are saying.

So you're calling the ten commandments the law of Moses?


Romans 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.


Exodus 31:18 And he gave unto Moses, when he had made an end of communing with him upon mount Sinai, two tables of testimony, tables of stone, written with the finger of God.

popsthebuilder
July 25th, 2015, 08:05 PM
So what you're saying is you have and do obey every commandment at all times without fail? If it's not faith alone, you best be sinless. If you break the law in one point, you are guilty of all.
That just isn't true. What is so hard to conceive that Faith and acts of selflessness are both through God. Just people judging others is arrogance and pride and a sin. So how can you say that you would be prideful through selfless acts more so than Faith alone. Pride isn't supposed to be part of the equation. Division of any kind isn't supposed to be in the equation. Negativity of any kind isn't supposed to be in the equation.

glorydaz
July 25th, 2015, 08:06 PM
It takes more than mere belief. It takes belief that causes action. That is what it means to believe. Saved by "faith alone" is a scheme of the devil. Just as he told Adam and Eve they would NOT surely die, today he says "faith without works is NOT dead."

So where's the list of how many works we have to do in order to get a passing grade?

Grosnick Marowbe
July 25th, 2015, 08:08 PM
So where's the list of how many works we have to do in order to get a passing grade?

Good question.

popsthebuilder
July 25th, 2015, 08:08 PM
Faith in the truth, you mean.
No. I mean truth with oneself and God.

glorydaz
July 25th, 2015, 08:08 PM
That just isn't true. What is so hard to conceive that Faith and acts of selflessness are both through God. Just people judging others is arrogance and pride and a sin. So how can you say that you would be prideful through selfless acts more so than Faith alone. Pride isn't supposed to be part of the equation. Division of any kind isn't supposed to be in the equation. Negativity of any kind isn't supposed to be in the equation.

Not by works of righteousness that we have done, but according to His mercy He saves us. Titus 3:5 Selfless acts = works of righteousness.

popsthebuilder
July 25th, 2015, 08:09 PM
And passing truth through acts and thought.

Grosnick Marowbe
July 25th, 2015, 08:11 PM
No. I mean truth with oneself and God.

What does that mean?

serpentdove
July 25th, 2015, 08:13 PM
Those verses were written to the Jews. Not to the Body of Christ.

Jas 1:21

"Not all Scripture is written to us, but all Scripture is written for us." ~ J. Vernon McGee

"John 8:44

Ye are of your father the devil (ὑμεις ἐκ του πατρος του διαβολου [humeis ek tou patros tou diabolou]). Certainly they can “understand” (γινωσκετε [ginōskete] in 43) this “talk” (λαλιαν [lalian]) though they will be greatly angered. But they had to hear it (ἀκουειν [akouein] in 43). It was like a bombshell in spite of the preliminary preparation. Your will to do (θελετε ποιειν [thelete poiein]). Present active indicative of θελω [thelō] and present active infinitive, “Ye wish to go on doing.” This same idea Jesus presents in Matt. 13:38 (the sons of the evil one, the devil) and 23:15 (twofold more a son of Gehenna than you). See also 1 John 3:8 for “of the devil” (ἐκ του διαβολου [ek tou diabolou]) for the one who persists in sinning. In Rev. 12:9 the devil is one who leads all the world astray. The Gnostic view that Jesus means “the father of the devil” is grotesque. Jesus does not, of course, here deny that the Jews, like all men, are children of God the Creator, like Paul’s offspring of God for all men in Acts 17:28. What he denies to these Pharisees is that they are spiritual children of God who do his will. They do the lusts and will of the devil. The Baptist had denied this same spiritual fatherhood to the merely physical descendants of Abraham (Matt. 3:9). He even called them “broods of vipers” as Jesus did later (Matt. 12:34). A murderer (ἀνθρωποκτονος [anthrōpoktonos]). Old and rare word (Euripides) from ἀνθρωπος [anthrōpos], man, and κτεινω [kteinō], to kill. In N.T. only here and 1 John 3:15. The Jews were seeking to kill Jesus and so like their father the devil. Stood not in the truth (ἐν τῃ ἀληθειᾳ οὐκ ἐστηκεν [en tēi alētheiāi ouk estēken]). Since οὐκ [ouk], not οὐχ [ouch], is genuine, the form of the verb is ἐστεκεν [esteken] the imperfect of the late present stem στηκω [stēkō] (Mark 11:25) from the perfect active ἑστηκα [hestēka] (intransitive) of ἱστημι [histēmi], to place. No truth in him (οὐκ ἐστιν ἀληθεια ἐν αὐτῳ [ouk estin alētheia en autōi]). Inside him or outside (environment). The devil and truth have no contact. When he speaketh a lie (ὁταν λαλῃ το ψευδος [hotan lalēi to pseudos]). Indefinite temporal clause with ὁταν [hotan] and the present active subjunctive of λαλεω [laleō]. But note the article το [to]: “Whenever he speaks the lie,” as he is sure to do because it is his nature. Hence “he speaks out of his own” (ἐκ των ἰδιων λαλει [ek tōn idiōn lalei]) like a fountain bubbling up (cf. Matt. 12:34). For he is a liar (ὁτι ψευστης ἐστιν [hoti pseustēs estin]). Old word for the agent in a conscious falsehood (ψευδος [pseudos]). See 1 John 1:10; Rom. 3:4. Common word in John because of the emphasis on ἀληθεια [alētheia] (truth). And the father thereof (και ὁ πατηρ αὐτου [kai ho patēr autou]). Either the father of the lie or of the liar, both of which are true as already shown by Jesus. Αὐτου [Autou] in the genitive can be either neuter or masculine. Westcott takes it thus, “because he is a liar and his father (the devil) is a liar,” making “one,” not the devil, the subject of “whenever he speaks,” a very doubtful expression." "Robertson, A. T. (1933). Word Pictures in the New Testament (Jn 8:44). Nashville, TN: Broadman Press.

Grosnick Marowbe
July 25th, 2015, 08:15 PM
Jas 1:21

"Not all Scripture is written to us, but all Scripture is written for us." ~ J. Vernon McGee

"John 8:44

Ye are of your father the devil (ὑμεις ἐκ του πατρος του διαβολου [humeis ek tou patros tou diabolou]). Certainly they can “understand” (γινωσκετε [ginōskete] in 43) this “talk” (λαλιαν [lalian]) though they will be greatly angered. But they had to hear it (ἀκουειν [akouein] in 43). It was like a bombshell in spite of the preliminary preparation. Your will to do (θελετε ποιειν [thelete poiein]). Present active indicative of θελω [thelō] and present active infinitive, “Ye wish to go on doing.” This same idea Jesus presents in Matt. 13:38 (the sons of the evil one, the devil) and 23:15 (twofold more a son of Gehenna than you). See also 1 John 3:8 for “of the devil” (ἐκ του διαβολου [ek tou diabolou]) for the one who persists in sinning. In Rev. 12:9 the devil is one who leads all the world astray. The Gnostic view that Jesus means “the father of the devil” is grotesque. Jesus does not, of course, here deny that the Jews, like all men, are children of God the Creator, like Paul’s offspring of God for all men in Acts 17:28. What he denies to these Pharisees is that they are spiritual children of God who do his will. They do the lusts and will of the devil. The Baptist had denied this same spiritual fatherhood to the merely physical descendants of Abraham (Matt. 3:9). He even called them “broods of vipers” as Jesus did later (Matt. 12:34). A murderer (ἀνθρωποκτονος [anthrōpoktonos]). Old and rare word (Euripides) from ἀνθρωπος [anthrōpos], man, and κτεινω [kteinō], to kill. In N.*T. only here and 1 John 3:15. The Jews were seeking to kill Jesus and so like their father the devil. Stood not in the truth (ἐν τῃ ἀληθειᾳ οὐκ ἐστηκεν [en tēi alētheiāi ouk estēken]). Since οὐκ [ouk], not οὐχ [ouch], is genuine, the form of the verb is ἐστεκεν [esteken] the imperfect of the late present stem στηκω [stēkō] (Mark 11:25) from the perfect active ἑστηκα [hestēka] (intransitive) of ἱστημι [histēmi], to place. No truth in him (οὐκ ἐστιν ἀληθεια ἐν αὐτῳ [ouk estin alētheia en autōi]). Inside him or outside (environment). The devil and truth have no contact. When he speaketh a lie (ὁταν λαλῃ το ψευδος [hotan lalēi to pseudos]). Indefinite temporal clause with ὁταν [hotan] and the present active subjunctive of λαλεω [laleō]. But note the article το [to]: “Whenever he speaks the lie,” as he is sure to do because it is his nature. Hence “he speaks out of his own” (ἐκ των ἰδιων λαλει [ek tōn idiōn lalei]) like a fountain bubbling up (cf. Matt. 12:34). For he is a liar (ὁτι ψευστης ἐστιν [hoti pseustēs estin]). Old word for the agent in a conscious falsehood (ψευδος [pseudos]). See 1 John 1:10; Rom. 3:4. Common word in John because of the emphasis on ἀληθεια [alētheia] (truth). And the father thereof (και ὁ πατηρ αὐτου [kai ho patēr autou]). Either the father of the lie or of the liar, both of which are true as already shown by Jesus. Αὐτου [Autou] in the genitive can be either neuter or masculine. Westcott takes it thus, “because he is a liar and his father (the devil) is a liar,” making “one,” not the devil, the subject of “whenever he speaks,” a very doubtful expression." "Robertson, A. T. (1933). Word Pictures in the New Testament (Jn 8:44). Nashville, TN: Broadman Press.

So, do you think you've convinced me?

serpentdove
July 25th, 2015, 08:27 PM
...these Bible ignrant folks who want to sin right & left and lie to themselves that God is OK with that.. geeze... never saw so much lying to yourself.. and others... they are true liberals...Some are deceived themselves (2 Tim. 3:13). An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure (Ps 119:11).

serpentdove
July 25th, 2015, 08:29 PM
["The Devil is a liar, and they are liars (8:44b)." Willmington, H. L. (1999). The Outline Bible (Jn 8:37–44). Wheaton, IL: Tyndale House Publishers.] "So, do you think you've convinced me?"

Of what?

meshak
July 25th, 2015, 08:39 PM
Salvation is through Faith, good works, and truth.

yes. Lip service will not do.

meshak
July 25th, 2015, 08:41 PM
Do you "work" toward that end goal? ;)

:)

serpentdove
July 25th, 2015, 08:48 PM
Salvation is through Faith, good works...No.

"Ro 11:6 grace … no longer of works. Human effort and God’s grace are mutually exclusive ways to salvation (cf. 3:21–31; 4:1–11; 9:11; Gal. 2:16, 21; 3:11, 12, 18; Titus 3:5)." MacArthur, J., Jr. (Ed.). (1997). The MacArthur Study Bible (electronic ed., p. 1714). Nashville, TN: Word Pub.

"You are not saved by your works. You work because you're saved." ~ Adrian Rogers


...and truth.Ro 10:17, Ps 119:160

glorydaz
July 25th, 2015, 09:06 PM
Regardless of if you believe Jesus was God while he walked the earth, or not, you still must act in the same manner that you have faith, not belief. If all you have is some belief that can't be called Faith because of doubt, then you are currently lost. How can you believe something and not act accordingly, unless you don't really believe?

There you put the onus on man and his works of righteousness. Not good.


And do you give yourself credit for "acting accordingly" or do you acknowledge that we are being conformed into the image of the Son?


Philippians 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

1 Thessalonians 5:23-24KJV
And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. Faithful is he that calleth you, who also will do it.

Philippians 1:6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:

The minute we put our eyes on ourselves, we are taking our eyes off the ONE who deserves all the glory. (If left up to me, I would not even begin to be like Him. And I don't mind admitting it.)

Foxfire
July 25th, 2015, 09:09 PM
"You are not saved by your works. You work because you're saved." ~ Adrian Rogers

That!

meshak
July 25th, 2015, 09:20 PM
That!

watch out for sleazy comments.

popsthebuilder
July 25th, 2015, 09:30 PM
Glorydaz,

Rightious/ good : same thing. Works and Faith.

All credit/ praise is for God.

glorydaz
July 25th, 2015, 09:32 PM
Glorydaz,

Rightious/ good : same thing. Works and Faith.

All credit/ praise is for God.

God works in us....we rest in Him. That is the way He gets all the glory.

glorydaz
July 25th, 2015, 09:33 PM
watch out for sleazy comments.

Shut up, Meshak.

popsthebuilder
July 25th, 2015, 09:39 PM
God works in us....we rest in Him. That is the way He gets all the glory.
However you want to word it.

To be truly selfless is to work toward the Lord.

PneumaPsucheSoma
July 25th, 2015, 10:05 PM
The assertion that "faith without works is dead" is not the same as asserting that works, in and of themselves, are a means of securing salvation.

Works are not a means of salvation, they are an intrinsic byproduct of faith.

Faith without works is not genuine. Ergo, faith without works IS dead.

The fact that so many "work" so diligently to proclaim faith as being the only means of salvation is testament to their faith. Works being the manifestation of faith and faith being the sole avenue to salvation.

Finally, the voice of reason.

Paul and James are whispering to each other in total agreement.

turbosixx
July 26th, 2015, 05:47 AM
You need to learn how to "Rightly Divide" the word then, the confusion
you feel, will pass, hopefully.

I'm not confused until I try to apply what Heir said. Did Cornelius earn acceptance? Is acceptance salvation?

meshak
July 26th, 2015, 05:52 AM
Most of you who use the term "rightly dividing' don't even know what it means.

turbosixx
July 26th, 2015, 05:52 AM
No provision?


Leviticus 4:20 And he shall do with the bullock as he did with the bullock for a sin offering, so shall he do with this: and the priest shall make an atonement for them, and it shall be forgiven them.

If sins could be forgiven under the law then why did Jesus have to die?

Gal. 2:21 I do not nullify the grace of God, for if righteousness comes through the Law, then Christ died needlessly."


So you're calling the ten commandments the law of Moses?


Romans 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.


Exodus 31:18 And he gave unto Moses, when he had made an end of communing with him upon mount Sinai, two tables of testimony, tables of stone, written with the finger of God.

The 10 commandments are part of the law of Moses.

Rom. 7:6 But now we have been released from the Law, having died to that by which we were bound, so that we serve in newness of the Spirit and not in oldness of the letter.

serpentdove
July 26th, 2015, 05:55 AM
John 6

28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent. Yes. Men must first be born again (Jn 1:13, 1 Pe 1:23). Come (Mt 11:29), believe (Jn 14:1), abide (Jn 15:4), follow him (Mt 28:20). He has the words of eternal life (Jn 6:68).

serpentdove
July 26th, 2015, 06:01 AM
God works in us....we rest in Him. That is the way He gets all the glory.

It's him not us (1 Jn 5:1).

"Your duty has become your joy." ~ Timothy Keller

turbosixx
July 26th, 2015, 06:03 AM
No.

"Ro 11:6 grace … no longer of works. Human effort and God’s grace are mutually exclusive ways to salvation (cf. 3:21–31; 4:1–11; 9:11; Gal. 2:16, 21; 3:11, 12, 18; Titus 3:5)." MacArthur, J., Jr. (Ed.). (1997). The MacArthur Study Bible (electronic ed., p. 1714). Nashville, TN: Word Pub.

"You are not saved by your works. You work because you're saved." ~ Adrian Rogers

Ro 10:17, Ps 119:160

From the context, what works is the audience Paul is talking to trusting in?

serpentdove
July 26th, 2015, 06:11 AM
...Lip service will not do.

:noway: "The fruit always matches the tree." ~ Daryl Ferguson Lk 6:15-20

http://st.depositphotos.com/1001555/4183/i/110/depositphotos_41832375-Fruit-cartoon-characters-.jpg

As a reminder meshak is number 17 on Satan, Inc. (TOL Heretics list) (http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=86620) in "The 'Jesus is not God' people (Non-trinitarians) category. :burnlib:

popsthebuilder
July 26th, 2015, 08:15 AM
From the context, what works is the audience Paul is talking to trusting in?
Human effort to the point of action is good work under the guidance of the Lord.

Jerry Shugart
July 26th, 2015, 10:59 AM
Yes. Men must first be born again (Jn 1:13, 1 Pe 1:23). Come (Mt 11:29), believe (Jn 14:1), abide (Jn 15:4), follow him (Mt 28:20). He has the words of eternal life (Jn 6:68).

All those who believe in the Lord Jesus have eternal life:


"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life" (Jn.3:16).

And here is what the Lord Jesus said about those to whom He gives eternal life:


"And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand" (Jn.3:16).

Grosnick Marowbe
July 26th, 2015, 12:04 PM
Most of you who use the term "rightly dividing' don't even know what it means.

This is what Meshak believes:

1) Paul is an anti-Christ!
2) Matthew, Mark, and Luke are the only books she believes in!
3) She despises those who believe in the Trinity!
4) She doesn't know if she's saved!
5) Hates the U.S. military
6) Believes she has a shot at Heaven by obeying God's laws!
7) She rejects the Grace Message! (Paul's Gospel)
8) Has said that the Jehovah Witnesses are a holy people!
9) Hates what she calls, "Main streamers!" (Church goers)
10)Lives within the law and not under Grace!

Do you really want to listen to her rantings?

Grosnick Marowbe
July 26th, 2015, 12:07 PM
Meshak offers NOTHING to TOL, except false beliefs and disruption. Her only
redeeming quality is, the entertainment value.

glorydaz
July 26th, 2015, 12:20 PM
When Paul says works "of the law" he is talking about the law of Moses which had no provision for the forgiveness of sins.


If sins could be forgiven under the law then why did Jesus have to die?

You said there was no "provision". There was provision...the sacrificial system.


Hebrews 10KJV For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.

Romans 3:1KJV That sacrificial system was God's forbearance until Christ shed His blood on the cross.


Romans 3:25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;


The 10 commandments are part of the law of Moses.

Rom. 7:6 But now we have been released from the Law, having died to that by which we were bound, so that we serve in newness of the Spirit and not in oldness of the letter.

Nice quote but it doesn't prove what you think. If the ten commandments are part of the law of Moses, why were the tablets of stone kept inside the ark and Moses' law on the outside?

Deut. 31:9KJV Deut 4:36KJV Deut 5:22KJV Exodus 31:18

If you want to be under some, perhaps you would explain what the "Law of Christ" means to you.

turbosixx
July 26th, 2015, 12:46 PM
You said there was no "provision". There was provision...the sacrificial system.


Hebrews 10KJV For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.

Romans 3:1KJV That sacrificial system was God's forbearance until Christ shed His blood on the cross.


Romans 3:25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; [/quoe]

What I mean by provision is that the law of Moses could not remove sins.

Heb. 10:4 For it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins.


Nice quote but it doesn't prove what you think. If the ten commandments are part of the law of Moses, why were the tablets of stone kept inside the ark and Moses' law on the outside?

Deut. 31:9KJV Deut 4:36KJV Deut 5:22KJV Exodus 31:18

If you want to be under some, perhaps you would explain what the "Law of Christ" means to you.

It's hard for me to make the point without posting a lot of passages but if you look at the context of Romans, Paul is explaining to those who want to be under the Law of Moses that justification is not found by keeping the law but through Christ..

Rom. 3:28 For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law.

What law is he talking about? The law of Moses that separates Jew and Gentile.

Rom. 2:17 But if you bear the name "Jew" and rely upon the Law and boast in God
2:

Rom. 4:16 For this reason it is by faith, in order that it may be in accordance with grace, so that the promise will be guaranteed to all the descendants, not only to those who are of the Law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all,

When Paul says apart from works OF THE LAW he is not talking works in general or works of righteousness but works of the law of Moses.

I'm trying to understand where your coming from. In your understanding, can one be saved without works? Not works of the Mosaical law but works of the law of Christ.

glorydaz
July 26th, 2015, 01:09 PM
It's hard for me to make the point without posting a lot of passages but if you look at the context of Romans, Paul is explaining to those who want to be under the Law of Moses that justification is not found by keeping the law but through Christ..

What law is he talking about? The law of Moses that separates Jew and Gentile.

When Paul says apart from works OF THE LAW he is not talking works in general or works of righteousness but works of the law of Moses.



No, he is talking about God's law and any works of righteousness which we have done. Because even Gentiles have that "work of the law" written in their conscience.


Romans 2:14-15KJV
For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another; )

NOT OF YOURSELVES.....not of works....lest ANY MAN boast. This is why we have to guard against someone suggesting it's a matter of circumcision or various washings or rules (like God's UNtruth does). Paul is talking about righteousness not coming from any law through any works.


Eph. 2:8-9 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.

glorydaz
July 26th, 2015, 01:15 PM
I'm trying to understand where your coming from. In your understanding, can one be saved without works? Not works of the Mosaical law but works of the law of Christ.

We are saved solely by the Christ's work on the cross and His obedience unto death.


Romans 5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

glorydaz
July 26th, 2015, 01:16 PM
This is what Meshak believes:

1) Paul is an anti-Christ!
2) Matthew, Mark, and Luke are the only books she believes in!
3) She despises those who believe in the Trinity!
4) She doesn't know if she's saved!
5) Hates the U.S. military
6) Believes she has a shot at Heaven by obeying God's laws!
7) She rejects the Grace Message! (Paul's Gospel)
8) Has said that the Jehovah Witnesses are a holy people!
9) Hates what she calls, "Main streamers!" (Church goers)
10)Lives within the law and not under Grace!

Do you really want to listen to her rantings?

:mock: Meshak

Nick M
July 26th, 2015, 01:18 PM
We are saved solely by the Christ's work on the cross and His obedience unto death.


Romans 5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

And that one, isn't anybody on TOL or this earth.

turbosixx
July 26th, 2015, 02:23 PM
No, he is talking about God's law and any works of righteousness which we have done. Because even Gentiles have that "work of the law" written in their conscience.


Romans 2:14-15KJV
For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another; )



I see what your saying but if we look at the passage you quoted, how can they have the law on their hearts but not have the law?

Rom. 2:14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves,

What law do they not have?

turbosixx
July 26th, 2015, 02:27 PM
NOT OF YOURSELVES.....not of works....lest ANY MAN boast. This is why we have to guard against someone suggesting it's a matter of circumcision or various washings or rules (like God's UNtruth does). Paul is talking about righteousness not coming from any law through any works.


Eph. 2:8-9 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.

This passage does not say without works but not of works. If it were by works then we could earn it but that is impossible.

I would love to believe as you do but I have to be sure because my soul depends on it.

Yes, we can not earn salvation by works, but can we be saved without them?

turbosixx
July 26th, 2015, 02:38 PM
We are saved solely by the Christ's work on the cross and His obedience unto death.


Romans 5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

I'm trying to understand this faith alone thing so please bare with me.

Yes, Jesus did for us what we could not do, but does that free us from doing what we can do? Are we under no law? For instance, let's say I'm cheating on my wife and I become a believer, can I continue?

Daniel1611
July 26th, 2015, 03:12 PM
I'm trying to understand this faith alone thing so please bare with me.

Yes, Jesus did for us what we could not do, but does that free us from doing what we can do? Are we under no law? For instance, let's say I'm cheating on my wife and I become a believer, can I continue?

If you cheat on your wife God will punish you on this earth. I am saved. If I go commit adultery, I will get punished but I won't go to hell. Jesus gives eternal life and we will never perish. He didn't say you might perish if you do something. I'm not saved because of my good behavior so why would I become unsaved because of my behavior?

serpentdove
July 26th, 2015, 03:28 PM
This passage does not say without works but not of works. If it were by works then we could earn it but that is impossible.

I would love to believe as you do but I have to be sure because my soul depends on it.

Yes, we can not earn salvation by works, but can we be saved without them?

We cannot be saved by good works :o (Eph 2:8-9) but if we have no good works we are not saved (Lk 3:8). We are prepared for good works--so where are they? Eph 2:10

Which list are you on? Your works reveal who you are. It's not rocket science. :idunno:

"Paul spoke about the root of faith (Eph 2:8). James spoke about the fruit of faith (Jm 2:17-18)." ~ Adrian Rogers

The works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control (Ga 5:19–23).

serpentdove
July 26th, 2015, 03:41 PM
I see what your saying but if we look at the passage you quoted, how can they have the law on their hearts but not have the law?...What law do they not have?

Everyone has the law. It's on their heart. What's happening in the conscience? Is it accusing them? That's evil--in my face. I get it now. I don't like that. I don't want that. I don't want to be party to that. Or, is it excusing them? That's evil--and I love it! I'm running to it. It's what I prefer and I don't much have time for Jesus. Jn 3:19

Who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves their thoughts accusing or else excusing them (Ro 2:14–15).

serpentdove
July 26th, 2015, 04:05 PM
"I'm trying to understand this faith alone thing so please bare with me." “Faith alone saves, but the faith that saves is not alone.” ~ John Calvin


"[L]et's say I'm cheating on my wife and I become a believer, can I continue?"

If you are cheating on your wife, you're not a believer (Jn 15:14). If you are cheating on your wife and come to agree with God that you are evil, then your slave obedience turns into friend obedience (Ac 9:35) and you discontinue in your evil course (Jn 15:15).

serpentdove
July 26th, 2015, 04:17 PM
"If you cheat on your wife God will punish you on this earth."
What are you talking about? :dizzy: One of our tests to pass is watching the prosperity of the wicked (Ps. 73:1–28). Suck it up and praise God.

"Only a fool would envy a fool." ~ Adrian Rogers



"I am saved. If I go commit adultery, I will get punished but I won't go to hell."
Ro 8:13, Heb 12:14, 1 Co 6:9-10

See:

Apostasy & Eternal Security (http://vananne.com/applesofgold/Apostasy%20and%20Eternal%20Security.pdf)

glorydaz
July 26th, 2015, 04:33 PM
And that one, isn't anybody on TOL or this earth.

Exactly. :thumb:

glorydaz
July 26th, 2015, 04:39 PM
I see what your saying but if we look at the passage you quoted, how can they have the law on their hearts but not have the law?

Rom. 2:14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves,

What law do they not have?

They don't have the law written down in stone, but they do have that law built right into their conscience. We all know right from wrong because we were created with that knowledge in us.


Romans 1:19-20 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

glorydaz
July 26th, 2015, 04:56 PM
This passage does not say without works but not of works. If it were by works then we could earn it but that is impossible.

I would love to believe as you do but I have to be sure because my soul depends on it.

Yes, we can not earn salvation by works, but can we be saved without them?

Not by works of righteousness that we have done, but according to His mercy He saves us. Titus 3:5 Truly the righteousness of man is as filthy rags, and it's only what the Holy Spirit does through us that has any worth at all.

Salvation is a gift that cannot be earned or bought by man. Why?


Eph. 2:7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.

Man may glory in his works...but not before God. How can we earn a gift by doing what we ought? Would you give your son a reward for pulling up his pants if they fell down? ;)


Romans 4:2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.

Whatever good work we do is merely what we owe God as our Lord and Creator.


Romans 4:3-4 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.

God puts store in our believing and trusting in Him....not in our feeble attempts to be "perfect as our Father in heaven is perfect" which is what God requires.


Romans 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

glorydaz
July 26th, 2015, 05:03 PM
I'm trying to understand this faith alone thing so please bare with me.

Yes, Jesus did for us what we could not do, but does that free us from doing what we can do? Are we under no law? For instance, let's say I'm cheating on my wife and I become a believer, can I continue?

We have a liberty that we cannot have while under the law. But that's a whole topic in itself.

But, here's the answer to your "for instance":


If you cheat on your wife God will punish you on this earth. I am saved. If I go commit adultery, I will get punished but I won't go to hell. Jesus gives eternal life and we will never perish. He didn't say you might perish if you do something. I'm not saved because of my good behavior so why would I become unsaved because of my behavior?

:thumb:

And here's why:


1 Cor. 3:11-15 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

glorydaz
July 26th, 2015, 05:05 PM
If you cheat on your wife God will punish you on this earth. I am saved. If I go commit adultery, I will get punished but I won't go to hell. Jesus gives eternal life and we will never perish. He didn't say you might perish if you do something. I'm not saved because of my good behavior so why would I become unsaved because of my behavior?

There ya go, and it's a darn good thing, too. Where would God draw the line? One lie, two lies, one time of lust in one's heart....two.....ten?

Grosnick Marowbe
July 26th, 2015, 05:57 PM
What are you talking about? :dizzy: One of our tests to pass is watching the prosperity of the wicked (Ps. 73:1–28). Suck it up and praise God.

"Only a fool would envy a fool." ~ Adrian Rogers


Ro 8:13, Heb 12:14, 1 Co 6:9-10

See:

Apostasy & Eternal Security (http://vananne.com/applesofgold/Apostasy%20and%20Eternal%20Security.pdf)

What is he talking about, you say? He's talking about the discipline of
God the Father on His child.

Grosnick Marowbe
July 26th, 2015, 05:59 PM
“Faith alone saves, but the faith that saves is not alone.” ~ John Calvin



If you are cheating on your wife, you're not a believer (Jn 15:14). If you are cheating on your wife and come to agree with God that you are evil, then your slave obedience turns into friend obedience (Ac 9:35) and you discontinue in your evil course (Jn 15:15).

Anything John Calvin had to say, must be taken with a grain of salt!

Grosnick Marowbe
July 26th, 2015, 06:03 PM
Yes. Men must first be born again (Jn 1:13, 1 Pe 1:23). Come (Mt 11:29), believe (Jn 14:1), abide (Jn 15:4), follow him (Mt 28:20). He has the words of eternal life (Jn 6:68).

Those Scriptures were written to the Israelite's, not the Body of Christ.

Lon
July 26th, 2015, 06:05 PM
James 2:14

"Faith without works is dead"


"Marriage without living together is a farce."

True or false? More importantly, what do I have to 'do' in order to be married? Explain that and you'll understand the difference between Catholics and the rest of us AND I think you'll also appreciate the difference.

There are marriage conferences that help struggling couples. In my opinion, the problem is beyond do's and don'ts's. Why? Because the 'reason' one gets married is the 'reason' one stays married. IOW, if you are reduced to do's and do not's, you may be missing the 'reason' you are married in the first place.

James, imo, isn't saying "do works." He is saying something akin to "If you aren't living together as a couple, are you really married?"

Now, I know couples are separated by things, I'm not talking about that, I'm talking about a couple getting married and then leaving the church and never living together. Silly, right? How could they 'be' married? It doesn't make sense. I believe this is what James is saying because as a married person, I obviously do love my wife. As a Christian, I obviously do love Jesus. If that isn't true, then we wonder if that person knows what it means. Imho, that's all James is saying. That's it in a nutshell.

He isn't saying "live together to stay married" or "do works to stay with Jesus."
If I work in a different state to take care of my family, that doesn't mean anything about my marriage.
If I am or am not currently visiting those in prison, it doesn't mean I am not in Christ.
That isn't what I believe James is saying. I believe the Catholic church got this wrong. They are acting like a marriage conference giving couples a list of do's and do not's, missing the 'reason' (forest for a tree).

Grosnick Marowbe
July 26th, 2015, 06:06 PM
:mock: Meshak

Luckily, she's on a forced vacation.

heir
July 26th, 2015, 09:37 PM
I'm not sure how you can see the bible saying things that are opposite and not in harmony with each other.And I, am not sure how someone spiritual (1 Corinthians 2:13 KJV) can look at Acts 10:35 KJV and Titus 3:5 KJV and claim they are saying the same thing. They clearly aren't. Perhaps your problem is a natural one (1 Corinthians 2:14 KJV).
Did Cornelius earn acceptance? Actually, yes! Look at why his prayers and alms came up for a memorial before God (Acts 10:3-4 KJV). It was because of this:

Acts 10:1 There was a certain man in Caesarea called Cornelius, a centurion of the band called the Italian band,

Acts 10:2 A devout man, and one that feared God with all his house, which gave much alms to the people, and prayed to God alway.


Cornelius was a blesser and received a blessing because of it!



Genesis 12:3 And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.



This will also be true for Gentiles who bless Israel during the tribulation. Their blessing will be to inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. Those who don't bless Israel shall go away into everlasting punishment


Matthew 25:31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:

Matthew 25:32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:

Matthew 25:33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

Matthew 25:34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

Matthew 25:35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:

Matthew 25:36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.

Matthew 25:37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?

Matthew 25:38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?

Matthew 25:39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?

Matthew 25:40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.

Matthew 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

Matthew 25:42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:

Matthew 25:43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.

Matthew 25:44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?

Matthew 25:45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.

Matthew 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.




That's not going to happen for anyone today! There are no blessings unless you are in Christ!

Ephesians 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:

There's only way for anyone today to be in Christ and that's "by the gospel"!

Ephesians 3:6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:

Sancocho
July 26th, 2015, 09:41 PM
I did not get from that who or which you believed, Christ or your works?

How long are you gunna keep up these works? they haven't saved you so far...will another 10 years of works save you?


When you lay on your death bed will you have done enough?

Catholic doctrine clearly establishes being saved is a gift and works do not allow one to get to heaven. Any claims to the otherwise are mis-truths and are the work of none other than Satan.

heir
July 26th, 2015, 09:41 PM
Yes. Men must first be born again (Jn 1:13, 1 Pe 1:23). Come (Mt 11:29), believe (Jn 14:1), abide (Jn 15:4), follow him (Mt 28:20). He has the words of eternal life (Jn 6:68).
Not one word from Paul, our apostle (Romans 11:13 KJV) given the dispensation of the grace of God to usward (Ephesians 3:1-6 KJV)!

serpentdove
July 27th, 2015, 08:33 AM
[“Faith alone saves, but the faith that saves is not alone.” ~ John Calvin] Anything John Calvin had to say, must be taken with a grain of salt!

:yawn: His point remains (1 Jn 3:9). :peach:

See:

Does God Elect Everyone? (http://www.vananne.com/armorofthelord/Does%20God%20Elect%20Everyone.pdf)

Ben Masada
July 27th, 2015, 09:17 AM
I believe the only thing separating me from God would be sin. Christ is the bridge to God. I don't believe me behaving better makes my sin go away. So yes only faith can save a person from death(sin). A person will do good however after being freed. Why continue to do something that Christ died for?

This 'faith only' belief is very true! And as a result we will practice righteousness. Abraham believed in God and it was credited to him as righteousness. So we too who believe in God will have our faiths credited to us as righteousness through faith

Righteousness comes from a good heart. So make the tree good through faith and thus the fruit good, or rely on your flesh (whom desires fleshly desires). The human heart is very deceptive really

Prophet Isaiah said that the only way to set things right with God so that our sins from scarlet red become as white as snow is to repent and to return to the obedience of God's Law. (Isa. 1:18,19) And Jesus himself implied that the only way to escape hell-fire is by listening to "Moses" aka the Law. (Luke 16:31)

Sancocho
July 27th, 2015, 09:25 AM
I believe the only thing separating me from God would be sin. Christ is the bridge to God. I don't believe me behaving better makes my sin go away. So yes only faith can save a person from death(sin). A person will do good however after being freed. Why continue to do something that Christ died for?

This 'faith only' belief is very true! And as a result we will practice righteousness. Abraham believed in God and it was credited to him as righteousness. So we too who believe in God will have our faiths credited to us as righteousness through faith

Righteousness comes from a good heart. So make the tree good through faith and thus the fruit good, or rely on your flesh (whom desires fleshly desires). The human heart is very deceptive really

The problem is so many Protestants believe the false claim that Catholics work their way to heaven that they have decided works are not important and that sinning has little consequence if not resisted. The results are a nation of theoretical Christians that have allowed the godless to kill and corrupt our children. Then the same Protestants have the gall to say it was bound to happen because the world is corrupt!! Tell that to the real Christian nations that protect their children.

serpentdove
July 27th, 2015, 11:16 AM
If you cheat on your wife God will punish you on this earth.


What is he talking about, you say? He's talking about the discipline of
God the Father on His child.

He has made a truth claim :peach:--if you commit an evil act you will be punished in this life. You may be punished in this life or you may be punished in the next. Ga 6:7

You like to assure this guy of his salvation. I will do no such thing. 1 Jn 3:8

See:

Apostasy & Eternal Security (http://vananne.com/applesofgold/Apostasy%20and%20Eternal%20Security.pdf)

Daniel1611
July 27th, 2015, 12:52 PM
He has made a truth claim :peach:--if you commit an evil act you will be punished in this life. You may be punished in this life or you may be punished in the next. Ga 6:7

You like to assure this guy of his salvation. I will do no such thing. 1 Jn 3:8

See:

Apostasy & Eternal Security (http://vananne.com/applesofgold/Apostasy%20and%20Eternal%20Security.pdf)

So you believe you can lose your salvation?

heir
July 27th, 2015, 01:51 PM
So you believe you can lose your salvation?
sd is quite confused as is anyone who refuses to 2 Timothy 2:15 KJV.

Grosnick Marowbe
July 27th, 2015, 02:02 PM
He has made a truth claim :peach:--if you commit an evil act you will be punished in this life. You may be punished in this life or you may be punished in the next. Ga 6:7

You like to assure this guy of his salvation. I will do no such thing. 1 Jn 3:8

See:

Apostasy & Eternal Security (http://vananne.com/applesofgold/Apostasy%20and%20Eternal%20Security.pdf)

So, you expect to be judged and thrown into the Lake of Fire, if you should sin?

Grosnick Marowbe
July 27th, 2015, 02:04 PM
sd is quite confused as is anyone who refuses to 2 Timothy 2:15 KJV.

True.

turbosixx
July 27th, 2015, 04:50 PM
They don't have the law written down in stone, but they do have that law built right into their conscience. We all know right from wrong because we were created with that knowledge in us.


I would suggest to you that the law the Gentiles did not have is the law of Moses. When Paul refers to works of the law, he is talking about the law of Moses. It might be easier to see in Galatians.

Gal. 3:10 For all who rely on the works of the law are under a curse, as it is written: “Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law.”

So he is contrasting the law of Moses with the law of faith.

3:11 Clearly no one who relies on the law is justified before God, because “the righteous will live by faith.” 12The law is not based on faith; on the contrary, it says, “The person who does these things will live by them.”

It becomes even clearer that the law Paul is referring to is the Mosacial law when he says it appeared 430 years after the Promise God made to Abraham.

3:17 What I mean is this: The law, introduced 430 years later, does not set aside the covenant previously established by God and thus do away with the promise. 18 For if the inheritance depends on the law, then it no longer depends on the promise; but God in his grace gave it to Abraham through a promise.

He later tells them that if you want to be justified by the law (Mosaical) then they have fallen from grace.

Gal. 5:3 Again I declare to every man who lets himself be circumcised that he is obligated to obey the whole law. 4 You who are trying to be justified by the law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace.

glorydaz
July 27th, 2015, 04:53 PM
The problem is so many Protestants believe the false claim that Catholics work their way to heaven that they have decided works are not important and that sinning has little consequence if not resisted. The results are a nation of theoretical Christians that have allowed the godless to kill and corrupt our children. Then the same Protestants have the gall to say it was bound to happen because the world is corrupt!! Tell that to the real Christian nations that protect their children.

The term "Christian nation" is a real stretch. Certainly there are some saved people everywhere, but church buildings are filled with unsaved people in every nation.

I hate to be the bearer of bad tidings, but we cannot keep the godless from committing their godless acts. Satan is the god of this world, and our job is to preach the gospel of salvation to the lost. The only remedy for sin is Jesus Christ. Oh, and Catholics are no better than "Protestants" .....life is not found in religion, but in Christ.

I hope you don't become another Meshak railing on "mainstream churches". That would be a shame. :nono:

glorydaz
July 27th, 2015, 04:56 PM
I would suggest to you that the law the Gentiles did not have is the law of Moses. When Paul refers to works of the law, he is talking about the law of Moses. It might be easier to see in Galatians.

Gal. 3:10 For all who rely on the works of the law are under a curse, as it is written: “Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law.”

So he is contrasting the law of Moses with the law of faith.

3:11 Clearly no one who relies on the law is justified before God, because “the righteous will live by faith.” 12The law is not based on faith; on the contrary, it says, “The person who does these things will live by them.”

It becomes even clearer that the law Paul is referring to is the Mosacial law when he says it appeared 430 years after the Promise God made to Abraham.

3:17 What I mean is this: The law, introduced 430 years later, does not set aside the covenant previously established by God and thus do away with the promise. 18 For if the inheritance depends on the law, then it no longer depends on the promise; but God in his grace gave it to Abraham through a promise.

He later tells them that if you want to be justified by the law (Mosaical) then they have fallen from grace.

Gal. 5:3 Again I declare to every man who lets himself be circumcised that he is obligated to obey the whole law. 4 You who are trying to be justified by the law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace.


Paul said the Gentiles have the work of the law written in their conscience. You can choose to ignore that, but the fact remains we are not justified by DOING but by believing.

glorydaz
July 27th, 2015, 05:02 PM
Prophet Isaiah said that the only way to set things right with God so that our sins from scarlet red become as white as snow is to repent and to return to the obedience of God's Law. (Isa. 1:18,19) And Jesus himself implied that the only way to escape hell-fire is by listening to "Moses" aka the Law. (Luke 16:31)

You must submit to the righteousness of God....


Romans 10:1 Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved.

Romans 10:2 For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.

Romans 10:3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.

Romans 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

serpentdove
July 27th, 2015, 05:23 PM
Why continue to do something that Christ died for?

You wouldn't (Jn 10:27). If someone found your wallet with a hundred dollars in it and gave it back to you, you'd say thank you.

If someone took a bullet for you, you'd say thank you profusely. Ro 1:21, 5:8

intojoy
July 27th, 2015, 08:06 PM
so many so called Christians say that all you have to do is believe... always pointing to those psgs that seem to say this.. just believe stuff

well, if you really believe Jesus..

if you really, really believe in Him.. you will do what He says

He said this Himself

"If you love Me, you will keep My commandments"

Also see:

James 2:14

"Faith without works is dead"




__
“He that believeth on him is not judged: he that believeth not hath been judged already, because he hath not believed on the name of the only begotten Son of God.”
**John‬ *3:18‬ *ASV‬‬

Daniel1611
July 27th, 2015, 08:13 PM
The term "Christian nation" is a real stretch. Certainly there are some saved people everywhere, but church buildings are filled with unsaved people in every nation.

I hate to be the bearer of bad tidings, but we cannot keep the godless from committing their godless acts. Satan is the god of this world, and our job is to preach the gospel of salvation to the lost. The only remedy for sin is Jesus Christ. Oh, and Catholics are no better than "Protestants" .....life is not found in religion, but in Christ.

I hope you don't become another Meshak railing on "mainstream churches". That would be a shame. :nono:

The churches being filled with unsaved people is our fault. There are good churches, but many tailor their churches for the unsaved. They invite the unsaved, they don't stress teaching biblical doctrine, they teach things the unsaved will be comfortable with, make music the unsaved will be comfortable with, etc. It is no wonder there are so many unsaved people in churches.

heir
July 27th, 2015, 09:40 PM
:yawn: Not receiving God's word? :juggle: You are not of God. His words find no place in you :listen: because your not his (Jn 8:44-47).:chuckle:

heir
July 27th, 2015, 09:41 PM
Salvation is through Faith, good works, and truth.Our salvation is by grace through Christ's faith and finished work! How much scripture do you want to see from Paul, our apostle on the matter?

popsthebuilder
July 27th, 2015, 10:06 PM
Why would Jesus need Faith in his self? What are finished works?
Thanks.

rstrats
July 28th, 2015, 03:05 AM
Daniel1611,
re: "I am saved. If I go commit adultery, I will get punished but I won't go to hell."

In addition to serpentdove's reference to 1 Corinthians 6:9-10, there is Hebrews 10:26: "For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins."

turbosixx
July 28th, 2015, 05:04 AM
Paul said the Gentiles have the work of the law written in their conscience. You can choose to ignore that, but the fact remains we are not justified by DOING but by believing.

Paul says the Gentiles do the things contained in the law. What law is he talking about? The law they didn't have, the law written on their hearts is the law of Moses which came 430 years afer the promise.



For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:

The Gentiles did what people without God consider moral, such as do not murder.

Did they have the law of circumcision, keep the sabbath or worship of idols written on thier heart? Did they know to stone people for working on the sabbath?

Or not to associate with other peoples?
Acts 10:28 And he said unto them, Ye know how that it is an unlawful thing for a man that is a Jew to keep company, or come unto one of another nation;

turbosixx
July 28th, 2015, 05:25 AM
And I, am not sure how someone spiritual (1 Corinthians 2:13 KJV) can look at Acts 10:35 KJV and Titus 3:5 KJV and claim they are saying the same thing.

They are not the same thing but they are not opposite either because they are two different things. Acts 10 is talking about God accepting people who are not Jews and Titus is talking about salvation.

Acts 10 is about letting the Jews know the Gentiles are now part of God's plan.
Acts 11:3 Saying, Thou wentest in to men uncircumcised, and didst eat with them. 4 But Peter rehearsed the matter from the beginning,.....18 When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.

If we look at the contest and concider the vision and what Peter is saying, it's not salvation but now the Gentiles are accepted as God's people.

Acts 10:28..... but God hath shewed me that I should not call any man common or unclean.....34Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons: 35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.

He said all this before he preached Jesus to them.

Daniel1611
July 28th, 2015, 03:11 PM
If keeping commandments is part of salvation, how were people saved before the law was given?

turbosixx
July 28th, 2015, 04:16 PM
If keeping commandments is part of salvation, how were people saved before the law was given?

If we are saved by believing in Jesus and his blood, then how were people saved before his DBR?

Daniel1611
July 28th, 2015, 04:21 PM
If we are saved by believing in Jesus and his blood, then how were people saved before his DBR?

Way to dodge the question.

People were saved by faith in the LORD. The whole OT is looking forward to Jesus. Abraham looked forward to His day and rejoiced. It's always been by faith.

popsthebuilder
July 28th, 2015, 04:32 PM
Daniel1611,
re: "I am saved. If I go commit adultery, I will get punished but I won't go to hell."

In addition to serpentdove's reference to 1 Corinthians 6:9-10, there is Hebrews 10:26: "For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins."
Yeah, as in no repentance, no get outa hell free card for blasphemy.

PneumaPsucheSoma
July 28th, 2015, 04:37 PM
so many so called Christians say that all you have to do is believe... always pointing to those psgs that seem to say this.. just believe stuff

well, if you really believe Jesus..

if you really, really believe in Him.. you will do what He says

He said this Himself

"If you love Me, you will keep My commandments"

Also see:

James 2:14

"Faith without works is dead"

__

"All" you have to do?

Belief is faith, which is a substance (hypostasis). Since it's the substance that translates us into Christ (His hypostasis), that faith conforms us to the image of God's Son, as evidenced by the fruit of the Spirit and resulting works as we rest solely in Christ.

Works are merely the inevitable evidence of salvific faith; yet faith can never be acquired by works.

There's no such thing as "only" believing. If one believes, they will bear fruit. But that is not through effort or the works themselves. It's because one is engrafted into the tree of life and yields the fruit of that tree.

The obedience is in hearing the Rhema, which includes hearkening. Obedience is not works. Works are the inevitable result of the obedience of unfeigned faith.

We cannot and do not effect our own salvation by works.

popsthebuilder
July 28th, 2015, 04:40 PM
If keeping commandments is part of salvation, how were people saved before the law was given?
Through selfless acts and words and worship of the one God.

Daniel1611
July 28th, 2015, 04:43 PM
Through selfless acts and words and worship of the one God.

So they worked their way to heaven? They had to earn it?

popsthebuilder
July 28th, 2015, 04:43 PM
If we are saved by believing in Jesus and his blood, then how were people saved before his DBR?
The manifestation of Crist was possible before Jesus. Part of the intent of Jesus was to lead people to God through Crist which was something he was destined, and prophesied to do.

popsthebuilder
July 28th, 2015, 04:45 PM
It states that a man how practices the Word through word is with God, but the man who acts on the Word of God and speaks it is most vinerable in the eyes of the Lord.

turbosixx
July 28th, 2015, 04:46 PM
"All" you have to do?

Belief is faith, which is a substance (hypostasis). Since it's the substance that translates us into Christ (His hypostasis), that faith conforms us to the image of God's Son, as evidenced by the fruit of the Spirit and resulting works as we rest solely in Christ.

Works are merely the inevitable evidence of salvific faith; yet faith can never be acquired by works.

There's no such thing as "only" believing. If one believes, they will bear fruit. But that is not through effort or the works themselves. It's because one is engrafted into the tree of life and yields the fruit of that tree.

The obedience is in hearing the Rhema, which includes hearkening. Obedience is not works. Works are the inevitable result of the obedience of unfeigned faith.

We cannot and do not effect our own salvation by works.

Speaking of grafting. Why would these branches that are standing by their faith be cut off?

Rom. 11:20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; 21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either. 22 Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God's kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off.

popsthebuilder
July 28th, 2015, 04:48 PM
So they worked their way to heaven? They had to earn it?
Not earn as much as learn. Not works as in physical labor, good, selfless acts of charity in any form. The word is the guide. The acts, or works is the following of that guide. They lead to the one Lord.

turbosixx
July 28th, 2015, 04:49 PM
The manifestation of Crist was possible before Jesus. Part of the intent of Jesus was to lead people to God through Crist which was something he was destined, and prophesied to do.

So they believed in Christ? They are saved the same as we?

Daniel1611
July 28th, 2015, 04:50 PM
Not earn as much as learn. Not works as in physical labor, good, selfless acts of charity in any form. The word is the guide. The acts, or works is the following of that guide. They lead to the one Lord.

You're saying they were saved by what they did. Works salvation. The Bible suggests no such thing. If you aren't saved by faith alone, you aren't saved. That's what the Bible says. Period.

popsthebuilder
July 28th, 2015, 05:00 PM
So they believed in Christ? They are saved the same as we?
No. Not at all. Contrary to popular belief due to manipulation by the RCC, the fact that Crist is a state of being is nearly unknown by cristians today. This way of being was taught by Jesus the Crist. Or the son of God. The traditional concept of the trinity is false. And an attempt by the RRC to decapitate, or neuter the Crist consciousness. It has worked thus far as most people on this very board will be wholly enraged when they read this post.

Look up Christology, asceticism, Crist,

Upon the crucifixion of the one true son of God, the Romans and pagans destroyed most proof of what is known as Crist and the way to accomplish a true unity with God. Arius was one of the first practitioners that I know of who had an influence on original Christology, so asceticism.
Thank you for your ears. I mean no disrespect whatsoever.

PneumaPsucheSoma
July 28th, 2015, 05:25 PM
Speaking of grafting. Why would these branches that are standing by their faith be cut off?

Rom. 11:20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; 21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either. 22 Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God's kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off.


Because they continue not in His kindness. That's not faith. Most think faith (pistis) is hope/trust (elpis). It's not.

Right Divider
July 28th, 2015, 05:34 PM
Material possessions are worthless.
That wasn't why Jesus told them to sell all that they had.

Right Divider
July 28th, 2015, 06:04 PM
Why would Jesus need Faith in his self? What are finished works?
Thanks.
She didn't say that. You need to read more carefully.

Christ's finished work on the cross!

heir
July 28th, 2015, 07:02 PM
Why would Jesus need Faith in his self?
Thanks.He had hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began (Titus 1:2 KJV).


What are finished works?The wages of sin is death and Christ took the payoff in our place (Romans 4:25 KJV, Romans 6:23 KJV, 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV)!

All of the work necessary to save anyone today was accomplished by God through the faith and finished work of the Lord Jesus Christ in the WORLD'S place!

2 Corinthians 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

2 Corinthians 5:21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

1 Timothy 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; 6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

glorydaz
July 28th, 2015, 07:14 PM
The churches being filled with unsaved people is our fault. There are good churches, but many tailor their churches for the unsaved. They invite the unsaved, they don't stress teaching biblical doctrine, they teach things the unsaved will be comfortable with, make music the unsaved will be comfortable with, etc. It is no wonder there are so many unsaved people in churches.

Speak for yourself. ;)

glorydaz
July 28th, 2015, 07:29 PM
Paul says the Gentiles do the things contained in the law. What law is he talking about? The law they didn't have, the law written on their hearts is the law of Moses which came 430 years afer the promise.



For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:

The Gentiles did what people without God consider moral, such as do not murder.


Romans 2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:

Romans 2:15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness,

Asked and answered. Thou shalt not kill.


Did they have the law of circumcision, keep the sabbath or worship of idols written on thier heart? Did they know to stone people for working on the sabbath?

Or not to associate with other peoples?
Acts 10:28 And he said unto them, Ye know how that it is an unlawful thing for a man that is a Jew to keep company, or come unto one of another nation;

That's the law of Moses. See how easy that was?

popsthebuilder
July 28th, 2015, 07:56 PM
Heir,

1) Exactly. And that is the message we are to follow.

2) The works of Crist are not finished. You have been misinformed. Jesus was showing us that through our Faith in God and doing only outwardly good things that one must sacrafice. We do not have to sacrafice our selfs through blood, as he did that for us all.

Works of the Lord, or works of the righteous are to be of charity in any possible form at every possible obvious opportunity. It only pertains to work and monetary or resourse compensation to the limit of providing for one's family, as this I'd integral for productive survival. Yes, Jesus was Crist, putting the pain and suffering of the world on his shoulders. The negative things that were said and done to him had no affect due to his constant, pure state of Crist. He was very committed to the path of the Lord which he knew was right regardless of what happened around, or to him.

Yeah, why did you skip 20? That's not misleading at all.
21 is saying that Jesus represented sin for us, and that we are supposed to represent rightiousness for him. For for the sake of God.

Yeah, I really don't aprechiate you knowingly manipulating things of this nature. Why not 1-7?

The parts you quoted mean;
My pupil and blood through Crist, only do selfless, good things in the name of God the creator, and Jesus our Lord. You most straighten who speaks the skewed word. Do not get fought up with fairytales, or records of geneology, because that is not the correct point of focus. Follow the feeling that you know is right inside. Needless direction makes for needless questioning. Go in the obvious path that has been shown and is verified as truth in you from God.

This is fun, can we do some more? Thank you.

heir
July 28th, 2015, 08:21 PM
Heir,

1) Exactly. And that is the message we are to follow."Exactly" what? What is the gospel of your salvation?


2) The works of Crist are not finished. You have been misinformed. They most certainly are and we are complete in Him and identified with Him!

Colossians 2:9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

Colossians 2:10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:

Colossians 2:11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:

Colossians 2:12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

Colossians 2:13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

Colossians 2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

Colossians 2:15 And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.


Works of the Lord, or works of the righteous are to be of charity in any possible form at every possible obvious opportunity. Charity would never tell someone that Christ's work is not finished where salvation is concerned!


Yeah, why did you skip 20? That's not misleading at all.
21 is saying that Jesus represented sin for us, and that we are supposed to represent rightiousness for him. For for the sake of God.
LOL I don't think YOU are an ambassador for Christ, that's why I didn't bother putting verse 20 in, but here you go.

2 Corinthians 5:20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.

Verse 21 clearly states that He (God the Father) hath made Him (God the Son), who knew no sin to be sin for us that we might be made the righteousness of God in Him!

2 Corinthians 5:21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

There's nothing that you or I can do to make ourselves righteous. So how is it that we can be made the righteousness of God in Him? The righteousness is not ours, but the righteousness of God which is by faith OF Jesus Christ! It is available unto all and upon all them that believe!

Romans 3:21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;

Romans 3:22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

I have it upon me. Do you have it upon you?



Yeah, I really don't aprechiate you knowingly manipulating things of this nature. Why not 1-7?
I haven't "manipulated" anything. And please learn to wrap quotes.

popsthebuilder
July 28th, 2015, 09:19 PM
heir,

Thank you for the opportunity.

Colossians 2:9-15
His body is full to the brim with The Crist consciousness. You are completely as one with the Lord. And your direction is that of which should be implemented in places of power. You being a Gentile are circumsized by your connection with the Lord. You have been cleared of your past sin by removing it from you through Crist.
You were baptised through the death of Jesus. God has awakened you as he awoke Jesus from the dead. Through your sin and inhearent evil without the law, and now your direction in Crist your physical life has been shortened, for you will have paid your price in full early. It is you who will sift through the discrepancies of the scripture for the good of other Gentiles. Because of your excessive sin and the direction you have found in the Lord, you will be able to read the books as they are meant. And pin the lies of said scriptures on the RCC whom are wholly responsable.
And whoever refutes your obvious clarity through texts that has been shown to you through Crist will only refute for short, and your obvious right will shine through, and be obvious.

Corinthians2:5:20
We are the representatives of Crist. We have been sought out by God. We preach the trueth about Crist in place of Jesus so that you may regain your connection to God through Crist.

Romans3:21-22
Your pure direction under God will be seen and confirmed by the Israelites( Jewish/Muslim). Even the truly Faithful of Christians will not refute your obvious direction under God in which you state that all true believers of the one God are the same.

Thank you very much again, for the opportunity. All praise is to God.

serpentdove
July 28th, 2015, 09:37 PM
...In addition to serpentdove's reference to 1 Corinthians 6:9-10, there is Hebrews 10:26: "For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins."

Pray (Ro 9:2-3, Col. 1:9–12).

heir
July 28th, 2015, 09:50 PM
In addition to serpentdove's reference to 1 Corinthians 6:9-10, I submit 1 Corinthians 6:11 KJV!
there is Hebrews 10:26: "For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins."Hebrews is not written TO members of the Body of Christ.

As to us: 2 Corinthians 5:19 KJV and Colossians 2:13 KJV

heir
July 28th, 2015, 09:52 PM
heir,

Thank you for the opportunity.

Colossians 2:9-15
His body is full to the brim with The Crist consciousness. You are completely as one with the Lord. And your direction is that of which should be implemented in places of power. You being a Gentile are circumsized by your connection with the Lord. You have been cleared of your past sin by removing it from you through Crist.
You were baptised through the death of Jesus. God has awakened you as he awoke Jesus from the dead. Through your sin and inhearent evil without the law, and now your direction in Crist your physical life has been shortened, for you will have paid your price in full early. It is you who will sift through the discrepancies of the scripture for the good of other Gentiles. Because of your excessive sin and the direction you have found in the Lord, you will be able to read the books as they are meant. And pin the lies of said scriptures on the RCC whom are wholly responsable.
And whoever refutes your obvious clarity through texts that has been shown to you through Crist will only refute for short, and your obvious right will shine through, and be obvious.

Corinthians2:5:20
We are the representatives of Crist. We have been sought out by God. We preach the trueth about Crist in place of Jesus so that you may regain your connection to God through Crist.

Romans3:21-22
Your pure direction under God will be seen and confirmed by the Israelites( Jewish/Muslim). Even the truly Faithful of Christians will not refute your obvious direction under God in which you state that all true believers of the one God are the same.

Thank you very much again, for the opportunity. All praise is to God.:AMR:

popsthebuilder
July 28th, 2015, 09:56 PM
:AMR:
What?

popsthebuilder
July 28th, 2015, 10:01 PM
Was that your response? Because I don't understand it if it is. What is amr?

turbosixx
July 29th, 2015, 05:34 AM
Way to dodge the question.

People were saved by faith in the LORD. The whole OT is looking forward to Jesus. Abraham looked forward to His day and rejoiced. It's always been by faith.

Sorry, my intention is not to dodge but to challenge our thinking.

Yes, I agree they were saved by being faithful and Jesus' blood was applied to those who were faithful. What i would suggest is, when we read notice how one is determined to be faithful or unfaithful.

turbosixx
July 29th, 2015, 05:39 AM
No. Not at all. Contrary to popular belief due to manipulation by the RCC, the fact that Crist is a state of being is nearly unknown by cristians today. This way of being was taught by Jesus the Crist. Or the son of God. The traditional concept of the trinity is false. And an attempt by the RRC to decapitate, or neuter the Crist consciousness. It has worked thus far as most people on this very board will be wholly enraged when they read this post.

Look up Christology, asceticism, Crist,

Upon the crucifixion of the one true son of God, the Romans and pagans destroyed most proof of what is known as Crist and the way to accomplish a true unity with God. Arius was one of the first practitioners that I know of who had an influence on original Christology, so asceticism.
Thank you for your ears. I mean no disrespect whatsoever.

No disrespect takin, I'm hear to challenge and be challenged.

turbosixx
July 29th, 2015, 05:40 AM
Because they continue not in His kindness. That's not faith. Most think faith (pistis) is hope/trust (elpis). It's not.

I agree, that's how I see it. I want to know where the dividing line is. I can fool myself but that doesn't change were the line is.

turbosixx
July 30th, 2015, 05:24 AM
Romans 2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:

Romans 2:15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness,



Let me see if I understand you correctly. Your going to pick out part of a single verse were Paul says "are a law unto themselves" and determine based on that, when Pauls says "of the law" in the book of Romans he is NOT talking about the law of Moses.

serpentdove
August 3rd, 2015, 12:06 PM
watch out for sleazy comments.:noway: The apostle Paul was concerned about remaining qualified for the kingdom (1 Co 9:27). He had integrity. :Plain:

eddie17
August 3rd, 2015, 12:28 PM
To be fair if your saved and all you are doing is saying "im ok im saved" then i question your walk,because if you are not moved or at unrest that his children are everywhere in the streets and starving.And you are doing nothing at all for them,then i dont know how you can sleep.

heir
August 3rd, 2015, 12:43 PM
:noway: The apostle Paul was concerned about remaining qualified for the kingdom (1 Co 9:27). He had integrity. :Plain:Paul was talking about running a race for the prize/as in reward for keeping the faith and not wavering (1 Corinthians 3:10-15 KJV, 1 Corinthians 9:24-25 KJV, 2 Timothy 4:7-8 KJV).

serpentdove
August 3rd, 2015, 02:26 PM
[The apostle Paul was concerned about remaining qualified for the kingdom (1 Co 9:27). He had integrity.] Paul was talking about running a race for the prize/as in reward for keeping the faith and not wavering...

None of the challenging portions of the bible apply to you. :Shimei:

See:

Apostasy & Eternal Security (http://vananne.com/applesofgold/Apostasy%20and%20Eternal%20Security.pdf)

Bright Raven
August 3rd, 2015, 02:34 PM
Yes, faith is how we are saved but not by faith without works.
Do you believe it RC?

Ephesians 2:8-9 King James Version (KJV)

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

turbosixx
August 3rd, 2015, 03:20 PM
Do you believe it RC?

Ephesians 2:8-9 King James Version (KJV)

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

I'm not sure what RC is.

That verse says we are saved by faith and not by works. It doesn't say faith without works.

Bright Raven
August 3rd, 2015, 03:22 PM
I'm not sure what RC is.

That verse says we are saved by faith and not by works. It doesn't say faith without works.

It is Republican Chick. So you believe it is a combination of the two?

turbosixx
August 3rd, 2015, 03:28 PM
It is Republican Chick. So you believe it is a combination of the two?

I only know what I read in scripture.


1 Jn. 1:6 If we say that we have fellowship with Him and yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth;
James 2:24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

glorydaz
August 3rd, 2015, 04:15 PM
Let me see if I understand you correctly. Your going to pick out part of a single verse were Paul says "are a law unto themselves" and determine based on that, when Pauls says "of the law" in the book of Romans he is NOT talking about the law of Moses.

Uh, no. Paul mentions the Gentiles having the work of the law written on their conscience. Why did you leave out that part? Paul doesn't exclude Gentiles (who were not given the law of Moses). They did, however, have their God-given conscience that told them right from wrong. That eternal law of God that holds every man accountable.


Romans 3:28-29 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law. Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also:

glorydaz
August 3rd, 2015, 04:24 PM
That verse says we are saved by faith and not by works. It doesn't say faith without works.



Not by works...not of yourself. Don't try to sneak works into what is a GIFT from God. Man's works of righteousness are as filthy rags and certainly nothing to boast of. Never ever claim man earns his salvation by his own blood, sweat or tears. That is grave error. ALL glory is to go to the Lord Jesus Christ.


Titus 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

turbosixx
August 3rd, 2015, 05:38 PM
Not by works...not of yourself. Don't try to sneak works into what is a GIFT from God. Man's works of righteousness are as filthy rags and certainly nothing to boast of. Never ever claim man earns his salvation by his own blood, sweat or tears. That is grave error. ALL glory is to go to the Lord Jesus Christ.


Titus 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

I agree, our works are filthy rags and by them we can not earn salvation. That is why it's a gift, but we must have them.

1 Jn. 2:4 The one who says, "I have come to know Him," and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him;
This is what it looks like to not be working.

2:5 but whoever keeps His word, in him the love of God has truly been perfected. By this we know that we are in Him:
How do we know we are in Him, if we have works.

turbosixx
August 3rd, 2015, 05:41 PM
Uh, no. Paul mentions the Gentiles having the work of the law written on their conscience. Why did you leave out that part? Paul doesn't exclude Gentiles (who were not given the law of Moses). They did, however, have their God-given conscience that told them right from wrong. That eternal law of God that holds every man accountable.


Romans 3:28-29 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law. Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also:

They did not have the law (of Moses) but had the "work of the law"(Moses) written on their hearts. What law is he talking about? He is talking about the same law.

Right Divider
August 3rd, 2015, 07:09 PM
I agree, our works are filthy rags and by them we can not earn salvation. That is why it's a gift, but we must have them.

1 Jn. 2:4 The one who says, "I have come to know Him," and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him;
This is what it looks like to not be working.

2:5 but whoever keeps His word, in him the love of God has truly been perfected. By this we know that we are in Him:
How do we know we are in Him, if we have works.
You are a double-minded person.

Either works COUNT or the DON'T!

turbosixx
August 4th, 2015, 06:32 AM
You are a double-minded person.

Either works COUNT or the DON'T!

Tell me why the one talent man was cast into Hell.

turbosixx
August 4th, 2015, 06:47 AM
Man's works of righteousness are as filthy rags and certainly nothing to boast of.

But are we saved without them?

Luke 17:10 So you too, when you do all the things which are commanded you, say, 'We are unworthy slaves; we have done only that which we ought to have done.'"

turbosixx
August 4th, 2015, 06:48 AM
You are a double-minded person.

Either works COUNT or the DON'T!

Does sin count?

PneumaPsucheSoma
August 4th, 2015, 08:16 AM
This isn't difficult...

Works are not part of the Ordo Salutis (order of salvation), which is by faith and grace.

THEN... As we live this life in the flesh (BY the faith of the Son of God), that living faith (by which we have access into the grace wherein we STAND), will result in works in this life that are befitting the standard of God's righteousness for character and conduct.

With salvific faith, works OF faith will be inevitable. A good tree bears good fruit.

Somewhere, both "sides" have missed it in their respective emphases.

Right Divider
August 4th, 2015, 08:21 AM
Tell me why the one talent man was cast into Hell.
That has NOTHING to do with the gospel of the grace of God.

BUT, I would say that is was because he had NO FAITH!

Right Divider
August 4th, 2015, 08:23 AM
Does sin count?
NOPE! Dealt with at the CROSS!

turbosixx
August 4th, 2015, 08:26 AM
That has NOTHING to do with the gospel of the grace of God.

Then what is the point of this parable?


BUT, I would say that is was because he had NO FAITH!



How was his NO FAITH made evident?

turbosixx
August 4th, 2015, 08:28 AM
NOPE! Dealt with at the CROSS!

This is what Paul told CHRISTIANS.

1 Cor. 6:9 Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, 10 nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God.

turbosixx
August 4th, 2015, 08:32 AM
This isn't difficult...

Works are not part of the Ordo Salutis (order of salvation), which is by faith and grace.

THEN... As we live this life in the flesh (BY the faith of the Son of God), that living faith (by which we have access into the grace wherein we STAND), will result in works in this life that are befitting the standard of God's righteousness for character and conduct.

With salvific faith, works OF faith will be inevitable. A good tree bears good fruit.

Somewhere, both "sides" have missed it in their respective emphases.

I agree, but that isn't faith alone as many are being told and believe.

How do we KNOW we are saved?
1 Jn. 2:3 By this we know that we have come to know Him, if we keep His commandments.

PneumaPsucheSoma
August 4th, 2015, 10:39 AM
I agree, but that isn't faith alone as many are being told and believe.

How do we KNOW we are saved?
1 Jn. 2:3 By this we know that we have come to know Him, if we keep His commandments.

Sure it's faith "alone", but salvation includes living that faith. Salvation is not contingent upon works, instead meaning works OF faith are inevitable.

The MADers are just prone to an almost taunting style of blatant disregard for works in their discussion. They're just coming against salvation BY works, and don't express it very well.

Salvation is a state of being, not just an initial event. They're not good at saying such things.

Right Divider
August 4th, 2015, 10:59 AM
Then what is the point of this parable?
So... apparently.... according to turbosixx logic, if a parable does not have the application that turbosixx thinks that it does, then it has no point.


How was his NO FAITH made evident?
By his actions or lack thereof. And, ONCE AGAIN, this does NOT show that works are required to receive the FREE GIFT. Otherwise what Jesus did on the CROSS is not enough.

Right Divider
August 4th, 2015, 11:04 AM
This is what Paul told CHRISTIANS.

1 Cor. 6:9 Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, 10 nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God.
Read the WHOLE thing Bible Chopper.

1 Cor. 6-8-11 KJV
8 Nay, ye do wrong, and defraud, and that your brethren. 9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, 10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

republicanchick
August 4th, 2015, 11:19 AM
Not by works...not of yourself. Don't try to sneak works into what is a GIFT from God. Man's works of righteousness are as filthy rags a Ghost;[/INDENT]

how much filthier it is, then,

to have no works at all..

Please see St James 2:14 and other psgs..


Faith without works is dead


+

turbosixx
August 4th, 2015, 11:26 AM
Sure it's faith "alone", but salvation includes living that faith. Salvation is not contingent upon works, instead meaning works OF faith are inevitable.

The MADers are just prone to an almost taunting style of blatant disregard for works in their discussion. They're just coming against salvation BY works, and don't express it very well.

Salvation is a state of being, not just an initial event. They're not good at saying such things.

"salvation includes living that faith"
That is not "faith alone", that is faith that works which is what I believe.

Here is what the bible says about "faith alone".

James 2:24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

I believe what it says.

turbosixx
August 4th, 2015, 11:29 AM
Read the WHOLE thing Bible Chopper.

1 Cor. 6-8-11 KJV
8 Nay, ye do wrong, and defraud, and that your brethren. 9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, 10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

Then why the warning to CHRISTIANS?

9 Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, 10 nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God.

They already know non-Christians will not inherit the kingdom of God.

republicanchick
August 4th, 2015, 11:35 AM
When someone asked Jesus what he must do to be saved

He said

Obey the commandmnets

then he said If you want to be perfect, sell what you have, giv to the poor and follow Me

lots of DOING involved there, eh?



_____

turbosixx
August 4th, 2015, 11:35 AM
By his actions or lack thereof. And, ONCE AGAIN, this does NOT show that works are required to receive the FREE GIFT. Otherwise what Jesus did on the CROSS is not enough.

That 's right, he didn't do something but the others did. I guess we see the same point.

Luke 17:10 So you too, when you do all the things which are commanded you, say, 'We are unworthy slaves; we have done only that which we ought to have done.'"

Even when we do as commanded we are still unworthy, that is why we receive grace. Jesus did for us what we could not do for ourselves. Are there things we can do? Did Jesus do it all and we are free to live as we choose?

1 Jn. 2:4 The one who says, "I have come to know Him," and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him;

Right Divider
August 4th, 2015, 11:46 AM
Then why the warning to CHRISTIANS?

9 Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, 10 nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God.

They already know non-Christians will not inherit the kingdom of God.
I guess that it's there so people like you can make false claims about it.

It's about behavior and NOT salvation (i.e., eternal life).

Right Divider
August 4th, 2015, 11:50 AM
That 's right, he didn't do something but the others did. I guess we see the same point.

Luke 17:10 So you too, when you do all the things which are commanded you, say, 'We are unworthy slaves; we have done only that which we ought to have done.'"

Even when we do as commanded we are still unworthy, that is why we receive grace. Jesus did for us what we could not do for ourselves. Are there things we can do? Did Jesus do it all and we are free to live as we choose?

1 Jn. 2:4 The one who says, "I have come to know Him," and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him;

Saved BY grace THEN walk in good works.

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Works count for NOTHING UNTIL one is saved.

turbosixx
August 4th, 2015, 11:57 AM
Saved BY grace THEN walk in good works.

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Works count for NOTHING UNTIL one is saved.

That's the way I understand it.

turbosixx
August 4th, 2015, 12:01 PM
I guess that it's there so people like you can make false claims about it.

Strange reason for the Holy Spirit to put that in there.


It's about behavior and NOT salvation (i.e., eternal life).

So a Christian can be an adulterer and still receive eternal life?

Right Divider
August 4th, 2015, 12:16 PM
That's the way I understand it.
So you NOW understand that salvation is by grace apart from works?

Right Divider
August 4th, 2015, 12:20 PM
Strange reason for the Holy Spirit to put that in there.



So a Christian can be an adulterer and still receive eternal life?
I don't think that a believer would remain in blatant continuous sin.

turbosixx
August 4th, 2015, 12:25 PM
So you NOW understand that salvation is by grace apart from works?

That is not what I agreed to.

James 2:24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

turbosixx
August 4th, 2015, 12:27 PM
I don't think that a believer would remain in blatant continuous sin.

What is your understanding of a believer?

j4jesus09
August 4th, 2015, 12:27 PM
Yes of course there is more than just believing in Jesus. The majority of churches are led to believe in a Jesus that satisfies the lust of the world, self gratification and gaining success in this world. The bible has a great way of preaching the real belief of Christ, like a hidden message to our spirits and hearts that Sunday teaching can't soley provide. So therefore the belief in Jesus is only partial. God is able though.

glorydaz
August 4th, 2015, 12:31 PM
But are we saved without them?

Luke 17:10 So you too, when you do all the things which are commanded you, say, 'We are unworthy slaves; we have done only that which we ought to have done.'"

Let me put it this way....We are not the ONE. The gift of righteousness we receive was through the obedience of the Lord Jesus Christ. If you think of yourself as Lord, keep preaching what you're preaching. But....you won't be saved with the "good news" that YOU must perform anything.


Romans 5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

j4jesus09
August 4th, 2015, 12:33 PM
What is your understanding of a believer?

The answer was kind of given in the statement made. A believer would not stay in blatant sin. That is one sign of a believer. He believes in forsaking sin. Because the bible tells me so. :)

glorydaz
August 4th, 2015, 12:40 PM
Sure it's faith "alone", but salvation includes living that faith. Salvation is not contingent upon works, instead meaning works OF faith are inevitable.

The MADers are just prone to an almost taunting style of blatant disregard for works in their discussion. They're just coming against salvation BY works, and don't express it very well.

Salvation is a state of being, not just an initial event. They're not good at saying such things.

Like you are? :rotfl:

Unfortunately, if you give a worker an inch, he'll take a mile. There is something in man that insists on taking some of the glory that belongs to God alone. It's known as the pride of life.

So, we refuse to give room to boasting in something that will only lead to more and more pride. The "works" that follow salvation are NOT our own. We don't get saved by our works and our works don't keep us saved. They certainly can get in the way of the work God is doing through us....because we can't resist trying to steal some of the glory.

Just read the posts on this thread and see how impossible it is for people to give up the idea that God is doing the work in us. So, don't be saying we don't know how to explain where "works" come into the picture.


Philippians 1:6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:

j4jesus09
August 4th, 2015, 12:44 PM
Like you are? :rotfl:

Unfortunately, if you give a worker an inch, he'll take a mile. There is something in man that insists on taking some of the glory that belongs to God alone. It's known as the pride of life.

So, we refuse to give room to boasting in something that will only lead to more and more pride. The "works" that follow salvation are NOT our own. We don't get saved by our works and our works don't keep us saved. They certainly can get in the way of the work God is doing through us....because we can't resist trying to steal some of the glory.

Just read the posts on this thread and see how impossible it is for people to give up the idea that God is doing the work in us. So, don't be saying we don't know how to explain where "works" come into the picture.


Philippians 1:6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:


Yep,

Philippians 2:13
13For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure. :)

turbosixx
August 4th, 2015, 12:44 PM
Let me put it this way....We are not the ONE. The gift of righteousness we receive was through the obedience of the Lord Jesus Christ. If you think of yourself as Lord, keep preaching what you're preaching. But....you won't be saved with the "good news" that YOU must perform anything.


Romans 5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

James 2:24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

glorydaz
August 4th, 2015, 12:44 PM
So a Christian can be an adulterer and still receive eternal life?


Matt. 5:28 But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.

turbosixx
August 4th, 2015, 12:48 PM
The answer was kind of given in the statement made. A believer would not stay in blatant sin. That is one sign of a believer. He believes in forsaking sin. Because the bible tells me so. :)

If one is not practicing sin, then they are keeping the commandments. That is not "faith alone", but faith that works which makes sense from what I read.

Rom. 11:22 Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God's kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off.

turbosixx
August 4th, 2015, 12:50 PM
Let me put it this way....We are not the ONE. The gift of righteousness we receive was through the obedience of the Lord Jesus Christ. If you think of yourself as Lord, keep preaching what you're preaching. But....you won't be saved with the "good news" that YOU must perform anything.


Romans 5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

I agree, Jesus paid the price that we could not pay.

glorydaz
August 4th, 2015, 12:51 PM
That is not what I agreed to.

James 2:24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

Are you in the flesh or in the Spirit? Can you understand what Paul says here?


Romans 4:1 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?

Romans 4:2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.


Romans 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

glorydaz
August 4th, 2015, 12:53 PM
I agree, Jesus paid the price that we could not pay.

Then why do you continue to claim you must pay it? Or even that you can in any way perform the doing of it?

glorydaz
August 4th, 2015, 12:54 PM
If one is not practicing sin, then they are keeping the commandments. That is not "faith alone", but faith that works which makes sense from what I read.

Rom. 11:22 Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God's kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off.

That verse is talking about nations....Israel vs. Gentile. Nothing there about one's personal salvation.

glorydaz
August 4th, 2015, 12:58 PM
Read the WHOLE thing Bible Chopper.

1 Cor. 6-8-11 KJV
8 Nay, ye do wrong, and defraud, and that your brethren. 9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, 10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

Have you gotten a response on this? I won't be surprised if it's ignored. Doubt is truly the largest and thickest pair of blinders ever made. :nono:

j4jesus09
August 4th, 2015, 01:02 PM
If one is not practicing sin, then they are keeping the commandments. That is not "faith alone", but faith that works which makes sense from what I read.

Rom. 11:22 Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God's kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off.

True, but through proper faith expressed in your works you are keeping the whole law. Faith alone produces the works. I think the issue with works is people are examining the works to see what the faith is and that's okay. One should. If the works are not expressing the proper faith then one would question what their faith is in. Overally, faith is the only thing that saves us. The proper faith produces proper works. :) Does this make since. We can't do any good though without God.

Romans 3:28&31
28Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.
31Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

turbosixx
August 4th, 2015, 01:12 PM
Then why do you continue to claim you must pay it? Or even that you can in any way perform the doing of it?

I'm trying to see it your way but when I see who the bible says is saved and those who are not, it always comes down to what the person did, good or bad. For example, remember these are Christians that are being addressed:

Rev. 3:4 But you have a few people in Sardis who have not soiled their garments; and they will walk with Me in white, for they are worthy.


Col. 1:22 yet He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death, in order to present you before Him holy and blameless and beyond reproach- 23 if indeed YOU continue in the faith firmly established and steadfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel that you have heard,

Even after believing, we still have free will.

glorydaz
August 4th, 2015, 01:16 PM
The answer was kind of given in the statement made. A believer would not stay in blatant sin. That is one sign of a believer. He believes in forsaking sin. Because the bible tells me so. :)

It's because of that "operation of God".


Colossians 2:11-12
In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

God "worketh in you"...both to will and do His good pleasure.


2 Corinthians 5:17
Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

Philippians 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

turbosixx
August 4th, 2015, 01:17 PM
True, but through proper faith expressed in your works you are keeping the whole law. Faith alone produces the works. I think the issue with works is people are examining the works to see what the faith is and that's okay. One should. If the works are not expressing the proper faith then one would question what their faith is in. Overally, faith is the only thing that saves us. The proper faith produces proper works. :) Does this make since. We can't do any good though without God.

Romans 3:28&31
28Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.
31Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

What law is Paul talking about?

j4jesus09
August 4th, 2015, 01:27 PM
What law is Paul talking about?

He is speaking of the law of Moses. Which was observance of deeds only for salvation. Basically, a man can work his way into heaven. Paul said no sir, faith is the only way to be saved not by our works.