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republicanchick
July 23rd, 2015, 03:43 PM
If you sincerely follow the Holy Spirit, He will lead you to the Catholic Church

You may have an aversion to the Roman Catholic Church, don't want to go there, heard so many odd and unkosher sounding things about it..

But you will nonetheless be led there b/c that is part of Christendom...

and if you study history of the Church (from reliable sources) you will learn more and more about this historic Church, THE Church... (but you don't believe that yet) and you will learn more and more and

well...

2 words

Scott Hahn

(Why re-invent the wheel? He has done all the research for you)

He was once anti-Catholic, but he, unlike most anti-Catholics here, STUDIED... and studied and studied... He studied so that he could prove Catholicism was WRONG... but he could not do that...

He has read literally THOUSANDS of books on theology... by Catholics and non-Catholics..

and most of you know what happened..


___

higherlevel energy
July 23rd, 2015, 04:06 PM
I don't think Catholics are wrong. We all are different, but we have a common denominator in Jesus.

republicanchick
July 23rd, 2015, 04:23 PM
I don't think Catholics are wrong. We all are different, but we have a common denominator in Jesus.

hey, that is a refreshing comment...

don't hear that kinda thing much around here... mostly it's just catholic bashing on steroids..


:doh:
:sigh:
:argue:
:rain:


:cheers:


+

CherubRam
July 23rd, 2015, 04:31 PM
Tell me another bed time story mommy.:chuckle:

oatmeal
July 23rd, 2015, 04:33 PM
If you sincerely follow the Holy Spirit, He will lead you to the Catholic Church

You may have an aversion to the Roman Catholic Church, don't want to go there, heard so many odd and unkosher sounding things about it..

But you will nonetheless be led there b/c that is part of Christendom...

and if you study history of the Church (from reliable sources) you will learn more and more about this historic Church, THE Church... (but you don't believe that yet) and you will learn more and more and

well...

2 words

Scott Hahn

(Why re-invent the wheel? He has done all the research for you)

He was once anti-Catholic, but he, unlike most anti-Catholics here, STUDIED... and studied and studied... He studied so that he could prove Catholicism was WRONG... but he could not do that...

He has read literally THOUSANDS of books on theology... by Catholics and non-Catholics..

and most of you know what happened..


___

So, show me from scripture why I should believe your post whatsoever.

meshak
July 23rd, 2015, 05:03 PM
hey, that is a refreshing comment...

Your OP is clearly indicating RCC is the church, not any other denomination.

PneumaPsucheSoma
July 23rd, 2015, 05:07 PM
hey, that is a refreshing comment...

don't hear that kinda thing much around here... mostly it's just catholic bashing on steroids..


:doh:
:sigh:
:argue:
:rain:


:cheers:


+

Like all the Protestant bashing from antichrist Cathode-Licks...

Nice double standard, cracker girlie.

Cruciform
July 23rd, 2015, 05:49 PM
Tell me another bed time story mommy.:chuckle:
Once upon a time, in the 16th century A.D., some prideful and arrogant men denied and rejected that one historic Church founded by Jesus Christ himself---and against which he declared that the powers of death would never prevail (Mt. 16:18)---and invented their own doctrines and sects based upon their personal, subjective, and entirely non-authoritative reading of the Bible. Since then, tens-of-thousands of competing and contradictory man-made non-Catholic sects have been concocted, categorically violating the will and plan of God, and implicitly claiming that Jesus Christ himself is a liar. The end.


Not a very happy story, is it.



Gaudium de veritate,

Cruciform
+T+

Cruciform
July 23rd, 2015, 05:51 PM
Your OP is clearly indicating RCC is the church, not any other denomination.
That's correct.

meshak
July 23rd, 2015, 08:28 PM
That's correct.

You clearly avoiding my point. I was only pointing out her hypocritical comment.

Bradley D
July 23rd, 2015, 09:04 PM
One needs to read the Bible and then the doctrine of a denominations church. If it has questionable beliefs or practices. Then one needs to make a decision whether to join a particular church or not. I believe there are good Christians in the Catholic Church. But I do not agree with all their doctrine/beliefs.

Cruciform
July 23rd, 2015, 10:27 PM
You clearly avoiding my point.
No, I was agreeing with your point, that the "Catholic Church is the Church, not any other denomination."*






__________
*Note, however, that the Catholic Church does not actually qualify as a "denomination" since it is the original Church founded by Christ, and all denominations therefore derive from it.

heir
July 23rd, 2015, 10:34 PM
If you sincerely follow the Holy Spirit, He will lead you to the Catholic ChurchIf a spirit is leading one to the Catholic church, it's a seducing spirit!

1 Timothy 4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;

Those who nameth the name of Christ should depart from iniquity and that includes the Catholic church or any other denomination.

2 Timothy 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

1Mind1Spirit
July 23rd, 2015, 10:47 PM
If a spirit is leading one to the Catholic church, it's a seducing spirit!

1 Timothy 4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;

Those who nameth the name of Christ should depart from iniquity and that includes the Catholic church or any other denomination.

2 Timothy 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

Took the words right outta my mouth:) :chuckle:

republicanchick
July 24th, 2015, 12:58 PM
So, show me from scripture why I should believe your post whatsoever.

you wouldn't listen if i did


__

republicanchick
July 24th, 2015, 12:59 PM
Your OP is clearly indicating RCC is the church, not any other denomination.

Christ founded ONE Church. Believe it or not, God is not the author of confusion (60,000 denominations...)

That Church, the only one that has been around since the Ascension is the Roman Catholic Church



__

SaulToPaul
July 24th, 2015, 01:06 PM
He has read literally THOUSANDS of books on theology... by Catholics and non-Catholics..



If only he had spent that much time studying & believing every word of the Bible.

1Mind1Spirit
July 24th, 2015, 01:34 PM
Christ founded ONE Church. Believe it or not, God is not the author of confusion (60,000 denominations...)

That Church, the only one that has been around since the Ascension is the Roman Catholic Church



__

Nope the Roman Catholic emulation began at Corinth and was denounced by the FIRST BISHOP at Rome whose name was Clement.

1Mind1Spirit
July 24th, 2015, 01:36 PM
If only he had spent that much time studying & believing every word of the Bible.

:first:

Course them Tim LaHaye fables aint did you any favors.

Pot callin' kettle black? ;)

republicanchick
July 24th, 2015, 01:38 PM
Nope the Roman Catholic emulation began at Corinth and was denounced by the FIRST BISHOP at Rome whose name was Clement.

geeze.. i wonder where people get their information..

But whatever. I know the Catholic Church (dont just beieve but KNOW) is the Church Christ founded and history "agrees"

if u poeple want to be ignorant all your life and deprived of all that Jesus has for you, that is YOUR choice

I won't try to talk you out of it.. I know a losing battle when i see it



+

SaulToPaul
July 24th, 2015, 01:58 PM
:first:

Course them Tim LaHaye fables aint did you any favors.

Pot callin' kettle black? ;)

Haven't read them. Have you?

republicanchick
July 24th, 2015, 01:59 PM
If u poeple want to be deprived of all that Jesus has for you, that is YOUR choice




+

1Mind1Spirit
July 24th, 2015, 02:09 PM
Haven't read them. Have you?

Nope, just his revelation unveiled launch pad for the Left Behind series.

Course he has books written in the 60's which was in the churches who have taught you Dispensationism.

SOOOO, let's just say you should have applied that to those who taught you.

SaulToPaul
July 24th, 2015, 02:10 PM
Course he has books written in the 60's which was in the churches who have taught you Dispensationism.



Which churches taught me?

1Mind1Spirit
July 24th, 2015, 02:21 PM
Which churches taught me?

Same ones that taught you to like that little rapture smiley. :rapture::chuckle:

SaulToPaul
July 24th, 2015, 02:22 PM
Same ones that taught you to like that little rapture smiley. :rapture::chuckle:

I read about the catching up in scripture. I grew up in a Wesleyan church where I never heard of it.

1Mind1Spirit
July 24th, 2015, 02:24 PM
I read about the catching up in scripture. I grew up in a Wesleyan church where I never heard of it.

So?

Robert Pate
July 24th, 2015, 04:34 PM
Once upon a time, in the 16th century A.D., some prideful and arrogant men denied and rejected that one historic Church founded by Jesus Christ himself---and against which he declared that the powers of death would never prevail (Mt. 16:18)---and invented their own doctrines and sects based upon their personal, subjective, and entirely non-authoritative reading of the Bible. Since then, tens-of-thousands of competing and contradictory man-made non-Catholic sects have been concocted, categorically violating the will and plan of God, and implicitly claiming that Jesus Christ himself is a liar. The end.


Not a very happy story, is it.



Gaudium de veritate,

Cruciform
+T+


The Bible does not say anything about a church in Rome.

Seeing how the Bible is God's book, woudn't you think that there would be some little thing about a church in Rome?

JFish123
July 24th, 2015, 06:17 PM
If you follow the Spirit He will lead you to CHRIST, not an earthly organization or church.

Cruciform
July 25th, 2015, 11:48 AM
Seeing how the Bible is God's book, woudn't you think that there would be some little thing about a church in Rome?
Not necessarily, since I don't happen to buy into the 16th-century Protestant notion of sola scriptura (http://scripturecatholic.com/scripture_alone.html). :nono:

Cruciform
July 25th, 2015, 11:51 AM
If you follow the Spirit He will lead you to CHRIST, not an earthly organization or church.
And exactly how do you know (and not merely assume) that you are in fact "following the Spirit"?

RevTestament
July 25th, 2015, 01:33 PM
The Bible does not say anything about a church in Rome.

Seeing how the Bible is God's book, woudn't you think that there would be some little thing about a church in Rome?

Um..actually it does.
Rev 18:21 And a mighty angel took up a stone like a great millstone, and cast it into the sea, saying, Thus with violence shall that great city Babylon be thrown down, and shall be found no more at all.

22 And the voice of harpers, and musicians, and of pipers, and trumpeters, shall be heard no more at all in thee; and no craftsman, of whatsoever craft he be, shall be found any more in thee; and the sound of a millstone shall be heard no more at all in thee;

23 And the light of a candle shall shine no more at all in thee; and the voice of the bridegroom and of the bride shall be heard no more at all in thee: for thy merchants were the great men of the earth; for by thy sorceries were all nations deceived.

The church in this great city loses the bridegroom because she refused to repent of her apostasy.

RevTestament
July 25th, 2015, 01:48 PM
[FONT="Georgia"]Once upon a time, in the 16th century A.D., some prideful and arrogant men denied and rejected that one historic Church founded by Jesus Christ himself---and against which he declared that the powers of death would never prevail (Mt. 16:18)---and invented their own doctrines and sects based upon their personal, subjective, and entirely non-authoritative reading of the Bible.
I would like to present an alternative version of the story. Once upon a time there were men who saw that the power of death had prevailed upon the only church they knew, and had taught them to kill others who did not believe as them. They were tired of all the killing and persecution, and began to translate the scriptures into a language they could read, and found that the scriptures did not teach what the church was teaching, but taught them to love their enemies and teach them. So they tried to introduce reforms into the church in order to make the church more like Christ, but were forced to run for their very lives or be captured, prosecuted as heretics, and probably tortured to death.

Since then, tens-of-thousands of competing and contradictory man-made non-Catholic sects have been concocted, categorically violating the will and plan of God, and implicitly claiming that Jesus Christ himself is a liar. The end.Though the intent of these men was to reintroduce the true worship of God, and the true forgiveness of sins through his Son rather than by buying indulgences or visiting their local priest, they no longer knew the structure of the original church, so they went back as far as they could in the record to restore the original versions of the scriptures as best they could, and the "original" structure of the church. Unfortunately, the Nicene council did not represent the original structure of the church, but simply what was left after 3 centuries of persecution and underground worship. So they ended up being the daughters of this church rather than a restoration sanctioned by God.



Not a very happy story, is it.

That I agree with. Not a happy story at all. Men went through a lot of false teachings and persecution because of all the doctrines of men introduced over the millenia since Christ.

RevTestament
July 25th, 2015, 02:04 PM
[B][FONT="Book Antiqua"]If you sincerely follow the Holy Spirit, He will lead you to the Catholic Church

You may have an aversion to the Roman Catholic Church, don't want to go there, heard so many odd and unkosher sounding things about it..

But you will nonetheless be led there b/c that is part of Christendom...
Been there, done that. While I believe many Catholics are good people, and often better people than Protestants, that does not mean they represent the true church of God. While I believe the Jesuits gave me a good education, I must say I never particularly felt "the spirit" in the teachings of the Catholic church.


and if you study history of the Church (from reliable sources) you will learn more and more about this historic Church, THE Church... (but you don't believe that yet) and you will learn more and more and

well...
never, ever go back.
Yep, the more I learned on my own, the more I realized that the Catholic church took in the things of pagan religion in its effort to gain converts to Christianity until she no longer resembled the early church of The Way of Christ. From the time the bishop of Rome decided to accept the title of the pontifex maximus or chief of the Roman pagan college of pontiffs later held by the emperors, she had gone the way of earthly kings, and ruled according to men, rather than according to God....
The night had indeed arrived in which Jesus had said men could do no work, and it had only taken a few hundred years. But that is what happens when men on earth squabble over thrones and mitres. They still do not realize that the heavens do rule and not men on earth.

Cruciform
July 25th, 2015, 02:13 PM
I would like to present an alternative version of the story. Once upon a time there were men who saw that the power of death had prevailed upon the only church they knew...
Jesus Christ founded only one "Church" (Mt. 16:18; 1 Tim. 3:15)---not "churchES." Thus, if the powers of death did indeed prevail against Christ's one historic Church, Jesus must have been a liar (Prov. 19:5). Your assumption here has devastating consequences which simply cannot be avoided.



Gaudium de veritate,

Cruciform
+T+

RevTestament
July 25th, 2015, 02:38 PM
[FONT="Georgia"]Jesus Christ founded only one "Church" (Mt. 16:18; 1 Tim. 3:15)---not "churchES." Thus, if the powers of death did indeed prevail against Christ's one historic Church, Jesus must have been a liar (Prov. 19:5). Your assumption here has devastating consequences which simply cannot be avoided.

I don't see the kingdom Christ was talking about as being a temporal, earthly church. Indeed, He said my kingdom is not of this world. Further, the stone that was symbolized in Peter was the stone of revelation - hence the priests and elders of the church represented the stone - thus led men to the stone of Israel and the rock of our salvation. So have the gates of hell prevailed against His revelation? I say, no it hasn't. Even though Satan infiltrated His earthly church, it was all according to prophecy. You should rejoice that you live in this day and age when the truth is available in its fulness once again and the times of the restitution of all things is at hand as was prophesied in The Acts, and that the stone which smites the image is going forth. For such is the kingdom of God. You have a great opportunity to embrace more truth.

Cruciform
July 25th, 2015, 05:08 PM
I don't see the kingdom Christ was talking about as being a temporal, earthly church. Indeed, He said my kingdom is not of this world. Further, the stone that was symbolized in Peter was the stone of revelation - hence the priests and elders of the church represented the stone - thus led men to the stone of Israel and the rock of our salvation.
Categorically refuted here (http://www.philvaz.com/apologetics/PeterRockKeysPrimacyRome.htm) and here (http://scripturecatholic.com/the_church.html).

meshak
July 25th, 2015, 05:14 PM
No, I was agreeing with your point, that the "Catholic Church is the Church, not any other denomination."*






__________
*Note, however, that the Catholic Church does not actually qualify as a "denomination" since it is the original Church founded by Christ, and all denominations therefore derive from it.

I did not say RCC is the church.

RevTestament
July 25th, 2015, 05:50 PM
Categorically refuted here (http://www.philvaz.com/apologetics/PeterRockKeysPrimacyRome.htm) and here (http://scripturecatholic.com/the_church.html).

What He was saying is that my kingdom will be built upon prophecy and revelation that the gates of hell shall not defeat. As a stone of revelation Peter was prophesied to die in glory to the Father - a truth your church has lost, rather trying to emphasize a temporal tie to the authority of Peter. You can link to any other sites you want, but cannot refute this truth.

Cruciform
July 25th, 2015, 10:13 PM
What He was saying is that my kingdom will be built upon prophecy and revelation that the gates of hell shall not defeat. As a stone of revelation Peter was prophesied to die in glory to the Father - a truth your church has lost, rather trying to emphasize a temporal tie to the authority of Peter. You can link to any other sites you want, but cannot refute this truth.
Post #37

Cruciform
July 25th, 2015, 10:14 PM
I did not say RCC is the church.
Never mind.

Lon
July 25th, 2015, 10:51 PM
If you sincerely follow the Holy Spirit, He will lead you to the Catholic Church
...you will ... be led there b/c that is part of Christendom...


Deuteronomy 24:1-4 or 1 Corinthians 7 ?

The Reformation was a declaration that the RC was unfaithful and a call to her to come back to her first-love. Because those 95 infractions were upheld instead of repented of, the Reformation happened. It has been asked often on TOL "Who gave Martin Luther authority?" As a member of the Body, he had the power of that body to decry another's abuse of members of the same body. Roman 12:5 When it comes to disassociating with an abusive spouse, God gave grounds for divorce, though it is not what is desired/intended.

The Catholic church, imho, is a long way from rectifying and in regards to divorce, are unacceptable courting Reformed church members who belong to these institutions. It is like trying to 'remarry' those divorcees (read those scriptures). We weren't kidding about the Reformation. It doesn't matter to me 'who' you list, as a returnee, this is no precedence for a non-Catholic. Because you are Catholic, and much more, think like one, these kind of 'authority' maneuvers impress you, but it is precisely these that made the Reformation happen in the first place. It is odd to me that Catholics often try to court/draw Protestants ( it is rarely seen the other way around). For me to be 'drawn' to the RC would be a denial of the Reformation and it's more than legitimate complaint and separating event.

I embrace that divorce, because of abuse, as necessary and legitimate. That is the end of the story as far as I'm concerned.

oatmeal
July 26th, 2015, 03:10 PM
you wouldn't listen if i did


__

Well, if you concerned about other people's lives and salvation, it would seem most appropriate if you did.

God's Truth
July 26th, 2015, 03:46 PM
If you sincerely follow the Holy Spirit, He will lead you to the Catholic Church

You may have an aversion to the Roman Catholic Church, don't want to go there, heard so many odd and unkosher sounding things about it..

But you will nonetheless be led there b/c that is part of Christendom...

and if you study history of the Church (from reliable sources) you will learn more and more about this historic Church, THE Church... (but you don't believe that yet) and you will learn more and more and

well...

2 words

Scott Hahn

(Why re-invent the wheel? He has done all the research for you)

He was once anti-Catholic, but he, unlike most anti-Catholics here, STUDIED... and studied and studied... He studied so that he could prove Catholicism was WRONG... but he could not do that...

He has read literally THOUSANDS of books on theology... by Catholics and non-Catholics..

and most of you know what happened..


___

Catholics do not respect the written Word of God. Catholics think they can add to it with their Catechism.

The Catholic church went apostate from Jesus' teachings.

StanJ
July 26th, 2015, 04:17 PM
If you sincerely follow the Holy Spirit, He will lead you to the Catholic Church


Funny because when I was filled with the Holy Spirit, as a RC, it was IN a Pentecostal church where I was also saved. At that time (1971), this was NOT happening in the RCC, and it STILL doesn't.

Cruciform
July 26th, 2015, 06:41 PM
Catholics do not respect the written Word of God.
GT likes to confuse her preferred interpretations of the written word of God with "God's word" itself. No, Catholics simply do not respect GT's personal interpretations (opinions) of God's word. Big difference there.


Catholics think they can add to it with their Catechism.
No Catholic would claim that the Catechism is "Scripture," so we can hardly think that it "adds to Scripture." Try again.


The Catholic Church went apostate from Jesus' teachings.
Post the historical date and precise doctrine concerning which the Catholic Church supposedly "went apostate."



Gaudium de veritate,

Cruciform
+T+

Dan Emanuel
July 26th, 2015, 09:19 PM
The Bible does not say anything about a church in Rome.

Seeing how the Bible is God's book, woudn't you think that there would be some little thing about a church in Rome?The epistle to the Roman's.

Cough.


Daniel

Dan Emanuel
July 26th, 2015, 09:24 PM
Deuteronomy 24:1-4 or 1 Corinthians 7 ?

The Reformation was a declaration that the RC was unfaithful and a call to her to come back to her first-love. Because those 95 infractions were upheld instead of repented of, the Reformation happened. It has been asked often on TOL "Who gave Martin Luther authority?" As a member of the Body, he had the power of that body to decry another's abuse of members of the same body. Roman 12:5 When it comes to disassociating with an abusive spouse, God gave grounds for divorce, though it is not what is desired/intended.

The Catholic church, imho, is a long way from rectifying and in regards to divorce, are unacceptable courting Reformed church members who belong to these institutions. It is like trying to 'remarry' those divorcees (read those scriptures). We weren't kidding about the Reformation. It doesn't matter to me 'who' you list, as a returnee, this is no precedence for a non-Catholic. Because you are Catholic, and much more, think like one, these kind of 'authority' maneuvers impress you, but it is precisely these that made the Reformation happen in the first place. It is odd to me that Catholics often try to court/draw Protestants ( it is rarely seen the other way around). For me to be 'drawn' to the RC would be a denial of the Reformation and it's more than legitimate complaint and separating event.

I embrace that divorce, because of abuse, as necessary and legitimate. That is the end of the story as far as I'm concerned.Protestantism is definitely an interesting experiment. Lets start over, with just our Bible's to guide us.

'Fact is thats not how the actual Church started. The Bible (including the New Testament and the Greek Old Testament) was the Churches' idea. The Christian Bible is a product of the Church, not the other way around. So to "re-start" the Church based "solely" on the Bible, ought to lead you right back to the Church herself, if the Church did it right; and thats the point of the O.P.


Daniel

God's Truth
July 26th, 2015, 09:31 PM
GT likes to confuse her preferred interpretations of the written word of God with "God's word" itself. No, Catholics simply do not respect GT's personal interpretations (opinions) of God's word. Big difference there.


No Catholic would claim that the Catechism is "Scripture," so we can hardly think that it "adds to Scripture." Try again.


Post the historical date and precise doctrine concerning which the Catholic Church supposedly "went apostate."



Gaudium de veritate,

Cruciform
+T+

Prayers for the dead and sign of the cross, approximately began in 310 AD.

Veneration to angels and dead "Saints", approx. 375.

The worship of Mary, and giving her the title "Mother of God", approx. 431.

Priests begin to dress elaborately, 500 AD.

The doctrine of purgatory, 593.

A chosen language for use, even though it would be an unknown language to a parishioner...the Latin language was chosen as the language of prayer and worship in churches, 600 AD.

The title of pope or universal bishop, was first given to the bishop of Rome by the emperor Phocas, 610 AD.

The kissing of the Pope's feet, 709 AD.

Worship of the cross, images and relics, 788.

Canonization of dead saints, 795 AD.

Holy Water, water mixed with a pinch of salt and blessed by the priest, 850 AD.

Fasting on Fridays and during Lent, 998 AD.

The Mass was developed gradually as a sacrifice; attendance made obligatory in the 11th century.

The celibacy of the priesthood was decreed by Pope Hildebrand, Boniface VII, 1079 AD.

The Rosary, or prayer beads was introduced by Peter the Hermit, in the year 1090. Copied from Hindus and Mohammedans.

The Inquisition of heretics was instituted by the Council of Verona in the year 1184. Jesus never taught the use of force to spread His religion.

The sale of Indulgences, commonly regarded as a purchase of forgiveness and a permit to indulge in sin, 1190 AD.

The dogma of Transubstantiation was decreed upon by Pope Innocent III, in the year 1215.
The priests from all over the world pretends to perform daily a miracle by changing the wafers into the body of Christ, and then he pretends to eat Him alive. The Lord's Supper is remembrance of the sacrifice of Christ. The spiritual presence of Christ is implied in the Lord's Supper. See Luke 22:19-20; John 6:35; 1st Corinthians 11:26.

Confession of sin to the priest at least once a year was instituted by Pope Innocent III., in the Lateran Council, 1215 AD.

The adoration of the wafer (Host), was decreed by Pope Honorius, 1220 AD.

The Bible forbidden to laymen and placed in the Index of forbidden books by the Council of Valencia, 1229 AD.

The Scapular was invented by Simon Stock, and English monk, 1287 AD.

The Ave Maria, 1508 AD. The Hail Mary (sometimes called the "Angelical salutation", sometimes, from the first words in its Latin form, the "Ave Maria") is the most familiar of all the prayers used by the Universal Church in honour of our Blessed Lady.

It is commonly described as consisting of three parts. http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07110b.htm

The Council of Trent, held in the year 1545, declared that Tradition is of equal authority with the Bible.

The apocryphal books were added to the Bible also by the Council of Trent, 1546 AD,

The Creed of Pope Pius IV was imposed as the official creed 1560 years after Christ and the apostles.

The Immaculate Conception of the Virgin Mary was proclaimed by Pope Pius IX, 1834 AD.

In the year 1870 after Christ, Pope Pius IX proclaimed the dogma of Papal Infallibility.

In the year 1950 the last dogma was proclaimed by Pope Pius XII, the Assumption of the Virgin Mary.

intojoy
July 26th, 2015, 11:55 PM
If you sincerely follow the Holy Spirit, He will lead you to the Catholic Church

You may have an aversion to the Roman Catholic Church, don't want to go there, heard so many odd and unkosher sounding things about it..

But you will nonetheless be led there b/c that is part of Christendom...

and if you study history of the Church (from reliable sources) you will learn more and more about this historic Church, THE Church... (but you don't believe that yet) and you will learn more and more and

well...

2 words

Scott Hahn

(Why re-invent the wheel? He has done all the research for you)

He was once anti-Catholic, but he, unlike most anti-Catholics here, STUDIED... and studied and studied... He studied so that he could prove Catholicism was WRONG... but he could not do that...

He has read literally THOUSANDS of books on theology... by Catholics and non-Catholics..

and most of you know what happened..


___

Nope

Ben Masada
July 27th, 2015, 03:40 AM
I don't think Catholics are wrong. We all are different, but we have a common denominator in Jesus.

A common denominator in Jesus or in Paul? I am sure you won't deny that Jesus was a Jew whose Faith was Judaism. How could Catholics have a common denominator in the Judaism of Jesus when we seem not to agree with any thing about each other?

PneumaPsucheSoma
July 27th, 2015, 09:07 AM
Post the historical date and precise doctrine concerning which the Catholic Church supposedly "went apostate."

Gaudium de veritate,

Cruciform
+T+[/FONT]


Prayers for the dead and sign of the cross, approximately began in 310 AD.

Veneration to angels and dead "Saints", approx. 375.

The worship of Mary, and giving her the title "Mother of God", approx. 431.

Priests begin to dress elaborately, 500 AD.

The doctrine of purgatory, 593.

A chosen language for use, even though it would be an unknown language to a parishioner...the Latin language was chosen as the language of prayer and worship in churches, 600 AD.

The title of pope or universal bishop, was first given to the bishop of Rome by the emperor Phocas, 610 AD.

The kissing of the Pope's feet, 709 AD.

Worship of the cross, images and relics, 788.

Canonization of dead saints, 795 AD.

Holy Water, water mixed with a pinch of salt and blessed by the priest, 850 AD.

Fasting on Fridays and during Lent, 998 AD.

The Mass was developed gradually as a sacrifice; attendance made obligatory in the 11th century.

The celibacy of the priesthood was decreed by Pope Hildebrand, Boniface VII, 1079 AD.

The Rosary, or prayer beads was introduced by Peter the Hermit, in the year 1090. Copied from Hindus and Mohammedans.

The Inquisition of heretics was instituted by the Council of Verona in the year 1184. Jesus never taught the use of force to spread His religion.

The sale of Indulgences, commonly regarded as a purchase of forgiveness and a permit to indulge in sin, 1190 AD.

The dogma of Transubstantiation was decreed upon by Pope Innocent III, in the year 1215.
The priests from all over the world pretends to perform daily a miracle by changing the wafers into the body of Christ, and then he pretends to eat Him alive. The Lord's Supper is remembrance of the sacrifice of Christ. The spiritual presence of Christ is implied in the Lord's Supper. See Luke 22:19-20; John 6:35; 1st Corinthians 11:26.

Confession of sin to the priest at least once a year was instituted by Pope Innocent III., in the Lateran Council, 1215 AD.

The adoration of the wafer (Host), was decreed by Pope Honorius, 1220 AD.

The Bible forbidden to laymen and placed in the Index of forbidden books by the Council of Valencia, 1229 AD.

The Scapular was invented by Simon Stock, and English monk, 1287 AD.

The Ave Maria, 1508 AD. The Hail Mary (sometimes called the "Angelical salutation", sometimes, from the first words in its Latin form, the "Ave Maria") is the most familiar of all the prayers used by the Universal Church in honour of our Blessed Lady.

It is commonly described as consisting of three parts. http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07110b.htm

The Council of Trent, held in the year 1545, declared that Tradition is of equal authority with the Bible.

The apocryphal books were added to the Bible also by the Council of Trent, 1546 AD,

The Creed of Pope Pius IV was imposed as the official creed 1560 years after Christ and the apostles.

The Immaculate Conception of the Virgin Mary was proclaimed by Pope Pius IX, 1834 AD.

In the year 1870 after Christ, Pope Pius IX proclaimed the dogma of Papal Infallibility.

In the year 1950 the last dogma was proclaimed by Pope Pius XII, the Assumption of the Virgin Mary.


CRUCIFORM...

Would you please address each of these in this list that you asked for? I'd like to see your response to each item and date. Thanks.

Dan Emanuel
July 27th, 2015, 10:46 AM
A common denominator in Jesus or in Paul? I am sure you won't deny that Jesus was a Jew whose Faith was Judaism. How could Catholics have a common denominator in the Judaism of Jesus when we seem not to agree with any thing about each other?The Holy Catholic Church is you're birthright.


Daniel

Cruciform
July 27th, 2015, 04:45 PM
CRUCIFORM...Would you please address each of these in this list that you asked for? I'd like to see your response to each item and date. Thanks.
Addressed here (//blackieschurchmilitant-apocalypsis.blogspot.com/2007/07/boettner-list-fact-or-fiction.html), here (http://www.catholic.com/tracts/catholic-inventions), here (http://www.catholic.com/tracts/more-catholic-inventions), here (http://www.kathyschley.com/Catholic_Churc/inventions.html), and here (http://www.philvaz.com/apologetics/num4.htm).

PneumaPsucheSoma
July 28th, 2015, 09:34 AM
Addressed here (//blackieschurchmilitant-apocalypsis.blogspot.com/2007/07/boettner-list-fact-or-fiction.html), here (http://www.catholic.com/tracts/catholic-inventions), here (http://www.catholic.com/tracts/more-catholic-inventions), here (http://www.kathyschley.com/Catholic_Churc/inventions.html), and here (http://www.philvaz.com/apologetics/num4.htm).

Links? And likely from biased sources?

Why not directly and succintly address questions that someone took time to posit in response to your demands for detailed doctrines that are at issue?

THIS is why no one can take you seriously. You default to others to answer questions and evade directly doing so yourself.

You did not address even one line of what was posted. Links are only relevant to support your own conversation and contentions.

Why can't you actually defend your position? At least take the time to copy material from the links into responses to each item addressed.

You are the reason so many will never consider Catholicism. And I think that's great, personally.

God's Truth
July 28th, 2015, 10:56 AM
Links? And likely from biased sources?

Why not directly and succintly address questions that someone took time to posit in response to your demands for detailed doctrines that are at issue?

THIS is why no one can take you seriously. You default to others to answer questions and evade directly doing so yourself.

You did not address even one line of what was posted. Links are only relevant to support your own conversation and contentions.

Why can't you actually defend your position? At least take the time to copy material from the links into responses to each item addressed.

You are the reason so many will never consider Catholicism. And I think that's great, personally.

That is kind of you. Thank you for acknowledging the effort I went through to show Catholics, and here especially Cruciform, to show him the dates of the false doctrines of the Catholic denomination.

I figured that Cruciform would reply with links. I wish that he would consider what he stands up for, and see that he is in love with the Catholic church and against God's Word.

Dan Emanuel
July 28th, 2015, 10:58 AM
That is kind of you. Thank you for acknowledging the effort I went through to show Catholics, and here especially Cruciform, to show him the dates of the false doctrines of the Catholic denomination.

I figured that Cruciform would reply with links. I wish that he would consider what he stands up for, and see that he is in love with the Catholic church and against God's Word.The Holy Catholic Church is the Church in Gods Word.


Daniel

God's Truth
July 28th, 2015, 11:05 AM
The Holy Catholic Church is the Church in Gods Word.


Daniel

Obeying Jesus is the Way. The Catholic denomination does not obey God's Word.

Dan Emanuel
July 28th, 2015, 11:10 AM
Obeying Jesus is the Way...Thats what the papacy teach's. My guess is that Peter taught that well before you ever did, so if your going to beat that drum, you have to give credit where its due.

...The Catholic denomination does not obey God's Word.The Holy Catholic Church is the Church, not some denomination.


Daniel

God's Truth
July 28th, 2015, 11:18 AM
Thats what the papacy teach's. My guess is that Peter taught that well before you ever did, so if your going to beat that drum, you have to give credit where its due.

Decide for yourself if the Catholic denomination, or you personally go against God.

Do you add to the written Word?

Do you go by the traditions of men?

Do you call your brothers in Christ 'father'?

Do you use others as mediator between God and you?

Do you, or your denomination water baptize those who have not repented?

Does anyone in your church take the seat of most importance?

Does anyone in you r church wear long flowing robes, and allow others to bow to them, even kissing their feet?

Do you, or anyone in your denomination teach the bowing to statues, pictures, and relics (objects belonging to 'saint')?



The Holy Catholic Church is the Church, not some denomination.


Daniel

It is another false denomination.

aikido7
July 28th, 2015, 11:25 AM
If you sincerely follow the Holy Spirit, He will lead you to the Catholic Church

You may have an aversion to the Roman Catholic Church, don't want to go there, heard so many odd and unkosher sounding things about it..

But you will nonetheless be led there b/c that is part of Christendom...

and if you study history of the Church (from reliable sources) you will learn more and more about this historic Church, THE Church... (but you don't believe that yet) and you will learn more and more and

well...

2 words

Scott Hahn

(Why re-invent the wheel? He has done all the research for you)

He was once anti-Catholic, but he, unlike most anti-Catholics here, STUDIED... and studied and studied... He studied so that he could prove Catholicism was WRONG... but he could not do that...

He has read literally THOUSANDS of books on theology... by Catholics and non-Catholics..

and most of you know what happened..


___ Since "following the Holy Spirit" is markedly different for all believers (and, like it or not, provable according to the person!) your post must be identified as a personal faith statement. In that respect, it is no different in kind from any other personal faith statement.

Religions are filled with different people's "personal testimonies" to all sorts of different theology and every one of them has apparently sought out to "prove" one thing or another.

Dan Emanuel
July 28th, 2015, 11:45 AM
Decide for yourself if the Catholic denomination, or you personally go against God.

Do you add to the written Word?...The Apostle's taught more than just whats' in the New Testament.

...Do you go by the traditions of men?...Certain men. 'Called "Apostle's." Look 'em up. Their in they're.

...Do you call your brothers in Christ 'father'?...No.

...Do you use others as mediator between God and you?...No (I pray "Our Father" as Jesus taught) and yes (I pray also to Mary, Mother of God, and I ask her to "pray for us sinner's"). Jesus listen's to His mother . . . .

...Do you, or your denomination water baptize those who have not repented?...I baptized my children as infant's. So yes. Belief and repentance are later event's.

...Does anyone in your church take the seat of most importance?...N/A

...Does anyone in you r church wear long flowing robes, and allow others to bow to them, even kissing their feet?...N/A

...Do you, or anyone in your denomination teach the bowing to statues, pictures, and relics (objects belonging to 'saint')?...N/A

...It is another false denomination.False.


Daniel

HisServant
July 28th, 2015, 12:29 PM
No (I pray "Our Father" as Jesus taught) and yes (I pray also to Mary, Mother of God, and I ask her to "pray for us sinner's"). Jesus listen's to His mother . . . .

Jesus never taught us to pray to anyone but the Father... he did not say pray to his mother.

His mother is still human and dead.. she cannot hear prayers and has no greater access to Jesus than we do.

Praying to a 'perpetual virgin' is not a unique thing to Christianity, it's rooted in the deification of one of the old pagan Roman Gods (Diana aka Artemis).. whereas she had a child and then had her virginity restored and was then a perpetual virgin. Rome worshiped her for centuries prior to Christianity.

Dan Emanuel
July 28th, 2015, 01:42 PM
Jesus never taught us to pray to anyone but the Father...Jesus never taught you anything. Context, context.

...he did not say pray to his mother...He said John 20:21 KJV. His Apostle's taught to pray to her, and there teaching office, Peters supreme pastorship, the papacy, teach's us today to do so.

...His mother is still human and dead.....She did not die, and beside that, why do you believe that those in heaven cannot hear us?

...she cannot hear prayers and has no greater access to Jesus than we do...Contrary to what you and other non-Catholic's believe, Mary and Jesus, just like other mother's and son's, have an everlasting relationship. "Mother of God" come's from the Greek word for "God-bearer;" she who gave birth to [the Son of] God.

...Praying to a 'perpetual virgin' is not a unique thing to Christianity, it's rooted in the deification of one of the old pagan Roman Gods (Diana aka Artemis).. whereas she had a child and then had her virginity restored and was then a perpetual virgin. Rome worshiped her for centuries prior to Christianity.Who care's. Seriously, nobody care's about this.


Daniel

HisServant
July 28th, 2015, 01:49 PM
Jesus never taught you anything. Context, context.
He said John 20:21 KJV. His Apostle's taught to pray to her, and there teaching office, Peters supreme pastorship, the papacy, teach's us today to do so.
She did not die, and beside that, why do you believe that those in heaven cannot hear us?
Contrary to what you and other non-Catholic's believe, Mary and Jesus, just like other mother's and son's, have an everlasting relationship. "Mother of God" come's from the Greek word for "God-bearer;" she who gave birth to [the Son of] God.
Who care's. Seriously, nobody care's about this.


Daniel

Not a single apostle ever taught anyone to pray to her... I challenge you to prove otherwise.

Mother of God is also a term that was borrowed from Roman Paganism...

Your church has NO connection to Jesus.. who started his church in JERUSALEM.... both he and the Apostles HATED Rome... and according to the Old Testament... Rome is under a PERPETUAL CURSE for its occupation of Israel.

So.... all you believe is a non-historical fairy tail.

And seriously, no one really cares about what you believe... simply because of the fruits of your church are covered in the blood of the innocent.

Dan Emanuel
July 28th, 2015, 02:02 PM
Not a single apostle ever taught anyone to pray to her... I challenge you to prove otherwise...I already did. The Churches' Sacred Tradition come's down from the Apostle's by word-of-mouth from bishop-to-bishop. Your not a bishop, so your not privy to these word-of-mouth exchange's.

...Mother of God is also a term that was borrowed from Roman Paganism...Prove it.

...Your church has NO connection to Jesus.. who started his church in JERUSALEM.... both he and the Apostles HATED Rome...And both Peter and Paul lived and died their.

...and according to the Old Testament... Rome is under a PERPETUAL CURSE for its occupation of Israel...Have you ever read about the Roman's in the Greek Old Testament, that Martin Luther and the Reformer's saw fit to expunge from the Churches' Bible? They'res actually quite a lot about them in their, if you've ever looked.

...So.... all you believe is a non-historical fairy tail...No, you made that up.

...And seriously, no one really cares about what you believe... simply because of the fruits of your church are covered in the blood of the innocent.You just show me a perfect Christian, and I'll show you the Apostle's, because they (beside's Mary) are the pinnacle's of our 1 historic faith, and they weren't perfect.


Daniel

Bright Raven
July 28th, 2015, 02:06 PM
Catholic Tradition doses not cut it! Scripture does.

2 Timothy 3:16 Modern English Version (MEV)

16 All Scripture is inspired by God and is profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for instruction in righteousness,

HisServant
July 28th, 2015, 02:17 PM
I already did. The Churches' Sacred Tradition come's down from the Apostle's by word-of-mouth from bishop-to-bishop. Your not a bishop, so your not privy to these word-of-mouth exchange's.
Prove it.
[/quote

The first evidence of praying to Mary showed up in the 3rd century... before that all the extensive writings of the apostles seem to have forgotten that she was important at all

[QUOTE=Dan Emanuel;4399384]
And both Peter and Paul lived and died their.


Peter could only have been in Rome if he had a teleporter. His travels in the New Testament are well documented and it would have physically impossible for Peter to have ever stepped foot in Rome.

Second, we do know that Paul was in Rome... and he was the most prolific writer and never once did he mention Peter being in Rome.



Have you ever read about the Roman's in the Greek Old Testament, that Martin Luther and the Reformer's saw fit to expunge from the Churches' Bible? They'res actually quite a lot about them in their, if you've ever looked.


They were not successful in doing so either. Except for the Apocryphal books which your church never used for doctrinal matters... they did not meet the criteria they determined for the cannon anyhow.



No, you made that up.
[/quote

My beliefs are based on sound archaeological and historical evidence.

[QUOTE=Dan Emanuel;4399384]
You just show me a perfect Christian, and I'll show you the Apostle's, because they (beside's Mary) are the pinnacle's of our 1 historic faith, and they weren't perfect.


True, but they were disciples of Jesus himself... and they were FAR from being perfect.

FYI, your 'sacred' traditions are nothing but a mythology developed centuries after Jesus to fit with Roman sensibilities and reliance on their old Gods.

Cruciform
July 28th, 2015, 03:38 PM
Catholic Tradition doses not cut it! Scripture does.
...but not your preferred interpretations of Scripture, which are no more than the very "traditions of men" that you oppose.


2 Timothy 3:16 All Scripture is inspired by God and is profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for instruction in righteousness,
The written aspect of God's Word is certainly profitable, and so is the unwritten (http://scripturecatholic.com/oral_tradition.html) aspect of God's Word.



Gaudium de veritate,

Cruciform
+T+

Bright Raven
July 28th, 2015, 03:42 PM
...but not your preferred interpretations of Scripture, which are no more than the very "traditions of men" that you oppose.


The written aspect of God's Word is certainly profitable, and so is the unwritten (http://scripturecatholic.com/oral_tradition.html) aspect of God's Word.



Gaudium de veritate,

Cruciform
+T+
We are to interpret scripture.

Acts 17:11 Modern English Version (MEV)

11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, for they received the word with all eagerness, daily examining the Scriptures, to find out if these things were so.

Cruciform
July 28th, 2015, 03:47 PM
Links? And likely from biased sources?
There's no such thing as an unbiased source---including the ones from which you've derived your present assumptions and beliefs.


Why not directly and succintly address questions that someone took time to posit in response to your demands for detailed doctrines that are at issue?
No need, since this has already been done by Catholics for centuries. The sources I provided contain precisely the information you requested.


THIS is why no one can take you seriously. You default to others to answer questions and evade directly doing so yourself.
The information would be exactly the same whether I cited the sources I did, or wasted my time duplicating the content of those sources by typing it out myself. You got the information you asked for, and so have no right to complain as though you haven't.


You are the reason so many will never consider Catholicism. And I think that's great, personally.
Your transparent excuse for continuing to willfully deny Christ's one historic Church (http://scripturecatholic.com/the_church.html) is noted.



Gaudium de veritate,

Cruciform
+T+

Cruciform
July 28th, 2015, 03:56 PM
We are to interpret scripture.
Yes, we are to interpret Scripture not according to our own preferences and opinions---or those of one of the myriad competing and contradictory recently-invented, man-made non-Catholic sects in existence today---but according to the authoritative teachings of Christ's one historic Church (http://scripturecatholic.com/the_church.html) (Mt. 28:18-20; Lk. 10:16; Ac. 15:2; 16:4; 2 Thess. 3:4; 1 Tim. 3:15; 1 Jn. 4:6).


Acts 17:11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, for they received the word with all eagerness, daily examining the Scriptures, to find out if these things were so.
Unfortunately for your assumptions, the Bereans certainly did not hold to sola scriptura, as is plainly outlined here (http://www.catholic-convert.com/wp-content/uploads/Bereans-and-Sola-Scriptura.pdf).



Gaudium de veritate,

Cruciform
+T+

Bright Raven
July 28th, 2015, 03:59 PM
Yes, we are to interpret Scripture not according to our own preferences and opinions---or those of one of the myriad competing and contradictory recently-invented, man-made non-Catholic sects in existence today---but according to the authoritative teachings of Christ's one historic Church (http://scripturecatholic.com/the_church.html) (Mt. 28:18-20; Lk. 10:16; Ac. 15:2; 16:4; 2 Thess. 3:4; 1 Tim. 3:15; 1 Jn. 4:6).


Unfortunately for your assumptions, the Bereans certainly did not hold to sola scriptura, as is plainly outlined here (http://www.catholic-convert.com/wp-content/uploads/Bereans-and-Sola-Scriptura.pdf).



Gaudium de veritate,

Cruciform
+T+

So you say that the proper interpretation can come through the Catholic Church. Number 1, I should believe that Mary is the Mother of God as the Catholic Church says? Don't think so.

Cruciform
July 28th, 2015, 04:15 PM
So you say that the proper interpretation can come through the Catholic Church.
Not only can, but ultimately does.


...I should believe that Mary is the Mother of God as the Catholic Church says? Don't think so.

That's only because you choose to place your own preferences and opinions (or those of your preferred recently-invented, man-made sect) above the Spirit-given authoritative teachings of Christ's one historic Church (http://scripturecatholic.com/the_church.html) and, therefore, above Christ himself (Lk. 10:16; 1 Tim. 3:15). You certainly see nothing like this among disciples in the New Testament.


Incidentally, Mary is certainly the Mother of God---unless you wish to deny the full divinity of Jesus Christ (http://scripturecatholic.com/jesus_christ_divinity.html). Do you, then, deny the deity of Christ?



Gaudium de veritate,

Cruciform
+T+

PneumaPsucheSoma
July 28th, 2015, 04:15 PM
There's no such thing as an unbiased source---including the ones from which you've derived your present assumptions and beliefs.

If that is true, then you've made my point.


No need, since this has already been done by Catholics for centuries.

No, Catholics have not posted individual responses to those issues on TOL for centuries. Your response makes it all the more curious why you wouldn't do so if the answers are available so readily.

Your tact always includes logical fallacies, including Bulverisms.


The sources I provided contain precisely the information you requested.

I'm on TOL, conversing with you. Why should I access information elsewhere that you won't provide here? How difficult would it be to summarize or copy/paste.

You're a slothful servant, and proselytizer of those who divorced the historically unfaithful Catholic spouse as the alleged Church.

Protestants who have never been Catholic are not excluded by Catholicism, even by Catholic standards.


The information would be exactly the same whether I cited the sources I did, or wasted my time duplicating the content of those sources by typing it out myself. You got the information you asked for, and so have no right to complain as though you haven't.

No, I didn't. I got links. I didn't get one word of information. You insist everyone must carry on your own conversations for you with themselves.


Your transparent excuse for continuing to willfully deny Christ's one historic Church (http://scripturecatholic.com/the_church.html) is noted.

Gaudium de veritate,

Cruciform
+T+

No, I don't. I just appropriately distinguish between catholic and Catholic; the latter being the corrupt Romanized dilution of the former.

The bottom line remains... The OP is incorrect. Many sincerely follow the Holy Spirit, and are not led to the Catholic Church.

What is the official position of the Catholic Church on that? My understanding is that the Popes have insisted others besides Catholics are sincerely led by the Holy Spirit. I'm sure you'll attempt to decry that with ploys of semantics, but it's true.

Cruciform
July 28th, 2015, 04:22 PM
If that is true, then you've made my point.No, Catholics have not posted individual responses to those issues on TOL for centuries.Your response makes it all the more curious why you wouldn't do so if the answers are available so readily.Your tact always includes logical fallacies, including Bulverisms.I'm on TOL, conversing with you.Why should I access information elsewhere that you won't provide here?How difficult would it be to summarize or copy/paste.You're a slothful servant, and proselytizer of those who divorced the historically unfaithful Catholic spouse as the alleged Church.Protestants who have never been Catholic are not excluded by Catholicism, even by Catholic standards.No, I didn't.I got links.I didn't get one word of information. You insist everyone must carry on your own conversations for you with themselves.No, I don't.I just appropriately distinguish between catholic and Catholic; the latter being the corrupt Romanized dilution of the former.The bottom line remains...The OP is incorrect.Many sincerely follow the Holy Spirit, and are not led to the Catholic Church.What is the official position of the Catholic Church on that?My understanding is that the Popes have insisted others besides Catholics are sincerely led by the Holy Spirit.I'm sure you'll attempt to decry that with ploys of semantics, but it's true.
Post #71

PneumaPsucheSoma
July 28th, 2015, 04:51 PM
Post #71

LOL. Good ol' Cruciform.

Y'know... I tell people about you, and have them read your stuff sporadically. They ALL insist your tact is the greatest anti-Catholic pro-Protestant approach they've ever seen.

You drive others FROM Catholicism with your sterile and loveless logical fallacy tactics. It's some weird leftover Evangelical impulse in you to nominally argue and convert others.

You really are the kind of representative for Catholicism that does much more harm than good; whereas a humble, gracious, and knowledgable Orthodox like Arsenios is utterly compelling.

Why continue with such a pattern? You've almost single-handedly caused me to spurn the very mention of Catholicism, when I was preciously much more neutral. Add nominal idiotic indoctrinates like rebulicanchick, and you guys are the greatest deterrent to Catholicism extant.

Just... Why? Why be so... You? Why not be Christ instead? Be beyond non-Catholics in every aspect of your comportment and example. Only then might others listen, and even that's a long-shot.

Terse, overbearing Catholic converts are Evangelical hybrids with little to offer except accusation and condemnation. I've never once met a loving Catholic in my life. Not once. They're all ignorant carnalites with a false agenda of self-righteousness... to a person.

Maybe prayfully consider the weight of these words.

PneumaPsucheSoma
July 28th, 2015, 05:01 PM
Post #71

And... This approach again makes my point.

Others take the time to converse with you at length. In response, you slothfully post links and keep referring to other posts ad nauseum ad infinitum.

Do as you wish, but this is utterly ineffective for even the slightest degree of actual discussion.

Robotic regurgitation. Not a fan. Why not be an actual human and stop condescending to everyone with non-responses.

You reduce others to clay pigeons as your shotgun targets. And this edifies no one nor promotes the Gospel in any manner.

And I'm talking about your pattern and style, not content. By all means, share content. Links and referred posts aren't content.

Arrggghhhh!!!!!

God's Truth
July 28th, 2015, 05:35 PM
The Apostle's taught more than just whats' in the New Testament.

Everything the Catholics add, those things go against WHAT IS WRITTEN.




Certain men. 'Called "Apostle's." Look 'em up. Their in they're.

The Apostles taught verbally what was written. However, the Catholic denomination verbally teaches against what is written.


No.

Jesus says we are all brothers and sisters in Christ.

The Catholics call some of their brothers in Christ ‘father’, and even the Catholic “fathers” call each other ‘father’!


No (I pray "Our Father" as Jesus taught) and yes (I pray also to Mary, Mother of God, and I ask her to "pray for us sinner's"). Jesus listen's to His mother . . . .

Why did you say no and then say you pray to Mary?

If you pray to Mary, then she is a mediator to you. However, God says there is only one mediator and that is Jesus.


If you are saved, and if you have Jesus living in your heart, why would you pray to Mary to go to Jesus for you?



I baptized my children as infant's. So yes. Belief and repentance are later event's.

Jesus says to REPENT and be baptized.



N/A

Is the Catholic’s pope your pope?

If yes, then your pope takes the seat of most importance.

Did you know that the pope even has a special chair?


N/A

Don’t you want to talk about what the Catholic pope does?


N/A
All Catholics, even the Eastern Orthodox Catholics bow to the “Holy Images”, and the relics (material possession of dead “Saints).

Lon
July 28th, 2015, 06:30 PM
Protestantism is definitely an interesting experiment. Lets start over, with just our Bible's to guide us.

'Fact is thats not how the actual Church started. The Bible (including the New Testament and the Greek Old Testament) was the Churches' idea. The Christian Bible is a product of the Church, not the other way around. So to "re-start" the Church based "solely" on the Bible, ought to lead you right back to the Church herself, if the Church did it right; and thats the point of the O.P.


Daniel
I believe this is a severe and mostly laity, mistake and heterodox. The Catholic church 'recognized' the canon, not created it. There are a lot of reasons this has to be true and why many Catholic authorities say the same thing. You have to 'write' the books to be the author.

Collating the OT and the Apostles is/was a no-brainer chore. You simply take books that are written in the OT bible and add anything written by an Apostle or included by an Apostle, and that's the end of it for us. You Orthodox/Catholics can get lost in confusion after the clarity is all over (and that is precisely what happens).

RevTestament
July 29th, 2015, 12:06 AM
Terse, overbearing Catholic converts are Evangelical hybrids with little to offer except accusation and condemnation. I've never once met a loving Catholic in my life. Not once. They're all ignorant carnalites with a false agenda of self-righteousness... to a person.

I think that is a little unfair. I have known some Catholics I really liked. They even went out of their way to be friendly, etc. I still have fond memories of several.

PneumaPsucheSoma
July 29th, 2015, 08:55 AM
I think that is a little unfair. I have known some Catholics I really liked. They even went out of their way to be friendly, etc. I still have fond memories of several.

I truly wish I could say that. Literally 100% of Catholics I've ever known have been as I say. It's disappointing.

:bang:

PneumaPsucheSoma
July 29th, 2015, 08:56 AM
I believe this is a severe and mostly laity, mistake and heterodox. The Catholic church 'recognized' the canon, not created it. There are a lot of reasons this has to be true and why many Catholic authorities say the same thing. You have to 'write' the books to be the author.

Collating the OT and the Apostles is/was a no-brainer chore. You simply take books that are written in the OT bible and add anything written by an Apostle or included by an Apostle, and that's the end of it for us. You Orthodox/Catholics can get lost in confusion after the clarity is all over (and that is precisely what happens).

WORD!!!! Preach.

Ben Masada
July 29th, 2015, 10:48 AM
The Holy Catholic Church is you're birthright.

Daniel

I read in the "Summa Theologica" by the great Catholic Theologian Thomas Aquinas that salvation is found only in the Catholic Church. What is your opinion?

CabinetMaker
July 29th, 2015, 11:17 AM
If you sincerely follow the Holy Spirit, He will lead you to God. God does not live in a church. Any church.

aikido7
July 29th, 2015, 12:07 PM
If you sincerely follow the Holy Spirit, He will lead you to God. God does not live in a church. Any church.What does "sincerely follow the Holy Spirit" actually mean?

Can we evaluate such a question simply by asserting that it is going on in ourselves or in others--or not going on?

How do you tell?

SaulToPaul
July 29th, 2015, 01:55 PM
Can't wait for my new brown scapulars to arrive from Amazon.
Everyone in my family is getting one for Christmas.

Totton Linnet
July 29th, 2015, 02:48 PM
As a kid I used to throw the bathtowel over my shoulders and holding the broom brush end up used to march with six neighbourhood kids following behind....we were playing church

Cruciform
July 29th, 2015, 03:31 PM
LOL.Good ol' Cruciform.Y'know...I tell people about you, and have them read your stuff sporadically.They ALL insist your tact is the greatest anti-Catholic pro-Protestant approach they've ever seen.You drive others FROM Catholicism with your sterile and loveless logical fallacy tactics.It's some weird leftover Evangelical impulse in you to nominally argue and convert others.You really are the kind of representative for Catholicism that does much more harm than good; whereas a humble, gracious, and knowledgable Orthodox like Arsenios is utterly compelling.Why continue with such a pattern?You've almost single-handedly caused me to spurn the very mention of Catholicism, when I was preciously much more neutral.Add nominal idiotic indoctrinates like rebulicanchick, and you guys are the greatest deterrent to Catholicism extant.Just...Why? Why be so...You? Why not be Christ instead?Be beyond non-Catholics in every aspect of your comportment and example.Only then might others listen, and even that's a long-shot.Terse, overbearing Catholic converts are Evangelical hybrids with little to offer except accusation and condemnation.I've never once met a loving Catholic in my life.Not once.They're all ignorant carnalites with a false agenda of self-righteousness...to a person.Maybe prayfully consider the weight of these words.
I certainly would---if there were any weight to your words. What you've delivered here is one long ad hominem rant, and nothing more. You've yet to actually disprove a single Catholic claim or argument, nor can you. Your position essentially amounts to "I don't LIKE what Catholics are saying!" Your personal preference is noted, though it actually proves nothing whatsoever.

Back to Post #71.



Gaudium de veritate,

Cruciform
+T+

Dan Emanuel
July 29th, 2015, 04:48 PM
What does "sincerely follow the Holy Spirit" actually mean?

Can we evaluate such a question simply by asserting that it is going on in ourselves or in others--or not going on?

How do you tell?Very good.


Daniel

republicanchick
July 29th, 2015, 06:25 PM
IfI'm on TOL, conversing with you. Why should I access information elsewhere that you won't provide here? true.

Y shouldn't you?

If you were interested in what the Catholic Church TRULY teaches, you would investigate, read books on saints... the popes throughout history and etc.. But you are not interested enough to do your own research

If you knew what practicing Catholics know, you wouldn't be so...

uh... slothful yourself



++++

republicanchick
July 29th, 2015, 06:27 PM
LOL. Good ol' Cruciform.

Y'know... I tell people about you, and have them read your stuff sporadically. They ALL insist your tact is the greatest anti-Catholic pro-Protestant approach they've ever seen.

You drive others FROM Catholicism with your sterile and loveless logical fallacy tactics. .

that is nothing but a malicious (sounding)

uh... prevarication


aka: untruth

why don't u tell the truth?

You WISH he drove people away from the Church with his "tactics"

you wish you could validly discredit aLL catholics... but you can't. You know there is truth to Catholicism... and that scares you...




+++

Cruciform
July 29th, 2015, 11:12 PM
As a kid I used to throw the bathtowel over my shoulders and holding the broom brush end up used to march with six neighbourhood kids following behind....we were playing church
I did that growing up as a Protestant, too.

CabinetMaker
July 30th, 2015, 08:08 AM
What does "sincerely follow the Holy Spirit" actually mean?

Can we evaluate such a question simply by asserting that it is going on in ourselves or in others--or not going on?

How do you tell?
That is a very hard question to answer. I don't know that I have a good answer. I think we need to be very careful when we put our fate in the hands of a church and just accept everything that church has to say without question. I think that we need to open our bibles, say prayer and then read a book. Not a passage or a few versus, we need to read the whole book. Does what the pastor/preacher/priest says about what you just read square with what the book says as a hole? I think we need to pray more each day. Pray the Lord's Prayer and focus on those words. That is at least a place to start.

CabinetMaker
July 30th, 2015, 08:10 AM
I did that growing up as a Protestant, too.
I didn't have to play. I was an alter boy. :angel:

God's Truth
July 30th, 2015, 10:00 AM
I think that is a little unfair. I have known some Catholics I really liked. They even went out of their way to be friendly, etc. I still have fond memories of several.

Any and all outside of God's Truth are not to be highly valued. Is that why you are a Mormon? Did you succumb to the "What can I do for you?" farce?

I was a Catholic before, and a Mormon.

God's Truth is not in either of those denominations, no matter how nice someone is.

God's Truth
July 30th, 2015, 10:03 AM
Can't wait for my new brown scapulars to arrive from Amazon.
Everyone in my family is getting one for Christmas.

No one should listen to you, for you tell others that we do not have to do what Jesus said when he walked the earth.

God's Truth
July 30th, 2015, 10:07 AM
As a kid I used to throw the bathtowel over my shoulders and holding the broom brush end up used to march with six neighbourhood kids following behind....we were playing church

You still do that. You have went after me many times.

SaulToPaul
July 30th, 2015, 10:08 AM
No one should listen to you, for you tell others that we do not have to do what Jesus said when he walked the earth.

Why do you say you do, but do not?

God's Truth
July 30th, 2015, 10:09 AM
That is a very hard question to answer. I don't know that I have a good answer. I think we need to be very careful when we put our fate in the hands of a church and just accept everything that church has to say without question. I think that we need to open our bibles, say prayer and then read a book. Not a passage or a few versus, we need to read the whole book. Does what the pastor/preacher/priest says about what you just read square with what the book says as a hole? I think we need to pray more each day. Pray the Lord's Prayer and focus on those words. That is at least a place to start.

No. NONE OF THAT. How about obey what Jesus says!

God's Truth
July 30th, 2015, 10:10 AM
Why do you say you do, but do not?

You are a false accuser.

SaulToPaul
July 30th, 2015, 10:11 AM
You are a false accuser.

Nah. Everyone knows you say, but do not do.

God's Truth
July 30th, 2015, 10:12 AM
Nah. Everyone knows you say, but do not do.

You need the Lord. You do not like it that your man made doctrines are so easily rebuked by the Word of God.

SaulToPaul
July 30th, 2015, 10:14 AM
You need the Lord.

Why do you say, but do not do?
Is honesty important?

HisServant
July 30th, 2015, 10:14 AM
You need the Lord. You do not like it that your man made doctrines are so easily rebuked by the Word of God.

Your interpretation of God's word has already been proven to be bogus... its based on legalism and a hybrid of Old Covenant and New Covenant laws.

You may know your scriptures but you don't seem to have the mental capacity to put them within their proper context and discern their meaning.

Anyhow.

Talk to you later 'God's Untruth'

God's Truth
July 30th, 2015, 10:15 AM
SaultoPaul tells everyone that they do not have to do what Jesus says when he walked the earth, i.e., Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John. Think for yourselves, is a person who spends his life saying we do not have to listen to this and that from Jesus doing right? Think for yourself.

SaulToPaul
July 30th, 2015, 10:15 AM
You may know your scriptures but you don't seem to have the mental capacity to put them within their proper context and discern their meaning.



Her light burns dimly, indeed.

SaulToPaul
July 30th, 2015, 10:16 AM
SaultoPaul tells everyone that they do not have to do what Jesus says when he walked the earth,

Why do you say you do, but do not?
Is lying a sin?

God's Truth
July 30th, 2015, 10:17 AM
Your interpretation of God's word has already been proven to be bogus... its based on legalism and a hybrid of Old Covenant and New Covenant laws.

You may know your scriptures but you don't seem to have the mental capacity to put them within their proper context and discern their meaning.

Anyhow.

Talk to you later 'God's Untruth'

I know you are upset because the blessings in your second marriage you have now was based on a sin you did before and that you do not want to repent of it and preach the truth, and that is that you divorced and remarried. Jesus says not to do that. It is my belief that he says that, and for that, you attack me endlessly.

However, the Word of God, Jesus Christ Himself, said those things about marriage, and too bad that it burns you so much so that you want to attack me.

HisServant
July 30th, 2015, 10:20 AM
I know you are upset because the blessings in your second marriage you have now was based on a sin you did before and that you do not want to repent.

However, the Word of God, Jesus Christ Himself, said those things about marriage, and too bad that it burns you so much so that you want to attack me.

It doesn't burn at all... what burns me is people like you that refuse 'to study to show thyself approved' and bear false witness against my Lord.

Once again, your blasphemy and inconsistent doctrine was exposed in another thread and I noticed you ran away from it like a little school girl because you were exposed.

I have very little patience for those that bear false witness against Jesus.... like you.

Get thee behind me Satan!

God's Truth
July 30th, 2015, 10:21 AM
Matthew 19:12 For there are eunuchs who were born that way, and there are eunuchs who have been made eunuchs by others--and there are those who choose to live like eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom of heaven. The one who can accept this should accept it."

Luke 16:18
"Anyone who divorces his wife and marries another woman commits adultery, and the man who marries a divorced woman commits adultery.

Matthew 19:9b
"and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery."

So what do we learn from this part of the passage?
Whoever marries her which is put away doth commit adultery

God's Truth
July 30th, 2015, 10:23 AM
It doesn't burn at all... what burns me is people like you that refuse 'to study to show thyself approved' and bear false witness against my Lord.

Hahahaha I am the one who says to obey Jesus.



Once again, your blasphemy and inconsistent doctrine was exposed in another thread and I noticed you ran away from it like a little school girl because you were exposed.

Why would you run like a little school girl? Jesus says not to be cowards.



I have very little patience for those that bear false witness against Jesus.... like you.

Get thee behind me Satan!

I preach and teach obedience to Jesus. How do you ever get that is from Satan?

HisServant
July 30th, 2015, 10:23 AM
Matthew 1912 For there are eunuchs who were born that way, and there are eunuchs who have been made eunuchs by others--and there are those who choose to live like eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom of heaven. The one who can accept this should accept it."

Luke 16:18
"Anyone who divorces his wife and marries another woman commits adultery, and the man who marries a divorced woman commits adultery.

Matthew 19:9b
"and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery."

So what do we learn from this part of the passage?
Whoever marries her which is put away doth commit adultery

Context.. my dear... context is everything.

Why do you condemn others in your own ignorance?

Basically, this is what you are doing to Jesus...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9YMgW51craQ

SaulToPaul
July 30th, 2015, 10:24 AM
Hahahaha I am the one who says to obey Jesus.





But then, you do not.

God's Truth
July 30th, 2015, 10:25 AM
Context.. my dear... context is everything.

Why do you condemn others in your own ignorance?

Basically, this is what you are doing to Jesus...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9YMgW51craQ

You use a sinful man to defend your beliefs...enough said.

God's Truth
July 30th, 2015, 10:26 AM
But then, you do not.

Then I heard a loud voice in heaven say: "Now have come the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God, and the authority of his Messiah. For the accuser of our brothers and sisters, who accuses them before our God day and night, has been hurled down.


God does not go by what the accuser says; He goes by those who are in Christ Jesus.

SaulToPaul
July 30th, 2015, 10:28 AM
Then I heard a loud voice in heaven say: "Now have come the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God, and the authority of his Messiah. For the accuser of our brothers and sisters, who accuses them before our God day and night, has been hurled down.


God does not go by what the accuser says; He goes by those who are in Christ Jesus.

I don't have to accuse you. Moses does.
Sin is transgression of the law. And you do transgress.

God's Truth
July 30th, 2015, 10:29 AM
I don't have to accuse you. Moses does.
Sin is transgression of the law. And you do transgress.

Moses does no such thing.

You are reaching for straws. Straw burns up fast.

SaulToPaul
July 30th, 2015, 10:30 AM
Moses does no such thing.

You are reaching for straws. Straw burns up fast.

Cute.
Sin is the transgression of the law. Why do you break it?

God's Truth
July 30th, 2015, 10:32 AM
Cute.

Thank you, cute and true.



Sin is the transgression of the law. Why do you break it?

I do not break the law.

All you have to defend yourself are false accusations against me.

HisServant
July 30th, 2015, 10:32 AM
Hahahaha I am the one who says to obey Jesus.



Why would you run like a little school girl? Jesus says not to be cowards.


I preach and teach obedience to Jesus. How do you ever get that is from Satan?

Because the New Covenant has nothing to do with obedience... yet obedience is the core of what you are trying to teach people.... which is the tactic of the deceiver.

Before Jesus' death, He preached as a Jewish Rabbi teaching to Jews under the Old Covenant that was based on obedience... so he had to teach them to be obedient... he was showing them the fulfillment of the Old Covenant in his words. He pointed out that their obedience without faith was futile. Their obedience did not even save them at that time either... it was FAITH that the Messiah would come (even his disciples did not recognize him as the Messiah until Peter confessed he was just before he was taken away for Crucifixion).

After his resurrection, he did not teach anymore and the apostles did not know what to do anymore because they knew his previous teaching was no longer valid... but Jesus did say that the Holy Spirit would come and lead them 'into all truth' and help them discern.

That is why you see doctrinal development in the books beyond the Gospels... as the apostles started to receive the spirit and start to understand what the New Covenant in Jesus' blood was all about.

Anyhow, Jesus' commentary on 1st century Old Covenant Jewish marriage/divorce practices really isn't applicable to New Covenant Christians.

SaulToPaul
July 30th, 2015, 10:33 AM
I do not break the law.



Sure you do.
Read one chapter of the law, and you will be found guilty multiple times.

CabinetMaker
July 30th, 2015, 10:33 AM
No. NONE OF THAT. How about obey what Jesus says!
How about that and obey Jesus? They are not mutually exclusive propositions.

HisServant
July 30th, 2015, 10:35 AM
You use a sinful man to defend your beliefs...enough said.

I defend the scripture!... how is that sinful?

And who are you to judge me?... A woman that is told to not speak in church or teach men?

Why do you disobey scripture and try and teach?

God's Truth
July 30th, 2015, 10:36 AM
Because the New Covenant has nothing to do with obedience...
WOW. God did not nail obedience to the cross. God nailed the old rules and regulations to the cross, AND SIN---not obedience.



yet obedience is the core of what you are trying to teach people.... which is the tactic of the deceiver.

What you say is the tactic to the deceiver. You say, "Did God really say we have to obey Jesus?"


See Genesis 3:1!

CabinetMaker
July 30th, 2015, 10:36 AM
Matthew 19:12 For there are eunuchs who were born that way, and there are eunuchs who have been made eunuchs by others--and there are those who choose to live like eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom of heaven. The one who can accept this should accept it."

Luke 16:18
"Anyone who divorces his wife and marries another woman commits adultery, and the man who marries a divorced woman commits adultery.

Matthew 19:9b
"and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery."

So what do we learn from this part of the passage?
Whoever marries her which is put away doth commit adultery
Why did you leave out this verse?

Matthew 5:32New International Version (NIV)
32 But I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, makes her the victim of adultery, and anyone who marries a divorced woman commits adultery.

God's Truth
July 30th, 2015, 10:38 AM
Sure you do.
Read one chapter of the law, and you will be found guilty multiple times.

There were changes to the old law, and the old law with its changes are our new law. In the New Testament, which means New Covenant, are the teachings from Jesus, which are the guidelines for being IN THE NEW COVENANT.

HisServant
July 30th, 2015, 10:38 AM
WOW. God did not nail obedience to the cross. God nailed the old rules and regulations to the cross, AND SIN---not obedience.



What you say is the tactic to the deceiver. You say, "Did God really say we have to obey Jesus?"


See Genesis 3:1!

We are instructed to obey the Holy Spirit... it is he that will lead us into all truth.

To deny the spirit like you do is to put a muzzle on God.

SaulToPaul
July 30th, 2015, 10:39 AM
There were changes to the old law, and the old law with its changes are our new law. In the New Testament, which means New Covenant, are the teachings from Jesus, which are the guidelines for being IN THE NEW COVENANT.

Sin is transgression of the law. You know exactly which law 1 John is referring to.

Why do you break it?

God's Truth
July 30th, 2015, 10:39 AM
How about that and obey Jesus? They are not mutually exclusive propositions.

You said nothing about obeying Jesus. You have went against me for years, and or have avoided me. In the post you wrote, you said nothing about obeying Jesus...yet that is how Jesus reveals himself to us and helps us.

HisServant
July 30th, 2015, 10:39 AM
There were changes to the old law, and the old law with its changes are our new law. In the New Testament, which means New Covenant, are the teachings from Jesus, which are the guidelines for being IN THE NEW COVENANT.

The Old Covenant was fulfilled and done away with and replaced.

There are no changes for you to pick and chose between (which you obviously do).

God's Truth
July 30th, 2015, 10:41 AM
I defend the scripture!... how is that sinful?

And who are you to judge me?... A woman that is told to not speak in church or teach men?

Why do you disobey scripture and try and teach?

You hope I am a woman.

I speak to you the words of a Man, the Son of Man, Jesus Christ.

You give words from a non believing comedian on late night television.

God's Truth
July 30th, 2015, 10:45 AM
Why did you leave out this verse?

Matthew 5:32New International Version (NIV)
32 But I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, makes her the victim of adultery, and anyone who marries a divorced woman commits adultery.

I did not leave anything out.

Read that scripture carefully...anyone who divorces his wife EXCEPT FOR ADULTERY causes her to commit adultery. YOU DO NOT CAUSE HER TO BE AN ADULTERER IF SHE WAS CAUGHT IN ADULTERY.

You have to study this harder, for with the measure you use it will be measured to you, and more. See Mark 4:24.

If she is being divorced because she committed adultery---then you did not cause her to be an adulterer when she remarries, because she was already an adulterer.


If you divorced her for some other reason BESIDES ADULTERY, then YOU caused her to commit adultery.

CabinetMaker
July 30th, 2015, 10:45 AM
You said nothing about obeying Jesus. You have went against me for years, and or have avoided me. In the post you wrote, you said nothing about obeying Jesus...yet that is how Jesus reveals himself to us and helps us.
Because the topic of the thread is following the Holy Spirit. To one that is seeking and starts to follow the Holy Spirit, they will be lead to Christ and loving obedience of His commands. Be careful about reducing loving obedience to blind legalism.

CabinetMaker
July 30th, 2015, 10:47 AM
I did not leave anything out.

Read that scripture carefully...anyone who divorces his wife EXCEPT FOR ADULTERY causes her to commit adultery. YOU DO NOT CAUSE HER TO BE AN ADULTERER IF SHE WAS CAUGHT IN ADULTERY.

You have to study this harder, for with the measure you use it will be measured to you, and more. See Mark 4:24.

If she is being divorced because she committed adultery---then you did not cause her to be an adulterer when she remarries.

If you divorced her for some other reason BESIDES ADULTERY, then YOU caused her to commit adultery when she remarried, because she was already an adulterer.
And what of yourself? What happens to you if you remarry?

God's Truth
July 30th, 2015, 10:49 AM
Because the topic of the thread is following the Holy Spirit. To one that is seeking and starts to follow the Holy Spirit, they will be lead to Christ and loving obedience of His commands. Be careful about reducing loving obedience to blind legalism.

You are not following the Holy Spirit if you are not obey Jesus Christ.

HisServant
July 30th, 2015, 10:51 AM
You are not following the Holy Spirit if you are not obey Jesus Christ.

You have it the other way around... you are trying once again to put people into the bondage of the Old Covenant.

God's Truth
July 30th, 2015, 10:52 AM
And what of yourself? What happens to you if you remarry?

I would not remarry now that I know the truth.

I have repented of sex before marriage, and I have been married once to someone who has been married before to people who have been married before...

I repent and now know the truth and will not defend my possible sins by changing what Jesus says; and, I now know that I know the Truth, I would not marry unless widowed, and only to someone who has never been married, or widowed, and maybe not even then.

HisServant
July 30th, 2015, 10:53 AM
You hope I am a woman.

I speak to you the words of a Man, the Son of Man, Jesus Christ.

You give words from a non believing comedian on late night television.

I gave words from a comedian because your approach to scripture and Jesus words are exactly what he did to the other people in his clips.

You bleep out the scriptures you do not want to deal with... and you only show small snippets of scriptures that agree with your non-biblical take on things.

CabinetMaker
July 30th, 2015, 10:54 AM
You are not following the Holy Spirit if you are not obey Jesus Christ.
As I said, one begins a journey and in the fullness of time they learn what it means to love and serve God. You need to back up and put yourself in the shoes of a person just starting to ask question about who is God and Jesus and what is salvation. If you make it ALL about obedience then they will never learn the love of God, they will only know rules. Laws cannot save anybody, they can only condemn and punish. Think of it this way, you do not obey Jesus in order to get to heaven, you obey Jesus because you are already going to heaven. Think about it a bit.

God's Truth
July 30th, 2015, 10:57 AM
I gave words from a comedian because your approach to scripture and Jesus words are exactly what he did to the other people in his clips.

You bleep out the scriptures you do not want to deal with... and you only show small snippets of scriptures that agree with your non-biblical take on things.

You are a false accuser.

You have shown me EXACTLY what you do.

You are the one who bleeps out the scripture you do not want to deal with, and you are the one who only shows small snippets of scriptures that you misunderstand that you erroneously think agrees with your non biblical take on things.

Let's talk about scripture and not what evil men who devout their lives to defending their sins say.

HisServant
July 30th, 2015, 11:00 AM
You are a false accuser.

You have shown me EXACTLY what you do.

You are the one who bleeps out the scripture you do not want to deal with, and you are the one who only shows small snippets of scriptures that you misunderstand that you erroneously think agrees with your non biblical take on things.

Let's talk about scripture and not what evil men who devout their lives to defending their sins say.

I never show parts of verses... EVER! I quote entire paragraphs and chapters. I NEVER censor scripture like you do and I go above and beyond to never bear false witness against Jesus... ever

In post #111 above you posted individual verses and even a part of one... and you couldn't even be bothered to show their context and the surrounding verses leading up to that verse.

That my friend, is pure and unadulterated laziness and bearing false witness against GOD!.

In essence, you value what you are trying to teach above what God was actually trying to teach... its a tactic of many arm chair 'scholars' that care more to put down others and preserve their precious little reality distortion field that defines their existence rather than taking an honest look at things.

You disgust me because of your total ignorance and carelessness toward the God of the Universe!

God's Truth
July 30th, 2015, 11:02 AM
As I said, one begins a journey and in the fullness of time they learn what it means to love and serve God. You need to back up and put yourself in the shoes of a person just starting to ask question about who is God and Jesus and what is salvation. If you make it ALL about obedience then they will never learn the love of God, they will only know rules.

You are so badly mistaken.

You are hindering those people who want to be saved, for you are keeping them from truly knowing God and for knowing how to be saved, and from knowing they are saved.

I will gladly give you scripture that tells us plainly that we must obey God, and that is how we are loved by God, and known by God.

Obeying Jesus is how we know the truth, for that is to whom Jesus reveals himself, to those who get his teachings and obeys them



Laws cannot save anybody, they can only condemn and punish. Think of it this way, you do not obey Jesus in order to get to heaven, you obey Jesus because you are already going to heaven. Think about it a bit.

I know about that catchy little phrase...but it is not from God.

It is not condemning to preach obedience... it does not cause punishment to preach obedience, or to obey Jesus! Who would say such a thing? Jesus is the WAY. If you do not do what the way says, then how will you get there?

God's Truth
July 30th, 2015, 11:06 AM
I never show parts of verses... EVER! I quote entire paragraphs and chapters. I NEVER censor scripture like you do and not bear false witness against Jesus... ever

You do exactly as you have falsely accused me.

You do not even want to repent of remarrying while your first wife was still alive.

You do not want to be as an eunuch for the sake of the kingdom of heaven!

And, you do not want to preach the TRUTH that Jesus says that.

Repent and preach the truth.

Matthew 1912 For there are eunuchs who were born that way, and there are eunuchs who have been made eunuchs by others--and there are those who choose to live like eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom of heaven. The one who can accept this should accept it

HisServant
July 30th, 2015, 11:07 AM
You are so badly mistaken.

You are hindering those people who want to be saved, for you are keeping them from truly knowing God and for knowing how to be saved, and from knowing they are saved.

I will gladly give you scripture that tells us plainly that we must obey God, and that is how we are loved by God, and known by God.

Obeying Jesus is how we know the truth, for that is to whom Jesus reveals himself, to those who get his teachings and obeys them



I know about that catchy little phrase...but it is not from God.

It is not condemning to preach obedience... it does not cause punishment to preach obedience, or to obey Jesus! Who would say such a thing? Jesus is the WAY. If you do not do what the way says, then how will you get there?

More unadulterated blasphemy.... you are starting to amuse me.

HisServant
July 30th, 2015, 11:08 AM
You do exactly as you have falsely accused me.

You do not even want to repent of remarrying while your first wife was still alive.

You do not want to be as an eunuch for the sake of the kingdom of heaven!

And, you do not want to preach the TRUTH that Jesus says that.

Repent and preach the truth.

Matthew 1912 For there are eunuchs who were born that way, and there are eunuchs who have been made eunuchs by others--and there are those who choose to live like eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom of heaven. The one who can accept this should accept it

There you go again.. TWISTING GODS WORD AND TAKING IT OUT OF CONTEXT!

Why did he say this.. and to who.. and why?

You are proving yourself to me more of an agent of the deceiver with every post you make.

And who says I haven't repented of remarrying?... why would I even say such a thing to YOU?... you are not my confessor!

You are nothing more than a judgmental agent of Satan... one that wishes to enslave more people to himself.

God's Truth
July 30th, 2015, 11:09 AM
More unadulterated blasphemy.... you are starting to amuse me.

I have done no such thing, and if you are amused by God's Truth, then so be it.


Revelation 22:11 Let the one who does wrong continue to do wrong; let the vile person continue to be vile; let the one who does right continue to do right; and let the holy person continue to be holy."

God's Truth
July 30th, 2015, 11:10 AM
There you go again.. TWISTING GODS WORD AND TAKING IT OUT OF CONTEXT!

Why did he say this.. and to who.. and why?

You are proving yourself to me more of an agent of the deceiver with every post you make.

Again, you have correctly exposed yourself as being an agent of the deceiver.

Tell me, what about the things Jesus said do you think are false?

HisServant
July 30th, 2015, 11:11 AM
Again, you have correctly exposed yourself as being an agent of the deceiver.

Tell me, what about the things Jesus said do you think are false?

Wow.... just wow.... You are probably the dumbest person I have ever had the displeasure of dealing with on the internet.

Its amazing your brain provides enough power to move your fingers to type.

HisServant
July 30th, 2015, 11:13 AM
Again, you have correctly exposed yourself as being an agent of the deceiver.

Tell me, what about the things Jesus said do you think are false?

None of what he said was false... but all of what he said while he was preaching as a Rabbi to Jews under the Old Covenant is not applicable today, unless he taught them as a COMMANDMENT.

What he said as a Rabbi is very important in shedding light on the practices that had developed over the centuries since the 10 commandments and levitical law were given to the Israelites.

But you also have to notice that Jesus said that if you love him you will keep his COMMANDMENTS!

So that puts you in the dilema of trying to determine what exactly HIS COMMANDMENTS were?

His teaching on marriage is NOT A COMMANDMENT.. it is an instruction.


My paraphrase of his words are... "Love the Lord your God with all your heart, mind and spirit, and love your neighbor as yourself... the sum of the Law hinges on this".

Are you teaching love?... or are you teaching obedience?... because the two are very different! One leads to heaven and the other leads to condemnation.

God's Truth
July 30th, 2015, 11:22 AM
None of what he said was false... but all of what he said while he was preaching as a Rabbi to Jews under the Old Covenant is not applicable today, unless he taught them as a COMMANDMENT.

What he said as a Rabbi is very important in shedding light on the practices that had developed over the centuries since the 10 commandments and levitical law were given to the Israelites.

But you also have to notice that Jesus said that if you love him you will keep his COMMANDMENTS!

So that puts you in the dilema of trying to determine what exactly HIS COMMANDMENTS were?

His teaching on marriage is NOT A COMMANDMENT.. it is an instruction.


And his exact words were... "Love the Lord your God with all your heart, mind and spirit, and love your neighbor as yourself... the sum of the Law hinges on this".

Are you teaching love?... or are you teaching obedience?... because the two are very different!

No, what Jesus says is not temporary and only for Jews long ago.

Jesus is the Word of God, and what he says is forever.

HisServant
July 30th, 2015, 11:25 AM
No, what Jesus says is not temporary and only for Jews long ago.

Jesus is the Word of God, and what he says is forever.

Then you must still obey all of the Old Covenant laws... Jesus also gave us those... and according to you what he says is forever.

Basically you are attempting to be a modern day Jew... I pity you, because you will fail and be judged by your failures. You will not have your sins cleansed by the blood of Christ and your ultimate fate will be based on what you alone... and the excuses you will try and offer to God, of which he will see through like glass and send you to the lake of fire as he promised.

You need to repent of your sins and ask for forgiveness... then start apologizing to those you have lead astray.

God's Truth
July 30th, 2015, 11:28 AM
Then you must still obey all of the Old Covenant laws... Jesus also gave us those... and according to you what he says is forever.

Basically you are attempting to be a modern day Jew... I pity you, because you will fail and be judged by your failures. You will not have your sins cleansed by the blood of Christ and your ultimate fate will be based on what you alone... and the excuses you will try and offer to God, of which he will see through like glass and send you to the lake of fire as he promised.

You need to repent of your sins and ask for forgiveness... then start apologizing to those you have lead astray.

Jesus fulfilled the old law. You have no idea what that means.

CabinetMaker
July 30th, 2015, 11:35 AM
You are so badly mistaken.

You are hindering those people who want to be saved, for you are keeping them from truly knowing God and for knowing how to be saved, and from knowing they are saved.Obedience comes through salvation, salvation does not come through obedience.


I will gladly give you scripture that tells us plainly that we must obey God, and that is how we are loved by God, and known by God.It will be interesting to see what versus you roll out.


Obeying Jesus is how we know the truth, for that is to whom Jesus reveals himself, to those who get his teachings and obeys themIf you are obeying a bunch of rules then you will never know Jesus. You don't find Jesus in rules, He is not there.


I know about that catchy little phrase...but it is not from God.Salvation is. The Holy Spirit is.


It is not condemning to preach obedience...They way you preach it it is.


it does not cause punishment to preach obedience, or to obey Jesus!Nor does it bring salvation.


Who would say such a thing? Jesus is the WAY. If you do not do what the way says, then how will you get there?Because the WAY of Jesus is not following about rules. That was for Israel and they failed miserably at it. You can do no better than they at following rules.

HisServant
July 30th, 2015, 11:35 AM
Jesus fulfilled the old law. You have no idea what that means.

I absolutely know what that means... apparently you do not.

Your beliefs put you in a position to pick and choose whatever you want (and in some cases you have chosen things based on some really horrible English translations)... In essence you have made yourself GOD.

If you do not know Greek or Hebrew... you should probably be silent.

God's Truth
July 30th, 2015, 11:41 AM
Obedience comes through salvation, salvation does not come through obedience.
That is not what Jesus says.


It will be interesting to see what versus you roll out.
But will you believe them?


If you are obeying a bunch of rules then you will never know Jesus. You don't find Jesus in rules, He is not there.
Jesus is the WORD of God. Jesus’ words are Spirit and full of life.

Salvation is. The Holy Spirit is.
If you do not obey what the Word says, then you are not living through the Spirit and the Spirit is not living through you.


They way you preach it it is.
No, not just because you say so.


Nor does it bring salvation.
Obeying Jesus is what brings salvation.

Because the WAY of Jesus is not following about rules. That was for Israel and they failed miserably at it. You can do no better than they at following rules.

Only the remnant of the Jews obeyed Jesus, those who do not are not saved.

God's Truth
July 30th, 2015, 11:43 AM
I absolutely know what that means... apparently you do not.

Your beliefs put you in a position to pick and choose whatever you want (and in some cases you have chosen things based on some really horrible English translations)... In essence you have made yourself GOD.

If you do not know Greek or Hebrew... you should probably be silent.

What you say is nowhere in the Bible and does not come from God.

God does not say you have to know Greek or Hebrew.

aikido7
July 30th, 2015, 11:48 AM
If you sincerely follow the Holy Spirit, He will lead you to the Catholic Church

You may have an aversion to the Roman Catholic Church, don't want to go there, heard so many odd and unkosher sounding things about it..

But you will nonetheless be led there b/c that is part of Christendom...

and if you study history of the Church (from reliable sources) you will learn more and more about this historic Church, THE Church... (but you don't believe that yet) and you will learn more and more and

well...

2 words

Scott Hahn

(Why re-invent the wheel? He has done all the research for you)

He was once anti-Catholic, but he, unlike most anti-Catholics here, STUDIED... and studied and studied... He studied so that he could prove Catholicism was WRONG... but he could not do that...

He has read literally THOUSANDS of books on theology... by Catholics and non-Catholics..

and most of you know what happened..


___

How does one judge the "sincerity" of a believer who is "following the Holy Spirit"?

Any native speaker of English with a modicum of common sense knows that anyone who claims to know the mind, soul, heart and intentions of someone else is at a great disadvantage.

This is exactly why, in my opinion, that Jesus spoke out a lot about judging others and human hypocrisy.

Who is really taking him seriously these days?

God's Truth
July 30th, 2015, 11:51 AM
How does one judge the "sincerity" of a believer who is "following the Holy Spirit"?

Any native speaker of English with a modicum of common sense knows that anyone who claims to know the mind, soul, heart and intentions of someone else is at a great disadvantage.

This is exactly why, in my opinion, that Jesus spoke out a lot about judging others and human hypocrisy.

Who is really taking him seriously these days?

Jesus says we can know what is in another person's heart.

Luke 6:45 A good man brings good things out of the good stored up in his heart, and an evil man brings evil things out of the evil stored up in his heart. For the mouth speaks what the heart is full of.

aikido7
July 30th, 2015, 12:04 PM
The text says nothing about Jesus or anyone else somehow mystically or imagining knowing what is in another's heart. This is nothing other-worldly. It is just common sense to connect a person's actions and their words. Most people raised up with a decent set of parents know to pay attention to both mind and heart in any person's speech.

It is a helpful bit of 2,000-year-old pop psychology. And add it all up in the context of knowing full well the logs in our own eyes before we point out the specks of sawdust in our neighbor's.

If anything, Jesus should teach us humility.

God's Truth
July 30th, 2015, 12:09 PM
The text says nothing about Jesus or anyone else somehow mystically or imagining knowing what is in another's heart. This is nothing other-worldly. It is just common sense to connect a person's actions and their words. Most people raised up with a decent set of parents know to pay attention to both mind and heart in any person's speech.

It is a helpful bit of 2,000-year-old pop psychology. And add it all up in the context of knowing full well the logs in our own eyes before we point out the specks of sawdust in our neighbor's.

If anything, Jesus should teach us humility.

You cannot diminish the Truth, and that is that we can know what is in another person's heart by what they say.

I could not care any less if you want to give credit to mere men for saying that too, but if you reject Jesus, you are still condemned.

HisServant
July 30th, 2015, 12:12 PM
What you say is nowhere in the Bible and does not come from God.

God does not say you have to know Greek or Hebrew.

If you really cared about learning the scriptures wouldn't you seriously want to learn what was said in the original languages?

Or is putting your faith in translators opinions of what they mean sufficient to you?

HisServant
July 30th, 2015, 12:15 PM
Jesus says we can know what is in another person's heart.

Luke 6:45 A good man brings good things out of the good stored up in his heart, and an evil man brings evil things out of the evil stored up in his heart. For the mouth speaks what the heart is full of.

God says otherwise.

You are cherry picking what suits you again.



God’s Wisdom Revealed by the Spirit

6We do, however, speak a message of wisdom among the mature, but not the wisdom of this age or of the rulers of this age, who are coming to nothing. 7No, we declare God’s wisdom, a mystery that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began. 8None of the rulers of this age understood it, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. 9However, as it is written:

“What no eye has seen,
what no ear has heard,
and what no human mind has conceived”b —
the things God has prepared for those who love him—
10these are the things God has revealed to us by his Spirit.

The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God. 11For who knows a person’s thoughts except their own spirit within them? In the same way no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God. 12What we have received is not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, so that we may understand what God has freely given us. 13This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, explaining spiritual realities with Spirit-taught words.c 14The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and cannot understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit. 15The person with the Spirit makes judgments about all things, but such a person is not subject to merely human judgments, 16for,

“Who has known the mind of the Lord
so as to instruct him?”d
But we have the mind of Christ.

God's Truth
July 30th, 2015, 12:15 PM
If you really cared about learning the scriptures wouldn't you seriously want to learn what was said in the original languages?

Or is putting your faith in translators opinions of what they mean sufficient to you?

You will not ever know what the scriptures mean until you get Jesus' teachings and obey them, for that is to whom Jesus reveals himself.

God's Truth
July 30th, 2015, 12:16 PM
God says otherwise.

You are cherry picking what suits you again.

You are saying that to the scripture.

HisServant
July 30th, 2015, 12:18 PM
You will not ever know what the scriptures mean until you get Jesus' teachings and obey them, for that is to whom Jesus reveals himself.

Jesus said it is the Holy Spirit that revels himself.

Without the Holy Spirit, the scriptures are just words on a page... which is how you treat them

Again.. you are cherry picking based on YOUR wants and desires... not Jesus'.

I bet I can find a piece of scripture that contradicts every one you post.

God's Truth
July 30th, 2015, 12:21 PM
Jesus said it is the Holy Spirit that revels himself.

Without the Holy Spirit, the scriptures are just words on a page... which is how you treat them

Again.. you are cherry picking based on YOUR wants and desires... not Jesus'.

I bet I can find a piece of scripture that contradicts every one you post.

Jesus says that HE REVEALS HIMSELF to those who obey.

"The person who has my commandments and obeys them is the one who loves me. The one who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I will love him and will reveal myself to him."

HisServant
July 30th, 2015, 12:25 PM
Jesus says that HE REVEALS HIMSELF to those who obey.

"The person who has my commandments and obeys them is the one who loves me. The one who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I will love him and will reveal myself to him."

Define commandments then because that is what he instructs us to obey. He doesn't say his teachings or parables or anything else.. he repeatedly says COMMANDMENTS in multiple scriptures.

You also seem to be running two sentences together and ignoring the distinctions between them... what is between your bolded words are just as important.

God's Truth
July 30th, 2015, 12:28 PM
Define commandments then because that is what he instructs us to obey. He doesn't say his teachings or parables or anything else.. he repeatedly says COMMANDMENTS in multiple scriptures.

Read what Jesus teaches in the New Testament. New Testament means New Covenant.

When a covenant is made, the rules and guidelines must be followed exactly.

If you are not obeying Jesus, then you are disobeying him. Now how is that ever right?

HisServant
July 30th, 2015, 12:29 PM
Read what Jesus teaches in the New Testament. New Testament means New Covenant.

When a covenant is made, the rules and guidelines must be followed exactly.

If you are not obeying Jesus, then you are disobeying him. Now how is that ever right?

Define the COMMANDMENTS he is referring to please (he repeatedly says COMMANDMENTS.. not teachings.. the two are not the same) ... words have meaning.

I'm getting tired of your evasion of key questions.

God's Truth
July 30th, 2015, 12:31 PM
Define the COMMANDMENTS he is referring to please... words have meaning.

I'm getting tired of your evasion of key questions.

I am not evading anything.

Don't you know what Jesus' commandments are?

HisServant
July 30th, 2015, 12:31 PM
I am not evading anything.

Don't you know what Jesus' commandments are?

I'm asking you.

Grosnick Marowbe
July 30th, 2015, 12:35 PM
[B][FONT="Book Antiqua"]If you sincerely follow the Holy Spirit, He will lead you to the Catholic Church



Quite the opposite. The Catholic church is crammed full of false doctrine.
The Catholic church can't lead you to the nearest mini-mart, let alone, to
eternal life.

God's Truth
July 30th, 2015, 12:36 PM
I'm asking you.

Open the New Testament and start searching.

Man does not live on bread alone, but on every word of that comes from the mouth of God.

That is Mathew 4:4.

Do you understand how to live on every word from God?

We live on God's word by obeying what God says.

SaulToPaul
July 30th, 2015, 12:36 PM
Quite the opposite. The Catholic church is crammed full of false doctrine.
The Catholic church can't lead you to the nearest mini-mart, let alone, to
eternal life.

But they have a great Friday night fish fry.

God's Truth
July 30th, 2015, 12:37 PM
Worship the Lord your God, and serve him only.

Repent, for the kingdom of heave is near.


Those are more teachings from Jesus.

HisServant
July 30th, 2015, 12:38 PM
Open the New Testament and start searching.

Man does not live on bread alone, but on every word of that comes from the mouth of God.

That is Mathew 4:4.

Do you understand how to live on every word from God?

We live on God's word by obeying what God says.

You still did not answer my question.

Please define his COMMANDMENTS!

Grosnick Marowbe
July 30th, 2015, 12:42 PM
I am not evading anything.

Don't you know what Jesus' commandments are?

I see you're still at it. Trying to convince everybody that they
should "earn" their way to Heaven.

God's Truth
July 30th, 2015, 12:43 PM
You still did not answer my question.

Please define his COMMANDMENTS!

I am not going to print the Holy New Testament here for you.

I have told you what to do, now why don't you do it?

Open up the New Testament and find Jesus' teachings.

Start with Matthew.

Jesus says man does not live on bread alone, but on every word that comes from the mouth of God.

SaulToPaul
July 30th, 2015, 12:44 PM
I have told you what to do, now why don't you do it?



Bossy and mean.

Grosnick Marowbe
July 30th, 2015, 12:44 PM
But they have a great Friday night fish fry.

Any Tarter sauce?

God's Truth
July 30th, 2015, 12:44 PM
I see you're still at it. Trying to convince everybody that they
should "earn" their way to Heaven.

Revelation 14:23 Then I heard a voice from heaven say, "Write this: Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on." "Yes," says the Spirit, "they will rest from their labor, for their deeds will follow them."

God's Truth
July 30th, 2015, 12:46 PM
Bossy and mean.

Maybe only sissys think I am bossy and mean?

Grosnick Marowbe
July 30th, 2015, 12:47 PM
I am not going to print the Holy New Testament here for you.

I have told you what to do, now why don't you do it?

Open up the New Testament and find Jesus' teachings.

Start with Matthew.

Jesus says man does not live on bread alone, but on every word that comes from the mouth of God.

But, Matthew through John was written to the Lost sheep of Israel? Are you one of them?

Grosnick Marowbe
July 30th, 2015, 12:47 PM
Maybe only sissys think I am bossy and mean?

Don't forget ignorant!

God's Truth
July 30th, 2015, 12:48 PM
But, Matthew through John was written to the Lost sheep of Israel? Are you one of them?

Are you a Corinthian?

Maybe you are Timothy himself, or Titus?

Grosnick Marowbe
July 30th, 2015, 12:48 PM
Revelation 14:23 Then I heard a voice from heaven say, "Write this: Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on." "Yes," says the Spirit, "they will rest from their labor, for their deeds will follow them."

Revelation isn't about the "Body of Christ."

God's Truth
July 30th, 2015, 12:49 PM
Don't forget ignorant!

Okay, maybe only the ignorant think I am bossy and mean.

Thanks, GM, you got that right.

Grosnick Marowbe
July 30th, 2015, 12:50 PM
Are you a Corinthian?

Maybe you are Timothy himself, or Titus?

Work on the "Come backs."

God's Truth
July 30th, 2015, 12:50 PM
Revelation isn't about the "Body of Christ."

What Jesus says is for everyone. Jesus is the Savior of the world.

Grosnick Marowbe
July 30th, 2015, 12:51 PM
Okay, maybe only the ignorant think I am bossy and mean.

Thanks, GM, you got that right.

The ignorant and the non-ignorant think you don't know what you're talking about. There, now you have a full house against ya.

Grosnick Marowbe
July 30th, 2015, 12:52 PM
What Jesus says is for everyone. Jesus is the Savior of the world.

You sound like Meshak.

SaulToPaul
July 30th, 2015, 12:52 PM
Maybe only sissys think I am bossy and mean?

Real men prefer women that behave like ladies.

God's Truth
July 30th, 2015, 12:53 PM
The ignorant and the non-ignorant think you don't know what you're talking about. There, now you have a full house against ya.

They were against Jesus too.

Grosnick Marowbe
July 30th, 2015, 12:54 PM
In order for you to receive eternal life, you have to be part of the Body of Christ.
Are you GT?

HisServant
July 30th, 2015, 12:54 PM
I am not going to print the Holy New Testament here for you.

I have told you what to do, now why don't you do it?

Open up the New Testament and find Jesus' teachings.

Start with Matthew.

Jesus says man does not live on bread alone, but on every word that comes from the mouth of God.

Not all of the New Testament are commandments.

How do you know what parts of the New Testament are commandments and which aren't?

Have you cut out your tongue or cut off your hand yet?... its in scripture and I am sure you have lied at least once in your life.. or stolen something as small as a pencil at some point. Have you disfigured yourself as commanded yet?

Grosnick Marowbe
July 30th, 2015, 12:55 PM
They were against Jesus too.

Are you equal to Him?

God's Truth
July 30th, 2015, 12:56 PM
You sound like Meshak.

You sure do.

You are Meshaks opposite twin.

You only believe what you misunderstand Paul as saying, and Meshak hates Paul for what she misunderstands him as saying.

Grosnick Marowbe
July 30th, 2015, 12:56 PM
GT causes trouble wherever she is at the moment. Just like Meshak.

Grosnick Marowbe
July 30th, 2015, 12:57 PM
You sure do.

Rather childish come back, don't you think? Oh, that's right, you don't think!

Grosnick Marowbe
July 30th, 2015, 12:58 PM
You sure do.

You are Meshaks opposite twin.

You only believe what you misunderstand Paul as saying, and Meshak hates Paul for what she misunderstands him as saying.

Why don't you add: "I know you do but what am I?"

Dan Emanuel
July 30th, 2015, 12:59 PM
That is a very hard question to answer. I don't know that I have a good answer. I think we need to be very careful when we put our fate in the hands of a church and just accept everything that church has to say without question. I think that we need to open our bibles, say prayer and then read a book. Not a passage or a few versus, we need to read the whole book. Does what the pastor/preacher/priest says about what you just read square with what the book says as a hole? I think we need to pray more each day. Pray the Lord's Prayer and focus on those words. That is at least a place to start.Thats great advice.


Daniel

God's Truth
July 30th, 2015, 12:59 PM
Real men prefer women that behave like ladies.

And you think you are a real man for following me around lying about me and giving me neg reps with hateful messages?

Grosnick Marowbe
July 30th, 2015, 01:00 PM
And you think you are a real man for following me around lying about me and giving me neg reps with hateful messages?

Did you deserve them? I'll bet you did.

SaulToPaul
July 30th, 2015, 01:10 PM
And you think you are a real man for following me around lying about me and giving me neg reps with hateful messages?

The reps and messages are because I disapprove of your lying and perversion of the gospel. You are leading people to hell.

God's Truth
July 30th, 2015, 01:11 PM
The reps and messages are because I disapprove of your lying and perversion of the gospel. You are leading people to hell.

That is exactly what you are doing.

Dan Emanuel
July 30th, 2015, 01:12 PM
I read in the "Summa Theologica" by the great Catholic Theologian Thomas Aquinas that salvation is found only in the Catholic Church. What is your opinion?Yes, as it is specifically explained by the papacy, the line of successor's of Peter, the 1st and hand-picked by our Lord, supreme pastor of the Church (Matthew 16:18 KJV).

Our Lord gave His own teaching authority to His Apostle's, and He was a Jew according to His original flesh, and they were all Jew's. The Church ("the household of God") is a fundamentally, foundationally (literally, Ephesians 2:19-20 KJV), Jewish thing.

Its your birthright.


Daniel

SaulToPaul
July 30th, 2015, 01:12 PM
That is exactly what you are doing.

No, I urge people to believe the gospel and trust Christ.

Dan Emanuel
July 30th, 2015, 01:22 PM
Protestantism is definitely an interesting experiment. Lets start over, with just our Bible's to guide us.

'Fact is thats not how the actual Church started. The Bible (including the New Testament and the Greek Old Testament) was the Churches' idea. The Christian Bible is a product of the Church, not the other way around. So to "re-start" the Church based "solely" on the Bible, ought to lead you right back to the Church herself, if the Church did it right; and thats the point of the O.P.


I believe this is a severe and mostly laity, mistake and heterodox...Say's 1 "laity" to another then. :chuckle: (Your not a bishop, right? :))

... The Catholic church 'recognized' the canon, not created it. There are a lot of reasons this has to be true and why many Catholic authorities say the same thing. You have to 'write' the books to be the author...The Apostle's, the foundation of the Church (Ephesians 2:19-20 KJV), put their by Jesus Christ Himself, mind you; the Apostle's didn't win a contest to be the foundation of the Church; they were placed their, by our Lord, the Master Builder.

And they approved of book's like Luke and Act's, and Jame's; even though these were not written by Apostle's. This show's the authority of the Apostle's, that they can define Scripture for the Church. And they did. It was the Old Testament, the Greek Old Testament, and the New Testament. This is the Church Bible, and it alway's has been, essentially from the time that each book was penned. The Apostle's had this authority (2 Peter 3:15-16 KJV) because of the key's (Matthew 16:19 KJV) and from rather direct instruction's from our Lord (John 20:21 KJV (John 20:23 KJV)).

...Collating the OT and the Apostles is/was a no-brainer chore. You simply take books that are written in the OT bible and add anything written by an Apostle or included by an Apostle, and that's the end of it for us. You Orthodox/Catholics can get lost in confusion after the clarity is all over (and that is precisely what happens).The clarity that exist's that Protestant's cannot see, is that Jesus Christ clearly built His Church upon the Apostle's, and not upon the Christian Bible, or the Old Testament, or anything else. Its right their, in black-and-white. The Apostle's themselve's are sent by Christ. He gave them the responsibility and the authority to rule His Church.

And I'm not Catholic or Orthodox.


Daniel

God's Truth
July 30th, 2015, 01:38 PM
No, I urge people to believe the gospel and trust Christ.

You preach against me preaching to obey Jesus.

It is never ever wrong to obey Jesus.

Who would preach such a thing?

Think about it.

SaulToPaul
July 30th, 2015, 01:41 PM
You preach against me preaching to obey Jesus.



Because you say, but do not do.

God's Truth
July 30th, 2015, 01:58 PM
Because you say, but do not do.

All you have are accusations.

If you had the truth, you would defend it with God's written Word, and not with lies about me.

Grosnick Marowbe
July 30th, 2015, 02:07 PM
All you have are accusations.

If you had the truth, you would defend it with God's written Word, and not with lies about me.

I'm afraid you have everything, "Topsy-turvy" GT. You don't
have the slightest idea what "Rightly dividing" the Word means.
You strive to attain eternal life through your good works and deeds.

As if, your good deeds and works could gain you eternal life! You're
not impressing anyone. You're only deceiving yourself. That is utterly
disdainful. You ought to start your own Cult perhaps?

SaulToPaul
July 30th, 2015, 02:09 PM
You're not impressing anyone. You're only deceiving yourself.

Deep down in her core, she knows that she does not measure up to the Righteous Standard.

I don't know why she puts on the act for TOL. Nobody buys it.

Grosnick Marowbe
July 30th, 2015, 02:13 PM
You ascribe your, "verbal fisticuffs" to your desire to spread truth yet, you
act like a brawling Misanthrope. You ought to feel ashamed of your uncivil
behavior? Instead, you flaunt it. What a pity it is.

Grosnick Marowbe
July 30th, 2015, 02:16 PM
Deep down in her core, she knows that she does not measure up to the Righteous Standard.

I don't know why she puts on the act for TOL. Nobody buys it.

I don't know what she thinks she's gaining? Perhaps, she seeks relevance or some kind of warped attention?

SaulToPaul
July 30th, 2015, 02:17 PM
I don't know what she thinks she's gaining? Perhaps, she seeks relevance or some kind of warped attention?

I think she wants to be admired as someone great. She has diluted the commandments to the point where she claims to keep them all.

Warped attention is a good way to describe it.

God's Truth
July 30th, 2015, 02:18 PM
Deep down in her core, she knows that she does not measure up to the Righteous Standard.

I don't know why she puts on the act for TOL. Nobody buys it.

What else do you got accuser?

Grosnick Marowbe
July 30th, 2015, 02:18 PM
You're a "One woman army" GT. You have no followers. Your false doctrine
is your constant companion. How sad, to see you going down the wrong path.

SaulToPaul
July 30th, 2015, 02:18 PM
What else do you got accuser?

The Law convicts you. Every day of your life.

God's Truth
July 30th, 2015, 02:18 PM
I think she wants to be admired as someone great. She has diluted the commandments to the point where she claims to keep them all.

Warped attention is a good way to describe it.

Which commandments are you not obeying? Do you really think you should be doing any of those sins?

Grosnick Marowbe
July 30th, 2015, 02:19 PM
I think she wants to be admired as someone great. She has diluted the commandments to the point where she claims to keep them all.

Warped attention is a good way to describe it.

True.

Grosnick Marowbe
July 30th, 2015, 02:22 PM
Which commandments are you not obeying? Do you really think you should be doing any of those sins?

He's in the "Body of Christ" and has the righteousness of Christ.
He needs not, anything else. However, you on the other hand, have
self-deceived yourself into believing you must follow the Law that
was given to the Jews.

Grosnick Marowbe
July 30th, 2015, 02:24 PM
Which commandments are you not obeying? Do you really think you should be doing any of those sins?

Stop pointing your finger at others and start examining your own position.

SaulToPaul
July 30th, 2015, 02:24 PM
He's in the "Body of Christ" and has the righteousness of Christ.
He needs not, anything else. However, you on the other hand, have
self-deceived yourself into believing you must follow the Law that
was given to the Jews.

That's the key, his righteousness is what we must have.
Not our own.

God's Truth
July 30th, 2015, 02:25 PM
Stop pointing your finger at others and start examining your own position.

You both can answer the question.

Grosnick Marowbe
July 30th, 2015, 02:26 PM
GT, if you're intending to follow the Law, then you must follow it 100%. You dare not falter in your endeavor.

Grosnick Marowbe
July 30th, 2015, 02:27 PM
That's the key, his righteousness is what we must have.
Not our own.

Amen.

Grosnick Marowbe
July 30th, 2015, 02:27 PM
You both can answer the question.

What question, dare I ask?

HisServant
July 30th, 2015, 02:27 PM
GT, if you're intending to follow the Law, then you must follow it 100%. You dare not falter in your endeavor.

She doesn't... so she is already doomed.

Grosnick Marowbe
July 30th, 2015, 02:30 PM
What else do you got accuser?

Plenty, no doubt. You're in a very vulnerable position. You, have yet
to grasp the truth of Paul's Gospel. Therefore, you're not in the "Body
of Christ" thus far and if ever?

Grosnick Marowbe
July 30th, 2015, 02:31 PM
She doesn't... so she is already doomed.

Good post

God's Truth
July 30th, 2015, 02:32 PM
What question, dare I ask?

Did you lose track of where you were?

God's Truth
July 30th, 2015, 02:36 PM
Plenty, no doubt. You're in a very vulnerable position. You, have yet
to grasp the truth of Paul's Gospel. Therefore, you're not in the "Body
of Christ" thus far and if ever?

Paul says no other gospel. Why don't you believe Paul?

Grosnick Marowbe
July 30th, 2015, 02:36 PM
GT, one cannot be obedient to God, until one has heard the Grace Message (Paul's
Gospel) placed ALL of their faith in Christ and not themselves (that's where you
come in) been sealed, indwelt and baptized (not by water) into the Body of Christ
by the Holy Spirit. That's the ONLY route that's available in this age. (Dispensation of Grace)

God's Truth
July 30th, 2015, 02:38 PM
She doesn't... so she is already doomed.

I obey everything Jesus says.

What are you not obeying?

Do you really think you should be doing those sins?

HisServant
July 30th, 2015, 02:39 PM
I obey everything Jesus says.

What are you not obeying?

Do you really think you should be doing those sins?

Your presence here is a violation of what Jesus said... so is the fact that you are trying to teach men when you should be silent.

Why don't you practice what you preach... or did Jesus teach you to be a hypocrite?

Or do you feel you should just obey what you feel like obeying?

achduke
July 30th, 2015, 02:40 PM
GT, one cannot be obedient to God, until one has heard the Grace Message (Paul's
Gospel) placed ALL of their faith in Christ and not themselves (that's where you
come in) been sealed, indwelt and baptized (not by water) into the Body of Christ
by the Holy Spirit. That's the ONLY route that's available in this age. (Dispensation of Grace)

Why do they have to listen to Paul if they have already been saved and are hearing the Holy Spirit. Would not Paul just confirm what the spirit is already telling you?

Grosnick Marowbe
July 30th, 2015, 02:40 PM
Paul says no other gospel. Why don't you believe Paul?

Paul is speaking of the Gospel that the "Ascended Christ" gave to Paul.
Truly, there is ONLY one Gospel today and that is "Paul's Gospel." You,
on the other hand are trying to follow Christ's earthly Message to the
lost sheep of the House of Israel. That's the "Kingdom Message." (Gospel)

God's Truth
July 30th, 2015, 02:41 PM
GT, one cannot be obedient to God, until one has heard the Grace Message (Paul's
Gospel) placed ALL of their faith in Christ and not themselves (that's where you
come in) been sealed, indwelt and baptized (not by water) into the Body of Christ
by the Holy Spirit. That's the ONLY route that's available in this age. (Dispensation of Grace)

Paul says no other gospel.

Paul's gospel is also my gospel, it is God's gospel, the gospel of Christ.

HisServant
July 30th, 2015, 02:41 PM
Why do they have to listen to Paul if they have already been saved and are hearing the Holy Spirit. Would not Paul just confirm what the spirit is already telling you?

Yep.. way too many works and 'i can do it all by myself and God will HAVE to accept me.. people around here'

God doesn't owe anyone a single thing.

You can be 100% obedient to God also, and he is still not under any obligation to do a single thing for you... he even says people will drive out demons in his name and he will know them not.

Grosnick Marowbe
July 30th, 2015, 02:43 PM
Why do they have to listen to Paul if they have already been saved and are hearing the Holy Spirit. Would not Paul just confirm what the spirit is already telling you?

Romans 2:16 states: "In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel."

Grosnick Marowbe
July 30th, 2015, 02:44 PM
That is Paul speaking about the final judgment.

Grosnick Marowbe
July 30th, 2015, 02:45 PM
Yep.. way too many works and 'i can do it all by myself and God will HAVE to accept me.. people around here'

God doesn't owe anyone a single thing.

You can be 100% obedient to God also, and he is still not under any obligation to do a single thing for you... he even says people will drive out demons in his name and he will know them not.

Yep.

God's Truth
July 30th, 2015, 02:45 PM
Your presence here is a violation of what Jesus said... so is the fact that you are trying to teach men when you should be silent.

Why don't you practice what you preach... or did Jesus teach you to be a hypocrite?

Or do you feel you should just obey what you feel like obeying?

If you had the Truth you would not need anyone to teach you, not a man or a woman.

Grosnick Marowbe
July 30th, 2015, 02:46 PM
Did you lose track of where you were?

Easy to do when someone is posting with you.

HisServant
July 30th, 2015, 02:46 PM
If you had the Truth you would not need anyone to teach you, not a man or a woman.

So why have you assumed the role of teacher when it is a direct violation of scripture?

Why aren't you obeying?

God's Truth
July 30th, 2015, 02:47 PM
Yep.. way too many works and 'i can do it all by myself and God will HAVE to accept me.. people around here'

God doesn't owe anyone a single thing.

You can be 100% obedient to God also, and he is still not under any obligation to do a single thing for you... he even says people will drive out demons in his name and he will know them not.

Jesus says he knows them not because they did not obey and repent of their sins; they were still evildoers.

Grosnick Marowbe
July 30th, 2015, 02:47 PM
If you had the Truth you would not need anyone to teach you, not a man or a woman.

Do you THINK that you obey, 100%?

HisServant
July 30th, 2015, 02:47 PM
Jesus says he knows them not because they did not obey and repent of their sins; they were still evildoers.

No.. they thought obedience was enough... which is doing evil.