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Robert Pate
July 22nd, 2015, 04:51 PM
Calvinist want us to believe that God is unjust, unmercilful and unrighteous, because that is what they believe that he is. If you believe that God chose "some certain persons" to be saved and damned the rest to hell, then you would be justified in believing that about God. They frequently refer to Romans chapter 9 to make their point. I have done an indepth study of Romans 9 and have found that their beliefs and accusations are false. This article is rather lenghty. Please bear with me.

Romans 9:1-5. The oracles of God were committed to the Jews. They were God's chosen people in the sense that it would be through the Jewish people that the savior of the world would come. Just as the Jews were the keepers of the law and the oracles of God, it was also God's plan that they would also be the keepers of the Gospel. It didn't completely work out that way.

Romans 9:6-9. "They are not all Israel which are Israel". Abraham had spiritual descendants and physical descendants. The spiritual descendants of Abraham are Gods people and are Christians. "In Isaac shall thy seed be called" Isaac had two sons, Jacob and Esau.

Romans 9:10-16. It was Gods plan that Jacob was to be one of the Patriarchs that would lead to Christ. Only one son could be a Patriarch. God chose Jacob. Esau was not a spiritual descendant of Abraham. Esau was of the flesh. He was more concerned about the things of the flesh than spiritual things. Jacob loved the spiritual things of God. Jacob loved God. It is only natural that God would love those that love him. There is nothing in Romans 9 about Esau being predestinated to hell because he was hated by God. Esau represents the fleshy, ungodly, things of the world. God said to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion". This does not mean that God is fickled. This means that God is the one that shows mercy. We have nothing to do with God showing mercy or being compassionate. It is one of God's attributes. The point being made here is that God is merciful and compassionate.

Romans 9:17-21. God did not harden Pharaohs heart. If God did that he would be unjust. However, God did use this rebel to demonstrate his power to the Israelites. The scripture is refering to the plagues that God brought upon the Egyptians. "Who has resisted his will?" All have, we are all sinners. God does not create evil people so that he can vent his wrath on them. "The vessels of wrath fitted for destruction" are Christ rejecting unbelievers. "Hath not the potter power over the clay?" Yes, God has the power to create evil people. The scripture does not say that he does. If he did that he would not be just.

Romans 9:22-27. Here we come to the "What If" scriptures. What follows the "What If" scriptures is NOT what God does. Paul is theorizing. "What if God was willing to show his wrath and to make his power known, endured with much long-suffering on the vessels of wrath fitted for destruction?" Paul is asking a question. Actually this is what God did when he sent his Son Jesus Christ into the world. We are all the vessels of God's wrath because we are all sinners. But God in his great mercy sends his Son Jesus Christ into the world to become sin for us. Verses 25 and 26 is about the Gospel going to the Gentiles so that they can be saved.

Romans 9:28-30. "For he will finish the work and cut it short" Jesus's ministry was only for about three years. That is how long it took him to defeat sin, death and the devil and in doing so perfected our humanity and took it back to heaven. Paul makes a comparison between the Jews that tried to be justified by the law and the Gentiles that were justified by faith. The Jews stumbled at the stumbling stone, who is Jesus and then ends the chapter with, "Whosoever that believes on him (Jesus) shall not be ashamed".

Brother Ducky
July 22nd, 2015, 07:11 PM
Romans 9:17-21. God did not harden Pharaohs heart. If God did that he would be unjust.


Exodus 4:21
21 And the Lord said to Moses, "When you go back to Egypt, see that you do before Pharaoh all the miracles that I have put in your power. But I will harden his heart, so that he will not let the people go. ESV
Exodus 7:3
3 But I will harden Pharaoh's heart, and though I multiply my signs and wonders in the land of Egypt, ESV
Exodus 14:4
4 And I will harden Pharaoh's heart, and he will pursue them, and I will get glory over Pharaoh and all his host, and the Egyptians shall know that I am the Lord." And they did so.
ESV
Exodus 14:17
17 And I will harden the hearts of the Egyptians so that they shall go in after them, and I will get glory over Pharaoh and all his host, his chariots, and his horsemen. ESV

So maybe you need to rethink how you want to limit God.

Robert Pate
July 23rd, 2015, 05:13 AM
Exodus 4:21
21 And the Lord said to Moses, "When you go back to Egypt, see that you do before Pharaoh all the miracles that I have put in your power. But I will harden his heart, so that he will not let the people go. ESV
Exodus 7:3
3 But I will harden Pharaoh's heart, and though I multiply my signs and wonders in the land of Egypt, ESV
Exodus 14:4
4 And I will harden Pharaoh's heart, and he will pursue them, and I will get glory over Pharaoh and all his host, and the Egyptians shall know that I am the Lord." And they did so.
ESV
Exodus 14:17
17 And I will harden the hearts of the Egyptians so that they shall go in after them, and I will get glory over Pharaoh and all his host, his chariots, and his horsemen. ESV

So maybe you need to rethink how you want to limit God.


God hardens no ones heart, not even Pharoahs. Pharoah was a wicked ruler. God used him for his own glory.

Pharoahs heart was already hardened by his own free will. God simply capitalized on it.

You want to believe that God creates reprobates. God does not create reprobates, but he can use them for his purpose.

"And Pharaoh said, Who is the Lord that I should obey his voice to let Israel Go? I KNOW NOT THE LORD, neither will I let Israel go" Exodus 5:2.

Zeke
July 23rd, 2015, 08:09 AM
they live in a world that is run the same way! so the spirit of this kingdom being run like a caste/pyramid system naturally would produce various programs, be they religious or secular to keep that mind set relevant among the lower levels of the caste/pyramid/servitude class etc......The propagandist of old foretold of a world where people would come to love their servitude which is disguised in those tried and trued patriotic/nationalistic/religious potions injected into them from birth certified to death certified creatures/strawmen created on paper who obey mans laws not their inner Divine heritage.

Robert Pate
July 23rd, 2015, 02:50 PM
The scripture also says that Pharaoh hardened his own heart, Exodus 8:32 also Exodus 9:34.

George Affleck
July 23rd, 2015, 04:15 PM
God hardens no ones heart, not even Pharoahs.

Ex 14:4KJV

Now we know where you stand in relation to God's Word.

Brother Ducky
July 23rd, 2015, 07:58 PM
God hardens no ones heart, not even Pharoahs. Pharoah was a wicked ruler. God used him for his own glory.



Perhaps you did not have the time to read the verses before you answered. Maybe you should do that and re-respond.

Robert Pate
July 24th, 2015, 07:48 AM
Perhaps you did not have the time to read the verses before you answered. Maybe you should do that and re-respond.

There is no other scripture that says God hardens anyones heart.

It is not in God's nature or character to harden someones heart. Unless like Pharaoh he knew that he would not repent of his evil ways, so he hardened his heart.

What the scripture means is that God confirmed that Pharaohs heart was hard. This is difficult scripture because it does not fit the rest of the Bible. It is out of Gods character.

Perhaps God knew that Pharaoh would harden his heart and not let the Israelites go, so he hardened it further.

All that God does, he does in justice, mercy and righteousness. If you don't believe that, then you should not call yourself a Christian.

beloved57
July 24th, 2015, 09:26 AM
Calvinist want us to believe that God is unjust, unmercilful and unrighteous, because that is what they believe that he is. If you believe that God chose "some certain persons" to be saved and damned the rest to hell, then you would be justified in believing that about God. They frequently refer to Romans chapter 9 to make their point. I have done an indepth study of Romans 9 and have found that their beliefs and accusations are false. This article is rather lenghty. Please bear with me.

Romans 9:1-5. The oracles of God were committed to the Jews. They were God's chosen people in the sense that it would be through the Jewish people that the savior of the world would come. Just as the Jews were the keepers of the law and the oracles of God, it was also God's plan that they would also be the keepers of the Gospel. It didn't completely work out that way.

Romans 9:6-9. "They are not all Israel which are Israel". Abraham had spiritual descendants and physical descendants. The spiritual descendants of Abraham are Gods people and are Christians. "In Isaac shall thy seed be called" Isaac had two sons, Jacob and Esau.

Romans 9:10-16. It was Gods plan that Jacob was to be one of the Patriarchs that would lead to Christ. Only one son could be a Patriarch. God chose Jacob. Esau was not a spiritual descendant of Abraham. Esau was of the flesh. He was more concerned about the things of the flesh than spiritual things. Jacob loved the spiritual things of God. Jacob loved God. It is only natural that God would love those that love him. There is nothing in Romans 9 about Esau being predestinated to hell because he was hated by God. Esau represents the fleshy, ungodly, things of the world. God said to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion". This does not mean that God is fickled. This means that God is the one that shows mercy. We have nothing to do with God showing mercy or being compassionate. It is one of God's attributes. The point being made here is that God is merciful and compassionate.

Romans 9:17-21. God did not harden Pharaohs heart. If God did that he would be unjust. However, God did use this rebel to demonstrate his power to the Israelites. The scripture is refering to the plagues that God brought upon the Egyptians. "Who has resisted his will?" All have, we are all sinners. God does not create evil people so that he can vent his wrath on them. "The vessels of wrath fitted for destruction" are Christ rejecting unbelievers. "Hath not the potter power over the clay?" Yes, God has the power to create evil people. The scripture does not say that he does. If he did that he would not be just.

Romans 9:22-27. Here we come to the "What If" scriptures. What follows the "What If" scriptures is NOT what God does. Paul is theorizing. "What if God was willing to show his wrath and to make his power known, endured with much long-suffering on the vessels of wrath fitted for destruction?" Paul is asking a question. Actually this is what God did when he sent his Son Jesus Christ into the world. We are all the vessels of God's wrath because we are all sinners. But God in his great mercy sends his Son Jesus Christ into the world to become sin for us. Verses 25 and 26 is about the Gospel going to the Gentiles so that they can be saved.

Romans 9:28-30. "For he will finish the work and cut it short" Jesus's ministry was only for about three years. That is how long it took him to defeat sin, death and the devil and in doing so perfected our humanity and took it back to heaven. Paul makes a comparison between the Jews that tried to be justified by the law and the Gentiles that were justified by faith. The Jews stumbled at the stumbling stone, who is Jesus and then ends the chapter with, "Whosoever that believes on him (Jesus) shall not be ashamed".

Invalid comments and evil speaking against God ! In Romans 9 Paul says not one word about Pharoah hardening his own heart !

Robert Pate
July 24th, 2015, 12:18 PM
Invalid comments and evil speaking against God ! In Romans 9 Paul says not one word about Pharoah hardening his own heart !

There are two scriptures that say Pharaoh hardened his heart, Exodus 8:32 and Exodus 9:34.

beloved57
July 24th, 2015, 01:37 PM
There are two scriptures that say Pharaoh hardened his heart, Exodus 8:32 and Exodus 9:34.

Did Paul quote them in Rom 9 ?

bling
July 24th, 2015, 02:21 PM
Two things here.
The same actions by God can harden or soften a person's heart depending on how they accept the disciplining.
The other concept is: Deity would know when a person reached the point of never being able to accept God's Love and after that point they take on the lessor objective of helping others that have not yet but still can make the choice to accept or reject God's charity. Pharaoh could have reached that point very early in his life.

Robert Pate
July 24th, 2015, 03:55 PM
Two things here.
The same actions by God can harden or soften a person's heart depending on how they accept the disciplining.
The other concept is: Deity would know when a person reached the point of never being able to accept God's Love and after that point they take on the lessor objective of helping others that have not yet but still can make the choice to accept or reject God's charity. Pharaoh could have reached that point very early in his life.


Right, God knows who are his, he also knows who the reprobates are.

This doesn't mean that a reprobate cannot be saved. I have seen some unlikely people become Christians.

Jerry Shugart
July 25th, 2015, 09:46 AM
It is not in God's nature or character to harden someones heart. Unless like Pharaoh he knew that he would not repent of his evil ways, so he hardened his heart.

That is right and that idea is confirmed by the context:


"What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction" (Ro.9:22).

Robert Pate
July 25th, 2015, 11:50 AM
That is right and that idea is confirmed by the context:


"What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction" (Ro.9:22).


Yes, God has done all that he can do to provide salvation for fallen man. The ball is now in humanities court.

One thing that God cannot and will not do, is force someone to believe on his Son Jesus Christ.

Brother Ducky
July 25th, 2015, 06:20 PM
Josh 11:20
For it was the Lord himself who hardened their hearts to wage war against Israel, so that he might destroy them totally, exterminating them without mercy, as the Lord had commanded Moses.

beloved57
July 26th, 2015, 12:43 AM
Yes, God has done all that he can do to provide salvation for fallen man. The ball is now in humanities court.

One thing that God cannot and will not do, is force someone to believe on his Son Jesus Christ.
Invalid comments!

Robert Pate
July 26th, 2015, 04:41 AM
Josh 11:20
For it was the Lord himself who hardened their hearts to wage war against Israel, so that he might destroy them totally, exterminating them without mercy, as the Lord had commanded Moses.


Their hearts were already hardened, Mark 8:17.

God is bringing forth a nation and a people from whom the savior of the world would come.

"One man of you shall chase a thousand: for the Lord your God, he it is that fights for you, as he has promised you" Joshua 23:10.

Totton Linnet
July 26th, 2015, 07:13 AM
Ex 14:4KJV

Now we know where you stand in relation to God's Word.

Absolutely true. I don't think I would like a theology that directly contradicts plain scripture.

Totton Linnet
July 26th, 2015, 07:20 AM
There is no other scripture that says God hardens anyones heart.

It is not in God's nature or character to harden someones heart. Unless like Pharaoh he knew that he would not repent of his evil ways, so he hardened his heart.

What the scripture means is that God confirmed that Pharaohs heart was hard. This is difficult scripture because it does not fit the rest of the Bible. It is out of Gods character.

Perhaps God knew that Pharaoh would harden his heart and not let the Israelites go, so he hardened it further.

All that God does, he does in justice, mercy and righteousness. If you don't believe that, then you should not call yourself a Christian.

"Unless like Pharoah He knew he would not repent of his evil ways"

But according to you God is not allowed to know such things about ANYONE...God is not allowed to foreknow and predestine and choose....

Pharoah and Moses
Cain and Abel
Caiphas and Christ
Herod and the Baptist

ALL may be the children of God according to Pate

Sheep and goats
serpents and doves
wheat and tares
sons of God and children of the wicked one.

All are the same, God doesn't know which is which.

Actually it is the church under this theology which doesn't know, which is why the church by and large is in such a mess.

Robert Pate
July 26th, 2015, 11:26 AM
"Unless like Pharoah He knew he would not repent of his evil ways"

But according to you God is not allowed to know such things about ANYONE...God is not allowed to foreknow and predestine and choose....

Pharoah and Moses
Cain and Abel
Caiphas and Christ
Herod and the Baptist

ALL may be the children of God according to Pate

Sheep and goats
serpents and doves
wheat and tares
sons of God and children of the wicked one.

All are the same, God doesn't know which is which.

Actually it is the church under this theology which doesn't know, which is why the church by and large is in such a mess.



God does not cause or make people to do evil. If you believe that he does, then you should throw your Bible in the trash. Because he is an unjust, unmerciful, unrighteous tyrant that delights in sending pepole to hell and cannot be trusted.

Brother Ducky
July 26th, 2015, 11:51 AM
Their hearts were already hardened, Mark 8:17.

God is bringing forth a nation and a people from whom the savior of the world would come.

"One man of you shall chase a thousand: for the Lord your God, he it is that fights for you, as he has promised you" Joshua 23:10.

Why would you think that the Mark passage has any applicability to the Joshua passage?

Brother Ducky
July 26th, 2015, 11:58 AM
Right, God knows who are his, he also knows who the reprobates are.

This doesn't mean that a reprobate cannot be saved. I have seen some unlikely people become Christians.

Sounds a bit like predestination to me, but with a very poor definition of "reprobate." People are his, or they are not.

Robert Pate
July 26th, 2015, 03:30 PM
Why would you think that the Mark passage has any applicability to the Joshua passage?

People harden their hearts towards Christ and his Gospel. You may be one of them.

Robert Pate
July 26th, 2015, 03:33 PM
Sounds a bit like predestination to me, but with a very poor definition of "reprobate." People are his, or they are not.

HOGWASH!

People are being converted and coming to Christ everyday. The Holy Spirit is in the world calling all to come to Christ, Hebrews 3:15.

beloved57
July 27th, 2015, 01:27 AM
HOGWASH!

People are being converted and coming to Christ everyday. The Holy Spirit is in the world calling all to come to Christ, Hebrews 3:15.
Those God called are Justified and Glorified Rom 8:30!

Nanja
July 27th, 2015, 05:25 AM
God is Sovereign in all that He does, and He alone determines the will
of all those He Created: The Elect, as well as the non-elect.


The vessels of wrath God fitted / prepared for destruction in Rom. 9:23
are the same as those who were reserved for the day of destruction Job 21:30:
The non-elect God made for the day of evil Prov, 16:4;
those God ordained to be condemned Jude 1:4; John 3:18.

Dan. 4:35 And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing:
and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among
the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say unto him,
What doest thou?

Job 23:13 But he is in one mind, and who can turn him? and
what his soul desireth, even that he doeth.

~~~~~

Robert Pate
July 27th, 2015, 07:13 AM
Those God called are Justified and Glorified Rom 8:30!


Romans 8:29, 30, does not say that anyone was predestinated to eternal life. What it does say is..."They were predestinated to be conformed to the image of his Son".

There is no scripture anywhere in the Bible about anyone being predestinated to heaven or to hell.

beloved57
July 27th, 2015, 07:15 AM
Romans 8:29, 30, does not say that anyone was predestinated to eternal life. What it does say is..."They were predestinated to be conformed to the image of his Son".

There is no scripture anywhere in the Bible about anyone being predestinated to heaven or to hell.

There's a scripture that says they whom God called them He also Justified and Glorified Rom 8:30

Robert Pate
July 27th, 2015, 07:17 AM
God is Sovereign in all that He does, and He alone determines the will
of all those He Created: The Elect, as well as the non-elect.


The vessels of wrath God fitted / prepared for destruction in Rom. 9:23
are the same as those who were reserved for the day of destruction Job 21:30:
The non-elect God made for the day of evil Prov, 16:4;
those God ordained to be condemned Jude 1:4; John 3:18.

Dan. 4:35 And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing:
and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among
the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say unto him,
What doest thou?

Job 23:13 But he is in one mind, and who can turn him? and
what his soul desireth, even that he doeth.

~~~~~


God does NOTHING outside of his holy nature.

All that he does is according to his just, merciful, righteous nature.

He cannot and will not violate who he is.

He is holy, holy, holy, beyond human comprehension.

Robert Pate
July 27th, 2015, 07:21 AM
There's a scripture that says they whom God called them He also Justified and Glorified Rom 8:30


You are assuming that the scripture teachs predestination. But it doesn't.

Paul is not a Calvinist and then justified by faith. They are opposing doctrines.

beloved57
July 27th, 2015, 07:33 AM
You are assuming that the scripture teachs predestination. But it doesn't.

Paul is not a Calvinist and then justified by faith. They are opposing doctrines.
What does Rom 8:30 say about them Called by God?

Nanja
July 27th, 2015, 07:35 AM
God does NOTHING outside of his holy nature.

All that he does is according to his just, merciful, righteous nature.

He cannot and will not violate who he is.

He is holy, holy, holy, beyond human comprehension.


God is Holy and does according to His Sovereign Will.
Yet you continue in your audacity to blaspheme God,
judging His Righteousness according to your own carnal wisdom.

Those who consistently refuse to believe all of the scriptures,
such as yourself, are the lost, whose minds the devil has blinded,
and all according to God's Purpose 2 Cor. 4:3-4.


2 Tim. 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God,
and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction,
for instruction in righteousness:



I believe all of the Scriptures including these:


Originally Posted by Nanja
God is Sovereign in all that He does, and He alone determines the will
of all those He Created: The Elect, as well as the non-elect.


The vessels of wrath God fitted / prepared for destruction in Rom. 9:23
are the same as those who were reserved for the day of destruction Job 21:30:
The non-elect God made for the day of evil Prov, 16:4;
those God ordained to be condemned Jude 1:4; John 3:18.

Dan. 4:35 And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing:
and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among
the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say unto him,
What doest thou?

Job 23:13 But he is in one mind, and who can turn him? and
what his soul desireth, even that he doeth.


~~~~~

Robert Pate
July 27th, 2015, 09:07 AM
God is Holy and does according to His Sovereign Will.
Yet you continue in your audacity to blaspheme God,
judging His Righteousness according to your own carnal wisdom.

Those who consistently refuse to believe all of the scriptures,
such as yourself, are the lost, whose minds the devil has blinded,
and all according to God's Purpose 2 Cor. 4:3-4.


2 Tim. 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God,
and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction,
for instruction in righteousness:



I believe all of the Scriptures including these:



~~~~~


God's Holy, Just, Merciful, Righteous nature is NOT overided by his sovereignty.

All that God is and all that God does, he does within the frame work of his Holy just nature.

This is why you have NOT been predestinated around His Son Jesus Christ.

You are a sinner. You need to be justified by the doing and the dying of Jesus, Romans 3:26.

You need to become a Christ believing and trusting, "Whosoever".

"Whosoever that shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved" Romans 10:13.

Robert Pate
July 27th, 2015, 09:10 AM
What does Rom 8:30 say about them Called by God?

The call is to come and trust in Christ for your salvation.

NOT to becoming a Calvinist.

beloved57
July 27th, 2015, 09:12 AM
The call is to come and trust in Christ for your salvation.

NOT to becoming a Calvinist.
What did it say about them He Called? Read it!

beloved57
July 27th, 2015, 09:26 AM
God's Holy, Just, Merciful, Righteous nature is NOT overided by his sovereignty.

All that God is and all that God does, he does within the frame work of his Holy just nature.

This is why you have NOT been predestinated around His Son Jesus Christ.

You are a sinner. You need to be justified by the doing and the dying of Jesus, Romans 3:26.

You need to become a Christ believing and trusting, "Whosoever".

"Whosoever that shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved" Romans 10:13.

Those Christ lived and died for have believed, He believed for them since He kept the Law for them!

beloved57
July 27th, 2015, 09:36 AM
I mean, i would believe you if other scripture didn't say the exact opposite :o)

I don't care if you don't believe me! Christ fulfilled the Law for them He lived and died for!

Robert Pate
July 27th, 2015, 04:05 PM
I don't care if you don't believe me! Christ fulfilled the Law for them He lived and died for!


Jesus Christ is God's new Adam and humanities new representative.

What he did he did for all, so that now, "Whosoever that shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved" Romans 10:13.

beloved57
July 27th, 2015, 04:09 PM
Jesus Christ is God's new Adam and humanities new representative.

What he did he did for all, so that now, "Whosoever that shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved" Romans 10:13.

All for whom Christ lived and died for, He did everything for them for God to save them! He obeyed Gods Law Perfectly for them, He believed God for them!

You don't believe that do you?

Robert Pate
July 27th, 2015, 04:15 PM
All for whom Christ lived and died for, He did everything for them for God to save them! He obeyed Gods Law Perfectly for them, He believed God for them!

You don't believe that do you?

The scripture says... "God so loved the world" John 3:16.

If God so loved the world, then God provided salvation for the whole world, 1 John 2:2.

Nanja
July 27th, 2015, 05:11 PM
The scripture says... "God so loved the world" John 3:16.

If God so loved the world, then God provided salvation for the whole world, 1 John 2:2.


Pate, You need to understand what the word "world" constitutes according to the scriptures:

www.theologyonline.com/forums/showthread.php?p=4363277#post4363277#1656


The World of Jn 3:16-17 !

Part 1 thru 3:
http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showthread.php?p=4327237#892

~~~~~

beloved57
July 27th, 2015, 05:33 PM
The scripture says... "God so loved the world" John 3:16.

If God so loved the world, then God provided salvation for the whole world, 1 John 2:2.
Those Christ lived and died for, He did everything they needed to be done to be saved! They by Him have obeyed Gods Law Perfectly! You don't believe that do you?

Robert Pate
July 27th, 2015, 07:03 PM
Pate, You need to understand what the word "world" constitutes according to the scriptures:

www.theologyonline.com/forums/showthread.php?p=4363277#post4363277#1656


The World of Jn 3:16-17 !

Part 1 thru 3:
http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showthread.php?p=4327237#892

~~~~~



The only way that you can make your doctrine work is to delete words, change words, or add words.

In other words you have to pervert and divert God's word, which you do.

Do you really believe that Paul was a Calvinist?

Paul taught justification by faith, Romans 4:1, 2, 3, 4.

Where does Paul say that he was predestinated? Where does it say that anyone was predestinated to heaven or to hell?

beloved57
July 27th, 2015, 10:02 PM
The only way that you can make your doctrine work is to delete words, change words, or add words.

In other words you have to pervert and divert God's word, which you do.

Do you really believe that Paul was a Calvinist?

Paul taught justification by faith, Romans 4:1, 2, 3, 4.

Where does Paul say that he was predestinated? Where does it say that anyone was predestinated to heaven or to hell?

Since when did you believe what Paul believed? You teach salvation by works, by what a person does!

You teach that millions upon millions for whom Christ lived and died for shall wind up in hell for their sins, making God unjust!

Robert Pate
July 28th, 2015, 05:08 AM
Since when did you believe what Paul believed? You teach salvation by works, by what a person does!

You teach that millions upon millions for whom Christ lived and died for shall wind up in hell for their sins, making God unjust!


You had better do something.

You are resting in your predestination, when you should be resting in Christ.

John Calvin is not going to save you.

beloved57
July 28th, 2015, 06:27 AM
You had better do something.

You are resting in your predestination, when you should be resting in Christ.

John Calvin is not going to save you.

Paul Preached Predestination as Part of His Gospel of Grace Message Eph 1:3-6

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:

4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

You reject Predestination, remember !

Robert Pate
July 28th, 2015, 06:47 AM
Paul Preached Predestination as Part of His Gospel of Grace Message Eph 1:3-6

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:

4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

You reject Predestination, remember !


Ephesians 1:3-6.

Does not say that God predestinated anyone to heaven or to hell.

What it does say is that before the foundation of the world God chose all of humanity in his Son Jesus Christ.

How else are you going to be holy and without blame?

We are all children of God in Jesus Christ.

We are made acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.

Wake up! You have been deceived by a heretic.

beloved57
July 28th, 2015, 07:23 AM
Ephesians 1:3-6.

Does not say that God predestinated anyone to heaven or to hell.

What it does say is that before the foundation of the world God chose all of humanity in his Son Jesus Christ.

How else are you going to be holy and without blame?

We are all children of God in Jesus Christ.

We are made acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.

Wake up! You have been deceived by a heretic.

Once you reject predestination, you reject Salvation by Grace ! Paul Preached it !

Robert Pate
July 28th, 2015, 08:40 AM
Once you reject predestination, you reject Salvation by Grace ! Paul Preached it !


There is no grace in a God that predestinates people to hell for no reason.

You have got the wrong God.

beloved57
July 28th, 2015, 05:24 PM
There is no grace in a God that predestinates people to hell for no reason.

You have got the wrong God.

Evil speaking against God!

Dialogos
July 28th, 2015, 05:42 PM
Calvinist want us to believe that God is unjust, unmercilful and unrighteous, because that is what they believe that he is.

Lie#1.




If you believe that God chose "some certain persons" to be saved and damned the rest to hell, then you would be justified in believing that about God.

You would be justified in your own mind but if you actually read Romans 9 you would know that God didn't ask any of us what we would do were we in His position.



They frequently refer to Romans chapter 9 to make their point. I have done an indepth study of Romans 9 and have found that their beliefs and accusations are false. This article is rather lenghty. Please bear with me.

This should be fun(ny)....



Romans 9:1-5. The oracles of God were committed to the Jews. They were God's chosen people in the sense that it would be through the Jewish people that the savior of the world would come. Just as the Jews were the keepers of the law and the oracles of God, it was also God's plan that they would also be the keepers of the Gospel. It didn't completely work out that way.

This is an assertion, an unjustifiable assertion. But probably no terribly relevant in the final analysis.



Romans 9:6-9. "They are not all Israel which are Israel". Abraham had spiritual descendants and physical descendants. The spiritual descendants of Abraham are Gods people and are Christians. "In Isaac shall thy seed be called" Isaac had two sons, Jacob and Esau.

Sort of. Paul is explaining how it is there are so few saved Jews. Paul points out that not all physical Jews are spiritual Jews.



Romans 9:10-16. It was Gods plan that Jacob was to be one of the Patriarchs that would lead to Christ. Only one son could be a Patriarch. God chose Jacob. Esau was not a spiritual descendant of Abraham. Esau was of the flesh. He was more concerned about the things of the flesh than spiritual things. Jacob loved the spiritual things of God. Jacob loved God. It is only natural that God would love those that love him.

Here is where Pate goes off the rails and it is completely understandable as to why. In Pate's theology, God doesn't predestine in any meaningful way, therefore Pate must somehow sneak the notion that God's choice of Jacob is someway attributable to something meritorious in Jacob rather than God's sovereign choice. Thus Pate talks about how Jacob loved God, loved the spiritual things of God, etc...

But that's not what the text says at all.

Pate's commentary on the verse is actually contradicted by the verse itself!



And not only so, but also when Rebekah had conceived children by one man, our forefather Isaac, though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad-- in order that God's purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of him who calls-- she was told, "The older will serve the younger." As it is written, "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated." What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God's part? By no means! For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. (Romans 9:10-16 ESV)

Pate comments and implies that God chose Jacob because Jacob loved the spiritual things of God. The text completely precludes this taking great pains to point out that God chose before either were born or had done anything good or bad.

Pate, can you please explain to us why you skipped over this important detail in order to provide commentary that is actually, directly contradicted by the text you are attempting to comment upon?

Lets start there....

aikido7
July 28th, 2015, 05:48 PM
Since Calvin came hundreds of years after the Apostle Paul was alive, he is interpreting Paul's gospel with his own agenda showing.

In that respect, John Calvin is no different from any other Christian theologian.

Robert Pate
July 29th, 2015, 06:55 AM
The Gospel and justification by faith refutes Calvinism.

The Gospel is about how God justifies the ungodly, Romans 4:5 and reconciles the world unto God, 2 Corinthians 5:18, 19.

There is no room in the Gospel for predestination or Calvinism.

The scripture plainly tells us that God is no respector of persons, Acts 10:34. Yet Calvinist contend that they were chosen by God before the foundation of the world to be his own special people.

THERE IS NO SCRIPTURE ANYWHERE IN THE BIBLE THAT SAYS GOD HAS PREDESTINATED ANYONE TO HEAVEN OR TO HELL.

Where do these Calvinist get the idea that God does? They get it from a heretic called John Calvin.

They would rather believe the words of a heretic than to believe the Bible.

If the doctrine of predestination were true this would be major, major, major doctrine and the Bible would be full of it, there is nothing.

It would say..."And God predestinated Pharaoh to hell" There is nothing like that. Nor does it say that Esau was predestinated to hell.

There is no scripture about anyone being predestinated either to heaven or to hell. The Whole Calvinist doctrine is built upon assumptions. They are assuming that the scriptures teach predestination, when in reality it doesn't.

Dialogos
July 29th, 2015, 11:22 AM
The Gospel and justification by faith refutes Calvinism.

Uh, no, no it doesn't.



The Gospel is about how God justifies the ungodly,

Robert said, contradicting himself.



Romans 4:5 and reconciles the world unto God, 2 Corinthians 5:18, 19.

We've been through these verses before and Pate's interpretation logically leads to universalism.

Pate claims that, at the final judgment. God imputes sin back to those who refuse to believe the gospel. He does so despite the fact that John 3:18 refutes him.



There is no room in the Gospel for predestination or Calvinism.

I, of course, disagree.



The scripture plainly tells us that God is no respector of persons, Acts 10:34.

Meaning that God does not prefer Jews over gentiles...

Way to rip that one right out of context, Bob.



Yet Calvinist contend that they were chosen by God before the foundation of the world to be his own special people.

Calvinist contend that believers in Jesus were chosen by God before the foundation of the world...yes we do.



THERE IS NO SCRIPTURE ANYWHERE IN THE BIBLE THAT SAYS GOD HAS PREDESTINATED ANYONE TO HEAVEN OR TO HELL.

Here Pate sets up his standard. If the bible doesn't state it in the way Robert expects, it doesn't count. So we can point out clear verses like John 6:44 and Pate will ignore the clear implications.



Where do these Calvinist get the idea that God does?

The bible.



They get it from a heretic called John Calvin.

Lets kick Calvin around some...

:rolleyes:

If Pate had read his church history, he would realize that Calvin didn't invent the notion of predestination, he got it from Augustine who in turn got it from his study of the bible.

Lets start with the bible and work our way up rather than starting with theologians and work our way down, shall we?



They would rather believe the words of a heretic than to believe the Bible.

Most Calvinists would believe in the sovereign election of God even if there were no John Calvin, because we get our doctrine from the bible.



If the doctrine of predestination were true this would be major, major, major doctrine and the Bible would be full of it, there is nothing.

It is major doctrine and the bible is replete with references to predestination.

Lets look at some that Pate tries to deal with.



It would say..."And God predestinated Pharaoh to hell" There is nothing like that.

The bible does say the following.


"For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth."
18 So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.
(Rom 9:17-18 ESV)

Did God have mercy on Pharaoh or harden him?

Bob, do you think Pharaoh is in heaven?



Nor does it say that Esau was predestinated to hell.

It does say the following.


(Romans 9:11-16 ESV) though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad-- in order that God's purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of him who calls-- she was told, "The older will serve the younger." As it is written, "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated." What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God's part? By no means! For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy.

Who received mercy, Jacob or Esau?


Finally, Robert. Will you get around to answering my question?


Pate comments and implies that God chose Jacob because Jacob loved the spiritual things of God. The text completely precludes this taking great pains to point out that God chose before either were born or had done anything good or bad.

Pate, can you please explain to us why you skipped over this important detail in order to provide commentary that is actually, directly contradicted by the text you are attempting to comment upon?

beloved57
July 29th, 2015, 11:39 AM
The Gospel and justification by faith refutes Calvinism.

The Gospel is about how God justifies the ungodly, Romans 4:5 and reconciles the world unto God, 2 Corinthians 5:18, 19.

There is no room in the Gospel for predestination or Calvinism.

The scripture plainly tells us that God is no respector of persons, Acts 10:34. Yet Calvinist contend that they were chosen by God before the foundation of the world to be his own special people.

THERE IS NO SCRIPTURE ANYWHERE IN THE BIBLE THAT SAYS GOD HAS PREDESTINATED ANYONE TO HEAVEN OR TO HELL.

Where do these Calvinist get the idea that God does? They get it from a heretic called John Calvin.

They would rather believe the words of a heretic than to believe the Bible.

If the doctrine of predestination were true this would be major, major, major doctrine and the Bible would be full of it, there is nothing.

It would say..."And God predestinated Pharaoh to hell" There is nothing like that. Nor does it say that Esau was predestinated to hell.

There is no scripture about anyone being predestinated either to heaven or to hell. The Whole Calvinist doctrine is built upon assumptions. They are assuming that the scriptures teach predestination, when in reality it doesn't.

Predestination is a Gospel of Gods grace Truth Eph 1:4-6

4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

Rom 8:29-30

29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren
.
30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

Thats Predestination to Christ likeness, which is Salvation !

Brother Ducky
July 29th, 2015, 01:58 PM
Ephesians 1:3-6.]

What it does say is that before the foundation of the world God chose all of humanity in his Son Jesus Christ.


We are all children of God in Jesus Christ.

We are made acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.

In Ephesians 2:3 Paul indicates that the believer, "we," are by nature children/objects of wrath. It would seem that your theology of all people being children of God is bogus.

Robert Pate
July 30th, 2015, 07:04 AM
Uh, no, no it doesn't.


Robert said, contradicting himself.


We've been through these verses before and Pate's interpretation logically leads to universalism.

Pate claims that, at the final judgment. God imputes sin back to those who refuse to believe the gospel. He does so despite the fact that John 3:18 refutes him.


I, of course, disagree.


Meaning that God does not prefer Jews over gentiles...

Way to rip that one right out of context, Bob.


Calvinist contend that believers in Jesus were chosen by God before the foundation of the world...yes we do.


Here Pate sets up his standard. If the bible doesn't state it in the way Robert expects, it doesn't count. So we can point out clear verses like John 6:44 and Pate will ignore the clear implications.


The bible.


Lets kick Calvin around some...

:rolleyes:

If Pate had read his church history, he would realize that Calvin didn't invent the notion of predestination, he got it from Augustine who in turn got it from his study of the bible.

Lets start with the bible and work our way up rather than starting with theologians and work our way down, shall we?


Most Calvinists would believe in the sovereign election of God even if there were no John Calvin, because we get our doctrine from the bible.


It is major doctrine and the bible is replete with references to predestination.

Lets look at some that Pate tries to deal with.


The bible does say the following.


"For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth."
18 So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.
(Rom 9:17-18 ESV)

Did God have mercy on Pharaoh or harden him?

Bob, do you think Pharaoh is in heaven?


It does say the following.


(Romans 9:11-16 ESV) though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad-- in order that God's purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of him who calls-- she was told, "The older will serve the younger." As it is written, "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated." What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God's part? By no means! For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy.

Who received mercy, Jacob or Esau?


Finally, Robert. Will you get around to answering my question?


Pate comments and implies that God chose Jacob because Jacob loved the spiritual things of God. The text completely precludes this taking great pains to point out that God chose before either were born or had done anything good or bad.

Pate, can you please explain to us why you skipped over this important detail in order to provide commentary that is actually, directly contradicted by the text you are attempting to comment upon?


The word "Predestination" only appears in the Bible 4 times. How can you say that the Bible is replete with it? And then none of it is about anyone being predestinated to heaven or to hell.

Nowhere does it say that God has predestinated anyone to heaven or to hell. No, not Pharaoh, nor Esau.

You try to read a lot of things into the Bible that are not there.

beloved57
July 30th, 2015, 09:04 AM
The word "Predestination" only appears in the Bible 4 times. How can you say that the Bible is replete with it? And then none of it is about anyone being predestinated to heaven or to hell.

Nowhere does it say that God has predestinated anyone to heaven or to hell. No, not Pharaoh, nor Esau.

You try to read a lot of things into the Bible that are not there.

Predestination is a Gospel of Gods Grace Truth which you don't believe Eph 1:3-6!

Robert Pate
July 30th, 2015, 09:13 AM
Predestination is a Gospel of Gods grace Truth Eph 1:4-6

4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

Rom 8:29-30

29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren
.
30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

Thats Predestination to Christ likeness, which is Salvation !



The Bible knows NOTHING of a individual predestination. Simply because God is no respector of persons, Acts 10:34. God does everything corporately in by and through Jesus Christ.

God has Chosen all of humanity in his Son Jesus Christ, Ephesians 1:4.

God sees ALL THINGS in His Son Jesus Christ, Colossians 1:20.

beloved57
July 30th, 2015, 09:16 AM
The Bible knows NOTHING of a individual predestination. Simply because God is no respector of persons, Acts 10:34. God does everything corporately in by and through Jesus Christ.

God has Chosen all of humanity in his Son Jesus Christ, Ephesians 1:4.

God sees ALL THINGS in His Son Jesus Christ, Colossians 1:20.

The Bible Teaches Indiviual Predestination in the Gospel Eph 1:3-6 who do you think the us are but infividual believers ?

Robert Pate
July 30th, 2015, 09:29 AM
The Bible Teaches Indiviual Predestination in the Gospel Eph 1:3-6 who do you think the us are but infividual believers ?


What do you think that this means"?

"According as he has chosen "us" in him before the foundation of the world".

The "US" is all of humanity.

Remember, God is no respector of persons, Acts 10:34.

beloved57
July 30th, 2015, 10:59 AM
What do you think that this means"?

"According as he has chosen "us" in him before the foundation of the world".

The "US" is all of humanity.

Remember, God is no respector of persons, Acts 10:34.
So in spite of scripture you continue to reject the truth that God predestinated individuals to Salvation! Ephesians 1:3-6! What you think Us means if not individuals? You think it means animals or gold fish!

Robert Pate
July 30th, 2015, 12:13 PM
So in spite of scripture you continue to reject the truth that God predestinated individuals to Salvation! Ephesians 1:3-6! What you think Us means if not individuals? You think it means animals or gold fish!

The Bible does not say that God predestinates anyone to heaven or to hell. Show me the scripture.

Jesus is God's elect man. He is the one that was chosen before the foundation of the world. We become God's elect by faith in Jesus and his Gospel.

beloved57
July 30th, 2015, 12:16 PM
The Bible does not say that God predestinates anyone to heaven or to hell. Show me the scripture.

Jesus is God's elect man. He is the one that was chosen before the foundation of the world. We become God's elect by faith in Jesus and his Gospel.
You the one looking foolish here bud, Ephesians 1:3-6 is the bible!

Dialogos
July 30th, 2015, 12:32 PM
The word "Predestination" only appears in the Bible 4 times. How can you say that the Bible is replete with it?

The Greek word προορίζω occurs 6 times. How many times does it have to occur before we take it seriously?

The word "elect" is in the bible 23 times, and the word.

Nevertheless, counting how many times a word shows up is probably the worst way to do theology.

The bible only has to say something once for it to be true. And the best way to determine doctrine is to carefully exegete the passage(s) and then come to a conclusion.




And then none of it is about anyone being predestinated to heaven or to hell.

It does say that those who are predestined are the same ones that are glorified (Romans 8:29-30). If being glorified isn't about going to heaven then you are going to have to explain to us all what it means.



Nowhere does it say that God has predestinated anyone to heaven or to hell. No, not Pharaoh, nor Esau.

Lets take Pharaoh for example, is he in heaven or hell do you think?



You try to read a lot of things into the Bible that are not there.
Said Robert, hypocritically....

If you will take the time to actually engage my two previous posts you will find that I show precisely where you read something into Romans 9:10-16 that not only isn't in the text, your commentary is actually the antithesis of what the text actually says.

Remember this Bob?



Here is where Pate goes off the rails and it is completely understandable as to why. In Pate's theology, God doesn't predestine in any meaningful way, therefore Pate must somehow sneak the notion that God's choice of Jacob is someway attributable to something meritorious in Jacob rather than God's sovereign choice. Thus Pate talks about how Jacob loved God, loved the spiritual things of God, etc...

But that's not what the text says at all.

Pate's commentary on the verse is actually contradicted by the verse itself!



And not only so, but also when Rebekah had conceived children by one man, our forefather Isaac, though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad-- in order that God's purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of him who calls-- she was told, "The older will serve the younger." As it is written, "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated." What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God's part? By no means! For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. (Romans 9:10-16 ESV)


Pate comments and implies that God chose Jacob because Jacob loved the spiritual things of God. The text completely precludes this taking great pains to point out that God chose before either were born or had done anything good or bad.

Pate, can you please explain to us why you skipped over this important detail in order to provide commentary that is actually, directly contradicted by the text you are attempting to comment upon?






Now, why don't you level with me. Are you going to address this challenge or no?

Robert Pate
July 30th, 2015, 02:23 PM
You the one looking foolish here bud, Ephesians 1:3-6 is the bible!


What does "Chose us in him" mean to you?

Robert Pate
July 30th, 2015, 02:31 PM
The Greek word προορίζω occurs 6 times. How many times does it have to occur before we take it seriously?

The word "elect" is in the bible 23 times, and the word.

Nevertheless, counting how many times a word shows up is probably the worst way to do theology.

The bible only has to say something once for it to be true. And the best way to determine doctrine is to carefully exegete the passage(s) and then come to a conclusion.



It does say that those who are predestined are the same ones that are glorified (Romans 8:29-30). If being glorified isn't about going to heaven then you are going to have to explain to us all what it means.


Lets take Pharaoh for example, is he in heaven or hell do you think?


Said Robert, hypocritically....

If you will take the time to actually engage my two previous posts you will find that I show precisely where you read something into Romans 9:10-16 that not only isn't in the text, your commentary is actually the antithesis of what the text actually says.

Remember this Bob?








Now, why don't you level with me. Are you going to address this challenge or no?


What challenge?

There is no election without a purpose.

It was God's plan that Jacob was to be a patriarch that would lead to Christ.

The scripture says, "That the PURPOSE of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calls" Romans 9:11.

Mary was also called to be the mother of Jesus.

beloved57
July 30th, 2015, 02:43 PM
What does "Chose us in him" mean to you?

Read my threads !

Robert Pate
July 30th, 2015, 02:48 PM
Read my threads !


Answer the question.

God chose all of humanity in Jesus Christ.

Jesus Christ is God's new Adam and our new humanity.

beloved57
July 30th, 2015, 03:05 PM
Answer the question.

God chose all of humanity in Jesus Christ.

Jesus Christ is God's new Adam and our new humanity.
I answered with read my Threads, they tell you what I believe about being in Christ, a extensive answer at that!

Robert Pate
July 30th, 2015, 03:07 PM
I answered with read my Threads, they tell you what I believe about being in Christ, a extensive answer at that!

When you are stumped it is always "Read my threads".

beloved57
July 30th, 2015, 03:10 PM
When you are stumped it is always "Read my threads".
You asked me what I believe!

Nanja
July 30th, 2015, 03:54 PM
What do you think that this means"?
"According as he has chosen "us" in him before the foundation of the world".


Read in context, they are individuals who are believers.

That's who Paul is addressing in Eph. 1:1: "to the saints...to the faithful in Christ Jesus";
chosen and predestinated to become God's Children Eph. 1:4-5.
God predestinated them to inherit Eternal Life Eph. 1:11.


Pate

The "US" is all of humanity.


Incorrect! Humanity is comprised of two groups of people:

1) The Sheep whom Christ gave His Life for John 10:11; 15
who have been given Eternal Life John 10:28.


2) The Goats or tares which the devil sowed into the world:
who have been predestined or ordained to be condemned Jude 1:4;
and the same group is also referred to as vessels of wrath
fitted for destruction Rom. 9:22.
God never loved them or their father John 8:44!


Mat. 13:38-39

(v.38) The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom;
but the tares are the children of the wicked one; (v.39)
The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world;
and the reapers are the angels. (v.40) As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire;
so shall it be in the end of this world.


Pate

Remember, God is no respector of persons, Acts 10:34.


Verse 34 is ended with a colon which points to the explanation coming in verse 35. So they must be read together:

Acts 10:34-35 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:
(v.35) But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.


It matters not which nation an individual is from (jew or gentile), but what matters is whether he fears God
and works righteousness, which points to only God's Elect.

Only they are made Righteous in Christ, their Covenant Head and Surety Rom. 5:19; Eph. 1:7, and Fear God Acts 13:26.

God Loves every one that He had Chosen in Christ to be His Adopted Children Eph. 1:4-5; John 13:33-34!

~~~~~

Cons&Spires
July 30th, 2015, 03:59 PM
Calvinist want us to believe that God is unjust, unmercilful and unrighteous

Calvinists believe that God is exactly the opposite. The thing is, a lot of people are naive about God- He does not play, and often times, from a human perspective, He comes off as overly severe.

beloved57
July 30th, 2015, 05:16 PM
Read in context, they are individuals who are believers.

That's who Paul is addressing in Eph. 1:1: "to the saints...to the faithful in Christ Jesus";
chosen and predestinated to become God's Children Eph. 1:4-5.
God predestinated them to inherit Eternal Life Eph. 1:11.


Pate



Incorrect! Humanity is comprised of two groups of people:

1) The Sheep whom Christ gave His Life for John 10:11; 15
who have been given Eternal Life John 10:28.


2) The Goats or tares which the devil sowed into the world:
who have been predestined or ordained to be condemned Jude 1:4;
and the same group is also referred to as vessels of wrath
fitted for destruction Rom. 9:22.
God never loved them or their father John 8:44!


Mat. 13:38-39

(v.38) The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom;
but the tares are the children of the wicked one; (v.39)
The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world;
and the reapers are the angels. (v.40) As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire;
so shall it be in the end of this world.


Pate



Verse 34 is ended with a colon which points to the explanation coming in verse 35. So they must be read together:

Acts 10:34-35 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:
(v.35) But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.


It matters not which nation an individual is from (jew or gentile), but what matters is whether he fears God
and works righteousness, which points to only God's Elect.

Only they are made Righteous in Christ, their Covenant Head and Surety Rom. 5:19; Eph. 1:7, and Fear God Acts 13:26.

God Loves every one that He had Chosen in Christ to be His Adopted Children Eph. 1:4-5; John 13:33-34!

~~~~~
The US is Gods Elect Israel apart from humanity in general Deut 7:6!

Nanja
July 30th, 2015, 05:30 PM
The US is Gods Elect Israel apart from humanity in general Deut 7:6!

Perfectly stated!

~~~~~

Robert Pate
July 31st, 2015, 08:05 AM
The reason that no one has been predestinated is because God does NOTHING outside of his Son Jesus Christ.

Calvinism is a doctrine that leaves out Jesus Christ.

They want to believe that God declared them to be saved.

No one will be saved that has not come to Christ as a repentant sinner.

beloved57
July 31st, 2015, 09:00 AM
The reason that no one has been predestinated is because God does NOTHING outside of his Son Jesus Christ.

Calvinism is a doctrine that leaves out Jesus Christ.

They want to believe that God declared them to be saved.

No one will be saved that has not come to Christ as a repentant sinner.

You still don't believe Eph 1:3-6!

Robert Pate
July 31st, 2015, 12:39 PM
You still don't believe Eph 1:3-6!

You have yet to explain...

"Chose us in HIM".

beloved57
July 31st, 2015, 12:44 PM
You have yet to explain...

"Chose us in HIM".

See my threads!

Robert Pate
July 31st, 2015, 12:47 PM
See my threads!


Stumped again!

beloved57
July 31st, 2015, 12:48 PM
Stumped again!

You evade my explanation!

Robert Pate
July 31st, 2015, 12:53 PM
You evade my explanation!

You don't have an explanation.

Do you think that I am going to pour through your thousands of threads to see what you believe?

beloved57
July 31st, 2015, 01:35 PM
You don't have an explanation.

Do you think that I am going to pour through your thousands of threads to see what you believe?
My threads testify against you! I have explained my points many times but you choose to evade them!

Nanja
July 31st, 2015, 03:12 PM
You still don't believe Eph 1:3-6!


You're right, Pate doesn't believe those scriptures!

Instead of comparing all the scriptures 2 Tim. 3:16; 1 Cor 2:13 to come to Truth,
Pate picks and chooses which scriptures he considers to be valid and disregards all the rest.

He despises Eph. 1:3-6 because those verses testify to the Gospel Truth that God
already decided to have Mercy and give His Grace to only a Limited, particular People
of His own choosing in Christ, for Him to die for as their Head and Surety;
and all before the world even began 2 Tim. 1:9.

To Pate, all of that shows God to be unjust, which is outright blasphemy:
turning God's Grace into lasciviousness Jude 1:4.
It bears evidence of him being in a lost state, and having a blinded mind:

2 Cor. 4:3-4 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:
In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not,
lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

~~~~~

beloved57
July 31st, 2015, 03:14 PM
You're right, Pate doesn't believe those scriptures!

Instead of comparing all the scriptures 2 Tim. 3:16; 1 Cor 2:13 to come to Truth,
Pate picks and chooses which scriptures he considers to be valid and disregards all the rest.

He despises Eph. 1:3-6 because those verses testify to the Gospel Truth that God
already decided to have Mercy and give His Grace to only a Limited, particular People
of His own choosing in Christ, for Him to die for as their Head and Surety;
and all before the world even began 2 Tim. 1:9.

To Pate, all of that shows God to be unjust, which is outright blasphemy:
turning God's Grace into lasciviousness Jude 1:4.
It bears evidence of him being in a lost state, and having a blinded mind:

2 Cor. 4:3-4 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:
In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not,
lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

~~~~~

Amen!

Nanja
July 31st, 2015, 03:49 PM
Amen!


It's a Blessing from God, and according to His Will and Purpose,
that you're here on this forum preaching pure Gospel Truth!


2 Cor. 2:14-17
(v.14) Now thanks be unto God, which always causeth us to triumph in Christ,
and maketh manifest the savour of his knowledge by us in every place.
(v.15 ) For we are unto God a sweet savour of Christ, in them that are saved, and in them that perish:
(v.16) To the one we are the savour of death unto death; and to the other the savour of life unto life.
And who is sufficient for these things? (v.17) For we are not as many, which corrupt the word of God:
but as of sincerity, but as of God, in the sight of God speak we in Christ.

~~~~~

beloved57
July 31st, 2015, 03:52 PM
It's a Blessing from God, and according to His Will and Purpose,
that you're here on this forum preaching pure Gospel Truth!


2 Cor. 2:14-17
(v.14) Now thanks be unto God, which always causeth us to triumph in Christ,
and maketh manifest the savour of his knowledge by us in every place.
(v.15 ) For we are unto God a sweet savour of Christ, in them that are saved, and in them that perish:
(v.16) To the one we are the savour of death unto death; and to the other the savour of life unto life.
And who is sufficient for these things? (v.17) For we are not as many, which corrupt the word of God:
but as of sincerity, but as of God, in the sight of God speak we in Christ.

~~~~~

It is a blessing, something that I could not have done by natural ability !

j4jesus09
July 31st, 2015, 04:11 PM
God causes us supernaturally to know him. To know that the God of Jesus Christ is the real God is not something one can believe naturally. It takes an act of God. This is not given to everyone person. If it was given the same exact way to every person then every person would respond the same right. No, because people are different. It's way more complex then you just make a choice. God is orchestrating so much we could never understand wholly. But we can understand one thing is was already planned.

Robert Pate
July 31st, 2015, 04:31 PM
God causes us supernaturally to know him. To know that the God of Jesus Christ is the real God is not something one can believe naturally. It takes an act of God. This is not given to everyone person. If it was given the same exact way to every person then every person would respond the same right. No, because people are different. It's way more complex then you just make a choice. God is orchestrating so much we could never understand wholly. But we can understand one thing is was already planned.

Romans 1:18, 19, 20, 21. 22, 23.

Robert Pate
July 31st, 2015, 04:36 PM
You're right, Pate doesn't believe those scriptures!

Instead of comparing all the scriptures 2 Tim. 3:16; 1 Cor 2:13 to come to Truth,
Pate picks and chooses which scriptures he considers to be valid and disregards all the rest.

He despises Eph. 1:3-6 because those verses testify to the Gospel Truth that God
already decided to have Mercy and give His Grace to only a Limited, particular People
of His own choosing in Christ, for Him to die for as their Head and Surety;
and all before the world even began 2 Tim. 1:9.

To Pate, all of that shows God to be unjust, which is outright blasphemy:
turning God's Grace into lasciviousness Jude 1:4.
It bears evidence of him being in a lost state, and having a blinded mind:

2 Cor. 4:3-4 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:
In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not,
lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

~~~~~

All I need is one scripture to refute your phony doctrine.

Here it is.

"God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son, that WHOSOEVER believes in him should not perish, but have everlasting life" John 3:16.

Nanja
July 31st, 2015, 05:14 PM
All I need is one scripture to refute your phony doctrine.

Here it is.

"God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son, that WHOSOEVER believes in him should not perish, but have everlasting life" John 3:16.



You don't understand the true meaning of that verse,
and most likely never will 2 Cor. 4:3-4.

~~~~~

Nanja
July 31st, 2015, 05:18 PM
It is a blessing, something that I could not have done by natural ability !


Amen!

God has sufficiently given you the Grace to accomplish exactly that which He has Purposed
in you to bring Glory to Him. And I am a witness to His Grace made manifest in you!

~~~~~

beloved57
July 31st, 2015, 05:38 PM
Amen!

God has sufficiently given you the Grace to accomplish exactly that which He has Purposed
in you to bring Glory to Him. And I am a witness to His Grace made manifest in you!

~~~~~
I am very humbled by your gracious words, May He be Praised!

beloved57
July 31st, 2015, 05:48 PM
All I need is one scripture to refute your phony doctrine.

Here it is.

"God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son, that WHOSOEVER believes in him should not perish, but have everlasting life" John 3:16.

Those Christ lived and died for He believed for them! They have everlasting life and shall never perish!

j4jesus09
July 31st, 2015, 11:53 PM
Romans 1:18, 19, 20, 21. 22, 23.


Yes, is this speaking about every individual or to a certain group of people who would be identified with this scripture? It clearly states who hold the truth in unrighteousness. So right there it identifies who is being spoken of. So who is holding the truth and clearly lying on God? Do you believe everyone knows the truth? The demons know who God is and tremble but they lie on God and accuse etc. It appears there are men out here like that who know the truth but clearly have an agenda to lie against God and His word.

Robert Pate
August 1st, 2015, 07:35 AM
You don't understand the true meaning of that verse,
and most likely never will 2 Cor. 4:3-4.

~~~~~

Please do explain to us the true meaning of John 3:16, also 1 John 2:2 and 1 John 4:14.

We will be waiting to hear your answer.

Robert Pate
August 1st, 2015, 07:42 AM
Yes, is this speaking about every individual or to a certain group of people who would be identified with this scripture? It clearly states who hold the truth in unrighteousness. So right there it identifies who is being spoken of. So who is holding the truth and clearly lying on God? Do you believe everyone knows the truth? The demons know who God is and tremble but they lie on God and accuse etc. It appears there are men out here like that who know the truth but clearly have an agenda to lie against God and His word.


Not everyone wants the truth.

People want to believe what they want to believe.

Problem is that they don't want to believe God. Everything has been revealed in the Bible. Those that do not want to believe God's word pervert and twist the scriptures to their own likeing.

j4jesus09
August 1st, 2015, 12:14 PM
Not everyone wants the truth.



People want to believe what they want to believe.



Problem is that they don't want to believe God. Everything has been revealed in the Bible. Those that do not want to believe God's word pervert and twist the scriptures to their own likeing.


Agreed, that not everyone wants the truth and everything has been revealed in the bible. The point though is God has already worked out this before we existed! That is why the word is the greatest book of PROPHECY. That means it has already happened according to God. The bible reveals this time and time again. We are babies continuing to mature into adults spiritually. Same as a baby coming into more realization about their daddy and mommy. How many godly parents don't teach there children? God individually and intimately teaches us who are his children by his knowledge and not ours. We don't know the number of his children but we continue to pray for each and every individual for God to reveal himself to them. You may say he teaches everyone. But that is that the case? The devil has deceived people that are particularly assigned to him and will have no relationship with God. Judas, pharaoh, etc. so we must not perceive these people as ourselves. They were designed differently for different purposes. God directs a KINGS hearts wherever he chooses. Should we think it would be any different for a common man?

“The king's heart is in the hand of the Lord, as the rivers of water: he turneth it whithersoever he will.”
**Proverbs‬ *21:1‬ *KJV‬

Robert Pate
August 1st, 2015, 02:17 PM
Agreed, that not everyone wants the truth and everything has been revealed in the bible. The point though is God has already worked out this before we existed! That is why the word is the greatest book of PROPHECY. That means it has already happened according to God. The bible reveals this time and time again. We are babies continuing to mature into adults spiritually. Same as a baby coming into more realization about their daddy and mommy. How many godly parents don't teach there children? God individually and intimately teaches us who are his children by his knowledge and not ours. We don't know the number of his children but we continue to pray for each and every individual for God to reveal himself to them. You may say he teaches everyone. But that is that the case? The devil has deceived people that are particularly assigned to him and will have no relationship with God. Judas, pharaoh, etc. so we must not perceive these people as ourselves. They were designed differently for different purposes. God directs a KINGS hearts wherever he chooses. Should we think it would be any different for a common man?

“The king's heart is in the hand of the Lord, as the rivers of water: he turneth it whithersoever he will.”
**Proverbs‬ *21:1‬ *KJV‬


There is much randomness in life and in nature. There are no set rules or predictions for what may happen next or in the future.

"The wind blows where is listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but cannot tell from where it has come and where it goes: so is every one born of the Spirit" John 3:8.

"Every way of a man is right in his own eyes: but the Lord ponders the heart" Proverbs 21:2.

As Christians we are not bound by laws or rules. We have the freedom to live as the Holy Spirit leads us.

Prophecy is not easy to understand. Some things in the Bible have already taken place that many believe are yet to happen.

Nanja
August 1st, 2015, 03:33 PM
Please do explain to us the true meaning of John 3:16, also 1 John 2:2 and 1 John 4:14.

We will be waiting to hear your answer.


Glad to answer your request!


John 3:16
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that
whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.


The only WORLD God Loved and Promised Eternal Life to,
is the world that He gave His only begotten Son,
those God the Father had chosen in Christ before the foundation,
His Elect, the Spiritual Seed of Abraham!

John 17:24
Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am;
that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me:
for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.

Eph. 1:4, 11
According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world,
that we should be holy and without blame Eph 1:7 before him in love:
v.11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated
according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:


Only the Elect were made holy and without blame before God, because Christ was made
their Covenant Head and Surety before the foundation of the world Heb. 7:22, so therefore
the sin they committed in Adam their natural Head, along with all the sins they would ever commit
as they are born in time, have been imputed to Christ in their stead 2 Cor. 5:19, 21; Ps. 32:2.


Titus 1:1-2
Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect,
and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness; v.2 In hope of eternal life,
which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;

God Promised The Elect Eternal Life before the world began.

2 Tim. 1:9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works,
but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

2 Tim. 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, according to the promise of life which is in Christ Jesus,

Jude 1:1 Jude, the servant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James, to them that are sanctified by God the Father,
and preserved in Jesus Christ, and called:

2 Thes. 2:13-14
But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because
God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.


The Elect of God, the Election of Grace Rom. 11:5 are also the Israel which Salvation was Promised to,
the People Christ came to save Mat. 1:21, from all the nations of the earth Dan. 7:14:

Is. 45:17
But Israel shall be saved in the LORD with an everlasting salvation:
ye shall not be ashamed nor confounded world without end.

Ps. 148:14
He also exalteth the horn of his people, the praise of all his saints;
even of the children of Israel, a people near unto him. Praise ye the LORD.

Deut. 7:6-7
For thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God: the LORD thy God hath chosen thee
to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth.
v.7 The LORD did not set his love upon you, nor choose you, because ye were more in number than any people;
for ye were the fewest of all people:



In contrast, however, are those that make up the world that God did not love:

Reprobates Titus 1:16 KJV
Seed of the serpent John 8:44; Mat. 23:33
Seed of the wicked Ps. 37:28 KJV; Mat. 13:38
Ungodly men 2 Pet. 3:7
Vessels of God's Wrath Rom. 9:22
Ordained by God to be condemned Jude 1:4 KJV
Those with blinded minds 2 Cor. 4:4 KJV
Those who remain spiritually Deaf John 8:43, 47

~~~~~

Clete
August 1st, 2015, 04:06 PM
Romans Chapter 9 and Calvinism

I thought I'd start by simply posting my take on the chapter. I thought to take it verse by verse but then I realized that would be entirely too lengthy and not really necessary so I decided just to clearly communicate the way I think the text should be taken without going into that much meticulous detail.

Before I do that though let me say first that I think that the Bible interprets itself and must be taken as a whole but that I also believe that individual passages of Scripture must stand on their own without being logically incoherent. In other words, we are able to determine what a passage of Scripture is saying based solely on the context of the passage itself. We do not need a theological system in place before it is possible to figure out what a section of Scripture is saying. Now, there could be, I suppose, exceptions to this general rule but Romans chapter 9 is certainly not one of them. I'm saying this at the outset because I want to draw attention to the fact that I do not draw upon any theology to interpret this chapter but only upon other Bible passages which the text of Romans 9 makes reference too, all of which couldn't be any clearer and easy to understand than they are. I also bring this up now because I think that this will become important as the conversation goes on because I do not think that the Calvinist take on this chapter makes any logical sense whatsoever. Paul would have to be nearly schizophrenic to write what Calvinists generally say that he wrote in this passage.

Now, with that in mind let's get to it...

The ninth chapter of Romans is speaking about the cutting off of Israel. It is quite clear that Paul is making a case that God cut off Israel and turned instead to the gentiles, and that God is justified in having done so. It will become equally clear that this is all that the chapter is about, and that it has nothing to do with predestination at all.

It helps to see it if one looks at the introduction and summation of the chapter. In the first few verses it is clear that Paul is speaking of Israel and that he is upset by their condition of unbelief...


Romans 9:1 I tell the truth in Christ, I am not lying, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Spirit, 2 that I have great sorrow and continual grief in my heart. 3 For I could wish that I myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my *countrymen according to the flesh, 4 who are Israelites, to whom pertain the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the service of God, and the promises; 5 of whom are the fathers and from whom, according to the flesh, Christ came, who is over all, the eternally blessed God. Amen.

And then in the last few verses Paul sums up the point of what he's just been saying in the previous several verses...


Romans 9:30 What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness of faith; 31 but Israel, pursuing the law of righteousness, has not attained to the law *of righteousness. 32 Why? Because they did not seek it by faith, but as it were, *by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumbling stone. 33 As it is written:
"Behold, I lay in Zion a stumbling stone and rock of offense,
And whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame."

Now, that by itself is probably enough to make it clear what Paul is talking about but what really nails it down is his reference in the body of the chapter to a couple of Old Testament passages, those being Jacob and Esau and then the Potter and the clay story.
It's always a good idea to read any Old Testament passage that is quoted or made reference to in the New, in order to maintain the context of what's being said. (Remember the whole "Bible interpreting the Bible" thing.) So let's take a look at them so that we can be on the same page that Paul was on when he made these references. Doing so will undoubtedly shed additional light on the point he was making.


Romans 9:13 As it is written, "Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated."

This is a direct quote from Malachi 1:2-3 but even the Malachi passage is not referencing the two boys themselves but the nations which came from them. I won't bother quoting it here but even a surface reading of Malachi 1 will confirm that it is talking about a nation not a person.
Likewise, Paul is talking also about a nation. We can tell this for certain because of what is quoted just before in verse 12...


Romans 9:12 "it was said to her, "The older shall serve the younger.""

This is a direct quote from Genesis chapter 25 where it says explicitly that there are two nations in Rebecca's womb...


Genesis 25:23 "And the LORD said to her: "Two nations are in your womb, Two peoples shall be separated from your body; One people shall be stronger than the other, And the older shall serve the younger."

Additionally, even if it didn't explicitly state that it's talking about two nations we could still know for certain that it is anyway because Esau (the older) never served Jacob (the younger). That did not happen, ever.

This passage is very clearly talking about nations and about how God deals with nations not about individuals or how God deals with individuals and Paul by referencing this material was making the exact same point. That's the reason why he referenced it.

Now let's move on to the Potter and the clay story. It is on the same topic and is found in Jeremiah chapter 18...


Jeremiah 18:1The word which came to Jeremiah from the LORD, saying: 2 "Arise and go down to the potter's house, and there I will cause you to hear My words." 3 Then I went down to the potter's house, and there he was, making something at the wheel. 4 And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter; so he made it again into another vessel, as it seemed good to the potter to make.
5 Then the word of the LORD came to me, saying: 6 "O house of Israel, can I not do with you as this potter?" says the LORD. "Look, as the clay is in the potter's hand, so are you in My hand, O house of Israel! 7 The instant I speak concerning a nation and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, to pull down, and to destroy it, 8 if that nation against whom I have spoken turns from its evil, I will relent of the disaster that I thought to bring upon it. 9 And the instant I speak concerning a nation and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it, 10 if it does evil in My sight so that it does not obey My voice, then I will relent concerning the good with which I said I would benefit it.

Okay, that couldn't be any clearer! Jeremiah was making the very point that Paul is making! No wonder Paul referenced this passage, it applies directly to the subject he was dealing with! It IS the subject he was dealing with! Romans 9 and Jeremiah 18 are making the exact same point; they both use the same analogy for the same reasons. For all intent and purposes Romans 9 and Jeremiah 18 are the exact same chapter! The only difference is that in Romans 9 Paul is saying that the principle described in Jeremiah 18 has been carried out by God on the nation of Israel.

Romans 9 is not about predestination at all. Paul didn't start talking about Israel and then suddenly change the subject to predestination and then just as suddenly change the subject back again to Israel. The whole chapter is on one issue and one issue only. That issue being God's absolute right to change His mind concerning His blessing of a nation that had done evil in His sight.
It's no more complicated than that. In a nutshell, Paul was simply saying that Israel's promised kingdom wasn't coming because they had rejected the King and Romans 9 is all about how God was justified in having changed His mind about giving them that kingdom. That's all it's about; nothing more, nothing less.

Resting in Him,
Clete

Clete
August 1st, 2015, 04:21 PM
Glad to answer your request!


John 3:16
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that
whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.


The only WORLD God Loved and Promised Eternal Life to,
is the world that He gave His only begotten Son,
those God the Father had chosen in Christ before the foundation,
His Elect, the Spiritual Seed of Abraham!

John 17:24
Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am;
that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me:
for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.

Eph. 1:4, 11
According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world,
that we should be holy and without blame Eph 1:7 before him in love:
v.11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated
according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:


Only the Elect were made holy and without blame before God, because Christ was made
their Covenant Head and Surety before the foundation of the world Heb. 7:22, so therefore
the sin they committed in Adam their natural Head, along with all the sins they would ever commit
as they are born in time, have been imputed to Christ in their stead 2 Cor. 5:19, 21; Ps. 32:2.


Titus 1:1-2
Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect,
and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness; v.2 In hope of eternal life,
which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;

God Promised The Elect Eternal Life before the world began.

2 Tim. 1:9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works,
but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

2 Tim. 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, according to the promise of life which is in Christ Jesus,

Jude 1:1 Jude, the servant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James, to them that are sanctified by God the Father,
and preserved in Jesus Christ, and called:

2 Thes. 2:13-14
But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because
God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.


The Elect of God, the Election of Grace Rom. 11:5 are also the Israel which Salvation was Promised to,
the People Christ came to save Mat. 1:21, from all the nations of the earth Dan. 7:14:

Is. 45:17
But Israel shall be saved in the LORD with an everlasting salvation:
ye shall not be ashamed nor confounded world without end.

Ps. 148:14
He also exalteth the horn of his people, the praise of all his saints;
even of the children of Israel, a people near unto him. Praise ye the LORD.

Deut. 7:6-7
For thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God: the LORD thy God hath chosen thee
to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth.
v.7 The LORD did not set his love upon you, nor choose you, because ye were more in number than any people;
for ye were the fewest of all people:



In contrast, however, are those that make up the world that God did not love:

Reprobates Titus 1:16 KJV
Seed of the serpent John 8:44; Mat. 23:33
Seed of the wicked Ps. 37:28 KJV; Mat. 13:38
Ungodly men 2 Pet. 3:7
Vessels of God's Wrath Rom. 9:22
Ordained by God to be condemned Jude 1:4 KJV
Those with blinded minds 2 Cor. 4:4 KJV
Those who remain spiritually Deaf John 8:43, 47

~~~~~
Quality example of bringing one's doctrine to the text and why proof texting it a complete waste of time.

An equally good example of why it is impossible to persuade a Calvinist using normal means of communication and plain reason. Regular English words mean different things to Calvinists than they mean to anyone else. When a Calvinist speaks, it all looks and sounds like English but it isn't.

Resting in Him,
Clete

Clete
August 1st, 2015, 04:29 PM
The scripture also says that Pharaoh hardened his own heart, Exodus 8:32 also Exodus 9:34.
God hardening Pharaoh's heart and Pharaoh hardening his own heart are not mutually exclusive to each other.

Miracles, as a general rule, hardens the heart of anyone who witnesses them, especially if the witnesses are already very wicked.

God performed miracles that Pharaoh could not deny. In response Pharaoh hated God all the more. No surprise. Not complicated. Not difficult for God to do without having to force Pharaoh to do anything he didn't want to do.

Resting in Him,
Clete

Robert Pate
August 1st, 2015, 05:16 PM
God hardening Pharaoh's heart and Pharaoh hardening his own heart are not mutually exclusive to each other.

Miracles, as a general rule, hardens the heart of anyone who witnesses them, especially if the witnesses are already very wicked.

God performed miracles that Pharaoh could not deny. In response Pharaoh hated God all the more. No surprise. Not complicated. Not difficult for God to do without having to force Pharaoh to do anything he didn't want to do.

Resting in Him,
Clete


Whatever God did in his relationship with Pharaoh was done in justice and righteousness. God is not unjust, nor is he a sinner.

God did not deliberately harden Pharaohs so that he could vent his wrath upon him. Pharaohs heart was already hardened. Pharaoh was just another wicked man that God used for his own glory. You might say that Pharaoh got what he deserved. Judgment.

Nanja
August 1st, 2015, 05:46 PM
Quality example of bringing one's doctrine to the text and why proof texting it a complete waste of time.

An equally good example of why it is impossible to persuade a Calvinist using normal means of communication and plain reason. Regular English words mean different things to Calvinists than they mean to anyone else. When a Calvinist speaks, it all looks and sounds like English but it isn't.

Resting in Him,
Clete


Comparing scripture with scripture 1 Cor. 2:13 is the biblical hermeneutic !

The bible is God's Word which is Spiritual, for God is Spirit John 4:24.

So in coming to an understanding of His Word, we must go to the original languages
for proper understanding of words: Not regular English words.

1 Cor. 2:13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth,
but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

~~~~~

Clete
August 1st, 2015, 06:26 PM
Comparing scripture with scripture 1 Cor. 2:13 is the biblical hermeneutic !

The bible is God's Word which is Spiritual, for God is Spirit John 4:24.

So in coming to an understanding of His Word, we must go to the original languages
for proper understanding of words: Not regular English words.

1 Cor. 2:13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth,
but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

~~~~~
Yeah, because you're better at translating the Bible than the people who translated the King James, New King James, NIV or whatever other English translation you care to name (Virtually all of whom were Calvinists, by the way.)

Not that there's anything wrong with making reference to the original language but that isn't what you are doing. What you are doing cannot be done by anyone who isn't already a Calvinist. You read the Bible (in any language) with Calvinist colored glasses on and therefore see Calvinism everywhere even though it isn't taught anywhere.

Romans 9 is the perfect example. You Calvinists think its talking about predestination but that topic isn't even brought up anywhere in the whole chapter! It just isn't in there at all and in fact the real topic of the chapter has to do with God having told Israel that He would give them a Kingdom and Paul explaining why God rightly repented concerning the good with which He said He would benefit them.

Incidentally, "repent" is in fact the correct translation of the word used in Jeremiah 18 that is typically translated as "relent" in modern translations. As I said, nearly all of the translators of modern translations are all Calvinists. They just couldn't bring themselves to write the entire letter 'p' and instead wrote the letter 'l' changing "repent" to "relent". Shameful, really.

Resting in Him,
Clete

Clete
August 1st, 2015, 06:36 PM
Whatever God did in his relationship with Pharaoh was done in justice and righteousness. God is not unjust, nor is he a sinner.
Quite so!

There is no injustice in God using the wicked for His purpose.


God did not deliberately harden Pharaohs so that he could vent his wrath upon him.
Of course He did!

Just not in a manner in which Pharaoh's rebellion was a logical necessity in that he could not have repented.

When Moses said " Let my people go!" Pharaoh could have said, "Yeah, Okay!". He CHOSE not to.


Pharaohs heart was already hardened. Pharaoh was just another wicked man that God used for his own glory. You might say that Pharaoh got what he deserved. Judgment.
Whether this is true or not, and I don't dispute it, the text flatly states that God hardened Pharaoh's heart and He did exactly that.
It's the assumption that Pharaoh was forced to do things against his will is where the mistake is made. Its an unwarranted assumption that Calvinists make that is not rational, not stated in the text and not necessary to understand the events as they are recorded in scripture.

All one really needs to understand is what the typical reaction to witnessing an actual, undeniable, supernatural miracle is. Once that is understood any third grader could predict what the likely outcome would be of God sending a man to perform miracles to convince an evil king to do something he doesn't want to do.

Resting in Him,
Clete

Brother Ducky
August 1st, 2015, 10:12 PM
Whatever God did in his relationship with Pharaoh was done in justice and righteousness. God is not unjust, nor is he a sinner.

God did not deliberately harden Pharaohs so that he could vent his wrath upon him. Pharaohs heart was already hardened. Pharaoh was just another wicked man that God used for his own glory. You might say that Pharaoh got what he deserved. Judgment.

Would you admit that God did indeed harden Pharoah's heart?

eddie17
August 1st, 2015, 10:18 PM
Dont put God in a box,there are alot of tough verses in the bible and we have to trust in God through it all,please remember we are mere humans.

beloved57
August 2nd, 2015, 12:55 AM
Romans Chapter 9 and Calvinism

I thought I'd start by simply posting my take on the chapter. I thought to take it verse by verse but then I realized that would be entirely too lengthy and not really necessary so I decided just to clearly communicate the way I think the text should be taken without going into that much meticulous detail.

Before I do that though let me say first that I think that the Bible interprets itself and must be taken as a whole but that I also believe that individual passages of Scripture must stand on their own without being logically incoherent. In other words, we are able to determine what a passage of Scripture is saying based solely on the context of the passage itself. We do not need a theological system in place before it is possible to figure out what a section of Scripture is saying. Now, there could be, I suppose, exceptions to this general rule but Romans chapter 9 is certainly not one of them. I'm saying this at the outset because I want to draw attention to the fact that I do not draw upon any theology to interpret this chapter but only upon other Bible passages which the text of Romans 9 makes reference too, all of which couldn't be any clearer and easy to understand than they are. I also bring this up now because I think that this will become important as the conversation goes on because I do not think that the Calvinist take on this chapter makes any logical sense whatsoever. Paul would have to be nearly schizophrenic to write what Calvinists generally say that he wrote in this passage.

Now, with that in mind let's get to it...

The ninth chapter of Romans is speaking about the cutting off of Israel. It is quite clear that Paul is making a case that God cut off Israel and turned instead to the gentiles, and that God is justified in having done so. It will become equally clear that this is all that the chapter is about, and that it has nothing to do with predestination at all.

It helps to see it if one looks at the introduction and summation of the chapter. In the first few verses it is clear that Paul is speaking of Israel and that he is upset by their condition of unbelief...


Romans 9:1 I tell the truth in Christ, I am not lying, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Spirit, 2 that I have great sorrow and continual grief in my heart. 3 For I could wish that I myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my *countrymen according to the flesh, 4 who are Israelites, to whom pertain the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the service of God, and the promises; 5 of whom are the fathers and from whom, according to the flesh, Christ came, who is over all, the eternally blessed God. Amen.

And then in the last few verses Paul sums up the point of what he's just been saying in the previous several verses...


Romans 9:30 What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness of faith; 31 but Israel, pursuing the law of righteousness, has not attained to the law *of righteousness. 32 Why? Because they did not seek it by faith, but as it were, *by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumbling stone. 33 As it is written:
"Behold, I lay in Zion a stumbling stone and rock of offense,
And whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame."

Now, that by itself is probably enough to make it clear what Paul is talking about but what really nails it down is his reference in the body of the chapter to a couple of Old Testament passages, those being Jacob and Esau and then the Potter and the clay story.
It's always a good idea to read any Old Testament passage that is quoted or made reference to in the New, in order to maintain the context of what's being said. (Remember the whole "Bible interpreting the Bible" thing.) So let's take a look at them so that we can be on the same page that Paul was on when he made these references. Doing so will undoubtedly shed additional light on the point he was making.


Romans 9:13 As it is written, "Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated."

This is a direct quote from Malachi 1:2-3 but even the Malachi passage is not referencing the two boys themselves but the nations which came from them. I won't bother quoting it here but even a surface reading of Malachi 1 will confirm that it is talking about a nation not a person.
Likewise, Paul is talking also about a nation. We can tell this for certain because of what is quoted just before in verse 12...


Romans 9:12 "it was said to her, "The older shall serve the younger.""

This is a direct quote from Genesis chapter 25 where it says explicitly that there are two nations in Rebecca's womb...


Genesis 25:23 "And the LORD said to her: "Two nations are in your womb, Two peoples shall be separated from your body; One people shall be stronger than the other, And the older shall serve the younger."

Additionally, even if it didn't explicitly state that it's talking about two nations we could still know for certain that it is anyway because Esau (the older) never served Jacob (the younger). That did not happen, ever.

This passage is very clearly talking about nations and about how God deals with nations not about individuals or how God deals with individuals and Paul by referencing this material was making the exact same point. That's the reason why he referenced it.

Now let's move on to the Potter and the clay story. It is on the same topic and is found in Jeremiah chapter 18...


Jeremiah 18:1The word which came to Jeremiah from the LORD, saying: 2 "Arise and go down to the potter's house, and there I will cause you to hear My words." 3 Then I went down to the potter's house, and there he was, making something at the wheel. 4 And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter; so he made it again into another vessel, as it seemed good to the potter to make.
5 Then the word of the LORD came to me, saying: 6 "O house of Israel, can I not do with you as this potter?" says the LORD. "Look, as the clay is in the potter's hand, so are you in My hand, O house of Israel! 7 The instant I speak concerning a nation and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, to pull down, and to destroy it, 8 if that nation against whom I have spoken turns from its evil, I will relent of the disaster that I thought to bring upon it. 9 And the instant I speak concerning a nation and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it, 10 if it does evil in My sight so that it does not obey My voice, then I will relent concerning the good with which I said I would benefit it.

Okay, that couldn't be any clearer! Jeremiah was making the very point that Paul is making! No wonder Paul referenced this passage, it applies directly to the subject he was dealing with! It IS the subject he was dealing with! Romans 9 and Jeremiah 18 are making the exact same point; they both use the same analogy for the same reasons. For all intent and purposes Romans 9 and Jeremiah 18 are the exact same chapter! The only difference is that in Romans 9 Paul is saying that the principle described in Jeremiah 18 has been carried out by God on the nation of Israel.

Romans 9 is not about predestination at all. Paul didn't start talking about Israel and then suddenly change the subject to predestination and then just as suddenly change the subject back again to Israel. The whole chapter is on one issue and one issue only. That issue being God's absolute right to change His mind concerning His blessing of a nation that had done evil in His sight.
It's no more complicated than that. In a nutshell, Paul was simply saying that Israel's promised kingdom wasn't coming because they had rejected the King and Romans 9 is all about how God was justified in having changed His mind about giving them that kingdom. That's all it's about; nothing more, nothing less.

Resting in Him,
Clete

Its talking about individuals, Jacob and Easu were individuals, Brothers first and foremost!

beloved57
August 2nd, 2015, 01:09 AM
Whatever God did in his relationship with Pharaoh was done in justice and righteousness. God is not unjust, nor is he a sinner.

God did not deliberately harden Pharaohs so that he could vent his wrath upon him. Pharaohs heart was already hardened. Pharaoh was just another wicked man that God used for his own glory. You might say that Pharaoh got what he deserved. Judgment.

Yes God did deliberately harden the heart of pharaoh in order to fit him for destruction! That's part of the Truth of Rom 9:17-18 ,you are denying it!

He did it with sihon king of heshbon also Deut 2:30!

Clete
August 2nd, 2015, 06:35 AM
Its talking about individuals, Jacob and Easu were individuals, Brothers first and foremost!

Saying it doesn't make it so.

The text flatly states otherwise. As I pointed out in my post...


"Genesis 25:23 "And the LORD said to her: "Two nations are in your womb, Two peoples shall be separated from your body; One people shall be stronger than the other, And the older shall serve the younger."

Additionally, even if it didn't explicitly state that it's talking about two nations we could still know for certain that it is anyway because Esau (the older) never served Jacob (the younger). That did not happen, ever."

Resting in Him,
Clete

P.S. In the future, please refrain from making bald assertions. Make the argument, if you can.

beloved57
August 2nd, 2015, 06:55 AM
Saying it doesn't make it so.

The text flatly states otherwise. As I pointed out in my post...


"Genesis 25:23 "And the LORD said to her: "Two nations are in your womb, Two peoples shall be separated from your body; One people shall be stronger than the other, And the older shall serve the younger."

Additionally, even if it didn't explicitly state that it's talking about two nations we could still know for certain that it is anyway because Esau (the older) never served Jacob (the younger). That did not happen, ever."

Resting in Him,
Clete

P.S. In the future, please refrain from making bald assertions. Make the argument, if you can.

Apparently you don't believe that Jacob and Easu were individuals!

beloved57
August 2nd, 2015, 07:00 AM
Please do explain to us the true meaning of John 3:16, also 1 John 2:2 and 1 John 4:14.

We will be waiting to hear your answer.

All these verses apply to Gods Elect, I have explained that to you on many occasions before! Salvation is promised to only one People, Israel Isa 45:17 which is Gods Elect!

Clete
August 2nd, 2015, 07:08 AM
Apparently you don't believe that Jacob and Easu were individuals!
Apparently, you are stupid.

Either that or you think I am. Either way...

:wave2:

beloved57
August 2nd, 2015, 07:10 AM
Apparently, you are stupid.

Either that or you think I am. Either way...

:wave2:

See you at the Judgment, then you will know that they were two different individuals, twin brothers!

Robert Pate
August 2nd, 2015, 07:20 AM
All these verses apply to Gods Elect, I have explained that to you on many occasions before! Salvation is promised to only one People, Israel Isa 45:17 which is Gods Elect!

According to John 3:16 the promise is to "WHOSOEVER".

"Whosoever that believes".

Nothing about Israel.

beloved57
August 2nd, 2015, 07:30 AM
According to John 3:16 the promise is to "WHOSOEVER".

"Whosoever that believes".

Nothing about Israel.

No it's not stating a promise in John 3:16, a fact is being declared about the end results of the world God loved and gave His Son to died for , God promised Salvation to Israel Isa45:17 when God says something shall be done, that is a promise!

Robert Pate
August 2nd, 2015, 08:11 AM
No it's not stating a promise in John 3:16, a fact is being declared about the end results of the world God loved and gave His Son to died for , God promised Salvation to Israel Isa45:17 when God says something shall be done, that is a promise!

God so loved the world that he saved the world by providing salvation for all of the whosoevers.

"Whosoever that shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved" Romans 10:13.

beloved57
August 2nd, 2015, 08:15 AM
God so loved the world that he saved the world by providing salvation for all of the whosoevers.

"Whosoever that shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved" Romans 10:13.

There's no scripture saying " God so Loved the world that He saved the world by providing salvation for all the whosoevers"! That's a invalid comment!

Robert Pate
August 2nd, 2015, 08:18 AM
There's no scripture saying " God so Loved the world that He saved the world by providing salvation for all the whosoevers"! That's a invalid comment!


Either you can't read or you are just plain stupid.

"Whosoever that shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved" Romans 10:13.

beloved57
August 2nd, 2015, 08:28 AM
God so loved the world that he saved the world by providing salvation for all of the whosoevers.

"Whosoever that shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved" Romans 10:13.

Those calling on Christ's name, Christ believed for them already when He obeyed the Law for them! He is the Author of their Faith, not themselves!

Clete
August 2nd, 2015, 11:28 AM
Perhaps the best argument, (well if not the best maybe the simplest), against Calvinism is to simply point out how they are forced to make simple words mean something other than what they actually mean.

Someone should publish a Calvinist lexicon of the English language.

Nation = A single person.
Whosoever = a specific set of persons.
Repent = Relent
Now I (God) know = God knew all along.
I (God) will remember your sins no longer. = I predestined you to sin and cannot forget anything.

Of course publishing such a text would require an effort equal to, if not greater than reprinting the entire text of Scripture.


Resting in Him,
Clete

beloved57
August 2nd, 2015, 01:13 PM
Perhaps the best argument, (well if not the best maybe the simplest), against Calvinism is to simply point out how they are forced to make simple words mean something other than what they actually mean.

Someone should publish a Calvinist lexicon of the English language.

Nation = A single person.
Whosoever = a specific set of persons.
Repent = Relent
Now I (God) know = God knew all along.
I (God) will remember your sins no longer. = I predestined you to sin and cannot forget anything.

Of course publishing such a text would require an effort equal to, if not greater than reprinting the entire text of Scripture.


Resting in Him,
Clete

Jacob and Easu are individuals ! They are Isaacs son's, they were twins!

Danoh
August 2nd, 2015, 01:13 PM
Perhaps the best argument, (well if not the best maybe the simplest), against Calvinism is to simply point out how they are forced to make simple words mean something other than what they actually mean.

Someone should publish a Calvinist lexicon of the English language.

Nation = A single person.
Whosoever = a specific set of persons.
Repent = Relent
Now I (God) know = God knew all along.
I (God) will remember your sins no longer. = I predestined you to sin and cannot forget anything.

Of course publishing such a text would require an effort equal to, if not greater than reprinting the entire text of Scripture.


Resting in Him,
Clete

Clete, that Open Theism link isn't working:

http://opentheism.info/pdf/sanders/openness_christian_theism.pdf

Checked here, to no avail also:

https://www.google.com/#q=openness_christian_theism.pdf

And here:

https://www.google.com/#q=openness+christian+theism.pdf

Clete
August 2nd, 2015, 01:37 PM
Clete, that Open Theism link isn't working:

http://opentheism.info/pdf/sanders/openness_christian_theism.pdf

Checked here, to no avail also:

https://www.google.com/#q=openness_christian_theism.pdf

And here:

https://www.google.com/#q=openness+christian+theism.pdf
Yeah, I know. Here's a correct link....

Is Open Theism Christian Theism (http://opentheism.info/information/open-theism-christian-theism/)

Clete
August 2nd, 2015, 01:39 PM
Jacob and Easu are individuals ! They are Isaacs son's, they were twins!

So what? How is that even relevant?

Are you suggesting God got it wrong when He said, "Two nations are in your womb"?

glorydaz
August 2nd, 2015, 01:44 PM
So what? How is that even relevant?

Are you suggesting God got it wrong when He said, "Two nations are in your womb"?

Exactly...or that Esau is Edom.


Genesis 36:1 Now these are the generations of Esau, who is Edom.

Genesis 36:8 Thus dwelt Esau in mount Seir: Esau is Edom.

beloved57
August 2nd, 2015, 02:59 PM
So what? How is that even relevant?

Are you suggesting God got it wrong when He said, "Two nations are in your womb"?

No He is not wrong ! Nevertheless do you deny that they were Two individuals in her womb ?

beloved57
August 2nd, 2015, 03:14 PM
Exactly...or that Esau is Edom.


Genesis 36:1 Now these are the generations of Esau, who is Edom.

Genesis 36:8 Thus dwelt Esau in mount Seir: Esau is Edom.

You don't believe that Easu was a individual or Jacob?

Robert Pate
August 2nd, 2015, 06:38 PM
Perhaps the best argument, (well if not the best maybe the simplest), against Calvinism is to simply point out how they are forced to make simple words mean something other than what they actually mean.

Someone should publish a Calvinist lexicon of the English language.

Nation = A single person.
Whosoever = a specific set of persons.
Repent = Relent
Now I (God) know = God knew all along.
I (God) will remember your sins no longer. = I predestined you to sin and cannot forget anything.

Of course publishing such a text would require an effort equal to, if not greater than reprinting the entire text of Scripture.


Resting in Him,
Clete

Your right. They change the meaning of the words in the Bible to try and prove their false doctrine.

Brother Ducky
August 2nd, 2015, 08:08 PM
Your right. They change the meaning of the words in the Bible to try and prove their false doctrine.

Such as: God hardened Pharoah's heart = Pharaoh hardened his own heart?

Or All are in Christ and not all are saved?

Clete
August 2nd, 2015, 11:00 PM
Such as: God hardened Pharoah's heart = Pharaoh hardened his own heart?

In actual fact the text states both.

rougueone
August 3rd, 2015, 12:42 AM
The only way that you can make your doctrine work is to delete words, change words, or add words.

In other words you have to pervert and divert God's word, which you do.

Do you really believe that Paul was a Calvinist?

Paul taught justification by faith, Romans 4:1, 2, 3, 4.

Where does Paul say that he was predestinated? Where does it say that anyone was predestinated to heaven or to hell?

You have the same thread already in the works.
http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4403065&postcount=61

And you started the thread a few days before this one Robert.
http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4402550&postcount=46


First Paul did state he was predestined and I posted this already. Yet you skipped through this instead of addressing it:

Galatians 1:1 “Paul, an apostle—not from men nor through man, but through Jesus Christ and God the Father, who raised him from the dead.”

Colossians 1:1 “Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God.”

First Corinthians 1:1 “Paul, called by the will of God to be an apostle of Christ Jesus.”

And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called ( CHOSEN) ,according to His purpose.

For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand ( PREDESTINED ) ,so that we would walk in them.


also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will,

Romans 8:29--30... For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren. And these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified

http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4403065&postcount=61

Further HEIR called you out on this and you again hopped around her truths:
http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4402534&postcount=45

http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4402503&postcount=41

http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4402141&postcount=17

This post you made borders on Universalism:

http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4402521&postcount=43

Robert, it appears your arguing. Not debating just so you can argue. otherwise if as you state according to your own admittance, you had the answers, yet ignore them.

Here is more you post. Yet ignoring the Scriptures:
The word "predestined" which is usually used by Calvinist and seldom used by Christians, should always be followed with an explanation, or you will always be labeled a Calvinist.

http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4402550&postcount=46

And the Scriptures that absolutely bury your own statement ( again ) :
For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand ( PREDESTINED ) ,so that we would walk in them.


also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will,

Romans 8:29--30... For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren. And these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified

http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4403065&postcount=61


I don't know what your objective is. But I suggest you re-group Robert.

Robert Pate
August 3rd, 2015, 05:30 AM
You have the same thread already in the works.
http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4403065&postcount=61

And you started the thread a few days before this one Robert.
http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4402550&postcount=46


First Paul did state he was predestined and I posted this already. Yet you skipped through this instead of addressing it:

Galatians 1:1 “Paul, an apostle—not from men nor through man, but through Jesus Christ and God the Father, who raised him from the dead.”

Colossians 1:1 “Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God.”

First Corinthians 1:1 “Paul, called by the will of God to be an apostle of Christ Jesus.”

And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called ( CHOSEN) ,according to His purpose.

For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand ( PREDESTINED ) ,so that we would walk in them.


also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will,

Romans 8:29--30... For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren. And these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified

http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4403065&postcount=61

Further HEIR called you out on this and you again hopped around her truths:
http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4402534&postcount=45

http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4402503&postcount=41

http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4402141&postcount=17

This post you made borders on Universalism:

http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4402521&postcount=43

Robert, it appears your arguing. Not debating just so you can argue. otherwise if as you state according to your own admittance, you had the answers, yet ignore them.

Here is more you post. Yet ignoring the Scriptures:
The word "predestined" which is usually used by Calvinist and seldom used by Christians, should always be followed with an explanation, or you will always be labeled a Calvinist.

http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4402550&postcount=46

And the Scriptures that absolutely bury your own statement ( again ) :
For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand ( PREDESTINED ) ,so that we would walk in them.


also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will,

Romans 8:29--30... For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren. And these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified

http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4403065&postcount=61


I don't know what your objective is. But I suggest you re-group Robert.


See my new thread, "God is no respector of persons" Acts 10:34.

Dialogos
August 4th, 2015, 12:25 PM
What challenge?

:doh:

Robert,

You commented on Romans 9:


It was Gods plan that Jacob was to be one of the Patriarchs that would lead to Christ. Only one son could be a Patriarch. God chose Jacob. Esau was not a spiritual descendant of Abraham. Esau was of the flesh. He was more concerned about the things of the flesh than spiritual things. Jacob loved the spiritual things of God. Jacob loved God. It is only natural that God would love those that love him.

You make God's loving Jacob based on Jacob's love for God.

That directly contradicts the text you are commenting on because the scripture says that God set His love on Jacob "before either of them were born!"

:readthis:

(Romans 9:10-13 ESV) And not only so, but also when Rebekah had conceived children by one man, our forefather Isaac, though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad-- in order that God's purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of him who calls-- she was told, "The older will serve the younger." As it is written, "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated."

Do you want another direct contradiction of your commentary and scripture?



Romans 9:17-21. God did not harden Pharaohs heart. If God did that he would be unjust. However, God did use this rebel to demonstrate his power to the Israelites. The scripture is refering to the plagues that God brought upon the Egyptians. "Who has resisted his will?" All have, we are all sinners. God does not create evil people so that he can vent his wrath on them. "The vessels of wrath fitted for destruction" are Christ rejecting unbelievers. "Hath not the potter power over the clay?" Yes, God has the power to create evil people. The scripture does not say that he does. If he did that he would not be just.

This so-called commentary on Romans 8:17-21 is a theological train wreck.

First you say that God didn't harden Pharaoh's heart which is a direct contradiction of the scriptures, see Exodus 4:21.


"And the LORD said to Moses, "When you go back to Egypt, see that you do before Pharaoh all the miracles that I have put in your power. But I will harden his heart, so that he will not let the people go. (Exo 4:21 ESV)"

Second, you have Paul answering "everyone" to the question posed by Paul...


" You will say to me then, "Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?" (Rom 9:19 ESV)"

...which is so eisegetical its embrassing.


Paul's answer isn't "everyone."

It is, "But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, "Why have you made me like this?" (Rom 9:20 ESV)"

Paul's answer is, "who are you to question God's just will?"

And, unfortunately, the common answer that is given to Paul's question in reply is "Oh, I'm special, I get to stand over God and determine when God is acting justly and when He isn't because I'm so smart and holy. I get to judge what God has done based upon what I think God should have done and that's the way I read all passages that contradict my view."

:nono:

So when you say things like...



God did not harden Pharaohs heart. If God did that he would be unjust.

You put your pride and ignorance on parade.

Because scripture flat out says that God hardened Pharaoh's heart and because it illustrates that your attempt to accuse Him of injustice is just another example of someone flapping thier gums where Paul was telling people to shut their yappers.


" But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? (Rom 9:20 ESV)"

Dialogos
August 4th, 2015, 02:27 PM
Perhaps the best argument, (well if not the best maybe the simplest), against Calvinism is to simply point out how they are forced to make simple words mean something other than what they actually mean.

That's fun, lets do the same with open theism.
:chuckle:



Nation = A single person.

Open Theist dictionary.

"twins" = two fully formed people groups. For example, when Rebekah gave birth to Jacob and Esau the "twins" cannot possibly refer to two individuals (despite the fact that twins usually means two individuals), it must, of necessity, mean two fully formed and developed nations."

"Elect" = Nobody.

"Sovereignty" = Something that belongs to mankind but not to God.

"Salvation" = Something that God participates in but is ultimately accomplished by human will and effort.

"Predestination" = Nothing, nothing at all.

"Freedom" = a) Something a human has before they come to Christ, after they come, they lose it due to the doctrine of "eternal security."
b) Something God has less of that man does when it comes to salvation.

"Prophecy" = A really good guess.


Of course publishing such a text would require an effort equal to, if not greater than reprinting the entire text of Scripture.


:chuckle:

Robert Pate
August 4th, 2015, 02:41 PM
:doh:

Robert,

You commented on Romans 9:

You make God's loving Jacob based on Jacob's love for God.

That directly contradicts the text you are commenting on because the scripture says that God set His love on Jacob "before either of them were born!"

:readthis:

(Romans 9:10-13 ESV) And not only so, but also when Rebekah had conceived children by one man, our forefather Isaac, though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad-- in order that God's purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of him who calls-- she was told, "The older will serve the younger." As it is written, "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated."

Do you want another direct contradiction of your commentary and scripture?


This so-called commentary on Romans 8:17-21 is a theological train wreck.

First you say that God didn't harden Pharaoh's heart which is a direct contradiction of the scriptures, see Exodus 4:21.


"And the LORD said to Moses, "When you go back to Egypt, see that you do before Pharaoh all the miracles that I have put in your power. But I will harden his heart, so that he will not let the people go. (Exo 4:21 ESV)"

Second, you have Paul answering "everyone" to the question posed by Paul...


" You will say to me then, "Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?" (Rom 9:19 ESV)"

...which is so eisegetical its embrassing.


Paul's answer isn't "everyone."

It is, "But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, "Why have you made me like this?" (Rom 9:20 ESV)"

Paul's answer is, "who are you to question God's just will?"

And, unfortunately, the common answer that is given to Paul's question in reply is "Oh, I'm special, I get to stand over God and determine when God is acting justly and when He isn't because I'm so smart and holy. I get to judge what God has done based upon what I think God should have done and that's the way I read all passages that contradict my view."

:nono:

So when you say things like...


You put your pride and ignorance on parade.

Because scripture flat out says that God hardened Pharaoh's heart and because it illustrates that your attempt to accuse Him of injustice is just another example of someone flapping thier gums where Paul was telling people to shut their yappers.


" But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? (Rom 9:20 ESV)"


You don't believe that God is holy, just, merciful and righteous.

You believe in the God of Calvinism that is an unjust, unmerciful, unrighteous tyrant that delights in sending people to hell.

God's sovereignty does not overide his holy attributes.

The real problem for you is that it is not possible for you to have saving faith in the God of Calvinism. The God that you describe did not send his only begotten Son into the world to die for the sins of the world, John 3:16.

The God of Calvinism is devisive and cannot be trusted.

Brother Ducky
August 4th, 2015, 03:34 PM
In actual fact the text states both.

Indeed it does if you are looking at different verses. However, Mr. Pate is arguing that God did not harden Pharoah's heart. The text does clearly state that God did harden Pharoah's heart.

Clete
August 4th, 2015, 04:06 PM
That's fun, lets do the same with open theism.
:chuckle:


Open Theist dictionary.

"twins" = two fully formed people groups. For example, when Rebekah gave birth to Jacob and Esau the "twins" cannot possibly refer to two individuals (despite the fact that twins usually means two individuals), it must, of necessity, mean two fully formed and developed nations."
We would not insist that there were two nation in Rebekah's womb except that God Himself clearly says so plain as day.


Genesis 25:23 And the Lord said to her: “Two nations are in your womb, Two peoples shall be separated from your body; One people shall be stronger than the other, And the older shall serve the younger.”


"Elect" = Nobody.
Elect refers to any saved person. When a person becomes a believer they are joining God's elect. Pretty simple. Its only in the Calvinist's mind that elect means that someone is chosen arbitrarily without any say in the matter.


"Sovereignty" = Something that belongs to mankind but not to God.
This is just stupidity but for the sake of argument...

Sovereignty in the Open View means what the word sovereignty means in reality. It means the highest authority. It is in the Calvinist mind that the word is changed to mean, "In meticulous control of every event that occurs."


"Salvation" = Something that God participates in but is ultimately accomplished by human will and effort.
Again, not really worth my time but here goes..

Salvation in the Open View means exactly that, salvation! We've been saved because God chose to pay a debt for us that we had no way of paying except in eternal separation from God. A feat only God could have accomplished and one He did not have to accomplish. He chose to do it. Not because we deserved it but because of His own mercy and grace.


"Predestination" = Nothing, nothing at all.
Predestination means to be determined in advance. I'm pretty sure Webster would agree with that.


"Freedom" = a) Something a human has before they come to Christ, after they come, they lose it due to the doctrine of "eternal security."
Many, if not most, of the Open View people I know hold to a modified understanding of the eternal security doctrine. Different enough that it may not actually qualify as eternal security.
In short, I believe that we have been sealed by the Holy Spirit unto the Day of Redemption and thus our safe delivery to the judgement thrown of Christ is assured because the Holy Spirit has been given as earnest and thus God would have to forfeit His Spirit if we were not brought to the Day of Redemption with our salvation intact. However, once there I do not believe that God would force someone to stay who didn't want to. Why would anyone hate God enough to no longer want to stick around? I don't know, ask Lucifer.


b) Something God has less of that man does when it comes to salvation.
This point doesn't make sense and so I'll just point out that it is the Calvinist god that is eternally static and unchanging and unable to move or to feel an emotion. It is the god of Calvinism that is forced to be a first person witness to every vile act performed in the fagot bar bathrooms. It is the Calvinist god that is forced to personally hold every molecule of excrement together and to push it along its way down the sewer.


"Prophecy" = A really good guess.
A really good prediction. Sometimes more than that but other times not even that. It depends on which kind of prophecy your talking about.


Of course publishing such a text would require an effort equal to, if not greater than reprinting the entire text of Scripture.


:chuckle:
:kookoo:

Resting in Him,
Clete

Dialogos
August 5th, 2015, 10:46 AM
We would not insist that there were two nation in Rebekah's womb except that God Himself clearly says so plain as day.


Genesis 25:23 And the Lord said to her: “Two nations are in your womb, Two peoples shall be separated from your body; One people shall be stronger than the other, And the older shall serve the younger.”

And what did God mean when He said that "two nations" were in her womb? Did that mean that on her due date she would give birth to thousands of people, one half of them called Israel and the other called Edom?

Or does it mean that Rebekah would give birth to two babies, one named Jacob and the other named Edom and that both of them would grow and their progeny would become numerous such that two nations would arise from these two individuals.

BTW, its not the first time that God would use this kind of language. God told Abram that He would make Abram a nation.


I will make you a great nation; I will bless you And make your name great; And you shall be a blessing. (Gen 12:2 NKJ)

Does that mean that God is threatening to annihilate Abram's individual existence and reconstitute his cells as a great nation?

:chuckle:

Or is God saying that God will bless Abram and that he will have many descendants and those descendants will grow so strong and numerous that they will become a great nation?

I'm inclined to think that God means the later.

Its also not the last time that God will use this language.


`Let Me alone, that I may destroy them and blot out their name from under heaven; and I will make of you a nation mightier and greater than they.' (Deu 9:14 NKJ)

I'm pretty sure that God isn't threatening to dismember Moses and reconstitute him as thousands of new people. God is offering to provide for the fruitfulness of his progeny such that they grow to become a nation instead of the progeny of Jacob.

Consequently, Paul is talking about Jacob and Esau as individual babies not as national units. That's pretty clear given Paul's argument.





Elect refers to any saved person. When a person becomes a believer they are joining God's elect. Pretty simple.

Pretty simply wrong. Your definition of elect makes mankind the elector and God the elected. Your version of election is nothing more than self-selection and flies in the face of the cumulative biblical usage of "elect" as those chosen by God.



Its only in the Calvinist's mind that elect means that someone is chosen arbitrarily without any say in the matter.

No, its only in your own imagination. Calvinists don't believe that God chooses arbitrarily. That's just a straw man. But, if you like, you can have fun pushing it down. We Calvinists have grown pretty accustomed to watching Open Theists try and refute theological conclusions nobody believes.



Sovereignty in the Open View means what the word sovereignty means in reality. It means the highest authority.

Who has the final say when it comes to salvation in your view, God or man? Does the Creator have the final say in who is and who is not saved, or does the creature?



It is in the Calvinist mind that the word is changed to mean, "In meticulous control of every event that occurs."

As apposed to the notion that God wound up creation like a wind up toy and now sits back and watches it go.



Salvation in the Open View means exactly that, salvation!

Does it really? Or does it mean the potential to be saved? In your view did Jesus die to save sinners or did Jesus die in order to give sinners the option of salvation?

We Calvinists actually think that salvation means being saved from sin and unbelief.



We've been saved because God chose to pay a debt for us that we had no way of paying except in eternal separation from God. A feat only God could have accomplished and one He did not have to accomplish. He chose to do it. Not because we deserved it but because of His own mercy and grace.

No argument here. We just extend mercy and grace all the way to overcoming man's inherent inability to understand and choose God left to our own faculties.

Romans 3:11 actually means something to those of us who hold a reformed view of salvation.



Predestination means to be determined in advance. I'm pretty sure Webster would agree with that.

Great, in advance of what?

Romans 8:29-30 says believes are predestined to become conformed to the image of Christ. So we are determined in advance of what?



Many, if not most, of the Open View people I know hold to a modified understanding of the eternal security doctrine. Different enough that it may not actually qualify as eternal security.
In short, I believe that we have been sealed by the Holy Spirit unto the Day of Redemption and thus our safe delivery to the judgement thrown of Christ is assured because the Holy Spirit has been given as earnest and thus God would have to forfeit His Spirit if we were not brought to the Day of Redemption with our salvation intact. However, once there I do not believe that God would force someone to stay who didn't want to.

Ok, so?

No Calvinist believes that God forces anyone into the new heavens and new earth by gunpoint.

The question is, "where does the 'want to' come from?

How do you get from Romans 3:11 to wanting to be fully conformed into the image of Christ?

Does the Holy Spirit have anything to do with that whatsoever?

Or does the sealing of the Holy Spirit just mean that God puts an external mark on someone but leaves them to their own devices to mature themselves.



Why would anyone hate God enough to no longer want to stick around? I don't know, ask Lucifer.

Don't have to.

Apart from the Holy Spirit, we are all God haters who suppress the truth in unrighteousness.




This point doesn't make sense and so I'll just point out that it is the Calvinist god that is eternally static and unchanging and unable to move or to feel an emotion.

Some Calvinists may believe this, I sure don't.




It is the god of Calvinism that is forced to be a first person witness to every vile act performed in the fagot bar bathrooms. It is the Calvinist god that is forced to personally hold every molecule of excrement together and to push it along its way down the sewer.


Nice...

:rolleyes:

As to your first example, are you claiming that God is ignorant of what happens in the darkest recesses of human depravity? Because, if so, the scriptures flat out prove you wrong.


"(Hebrews 4:13 NKJ) And there is no creature hidden from His sight, but all things are naked and open to the eyes of Him to whom we must give account. "

As to your second example, I believe Col 1:16-17 is true, do you?
You can come up with some more distasteful examples if you like but you don't get to claim that some things hold together because of Christ and some things don't and still affirm Col 1:16-17.



A really good prediction. Sometimes more than that but other times not even that. It depends on which kind of prophecy your talking about.

We Calvinists believe that God passes His own test, see Isaiah 41:22-23.

Tambora
August 5th, 2015, 11:22 AM
God does harden hearts. And God blinds eyes and deafens ears too.

Romans 11 KJV
(8) (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day.

Dialogos
August 5th, 2015, 11:31 AM
You don't believe that God is holy, just, merciful and righteous.

Strike one.

I do in fact believe that God is holy, just merciful and righteous.



You believe in the God of Calvinism that is an unjust, unmerciful, unrighteous tyrant that delights in sending people to hell.

Strike two. I believe none of these things.



The real problem for you is that it is not possible for you to have saving faith in the God of Calvinism. The God that you describe did not send his only begotten Son into the world to die for the sins of the world, John 3:16.

Strike three.

I fully affirm John 3:16.

You're out Pate.



The God of Calvinism is devisive and cannot be trusted.

Translation: "I don't like Calvinism, it doesn't conform to what I think God must be like, and since God has to conform to what I imagine Him to be, Calvinism must be false."

Robert Pate
August 5th, 2015, 12:10 PM
God does harden hearts. And God blinds eyes and deafens ears too.

Romans 11 KJV
(8) (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day.


Because God is holy, just, merciful and righteous he always gives us what we want.

He never would never impose a hard heart or slumber eyes and deaf ears, unless that is what we wanted.

Robert Pate
August 5th, 2015, 12:15 PM
Strike one.

I do in fact believe that God is holy, just merciful and righteous.


Strike two. I believe none of these things.


Strike three.

I fully affirm John 3:16.

You're out Pate.



Translation: "I don't like Calvinism, it doesn't conform to what I think God must be like, and since God has to conform to what I imagine Him to be, Calvinism must be false."


The Bible teaches that God is holy, just, merciful and righteous in all that he does.

Since I believe the Bible to be the word of God, I will stick with what the scriptures say about him.

You can keep your unholy, unjust, unmerciful, unrighteous God because it is not possible to have faith in him.

You are a liar when you say that you affirm John 3:16.

beloved57
August 5th, 2015, 12:15 PM
Because God is holy, just, merciful and righteous he always gives us what we want.

He never would never impose a hard heart or slumber eyes and deaf ears, unless that is what we wanted.

False testimony ! Isa 6:9-10

9 And he said, Go, and tell this people, Hear ye indeed, but understand not; and see ye indeed, but perceive not.

10 Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed.

Dialogos
August 6th, 2015, 09:36 AM
The Bible teaches that God is holy, just, merciful and righteous in all that he does.

Amen.



Since I believe the Bible to be the word of God, I will stick with what the scriptures say about him.


Good motive. Would you care to address how or why you contradicted His word twice in your opening post?



You can keep your unholy, unjust, unmerciful, unrighteous God because it is not possible to have faith in him.

And here we have the real objection. A God Who is sovereign in salvation is so unpalatable to some that they refuse to have faith in Him because He won't conform to the image of man.



You are a liar when you say that you affirm John 3:16.

2 Cor 13:1 Robert.

Either you produce evidence where I have denied John 3:16 or you owe me a public apology for making a false accusation.

Dialogos
August 6th, 2015, 09:37 AM
Because God is holy, just, merciful and righteous he always gives us what we want.

He never would never impose a hard heart or slumber eyes and deaf ears, unless that is what we wanted.

Robert,

Tambora is gently showing you where you err using the scriptures, why do you not allow the Word to correct your misunderstanding?

:idunno:

Robert Pate
August 7th, 2015, 10:11 AM
God does harden hearts. And God blinds eyes and deafens ears too.

Romans 11 KJV
(8) (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day.


They wanted to be blind and deaf. They wanted their religion.

God only gives light to those who want light, John 3:21.

You remain in darkness because you have never come to the light.

beloved57
August 7th, 2015, 11:08 AM
They wanted to be blind and deaf. They wanted their religion.

God only gives light to those who want light, John 3:21.

You remain in darkness because you have never come to the light.

Unscriptural comments!

Robert Pate
August 7th, 2015, 12:24 PM
Unscriptural comments!


God always gives us what we want.

You want to believe a heretic, so God gives you a heretic to believe in.

Isn't he gracious?

beloved57
August 7th, 2015, 12:42 PM
God always gives us what we want.

You want to believe a heretic, so God gives you a heretic to believe in.

Isn't he gracious?
None of your comments are scriptural!

Robert Pate
August 7th, 2015, 03:47 PM
None of your comments are scriptural!

Sure they are.

You want to believe a lie, so, God gives you a lie to believe in, 2 Thessalonians 2:10, 11.

beloved57
August 7th, 2015, 04:09 PM
Sure they are.

You want to believe a lie, so, God gives you a lie to believe in, 2 Thessalonians 2:10, 11.
Sure they are not!

Dialogos
August 7th, 2015, 06:57 PM
You remain in darkness because you have never come to the light.

Totally out of line, Pate.

Somebody gently points out that you are arguing something the scriptures clearly refutes. Namely, you argued that God never hardened Pharaoh's heart right in the OP...



Romans 9:17-21. God did not harden Pharaohs heart. If God did that he would be unjust. However, God did use this rebel to demonstrate his power to the Israelites. The scripture is refering to the plagues that God brought upon the Egyptians. "Who has resisted his will?" All have, we are all sinners. God does not create evil people so that he can vent his wrath on them. "The vessels of wrath fitted for destruction" are Christ rejecting unbelievers. "Hath not the potter power over the clay?" Yes, God has the power to create evil people. The scripture does not say that he does. If he did that he would not be just.


which is so clearly WRONG that anyone with a third grade reading level and a bible opened to Exodus 4:21 would know it.

:duh:

Instead of graciously accepting good natured correction you cast dispersions on Tambora's salvation, who, BTW, probably agrees more with you on Calvinism vs. Arminianism than she does with me.

Bonehead move Pate.

:doh:

Robert Pate
August 8th, 2015, 07:19 AM
Totally out of line, Pate.

Somebody gently points out that you are arguing something the scriptures clearly refutes. Namely, you argued that God never hardened Pharaoh's heart right in the OP...



which is so clearly WRONG that anyone with a third grade reading level and a bible opened to Exodus 4:21 would know it.

:duh:

Instead of graciously accepting good natured correction you cast dispersions on Tambora's salvation, who, BTW, probably agrees more with you on Calvinism vs. Arminianism than she does with me.

Bonehead move Pate.

:doh:


Pharaoh never did believe in God and never wanted to.

His heart was hard long before his encounter with Moses.

He brought judgment on himself because he would not obey God.

If God hardened Pharaohs heart it was because Pharaoh wanted a hard heart. God gave him what he wanted, a hard heart.

But to say that God hardened Pharaohs heart so that he could judge him makes God unjust.

God is not unjust, nor is he unmerciful.

beloved57
August 8th, 2015, 10:38 AM
Pharaoh never did believe in God and never wanted to.

His heart was hard long before his encounter with Moses.

He brought judgment on himself because he would not obey God.

If God hardened Pharaohs heart it was because Pharaoh wanted a hard heart. God gave him what he wanted, a hard heart.

But to say that God hardened Pharaohs heart so that he could judge him makes God unjust.

God is not unjust, nor is he unmerciful.

God did deliberately harden pharaohs heart ! Rom 9:17-18!

And you are guilty of calling God unjust!

Robert Pate
August 8th, 2015, 01:27 PM
God did deliberately harden pharaohs heart ! Rom 9:17-18!

And you are guilty of calling God unjust!

Your Calvinist God is mean, cruel and devisive.

You believe that he hardens men's hearts so that he can judge them and send them to hell.

Problem is that it is not possible for you to have faith in the God of Calvinism, which means that you are without faith.

beloved57
August 8th, 2015, 05:21 PM
Your Calvinist God is mean, cruel and devisive.

You believe that he hardens men's hearts so that he can judge them and send them to hell.

Problem is that it is not possible for you to have faith in the God of Calvinism, which means that you are without faith.

Worthless comments!

Robert Pate
August 9th, 2015, 04:21 PM
Worthless comments!


The God that you believe in cannot be trusted.

Who can trust a God that sends people to hell for no reason other than they were born after Adam?

This is why there is no scripture any where in the Bible that says God does predestinate people to heaven or to hell.

It is another Calvinist fairy tale.

Nanja
August 9th, 2015, 06:02 PM
The God that you believe in cannot be trusted.

Who can trust a God that sends people to hell for no reason other than they were born after Adam?

This is why there is no scripture any where in the Bible that says God does predestinate people to heaven or to hell.

It is another Calvinist fairy tale.

Ordaining them to condemnation is the same as predestinating them to Hell.

Jude 1:4
For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation,
ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.


That's exactly what you're guilty of, Pate:
"turning the doctrine of the Grace of our God into lasciviousness:
Asserting it to be a licentious doctrine, when it is not;
or by treating it in a wanton and ludicrous manner, scoffing at it,
and lampooning it; or by making the doctrine of grace universal,
extending it equally alike to all mankind, and thereby harden and
encourage men in sin." (John Gill commentary on Jude 1:4)

~~~~~

beloved57
August 9th, 2015, 07:45 PM
Ordaining them to condemnation is the same as predestinating them to Hell.

Jude 1:4
For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation,
ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.


That's exactly what you're guilty of, Pate:
"turning the doctrine of the Grace of our God into lasciviousness:
Asserting it to be a licentious doctrine, when it is not;
or by treating it in a wanton and ludicrous manner, scoffing at it,
and lampooning it; or by making the doctrine of grace universal,
extending it equally alike to all mankind, and thereby harden and
encourage men in sin." (John Gill commentary on Jude 1:4)

~~~~~

Good Post!

Robert Pate
August 10th, 2015, 07:50 AM
Good Post!


Actually Jude 1:4 fits Calvinism perfectly.

You, like B57, have this warped, perverted, twisted view of Gods grace.

beloved57
August 10th, 2015, 07:51 AM
Actually Jude 1:4 fits Calvinism perfectly.

You, like B57, have this warped, perverted, twisted view of Gods grace.

More scoffing at the Truth !

Robert Pate
August 10th, 2015, 08:00 AM
More scoffing at the Truth !


If truth was a big truck and it ran over you, you still would not know what it is.

beloved57
August 10th, 2015, 09:06 AM
If truth was a big truck and it ran over you, you still would not know what it is.

More worthless comments!

Clete
August 10th, 2015, 07:01 PM
THREAD REBOOT!!!!!!!

Romans Chapter 9 and Calvinism

I thought I'd start by simply posting my take on the chapter. I thought to take it verse by verse but then I realized that would be entirely too lengthy and not really necessary so I decided just to clearly communicate the way I think the text should be taken without going into that much meticulous detail.

Before I do that though let me say first that I think that the Bible interprets itself and must be taken as a whole but that I also believe that individual passages of Scripture must stand on their own without being logically incoherent. In other words, we are able to determine what a passage of Scripture is saying based solely on the context of the passage itself. We do not need a theological system in place before it is possible to figure out what a section of Scripture is saying. Now, there could be, I suppose, exceptions to this general rule but Romans chapter 9 is certainly not one of them. I'm saying this at the outset because I want to draw attention to the fact that I do not draw upon any theology to interpret this chapter but only upon other Bible passages which the text of Romans 9 makes reference too, all of which couldn't be any clearer and easy to understand than they are. I also bring this up now because I think that this will become important as the conversation goes on because I do not think that the Calvinist take on this chapter makes any logical sense whatsoever. Paul would have to be nearly schizophrenic to write what Calvinists generally say that he wrote in this passage.

Now, with that in mind let's get to it...

The ninth chapter of Romans is speaking about the cutting off of Israel. It is quite clear that Paul is making a case that God cut off Israel and turned instead to the gentiles, and that God is justified in having done so. It will become equally clear that this is all that the chapter is about, and that it has nothing to do with predestination at all.

It helps to see it if one looks at the introduction and summation of the chapter. In the first few verses it is clear that Paul is speaking of Israel and that he is upset by their condition of unbelief...


Romans 9:1 I tell the truth in Christ, I am not lying, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Spirit, 2 that I have great sorrow and continual grief in my heart. 3 For I could wish that I myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my *countrymen according to the flesh, 4 who are Israelites, to whom pertain the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the service of God, and the promises; 5 of whom are the fathers and from whom, according to the flesh, Christ came, who is over all, the eternally blessed God. Amen.

And then in the last few verses Paul sums up the point of what he's just been saying in the previous several verses...


Romans 9:30 What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness of faith; 31 but Israel, pursuing the law of righteousness, has not attained to the law *of righteousness. 32 Why? Because they did not seek it by faith, but as it were, *by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumbling stone. 33 As it is written:
"Behold, I lay in Zion a stumbling stone and rock of offense,
And whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame."

Now, that by itself is probably enough to make it clear what Paul is talking about but what really nails it down is his reference in the body of the chapter to a couple of Old Testament passages, those being Jacob and Esau and then the Potter and the clay story.
It's always a good idea to read any Old Testament passage that is quoted or made reference to in the New, in order to maintain the context of what's being said. (Remember the whole "Bible interpreting the Bible" thing.) So let's take a look at them so that we can be on the same page that Paul was on when he made these references. Doing so will undoubtedly shed additional light on the point he was making.


Romans 9:13 As it is written, "Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated."

This is a direct quote from Malachi 1:2-3 but even the Malachi passage is not referencing the two boys themselves but the nations which came from them. I won't bother quoting it here but even a surface reading of Malachi 1 will confirm that it is talking about a nation not a person.
Likewise, Paul is talking also about a nation. We can tell this for certain because of what is quoted just before in verse 12...


Romans 9:12 "it was said to her, "The older shall serve the younger.""

This is a direct quote from Genesis chapter 25 where it says explicitly that there are two nations in Rebecca's womb...


Genesis 25:23 "And the LORD said to her: "Two nations are in your womb, Two peoples shall be separated from your body; One people shall be stronger than the other, And the older shall serve the younger."

Additionally, even if it didn't explicitly state that it's talking about two nations we could still know for certain that it is anyway because Esau (the older) never served Jacob (the younger). That did not happen, ever.

This passage is very clearly talking about nations and about how God deals with nations not about individuals or how God deals with individuals and Paul by referencing this material was making the exact same point. That's the reason why he referenced it.

Now let's move on to the Potter and the clay story. It is on the same topic and is found in Jeremiah chapter 18...


Jeremiah 18:1The word which came to Jeremiah from the LORD, saying: 2 "Arise and go down to the potter's house, and there I will cause you to hear My words." 3 Then I went down to the potter's house, and there he was, making something at the wheel. 4 And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter; so he made it again into another vessel, as it seemed good to the potter to make.
5 Then the word of the LORD came to me, saying: 6 "O house of Israel, can I not do with you as this potter?" says the LORD. "Look, as the clay is in the potter's hand, so are you in My hand, O house of Israel! 7 The instant I speak concerning a nation and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, to pull down, and to destroy it, 8 if that nation against whom I have spoken turns from its evil, I will relent of the disaster that I thought to bring upon it. 9 And the instant I speak concerning a nation and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it, 10 if it does evil in My sight so that it does not obey My voice, then I will relent concerning the good with which I said I would benefit it.

Okay, that couldn't be any clearer! Jeremiah was making the very point that Paul is making! No wonder Paul referenced this passage, it applies directly to the subject he was dealing with! It IS the subject he was dealing with! Romans 9 and Jeremiah 18 are making the exact same point; they both use the same analogy for the same reasons. For all intent and purposes Romans 9 and Jeremiah 18 are the exact same chapter! The only difference is that in Romans 9 Paul is saying that the principle described in Jeremiah 18 has been carried out by God on the nation of Israel.

Romans 9 is not about predestination at all. Paul didn't start talking about Israel and then suddenly change the subject to predestination and then just as suddenly change the subject back again to Israel. The whole chapter is on one issue and one issue only. That issue being God's absolute right to change His mind concerning His blessing of a nation that had done evil in His sight.
It's no more complicated than that. In a nutshell, Paul was simply saying that Israel's promised kingdom wasn't coming because they had rejected the King and Romans 9 is all about how God was justified in having changed His mind about giving them that kingdom. That's all it's about; nothing more, nothing less.

Resting in Him,
Clete

Robert Pate
August 10th, 2015, 07:16 PM
THREAD REBOOT!!!!!!!

Romans Chapter 9 and Calvinism

I thought I'd start by simply posting my take on the chapter. I thought to take it verse by verse but then I realized that would be entirely too lengthy and not really necessary so I decided just to clearly communicate the way I think the text should be taken without going into that much meticulous detail.

Before I do that though let me say first that I think that the Bible interprets itself and must be taken as a whole but that I also believe that individual passages of Scripture must stand on their own without being logically incoherent. In other words, we are able to determine what a passage of Scripture is saying based solely on the context of the passage itself. We do not need a theological system in place before it is possible to figure out what a section of Scripture is saying. Now, there could be, I suppose, exceptions to this general rule but Romans chapter 9 is certainly not one of them. I'm saying this at the outset because I want to draw attention to the fact that I do not draw upon any theology to interpret this chapter but only upon other Bible passages which the text of Romans 9 makes reference too, all of which couldn't be any clearer and easy to understand than they are. I also bring this up now because I think that this will become important as the conversation goes on because I do not think that the Calvinist take on this chapter makes any logical sense whatsoever. Paul would have to be nearly schizophrenic to write what Calvinists generally say that he wrote in this passage.

Now, with that in mind let's get to it...

The ninth chapter of Romans is speaking about the cutting off of Israel. It is quite clear that Paul is making a case that God cut off Israel and turned instead to the gentiles, and that God is justified in having done so. It will become equally clear that this is all that the chapter is about, and that it has nothing to do with predestination at all.

It helps to see it if one looks at the introduction and summation of the chapter. In the first few verses it is clear that Paul is speaking of Israel and that he is upset by their condition of unbelief...


Romans 9:1 I tell the truth in Christ, I am not lying, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Spirit, 2 that I have great sorrow and continual grief in my heart. 3 For I could wish that I myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my *countrymen according to the flesh, 4 who are Israelites, to whom pertain the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the service of God, and the promises; 5 of whom are the fathers and from whom, according to the flesh, Christ came, who is over all, the eternally blessed God. Amen.

And then in the last few verses Paul sums up the point of what he's just been saying in the previous several verses...


Romans 9:30 What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness of faith; 31 but Israel, pursuing the law of righteousness, has not attained to the law *of righteousness. 32 Why? Because they did not seek it by faith, but as it were, *by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumbling stone. 33 As it is written:
"Behold, I lay in Zion a stumbling stone and rock of offense,
And whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame."

Now, that by itself is probably enough to make it clear what Paul is talking about but what really nails it down is his reference in the body of the chapter to a couple of Old Testament passages, those being Jacob and Esau and then the Potter and the clay story.
It's always a good idea to read any Old Testament passage that is quoted or made reference to in the New, in order to maintain the context of what's being said. (Remember the whole "Bible interpreting the Bible" thing.) So let's take a look at them so that we can be on the same page that Paul was on when he made these references. Doing so will undoubtedly shed additional light on the point he was making.


Romans 9:13 As it is written, "Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated."

This is a direct quote from Malachi 1:2-3 but even the Malachi passage is not referencing the two boys themselves but the nations which came from them. I won't bother quoting it here but even a surface reading of Malachi 1 will confirm that it is talking about a nation not a person.
Likewise, Paul is talking also about a nation. We can tell this for certain because of what is quoted just before in verse 12...


Romans 9:12 "it was said to her, "The older shall serve the younger.""

This is a direct quote from Genesis chapter 25 where it says explicitly that there are two nations in Rebecca's womb...


Genesis 25:23 "And the LORD said to her: "Two nations are in your womb, Two peoples shall be separated from your body; One people shall be stronger than the other, And the older shall serve the younger."

Additionally, even if it didn't explicitly state that it's talking about two nations we could still know for certain that it is anyway because Esau (the older) never served Jacob (the younger). That did not happen, ever.

This passage is very clearly talking about nations and about how God deals with nations not about individuals or how God deals with individuals and Paul by referencing this material was making the exact same point. That's the reason why he referenced it.

Now let's move on to the Potter and the clay story. It is on the same topic and is found in Jeremiah chapter 18...


Jeremiah 18:1The word which came to Jeremiah from the LORD, saying: 2 "Arise and go down to the potter's house, and there I will cause you to hear My words." 3 Then I went down to the potter's house, and there he was, making something at the wheel. 4 And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter; so he made it again into another vessel, as it seemed good to the potter to make.
5 Then the word of the LORD came to me, saying: 6 "O house of Israel, can I not do with you as this potter?" says the LORD. "Look, as the clay is in the potter's hand, so are you in My hand, O house of Israel! 7 The instant I speak concerning a nation and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, to pull down, and to destroy it, 8 if that nation against whom I have spoken turns from its evil, I will relent of the disaster that I thought to bring upon it. 9 And the instant I speak concerning a nation and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it, 10 if it does evil in My sight so that it does not obey My voice, then I will relent concerning the good with which I said I would benefit it.

Okay, that couldn't be any clearer! Jeremiah was making the very point that Paul is making! No wonder Paul referenced this passage, it applies directly to the subject he was dealing with! It IS the subject he was dealing with! Romans 9 and Jeremiah 18 are making the exact same point; they both use the same analogy for the same reasons. For all intent and purposes Romans 9 and Jeremiah 18 are the exact same chapter! The only difference is that in Romans 9 Paul is saying that the principle described in Jeremiah 18 has been carried out by God on the nation of Israel.

Romans 9 is not about predestination at all. Paul didn't start talking about Israel and then suddenly change the subject to predestination and then just as suddenly change the subject back again to Israel. The whole chapter is on one issue and one issue only. That issue being God's absolute right to change His mind concerning His blessing of a nation that had done evil in His sight.
It's no more complicated than that. In a nutshell, Paul was simply saying that Israel's promised kingdom wasn't coming because they had rejected the King and Romans 9 is all about how God was justified in having changed His mind about giving them that kingdom. That's all it's about; nothing more, nothing less.

Resting in Him,
Clete


I agree, good post.

Dialogos
August 11th, 2015, 02:51 PM
Before I do that though let me say first that I think that the Bible interprets itself and must be taken as a whole but that I also believe that individual passages of Scripture must stand on their own without being logically incoherent. In other words, we are able to determine what a passage of Scripture is saying based solely on the context of the passage itself.

Let me start by saying that I totally agree with Clete here. We must first look to the immediate context. When we do that, the Calvinistic interpretation is actually more logically coherent than the alternative.



We do not need a theological system in place before it is possible to figure out what a section of Scripture is saying. Now, there could be, I suppose, exceptions to this general rule but Romans chapter 9 is certainly not one of them. I'm saying this at the outset because I want to draw attention to the fact that I do not draw upon any theology to interpret this chapter but only upon other Bible passages which the text of Romans 9 makes reference too, all of which couldn't be any clearer and easy to understand than they are.

Again, there is no need in Romans 8 to appeal to an a priori theological conclusions. Paul is clear enough without having to appeal to Calvin, or Boyd, Sanders, Enyart, etc…



I also bring this up now because I think that this will become important as the conversation goes on because I do not think that the Calvinist take on this chapter makes any logical sense whatsoever. Paul would have to be nearly schizophrenic to write what Calvinists generally say that he wrote in this passage.

I find the opposite to be true.



The ninth chapter of Romans is speaking about the cutting off of Israel. It is quite clear that Paul is making a case that God cut off Israel and turned instead to the gentiles, and that God is justified in having done so.

Sort of, but not entirely correct. Paul is justifying how God can be faithful to His covenant with Abraham and, at the same time, include gentiles and exclude many of the physical descendants of Abraham.

We cannot interpret Romans 9 divorced from Paul’s conclusions in Romans 8. Those being that God foreknows, predestines, calls, justifies and glorifies (in that order) all who love Him and are called according to His purpose. Paul reminds us that no one can bring a charge against God’s “elect” (Romans 8:33).

Then Paul beings to justify how it is that some gentiles are in while most Jews are currently out.

But it is a mistake to say that God cut out Israel entirely, Paul disputes this very mistaken assumption in Romans 11:5.



It will become equally clear that this is all that the chapter is about, and that it has nothing to do with predestination at all.

Incorrect, we do not get to divorce the context and conclusions of Romans 8 from Paul’s discussion in Romans 9 and Paul discusses both “election” and “predestination.” Predestination in Romans 8:29-30 and Election in Romans 8:33.



It helps to see it if one looks at the introduction and summation of the chapter. In the first few verses it is clear that Paul is speaking of Israel and that he is upset by their condition of unbelief...

This statement illustrates part of the problem. Paul did not write Romans in “chapters.” There is no introduction and summary of the chapter, Paul is continuing his thoughts from Romans 8.

Furthermore, while Paul is upset that most Israelites have rejected the gospel, Paul is clear to argue that God’s word hasn’t failed because not all (individual) descendants of Israel belong to Israel (Romans 9:6) which means that Paul is introducing his discussion in Romans 9 by presenting an argument for why some individual Jews are saved and other individual Jews aren’t and what follows in Romans 9 illustrates and buttresses this very point.

Clete quotes Romans 9:1-5 and then comments:


And then in the last few verses Paul sums up the point of what he's just been saying in the previous several verses...
Romans 9:30 What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness of faith; 31 but Israel, pursuing the law of righteousness, has not attained to the law *of righteousness. 32 Why? Because they did not seek it by faith, but as it were, *by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumbling stone. 33 As it is written:
"Behold, I lay in Zion a stumbling stone and rock of offense,
And whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame."
Now, that by itself is probably enough to make it clear what Paul is talking about…

I agree, this in itself, is enough to make it clear that Paul is absolutely talking about individual salvation and not national service.

Paul is not talking about how Gentiles, who did not pursue national service attained national service by faith but Israel, who pursue national service by the law has neglected to attain to national service. Paul is not saying that Israel stumbled because they did not seek national service by faith.

What Paul is absolutely saying is that individual gentiles who did not pursue righteousness (which comes from being saved, justified before God) have attained it, by faith. That Israel who pursued right-standing before God through the law did not attain salvation because they did not attain righteousness (that accompanies salvation) by faith. They pursued salvation by works not faith and stumbled over the stumbling stone.

If you look at Paul’s argument, his conclusions in Romans 9 has precisely nothing to do with national service and everything to do with an individual’s right-standing before God (righteousness) that comes from being saved by faith. Therefore, Paul’s conclusion has everything to do with individual salvation and nothing to do with national service.

That’s important, because Clete is going to have to justify why he thinks Paul’s discussion of Pharaoh and Paul’s example of Jacob and Esau have nothing to do with the conclusion Paul gives us in Romans 9:18

Remember, Clete advocated the following:


… I also believe that individual passages of Scripture must stand on their own without being logically incoherent. In other words, we are able to determine what a passage of Scripture is saying based solely on the context of the passage itself.

If Clete is going to meet his own burden, he must explain why he thinks it is logically coherent to believe that Paul’s argument that Jacob, Esau and Pharaoh are about nations and how God deals with nations when Paul’s conclusion is about individuals and how individuals have right-standing with God.



…but what really nails it down is his reference in the body of the chapter to a couple of Old Testament passages, those being Jacob and Esau and then the Potter and the clay story.
It's always a good idea to read any Old Testament passage that is quoted or made reference to in the New, in order to maintain the context of what's being said. (Remember the whole "Bible interpreting the Bible" thing.) So let's take a look at them so that we can be on the same page that Paul was on when he made these references. Doing so will undoubtedly shed additional light on the point he was making.
Romans 9:13 As it is written, "Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated."
This is a direct quote from Malachi 1:2-3 but even the Malachi passage is not referencing the two boys themselves but the nations which came from them.

I disagree. It is true that both Malachi and Genesis speak of the nations that will come from Jacob’s descendants and Esau’s descendants. It is also true that, throughout the OT, God will refer to a “nation” by referencing the federal head of that nation, such as God’s reference to “Israel” as “Jacob” as He does in Isaiah 14:1 (for example).

But there are three critical reasons from the immediate context why Paul isn’t doing this in Romans 9.

First, Paul makes an assertion in Romans 9:6 that the examples of Sarah’s children, Rebekah’s children and Pharaoh illustrate.


But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel, (Rom 9:6 ESV)

However we interpret the illustrations, we cannot do so in a way that undermines the point Paul is illustrating. Paul clearly isn’t speaking about Israel as a national whole because Paul wants to deal with the subset of individual Israelites who are saved that constitute the faithful remnant, the descendants of Israel who do belong to Israel. Paul intentionally wants to take our focus off of Israel as a whole in order to justify God’s choosing of the remnant. This leads to the second point.

Second, Paul begins his justification by giving illustrations that any biblically literate Jew would agree with, the first of which points out that God wasn’t obligated to bless all of the physical descendants of Abraham equally (Romans 9:8-10), it was through Isaac (not Ishmael) that were children of the promise. Paul continues His thoughts by using Jacob and Esau as another illustration of the point, and while Paul is fine with the fact that Israel was chosen rather than Edom, Paul is clear that God did the choosing before either individual baby became a nation!


…though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad-- in order that God's purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of him who calls-- (Rom 9:11 ESV)

Paul says that God’s purpose in election was God’s choosing Jacob when neither Jacob nor Esau (as individuals) were even born, or had done anything good or bad. Paul isn’t challenging common sense, Paul knows that when babies are born they are born as individuals and not as nations and Paul also knows that what God meant in Gen 25:23 was that Jacob and Esau would both grow up and have children and their children would have children and their progeny would become nations respectively. However, Paul takes great care to argue that God’s choosing happened before either individual baby was born, therefore God’s choosing definitely had implications for these individual’s progeny, but the choosing happened to individuals, as individuals.

Third, Paul’s example of Pharaoh is essential to his point not a departure from his point.

So when Paul says that God told Moses “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” it is abundantly clear that Paul isn’t talking about a nation but a person and Paul isn’t talking about service but about salvation. In fact, Pharaoh, unwittingly, did serve God, but he wasn’t’ the recipient of God’s mercy or compassion in a salvific sense. Any Jew would have given a hearty “amen” to these examples but then Paul applies them to buttress his initial point from verse 6 that “not all individual Israelites are Israel.” Again, Paul is arguing that God’s word hasn’t failed, not all individual Israelites belong to Israel, Paul is not arguing the point that Clete and others wants to import into the text which is “not all nations are chosen for national service.”


Before I go on, I’ll address an assertion Clete makes about Romans 9:12.


Additionally, even if it didn't explicitly state that it's talking about two nations we could still know for certain that it is anyway because Esau (the older) never served Jacob (the younger). That did not happen, ever.

This does not take into consideration the blessing that Isaac gave to Jacob and the explanation given to Esau.

To Jacob:
Let peoples serve you, and nations bow down to you. Be lord over your brothers, and may your mother's sons bow down to you. Cursed be everyone who curses you, and blessed be everyone who blesses you!" (Gen 27:29 ESV)

To Esau:
Isaac answered and said to Esau, "Behold, I have made him lord over you, and all his brothers I have given to him for servants, and with grain and wine I have sustained him. What then can I do for you, my son?" (Gen 27:37 ESV)

Esau was made a servant of Jacob at the time of Isaac’s death and when the land could no longer sustain both families, it was Esau who left his father’s land not Jacob because Jacob retained the blessing of his father Isaac and Esau embraced his brother as master of the land. Therefore, Esau did, in fact, serve Jacob.





Now let's move on to the Potter and the clay story. It is on the same topic and is found in Jeremiah chapter 18...

Clete refers to Jeremiah 18:1-10


Okay, that couldn't be any clearer! Jeremiah was making the very point that Paul is making! No wonder Paul referenced this passage, it applies directly to the subject he was dealing with! It IS the subject he was dealing with! Romans 9 and Jeremiah 18 are making the exact same point; they both use the same analogy for the same reasons. For all intent and purposes Romans 9 and Jeremiah 18 are the exact same chapter! The only difference is that in Romans 9 Paul is saying that the principle described in Jeremiah 18 has been carried out by God on the nation of Israel.

Clete errs here by being too selective. The “Potter/clay” analogy isn’t only present in Jeremiah 18 it is also present in Isaiah (41:25, 45:9 and 64:7 for example).
Clete wants to import the nationalistic metaphor in Jeremiah 18 in order to nullify the fact that Paul uses the analogy of Potter/clay to talk about individuals.

How do we know that Paul is talking about individuals?

Two very simple reasons.

First, Paul introduces the metaphor by saying the following.


But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, "Why have you made me like this?" (Rom 9:20 ESV)

Who are you oh man, not who are you oh nation.

Paul is talking about singular individuals as "man" demands.

Second...


(Romans 9:21-24 ESV) Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory—even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?

Just follow Paul’s argument.
The Potter makes vessels and verse 24 is clear that vessels = individuals. Paul says that the vessels of mercy are people (us, whom He has called…).

Again, lets heed Clete’s own words.



…we are able to determine what a passage of Scripture is saying based solely on the context of the passage itself.

We shouldn’t be looking to Jeremiah 18 to rescue the Potter/clay analogy from the conclusions that are clear from the immediate context. Paul is clear, from the immediate context, that vessels are people, not nations.




Romans 9 is not about predestination at all. Paul didn't start talking about Israel and then suddenly change the subject to predestination and then just as suddenly change the subject back again to Israel.

Paul starts by talking about how some individuals Jews are saved while most aren’t and uses examples of God’s sovereign choice of individuals to buttress his argument. Then Paul gives a common analogy, Potter/clay, and applies it to individuals (not nations) as verse 24 clearly tells us.

Robert Pate
August 12th, 2015, 05:32 AM
Long rambling post are a bore.

If you can't say it in a couple of hundred words, don't say it at all.

Dialogos
August 12th, 2015, 09:28 AM
Long rambling post are a bore.

If you can't say it in a couple of hundred words, don't say it at all.

:rotfl:

Your first post is 700 words long.

Robert Pate
August 12th, 2015, 10:19 AM
:rotfl:

Your first post is 700 words long.

If my post is 700 yours must be 5000 words long.

Christianity is not that complicated, It is religious people that make it complicated.

Clete
August 17th, 2015, 07:47 PM
I am not going to respond at all to Dialogos' post except to say that his brain is malfunctioning. He either cannot read or thinks words mean the opposite of what everyone else in the universe thinks they mean.

Any other response would be a waste of time. Perhaps we could talk about beer or cats or something less complicated but there's simply no common ground upon which to have even the simplest conversation on this topic.

patrick jane
August 17th, 2015, 07:51 PM
Long rambling post are a bore.

If you can't say it in a couple of hundred words, don't say it at all.

20010

1Mind1Spirit
August 17th, 2015, 09:55 PM
I am not going to respond at all to Dialogos' post except to say that his brain is malfunctioning. He either cannot read or thinks words mean the opposite of what everyone else in the universe thinks they mean.

Any other response would be a waste of time. Perhaps we could talk about beer or cats or something less complicated but there's simply no common ground upon which to have even the simplest conversation on this topic.

LOL.

You cant respond.

He completely refuted yer bumbling of scripture point by point.

Sorry man, but you got yer butt handed to yuh.:)

patrick jane
August 17th, 2015, 10:21 PM
Long rambling post are a bore.

If you can't say it in a couple of hundred words, don't say it at all.

wrong - you didn't read it - it's awesome

patrick jane
August 17th, 2015, 10:26 PM
Let me start by saying that I totally agree with Clete here. We must first look to the immediate context. When we do that, the Calvinistic interpretation is actually more logically coherent than the alternative.


Again, there is no need in Romans 8 to appeal to an a priori theological conclusions. Paul is clear enough without having to appeal to Calvin, or Boyd, Sanders, Enyart, etc…


I find the opposite to be true.


Sort of, but not entirely correct. Paul is justifying how God can be faithful to His covenant with Abraham and, at the same time, include gentiles and exclude many of the physical descendants of Abraham.

We cannot interpret Romans 9 divorced from Paul’s conclusions in Romans 8. Those being that God foreknows, predestines, calls, justifies and glorifies (in that order) all who love Him and are called according to His purpose. Paul reminds us that no one can bring a charge against God’s “elect” (Romans 8:33).

Then Paul beings to justify how it is that some gentiles are in while most Jews are currently out.

But it is a mistake to say that God cut out Israel entirely, Paul disputes this very mistaken assumption in Romans 11:5.


Incorrect, we do not get to divorce the context and conclusions of Romans 8 from Paul’s discussion in Romans 9 and Paul discusses both “election” and “predestination.” Predestination in Romans 8:29-30 and Election in Romans 8:33.


This statement illustrates part of the problem. Paul did not write Romans in “chapters.” There is no introduction and summary of the chapter, Paul is continuing his thoughts from Romans 8.

Furthermore, while Paul is upset that most Israelites have rejected the gospel, Paul is clear to argue that God’s word hasn’t failed because not all (individual) descendants of Israel belong to Israel (Romans 9:6) which means that Paul is introducing his discussion in Romans 9 by presenting an argument for why some individual Jews are saved and other individual Jews aren’t and what follows in Romans 9 illustrates and buttresses this very point.

Clete quotes Romans 9:1-5 and then comments:

I agree, this in itself, is enough to make it clear that Paul is absolutely talking about individual salvation and not national service.

Paul is not talking about how Gentiles, who did not pursue national service attained national service by faith but Israel, who pursue national service by the law has neglected to attain to national service. Paul is not saying that Israel stumbled because they did not seek national service by faith.

What Paul is absolutely saying is that individual gentiles who did not pursue righteousness (which comes from being saved, justified before God) have attained it, by faith. That Israel who pursued right-standing before God through the law did not attain salvation because they did not attain righteousness (that accompanies salvation) by faith. They pursued salvation by works not faith and stumbled over the stumbling stone.

If you look at Paul’s argument, his conclusions in Romans 9 has precisely nothing to do with national service and everything to do with an individual’s right-standing before God (righteousness) that comes from being saved by faith. Therefore, Paul’s conclusion has everything to do with individual salvation and nothing to do with national service.

That’s important, because Clete is going to have to justify why he thinks Paul’s discussion of Pharaoh and Paul’s example of Jacob and Esau have nothing to do with the conclusion Paul gives us in Romans 9:18

Remember, Clete advocated the following:

If Clete is going to meet his own burden, he must explain why he thinks it is logically coherent to believe that Paul’s argument that Jacob, Esau and Pharaoh are about nations and how God deals with nations when Paul’s conclusion is about individuals and how individuals have right-standing with God.


I disagree. It is true that both Malachi and Genesis speak of the nations that will come from Jacob’s descendants and Esau’s descendants. It is also true that, throughout the OT, God will refer to a “nation” by referencing the federal head of that nation, such as God’s reference to “Israel” as “Jacob” as He does in Isaiah 14:1 (for example).

But there are three critical reasons from the immediate context why Paul isn’t doing this in Romans 9.

First, Paul makes an assertion in Romans 9:6 that the examples of Sarah’s children, Rebekah’s children and Pharaoh illustrate.


But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel, (Rom 9:6 ESV)

However we interpret the illustrations, we cannot do so in a way that undermines the point Paul is illustrating. Paul clearly isn’t speaking about Israel as a national whole because Paul wants to deal with the subset of individual Israelites who are saved that constitute the faithful remnant, the descendants of Israel who do belong to Israel. Paul intentionally wants to take our focus off of Israel as a whole in order to justify God’s choosing of the remnant. This leads to the second point.

Second, Paul begins his justification by giving illustrations that any biblically literate Jew would agree with, the first of which points out that God wasn’t obligated to bless all of the physical descendants of Abraham equally (Romans 9:8-10), it was through Isaac (not Ishmael) that were children of the promise. Paul continues His thoughts by using Jacob and Esau as another illustration of the point, and while Paul is fine with the fact that Israel was chosen rather than Edom, Paul is clear that God did the choosing before either individual baby became a nation!


…though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad-- in order that God's purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of him who calls-- (Rom 9:11 ESV)

Paul says that God’s purpose in election was God’s choosing Jacob when neither Jacob nor Esau (as individuals) were even born, or had done anything good or bad. Paul isn’t challenging common sense, Paul knows that when babies are born they are born as individuals and not as nations and Paul also knows that what God meant in Gen 25:23 was that Jacob and Esau would both grow up and have children and their children would have children and their progeny would become nations respectively. However, Paul takes great care to argue that God’s choosing happened before either individual baby was born, therefore God’s choosing definitely had implications for these individual’s progeny, but the choosing happened to individuals, as individuals.

Third, Paul’s example of Pharaoh is essential to his point not a departure from his point.

So when Paul says that God told Moses “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” it is abundantly clear that Paul isn’t talking about a nation but a person and Paul isn’t talking about service but about salvation. In fact, Pharaoh, unwittingly, did serve God, but he wasn’t’ the recipient of God’s mercy or compassion in a salvific sense. Any Jew would have given a hearty “amen” to these examples but then Paul applies them to buttress his initial point from verse 6 that “not all individual Israelites are Israel.” Again, Paul is arguing that God’s word hasn’t failed, not all individual Israelites belong to Israel, Paul is not arguing the point that Clete and others wants to import into the text which is “not all nations are chosen for national service.”


Before I go on, I’ll address an assertion Clete makes about Romans 9:12.

This does not take into consideration the blessing that Isaac gave to Jacob and the explanation given to Esau.

To Jacob:
Let peoples serve you, and nations bow down to you. Be lord over your brothers, and may your mother's sons bow down to you. Cursed be everyone who curses you, and blessed be everyone who blesses you!" (Gen 27:29 ESV)

To Esau:
Isaac answered and said to Esau, "Behold, I have made him lord over you, and all his brothers I have given to him for servants, and with grain and wine I have sustained him. What then can I do for you, my son?" (Gen 27:37 ESV)

Esau was made a servant of Jacob at the time of Isaac’s death and when the land could no longer sustain both families, it was Esau who left his father’s land not Jacob because Jacob retained the blessing of his father Isaac and Esau embraced his brother as master of the land. Therefore, Esau did, in fact, serve Jacob.




Clete refers to Jeremiah 18:1-10

Clete errs here by being too selective. The “Potter/clay” analogy isn’t only present in Jeremiah 18 it is also present in Isaiah (41:25, 45:9 and 64:7 for example).
Clete wants to import the nationalistic metaphor in Jeremiah 18 in order to nullify the fact that Paul uses the analogy of Potter/clay to talk about individuals.

How do we know that Paul is talking about individuals?

Two very simple reasons.

First, Paul introduces the metaphor by saying the following.


But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, "Why have you made me like this?" (Rom 9:20 ESV)

Who are you oh man, not who are you oh nation.

Paul is talking about singular individuals as "man" demands.

Second...


(Romans 9:21-24 ESV) Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory—even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?

Just follow Paul’s argument.
The Potter makes vessels and verse 24 is clear that vessels = individuals. Paul says that the vessels of mercy are people (us, whom He has called…).

Again, lets heed Clete’s own words.


We shouldn’t be looking to Jeremiah 18 to rescue the Potter/clay analogy from the conclusions that are clear from the immediate context. Paul is clear, from the immediate context, that vessels are people, not nations.



Paul starts by talking about how some individuals Jews are saved while most aren’t and uses examples of God’s sovereign choice of individuals to buttress his argument. Then Paul gives a common analogy, Potter/clay, and applies it to individuals (not nations) as verse 24 clearly tells us.


this reminded me, (i actually do have memory loss issues), you make good debating posts. 1mind1spirit is right, you addressed every point and successfully refuted clete's assertions. the ones that are wrong. you got 'em all and very well said. i learned alot, thanks. God Bless

patrick jane
August 17th, 2015, 10:28 PM
LOL.

You cant respond.

He completely refuted yer bumbling of scripture point by point.

Sorry man, but you got yer butt handed to yuh.:)

:chuckle:

Robert Pate
August 18th, 2015, 07:05 AM
:chuckle:


The book of Colossians is a wonderful book that is full of priceless treasures.

Clete
August 23rd, 2015, 01:18 PM
this reminded me, (i actually do have memory loss issues), you make good debating posts. 1mind1spirit is right, you addressed every point and successfully refuted clete's assertions. the ones that are wrong. you got 'em all and very well said. i learned alot, thanks. God Bless

I cannot understand how this is possible. It feels like a lie but I don't think it is. It's the same feeling I get when talking with liberals. It's as though they have a mental disorder that alters the meaning of really simply words inside their minds. It makes it impossible to communicate in any meaningful way. Perhaps I'm approaching a point where I no longer care. That doesn't make it any more baffling though.

Clete
August 23rd, 2015, 06:37 PM
The cartoon below is a great illustration of what not only Dialogos' "argument" does but what every Calvinist I've ever debated or that I've ever heard debate does with scripture.
What the girl (I think its a girl! ???) in the cartoon does with math, Calvinists do with theology and the English language and whatever else they need to in order to preserve their a-prior assumptions about the nature of God and the 'truth' of predestination.


http://www.holoscience.com/wp/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/Maths-aint-Physics1.jpg

Resting in Him,
Clete

1Mind1Spirit
August 23rd, 2015, 08:25 PM
The cartoon below is a great illustration of what not only Dialogos' "argument" does but what every Calvinist I've ever debated or that I've ever heard debate does with scripture.
What the girl (I think its a girl! ???) in the cartoon does with math, Calvinists do with theology and the English language and whatever else they need to in order to preserve their a-prior assumptions about the nature of God and the 'truth' of predestination.


http://www.holoscience.com/wp/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/Maths-aint-Physics1.jpg

Resting in Him,
Clete

Hind sight is 20/20.

To bad scripture does not conform to yer prior assumptions.:dunce:

Dialogos
August 23rd, 2015, 09:33 PM
this reminded me, (i actually do have memory loss issues), you make good debating posts. 1mind1spirit is right, you addressed every point and successfully refuted clete's assertions. the ones that are wrong. you got 'em all and very well said. i learned alot, thanks. God Bless

Thanks for the very kind post.

God bless you as well.

patrick jane
August 23rd, 2015, 09:36 PM
Hind sight is 20/20.

To bad scripture does not conform to yer prior assumptions.:dunce:

you calvinistic ?

Dialogos
August 23rd, 2015, 09:43 PM
I am not going to respond at all to Dialogos' post except to say that his brain is malfunctioning.

Lol.

Maybe so, maybe not. I'll let the post stand on its own merits.



He either cannot read or thinks words mean the opposite of what everyone else in the universe thinks they mean.

I would have responded to the allegation that I think words mean the opposite of what everyone in the universe thinks they mean....


;)

....if I could have read that allegation.



Any other response would be a waste of time. Perhaps we could talk about beer....

Nah, not my thing...



or cats....

I'm really more of a reformed dog person...

:D


...or something less complicated but there's simply no common ground upon which to have even the simplest conversation on this topic.

Suit yourself, I'll see ya' around.

God Bless Clete.

patrick jane
August 23rd, 2015, 10:48 PM
I cannot understand how this is possible. It feels like a lie but I don't think it is. It's the same feeling I get when talking with liberals. It's as though they have a mental disorder that alters the meaning of really simply words inside their minds. It makes it impossible to communicate in any meaningful way. Perhaps I'm approaching a point where I no longer care. That doesn't make it any more baffling though.

i only agreed with some points he made as you probably did after re-reading. but i got a kick out of 1head1body's jabs at you. he has a way with words i find humorous -

i agree with just as many of your points, 1mind acted like every word you said was wrong - :Patrol:

Clete
August 24th, 2015, 05:55 PM
i only agreed with some points he made as you probably did after re-reading. but i got a kick out of 1head1body's jabs at you. he has a way with words i find humorous -

i agree with just as many of your points, 1mind acted like every word you said was wrong - :Patrol:

I really wish the discussions on this topic could be more fruitful than they are. Dialogos' post is probably the most intellectually honest post in favor of Calvinism that I've seen on this site in years but I just cannot get past the blindness that Calvinist seem to have when it comes to contradicting themselves and their bent toward the backward use of really common words. And I don't even mean theological terms, they get those wrong too but I mean totally common words like "Paul is talking about singular individuals as "man" demands.". No it doesn't! It absolutely does not demand any such thing but nearly his entire argument is based on that single premise. But I know that he'll never concede that point and neither will any of the mindless Neanderthals on this forum who think his post handed me my backside. It's just a pure waste of time to even try. I'm content to post my argument, answer questions if anyone has any, let whomever post their rebuttals and then let everyone remain unconvinced if that's what they choose to do.

Resting in Him,
Clete

patrick jane
August 24th, 2015, 06:50 PM
I really wish the discussions on this topic could be more fruitful than they are. Dialogos' post is probably the most intellectually honest post in favor of Calvinism that I've seen on this site in years but I just cannot get past the blindness that Calvinist seem to have when it comes to contradicting themselves and their bent toward the backward use of really common words. And I don't even mean theological terms, they get those wrong too but I mean totally common words like "Paul is talking about singular individuals as "man" demands.". No it doesn't! It absolutely does not demand any such thing but nearly his entire argument is based on that single premise. But I know that he'll never concede that point and neither will any of the mindless Neanderthals on this forum who think his post handed me my backside. It's just a pure waste of time to even try. I'm content to post my argument, answer questions if anyone has any, let whomever post their rebuttals and then let everyone remain unconvinced if that's what they choose to do.

Resting in Him,
Clete

well i am a MAD, i was before i heard of such, and received guidance here. i think you are a dispensationalist also, if so then i will read the thread in it's entirety. you have been here a dozen years -

Clete
August 24th, 2015, 07:01 PM
well i am a MAD, i was before i heard of such, and received guidance here. i think you are a dispensationalist also, if so then i will read the thread in it's entirety. you have been here a dozen years -
There are much better threads to read than this one.

Read the one on one I did several years back. My post here was my opening post in that debate.

One on One: Romans 9 (http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=20669)

1Mind1Spirit
August 25th, 2015, 01:38 PM
i only agreed with some points he made as you probably did after re-reading. but i got a kick out of 1head1body's jabs at you. he has a way with words i find humorous -

i agree with just as many of your points, 1mind acted like every word you said was wrong - :Patrol:

So you think Romans 9 has to do with nations as well as individuals?

1Mind1Spirit
August 25th, 2015, 01:44 PM
you calvinistic ?

Nope.

However I believe that Edom as well as Israel were used as examples of the spiritual condition of individual believers.

In the year or so I've been here, daqq is the only one who comes close to understanding these things.

Robert Pate
August 26th, 2015, 03:48 PM
There are much better threads to read than this one.

Read the one on one I did several years back. My post here was my opening post in that debate.

One on One: Romans 9 (http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=20669)


Only if you have time to read it. It goes on and on and on.