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Ben Masada
July 21st, 2015, 02:01 AM
Did Paul Follow God's Law as a Believer?

No! Absolutely not. He followed God's Law as a predator follows the victim: To destroy it. If you read Romans 7:9-25, the Law served only to bring death to him. (v.8) Without the Law, Paul could live in sin without any pain of conscience but after he read about the Law, sin revived and caused his life to become unbearable to live since to live meant death to him. (v.9)

Somehow, Paul knew that the Law is spiritual but, what could he do if he was carnal, sold under sin? (v.14) It seemed that Paul had got so accustomed to the way he used to live before that, after he found out from the Law that it was sinful, he started hating to have to live that way but he would do all the same. (v.15) Then he arrived to the conclusion of how sinful was to live that way but he could not change the sinful condition that dwelt in him. (v.17)

What had become an unbearable struggle for Paul was to love God's Law in his mind while serving the law of sin in his flesh. (v.22,23) Therefore, he considered himself a wretched man who could find no deliverance from the body of death that forced him to serve the Law of God in his mind only while serving sin in his flesh. (v. 24,25)

All the above is about the famous sinful thorn on the side of Paul. Do you have any idea what could it have been? I can't be more specific here than I have been, and tell you what every thing was about Paul but, one more thing I feel allowed to add. Paul had been born on the wrong time in History. Had he been born today, he would not have to live under such sinful repressed feelings which made his life so miserable.

oatmeal
July 21st, 2015, 03:43 AM
Did Paul Follow God's Law as a Believer?

No! Absolutely not. He followed God's Law as a predator follows the victim: To destroy it. If you read Romans 7:9-25, the Law served only to bring death to him. (v.8) Without the Law, Paul could live in sin without any pain of conscience but after he read about the Law, sin revived and caused his life to become unbearable to live since to live meant death to him. (v.9)

Somehow, Paul knew that the Law is spiritual but, what could he do if he was carnal, sold under sin? (v.14) It seemed that Paul had got so accustomed to the way he used to live before that, after he found out from the Law that it was sinful, he started hating to have to live that way but he would do all the same. (v.15) Then he arrived to the conclusion of how sinful was to live that way but he could not change the sinful condition that dwelt in him. (v.17)

What had become an unbearable struggle for Paul was to love God's Law in his mind while serving the law of sin in his flesh. (v.22,23) Therefore, he considered himself a wretched man who could find no deliverance from the body of death that forced him to serve the Law of God in his mind only while serving sin in his flesh. (v. 24,25)

All the above is about the famous sinful thorn on the side of Paul. Do you have any idea what could it have been? I can't be more specific here than I have been, and tell you what every thing was about Paul but, one more thing I feel allowed to add. Paul had been born on the wrong time in History. Had he been born today, he would not have to live under such sinful repressed feelings which made his life so miserable.

He knew and lived the truth in Roman 13:10

Paul's thorn in the flesh was the people, mainly the Judeans who opposed and obstructed Paul's efforts to carry out his God given ministry.

People who falsely accused him of, (how did you put it?)
"He followed God's Law as a predator follows the victim: To destroy it. "

Read I Corinthians 11 to find out what Paul prayed to God about

chrysostom
July 21st, 2015, 03:47 AM
interesting topic
but
do not understand what you are saying

it is my understanding that paul could not stop sinning
and
complained to God about that

most of the saints admitted to this
that
they could not stop sinning
and
continued to ask God for help regarding this

Ben Masada
July 21st, 2015, 03:52 AM
He knew and lived the truth in Roman 13:10

Paul's thorn in the flesh was the people, mainly the Judeans who opposed and obstructed Paul's efforts to carry out his God given ministry.

People who falsely accused him of, (how did you put it?)

Read I Corinthians 11 to find out what Paul prayed to God about

Paul's thorn in the flesh was sinful of himself and caused by what he learned from the Law. Nothing to do with the People. You seem to be telling me that you either did not care to read the thread or you read it and did not understand it. Or, probably, if you understood it, you willingly turned off the light of your soul to prevent a spiritual shock.

oatmeal
July 21st, 2015, 03:55 AM
Paul's thorn in the flesh was sinful of himself and caused by what he learned from the Law. Nothing to do with the People. You seem to be telling me that you either did not care to read the thread or you read it and did not understand it. Or, probably, if you understood it, you willingly turned off the light of your soul to prevent a spiritual shock.

Evidently, you are guessing instead of finding out from scripture.

Guessing is a waste of time, when you could look for answers in scripture and find out for sure.

chrysostom
July 21st, 2015, 03:58 AM
Evidently, you are guessing instead of finding out from scripture.

Guessing is a waste of time, when you could look for answers in scripture and find out for sure.

would that be a threat to your theology
if
you found out that paul could not stop sinning?

Ben Masada
July 21st, 2015, 03:59 AM
interesting topic
but
do not understand what you are saying

it is my understanding that paul could not stop sinning
and
complained to God about that

most of the saints admitted to this
that
they could not stop sinning
and
continued to ask God for help regarding this

That's called struggle against sinful repressed feelings which one just can't get rid of especially something akin to a previous style of life which has become ingrained in one's nature as if it has almost become of a second nature.

chrysostom
July 21st, 2015, 04:01 AM
That's called struggle against sinful repressed feelings which one just can't get rid of especially something akin to a previous style of life which has become ingrained in one's nature as if it has almost become of a second nature.

thanks for clearing that up

Ben Masada
July 21st, 2015, 04:09 AM
thanks for clearing that up

But of course Chrysostom, you are welcome.

Ben Masada
July 21st, 2015, 04:14 AM
would that be a threat to your theology
if
you found out that paul could not stop sinning?

Absolutely not! Paul had ceased as a Jew since the day he founded Christianity in the city of Antioch. (Acts 11:26) As I have said before, his thorn in his flesh started picking when he found out from the Law that his previous style of life was sinful. (Rom. 7:14)

chrysostom
July 21st, 2015, 04:28 AM
Absolutely not! Paul had ceased as a Jew since the day he founded Christianity in the city of Antioch. (Acts 11:26) As I have said before, his thorn in his flesh started picking when he found out from the Law that his previous style of life was sinful. (Rom. 7:14)

are you saying paul was no longer sinning when he wrote about the thorn in his side?

God's Truth
July 21st, 2015, 10:17 AM
Did Paul Follow God's Law as a Believer?

No! Absolutely not. He followed God's Law as a predator follows the victim: To destroy it. If you read Romans 7:9-25, the Law served only to bring death to him. (v.8) Without the Law, Paul could live in sin without any pain of conscience but after he read about the Law, sin revived and caused his life to become unbearable to live since to live meant death to him. (v.9)

Somehow, Paul knew that the Law is spiritual but, what could he do if he was carnal, sold under sin? (v.14) It seemed that Paul had got so accustomed to the way he used to live before that, after he found out from the Law that it was sinful, he started hating to have to live that way but he would do all the same. (v.15) Then he arrived to the conclusion of how sinful was to live that way but he could not change the sinful condition that dwelt in him. (v.17)

What had become an unbearable struggle for Paul was to love God's Law in his mind while serving the law of sin in his flesh. (v.22,23) Therefore, he considered himself a wretched man who could find no deliverance from the body of death that forced him to serve the Law of God in his mind only while serving sin in his flesh. (v. 24,25)

All the above is about the famous sinful thorn on the side of Paul. Do you have any idea what could it have been? I can't be more specific here than I have been, and tell you what every thing was about Paul but, one more thing I feel allowed to add. Paul had been born on the wrong time in History. Had he been born today, he would not have to live under such sinful repressed feelings which made his life so miserable.

Paul was explaining in a very exaggerated way how trying to obey the law without faith was not possible.

It wasn't a "sinful" thorn in Paul's side. Paul says the thorn was a messenger of Satan.
What do messengers do? Think about it. Messengers give messages. What kind of messages would Paul be getting from the messenger of Satan? Paul says, "That is why, for Christ’s sake, I delight in weaknesses, in insults, in hardships, in persecutions, in difficulties. For when I am weak, then I am strong."
The messenger of Satan was likely telling Paul the messages from Satan! Satan was probably tormenting Paul by describing the hardships and persecutions and difficulties Paul was going to go through.

Ben Masada, you do not obey God. You pretend to be a Jew but you do not have blood to clean yourself. Since you know you have no blood of an animal and a temple in which to sacrifice, you say God did not really say we needed blood.

You exchange the truth of God for a lie.

God's Truth
July 21st, 2015, 10:20 AM
are you saying paul was no longer sinning when he wrote about the thorn in his side?

People such as yourself do more harm than good. You are driving people such as Ben further from the Truth.

God's Truth
July 21st, 2015, 10:23 AM
That's called struggle against sinful repressed feelings which one just can't get rid of especially something akin to a previous style of life which has become ingrained in one's nature as if it has almost become of a second nature.

Pastors in many if not all denominations teach that falseness, that Paul, after Jesus saved him, struggled with sin so much and was the worst of sinners.

So many Christians say that in Romans 7, Paul was speaking of his life after Jesus saved him, that he could not stop sinning, that he could not do good, that he was a wretched man. I can hardly believe that people actually believe Apostle Paul was speaking of himself as a sinner AFTER Jesus saved him. That is utterly absurd.

Do you really believe Paul is calling himself a wretched man after Jesus saved him? No way had Paul spoke of himself in such a way after Jesus saved him. Paul asks, “Who will rescue me from this body that is subject to death?” Jesus saved Paul from his body of death! Through life through the Spirit, we are no longer slaves to sin! Read Romans chapter 8. In Romans chapter 8, you will learn about life for Paul and all true believers.

If you want to know how to stop sinning, I will tell you how.

john w
July 21st, 2015, 10:32 AM
Again-it is a reference to people who opposed Paul's message, as "thorn in the flesh" was a common figure of speech at the time, akin to today's "a pain in the neck."

"But if ye will not drive out the inhabitants of the land from before you; then it shall come to pass, that those which ye let remain of them shall be pricks in your eyes, and thorns in your sides, and shall vex you in the land wherein ye dwell." Numbers 33:55 KJV

Notice "those."

"Know for a certainty that the LORD your God will no more drive out any of these nations from before you; but they shall be snares and traps unto you, and scourges in your sides, and thorns in your eyes, until ye perish from off this good land which the LORD your God hath given you." Joshua 23:13 KJV

Notice "they."

"Wherefore I also said, I will not drive them out from before you; but they shall be as thorns in your sides, and their gods shall be a snare unto you." Judges 2:3 KJV

Notice "they...their."

Survey this great book.

Danoh
July 21st, 2015, 10:38 AM
Again-it is a reference to people who opposed Paul's message, as "thorn in the flesh" was a common figure of speech at the time, akin to today's "a pain in the neck."

"But if ye will not drive out the inhabitants of the land from before you; then it shall come to pass, that those which ye let remain of them shall be pricks in your eyes, and thorns in your sides, and shall vex you in the land wherein ye dwell." Numbers 33:55 KJV

Notice "those."

"Know for a certainty that the LORD your God will no more drive out any of these nations from before you; but they shall be snares and traps unto you, and scourges in your sides, and thorns in your eyes, until ye perish from off this good land which the LORD your God hath given you." Joshua 23:13 KJV

Notice "they."

"Wherefore I also said, I will not drive them out from before you; but they shall be as thorns in your sides, and their gods shall be a snare unto you." Judges 2:3 KJV

Notice "they...their."

Survey this great book.

Exactly!

2 Cor. 12:

10. Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses for Christ’s sake: for when I am weak, then am I strong.

Angel4Truth
July 21st, 2015, 10:45 AM
Did Paul Follow God's Law as a Believer?

No! Absolutely not. He followed God's Law as a predator follows the victim: To destroy it. If you read Romans 7:9-25, the Law served only to bring death to him. (v.8) Without the Law, Paul could live in sin without any pain of conscience but after he read about the Law, sin revived and caused his life to become unbearable to live since to live meant death to him. (v.9)

Somehow, Paul knew that the Law is spiritual but, what could he do if he was carnal, sold under sin? (v.14) It seemed that Paul had got so accustomed to the way he used to live before that, after he found out from the Law that it was sinful, he started hating to have to live that way but he would do all the same. (v.15) Then he arrived to the conclusion of how sinful was to live that way but he could not change the sinful condition that dwelt in him. (v.17)

What had become an unbearable struggle for Paul was to love God's Law in his mind while serving the law of sin in his flesh. (v.22,23) Therefore, he considered himself a wretched man who could find no deliverance from the body of death that forced him to serve the Law of God in his mind only while serving sin in his flesh. (v. 24,25)

All the above is about the famous sinful thorn on the side of Paul. Do you have any idea what could it have been? I can't be more specific here than I have been, and tell you what every thing was about Paul but, one more thing I feel allowed to add. Paul had been born on the wrong time in History. Had he been born today, he would not have to live under such sinful repressed feelings which made his life so miserable.

Where does it say in his side? It just says in his flesh. Meaning a physical problem.

Anyway i would guess his physical issue was his eyesight.

Galatians 4:15 Where is then the blessedness ye spake of? for I bear you record, that, if it had been possible, ye would have plucked out your own eyes, and have given them to me.


Another example of Paul's poor eyesight is found in Acts 23:3-5. Paul was in the Sanhedrin at this point and referred to the high priest as a "white-washed wall" and those who stood by him asked why he was insulting the high priest. Paul responded by telling them that he did not realize that the man was the high priest. Though Paul, previously being a Pharisee, would have been able to recognize the high priest quite easily. Yet at this point he seemed unable to identify the high priest, even though the high priest would have stood out because he wore special garments and accessories. For a former Pharisee to have not recognized him is likely explained through understanding that Paul was not able to see him properly—giving weight to theories of trouble with his vision.https://www.blueletterbible.org/faq/thorn.cfm

Danoh
July 21st, 2015, 11:08 AM
Where does it say in his side? It just says in his flesh. Meaning a physical problem.

Anyway i would guess his physical issue was his eyesight.

Galatians 4:15 Where is then the blessedness ye spake of? for I bear you record, that, if it had been possible, ye would have plucked out your own eyes, and have given them to me.

https://www.blueletterbible.org/faq/thorn.cfm

Remember why Paul called the High Priest that - Paul had just been smacked into next week!

In Galatians 6:11, he again mentions those persecutions he suffered for Christ's sake.

Stone some one often enough; starve them; shipwreck them, and all the rest; and their eyesight can be eventually greatly impacted.

------------------------------------------------

http://www.everydayhealth.com/vision-center/head-injuries.aspx

Head Injuries Can Lead to Serious Vision Problems

By Eric Metcalf, MPH | Medically reviewed by Pat F. Bass III, MD, MS, MPH

According to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, at least 1.4 million Americans suffer and are treated for a traumatic brain injury every year, a serious event that can create problems with normal brain functioning. Even more people suffer head injuries but don't seek medical attention; luckily, most of these traumatic brain injuries are mild, such as a concussion.

Eye and vision problems are fairly common after a brain injury. Some vision problems can be due to trauma to the eye, says Majid Moshirfar, MD, an ophthalmologist at the Moran Eye Center at the University of Utah. But many other vision problems are actually caused by injury to your brain.

If you have suffered a head injury — even a mild one — it's important to see a doctor who can make sure that your eyes and brain are still working properly and that there are no vision problems that could show up later.

Even mild head injuries, such as whiplash from a minor auto accident, can cause vision problems, Moshirfar says. The symptoms are varied. You may, for instance, have trouble focusing your eyes when switching your gaze between near and far objects. You may see double. Or you may feel nauseous or vomit when you shift your gaze around. After relatively minor trauma, people can also experience headaches or sensitivity to light, and words on a page may appear to move.

Head Injuries and Vision Problems

More serious vision problems can also result from a blow to the head or other head injury. These can include:


• Retinal detachment. Your retina is a thin layer of tissue lining the inside of the back of your eye. Its role is to help turn the images entering your eye into signals that go to the brain through the optic nerve. "I've seen patients who have a head injury and they bleed into the retina and have retinal detachment in both eyes," Dr. Moshirfar says. "That's a very serious problem requiring surgical intervention." In a retinal detachment, the retina comes loose — an issue that can potentially cause permanent blindness. Doctors may be able to reattach the retina, but it's imperative that you seek treatment quickly.

• Vitreous hemorrhage. Each of your eyes contain a clear, jellylike substance called the vitreous humor. Light entering your pupil (the black spot in the center of your eye) passes through the vitreous before striking the retina. Head injuries can cause blood vessels in your eye to bleed into the vitreous. Though these injuries can be quite problematic at first, Moshirfar says, most vitreous hemorrhages clear up over time with minimal problems, although some people require medication to speed their recovery and avoid further vision problems.

• Optic nerve damage. Head injuries also have the potential to cause increased pressure within the skull. This in turn puts pressure on your optic nerves, which carry messages from the eyes to the brain. This pressure can "choke" the optic nerves, cutting off blood circulation. The damage to the nerves can be severe, Moshirfar says. The resulting problems can cause vision loss severe enough to lead to complete blindness.

If you've suffered any kind of injury to the head that has resulted in changes in vision, getting prompt treatment is critical. "Patients who have even subtle changes in their vision — such as fluctuation in their vision, double vision, or difficulty focusing at near and distant objects — need to be examined by an eye-care specialist or neurologist," Moshirfar advises.

Bottom Line on Head Injuries and Eye Problems

If you’ve had any kind of head injury and you are having eye symptoms, don't wait. Get in to see a specialist who can provide the right diagnosis and develop a treatment plan that works for you.

Jacob
July 21st, 2015, 11:53 AM
Please evaluate your interpretation Ben Masada, and see if it comes into agreement with this Bible verse.

Acts 21:24 NASB - 24 take them and purify yourself along with them, and pay their expenses so that they may shave their heads; and all will know that there is nothing to the things which they have been told about you, but that you yourself also walk orderly, keeping the Law.

Ben Masada
July 22nd, 2015, 01:54 AM
are you saying paul was no longer sinning when he wrote about the thorn in his side?

On the contrary, Paul was living in sin and unable to get rid of his new condition caused by the Law. Since Paul could not get rid of the thorn in his flesh he decided to make of himself an exception to the rule not to serve two masters: God in his mind only and sin in his flesh. (Rom. 7:25; Mat. 6:24) He had to do that because he considered himself a wretched man without the strength to deliver himself from his body of death.(Rom. 7:24)

Ben Masada
July 22nd, 2015, 02:13 AM
Paul was explaining in a very exaggerated way how trying to obey the law without faith was not possible.

It wasn't a "sinful" thorn in Paul's side. Paul says the thorn was a messenger of Satan.
What do messengers do? Think about it. Messengers give messages. What kind of messages would Paul be getting from the messenger of Satan? Paul says, "That is why, for Christ’s sake, I delight in weaknesses, in insults, in hardships, in persecutions, in difficulties. For when I am weak, then I am strong."
The messenger of Satan was likely telling Paul the messages from Satan! Satan was probably tormenting Paul by describing the hardships and persecutions and difficulties Paul was going to go through.

Ben Masada, you do not obey God. You pretend to be a Jew but you do not have blood to clean yourself. Since you know you have no blood of an animal and a temple in which to sacrifice, you say God did not really say we needed blood.

You exchange the truth of God for a lie.

Nothing to do with faith but repressed feelings that just could not leave him and were for that matter causing him to live as a wretched man without the strength to deliver himself from that body of death. (Rom. 7:24)

Listen GT, have you ever seen that last movie about "Alexander"? If you have, do you recall how AMORAL they lived. For them (Greeks) their style of life was not sinful but for Paul who read Torah as a Jew and found out how the Law condemned his style of life, it was a little too late as his Greek style of life had become for him second nature. Since he could not do any thing about it, he made of himself an exception to the rule that no one can serve two masters and thanked God for serving him in his mind only while serving sin in the flesh. (Rom. 7:25; Mat. 8:24) And he became like the preacher who says, "Do what I say but not what I do for I am a sinner too." Nice try though, but a bad way out.

Ben Masada
July 22nd, 2015, 03:25 AM
Pastors in many if not all denominations teach that falseness, that Paul, after Jesus saved him, struggled with sin so much and was the worst of sinners.

So many Christians say that in Romans 7, Paul was speaking of his life after Jesus saved him, that he could not stop sinning, that he could not do good, that he was a wretched man. I can hardly believe that people actually believe Apostle Paul was speaking of himself as a sinner AFTER Jesus saved him. That is utterly absurd.

Do you really believe Paul is calling himself a wretched man after Jesus saved him? No way had Paul spoke of himself in such a way after Jesus saved him. Paul asks, “Who will rescue me from this body that is subject to death?” Jesus saved Paul from his body of death! Through life through the Spirit, we are no longer slaves to sin! Read Romans chapter 8. In Romans chapter 8, you will learn about life for Paul and all true believers.

If you want to know how to stop sinning, I will tell you how.

You do not know how because no one can stop sinning. To stop sinning is to become righteous and there none on earth who does only good and never sins. (Eccles. 7:20) One stops sinning only when he or she dies. Paul considered himself a wretched man because he could not stop sinning. (Rom. 7:24)

Ben Masada
July 22nd, 2015, 03:36 AM
Where does it say in his side? It just says in his flesh. Meaning a physical problem.

Anyway i would guess his physical issue was his eyesight.

Galatians 4:15 Where is then the blessedness ye spake of? for I bear you record, that, if it had been possible, ye would have plucked out your own eyes, and have given them to me.

https://www.blueletterbible.org/faq/thorn.cfm

In his side is just an embellishment of "in his flesh". You are making a big deal our of nothing. Yea, Paul's thorn in his flesh was indeed physical but sinful. It was akin to his lifestyle as a Hellenistic Jew. Hellenists in general were Amoral. Paul's problem with his eyes was due to his condition as an epileptic which is also called the "fall" disease. Hence, Paul fell from his horse when he had that attack on the Road to Damascus. But epilepsy or an eye condition is not sinful. Sinful was the condition whose feelings he tried to repress and became a miserable man trying. (Rom. 7:24)

Ben Masada
July 22nd, 2015, 03:47 AM
Please evaluate your interpretation Ben Masada, and see if it comes into agreement with this Bible verse.

Acts 21:24 NASB - 24 take them and purify yourself along with them, and pay their expenses so that they may shave their heads; and all will know that there is nothing to the things which they have been told about you, but that you yourself also walk orderly, keeping the Law.

It didn't help though. In this text above, James was advising Paul to camouflage himself in the Temple to make believe that he had nothing to do with the Jewish accusation from abroad that he was teaching the Jews to stop circumcising their children, to abandon "Moses" aka the Law as well as all the Jewish customs. (Acts 21:21) It didn't help as I said because Jews from Asia Minor had come to the Temple for that festival and recognized Paul and arrested him and reported him to the authorities and he had to appear in Court. (Acts 21:28) From that arrest, Paul never got free again. He appealed to Caesar, was taken to Rome, stayed in house arrest and died two years later. (Acts 28:30)

God's Truth
July 22nd, 2015, 04:06 AM
Nothing to do with faith but repressed feelings that just could not leave him and were for that matter causing him to live as a wretched man without the strength to deliver himself from that body of death. (Rom. 7:24)

Listen GT, have you ever seen that last movie about "Alexander"? If you have, do you recall how AMORAL they lived. For them (Greeks) their style of life was not sinful but for Paul who read Torah as a Jew and found out how the Law condemned his style of life, it was a little too late as his Greek style of life had become for him second nature. Since he could not do any thing about it, he made of himself an exception to the rule that no one can serve two masters and thanked God for serving him in his mind only while serving sin in the flesh. (Rom. 7:25; Mat. 8:24) And he became like the preacher who says, "Do what I say but not what I do for I am a sinner too." Nice try though, but a bad way out.
You are badly mistaken not knowing the scriptures or the power of God.

Jesus says not to be a hypocrite as the Pharisees were.

Matthew 23:3 So you must be careful to do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach.

God's Truth
July 22nd, 2015, 04:08 AM
You do not know how because no one can stop sinning. To stop sinning is to become righteous and there none on earth who does only good and never sins. (Eccles. 7:20) One stops sinning only when he or she dies. Paul considered himself a wretched man because he could not stop sinning. (Rom. 7:24)

We can stop sinning. You bear false witness against Paul. Paul beat his body and made it a slave so that he would not be disqualified as he preached to others.


1 Corinthians 9:27 No, I strike a blow to my body and make it my slave so that after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified for the prize.

Ben Masada
July 22nd, 2015, 04:27 AM
You are badly mistaken not knowing the scriptures or the power of God.

Jesus says not to be a hypocrite as the Pharisees were.

Matthew 23:3 So you must be careful to do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach.

No, this attitude was of Paul and not of the Pharisees. Paul was the with the characteristic of the preacher that says, "Do as I say, though not as I do for I am a sinner too." That's why he served God in his mind only while serving sin in his flesh. (Rom. 7:25) Jesus would never insult the Pharisees that way because he was a Pharisee too.

Ben Masada
July 22nd, 2015, 04:33 AM
We can stop sinning. You bear false witness against Paul. Paul beat his body and made it a slave so that he would not be disqualified as he preached to others.

1 Corinthians 9:27 No, I strike a blow to my body and make it my slave so that after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified for the prize.

Paul indeed tried hard to subject his body to God's Law but he couldn't because the feelings to satisfy the craves of the flesh would just not go away.

God's Truth
July 22nd, 2015, 04:39 AM
Paul indeed tried hard to subject his body to God's Law but he couldn't because the feelings to satisfy the craves of the flesh would just not go away.

Paul was explaining what it is for someone without faith.

Ben Masada
July 22nd, 2015, 04:43 AM
Paul was explaining what it is for someone without faith.

I thought he knew by then what was someone without faith. When he said that Christians are to walk by faith and not by sight, the meaning is that to walk by faith is to walk in the dark and, to walk by sight is to walk with understanding. (II Cor. 5:7)

chrysostom
July 22nd, 2015, 04:43 AM
are you saying paul was no longer sinning when he wrote about the thorn in his side?


On the contrary, Paul was living in sin and unable to get rid of his new condition caused by the Law.

what was his new condition?
and
how was it caused by the law?

God's Truth
July 22nd, 2015, 04:43 AM
No, this attitude was of Paul and not of the Pharisees. Paul was the with the characteristic of the preacher that says, "Do as I say, though not as I do for I am a sinner too." That's why he served God in his mind only while serving sin in his flesh. (Rom. 7:25) Jesus would never insult the Pharisees that way because he was a Pharisee too.

Paul trained himself and we are to train ourselves.

Luke 6:40 A student is not above his teacher, but everyone who is fully trained will be like his teacher.

1 Corinthians 9:25 Everyone who competes in the games goes into strict training. They do it to get a crown that will not last; but we do it to get a crown that will last forever.

1 Timothy 4:7, 8 Have nothing to do with godless myths and old wives’ tales; rather, train yourself to be godly. For physical training is of some value, but godliness has value for all things, holding promise for both the present life and the life to come.

2 Timothy 3:16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness,

Titus 2:4 Then they can train the younger women to love their husbands and children,

Hebrews 5:14 But solid food is for the mature, who by constant use have trained themselves to distinguish good from evil.

Hebrews 12:11 No discipline seems pleasant at the time, but painful. Later on, however, it produces a harvest of righteousness and peace for those who have been trained by it.

God's Truth
July 22nd, 2015, 04:47 AM
I thought he knew by then what was someone without faith. When he said that Christians are to walk by faith and not by sight, the meaning is that to walk by faith is to walk in the dark and, to walk by sight is to walk with understanding. (II Cor. 5:7)

Again, Paul was explaining in a very exaggerated way what it is like for someone under the old law without faith.

The old law was not based on faith (Galatians 3:12, but the new law of Christ is (Romans 3:27, 1 Corinthians 9:21, and Galatians 6:2).

Ben Masada
July 22nd, 2015, 05:00 AM
what was his new condition?
and
how was it caused by the law?

Paul's condition was sinful and, it was caused by the Law because as a Hellenistic Jew he either did not know that it was sinful or he never cared it was sinful or not. But when he found out from reading the Law that it was a sinful condition, he became a wretched man for trying to repress his sinful feelings that just didn't seem to go away. Now, what was it? Have you ever seen that last movie about "Alexander" and how the Hellenics were amoral? If you have seen that movie, you would understand that Paul was a gay man. He was a bachelor who lived with another Hellenistic Jew, also a bachelor called Barnabas. They lived together and were expelled from the town of Antioch because they were advising the young men not to take a wife and be as they were, free of women. (Acts 13:50; I Cor. 7:1,8) If you read the whole text of Romans 7:8-25 you will understand what I mean.

God's Truth
July 22nd, 2015, 05:26 AM
Paul's condition was sinful and, it was caused by the Law because as a Hellenistic Jew he either did not know that it was sinful or he never cared it was sinful or not. But when he found out from reading the Law that it was a sinful condition, he became a wretched man for trying to repress his sinful feelings that just didn't seem to go away. Now, what was it? Have you ever seen that last movie about "Alexander" and how the Hellenics were amoral? If you have seen that movie, you would understand that Paul was a gay man. He was a bachelor who lived with another Hellenistic Jew, also a bachelor called Barnabas. They lived together and were expelled from the town of Antioch because they were advising the young men not to take a wife and be as they were, free of women. (Acts 13:50; I Cor. 7:1,8) If you read the whole text of Romans 7:8-25 you will understand what I mean.

You bear false witness against the Apostle Paul.

How is it you lie so easily and say that Paul was gay?

Paul was circumcised on the eighth day, of the people of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of Hebrews; in regard to the law, a Pharisee; he was a Pharisee, descended from Pharisees. He was a Jew, born in Tarsus of Cilicia, and studied under Gamaliel and was thoroughly trained in the law. The Jewish people all knew the way he had lived ever since he was a child, from the beginning of his life in his own country, and also in Jerusalem. They had known him for a long time and could testify that he conformed to the strictest sect of their religion, living as a Pharisee.

Philippians 3:5, Acts 22:3, Acts 23:6, Acts 26:4, 5, Romans 11:1.

Ben Masada
July 22nd, 2015, 06:43 AM
Again, Paul was explaining in a very exaggerated way what it is like for someone under the old law without faith.

The old law was not based on faith (Galatians 3:12, but the new law of Christ is (Romans 3:27, 1 Corinthians 9:21, and Galatians 6:2).

Jesus gave no new law. He came to confirm God's Law down to the letter. That's why he implied in his parable of the Richman and Lazarus that the only way to escape hell-fire is by listening to "Moses" aka the Law. (Luke 16:31)

Ben Masada
July 22nd, 2015, 06:49 AM
You bear false witness against the Apostle Paul.

How is it you lie so easily and say that Paul was gay?

Paul was circumcised on the eighth day, of the people of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of Hebrews; in regard to the law, a Pharisee; he was a Pharisee, descended from Pharisees. He was a Jew, born in Tarsus of Cilicia, and studied under Gamaliel and was thoroughly trained in the law. The Jewish people all knew the way he had lived ever since he was a child, from the beginning of his life in his own country, and also in Jerusalem. They had known him for a long time and could testify that he conformed to the strictest sect of their religion, living as a Pharisee.

Philippians 3:5, Acts 22:3, Acts 23:6, Acts 26:4, 5, Romans 11:1.

Paul was never a Pharisee because the Sect of the Pharisees would never allow Hellenistic Jews into their ranks. Hellenistic Jews were amoral. They had no sense of morality. Paul adopted Jewish Morality when he founded Christianity but could never get rid of his repressed homosexual feelings. That's why he became a wretched man for the rest of his life. (Rom. 7:24)

Jacob
July 22nd, 2015, 10:41 AM
It didn't help though. In this text above, James was advising Paul to camouflage himself in the Temple to make believe that he had nothing to do with the Jewish accusation from abroad that he was teaching the Jews to stop circumcising their children, to abandon "Moses" aka the Law as well as all the Jewish customs. (Acts 21:21) It didn't help as I said because Jews from Asia Minor had come to the Temple for that festival and recognized Paul and arrested him and reported him to the authorities and he had to appear in Court. (Acts 21:28) From that arrest, Paul never got free again. He appealed to Caesar, was taken to Rome, stayed in house arrest and died two years later. (Acts 28:30)Paul kept the Law, including this that involved sacrifice even following Jesus' death, burial, and resurrection.

What he did not do was tell Gentiles they must be circumcised and observe the entire Law of Moses. There should be no issue here.

heir
July 22nd, 2015, 10:49 AM
On the contrary, Paul was living in sin and unable to get rid of his new condition caused by the Law. Since Paul could not get rid of the thorn in his flesh he decided to make of himself an exception to the rule not to serve two masters: God in his mind only and sin in his flesh. (Rom. 7:25; Mat. 6:24) He had to do that because he considered himself a wretched man without the strength to deliver himself from his body of death.(Rom. 7:24)Paul couldn’t get out of (escape from) his flesh any more than you or I! We’re stuck with our vile body until the Lord changes it!


Philippians 3:21 Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.

And since you believe not the glorious gospel of Christ, yours will crawl with worms in hell!

Mark 9:44 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

glorydaz
July 22nd, 2015, 12:39 PM
Paul was never a Pharisee because the Sect of the Pharisees would never allow Hellenistic Jews into their ranks. Hellenistic Jews were amoral. They had no sense of morality. Paul adopted Jewish Morality when he founded Christianity but could never get rid of his repressed homosexual feelings. That's why he became a wretched man for the rest of his life. (Rom. 7:24)

Paul was speaking as a man under the law....carnal, wretched, sold under sin. He was not speaking of the man who had been delivered from the law. In fact, Paul wrote Romans chapters 6-8 just for the Jews who accused him of misrepresenting the law and it's purpose. I can see you still don't get it.


Romans 6:17-18 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you. Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

glorydaz
July 22nd, 2015, 12:41 PM
Again-it is a reference to people who opposed Paul's message, as "thorn in the flesh" was a common figure of speech at the time, akin to today's "a pain in the neck."

"But if ye will not drive out the inhabitants of the land from before you; then it shall come to pass, that those which ye let remain of them shall be pricks in your eyes, and thorns in your sides, and shall vex you in the land wherein ye dwell." Numbers 33:55 KJV

Notice "those."

"Know for a certainty that the LORD your God will no more drive out any of these nations from before you; but they shall be snares and traps unto you, and scourges in your sides, and thorns in your eyes, until ye perish from off this good land which the LORD your God hath given you." Joshua 23:13 KJV

Notice "they."

"Wherefore I also said, I will not drive them out from before you; but they shall be as thorns in your sides, and their gods shall be a snare unto you." Judges 2:3 KJV

Notice "they...their."

Survey this great book.

Once again, the great John W. has it correct. :thumb:

God's Truth
July 22nd, 2015, 01:04 PM
Jesus gave no new law. He came to confirm God's Law down to the letter. That's why he implied in his parable of the Richman and Lazarus that the only way to escape hell-fire is by listening to "Moses" aka the Law. (Luke 16:31)

The scriptures say we have a new law, and that it is the old law with some changes, Hebrews 7:12.

All you do is pick and chose what you want to believe from the Bible and then throw out the rest. You made for yourself a fictional Bible and a fictional Jesus.

God's Truth
July 22nd, 2015, 01:06 PM
Paul was never a Pharisee because the Sect of the Pharisees would never allow Hellenistic Jews into their ranks. Hellenistic Jews were amoral. They had no sense of morality. Paul adopted Jewish Morality when he founded Christianity but could never get rid of his repressed homosexual feelings. That's why he became a wretched man for the rest of his life. (Rom. 7:24)

Again, you have made for yourself a fictional Book with fictional people.

Get the Holy Bible and believe.

God's Truth
July 22nd, 2015, 01:07 PM
Paul couldn’t get out of (escape from) his flesh any more than you or I! We’re stuck with our vile body until the Lord changes it!


Philippians 3:21 Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.

And since you believe not the glorious gospel of Christ, yours will crawl with worms in hell!

Mark 9:44 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

No way is the body of the saints vile.

God's Truth
July 22nd, 2015, 01:08 PM
Who says our bodies that Jesus washed with his blood are vile!

Jacob
July 22nd, 2015, 01:15 PM
The scriptures say we have a new law, and that it is the old law with some changes, Hebrews 7:12.

All you do is pick and chose what you want to believe from the Bible and then throw out the rest. You made for yourself a fictional Bible and a fictional Jesus.If there is a new law is it the old law with some changes or a change from one law (which would then be called the old law apparently) to another (law)?

The change of Law is associated with a change of priesthood. Jesus is the priest. It's not the Levitical priesthood anymore.

Ben Masada
July 23rd, 2015, 01:35 AM
Who says our bodies that Jesus washed with his blood are vile!

Either vile or not. The truth is that it never happen at all. (Jer. 31:30: Ezek. 18:20) No one can die so that his or her blood could wash the body of another.

Ben Masada
July 23rd, 2015, 01:39 AM
Again, you have made for yourself a fictional Book with fictional people.

Get the Holy Bible and believe.

And you must set aside for at least a short time your Christian preconceived notions and try a little harder to understand Paul's wretched life as a result of the thorn in his flesh by reading Romans 7:8-25. Paul's whole mystery is in that text.

Ben Masada
July 23rd, 2015, 01:44 AM
The scriptures say we have a new law, and that it is the old law with some changes, Hebrews 7:12.

All you do is pick and chose what you want to believe from the Bible and then throw out the rest. You made for yourself a fictional Bible and a fictional Jesus.

What scripture, the gospel of Paul? That's a lying scripture. The only Scripture Jesus had in mind every time he spoke of God's Word was the Tanach. The NT he never even dreamed would ever rise.

Ben Masada
July 23rd, 2015, 01:53 AM
Paul was speaking as a man under the law....carnal, wretched, sold under sin. He was not speaking of the man who had been delivered from the law. In fact, Paul wrote Romans chapters 6-8 just for the Jews who accused him of misrepresenting the law and it's purpose. I can see you still don't get it.


Romans 6:17-18 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you. Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

Paul himself arrived to the conclusion that he had to make of himself an exception to the rule that one cannot serve two masters and he decided to serve God in his mind only while serving sin in his flesh. He hated that kind of life but, what could he do if he was carnal and sold under sin? (Rom. 7:14) That's his self testimony.

Ben Masada
July 23rd, 2015, 02:00 AM
Paul couldn’t get out of (escape from) his flesh any more than you or I! We’re stuck with our vile body until the Lord changes it!


Philippians 3:21 Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.

And since you believe not the glorious gospel of Christ, yours will crawl with worms in hell!

Mark 9:44 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

If you believe Jesus was a Jew, how hard is it to believe that his glorious gospel was Judaism? I do. In that case, you are the one from whose body worms will come out in hell and not myself who believes in the glorious gospel of Jesus.

Ben Masada
July 23rd, 2015, 02:06 AM
Paul kept the Law, including this that involved sacrifice even following Jesus' death, burial, and resurrection.

What he did not do was tell Gentiles they must be circumcised and observe the entire Law of Moses. There should be no issue here.

Sorry, but it seems to me, you do not understand what you read. Paul used to teach to the Jews themselves to stop circumcising their children when he and Jesus himself had been circumcised on their 8th day of life. Paul had deserted Judaism forever. (Acts 21:21; Luke 2:21

God's Truth
July 23rd, 2015, 02:16 AM
What scripture, the gospel of Paul? That's a lying scripture. The only Scripture Jesus had in mind every time he spoke of God's Word was the Tanach. The NT he never even dreamed would ever rise.

Hebrews 7:12 For when the priesthood is changed, the law must be changed also.

Jesus changed somethings about the old law.

There is no more eye for an eye.

We can forgive people for moral type of sin such as adultery. They do not have to be put to death. We can find mercy and forgiveness through Jesus Christ.

We do not have to get circumcised in the flesh, or adhere to a dietary law.

We do not have to observe special days.

We do not have to sacrifice animals.

We do not have to do various external washings just to worship God.

We no longer have to go to a temple to worship God, for we become the temple.

God's Truth
July 23rd, 2015, 02:21 AM
And you must set aside for at least a short time your Christian preconceived notions and try a little harder to understand Paul's wretched life as a result of the thorn in his flesh by reading Romans 7:8-25. Paul's whole mystery is in that text.

You want to hang on your perverseness.

God's Truth
July 23rd, 2015, 02:23 AM
If there is a new law is it the old law with some changes or a change from one law (which would then be called the old law apparently) to another (law)?

The change of Law is associated with a change of priesthood. Jesus is the priest. It's not the Levitical priesthood anymore.

Right, for there were changes to the old law. The old law with it's changes is our new law.

God's Truth
July 23rd, 2015, 02:24 AM
Sorry, but it seems to me, you do not understand what you read. Paul used to teach to the Jews themselves to stop circumcising their children when he and Jesus himself had been circumcised on their 8th day of life. Paul had deserted Judaism forever. (Acts 21:21; Luke 2:21

Circumcision was no longer required after Jesus came and died.

Circumcision is of the heart by the Holy Spirit.

God's Truth
July 23rd, 2015, 02:25 AM
If you believe Jesus was a Jew, how hard is it to believe that his glorious gospel was Judaism? I do. In that case, you are the one from whose body worms will come out in hell and not myself who believes in the glorious gospel of Jesus.

You and heir are probably right about each other.

God's Truth
July 23rd, 2015, 02:27 AM
What scripture, the gospel of Paul? That's a lying scripture. The only Scripture Jesus had in mind every time he spoke of God's Word was the Tanach. The NT he never even dreamed would ever rise.

The scripture Paul preached is what Jesus preached when he was on earth.

Ben Masada
July 23rd, 2015, 02:44 AM
1 - Hebrews 7:12 For when the priesthood is changed, the law must be changed also.

2 - Jesus changed somethings about the old law.

3 - There is no more eye for an eye.

4 - We can forgive people for moral type of sin such as adultery. They do not have to be put to death. We can find mercy and forgiveness through Jesus Christ.

5 - We do not have to get circumcised in the flesh, or adhere to a dietary law.

6 - We do not have to observe special days.

7 - We do not have to sacrifice animals.

8 - We do not have to do various external washings just to worship God.

9 - We no longer have to go to a temple to worship God, for we become the temple.

1 - Do you see now why I said that the gospel of Paul is a gospel of lies?

2 - Another lie if you read Mat. 5:17-19.

3 - There was never such a thing as "an eye for an eye." The meaning was on the value of the eye depending on the person. A blind person still has an eye but it is worth nothing. How could it be "an eye for an eye?"

4 - That's an evidence that you have never read the Scriptures with understanding. Never in the History of Israel someone was killed because of adultery. The threat served only as a warrant or fence to prevent a woman to commit adultery.

5 - Of course you don't! You are not Jewish. Circumcision is not for the Gentiles but for the Jews.

6 - Of course you don't! You are not Jewish. Your gospel is the gospel of Paul, not that of Jesus.

7 - And I hope we will never have to return to it. Anyway Prophet Jeremiah said that HaShem never commanded in the first place that sacrifices be a part of the religion of Israel. (Jer. 7:22)

8 - Neither do we. Perhaps you learned that from the Moslems.

9 - Gentiles never had to go to a Temple to worship God but, to become the Temple of God, I think you are living a delusion. Believe me for you are. I doubt that you have any idea about being a Temple of God.

Ben Masada
July 23rd, 2015, 02:52 AM
You want to hang on your perverseness.

You are already giving signs that you can't uphold interfaith dialogue.

Ben Masada
July 23rd, 2015, 02:55 AM
Circumcision was no longer required after Jesus came and died.

Circumcision is of the heart by the Holy Spirit.

Nevertheless, after Jesus came, he was circumcised and after he died, it was only obvious that he couldn't. Circumcision of the heart! A circumcision that neither Paul observed nor any of his followers.

Ben Masada
July 23rd, 2015, 03:01 AM
The scripture Paul preached is what Jesus preached when he was on earth.

Jesus never preached against "Moses" aka the Law. (Luke 16:31) The opposite was rather true that to listen to "Moses" aka the Law, Jesus implied that it was the only way to escape hell. Jesus never preached about the Greek myth of the demigod which was the son of a god with an earthly woman. (Mat. 1:18) Paul did all the above and much more.

Jacob
July 23rd, 2015, 01:13 PM
Sorry, but it seems to me, you do not understand what you read. Paul used to teach to the Jews themselves to stop circumcising their children when he and Jesus himself had been circumcised on their 8th day of life. Paul had deserted Judaism forever. (Acts 21:21;
I personally believe that was not a truth.

Luke 2:21

Jacob
July 23rd, 2015, 01:15 PM
Right, for there were changes to the old law. The old law with it's changes is our new law.This view retains the old covenant Law as a part of the new covenant.

I do appreciate you saying this. In being honest I don't know if it is true or not.

aikido7
July 23rd, 2015, 01:38 PM
Evidently, you are guessing instead of finding out from scripture.

Guessing is a waste of time, when you could look for answers in scripture and find out for sure.

I have yet to see any definitive textual evidence of what the "thorn" in Paul's side actually meant. Scholars have speculated and we can as well, but there is nothing in his authentic letters that points to a definitive answer.

We don't always realize that when we read Paul, we are only reading his response to the communities and churches he was in contact with. It becomes difficult to imagine the whole conversation as his letters only address what he thought that they said and did.

We are privy to a dialogue but the clues can only come from one of the participants.

Jacob
July 23rd, 2015, 01:54 PM
Right, for there were changes to the old law. The old law with it's changes is our new law.

This view retains the old covenant Law as a part of the new covenant.

I do appreciate you saying this. In being honest I don't know if it is true or not.Jeremiah 31:31-34 NASB - 31 "Behold, days are coming," declares the LORD, "when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah, 32 not like the covenant which I made with their fathers in the day I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, although I was a husband to them," declares the LORD. 33 "But this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel after those days," declares the LORD, "I will put My law within them and on their heart I will write it; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. 34 "They will not teach again, each man his neighbor and each man his brother, saying, 'Know the LORD,' for they will all know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them," declares the LORD, "for I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more."

Hebrews 8:7-13 NASB - 7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, there would have been no occasion sought for a second. 8 For finding fault with them, He says, "BEHOLD, DAYS ARE COMING, SAYS THE LORD, WHEN I WILL EFFECT A NEW COVENANT WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AND WITH THE HOUSE OF JUDAH; 9 NOT LIKE THE COVENANT WHICH I MADE WITH THEIR FATHERS ON THE DAY WHEN I TOOK THEM BY THE HAND TO LEAD THEM OUT OF THE LAND OF EGYPT; FOR THEY DID NOT CONTINUE IN MY COVENANT, AND I DID NOT CARE FOR THEM, SAYS THE LORD. 10 "FOR THIS IS THE COVENANT THAT I WILL MAKE WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AFTER THOSE DAYS, SAYS THE LORD: I WILL PUT MY LAWS INTO THEIR MINDS, AND I WILL WRITE THEM ON THEIR HEARTS. AND I WILL BE THEIR GOD, AND THEY SHALL BE MY PEOPLE. 11 "AND THEY SHALL NOT TEACH EVERYONE HIS FELLOW CITIZEN, AND EVERYONE HIS BROTHER, SAYING, 'KNOW THE LORD,' FOR ALL WILL KNOW ME, FROM THE LEAST TO THE GREATEST OF THEM. 12 "FOR I WILL BE MERCIFUL TO THEIR INIQUITIES, AND I WILL REMEMBER THEIR SINS NO MORE." 13 When He said, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear.

The new covenant is different from the old covenant, but I don't know how (I don't know in what manner it is).

Jeremiah 31:32 NASB - 32 not like the covenant which I made with their fathers in the day I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, although I was a husband to them," declares the LORD.

Hebrews 8:7 NASB - 7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, there would have been no occasion sought for a second.

The people broke the old covenant.

The first covenant (the old covenant) was not faultless.

The Law is good, never the less.

Romans 7:12 NASB, Romans 7:14 NASB, Romans 7:16 NASB - 12 So then, the Law is holy, and the commandment is holy and righteous and good. 14 For we know that the Law is spiritual, but I am of flesh, sold into bondage to sin. 16 But if I do the very thing I do not want to do, I agree with the Law, confessing that the Law is good.

1 Timothy 1:8-11 NASB - 8 But we know that the Law is good, if one uses it lawfully, 9 realizing the fact that law is not made for a righteous person, but for those who are lawless and rebellious, for the ungodly and sinners, for the unholy and profane, for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers 10 and immoral men and homosexuals and kidnappers and liars and perjurers, and whatever else is contrary to sound teaching, 11 according to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, with which I have been entrusted.

1 John 3:4 NASB - 4 Everyone who practices sin also practices lawlessness; and sin is lawlessness.

1 John 3:4 KJV - 4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

So we are not supposed to break the Law. But there is a new covenant.

God's Truth
July 24th, 2015, 06:16 AM
1 - Do you see now why I said that the gospel of Paul is a gospel of lies?

2 - Another lie if you read Mat. 5:17-19.

Paul didn't lie. You just do not have understanding and you are trying to attack a chosen of God's.



3 - There was never such a thing as "an eye for an eye." The meaning was on the value of the eye depending on the person. A blind person still has an eye but it is worth nothing. How could it be "an eye for an eye?"

You are speaking nonsense lies. The Old Testament does speak of an eye for an eye.

Exodus 21:24
eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot,

Leviticus 24:20
fracture for fracture, eye for eye, tooth for tooth. The one who has inflicted the injury must suffer the same injury.

Deuteronomy 19:21
Show no pity: life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot.



4 - That's an evidence that you have never read the Scriptures with understanding. Never in the History of Israel someone was killed because of adultery. The threat served only as a warrant or fence to prevent a woman to commit adultery.

You speak illogical nonsense, just so you can promote your false teachings.



5 - Of course you don't! You are not Jewish. Circumcision is not for the Gentiles but for the Jews.

Anyone could convert to Judaism.



6 - Of course you don't! You are not Jewish. Your gospel is the gospel of Paul, not that of Jesus.

7 - And I hope we will never have to return to it. Anyway Prophet Jeremiah said that HaShem never commanded in the first place that sacrifices be a part of the religion of Israel. (Jer. 7:22)

How could you ever get that God did not give Moses the commands to sacrifice animals?



8 - Neither do we. Perhaps you learned that from the Moslems.

9 - Gentiles never had to go to a Temple to worship God but, to become the Temple of God, I think you are living a delusion. Believe me for you are. I doubt that you have any idea about being a Temple of God.

You are in a bad place.

God's Truth
July 24th, 2015, 06:38 AM
You are already giving signs that you can't uphold interfaith dialogue.

You prove you are not right in the heart and head when you speak lies about Apostle Paul.

God's Truth
July 24th, 2015, 06:40 AM
Jesus never preached against "Moses" aka the Law. (Luke 16:31) The opposite was rather true that to listen to "Moses" aka the Law, Jesus implied that it was the only way to escape hell. Jesus never preached about the Greek myth of the demigod which was the son of a god with an earthly woman. (Mat. 1:18) Paul did all the above and much more.

Jesus fulfilled the Law and the Prophets. You have no idea what that means.

God's Truth
July 24th, 2015, 06:43 AM
This view retains the old covenant Law as a part of the new covenant.

I do appreciate you saying this. In being honest I don't know if it is true or not.

Hebrews 7:12 For when the priesthood is changed, the law must be changed also.

God's Truth
July 24th, 2015, 06:51 AM
The new covenant is different from the old covenant, but I don't know how (I don't know in what manner it is).

There are a lot of things the same,




The people broke the old covenant.

The first covenant (the old covenant) was not faultless.

The Law is good, never the less.

Romans 7:12 NASB, Romans 7:14 NASB, Romans 7:16 NASB - 12 So then, the Law is holy, and the commandment is holy and righteous and good. 14 For we know that the Law is spiritual, but I am of flesh, sold into bondage to sin. 16 But if I do the very thing I do not want to do, I agree with the Law, confessing that the Law is good.

The law was not based on faith.

It was difficult for a person to obey the old law if they did not have faith.

Even when someone tries to obey Jesus, if they do not have faith it is difficult.




1 Timothy 1:8-11 NASB - 8 But we know that the Law is good, if one uses it lawfully, 9 realizing the fact that law is not made for a righteous person, but for those who are lawless and rebellious, for the ungodly and sinners, for the unholy and profane, for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers 10 and immoral men and homosexuals and kidnappers and liars and perjurers, and whatever else is contrary to sound teaching, 11 according to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, with which I have been entrusted.

1 John 3:4 NASB - 4 Everyone who practices sin also practices lawlessness; and sin is lawlessness.

1 John 3:4 KJV - 4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

So we are not supposed to break the Law. But there is a new covenant.

We should not break any of Jesus' teachings in the new covenant.

However, if we do, we can find forgiveness and mercy.

john w
July 24th, 2015, 10:30 AM
Hebrews 7:12 For when the priesthood is changed, the law must be changed also.

Jesus changed somethings about the old law.

There is no more eye for an eye.

We can forgive people for moral type of sin such as adultery. They do not have to be put to death. We can find mercy and forgiveness through Jesus Christ.

We do not have to get circumcised in the flesh, or adhere to a dietary law.

We do not have to observe special days.

We do not have to sacrifice animals.

We do not have to do various external washings just to worship God.

We no longer have to go to a temple to worship God, for we become the temple.


Caught, in another lie, deception, as "always," does not mean "always," "everything," does not mean "everything," "all of," does not mean "all of," as...............

"we do not have to....we no longer have to":




"Everything Jesus says stands forever…. Jesus' words are for everyone.....We always have to obey God ...We always have to obey Jesus….........I obey all of Jesus' teachings....I follow all of Jesus teachings, exactly as he says…..Faith is obeying everything that Jesus says."”-God’sUNTruth


Wicked liar, actress.

Jacob
July 24th, 2015, 11:15 AM
Hebrews 7:12 For when the priesthood is changed, the law must be changed also.What is this change of law? (http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=111516)
What is this change of law?

Hebrews 7:12 NASB - 12 For when the priesthood is changed, of necessity there takes place a change of law also.

Jacob
July 24th, 2015, 11:21 AM
There are a lot of things the same,



The law was not based on faith.

It was difficult for a person to obey the old law if they did not have faith.

Even when someone tries to obey Jesus, if they do not have faith it is difficult.



We should not break any of Jesus' teachings in the new covenant.

However, if we do, we can find forgiveness and mercy.law faith

Romans 3:27-28 NASB, Romans 3:31 NASB - 27 Where then is boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? Of works? No, but by a law of faith. 28 For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law. ... 31 Do we then nullify the Law through faith? May it never be! On the contrary, we establish the Law.

Romans 4:13-14 NASB, Romans 4:16 NASB - 13 For the promise to Abraham or to his descendants that he would be heir of the world was not through the Law, but through the righteousness of faith. 14 For if those who are of the Law are heirs, faith is made void and the promise is nullified; ... 16 For this reason it is by faith, in order that it may be in accordance with grace, so that the promise will be guaranteed to all the descendants, not only to those who are of the Law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all,

Galatians 2:16 NASB - 16 nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, so that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified.

Galatians 3:2 NASB, Galatians 3:5 NASB, Galatians 3:11-12 NASB, Galatians 3:23-24 NASB - 2 This is the only thing I want to find out from you: did you receive the Spirit by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith? ... 5 So then, does He who provides you with the Spirit and works miracles among you, do it by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith? ... 11 Now that no one is justified by the Law before God is evident; for, "THE RIGHTEOUS MAN SHALL LIVE BY FAITH." 12 However, the Law is not of faith; on the contrary, "HE WHO PRACTICES THEM SHALL LIVE BY THEM." ... 23 But before faith came, we were kept in custody under the law, being shut up to the faith which was later to be revealed. 24 Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith.

Philippians 3:9 NASB - 9 and may be found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own derived from the Law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which comes from God on the basis of faith,

God's Truth
July 24th, 2015, 01:25 PM
What is this change of law? (http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=111516)

The change in the law is we do not have to be circumcised.

We don't have to adhere to a special diet.

We don't have to observe special days.

We do not have to do various external washings.

We do not have to go to the temple.

We do not have to sacrifice animals.

We do not do eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth, and foot for a foot.

We can find mercy and forgiveness.

If you believe that God knew exactly what would be in the Holy Bible, and that he preserved His Word for us exactly as He wanted, then you should know that we have in the New Testament every command and teaching that is required for us to be in the New Covenant.

Jacob
July 24th, 2015, 01:29 PM
The change in the law is we do not have to be circumcised.

We don't have to adhere to a special diet.

We don't have to observe special days.

We do not have to do various external washings.

We do not have to go to the temple.

We do not have to sacrifice animals.

We do not do eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth, and foot for a foot.

We can find mercy and forgiveness.

If you believe that God knew exactly what would be in the Holy Bible, and that he preserved His Word for us exactly as He wanted, then you should know that we have in the New Testament every command and teaching that is required for to be in the New Covenant.There are 1050 commands in the New Testament writings. What commands of God are part of the new covenant? Is the error in saying some commands of the old covenant do not apply today?

God's Truth
July 24th, 2015, 01:35 PM
There are 1050 commands in the New Testament writings.
What commands of God are part of the new covenant?

I do not understand that question.




Is the error in saying some commands of the old covenant do not apply today?

Jesus fulfilled the Law and the Prophets.

Jacob
July 24th, 2015, 01:37 PM
I do not understand that question.

Jesus fulfilled the Law and the Prophets.Jesus did not come to abolish but to fulfill.

Does the new covenant have any additional commands? Or, what are the commands of the new covenant?

God's Truth
July 24th, 2015, 01:38 PM
Jesus did not come to abolish but to fulfill.

Does the new covenant have any additional commands? Or, what are the commands of the new covenant?

You will have to get into that with the person you admired that counted all the commands.

Jacob
July 24th, 2015, 01:40 PM
You will have to get into that with the person you admired that counted all the commands.The old covenant or the new covenant?

God's Truth
July 24th, 2015, 01:41 PM
The old covenant or the new covenant?

Don't you know what you posted?

Jacob
July 24th, 2015, 01:44 PM
Don't you know what you posted?
Yes, but I don't know if you understand the question you asked.

aikido7
July 24th, 2015, 01:47 PM
There is a lot of guesswork when we read Paul's letters.

We are basically only hearing one side of a conversation and therefore we will never be sure what is actually going on between the apostle and the church communities he was in contact with.

Jacob
July 24th, 2015, 01:48 PM
I don't know who counted the new covenant commands. But as for admiring those who have counted commands, why admire? The Torah commands have been counted by different people throughout time.

God's Truth
July 24th, 2015, 11:10 PM
There is a lot of guesswork when we read Paul's letters.

We are basically only hearing one side of a conversation and therefore we will never be sure what is actually going on between the apostle and the church communities he was in contact with.

We can know we can be sure.

God's Truth
July 24th, 2015, 11:11 PM
I don't know who counted the new covenant commands. But as for admiring those who have counted commands, why admire? The Torah commands have been counted by different people throughout time.

You are the one who posted how many commands the New Testament has.

1Mind1Spirit
July 24th, 2015, 11:19 PM
You are the one who posted how many commands the New Testament has.

And you are the one who says you obey all of them.

God's Truth
July 25th, 2015, 04:33 AM
And you are the one who says you obey all of them.

If you were saved, you would know how one obeys easily and all of the commands.

1Mind1Spirit
July 25th, 2015, 02:20 PM
If you were saved, you would know how one obeys easily and all of the commands.

Saved has nothing to do with it.

I've learned to cease from my own works.

That you haven't yet is apparent for all to see in yer speech.

aikido7
July 25th, 2015, 02:41 PM
We can know we can be sure.That makes no sense at all.

meshak
July 25th, 2015, 05:48 PM
There are 1050 commands in the New Testament writings. What commands of God are part of the new covenant? Is the error in saying some commands of the old covenant do not apply today?

Jesus says to love God and love one another. This is Jesus' commands.

You should be able to discern what needs to be observed. Jesus explained greatly how to do it in His sermon on the mount.

You don't need to be baby fed if you are serious Jesus' followers.

meshak
July 25th, 2015, 05:52 PM
And you are the one who says you obey all of them.

She endorses killing their enemy against Jesus' command of love your enemy.

go figure, how crazy she is.

She also claims to be sinless and saved and true Christian too.

Jacob
July 25th, 2015, 10:57 PM
You are the one who posted how many commands the New Testament has.I don't see anything wrong with posting that. Do you?

Jacob
July 25th, 2015, 10:59 PM
Jesus says to love God and love one another. This is Jesus' commands.

You should be able to discern what needs to be observed. Jesus explained greatly how to do it in His sermon on the mount.

You don't need to be baby fed if you are serious Jesus' followers.I believe Jesus taught what the scriptures before Him said in regard to what you say here (this). Love God and love your neighbor.

God's Truth
July 26th, 2015, 01:59 AM
Saved has nothing to do with it.
Obeying Jesus has everything to do with being saved.

How else do you think you will be rewarded?

How else do you think you will live through him?

How else do you think Jesus will live through you?

How else do you think you eat his flesh?

How else do you think you are clothed with him?



I've learned to cease from my own works.

Jesus' teachings are not your works they are God's works, and you have to do them if you want to be saved.



That you haven't yet is apparent for all to see in yer speech.

You a false judge that is what is apparent.

God's Truth
July 26th, 2015, 02:04 AM
She endorses killing their enemy against Jesus' command of love your enemy.

go figure, how crazy she is.

She also claims to be sinless and saved and true Christian too.

Matthew 8:8 The centurion replied, “Lord, I do not deserve to have you come under my roof. But just say the word, and my servant will be healed. 9 For I myself am a man under authority, with soldiers under me. I tell this one, ‘Go,’ and he goes; and that one, ‘Come,’ and he comes. I say to my servant, ‘Do this,’ and he does it.”
10 When Jesus heard this, he was amazed and said to those following him, “Truly I tell you, I have not found anyone in Israel with such great faith. 11 I say to you that many will come from the east and the west, and will take their places at the feast with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven. 12 But the subjects of the kingdom will be thrown outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.”
13 Then Jesus said to the centurion, “Go! Let it be done just as you believed it would.” And his servant was healed at that moment.


Jesus did not tell the centurion to stop having soldiers.

God's Truth
July 26th, 2015, 02:05 AM
I don't see anything wrong with posting that. Do you?

I just do not see the purpose in counting them.

Jacob
July 26th, 2015, 09:15 AM
I just do not see the purpose in counting them.Okay. But do you think any or all of them need to be obeyed?

Danoh
July 26th, 2015, 09:48 AM
She endorses killing their enemy against Jesus' command of love your enemy...

Never mind that Israel was then under a foreign military occupation by God's own hand for Israel's disobedience prior to the Babylonian captivity and though the Roman occupation and was thus not to raise its hand against said occupation.

You Scripturally illiterate fool; that was under Moses - Daniel 9:11-12; John 19:11.

Ben Masada
July 27th, 2015, 12:54 AM
1 - Obeying Jesus has everything to do with being saved.

2 - How else do you think you will be rewarded?

3 - How else do you think you will live through him?

4 - How else do you think Jesus will live through you?

5 - How else do you think you eat his flesh?

6 - How else do you think you are clothed with him?

7 - Jesus' teachings are not your works they are God's works, and you have to do them if you want to be saved.

1 - Saved from what? And, how can one obey the dead?

2 - I don't think about reward to obey the Lord. Only dogs behave for a treat.

3 - I don't think that way but through the obedience of God's Law.

4 - I don't think the dead can live again.

5 - I have never thought as a cannibal.

6 - I have never thought I could be clothed with the dead.

7 - What Jesus used to teach is still the work of God. And that's what I teach too. And I am sure, you cannot say the same about you.

God's Truth
July 27th, 2015, 02:24 AM
Okay. But do you think any or all of them need to be obeyed?

What do you think?

God's Truth
July 27th, 2015, 02:26 AM
1 - Saved from what? And, how can one obey the dead?

2 - I don't think about reward to obey the Lord. Only dogs behave for a treat.

3 - I don't think that way but through the obedience of God's Law.

4 - I don't think the dead can live again.

5 - I have never thought as a cannibal.

6 - I have never thought I could be clothed with the dead.

7 - What Jesus used to teach is still the work of God. And that's what I teach too. And I am sure, you cannot say the same about you.

Okay, then die in your sins.

Ben Masada
July 27th, 2015, 03:32 AM
Okay, then die in your sins.

Committed because... probably because I don't take your teaching for granted? I am Jewish and so was Jesus. What do "we" have anything to do with what you teach? Sorry but you don't teach any thing from the gospel of Jesus but all from the gospel of Paul.

Jacob
July 27th, 2015, 11:32 AM
What do you think?What do I think about what you think or what do I think about the question I asked you, for myself?

God's Truth
July 27th, 2015, 12:06 PM
Committed because... probably because I don't take your teaching for granted? I am Jewish and so was Jesus. What do "we" have anything to do with what you teach? Sorry but you don't teach any thing from the gospel of Jesus but all from the gospel of Paul.

John 8:24 I told you that you would die in your sins; if you do not believe that I am he, you will indeed die in your sins."

Isaiah 53:4Surely our griefs He Himself bore, And our sorrows He carried; Yet we ourselves esteemed Him stricken, Smitten of God, and afflicted. 5But He was pierced through for our transgressions, He was crushed for our iniquities; The chastening for our well-being fell upon Him, And by His scourging we are healed. 6All of us like sheep have gone astray, Each of us has turned to his own way; But the LORD has caused the iniquity of us all To fall on Him.…

Isaiah 53:8
By oppression and judgment he was taken away. Yet who of his generation protested? For he was cut off from the land of the living; for the transgression of my people he was punished.

Isaiah 53:10
Yet it was the LORD's will to crush him and cause him to suffer, and though the LORD makes his life an offering for sin, he will see his offspring and prolong his days, and the will of the LORD will prosper in his hand.

Isaiah 53:11
After he has suffered, he will see the light of life and be satisfied; by his knowledge my righteous servant will justify many, and he will bear their iniquities.

Ben Masada
July 29th, 2015, 06:50 AM
[quote]John 8:24 I told you that you would die in your sins; if you do not believe that I am he, you will indeed die in your sins."

He who? Every one will die in his sins whether he believes in him or not.


Isaiah 53:4Surely our griefs He Himself bore, And our sorrows He carried; Yet we ourselves esteemed Him stricken, Smitten of God, and afflicted. 5But He was pierced through for our transgressions, He was crushed for our iniquities; The chastening for our well-being fell upon Him, And by His scourging we are healed. 6All of us like sheep have gone astray, Each of us has turned to his own way; But the LORD has caused the iniquity of us all To fall on Him.…

This is a reference to Israel for the sake of Judah.


Isaiah 53:8 By oppression and judgment he was taken away. Yet who of his generation protested? For he was cut off from the land of the living; for the transgression of my people he was punished.

That's a reference to Israel who suffered for the transgression of Judah. (Psa. 78:67-70)


Isaiah 53:10 Yet it was the LORD's will to crush him and cause him to suffer, and though the LORD makes his life an offering for sin, he will see his offspring and prolong his days, and the will of the LORD will prosper in his hand.

That's a reference to Israel on behalf of Judah. (Psa. 78:67-70)


Isaiah 53:11 After he has suffered, he will see the light of life and be satisfied; by his knowledge my righteous servant will justify many, and he will bear their iniquities.

The righteous servant was Israel who suffered to justify many from the Tribe of Judah.

Jacob
March 30th, 2017, 08:40 PM
Did Paul Follow God's Law as a Believer?Shalom.

This is a great question Ben Masada.

Shalom.

Jacob