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northwye
July 19th, 2015, 08:52 AM
The Dispensationalist Focus Upon Old Covenant Israel

Why would people who claim to be Christians - the dispensationalists - make such an issue about Old Covenant Israel somehow remaining now as the chosen people of God? What is the reason, the motivation, for such a strong focus upon Old Covenant israel?

Should not our focus be more upon having Christ in us? ""My little children, of whom I travail in birth again until Christ be formed in you," Galatians 4: 19

"Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:"Philippians2: 5

"Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:"Colossians 1: 26-17

But no, the dispensationalists are focused on Old Covenant Israel.

John Hagee has made John 4: 22 stand out in his promotion of Christian Zionism, which is a more extreme form of dispensationalism. The text says "...we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews."

Salvation is from Jesus Christ, not from men. What Christ means in John 4: 22 is that those of Old Covenant Israel, of the bloodline from Abraham, were first made aware of salvation and salvation was first offered to them when Christ appeared ("I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.") Matthew 15: 24 Genesis 49: 18 says " I have waited for thy salvation, O Lord.

The Jews do not possess salvation and are able to give it to those who are not Jews. The rabbis do teach that "he" in Isaiah 53 is not Jesus Christ but the people of Old Covenant Israel, or now of Talmudic Judaism.

And having been taught that the people of Old Covenant Israel are now the chosen people of God, the followers of dispensationalism believe that the promises to Abraham in Genesis 17: 4-11 apply literally, and only to the physical bloodline from Abraham through Issac and Jacob, and these promises apply forever. For dispensationalists those in Talmudic Judaism are of the bloodline and therefore are the chosen people.

Dispensationalists appear not to understand and/or accept what Paul says in Galatians 3: 16, "Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds,as of many,; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ."

Then Paul goes on in Galatians 3: 26-29 to say ""For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. "27. For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
28. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. 29. And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise."

The more literalist minded dispensationalists do not understand this, that Paul is saying that the promise to Abraham in Genesis 17 about the seed of Abraham being fruitful, as God said to him in Genesis 17: 2, "And I will make my covenant between me and thee, and will multiply thee exceedingly." In Verse 4 God says he will make Abraham a father of man nations, or of many peoples. The promise began with the physical seed of Abraham, but the ultimate promise was that Abraham's spiritual seed would be exceedingly large, or that many would become his spiritual seed through Christ Jesus. This is the way Abraham becomes the spiritual father of many peoples.

Paul does not say in an explicit way - as a high school textbook might be explicit in teaching - that in Christ the physical seed from Abraham became the spiritual seed from Abraham, which means that no one now is a member of the chosen people of God by virtue of his physical DNA from Abraham.

"Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine:
6. And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel." Exodus 19: 5-6

Peter quoted parts of Exodus 19: 5-6 in I Peter 2: 9, "But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:"

In I Peter 2: 9 the Christians became the chosen people - chosen generation - and a kingdom of priests, a holy nation of holy people a peculiar treasure.

In Hebrews 10: 9 it says "He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second." The Old Covenant was taken away so that Christ could establish the New Covenant. You cannot have the Old Covenant still being in place when the New Covenant has been established. "The glory of this latter house shall be greater that of the former, saith the Lord of hosts..." Haggai 2: 9

Interplanner
July 19th, 2015, 09:12 AM
Good thoughts, Northwye, they don't generally look at what the NT is saying about the OT at all. Some of them don't know that Acts 13 has a sermon. Most do not know or accept what it is saying. When you start shifting the promises to David over to Christ, and Isaiah validates that (Is 55 quoted in Acts 13) and saying that the promises are all completed, it really changes how you use the OT.

One suggestion for you: the Christ in you of Colossians is collective and objective. He means Messiah is now known among you Gentiles. He is not referring to the subjective Christ inside one individual believer. See for yourself, the Greek is plural. Paul is thrilled to know that the OT theme of the nations being reached and believing (Is 49:6) is coming true through him.

Jerry Shugart
July 19th, 2015, 10:36 AM
The Dispensationalist Focus Upon Old Covenant Israel

Why would people who claim to be Christians - the dispensationalists - make such an issue about Old Covenant Israel somehow remaining now as the chosen people of God?

The dispensationalists do not assert that old Covenant Israel is "now" the chosen people of God.

Why would people who claim to be Christians make false claims against dispensationalists?

Jerry Shugart
July 19th, 2015, 10:51 AM
Good thoughts, Northwye, they don't generally look at what the NT is saying about the OT at all.

Not only do Dispensationalists understand what the NT is saying about the OT but we actually believe what is being said. Here Paul speaks of the fact that "all Israel will be saved":


"And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins" (Ro.11:26-27).

Here Paul is referring to the following prophecy which speaks of ALL those of the house of Israel and those of the house of Judah having their sins forgiven:


"Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord: But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more" (Jer.31:31-34).

There has never been a time when "all" of those of the house of Israel and the house of Judah have had their sins forgiven.

The Dispensationalists believe that the LORD will honor His promise which He made to the houses of Israel and Judah so this prophecy will be fulfilled in the future.

The preterists have no place for the fulfillment of the LORD's promise in their eschatology so according to them the LORD makes promisres and then refuses to fulfill his promise.

it is beyond me how some of those who claim to be Christians can have a theology where the LORD makes promises and then refuses to honor those promises!

Interplanner
July 19th, 2015, 10:53 AM
JerryS,
he may not have said it but the understanding is that you may not think they are the people of God now due to 2P2P and that a time is coming when the Israel program goes back into effect.

the problem with this position is that it is dealing with whole groups at a time. The NT does not. It even says that is a defect of Judaism itself which voided and replaced the promised Gospel, Gal 3:17. The NT only deals with individuals who believe. The message is transcultural; you can believe no matter what class, culture or group you are in.

Interplanner
July 19th, 2015, 10:57 AM
Not only do Dispensationalists understand what the NT is saying about the OT but we actually believe what is being said. Here Paul speaks of the fact that "all Israel will be saved":


"And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins" (Ro.11:26-27).

Here Paul is referring to the following prophecy which speaks of ALL those of the house of Israel and those of the house of Judah having their sins forgiven:


"Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord: But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more" (Jer.31:31-34).

There has never been a time when "all" of those of the house of Israel and the house of Judah have had their sins forgiven.

The Dispensationalists believe that the LORD will honor His promise which He made to the houses of Israel and Judah so this prophecy will be fulfilled in the future.

The preterists have no place for the fulfillment of the LORD's promise in their eschatology so according to them the LORD makes promisres and then refuses to fulfill his promise.

it is beyond me how some of those who claim to be Christians can have a theology where the LORD makes promises and then refuses to honor those promises!


They are said to be fulfilled in Christ, Jerry. The "all" Israel he is referring to so successfully is the one that is in Christ.

Otherwise on Rom 11:
*all can't be all because it just got qualified by being future
*saved (per the quote from Isaiah) = justified from sins. it is not a prophesied restoration of the theocracy and all the worship accoutrements
*the new covenant is in effect now, in Christ, Mt 26, 2 Cor 3-5.

I don't find you familiar or accepting of these materials.

Granted, Judaism today may rebuild everything, but it just takes us all back to the eve of the arrival of Christ, and we start all over again trying to explain to them what "fulfilled" means.

Interplanner
July 19th, 2015, 10:58 AM
The word of God has not failed, Jerry. All the OT promises that the Gospel would go to the nations, and involving as many Jews as would be willing, has come true.

northwye
July 19th, 2015, 11:26 AM
The problem with saying that the Greek word umin, meaning you, second person plural, in Colossians 1: 27 refers only to the group and not to individuals in the group is that this is a logical impossibility, and - there are several other texts where Paul refers to Christ in you.

The second person plural of umin means Christ is in "you all," each individual of a group which has Christ in its individuals.

The Old English word Ye is second person plural, and might have been used for umin in Colossians 1: 27. Using Ye would indicate that Christ is in a group, but that group is made up only of the elect of God.

"And if Christ be in you (umin), the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness." Romans 8: 10

"My little children, of whom I travail in birth again until Christ be formed in you (umin)," Galatians 4: 19

"Let this mind be in you (umin), which was also in Christ Jesus:" Philippians 2: 5

And I Corinthians 3: 6 supports the teaching that Christ can be in you. "Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?"

The churches tend to avoid the teaching that Christ can be in you, and focus elsewhere on texts about salvation. "For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved" of Romans 10: 13 is liked more in the churches. Calling on the name of the Lord to be saved might seem more like something a person can do, while Christ being formed in you is something Christ decides to do.

And Christ in you fits in more with John 10: 10, " I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly." Christ brings spiritual life to you when he is in you, and in a time of the falling away from sound doctrine (II Thessalonians 2: 3-4) that spiritual life is vital.

Jerry Shugart
July 19th, 2015, 12:17 PM
JerryS,
he may not have said it but the understanding is that you may not think they are the people of God now due to 2P2P and that a time is coming when the Israel program goes back into effect.

the problem with this position is that it is dealing with whole groups at a time. The NT does not. It even says that is a defect of Judaism itself which voided and replaced the promised Gospel, Gal 3:17. The NT only deals with individuals who believe. The message is transcultural; you can believe no matter what class, culture or group you are in.

You cannot write in a clear matter and it is practically impossible to understand anything which you say.

I cannot understand your mumble jumble, much less respond to it!


The word of God has not failed, Jerry. All the OT promises that the Gospel would go to the nations, and involving as many Jews as would be willing, has come true.

no, all of the OT prophecies have not been fulfilled.

There has never been a time when ALL those of the house of Israel and the house of Judah have had their sins forgiven.

If you think that Jeremiah 31:31-34 has been fulfilled then you prove that you will believe anything, no matter how ridiculous.

Jerry Shugart
July 19th, 2015, 12:24 PM
The problem with saying that the Greek word umin, meaning you, second person plural, in Colossians 1: 27 refers only to the group and not to individuals in the group is that this is a logical impossibility, and - there are several other texts where Paul refers to Christ in you.

So? That does not rule out the idea that sometime in the future the Israelites will be a special people to the Lord, above all people who are on the face of the earth.

And this unfulfilled prophecy speaks of that time:


"And I will bring them, and they shall dwell in the midst of Jerusalem: and they shall be my people, and I will be their God, in truth and in righteousness...And it shall come to pass, that as ye were a curse among the heathen, O house of Judah, and house of Israel; so will I save you, and ye shall be a blessing...In those days it shall come to pass, that ten men shall take hold out of all languages of the nations, even shall take hold of the skirt of him that is a Jew, saying, We will go with you: for we have heard that God is with you" (Zech.8:8,13,23).

You preterists are so ignorant of the prophecies found in the OT that it is impossible to have an intelligent discussion with any of you.

Interplanner
July 19th, 2015, 12:33 PM
Jerry,
I guess you've missed a few days. 2P2P is the standard D'ist doctrine (Ryrie's book, most of DTS) that says the bible is about 2 peoples of God, 2 programs.
They never overlap, they never meet, they have two realms of bliss (heaven vs Israel on earth), ad nauseum. Two ways of being saved, two different things being saved means, ad nauseum.

Nothing like Eph 2B-3A.

The reason you can't understand me generally is you don't read the OT the way the NT reads it. It's that simple of a problem.

re the word of God not failing, I was proving it the way Paul did. The promises were never going to the whole nation. That's why the terms 'sperma' and 'sarkos' get used in Rom 9A. The promised seed of Abraham are people who believe in Christ, who, after all, is the Seed that was being referred to, Gal 3:16.

The 'sarkos' were born the ordinary way, and the promises don't go to them.

The main thing to do is read the one official sample apostle's sermon out on the mission field, Acts 13, preached in a synagogue to try to get Jews to join the true mission. All the things promised to the fathers are fulfilled in the resurrection. It is right in print. All the promises to David were shifted to Christ for this mission. That is validated by Is 55.

I don't take "Jerry's" interp of Jer 31 when there is so much comment on it in Hebrews and 2 Cor 3-5. No can do.

Danoh
July 19th, 2015, 01:08 PM
Jerry,
I guess you've missed a few days. 2P2P is the standard D'ist doctrine (Ryrie's book, most of DTS) that says the bible is about 2 peoples of God, 2 programs.
They never overlap, they never meet, they have two realms of bliss (heaven vs Israel on earth), ad nauseum. Two ways of being saved, two different things being saved means, ad nauseum.

I don't necessarily hold to the some of the above as to who, what, when, where, why, and how in the same way that Jerry does.

Still, it is obvious, Interplanner, that in your wisdom in your own conceit out of your willful ignorance of Dispensationalism, in general, you have ended up spreading lies and slander about it.

They do not overlap? The twain shall never meet? Two ways of being saved?

What; did you roll up some pages out of Stott and smoke them; their ink appears to have caused some serious brain damage there.

Zeke
July 19th, 2015, 08:15 PM
Good thoughts, Northwye, they don't generally look at what the NT is saying about the OT at all. Some of them don't know that Acts 13 has a sermon. Most do not know or accept what it is saying. When you start shifting the promises to David over to Christ, and Isaiah validates that (Is 55 quoted in Acts 13) and saying that the promises are all completed, it really changes how you use the OT.

One suggestion for you: the Christ in you of Colossians is collective and objective. He means Messiah is now known among you Gentiles. He is not referring to the subjective Christ inside one individual believer. See for yourself, the Greek is plural. Paul is thrilled to know that the OT theme of the nations being reached and believing (Is 49:6) is coming true through him.

Traditional programed assumption, the temple or cocoon of the spirit is the tabernacle of flesh Matt 11:11, Galatians 4:24, that incubates the second born represented by Jesus Galatians 4:26, which Paul mentions is the abode of the Divine Seed 1Cor 3:16, like the prodigals return home after being imprisoned in a tomb of flesh, same Motif as Jonah ect........

Interplanner
July 19th, 2015, 08:34 PM
I grew up in it, Danoh, through age 22. Nice try.

Jerry Shugart
July 19th, 2015, 08:36 PM
The promises were never going to the whole nation.

You are incapable of understanding what is written at Jeremiah31:31-34. You have a bad case of being willfully ignorant!

Do not both the house of Israel and the house of Judah make up the whole nation?

And did you not read verse 34 where it makes it plain that all of those from both houses will have their sins forgiven?

Of course that is what is said in that passage.

Despite that you will yourself to be ignorant and you say that "the promises were never going to the whole nation."

It is impossible to have an intelligent discussion with you about these things because your spiritual I.Q. is practically nonexistent.

Interplanner
July 19th, 2015, 08:54 PM
No, it is NT based. You refuse to see how the NT uses the OT. Please go see today's great example about the house of prayer. It's always good to have one clear, sharp-edged example. You'll never skip the NT period and go flinging off to the distant future again.

Jer 23-33 in particular is interp'd extensively in Hebrews and in 2 Cor 3-5. Your thoughts are considered way after all that is clear and solidified. That's why I'm not "intelligent."

Tambora
July 19th, 2015, 09:33 PM
Romans 11 KJV
(28) As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.

Jerry Shugart
July 20th, 2015, 12:00 PM
Your thoughts are considered way after all that is clear and solidified.

As usual what you say makes no sense at all.

Ben Masada
July 20th, 2015, 12:17 PM
How about the New Covenant, whom was it established with not with the Jews? Prophet Jeremiah says that the New Covenant was established with the House of Israel and the House of Judah. Not including Christians or Gentiles in general. Unless they express the desire to join, it must be according to Isa. 56:1-8. Why then enhance Old Covenant Israel when also the New Covenant is with Israel? Kind a hard to understand Christians.

whitestone
July 20th, 2015, 02:41 PM
How about the New Covenant, whom was it established with not with the Jews? Prophet Jeremiah says that the New Covenant was established with the House of Israel and the House of Judah. Not including Christians or Gentiles in general. Unless they express the desire to join, it must be according to Isa. 56:1-8. Why then enhance Old Covenant Israel when also the New Covenant is with Israel? Kind a hard to understand Christians.


At first it is very difficult to follow their eschatology,that is among these they all set the pieces in different orders of fulfillment. If though you still can calculate the grain offering and determine where to place an extra month,then you will still calculate it.

Mine own self I find drawn to the curiosity of their ambitions that is,mine own house is of Naarden though you may recognize it,it is as an riddle to them that naar is http://biblehub.com/hebrew/5288.htm and den http://biblehub.com/hebrew/1818.htm which is the house of Naarden https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naarden and that it is then an necessity for me to exact the things written of mine own house,,,

Jerry Shugart
July 20th, 2015, 03:03 PM
Prophet Jeremiah says that the New Covenant was established with the House of Israel and the House of Judah.

Where in the book of Jeremiah do we read that the New Covenant was established with the house of Israel and the house of Judah?

Interplanner
July 20th, 2015, 03:12 PM
Stop the personal barbs, Jerry. I'm quoting Paul though not verbatim. He said
"Whatever God promised to the fathers, he has fulfilled by resurrecting Christ from the dead." Acts 13:36.

You see, you have a MO that you are not aware of. It is to quote the OT directly but not consult the NT for interpretation.

In my view of things, Christocentricity, not Israelcentricity, is spiritual and mature.

Interplanner
July 20th, 2015, 03:15 PM
The new covenant in Christ's blood was for the sins of all mankind who would believe. Mt 27.

john w
July 20th, 2015, 03:25 PM
The LORD God will fulfill all the covenants He made with the nation of Israel, not for their sake, but to demonstrate to mankind, that He is trustworthy, He keeps His promises, He does not lie, He is faithful..............and we are not. The end game? For His glory, His namesake.

“But I had pity for mine holy name, which the house of Israel had profaned among the heathen, whither they went. Therefore say unto the house of Israel, thus saith the Lord GOD; I do not this for your sakes, O house of Israel, but for mine holy name's sake, which ye have profaned among the heathen, whither ye went. And I will sanctify my great name, which was profaned among the heathen, which ye have profaned in the midst of them; and the heathen shall know that I am the LORD, saith the Lord GOD, when I shall be sanctified in you before their eyes. For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land. Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you. A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them. And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be my people, and I will be your God.

I will also save you from all your uncleannesses: and I will call for the corn, and will increase it, and lay no famine upon you. And I will multiply the fruit of the tree, and the increase of the field, that ye shall receive no more reproach of famine among the heathen. Then shall ye remember your own evil ways, and your doings that were not good, and shall lothe yourselves in your own sight for your iniquities and for your abominations. Not for your sakes do I this, saith the Lord GOD, be it known unto you: be ashamed and confounded for your own ways, O house of Israel. Thus saith the Lord GOD; In the day that I shall have cleansed you from all your iniquities I will also cause you to dwell in the cities, and the wastes shall be builded. And the desolate land shall be tilled, whereas it lay desolate in the sight of all that passed by.” Ez. 36:21-34 KJV

Read it:

Not for your sakes do I this, saith the Lord GOD,

“And say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the children of Israel from among the heathen, whither they be gone, and will gather them on every side, and bring them into their own land:And I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king to them all: and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all.” Ez. 37:21-22 KJV


“Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Now will I bring again the captivity of Jacob, and have mercy upon the whole house of Israel, and will be jealous for my holy name; After that they have borne their shame, and all their trespasses whereby they have trespassed against me, when they dwelt safely in their land, and none made them afraid. When I have brought them again from the people, and gathered them out of their enemies' lands, and am sanctified in them in the sight of many nations; Then shall they know that I am the LORD their God, which caused them to be led into captivity among the heathen: but I have gathered them unto their own land, and have left none of them any more there. Neither will I hide my face any more from them: for I have poured out my spirit upon the house of Israel, saith the Lord GOD.” Ez. 39:25-29 KJV

“And the word of the LORD came unto Jeremiah, saying, Thus saith the LORD; If ye can break my covenant of the day, and my covenant of the night, and that there should not be day and night in their season; Then may also my covenant be broken with David my servant, that he should not have a son to reign upon his throne; and with the Levites the priests, my ministers……Thus saith the LORD; If my covenant be not with day and night, and if I have not appointed the ordinances of heaven and earth; Then will I cast away the seed of Jacob and David my servant, so that I will not take any of his seed to be rulers over the seed of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob: for I will cause their captivity to return, and have mercy on them.” Jer. 33:19-21 KJV, 25-26 KJV


“Remember me, O LORD, with the favour that thou bearest unto thy people: O visit me with thy salvation; That I may see the good of thy chosen, that I may rejoice in the gladness of thy nation, that I may glory with thine inheritance. .. And he remembered for them his covenant, and repented according to the multitude of his mercies. He made them also to be pitied of all those that carried them captives. Save us, O LORD our God, and gather us from among the heathen, to give thanks unto thy holy name, and to triumph in thy praise. Blessed be the LORD God of Israel from everlasting to everlasting: and let all the people say, Amen. Praise ye the LORD.” Psalms 106:4,5 KJV, 45-48 KJV


Read it:"that I may glory....thy holy name.."

“Hearken unto me, my people; and give ear unto me, O my nation: for a law shall proceed from me, and I will make my judgment to rest for a light of the people.” Is. 51:4 KJV

“And I will make her that halted a remnant, and her that was cast far off a strong nation: and the LORD shall reign over them in mount Zion from henceforth, even for ever.” Micah 4:7 KJV

“Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.” Mt. 21:43 KJV


“Fear not, little flock; for it is your Father's good pleasure to give you the kingdom.” Luke 12:32

whitestone
July 20th, 2015, 03:34 PM
we should keep an eschatology scorecard,,

The Jew believes Jesus was not the Messiah and that the real Messiah is still to come,which means he is the next event to happen,when the man of sin comes they will receive him who comes in his own name and fulfill the scripture...

The preterits reason that all has been fulfilled and that the man of sin has already came so when the remainder of event's unfold they will be the end when Jesus comes and hence will acknowledge him as God and Christ,whether he is the false Messiah the Jew awaits or not...

Then there are the dispy,pre-mills and the next event in their eschatology is the return of an Israel whether it be an image or not is another subject,but at least they do see unfinished words spoken to Jacob...

Jerry Shugart
July 20th, 2015, 03:35 PM
Stop the personal barbs, Jerry. I'm quoting Paul though not verbatim. He said
"Whatever God promised to the fathers, he has fulfilled by resurrecting Christ from the dead." Acts 13:36.

Then how do you explain that the Apostle Paul spoke of a salvation of all of Israel many years after the resurrection of the Lord Jesus?:


"And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins" (Ro.11:26-27).

Here Paul is referring to the following prophecy which speaks of ALL those of the house of Israel and those of the house of Judah having their sins forgiven:


"Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord: But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more" (Jer.31:31-34).

There has never been a time when "all" of those of the house of Israel and the house of Judah have had their sins forgiven.

The Dispensationalists believe that the LORD will honor His promise which He made to the houses of Israel and Judah so this prophecy will be fulfilled in the future.

The preterists have no place for the fulfillment of the LORD's promise in their eschatology so according to them the LORD makes promisres and then refuses to fulfill his promise.

it is beyond me how some of those who claim to be Christians can have a theology where the LORD makes promises and then refuses to honor those promises!

HisServant
July 20th, 2015, 03:42 PM
Then how do you explain that the Apostle Paul spoke of a salvation of all of Israel many years after the resurrection of the Lord Jesus?:


"And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins" (Ro.11:26-27).

Here Paul is referring to the following prophecy which speaks of ALL those of the house of Israel and those of the house of Judah having their sins forgiven:


"Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord: But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more" (Jer.31:31-34).

There has never been a time when "all" of those of the house of Israel and the house of Judah have had their sins forgiven.

The Dispensationalists believe that the LORD will honor His promise which He made to the houses of Israel and Judah so this prophecy will be fulfilled in the future.

The preterists have no place for the fulfillment of the LORD's promise in their eschatology so according to them the LORD makes promisres and then refuses to fulfill his promise.

it is beyond me how some of those who claim to be Christians can have a theology where the LORD makes promises and then refuses to honor those promises!

You remind me of the Jews who were blind to the fact that Jesus was their Messiah and he fulfilled all the prophesies about himself.

Much in the same way, you are using the same measuring stick that they did... and you are blinded in much the same way.

To the Jews they still believe that God owes them something that they are blind to the fact that Jesus fulfilled.

From your world view it appears that you do not believe that God fulfilled all the promises in Jesus so you need to look somewhere else and in your case into the future for your answers.

In the end, you two deserve each other because you are both blinded and no amount of reasoning will change your view... because you have enslaved yourself to the teachings of mad men.

In the end, you have jumped in bed with the Jews and are complicit with the murder of so many innocents... all in the name of trying to self fulfill your eschatology.

northwye
July 20th, 2015, 06:12 PM
"Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?" Romans 9: 21

The potter having power over the clay refers to Jeremiah 18: 1-6 and especially to Jeremiah 18: 4-6, "And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it. 5. Then the word of the LORD came to me, saying, 6. O house of Israel, cannot I do with you as this potter? saith the LORD. Behold, as the clay is in the potter's hand, so are ye in mine hand, O house of Israel."

The vessel that was marred in the hand of the potter is the vessel of dishonor, while the vessel, the pot, the potter made again out of the same lump which seemed good to the potter is the vessel of honor of Romans 9: 21.

The vessel of dishonor of Romans 9: 21 is the part of Old Covenant Israel in Romans 9: 6, of the bloodline from Abraham, which was now not Israel. This is a difficult way of saying what Paul says in Romans 11: 5, that there is a remnant according to the election of grace. A remnant of Old Covenant Israel was elected by grace to continue as Israel, but as Israel born again (John 3: 1-7) in Jesus Christ. And in Romans 11: 7 Paul writes "What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded."

Israel in Romans 11: 7 is Old Covenant Israel. Paul is not saying in Romans 11: 7 what that remnant of Old Covenant Israel which obtained election is called. He gives that Israel a name in Galatians 6: 16, the Israel of God, different from Israel after the flesh (I Corinthians 10: 18).

The Israel of God, the elect, the Body of Christ, is Old Covenant Israel remade as shown in Romans 9:
21 and Jeremiah 18: 1-6, the parable of the potter. The remaking of Old Covenant Israel is commented on in II Kings 21: 13, "And I will stretch over Jerusalem the line of Samaria, and the plummet of the house of Ahab: and I will wipe Jerusalem as a man wipeth a dish, wiping it, and turning it upside down." And also in Isaiah 29: 16 the remaking of Old Covenant Israel is commented on in saying "Surely your turning of things upside down shall be esteemed as the potter's clay: for shall the work say of him that made it, He made me not? or shall the thing framed say of him that framed it, He had no understanding?"

This is all a little subtle. But it is saying that Old Covenant Israel was remade, and Israel, the people of God, was begun again in the remnant of Old Covenant Israel of Romans 11; 5. There are two covenants, but they do not exist side by side. "Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second." Hebrews 10: 9

An important part of the falling away from sound doctrine (II Thessalonians 2: 3-4) involves a refusal to accept and understand the remaking of Old Covenant Israel into the Israel of God, the Body of Christ.

SaulToPaul
July 21st, 2015, 09:27 AM
Read it:

You're not talking to a jerk, you know.

john w
July 21st, 2015, 10:46 AM
You're not talking to a jerk, you know.

I am pleased, fella, that you're back, not molly coddling, anymore. Did you go to that big city, near you, grab yourself a corner room, at the "Y," cook a little chili, and have a few shots of "hard cider," while takin' a picture, at the picture show, for the weekend?

Jacob
July 21st, 2015, 11:23 AM
Is dispensationalism a way of understanding Biblical prophecy or eschatology assumed to be about events following even what many identify as the destruction of Israel and the temple in Jerusalem about 70 AD?

Has all been fulfilled in Jesus and yet we look forward to His return?

Is Israel spoken of in Biblical prophecy beyond say the 70 AD time period?

Jerry Shugart
July 21st, 2015, 12:45 PM
Not only do Dispensationalists understand what the NT is saying about the OT but we actually believe what is being said. Here Paul speaks of the fact that "all Israel will be saved":


"And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins" (Ro.11:26-27).

Here Paul is referring to the following prophecy which speaks of ALL those of the house of Israel and those of the house of Judah having their sins forgiven:


"Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord: But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more" (Jer.31:31-34).

There has never been a time when "all" of those of the house of Israel and the house of Judah have had their sins forgiven.

The Dispensationalists believe that the LORD will honor His promise which He made to the houses of Israel and Judah so this prophecy will be fulfilled in the future.

The preterists have no place for the fulfillment of the LORD's promise in their eschatology so according to them the LORD makes promisres and then refuses to fulfill his promise.

it is beyond me how some of those who claim to be Christians can have a theology where the LORD makes promises and then refuses to honor those promises!

Jacob
July 21st, 2015, 12:49 PM
Not only do Dispensationalists understand what the NT is saying about the OT but we actually believe what is being said. Here Paul speaks of the fact that "all Israel will be saved":


"And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins" (Ro.11:26-27).

Here Paul is referring to the following prophecy which speaks of ALL those of the house of Israel and those of the house of Judah having their sins forgiven:


"Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord: But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more" (Jer.31:31-34).

There has never been a time when "all" of those of the house of Israel and the house of Judah have had their sins forgiven.

The Dispensationalists believe that the LORD will honor His promise which He made to the houses of Israel and Judah so this prophecy will be fulfilled in the future.

The preterists have no place for the fulfillment of the LORD's promise in their eschatology so according to them the LORD makes promisres and then refuses to fulfill his promise.

it is beyond me how some of those who claim to be Christians can have a theology where the LORD makes promises and then refuses to honor those promises!Why not say the new covenant came about 2000 years ago?

Jerry Shugart
July 21st, 2015, 12:57 PM
Why not say the new covenant came about 2000 years ago?

Isn't it obvious that the promise made to the house of Israel and to the house of Israel at Jeremiah 31:34 has not yet been fulfilled?

Of course you just IGNORED those facts.

Jacob
July 21st, 2015, 12:58 PM
Isn't it obvious that the promise made to the house of Israel and to the house of Israel has not yet been fulfilled?

Of course you just IGNORED those facts.No, I believe either it came or it did not. And I believe it came.

Jerry Shugart
July 21st, 2015, 01:01 PM
No, I believe either it came or it did not. And I believe it came.

So you believe that at one time all those in the house of Israel and in the house of Jadah had their sins forgiven.

When do you say that happened?

Jacob
July 21st, 2015, 01:03 PM
So you believe that at one time all those in the house of Israel and in the house of Jadah had their sins forgiven.

When do you say that happened?Sins were forgiven by (in accordance with) the new covenant pertaining to the life, death, burial, resurrection, and ascension of our Lord Jesus, and the coming of the Holy Spirit.

Titus 3:5 NASB.

Acts 3:19 NASB - 19 "Therefore repent and return, so that your sins may be wiped away, in order that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord;

northwye
July 21st, 2015, 02:49 PM
To be consistent with what Paul says in Romans 2: 28-29, in Romans 9: 6-8, Romans 11: 5, 7, 17-20, in Galatians 3: 3, 16, 26-29 and Galatians 4: 22-26 all Israel shall be saved in Romans 11: 26 is all who are the elect of God, since only all the elect of God could be said to be saved. For all Old Covenant Israel as a house to be saved in the future, again would contradict what Paul says in Romans 11: 7, 17-20. Romans 11: 25 in saying blindness has happened to a part of Old Covenant Israel Paul is saying the same thing he said in Romans 11: 7, that those of Old Covenant Israel who were not the remnant were blinded.

"And this Gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all world for a witness unto all nations (ethnos) and then shall the end come." Matthew 24; 14

In Romans 11: 25 it says hardness in part has happened to Israel until (achris) the fullness of the ethnos (nations, peoples, Gentiles) be come in. When the fullness of the ethnos (people, nations Gentiles) be come in, is reached, that is the end. Why translate ethnos here as Gentiles instead of nations or peoples?

Romans 11: 25-26 is difficult to interpret. But if you interpret it by other relevant scripture, instead of by a tradition of men, it is not saying that sometime in the future all Old Covenant Israel will be saved as a house, but that all who are the elect of God will be saved, and all who are the elect of God are Israel, but not Old Covenant Israel, according to the texts of Paul listed above.

Jacob
July 21st, 2015, 02:59 PM
To be consistent with what Paul says in Romans 2: 28-29, in Romans 9: 6-8, Romans 11: 5, 7, 17-20, in Galatians 3: 3, 16, 26-29 and Galatians 4: 22-26 all Israel shall be saved in Romans 11: 26 is all who are the elect of God, since only all the elect of God could be said to be saved. For all Old Covenant Israel as a house to be saved in the future, again would contradict what Paul says in Romans 11: 7, 17-20. Romans 11: 25 in saying blindness has happened to a part of Old Covenant Israel Paul is saying the same thing he said in Romans 11: 7, that those of Old Covenant Israel who were not the remnant were blinded.

"And this Gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all world for a witness unto all nations (ethnos) and then shall the end come." Matthew 24; 14

In Romans 11: 25 it says hardness in part has happened to Israel until (achris) the fullness of the ethnos (nations, peoples, Gentiles) be come in. When the fullness of the ethnos (people, nations Gentiles) be come in, is reached, that is the end. Why translate ethnos here as Gentiles instead of nations or peoples?

Romans 11: 25-26 is difficult to interpret. But if you interpret it by other relevant scripture, instead of by a tradition of men, it is not saying that sometime in the future all Old Covenant Israel will be saved as a house, but that all who are the elect of God will be saved, and all who are the elect of God are Israel, but not Old Covenant Israel, according to the texts of Paul listed above.Israel in the Old Covenant was the same nation as Israel is now (time of Christ but there is Israel in the land now), even as the new covenant came 2000 years ago. If not, what changed or what has changed? Israel was in the land during the time of Christ. Israel was still in the land after the new covenant in Jesus had come, even as Jesus appeared to many following His resurrection, and ascended to the right hand of God after which we see the Spirit of God poured out on Jews and later on Gentiles as well.

Interplanner
July 21st, 2015, 03:28 PM
Unt,
There is pretty good evidence that almost no one today in israel knows their tribal descendency. There are also only about 8% evangelicals. About the same % are orthodox but the majority are agnostic or NYC liberals.

It is entirely possible that the orthodox will resurrect Judaism enough to practice the whole worship system again, which would bring us back to the eve of the New Testament period, right?

So I don't see very much the same. Northwye is quite right that 11:26's "all" can't be the ethnos; it is the "Israel" (or remnant, or elect, or Abraham' seed) Paul has been referring to since ch 2, again in ch 9. In 11, granted, there are several contrasts between ethnos Israel and the nations, but anytime you limit a group that's moving through history and say at one future moment that "all" of it will be saved, you have actually qualified that "all" quite a bit.

Then, look carefully at how Isiaiah is quoted. It is all current. Those things are fulfilled for Paul: the Redeemer came, the sin as debt is taken away, the new covenant is operating. 11:30 solidifies with God only doing things through and upon Christ, whether in mercy or wrath. The same standard for all manking.

Jacob
July 21st, 2015, 03:39 PM
Unt,
There is pretty good evidence that almost no one today in israel knows their tribal descendency. There are also only about 8% evangelicals. About the same % are orthodox but the majority are agnostic or NYC liberals.

It is entirely possible that the orthodox will resurrect Judaism enough to practice the whole worship system again, which would bring us back to the eve of the New Testament period, right?

So I don't see very much the same. Northwye is quite right that 11:26's "all" can't be the ethnos; it is the "Israel" (or remnant, or elect, or Abraham' seed) Paul has been referring to since ch 2, again in ch 9. In 11, granted, there are several contrasts between ethnos Israel and the nations, but anytime you limit a group that's moving through history and say at one future moment that "all" of it will be saved, you have actually qualified that "all" quite a bit.

Then, look carefully at how Isiaiah is quoted. It is all current. Those things are fulfilled for Paul: the Redeemer came, the sin as debt is taken away, the new covenant is operating. 11:30 solidifies with God only doing things through and upon Christ, whether in mercy or wrath. The same standard for all manking.Jesus died for your sins, whether you were born an Israelite or not. That all Israel will be saved is speaking of Israel yes, God's people. Does this take into account that we don't know all who will be saved? I believe yes. Well, obviously some from Israel now can be said to have come to Christ. I don't know how to speak about it though, whether this is correct to interpret it as true prophecy from the following. There are different views on the phrase, "(and so) all Israel will be saved".

Romans 11:23-27 NASB - 23 And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. 24 For if you were cut off from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these who are the natural branches be grafted into their own olive tree? 25 For I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this mystery--so that you will not be wise in your own estimation--that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in; 26 and so all Israel will be saved; just as it is written, "THE DELIVERER WILL COME FROM ZION, HE WILL REMOVE UNGODLINESS FROM JACOB." 27 "THIS IS MY COVENANT WITH THEM, WHEN I TAKE AWAY THEIR SINS."

I don't know whether or not it is right to say we who have believed are now of Israel.

Ephesians 2:12 NASB - 12 remember that you were at that time separate from Christ, excluded from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world.

Interplanner
July 21st, 2015, 04:13 PM
It will help to keep dwelling on Eph 2B-3A. All the things that formerly excluded from Israel are accessible in the Gospel. It's not about land or geogrpahy or temple worship services. It is all fulfilled in Christ.

One other helpful clue on 11:26. "And so..." is more correctly "In this manner..." (this partially hardened manner). The ethnos will always be that way (and always has been). But the other Israel he has been referring to will be saved.

In this setting, since the middle of 10 or really for the whole letter, "saved" means to be justified from your sins. They (ie the debt of them) is taken away, to use Isaiah's language for the same. There is nothing about the restored land or place or worship system, etc.

Jacob
July 21st, 2015, 04:16 PM
It will help to keep dwelling on Eph 2B-3A. All the things that formerly excluded from Israel are accessible in the Gospel. It's not about land or geogrpahy or temple worship services. It is all fulfilled in Christ.

One other helpful clue on 11:26. "And so..." is more correctly "In this manner..." (this partially hardened manner). The ethnos will always be that way (and always has been). But the other Israel he has been referring to will be saved.

In this setting, since the middle of 10 or really for the whole letter, "saved" means to be justified from your sins. They (ie the debt of them) is taken away, to use Isaiah's language for the same. There is nothing about the restored land or place or worship system, etc.You are asking the question of what is Israel. Well, who is Israel Biblically? Those who descended from Israel or lived in the land of Israel. Then these are the people of God.

Romans 11:12 NASB, Romans 11:23 NASB - 12 Now if their transgression is riches for the world and their failure is riches for the Gentiles, how much more will their fulfillment be! ... 23 And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.

Jerry Shugart
July 21st, 2015, 04:46 PM
Romans 11: 25-26 is difficult to interpret. But if you interpret it by other relevant scripture, instead of by a tradition of men, it is not saying that sometime in the future all Old Covenant Israel will be saved as a house, but that all who are the elect of God will be saved, and all who are the elect of God are Israel, but not Old Covenant Israel, according to the texts of Paul listed above.

First of all, it is evident that at Romans 11:26 is referring to the prophecy found at jeremiah 31:31-34. And no one is saying that in the future that all of the Israelites down through time will be saved.

Instead, the promise is only in regard to all those of Israel (all of the physical seed of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob) who will be alive when the following promise will be fulfilled:


"Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord: But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more" (Jer.31:31-34).

There has never been a time when all of the physical descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob out of the houses of Israel and Jacob had received a forgiveness of sins.

The preterists have no place in their eschatology for the fulfillment of the promise made by the LORD that at some point in time all of the physical descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob will have their sins forgiven.

So according to the ideas of the preteists the LORD will make promises and then refuse to fulfill those promises!

Therefore, the teaching of the preterists cannot possibly be correct.

Jerry Shugart
July 21st, 2015, 04:50 PM
There is pretty good evidence that almost no one today in israel knows their tribal descendency. There are also only about 8% evangelicals. About the same % are orthodox but the majority are agnostic or NYC liberals.

The LORD will know. Or are you saying that the LORD will be completely ignorant as to whom qualifies as being an Israelite and who does not?

Jerry Shugart
July 21st, 2015, 04:55 PM
Sins were forgiven by (in accordance with) the new covenant pertaining to the life, death, burial, resurrection, and ascension of our Lord Jesus, and the coming of the Holy Spirit.

Acts 3:19 NASB - 19 "Therefore repent and return, so that your sins may be wiped away, in order that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord;

Yes, if the nation of Israel would have repented at Acts and returned to the LORD then she would have began to receive the benefits of the New Covenant.

But she did not repent and she did not receive the benefits of the New Covenant.

Jacob
July 21st, 2015, 04:57 PM
Yes, if the nation of Israel would have repented at Acts and returned to the LORD then she would have began to receive the benefits of the New Covenant.

But she did not repent and she did not receive the benefits of the New Covenant.How else would the Gentiles have received the benefits of the new covenant, apart from Israel seeing the coming of the new covenant in the person of Jesus Christ God's Son?

northwye
July 21st, 2015, 06:13 PM
The Greek word ethnos is found in Matthew 24: 14 and in Romans 11: 25, as well as in many other New Testament texts. Strong's defines ethnos, number 1484, as "A race, i. e. a tribe, specifically a foreign non-Jewish one,pagan, Gentile, heathen, nation people."

In the New Testament King James Version ethnos is translated most of the time as either Gentiles or nation (nations). Its translated as heathen in Acts 4: 25 and as peoples in Acts 8: 9 and in Romans 10: 19.

Ethnos could have been translated as nations or peoples in Romans 11: 25.

Young's Literal Translation ( 1898)
—" For I do not wish you to be ignorant, brethren, of this secret—that ye may not be wise in your own conceits—that hardness in part to Israel hath happened till the fulness of the nations may come in;"

Use of nations for ethnos instead of Gentiles makes it easier to see that Romans 11: 25 is talking about the same thing as in Matthew 24: 14, "And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come."

The issue of who the Israel is in Romans 11: 26 is not about translation of ethnos, but about Romans 9: 6, "For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel" and also Romans 2: 28-29, and some other texts of Paul in Romans, I Corinthians and Galatians. In Romans 9: 6 Paul is saying that not all of Old Covenant Israel was brought into Israel when Christ remade it. He explains in Romans 11: 25 that a remnant was elected by grace,and in that text of Romans 11: 1-5 he starts by saying that not all of God's people were cast away and mentions a remnant in the time of Elijah. A remnant of Old Covenant Israel was brought into the New Covenant to begin again God's plan of redemption in Christ. It is this Israel remade in Christ that is the all Israel which shall be saved in Romans 11: 26, not all Old Covenant Israel as a house.

Paul is not using hyperbole in a rhetorical and exaggerated way in saying all Israel shall be saved when he means that some of Old Covenant Israel will be saved. The only other way all Israel can be saved is for all Israel to be only the elect of God, which that Israel is.

Jacob
July 21st, 2015, 06:15 PM
The ethnos are found in Matthew 24: 14 and in Romans 11: 25, as well as in many other New Testament texts. Strong's defines ethnos, number 1484, as "A race, i. e. a tribe, specifically a foreign non-Jewish one,pagan, Gentile, heathen, nation people."

In the New Testament King James Version ethnos is translated most of the time as either Gentiles or nation (nations). Its translated as heathen on Acts 4: 25 and as peoples in Acts 8: 9 and in Romans 10: 19.

Ethnos could have been translated as nations or peoples in Romans 11: 25.

Young's Literal Translation ( 1898)
—" For I do not wish you to be ignorant, brethren, of this secret—that ye may not be wise in your own conceits—that hardness in part to Israel hath happened till the fulness of the nations may come in;"

Use of nations for ethnos instead of Gentiles makes it easier to see that Romans 11: 25 is talking about the same thing as in Matthew 24: 14, "And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come."

The issue of who the Israel is in Romans 11: 26 is not about translation of ethnos, but about Romans 9: 6, "For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel" and also Romans 2: 28-29, and some other texts of Paul in Romans I Corinthians and Galatians. In Romans 9: 6 Paul is saying that not all of Old Covenant Israel was brought into Israel when Christ remade it. He explains in Romans 11: 25 that a remnant was elected by grace, meaning in that text where he starts by saying that not all of God's were cast away and mentions a remnant in the time of Elijah. That is, a remnant of Old Covenant Israel was brought in to the New Covenant to begin again God's plan of redemption in Christ. It is this Israel remade in Christ that is the all Israel shall be saved of Romans 11: 26, not all Old Covenant Israel as a house.

Paul is not using hyperbole in a rhetorical and exaggerated way in saying all Israel shall be saved when he means that some of Old Covenant Israel will be saved. The only other way all Israel can be saved is for all Israel to be only the elect of God, which that Israel is.Jesus did not remake Israel. That is your wrong view.

Totton Linnet
July 21st, 2015, 07:27 PM
If God cheats on the Jews then how can we be sure He will not cheat on us?

God will keep His promises to Israel and He will keep His promises to the church.

Totton Linnet
July 21st, 2015, 07:28 PM
It is unthinkable that God would not keep His promise.

Jacob
July 21st, 2015, 09:25 PM
If God cheats on the Jews then how can we be sure He will not cheat on us?

God will keep His promises to Israel and He will keep His promises to the church.When you say Israel and the church, there was a church in the wilderness... but aside from that Israel came first and they still exist. Those in the church may be from or a part of Israel.

Danoh
July 22nd, 2015, 06:45 AM
The Greek word ethnos is found in Matthew 24: 14 and in Romans 11: 25, as well as in many other New Testament texts. Strong's defines ethnos, number 1484, as "A race, i. e. a tribe, specifically a foreign non-Jewish one,pagan, Gentile, heathen, nation people."

In the New Testament King James Version ethnos is translated most of the time as either Gentiles or nation (nations). Its translated as heathen in Acts 4: 25 and as peoples in Acts 8: 9 and in Romans 10: 19.

Ethnos could have been translated as nations or peoples in Romans 11: 25.

Young's Literal Translation ( 1898)
—" For I do not wish you to be ignorant, brethren, of this secret—that ye may not be wise in your own conceits—that hardness in part to Israel hath happened till the fulness of the nations may come in;"

Use of nations for ethnos instead of Gentiles makes it easier to see that Romans 11: 25 is talking about the same thing as in Matthew 24: 14, "And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come."

The issue of who the Israel is in Romans 11: 26 is not about translation of ethnos, but about Romans 9: 6, "For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel" and also Romans 2: 28-29, and some other texts of Paul in Romans, I Corinthians and Galatians. In Romans 9: 6 Paul is saying that not all of Old Covenant Israel was brought into Israel when Christ remade it. He explains in Romans 11: 25 that a remnant was elected by grace,and in that text of Romans 11: 1-5 he starts by saying that not all of God's people were cast away and mentions a remnant in the time of Elijah. A remnant of Old Covenant Israel was brought into the New Covenant to begin again God's plan of redemption in Christ. It is this Israel remade in Christ that is the all Israel which shall be saved in Romans 11: 26, not all Old Covenant Israel as a house.

Paul is not using hyperbole in a rhetorical and exaggerated way in saying all Israel shall be saved when he means that some of Old Covenant Israel will be saved. The only other way all Israel can be saved is for all Israel to be only the elect of God, which that Israel is.

Interesting "twist" you propose there - retranslate a word, not so that it fits the narrative it was meant to, rather; that it fit the one you want it to fit.

Thanks for the "one size fits all" glimpse into the very means by which "one size fits all" as a "theology" came into being.

Ben Masada
July 22nd, 2015, 06:56 AM
If God cheats on the Jews then how can we be sure He will not cheat on us?

God will keep His promises to Israel and He will keep His promises to the church.

Do you really want to know how? Read Jer. 46:28. Of the other nations, God will eventually get rid of them but of Israel, He will only chastise us as we deserve. and that's how. That's not God cheating but teaching that universal salvation comes from the Jews. (John 4:22)

northwye
July 22nd, 2015, 07:08 AM
According to the tradition of men, dispensationalism, Israel in scripture means only Old Covenant Israel, and cannot mean an Israel other than Old Covenant Israel. But this contradicts several texts of Paul. The most explicit texts dispensationmalism disagrees with are Romans 2: 28-29 and Romans 9: 6-8. Galatians 3: 3, 16, 26-29 say that the seed of Abraham is Christ alone and that all are the children or seed of God by faith in Jesus Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek in Christ, all are one, and if you are Christ's seed, then you are the seed of Abraham and heirs of the promise. The physical bloodline from Abraham defining who is part of Old Covenant Israel, was changed.

The two covenants do not exist side by side. The New Covenant replaced the Old Covenant. "He taken away the first, that he may establish the second." Hebrews 10: 9

The Bible does not say in a very explicit way that Christ changed Old Covenant Israel and created an Israel - always Israel is the people of God - reborn in Christ. This gives the dispensationalists their "loophole" to insert their doctrine that Old Covenant Israel still exists as the chosen of God alongside the dispensationalist Church, translated from ekklesia.

Lewis S. Chafer said that dispensationalism has
"...changed the Bible from being a mass of more or less conflicting
writings into a classified and easily assimilated revelation of both
the earthly and heavenly purposes of God, which reach on into eternity
to come.." Lewis. S. Chafer, Dispensationalism, Bibliotheca Sacra, 93 (October 1936), 410, 416, 446-447

Lewis S. Chafer was one of the main classical dispensationalists, following John Darby and C.I Scofield. He founded the Dallas Theological Seminary. Here Chafer admits that the tradition of men called dispensationalism has "changed the Bible.

Chafer admits that dispensationalists themselves made changes in the Bible. They did not change the text, at least not until they took over so many denominations, but they changed the interpretations of some fundamental strands of the Gospel. So, dispensationalist interpretation of the Gospel of Christ is man leaning to his own understanding, contrary to Proverbs 3: 5 - "lean not unto thine own understanding."

Ben Masada
July 22nd, 2015, 07:14 AM
According to the tradition of men, dispensationalism, Israel in scripture means only Old Covenant Israel, and cannot mean an Israel other than Old Covenant Israel. But this contradicts several texts of Paul. The most explicit texts dispensationmalism disagrees with are Romans 2: 28-29 and Romans 9: 6-8. Galatians 3: 3, 16, 26-29 say that the seed of Abraham is Christ alone and that all are the children or seed of God by faith in Jesus Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek in Christ, all are one, and if you are Christ's seed, then you are the seed of Abraham and heirs of the promise. The physical bloodline from Abraham defining who is part of Old Covenant Israel, was changed.

The two covenants do not exist side by side. The New Covenant replaced the Old Covenant. "He taken away the first, that he may establish the second." Hebrews 10: 9

The Bible does not say in a very explicit way that Christ changed Old Covenant Israel and created an Israel - always Israel is the people of God - reborn in Christ. This gives the dispensationalists their "loophole" to insert their doctrine that Old Covenant Israel still exists as the chosen of God alongside the dispensationalist Church, translated from ekklesia.

Lewis S. Chafer said that dispensationalism has
"...changed the Bible from being a mass of more or less conflicting
writings into a classified and easily assimilated revelation of both
the earthly and heavenly purposes of God, which reach on into eternity
to come.." Lewis. S. Chafer, Dispensationalism, Bibliotheca Sacra, 93 (October 1936), 410, 416, 446-447

Lewis S. Chafer was one of the main classical dispensationalists, following John Darby and C.I Scofield. He founded the Dallas Theological Seminary. Here Chafer admits that the tradition of men called dispensationalism has "changed the Bible.

Chafer admits that dispensationalists themselves made changes in the Bible. They did not change the text, at least not until they took over so many denominations, but they changed the interpretations of some fundamental strands of the Gospel. So, dispensationalist interpretation of the Gospel of Christ is man leaning to his own understanding, contrary to Proverbs 3: 5 - "lean not unto thine own understanding."

You say above that the New Covenant replaces the Old Covenant. How is that if the New Covenant was also established with the House of Israel and the House of Judah? (Jer. 31:32)

HisServant
July 22nd, 2015, 07:24 AM
It is unthinkable that God would not keep His promise.

You are saying the same things the Jews said that had Christ killed.

Just because he doesnt fulfill them the way that you personally want does not make them unfulfilled.

According to Jesus and the Apostles, they have ALL been fulfilled... if you want to be honest and actually believe them, then you have to approach interpreting things within that framework.

The Jews were expecting a King to sit on the physical throne of David and rule them... but we all know that to be false.

Danoh
July 22nd, 2015, 07:53 AM
According to the tradition of men, dispensationalism, Israel in scripture means only Old Covenant Israel, and cannot mean an Israel other than Old Covenant Israel. But this contradicts several texts of Paul. The most explicit texts dispensationmalism disagrees with are Romans 2: 28-29 and Romans 9: 6-8. Galatians 3: 3, 16, 26-29 say that the seed of Abraham is Christ alone and that all are the children or seed of God by faith in Jesus Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek in Christ, all are one, and if you are Christ's seed, then you are the seed of Abraham and heirs of the promise. The physical bloodline from Abraham defining who is part of Old Covenant Israel, was changed.

The two covenants do not exist side by side. The New Covenant replaced the Old Covenant. "He taken away the first, that he may establish the second." Hebrews 10: 9

The Bible does not say in a very explicit way that Christ changed Old Covenant Israel and created an Israel - always Israel is the people of God - reborn in Christ. This gives the dispensationalists their "loophole" to insert their doctrine that Old Covenant Israel still exists as the chosen of God alongside the dispensationalist Church, translated from ekklesia.

Lewis S. Chafer said that dispensationalism has
"...changed the Bible from being a mass of more or less conflicting
writings into a classified and easily assimilated revelation of both
the earthly and heavenly purposes of God, which reach on into eternity
to come.." Lewis. S. Chafer, Dispensationalism, Bibliotheca Sacra, 93 (October 1936), 410, 416, 446-447

Lewis S. Chafer was one of the main classical dispensationalists, following John Darby and C.I Scofield. He founded the Dallas Theological Seminary. Here Chafer admits that the tradition of men called dispensationalism has "changed the Bible.

Chafer admits that dispensationalists themselves made changes in the Bible. They did not change the text, at least not until they took over so many denominations, but they changed the interpretations of some fundamental strands of the Gospel. So, dispensationalist interpretation of the Gospel of Christ is man leaning to his own understanding, contrary to Proverbs 3: 5 - "lean not unto thine own understanding."

Your ignorance in your approach when attempting to arrive at another's intended sense through words is obvious - for it is obvious from the above Ryrie quote that he was referring, to the change in approach that seeking to sort out the Bible's endless; seeming contradictions resulted in.

And that is a claim all schools of thought are forced to assert they too have attempted to solve for.

Your problem is that the Dispensationalist - even the Acts 2 Dispensationalist - forgot to check with the likes of a lost man's own attempts at solving for this same issue, way back in the 1st Century - Josephus, and his parrots, thereafter - your school of "thought."

I say that while in great disagreement with Acts 2 Dispensationalism.

northwye
July 22nd, 2015, 08:28 AM
The spiritual blindness of Old Covenant Israel that Romans 11: 7 and Romans 11: 25 talks about is the spiritual condition of the multitude of physical Israel from the time of Christ to now in 2015. That majority or multitude of physical Israel absolutely does not want the Gospel of Christ or Christ as their Messiah. They are of the spirit of anti-Christ of I John 4: 3.

Romans 11: 25, interpreted by Matthew 24: 14, says that the spiritual condition of blindness by Old Covenant Israel toward the Gospel of Christ will continue the same until the last person who is of the elect of God is saved. When the last elect person in the nations, peoples or Gentiles has been saved, then it will be the end of the age and Christ will be here. Before the age ends, all those who have been elected to salvation will have been saved.

The question is who is physical Israel in 2015, and who will be physical Israel right before the end of the age, when only a very few of the elect in the nations, peoples or Gentiles have not yet been saved? The dispensationalists appear to say that physical Israel is the nation called Israel over in the Middle East, and they imply that physical Israel is made up now of those in Talmudic Judaism.

The dispensationalists focus themselves strongly upon physical Israel, and Christians who are not dispensationalists often believe that they also have to focus on the issue of physical Israel to defend the Gospel of Christ from the dispensationalist errors. Yet almost none of the dispensationlists nor the Christians who are not dispensationalists make an effort to evangelize the Jews in Talmudic Judaism.

Many - or even most - dispensationalists do not even know a Jew personally, or have had close friends or girl friends or boy friends who are Jewish. If they have had close Jewish friends, they know how difficult it is to change the Jewish attitude toward Jesus Christ and the Gospel, which is all the teachings of Christ and his apostles.

You must have the truth in order to be en effective evangelist to bring any of the Jews to the knowledge of the truth. Knowledge of the truth carries with it some anointing which is seen by those who God is leading toward waking up.

Galatians 3, 3, 16, 26-29 implies with a certainty that the way of entering Israel by the physical bloodline is no longer in effect. John 3: 1-7 says everyone must be born again in Christ to enter the kingdom of God. So, physical Israel cannot be saved as a house because of their bloodline. This does not mean that some who are in Talmudic Judaism or in Messianic Judaism cannot come to the knowledge of the truth (I Timothy 2:4), and some will do so, maybe a larger number than before at any time in history. "

"And they that understand among the people shall instruct many: yet they shall fall by the sword, and by flame, by captivity, and by spoil, many days." Daniel 11: 33

"And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ." Revelation 12: 17

Dispensationalists though, are teaching that the entire house of physical Israel will be saved when God goes back to a dispensation of law, which is nowhere in scripture.

Dispensationalists reject the teaching on the remnant and that in the history of redemption God has turned away from the multitute who are in false doctrines and practices and has used the remnant to begin again his work toward redemption. Jeremiah 6: 9 says "they shall throughly glean the remnant of Israel."

Dispensationalists see only the multitude of Old Covenant Israel and not the remnant. It is the multitude in Romans 11: 17-20 which is broken off because of unbelief, while the remnant (Romans 11: 5) is beloved for the sake of the fathers in Romans 11: 28. The fathers are Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. You have to put two and two together to make truth in scripture, "precept must be upon precept, line upon line, here a little and there a little." Isaiah 28: 10 Two plus two must equal four and cannot be any other number, not five., for example.

Jerry Shugart
July 22nd, 2015, 09:42 AM
Just because he doesnt fulfill them the way that you personally want does not make them unfulfilled.

Let us look at the following promise the LORD made to David in regard to the land:


"Now therefore so shalt thou say unto my servant David...I will appoint a place for my people Israel, and will plant them, that they may dwell in a place of their own, and move no more; neither shall the children of wickedness afflict them any more, as beforetime" (2 Sam.7:8,10).

"And move no more"! This promise according to the Davidic covenant is restated later by the prophet Jeremiah:


"For I will set mine eyes upon them for good, and I will bring them again to this land: and I will build them, and not pull them down; and I will plant them, and not pluck them up" (Jer.24:6).

"And not pluck them up"! The prophet Amos says the same thing:


"And I will bring again the captivity of my people ...And I will plant them upon their land, and they shall no more be pulled up out of their land which I have given them, saith the LORD thy God" (Amos 9:14,15).

Therefore we can understand that the Lord has made promises to David in respect to the promised land that have not yet been fulfilled. There has never been a time when the children of Israel have been brought back to the promised land and have not "been pulled up out of their land" (unless that is being fulfilled now).

Since the preterists have no place for the fulfillment of this promise in their eschatology they say;


Just because he doesnt fulfill them the way that you personally want does not make them unfulfilled.

You overlook the fact that the LORD said that He would fulfill His promises which He made to David and He will not alter those promises:


"I have made a covenant with my chosen, I have sworn unto David my servant...Nevertheless my loving-kindness will I not utterly take from him, nor suffer my faithfulness to fail. My covenant will I not break, nor alter the thing that is gone out of my lips. Once have I sworn by my holiness that I will not lie unto David" (Ps.89:3,33-35).

Since the preterists have no place in their eschatology for the fulfillment of these promises of the LORD they make Him a liar because, according to them, the LORD will never fulfill those promises.

Jerry Shugart
July 22nd, 2015, 09:52 AM
Dispensationalists see only the multitude of Old Covenant Israel and not the remnant.

The difference between you and the dispensationism is the fact that the dispensationalist understands that this prophecy is not referring to a remant out of Israel:


"Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord: But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more" (Jer.31:31-34).

Here the passage says, "for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more."

Anyone who would assert that this is referring to a mere remnant is as blind as a bat! All you prove is the fact that you put more faith in your preconceived ideas than you do in what the Scriptures actually say.

HisServant
July 22nd, 2015, 10:13 AM
Let us look at the following promise the LORD made to David in regard to the land:


"Now therefore so shalt thou say unto my servant David...I will appoint a place for my people Israel, and will plant them, that they may dwell in a place of their own, and move no more; neither shall the children of wickedness afflict them any more, as beforetime" (2 Sam.7:8,10).

"And move no more"! This promise according to the Davidic covenant is restated later by the prophet Jeremiah:


"For I will set mine eyes upon them for good, and I will bring them again to this land: and I will build them, and not pull them down; and I will plant them, and not pluck them up" (Jer.24:6).

"And not pluck them up"! The prophet Amos says the same thing:


"And I will bring again the captivity of my people ...And I will plant them upon their land, and they shall no more be pulled up out of their land which I have given them, saith the LORD thy God" (Amos 9:14,15).

Therefore we can understand that the Lord has made promises to David in respect to the promised land that have not yet been fulfilled. There has never been a time when the children of Israel have been brought back to the promised land and have not "been pulled up out of their land" (unless that is being fulfilled now).

Since the preterists have no place for the fulfillment of this promise in their eschatology they say;



You overlook the fact that the LORD said that He would fulfill His promises which He made to David and He will not alter those promises:


"I have made a covenant with my chosen, I have sworn unto David my servant...Nevertheless my loving-kindness will I not utterly take from him, nor suffer my faithfulness to fail. My covenant will I not break, nor alter the thing that is gone out of my lips. Once have I sworn by my holiness that I will not lie unto David" (Ps.89:3,33-35).

Since the preterists have no place in their eschatology for the fulfillment of these promises of the LORD they make Him a liar because, according to them, the LORD will never fulfill those promises.

And your understanding of this amounts to a pile of dung.... you really need to think bigger and use that gray matter God placed between your ears.

But then again, since you do not have the Holy Spirit helping you discern the meaning of scripture.. asking you to do what would be impossible.

northwye
July 22nd, 2015, 10:58 AM
As is often the case, dispensationalists set up a disagreement between scriptures. Jeremiah 31: 3-34 does not mention that it is to be fulfilled in a remnant of Old Covenant Israel. Therefore, the dispensationalists say the New Covenant was not begun in a remnant of Israel. What Paul says in Romans 1: 1-5 is ignored and so is Romans 11: 17-20 saying, in metaphoric language, that the unbelieving branches were broken off. We have to put scriptures together to come to the knowledge of the truth, not follow a tradition of men like dispensationalism. Since Romans 11: 5 says a remnant was elected by grace, then those who were broken off are the multitude, the large majority. Therefore, the New Covenant was begun by a remnant of Old Covenant Israel. But dispensationalism follows what men have said - John Darby, C.I. Scofield, Lewis S. Chafer and a whole bunch of others - and dispensationalism does not come up with two plus two equals four. For it two plus two equals something other than four, or actually nothing in scripture is added together at all by dispensationalists. They like to isolate each text to make it easier to apply their theology to the isolated parts.

And Israel was expanded at the time the New Covenant was put in place by Christ. "And I will sow her unto me in the earth; and I will have mercy upon her that had not obtained mercy; and I will say to them which were not my people, Thou art my people; and they shall say, Thou art my God." Hosea 2: 23

Non-Jews were added to the New Covenant as predicted in Hosea 2: 23, beginning in Acts 10, to join as equals that remnant of Old Covenant Israel which began the Body of Christ in Acts 2.

Jerry Shugart
July 22nd, 2015, 03:06 PM
And your understanding of this amounts to a pile of dung.... you really need to think bigger and use that gray matter God placed between your ears.

You say that it is a pile of dung but you did not even attempt to prove anything which I said is in error.

Why is that?

HisServant
July 22nd, 2015, 03:09 PM
You say that it is a pile of dung but you did not even attempt to prove anything which I said is in error.

Why is that?

Why... every time we do post something in context you just ignore it anyway..

Your beliefs are more important than scripture... so you only use scripture when it up your non-biblical framework and usually only verses or parts of verses and you ignore the rest of the chapter or book.

You guys are the Dan Brown of the Bible.

Jerry Shugart
July 22nd, 2015, 03:38 PM
Therefore, the New Covenant was begun by a remnant of Old Covenant Israel.

That is not what the dispensationalists teach about this passage:


"Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah.Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord: But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more" (Jer.31:31-34).

Instead, they say that this prophecy will be fulfilled in the physical descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

We can see that the "fathers" of those who will receive the New Covenant are described in the following way:


"Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt."

The fathers of those who will be given the New Covenant were the physical descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. That means that those who will receive the New Covenant will also be the physical descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob as well.

And there has never been a time when all those physical descendants of the house of Israel and the house of Judah have had their sins forgiven.

So the fulfillment of the prophecy of Jeremiah 31:31-34 remains in the future. However, the preterists have no place in their eschatology for its fulfillment.

The Lord promised that all of the physical descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob at some point in time will have their sins forgiven. However, the preterists have no place for that to happen according to their eschatology so the god which they worship makes promises and then refuses to fulfill those promises.

Jacob
July 22nd, 2015, 03:41 PM
That is not what the dispensationalists teach about this passage:


"Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah.Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord: But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more" (Jer.31:31-34).

Instead, they say that this prophecy will be fulfilled in the physical descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

We can see that the "fathers" of those who will receive the New Covenant are described in the following way:

"Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt."

The fathers of those who will be given the New Covenant were the physical descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. That means that those who will receive the New Covenant will also be the physical descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob as well.

And there has never been a time when all those physical descendants of the house of Israel and the house of Judah have had their sins forgiven.

So the fulfillment of the prophecy of Jeremiah 31:31-34 remains in the future. However, the preterists have no place in their eschatology for its fulfillment.

The Lord promised that all of the physical descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob at some point in time will have their sins forgiven. However, the preterists have no place for that to happen according to their eschatology so the god which they worship makes promises and then refuses to fulfill those promises.Does not the writer of the book of Hebrews quote from this passage?

HisServant
July 22nd, 2015, 03:42 PM
That is not what the dispensationalists teach about this passage:


"Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah.Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord: But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more" (Jer.31:31-34).

Instead, they say that this prophecy will be fulfilled in the physical descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

We can see that the "fathers" of those who will receive the New Covenant are described in the following way:


"Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt."

The fathers of those who will be given the New Covenant were the physical descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. That means that those who will receive the New Covenant will also be the physical descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob as well.

And there has never been a time when all those physical descendants of the house of Israel and the house of Judah have had their sins forgiven.

So the fulfillment of the prophecy of Jeremiah 31:31-34 remains in the future. However, the preterists have no place in their eschatology for its fulfillment.

The Lord promised that all of the physical descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob at some point in time will have their sins forgiven. However, the preterists have no place for that to happen according to their eschatology so the god which they worship makes promises and then refuses to fulfill those promises.

It could be argued that almost everyone on the earth right now (except a few isolated pockets) has a scrap of Semitic DNA in their system that can be traced back to Abraham.

So is the entire world going to be saved in that verse?

Jerry Shugart
July 22nd, 2015, 03:47 PM
Your beliefs are more important than scripture... so you only use scripture when it up your non-biblical framework and usually only verses or parts of verses and you ignore the rest of the chapter or book.

You talk big but when it comes time to actually proving what I said is in error you are not to be found. Let us look at the following promise the LORD made to David in regard to the land:


"Now therefore so shalt thou say unto my servant David...I will appoint a place for my people Israel, and will plant them, that they may dwell in a place of their own, and move no more; neither shall the children of wickedness afflict them any more, as beforetime" (2 Sam.7:8,10).

"And move no more"! This promise according to the Davidic covenant is restated later by the prophet Jeremiah:


"For I will set mine eyes upon them for good, and I will bring them again to this land: and I will build them, and not pull them down; and I will plant them, and not pluck them up" (Jer.24:6).

"And not pluck them up"! The prophet Amos says the same thing:


"And I will bring again the captivity of my people ...And I will plant them upon their land, and they shall no more be pulled up out of their land which I have given them, saith the LORD thy God" (Amos 9:14,15).

Therefore we can understand that the Lord has made promises to David in respect to the promised land that have not yet been fulfilled. There has never been a time when the children of Israel have been brought back to the promised land and have not "been pulled up out of their land" (unless that is being fulfilled now).

Since the preterists have no place for the fulfillment of this promise in their eschatology they say;


Just because he doesnt fulfill them the way that you personally want does not make them unfulfilled.

You overlook the fact that the LORD said that He would fulfill His promises which He made to David and He will not alter those promises:


"I have made a covenant with my chosen, I have sworn unto David my servant...Nevertheless my loving-kindness will I not utterly take from him, nor suffer my faithfulness to fail. My covenant will I not break, nor alter the thing that is gone out of my lips. Once have I sworn by my holiness that I will not lie unto David" (Ps.89:3,33-35).

Since the preterists have no place in their eschatology for the fulfillment of these promises of the LORD they make Him a liar because, according to them, the LORD will never fulfill those promises.

So far all you have done is talk big at the same time you run and hide from the facts revealed in the passages of the Scriptures which I quoted.


It could be argued that almost everyone on the earth right now (except a few isolated pockets) has a scrap of Semitic DNA in their system that can be traced back to Abraham.

So is the entire world going to be saved in that verse?

If you actually read what is said at Jeremiah 31:31-34 you would know that it is only those of the house of Israel and the house of Judah who will be saved.

You prove once again that when it comes to understanding the Holy Scriptures you are clueless!

HisServant
July 22nd, 2015, 03:49 PM
You talk big but when it comes time to actually proving what I said is in error you are not to be found. Let us look at the following promise the LORD made to David in regard to the land:


"Now therefore so shalt thou say unto my servant David...I will appoint a place for my people Israel, and will plant them, that they may dwell in a place of their own, and move no more; neither shall the children of wickedness afflict them any more, as beforetime" (2 Sam.7:8,10).

"And move no more"! This promise according to the Davidic covenant is restated later by the prophet Jeremiah:


"For I will set mine eyes upon them for good, and I will bring them again to this land: and I will build them, and not pull them down; and I will plant them, and not pluck them up" (Jer.24:6).

"And not pluck them up"! The prophet Amos says the same thing:


"And I will bring again the captivity of my people ...And I will plant them upon their land, and they shall no more be pulled up out of their land which I have given them, saith the LORD thy God" (Amos 9:14,15).

Therefore we can understand that the Lord has made promises to David in respect to the promised land that have not yet been fulfilled. There has never been a time when the children of Israel have been brought back to the promised land and have not "been pulled up out of their land" (unless that is being fulfilled now).

Since the preterists have no place for the fulfillment of this promise in their eschatology they say;



You overlook the fact that the LORD said that He would fulfill His promises which He made to David and He will not alter those promises:


"I have made a covenant with my chosen, I have sworn unto David my servant...Nevertheless my loving-kindness will I not utterly take from him, nor suffer my faithfulness to fail. My covenant will I not break, nor alter the thing that is gone out of my lips. Once have I sworn by my holiness that I will not lie unto David" (Ps.89:3,33-35).

Since the preterists have no place in their eschatology for the fulfillment of these promises of the LORD they make Him a liar because, according to them, the LORD will never fulfill those promises.

So far all you have done is talk big at the same time you run and hide from the facts revealed in the passages of the Scriptures which I quoted.

He hasn't altered them... you just have a twentieth century view of their fulfillment.

Ben Masada
July 23rd, 2015, 04:11 AM
[quote] That majority or multitude of physical Israel absolutely does not want the Gospel of Christ or Christ as their Messiah. They are of the spirit of anti-Christ of I John 4: 3.

You are totally wrong because the gospel of Jesus was Judaism and we all are with Jesus on that. And those who are of the spirit of the anti-Christ belong in the ranks of Christianity itself. (I John 2:28,29)


Before the age ends, all those who have been elected to salvation will have been saved.

What ages, the ages of the generation of Jesus? If that's so, it has ended Jesus has not returned.


The dispensationalists appear to say that physical Israel is the nation called Israel over in the Middle East and they imply that physical Israel is made up now of those in Talmudic Judaism.

Physical Israel is the remnant of Israel according to Isaiah 10:21 who returned to rebuild the Jewish third Commonwealth.


... to defend the Gospel of Christ from the dispensationalist errors. Yet almost none of the dispensationlists nor the Christians who are not dispensationalists make an effort to evangelize the Jews in Talmudic Judaism.

The gospel of Christ is Judaism, the Faith of Jesus.


...how difficult it is to change the Jewish attitude toward Jesus Christ and the Gospel, which is all the teachings of Christ and his apostles.

The teachings of Jesus and his apostles was Judaism.


You must have the truth in order to be en effective evangelist to bring any of the Jews to the knowledge of the truth.

The opposite is true. The Jews already have the truth and must bring Christian evangelists to the Truth.


Galatians 3, 3, 16, 26-29 implies with a certainty that the way of entering Israel by the physical bloodline is no longer in effect.

That's because of the Pauline gospel of Replacement Theology.


"And they that understand among the people shall instruct many: yet they shall fall by the sword, and by flame, by captivity, and by spoil, many days." Daniel 11: 33.

And many among the Jews have felled to the power of the Christian sword.


"And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ." Revelation 12: 17

Yes, the commandments of God aka the Law and the testimony of Jesus aka Judaism.


Dispensationalists though, are teaching that the entire house of physical Israel will be saved when God goes back to a dispensation of law, which is nowhere in scripture.

That's evidence that you never read the Tanach aka Jewish Scripture.


the remnant to begin again his work toward redemption. Jeremiah 6: 9 says "they shall throughly glean the remnant of Israel."

Isaiah 10:21. The remnant who returned to rebuild Israel anew.


Dispensationalists see only the multitude of Old Covenant Israel and not the remnant. It is the multitude in Romans 11: 17-20 which is broken off because of unbelief, while the remnant (Romans 11: 5) is beloved for the sake of the fathers in Romans 11: 28. The fathers are Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. You have to put two and two together to make truth in scripture, "precept must be upon precept, line upon line, here a little and there a little." Isaiah 28: 10 Two plus two must equal four and cannot be any other number, not five., for example.

And the Pauline policy of Replacement Theology has tried to invalidate the work of the remnant of Israel.

Interplanner
July 23rd, 2015, 06:18 AM
Actually, BenM, Paul's theology at its core is dealing with what Judaism replaced. Nevermind the title 'stoicheia tou kosmou' for the moment, he does show in Gal 3:17 that Judaism (as he was taught) voided and replaced the Promise (of the Gospel) with the Law. Meaning, all blessing promised was to arrive in and through the Law.

This is why even today Rabbi Dennis Prager teaches that Judaism had and has a trinity, and torah is one of the three.

Whatever place the Law occupied at that time was replaced, properly, by Christ, in the teaching Paul was commissioned by God. Or by the New Covenant. So you either know the apostolic letter to the Hebrews and refuse it, or you aren't aware that that is what it is saying.

In the west coast area of Little Asia in the 1st century (Ephesus, Colossae, Galatia [Modern area of Galatasary] etc), where Paul settled-in to minister for quite few years, there was a neo-Judaism. I say neo- because it claimed to have new visits from the very angels who delivered torah in Moses' time. They re-energized the Law (we are talking mostly ceremonial here) and called it the gospel. Paul in these letters spells out the true difference between that and the Gospel of Christ. It is exactly what the issue is about.

As far as I can tell you are doing the same thing.

northwye
July 23rd, 2015, 09:06 AM
" I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly." John 10: 10

"52 And sent messengers before his face: and they went, and entered into a village of the Samaritans, to make ready for him. 53 And they did not receive him, because his face was as though he would go to Jerusalem. 54 And when his disciples James and John saw this, they said, Lord, wilt thou that we command fire to come down from heaven, and consume them, even as Elias did? 55 But he turned, and rebuked them, and said, Ye know not what manner of spirit ye are of. 56 For the Son of man is not come to destroy men's lives, but to save them. And they went to another village." Luke 9: 52-56

James and John were following Old Covenant Israel in thnking Christ would, for example, like Elijah did in I Kings 18: 38 and in II Kings 1: 10, call fire down from heaven and burn up those Samaritans who rejected him. But Jesus Christ rebuked them, saying they did not know what kind of spirit they were of. Christ came to bring spiritual life, but also physical life and not death. For Old Covenant Israel killing your spiritual enemies was acceptable and good, but Christ here is saying that in New Covenant Israel we do not destroy men's lives but try to save them. Christ came to bring us life not death.

Physical Old Covenant Israel is no longer the light of the world, or the light to the nations, because Christ is not in it.

Those who are born again in Christ have Christ in them (Galatians 4: 19, Philippians 2: 5) become the light to the nations, because the light of Christ shines from them.

"My little children, over whom I travail in birth again until Christ be formed in you," Galatians 4: 19

"Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus." Philippians 2: 5

"Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:" Colossians 1: 26-27

Matthew 5: 14-16 says "Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid. Neither do men light a candle, and put it under a bushel, but on a candlestick; and it giveth light unto all that are in the house. Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven."

Paul in Ephesians 5: 8 says "For ye were sometimes darkness, but now are ye light in the Lord: walk as children of light:" He tells us in I Thessalonians 5: 5 that "Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness."

"Ye are the salt of the earth: but if the salt have lost his savour, wherewith shall it be salted? it is thenceforth good for nothing, but to be cast out, and to be trodden under foot of men." Matthew 5: 13

Savour is from moranthe, and moranthe is from moros; "to become insipid; figuratively, to make (passively, act) as a simpleton -- become fool, make foolish, lose savour." Many, the majority of those who claim to be Christians, have fulfilled Matthew 5: 13 and have become spiritually dumb, or spiritually dead. They cannot have an influence upon the morals of the society, being in a dumbed down or dead spiritual state, and so the morals of our society are rapidly dropping.

"And again he said, Whereunto shall I liken the kingdom of God?
"It is like leaven, which a woman took and hid in three measures of meal, till the whole was leavened." Luke 13: 20-21

Over time the leaven - false doctrines and practices - grows until the whole kingdom of God is leavened.

But the kingdom of God that is gradually leavened by false doctrines is institutional Christianity - and God has a remnant who are not so leavened. "And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ." "These are they which follow the Lamb withersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and unto the Lamb. And in their mouth was found no guile; for they are without fault before the throne of God." Revelation 4: 4-5

Guile means deception. In an age of deception the remnant is not deceptive.

Dispensationalists bring a strong focus on the issue of whether Old Covenant Israel remains now the chosen people of God. In that strong focus on Old Covenant Israel as being now a people of God, the dispensationalists are not in the spiritual life which Christ came to give us. Continually arguing with them can also bring Christians down to the state of the natural man of I Corinthians 2: 4, who does not receive the things of the Spirit.

Interplanner
July 23rd, 2015, 09:58 AM
Good summary Northwye, and good advice at the end. I don't wish to argue but I do believe in taking apart mistaken arguments so they know they have been challenged.

Totton Linnet
July 24th, 2015, 03:59 PM
You are saying the same things the Jews said that had Christ killed.

Just because he doesnt fulfill them the way that you personally want does not make them unfulfilled.

According to Jesus and the Apostles, they have ALL been fulfilled... if you want to be honest and actually believe them, then you have to approach interpreting things within that framework.

The Jews were expecting a King to sit on the physical throne of David and rule them... but we all know that to be false.

The promises God made to Israel has not been fulfilled

Nations have not beaten their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning hooks....they are still studying war.

The plowshares and pruning hooks is a promise of unimaginable wealth and provision. Nor has Israel ever been the highest hill among the nations.

These promises are not for the church age, for we are to expect wars and rumours of wars, famine and distress of nations.

There is therefore yet an age to come.

Interplanner
July 24th, 2015, 04:03 PM
Sometimes the NT says the OT if fulfilled if there is simply a reason for the thing to be fulfilled. There certainly is in Christ (for the unity of the nations) and Paul had so many friends from other countries. "In Christ there is no east or west."

But Acts 13's sermon concluding statement is that the promises to the fathers were fulfilled in the resurrection, because that proves there is justification from our sins.

Totton Linnet
July 24th, 2015, 04:06 PM
It is the kingdom of heaven which is likened to leaven, not false practises and doctrines.

The church has filled the earth, at this very hour MILLIONS of Chinese are being converted to Christ. There are more Chinese Christians than American Christians. God is on the March in Africa and even India. Like the mustard seed which was the smallest seed it [the church, the kingdom of heaven] has spread throughout the earth.

Totton Linnet
July 24th, 2015, 04:16 PM
Paul teaches extensively upon Israel the nation in Romans...but here is his summing up .

Lest ye be wise in your own conceits I wnt you to understand this mystery brethren. A hardening has come upon part of Israel UNTIL the full number of the Gentiles come in and so ALL Israel will be saved as it is written

The Deliverer will come from Zion, He will banish ungodliness from Jacob, and this will be My covenant with them when I take away their sins"

As regards the gospel they are enemies of God for your sake but as regards ELECTION they are BELOVED for the sake of their forefathers.

For the gifts and calling of God are IRREVOCABLE.

THAT is what I said...if God could cheat on Israel then He might cheat on us...it is unthinkable.

1Mind1Spirit
July 24th, 2015, 04:17 PM
It is the kingdom of heaven which is likened to leaven, not false practises and doctrines.

The church has filled the earth, at this very hour MILLIONS of Chinese are being converted to Christ. There are more Chinese Christians than American Christians. God is on the March in Africa and even India. Like the mustard seed which was the smallest seed it [the church, the kingdom of heaven] has spread throughout the earth.

The kingdom of heaven is not likened to leaven.

It is likened to a loaf in which three measures of meal were hidden.

The world is not the loaf, spiked with the kingdom. :nono:

northwye
July 24th, 2015, 04:28 PM
"It is the kingdom of heaven which is likened to leaven, not false practises and doctrines."

Leaven (zume) is used metaphorically in Matthew 13: 33, Matthew 16: 6, Matthew 16: 12, Mark 8: 15, Luke 12: 1, Luke 13: 21, I Corinthians 5: 6, I Corinthians 5: 7, and I Corinthians 5:8. Leaven from zumoo is used metaphorically also in Galatians 5: 9.

To interpret leaven in these texts as meaning to increase Church membership would be closer to the literal meaning of leaven, to cause bread dough to ferment and rise, or get larger. Dispensationalists insist that scripture must be interpreted literally, so for dispensationalists leaven could mean to increase something, in many cases in the New Testament where leaven is used that would be Church membership. But that literalist interpretation would be false if these scriptures are understood.

Totton Linnet
July 24th, 2015, 04:57 PM
"It is the kingdom of heaven which is likened to leaven, not false practises and doctrines."

Leaven (zume) is used metaphorically in Matthew 13: 33, Matthew 16: 6, Matthew 16: 12, Mark 8: 15, Luke 12: 1, Luke 13: 21, I Corinthians 5: 6, I Corinthians 5: 7, and I Corinthians 5:8. Leaven from zumoo is used metaphorically also in Galatians 5: 9.

To interpret leaven in these texts as meaning to increase Church membership would be closer to the literal meaning of leaven, to cause bread dough to ferment and rise, or get larger. Dispensationalists insist that scripture must be interpreted literally, so for dispensationalists leaven could mean to increase something, in many cases in the New Testament where leaven is used that would be Church membership. But that literalist interpretation would be false if these scriptures are understood.

No it is the kingdom, sticking to the text. God's reign.

Do you know what the devil does? he counterfeits God, through politicians he develops welfare programs, the effect is STILL to lift mankind and that is God's will. So with the gospel come civilisation.

It is not numbers but God's will being done on earth and His will is that ALL men be saved....now hospitals, schools and welfare programs do not equate to eternal life, nevertheless they are God's will for even sinful man.

That is how the kingdom of God is like unto leaven

Totton Linnet
July 24th, 2015, 04:59 PM
The kingdom of heaven is not likened to leaven.

It is likened to a loaf in which three measures of meal were hidden.

The world is not the loaf, spiked with the kingdom. :nono:

Sorry bud but Jesu's words are "the kingdom of heaven is like unto leaven which a woman put into bread"

northwye
July 24th, 2015, 06:45 PM
Dispensationalists do not like to have scriptures about spiritual life quoted to them. Often they will argue against such texts in side steps away from any particular scripture that deals with spiritual life.

Some of these scriptures about spiritual life are John 10: 10, Luke 9: 52-56, Galatians 4: 19, Philippians 2: 5, Colossians 1: 26-27, Matthew 5: 14-16, Ephesians 5: 8 and I Thessalonians 5: 5.

"But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned." I Corinthians 2: 14

The natural man of I Corinthians 2: 14 cannot understand the scriptures that deal with spiritual life, some of which are listed above. So he does not like to have these scriptures quoted to him. He wants salvation while remaining in the spiritual condition of the natural man.

"For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you." I Corinthians 11: 19

Scripture is almost never written in a highly explicit way, but even texts which are not metaphoric are often subtle. It is not given to all to understand these texts which are subtle and/or metaphoric (Matthew 13: 11). And so the more subtle and metaphoric nature of many verses in scripture can be used by those who teach false doctrines to get people to believe these false doctrines.

Paul's statements in Romans 2: 28-29 and in Romans 9: 6-8 are clear enough, but the implications of these statements are not spelled out in an explicit way by Paul. What Paul says about the seed from Abraham in Galatians 3: 16, 26-29 is clear, but the implications are not spelled out in such an explicit way that those in the spiritual condition of the natural man of I Corinthians 2: 14 can immediately understand.

So, how did dispensationalism take over the majority of protestant denominations?

John Darby came to the U.S. and Canada between 1862 and 1877 to promote dispensationalism.

Then, during the last decades of the 19th century, dispensationalism began to develop, organize and be promoted through a number of prophetic and Bible conferences.

The Niagara Bible Conferences were held from 1876 to 1897. During this period of about 20 years the dispensationalists were taking took over the conferences from the protestant leaders who were not dispensationalists.

Dispensationalism was moving toward dominance at the Niagra Conferences, but, for a time, non-dispensationalist protestant leaders worked together to oppose dispensationalism.

In order to get non-dispensationalist protestants to accept their doctrines, dispensationalists had to change the predominant "hermeneutic" used by protestants to interpret scripture.

The older Reformation way of interpreting scripture tended to use relevant scripture to interpret other scripture, following Isaiah 28: 10, "...precept upon precept, line upon line...here a little, and there a little."

Dispensationalism tended more to interpret scripture by its own doctrines - and by its peculiar type of literalism. Prophecies must mean exactly what the literal or verse wordings say and must not be "spiritualized." Israel must always mean Old Covenant Israel and can mean no other. Again, the emphasis in dispensationalism is upon the exact verse wordings, which produces a kind of "letter" type of interpretation. For example, Paul uses "letter" several times in Romans and in II Corinthians. In Romans 2: 29 he says "But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly: and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter..."

In Romans 7: 6 he says "But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held: that we should serve in newness of spirit and not in the oldness of the letter."

In II Corinthians 3: 6 Paul explains more of what he means in saying "Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit given life."

Here is Paul again talking about spiritual life and contrasting it to the letter which kills spiritual life.

But back to dispensationalism and the Niagra Bible Conferences. One of the Niagara leaders, Nathaniel West, began in 1893 to attack the theory of the pre-tribulation rapture. Siding with West was Robert Cameron and soon others such as W. J. Erdman, James M. Stifler, William G. Moorehead, and H. W. Frost became convinced that the dispensationalists had been teaching error. Dispensationalists tend to increase their opposition to those who criticize their doctrines. After 1900 the Niagara conferences were no longer held.

But C.I. Scofield's Reference Bible was first published in 1909, and dispensationalism was promoted via this book.

The relationship between dispensationalism and Calvinist Princeton Theology began in about 1878 and continued throughout the period when dispensationalism was taking over many protestant denominations in the U.S. This mix of dispensationalism and Calvinist Princeton Theology was called fundamentalism.

The Southern Baptist Convention had been partly taken over by dispensationalism from the twenties on into the fifties. But in the fifties some Southern Baptist preachers were not dispensationalists. In the sixties First Baptist Church of Dallas preacher, W. A. Criswell, and others led a dispensationmalist takeover of the Southern Baptist Convention. Crisswell and the other Baptist dispensationalists did not call their theology dispensationalism; they often called it fundamentalism.

After the Crisswell led takeover, the Convention replaced its seminary professors who were not dispensationalists with dispensationalists and got rid of the old Southern Baptist doctrine of the priesthood of the believer. The doctrine of the priesthood of the believer might imply that the believer could determine, at least to some extent, his own specific beliefs. That idea is not consistent with Dispensationalism.

1Mind1Spirit
July 24th, 2015, 07:18 PM
Sorry bud but Jesu's words are "the kingdom of heaven is like unto leaven which a woman put into bread"

Yep my bad.

The kingdom is hidden inside the dough.

The dough is not the world.

Ben Masada
May 10th, 2016, 12:05 PM
Sometimes the NT says the OT if fulfilled if there is simply a reason for the thing to be fulfilled. There certainly is in Christ (for the unity of the nations) and Paul had so many friends from other countries. "In Christ there is no east or west."

But Acts 13's sermon concluding statement is that the promises to the fathers were fulfilled in the resurrection, because that proves there is justification from our sins.

In what sense could resurrection prove justification from our sins when Jesus himself said that, in other words, justification from our sins is proved by listening to "Moses" aka the Law? If you find hard to believe, read Luke 16:29-31. And what does the Tanach say about it? It says that, "If you obey Me faithfully and keep My commandments and My covenant you shall be My treasured possession among all the peoples. Indeed all the earth is Mine but you shall be to me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation." (Exod. 19:5,6)

SaulToPaul
May 10th, 2016, 12:52 PM
Yep my bad.

The kingdom is hidden inside the dough.

The dough is not the world.

I wonder why there are 3 measures?
See my signature.