PDA

View Full Version : Matthew 11:10 - Exodus 23:20



daqq
July 18th, 2015, 04:04 PM
Matthew 11:7-15
7. Moreover, as they went their way, Yeshua commenced saying to the multitudes concerning Yochanan: What did you go out into the wilderness to look at? A reed shaken with the wind?
8. But having gone out what did you see? A man clothed in malakos raiment? Behold, they that wear malakos raiment are in the houses of kings.
9. But having gone out what did you see? A prophet? Yea, I say unto you, even much surpassing a prophet:
10. He it is concerning whom it is written, "Behold, I send My Angel before thy face, who shall prepare thy way before thee."
11. Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there has not arisen a greater than Yochanan the Immerser: yet he that is but little in the kingdom of the heavens is greater than he.
12. Moreover, from the days of Yochanan the Immerser until now, the kingdom of the heavens suffers violence and the violent seize it by force:
13. For all the Prophets and the Torah prophesied until Yochanan.
14. And if you are willing to receive it, he is Eliyahu, that is about to come.
15. He that has ears, let him hear!

In the passage above, from Matthew 11:10, we find the following Scripture quote and statement in which the Master Teacher Yeshua, in quoting from the Scripture, emphatically states that the Scripture which he quotes concerns Yochanan the Immerser:

Matthew 11:10
10. He it is concerning whom it is written, "Behold, I send My Angel before thy face, who shall prepare thy way before thee."

Where is this statement written in the Scripture? It is only found in one place and that is not Malachi 3:1, as the scholars and their commentaries all appear to assume, but rather the statement is a direct quote from the LXX-Septuagint version of Exodus 23:20a. The Scripture quote from Matthew 11:10b is copied straight from the Septuagint, verbatim, word for word from the Greek:

Matthew 11:10 W/H 1881
οὗτός ἐστιν περὶ οὗ γέγραπται Ἰδοὺ ἐγὼ ἀποστέλλω τὸν ἄγγελόν μου πρὸ προσώπου σου, ὃς κατασκευάσει τὴν ὁδόν σου ἔμπροσθέν σου.
http://biblehub.com/text/matthew/11-10.htm

Exodus 23:20 LXX-Septuagint
Καὶ ἰδοὺ ἐγὼ ἀποστέλλω τὸν ἄγγελόν μου πρὸ προσώπου σου, ἵνα φυλάξῃ σε ἐν τῇ ὁδῷ, ὅπως εἰσαγάγῃ σε εἰς τὴν γῆν, ἣν ἡτοίμασά σοι.
http://www.ellopos.net/elpenor/greek-texts/septuagint/chapter.asp?book=2&page=23

The statement from Malachi 3:1a-b is not even close:

Malachi 3:1 LXX-Septuagint
ἰδοὺ ἐγὼ ἐξαποστέλλω τὸν ἄγγελόν μου, καὶ ἐπιβλέψεται ὁδὸν πρὸ προσώπου μου, καὶ ἐξαίφνης ἥξει εἰς τὸν ναὸν ἑαυτοῦ Κύριος, ὃν ὑμεῖς ζητεῖτε, καὶ ὁ ἄγγελος τῆς διαθήκης, ὃν ὑμεῖς θέλετε· ἰδοὺ ἔρχεται, λέγει Κύριος παντοκράτωρ.
http://www.ellopos.net/elpenor/greek-texts/septuagint/chapter.asp?book=42&page=3

Without Καὶ (And) Exodus 23:20a is identical to Matthew 11:10b:

Exodus 23:20a LXX-Septuagint
ἰδοὺ ἐγὼ ἀποστέλλω τὸν ἄγγελόν μου πρὸ προσώπου σου,

Matthew 11:10b
Ἰδοὺ ἐγὼ ἀποστέλλω τὸν ἄγγελόν μου πρὸ προσώπου σου,

The statement from Malachi 3:1a-b is not the same:

Malachi 3:1a-b LXX-Septuagint
ἰδοὺ ἐγὼ ἐξαποστέλλω τὸν ἄγγελόν μου, καὶ ἐπιβλέψεται ὁδὸν πρὸ προσώπου μου

Here it is in KJV English:

Matthew 11:10 KJV
10. For this is he, of whom it is written, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee.

Exodus 23:20 LXX-Septuagint (Brenton Translation)
20 And, behold, I send my angel before thy face, that he may keep thee in the way, that he may bring thee into the land which I have prepared for thee.
http://biblehub.com/sep/exodus/23.htm

Malachi 3:1 KJV
1. Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the Lord of hosts.

Malachi 3:1 LXX-Septuagint (Brenton Translation)
1. Behold, I send forth my messenger, and he shall survey the way before me: and the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come into his temple, even the angel of the covenant, whom ye take pleasure in: behold, he is coming, saith the Lord Almighty.
http://biblehub.com/sep/malachi/3.htm

Matthew 11:10b duplicates Exodus 23:20a word for word as if copied straight from the Septuagint. And "THEE-THINE-YOU-YOUR" [σου] and "ME-MY-MINE" [μου] are not the same in any language. Yeshua therefore emphatically states from the Torah that Yochanan the Immerser is not only Eliyahu-Elijah but likewise the Malak-Angel-Messenger of Exodus 23:20-23. Likewise Matthew is not the only place where we find this quote from Exodus but again it appears in both Mark 1:2 and Luke 7:27. Mark reveals even more detail as the author places this quote from Exodus 23:20 together with the quote from Isaiah 40:3. This reveals that when Yeshayah-Isaiah speaks of "the voice of a Cryer in the wilderness" the Prophet is speaking of the Malak of Exodus 23:20 and, therefore, the same is Yochanan the Immerser according to the doctrine of Yeshua:

Mark 1:2-3
2. As it is written in the prophets, Behold, I send My Angel before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee [Exodus 23:20].
3. The voice of a Cryer in the wilderness, Prepare you the way of YHWH, make His paths straight .

If these things be true, and they are, then how can these things be properly understood? Can it be that Yochanan pre-existed his physical incarnation? Obviously not according to fundamental Christian doctrine. What it means then is that one must be fully willing to believe all that Yeshua teaches and this includes another emphatic statement from the same Matthew passage quoted at the top where Yeshua says that all the Prophets and the Torah prophesied until Yochanan:

Matthew 11:13
13. For all the Prophets and [I]the Torah prophesied until Yochanan.

Unless you can prove it wrong what does this mean to YOUR doctrine? :)

:sheep:

keypurr
July 18th, 2015, 04:47 PM
Matthew 11:7-15
7. Moreover, as they went their way, Yeshua commenced saying to the multitudes concerning Yochanan: What did you go out into the wilderness to look at? A reed shaken with the wind?
8. But having gone out what did you see? A man clothed in malakos raiment? Behold, they that wear malakos raiment are in the houses of kings.
9. But having gone out what did you see? A prophet? Yea, I say unto you, even much surpassing a prophet:
10. He it is concerning whom it is written, "Behold, I send My Angel before thy face, who shall prepare thy way before thee."
11. Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there has not arisen a greater than Yochanan the Immerser: yet he that is but little in the kingdom of the heavens is greater than he.
12. Moreover, from the days of Yochanan the Immerser until now, the kingdom of the heavens suffers violence and the violent seize it by force:
13. For all the Prophets and the Torah prophesied until Yochanan.
14. And if you are willing to receive it, he is Eliyahu, that is about to come.
15. He that has ears, let him hear!

In the passage above, from Matthew 11:10, we find the following Scripture quote and statement in which the Master Teacher Yeshua, in quoting from the Scripture, emphatically states that the Scripture which he quotes concerns Yochanan the Immerser:

Matthew 11:10
10. He it is concerning whom it is written, "Behold, I send My Angel before thy face, who shall prepare thy way before thee."

Where is this statement written in the Scripture? It is only found in one place and that is not Malachi 3:1, as the scholars and their commentaries all appear to assume, but rather the statement is a direct quote from the LXX-Septuagint version of Exodus 23:20a. The Scripture quote from Matthew 11:10b is copied straight from the Septuagint, verbatim, word for word from the Greek:

Matthew 11:10 W/H 1881
οὗτός ἐστιν περὶ οὗ γέγραπται Ἰδοὺ ἐγὼ ἀποστέλλω τὸν ἄγγελόν μου πρὸ προσώπου σου, ὃς κατασκευάσει τὴν ὁδόν σου ἔμπροσθέν σου.
http://biblehub.com/text/matthew/11-10.htm

Exodus 23:20 LXX-Septuagint
Καὶ ἰδοὺ ἐγὼ ἀποστέλλω τὸν ἄγγελόν μου πρὸ προσώπου σου, ἵνα φυλάξῃ σε ἐν τῇ ὁδῷ, ὅπως εἰσαγάγῃ σε εἰς τὴν γῆν, ἣν ἡτοίμασά σοι.
http://www.ellopos.net/elpenor/greek-texts/septuagint/chapter.asp?book=2&page=23

The statement from Malachi 3:1a-b is not even close:

Malachi 3:1 LXX-Septuagint
ἰδοὺ ἐγὼ ἐξαποστέλλω τὸν ἄγγελόν μου, καὶ ἐπιβλέψεται ὁδὸν πρὸ προσώπου μου, καὶ ἐξαίφνης ἥξει εἰς τὸν ναὸν ἑαυτοῦ Κύριος, ὃν ὑμεῖς ζητεῖτε, καὶ ὁ ἄγγελος τῆς διαθήκης, ὃν ὑμεῖς θέλετε· ἰδοὺ ἔρχεται, λέγει Κύριος παντοκράτωρ.
http://www.ellopos.net/elpenor/greek-texts/septuagint/chapter.asp?book=42&page=3

Without Καὶ (And) Exodus 23:20a is identical to Matthew 11:10b:

Exodus 23:20a LXX-Septuagint
ἰδοὺ ἐγὼ ἀποστέλλω τὸν ἄγγελόν μου πρὸ προσώπου σου,

Matthew 11:10b
Ἰδοὺ ἐγὼ ἀποστέλλω τὸν ἄγγελόν μου πρὸ προσώπου σου,

The statement from Malachi 3:1a-b is not the same:

Malachi 3:1a-b LXX-Septuagint
ἰδοὺ ἐγὼ ἐξαποστέλλω τὸν ἄγγελόν μου, καὶ ἐπιβλέψεται ὁδὸν πρὸ προσώπου μου

Here it is in KJV English:

Matthew 11:10 KJV
10. For this is he, of whom it is written, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee.

Exodus 23:20 LXX-Septuagint (Brenton Translation)
20 And, behold, I send my angel before thy face, that he may keep thee in the way, that he may bring thee into the land which I have prepared for thee.
http://biblehub.com/sep/exodus/23.htm

Malachi 3:1 KJV
1. Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the Lord of hosts.

Malachi 3:1 LXX-Septuagint (Brenton Translation)
1. Behold, I send forth my messenger, and he shall survey the way before me: and the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come into his temple, even the angel of the covenant, whom ye take pleasure in: behold, he is coming, saith the Lord Almighty.
http://biblehub.com/sep/malachi/3.htm

Matthew 11:10b duplicates Exodus 23:20a word for word as if copied straight from the Septuagint. And "THEE-THINE-YOU-YOUR" [σου] and "ME-MY-MINE" [μου] are not the same in any language. Yeshua therefore emphatically states from the Torah that Yochanan the Immerser is not only Eliyahu-Elijah but likewise the Malak-Angel-Messenger of Exodus 23:20-23. Likewise Matthew is not the only place where we find this quote from Exodus but again it appears in both Mark 1:2 and Luke 7:27. Mark reveals even more detail as the author places this quote from Exodus 23:20 together with the quote from Isaiah 40:3. This reveals that when Yeshayah-Isaiah speaks of "the voice of a Cryer in the wilderness" the Prophet is speaking of the Malak of Exodus 23:20 and, therefore, the same is Yochanan the Immerser according to the doctrine of Yeshua:

Mark 1:2-3
2. As it is written in the prophets, Behold, I send My Angel before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee [Exodus 23:20].
3. The voice of a Cryer in the wilderness, Prepare you the way of YHWH, make His paths straight .

If these things be true, and they are, then how can these things be properly understood? Can it be that Yochanan pre-existed his physical incarnation? Obviously not according to fundamental Christian doctrine. What it means then is that one must be fully willing to believe all that Yeshua teaches and this includes another emphatic statement from the same Matthew passage quoted at the top where Yeshua says that all the Prophets and the Torah prophesied until Yochanan:

Matthew 11:13
13. For all the Prophets and [I]the Torah prophesied until Yochanan.

Unless you can prove it wrong what does this mean to YOUR doctrine? :)

:sheep:

If true, and I think it might be, it shows that God used his his heavenly spiritual beings in more than one way. Now you have my mind working overtime to unravel this.

Thanks. I just ordered a new Arabic translation of the NT. Have you heard anything about it? Are you using it?

daqq
July 18th, 2015, 05:03 PM
Also at the following links are some of the most prominent and well known commentaries offered for Matthew 11:10 and its companion passages. As one may clearly see not one of them even mentions Exodus 23:20 while several of them even go so far as to assert that this statement does not come from the Septuagint. And although they appear to be speaking of the Septuagint version of Malachi 3:1 still yet one would think that such a blatant error would not have escaped at least one of the major commentaries.


Ellicott's Commentary for English Readers
(10) This is he, of whom it is written.—The words in the Greek are not taken from the LXX. version of Malachi 3:1, but are a free translation from the Hebrew. In the original it is Jehovah Himself who speaks of His own coming: “Behold, I will send My messenger, and he shall prepare the way before Me.” In the Evangelist’s paraphrase it is Jehovah who speaks to the Christ—“shall prepare Thy way before Thee.”
http://biblehub.com/commentaries/matthew/11-10.htm
Meyer's NT Commentary
Matthew 11:10 is not an interpolation by the evangelist (Weizsäcker); on the contrary, it forms the connecting link between Matthew 11:9; Matthew 11:11. The passage is Malachi 3:1, and is a free rendering of the Hebrew and not from the LXX.
http://biblehub.com/commentaries/matthew/11-10.htm
Expositor's Greek Testament
Matthew 11:10. οὑτος … γέγραπται. The περισσότερον verified and explained by a prophetic citation. The oracle is taken from Malachi 3, altered so as to make the Messianic reference apparent—μου changed into σου.
http://biblehub.com/commentaries/matthew/11-10.htm
Pulpit Commentary
Verse 10. - For. Omitted in the Revised Version. It is here an explanatory gloss, though genuine in Matthew 3:3. This is he, of whom it is written. Our Lord justifies his assertion of John's unique position. Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee. Malachi 3:1, not from the LXX., but freely from the Hebrew, which runs, "Behold, I send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me."

Observe in Matthew
(1) "thy way"
(2) "before thee," instead of "before me;"
http://biblehub.com/commentaries/matthew/11-10.htmSeveral more commentaries are supplied at the same link, including Matthew Henry's and Gill's, but as plainly shown above they seem to note the problem with the different reading between "ME" and "YOU" however not one of them seems to be able to SEE that what is written in Exodus 23:20 is IDENTICAL to the passage they are fumbling over. One even goes so far as to state that the text was altered and changed by the author to make it suit his needs! :crackup:

:sheep:

1Mind1Spirit
July 18th, 2015, 05:09 PM
If true, and I think it might be, it shows that God used his his heavenly spiritual beings in more than one way. Now you have my mind working overtime to unravel this.



I reckon ole Malachi was speakin' of the Holy Spirit after Christ's ascension.

achduke
July 18th, 2015, 05:13 PM
Matthew 11:7-15
7. Moreover, as they went their way, Yeshua commenced saying to the multitudes concerning Yochanan: What did you go out into the wilderness to look at? A reed shaken with the wind?
8. But having gone out what did you see? A man clothed in malakos raiment? Behold, they that wear malakos raiment are in the houses of kings.
9. But having gone out what did you see? A prophet? Yea, I say unto you, even much surpassing a prophet:
10. He it is concerning whom it is written, "Behold, I send My Angel before thy face, who shall prepare thy way before thee."
11. Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there has not arisen a greater than Yochanan the Immerser: yet he that is but little in the kingdom of the heavens is greater than he.
12. Moreover, from the days of Yochanan the Immerser until now, the kingdom of the heavens suffers violence and the violent seize it by force:
13. For all the Prophets and the Torah prophesied until Yochanan.
14. And if you are willing to receive it, he is Eliyahu, that is about to come.
15. He that has ears, let him hear!

In the passage above, from Matthew 11:10, we find the following Scripture quote and statement in which the Master Teacher Yeshua, in quoting from the Scripture, emphatically states that the Scripture which he quotes concerns Yochanan the Immerser:

Matthew 11:10
10. He it is concerning whom it is written, "Behold, I send My Angel before thy face, who shall prepare thy way before thee."

Where is this statement written in the Scripture? It is only found in one place and that is not Malachi 3:1, as the scholars and their commentaries all appear to assume, but rather the statement is a direct quote from the LXX-Septuagint version of Exodus 23:20a. The Scripture quote from Matthew 11:10b is copied straight from the Septuagint, verbatim, word for word from the Greek:

Matthew 11:10 W/H 1881
οὗτός ἐστιν περὶ οὗ γέγραπται Ἰδοὺ ἐγὼ ἀποστέλλω τὸν ἄγγελόν μου πρὸ προσώπου σου, ὃς κατασκευάσει τὴν ὁδόν σου ἔμπροσθέν σου.
http://biblehub.com/text/matthew/11-10.htm

Exodus 23:20 LXX-Septuagint
Καὶ ἰδοὺ ἐγὼ ἀποστέλλω τὸν ἄγγελόν μου πρὸ προσώπου σου, ἵνα φυλάξῃ σε ἐν τῇ ὁδῷ, ὅπως εἰσαγάγῃ σε εἰς τὴν γῆν, ἣν ἡτοίμασά σοι.
http://www.ellopos.net/elpenor/greek-texts/septuagint/chapter.asp?book=2&page=23

The statement from Malachi 3:1a-b is not even close:

Malachi 3:1 LXX-Septuagint
ἰδοὺ ἐγὼ ἐξαποστέλλω τὸν ἄγγελόν μου, καὶ ἐπιβλέψεται ὁδὸν πρὸ προσώπου μου, καὶ ἐξαίφνης ἥξει εἰς τὸν ναὸν ἑαυτοῦ Κύριος, ὃν ὑμεῖς ζητεῖτε, καὶ ὁ ἄγγελος τῆς διαθήκης, ὃν ὑμεῖς θέλετε· ἰδοὺ ἔρχεται, λέγει Κύριος παντοκράτωρ.
http://www.ellopos.net/elpenor/greek-texts/septuagint/chapter.asp?book=42&page=3

Without Καὶ (And) Exodus 23:20a is identical to Matthew 11:10b:

Exodus 23:20a LXX-Septuagint
ἰδοὺ ἐγὼ ἀποστέλλω τὸν ἄγγελόν μου πρὸ προσώπου σου,

Matthew 11:10b
Ἰδοὺ ἐγὼ ἀποστέλλω τὸν ἄγγελόν μου πρὸ προσώπου σου,

The statement from Malachi 3:1a-b is not the same:

Malachi 3:1a-b LXX-Septuagint
ἰδοὺ ἐγὼ ἐξαποστέλλω τὸν ἄγγελόν μου, καὶ ἐπιβλέψεται ὁδὸν πρὸ προσώπου μου

Here it is in KJV English:

Matthew 11:10 KJV
10. For this is he, of whom it is written, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee.

Exodus 23:20 LXX-Septuagint (Brenton Translation)
20 And, behold, I send my angel before thy face, that he may keep thee in the way, that he may bring thee into the land which I have prepared for thee.
http://biblehub.com/sep/exodus/23.htm

Malachi 3:1 KJV
1. Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the Lord of hosts.

Malachi 3:1 LXX-Septuagint (Brenton Translation)
1. Behold, I send forth my messenger, and he shall survey the way before me: and the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come into his temple, even the angel of the covenant, whom ye take pleasure in: behold, he is coming, saith the Lord Almighty.
http://biblehub.com/sep/malachi/3.htm

Matthew 11:10b duplicates Exodus 23:20a word for word as if copied straight from the Septuagint. And "THEE-THINE-YOU-YOUR" [σου] and "ME-MY-MINE" [μου] are not the same in any language. Yeshua therefore emphatically states from the Torah that Yochanan the Immerser is not only Eliyahu-Elijah but likewise the Malak-Angel-Messenger of Exodus 23:20-23. Likewise Matthew is not the only place where we find this quote from Exodus but again it appears in both Mark 1:2 and Luke 7:27. Mark reveals even more detail as the author places this quote from Exodus 23:20 together with the quote from Isaiah 40:3. This reveals that when Yeshayah-Isaiah speaks of "the voice of a Cryer in the wilderness" the Prophet is speaking of the Malak of Exodus 23:20 and, therefore, the same is Yochanan the Immerser according to the doctrine of Yeshua:

Mark 1:2-3
2. As it is written in the prophets, Behold, I send My Angel before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee [Exodus 23:20].
3. The voice of a Cryer in the wilderness, Prepare you the way of YHWH, make His paths straight .

If these things be true, and they are, then how can these things be properly understood? Can it be that Yochanan pre-existed his physical incarnation? Obviously not according to fundamental Christian doctrine. What it means then is that one must be fully willing to believe all that Yeshua teaches and this includes another emphatic statement from the same Matthew passage quoted at the top where Yeshua says that all the Prophets and the Torah prophesied until Yochanan:

Matthew 11:13
13. For all the Prophets and [I]the Torah prophesied until Yochanan.

Unless you can prove it wrong what does this mean to YOUR doctrine? :)

:sheep:

John the Baptist had the holy spirit in him.

Luke 1:15 "For he will be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink. He will also be filled with the Holy Spirit, even from his mother's womb.

Matthew 12:32 "Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come.

1Mind1Spirit
July 18th, 2015, 05:16 PM
John the Baptist had the holy spirit in him.

Luk 1:15 "For he will be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink. He will also be filled with the Holy Spirit, even from his mother's womb.

As much as a man could have at that time.

Only God's son was given the Spirit without measure.

daqq
July 18th, 2015, 05:17 PM
If true, and I think it might be, it shows that God used his his heavenly spiritual beings in more than one way. Now you have my mind working overtime to unravel this.

Thanks. I just ordered a new Arabic translation of the NT. Have you heard anything about it? Are you using it?

Hi Keypurr, :)

The truth is in the statement that the Torah prophesied until John but mainstream Christianity will probably never admit that because to most the Law is "done away with" or abolished. How then can one still say the same if the Torah was not even fully implemented and enforce until Golgotha? It truly is mercy and grace because it actually lets those of old time off the hook for not understanding Torah before Messiah had come. Nobody could have understood it before that time. It is all expounded in the Testimony of Yeshua. If Messiah had not come we would still not understand it to this day, (for the Torah is spiritual). As for an Arabic translation do you mean Aramaic? If so, be careful friend, Matthew is the only account we know that was originally written in Hebrew-Aramaic. However, no, I have not read an Aramaic translation, (neither do I read Aramaic) but have perused some portions of translations from Aramaic which I did not care for any more than the Textus Receptus, (which is the Greek that the KJV and YLT are rendered from). There are also ongoing projects in Aramaic Bibles so I am not really sure what you mean. :)

achduke
July 18th, 2015, 05:17 PM
As much as a man could have at that time.

Only God's son was given the Spirit without measure.

Rev 5:6 And I looked, and behold, in the midst of the throne and of the four living creatures, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as though it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent out into all the earth.

daqq
July 18th, 2015, 05:20 PM
You all have fun with this thread:
I'm gonna let it ride . . . :)

:sheep:

meshak
July 18th, 2015, 05:24 PM
Matthew 11:7-15
7. Moreover, as they went their way, Yeshua commenced saying to the multitudes concerning Yochanan: What did you go out into the wilderness to look at? A reed shaken with the wind?
8. But having gone out what did you see? A man clothed in malakos raiment? Behold, they that wear malakos raiment are in the houses of kings.
9. But having gone out what did you see? A prophet? Yea, I say unto you, even much surpassing a prophet:
10. He it is concerning whom it is written, "Behold, I send My Angel before thy face, who shall prepare thy way before thee."
11. Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there has not arisen a greater than Yochanan the Immerser: yet he that is but little in the kingdom of the heavens is greater than he.
12. Moreover, from the days of Yochanan the Immerser until now, the kingdom of the heavens suffers violence and the violent seize it by force:
13. For all the Prophets and the Torah prophesied until Yochanan.
14. And if you are willing to receive it, he is Eliyahu, that is about to come.
15. He that has ears, let him hear!

In the passage above, from Matthew 11:10, we find the following Scripture quote and statement in which the Master Teacher Yeshua, in quoting from the Scripture, emphatically states that the Scripture which he quotes concerns Yochanan the Immerser:

Matthew 11:10
10. He it is concerning whom it is written, "Behold, I send My Angel before thy face, who shall prepare thy way before thee."

Where is this statement written in the Scripture? It is only found in one place and that is not Malachi 3:1, as the scholars and their commentaries all appear to assume, but rather the statement is a direct quote from the LXX-Septuagint version of Exodus 23:20a. The Scripture quote from Matthew 11:10b is copied straight from the Septuagint, verbatim, word for word from the Greek:

Matthew 11:10 W/H 1881
οὗτός ἐστιν περὶ οὗ γέγραπται Ἰδοὺ ἐγὼ ἀποστέλλω τὸν ἄγγελόν μου πρὸ προσώπου σου, ὃς κατασκευάσει τὴν ὁδόν σου ἔμπροσθέν σου.
http://biblehub.com/text/matthew/11-10.htm

Exodus 23:20 LXX-Septuagint
Καὶ ἰδοὺ ἐγὼ ἀποστέλλω τὸν ἄγγελόν μου πρὸ προσώπου σου, ἵνα φυλάξῃ σε ἐν τῇ ὁδῷ, ὅπως εἰσαγάγῃ σε εἰς τὴν γῆν, ἣν ἡτοίμασά σοι.
http://www.ellopos.net/elpenor/greek-texts/septuagint/chapter.asp?book=2&page=23

The statement from Malachi 3:1a-b is not even close:

Malachi 3:1 LXX-Septuagint
ἰδοὺ ἐγὼ ἐξαποστέλλω τὸν ἄγγελόν μου, καὶ ἐπιβλέψεται ὁδὸν πρὸ προσώπου μου, καὶ ἐξαίφνης ἥξει εἰς τὸν ναὸν ἑαυτοῦ Κύριος, ὃν ὑμεῖς ζητεῖτε, καὶ ὁ ἄγγελος τῆς διαθήκης, ὃν ὑμεῖς θέλετε· ἰδοὺ ἔρχεται, λέγει Κύριος παντοκράτωρ.
http://www.ellopos.net/elpenor/greek-texts/septuagint/chapter.asp?book=42&page=3

Without Καὶ (And) Exodus 23:20a is identical to Matthew 11:10b:

Exodus 23:20a LXX-Septuagint
ἰδοὺ ἐγὼ ἀποστέλλω τὸν ἄγγελόν μου πρὸ προσώπου σου,

Matthew 11:10b
Ἰδοὺ ἐγὼ ἀποστέλλω τὸν ἄγγελόν μου πρὸ προσώπου σου,

The statement from Malachi 3:1a-b is not the same:

Malachi 3:1a-b LXX-Septuagint
ἰδοὺ ἐγὼ ἐξαποστέλλω τὸν ἄγγελόν μου, καὶ ἐπιβλέψεται ὁδὸν πρὸ προσώπου μου

Here it is in KJV English:

Matthew 11:10 KJV
10. For this is he, of whom it is written, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee.

Exodus 23:20 LXX-Septuagint (Brenton Translation)
20 And, behold, I send my angel before thy face, that he may keep thee in the way, that he may bring thee into the land which I have prepared for thee.
http://biblehub.com/sep/exodus/23.htm

Malachi 3:1 KJV
1. Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the Lord of hosts.

Malachi 3:1 LXX-Septuagint (Brenton Translation)
1. Behold, I send forth my messenger, and he shall survey the way before me: and the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come into his temple, even the angel of the covenant, whom ye take pleasure in: behold, he is coming, saith the Lord Almighty.
http://biblehub.com/sep/malachi/3.htm

Matthew 11:10b duplicates Exodus 23:20a word for word as if copied straight from the Septuagint. And "THEE-THINE-YOU-YOUR" [σου] and "ME-MY-MINE" [μου] are not the same in any language. Yeshua therefore emphatically states from the Torah that Yochanan the Immerser is not only Eliyahu-Elijah but likewise the Malak-Angel-Messenger of Exodus 23:20-23. Likewise Matthew is not the only place where we find this quote from Exodus but again it appears in both Mark 1:2 and Luke 7:27. Mark reveals even more detail as the author places this quote from Exodus 23:20 together with the quote from Isaiah 40:3. This reveals that when Yeshayah-Isaiah speaks of "the voice of a Cryer in the wilderness" the Prophet is speaking of the Malak of Exodus 23:20 and, therefore, the same is Yochanan the Immerser according to the doctrine of Yeshua:

Mark 1:2-3
2. As it is written in the prophets, Behold, I send My Angel before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee [Exodus 23:20].
3. The voice of a Cryer in the wilderness, Prepare you the way of YHWH, make His paths straight .

If these things be true, and they are, then how can these things be properly understood? Can it be that Yochanan pre-existed his physical incarnation? Obviously not according to fundamental Christian doctrine. What it means then is that one must be fully willing to believe all that Yeshua teaches and this includes another emphatic statement from the same Matthew passage quoted at the top where Yeshua says that all the Prophets and the Torah prophesied until Yochanan:

Matthew 11:13
13. For all the Prophets and [I]the Torah prophesied until Yochanan.

Unless you can prove it wrong what does this mean to YOUR doctrine? :)

:sheep:

what is your point?

thank you.

1Mind1Spirit
July 18th, 2015, 05:33 PM
Rev 5:6 And I looked, and behold, in the midst of the throne and of the four living creatures, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as though it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent out into all the earth.





John 13:3 KJV


3 Jesus knowing that the Father had given all things into his hands, and that he was come from God, and went to God;





John 16


14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

15 All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I , that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

16 A little while, and ye shall not see me: and again, a little while, and ye shall see me, because I go to the Father.

25 These things have I spoken unto you in proverbs: but the time cometh , when I shall no more speak unto you in proverbs, but I shall shew you plainly of the Father.


Now read Malachi and understand the Revelation verse.

1Mind1Spirit
July 18th, 2015, 05:38 PM
Hi Keypurr, :)

The truth is in the statement that the Torah prophesied until John but mainstream Christianity will probably never admit that because to most the Law is "done away with" or abolished. How then can one still say the same if the Torah was not even fully implemented and enforce until Golgotha? It truly is mercy and grace because it actually lets those of old time off the hook for not understanding Torah before Messiah had come. Nobody could have understood it before that time. It is all expounded in the Testimony of Yeshua. If Messiah had not come we would still not understand it to this day, (for the Torah is spiritual).

:thumb:

1Mind1Spirit
July 18th, 2015, 05:46 PM
Rev 5:6 And I looked, and behold, in the midst of the throne and of the four living creatures, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as though it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent out into all the earth.

God's seven spirits?


2 Peter 1:5 KJV


5 And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;

6 And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;

7 And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.

achduke
July 18th, 2015, 06:00 PM
John 13:3 KJV


3 Jesus knowing that the Father had given all things into his hands, and that he was come from God, and went to God;





John 16


14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

15 All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I , that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

16 A little while, and ye shall not see me: and again, a little while, and ye shall see me, because I go to the Father.

25 These things have I spoken unto you in proverbs: but the time cometh , when I shall no more speak unto you in proverbs, but I shall shew you plainly of the Father.


Now read Malachi and understand the Revelation verse.

Now you made me reread Malachi.

Mal 2:5 "My covenant was with him, one of life and peace, and I gave them to him that he might fear Me; so he feared Me and was reverent before My name.

Mal 2:6 The law of truth was in his mouth, and injustice was not found on his lips. He walked with Me in peace and equity, and turned many away from iniquity.

Mal 2:7 "For the lips of a priest should keep knowledge, and people should seek the law from his mouth; for he is the messenger of the LORD of hosts.

Zec 3:7 "Thus says the LORD of hosts: 'If you will walk in My ways, and if you will keep My command, then you shall also judge My house, and likewise have charge of My courts; I will give you places to walk among these who stand here.

Zec 3:9 For behold, the stone that I have laid before Joshua: upon the stone are seven eyes. Behold, I will engrave its inscription,' says the LORD of hosts, 'And I will remove the iniquity of that land in one day.

Zec 4:2 And he said to me, "What do you see?" So I said, "I am looking, and there is a lampstand of solid gold with a bowl on top of it, and on the stand seven lamps with seven pipes to the seven lamps.

Zec 4:6 So he answered and said to me: "This is the word of the LORD to Zerubbabel: 'Not by might nor by power, but by My Spirit,' says the LORD of hosts.

Zec 4:10 For who has despised the day of small things? for these seven rejoice to see the plumb line in the hand of Zerubbabel. They are the eyes of the LORD, which scan to and fro throughout the whole earth."

Isa 11:1 There shall come forth a Rod from the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots.

Isa 11:2 The Spirit of the LORD(1) shall rest upon Him, the Spirit of wisdom(2) and understanding(3), the Spirit of counsel(4) and might(5), the Spirit of knowledge(6) and of the fear(7) of the LORD.

1Mind1Spirit
July 18th, 2015, 06:01 PM
Satan's seven emulations?

16 These six things doth the LORD hate : yea, seven are an abomination unto him:

17 A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood,


18 An heart that deviseth wicked imaginations, feet that be swift in running to mischief,

19 A false witness that speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among brethren.

1Mind1Spirit
July 18th, 2015, 06:05 PM
Now you made me reread Malachi.

Mal 2:5 "My covenant was with him, one of life and peace, and I gave them to him that he might fear Me; so he feared Me and was reverent before My name.

Mal 2:6 The law of truth was in his mouth, and injustice was not found on his lips. He walked with Me in peace and equity, and turned many away from iniquity.

Mal 2:7 "For the lips of a priest should keep knowledge, and people should seek the law from his mouth; for he is the messenger of the LORD of hosts.

Zec 3:7 "Thus says the LORD of hosts: 'If you will walk in My ways, and if you will keep My command, then you shall also judge My house, and likewise have charge of My courts; I will give you places to walk among these who stand here.

Zec 3:9 For behold, the stone that I have laid before Joshua: upon the stone are seven eyes. Behold, I will engrave its inscription,' says the LORD of hosts, 'And I will remove the iniquity of that land in one day.

Zec 4:2 And he said to me, "What do you see?" So I said, "I am looking, and there is a lampstand of solid gold with a bowl on top of it, and on the stand seven lamps with seven pipes to the seven lamps.

Zec 4:6 So he answered and said to me: "This is the word of the LORD to Zerubbabel: 'Not by might nor by power, but by My Spirit,' says the LORD of hosts.

Zec 4:10 For who has despised the day of small things? for these seven rejoice to see the plumb line in the hand of Zerubbabel. They are the eyes of the LORD, which scan to and fro throughout the whole earth."

Isa 11:1 There shall come forth a Rod from the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots.

Isa 11:2 The Spirit of the LORD(1) shall rest upon Him, the Spirit of wisdom(2) and understanding(3), the Spirit of counsel(4) and might(5), the Spirit of knowledge(6) and of the fear(7) of the LORD.

I like it. :)

daqq
July 18th, 2015, 06:25 PM
what is your point?

thank you.

Hi Meshak, :)

Yeshua says the Angel-Messenger of Exodus 23:20 is Yochanan the Immerser.

Therefore this speaks of Yochanan the Immerser:

Exodus 23:20-23
20. And, behold, I send My Angel before thy face, that he may keep thee in the way, that he may bring thee into the land which I have prepared for thee.
21. Beware of him, and obey his voice, provoke him not; for he will not pardon your transgressions: for My name is in him [Eliyahu].
22. But if thou shalt indeed obey his voice, and do all that I speak; then I will be an enemy unto thine enemies, and an adversary unto thine adversaries.
23. For My Angel shall go before thee, and bring thee in unto the Amorites, and the Chittites, and the Perizzites, and the Canaanites, and the Gergashites, and the Hivites, and the Jebusites: and I will cut them off.

All the Prophets and the Torah prophesied until Yochanan. So then Torah could not have been fully implemented or "fully operational" until Messiah came and expounded it. It is expounded in Gospel accounts through the Testimony of Yeshua. For the same reason no one can come to the Father except through Messiah Yeshua; and that is by hearing, observing, understanding, and doing his Testimony, parables, idioms, sayings, doctrine, and commandments which are written. The portion quoted above then was not even fulfilled until the time when the word of Elohim came to Yochanan in the desert, (Luke 3:1-2). :)

1Mind1Spirit
July 18th, 2015, 06:44 PM
Hi Meshak, :)

Yeshua says the Angel-Messenger of Exodus 23:20 is Yochanan the Immerser.

Therefore this speaks of Yochanan the Immerser:

Exodus 23:20-23
20. And, behold, I send My Angel before thy face, that he may keep thee in the way, that he may bring thee into the land which I have prepared for thee.
21. Beware of him, and obey his voice, provoke him not; for he will not pardon your transgressions: for My name is in him [Eliyahu].
22. But if thou shalt indeed obey his voice, and do all that I speak; then I will be an enemy unto thine enemies, and an adversary unto thine adversaries.
23. For My Angel shall go before thee, and bring thee in unto the Amorites, and the Chittites, and the Perizzites, and the Canaanites, and the Gergashites, and the Hivites, and the Jebusites: and I will cut them off.



Yep, and followin' Jesus through them, ummmmm, folks, can get hairy.:chuckle:

Specially when they are gettin' cut off.

daqq
July 18th, 2015, 06:48 PM
Isa 11:2 The Spirit of the LORD(1) shall rest upon Him, the Spirit of wisdom(2) and understanding(3), the Spirit of counsel(4) and might(5), the Spirit of knowledge(6) and of the fear(7) of the LORD.

Hi Achduke, :)

Perhaps rather this way:

Isaiah 11:2
2. And the Spirit of YHWH shall rest upon him, the Spirit of wisdom [1] and understanding [2], the Spirit of counsel [3] and might [4], the Spirit of knowledge [5] and of the reverential-fear [6] of YHWH.

John 1:17
17. Because the Torah through Moshe was given; the grace and the truth through Messiah Yeshua came to be.

Hebrews 10:29
29. Of how much sorer punishment, suppose you, shall he be thought worthy who has trodden under foot the Son of Elohim, and has counted the blood of the Covenant wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and has done despite unto the Spirit of grace [7]?

You think? :)

:sheep:

achduke
July 18th, 2015, 06:50 PM
Delete

achduke
July 18th, 2015, 06:52 PM
Hi Achduke, :)

Perhaps rather this way:

Isaiah 11:2
2. And the Spirit of YHWH shall rest upon him, the Spirit of wisdom [1] and understanding [2], the Spirit of counsel [3] and might [4], the Spirit of knowledge [5] and of the reverential-fear [6] of YHWH.

John 1:17
17. Because the Torah through Moshe was given; the grace and the truth through Messiah Yeshua came to be.

Hebrews 10:29
29. Of how much sorer punishment, suppose you, shall he be thought worthy who has trodden under foot the Son of Elohim, and has counted the blood of the Covenant wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and has done despite unto the Spirit of grace [7]?

You think? :)

:sheep:

Maybe. I just know Christ had the fulness of the holy spirit IN him.

daqq
July 18th, 2015, 06:56 PM
Good ol' John the Baptist. A descendant of Aaron the High Priest! The greatest man born from women Jesus said, and let's not forget that he made Jesus way straight!

Luke 1:5
In the time of Herod king of Judea there was a priest named Zechariah, who belonged to the priestly division of Abijah; his wife Elizabeth was also a descendant of Aaron

:thumb:


Yep, and followin' Jesus through them, ummmmm, folks, can get hairy.:chuckle:

Specially when they are gettin' cut off.

:thumb:

Hello to the both of you also and thank you for your contributions. I really have to drag myself away from here now, (and this thread was really going good too thanks to everyone involved). May the Father bless your Bread of Life and Living Water! :)

:sheep:

daqq
July 19th, 2015, 04:52 AM
Originally Posted by daqq http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/images/bluesaint/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showthread.php?p=4389117#post4389117)
23. For My Angel shall go before thee, and bring thee in unto the Amorites, and the Chittites, and the Perizzites, and the Canaanites, and the Gergashites, and the Hivites, and the Jebusites: and I will cut them off.Yep, and followin' Jesus through them, ummmmm, folks, can get hairy.:chuckle:

Specially when they are gettin' cut off.

Do you mean like Esau was sa`iyr-kid-goat-shaggy-hairy, (Genesis 27:11)? :crackup:

Matthew 8:28 KJV
28. And when he was come to the other side into the country of the Gergesenes, [GSN#1086 Gergasenos-Girgashite] there met him two possessed with devils, coming out of the tombs, exceeding fierce, so that no man might pass by that way.

Original Strong's Ref. #1086
Romanized Gergesenos
Pronounced gher-ghes-ay-nos'
of Hebrew origin [HSN1622]; a Gergesene (i.e. Girgashite) or one of the aborigines of Palestine:
KJV--Gergesene.

Heard it said that some of that genos of hairy can be legion . . . :chuckle:

:sheep:

daqq
July 19th, 2015, 05:57 AM
Good ol' John the Baptist. A descendant of Aaron the High Priest! The greatest man born from women Jesus said,

So then Yeshua cannot be born of a woman or Yochanan would be greater:

Matthew 11:11
11. Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there has not arisen a greater than Yochanan the Immerser: yet he that is but little in the kingdom of the heavens is greater than he.

And not only that but anyone born from above is not born of woman:

John 1:12-13
12. But as many as received him, to them he gave authority to become tekna-offspring of Elohim, to them faithfully trusting into his name:
13. those not from blood, neither from the will of the flesh, nor from the will of man, but contrariwise from Elohim having been begotten.

So the holy Elohim seed is supernal and Spirit . . .
And thus all the upright genealogies are "mano-y-mano" . . . :Nineveh:

:sheep:

Interplanner
July 19th, 2015, 07:10 AM
Any human born from above is a human born of woman, too, before being born from above.

What is "mano-y-mano..."?

achduke
July 19th, 2015, 07:44 AM
What is "mano-y-mano..."?

Hand to hand.

daqq
July 19th, 2015, 07:45 AM
Any human born from above is a human born of woman, too, before being born from above.

What is "mano-y-mano..."?

Spanish "mano-y-mano" is "one-on-one" or "man-to-man" as in the upright genealogies:

Matthew 1:2 KJV
2. Abraham begat Isaac; and Isaac begat Jacob; and Jacob begat Judas and his brethren;

But as for being "born of a woman" one must differentiate, (or perhaps "rightly divide") between the flesh and the Spirit. My mother is Yerushalaim of above according to the writings, (Galatians 4:26). Do you not remember what I said to you just yesterday concerning this very topic? :)


How about you Interplanner? Is Jerusalem of Above your mother covenant as Paul says? Is Jerusalem of Above Israel or Sarah? Or do you think Jerusalem of Above represents something else in this allegory? Paul clearly states that it is an allegory and clearly states that it is an allegory of TWO COVENANTS. Is Sarah-Jerusalem of Above your "mother covenant" too or do you ignore Paul on this one as most do? :chuckle:

*SNIP*

How then will you understand what it means to bear fruit in the kingdom of God accordingly as it is written? The first [covenant] is only transformed at the time appointed of the Father and that is to each in his or her own appointed times, (and none shall be alone in his appointed times). For when it pleased God, who separated me from the womb of my mother, and called me by his grace to reveal his Son in me, (for Messiah is formed in a man by the sowing of the seed of the Word into his heart) I needed no more from that time to confer with flesh and blood: from a babe have I known the holy Scriptures, but of course I do not speak of physical birth any more than Paul does. :crackup:

:sheep:

Interplanner
July 19th, 2015, 08:23 AM
I thought you expressed yourself clearly, but this is mumbling.

The language in both Rom 9 and Gal 4 about Isaac does not have to mean there was sexual intercourse that procreated him. Like Jesus and John.

The Gal 4 analogy is intended simply to show that those in Judaism are not free like those in the Christian faith. Those in Judaism can't go out and do the mission to the nations because they are stuck in the Law (and will get others stuck in it and in barricades against the nations) instead of the outgoing Gospel.

daqq
July 19th, 2015, 08:56 AM
I thought you expressed yourself clearly, but this is mumbling.

The language in both Rom 9 and Gal 4 about Isaac does not have to mean there was sexual intercourse that procreated him. Like Jesus and John.

The Gal 4 analogy is intended simply to show that those in Judaism are not free like those in the Christian faith. Those in Judaism can't go out and do the mission to the nations because they are stuck in the Law (and will get others stuck in it and in barricades against the nations) instead of the outgoing Gospel.

You speak only from and of yourself and are not only mumbling but failing to apply to yourself what Paul teaches. There is Torah of Elohim, (Horeb the Mountain of Elohim) and Torah of Sinai below. Neither one is "done away" but rather simply have two different applications. You do not believe much of what Pauly truly says do you? Or do you simply not understand? That is okay but even if so that does not mean it is me who is the mumbler just because you do not understand what is written. I believe both Yeshua and Paul probably more then most so-called mainstream Christians such as yourself. Therefore I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me, (in the flesh). For I delight in the Torah of Elohim according to the inward man: but I see another law in my members warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members, (the body of flesh). O wretched man that I am: who shall deliver me from the body of this death? I thank Elohim through (the Testimony of) Messiah Yeshua our Master. So then with the mind I myself serve the Torah of Elohim, [Horeb] but with the flesh the law of sin, [Sinai] (Romans 7:21-25). Without the Torah you have nothing to keep your own body-house-temple under submission and your members therefore eat, drink, and rise up to play, (not good). :crackup:

:sheep:

Interplanner
July 19th, 2015, 09:06 AM
Do you think you are saying something that is making the discussion progress?

check the title of this thread again. Do you have something to say about the title?

daqq
July 19th, 2015, 11:07 AM
Do you think you are saying something that is making the discussion progress?

check the title of this thread again. Do you have something to say about the title?

Please go get the OP of this thread and ask him if my posts have been acceptable. He said on page one that he was going to "let it ride" which also seems to mean "go with the flow". You then said some things on the previous page which I answered to accordingly. And yet now this is your response? Please go blow your hot air somewhere else, unless you have something constructive to add, and please start using Scripture to back up your assertions. As for adding something to the OP and thread title I already totally agree with it and am still waiting for someone else who does not agree to refute the OP and show him the error of his ways. Perhaps the OP already knew that the opening post cannot be refuted and that is why he decided to "let it ride" in this thread and go with the flow? I dunno, ya think I may putting words in his mouth? :)

:sheep:

1Mind1Spirit
July 19th, 2015, 02:38 PM
Do you mean like Esau was sa`iyr-kid-goat-shaggy-hairy, (Genesis 27:11)? :crackup:

Matthew 8:28 KJV
28. And when he was come to the other side into the country of the Gergesenes, [GSN#1086 Gergasenos-Girgashite] there met him two possessed with devils, coming out of the tombs, exceeding fierce, so that no man might pass by that way.

Original Strong's Ref. #1086
Romanized Gergesenos
Pronounced gher-ghes-ay-nos'
of Hebrew origin [HSN1622]; a Gergesene (i.e. Girgashite) or one of the aborigines of Palestine:
KJV--Gergesene.

Heard it said that some of that genos of hairy can be legion . . . :chuckle:

:sheep:

YEP.

There was a time that I figgered this couldn't happen to me.


Luke 11:26 KJV


26 Then goeth he , and taketh to him seven other spirits more wicked than himself; and they enter in , and dwell there: and the last state of that man is worse than the first.


It's all part of the program.


Proverbs 24:16 KJV


16 For a just man falleth seven times, and riseth up again : but the wicked shall fall into mischief.


How do we rise again?




John 5:21 KJV


21 For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will .




Few have actually seen the hardness of Jesus or tasted his sweetness.

Many are still in the drawing stage not giving credit to our Father.

daqq
July 19th, 2015, 03:04 PM
YEP.

There was a time that I figgered this couldn't happen to me.


Luke 11:26 KJV


26 Then goeth he , and taketh to him seven other spirits more wicked than himself; and they enter in , and dwell there: and the last state of that man is worse than the first.


It's all part of the program.


Proverbs 24:16 KJV


16 For a just man falleth seven times, and riseth up again : but the wicked shall fall into mischief.


How do we rise again?




John 5:21 KJV


21 For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will .




Few have actually seen the hardness of Jesus or tasted his sweetness.

Many are still in the drawing stage not giving credit to our Father.

Wow, and the Son is given the right to divide between the sons of light and the sons of darkness as the Kohen Gadol after the order of Melki-Tzedek has the two stones in the pouch of his Ephod Breastplate: a white light stone with a new name having been written therein, or a black light stone of the blackness of the darkness of strong delusion forever. If therefore the light that is inside the man be darkness: how great is that darkness! :)

:sheep:

daqq
July 20th, 2015, 08:40 AM
26 Then goeth he , and taketh to him seven other spirits more wicked than himself; and they enter in , and dwell there: and the last state of that man is worse than the first.


It's all part of the program.


Proverbs 24:16 KJV


16 For a just man falleth seven times, and riseth up again : but the wicked shall fall into mischief.

Yep, it is indeed part of the program, well said. Sorta like an immersion process; seven dips, dunks, or plunges at the Jordan River, like Naaman the Syrian with leprosy that was healed. In reality the plunges of the immersion do not all have to occur at one time or in a single day, even though all seven are considered as the seven plunges of the one immersion, but can come to pass over great lengths of time, (though there is a final hour where everything is abridged, recapped, rediscovered, even brought to remembrance). Mariam Magdalene likewise had seven demons or devils cast out of her. Funny we never hear much about this in the Gospel preaching of the modern shepherd pulpits. By the Luke passage you have quoted, (and the Matthew companion passage) we see that indeed every man is likened to a house:

Luke 11:24-26 KJV
24. When the unclean spirit is gone out of a man, he walketh through dry places, seeking rest; and finding none, he saith, I will return unto my house whence I came out.
25. And when he cometh, he findeth it swept and garnished.
26. Then goeth he, and taketh to him seven other spirits more wicked than himself; and they enter in, and dwell there: and the last state of that man is worse than the first.

This is scapegoat typology. The sa`iyr-goat twin which is chosen by lot to/for Azazel is sent away into the desert (dry-arid places) with all the sins of the people upon his mortally wounded head. His head is mortally wounded because the High Priest puts his hands upon the head of the goat and confesses all the sins of the people over the goat before the goat is sent away into the wilderness. In tradition the goat was destroyed because of the catastrophic implications if the goat were to wonder back into the camp with all the sins of the people upon its head. However we do not actually read anywhere that the "scapegoat" was to be destroyed. This is the very reason why also; for in supernal and spiritual terms, the twin goat ALWAYS returns to the man and his house with all his sins upon his mortally wounded head, (two horns like a lamb but speaks like a dragon). Moses also says so in Torah when he writes: "Be sure that your sin will find you out", (Numbers 32:23).

So then, if the first unclean spirit of the world and prince of the power of the air goes out, and then makes a compact, associating with himself seven other spirits more wicked than himself, and then he returns to the house of the man with all the other seven wicked fellows: would it not make the first unclean spirit then "the eighth and of the seven"? (Revelation 17:11). The Testimony of Yeshua is the Spirit of the Prophecy. :)

:sheep:

1Mind1Spirit
July 20th, 2015, 03:03 PM
Yep, it is indeed part of the program, well said. Sorta like an immersion process; seven dips, dunks, or plunges at the Jordan River, like Naaman the Syrian with leprosy that was healed. In reality the plunges of the immersion do not all have to occur at one time or in a single day, even though all seven are considered as the seven plunges of the one immersion, but can come to pass over great lengths of time, (though there is a final hour where everything is abridged, recapped, rediscovered, even brought to remembrance). Mariam Magdalene likewise had seven demons or devils cast out of her. Funny we never hear much about this in the Gospel preaching of the modern shepherd pulpits. By the Luke passage you have quoted, (and the Matthew companion passage) we see that indeed every man is likened to a house:

Luke 11:24-26 KJV
24. When the unclean spirit is gone out of a man, he walketh through dry places, seeking rest; and finding none, he saith, I will return unto my house whence I came out.
25. And when he cometh, he findeth it swept and garnished.
26. Then goeth he, and taketh to him seven other spirits more wicked than himself; and they enter in, and dwell there: and the last state of that man is worse than the first.

This is scapegoat typology. The sa`iyr-goat twin which is chosen by lot to/for Azazel is sent away into the desert (dry-arid places) with all the sins of the people upon his mortally wounded head. His head is mortally wounded because the High Priest puts his hands upon the head of the goat and confesses all the sins of the people over the goat before the goat is sent away into the wilderness. In tradition the goat was destroyed because of the catastrophic implications if the goat were to wonder back into the camp with all the sins of the people upon its head. However we do not actually read anywhere that the "scapegoat" was to be destroyed. This is the very reason why also; for in supernal and spiritual terms, the twin goat ALWAYS returns to the man and his house with all his sins upon his mortally wounded head, (two horns like a lamb but speaks like a dragon). Moses also says so in Torah when he writes: "Be sure that your sin will find you out", (Numbers 32:23).

So then, if the first unclean spirit of the world and prince of the power of the air goes out, and then makes a compact, associating with himself seven other spirits more wicked than himself, and then he returns to the house of the man with all the other seven wicked fellows: would it not make the first unclean spirit then "the eighth and of the seven"?

:sheep:

Yes, the spirit of anti-christ is figured just as Christ is the eighth and of the seven spirits of God.

Add to our faith:

virtue,knowledge,temperance,patience,godliness,bro therly kindness and charity.


The only way I know how to add anything to myself is to ask for it.


Luke 11:13 KJV


13 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?



There is a reason Paul talks of rebirth in those until Christ was formed in them.

He also was speaking as he was being taught when he said he some times thought he and the other Apostles were set up for a spectacle.



(Revelation 17:11). The Testimony of Yeshua is the Spirit of the Prophecy. :)

Indeed. :)

daqq
July 22nd, 2015, 03:23 AM
There is a reason Paul talks of rebirth in those until Christ was formed in them.

And how is it that Messiah is formed in a person? The Torah is our paidagogos crossing guard or "schoolmaster", to bring us to Messiah, as Paul says. And if Yochanan the Immerser is the Malak of Exodus 23:20-23 then he is the Messenger who leads us in the way of righteousness, through the "desert", and into the Land. The immersion of Yochanan is therefore an immersion into Torah and Prophets, (the washing of water into the word). Therefore one must first have the immersion of Yochanan, (which even Cornelius and his "household" knew) which includes immersion into Torah and Prophets and thereby repentance toward the sending away of sins, (the immersion of Yochanan). And with those things in tow one must then devote at least a full year of intense immersion into the Testimony of Yeshua found in the Gospel accounts, as did the Antiochians under Paul and Barnabas, (Acts 11:26) and this is a true Christianos for only then will the Christos begin to be formed in a person:

Matthew 3:11 ASV
11. I indeed baptize you in water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you in the Holy Spirit and in fire:

John 3:5 ASV
5. Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except one be born of water [the immersion of Yochanan] and the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God!

Matthew 21:32 ASV
31. Which of the two did the will of his father? They say, The first. Jesus saith unto them, Verily I say unto you, that the publicans and the harlots go into the kingdom of God before you.
32. For John came unto you in the way of righteousness, and ye believed him not; but the publicans and the harlots believed him: and ye, when ye saw it, did not even repent yourselves afterward, that ye might believe him.

I have not found any translation renderings of the following passage which I can fully agree with but the Young's Literal Bible Translation is the closest:

Acts 1:5 YLT
5. because John, indeed, baptized with water, and ye shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit - after not many days.'

Acts 1:5 Transliterated Unaccented
5. hoti Ioannes men ebaptisen hudati, humeis de en Pneumati baptisthesesthe Hagio ou meta pollas tautas hemeras."

"Because indeed Yochanan did immerse [you] in water, you moreover in Spirit shall be immersed Holy not many days hence."

This cryptic statement implies that the immersion of Yochanan was necessary first, which is the water immersion INTO THE WORD, and an immersion of repentance toward the sending away of sins. When we check the record concerning the first critical immersion of a Gentile such as Cornelius we see the same prerequisite having been met:

Acts 10:37
37. That word, I say, you know, which was published throughout all Yhudah, and began from the Galilees with the immersion which Yochanan preached:

This is stated to Cornelius and his household, in his house, and confirmed again with a reference back to Acts 1:5 when Peter rehearses what had happened in the next chapter:

Acts 11:15-16
15. And as I began to speak, the Holy Spirit fell upon them, as on us at the beginning.
16. Then remembered I the word of the Master, how that he said, Yochanan indeed immersed [you] in water; you moreover shall be immersed in Spirit Holy.

:)

keypurr
July 24th, 2015, 03:41 PM
Hi Keypurr, :)

The truth is in the statement that the Torah prophesied until John but mainstream Christianity will probably never admit that because to most the Law is "done away with" or abolished. How then can one still say the same if the Torah was not even fully implemented and enforce until Golgotha? It truly is mercy and grace because it actually lets those of old time off the hook for not understanding Torah before Messiah had come. Nobody could have understood it before that time. It is all expounded in the Testimony of Yeshua. If Messiah had not come we would still not understand it to this day, (for the Torah is spiritual). As for an Arabic translation do you mean Aramaic? If so, be careful friend, Matthew is the only account we know that was originally written in Hebrew-Aramaic. However, no, I have not read an Aramaic translation, (neither do I read Aramaic) but have perused some portions of translations from Aramaic which I did not care for any more than the Textus Receptus, (which is the Greek that the KJV and YLT are rendered from). There are also ongoing projects in Aramaic Bibles so I am not really sure what you mean. :)


ARAMAIC ENGLISH NEW TESTAMENT

Very interesting translation, I have only had it for three days so I really should not judge it. But the notes that came with it are great. They use the Khabouris Codex from the Eastern Peshitta family.

I thought this would be a great resource for my library. It is the only non Greek translation that I have.

Check it out at

www.aent.org

Let me know what you think as I respect your views.

daqq
July 24th, 2015, 04:27 PM
ARAMAIC ENGLISH NEW TESTAMENT

Very interesting translation, I have only had it for three days so I really should not judge it. But the notes that came with it are great. They use the Khabouris Codex from the Eastern Peshitta family.

I thought this would be a great resource for my library. It is the only non Greek translation that I have.

Check it out at

www.aent.org (http://www.aent.org)

Let me know what you think ad I respect your views.

Hi Keypurr, thanks for the link, Aramaic was what I thought you probably meant but wanted to make sure because Aramaic is indeed the parent language for modern Arabic. One problem I see right away is this statement from the top of the page in the link you have provided:

"Popular English New Testaments come from Greek translations originally converted from Hebrew and Aramaic texts."

Not that I want to argue the point here, (with anyone else who might decide to jump in) but the statement quoted above cannot be proven at this time, (and it does not appear that this will change anytime soon unless some autograph or "original manuscripts" are someday found). Other than that I think that the cultural, historical, and various other background notes that you will find should be highly enlightening and well worth the purchase. Treat it just as you do all of your other translations, (with a grain of salt). :)

keypurr
July 24th, 2015, 07:15 PM
Hi Keypurr, thanks for the link, Aramaic was what I thought you probably meant but wanted to make sure because Aramaic is indeed the parent language for modern Arabic. One problem I see right away is this statement from the top of the page in the link you have provided:

"Popular English New Testaments come from Greek translations originally converted from Hebrew and Aramaic texts."

Not that I want to argue the point here, (with anyone else who might decide to jump in) but the statement quoted above cannot be proven at this time, (and it does not appear that this will change anytime soon unless some autograph or "original manuscripts" are someday found). Other than that I think that the cultural, historical, and various other background notes that you will find should be highly enlightening and well worth the purchase. Treat it just as you do all of your other translations, (with a grain of salt). :)


Thank you for the Comeback.

I treat all my translations with an open mind, hopefully I can learn much from this one. It had a lot of notes on subjects that I have not studied on. So it looks good.

daqq
July 24th, 2015, 09:49 PM
Thank you for the Comeback.

I treat all my translations with an open mind, hopefully I can learn much from this one. It had a lot of notes on subjects that I have not studied on. So it looks good.

:thumb:

And one other thing I might add about pure Hebrew, (not Aramaic) is that in my opinion it is both "the food of Angels" and "the tongue of Angels", (of which Paul writes) because the Torah was given through the instrumentality of the Elohim-Angels, (Acts 7:53). Even in the first century it did not technically have vowels or the vowel pointing which it has today, (which was added much later by the Masoretes). This fact alone is all the more reason for the Apostolic writers to bring the Gospel of Yeshua to the nations in Greek because of the already extant Greek Septuagint. But as I said, not that what you have acquired is bad in any way, and it is probably better than most; but as I said also just be careful, (and prayerful) because there is no perfect translation. They say the Greek came from Aramaic Peshitta(s) but in my own opinion they cannot prove what they assert. That is just my opinion. :)

keypurr
July 24th, 2015, 10:36 PM
:thumb:

And one other thing I might add about pure Hebrew, (not Aramaic) is that in my opinion it is both "the food of Angels" and "the tongue of Angels", (of which Paul writes) because the Torah was given through the instrumentality of the Elohim-Angels, (Acts 7:53). Even in the first century it did not technically have vowels or the vowel pointing which it has today, (which was added much later by the Masoretes). This fact alone is all the more reason for the Apostolic writers to bring the Gospel of Yeshua to the nations in Greek because of the already extant Greek Septuagint. But as I said, not that what you have acquired is bad in any way, and it is probably better than most; but as I said also just be careful, (and prayerful) because there is no perfect translation. They say the Greek came from Aramaic Peshitta(s) but in my own opinion they cannot prove what they assert. That is just my opinion. :)

Thanks again friend, I will be careful not to jump at anything different from my thoughts.

daqq
July 26th, 2015, 04:51 AM
Exodus 33:7-11 Septuagint (Brenton Translation)
7. And Moses took his tabernacle and pitched it without the camp, at a distance from the camp; and it was called the Tabernacle of Testimony: and it came to pass that every one that sought the Lord went forth to the tabernacle which was without the camp.
8. And whenever Moses went into the tabernacle without the camp, all the people stood every one watching by the doors of his tent; and when Moses departed, they took notice until he entered into the tabernacle.
9. And when Moses entered into the tabernacle, the pillar of the cloud descended, and stood at the door of the tabernacle, and God talked to Moses.
10. And all the people saw the pillar of the cloud standing by the door of the tabernacle, and all the people stood and worshipped every one at the door of his tent.
11. And the Lord spoke to Moses face to face, as if one should speak to his friend; and he retired into the camp: but his servant Joshua the son of Naue, a young man, departed not forth from the tabernacle.
http://biblehub.com/sep/exodus/33.htm

So then, Yochanan Eliyahu the Immerser is the voice of the Cryer in the wilderness and the Malak of YHWH that goes before us, to lead us in the Way that the Father has prepared, through the desert journey and into the Land. But the Commander inside the Tent is Yeshua the Son of Perpetuity, (bin Nun) and Yeshua the Son of Perpetuity abides inside the tabernacle-tent of the man because Yhoshua is a typology shadow of the Word of YHWH abiding in our hearts, minds, and souls, tenting with us. :)

Messiah Yeshua Says: I Yeshua have dispatched my messenger to testify unto you these things for the congregations. I am the Riza and the Genos of David, the Star, the Bright, the Morning Dawn.

Yochanan Eliyahu the Immerser Says: He who testifies these things says, Yea, I come quickly! Amen. Come, Master Yeshua.

:sheep:

Ben Masada
July 27th, 2015, 04:26 AM
About the quotes above, the one of Matthew 11:10 is a reference to Ezra as the messenger sent before the Jews in exile in Babylon to prepare the People for the arrival of the remnant of Israel from exile at the end of the 70 week/years captivity in Babylon. The Tanach sources are found in Isa. 40:3 and Mal. 3:1.

Exodus 23:20 points to Hovav the brother-in-law of Moses who was son of Jethro (Numb. 10:28-31)

daqq
July 27th, 2015, 05:57 AM
About the quotes above, the one of Matthew 11:10 is a reference to Ezra as the messenger sent before the Jews in exile in Babylon to prepare the People for the arrival of the remnant of Israel from exile at the end of the 70 week/years captivity in Babylon. The Tanach sources are found in Isa. 40:3 and Mal. 3:1.

Exodus 23:20 points to Hovav the brother-in-law of Moses who was son of Jethro (Numb. 10:28-31)

Matthew 11:10 is already proven by the quotes on page one of this thread to have been taken directly from Exodus 23:20. That does not mean it does not also imply Malachi 3:1 and Isaiah 40:3 because even as Mark 1:2-3 shows, (also quoted on page one of this thread) it does indeed point also to Isaiah 40:3. Malachi 3:1 builds on and refers to Isaiah 40:3 while Isaiah 40:3 clearly speaks of Exodus 23:20. However the huge mistake is in assuming that Yeshua quotes Malachi 3:1 when in fact he is written by the authors to have distinctly and specifically quoted Exodus 23:20 in Matthew 11:10 and Luke 7:27, whereas in Mark 1:3, the author himself quotes Exodus 23:20 and again therein applies the passage to Yochanan the Immerser. There is no way you can "prove" anything outside of this and remain within the boundaries laid out in the apostolic writings on this matter. You may not believe them but that remains what they indeed say and have written.

As for whether Hobab is the brother-in-law of Moses, (Numbers 10:29) or the father-in-law of Moses, (Judges 4:11) it is probably not that the KJV and some other translations rendered one passage incorrectly but rather that it highlights the fact that there is more than one priesthood in play in the Torah, (as we were just discussing in my other thread here (http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=111595&page=3)). And yet how can both be true? It is true if Raguel is one-united of the seven holy malakim who watch, (1Enoch 20:4). Therefore I said, in the other thread, "his Excellence", (Yithrow) Raguel, who is one-united of the seven Elohim princes of beginning, (and thus the Melki-Tzedek Elohim Priesthood is implied). :)

Ben Masada
July 27th, 2015, 06:21 AM
Matthew 11:10 is already proven by the quotes on page one of this thread to have been taken directly from Exodus 23:20. That does not mean it does not also imply Malachi 3:1 and Isaiah 40:3 because even as Mark 1:2-3 shows, (also quoted on page one of this thread) it does indeed point also to Isaiah 40:3. Malachi 3:1 builds on and refers to Isaiah 40:3 while Isaiah 40:3 clearly speaks of Exodus 23:20. However the huge mistake is in assuming that Yeshua quotes Malachi 3:1 when in fact he is written by the authors to have distinctly and specifically quoted Exodus 23:20 in Matthew 11:10 and Luke 7:27, whereas in Mark 1:3, the author himself quotes Exodus 23:20 and again therein applies the passage to Yochanan the Immerser. There is no way you can "prove" anything outside of this and remain within the boundaries laid out in the apostolic writings on this matter. You may not believe them but that remains what they indeed say and have written.

As for whether Hobab is the brother-in-law of Moses, (Numbers 10:29) or the father-in-law of Moses, (Judges 4:11) it is probably not that the KJV and some other translations rendered one passage incorrectly but rather that it highlights the fact that there is more than one priesthood in play in the Torah, (as we were just discussing in my other thread here (http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=111595&page=3)). And yet how can both be true? It is true if Raguel is one-united of the seven holy malakim who watch, (1Enoch 20:4). Therefore I said, in the other thread, "his Excellence", (Yithrow) Raguel, who is one-united of the seven Elohim princes of beginning, (and thus the Melki-Tzedek Elohim Priesthood is implied). :)

The Priests of the Most High

They were the Patriarchs: Abraham, Isaac and Jacob whose seed would be to HaShem a Kingdom of priests and a holy nation. (Exodus 19:6) Only of such a trinity would be possible a kingdom of priests and a holy nation to be called the priests of the Most High.

According to Genesis 14, there was a war of four kings against Sodom and Gomorrah when Lot the nephew of Abraham had been captured and, Abraham mustered 318 of his servants and went out to fight the four kings and was miraculously victorious over them all.

In his return to Beersheba, Abraham stopped by Jerusalem and, Melchizedek, afraid perhaps that Abraham could take Jerusalem, he offered bread and wine to the Priest of the Most High God and blessed him thus: "Blessed be Abram of the Most High God." (Genesis 14:19)

Now, Abraham, being a prince of justice aka "Melchizedek" who never liked to take any thing for free, commanded that 10% of the lute from the war be given to the king of Jerusalem who just by coincidence, happened to be called Melchizedek but, the Priest of the Most High was Abraham.

Melchizedek was a pagan priest of the Canaanites which, among the offices of his priesthood was to sacrifice the firstborn of his people to Baal Molech the main god of the Canaanites as part of their religious culture of the time.

Omniskeptical
July 27th, 2015, 06:25 AM
Melchizedek was a pagan priest of the Canaanites which, among the offices of his priesthood was to sacrifice the firstborn of his people to Baal Molech the main god of the Canaanites as part of their religious culture of the time.You possibly know such. You are impugning an innocent man. At best, you could show he was a Canaanite, and you probably can't that.

Ben Masada
July 27th, 2015, 06:47 AM
You possibly know such. You are impugning an innocent man. At best, you could show he was a Canaanite, and you probably can't that.

The Truth About Melchizedek

Here is a column which I consider will crack under the building of Christianity. Who was Melchizedek? This man was a pagan Canaanite king, who happened to be the king of Salem, ancient name for Jerusalem.

Abram had just returned from a battle with five kings, and, on his way to Beersheba, he paused in Jerusalem for a repast. He and his men were tired and weary of the military campaign. Melchizedek, afraid perhaps that Abram would take on him too and conquer Jerusalem out of his hands, immediately brought forth bread and wine to him and his troops. For Abram, it was a relieve. He didn't have to fight another king.

Now, please, I must remind you that I am reading from the originals in Hebrew and not from the Gentile adulterated version of the KJV. Why would Melchizedek prefer to feed Abram and his army instead of fighting him? Because he, Abram, and not Melchizedek was the priest of God most High, whose seed would be of a nation of priests and kings. (Exod. 19:6; Isa. 61:6)

Then, as Melchizedek served the food and drink, he blessed Abram. Please focus on how he blessed Abram. "Blessed be Abram of God Most High." It means that Melchizedek would recognize that Abram was the one Priest of God the Most High. Creator of the universe." Then, for all the bread and wine, and that blessing of recognition of who Abram really was, Abram shared with him a tenth of the spoils taken from the kings in battle.

Now, let us check Psalm 110:4, which in the KJV says, "The Lord has sworn and will not repent, you are a priest forever after the order of Melchizedek." This is a Christian gloss plagiarized by Paul and grossly forged by the Church in the 4th Century under the excuse of pious forgery.

Here is what Psalm 110:4 says in the originals in Hebrew: "The Lord has sworn and will not relent, you are a priest forever; a rightful king by My decree." As you can see, it has nothing to do with king Melchizedek, king of Salem, but rather to David in the type level of interpretation, which points to the archetype level of Israel, the seed of Abraham as a nation of priests and kings. (Exod. 19:6; Isa. 61:6) Obviously, only the High Priest of the Most High would produce a generation of priests and kings through Israel.

daqq
July 27th, 2015, 06:56 AM
The Priests of the Most High

They were the Patriarchs: Abraham, Isaac and Jacob whose seed would be to HaShem a Kingdom of priests and a holy nation. (Exodus 19:6) Only of such a trinity would be possible a kingdom of priests and a holy nation to be called the priests of the Most High.

According to Genesis 14, there was a war of four kings against Sodom and Gomorrah when Lot the nephew of Abraham had been captured and, Abraham mustered 318 of his servants and went out to fight the four kings and was miraculously victorious over them all.

In his return to Beersheba, Abraham stopped by Jerusalem and, Melchizedek, afraid perhaps that Abraham could take Jerusalem, he offered bread and wine to the Priest of the Most High God and blessed him thus: "Blessed be Abram of the Most High God." (Genesis 14:19)

Now, Abraham, being a prince of justice aka "Melchizedek" who never liked to take any thing for free, commanded that 10% of the lute from the war be given to the king of Jerusalem who just by coincidence, happened to be called Melchizedek but, the Priest of the Most High was Abraham.

Melchizedek was a pagan priest of the Canaanites which, among the offices of his priesthood was to sacrifice the firstborn of his people to Baal Molech the main god of the Canaanites as part of their religious culture of the time.

What you say is so far outside of even Judaism it would be hilarious if it were not so atrocious. Everyone pretty much agrees that Melki-Tzedek is Shem the son of Noach according to the sages. :Shimei:

:sheep:

Ben Masada
July 27th, 2015, 07:13 AM
What you say is so far outside of even Judaism it would be hilarious if it were not so atrocious. Everyone pretty much agrees that Melki-Tzedek is Shem the son of Noach according to the sages. :Shimei:

:sheep:

To say that the Canaanite pagan king/priest of Salem was from Shem a son of Noah, means nothing. All Israel came from Shem a son of Noah. The Jewish Logic about being a priest according to the order of Melchizedek has absolutely nothing to do with the pagan king of Salem who happened to be a priest for the Canaanites and offered the firstborns of many of his people to Baal Molech.

A priest according to the order of Melchizedek was used in Israel as only an expression to represent a king/priest that was not from the lineage of Aaron. David was called one whose Tribe would become to the Lord a kingdom of priests and a holy nation. (Exod. 19:6) And that's a message to be spoken to the children of Israel, especially Judah which was the Tribe of David.

daqq
July 27th, 2015, 03:31 PM
To say that the Canaanite pagan king/priest of Salem was from Shem a son of Noah, means nothing. All Israel came from Shem a son of Noah. The Jewish Logic about being a priest according to the order of Melchizedek has absolutely nothing to do with the pagan king of Salem who happened to be a priest for the Canaanites and offered the firstborns of many of his people to Baal Molech.

A priest according to the order of Melchizedek was used in Israel as only an expression to represent a king/priest that was not from the lineage of Aaron. David was called one whose Tribe would become to the Lord a kingdom of priests and a holy nation. (Exod. 19:6) And that's a message to be spoken to the children of Israel, especially Judah which was the Tribe of David.

Where did I say "from Shem"? I clearly said IS Shem. If Melki-Tzedek is Shem the son of Noach, as most of Judaism believes, then you are calling Shem the son of Noach a Canaanite who offered his firstborn to Baal and, as Omniskeptical already pointed out, what you are doing is lashon hara at the very least.

daqq
August 1st, 2016, 01:48 PM
Your cult believes that John the Baptist was the preexistent one that created Israel by bringing them out of bondage in Egypt - that John the Baptist is the great "I AM".
If you want to promote your cult, then start an original post of your own, rather than trying to force your "John the Baptist" doctrine on my posts that have NOTHING to do with John the Baptist.
Since you say you "love the word of God", then it should be no problem for you to publish the Old Testament scriptures that teach of John the Baptist's preexistence.


Your posts from the thread below had everything to do with Yohanan the Immerser but you refuse to see it. Anyways, I need not start another thread when none of your kind have ever refuted this one which has been around long enough for anyone to have an opportunity to refute it if they so desired. As you can see it has not been done. For those interested this comes up from yet more places where those such as beameup have been shown time and time again how they misapply and misappropriate scripture redirecting everything according to the flesh mindset and the faulty eternal son doctrine. I never said anything about pre-existence in any of my statements. In fact it was clearly stated to beameup in one of the posts how Yeshua emphatically states that all the Prophets and the Torah prophesied until Yohanan. However beameup rejects the Testimony of Yeshua in favor of his own man-made doctrines handed down from carnal men.



Still rejecting the Testimony of Yeshua?

Take your pick from the T/R, W/H, or any other text:

Matthew 11:10 Textus Receptus
10 ουτος γαρ εστι περι ου γεγραπται ιδου εγω αποστελλω τον αγγελον μου προ προσωπου σου ος κατασκευασει την οδον σου εμπροσθεν σου

Matthew 11:10 Westcott-Hort
10 ουτος εστιν περι ου γεγραπται ιδου εγω αποστελλω τον αγγελον μου προ προσωπου σου ος κατασκευασει την οδον σου εμπροσθεν σου

Both the T/R and the W/H quote Exodus 23:20a WORD FOR WORD from the Septuagint:

Exodus 23:20 LXX-Septuagint
20 και ιδου εγω αποστελλω τον αγγελον μου προ προσωπου σου ινα φυλαξη σε εν τη οδω οπως εισαγαγη σε εις την γην ην ητοιμασα σοι

Matthew 11:10b -- "ιδου εγω αποστελλω τον αγγελον μου προ προσωπου σου"
Exodus 23:20a -- "ιδου εγω αποστελλω τον αγγελον μου προ προσωπου σου"

"ιδου εγω αποστελλω τον αγγελον μου προ προσωπου σου"
"Behold, I send My Messenger-Angel before your face"

Yeshua therefore clearly states that Yohanan EliYahu is the Malak of Exodus 23:20-23; and the Name of the Father is indeed in the name EliYahu, (El and Yah), and there is no other place where this clear emphatic statement quoted above may be found in the scripture. Those who say that this Matthew statement and its companion passages are quoted from Malachi 3:1 are liars, who cannot tell the difference between "μου" and "σου", "me" and "you", "my" and "thy", or "me" and "thee", and unfortunately for you that cancels out most every commentary of the so-called scholars I have ever read. Just because they all agree to blindly run toward the precipice all together does not make the herd correct. :)

EDIT - Addendum:

Malachi 3:1 KJV (Hebrew Text)
1 Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the LORD of hosts.

Malachi 3:1 Brenton English Translation (Greek Text)
1 Behold, I send forth my messenger, and he shall survey the way before me: and the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come into his temple, even the angel of the covenant, whom ye take pleasure in: behold, he is coming, saith the Lord Almighty.

Malachi 3:1 LXX-Septuagint
1 ιδου εγω εξαποστελλω τον αγγελον μου και επιβλεψεται οδον προ προσωπου μου και εξαιφνης ηξει εις τον ναον εαυτου κυριος ον υμεις ζητειτε και ο αγγελος της διαθηκης ον υμεις θελετε ιδου ερχεται λεγει κυριος παντοκρατωρ

Malachi 3:1a
1 ιδου εγω εξαποστελλω τον αγγελον μου και επιβλεψεται οδον προ προσωπου μου"

Exodus 23:20a -- "ιδου εγω αποστελλω τον αγγελον μου προ προσωπου σου"
Matthew 11:10b -- "ιδου εγω αποστελλω τον αγγελον μου προ προσωπου σου"

:sheep:


It is not hard to see it unless one does not want to see it.
Here it is again for you in plain simple English:

:readthis:

Matthew 11:10 KJV
10 For this is he, of whom it is written, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee.

Mark 1:2 KJV
2 As it is written in the prophets, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee.

Luke 7:27 KJV
27 This is he, of whom it is written, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee.

Exodus 23:20 KJV
20 Behold, I send an Angel before thee, to keep thee in the way, and to bring thee into the place which I have prepared.

Exodus 23:20 Septuagint (Brenton English Translation)
20 And, behold, I send my angel before thy face, that he may keep thee in the way, that he may bring thee into the land which I have prepared for thee.

Malachi 3:1 KJV
1 Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the LORD of hosts.

Malachi 3:1 Septuagint (Brenton English Translation)
1 Behold, I send forth my messenger, and he shall survey the way before me: and the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come into his temple, even the angel of the covenant, whom ye take pleasure in: behold, he is coming, saith the Lord Almighty.

The only thing you have shown to be easy is how easily you will fall down and worship man or angel without even knowing for sure what you worship. Therefore you show yourself worse off than the woman at the well; for when Yeshua told her the truth she believed him, but I have shown you his words here and you reject his words yet again while claiming that you worship him and not even knowing whether it is him or not in the passage you quote to make your case! Worse yet when you are shown the error of your way you claim to see! Therefore you remain blind just as the Pharisees whom you denounce as having been blind! :crackup:


Therefore within the context of Matthew 11:9-15 Yeshua emphatically states that Yohanan is the Malak of Exodus 23:20-23 because, according to the author of the text, Yeshua quotes Exodus 23:20a and even states, "IT IS WRITTEN", which you have plainly and openly denied by saying that it is found nowhere just because the truth does not suit your paradigm.

Matthew 11:9-15
9 But what went you out to see? A prophet? Yea, I say unto you, and exceedingly more than a prophet.
10 For this is he of whom it is written, Behold, I send My angel before your face, [Exodus 23:20a LXX] which shall prepare your way before you.
11 Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than Yohanan the Immerser: notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom of the heavens [the Son of man] is greater than he.
12 And from the days of Yohanan the Immerser until now the kingdom of the heavens suffers violence, and the violent take it by force:
13 for all the Prophets and the Torah prophesied until Yohanan.
14 And, if you will receive it, this is EliYahu that is about to come.
15 The one having ears to hear, let hear.

All the Prophets and the Torah prophesied until Yohanan, according to the Master, and Yohanan is the Malak-Messenger of Exodus 23:20-23 according to the Testimony of Yeshua: but you once again do not believe the Testimony of Yeshua, and therefore you have not the grace of Elohim upon you because the Testimony of Yeshua is the Spirit of Grace and you refuse to apply it to yourself and in your doctrine. Therefore the wrath of Elohim abides upon you because you do not believe the one whom the Father has sent. :)

Did you catch that final statement BM?

All the Prophets and the Torah prophesied until Yohanan, according to the Master, and Yohanan is the Malak-Messenger of Exodus 23:20-23 according to the Testimony of Yeshua: but you once again do not believe the Testimony of Yeshua, and therefore you have not the grace of Elohim upon you because the Testimony of Yeshua is the Spirit of Grace and you refuse to apply it to yourself and in your doctrine. Therefore the wrath of Elohim abides upon you because you do not believe the one whom the Father has sent. :)

daqq
August 1st, 2016, 02:28 PM
It's not quite that simple. Let's take a comprehensive look into the Old Testament:

Behold, I send an ANGEL before thee, to keep thee in the way, and to bring thee into the place which I have prepared. Beware of him, and obey his voice, provoke him not; for he will not pardon your transgressions: for MY NAME IS IN HIM. - Exodus 23:20-21


I noticed that you continually avoid the fact that an "Angel" accepts WORSHIP.
It is apparent that you do not take "the whole council of God", but instead
"pick-and-choose" which portions fit your Watchtower Society paradigm.
All heresies stem from eisegesis... "reading into the text what you want"
based on pre-conceived ideas. This is what those of "Judaism" have been doing since 70 A.D.

:mock:

You speak in opposition to the Testimony of Yeshua and therefore the spirit of your testimony is the spirit of antichrist, (for testimony is spirit). It has already been shown to you from the Testimony of Yeshua that the name of the Messenger is EliYahu, (Yohanan, if you will receive it), and therefore, indeed, the name of the Father is in him, (El and Yah, that is, EliYahu).

John 3:36
36 The one who is faithfully trusting into the Son has life aionion: but the one disbelieving the Son shall not see life; contrariwise, the wrath of Elohim remains-abides upon him.

Additionally you have no clue of the difference between bowing or prostrating as if to a king, (like king David), and true worship and reverence which are reserved only for the Father.