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Robert Pate
July 17th, 2015, 07:54 AM
It is our personal responsibility to find the truth and believe it.

If you find yourself in hell after the judgment don't blame God for it. It is not Gods responsibility to save you. He has done all that he can do to provide you with savation. He has given his only "Begotten Son" for your salvation. It is your responsibility to...
"Enter in at the strait gate" Matthew 7:13, 14. There are two ways for you to go, there is the strait gate which leads to eternal life and there is the broad way that leads to destruction. It is your personal resonsibility to seek out and find the strait gate that leads to eternal life. That is the purpose of this scripture. Jesus gives you a commandment, "Enter in at the strait gate".

The "strait gate" is Jesus Christ. Jesus said, "I am the way, the truth and the life: no man can come to the Father but by me, John 14:6. There, I have just told you the way to the strait gate. Why do you want to continue on the broad way that leads to destruction? The broadway is the way of man, it is the way of religion. The broad way is the way that seems right unto a man, but it is the way of death and destruction, Proverbs 14:12.

The reason that the "Broad Way" is broad is because there are "many there be that go that way". It has to be broad to accomodate the masses that have rejected the strait gate and are continuing on the broad way that leads to death and destruction. If I was driving down the street and I saw that your house was on fire I would stop and bang on your door and tell you that your house was on fire. I am banging on your door NOW to tell you that if you are not totally and completely trusting in Jesus Christ to save you, YOUR HOUSE IS ON FIRE.

daqq
July 17th, 2015, 08:33 AM
Unless YOU believe that I am He (God) YOU Will Die in YOUR Sins, John 8:24
It is our personal responsibility to find the truth and believe it.

If you find yourself in hell after the judgment don't blame God for it. It is not Gods responsibility to save you. He has done all that he can do to provide you with savation. He has given his only "Begotten Son" for your salvation. It is your responsibility to...
"Enter in at the strait gate" Matthew 7:13, 14. There are two ways for you to go, there is the strait gate which leads to eternal life and there is the broad way that leads to destruction. It is your personal resonsibility to seek out and find the strait gate that leads to eternal life. That is the purpose of this scripture. Jesus gives you a commandment, "Enter in at the strait gate".

The "strait gate" is Jesus Christ. Jesus said, "I am the way, the truth and the life: no man can come to the Father but by me, John 14:6. There, I have just told you the way to the strait gate. Why do you want to continue on the broad way that leads to destruction? The broadway is the way of man, it is the way of religion. The broad way is the way that seems right unto a man, but it is the way of death and destruction, Proverbs 14:12.

The reason that the "Broad Way" is broad is because there are "many there be that go that way". It has to be broad to accomodate the masses that have rejected the strait gate and are continuing on the broad way that leads to death and destruction. If I was driving down the street and I saw that your house was on fire I would stop and bang on your door and tell you that your house was on fire. I am banging on your door NOW to tell you that if you are not totally and completely trusting in Jesus Christ to save you, YOUR HOUSE IS ON FIRE.

WHO told you to insert "(God)" into John 8:24 in your thread title? :crackup:
HOW are you so sure that you yourself are not on the wide road that leads to destruction?

The Scripture says:

Psalm 8:5-6
4. What is man, that thou art mindful of him? and the son of man, that thou visitest him?
5. For thou hast made him a little lower than Elohim, and hast crowned him with glory and honour.

Hebrews 2:6-12
6. But one in a certain place testified, saying, What is man, that thou art mindful of him? or the son of man, that thou visitest him?
7. Thou madest him a little lower than Elohim; thou crownedst him with glory and honour, and didst set him over the works of thy hands:
8. Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him.
9. But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than Elohim for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of Elohim should taste death for every man.
10. For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the Captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.
11. For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren,
12. Saying, I will declare thy name unto my brethren, in the midst of the congregation will I sing praise unto thee.

Psalm 22:18-25 KJV-RN
18. They part my garments among them, and cast lots upon my vesture.
19. But be not thou far from me, O YHWH: O my strength, haste thee to help me.
20. Deliver my soul from the sword; my darling from the power of the dog.
21. Save me from the lion's mouth: for thou hast heard me from the horns of the unicorns.
22. I will declare thy name unto my brethren: in the midst of the congregation will I praise thee.
23. Ye that fear YHWH, praise him; all ye the seed of Jacob, glorify him; and fear him, all ye the seed of Israel.
24. For he hath not despised nor abhorred the affliction of the afflicted; neither hath he hid his face from him; but when he cried unto him, he heard.
25. My praise shall be of thee in the great congregation: I will pay my vows before them that fear him.


:sheep:

Robert Pate
July 17th, 2015, 10:02 AM
WHO told you to insert "(God)" into John 8:24 in your thread title? :crackup:
HOW are you so sure that you yourself are not on the wide road that leads to destruction?

The Scripture says:

Psalm 8:5-6
4. What is man, that thou art mindful of him? and the son of man, that thou visitest him?
5. For thou hast made him a little lower than Elohim, and hast crowned him with glory and honour.

Hebrews 2:6-12
6. But one in a certain place testified, saying, What is man, that thou art mindful of him? or the son of man, that thou visitest him?
7. Thou madest him a little lower than Elohim; thou crownedst him with glory and honour, and didst set him over the works of thy hands:
8. Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him.
9. But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than Elohim for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of Elohim should taste death for every man.
10. For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the Captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.
11. For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren,
12. Saying, I will declare thy name unto my brethren, in the midst of the congregation will I sing praise unto thee.

Psalm 22:18-25 KJV-RN
18. They part my garments among them, and cast lots upon my vesture.
19. But be not thou far from me, O YHWH: O my strength, haste thee to help me.
20. Deliver my soul from the sword; my darling from the power of the dog.
21. Save me from the lion's mouth: for thou hast heard me from the horns of the unicorns.
22. I will declare thy name unto my brethren: in the midst of the congregation will I praise thee.
23. Ye that fear YHWH, praise him; all ye the seed of Jacob, glorify him; and fear him, all ye the seed of Israel.
24. For he hath not despised nor abhorred the affliction of the afflicted; neither hath he hid his face from him; but when he cried unto him, he heard.
25. My praise shall be of thee in the great congregation: I will pay my vows before them that fear him.


:sheep:


The reason that I inserted God into that scripture is because the bible teaches that Jesus is God. If you don't believe that Jesus is God that is your problem

"For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word (Jesus) and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one" 1 John 5:7.

"For in him dwells all the fullness of the GODHEAD bodily" Colossians 2:9.

kayaker
July 18th, 2015, 11:16 PM
Unless YOU believe that I am He (God) YOU Will Die in YOUR Sins, John 8:24

Sorry Robert... but, precisely who was Jesus speaking to when He spoke those words?

beloved57
July 19th, 2015, 12:29 AM
Those Jesus Christ Lived and died for, He kept the Law for, in doing so He believed in God for them, For Belief and or Faith in God is necessary to in Obeying God's Law Matt 23:23

23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

And Jesus Christ did everything necessary, required that ought to have done to keep the Law for them !

Robert Pate
July 19th, 2015, 06:01 AM
Those Jesus Christ Lived and died for, He kept the Law for, in doing so He believed in God for them, For Belief and or Faith in God is necessary to in Obeying God's Law Matt 23:23

23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

And Jesus Christ did everything necessary, required that ought to have done to keep the Law for them !


Jesus fulfills the law for us.

But faith and believing is something that we must do.

"Whosoever that shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved" Romans 10:13.

beloved57
July 19th, 2015, 06:45 AM
Jesus fulfills the law for us.

But faith and believing is something that we must do.

"Whosoever that shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved" Romans 10:13.

Faith is required to keep the Law Matt 23:23, you saying that Christ did not have Faith in God while obeying the Law?

oatmeal
July 19th, 2015, 07:10 AM
It is our personal responsibility to find the truth and believe it.

That is true.

However, John 8:24 reads as follows:

"I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins"

Robert Pate
July 19th, 2015, 07:11 AM
Unless YOU believe that I am He (God) YOU Will Die in YOUR Sins, John 8:24

Sorry Robert... but, precisely who was Jesus speaking to when He spoke those words?

It doesn't say.

kayaker
July 19th, 2015, 07:14 AM
So, we're down to Jesus speaking specifically to those scribes and Pharisees. Thank you B57. They seemed to have a real problem with Jesus in the NT. Do you think folk here on TOL are scribes and Pharisees, Robert? You seem to be painting with a rather large brush in your OP, don't you think? Jesus was talking to those scribes and Pharisees denying Jesus' divine origin/Paternity (John 8:13 KJV, John 8:19 KJV), and plotting Jesus' crucifixion (John 8:28 KJV, John 8:37 KJV). And, you Robert, put folk on TOL into that same category as those scribes and Pharisees in you OP statement:


Unless YOU believe that I am He (God) YOU Will Die in YOUR Sins, John 8:24

Rather broad accusation, don't you think? Furthermore, those scribes and Pharisees plotting Jesus' crucifixion wanted Jesus crucified because THEY said Jesus was God, isn't that what you're saying, Robert? Jesus is God?


John 10:31, 32, 33, KJV "Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him. 32) Jesus answered them, Many good works have I showed you from my Father; for which of those works to ye stone me? 33) The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God."

Did Jesus make Himself God, Robert? Jesus continued:


John 10:34 KJV "Jesus answered them, Is it not written in you law, I said, Ye are gods?

So, it wasn't Jesus who was God. According to Jesus' response, those who were plotting His crucifixion were gods. Where in the Books of Moses were 'they' referred to as gods, Robert? Jesus continued:


John 10:35 KJV "If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;

Who was 'he' in "If he called them gods...", Robert? Where in the Books of Moses were 'they' called gods? Who was 'he' that called them gods in the OT? Jesus continued:


John 10:36 KJV "Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the son of God?"

So, Jesus said the FATHER sanctified Him, and SENT Him into the world. Those scribes and Pharisees, seeking Jesus' death, said Jesus made Himself God. You're saying Jesus made Himself God. Aren't you taking the same position as those scribes and Pharisees seeking Jesus' crucifixion, Robert? Jesus said somewhere in OT Scripture 'they' were gods. And Jesus concluded His defense that He said He was the "son of God." To sum this up:

Those scribes and Pharisees said Jesus made Himself out to be God. Jesus said they were gods. And Jesus said He was the son of God.

Yours is a pretty haughty position accusing virtually everyone but yourself with your opening OP. Do you know good from evil, Robert:


Genesis 3:4, 5, KJV "And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die: 5) For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil."

Didn't Jesus say those scribes and Pharisees were gods as mentioned in the OT?

Well, it just sounds to me that you've taken the same position as those conspiring to kill Jesus. They said Jesus made Himself out to be God, also. While Jesus said they were gods, and He was the Son of God. That's pretty interesting.

But, getting back to my specific question... who were those scribes and Pharisees seeking Jesus' crucifixion in John 8 where you took John 8:24 out of context? Those scribes and Pharisees said they were "Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man" (John 8:33 KJV). I don't suppose it occurred to you those scribes and Pharisees seeking Jesus' crucifixion were evidently not Israelites who HAD been in bondage in Egypt. That's pretty interesting, also.

So, in other words Robert... I seem to get the impression you really don't know who Jesus was talking to in your OP. B57 got them narrowed down to scribes and Pharisees. And, there seems to be a bit more definition laying on the table, here. So, those instigators of Jesus' crucifixion, who said Jesus was God, were Abraham's seed, affirmed by Jesus in John 8:37 KJV... but, they weren't "Abraham's children" (John 8:39 KJV). Maybe I'm splitting hairs just a bit, but didn't Paul hint around at this in Romans 9:6, 7, 8? Sure Robert, you've taken John 8:24 KJV out of context:


Unless YOU believe that I am He (God) YOU Will Die in YOUR Sins, John 8:24

Those Jesus was speaking to in that verse, instigating His death (John 8:28 KJV, John 8:37 KJV, John 10:31 KJV, John 10:32 KJV), said Jesus was God (John 10:33 KJV), just like you're saying. Quite interesting!


kayaker

Robert Pate
July 19th, 2015, 08:54 AM
So, we're down to Jesus speaking specifically to those scribes and Pharisees. Thank you B57. They seemed to have a real problem with Jesus in the NT. Do you think folk here on TOL are scribes and Pharisees, Robert? You seem to be painting with a rather large brush in your OP, don't you think? Jesus was talking to those scribes and Pharisees denying Jesus' divine origin/Paternity (John 8:13 KJV, John 8:19 KJV), and plotting Jesus' crucifixion (John 8:28 KJV, John 8:37 KJV). And, you Robert, put folk on TOL into that same category as those scribes and Pharisees in you OP statement:



Rather broad accusation, don't you think? Furthermore, those scribes and Pharisees plotting Jesus' crucifixion wanted Jesus crucified because THEY said Jesus was God, isn't that what you're saying, Robert? Jesus is God?


John 10:31, 32, 33, KJV "Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him. 32) Jesus answered them, Many good works have I showed you from my Father; for which of those works to ye stone me? 33) The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God."

Did Jesus make Himself God, Robert? Jesus continued:


John 10:34 KJV "Jesus answered them, Is it not written in you law, I said, Ye are gods?

So, it wasn't Jesus who was God. According to Jesus' response, those who were plotting His crucifixion were gods. Where in the Books of Moses were 'they' referred to as gods, Robert? Jesus continued:


John 10:35 KJV "If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;

Who was 'he' in "If he called them gods...", Robert? Where in the Books of Moses were 'they' called gods? Who was 'he' that called them gods in the OT? Jesus continued:


John 10:36 KJV "Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the son of God?"

So, Jesus said the FATHER sanctified Him, and SENT Him into the world. Those scribes and Pharisees, seeking Jesus' death, said Jesus made Himself God. You're saying Jesus made Himself God. Aren't you taking the same position as those scribes and Pharisees seeking Jesus' crucifixion, Robert? Jesus said somewhere in OT Scripture 'they' were gods. And Jesus concluded His defense that He said He was the "son of God." To sum this up:

Those scribes and Pharisees said Jesus made Himself out to be God. Jesus said they were gods. And Jesus said He was the son of God.

Yours is a pretty haughty position accusing virtually everyone but yourself with your opening OP. Do you know good from evil, Robert:


Genesis 3:4, 5, KJV "And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die: 5) For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil."

Didn't Jesus say those scribes and Pharisees were gods as mentioned in the OT?

Well, it just sounds to me that you've taken the same position as those conspiring to kill Jesus. They said Jesus made Himself out to be God, also. While Jesus said they were gods, and He was the Son of God. That's pretty interesting.

But, getting back to my specific question... who were those scribes and Pharisees seeking Jesus' crucifixion in John 8 where you took John 8:24 out of context? Those scribes and Pharisees said they were "Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man" (John 8:33 KJV). I don't suppose it occurred to you those scribes and Pharisees seeking Jesus' crucifixion were evidently not Israelites who HAD been in bondage in Egypt. That's pretty interesting, also.

So, in other words Robert... I seem to get the impression you really don't know who Jesus was talking to in your OP. B57 got them narrowed down to scribes and Pharisees. And, there seems to be a bit more definition laying on the table, here. So, those instigators of Jesus' crucifixion, who said Jesus was God, were Abraham's seed, affirmed by Jesus in John 8:37 KJV... but, they weren't "Abraham's children" (John 8:39 KJV). Maybe I'm splitting hairs just a bit, but didn't Paul hint around at this in Romans 9:6, 7, 8? Sure Robert, you've taken John 8:24 KJV out of context:



Those Jesus was speaking to in that verse, instigating His death (John 8:28 KJV, John 8:37 KJV, John 10:31 KJV, John 10:32 KJV), said Jesus was God (John 10:33 KJV), just like you're saying. Quite interesting!


kayaker


The Bible teaches that Jesus is God, John 10:30.

kayaker
July 19th, 2015, 10:09 AM
The Bible teaches that Jesus is God, John 10:30.

And, after that verse, which you again take out of context, those seeking His death (John 10:31 KJV) said Jesus "being a man, makest thyself God" (John 10:32 KJV). Your same position, Robert. Jesus refuted their notion, and yours, stating they were gods (John 8:34 KJV), and Jesus is the "son of God" (John 10:36 KJV).

Possibly you don't grasp the Jesus' notion in John 10:30 KJV. The FATHER gave His sheep to Jesus (John 10:27 KJV, John 10:28 KJV). Jesus said in v. 29, "My FATHER, which gave them to ME, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand" (John 10:29 KJV). THEREFORE, neither are God's sheep able to be plucked out of JESUS' hand: "My Father and I are one" (John 10:30 KJV) as in ONE shepherd, Robert. God the Father, Jesus the son of God (John 10:36 KJV), ONE shepherd. Pretty simple, actually.

kayaker

Squeaky
July 19th, 2015, 10:17 AM
Matt 7:12-14
12 "Therefore, whatever you want men to do to you, do also to them, for this is the Law and the Prophets.
13 "Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it.
14 "Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it.
(NKJ)

John 6:63
63 "It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life.
(NKJ)

Squeaky
July 19th, 2015, 10:23 AM
John 7:38-41
38 "He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water."
39 But this He spoke concerning the Spirit, whom those believing in Him would receive; for the Holy Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.
40 Therefore many from the crowd, when they heard this saying, said, "Truly this is the Prophet."
41 Others said, "This is the Christ." But some said, "Will the Christ come out of Galilee?
(NKJ)

John 8:23-24
23 And He said to them, "You are from beneath; I am from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world.
24 "Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for if you do not believe that I am He, you will die in your sins."
(NKJ)

John 8:28-29
28 Then Jesus said to them, "When you lift up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am He, and that I do nothing of Myself; but as My Father taught Me, I speak these things.
29 "And He who sent Me is with Me. The Father has not left Me alone, for I always do those things that please Him."
(NKJ)

Nanja
July 19th, 2015, 10:52 AM
The truth is this:

Salvation was never an offer to all humanity but was provided exclusively for
a Chosen People Is. 45:17, not by any works they do, but by God's Grace exclusively.

2 Tim. 1:9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works,
but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began.

Just as in Adam, their natural head, all the Elect were made sinners, so also in Christ Jesus, their Covenant Head,
all His Sons chosen in Him Eph. 1:4-5, they were made Righteous by His Obedience to God's Commandments
in their behalf Rom. 5:19. Christ's Righteousness is charged to them, even before they believed.

The whole matter of Salvation was settled by God in Eternity Heb. 7:22; Phil. 1:29; John 3:18.

~~~~~

Robert Pate
July 19th, 2015, 11:43 AM
And, after that verse, which you again take out of context, those seeking His death (John 10:31 KJV) said Jesus "being a man, makest thyself God" (John 10:32 KJV). Your same position, Robert. Jesus refuted their notion, and yours, stating they were gods (John 8:34 KJV), and Jesus is the "son of God" (John 10:36 KJV).

Possibly you don't grasp the Jesus' notion in John 10:30 KJV. The FATHER gave His sheep to Jesus (John 10:27 KJV, John 10:28 KJV). Jesus said in v. 29, "My FATHER, which gave them to ME, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand" (John 10:29 KJV). THEREFORE, neither are God's sheep able to be plucked out of JESUS' hand: "My Father and I are one" (John 10:30 KJV) as in ONE shepherd, Robert. God the Father, Jesus the son of God (John 10:36 KJV), ONE shepherd. Pretty simple, actually.

kayaker


Jesus is God. He is the second person of the Godhead.

"For there are THREE that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word (Jesus) and the Holy Spirit: AND THESE THREE ARE ONE" 1 John 5:7.

No one can really understand how God can be three persons in one. It is beyond human comprehension.

"Who is the image of the invisible God, the first born of every creature. For by him were all things created, that are in heaven and that are in the earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions or principalities or powers: all things were created by him and for him. And he is before all things, and by him all things consist" Colossians 1:15, 16, 17.

You will not go wrong if you believe that Jesus is God. But you will go wrong if you believe that he is not.

daqq
July 19th, 2015, 12:33 PM
So, we're down to Jesus speaking specifically to those scribes and Pharisees. Thank you B57. They seemed to have a real problem with Jesus in the NT. Do you think folk here on TOL are scribes and Pharisees, Robert? You seem to be painting with a rather large brush in your OP, don't you think? Jesus was talking to those scribes and Pharisees denying Jesus' divine origin/Paternity (John 8:13 KJV, John 8:19 KJV), and plotting Jesus' crucifixion (John 8:28 KJV, John 8:37 KJV). And, you Robert, put folk on TOL into that same category as those scribes and Pharisees in you OP statement:



Rather broad accusation, don't you think? Furthermore, those scribes and Pharisees plotting Jesus' crucifixion wanted Jesus crucified because THEY said Jesus was God, isn't that what you're saying, Robert? Jesus is God?

John 10:31, 32, 33, KJV "Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him. 32) Jesus answered them, Many good works have I showed you from my Father; for which of those works to ye stone me? 33) The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God."Did Jesus make Himself God, Robert? Jesus continued:

John 10:34 KJV "Jesus answered them, Is it not written in you law, I said, Ye are gods?So, it wasn't Jesus who was God. According to Jesus' response, those who were plotting His crucifixion were gods. Where in the Books of Moses were 'they' referred to as gods, Robert? Jesus continued:

John 10:35 KJV "If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;Who was 'he' in "If he called them gods...", Robert? Where in the Books of Moses were 'they' called gods? Who was 'he' that called them gods in the OT? Jesus continued:

John 10:36 KJV "Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the son of God?"So, Jesus said the FATHER sanctified Him, and SENT Him into the world. Those scribes and Pharisees, seeking Jesus' death, said Jesus made Himself God. You're saying Jesus made Himself God. Aren't you taking the same position as those scribes and Pharisees seeking Jesus' crucifixion, Robert? Jesus said somewhere in OT Scripture 'they' were gods. And Jesus concluded His defense that He said He was the "son of God." To sum this up:

Those scribes and Pharisees said Jesus made Himself out to be God. Jesus said they were gods. And Jesus said He was the son of God.

Yours is a pretty haughty position accusing virtually everyone but yourself with your opening OP. Do you know good from evil, Robert:

Genesis 3:4, 5, KJV "And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die: 5) For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil."Didn't Jesus say those scribes and Pharisees were gods as mentioned in the OT?

Well, it just sounds to me that you've taken the same position as those conspiring to kill Jesus. They said Jesus made Himself out to be God, also. While Jesus said they were gods, and He was the Son of God. That's pretty interesting.

But, getting back to my specific question... who were those scribes and Pharisees seeking Jesus' crucifixion in John 8 where you took John 8:24 out of context? Those scribes and Pharisees said they were "Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man" (John 8:33 KJV). I don't suppose it occurred to you those scribes and Pharisees seeking Jesus' crucifixion were evidently not Israelites who HAD been in bondage in Egypt. That's pretty interesting, also.

So, in other words Robert... I seem to get the impression you really don't know who Jesus was talking to in your OP. B57 got them narrowed down to scribes and Pharisees. And, there seems to be a bit more definition laying on the table, here. So, those instigators of Jesus' crucifixion, who said Jesus was God, were Abraham's seed, affirmed by Jesus in John 8:37 KJV... but, they weren't "Abraham's children" (John 8:39 KJV). Maybe I'm splitting hairs just a bit, but didn't Paul hint around at this in Romans 9:6, 7, 8? Sure Robert, you've taken John 8:24 KJV out of context:



Those Jesus was speaking to in that verse, instigating His death (John 8:28 KJV, John 8:37 KJV, John 10:31 KJV, John 10:32 KJV), said Jesus was God (John 10:33 KJV), just like you're saying. Quite interesting!


kayaker


And, after that verse, which you again take out of context, those seeking His death (John 10:31 KJV) said Jesus "being a man, makest thyself God" (John 10:32 KJV). Your same position, Robert. Jesus refuted their notion, and yours, stating they were gods (John 8:34 KJV), and Jesus is the "son of God" (John 10:36 KJV).

Possibly you don't grasp the Jesus' notion in John 10:30 KJV. The FATHER gave His sheep to Jesus (John 10:27 KJV, John 10:28 KJV). Jesus said in v. 29, "My FATHER, which gave them to ME, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand" (John 10:29 KJV). THEREFORE, neither are God's sheep able to be plucked out of JESUS' hand: "My Father and I are one" (John 10:30 KJV) as in ONE shepherd, Robert. God the Father, Jesus the son of God (John 10:36 KJV), ONE shepherd. Pretty simple, actually.

kayaker

:up: :thumb:

Yes, pretty interesting . . . :chuckle:

kayaker
July 19th, 2015, 02:24 PM
Jesus is God. He is the second person of the Godhead.

"For there are THREE that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word (Jesus) and the Holy Spirit: AND THESE THREE ARE ONE" 1 John 5:7.

No one can really understand how God can be three persons in one. It is beyond human comprehension.

"Who is the image of the invisible God, the first born of every creature. For by him were all things created, that are in heaven and that are in the earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions or principalities or powers: all things were created by him and for him. And he is before all things, and by him all things consist" Colossians 1:15, 16, 17.

You will not go wrong if you believe that Jesus is God. But you will go wrong if you believe that he is not.

You quoted John 10:30 KJV as corroborating the notion Jesus and God are one, as of the same entity. Sorry, Robert... in context, Jesus and God are ONE shepherd in context.

Now, take a listen to another verse you've taken out of context:


"For there are THREE that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word (Jesus) and the Holy Spirit: AND THESE THREE ARE ONE" 1 John 5:7.

One what, Robert?


1John 5:1-8, KJV "Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him. 2) By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments. 3) For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous. 4) For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.

5) Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God? 6) This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth. 7) For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. 8) And there are three that bear witness in earth, the spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one."

The three bear record to what, Robert? TRUTH. Three witnesses to ONE TRUTH. What is the TRUTH, Robert? Please consider John 14:16 KJV, John 14:17 KJV, John 14:23 KJV, John 14:26 KJV. The Holy Spirit is One of these three witnesses. Jesus is one witness, and God is one witness. All three witnesses agree to ONE truth: Jesus is THE Son of God.

Jesus' divine origin/Paternity was challenged in John 8:13 KJV, and John 8:19 KJV after Jesus said He is the Light of the World (John 8:12 KJV). Jesus said He and His Father were TWO witnesses to Jesus' divine Paternity in John 8:18 KJV. Few even grasp the notion witnesses testify, Robert. So, where are the TWO testimonies of these TWO divine witnesses during that dialogue?

Please allow me to cut the the chase here, Robert: Jesus' testimony to His divine origin is found several verses later in John 8:38 KJV. What specifically and succinctly did Jesus SEE WITH HIS FATHER (two entities) that corroborated Jesus' divine origin? God's testimony to Jesus' divine origin, the second of two testimonies, is found in John 8:40 KJV. What specific and succinct truth did Jesus HEAR FROM HIS FATHER (two entities) that even Abraham didn't hear? TWO testimonies to ONE truth: Jesus' divine origin... no if ands or buts about it. Where's the third witness, Robert? Please allow me to direct your attention again to John 14:26 KJV.

Those TWO testimonies of those TWO witnesses are undiscerned without the Holy Spirit (John 14:26 KJV) being the third witness. Such remains a mystery asking around on TOL. Those THREE witnesses then complete the equation that three witnesses to Jesus' origin constitute ONE truth: Jesus is irrefutably THE begotten Son of God. In fact, Jesus' believers during that dialogue (John 8:30 KJV) were instructed to listen along, "continue in my word" (John 8:31 KJV), and His believers SHALL be "converted" (Matthew 13:15 KJV) and become Jesus' "disciples indeed" by knowing "the truth, and the truth shall make you free" (John 8:32 KJV).

Jesus' testimony (John 8:38 KJV) was one witness to the truth of Jesus' divine origin. God's testimony (John 8:40 KJV) was another witness to the truth of Jesus' divine origin. So, what explicitly and succinctly did Jesus SEE WITH GOD, and HEAR FROM GOD, that corroborated Jesus' utterly and irrefutably divine origin? Sounds like a job for the third witness, the Holy Spirit of Truth. If you don't know the explicit and succinct details of these two testimonies (John 8:38 KJV, and John 8:40 KJV), then get in line, friend...

kayaker

kayaker
July 19th, 2015, 02:54 PM
FWIW, Robert...

I've already asked the Catholics. Utterly clueless. Maybe Nanja and B57, being Calvinists, if I recall correctly, can render the explicit and succinct details of these two Divine testimonies: John 8:38 KJV, John 8:40 KJV. Seems like this sorta levels the playing field, don't you think? I've asked this of probably 5-6 MDIv/PhD theologians... only two said they see the quandary, being the proverbial 'door' btw... and they shared in their humility they didn't know how to open the door, either. So, please don't think I'm singling your out, Robert. You're in good company despite taking the same position as those who conspired the crucifixion agreeing with you that Jesus said He is God, contrary to His argument in John 10:30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36.

kayaker

Robert Pate
July 20th, 2015, 04:49 AM
FWIW, Robert...

I've already asked the Catholics. Utterly clueless. Maybe Nanja and B57, being Calvinists, if I recall correctly, can render the explicit and succinct details of these two Divine testimonies: John 8:38 KJV, John 8:40 KJV. Seems like this sorta levels the playing field, don't you think? I've asked this of probably 5-6 MDIv/PhD theologians... only two said they see the quandary, being the proverbial 'door' btw... and they shared in their humility they didn't know how to open the door, either. So, please don't think I'm singling your out, Robert. You're in good company despite taking the same position as those who conspired the crucifixion agreeing with you that Jesus said He is God, contrary to His argument in John 10:30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36.

kayaker



Jesus is either God or he is a man. I believe that he is both.

If he is just a man, then that means that he was born after Adam and he is a sinner. If he was a sinner it would not be possible for him to atone for the sins of the world. God requires a perfect sacrifice for the sins of humanity.

Jesus had to be both God and man to save us. Jesus is God's new creation and Gods new humanity. Only God can raise people from the dead. Only God can turn water into wine.

"Unless you believe that he is who he claims to be, you will die in your sins".

We are saved by faith in Christ. You can't have faith in just a man.

CherubRam
July 20th, 2015, 07:33 AM
The reason that I inserted God into that scripture is because the bible teaches that Jesus is God. If you don't believe that Jesus is God that is your problem

"For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word (Jesus) and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one" 1 John 5:7.

"For in him dwells all the fullness of the GODHEAD bodily" Colossians 2:9.

Yahshua did not say he was God, he said he was a (elohiym / god) from heaven.

John 10:33-34
33"We are not stoning you for any of these," replied the Jews, "but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be [a god] God."
34 Yashua answered them, "Is it not written in your Law, 'I have said you are gods'? 35If he called them 'gods,' to whom the word of God came—and the Scripture cannot be broken— 36what about the one whom the Father set apart as his very own and sent into the world? Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said, 'I am God's Son'?

Yahshua was asked if he was the Messiah, he was not asked if he was God. It has always been understood that the Messiah would be a god from Heaven.

John 10:24. The Jews who were there gathered around him, asking, “How long will you keep us in suspense, if you’re the Messiah, tell us plainly?”

Godhead is a recent made up term and is not biblical.

NIV
1 John 5:6 This is the one who came by water and blood—Jesus Christ. He did not come by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit who testifies, because the Spirit is the truth. 7 For there are three that testify: 8 the[a] Spirit, the water and the blood; and the three are in agreement. 9 We accept human testimony, but God’s testimony is greater because it is the testimony of God, which he has given about his Son. 10 Whoever believes in the Son of God accepts this testimony.

Footnotes:
a.1 John 5:8 Late manuscripts of the Vulgate testify in heaven: the Father, the Word and the Holy Spirit, and these three are one. 8 And there are three that testify on earth: the (not found in any Greek manuscript before the fourteenth century)

Do you know the difference between the truth and a lie?

Ben Masada
July 20th, 2015, 09:10 AM
Then we have in verse 31, I mean John 8:31, that Jesus was talking to the Jews who had believed in him. Then to these Jews who had believed in him he said, "You are children of the Devil." Does it make any sense to you? To me it doesn't. How could Jesus call the Jews who had believed in him children of the Devil? (John 8:44)That's why those Jews who had believed in Jesus got upset and revealed a secret that Jesus had been born out of fornication. (John 8:41) In fact, Josephus in his book "Wars of the Jews" mentions that in the First Century rapes of Jewish young ladies by the Romans in Israel was catastrophic. Thousands of Jewish children had been born out of fornication in Israel.

Robert Pate
July 20th, 2015, 09:17 AM
Then we have in verse 31, I mean John 8:31, that Jesus was talking to the Jews who had believed in him. Then to these Jews who had believed in him he said, "You are children of the Devil." Does it make any sense to you? To me it doesn't. How could Jesus call the Jews who had believed in him children of the Devil? (John 8:44)That's why those Jews who had believed in Jesus got upset and revealed a secret that Jesus had been born out of fornication. (John 8:41) In fact, Josephus in his book "Wars of the Jews" mentions that in the First Century rapes of Jewish young ladies by the Romans in Israel was catastrophic. Thousands of Jewish children had been born out of fornication in Israel.


You are desperate to believe lies and fairy tales.

Someday you will have to bow before him, Philippians 2:10, 11,

Grosnick Marowbe
July 20th, 2015, 09:20 AM
It is our personal responsibility to find the truth and believe it.

If you find yourself in hell after the judgment don't blame God for it. It is not Gods responsibility to save you. He has done all that he can do to provide you with savation. He has given his only "Begotten Son" for your salvation. It is your responsibility to...
"Enter in at the strait gate" Matthew 7:13, 14. There are two ways for you to go, there is the strait gate which leads to eternal life and there is the broad way that leads to destruction. It is your personal resonsibility to seek out and find the strait gate that leads to eternal life. That is the purpose of this scripture. Jesus gives you a commandment, "Enter in at the strait gate".

The "strait gate" is Jesus Christ. Jesus said, "I am the way, the truth and the life: no man can come to the Father but by me, John 14:6. There, I have just told you the way to the strait gate. Why do you want to continue on the broad way that leads to destruction? The broadway is the way of man, it is the way of religion. The broad way is the way that seems right unto a man, but it is the way of death and destruction, Proverbs 14:12.

The reason that the "Broad Way" is broad is because there are "many there be that go that way". It has to be broad to accomodate the masses that have rejected the strait gate and are continuing on the broad way that leads to death and destruction. If I was driving down the street and I saw that your house was on fire I would stop and bang on your door and tell you that your house was on fire. I am banging on your door NOW to tell you that if you are not totally and completely trusting in Jesus Christ to save you, YOUR HOUSE IS ON FIRE.

"Good guy list"

Ben Masada
July 20th, 2015, 09:41 AM
[quote]Jesus is either God or he is a man. I believe that he is both.

And I believe he is neither. Neither God nor a man any more. He is dead. About 2,000 years already. Since he was a Jew, he has never been raised from the grave.


If he is just a man, then that means that he was born after Adam and he is a sinner. If he was a sinner it would not be possible for him to atone for the sins of the world. God requires a perfect sacrifice for the sins of humanity.

He was but not just a man but a Jewish man whose Faith was Judaism.


Jesus had to be both God and man to save us. Jesus is God's new creation and Gods new humanity. Only God can raise people from the dead. Only God can turn water into wine.

God can do any thing and every thing He wants but one, the thing you wish He did or should have done. What saves us is not another man but obedience to God's Law. (Isa. 1:18,19) According to the Prophets no one can save another but himself through the use of his or her freewill to obey God's Word. (Jer. 31:30; Eze. 18:20)


"Unless you believe that he is who he claims to be, you will die in your sins".

Jesus claimed to be a simple "son of man" which mean a mortal man. Any other claim was according to the gospel of Paul which had nothing with the gospel of Jesus.


We are saved by faith in Christ. You can't have faith in just a man.

We are saved by obedience of God's Law. Jesus himself, with his parable of the Richman and Lazarus, implied that the only way to escape hell-fire is by listening to "Moses" aka the Law. (Luke 16:31)

CherubRam
July 20th, 2015, 12:33 PM
Then we have in verse 31, I mean John 8:31, that Jesus was talking to the Jews who had believed in him. Then to these Jews who had believed in him he said, "You are children of the Devil." Does it make any sense to you? To me it doesn't. How could Jesus call the Jews who had believed in him children of the Devil? (John 8:44)That's why those Jews who had believed in Jesus got upset and revealed a secret that Jesus had been born out of fornication. (John 8:41) In fact, Josephus in his book "Wars of the Jews" mentions that in the First Century rapes of Jewish young ladies by the Romans in Israel was catastrophic. Thousands of Jewish children had been born out of fornication in Israel.
You are grabbing at straws Ben. The FIRST coming of the Messiah is that of a suffering Messiah, a message many Jews did not want to hear. It is understood that the Messiah is a (elohiym / god) from heaven. Some of the Jews present were looking for a way to murder the Messiah.

A Body You Prepared For Me

Psalm 40:6 Some Hebrew and Septuagint manuscripts: “but a body you have prepared for me…”

Hebrews 10: 5 Therefore, when Christ came into the world, he said:
“Sacrifice and offering you did not desire,
but a body you prepared for me;

Micah 5:2
“But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, though you are small among the clans of Judah, out of you will come for me one who will be ruler over Israel, whose origins are from of old, from ancient times.”
A body you have prepared for me.

Psalm 40 commentary.
N.I.V. foot note for Psalms 40:6 reads: “Hebrew; Septuagint: but a body you have prepared for me. (See also Symmachus and Theodotion)” End of quote. Symmachus the Ebonite was a late 2nd century author of one of the Greek versions of the Old Testament.

Theodotion 200 A.D.
Theodotion was a Jewish scholar, perhaps working in Ephesus, who translated the Hebrew Bible into Greek. Whether he was revising the Septuagint, or was working from Hebrew manuscripts that represented a parallel tradition that has not survived, and is debated. His finished version, which filled some lacunae in the Septuagint version of the Book of Jeremiah and Book of Job, formed one column in Origen's Hexapla. (The Hexapla presented six Hebrew and Greek texts side-by-side: two Greek versions, by Aquila of Sinope and Symmachus, preceding the Septuagint, and Theodotian's version following it, apparently reflecting a contemporary understanding of their historical sequence.

Theodotion's translation was so widely copied in the Early Christian church, that it superseded the Septuagint Book of Daniel. Jerome, in his preface to Daniel records the rejection of the Septuagint version in Christian usage, asserting that its translation was very faulty.

Although Theodotion was Anti-Christ, it may not have occurred to him to change the Hebrew Psalm script from reading: “But a body you have prepared for me.”

everready
July 20th, 2015, 10:11 PM
Looks like you've read portions of scripture Ben have you read this?

John 3:1 There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews:

2 The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.

3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?

5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

9 Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be?
10 Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?

11 Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness.

12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?

13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:

15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.


everready

Robert Pate
July 21st, 2015, 05:21 AM
[QUOTE=Robert Pate;4390492]

And I believe he is neither. Neither God nor a man any more. He is dead. About 2,000 years already. Since he was a Jew, he has never been raised from the grave.



He was but not just a man but a Jewish man whose Faith was Judaism.



God can do any thing and every thing He wants but one, the thing you wish He did or should have done. What saves us is not another man but obedience to God's Law. (Isa. 1:18,19) According to the Prophets no one can save another but himself through the use of his or her freewill to obey God's Word. (Jer. 31:30; Eze. 18:20)



Jesus claimed to be a simple "son of man" which mean a mortal man. Any other claim was according to the gospel of Paul which had nothing with the gospel of Jesus.



We are saved by obedience of God's Law. Jesus himself, with his parable of the Richman and Lazarus, implied that the only way to escape hell-fire is by listening to "Moses" aka the Law. (Luke 16:31)


The law is the very nature and character of God.

Are you telling us that you have the nature and the character of God?

Paul said, "By the law is the knowledge of sin" Romans 3:20.

Are you going to be able to stand in the judgment, look God in the eye and say, "I am as good as you"?

Ben Masada
May 10th, 2016, 12:54 PM
Jesus is God. He is the second person of the Godhead.

"For there are THREE that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word (Jesus) and the Holy Spirit: AND THESE THREE ARE ONE" 1 John 5:7.

No one can really understand how God can be three persons in one. It is beyond human comprehension.

"Who is the image of the invisible God, the first born of every creature. For by him were all things created, that are in heaven and that are in the earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions or principalities or powers: all things were created by him and for him. And he is before all things, and by him all things consist" Colossians 1:15, 16, 17.

You will not go wrong if you believe that Jesus is God. But you will go wrong if you believe that he is not.

The Lord Almighty is of an Absolute Oneness and according to Prophet Isaiah, there must not be any one else to even compare with the Lord. (Isaiah 46:5) "Thou shall have no other god besides Me." (Exodus 20:3) That's the first commandment of the Lord in the Decalogue. The Firstborn of the Almighty Yahweh Is Israel as a people and not on an individual basis. "Israel is My firstborn son. So, let My son go that he may serve Me." (Exodus 4:22,23) The Tanach was the gospel of Jesus, not the NT.

Robert Pate
May 10th, 2016, 01:23 PM
The Lord Almighty is of an Absolute Oneness and according to Prophet Isaiah, there must not be any one else to even compare with the Lord. (Isaiah 46:5) "Thou shall have no other god besides Me." (Exodus 20:3) That's the first commandment of the Lord in the Decalogue. The Firstborn of the Almighty Yahweh Is Israel as a people and not on an individual basis. "Israel is My firstborn son. So, let My son go that he may serve Me." (Exodus 4:22,23) The Tanach was the gospel of Jesus, not the NT.

The rejection of the New Testament is the rejection of your Messiah. You are determined to die in your sins.

Ben Masada
May 10th, 2016, 01:25 PM
[QUOTE=Ben Masada;4390664]

[quote]The law is the very nature and character of God. Are you telling us that you have the nature and the character of God?

I am letting you know that we, the Jewish People are under the character and nature of HaShem; yes, we are. Now, if we remain as a People before the Lord forever. There is nothing wrong with this affirmation. If we obey Him faithfully and keep His Covenant, we shall continue being His treasured possession among all the peoples. Indeed, all the earth is the Lord's but we shall be to Him a kingdom of priests and a holy nation." (Exod.
19:5,6)


Paul said, "By the law is the knowledge of sin" Romans 3:20.

And Paul was right on this one. Indeed, during the time he had no knowledge of the Law, he had become a victim of Hellenist carnal behavior that caused him to serve two masters: The Law in his mind only while serving sin in his flesh. (Romans 7:25)


Are you going to be able to stand in the judgment, look God in the eye and say, "I am as good as you"?

Sorry, but now you have entered into the joke mood.

Ben Masada
May 10th, 2016, 01:40 PM
The rejection of the New Testament is the rejection of your Messiah. You are determined to die in your sins.

No, I am not. I am not saying any thing wrong. We are no longer praying for the coming of the Messiah because the light has finally shone upon ourselves to see that the Messiah is already back from the Diaspora. If you read Prophet Habakkuk 3:13 you will find out that our Messiah is already back. Habakkuk says that "The Lord goes forth to save His People; to save His Anointed One." That's what the Messiah is, the Anointed One of the Lord. Aka Israel himself, the Firstborn son of God Almighty. If you don't believe it, read Exodus 4:22,23.

Robert Pate
May 10th, 2016, 01:41 PM
[QUOTE=Robert Pate;4391680][QUOTE=Ben Masada;4390664]



I am letting you know that we, the Jewish People are under the character and nature of HaShem; yes, we are. Now, if we remain as a People before the Lord forever. There is nothing wrong with this affirmation. If we obey Him faithfully and keep His Covenant, we shall continue being His treasured possession among all the peoples. Indeed, all the earth is the Lord's but we shall be to Him a kingdom of priests and a holy nation." (Exod.
19:5,6)



And Paul was right on this one. Indeed, during the time he had no knowledge of the Law, he had become a victim of Hellenist carnal behavior that caused him to serve two masters: The Law in his mind only while serving sin in his flesh. (Romans 7:25)



Sorry, but now you have entered into the joke mood.

No joke. To be under the law is to be under condemnation.

The only way that you can escape the condemnation is to be "In Christ", Romans 8:1.

keypurr
May 12th, 2016, 10:53 PM
The Bible teaches that Jesus is God, John 10:30.

Nope, it doesn't. It teaches that he is the SON of God.

Totton Linnet
May 13th, 2016, 04:41 AM
What the Father is the Son must be also

what is your son....a rabbit?

KingdomRose
May 13th, 2016, 08:17 AM
The reason that I inserted God into that scripture is because the bible teaches that Jesus is God. If you don't believe that Jesus is God that is your problem

"For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word (Jesus) and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one" 1 John 5:7.

"For in him dwells all the fullness of the GODHEAD bodily" Colossians 2:9.

No the Bible does NOT teach that Jesus is God, and your inserting "God" into a scripture just makes you guilty of ADDING TO the Scriptures. God doesn't like anyone adding to the Scriptures. (Deut.4:2: Rev.22:18) The problem is with you.

I John 5:7 is well-known to scholars as a much later corruption of the scriptures, inserted by some biased scribe. Earlier manuscripts do not contain this verse.

To say that "in him dwells all the fulness of the divine qualities" at Colossians 2:9 does not make Jesus God. It also says in Colossians that Jesus is the IMAGE OF God, not God.

You are perpetrating your own viewpoint into the Scriptures and adding to what they actually say.

KingdomRose
May 13th, 2016, 08:30 AM
Jesus fulfills the law for us.

But faith and believing is something that we must do.

"Whosoever that shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved" Romans 10:13.


Which "Lord"? Sure, Romans 10:13 refers to Jesus, but does Acts 2:21 refer to Jesus? No...Peter was quoting from Joel 2:28-32. The Divine Name is there: YHWH, commonly translated as "Jehovah." They are not the same Lord, so...we must call on BOTH of them to be saved.

"Everyone who pushes ahead and does not remain in the teaching of the Christ does not have God. The one who does remain in this teaching is the one who has BOTH the Father and the Son." (2John 9)

So, to summarize....Jesus and God (Jehovah) are not the same and are two distinct persons. We must recognize and honor them BOTH to be saved. Jesus is God's SON, as he said, and Jehovah is God. This is what the Scriptures actually say, without any additions.

KingdomRose
May 13th, 2016, 08:37 AM
It doesn't say.

Yes it does. Verse 22: "The Jews then began to say..." Verse 23: "He went on to say to THEM..."

The Jews (the religious leaders).


:wave2: Hello-o. Awake yet?

KingdomRose
May 13th, 2016, 08:46 AM
So, we're down to Jesus speaking specifically to those scribes and Pharisees. Thank you B57. They seemed to have a real problem with Jesus in the NT. Do you think folk here on TOL are scribesYes, excellent and Pharisees, Robert? You seem to be painting with a rather large brush in your OP, don't you think? Jesus was talking to those scribes and Pharisees denying Jesus' divine origin/Paternity (John 8:13 KJV, John 8:19 KJV), and plotting Jesus' crucifixion (John 8:28 KJV, John 8:37 KJV). And, you Robert, put folk on TOL into that same category as those scribes and Pharisees in you OP statement:



Rather broad accusation, don't you think? Furthermore, those scribes and Pharisees plotting Jesus' crucifixion wanted Jesus crucified because THEY said Jesus was God, isn't that what you're saying, Robert? Jesus is God?


John 10:31, 32, 33, KJV "Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him. 32) Jesus answered them, Many good works have I showed you from my Father; for which of those works to ye stone me? 33) The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God."

Did Jesus make Himself God, Robert? Jesus continued:


John 10:34 KJV "Jesus answered them, Is it not written in you law, I said, Ye are gods?

So, it wasn't Jesus who was God. According to Jesus' response, those who were plotting His crucifixion were gods. Where in the Books of Moses were 'they' referred to as gods, Robert? Jesus continued:


John 10:35 KJV "If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;

Who was 'he' in "If he called them gods...", Robert? Where in the Books of Moses were 'they' called gods? Who was 'he' that called them gods in the OT? Jesus continued:


John 10:36 KJV "Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the son of God?"

So, Jesus said the FATHER sanctified Him, and SENT Him into the world. Those scribes and Pharisees, seeking Jesus' death, said Jesus made Himself God. You're saying Jesus made Himself God. Aren't you taking the same position as those scribes and Pharisees seeking Jesus' crucifixion, Robert? Jesus said somewhere in OT Scripture 'they' were gods. And Jesus concluded His defense that He said He was the "son of God." To sum this up:

Those scribes and Pharisees said Jesus made Himself out to be God. Jesus said they were gods. And Jesus said He was the son of God.

Yours is a pretty haughty position accusing virtually everyone but yourself with your opening OP. Do you know good from evil, Robert:


Genesis 3:4, 5, KJV "And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die: 5) For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil."

Didn't Jesus say those scribes and Pharisees were gods as mentioned in the OT?

Well, it just sounds to me that you've taken the same position as those conspiring to kill Jesus. They said Jesus made Himself out to be God, also. While Jesus said they were gods, and He was the Son of God. That's pretty interesting.

But, getting back to my specific question... who were those scribes and Pharisees seeking Jesus' crucifixion in John 8 where you took John 8:24 out of context? Those scribes and Pharisees said they were "Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man" (John 8:33 KJV). I don't suppose it occurred to you those scribes and Pharisees seeking Jesus' crucifixion were evidently not Israelites who HAD been in bondage in Egypt. That's pretty interesting, also.

So, in other words Robert... I seem to get the impression you really don't know who Jesus was talking to in your OP. B57 got them narrowed down to scribes and Pharisees. And, there seems to be a bit more definition laying on the table, here. So, those instigators of Jesus' crucifixion, who said Jesus was God, were Abraham's seed, affirmed by Jesus in John 8:37 KJV... but, they weren't "Abraham's children" (John 8:39 KJV). Maybe I'm splitting hairs just a bit, but didn't Paul hint around at this in Romans 9:6, 7, 8? Sure Robert, you've taken John 8:24 KJV out of context:



Those Jesus was speaking to in that verse, instigating His death (John 8:28 KJV, John 8:37 KJV, John 10:31 KJV, John 10:32 KJV), said Jesus was God (John 10:33 KJV), just like you're saying. Quite interesting!


kayaker
Yes, excellent reasoning---and what the Bible actually SAYS, kayaker. Robert would stand with the Pharisees in calling Jesus God.

Jesus himself said that he was GOD'S SON (John 10:36) and that the Father (Jehovah) was his Father and God. He said to Mary: "I am ascending to my Father and your Father and to MY GOD and your God." (John 20:17)

The Pharisees accused him falsely.

KingdomRose
May 13th, 2016, 08:55 AM
The Bible teaches that Jesus is God, John 10:30.


Didn't you read what the Bible says ELSEWHERE?

Also, John 10:30 does not teach the Jesus is God. He was saying the he and God were UNITED. They AGREED with each other.

I have asked you to comment on John 17:20-23 but you have not responded to that. It says that Jesus' DISCIPLES would be "one" just as the Father and Christ were "one." Are the disciples also God?


"I make request, not concerning these only, but also concerning those putting faith in me through their word, so that they may all be one, just as you, Father, are in union with me and I am in union with you, that they may also be in union with us, so that the world may believe that you sent me. I have given them the glory that you have given me, in order that they may be one just as we are one."


The Father and Jesus are "one," and Jesus prayed that his disciples would ALSO be "one" with them. Do they ALL make up "God"?

Grosnick Marowbe
May 13th, 2016, 09:03 AM
Didn't you read what the Bible says ELSEWHERE?

Also, John 10:30 does not teach the Jesus is God. He was saying the he and God were UNITED. They AGREED with each other.

I have asked you to comment on John 17:20-23 but you have not responded to that. It says that Jesus' DISCIPLES would be "one" just as the Father and Christ were "one." Are the disciples also God?


"I make request, not concerning these only, but also concerning those putting faith in me through their word, so that they may all be one, just as you, Father, are in union with me and I am in union with you, that they may also be in union with us, so that the world may believe that you sent me. I have given them the glory that you have given me, in order that they may be one just as we are one."


The Father and Jesus are "one," and Jesus prayed that his disciples would ALSO be "one" with them. Do they ALL make up "God"?

You're coming from another prospective. A Jehovah Witnness cult prospective. Oil and water.

Grosnick Marowbe
May 13th, 2016, 09:04 AM
KR, how's The Watchtower business coming along?

KingdomRose
May 13th, 2016, 09:16 AM
Jesus is either God or he is a man. I believe that he is both.

If he is just a man, then that means that he was born after Adam and he is a sinner. If he was a sinner it would not be possible for him to atone for the sins of the world. God requires a perfect sacrifice for the sins of humanity.

Jesus had to be both God and man to save us. Jesus is God's new creation and Gods new humanity. Only God can raise people from the dead. Only God can turn water into wine.

"Unless you believe that he is who he claims to be, you will die in your sins".

We are saved by faith in Christ. You can't have faith in just a man.
No, you are wrong. You say, "Jesus is either God or he is a man." SAYS WHO? He is neither God nor just a man.

He is not God, but he was a man---a PERFECT, SINLESS MAN. This is MUCH DIFFERENT than a mere man, born into a sinful human race. He inherited no sin, protected in the womb of Mary.

You are right, only God can resurrect people or work miracles. That is why God GAVE Jesus the power to do those things. He said: "All authority has been GIVEN me in heaven and on the earth." (Matt.28:18)


If he was God, he would not have had to be given anything.

KingdomRose
May 13th, 2016, 09:26 AM
Then we have in verse 31, I mean John 8:31, that Jesus was talking to the Jews who had believed in him. Then to these Jews who had believed in him he said, "You are children of the Devil." Does it make any sense to you? To me it doesn't. How could Jesus call the Jews who had believed in him children of the Devil? (John 8:44)That's why those Jews who had believed in Jesus got upset and revealed a secret that Jesus had been born out of fornication. (John 8:41) In fact, Josephus in his book "Wars of the Jews" mentions that in the First Century rapes of Jewish young ladies by the Romans in Israel was catastrophic. Thousands of Jewish children had been born out of fornication in Israel.

Lousy note-taking on a disciple's part. :think: In verse 31 he had to have been talking to his disciples. He must have turned to a different set of Jews when he spoke the words in verses 33-47. OR....the Jews he spoke to had ONCE believed him but then changed their minds.

If they thought Jesus had been "born out of fornication," they were wrong once again.

KingdomRose
May 13th, 2016, 09:32 AM
The rejection of the New Testament is the rejection of your Messiah. You are determined to die in your sins.


You will also, if you continue to reject and misrepresent God, the Father (YHWH). (John 14:24,28,31)

BTW, I asked you to explain those verses in John, among others, but you haven't yet.

KingdomRose
May 13th, 2016, 09:37 AM
What the Father is the Son must be also

what is your son....a rabbit?

Do you have a brother? Or even you yourself......is your brother, or, are YOU the same as your father? Your argument is LAME.

Robert Pate
May 13th, 2016, 09:48 AM
Do you have a brother? Or even you yourself......is your brother, or, are YOU the same as your father? Your argument is LAME.


Jesus was the same as his father. He was divine.

"I and my Father are one" John 10:30.

Brother Ducky
May 13th, 2016, 02:23 PM
It is our personal responsibility to find the truth and believe it.

If you find yourself in hell after the judgment don't blame God for it. It is not Gods responsibility to save you. He has done all that he can do to provide you with savation. He has given his only "Begotten Son" for your salvation. It is your responsibility to...
"Enter in at the strait gate" Matthew 7:13, 14. There are two ways for you to go, there is the strait gate which leads to eternal life and there is the broad way that leads to destruction. It is your personal resonsibility to seek out and find the strait gate that leads to eternal life. That is the purpose of this scripture. Jesus gives you a commandment, "Enter in at the strait gate".

The "strait gate" is Jesus Christ. Jesus said, "I am the way, the truth and the life: no man can come to the Father but by me, John 14:6. There, I have just told you the way to the strait gate. Why do you want to continue on the broad way that leads to destruction? The broadway is the way of man, it is the way of religion. The broad way is the way that seems right unto a man, but it is the way of death and destruction, Proverbs 14:12.

The reason that the "Broad Way" is broad is because there are "many there be that go that way". It has to be broad to accomodate the masses that have rejected the strait gate and are continuing on the broad way that leads to death and destruction. If I was driving down the street and I saw that your house was on fire I would stop and bang on your door and tell you that your house was on fire. I am banging on your door NOW to tell you that if you are not totally and completely trusting in Jesus Christ to save you, YOUR HOUSE IS ON FIRE.

Does this apply to your mentor?

Totton Linnet
May 13th, 2016, 04:30 PM
Do you have a brother? Or even you yourself......is your brother, or, are YOU the same as your father? Your argument is LAME.

if you will not honour the Son EVEN AS you honour the Father you will incur God's anger

Totton Linnet
May 13th, 2016, 04:31 PM
Jesus was the same as his father. He was divine.

"I and my Father are one" John 10:30.

Totally, if you have seen Christ you have seen the Father

Lazy afternoon
May 13th, 2016, 04:54 PM
Totally, if you have seen Christ you have seen the Father

The word seen there is perceive not visible sight.

Joh 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

LA

Lazy afternoon
May 13th, 2016, 04:55 PM
No the Bible does NOT teach that Jesus is God, and your inserting "God" into a scripture just makes you guilty of ADDING TO the Scriptures. God doesn't like anyone adding to the Scriptures. (Deut.4:2: Rev.22:18) The problem is with you.

I John 5:7 is well-known to scholars as a much later corruption of the scriptures, inserted by some biased scribe. Earlier manuscripts do not contain this verse.

To say that "in him dwells all the fulness of the divine qualities" at Colossians 2:9 does not make Jesus God. It also says in Colossians that Jesus is the IMAGE OF God, not God.

You are perpetrating your own viewpoint into the Scriptures and adding to what they actually say.

True.

LA

keypurr
May 13th, 2016, 04:56 PM
What the Father is the Son must be also

what is your son....a rabbit?
Dumb rebut Totton

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keypurr
May 13th, 2016, 05:03 PM
if you will not honour the Son EVEN AS you honour the Father you will incur God's anger
We honor the son by following his teachings and pray to his God.

Sent from my SM-T330NU using TheologyOnline mobile app ('https://siteowners.tapatalk.com/byo/displayAndDownloadByoApp?rid=78367')

Totton Linnet
May 14th, 2016, 02:26 AM
The Father requires the honour of worship

jamie
May 14th, 2016, 08:36 AM
Let's say for the sake of discussion that salvation equates to immortality, meaning we are saved from the second death. So how is this accomplished?

The Father reconciled everyone in heaven and earth to himself through the blood of Jesus Christ. Does this reconciliation mean everyone has been saved? Not at all, we are not saved by Jesus' death, we are saved by Christ in us, the hope of glory.

Since Christ in us produces salvation we can say that it is Christ who saves us, he is our Savior.

He is our Savior, but is he God? Not the Most High God, that is a different person whom we call our Father, however, God's family is not limited to just the Father, it includes the Son and the Son's bride. This is the kingdom of God.

We are told that flesh and blood cannot enter the kingdom of God, rather we must be born of the Spirit. Jesus was born of the Spirit and God is his father. We are begotten of the Spirit to be born with an incorruptible body and immortality at Christ's coming.

The Father will remain in heaven when Jesus Christ comes to give us immortality (salvation). Jesus Christ is our Savior.

So now we are "looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ, who gave Himself for us, that He might redeem us from every lawless deed and purify for Himself His own special people, zealous for good works." (Titus 2:13-14)

There is no question that Jesus Christ is our Savior and there should be no question that he is our great God.


And Thomas answered and said to Him, “My Lord and my God!” Jesus said to him, “Thomas, because you have seen Me, you have believed. Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.” (John 20:28-29)

Jesus did not deny he was Lord and God and he even conferred a blessing on those who believe.

Robert Pate
May 14th, 2016, 09:00 AM
Let's say for the sake of discussion that salvation equates to immortality, meaning we are saved from the second death. So how is this accomplished?

The Father reconciled everyone in heaven and earth to himself through the blood of Jesus Christ. Does this reconciliation mean everyone has been saved? Not at all, we are not saved by Jesus' death, we are saved by Christ in us, the hope of glory.

Since Christ in us produces salvation we can say that it is Christ who saves us, he is our Savior.

He is our Savior, but is he God? Not the Most High God, that is a different person whom we call our Father, however, God's family is not limited to just the Father, it includes the Son and the Son's bride. This is the kingdom of God.

We are told that flesh and blood cannot enter the kingdom of God, rather we must be born of the Spirit. Jesus was born of the Spirit and God is his father. We are begotten of the Spirit to be born with an incorruptible body and immortality at Christ's coming.

The Father will remain in heaven when Jesus Christ comes to give us immortality (salvation). Jesus Christ is our Savior.

So now we are "looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ, who gave Himself for us, that He might redeem us from every lawless deed and purify for Himself His own special people, zealous for good works." (Titus 2:13-14)

There is no question that Jesus Christ is our Savior and there should be no question that he is our great God.


And Thomas answered and said to Him, “My Lord and my God!” Jesus said to him, “Thomas, because you have seen Me, you have believed. Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.” (John 20:28-29)

Jesus did not deny he was Lord and God and he even conferred a blessing on those who believe.


Christ in us does not produce salvation.

What produces salvation is the doing and the dying of Jesus that took place over 2000 years ago.

dodge
May 14th, 2016, 09:28 AM
Christ in us does not produce salvation.

What produces salvation is the doing and the dying of Jesus that took place over 2000 years ago.

If one rejects Christ do you believe they are saved ?

Christ in us the hope of glory according to scripture.

Totton Linnet
May 14th, 2016, 10:49 AM
The word seen there is perceive not visible sight.

Joh 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

LA

So the real question is just how dumb ARE you folks?

"He was in the bosom of the Father"

I cain't hep you folks with this, nobody can because the revelation of Christ as God must come from the Father, flesh and blood does not reveal it.

I say you are dumb but really it is this matter of revelation. The very smartest people in the world can't discover it.

It is the revelation upon which Christ has built His church

Epoisses
May 14th, 2016, 10:52 AM
If one rejects Christ do you believe they are saved ?

Christ in us the hope of glory according to scripture.

The whole world has been saved, past tense, 2000 years ago by the life, death and resurrection of Jesus Christ.

Do you believe the good news?

dodge
May 14th, 2016, 10:57 AM
The whole world has been saved, past tense, 2000 years ago by the life, death and resurrection of Jesus Christ.

Do you believe the good news?

That is NOT scriptural ! Jesus taught that the road to hell was broad and many are on that road, and the road to eternal life was narrow and few was on that road. I do not know where you get your beliefs but they are surely NOT from the bible.

Yes, I believe the gospel ( good news ) and as Jesus taught that WHOSOEVER BELIEVES in Him would not perish but have eternal life.

beloved57
May 14th, 2016, 11:45 AM
pate


It is our personal responsibility to find the truth and believe it.

A lie. Truth of the Gospel is revealed by the Spirit.

jamie
May 14th, 2016, 01:43 PM
Christ in us does not produce salvation.


Your argument is with Paul.

Lazy afternoon
May 15th, 2016, 01:05 AM
So the real question is just how dumb ARE you folks?

"He was in the bosom of the Father"

I cain't hep you folks with this, nobody can because the revelation of Christ as God must come from the Father, flesh and blood does not reveal it.

I say you are dumb but really it is this matter of revelation. The very smartest people in the world can't discover it.

It is the revelation upon which Christ has built His church

Mat 21:42 Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?

Act 2:36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.

Heb 2:10 For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.

Mat 16:15 He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?
Mat 16:16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. Mat 16:17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

LA

Totton Linnet
May 15th, 2016, 03:52 AM
You do not savvy what "Thou art the Son of the Living God" means


...the Jews knew

They took up stones to kill the Christ with on that account and they had Him away to be crucified on that account.


...you also take up stones against us and in your hearts would crucify us....you PROVE this by believing that we are the Babylon which is devouted to destruction.

...you would don your burkhas and dance in the street

Lazy afternoon
May 15th, 2016, 04:10 AM
...you also take up stones against us and in your hearts would crucify us....you PROVE this by believing that we are the Babylon which is devouted to destruction.



No, but you sure are acting like you are.

LA

Robert Pate
May 16th, 2016, 07:22 AM
Your argument is with Paul.

If we could have been saved by "Christ in us" then there was really no reason for the incarnation of Jesus Christ. God could have just sent the Holy Spirit from heaven so that we could have Christ in us.

jamie
May 16th, 2016, 07:59 AM
If we could have been saved by "Christ in us" then there was really no reason for the incarnation of Jesus Christ. God could have just sent the Holy Spirit from heaven so that we could have Christ in us.


Without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sin. Jesus died to redeem us from sin, not to save us in sin.

Epoisses
May 16th, 2016, 10:02 AM
That is NOT scriptural ! Jesus taught that the road to hell was broad and many are on that road, and the road to eternal life was narrow and few was on that road. I do not know where you get your beliefs but they are surely NOT from the bible.

Yes, I believe the gospel ( good news ) and as Jesus taught that WHOSOEVER BELIEVES in Him would not perish but have eternal life.

If you see getting saved as the point in your life where you accept and believe in Jesus then you are unwittingly advocating the idea that you have saved yourself.

If you see getting saved as solely the work of Christ 2000 years ago before you were born or did anything good or bad you are slowly coming into the light of the gospel.

Sinners can't save other sinners and they can't save themselves either. All the super heroes are trying to save the world when the world has already been saved.

patrick jane
May 16th, 2016, 10:10 AM
Christ in us does not produce salvation.

.
It's the mystery _ Colossians 1:27 KJV -

heir
May 16th, 2016, 10:32 AM
If one rejects Christ do you believe they are saved ?

Christ in us the hope of glory according to scripture.Christ is not in you unless there was a moment in your life when you trusted Him believing 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV.

heir
May 16th, 2016, 10:37 AM
If you see getting saved as the point in your life where you accept and believe in Jesus then you are unwittingly advocating the idea that you have saved yourself.The preaching of the cross is the power of God (1 Corinthians 1:18 KJV) and God has chosen the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe (1 Corinthians 1:21 KJV). No one is saved unless and until they receive the love of the truth. This is not to say that the work of our salvation was not done 2000 years ago as clearly it was (1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV)! We would have no hope, but by the cross (Ephesians 2:11-13 KJV). The work of the cross, even the righteousness of God is unto all and UPON ALL THEM THAT BELIEVE (Romans 3:21-22 KJV).

Epoisses
May 16th, 2016, 10:41 AM
The preaching of the cross is the power of God (1 Corinthians 1:18 KJV) and God has chosen the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe (1 Corinthians 1:21 KJV). No one is saved unless and until they receive the love of the truth. This is not to say that the work of our salvation was not done 2000 years ago as clearly it was (1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV)! We would have no hope, but by the cross (Ephesians 2:11-13 KJV). The work of the cross, even the righteousness of God is unto all and UPON ALL THEM THAT BELIEVE (Romans 3:21-22 KJV).

They go together like two sides of the same coin. I advocate both sides. With those who trust in their works I like to focus on the cross and with those who pervert the cross like Calvinists I have to unfortunately focus on works.

heir
May 16th, 2016, 10:42 AM
They go together like two sides of the same coin. I advocate both sides. With those who trust in their works I like to focus on the cross and with those who pervert the cross like Calvinists I have to unfortunately focus on works.My post showed no works of ourselves. You think believing is a work?

KingdomRose
May 16th, 2016, 11:34 AM
Jesus was the same as his father. He was divine.

"I and my Father are one" John 10:30.

Yes they both were and are divine. That doesn't make Jesus God. "Divine" means only that someone is "of or from God." The angels are also divine.

Have you responded yet to my suggestion to read JOHN 17:20-23? This shows that to say that Jesus and the Father are "one" simply means that they are UNITED; IN AGREEMENT. Jesus' disciples are also "one" with Jesus and the Father. Does that make them God also?

KingdomRose
May 16th, 2016, 11:43 AM
You do not savvy what "Thou art the Son of the Living God" means


...the Jews knew

They took up stones to kill the Christ with on that account and they had Him away to be crucified on that account.


...you also take up stones against us and in your hearts would crucify us....you PROVE this by believing that we are the Babylon which is devouted to destruction.

...you would don your burkhas and dance in the street

Your false words get you further and further into trouble with God and his Son.

To say "the Son of God" in no way infers that this Son IS God. That is a severe TWISTING done by you.

You forget that the Jews KILLED Jesus, so why do you side with them in their erroneous judgments of Jesus?

He never claimed to be God, and they knew that. They were furious because he said he was the SON OF GOD, obviously making himself superior to Abraham, which they resented. He didn't say "I am God." But they trumped up that charge just to get everyone upset with him. In fact, after he was crucified they came by and said, "He said he was God's Son," not God. (Matthew 27:43)

jamie
May 16th, 2016, 11:48 AM
Sinners can't save other sinners and they can't save themselves either.


Sinners can't, but those who are right with God certainly can.


And of some have compassion, making a difference, and others save with fear pulling them out of the fire, hating even the garment spotted by the flesh. (Jude 22-23)

Robert Pate
May 16th, 2016, 12:54 PM
Your false words get you further and further into trouble with God and his Son.

To say "the Son of God" in no way infers that this Son IS God. That is a severe TWISTING done by you.

You forget that the Jews KILLED Jesus, so why do you side with them in their erroneous judgments of Jesus?

He never claimed to be God, and they knew that. They were furious because he said he was the SON OF GOD, obviously making himself superior to Abraham, which they resented. He didn't say "I am God." But they trumped up that charge just to get everyone upset with him. In fact, after he was crucified they came by and said, "He said he was God's Son," not God. (Matthew 27:43)


What are you going to do about this scripture?

"I and my Father are one" John 10:30.

Then the Jews took up stones to stone him, John 10:31.

To bad you couldn't have been there to pitch a couple.

serpentdove
May 16th, 2016, 01:03 PM
It's the mystery _ Colossians 1:27 KJV -

The mystery :idunno: A mystery

Christ’s incarnation (1 Tim. 3:16), Christ’s nature (Col. 2:2), The Kingdom of God (Luke 8:10), Christian faith (1 Tim. 3:9), Indwelling Christ (Col. 1:26, 27), Union of all believers (Eph. 3:4–9), Israel’s blindness (Rom. 11:25), Lawlessness (2 Thess. 2:7), Harlot Babylon (Rev. 17:5, 7), Resurrection of saints (1 Cor. 15:51), God’s completed purpose (Rev. 10:7), etc. Thomas Nelson Publishers. (1996). Nelson’s quick reference topical Bible index (p. 437). Nashville, TN: Thomas Nelson Publishers.

Totton Linnet
May 16th, 2016, 01:14 PM
Your false words get you further and further into trouble with God and his Son.

To say "the Son of God" in no way infers that this Son IS God. That is a severe TWISTING done by you.

You forget that the Jews KILLED Jesus, so why do you side with them in their erroneous judgments of Jesus?

He never claimed to be God, and they knew that. They were furious because he said he was the SON OF GOD, obviously making himself superior to Abraham, which they resented. He didn't say "I am God." But they trumped up that charge just to get everyone upset with him. In fact, after he was crucified they came by and said, "He said he was God's Son," not God. (Matthew 27:43)

Why do you insert a downright lie? They picked up stones to kill Him because "He said God was His Father...thus making Himself equal with God" THAT is what the scripture says

You wish our destruction because we worship Him as God...it is the religion of Cain.

serpentdove
May 16th, 2016, 01:44 PM
The truth is this:

Salvation was never an offer to all humanity but was provided exclusively for
a Chosen People Is. 45:17...

:dizzy: 2 Pe 3:9

patrick jane
May 16th, 2016, 03:17 PM
The mystery :idunno: A mystery

Christ’s incarnation (1 Tim. 3:16), Christ’s nature (Col. 2:2), The Kingdom of God (Luke 8:10), Christian faith (1 Tim. 3:9), Indwelling Christ (Col. 1:26, 27), Union of all believers (Eph. 3:4–9), Israel’s blindness (Rom. 11:25), Lawlessness (2 Thess. 2:7), Harlot Babylon (Rev. 17:5, 7), Resurrection of saints (1 Cor. 15:51), God’s completed purpose (Rev. 10:7), etc. Thomas Nelson Publishers. (1996). Nelson’s quick reference topical Bible index (p. 437). Nashville, TN: Thomas Nelson Publishers.
Yes there are many mysteries Serpy, but Christ in you is the one I was talking about.

Nanja
May 16th, 2016, 03:30 PM
:dizzy: 2 Pe 3:9


This is the entirety of my original post:


Salvation was never an offer to all humanity but was provided exclusively for
a Chosen People Is. 45:17, not by any works they do, but by God's Grace exclusively.

2 Tim. 1:9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works,
but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began.

Just as in Adam, their natural head, all the Elect were made sinners, so also in Christ Jesus, their Covenant Head,
all His Sons chosen in Him Eph. 1:4-5, they were made Righteous by His Obedience to God's Commandments
in their behalf Rom. 5:19. Christ's Righteousness is charged to them, even before they believed.

The whole matter of Salvation was settled by God in Eternity Heb. 7:22; Phil. 1:29; John 3:18.

~~~~~



Now, with regard to:

2 Pet. 3:9
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.


God is not willing that ALL of those in the "us-ward" group perish.
And who are those in view here Peter is addressing?


The Elect of God:


1 Pet. 1:2
Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.


The Seed of Christ Gal. 3:16; The only People Promised Salvation: ALL ISRAEL Is. 45:17 jew and Gentile.
The Election of Grace, ALL those Chosen of the Father and given to Christ to give Eternal Life to, His Sheep:


John 10:28-29
28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.


Is. 53:10
Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.


But now we know from other scriptures, there is a portion of humanity which shall perish in their sins, whom God has reserved to be punished: The Unjust.


Rev. 22:11
He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.


So, these scriptures are proof that God never desired that all of humanity without exception would be saved.


Job 23:13-14
13 But he is in one mind, and who can turn him? and what his soul desireth, even that he doeth.
14 For he performeth the thing that is appointed for me: and many such things are with him.

~~~~~

Ben Masada
May 16th, 2016, 03:43 PM
[quote]Your false words get you further and further into trouble with God and his Son.

Not if he is a Jew. Then his words are not false. A Jew can legally say he is son of God and not being false because he is speaking as part of the People of Israel aka His son. (Exodsus 4:22,23) "Israel is My son; let My son go that he may serve Me."


To say "the Son of God" in no way infers that this Son IS God. That is a severe TWISTING done by you.

Any Jew can say he is son of God and still be not a twisting he does. The Torah confirms that he is son of God. Read Exodus 4:22,23.


You forget that the Jews KILLED Jesus, so why do you side with them in their erroneous judgments of Jesus?

The Jews did not kill Jesus. Why would they kill a fellow Jew who came to confirm the Law and the Prophets down to the letter? If you are sincere enough to want to do who contributed for the killing of Jesus on the cross, read Luke 19:37-40 and you will know it. His disciples did it when they acclaimed Jesus king of the Jews at the entrance of Jerusalem. This was a criminal charge bordering on insurrection punishable with crucifixion. Even some of the Pharisees tried to save Jesus by asking him to stop his disciples or he would be arrested. Probably because Jesus was enjoying the parade, he said he could not stop them or the stones would shout. Hence he was arrested and taken to the cross with his verdict INRI commanded by Pilate to be nailed on the top of his cross.


He never claimed to be God, and they knew that. They were furious because he said he was the SON OF GOD, obviously making himself superior to Abraham, which they resented. He didn't say "I am God." But they trumped up that charge just to get everyone upset with him. In fact, after he was crucified they came by and said, "He said he was God's Son," not God. (Matthew 27:43)

Yes, indeed, they knew that and we know even today that there is nothing wrong with the Jewish claim that we are son of God because the Torah says so. (Exodus 4:22,23)

dodge
May 16th, 2016, 04:44 PM
Christ is not in you unless there was a moment in your life when you trusted Him believing 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV.

AMEN !

Nanja
May 16th, 2016, 05:02 PM
AMEN !


Many use those verses incorrectly to support a false freewill religion;
whereby an unregenerate person can receive the Gospel and get himself saved.
But scriptures say otherwise:


Rom. 8:7-8
Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God,
neither indeed can be. So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.


So those verses in 1 Cor. 15:1-4 were written exclusively to the Church of God,
to them that are Sanctified, called to be Saints 1 Cor. 1:2, just as Paul explained
to the Saints in Eph. 1:1: The Elect Chosen in Christ before the foundation Eph. 1:4-11.


So what Paul is saying in 1 Cor. 15:1-4 is that only the Saints, the Church,
will believe the Gospel, because Christ gave His Life for Her Eph. 5:25.


The Saints will believe the Gospel because they were Chosen to Salvation and Belief of the Truth.

2 Thes. 2:13
But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath
from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth

~~~~~

dodge
May 16th, 2016, 05:24 PM
Many use those verses incorrectly to support a false freewill religion;
whereby an unregenerate person can receive the Gospel and get himself saved.
But scriptures say otherwise:


Rom. 8:7-8
Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God,
neither indeed can be. So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.


So those verses in 1 Cor. 15:1-4 were written exclusively to the Church of God,
to them that are Sanctified, called to be Saints 1 Cor. 1:2, just as Paul explained
to the Saints in Eph. 1:1: The Elect Chosen in Christ before the foundation Eph. 1:4-11.


So what Paul is saying in 1 Cor. 15:1-4 is that only the Saints, the Church,
will believe the Gospel, because Christ gave His Life for Her Eph. 5:25.


The Saints will believe the Gospel because they were Chosen to Salvation and Belief of the Truth.

2 Thes. 2:13
But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath
from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth

~~~~~


If there was NEVER a time in your life when you trusted Jesus and asked God for forgiveness of sins you are lost. I pray that you place your faith and trust in God.

dodge
May 16th, 2016, 05:27 PM
If you see getting saved as the point in your life where you accept and believe in Jesus then you are unwittingly advocating the idea that you have saved yourself.

If you see getting saved as solely the work of Christ 2000 years ago before you were born or did anything good or bad you are slowly coming into the light of the gospel.

Sinners can't save other sinners and they can't save themselves either. All the super heroes are trying to save the world when the world has already been saved.


Have you never read where FAITH comes from = hearing God's word.
One cannot earn grace NOR save themselves, but that is NO excuse for not obeying God !

Nanja
May 16th, 2016, 05:33 PM
If there was NEVER a time in your life when you trusted Jesus and asked God for forgiveness of sins you are lost. I pray that you place your faith and trust in God.


Only once I was Born Again did I receive Faith / Trust which is a Fruit and Gift of the Holy Spirit Gal. 5:22; Eph 2:8. So, you see, it was not of myself, in my own trusting of the flesh, but Trusting by the Power of God given me in New Birth!

~~~~~

dodge
May 16th, 2016, 05:41 PM
Only once I was Born Again did I receive Faith / Trust which is a Fruit and Gift of the Holy Spirit Gal. 5:22; Eph 2:8. So, you see, it was not of myself, in my own trusting of the flesh, but Trusting by the Power of God given me in New Birth!

~~~~~

The Holy Spirit CONVICTS and YOU either say yes or no.

Why do folks that accept God's word and conviction believe they had NO part in obeying God ?

Nanja
May 16th, 2016, 06:01 PM
The Holy Spirit CONVICTS and YOU either say yes or no.

Why do folks that accept God's word and conviction believe they had NO part in obeying God ?


Humanity has not been given a choice to believe God!

For Faith / Belief in God is a Fruit of the Spirit of God is Given in New Birth Gal 5:22.

The World that the Spirit convicts / convinces of sin is a specific World;
the World that God so Loved that He gave His only begotten Son for in behalf of John 3:16.


Just as Jesus clearly stated:

John 17:9
I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine Eph. 1:4-5; 2 Tim. 1:9.

~~~~~

dodge
May 16th, 2016, 06:28 PM
Humanity has not been given a choice to believe God!

For Faith / Belief in God is a Fruit of the Spirit of God is Given in New Birth Gal 5:22.

The World that the Spirit convicts / convinces of sin is a specific World;
the World that God so Loved that He gave His only begotten Son for in behalf of John 3:16.


Just as Jesus clearly stated:

John 17:9
I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine Eph. 1:4-5; 2 Tim. 1:9.

~~~~~

So you believe Jesus and the Apostles taught error ?

Jesus said whosoever believes in Him would NOT perish but have eternal life.

The Apostle Paul taught in Romans 10 that whosoever believes.

Then along comes men and changes what Jesus and the Apostles taught.

KingdomRose
May 16th, 2016, 07:09 PM
What are you going to do about this scripture?

"I and my Father are one" John 10:30.

Then the Jews took up stones to stone him, John 10:31.

To bad you couldn't have been there to pitch a couple.

Trouble is, you don't read my posts! I have dealt with John 10:30 innumerable times.

"I and the Father are one" has the same meaning as JOHN 17:20-23 where we see that Jesus is praying that the disciples would be "one" just as Jesus and the Father were "one." I asked you if that showed that the disciples were also God, which it must if John 10:30 means Jesus is God.

"I do not ask on behalf of these [disciples] alone, but for those also who believe in me through their word; that they may all be one; even as You, Father, are in me and I in You, that they also may be in us. The glory which You have given me I have given to them, that they may be one, just as we are one."

I'm still waiting for an answer. It looks like the disciples are God also, because they would be "one" with Christ and the Father.


John 10:31 shows nothing except the Jews wanted to kill Jesus. They gave him a weak answer as to why they wanted to kill him---because he was "making himself out to be God" (NASB). You'll notice that immediately following this accusation Jesus refuted it. Have you read JOHN 10:34-36? He corrected them, saying, "I AM THE SON OF GOD."

Not God.


Are you going to actually read my response to you?


:think:

Nanja
May 16th, 2016, 07:14 PM
So you believe Jesus and the Apostles taught error ?

Jesus said whosoever believes in Him would NOT perish but have eternal life.

The Apostle Paul taught in Romans 10 that whosoever believes.

Then along comes men and changes what Jesus and the Apostles taught.


Believing on Christ is a Fruit and Gift of the Holy Spirit given in New Birth.

Unless a person is Born Again, he cannot Believe on Christ. Period!

Rom. 8:7-8
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

~~~~~

KingdomRose
May 16th, 2016, 07:15 PM
Why do you insert a downright lie? They picked up stones to kill Him because "He said God was His Father...thus making Himself equal with God" THAT is what the scripture says

You wish our destruction because we worship Him as God...it is the religion of Cain.

You ignorant fox, calling me a liar. He did not say that he was God---the Jews accused him of that. All he said was that GOD WAS HIS FATHER, as you wrote above in your post. You are so steeped in blindness that you can't even see what the scriptures actually say.

:rip:

KingdomRose
May 16th, 2016, 07:19 PM
[QUOTE=KingdomRose;4705577]

Not if he is a Jew. Then his words are not false. A Jew can legally say he is son of God and not being false because he is speaking as part of the People of Israel aka His son. (Exodsus 4:22,23) "Israel is My son; let My son go that he may serve Me."



Any Jew can say he is son of God and still be not a twisting he does. The Torah confirms that he is son of God. Read Exodus 4:22,23.



The Jews did not kill Jesus. Why would they kill a fellow Jew who came to confirm the Law and the Prophets down to the letter? If you are sincere enough to want to do who contributed for the killing of Jesus on the cross, read Luke 19:37-40 and you will know it. His disciples did it when they acclaimed Jesus king of the Jews at the entrance of Jerusalem. This was a criminal charge bordering on insurrection punishable with crucifixion. Even some of the Pharisees tried to save Jesus by asking him to stop his disciples or he would be arrested. Probably because Jesus was enjoying the parade, he said he could not stop them or the stones would shout. Hence he was arrested and taken to the cross with his verdict INRI commanded by Pilate to be nailed on the top of his cross.



Yes, indeed, they knew that and we know even today that there is nothing wrong with the Jewish claim that we are son of God because the Torah says so. (Exodus 4:22,23)

Why are you saying this to me? I am arguing that Jesus NEVER SAID HE WAS GOD. That is the issue here. Totton says that Jesus said he was God. SHE is twisting the scriptures.

6days
May 16th, 2016, 07:32 PM
He did not say that he was God
Sure He did, and in many ways. He claimed it.... He demonstrated it.
And He was crucified for it.

The Bible both OT and NT proclaim Jesus is God, starting in the first verse.
In the beginning, God created.... Gen. 1:1
apart from him (Jesus) not even one thing came into existence. John 1:3 NWT

dodge
May 16th, 2016, 07:43 PM
[QUOTE=Ben Masada;4705792]

Why are you saying this to me? I am arguing that Jesus NEVER SAID HE WAS GOD. That is the issue here. Totton says that Jesus said he was God. SHE is twisting the scriptures.

Jhn 8:58
Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

dodge
May 16th, 2016, 07:47 PM
Believing on Christ is a Fruit and Gift of the Holy Spirit given in New Birth.

Unless a person is Born Again, he cannot Believe on Christ. Period!

Rom. 8:7-8
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

~~~~~


Jesus said to "repent" and "believe" the gospel.....BELIEVING is what you decide to do or not do. I will stay with what Jesus taught.


Mar 1:15
And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.

Nang
May 16th, 2016, 08:19 PM
Jesus said to "repent" and "believe" the gospel.....BELIEVING is what you decide to do or not do. I will stay with what Jesus taught.


Mar 1:15
And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.

Scripture teaches faith is the gift of God (Ephesians 2:8-10) and repentance is granted by God (II Timothy 2:25; Acts 3:26, 5:31, 11:18

Jesus taught in order for men to be able to repent and exercise faith in their hearts, their hearts, ears, eyes, and minds must first be changed through regeneration (being born again) of the Holy Spirit. John 3:1-8

Robert Pate
May 16th, 2016, 08:41 PM
Trouble is, you don't read my posts! I have dealt with John 10:30 innumerable times.

"I and the Father are one" has the same meaning as JOHN 17:20-23 where we see that Jesus is praying that the disciples would be "one" just as Jesus and the Father were "one." I asked you if that showed that the disciples were also God, which it must if John 10:30 means Jesus is God.

"I do not ask on behalf of these [disciples] alone, but for those also who believe in me through their word; that they may all be one; even as You, Father, are in me and I in You, that they also may be in us. The glory which You have given me I have given to them, that they may be one, just as we are one."

I'm still waiting for an answer. It looks like the disciples are God also, because they would be "one" with Christ and the Father.


John 10:31 shows nothing except the Jews wanted to kill Jesus. They gave him a weak answer as to why they wanted to kill him---because he was "making himself out to be God" (NASB). You'll notice that immediately following this accusation Jesus refuted it. Have you read JOHN 10:34-36? He corrected them, saying, "I AM THE SON OF GOD."

Not God.


Are you going to actually read my response to you?


:think:

Who do you think that was that turned water into wine, healed the sick, fed 5000 with nothing and raised the dead? You are in denial of who Jesus was and what he did.

Unless you believe that Jesus was Lord or God, you will die in your sins.

Robert Pate
May 16th, 2016, 08:48 PM
Scripture teaches faith is the gift of God (Ephesians 2:8-10) and repentance is granted by God (II Timothy 2:25; Acts 3:26, 5:31, 11:18

Jesus taught in order for men to be able to repent and exercise faith in their hearts, their hearts, ears, eyes, and minds must first be changed through regeneration (being born again) of the Holy Spirit. John 3:1-8

That theory that you must first be saved, before you can be saved, is a dead give away that you are a heretic. The Bible teaches no such thing. Some of the Jews that were saved on the day of Pentecost had participated in the crucifixion of Christ, Acts 2:36. People are changed by hearing and believing the Gospel, it is the power of God unto salvation, Romans 1:16.

jamie
May 16th, 2016, 10:20 PM
Who do you think that was that turned water into wine, healed the sick, fed 5000 with nothing and raised the dead? You are in denial of who Jesus was and what he did.



Men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth, a Man attested by God to you by miracles, wonders, and signs which God did through Him in your midst, as you yourselves also know.
(Acts 2:22)

Jesus said he could do nothing of himself. (John 8:28)

Epoisses
May 16th, 2016, 11:05 PM
You think believing is a work?

Nope.

Totton Linnet
May 17th, 2016, 03:48 AM
You ignorant fox, calling me a liar. He did not say that he was God---the Jews accused him of that. All he said was that GOD WAS HIS FATHER, as you wrote above in your post. You are so steeped in blindness that you can't even see what the scriptures actually say.

:rip:

The Jews were right, anyone with half a brain will know that whatever the Father is the Son must be also. Christ is also called the Son of Man, a title which none of us disputes, we know what it means. He is fully man. Being Son of God means He is fully God.

Far from the scripture never stating categorically that Christ is God, every time He is called Son of God [as in begotten of God] He is being titled God.

Why are you calling me names? I have not called you names, if you tell deliberate lies you will be called on it.

The Jews did not take up stones because Christ made Himself greater than Abraham, they took up stones because He said God was His Father thus making Himself equal with God.

Totton Linnet
May 17th, 2016, 04:40 AM
[QUOTE=KingdomRose;4705577]

Not if he is a Jew. Then his words are not false. A Jew can legally say he is son of God and not being false because he is speaking as part of the People of Israel aka His son. (Exodsus 4:22,23) "Israel is My son; let My son go that he may serve Me."



Any Jew can say he is son of God and still be not a twisting he does. The Torah confirms that he is son of God. Read Exodus 4:22,23.



The Jews did not kill Jesus. Why would they kill a fellow Jew who came to confirm the Law and the Prophets down to the letter? If you are sincere enough to want to do who contributed for the killing of Jesus on the cross, read Luke 19:37-40 and you will know it. His disciples did it when they acclaimed Jesus king of the Jews at the entrance of Jerusalem. This was a criminal charge bordering on insurrection punishable with crucifixion. Even some of the Pharisees tried to save Jesus by asking him to stop his disciples or he would be arrested. Probably because Jesus was enjoying the parade, he said he could not stop them or the stones would shout. Hence he was arrested and taken to the cross with his verdict INRI commanded by Pilate to be nailed on the top of his cross.



Yes, indeed, they knew that and we know even today that there is nothing wrong with the Jewish claim that we are son of God because the Torah says so. (Exodus 4:22,23)

But when Jesus said God was His Father He meant that God seeded the virgin's womb....definitely a crime under Jewish law, unless of course it is true.

dodge
May 17th, 2016, 04:07 PM
Scripture teaches faith is the gift of God (Ephesians 2:8-10) and repentance is granted by God (II Timothy 2:25; Acts 3:26, 5:31, 11:18

Jesus taught in order for men to be able to repent and exercise faith in their hearts, their hearts, ears, eyes, and minds must first be changed through regeneration (being born again) of the Holy Spirit. John 3:1-8

Do you know what "repent"is or means ? Repentance is what God requires of everyone that wants or desires to be born again. God made the rules NOT Calvinists.

Robert Pate
May 18th, 2016, 08:21 AM
Humanity has not been given a choice to believe God!

For Faith / Belief in God is a Fruit of the Spirit of God is Given in New Birth Gal 5:22.

The World that the Spirit convicts / convinces of sin is a specific World;
the World that God so Loved that He gave His only begotten Son for in behalf of John 3:16.


Just as Jesus clearly stated:

John 17:9
I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine Eph. 1:4-5; 2 Tim. 1:9.

~~~~~


The God of Calvinism is mean and divisive.

He only saves some and damns the rest to hell. This makes him unjust, unmerciful and unrighteous.

It is NOT humanly possible to have faith in this kind of a God.

serpentdove
May 18th, 2016, 09:00 AM
The God of Calvinism is mean and divisive. He only saves some and damns the rest to hell... He has already saved you or damned you so why repent? :banana: Why pray for the the non-elect? :freak:

Related:

Lordship (http://theologyonline.com/showthread.php?116690-quot-Lordship-Salvation-quot-perverting-the-gospel-of-Christ&p=4634445#post4634445)
Has the Law has been done away with? (http://theologyonline.com/showthread.php?117812-Has-the-Law-has-been-done-away-with&p=4698424#post4698424)
At patrick jane At john w At Nick At SaultoPaul At Musterion At heir At GloryDaz At exminister At Grosnick Marowbe (http://theologyonline.com/showthread.php?117782-patrick-jane-john-w-Nick-SaultoPaul-Musterion-heir-GloryDays-exminister&p=4696093#post4696093)
Must We Confess Every Sin? (http://theologyonline.com/showthread.php?117221-MUST-WE-CONFESS-EVERY-SIN-TO-BE-FORGIVEN&p=4664864&posted=1#post4664864)
Give Your Life to Jesus (http://theologyonline.com/showthread.php?116841-quot-Give-Your-Life-to-Jesus-quot)
How Many on TOL are Grace Gospel Believers? (http://theologyonline.com/showthread.php?117320-HOW-MANY-ON-TOL-ARE-GRACE-GOSPEL-BELIEVERS&p=4668603#post4668603)
Where is Prince Now? (http://theologyonline.com/showthread.php?117565-Where-Is-Prince-Now)
Kirk Cameron: Wives Should 'Honor and Respect and Follow Their Husband's Lead' (http://theologyonline.com/showthread.php?117669-Kirk-Cameron-Wives-Should-Honor-and-Respect-and-Follow-Their-Husband-s-Lead&p=4690117#post4690117)
The Myth of Unmerited Favor and Grace (http://theologyonline.com/showthread.php?117785-The-Myth-of-unMerited-Favor-and-Grace&p=4696353#post4696353)
The Big Switch (http://theologyonline.com/showthread.php?117813-quot-The-Big-Switch-quot&p=4698478#post4698478)


This makes him unjust, unmerciful and unrighteous. It is not humanly possible to have faith in this kind of a God. See:

Does God Elect Everyone? (http://www.vananne.com/armorofthelord/Does%20God%20Elect%20Everyone.pdf)

Epoisses
May 18th, 2016, 09:19 AM
He has already saved you or damned you so why repent? :banana: Why pray for the the non-elect? :freak:

He already knows who is saved and who is lost. God is leading all men to repentance and desires all men to be saved 2Pt. 3:9 1Tim. 2:4. He does not actively damn anyone. Those that believe and teach this are dead stumps incapable of escaping darkness.

Nanja
May 18th, 2016, 02:17 PM
The God of Calvinism is mean and divisive.

He only saves some and damns the rest to hell. This makes him unjust, unmerciful and unrighteous.

It is NOT humanly possible to have faith in this kind of a God.



You blaspheme God all the time!


Only God's Will is Sovereign and controls and determines all others' will.



Ps. 115:3
But our God is in the heavens: he hath done whatsoever he hath pleased.



Job 23:13-14
But he is in one mind, and who can turn him? and what his soul desireth, even that he doeth.
For he performeth the thing that is appointed for me: and many such things are with him.



Dan. 4:35
And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing: and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?

~~~~~

Robert Pate
May 18th, 2016, 03:25 PM
You blaspheme God all the time!


Only God's Will is Sovereign and controls and determines all others' will.



Ps. 115:3
But our God is in the heavens: he hath done whatsoever he hath pleased.



Job 23:13-14
But he is in one mind, and who can turn him? and what his soul desireth, even that he doeth.
For he performeth the thing that is appointed for me: and many such things are with him.



Dan. 4:35
And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing: and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?

~~~~~


You are overlooking the fact that God's sovereignty does not override his just, merciful, righteous, holy nature.

All that God does is right, just and perfect. This is why he is the just judge.

Your Calvinist God is an unjust, unmerciful, unrighteous tyrant that cannot be trusted.

Nanja
May 18th, 2016, 03:53 PM
You are overlooking the fact that God's sovereignty does not override his just, merciful, righteous, holy nature.

All that God does is right, just and perfect. This is why he is the just judge.

Your Calvinist God is an unjust, unmerciful, unrighteous tyrant that cannot be trusted.



YOU are overlooking, in fact ignoring, the scriptures you abhor Dan. 4:35; Job 23:13-14; Ps. 115:3!


You make God unjust, implying that He does not judge Righteously!


Gen. 18:25
That be far from thee to do after this manner, to slay the righteous with the wicked: and that the righteous should be as the wicked, that be far from thee: Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?


God cannot condemn anyone Christ died for [Sheep John 10:11, 15], along with the wicked He did not die for [goats; Mat. 25:41], for the sins of the Sheep were already imputed to Christ in their stead Is. 53:6!

~~~~~

Robert Pate
May 18th, 2016, 04:57 PM
YOU are overlooking, in fact ignoring, the scriptures you abhor Dan. 4:35; Job 23:13-14; Ps. 115:3!


You make God unjust, implying that He does not judge Righteously!


Gen. 18:25
That be far from thee to do after this manner, to slay the righteous with the wicked: and that the righteous should be as the wicked, that be far from thee: Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?


God cannot condemn anyone Christ died for [Sheep John 10:11, 15], along with the wicked He did not die for [goats; Mat. 25:41], for the sins of the Sheep were already imputed to Christ in their stead Is. 53:6!

~~~~~

Since you believe that you are one of the elect then why live the Christian life? No need to persevere, Go out and live like the devil.

Nanja
May 18th, 2016, 05:30 PM
Since you believe that you are one of the elect then why live the Christian life? No need to persevere, Go out and live like the devil.



Pate, your words and sentiment are that of a lost man 2 Cor. 4:3-4. :Plain:


Christ is the Center of my Life.

His Spirit is Alive in me Rom. 8:14-17!


I praise and worship Him with my whole soul,
and long to finally see my God and Saviour face to face!

Praise Him!

~~~~~

Robert Pate
May 19th, 2016, 07:43 AM
Pate, your words and sentiment are that of a lost man 2 Cor. 4:3-4. :Plain:


Christ is the Center of my Life.

His Spirit is Alive in me Rom. 8:14-17!


I praise and worship Him with my whole soul,
and long to finally see my God and Saviour face to face!

Praise Him!

~~~~~


If Christ was the center of your life you would not need Calvinism.

Calvinism is an insult to God and his Son Jesus Christ.

No one and I mean no one, can trust in a God that condemns people to hell for no reason other than they were born after Adam.

Epoisses
May 19th, 2016, 07:57 AM
If Christ was the center of your life you would not need Calvinism.

Calvinism is an insult to God and his Son Jesus Christ.

No one and I mean no one, can trust in a God that condemns people to hell for no reason other than they were born after Adam.

He believes in chance. Calvinists are spiritual gamblers who spin the roulette wheel and hope the 'elect' comes up.

beloved57
May 19th, 2016, 02:24 PM
Since you believe that you are one of the elect then why live the Christian life? No need to persevere, Go out and live like the devil.

You living like the devil by promoting a false gospel.

beloved57
May 19th, 2016, 02:26 PM
If Christ was the center of your life you would not need Calvinism.

Calvinism is an insult to God and his Son Jesus Christ.

No one and I mean no one, can trust in a God that condemns people to hell for no reason other than they were born after Adam.

You are the one who teaches that those Christ died for can wind up in hell for their sins in unbelief. That's a insult to God.

beloved57
May 19th, 2016, 02:28 PM
If Christ was the center of your life you would not need Calvinism.

Calvinism is an insult to God and his Son Jesus Christ.

No one and I mean no one, can trust in a God that condemns people to hell for no reason other than they were born after Adam.


Pate, your words and sentiment are that of a lost man 2 Cor. 4:3-4. :Plain:


Christ is the Center of my Life.

His Spirit is Alive in me Rom. 8:14-17!


I praise and worship Him with my whole soul,
and long to finally see my God and Saviour face to face!

Praise Him!

~~~~~

We have a good hope through Grace!

Nanja
May 19th, 2016, 03:02 PM
We have a good hope through Grace!


Yep, and Eternal Glory follows Grace, because of our Eternal Union in Christ 2 Tim. 1:9!


Ps. 84:11
For the LORD God is a sun and shield: the LORD will give grace and glory: no good thing will he withhold from them that walk uprightly.


Rom. 8:16-17
The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

~~~~~

beloved57
May 19th, 2016, 03:08 PM
Yep, and Eternal Glory follows Grace, because of our Eternal Union in Christ 2 Tim. 1:9!


Ps. 84:11
For the LORD God is a sun and shield: the LORD will give grace and glory: no good thing will he withhold from them that walk uprightly.


Rom. 8:16-17
The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

~~~~~
Ps 84:11 Now who are them that walk uprightly?

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Nanja
May 19th, 2016, 03:20 PM
Ps 84:11 Now who are them that walk uprightly?

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Those who were reconciled to God even while being enemies and unbelievers Rom. 5:10.
Thus He sees them as Righteous Is.53:6; Rom. 4:8!

~~~~~

Robert Pate
May 19th, 2016, 03:43 PM
Those who were reconciled to God even while being enemies and unbelievers Rom. 5:10.
Thus He sees them as Righteous Is.53:6; Rom. 4:8!

~~~~~

You are twisting and distorting the scripture again.

The scripture says that God has reconciled the whole world unto himself by Jesus Christ. This includes sinners, enemies, unbelievers, all have been reconciled unto God.

However, this reconciliation is not yours if you do not receive it by faith. This is why Paul said, "Be Ye reconciled unto God" 2 Corinthians 5:20.

This is something that you need to do if you want to be saved.

beloved57
May 19th, 2016, 03:48 PM
Those who were reconciled to God even while being enemies and unbelievers Rom. 5:10.
Thus He sees them as Righteous Is.53:6; Rom. 4:8!

~~~~~
Absolutely Absolutely Absolutely!

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Robert Pate
May 19th, 2016, 03:52 PM
Absolutely Absolutely Absolutely!

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Nothing, absolutely nothing is yours if you don't receive it.

beloved57
May 19th, 2016, 03:53 PM
Nothing, absolutely nothing is yours if you don't receive it.
That's salvation by works, by what a person does

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Nanja
May 19th, 2016, 04:01 PM
You are twisting and distorting the scripture again.

The scripture says that God has reconciled the whole world unto himself by Jesus Christ. This includes sinners, enemies, unbelievers, all have been reconciled unto God.

However, this reconciliation is not yours if you do not receive it by faith. This is why Paul said, "Be Ye reconciled unto God" 2 Corinthians 5:20.

This is something that you need to do if you want to be saved.


No, you're the one who distorts scripture to support your false gospel of works of man.

Receiving is a work. No work of the flesh can please God Rom. 8:8!

~~~~~

Robert Pate
May 19th, 2016, 07:42 PM
No, you're the one who distorts scripture to support your false gospel of works of man.

Receiving is a work. No work of the flesh can please God Rom. 8:8!

~~~~~


You are in direct contradiction to the words of Jesus.

"Whosoever that believes in Jesus should not perish, but have everlasting life" John 3:16.

"But as many as received him, to them gave he the power to become the sons of God" John 1:12.

You are hell bound because you have never received him as your savior.

Nanja
May 20th, 2016, 05:04 AM
You are in direct contradiction to the words of Jesus.

"Whosoever that believes in Jesus should not perish, but have everlasting life" John 3:16.

"But as many as received him, to them gave he the power to become the sons of God" John 1:12.

You are hell bound because you have never received him as your savior.


Be concerned for yourself!

You have not been given understanding of any of the scriptures you post, and repeatedly preach salvation by the works of man.



The Gospel is the Good News of Salvation exclusively to all the Chosen Sons / Children of God Eph. 1:4-5,13.

Believing on Christ and receiving Him are the Fruit Gal. 5:22 and evidence of New Birth; of the Spirit's Powerful Work in all the Election of Grace 2 Tim. 1:9: Christ's Sheep He gave His Life for John 10:11,15.



So you see, receiving Christ does not mean that a spiritually dead sinner, like yourself, can exercise his own freewill choice to be become saved. But receiving Christ is Given to all His Elect Saints Col. 1:12; John 1:12; John 3:27.

~~~~~

Robert Pate
May 20th, 2016, 06:02 AM
Be concerned for yourself!

You have not been given understanding of any of the scriptures you post, and repeatedly preach salvation by the works of man.



The Gospel is the Good News of Salvation exclusively to all the Chosen Sons / Children of God Eph. 1:4-5,13.

Believing on Christ and receiving Him are the Fruit Gal. 5:22 and evidence of New Birth; of the Spirit's Powerful Work in all the Election of Grace 2 Tim. 1:9: Christ's Sheep He gave His Life for John 10:11,15.



So you see, receiving Christ does not mean that a spiritually dead sinner, like yourself, can exercise his own freewill choice to be become saved. But receiving Christ is Given to all His Elect Saints Col. 1:12; John 1:12; John 3:27.

~~~~~


God so loved all of the world and did not want any to perish, so he made salvation available to ALL MEN.

"Who will have ALL MEN to be saved and to come unto the knowledge of the truth" 1 Timothy 2:4.

Nanja
May 20th, 2016, 06:55 AM
God so loved all of the world and did not want any to perish, so he made salvation available to ALL MEN.

"Who will have ALL MEN to be saved and to come unto the knowledge of the truth" 1 Timothy 2:4.



Originally Posted by Nanja View Post
Be concerned for yourself!

You have not been given understanding of any of the scriptures you post, and repeatedly preach salvation by the works of man.



~~~~~

patrick jane
May 20th, 2016, 06:59 AM
~~~~~
You teach no free will and salvation by works

Nanja
May 20th, 2016, 07:05 AM
You teach no free will and salvation by works


Salvation has nothing to do with a man's own will, nor of any works whatsoever he does.


Those that preach Salvation is by the freewill of man, and of works done in the flesh, is antichrist!

~~~~~

Robert Pate
May 20th, 2016, 07:33 AM
All through the Old Testament and into the New Testament people are making their own decisions. They are not a bunch of mindless robots that cannot think for themselves.

Jesus asked the disciples to follow him, Matthew 4:19. They were not forced to follow him. God forces no one to believe in him or his Son Jesus Christ. What kind of a God is that who has to force people to believe in him. It is not the God of the Bible.