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Jacob
July 16th, 2015, 11:31 AM
The Bible is the word of God. All 66 books of the Bible are the word of God. The Bible is made up of 66 books. They are, and it is, the word of God. The Bible is the word of God.

Discuss.

The following link is to a thread that talks about these books and how they together are what we find in the Bible, spoken of variously. I provide it in case a reader has not received an introduction to the Bible or the books found therein.

The different ways of describing or referring to different parts of the Bible (http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=110698)

Squeaky
July 16th, 2015, 11:55 AM
Yes and this is what is in them books.
ABOUT THE NEW TESTAMENT
Heb 7:12
12 For the priesthood being changed, of necessity there is also a change of the law.
John 10:7-9
7 Then Jesus said to them again, "Most assuredly, I say to you, I am the door of the sheep.
8 "All who ever came before Me are thieves and robbers, but the sheep did not hear them.
9 "I am the door. If anyone enters by Me, he will be saved, and will go in and out and find pasture.
Luke 16:16
16 "The law and the prophets were until John. Since that time the kingdom of God has been preached, and everyone is pressing into it.
Heb 10:19-21
19 Therefore, brethren, having boldness to enter the Holiest by the blood of Jesus,
20 by a new and living way which He consecrated for us, through the veil, that is, His flesh,
21 and having a High Priest over the house of God,
Heb 7:28
28 For the law appoints as high priests men who have weakness, but the word of the oath, which came after the law, appoints the Son who has been perfected forever.
Matt 11:12-13
12 "And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffers violence, and the violent take it by force.
13 "For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John.
Rom 4:15
15 because the law brings about wrath; for where there is no law there is no transgression.
Rom 13:10
10 Love does no harm to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.
1 Cor 9:21
21 to those who are without law, as without law (not being without law toward God, but under law toward Christ), that I might win those who are without law;
John 10:8-9
8 "All who ever came before Me are thieves and robbers, but the sheep did not hear them.
9 "I am the door. If anyone enters by Me, he will be saved, and will go in and out and find pasture.
Heb 8:13
13 In that He says, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.
II Jn 1:9-11
9 Whoever transgresses and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God. He who abides in the doctrine of Christ has both the Father and the Son.
10 If anyone comes to you and does not bring this doctrine, do not receive him into your house nor greet him;
11 for he who greets him shares in his evil deeds.
Rom 15:4
4 For whatever things were written before were written for our learning, that we through the patience and comfort of the Scriptures might have hope.
Heb 8:13
13 In that He says, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.
Heb 8:7
7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then no place would have been sought for a second.
Heb 7:12
12 For the priesthood being changed, of necessity there is also a change of the law.
Mark 16:15-16
15 And He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature.
16 "He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.
Matt 10:16-19
16 "Behold, I send you out as sheep in the midst of wolves. Therefore be wise as serpents and harmless as doves.
17 "But beware of men, for they will deliver you up to councils and scourge you in their synagogues.
18 "You will be brought before governors and kings for My sake, as a testimony to them and to the Gentiles.
19 "But when they deliver you up, do not worry about how or what you should speak. For it will be given to you in that hour what you should speak;
2 Cor 3:4-6
4 And we have such trust through Christ toward God.
5 Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think of anything as being from ourselves, but our sufficiency is from God,
6 who also made us sufficient as ministers of the new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.
(NKJ)
xxxThis is a revelation about the new testament that I received from the Holy Spirit.Now to walk after the Holy Spirit is to live by the verses He gives me at the time He gives them to me. And as you can see this is a revelation where Jesus enters also. Jesus said where two or three are put together I am in the midst of them. So a revelation where many verses are given we know that Jesus is giving them to us through the Holy Spirit. And we call this a revelation of Jesus Christ.

1 Cor 15:1-4

1 Moreover, brethren, I declare to you the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received and in which you stand,
2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast that word which I preached to you-- unless you believed in vain.
3 For I delivered to you first of all that which I also received: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures,
4 and that He was buried, and that He rose again the third day according to the Scriptures,
(NKJ)

Rom 1:16
16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew first and also for the Greek.
(NKJ)


Luke 9:62
62 But Jesus said to him, "No one, having put his hand to the plow, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God."
(NKJ)

Heb 8:7
7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then no place would have been sought for a second.
(NKJ)


Gal 1:6-12
6 I marvel that you are turning away so soon from Him who called you in the grace of Christ, to a different gospel,
7 which is not another; but there are some who trouble you and want to pervert the gospel of Christ.
8 But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed.
9 As we have said before, so now I say again, if anyone preaches any other gospel to you than what you have received, let him be accursed.
10 For do I now persuade men, or God? Or do I seek to please men? For if I still pleased men, I would not be a bondservant of Christ.
11 But I make known to you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached by me is not according to man.
12 For I neither received it from man, nor was I taught it, but it came through the revelation of Jesus Christ.
(NKJ)

Col 2:11-14
11 In Him you were also circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of the sins of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ,
12 buried with Him in baptism, in which you also were raised with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead.
13 And you, being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses,
14 having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.
(NKJ)

Heb 10:9
9 then He said, "Behold, I have come to do Your will, O God." He takes away the first that He may establish the second.
(NKJ)

Rom 7:6
6 But now we have been delivered from the law, having died to what we were held by, so that we should serve in the newness of the Spirit and not in the oldness of the letter.
(NKJ)

Gal 5:1-4

1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty by which Christ has made us free, and do not be entangled again with a yoke of bondage.
2 Indeed I, Paul, say to you that if you become circumcised, Christ will profit you nothing.
3 And I testify again to every man who becomes circumcised that he is a debtor to keep the whole law.
4 You have become estranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.
(NKJ)


Rom 5:16
16 And the gift is not like that which came through the one who sinned. For the judgment which came from one offense resulted in condemnation, but the free gift which came from many offenses resulted in justification.
(NKJ)

Rom 7:6
6 But now we have been delivered from the law, having died to what we were held by, so that we should serve in the newness of the Spirit and not in the oldness of the letter.
(NKJ)

Squeaky
July 16th, 2015, 11:56 AM
Yes and this is what is in there.

ABOUT THE OLD TESTAMENT
FROM THE NEW TESTAMENT
Heb 8:13
13 In that He says, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.
2 Cor 3:14-15
14 But their minds were blinded. For until this day the same veil remains unlifted in the reading of the Old Testament, because the veil is taken away in Christ.
15 But even to this day, when Moses is read, a veil lies on their heart.
Gal 2:21
21 "I do not set aside the grace of God; for if righteousness comes through the law, then Christ died in vain."
Gal 4:4-5
4 But when the fullness of the time had come, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the law,
5 to redeem those who were under the law, that we might receive the adoption as sons.
John 10:8-9
8 "All who ever came before Me are thieves and robbers, but the sheep did not hear them.
9 "I am the door. If anyone enters by Me, he will be saved, and will go in and out and find pasture.
1 Cor 10:1-12
1 Moreover, brethren, I do not want you to be unaware that all our fathers were under the cloud, all passed through the sea,
2 all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea,
3 all ate the same spiritual food,
4 and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them, and that Rock was Christ.
5 But with most of them God was not well pleased, for their bodies were scattered in the wilderness.
6 Now these things became our examples, to the intent that we should not lust after evil things as they also lusted.
7 And do not become idolaters as were some of them. As it is written, "The people sat down to eat and drink, and rose up to play."
8 Nor let us commit sexual immorality, as some of them did, and in one day twenty-three thousand fell;
9 nor let us tempt Christ, as some of them also tempted, and were destroyed by serpents;
10 nor complain, as some of them also complained, and were destroyed by the destroyer.
11 Now all these things happened to them as examples, and they were written for our admonition, on whom the ends of the ages have come.
12 Therefore let him who thinks he stands take heed lest he fall.
Rom 13:8
8 Owe no one anything except to love one another, for he who loves another has fulfilled the law.
John 6:63
63 "It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life.
John 4:23-24
23 "But the hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for the Father is seeking such to worship Him.
24 "God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth."
John 17:17
17 "Sanctify them by Your truth. Your word is truth.
John 3:34
34 "For He whom God has sent speaks the words of God, for God does not give the Spirit by measure.
John 3:33
33 "He who has received His testimony has certified that God is true.
John 3:35-36
35 "The Father loves the Son, and has given all things into His hand.
36 "He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."
Rom 8:1-2
1 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit.
2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death.
Rom 8:3-8
3 For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh,
4 that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.
5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit.
6 For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be.
8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
John 14:26
26 "But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all things that I said to you.
Gal 2:19-21
19 "For I through the law died to the law that I might live to God.
20 "I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me.
21 "I do not set aside the grace of God; for if righteousness comes through the law, then Christ died in vain."
Gal 3:24-25
24 Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
25 But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.
Gal 5:1-5
1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty by which Christ has made us free, and do not be entangled again with a yoke of bondage.
2 Indeed I, Paul, say to you that if you become circumcised, Christ will profit you nothing.
3 And I testify again to every man who becomes circumcised that he is a debtor to keep the whole law.
4 You have become estranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.
5 For we through the Spirit eagerly wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.
Gal 4:21
21 Tell me, you who desire to be under the law, do you not hear the law?
Rom 7:4-6
4 Therefore, my brethren, you also have become dead to the law through the body of Christ, that you may be married to another-- to Him who was raised from the dead, that we should bear fruit to God.
5 For when we were in the flesh, the sinful passions which were aroused by the law were at work in our members to bear fruit to death.
6 But now we have been delivered from the law, having died to what we were held by, so that we should serve in the newness of the Spirit and not in the oldness of the letter.
Rom 13:10
10 Love does no harm to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.
1 Pet 2:19-21
19 For this is commendable, if because of conscience toward God one endures grief, suffering wrongfully.
20 For what credit is it if, when you are beaten for your faults, you take it patiently? But when you do good and suffer, if you take it patiently, this is commendable before God.
21 For to this you were called, because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that you should follow His steps:
II Jn 1:9-11
9 Whoever transgresses and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God. He who abides in the doctrine of Christ has both the Father and the Son.
10 If anyone comes to you and does not bring this doctrine, do not receive him into your house nor greet him;
11 for he who greets him shares in his evil deeds.
John 1:17
17 For the law was given through Moses, but grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.
(NKJ)
xxx Jesus wants everyone who is going to be a christian to understand that the new covenant(testament) is just that new. That you cant go back and keep any part of the old testament that Jesus hasnt brought over to the new testament. Jesus new what to bring over man doesnt. But the old testament has to be obsolete to you in order for you to get the fullness of the new testament. 11John 1-9 is very specific if you dont abide(live) in the new testament you dont have the real God. There IS a veil over the old testament that remains to THIS day.
If Jesus were in the old testament this verse could only be meant for God and the angels. But Jesus wasnt in the old testament.

John 10:8-9
8 "All who ever came before Me are thieves and robbers, but the sheep did not hear them.
9 "I am the door. If anyone enters by Me, he will be saved, and will go in and out and find pasture.

xxx Jesus nailed the old testament to the cross. If you have nailed the old testament to your cross, you are in Christ.

Col 2:13-14
13 And you, being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses,
14 having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.
(NKJ)

Acts 15:10
10 "Now therefore, why do you test God by putting a yoke on the neck of the disciples which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?
(NKJ)

Acts 15:24-29
24 Since we have heard that some who went out from us have troubled you with words, unsettling your souls, saying, 'You must be circumcised and keep the law'-- to whom we gave no such commandment--
25 it seemed good to us, being assembled with one accord, to send chosen men to you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul,
26 men who have risked their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ.
27 We have therefore sent Judas and Silas, who will also report the same things by word of mouth.
28 For it seemed good to the Holy Spirit, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things:
29 that you abstain from things offered to idols, from blood, from things strangled, and from sexual immorality. If you keep yourselves from these, you will do well. Farewell.
(NKJ)


Rom 2:1-29

1 Therefore you are inexcusable, O man, whoever you are who judge, for in whatever you judge another you condemn yourself; for you who judge practice the same things.
2 But we know that the judgment of God is according to truth against those who practice such things.
3 And do you think this, O man, you who judge those practicing such things, and doing the same, that you will escape the judgment of God?
4 Or do you despise the riches of His goodness, forbearance, and longsuffering, not knowing that the goodness of God leads you to repentance?
5 But in accordance with your hardness and your impenitent heart you are treasuring up for yourself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God,
6 who "will render to each one according to his deeds":
7 eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality;
8 but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness-- indignation and wrath,
9 tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek;
10 but glory, honor, and peace to everyone who works what is good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.
11 For there is no partiality with God.
12 For as many as have sinned without law will also perish without law, and as many as have sinned in the law will be judged by the law
13 (for not the hearers of the law are just in the sight of God, but the doers of the law will be justified;
14 for when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves,
15 who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves their thoughts accusing or else excusing them)
16 in the day when God will judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ, according to my gospel.
17 Indeed you are called a Jew, and rest on the law, and make your boast in God,
18 and know His will, and approve the things that are excellent, being instructed out of the law,
19 and are confident that you yourself are a guide to the blind, a light to those who are in darkness,
20 an instructor of the foolish, a teacher of babes, having the form of knowledge and truth in the law.
21 You, therefore, who teach another, do you not teach yourself? You who preach that a man should not steal, do you steal?
22 You who say, "Do not commit adultery," do you commit adultery? You who abhor idols, do you rob temples?
23 You who make your boast in the law, do you dishonor God through breaking the law?
24 For "The name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles because of you," as it is written.
25 For circumcision is indeed profitable if you keep the law; but if you are a breaker of the law, your circumcision has become uncircumcision.
26 Therefore, if an uncircumcised man keeps the righteous requirements of the law, will not his uncircumcision be counted as circumcision?
27 And will not the physically uncircumcised, if he fulfills the law, judge you who, even with your written code and circumcision, are a transgressor of the law?
28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh;
29 but he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the Spirit, not in the letter; whose praise is not from men but from God.
(NKJ)


Heb 8:7
7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then no place would have been sought for a second.
(NKJ)

Heb 10:1

1 For the law, having a shadow of the good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with these same sacrifices, which they offer continually year by year, make those who approach perfect.
(NKJ)


Col 2:11-14
11 In Him you were also circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of the sins of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ,
12 buried with Him in baptism, in which you also were raised with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead.
13 And you, being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses,
14 having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.
(NKJ)


Heb 10:9
9 then He said, "Behold, I have come to do Your will, O God." He takes away the first that He may establish the second.
(NKJ)


Gal 5:1-4

1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty by which Christ has made us free, and do not be entangled again with a yoke of bondage.
2 Indeed I, Paul, say to you that if you become circumcised, Christ will profit you nothing.
3 And I testify again to every man who becomes circumcised that he is a debtor to keep the whole law.
4 You have become estranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.
(NKJ)

Dan Emanuel
July 16th, 2015, 12:14 PM
What is you're reasoning for believing that Martin Luther and the reformer's were correct, in editing the Bible down from 73 book's to 66? For 1,500 year's the Church read a Bible with 73 book's --do you think that Luther and the reformer's were given a new revelation from God, that told them that the Greek Old Testament was not really part of the Bible?


Daniel

HisServant
July 16th, 2015, 12:47 PM
The Bible is the word of God. All 66 books of the Bible are the word of God. The Bible is made up of 66 books. They are, and it is, the word of God. The Bible is the word of God.

Discuss.

The following link is to a thread that talks about these books and how they together are what we find in the Bible, spoken of variously. I provide it in case a reader has not received an introduction to the Bible or the books found therein.

The different ways of describing or referring to different parts of the Bible (http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=110698)

I think the criteria used for the assembly of the bible was reasonable, but it wasn't the end all to be all. By calling the bible the end, you are basically saying that God died or that God has no interested in communicating with his creatures anymore... so you need to be careful.

Anyhow, neither Jesus or God ever promised a Bible, so you need to take it with a grain of salt.

Jacob
July 16th, 2015, 12:48 PM
What is the Canon of the Old Testament, or the TaNaKh the Hebrew Bible?

aikido7
July 16th, 2015, 12:58 PM
The Bible is the word of God. All 66 books of the Bible are the word of God. The Bible is made up of 66 books. They are, and it is, the word of God. The Bible is the word of God.

Discuss.

The following link is to a thread that talks about these books and how they together are what we find in the Bible, spoken of variously. I provide it in case a reader has not received an introduction to the Bible or the books found therein.

The different ways of describing or referring to different parts of the Bible (http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=110698)I believe that the Bible contains the words of God. It is a man-made product that contains the inspired writings of people's interpretation of God.

The metaphors for God in the Bible include an eagle, a mountain, a storm, breath, wind, a potter, an old woman, and many other words that the author(s) felt were descriptive of Yahweh.

But Jesus of Nazareth is the norm of the Bible.

aikido7
July 16th, 2015, 12:59 PM
What is the Canon of the Old Testament, or the TaNaKh the Hebrew Bible?It contains a revolutionary moral epic of justice for all and the powers and principalities of the world held in check.

Jacob
July 16th, 2015, 01:01 PM
The question was about the Biblical canon.

Dan Emanuel
July 16th, 2015, 01:01 PM
What is the Canon of the Old Testament, or the TaNaKh the Hebrew Bible?What is the Canon of the whole Bible, according to our spiritual ancestor's the early Church? Does it or does it not contain 73 book's? Was Martin Luther visited by an angel, who told him that they're have really only been 66 book's all along, and that the whole Church was misled or deceived or just wrong about the Greek Old Testament book's?


Daniel

Jacob
July 16th, 2015, 01:05 PM
What do we know about the establishment of the Jewish canon? What do we know about the Biblical canon?

aikido7
July 16th, 2015, 01:06 PM
The question was about the Biblical canon.And the canon is the words that were accepted by the church hierarchy.

Gospels that were condemned or feared were left out.

And, by the way, the canon is different for different denominations.

I am sorry if such information is disruptive or blasphemous to you. I have not yet found the perfect way to share Christian history and tradition in a way that is non-threatening.

Dan Emanuel
July 16th, 2015, 01:13 PM
What do we know about the establishment of the Jewish canon? What do we know about the Biblical canon?We know the Churches' biblical canon had 73 book's, for about 1,500 year's. Why are you so confident that Martin Luther and the reformer's are right, in cutting out seven book's? What is there reason? Do you know what it is? And if you don't even know what it is, why do you believe it so much?


Daniel

HisServant
July 16th, 2015, 01:30 PM
We know the Churches' biblical canon had 73 book's, for about 1,500 year's. Why are you so confident that Martin Luther and the reformer's are right, in cutting out seven book's? What is there reason? Do you know what it is? And if you don't even know what it is, why do you believe it so much?


Daniel

Yes it did, but Rome never considered all 73 books to have the same teaching authority... the Apocryphal books have always been considered more literature than scripture... so removing them is no big deal. Besides they are readily available if you want them... they shouldn't be regarded as authoritative.

Dan Emanuel
July 16th, 2015, 01:33 PM
Yes it did, but Rome never considered all 73 books to have the same teaching authority... the Apocryphal books have always been considered more literature than scripture...Whats you're evidence for this?

...so removing them is no big deal. Besides they are readily available if you want them... they shouldn't be regarded as authoritative.Private interpretation of them, or of any other scripture, should never be regarded as authoritative.


Daniel

Daniel1611
July 16th, 2015, 01:37 PM
Whats you're evidence for this?
Private interpretation of them, or of any other scripture, should never be regarded as authoritative.


Daniel

The apocrypha was translated from Latin, not its original language. It was not considered inspired, which is evidenced by the KJV Translators who said it was not considered authoritative but more a reference point. This is also why they put it between the OT and the NT. If the scholars who translated the KJV weren't aware of it being considered inspired and neither did Luther, Tyndale etc, then it probably wasn't.

HisServant
July 16th, 2015, 01:41 PM
Whats you're evidence for this?
Private interpretation of them, or of any other scripture, should never be regarded as authoritative.


Daniel

Considering that the ONLY thing that is authoritative is the Holy Spirit, I get a kick out of your hair splitting.

Rome has no authority, my pastor has no authority... no one has authority.

Sorry if that pops your balloon.

As far as the apocryphal books not being authoritative... just check with your church.

Dan Emanuel
July 16th, 2015, 01:41 PM
The apocrypha was translated from Latin, not its original language...Where?

...It was not considered inspired, which is evidenced by the KJV Translators..."Evidenced by" what a bunch of protestant's did/said? Thats begging the question.

...who said it was not considered authoritative but more a reference point. This is also why they put it between the OT and the NT. If the scholars who translated the KJV weren't aware of it being considered inspired and neither did Luther, Tyndale etc, then it probably wasn't."Weren't aware?" If they weren't aware that the Bible had 73 book's in it for 1,500 year's, what kind of scholar's are they? And I notice a distinct lack of any Church bishop's in all of this too . . . .


Daniel

HisServant
July 16th, 2015, 01:43 PM
Where?
"Evidenced by" what a bunch of protestant's did/said? Thats begging the question.
"Weren't aware?" If they weren't aware that the Bible had 73 book's in it for 1,500 year's, what kind of scholar's are they? And I notice a distinct lack of any Church bishop's in all of this too . . . .


Daniel

Protestants did not translate the KJV... (i know I am nit picking) but its an Anglican Bible.. Anglicans had no part in the reformation and are the result of the decision of a single King.

They are no more protestant than the eastern orthodox churches.

Daniel1611
July 16th, 2015, 01:44 PM
Where?
"Evidenced by" what a bunch of protestant's did/said? Thats begging the question.
"Weren't aware?" If they weren't aware that the Bible had 73 book's in it for 1,500 year's, what kind of scholar's are they? And I notice a distinct lack of any Church bishop's in all of this too . . . .


Daniel

What do you mean a lack of Bishops? That Bishops weren't involved in creating the cannon?

Dan Emanuel
July 16th, 2015, 01:44 PM
Considering that the ONLY thing that is authoritative is the Holy Spirit, I get a kick out of your hair splitting...Indeed, and what has He actually authoritatively said is authoritative?

...Rome has no authority, my pastor has no authority... no one has authority...What is a Church "bishop"/"overseer"/"elder" then, if the position has no teaching authority?

...Sorry if that pops your balloon...:)

...As far as the apocryphal books not being authoritative... just check with your church.The papacy declare's that they're are 73 book's in the Churches' biblical canon, each being authoritative.


Daniel

Dan Emanuel
July 16th, 2015, 01:47 PM
Protestants did not translate the KJV... (i know I am nit picking) but its an Anglican Bible.. Anglicans had no part in the reformation and are the result of the decision of a single King.

They are no more protestant than the eastern orthodox churches.The English church's split with the papacy in a more organized manner than did the earlier European protestant's, but they still protested as they split. And Henry was heavily influenced by protestant thought when he made his choice.


Daniel

Dan Emanuel
July 16th, 2015, 01:49 PM
What do you mean a lack of Bishops? That Bishops weren't involved in creating the cannon?Bishop's certainly were involved in that (the 73-book canon), but they were nowhere involved in the protestant/reformer decision to snip the seven book's of the Greek Old Testament from the Church Bible.


Daniel

Daniel1611
July 16th, 2015, 01:56 PM
Bishop's certainly were involved in that (the 73-book canon), but they were nowhere involved in the protestant/reformer decision to snip the seven book's of the Greek Old Testament from the Church Bible.


Daniel

It was deffinitey pastors who decided not to preach from the apocrypha as if they were inspired. Many Translators were preachers, even if they didn't all pastor churches. Some if them probably did. We don't have full biographies for all if them to know for sure. But the pastors preached from what was considered scripture.

Dan Emanuel
July 16th, 2015, 02:00 PM
It was deffinitey pastors who decided not to preach from the apocrypha as if they were inspired. Many Translators were preachers, even if they didn't all pastor churches. Some if them probably did. We don't have full biographies for all if them to know for sure. But the pastors preached from what was considered scripture.I said "bishop's" and not unqualified "pastor's" for a reason. Scripturally the "bishop's"/"overseer's"/"edler's" were at the top of the Church teaching/pastoring hierarchy, and no Church bishop's were involved in trimming the Bible from 73 down to 66 book's.


Daniel

Daniel1611
July 16th, 2015, 02:02 PM
I said "bishop's" and not unqualified pastor's for a reason. Scripturally the "bishop's"/"overseer's"/"edler's" were at the top of the Church teaching/pastoring hierarchy, and no Church bishop's were involved in trimming the Bible from 73 down to 66 book's.


Daniel

A bishop is a pastor. Someone that pastors a church is a bishop. These Bishops not preaching from the apocrypha as divinely inspired was their part in them being removed.

HisServant
July 16th, 2015, 02:02 PM
The English church's split with the papacy in a more organized manner than did the earlier European protestant's, but they still protested as they split. And Henry was heavily influenced by protestant thought when he made his choice.


Daniel

The ONLY reason they split was the Pope would not give Henry another annulment or divorce so he could marry another.

HisServant
July 16th, 2015, 02:04 PM
A bishop is a pastor. Someone that pastors a church is a bishop. These Bishops not preaching from the apocrypha as divinely inspired was their part in them being removed.

The word bishop is a translation error. King James required the KJV to not change it to a more accurate word which would be elder.

He did this to support the existing hierarchy of his church. This was even indicated in the original preface to the 1611 AV. The AV had to conform to the existing doctrines of the Anglican church and he to support its existing hierarchy by not correcting ecclesiastic words from the older translations (Geneva, Great and Bishops's Bibles) that the AV was merely a revision of.

Daniel1611
July 16th, 2015, 02:06 PM
The word bishop is a translation error. King James required the KJV to not change it to a more accurate word which would be elder.

He did this to support the existing hierarchy of his church.

Thank you for correcting the brilliant men that translated the Bible. I'm sure your Greek is much better.

Regardless, pastor, bishop, elder are all basically the same. The Bible uses them interchangeably

HisServant
July 16th, 2015, 02:08 PM
Thank you for correcting the brilliant men that translated the Bible. I'm sure your Greek is much better.

Regardless, pastor, bishop, elder are all basically the same. The Bible uses them interchangeably

It's more the other way.. the translators rendered the same greek/hebrew word into different english words based on their doctrinal leanings.

As far as saying the KJV translators were brilliant men... you should do some research on that... many were alcoholics and were hamstrung by the 14 restrictions the King and Archbishop of Canterbury placed on them.

Anyhow, they really weren't a translation team at all... the AV represented no new work, it was just a refresh of the hard work done by the previous translators of the bibles (Great, Geneva and Bishops Bibles) they were basically only reviewing for King James.

Daniel1611
July 16th, 2015, 02:11 PM
It's more the other way.. the translators rendered the same greek/hebrew word into different english words based on their requirements.

As far as saying the KJV translators were brilliant men... you should do some research on that... many were alcoholics and were hamstrung by the 14 restrictions the King and Archbishop of Canterbury placed on them.

Most of them were fluent in multiple languages, some up to 14 languages including some dead languages. You're assertions are more propaganda that I'm used to hearing from the unsaved.

john w
July 16th, 2015, 02:26 PM
Considering that the ONLY thing that is authoritative is the Holy Spirit,

Translated:Subjectivity

Anyone, to you: The ONLY thing that is authoritative is the Holy Spirit,and the Holy Spirit told me, that God has 5 wives, lives on Mars, and "Jesus" was a woman.


You: Right on!!

Jacob
July 16th, 2015, 02:54 PM
The Bible is the word of God. This first involves the TaNaKh meaning the Hebrew Bible. These writings are the holy scriptures or sacred writings.

HisServant
July 16th, 2015, 02:57 PM
Most of them were fluent in multiple languages, some up to 14 languages including some dead languages. You're assertions are more propaganda that I'm used to hearing from the unsaved.

So, that has no influence on the kind of work they did. They were hamstrung by the King and did not do any new work... that is a fact.

Would you like me to post the preamble of the AV 1611 to show you just what they had to do and that in the end it was more of an exercise in conformity then an actual translation?

The individual books of the bible in their original languages as enlightened by the Holy Spirit are the word of God.

john w
July 16th, 2015, 03:17 PM
The individual books of the bible in their original languages....

No scripture says that-you winged that "original languages" jazz, as you just read it on another site.





as enlightened by the Holy Spirit are the word of God.

=subjectivity

I asert that God is Sponge Bob, as that is what the Holy Spirit told me-I was "enlighted."



And you can say NADA, to disprove otherwise, based upon your subjectivity "argument:"


"the ONLY thing that is authoritative is the Holy Spirit.... as enlightened by the Holy Spirit "-you

Daniel1611
July 16th, 2015, 03:31 PM
So, that has no influence on the kind of work they did. They were hamstrung by the King and did not do any new work... that is a fact.

Would you like me to post the preamble of the AV 1611 to show you just what they had to do and that in the end it was more of an exercise in conformity then an actual translation?

The individual books of the bible in their original languages as enlightened by the Holy Spirit are the word of God.

I've read the introduction. The KJV is the word of God in English. Are you fluent in Hebrew and Greek to read the Bible?

HisServant
July 16th, 2015, 07:13 PM
I've read the introduction. The KJV is the word of God in English. Are you fluent in Hebrew and Greek to read the Bible?

Actually yes, when i need to. I use my interlinear bible for all my bible studying.

There is a lot of the language constructs that really have no equivanent in english.... so a lot is lost in any english translation.

Daniel1611
July 16th, 2015, 07:15 PM
Actually yes, when i need to. I use my interlinear bible for all my bible studying.

So God has not preserved his word for all people?

Jacob
July 16th, 2015, 07:24 PM
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tanakh#Books_of_the_Tanakh

"The Tanakh consists of twenty-four books: it counts as one book each Samuel, Kings, Chronicles and Ezra-Nehemiah and counts Trei Asar (תרי עשר, the Twelve Prophets; literally "twelve") as a single book."

Lazy afternoon
July 16th, 2015, 07:32 PM
So God has not preserved his word for all people?

Gods Word is contained in the words of the Bible some seven times over and more.

Men construct their doctrines from a verse here and a verse there, but God does not teach that way.

The whole Bible is harmonious of the truth, when you find it.

Eph 4:11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
Eph 4:12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
Eph 4:13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
Eph 4:14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;
Eph 4:15 But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:
Eph 4:16 From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.
Eph 4:17 This I say therefore, and testify in the Lord, that ye henceforth walk not as other Gentiles walk, in the vanity of their mind,
Eph 4:18 Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart:

LA

Caino
July 16th, 2015, 07:48 PM
The current Bible book list excludes the lost secular history of the Jews. It is the written Word containing many flaws and redactions as should be expected. Nothing touched by man should ever be considered divine.

Jacob
July 16th, 2015, 08:07 PM
Gods Word is contained in the words of the Bible some seven times over and more.

Men construct their doctrines from a verse here and a verse there, but God does not teach that way.

The whole Bible is harmonious of the truth, when you find it.

Eph 4:11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
Eph 4:12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
Eph 4:13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
Eph 4:14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;
Eph 4:15 But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:
Eph 4:16 From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.
Eph 4:17 This I say therefore, and testify in the Lord, that ye henceforth walk not as other Gentiles walk, in the vanity of their mind,
Eph 4:18 Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart:

LA
Who was 1 Peter written to?

1 Peter 2:12 NASB - 12 Keep your behavior excellent among the Gentiles, so that in the thing in which they slander you as evildoers, they may because of your good deeds, as they observe them, glorify God in the day of visitation.
Is it that "among the Gentiles" or "the Gentiles" means that which is a people or the people or nations outside of the land of Israel? Is it specific to those who were not believers or is it general to those who are outside Israel at the time Peter wrote this? I'm not convinced Peter was writing to Gentiles. I believe the people Peter was writing to were either Jewish believers or believers in Jesus as the Messiah, a part of Jesus' church. I recognize Peter's ministry as different from that of Paul, but I believe they both served the Lord and His church in the capacity with which God equipped and empowered them. From Peter being a disciple and ministering as an apostle, to Paul being converted from an unbeliever who persecuted the church to an apostle of the Lord Jesus Christ who was able to turn to the Gentiles and minister in foreign lands.

Ephesians 4:17 NASB - 17 So this I say, and affirm together with the Lord, that you walk no longer just as the Gentiles also walk, in the futility of their mind,

HisServant
July 17th, 2015, 06:42 AM
So God has not preserved his word for all people?

You believe a man made doctrine. God made sure there was still a lot of uncertainty for Christians... otherwise the great instructor is of no use.

Jacob
July 21st, 2015, 02:50 PM
The Bible is the word of God. This first involves the TaNaKh meaning the Hebrew Bible. These writings are the holy scriptures or sacred writings.edit- sacred writings (it did read sacred scriptures).
Can you follow that the holy scriptures or sacred writings that Paul writes of are the TaNaKh rather than the Old Testament writings, though the content is the same?

Romans 1:2 NASB - 2 which He promised beforehand through His prophets in the holy Scriptures,

2 Timothy 3:15 NASB - 15 and that from childhood you have known the sacred writings which are able to give you the wisdom that leads to salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

aikido7
July 21st, 2015, 03:29 PM
It seems we need to recognize that the Bible contains "the words of God" since it was inspired by so many human authors.

God should perhaps be seen as inspiring these different theological frameworks as well as inspiring the very different translations we have for the same biblical passages.

Jacob
July 21st, 2015, 03:41 PM
It seems we need to recognize that the Bible contains "the words of God" since it was inspired by so many human authors.

God should perhaps be seen as inspiring these different theological frameworks as well as inspiring the very different translations we have for the same biblical passages.The scriptures actually say they are inspired by God, not man.

2 Timothy 3:16-17 NASB.

aikido7
July 21st, 2015, 08:17 PM
The scriptures actually say they are inspired by God, not man.

2 Timothy 3:16-17 NASB.Of course!

aikido7
July 21st, 2015, 08:20 PM
Most of them were fluent in multiple languages, some up to 14 languages including some dead languages. You're assertions are more propaganda that I'm used to hearing from the unsaved.How did you get the idea I am "unsaved"?

That sounds like a judgement. Did you mean it that way?


It's an interesting idea that other people claim they can mind-read, guess one's motives, label them or otherwise condemn them.

I think it must come from one's early family dynamics, as most functional folks don't grow up that way.

Anyway, I have not yet found any written evidence that backs up your claim of multi-lingual gospel biblical authors. Would you be willing to direct me where I could read about this as well?

Daniel1611
July 21st, 2015, 08:40 PM
How did you get the idea I am "unsaved"?

That sounds like a judgement. Did you mean it that way?


It's an interesting idea that other people claim they can mind-read, guess one's motives, label them or otherwise condemn them.

I think it must come from one's early family dynamics, as most functional folks don't grow up that way.

Anyway, I have not yet found any written evidence that backs up your claim of multi-lingual gospel biblical authors. Would you be willing to direct me where I could read about this as well?

If I recall, I've heard you question salvation by grace through faith alone in Christ. If you do reject grace by faith alone, biblically, you would be unsaved.

Further, in that post i didnt say anything about the authors' knowledge of language. I was referring to that of the KJV Translators. You can read about them in Translators Revived by Alexander McClure, which you can read here https://archive.org/details/translatorsreviv00mccl

As for the actual authors of the texts, we can safely assume they were multilingual because they were Jews who almost certainly knew Hebrew and the local Aramaic, and they wrote the texts in Greek. Not to mention, they use some Hebrew and Aramaic within their Greek texts. Most and probably all of the NT authors spoke at least three languages: Hebrew, Aramaic and Greek.

aikido7
July 21st, 2015, 08:51 PM
If I recall, I've heard you question salvation by grace through faith alone in Christ. If you do reject grace by faith alone, biblically, you would be unsaved.

Further, in that post i didnt say anything about the authors' knowledge of language. I was referring to that of the KJV Translators. You can read about them in Translators Revived by Alexander McClure, which you can read here https://archive.org/details/translatorsreviv00mccl

As for the actual authors of the texts, we can safely assume they were multilingual because they were Jews who almost certainly knew Hebrew and the local Aramaic, and they wrote the texts in Greek. Not to mention, they use some Hebrew and Aramaic within their Greek texts. Most and probably all of the NT authors spoke at least three languages: Hebrew, Aramaic and Greek.Are you referring to salvation from blood sacrifice? I certainly accept it as theology, but I don't see Jesus (or John the Baptizer) requiring a God of justice who demands blood spilled on the altar for repentance.

If Jesus' own death was required for expropriation of sin, then this notion is contradicted by the fact that he saved many from their sins long before his final journey to Jerusalem.

What do you mean by grace?

I am saved by grace, but if you are talking about a set of requirements for the idea, then you are talking about something but you are certainly not talking about grace.

All the history concerned with languages spoken in the first century says that most folks were illiterate. The only traces of other languages in the gospels are a few short sections that translate some of Jesus' words into Aramaic. Much of Paul's theology is Greco-Roman as is Luke's.

I myself have never seen or read any hard evidence that the gospel writers were definitively multi-lingual.

Daniel1611
July 21st, 2015, 09:16 PM
Are you referring to salvation from blood sacrifice? I certainly accept it as theology, but I don't see Jesus (or John the Baptizer) requiring a God of justice who demands blood spilled on the altar for repentance.

If Jesus' own death was required for expropriation of sin, then this notion is contradicted by the fact that he saved many from their sins long before his final journey to Jerusalem.

What do you mean by grace?

I am saved by grace, but if you are talking about a set of requirements for the idea, then you are talking about something but you are certainly not talking about grace.

All the history concerned with languages spoken in the first century says that most folks were illiterate. The only traces of other languages in the gospels are a few short sections that translate some of Jesus' words into Aramaic. Much of Paul's theology is Greco-Roman as is Luke's.

I myself have never seen or read any hard evidence that the gospel writers were definitively multi-lingual.

Your rejection of Christ's blood sacrifice us why I consider you unsaved. You reject the most fundamental doctrine of Christianity.

Further, whatever your assertions about the illiterate are, they don't apply to the NT authors. They were obviously not illiterate. I'm not sure what to make if that nonsense. We're talking about writers and you bring up the illiterate.

Caino
July 22nd, 2015, 05:08 AM
The scriptures actually say they are inspired by God, not man.

2 Timothy 3:16-17 NASB.

2 Timothy wasn't scripture when the author wrote that.....and he or some think she, was talking about the Old Testament. Followers of Paul made his words Gods words long after he died.

Caino
July 22nd, 2015, 05:11 AM
Your rejection of Christ's blood sacrifice us why I consider you unsaved. You reject the most fundamental doctrine of Christianity.

Further, whatever your assertions about the illiterate are, they don't apply to the NT authors. They were obviously not illiterate. I'm not sure what to make if that nonsense. We're talking about writers and you bring up the illiterate.

But Jesus wasn't the founder of Christianity, so anything fundamental to that religion is irrelevant to salvation that can be found in the original, pre-cross gospel.

Daniel1611
July 22nd, 2015, 07:00 AM
But Jesus wasn't the founder of Christianity, so anything fundamental to that religion is irrelevant to salvation that can be found in the original, pre-cross gospel.

How do you know? Because ET told you? The Bible is an accurate historical record. I love how new agers fake a few quotes from Jesus and say it's true, but not the rest. How do you know any of it is true then? I usually try not to engage new agers because i used to hang out with a lot of them and I know they're new age garbage, taking bits and pieces from every religion.

Caino
July 22nd, 2015, 07:08 AM
How do you know? Because ET told you? The Bible is an accurate historical record. I love how new agers fake a few quotes from Jesus and say it's true, but not the rest. How do you know any of it is true then? I usually try not to engage new agers because i used to hang out with a lot of them and I know they're new age garbage, taking bits and pieces from every religion.

The Bible doesn't say Jesus started Christianity, his gospel was called "The Gospel of the Kingdom of Heaven". No "ET"s needed for that.

In the NT Jesus preached his original gospel to the Jews, that's not very complicated to see. But then after Paul's new message began to influence everyone's recollection of Jesus, the gospels were written.

Jesus was "new age", OT didn't like him either. That's what always happens with revelation.

Daniel1611
July 22nd, 2015, 07:20 AM
The Bible doesn't say Jesus started Christianity, his gospel was called "The Gospel of the Kingdom of Heaven". No "ET"s needed for that.

In the NT Jesus preached his original gospel to the Jews, that's not very complicated to see. But then after Paul's new message began to influence everyone's recollection of Jesus, the gospels were written.

Jesus was "new age", OT didn't like him either. That's what always happens with revelation.

Jesus also preached to gentiles. Like the romans and Samaritans.

Hawkins
July 22nd, 2015, 07:42 AM
The Bible is the word of God. All 66 books of the Bible are the word of God. The Bible is made up of 66 books. They are, and it is, the word of God. The Bible is the word of God.

Discuss.

The following link is to a thread that talks about these books and how they together are what we find in the Bible, spoken of variously. I provide it in case a reader has not received an introduction to the Bible or the books found therein.

The different ways of describing or referring to different parts of the Bible (http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=110698)

In order to maintain the consistency of the Bible, God assigned an authority as a guardian to keep His Word intact from being purposefully distorted by humans. With such an authority in place, humans in general thus will not be able to add or remove contents from the Bible at will. To put it another way, once a Canon is defined, it will be very difficult for a human to add more contents to the Bible or to remove anything from it.

Moreover, since such a human authority may go corrupted or is no longer capable of acting as a representative of God, God shifts the role of such an authority from one group of humans to another.

The OT is very well preserved by the Jews, naturally the Jews are the ones responsible for the canonization of the OT. This is mostly done before Jesus time. The Pharisees are such a guardian of the OT at Jesus time. However the Jews can no longer carry on the guardian role as they are corrupted and failed to believe in Jesus. In this case, the role shifted to the Catholics. The Catholics are thus assigned the role of canonizing the NT.

On the other hand, God foreknows there will be yet another role shift. That's why He allows the Catholics to adopt the Septuagint version of the OT instead of the already canonized Hebrew version of the OT. When the Catholics go corrupted, the role again shifts to the Protestants. God thus authenticates the Protestants to re-adopt the Hebrew OT which is formally canonized by the Jews.

That's how God authenticates His earthly Church.

Caino
July 22nd, 2015, 08:45 AM
Jesus also preached to gentiles. Like the romans and Samaritans.

Of coarse he did, but his first priority was the Jewish people who had remained faithful in anticipation of the answer to Gods promise, he preached the original gospel, he desired that his apostles and disciples remain true to his original gospel, go into all the world proclaiming the original good news. But things got a little side tracked as surely he knew they would, it's only natural, happened to the Israelites constantly.

Jacob
July 22nd, 2015, 10:45 AM
2 Timothy wasn't scripture when the author wrote that.....and he or some think she, was talking about the Old Testament. Followers of Paul made his words Gods words long after he died.Are you familiar with this?

2 Peter 3:14-16 NASB - 14 Therefore, beloved, since you look for these things, be diligent to be found by Him in peace, spotless and blameless, 15 and regard the patience of our Lord as salvation; just as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given him, wrote to you, 16 as also in all his letters, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which the untaught and unstable distort, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction.

Jacob
July 22nd, 2015, 10:46 AM
In order to maintain the consistency of the Bible, God assigned an authority as a guardian to keep His Word intact from being purposefully distorted by humans. With such an authority in place, humans in general thus will not be able to add or remove contents from the Bible at will. To put it another way, once a Canon is defined, it will be very difficult for a human to add more contents to the Bible or to remove anything from it.

Moreover, since such a human authority may go corrupted or is no longer capable of acting as a representative of God, God shifts the role of such an authority from one group of humans to another.

The OT is very well preserved by the Jews, naturally the Jews are the ones responsible for the canonization of the OT. This is mostly done before Jesus time. The Pharisees are such a guardian of the OT at Jesus time. However the Jews can no longer carry on the guardian role as they are corrupted and failed to believe in Jesus. In this case, the role shifted to the Catholics. The Catholics are thus assigned the role of canonizing the NT.

On the other hand, God foreknows there will be yet another role shift. That's why He allows the Catholics to adopt the Septuagint version of the OT instead of the already canonized Hebrew version of the OT. When the Catholics go corrupted, the role again shifts to the Protestants. God thus authenticates the Protestants to re-adopt the Hebrew OT which is formally canonized by the Jews.

That's how God authenticates His earthly Church.I don't know that you are right in how you see this.

Do you know about the Hebrew Bible, the TaNaKh?

Dan Emanuel
July 22nd, 2015, 11:12 AM
A bishop is a pastor...Correct.

...Someone that pastors a church is a bishop...Some who pastor a church are bishop's, and some are presbyter's. Bishop's are hierarchically superior to presbyter's (and to deacon's), because it take's a bishop to ordain a presbyter (or a deacon). Presbyter's cannot ordain presbyter's or deacon's.

...These Bishops not preaching from the apocrypha as divinely inspired was their part in them being removed.They're were no bishop's "not preaching from the [Greek Old Testament] as divinely inspired." They're were no bishop's involved in that. Martin Luther was a presbyter.


Daniel

HisServant
July 22nd, 2015, 11:23 AM
Correct.
Some who pastor a church are bishop's, and some are presbyter's. Bishop's are hierarchically superior to presbyter's (and to deacon's), because it take's a bishop to ordain a presbyter (or a deacon). Presbyter's cannot ordain presbyter's or deacon's.
They're were no bishop's "not preaching from the [Greek Old Testament] as divinely inspired." They're were no bishop's involved in that. Martin Luther was a presbyter.


Daniel

That is the anglican understanding... and the bias that is present in the KJV.

I've always held that in the Hebrew and Greek, the same word is used in most instances that were arbitrarily translated due to the politics of the Anglican church.

Bishop, elder and pastor seem to be interchangeable in the early languages with the slight difference being their gifts which do not have any bearing on their primacy.

Dan Emanuel
July 22nd, 2015, 11:23 AM
The ONLY reason they split was the Pope would not give Henry another annulment or divorce so he could marry another.I think that the proximate cause is the idea the Divine Right of King's (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Divine_right_of_kings), which developed out of the Reformation.


Daniel

Dan Emanuel
July 22nd, 2015, 11:26 AM
That is the anglican understanding... and the bias that is present in the KJV.

I've always held that in the Hebrew and Greek, the same word is used in most instances that were arbitrarily translated due to the politics of the Anglican church.

Bishop, elder and pastor seem to be interchangeable in the early languages with the slight difference being their gifts which do not have any bearing on their primacy.The development of the Church hierarchy began early, and it make's sense that not just any presbyter could ordain new presbyter's, doesn't it? They're must have been a hierarchy in order for someone to ordain new presbyter's. And when local church's got too large to meet and take communion and celebrate the Mass all in 1 place together, they're arose a need for pastor's of these smaller parish's, who all are subject to the supreme pastor of the given area, the bishop.


Daniel

HisServant
July 22nd, 2015, 11:28 AM
I think that the proximate cause is the idea the Divine Right of King's (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Divine_right_of_kings), which developed out of the Reformation.


Daniel

That was developed through Roman Catholicism... the reformation was pretty much anti royalty and there were notes in the margins of the Geneva Bible that called into question the divine rights of royalty. King James hated that the Geneva Bible with such a passion that it was a driving force in his order for his own translation of the bible and prohibited any notes in the margins that would question the divine rights of kings.

HisServant
July 22nd, 2015, 11:31 AM
The development of the Church hierarchy began early, and it make's sense that not just any presbyter could ordain new presbyter's, doesn't it? They're must have been a hierarchy in order for someone to ordain new presbyter's. And when local church's got too large to meet and take communion and celebrate the Mass all in 1 place together, they're arose a need for pastor's of these smaller parish's, who all are subject to the supreme pastor of the given area, the bishop.


Daniel

This kind of removes the Holy Spirits involvement in the church and places it squarely in the realm of politics... which is why it has been so messed up over the centuries.

I've always maintained that the congregation has always had the right to give and take away authority according to the leading of the Holy Spirit. Even when the original apostles appointed elders and sent them to different congregations they always gave the congregation the task to examine them and possibly refuse them if they were unacceptable.

It all comes down to the servant leader example that Christ and the Apostles... along with the command to never lord their authority over anyone.